How not to make shells, or the Russian 305-mm land mine mod. 1894

347
How not to make shells, or the Russian 305-mm land mine mod. 1894

We continue the theme of domestic twelve-inch shells.

High-explosive 305-mm projectile mod. 1894


A lot has already been said about the tragedy with domestic high-explosive shells from the era of the Russian-Japanese War, including by me. We managed to provide the fleet with 305-mm high-explosive shells with a pitifully small amount of explosives, which was aggravated by the inability to equip them with pyroxylin.

At the same time, the shells were deprived of instantaneous fuses, which is why they did not explode upon impact with water, making it difficult to target at long distances. And at such distances it was necessary to shoot at the Russian-Japanese - this was throw-over fire at the Japanese battleships, which had taken the fashion of shelling the inner harbor of Port Arthur, and the first phase of the battle at Shantung.



At the same time, the relatively low-quality steel from which these shells were made did not allow them to be considered as a subtype of armor-piercing ammunition.

Why are there so few explosives?


As you know, the Rudnitsky plant, “which had the opportunity to study the production of shells of this kind abroad,” in 1889 presented to the MTK 6-dm high-explosive steel “bombs” with an explosive content of 18 to 22,5% of the total mass of the loaded projectile. The “Attitude of the Naval Technical Committee to the Chairman of the Investigative Commission in the Case of the Tsushima Battle” describes a heartbreaking story the inability of the domestic industry to produce high-quality steel, which was required to produce such projectiles:

“But in the further progress of the matter, it turned out that our factories, both state-owned and private, due to the state of their projectile equipment, find it difficult to produce steel of the same high quality as in Rudnitsky’s projectiles, and limiting ourselves to this one plant, due to its low productivity, It did not seem economically possible, due to the large number of shells to be manufactured.”

Therefore, they created a simpler drawing, in which the projectile had an explosive content of only 7,7% of the total weight of the projectiles. But, since the factories could not cope with this task, they reduced the payload weight to (on average) 3,5%.

Here, of course, the question arises: why did Russia know how to make steel for high-quality armor-piercing shells, but could not make it for high-explosive shells?

For a long time, guided by the above “Attitude,” I was confident that steel for armor-piercing projectiles should differ in quality from steel for high-explosive projectiles. But, as it recently turned out, I was wrong, if not completely, then at least partially.

Professor E. A. Berkalov in his work “Design of Naval Artillery Shells” indicates:

“... using projectile steel and its processing during this period, we were already able to achieve very high results, which is why the thickness of the walls at the bottom of high-explosive projectiles of that time could not be explained by the low technical qualities of projectile steel. Apparently, the “cheapness” of manufacturing these shells from low-quality materials and an extremely simple design was the only reason for their adoption into combat supplies in addition to a set of armor-piercing shells, which were given primary importance. Since, it would seem, having high-grade steel produced for armor-piercing projectiles, it would be possible to design a high-explosive steel projectile ... significantly more effective in terms of high explosiveness.”

Price issue


And indeed, in “Calculation No. 1 of the cost of shells and other items in the amount of half of the second combat kit for ships sailing to the Pacific Ocean” we read:

– the price of an armor-piercing 305-mm projectile is 535 rubles. 80 kop. (without charge cost and, as far as I understand, without fuse);

– the price of a high-explosive 305-mm projectile is 155 rubles. 00 kop.

Accordingly, assuming that a high-explosive projectile made of high-grade steel will not differ in price from an armor-piercing one (and only a few percent less steel is used for it), we find that the savings on one projectile amounted to 380 rubles. 80 kop. What economies of scale will this provide? fleet?

Unfortunately, the situation with the ammunition of our battleships is not entirely clear. In the 80s of the 18th century, it was 18 armor-piercing, 18 high-explosive steel, 4 cast iron, 2 segment and 60 grapeshot shells, and a total of 305 shells per 40 mm/1889 gun. But in 1901 it was decided to remove cast iron shells from service. The implementation of this decision was delayed - for example, the Pacific Squadron excluded cast iron shells from ammunition only in 18 (they were returned to the war, but more on that later). The squadron battleships leaving for Tsushima each had 36 armor-piercing, 6 high-explosive steel and 305 segmental XNUMX-mm shells per gun.

But still, according to some data, the fleet sought a different composition, namely: 27 armor-piercing, 27 high-explosive steel and 6 segment projectiles. This is not at all surprising, since it was the armor-piercing projectile that was relied upon as the main type of ammunition in the Russian Imperial Navy.

In any case, the number of steel armor-piercing and high-explosive shells was supposed to be 54 shells per gun, but in fact only 18 armor-piercing shells were made from high-quality steel. The difference is 36 shells for one gun and 144 for the ammunition load for a squadron battleship. But one ship was entitled to two ammunition loads. Accordingly, the use of cheap high-explosive shells saved 54 rubles. 832 kopecks for ammunition and 20 rubles. 109 kopecks - on a battleship.

Profit!

Agree that for our Naval Ministry of those years, which managed not to find 70 rubles for testing new steel armor-piercing and high-explosive shells “to determine their destructive effect,” a saving of more than 000 thousand rubles, and not one-time, but for each new one under construction The battleship is just some kind of fairy tale!

True, as a result, our sailors had to fight with shells containing less than 15 pounds of smokeless powder, while the Japanese “suitcases” were equipped with approximately 100 pounds of “shimoza”.


But not in rubles alone


However, in fairness, it should be admitted that the heavy Russian high-explosive shell became a victim not only of domestic stinginess, but also of the general concept of naval combat, as it was seen then.

At the end of the 25th century, when our best battleships that fought in the Russo-Japanese war were being designed, no one was going to arrange “shooting battles” at distances exceeding 30–15 cables. The distance of a decisive battle was supposed to be 20–20 cables, or even less. But at the same 229 cables, the domestic armor-piercing projectile should have confidently penetrated 15 mm Krupp armor, and at 305 cables - even XNUMX mm, which was still hard to find on battleships of those years.

Consequently, according to the tacticians of those years, it was armor-piercing shells that should have become the means of inflicting decisive damage at the main battle distances. The role of high-explosive shells was limited to only short-term shelling of enemy ships until they converged with ours within the same 15–20 cables, as well as to perform, although important, but still secondary tasks, such as shelling coastal targets.

Thus, the high-explosive projectile seemed, rather, to be an auxiliary ammunition, which is why saving on it could be considered quite advisable.

This point of view is fully confirmed by the fact that work on improving armor-piercing shells in Russia was carried out very, very intensively. At the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries, many tests were carried out with “Makarov” tips - in contrast to testing the effectiveness of the armor-piercing effect of armor-piercing shells, the Navy Ministry found money for this. In addition, in accordance with the established rules, the armor-piercing qualities of the shells were checked by actual firing - for each batch fired.

But nothing like that happened with high-explosive shells.

It is interesting that, on the one hand, the MTK understood perfectly well that the high-explosive projectile mod. 1894 is essentially not such, which is why “there was no reason to assign a particularly sensitive tube to these shells, and they were equipped with double shock tubes,” that is, the same fuses as armor-piercing ones.

On the other hand, high-explosive shells were not subject to tests for armor penetration. E. A. Berkalov managed to find only a single case of testing a 305-mm land mine (without explosives), which took place on July 23, 1904. One shot was fired with a deflection of 25 degrees. from normal to 305 mm armor plate, hardened using the Krupp method. At the same time, the projectile speed on the armor was 2 f./sec. or almost 594 m/s, that is, almost muzzle.

As a result, a 24-inch plug was knocked out in the slab, but, unfortunately, E. A. Berkalov did not indicate what happened to the projectile. Most likely it collapsed. The respected professor only stated that he had no idea about the purpose of such a test, since “such an experiment, of course, could not illustrate how the said projectile would act at actual impact speeds and in loaded form.”

Our sailors, again, had to pay for the installation of the “double shock” tube. It can be assumed that if the large-caliber shells of the 1st Pacific Squadron had exploded when falling into the water, then in the battle on July 28 it would have been much easier for our artillerymen to adjust fire on the Japanese battleships while they were fighting at long distances.

But why was it necessary to save on shells at all?

A few words in defense of the Navy Ministry


The construction and equipping of a fleet is a complex process in which many ministries, departments, industrial enterprises, etc. are involved. When assessing certain decisions of the Ministry of Transport and Communications, one must take into account the environment in which the Maritime Ministry had to work in those years.

On the one hand, it was necessary to build a fleet, and urgently. For this, money was needed. But progress flew forward by leaps and bounds, the ships literally became obsolete on the stocks. You can make an estimate for a shipbuilding program for several years in advance, but closer to its completion, the cost of warships will be completely different from what was calculated. But the budget will remain the same, and it will be necessary to go with an outstretched hand, asking for extra-budgetary allocations.

But the Ministry of Finance, represented by S. Yu. Witte, was not at all ready to respond sensitively to the needs and desires of the fleet. The most egregious case is well known: when the deadline for the completion of the new shipbuilding program “For the needs of the Far East,” approved by the Emperor in 1898, was, at the insistence of the Ministry of Finance, shifted from the end of 1902 to the beginning of 1905. Due to the fact that the Ministry of Finance believed that Japan, against which the program was oriented, would produce its fleet for war no earlier than 1905.

And here is another example.

There is a known letter signed by Vice Admiral Avelan dated July 19, 1900, addressed to the Minister of Finance S. Yu. Witte. It began like this: “Dear Sir, Sergei Yulievich. Currently, the fleet does not have a second combat set of artillery supplies...” It was further indicated that this combat set would cost the treasury 22 rubles, of which only 600 rubles were allocated. – as much as 000%! Avelan asked that same year to allocate another 1 rubles, and then 000 rubles each. annually, so that the entire amount is received before January 000, 4,4.

This application was considered at a special meeting on the issue of additional allocations to the marginal budget of the Maritime Ministry for the period 1900–1904. And it was rejected. Later they returned to her and rejected her again. According to, as was customary to write in documents of that era, the highest instructions. It is clear that this instruction was formed on the basis of reports from the Ministry of Finance, but for the Maritime Ministry this, of course, did not change anything.

As a result, of the 21,6 million funds requested by Avelan’s letter, only 1,3 million rubles were allocated in 1900 and 1,8 million rubles in 1903. It is clear that with the outbreak of hostilities, money was found in a fabulous way, and at the beginning of 1904, 10,7 million rubles were quickly found for the purchase of shells. Of course, it was already too late, even taking into account the placement of some orders abroad.

This is how it turned out that at the beginning of the war, the 1st Pacific Squadron had only one set of shells, and the second one was missing 50% of the 254-305 mm caliber, 60% of the 152 mm, and there was almost no 75 mm at all. Although there is a catch with the latter - perhaps there were still shells, but there was no gunpowder for their equipment/charges, since the reasons for their absence include the rejection of 2 pounds of gunpowder that had begun to decompose.


And you need to understand that money is only the beginning of the matter, because not everything could be solved with timely budget allocations. After all, even those shells for which we managed to place orders, we could not properly equip. Our high-explosive 305-mm shells, with which the fleet went to Tsushima, were not filled with pyroxylin, but with gunpowder.

The issue of equipping the shells of the 1st Pacific is also interesting - in the notes of V.N. Cherkasov, the artillery officer of the squadron battleship "Peresvet", it was indicated that only shells for guns with calibers of 6-dm, 8-dm and 10-dm were equipped with pyroxylin, and ammunition for twelve-inch guns and guns smaller than 152 mm had to be content with smokeless powder. The coastal guns of Port Arthur did not even have this.

It can be assumed that even in the presence of effective demand, the domestic industry still did not have time to provide the number of shells and charges we needed. What if, instead of landmines of a “simple design” made of second-rate steel, and with a minimum of explosives at that, we ordered first-class landmines from domestic enterprises? Would industry have enough resources to produce them in a timely manner?

