Battle for the sky

After the end of World War II, the Armed Forces of the USSR surpassed all other armies in the world in number, quantity tanks, artillery and many other parameters. However, the USSR had one, but a very significant drawback - the lack of a jet fighter. So, in the UK, such fighters appeared in 1944, and in the United States a year later. The Soviet Union managed to create a full-fledged jet fighter only at the end of 1947, it became the MiG-15.

Curious story create this aircraft. For several years, Soviet engineers tried to create a fighter jet based on captured German YuMO and BMW engines, but the resulting Yak-15 and MiG-9 aircraft were significantly inferior to their American counterparts, and after the F-86 Saber fighter aircraft appeared in the United States, their fate was finally resolved. The United Kingdom provided unexpected assistance to the Country of Soviets by agreeing to sell Rolls-Royce’s jet engines Dervent and Nin. A slightly upgraded version of the latter, and became the base engine for the MiG-15.

It is not known what exactly pushed the British to sell engines, but in this way they coolly set up their American allies, who during the war in Korea (1950-1953) experienced the full strength and power of the fifteenth MiGs. According to official Soviet statistics, during the entire war in Korea, the MiG-15 destroyed 1106 enemy aircraft, losing only 335. Having realized that their aircraft were inferior to the Soviet ones, the United States hastily developed the world's first F-supersonic fighter 100 Super Saber, which already in 1954 entered service with the US Air Force. However, the MiG designers in the same year presented to the public and their supersonic fighter Mig-19, thus preserving the approximate equality between the air forces of the two countries. This ended the story of the first generation fighters and begins the golden era of jet fighter aviation.

The first Soviet aircraft of the second generation was the MiG-1957 launched in the 21 year, by the way the most massive supersonic fighter in world history (more than 10 thousands of aircraft were built). It was exported to more than 20 countries of the world, and in some even still in service. He proved himself very well in the early years of the Vietnam War, as he was much lighter, and therefore more maneuverable than American fighters. But despite this, the MiG-21 had significant drawbacks: there were only 2 missiles in its arsenal, and even those were suitable for close combat. Therefore, after the appearance of the multipurpose F-4 Phantom II fighter in the US Air Force, the majority of forces went over to the Americans. A typical example of how far Phantom II exceeded the Mig-21, is the case that occurred in the 1973 year on the Soviet border. One of the Phantoms invaded the airspace of the USSR and the MiG of Captain Eliseev was lifted to destroy it. To no avail, firing both their missiles at the border intruder, Yeliseyev found only one way to stop the Phantom - this is a ram. Up to this point, none of the pilots of jet fighters did not use the tactics of the ram, Eliseev was the first and died as a result. Later, many problems of the MiG-21 were eliminated in its subsequent modifications, but still this fighter no longer met many modern requirements, since the United States already had new, third-generation aircraft.

Tightening with the release and modernization of the MiG-21, we again found ourselves in the role of catch-up. True, after a few years, the USSR was also able to make up for the release of a third generation fighter-interceptor MiG-25, as well as MiG-23, but too much time had already been lost. By this time, the United States already had fourth-generation fighter jets - the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Falcon, and the difference between the two generations of aircraft our pilots could feel during the conflicts in the Middle East, and the difference was significant.

Soviet designers needed to perform a real miracle in order not only to catch up with the Americans, but also to try to beat them a few steps ahead. And such a miracle happened in the middle of 80-ies, the Air Force received two ultra-modern fighters at the time - the Su-27 and MiG-29. By all indications, these aircraft exceeded their foreign counterparts. Their most important difference was the amazing aerodynamics, even now, after 30 years they can get into the air such aerobatics that are not available to many modern aircraft. At the moment, it is these fighters that make up the backbone of the fighter aviation of Russia and reliably protect the borders of our homeland.

After such a success, the designers did not stop and began work on the creation of a fifth-generation fighter, and there is no doubt that if the USSR had not collapsed, it would have been developed by the middle of the 90s. And we would be so much ahead of the United States that it was no longer possible to catch up with us. However, something happened that happened, and Russia, as the successor of the USSR, was again in the role of catching up. The United States already has a fifth-generation fighter, the F-22 Raptor, and we are only developing it, and the results are not very impressive so far. Thus, we again found ourselves in a similar situation, as in the middle of 40's, but we really want to believe that for a while.

Comments

[klimpopov]

I read it, and the beginning seemed to intrigue, but then it somehow became unclear and one question arose after reading "So what?" ...

, and we are only developing it, and the results so far are not very impressive.

Verbatim - although they may not personally impress the author, I really ...