And again, we can say that in such an occasion, the Ministry of Transport and Communications should “roll up its sleeves” and agree, as it is fashionable to say now, on a project for the production of new type projectiles, choose a private owner, help him with investments, etc. This, by the way, is very correct and state approach.

But let’s not forget that the Maritime Ministry was constantly engaged in such projects, spending significant sums on it. It was the Naval Ministry that tirelessly supported the famous Obukhov plant, paying its obligations, sponsoring the expansion of production, and ultimately finally bought it back to the treasury in 1886. Despite the fact that the plant was actually managed by representatives of the Maritime Ministry since 1865.

What could be done if the “invisible hand of the market” did not have enough strength to meet the ever-increasing demands of the Russian army and navy?

The Baltic Shipyard, which became an exemplary St. Petersburg shipbuilding enterprise, also did not keep up when it was in private hands, and was eventually purchased by the Maritime Ministry in 1894.

And the question was not only about increasing the number of ships being built, but also about developing domestic industry through localizing production in Russia. It’s not that the trio of Petropavlovsk-class battleships were “screwdriver-built”, but still the bulk of the vertical armor for them was ordered abroad, as were two of the three running gear. A completely different matter is the series of Borodino-class battleships.

In essence, the fleet was built in conditions where the costs of its creation tended to grow uncontrollably, budget allocations for agreed programs could suddenly “move to the right,” and the level of domestic industry did not meet the tasks facing it. And the Navy Ministry had to somehow balance all this in search of the best solutions.

I would especially like to note that I am infinitely far from idealizing the Navy Ministry in general and “7 pounds of august meat” in particular. And I’m absolutely not going to make them out to be victims of circumstances. Many mistakes were made, and completely unforgivable ones.

The question is not whether the Navy Ministry could, in one way or another, ensure a high level of combat training for the fleet and the quality of ammunition, even at the cost of reducing the number of ships in construction. The question is that it didn’t even make such an attempt. And the inability to find 70 thousand rubles to test the fighting qualities of the main weapons fleet - steel high-explosive and armor-piercing shells, generally does not lend itself to any censorship description.

Conclusions


Today it is absolutely obvious that saving on combat training and the quality of ammunition is absolutely unacceptable. Therefore, judging from the perspective of our time, the refusal to create an effective 305-mm high-explosive projectile looks like a stupid, unforgivable and completely inexplicable mistake.

However, if we take into account the limited solvency of the Navy Ministry, the need for savings, the tactical views of the fleet and the general level of domestic industry, this mistake, while remaining unforgivable, becomes at least understandable.

To be continued ...
347 comments
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  1. -14
    30 January 2024 05: 24
    We managed to provide the fleet with 305-mm high-explosive shells with a pitifully small amount of explosives, which was aggravated by the inability to equip them with pyroxylin.

    You don't have to read any further. Because there is great stupidity. I advise you to look
    Fedor Lisitsyn. Alexey Isaev. Russo-Japanese War
    1. +8
      30 January 2024 08: 37
      Quote: bya965
      You don't have to read any further. Because great stupidity

      This “Stupidity” is documented, which is known to anyone interested in the history of the REV enough to at least read the testimony of the Investigative Commission. Yes, I’ve published a scan of “MTK Relations even on VO how many times I’ve published it (see attached file)
      Quote: bya965
      I advise you to look
      Fedor Lisitsyn. Alexey Isaev. Russo-Japanese War

      I don't recommend it even for beginners. The number of errors scales the conceivable limits
      A simple example: Lagan “for some reason” designed the Bayan with 2 mm guns, and not with 203. The answer is that he designed it in strict accordance with the customer’s specifications. But in general, the joke is that Lisitsyn undertakes to talk about the REV without knowing the conceptual difference between the Bayan and the Japanese BRKR...
      The reasoning was that it turned out to be a Japanese shell - a record holder for armor penetration. For reference, the shell did not penetrate the armor; it knocked the plug out of it and did not penetrate inside.
      Or here is the argument that Japanese shells had a worse effect because they did not penetrate armor well. Lisitsyn does not know that Japanese shells successfully disabled our artillery without penetrating armor, and ours only when they directly hit a Japanese gun.
      1. -11
        30 January 2024 09: 21
        Oh how it hit me. So Li Si Qing is right.
        By the way, why is there so little explosive in lemon juice?
        What is a shock wave?

        During interrogation, only I asked:
        "Who is the pilot who shot me down?"

        And the slanted answered me
        Who commanded the interrogation:
        "Our pilot Li Si Tsin shot you down!"

        "You're lying to me, you slanting pig,
        in the pressure helmet I clearly heard:

        "You, Petro, will cover me,
        And Ivan will be a phantom!"
        The Soviet ace Ivan shot me down!"
        1. +5
          30 January 2024 10: 50
          Quote: bya965
          Oh how it hit me. So Li Si Qing is right.

          Well, since you prefer not to know, but to believe, then I can’t help you: questions of faith are sacred to me laughing
          Quote: bya965
          By the way, why is there so little explosive in lemon juice?

          It’s scary to even ask what lemon has to do with a high-explosive projectile. So I guess I won't ask
          1. -13
            30 January 2024 10: 59
            I am a scientific atheist, for me it is not faith that is important, but the experiment, or rather its repeatability.
            And if you don’t understand why high-explosive shells (high-explosive Karl!) the main thing is not explosives, but a thick skin made of steel, or better yet cast iron.
            Then I won’t throw beads. You study physics. Shellless!
            1. +9
              30 January 2024 11: 16
              Scientific atheism is as much an oxymoron as non-alcoholic vodka.
              Science involves a subject of study, an object of study and a methodology of study. Which of the above does atheism have?
              1. -12
                30 January 2024 11: 29
                I don’t see philosophy (methodology of knowledge), nor do I see religion. Rave
                1. +7
                  30 January 2024 11: 36
                  Then you are not an atheist, you are an antitheist and, based on your answer, you cannot refer to science in this matter. And since you deny the methodology of scientific knowledge and consider it nonsense, then you use your own method - the method of unscientific poking. And you use the word “scientific” to add value to your comments.
                  1. -11
                    30 January 2024 11: 44
                    I'm ambidextrous. Therefore, when there are a lot of words and no information, it’s nonsense for me.
                    My brain doesn't process it, it just irritates me.
                    Only great scientists who have done a lot in science, for example Poincaré, can philosophize.
                    Philosophers tell everyone about the methodology of scientific knowledge, but they have never succeeded!
                    Just like with priests! But there is a terrible judgment!
                    1. +2
                      30 January 2024 12: 54
                      Philosophers tell everyone about the methodology of scientific knowledge, but they have never succeeded!

                      What, in your opinion, should have been achieved by philosophers, but did not work out?
                      Just like with priests! But there is a terrible judgment!

                      Judging by your last phrase, the clergy still succeeded winked
                      1. -3
                        30 January 2024 19: 50
                        Quote: Victor Masyuk
                        Judging by your last phrase, the clergy still got winked

                        What can the priests succeed in, they have no education. But prayers will definitely help, for example, against Covid. Or the Americans!
                    2. +3
                      30 January 2024 20: 12
                      In my opinion, you are a narcissist and a narrow-minded Suvorovite, not an ambidexter, but call yourself whatever you want, it’s your choice
            2. UAT
              +6
              30 January 2024 11: 24
              Dear bya965, your reluctance to understand the arguments is surprising. Your allusions to physics are simply beyond the bounds. If, in an attempt to substantiate the thesis about the primacy of the shell of a high-explosive projectile, you take the extreme case of a shellless projectile, take the trouble to consider the situation without a charge (or with a negligible charge) and make sure that if the charge is insufficient, the impact of a high-explosive projectile will be just as small compared to a projectile with balanced quantity of explosives and mass/strength of the shell.
              1. -5
                30 January 2024 11: 34
                Dear UAT! Thanks for your comments
                The weight of the lemon, as a keepsake, is 600 grams, BB 60 grams. With a larger land mine, the ratio of explosives to weight is even lower, more precisely 6-7%.
                The main thing is that it breaks. Here, of course, you can compensate for the speed of detonation. It is different for different explosives.
                For clarity
                https://youtu.be/X0PQkqpPkNw?si=QbEkYKMpY3_2ho4p
            3. +5
              30 January 2024 11: 34
              Quote: bya965
              And if you don’t understand why with high-explosive shells (high-explosive Karl!) the main thing is not explosives, but a thick skin of steel

              In lemon the explosive content is 10%, while in Tsushima shells this figure was only 1,8%. Therefore, it was considered very bad (and this is described in the MTK report), and therefore they first created the Model 1907 projectile with 8,4% explosive content, and then the Model 1911 projectile for Russian dreadnoughts with an explosive content of 13%.
              Quote: bya965
              I'm a scientific atheist

              I’m surprised that you know such words without knowing how to calculate the specific gravity of an explosive in a projectile
              1. +2
                30 January 2024 14: 55
                “Oh, in Tsushima shells this figure was only 1,8%. “And in WW2 ARS it was 2,3-2,5%, in Alaska it was generally 1,5%... bully
                1. +5
                  30 January 2024 15: 07
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  "and in WW2 ARS it was 2,3-2,5%

                  This is a BB, and we’re talking about land mines here :)))
            4. +3
              30 January 2024 12: 57
              And if you don’t understand why high-explosive shells (high-explosive Karl!) the main thing is not explosives, but a thick skin made of steel, or better yet cast iron.
              Then I won’t throw beads. You study physics. Shellless!

              You generate ignorant nonsense, and with a tenacity worthy of better use.
              I won’t consider it a labor, I’ll throw some beads for you.
              Opening an ancient textbook
              Artillery course. edited by Doctor of Military Sciences, Professor, Major General of Artillery D. E. Kozlovsky.

              Text on illustration.
              1. -7
                30 January 2024 13: 33
                I am a mechanic, or rather a specialist in transonic gas flows. He served in the army, even taught at a military school in the late 90s. Doctors of military sciences, as a rule, are not very good scientists.
                1. +4
                  30 January 2024 13: 40
                  I am a mechanic, or rather a specialist in transonic gas flows.

                  If you are the same specialist in gas dynamics as you are in artillery, then this is regrettable.
                  1. -5
                    30 January 2024 13: 43
                    I am a mechanic, or rather a specialist in transonic gas flows. I served as a senior laboratory technician in the army, even taught at a military school in the late 90s, but they simply didn’t pay my basic salary. Doctors of military sciences, as a rule, are not very good scientists.
                    Armor-piercing especially for you! for high explosives 69,67 / 861 = 8.1%


                    Characteristics of American 406 mm shells
                    Projectile AP Mk 5[26] AP Mk 8[26] HC Mk 13 / Mk 14[27] Target Mk 9 / Mk 10[28]
                    Projectile type Armor-piercing Armor-piercing High-explosive Training
                    Total length, mm 1625,60 1828,80 1625,60 1828,80
                    Length without cap, mm 1102,03 1310,64 1528,57
                    Projectile body diameter, mm 405,82
                    Distance from the bottom to the leading belt, mm 102,36 102,36 102,36 63,50
                    Width of the driving belt, mm 135,13 135,13 135,13
                    Explosive type Explosive D -
                    Explosive mass 15,42 18,55 69,67 -
                    Projectile weight, kg 1016,05 1224,70 861,83 1224,70
                    % filling 1,52 1,51 8,08 -
                    Head fuze - Mk 29 -
                    Bottom fuze Mk 21 Mk 21 Mk 28 -
                    1. +4
                      30 January 2024 13: 47
                      What did you want to show with this copy-paste?
                      1. +3
                        30 January 2024 14: 23
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        What did you want to show with this copy-paste?

                        He wanted to say that he did not know any other high-explosive shells except the American 406 mm. And that his sources with which he works are Wikipedia. And he cannot see what explosive content other shells had - for example, the famous British 15-dm
                        HE 4crh - 1,920 lbs. (871kg)
                        HE 8crh - 1,965 lbs. (891kg)
                        Had explosives
                        HE 4crh - 216.5 - 224.0 lbs. (98.2 - 101.6 kg) Lyddite
                        HE 8crh - 224.0 lbs. (101.6 kg) Lyddite
                      2. +6
                        30 January 2024 14: 39
                        By the way, the Americans, having decided to modernize the battleship Iowa in the early 80s, also became concerned with modernizing the main caliber shells and, to replace the Mk 13, which contained 69 kg, developed the Mk 67, containing 147 kg of explosives. At the same time, the shell, thanks to higher-strength steels, was made thinner.
                      3. 0
                        30 January 2024 15: 00
                        Did they really expect to fire at ships with these shells?
                      4. +4
                        30 January 2024 19: 03
                        Did they really expect to fire at ships with these shells?

                        Fortunately, no. If you are going to “democratize” some kind of coastal country, then having large guns on your ships at hand, you can significantly save on sorties by simply working with land mines along the coast. Which is what was done. Ton (metaphorically) crazy people are also an argument wink
                    2. UAT
                      +7
                      30 January 2024 14: 35
                      Dear bya965. You cite the explosive content in a high-explosive projectile as 8.1%, without paying attention to the post by the author of the article from 11:34, where he tells you that the projectiles under discussion contain 1.8%. I would like to see arguments on the merits, and not at the plinth level, which you successfully demonstrate. And by the way. There are plenty of people with reduced intelligence among doctors (not only of military sciences), but also among simply mechanics, incl. specialists in subsonic gas flows.
                      1. -8
                        30 January 2024 19: 57
                        Quote: UAT
                        to the post of the author of the article from 11:34, where he informs you that the shells under discussion contain 1.8%.

                        Well, young people, teenagers and everyone else, you really can’t add 2+2. I’m talking about land mines, but for armor-piercing ones, I understand you don’t boom boom in numbers. But still there is a brain.

                        Projectile mass, kg 1016,05% filling 1,52
                      2. +1
                        31 January 2024 08: 54
                        Quote: bya965
                        I'm talking about landmines

                        For those who consider themselves a technical specialist without knowing how to read, we were talking specifically about a high-explosive projectile. With 1,8% explosive content
                  2. -10
                    30 January 2024 13: 50
                    Think with your head, not with your textbook. And have your own opinion, not Kozlovsky’s opinion.
                    1. +4
                      30 January 2024 13: 52
                      That is, you continue to persist in your ignorance and are unable to provide any clear evidence of your point of view. Q.E.D.
                    2. +4
                      30 January 2024 14: 10
                      I am a mechanic, or rather a specialist in transonic gas flows.

                      Think with your head, not with your textbook. And have your own opinion, not Kozlovsky’s opinion.

                      Such words indicate that you are not an expert, but an ordinary talker. Or did you comprehend gas dynamics with your own mind, bypassing the university and textbooks? Then tell the audience about your contribution to gas dynamics.
                      1. -6
                        30 January 2024 20: 02
                        Oh, how do you have discussions with yourself?
                        This is a clinic. My Scopus
                      2. +2
                        30 January 2024 21: 02
                        My Scopus

                        Scopus is not yours, but Elsevier's. You, theoretically, could have a profile there. But you did not answer the question - how did you comprehend the basics of gas dynamics, under the guidance of teachers from textbooks or, as you say, “with your head”, drawing information directly from the noosphere. Secondly, this does not bring you any closer to the artillery.
                      3. -3
                        31 January 2024 04: 03
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        from textbooks or, as you say, “with your head,” drawing information directly from the noosphere.

                        Typical philological education. And who do you think writes textbooks, then who read other textbooks. And so on. Rave. Turn on logic.
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        Scopus is not yours, but Elsevier's. You, theoretically, could have a profile there.

                        There is the word edit profile. I can’t rule Elsevier.
                        I remembered one hero of the civil war, when he was imprisoned at 37, he wrote a letter to Stalin. How can I be an American spy, I don’t know the American language. This is about you!
                      4. +1
                        31 January 2024 09: 18
                        Typical philological education.

                        You are wrong. Extremely technical. Even two.
                        And who do you think writes textbooks, then who read other textbooks.

                        Oh, nevertheless, you admitted the fact that you were stupid about textbooks, perhaps without noticing it yourself.
                        However, I'm talking about something else. If you are a specialist in the field of mathematical modeling, numerical methods and software packages, and even with an academic degree, then you can apply your knowledge to the study of the processes occurring in high-explosive shells during an explosion. Oddly enough, even in our time, the creators of new high-explosive shells have to rely more on practice than on theory, so you, Yuri Anatolyevich, will have room to turn around. You will advance science forward and dispel your own misconceptions at the same time.
                      5. -3
                        31 January 2024 05: 16
                        Here is the abstract of one of my papers on fluid dynamics.
                        Based on the algorithm for constructing Gröbner bases, a class of simultaneous difference schemes for the Navier-Stokes equations of an incompressible fluid in physical variables and their differential approximations are considered. The results of a study of the first differential approximations of these schemes, performed by the author's programs implemented in the SymPy computer algebra system, are presented. For the considered difference schemes, the quadratic dependence of the error of the considered difference schemes for large Reynolds numbers and the inverse proportional one for creeping flows are shown.

                        I mainly write on computer algebra
                        A new version of GInv (Gröbner Involutive) for calculating Gröbner involutive bases is presented in the form of a library in C++11. GInv uses object-oriented memory reallocation for dynamic data structures such as lists, red-black and binary trees, GMP libraries for arbitrary-precision integer calculations. The package interface is designed as a Python3 language module. The proposed approach is practically devoid of the disadvantages of standard malloc/free and the approach using garbage collection. Makes good use of memory paging and processor cache. It is very simple to implement compared to standard malloc/free and allows you to effectively find errors associated with memory leaks.
                2. The comment was deleted.
            5. +4
              30 January 2024 20: 12
              As a scientific atheist, can you answer a scientific atheist: what is the difference between high explosiveness and explosiveness?
              1. -3
                30 January 2024 20: 36
                I already wrote about the speed of detonation or you don’t understand Russian. If the detonation speed is high, then this to some extent compensates for the lack of a shell.
            6. 0
              31 January 2024 20: 41
              Quote: bya965
              For high-explosive shells (high-explosive Karl!) the main thing is not explosives, but a thick skin made of steel, or better yet cast iron.

              A projectile made of cast iron is, at best, suitable as shrapnel, and the main part of the metal, even if it is steely cast iron, turns not into fragments but into dust; when it meets the armor, the body of the cast iron projectile simply splits or rather crumbles and all the energy of the explosion does not go into the armor and not into the armored space, but into the atmosphere.
            7. 0
              7 February 2024 13: 15
              There is no need to compare a shell in the navy and a grenade on the ground. Lemongrass produces many small fragments. This is good in rooms and trenches, but it will never be able to penetrate anything. A high-explosive projectile must deliver as much explosive as possible. This sounds from the meaning of its name. Not high-explosive, but simply high-explosive. Thus, he will somehow kill someone or disable something there. Fragments are a good thing for a BS when it has penetrated armor, but a secondary thing for a high explosive, which does not penetrate armor.
      2. 0
        30 January 2024 19: 09
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I don't recommend it even for beginners.

        Damn, I was planning on... belay
        I just don't like videos. I read Lisitsyn’s monograph about “Varyag”. Seems not bad.
        Yes, we came across it on the Internet feel
        1. +3
          30 January 2024 20: 02
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          I read Lisitsyn’s monograph about “Varyag”. Seems not bad.

          Look for Kataev’s book about “Varyag” and compare it with the subject, so to speak...

          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Yes, and on the Internet we encountered feelings

          I also encountered... laughing Funny man.
          He proved to me very clearly that the main agreements with Germany (for example, on the caliber of main battery warships) were not spelled out in the Treaty of Versailles, but were agreed upon verbally between the allies and Germany, and therefore were not indicated in the treaty. :)
          1. +2
            30 January 2024 22: 50
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Look for Kataev's book about "Varyag"

            Read. And Melnikov, of course, too. True, a long time ago feel
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Funny man.

            Not without it.
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            were agreed upon orally between the Allies and Germany, and therefore were not indicated in the treaty.

            Wow!
            1. +3
              30 January 2024 23: 28
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Wow!

              So... :)
              And then there was the “Bismarck Trilogy”: it was complete garbage...
              FVL fantasized wildly. wassat
        2. +1
          31 January 2024 11: 43
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          I just don't like videos.

          The same. Therefore, I looked diagonally because of the discussion that arose. The man quite seriously blamed Logan for the fact that Bayan only has two eight-inch cameras, and not four... And other things to match
          1. +2
            31 January 2024 15: 07
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Therefore, I looked diagonally because of the discussion that arose. The man quite seriously blamed Logan for the fact that Bayan only has two eight-inch cameras, and not four... And other things to match

            You have not yet had discussions with him in correspondence; the given text from the original of the old document was refuted by a modern edition with a different interpretation.
            1. +3
              31 January 2024 15: 20
              Quote: 27091965i
              the given text from the original of the old document was refuted by a modern edition with a different interpretation

              wassat Oh how! Well, what: if some despicable facts blatantly do not fit into the hypothesis, so much the worse for the facts!
              1. +3
                1 February 2024 19: 21
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                wassat Oh how! Well, what: if some despicable facts blatantly do not fit into the hypothesis, so much the worse for the facts!

                Sorry for being off-topic.
                I’m somehow more on the Second World War... When the “Bismarck Trilogy” from F.V.L. came out in LiveJournal, a “debriefing” of the author’s flight of thought was made in two parts, then on separate resources I saw requests to comment on the comments, but F.V.L. proudly “made a default figure.” :)
                https://pr-eugen.livejournal.com/1920.html
                https://pr-eugen.livejournal.com/2182.html

                Now, according to rumors, a friend is preparing a series of “lectures” about Jutland.
                1. +2
                  1 February 2024 19: 31
                  Thank you very much, Maxim, I read it with great pleasure. What FVL said there is of little interest to me, but your analysis of real and unknown facts to me is very interesting.
                  1. +3
                    1 February 2024 19: 57
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    analysis with real and unknown facts to me is very interesting.

                    There is not an analysis, but comments on what was said...
                    In my humble opinion F.V.L. for some reason it pulls you into some kind of fantasy, but you need very little. Using the same "Bismarck" as an example...
                    To make a normal video for the “broad masses”, three sources are enough:
                    - “Bismarck” from S. Patyanin and A. Malov;
                    - Memoirs of Baron M.-R.;
                    - Tovey's reports to the Lord Commissioners.
                    What do they all have in common? They are on the Internet and they are in Russian.
                    You just need to read them with a pencil and take notes: memory is not an ideal thing.
                    If you want to add “strawberries”, you can add:
                    - ZhBD "Eugen"
                    - reconstruction of the Bisimarca reinforced concrete structure
                    - report from the commander of the Prince of Wales
                    - report from the commander of the Suffolk
                    - RCC SKL
                    - radio traffic of British ships during the operation.
                    This is all also available on the Internet and even in easy-to-read English: no need to bother with translations from German.
                    But this will take some time. :)
                    1. +2
                      1 February 2024 19: 58
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      - Tovey's reports to the Lord Commissioners.

                      Are they available in Russian? First time I've heard of it, I'll have to find it!
                      1. +2
                        1 February 2024 20: 18
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Are they available in Russian?

                        If you remember the black and yellow VIB series, then look for the second volume of “The Battle of the Atlantic”, it comes as an appendix to it.