[Vadivak]

Quote: //

The United Kingdom provided unexpected assistance to the Country of Soviets, agreeing to sell the Rolls-Royce jet engines Dervent and Nin.

Come on, quite expected, for money in the west you could buy anything, even Churchill even an atomic bomb

[klimpopov]

It’s hard not to agree, however, as we have now ...

[Chern]

clearly not without Soviet intelligence ...

[postman]

Quote: Vadivak

for money in the west you could buy anything

A little bit wrong
"Nin" and "Derwent" were no longer secret and licenses for their production were sold to a number of countries.
Nene saved the time of creating a more powerful domestic VK-1 engine

Derwent for "174ТК"

Moreover, the de facto sale occurred when the RAF still flew on piston.
..... Britain is poorer after 2MB

Prime Minister Clement Attlee made a compromise, endorsed the sale of engines, but not airplanes (September 26, 1946): "I see no reason to refuse to supply (engines) to the USSR, because refusal will only be a cause for concern and suspicion."

Result:
In April 1951, Clarence Brown, a congressman from Ohio, announced that a downed MiG-15 was found to be equipped with an engine — an exact copy of those supplied by the British to the Russians.

[Professor]

After such success, the designers did not stop and began work on creating a fifth-generation fighter, and there is no doubt that if the USSR did not collapse, then by the mid-90s it would have been developed. And we would be so far ahead of the USA that it was no longer realistic to catch up with us.

Absolutely unfounded statements.

[Dr. Pilyulkin]

Quote: professor

Absolutely unfounded statements.

And the author knows this very well. Otherwise, I would not have been hiding behind an obscure nickname.

[Evrepid]

it is not true that this could not be.

[Vadivak]

Quote: professor

Absolutely unfounded statements.

Oleg maybe the author meant MiG 1.42 "?

[Professor]

I do not agree, MiG took to the air in the 2000th year, let’s say they would have lifted it in 1990, and so what? How would Americans hopelessly lag behind if their Raptor took off in 1997? And in general, the author did not confuse much who was catching up with whom ...

[Vadivak]

Quote: professor

MiG took off in the 2000th year

Of course, he turned this about hopelessness, but they really could overtake. The first drawings for the “product 5-12” were released in 1986, and the Americans in October 1986 only determined the winners of the tender, and then you know everything collapsed but still In 1994, the project underwent six editions, four of which were tested on flying models. so I think I could really overtake something and a 5-generation car in parts would have

[Professor]

IMHO for the 5th generation of stealth is not enough.

[Rus_87]

The first Soviet second-generation aircraft was the MiG-1957 launched in 21, by the way the most massive supersonic fighter in world history (more than 10 thousand aircraft were built). It was exported to more than 20 countries, and in some even it still is in service. It worked very well in the early years of the Vietnam War, as it was much easier, and therefore more maneuverable than American fighters.

Actually, in the first years of the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese flew on our MiG-15s, MiG-17s of various modifications, the MiG-21 appeared much later, after it turned out that the 15th and 17th were not able to fight on equal terms more advanced Phantoms.

but still, this fighter did not meet many modern requirements, since the United States already had a new, third generation aircraft

Author, call me at least one 3rd generation US plane? No?
And PATAMUSHTA everyone knows that the amers of the 3rd generation didn’t have, they immediately jumped to the 4th!
PySy
It seems that the article was written by a person who is not very knowledgeable in aviation, simply put as an amateur. Excuse me, comrades, for being too rude

[Avenger711]

F-4 can be considered as the third.

[Rus_87]

You can take it as you like, but the F-4 Phantom is the plane of the SECOND generation, it does not reach the 3rd. Yes, there were modernizations, including avionics, and weapons, but this makes him the 3rd generation. There we have the option of upgrading the MiG-21-93, so now we will consider the MiG-21 4th generation aircraft?

[tomket]

and what are the criteria for the third generation ???? if the fifth on vskidka is cruising supersound, stealth, what are the third ??? I recall only the absence of guns, and hope for missile weapons, that's all

[speedy]

For the third generation, you can count the F-111, but this is not a fighter ...

[pinecone]

Empty article.

[Mista_dj]

You can find fault with the details. but in general the article is correct: if the USSR had not collapsed, everything would have been somewhat different.
Thanks to MS Gorbachev! Exactly Um!
I handed over the country for a party and flags along the route of my motorcade ...

[Sirocco]

I repeat this comment. But still. I ask you not to forget the fact that the United States has risen to today's rating thanks to the 1st and 2nd World Wars, that really is for whom the stepmother’s war, and to whom the mother is dear. So many human and material losses, like the USSR, have not been suffered by any country participating in these wars. After such a war, losses and devastation, with the dirty tricks of the West, we were able to get on our feet and achieve such results. In order not to be destroyed.

[Beck]

That’s why such damp articles are written? Like, everything is fine. Yes, not a fig good. Their Raptor has been flying in combat units for 20 years, and the T-50 has only just run through the lolos.

Of course you can turn it on, you always want it, but you also need to know the measure. The author advertises figures for the Korean War.

"MiG-15 destroyed 1106 enemy aircraft, while losing only 335" And it is not known how many of these 1106 bombers and how many Saber-F-86 fighters.

According to averaged data, the ratio was 2 to 1 in favor of the Sabers. Since Sabers had advantages:

1. the use of a radio range finder, which made it possible to hit the enemy with high accuracy. At the same time, only an optical sight was installed on the Mig-15.
2. Installing larger than the Miga brake flaps.
3. reticle with indicator on the windshield.
4. much better cab visibility.
5. advantage in horizontal maneuverability. Despite the fact that the MiG-15 had a large ceiling and climb, the maximum horizontal speed was no higher than that of the F-86, which did not allow it to quickly move away from the pursuit.
6. The use of an anti-loading suit.
7. the mass of volley and the speed of 6 heavy machine guns with an ammunition of 1800 patrins, on Sabra, in relation to two 23 mm cannons with ammunition of 80 shells per barrel at Mig.

.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Beck

That’s why such damp articles are written? Like, everything is fine. Yes, not a fig good. Their Raptor has been flying in combat units for 20 years, and the T-50 has only just run through the lolos.

I want to emphasize that it does not fly, because US pilots are afraid to fly this RAW car. Too often die on this super wheelbarrow Yes, and I advise you to watch the movie Alley of Migov, made in the USA. There, young pilots in the first sortie, crush Soviet aces of the last World War II like seeds. This is the pinnacle of lies from the USA. It would be so bad MIGs would not drag yourself to you from overseas these machines. Something like this ---------------- American pilots refuse to fly F-22 Raptor fighters due to hypoxia, which leads to the problem of oxygen generation on the ship. Similar problems on this combat vehicle have been observed for four years.

Pilots of the US Air Force are not even embarrassed that refusals from flights can lead to reprimand or dismissal. Currently, 200 aviators have access to flying on this fighter.

According to Air Force spokesman Major Brandon Lingle, the Ministry of Defense does not yet have accurate information on the number of pilots who refused to fly pilots. It is also unknown on which bases the indicated incidents were observed.

Retired General Richard Hawley, who flew on the F-15 and commanded the air combat service at Langley Airbase in Virginia, said that during his 35-year career he had never seen a fighter pilot refuse to fly. (Http: // www. dni.ru/society/2012/5/3/232706.html)

[Beck]

Quote: Sirocco

I want to emphasize does not fly,

Not that it does not fly, but was suspended to find out the reasons for some failures - widespread practice.

Alley of Migov. And on MiGs, besides the aces of war, young people flew. And on Sabers, apart from the young, the aces of war flew.

A competing country wants to get any enemy equipment to study and identify weaknesses. Russia, too, was not opposed to getting the Raptor or the F-35 into its own hands. The usual practice of potential adversaries.

[Denis]

Quote: Beck

Their Raptor has been flying in combat units for 20 years

Everything is so cloudy with him, as was the case with the super-invisible F-117. To know how much% there is a enemy, what, what, and they know how

[Beck]

Quote: Denis

Everything is so cloudy with him, as was the case with the super-invisible F-117. To know how much% there is a enemy, what, what, and they know how

Let's say. Suppose even a big one. Their raptors make up 50%. But we don’t have a ghost either. We do not have a flying object (according to the latest technologies) in combat units, so that we could proudly lie.

And in general, than to scoff at nothing, it’s better to bite the bullet and do, without a lie, better than theirs. This will be a worthy answer, and not an empty flash.

[chuckling]

+ = - ...
There is no such thing as a perfect weapon, enough to smack nonsense. It all depends on the human factor. Correct use of technical, tactical and technological advantages is the guarantee of VICTORY. + in the modern world - political WILL. A broom is stronger than a vine. Comparison of weapons in local conflicts, of course, + -but only benefits as a run-in in real conditions - that is, he took a shot. Plus the elimination of "childhood diseases". ARMY SHOULD be a cohesive organism that solves specific tasks.