                        If so, here it is in English.
                        http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509tovey.htm
                      2. +2
                        2 February 2024 08: 13
                        Thank you very much, I’ll bookmark the English text just in case, and I’ll look for VIB hi
                      3. 0
                        2 February 2024 13: 09
                        If you remember the black and yellow VIB series, then look for the second volume of “The Battle of the Atlantic”, it comes as an appendix to it.

                        If anything, I can film this application and send it.
                        Will something like “Verb...” come out soon? feel
                      4. +2
                        2 February 2024 13: 35
                        Thank you for the suggestion! I’ll try to find it myself, if it doesn’t work out, then I’ll turn to you with a request. And about the Verb... not very soon. I have a plan for a book in the genre of althistory on REV, but I haven’t really even started. And the Verb took 5 years to write
    2. +8
      30 January 2024 18: 02
      Quote: bya965
      I advise you to look
      Fedor Lisitsyn. Alexey Isaev. Russo-Japanese War

      To understand that there is FVL in tandem, it was enough to watch his premiere trilogy about “Bismarck”...
      After watching it, it became clear that the said comrade understands the issues, as...well, in general, he doesn’t understand at all. laughing
    3. +3
      31 January 2024 12: 58
      For such “historians”, Tsushima even created a separate section “Myths, legends, fairy tales, epics and other alternative history...”
      https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11238
      1. +2
        31 January 2024 17: 23
        Quote: rytik32
        For such “historians”, Tsushima even created a separate section “Myths, legends, fairy tales, epics and other alternative history...”

        As I understand it, the section is in the formative stage, so to speak...
    4. 0
      1 February 2024 19: 18
      Is this what you mean?



      In relation to Isaev, we can say that this is not his historical period and not his topic. And he’s not at all naval technical. But Lisitsyn, despite his meticulousness, openly in the technical details of the projectile topic, “did not shine.”
      1. -1
        2 February 2024 04: 46
        Quote: AlexanderA
        In relation to Isaev, we can say that this is not his historical period and not his topic. And he’s not at all naval technical.

        That is why he is the presenter, as an expert in a related but different topic. And he asks Lisitsyn the right questions.

        Quote: AlexanderA
        But Lisitsyn, despite his meticulousness, openly in the technical details of the projectile topic, “did not shine.”

        And here it is not necessary.
        1. The topic is very “sweaty”, it’s written by everyone, both ours and the Japanese and the Germans, etc. The main thing is that we lost because the shells were of the wrong system.
        2. You can talk for a long time about how wonderful a device I made, but if it doesn’t drive or fly, then no one needs it. So here, most of the comments here are not analytical calculations, but simply a statement of some single fact or a repetition of someone else’s view, while this someone is simply infallible.
        All people make mistakes, including me. Our task, for example when programming, is to write programs so that we can find errors in them and fix them or be able to remake them.
        3. Lisitsyn did a great job and showed that so many were released, so many hit, such and such results. And he checked everything from both ours and the Japanese, what was reliable and what wasn’t. And all other arguments do not go against this. And most importantly, with this approach it is not necessary to know
        projectile theme details
        1. +2
          2 February 2024 08: 18
          Quote: bya965
          Lisitsyn did a great job and showed that so many were released, so many hit, such and such results.

          :)))) Honestly, I don’t want to listen to him to find out what he “counted” there, but generally speaking, the calculations were made long before him. If you tell me the time where he talks about hits, maybe I can tell whose numbers he is giving
          1. 0
            2 February 2024 18: 24
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            :)))) Honestly, I don’t want to listen to him to find out what he “counted” there, but generally speaking, the calculations were made long before him. If you tell me the time where he talks about hits, maybe I can tell whose numbers he is giving

            I forgot, or rather I remembered, that in LiveJournal there are analyzes of parts of this video cycle about REV... :)
            Maybe someone will be interested.
            Port Arthur, Manchuria, etc.
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/23956.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/24094.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/25148.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/25409.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/25842.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/25953.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/26582.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/27126.html
            https://reductor111.livejournal.com/28400.html

            Cusima

            https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/53797.html
            https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/54175.html
            https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/54506.html
            https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/54698.html
            https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/55038.html
            https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/55272.html
        2. 0
          2 February 2024 21: 01
          Quote: bya965
          That is why he is the presenter, as an expert in a related but different topic. And he asks Lisitsyn the right questions.

          Neither on the Russian-Japanese War, nor on artillery and ammunition affairs of the late 19th early 20th century, Candidate of Historical Sciences A.V. Isaev is not a “leading specialist”. His specialization is the Great Patriotic War.
          And here it is not necessary.

          Meticulous Lisitsyn says the right things... except for very important small details. For example, in the first video, at the 47th minute, he does not find any fundamental difference in the design of Japanese and Russian fuses (“tubes”). And this despite the fact that the Japanese simply did not have a delayed-action fuse similar in its deceleration to Brink’s two-capsule fuse. Lisitsyn mistakenly uses the term “double-acting tube.” It produces delusional statements: “the tubes could be set to instant action and delayed action” “the Japanese went a little overboard with the sensitivity of the tubes” “the Japanese fuses were set to sensitivity, among other things, to make shooting easier.” And the term “intermediate detonator” simply does not exist in Lisitsyn’s speech. But at the same time, we can admit that Lisitsyn is an excellent encyclopedist, and most likely read Rdultovsky, but due to his basic biological education, he simply simply did not understand in places.

          Otherwise, I know major specialists in the Russo-Japanese War, due to the fact that they do not understand ammunition very well; they still do not understand that the main role in the artillery battle at Tsushima was played by a huge number of hits from 8" and 6" high-explosive shells of the Japanese, which deprived our combat capability ships and did not allow us to realize our superiority in the number of 12" main battery guns.

          Can you tell us how the sensitivity and deceleration of the Ijuin fuse were adjusted?
          1. 0
            3 February 2024 06: 27
            Thanks for the first more or less normal comment!
            I apologize for the design, the site developers somehow didn’t make the comment engine very well.
            [quote=Alexander] Neither on the Russian-Japanese War, nor on artillery and ammunition affairs of the late 19th early 20th century, Candidate of Historical Sciences A.V. Isaev is not a “leading specialist”. His specialization is the Great Patriotic War.[/quote]
            History is not a science in the usual sense. Because there is no criterion for the truth of the experiment. Therefore, your statements are also based on whose, but they may not be true. For me, a specialist in the Second World War may well be a leader in the Russian-Japanese and First World Wars. In addition, he graduated from MEPhI and therefore received the right education. Historians and all sorts of priests serve those who feed them. (Perhaps harshly, but I observe this from 1982 to today, the same people taught me the History of the Party, materialism, scientific communism, then they became sociologists and talked about the harm of Stalin, now the same people have focused on the study of religions and have become strong believers) .

            There is, of course, the mathematician Fomenko. He pointed out that often entire layers of history are built from one source. To which historians have nothing to object. It’s like a judge who judged in the Stavropol Territory for 18 years without a diploma. According to the rules, all her decisions must be reconsidered, but who will. But then “Ostap got carried away.”
            [quote=AlexandrA]but due to my basic biological education I simply didn’t understand some places.[/quote]
            For me, as a mathematician, biologists are even closer to physicists. They are used to studying complex systems and solving classification problems. Therefore, if a biologist is knowledgeable about the topic, he will understand history better than historians.
            [quote = Alexander] Meticulous Lisitsyn says the right things... except for very important small details. For example, in the first video, at the 47th minute, he does not find any fundamental difference in the design of Japanese and Russian fuses (“tubes”). And this despite the fact that the Japanese simply did not have a delayed-action fuse similar in its deceleration to Brink’s two-capsule fuse. Lisitsyn mistakenly uses the term “double-acting tube.” It produces delusional statements: “the tubes could be set to instant action and delayed action” “the Japanese went a little overboard with the sensitivity of the tubes” “the Japanese fuses were set to sensitivity, among other things, to make shooting easier.” And the term “intermediate detonator” simply does not exist in Lisitsyn’s speech. But at the same time, we can admit that Lisitsyn is an excellent encyclopedist, and most likely read Rdultovsky, but due to his basic biological education, he simply simply did not understand in places.
            [/ Quote]
            As a person who has presented materials on the Russian-Japanese for about 12 hours, if not more, we can forgive this lack of accuracy. I'm sure there are a lot of them out there. We do not have a criterion of truth and we cannot calculate them, like chemists and physicists conducting a clarifying experiment, mathematicians checking the proof, and programmers debugging and correcting the program
            Otherwise, I know major specialists in the Russo-Japanese War, due to the fact that they do not understand ammunition very well; they still do not understand that the main role in the artillery battle at Tsushima was played by a huge number of hits from 8" and 6" high-explosive shells of the Japanese, which deprived our combat capability ships and did not allow us to realize our superiority in the number of 12" main battery guns.[/quote]
            There is an effect of projectiles due to kinetic effects, shock waves and fragments. For simplicity, we will not consider specific ones that ignite and use volumetric explosions. The 8" and 6" high-explosive shells of the Japanese had mainly a fragmentation effect and were deprived of combat effectiveness, but they could not sink large ships. It’s like two Beardleys were able to dismantle a T-90, but couldn’t knock it out. I don’t want to write in detail, you don’t know thermal mechanics, gas dynamics and at least strength materials (better the theory of elasticity and plasticity).
            [quote=Alexander]Can you tell us how the sensitivity and deceleration of the Ijuin fuse were adjusted?[/quote]
            Don't know. Then you have a question on the topic, since how the projectile flies and at what angle it hits is important? How does it rotate and how does it deflect?
            How do Lagrange equations of the 1st kind differ from the 2nd kind?
            And is it possible to get by with Newton's laws in both cases?
            1. +1
              3 February 2024 18: 51
              Quote: bya965
              It’s like two Beardleys were able to dismantle a T-90, but couldn’t knock it out. I don’t want to write in detail, you don’t know thermal mechanics, gas dynamics and at least strength materials (better the theory of elasticity and plasticity).

              Interesting analogy.

              When at seven o'clock in the evening the Japanese destroyers launched an attack on what was left of the "Prince Suvorov", one (according to other sources two) surviving 75-millimeter Kane was firing at the Japanese on this smoking floating pile of debris. Was this battleship dismantled, but not yet hit?

              Let's use the terms of military science:

              “Destruction is the infliction of such damage on a target (object) that leads to its (his) death (sinking of a ship, destruction of a stationary sea or coastal object, electronic destruction object) or to the impossibility of its (his) restoration.
              Incapacitation is the infliction of such damage on a target (object) that completely deprives it (him) of the ability to function as intended for a long time and requires major restoration work (disrupts the functioning of the electronic destruction object).
              Weakening is the infliction of such damage on a target (object) that partially deprives it (him) of the ability to function as intended and requires restoration work (disturbs the functioning of the electronic destruction object).
              Suppression is an impact on a target (object), which reduces the possibility of its (his) functioning as intended or stops its (his) functioning for a given period (complicates the functioning of the electronic destruction object).
              The required level of probability of achieving a given degree of destruction of a single target (the reliability of achieving this particular degree of destruction) is assigned when setting a combat mission or by the decision of the commander, usually within 0.8 - 0.9."

              I don’t know a lot of things, but my retrospective military-technical knowledge is enough to notice where the respected meticulous encyclopedist Lisitsyn screws up from time to time in technical matters. Do you have a similar level of military-technical knowledge?

              You wrote above in the comment to the article: "You don’t have to read further. Because it’s great stupidity. I advise you to watch Fyodor Lisitsyn. Alexey Isaev. The Russian-Japanese War"

              From the level of my own military-technical knowledge, I inform you that Andrei from Chelyabinsk understands the naval-shell-Tsushima topic better than the encyclopedist Lisitsyn, and even more so the candidate of historical sciences Isaev, who you proposed as standards.

              At the same time, Lisitsyn says everything correctly, with the exception of some details. And it is precisely these details (in which the devil is) that lead Lisitsyn to the incorrect conclusion that in the Tsushima tragedy the “shell issue” was not so important, that Russian shells were comparable in quality to Japanese ones. This, by the way, is also historical revisionism, because the analysis of the Tsushima tragedy based on fresh traces led experts at one time to the opinion that shells played a very important role in it.

              There were, however, plenty of military-technical and tactical shoals, from the same mentioned by Lisitsyn, which increasingly went astray when firing from the aiming line of Perepyolkin’s optical sights, to the much lower rate of fire of the 6" turrets of the Borodino-type battleships in comparison with the casemate 6" guns of the Japanese. From the more advanced Japanese method of shooting, to Rozhdestvensky’s last flag signal to “hit the head,” which, contrary to elementary logic, the commanders and superiors, deprived of the initiative by Rozhdestvensky himself for many months, tried to follow for quite a long time in both the 2nd and 3rd detachments. From the sacramental 9 knots of progress of the squadron, which was forced to break through to Vladivostok by the Tsushima breakthrough with a caravan of slow transports, to the lack of attempts to rid the ships of the Russian squadron (or at least hide them under an armored deck) before an artillery battle from what was superfluous in battle and could easily burn. Etc. and so on.

              At the same time, the “shell issue” remains one of the most important ingredients that turned the inevitable defeat of the main forces of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron in an artillery battle of the main forces into a catastrophic defeat, considered “one goal”. Only the notorious 9 squadron speed units compete with it in importance.

              I do not know.

              Neither the sensitivity nor the deceleration were adjusted for the Ijuin fuse. . Whatever was determined by its design remained the same from the moment of its manufacture until the moment of the shot. The low sensitivity and other shortcomings of the Brink fuse were also due to its design and production execution and were not adjusted in any way.

              Then you have a question on the topic, since how the projectile flies and at what angle it hits is important? How does it rotate and how does it deflect? How do Lagrange equations of the 1st kind differ from the 2nd kind? And is it possible to get by with Newton's laws in both cases?


              Do you want to open the eyes of those present to the incredible nutation of Japanese high-explosive shells? Using the example of the domestic 305 mm high-explosive projectile model 1911, please explain? And by the way, please explain on the 12"/40 "Armstrong-Whitworth" there was a rifling of a constant steepness, or as on the domestic 12"/40 of the Obukhov plant of a mixed system: at the beginning, at a length of 0.5 klb, rifling of a constant steepness, then - a progressive steepness and at the end at a length 4 klb - constant steepness? How was the Armstrong-Whitworth wire barrel barrel better/worse than the domestic one made of three rows of cylinders and rings?

              Closer to artillery practice, comrade bya965. When compiling firing tables for Tsushima cannons, calculus of variations was not used.

              Or... following Fedor Viktorovich Lisitsyn, will you continue to assume that, against the background of the differences between the Lagrange equations of the 1st and 2nd kind within the framework of the Tsushima theme, the differences in Russian and Japanese fuses are not important? :)
              1. 0
                4 February 2024 05: 30
                Thank you for the discussion Alexander, better Alexander, like me Yura!
                Your arguments are significant. Fuzes are important, but so are other factors. According to the regulations, ours fired in volleys and therefore could not accurately identify their hits to correct the shooting. Perhaps this is what had a greater impact on the outcome of the battle. But most likely we will each remain with our own opinion. But this is correct. I am for everyone to think with their own heads and have their own opinion, perhaps wrong but their own. So Russia will be stronger.

                I have prototypes of projectiles that were blown in a wind tunnel at my work to increase range. I won’t forget to send you a private message tomorrow.

                Well, I’m not a technician, of course, my engineers and mechanics use me when they need to move or lift something very heavy. Because I know how to apply leverage from theory.

                The whole termekh is only Newton's laws, Lagrange's laws of the 1st kind and the 2nd too. Well, there are also holonomic and nonholonomic connections. In general, there are a lot of parameters. For example, heating a projectile + air temperature and humidity. Could this affect the fuse?

                Thanks again!
                1. 0
                  6 February 2024 00: 44
                  Quote: bya965
                  According to the regulations, ours fired in volleys and therefore could not accurately identify their hits to correct the shooting. Perhaps this is what had a greater impact on the outcome of the battle.

                  The quality of the shells greatly influenced the outcome of the war. For example, if our fleet had shells with a fragmentation effect that was not inferior to the Japanese, Admiral Togo would have been wounded or died during the battle in the Yellow Sea. ("At 18.30 (17.35) a 152-mm shell hit the semaphore on the left wing of the forward bridge... On the upper bridge (compass platform) 6 people were injured, including 5 officers. A staff officer, lieutenant commander, was mortally wounded Ueda, the ship’s commander, Captain 1st Rank Ijichi; flag officer, Lieutenant Commander Ogura; midshipman Nakazawa and midshipman Hasegawa were injured to varying degrees of severity.")

                  Correct sighting is carried out in one salvo, for simple identification of coverage - no less than a four-gun salvo. If you have studied the Tsushima battle, you are aware that for shooting on Russian Borodino-class battleships they assigned one 6" two-gun turret. Not two, not three, just one. Russian 6" steel shells, unlike Japanese ones, which produced a black cloud of explosion, did not exploded when falling into water. Russian 6" towers did not differ in rate of fire in comparison with Japanese casemate and deck 6" guns. The Russian fleet practiced sighting on underflights, instead of the more progressive: underflight-overflight-cover. And due to the fact that Rozhdestvensky did not bother to organize and practice squad-by-squad concentration of fire, everything turned out badly with the shooting at the “Mikasa” indicated as the only target.

                  But most likely we will each remain with our own opinion. But this is correct. I am for everyone to think with their own heads and have their own opinion, perhaps wrong but their own. So Russia will be stronger.


                  The question is why people study history at all, in particular military history. In order to understand the reasons. After the victory in the Battle of Sinop on November 18 (30), 1853, the Russian Navy has not had any high-profile victories in battles for 170 years. There were victories in individual battles, but not a single naval battle could be won in all these years. For almost 170 years, the Russian Navy has been the most problematic branch of our armed forces. To understand the reasons for this, you need to understand the reasons for the numerous defeats of the fleet over these same 170 years and find commonality.

                  What is common is the inability to highlight the main thing against the background of the secondary, and not to preserve the technical and tactical lag in this main thing, as happened with the conservation of the lag from the advanced fleets in steam battleships on the eve of the Crimean War of 1853-1856, in artillery ammunition and methods of organizing artillery fire on the eve REV 1904-1905

                  As R.M. once wrote. Melnikov in his book “Rurik” was the first”: “Ordained from above was the famous table of 286 exercises, in the mass of which, sometimes far-fetched and archaic (with mine rafts, kites, missiles for rail communication from the shore, etc.) those the main ones, on which the combat readiness and combat effectiveness of the ship directly depended."

                  The ammunition of naval artillery and the methods of organizing artillery fire of a ship/detachment of ships were dealt with only after a devastating loss to the RYAV.

                  Neither in the First World War, nor during the Great Patriotic War did our weakened Navy shine. In the post-war period, the misunderstanding that the main threat to a surface ship is the air threat was preserved for many decades. By the end of the existence of the USSR, the number of ships with long-range air defense systems in the Navy could be counted on one hand; there were zero aircraft-carrying ships capable of carrying normal fighters. We are still dealing with the consequences - "Moskva", the only missile cruiser in the world sunk by an anti-ship missile attack.

                  After the attack on the US guided missile destroyer Cole in 2000, anti-boat guns became widespread on NATO ships. The Russian Navy slept through this threat too - and is now suffering significant losses from the BEC-kamikaze of a not-so-technologically advanced enemy. And if this enemy has kamikaze AUVs, it turns out that the fleet, in accordance with almost 170 years of tradition, is not ready to fight this new threat.

                  The tradition of technical and tactical lag - the construction of ships unable to protect themselves from certain types of threats. I won't even write about ships. The main armament of the 150-ton domestic special-purpose boat Project 21980 "Grachonok" is a 14,5 mm machine gun on a pedestal mount with manual guidance. The main armament of the American 72-ton Mark IV patrol boat is two remote-controlled stabilized 25 mm anti-boat guns Mk 38 Mod 2.

                  It’s generally clear who is most likely to fight off attacking unmanned exploding enemy boats and who is not.
                  1. +1
                    12 February 2024 12: 44
                    There is so much and everything seems to be correct... but... there are nuances.
                    Oddly enough, but Russian shells incapacitated a lot of people. It’s enough to remember how much Mikasa lost in two battles. Another thing is how much damage the Japanese shell caused to non-armor and how much Russian.

                    Even in 1905, the need to fire a salvo of 4-5 guns was not yet so obvious. Strictly speaking, up to 30 kb. even for a 6" caliber it is not really needed. And beyond 30 with those "SLA" and firing in one gulp did not really help. There were not even "Dumaresque" and "watches" yet, not to mention the sighting devices of the central nervous system, ballistic computers and more.

                    Technically, English installations have a faster rate of fire, but in terms of shell consumption this is not so noticeable. Especially in large calibers.

                    There was nothing special to practice squadron shooting at that time. Three ships could still fire at the same target, distinguishing between “their” falls using a stopwatch. No more. Why Rozhdestvensky didn’t take this into account - you should ask him.

                    After Tsushima, the Russian fleet no longer participated in large naval battles. He ceased to be third in the world and would have ceased to be so in any case, regardless of how the Russo-Japanese War would have ended. Russian industry simply could not build dreadnoughts in large quantities and quickly. When the Soviet fleet began to seriously compete with the American fleet, thank God, no battles happened.

                    I don’t see the point in citing Moscow as an example, because it is still not completely known what exactly happened to it. It is enough to look at the photographs of Stark after being hit by two anti-ship missiles and at the famous photographs of Moscow before his death. I didn't see anything similar there. The ship served its 40 years faithfully; it had just been repaired, but not modernized. He could no longer resist fundamentally new threats. However, there was simply nothing better or newer at the KChF.

                    Spruences in stock carried only NATO Sea Sparrow. Although the Kidds were built for export. The British armed the new frigates after Falkend with Sea Wolfs. At the level of technology at the end of the 20th century, all that remained was to fight off the anti-ship missiles that had popped up over the horizon. For this, an S-300 is not needed on every ship.

                    I don’t know what’s wrong with Rook; I think its use was thought of in a completely different way from the way it is happening now. In Soviet times, almost raid minesweepers carried AK-306s.
                    1. 0
                      14 February 2024 14: 13
                      Remind me what the Japanese had to do with sheltering mine-anti-mine artillery crews not currently involved in battle under an armored deck. If my memory serves me right, they stood by their deck guns during all the Russian-Japanese naval battles. This is where the increased losses in people come from.

                      In 1905, the need to fire with at least 3-4 gun salvoes was not yet clear to the Russian sailors, but the Japanese fired with just such salvos. And the black plumes of explosions from their shells filled with “shimoza” and equipped with sensitive fuses, exploding when falling into the water, were clearly visible to the Japanese artillerymen.

                      In terms of technical rate of fire, the British 6" were somewhat inferior to the 6" Kane, but the practical rate of fire of deck and casemate 6" installations of the Russian and Japanese fleets was almost the same, about 4 rounds per minute. The problem is that the practical rate of fire of the Russian 6" towers was then about 2 shots per minute per gun. As a result, having zeroed in, the Japanese ship gave more than twice the density of fire with a 6" caliber. The choice as a model for the Borodino series was the Tsarevich with 6" turrets, and not the significantly less labor-intensive Retvizan with casemate 6" artillery, was important technical preparation for the Tsushima tragedy.