[OneMoreDay]

So, in the UK, such fighters appeared in 1944, and in the United States a year later. The Soviet Union managed to create a full-fledged jet fighter only at the end of 1947, it became the MiG-15

Either miracle birds were immediately born in the west, or there is no need to talk about the MiG-15, and even anticipating "only"

[AlexMH]

In fact, the losses at the Migs and Sabers were about the same (if you do not take into account a bunch of shot down American bombers :)). Aircraft were approximately equivalent, Mig better at altitude and in vertical maneuver, Saber - at the ground and in horizontal. Mig has better weapons, Saber has a scope. Etc. But none of these benefits were overwhelming. By the way, our best ace Pepelyaev shot down more Americans in Korea than THEIR best ace :). Yes, but the statistics of those shot down should be divided by 2, among the Americans - by 3 (due to their stupid snobbery), and among the Japanese - by 2 by the world’s 6. We note that in Korea the Americans were catching up, their F-80 planes and The F-84s were unable to fight the MiG-15, and they had to urgently expand the production of Sabers and drag them all off the assembly line to Korea.

[Fitter65]

At the expense of the ratio of those shot down in Korea, comrades from the United States claim that they shot down more than 2000, losing only 114 of their own. However, summing up the results of that war, their MSS service said that they had saved, in one edition it says "more than 1000 pilots", in another it is written more "1000 crews." These are only those who were saved, but how many of them were taken prisoner and died?
Knowing that it was impossible for us to cross the coastline, the Americans used it, the planes that fell into the sea were not considered ours shot down, unless the pilot was captured, and the Americans wrote him lost for technical reasons.
By the way, the aerial battle that was held by Captain S.A. Fedorets on April 15.04.1953, 2, having shot down one saber, he was attacked by the second one piloted by J. McConnell. Amerikos hit the cockpit, the MiG twitched, typical behavior of an airplane with a killed pilot, But not in this case. Fedorets was slightly injured, leveling the plane he he put the queue on McConnell's plane. The American ejected and was saved. But it was more interesting, the guards of the shot-down American piled on the damaged MiG, and the three of them ejected it. And now ATTENTION: Macedon counted the downing of Fedorets, although in fact he didn’t knock him down. Also counted according to the MiG and his followers + 19 more. 1953 not confirmed victory. McConnell 7. Although minus one 1%, he didn’t bring down Fedorets in fact ...

[Fitter65]

And in terms of armament, often 6 Saber machine guns were not enough to destroy the MiG-15, they returned with damage often, But a salvo of two 23mm and one 37mm cannons standing on the MiG-15 was enough to scatter the saiber in Korea.

[Alf]

Quote: Beck

According to averaged data, the ratio was 2 to 1 in favor of Sabers

If you copy WIKI, then at least figure out what is written there.
"Recent research by the RAND Corporation showed that during the Korean War, the ratio of the number of aircraft shot down in air battles between F-86s and MiGs (piloted by Soviet pilots) was 1,8: 1, and more likely 1,3: 1 [5 ]. "
"It is not known what exactly pushed the British to sell engines, but in this way they pretty much set up their American allies,"
If you remember how many times the amers substituted their allies, then, as they say, "the payment of debt is red."

[Beck]

Quote: Alf

If you copy WIKI, then at least figure out what is written there

So there is a lot of things written and absurd also about 2000 shot down and the ratio of shot down Mig 700 Seyber 70. From there I took only the advantages of Saber. And I read 2 to 1 somewhere in other sources, and I think this is the most truthful ratio.

[tomket]

I've read in some sources how a Chinese pilot on La-9 drove a group of "Sabers" into a defensive circle, and what, shall we believe everything written ????

[Proud.]

"... The Soviet Union managed to create a full-fledged jet fighter only at the end of 1947, it was the MiG-15 ..." According to the calculations of all kinds of "foreign" economists, the USSR should have needed at least 20 years to restore the Country, after a terrible The restoration of the entire infrastructure (social sector, industry, etc., etc.), demographic revival, in the end ... ONLY FOR RESTORATION! And here, ON YOU, only after 2 years a ready-made jet fighter, not inferior to foreign What the hell ...

[Fitter65]

Quote: Beck

From there I took only the benefits of Saber. And I read 2 to 1 somewhere in other sources, and I think this is the most truthful ratio.

This is the correct approach: we take the advantages of one, in this case Saber, the disadvantages of the other, the MiG-15, and we get a picture of the complete superiority of advanced American technology over the backward "Asians".
And if on the other hand? Then the Saber generally sucks. And if you count how many Sabers fell due to "... pilots mistakes", this is the picture in general. The plane is rubbish, so the pilots were no good at all, In almost every combat sortie, several planes were raided. True, the enemy's pilots were even worse, even if they were sometimes shot down by those who could not fly. The MiG Alley got its name from the fact that there MiGs were given to the USAF.