                      Why Rozhdestvensky gave instructions on firing in detachments during the campaign, but the signal at the outset of the battle “Hit the head” was perceived as a guide to action by the entire squadron, you would have to ask everyone. But the investigative commission did not ask such a question.

                      After Tsushima, the Russian fleet no longer participated in large naval battles, but it did not particularly shine in small ones either. What is the largest victory of the Russian naval artillery achieved with overall superiority in forces, the heavily damaged 2,5 thousand ton "Albatross" washed ashore in the "Battle of Gotland" ("The Battle of Åland Islands, or the Battle of Gotland, which occurred in July 1915, was a naval battle of World War I between the German Empire and the Russian Empire, assisted by a submarine of the British Baltic Flotilla. It took place in the Baltic Sea off the shores of Gotland, Sweden, a country neutral in World War I.")?

                      Both the “Stark” and the “Moskva” have a serious list to the left side, loss of speed, traces of a large fire and the SAM/AU launchers are deployed “in a stowed manner”. Similar enough. The "Stark" was towed to the port, but the "Moscow" was sunk. In this case, yes, there is nothing similar.

                      "Moskva" was rearmed from the P-500 "Basalt" to the P-1000 "Vulcan". But to rearm the Moskva from the Osa-MA to the Pantsir-M... But why?

                      Sea Sparrow on Spruens:

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-7_Sea_Sparrow

                      The original RIM-7E was capable of flying at about Mach 2+, between 30 and 15,000 meters (98 and 49,213 ft), with a range of 15–22 kilometers (8.1–11.9 nmi) (depending on the target height). The RIM-7F enhanced the performances, but also the proximity fuse versus low flying targets, as the minimum altitude was reduced to 15 meters (49 ft) or less. The RIM-7M was able to strike targets at an altitude of 8 meters (26 ft), providing some capability against sea-skimming missiles such the Exocet [7].

                      Is it worth comparing their reach in range and altitude with the Daggers on the Udalykh (“Only in 1989, the Kinzhal air defense system was officially adopted for service on large anti-submarine ships of Project 1155”)?

                      All Type 23 anti-submarine frigates in service with the British Navy have already been re-equipped from Sea Wolf to Sea Ceptor. They ask, “Why?” for some reason it didn't happen.

                      It is clear that on Grachonki they did not plan to fight with enemy combat boats, whether crewed or uncrewed. Another “unclear” project regarding the price (“The contract was concluded in 2017, the cost of four boats amounted to 3,7 billion rubles”) 45 node Mark VI patrol boat of the US Navy with two 25 mm anti-boat guns Mark 38.
                      1. 0
                        16 February 2024 10: 59

                        anti-mine artillery under the armored deck. If my memory serves me right, they stood by their deck guns during all the Russian-Japanese naval battles. This is where the increased losses in people come from.

                        The commanders of Varyag and Gromoboy did the same. And not only them.


                        In 1905, the need to fire with at least 3-4 gun salvoes was not yet clear to the Russian sailors, but the Japanese fired with just such salvos. And black sultans

                        Maybe, but, judging by some testimonies of survivors from Orel, above 35-40 kb. The "frequency" of Japanese hits decreased sharply. And the very first “salvo” of one turret from Suvorov’s 6” did not prevent it from falling quite close to Mikas at 37-38 kb. By the way, the owners of 4-12” in WWI quite rarely fired full salvos. In Slava’s last battle, one of the towers was completely out of order. However, this did not prevent her from hitting with two-gun salvoes for 100 kb. Of course, a 4-gun salvo “makes life a lot easier.” But that's not really the point.


                        In terms of technical rate of fire, the British 6" were somewhat inferior to the 6" Kane, but the practical rate of fire of deck and casemate 6" installations of the Russian and

                        Firstly, I hinted at the rate of fire of the 1" main battery of the Japanese in Tsushima. Secondly, and with such a rate of fire Borodino could shoot all 12" shells in 2 hours. In fact, by the evening of 6/3, at least 14/05 of the 2" shells were shot by Orel (having lost half of the artillery by that time). In 3, with the actual charge in the "land mines" hardly 6 kg. no rate of fire would have helped. This is not where we should start.
                        Perhaps it was really too early to put 6" into the towers. Even in WWI. But MTK had certain reasons.


                        Why Rozhdestvensky gave instructions on firing in detachments during the campaign, but the signal at the outset of the battle “Hit the head” was perceived as a guide to action by the entire squadron, you would have to ask everyone. But the investigative commission did not ask such a question.

                        Because he gave such instructions to shoot at the target he indicated. And because the admiral was no longer on Oslyab. Which he knew very well, but did nothing about. Nebogatov shot at whomever he could get his hands on, and he was a good shot. In any case, even only the 1st detachment could no longer effectively shoot at one target.


                        After Tsushima, the Russian fleet no longer participated in large naval battles, but it did not particularly shine in small ones either. Which

                        Let's just say that Sarych and Moozund are clearly better than 3 battlecruisers lost in one day. Not counting the 3 armored vehicles and the Coronel. Those. The Germans did not sink a single large Russian ship with artillery fire. Even Glory still had to be achieved.


                        Both the “Stark” and the “Moskva” have a serious list to the left side, loss of speed, traces of a large fire and the SAM/AU launchers are deployed “in a stowed manner”. Similar enough. The "Stark" was towed to the port, but the "Moscow" was sunk. In this case, yes, there is nothing similar.

                        There, the destruction above the overhead lines and superstructures is not visible. Traces of fire are visible. And the holes are not visible. But there was clearly a hole. But it was in the overhead line area, or even lower.


                        to rearm "Moscow" from "Osa-MA" to "Pantsir-M"... Why?

                        For the same reason that Tsushima was hit by ships firing black powder. It's a pity for the money.


                        The original RIM-7E was capable of flying at about Mach 2+, between 30 and 15,000 meters (98 and 49,213 ft), with a range of 15–22 kilometres...

                        The fact that it is similar in range from a distance to a Hurricane or a Wave does not even make it a Wave. Because manual reloading. And even more so the Hurricane. Because there are only two "spotlights". And it’s not a fact that both of them could shine on the same side.


                        All Type 23 anti-submarine frigates in service with the British Navy have already been re-equipped from Sea Wolf to Sea Ceptor. They ask, “Why?”

                        At the time of entry into service, almost 10 years after Udaly, 5 km. Sea Wolfe's range did not bother the British. They had an excellent opportunity to make sure that 80 km. the range on the passport did not help Shefield. Although the rocket was launched from an airplane.
                      2. 0
                        16 February 2024 16: 06
                        The commanders of Varyag and Gromoboy did the same. And not only them.

                        Thus, the reasons for the high losses in personnel of the crews of the Varyag, Gromoboy and the crews of Japanese ships (in terms of the number of shell hits) are generally understandable. The high losses of killed and wounded Japanese were not due to the high fragmentation and high-explosive effect of Russian shells of that time, but to the fact that the Japanese did not shelter, in particular, the crews of 76 mm and small-caliber guns from unprotected combat posts under armor at those moments of the battles when they could NOT fire and stood idle at their guns, as well as the fact that many others demonstrated their samurai fortitude under fire (the same Togo with his headquarters stood on the open bridge of Mikasa during all the artillery battles of the Russian-Japanese War with his participation).

                        Maybe, but, judging by some testimonies of survivors from Orel, above 35-40 kb. The "frequency" of Japanese hits decreased sharply.

                        Naturally - after all, this was already beyond the then effective fire range of rapid-fire 6" artillery. Having become convinced in the battle in the Yellow Sea that heavy guns firing for hours at sufficiently long distances would not give him a decisive victory, in the artillery battle at Tsushima Togo relied on those battle distances where the fire of rapid-firing 6" guns will be effective and received a resounding victory over the Russian armored squadron, which was inferior in rapid-firing 6" artillery - the sinking in the Battle of Tsushima by artillery fire or finishing off the victims of four modern Russian battleships with torpedoes by torpedoes.

                        By the way, the owners of 4-12" in WWI quite rarely fired in full volleys.

                        The owners of 4 main battery guns in WWII were already outdated candidates for whipping boys, fighting back as best they could. Carriers of eight or more main battery guns were targeted with no less than four-gun half-volleys. There were, of course, understandable exceptions:

                        “At 12:47 Sturdee raised the signal to “open fire and begin battle” ... The shooting was carried out in half-volleys - two shells at a time - and was very slow due to the range and observation conditions, so the battlecruisers took 20 minutes to zero in."

                        Firstly, I hinted at the rate of fire of the Japanese 1" main battery in Tsushima.
                        At Tsushima, a decisive victory in the artillery battle was ensured primarily by the fire of 6" and 8" artillery of Japanese ships from those distances at which this fire was effective. If it were not for the overwhelming number of hits from 6" and 8" shells that disabled the artillery of Russian ships, caused multiple fires, made holes and destroyed superstructures and parts of the side not covered by waist armor, the Japanese would not have seen such an unconditional victory in an artillery battle.

                        With their casemate and deck-mounted 6" artillery, for the reasons noted above, the Japanese aimed much faster, and after shooting they gave such a density of rapid-fire artillery fire that Russian battleships of the Borodino type with 6" turret artillery simply could not provide technically.

                        In fact, by the evening of May 14/05, Orel had fired at least 2/3 of the 6" shells (having lost half of the artillery by that time).

                        God bless him with the fact that by the time the Tsushima battle ended, most of the 6" turret guns of the "Eagle" were not disabled by hits from 12" Japanese shells. What percentage of these “at least 2/3” of the 6” shells fired at the enemy did the Orel artillerymen shoot while Barr’s and Stroud’s rangefinders, artillery fire control devices and... Perepelkin’s sights were still aiming?

                        In 3, with the actual charge in the "land mines" is hardly 1 kg. there, no rate of fire would help.

                        The Tsushima artillery battle revealed many technical, tactical and organizational factors that pushed our squadron towards defeat. The uniqueness of Tsushima is that these multiple factors combined led not only to defeat, but to a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions for our fleet.

                        The design flaws of the fuses and shells were already enough to cause destruction. Those who strayed from the aiming line after a few shots with a full charge of sights were already enough to kill. The design and construction shortcomings of the Oslyabi and the Borodino-class battleships were already enough to cause defeat. All the technical factors together were already enough for a disaster.

                        The organizational and tactical efforts of the commander of the doomed campaign, Admiral Rozhdestvensky, superimposed on the catastrophe caused only by technology alone, were enough for the catastrophe to turn out to be unprecedented - the Almaz became the only large ship of the squadron that reached Vladivostok.

                        Of course, it is possible to rank the factors that led to an unprecedented catastrophe, but as many people are interested in Tsushima, there will probably be as many opinions about which set of factors were paramount, and which factors were “number sixteen.”

                        Dealing with these factors separately, without breaking polemical spears over which of them turned out to be more important and which were less important, is apparently the most constructive approach.
                      3. 0
                        17 February 2024 12: 47

                        The losses of the killed and wounded of the Japanese were not at all due to the high fragmentation and high-explosive effect of the Russian shells of that time, but to the fact that the Japanese did not shelter, in particular, the crews of 76 mm and small-caliber guns from unprotected combat posts under armor at those moments of the battles when they could NOT shoot and stood idle at their guns, and also

                        Those. when Russian gunners stand at the guns and suffer losses from Japanese hits, this proves the effective high-explosive and fragmentation effect of Japanese shells. When the Japanese stand at similar guns and suffer comparable losses from hits from Russian shells, this does not prove their fragmentation effect (with high-explosive shells everything is clear). Or when Togo kills or wounds everyone around him a couple of times, and by some miracle he himself remains alive. Please note that I am not trying to prove that Russian shells are at least as good as Japanese shells, unlike some. I am only drawing your attention to this phenomenon, which I do not undertake to explain.


                        Naturally - after all, this was already beyond the then effective fire range of rapid-fire 6" artillery. Having made sure

                        And even with any shooting, in any volleys.


                        The owners of 4 main battery guns in WWII were already outdated candidates for whipping boys, fighting back as best they could.

                        That's not the point. The pickpockets had 6 guns and three volleys at best, do you think this made it much easier for their opponents? You need to be able to shoot and hit. Have an appropriate fire control system. But here in REV it’s almost 0. Therefore, after 35-37 kb. for 6" even salvo firing, even with the whole side, gave little benefit. It’s still hard to see through binoculars. Even Japanese ones. And closer to 30 it was no longer necessary, so salvo firing was abandoned with the introduction of cartridge rapid fire.


                        At Tsushima, a decisive victory in the artillery battle was ensured primarily by the fire of the 6" and 8" artillery of the Japanese

                        It may very well be (although Packinham, Campbell, Fisher would not agree with this. Not to mention the crews of Oslyaby and Alexander III, and Borodino, perhaps), but I told you about something else. That the actual and technical rates of fire are far from the same thing, and the actual rate of fire of Russian guns in Tsushima could not be lower than that of the Japanese.


                        God bless him with the fact that by the time the Tsushima battle ended, most of the 6" turret guns of the "Eagle" were withdrawn from

                        Mostly 8" (according to Campbell, which not everyone agrees with now), but see above. This is not the point.


                        Dealing with these factors separately, without breaking polemical spears over which of them turned out to be more important and which were less important, is apparently the most constructive approach.

                        Let's say. But that is precisely why I would prefer not to “stick out” the same rate of fire. There is, however, as you yourself noted, a factor in many 8" and especially 6" hits. The latter became possible only due to the shorter combat distance on average compared to Shantung and Ulsan. And the Japanese were able to control the distance thanks to their speed advantage of 5 knots. This is where we need to start.

                        For comparison, Kamimura, in 4 hours of battle, having twice as many ships, 4 times more 8" guns, 2-3 knots more speed, did not achieve anything like that. With the same shells and fuses. That is. if Rozhdestvensky and Oslyabya had simply run from the Japanese all day from fog to fog at 13 knots, and Nebogatov with his “pension” had done whatever he wanted, they wouldn’t have been so drowned by the evening. This would not have fundamentally changed the result the next day. But in any case it would not be so shameful.

                        About fuses is a separate matter.
                      4. 0
                        17 February 2024 14: 54
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        Those. when Russian gunners stand at the guns and suffer losses from Japanese hits, this proves the effective high-explosive and fragmentation effect of Japanese shells. When the Japanese stand at similar guns and suffer comparable losses from hits from Russian shells, this does not prove their fragmentation effect (with high-explosive shells everything is clear). Or when Togo kills or wounds everyone around him a couple of times, and by some miracle he himself remains alive. Please note that I am not trying to prove that Russian shells are at least as good as Japanese shells, unlike some. I am only drawing your attention to this phenomenon, which I do not undertake to explain.

                        And I undertook to explain the statistical “phenomenon” that was once presented to the public: “A Russian shell, on average, killed more Japanese sailors than a Japanese shell killed Russian sailors,” with which some researchers of the issue tried to illustrate the almost superiority of Russian shells over Japanese ones. They tried to illustrate it not with fragmentation spectra (well, you need to understand the effect of fragmentation), but with statistics like this.

                        This “phenomenon” was due to the fact that those who were not currently participating in artillery battles began to be hidden under armor, and the Japanese fought the entire Russian-Japanese war standing at open posts and at deck guns under artillery fire, even if the battle distance did not allow firing from 76 mm and small-caliber guns.

                        That's not the point. The pickpockets had 6 guns and volleys of three at best, do you think this made it much easier for their opponents? You need to be able to shoot and hit.

                        One of the mistakes that the British attribute to the shell-shocked Lansdorff is that instead of finishing off Exeter with concentrated fire, he divided the fire of the main caliber turrets and thereby reduced the firing efficiency of his “pocket battleship”. The Germans deny everything and declare that the entire battle at each moment of time they fired at only one target with the main caliber, shooting from two towers in a “ladder” manner, and therefore the British thought something about the division of fire from their main battery towers. 4-gun 220-254 mm main gun turrets on pickpockets would have looked better, but it would have been too radical for the rather conservative Germans.
                        But here in REV it’s almost 0. Therefore, after 35-37 kb. for 6" even salvo firing, even with the whole side, did little. It’s still hard to see through binoculars. Even Japanese ones. And closer to 30 it was no longer necessary, so salvo firing was abandoned with the introduction of rapid-fire cartridges.

                        In telescopes. We are talking about the differences in the Japanese and Russian 6" caliber shooting at Tsushima.

                        https://topwar.ru/183235-cusima-faktory-tochnosti-japonskoj-artillerii.html

                        “An effective solution in the battle on July 28, 1904 in the Yellow Sea was proposed by the senior artillery officer of the Mikasa, K. Kato, adding the following improvements to salvo firing:

                        • Fire all guns on only one target.
                        • Strict adherence to uniform (within the same caliber) shooting parameters.
                        • Observation of the fall of shells from fore-mars.
                        • Centralized adjustment of shooting parameters based on the results of previous shots.

                        [...]

                        Zeroing was usually carried out with 6 ”guns of the bow group. For better visibility in conditions of poor visibility or concentration of fire from several vessels, 3-4 guns fired in a salvo using the same parameters. With a long distance and good observation conditions, the volley could be carried out by a "ladder" with different distance settings for each gun. At a shorter distance, single sighting shots could also be used.

                        A volley on the defeat was made by all possible barrels of the same caliber.

                        Commands to fire were given by the fire manager using an electric roar or voice. At the command “prepare for a salvo,” aiming was carried out at the target. At the command "volley" a shot was fired."

                        You can argue with the author, prove to him that neither zeroing 6" with 3-4 gun salvos, nor subsequent shooting to kill after covering with "all possible barrels of the same caliber" gave the Japanese advantages in comparison with the Russian approach with zeroing with single shots from the bow 6" turret firing side of Borodino-class battleships.

                        but I told you about something else. That the actual and technical rates of fire are far from the same thing, and the actual rate of fire of Russian guns in Tsushima could not be lower than that of the Japanese.

                        When firing to kill, after covering the firing side with all 6" cannons, the Japanese usually fired at least 3 salvos per minute. And according to the Russian descriptions, “one cable is short, one cable is overshot, then, after a quarter of a minute - a hit,” they also fired 4 salvos per minute Russian 6" turrets did not provide a practical rate of fire of more than 2 rounds per minute per gun simply technically.

                        And the Japanese were able to control the distance thanks to their speed advantage of 5 knots. This is where we need to start.

                        Is it worth arguing about what is more important, the Japanese advantage in speed of 5 knots or their superiority in methods of organizing sighting and lethal fire with medium caliber? Both of them together gave a well-known result. If it were not for the improvement in the methods of organizing artillery fire according to the recipes introduced after July 28, 1904 from the senior artillery officer Mikasa K. Kato, Togo at Tsushima might have done little better than Kamimura in the battle of August 1, 1904 - as a result, a significant part of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron would have broken through to Vladivostok. And so everything added up gave exactly the Tsushima we know.
                      5. 0
                        16 February 2024 16: 41
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        There, the destruction above the overhead lines and superstructures is not visible. Traces of fire are visible. And the holes are not visible. But there was clearly a hole. But it was in the overhead line area, or even lower.

                        One can, of course, discuss what kind of technical revolution our admirals slept through this time, using the example of the Moscow tragedy - the revolution of ship-based air defense missile systems capable of intercepting transonic and even supersonic air targets flying 3-5 meters above wave crests, the revolution of single-post air defense missile systems with total shooting errors of 3 mrad and less, the revolution of anti-boat remotely controlled stabilized guns with thermal imaging and television aiming channels, laser rangefinders, ballistic computers and even smaller shooting errors than high-speed single-post ZAKs.

                        But the fact is that the admirals once again overslept. Just as they slept through the revolution of real high-explosive and truly effective armor-piercing shells, basic optical rangefinders, gun optical sights and new methods of artillery firing for naval artillery by 1904. Just as they slept through the shipborne small-caliber anti-aircraft guns and universal medium-caliber guns by 1941. .

                        In my remarks I get too bogged down in details. This latest video says it without excessive technical detail, without being too rivetting, but it says it to the point:



                        Traditionally, today our Navy has turned out to be the most useless type of armed forces in the war. And as I already noted, the “tradition” turns exactly 170 years old this year.
                      6. 0
                        17 February 2024 13: 01
                        I repeat. According to Klimov (he is also a zradophile), even in the original version the Fort can shoot down missiles like Harpoon and the like. I won’t argue with him here.

                        You just don’t need to invest a penny and then demand a ruble. This has already happened. When the ships were in armed reserve half the time. When the state-owned shipyards hired men from the plow. When contractors were selected based solely on the minimum price. When they whined with the developers of sights and rangefinders. When they saved on the development and production of ammunition and modernization of ships. Add to taste.

                        And what do you want from the KChF now? He has no one to drown. There is no political will to set the task of blocking Ukrainian ports (I don’t want to discuss the feasibility). Are you so sure that American ships would now easily fight off the latest BEC? I'm not sure about that.
                      7. 0
                        17 February 2024 15: 29
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        I repeat. According to Klimov (he is also a zradophile), even in the original version the Fort can shoot down missiles like Harpoon and the like. I won’t argue with him here.

                        According to the “zradophile” Klimov and the Osu-MA, it was possible to adjust the ships so that it, with its “passport” 25-meter lower limit for hitting air targets, could intercept the Harpoon anti-ship missiles. But let’s still focus not on Klimov’s words about Lefties capable of shoeing a flea, but on the “passport” characteristics of the air defense system.

                        What is stated for the S-300F? The lower limit of the affected area is 25 meters.

                        For S-300FM? The lower limit of the affected area by the 48N6E missile is 10 meters, and by the 48N6E2 missile - 7 meters.

                        You just don’t need to invest a penny and then demand a ruble.

                        Compliance with passport specifications must be required. According to these characteristics, neither the S-300F nor the S-300FM are suitable for intercepting transonic anti-ship missiles flying 3 meters above wave crests.

                        Has this worried Russian admirals for several decades? Apparently not. Just like domestic admirals were not worried about the quality of Russian shells on the eve of the Russo-Japanese War. They never allocated money either to test the effects of existing shells before the war, or to develop and purchase real high-explosive shells with a high explosive filling factor.

                        I repeat, the domestic naval tradition of thoughtlessly maintaining a decades-long military-technical lag behind the advanced fleets in certain “non-ceremonial” areas is no less than 170 years old. There is no reflection on this issue in the Navy leadership. Even today, the only people making public noise about “the next Tsushima is soon” are retirees who have NOT risen to the rank of admiral, like Klimov. “Something is wrong at the conservatory” (C) and for a very, very long time.
                      8. 0
                        17 February 2024 13: 19
                        And I’ll add - when an armored corvette is armed like a frigate so that the armor belt goes under the water, then they call it a frigate, and then a cruiser of the 1st rank - this is also out of greed. Because in fact, at that moment they didn’t want to build corvettes, let alone frigates. Similarly, 10 6" instead of 6 initially on Vityaz and Rynda. That is, there is clearly a need for strength at sea, but there is clearly a pity for money for it. Well, what do you want?
              2. 0
                5 February 2024 07: 25
                Wooden shells, blown through during WWII
      2. 0
        2 February 2024 09: 12
        In relation to Isaev, we can say that this is not his historical period and not his topic.