[Beck]

Quote: Fitter65

And if the turnover?

My opinion. Saber and Mig-15 aircraft of equal value. But in some respects, Sebr is superior to Mig and not in the sense that Mig has a speed of, for example, 500 km and Saber 1000. The difference is small. In other parameters, Mig is superior to Saber. But the sum of these parameters gives Saber some advantage.

Do not want to admit the obvious is your business. You can also not recognize that the western aircraft industry has always been ahead. And this is a disaster, not malice. Generally. The Mig-21 was created to catch up with Saber. Mig-23 to catch up with the Phantom. MiG-29 and Su-27 to catch up with the F-15 and F-16. The T-50 is created to catch up with the Raptor and the F-35. And it would be best for Russia to create the first 6-generation fighter in an unmanned version. Let them catch up. Then there will be no empty pull-ups and pull-ups. The Russian 6th generation fighter will definitely not be the best, but for some time it will be the only one.

[berimor]

For the lag in combat aviation, I must say a huge "THANKS" to the corn-maker Khrushchev. It was with his submission that many promising design bureaus were closed, planes were cut, funding for research and development in combat aviation was sharply cut, and aviation itself was lowered below the belt. The USSR then lagged behind in aircraft construction by 10 !!! years. You illiterate bastard !!!

[rJIiOK]

I do not agree with the author - the tests of our 5 generation fighter are just very impressive

[Mista_dj]

rJIiOK,
Who !?
And let me ask what is impressive?

[Fitter65]

Quote: Beck

So who would argue, the planes are equivalent. It’s just that our pilots were always better. With our huyovye mass media. With such a PR action like s, we would be higher than the universe ...

[Alf]

Quote: Beck

Mig-21 was created to catch up with Saber

Well, well ... I haven’t laughed like that for a long time. Usually, if they are doing something catching up, then it is catching up better, but not at times. MIG speed = 2100, Saber speed = 1100, Saber weapons — heavy machine guns and the complete absence of guided missiles; the MIG has an automatic gun and guided missiles. These are aircraft of different generations.

Quote: Beck

Quote: Alf
If you copy WIKI, then at least figure out what is written there

So there is a lot of things written and absurd also about 2000 shot down and the ratio of shot down Mig 700 Seyber 70. From there I took only the advantages of Saber. And I read 2 to 1 somewhere in other sources, and I think this is the most truthful ratio.

Yeah, the text is one to one.
Besides, what are you changing flags like that?

[Beck]

Quote: Alf

Well, well ... I haven’t laughed like that for a long time.

For some reason, some believe that if they laugh, someone should shrink from shame. It’s funny - laugh, from this the air of Russia will not be stronger. So you can make fun of everything.

Quote: Alf

MIG speed = 2100, Saber speed = 1100, weapons

Read carefully before laughing. I did not compare the saber with the Mig-21 at a speed of 2300, but with the Mig15 and 17 at a speed of 1000 km per hour. And I wrote - to catch up, not only in terms of speed, but mainly in terms of performance characteristics. So they created to replace the Mig-15 Mig-21 which was superior to Saber. But the amer appeared frntom. In terms of performance characteristics, the Phantom was superior to the Mig-21, and so, to catch up with it, the Mig-23 was created. And further.

Quote: Alf

Yeah, the text is one to one.

To write more comments, you can and should look at the wiki. An erudite person will discard awkward information and take only the real. Do not go to the library and give comments through three days, when the topic of the site has already been changed.

Quote: Alf

Besides, what are you changing flags like that?

And why did you stick to the flag? What do you want to accuse me of some kind of political catastrophe due to my cheers! Miserable such urges.

Ask ADMINS why flags change. It is their prerogative to put flags. And they themselves also have no reason to change anything. This is most likely a program malfunction. Or are you ready to call me imperialist. Well, well, God help your absurd fantasies.

[Alf]

They poured a lot of water, but did not say anything, they simply confirmed what I said.
Wow, now the admins are to blame. I respect the Americans, everyone is to blame, except for themselves.
Quote: Beck
Mig-21 was created to catch up with Saber
Read carefully before laughing. I did not compare the saber with the Mig-21 at a speed of 2300, but with the Mig15 and 17 at a speed of 1000 km per hour. And I wrote - to catch up, not only in terms of speed, but mainly in terms of performance characteristics. So they created to replace the Mig-15 Mig-21 which was superior to Saber. But the amer appeared frntom. In terms of performance characteristics, the Phantom was superior to the Mig-21, and so, to catch up with it, the Mig-23 was created. And further.
Do you understand what you are writing?