        And what is his topic, the one in which he talks about two battleships?
        1. 0
          12 February 2024 12: 06
          If this is the Isaev I’m thinking about, about twenty years ago on ru.military.navy he would definitely have argued with you about this ;)
          1. 0
            12 February 2024 12: 34
            About what? What is the battleship Sevastopol - the Parisian Commune - are they two different in his perception?
            1. 0
              12 February 2024 15: 41
              About how this is “not his period.”
              1. 0
                12 February 2024 15: 43
                You mean not him? What is it then? It seemed to me like WW2.
                1. 0
                  12 February 2024 15: 59
                  He also quite discussed the RN war at that time.
      3. 0
        7 February 2024 13: 20
        There are vague suspicions that no one will ever agree on anything on the topic of the Russo-Japanese War. Here, here in Russia. laughing laughing laughing
        Let a hundred flowers bloom...
        I sometimes write documents and I can say for sure that they are often written in order to confuse the issue so that no one has the desire to deal with it later. I don't think much has changed. So the documents need to be checked a hundred times.
    5. 0
      8 February 2024 10: 01
      With all due respect to Isaev, practice has confirmed basically what is written here, which is not much different from the opinion that our specialists formed after the REV. Compare the number of surviving guns at Mikasa and at Orel after Tsushima. And the likelihood of drowning with the start of a new battle. And this despite the fact that Borodino, it would seem, in terms of buoyancy reserves, were better protected than the “English”.
  2. +8
    30 January 2024 06: 06
    the price of a high-explosive 305-mm projectile is 155 rubles. 00 kop.

    For comparison, the cost of an English high-explosive 12'' projectile complete with charge was about £100, i.e. about a thousand rubles.
    But for the Japanese and the British, such a price was not too painful, since the cost of a ton of displacement of an English-built battleship was much less than the cost of a ton of displacement of a Russian-built battleship.
    The same Mikasa cost ridiculous, by our standards, money.
    As a result, while adopting expensive shells, the British and Japanese still spent significantly less on a battleship (with armor, vehicles, weapons and ammunition) than ours.
    However, if we take into account the limited solvency of the Navy Ministry, the need for savings, the tactical views of the fleet and the general level of domestic industry, this mistake, while remaining unforgivable, becomes at least understandable.

    You couldn’t say it better, dear Andrey, PPKS.
    1. +7
      30 January 2024 08: 38
      Good day, dear Valentine!
      Glad you liked it, and thanks for the cost of the British shell!
      1. +6
        30 January 2024 19: 55
        Hello, dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        thank you for the cost of the British shell!

        You're welcome, deeply respected colleague.

        Here are a couple more numbers for comparison.
        Russian 6'' gun manufactured by the Obukhov plant for "Rostislav" - 13 rubles
        6'' Armstrong gun "A 91", manufactured in England at the Armstrong factory (1898) - 9 rubles
        The same weapon, made in Italy in the arsenal of La Spezia (1898) - 12 rubles

        This is the cost of guns without a machine tool, prices were converted from liras to rubles according to the gold parity of currencies in 1899.

        And here’s the cost of the main caliber gun “Rostislav” (also without a machine tool) - 55 rubles.
        Yes, here is the cost of a Russian cast iron 12'' projectile (without equipment) - 91,50 rubles Here is the explanation why they were imposed on the sailors. In 1899, instead of one high-explosive one, you could buy 100 cast iron ones for £16.
        1. +1
          31 January 2024 08: 51
          And again - thank you very much, dear Valentin, I’ll copy it into my notebook :))))
        2. 0
          7 February 2024 13: 24
          Good numbers. But they have everything: availability of minerals, transport, labor productivity and costs. England and, in general, Germany and France were in very favorable conditions. Simply because everything has been at hand for a long time.
          And Mother Russey didn’t even have its own gold, silver, or even iron for a very long time.
          Japan came out of the war without any pants. Nikolasha didn’t have the idea that if you’re fighting, you have to fight. And sooner or later the Japanese could easily be kicked out of the continent.
          1. 0
            12 February 2024 11: 54
            In Russia, first of all, there was no such volume of production. The British also worked for export. Economies of scale. In Italy, a 6" gun cost about the same as in Russia.
    2. +1
      30 January 2024 15: 02
      “The same Mikasa cost ridiculous, by our standards, money.”
      you can’t name the figure - as far as I remember, ours were about 1000 rubles/t.
      1. +6
        30 January 2024 17: 44
        Quote: DrEng02
        you can’t name the figure - as far as I remember, ours were about 1000 rubles/t.

        Please.
        Here is a table, you can compare the cost per ton of displacement of battleships built in Italy, France, Russia, the USA and England.
        As you can see, Mikasa is 510 rubles versus Peresvet’s 908 rubles.
        1. +2
          30 January 2024 18: 03
          Thank you very much! It’s very indicative - where is the cost of a bookmaker with such a difference.... hi
          1. +1
            30 January 2024 19: 56
            Quote: DrEng02
            It is very indicative - where is the cost of a bookmaker with such a difference.

            Exactly !
        2. -1
          12 February 2024 11: 58
          Interestingly, Tsessarevich was not built in Russia, but of the foreign-built ships it is the most expensive on the list.
          1. 0
            13 February 2024 03: 31
            Quote: Dimax-Nemo
            Tsessarevich was not built in Russia, but of the foreign-built ships it is the most expensive on the list.

            Judging by the known facts, the order of the battleship in France was dictated by political expediency.
            There is reason to believe that among the beneficiaries of the shipyard where the Tsarevich was built were very influential politicians.
            This, apparently, explains the lenient attitude towards the French, who handed over to us an unfinished battleship, and they missed the contractual deadlines for construction. It would seem that the shipyard would be fined, but no...
            They wiped themselves off and endured it.
            1. 0
              13 February 2024 07: 45
              Yeah, we already needed him in Port Arthur.
              Who else would build for us? The British? Don't be ridiculous. Germans? It's also not a fact. And also probable opponents. Moreover, the naval forces began to consider them as opponents much earlier than the ground forces.
      2. +1
        30 January 2024 18: 40
        Quote: DrEng02
        “The same Mikasa cost ridiculous, by our standards, money.”
        you can’t name the figure - as far as I remember, ours were about 1000 rubles/t.

        in 1898 its cost was 880 thousand pounds sterling
        for comparison:
        Squadron battleship "Sevastopol" (laid down in 1892, entered service in 1900) The cost of construction was 991.916 pounds, or 86 pounds per ton
        battleship "Oslyabya" (laid down in 1895, entered service in 1903). Construction cost - 1.198.731 pounds, or 83 pounds per ton
        Squadron battleship "Borodino" (laid down in 1900, entered service in 1904) - Cost of construction - 1.540.169 pounds, or 107 pounds per ton. The same type "Eagle", built on Galerny Island, had a unit cost of 100 pounds per ton. For comparison, the Dreadnought cost 1 pounds
        1. +1
          30 January 2024 20: 06
          Quote from Kartograph
          in 1898 its cost was 880 thousand pounds sterling

          Not enough.
          Perhaps it's just the cost of the body and the machine. Without equipment, equipment, useful things, weapons and ammunition.
          1. 0
            31 January 2024 08: 29
            Quote: Comrade
            Quote from Kartograph
            in 1898 its cost was 880 thousand pounds sterling

            Not enough.
            Perhaps it's just the cost of the body and the machine. Without equipment, equipment, useful things, weapons and ammunition.

            The British built it cheaper and faster than anyone else
  3. 0
    30 January 2024 06: 11
    Until 1907, there were no high-explosive 12" shells in the RIF. There were "commons", which in Russia for some reason were called "high-explosive".
    1. 0
      12 February 2024 12: 01
      English common 12" at that time had 9,4% explosive content versus 3,5% Russian.
  4. +2
    30 January 2024 06: 30
    the price of an armor-piercing 305-mm projectile is 535 rubles. 80 kop. (without charge cost and, as far as I understand, without fuse)
    Does the term “charge” here mean the combat equipment (filling) of the projectile itself or the propellant charge in the caps?
    1. +5
      30 January 2024 08: 39
      Quote: Pushkowed
      Does the term “charge” here mean the combat equipment (filling) of the projectile itself or the propellant charge in the caps?

      As far as I understand, the price is only for a loaded explosive projectile without a fuse, a projectile in caps and cases for storing them
  5. +2
    30 January 2024 08: 03
    I didn’t really understand the following phrase in the article: “Our high-explosive 305-mm shells with which the fleet went to Tsushima were not filled with pyroxylin, but with gunpowder.” As far as I know, the basis of almost any smokeless powder is pyroxylin (trinitrocellulose), sometimes in combination with nitroglycerin (cordite, ballistite) and/or nitroguanidine. So what is the Author complaining about? Another thing is that the Japanese used “shimoza” (picric acid, trinitrophenol), which is a much more powerful explosive... Although “shimoza” also had its drawbacks (until the shells began to be tinned on the inside, iron picrate was formed over time , an extremely unstable connection, with all the obvious consequences...))
    1. +3
      30 January 2024 08: 41
      Quote: glk63
      As far as I know, the basis of almost any smokeless powder is pyroxylin (trinitrocellulose), sometimes in combination with nitroglycerin (cordite, ballistite) and/or nitroguanidine. So what is the Author complaining about?

      Please read the previous part. Especially the place where it is indicated (in the table) that the 305-mm high-explosive projectile contained 10 kg of wet pyroxylin, but only 6 kg of smokeless powder.
      1. +1
        30 January 2024 08: 58
        I still don’t understand) What is the base of smokeless powder? Not pyroxylin, or what? Maybe if you wet those same 6 kg, you’ll get 10?)
        1. 0
          30 January 2024 09: 06
          Quote: glk63
          I still don't understand)

          Sorry, but the previous article provided comprehensive explanations.
          Gunpowder as an explosive in a projectile is used in granules, which is necessary for rapid combustion. If you try to insert a powder bomb into a projectile, the projectile will explode when the powder is not completely burned.
          Accordingly, part of the shell chamber is occupied by gunpowder, and part by air. And wet pyroxylin is a checker, so more wet pyroxylin fits into the same volume than gunpowder based on it
          1. +1
            30 January 2024 09: 07
            And... or do you mean gelatinized pyroxylin, since smokeless powder simply has a low density?
            1. 0
              30 January 2024 09: 12
              Quote: glk63
              Does smokeless powder have low density?

              There is a concept of “true density,” that is, the density of a substance. in pyroxylin powder it is to a certain extent similar to pyroxylin. And there is the concept of “gravimetric density” - this is the density of gunpowder, taking into account its storage in granules.
              That is, if we take a granule of gunpowder and measure its density, it will be similar to a pyroxylin block (true density), but since the powder granules will occupy only part of the volume, and the rest is occupied by air, the gravimetric density of gunpowder is significantly lower than pyroxylin
              1. +1
                30 January 2024 09: 14
                Yes, thank you, I understood what was meant) It’s just that the phrase in the text sounded like pyroxylin and smokeless gunpowder are different explosives)
                1. +2
                  30 January 2024 09: 21
                  Quote: glk63
                  It’s just that the phrase in the text sounded like pyroxylin and smokeless powder are different explosives)

                  So they are different, although there is a certain relatedness and similarity between them
                  1. 0
                    30 January 2024 09: 25
                    Yes, in essence - the same thing, not counting some additives to smokeless powder) But it doesn’t matter anymore
                    1. 0
                      30 January 2024 10: 50
                      Quote: glk63
                      Yes, essentially the same thing

                      Pyroxylin detonates, and gunpowder burns
        2. +1
          30 January 2024 18: 18
          Quote: glk63
          What is the base of smokeless powder?

          Dear colleague, as far as I understand, pure pyroxylin for making gunpowder was quite strongly phlegmatized, which worsened the brisance.
        3. 0
          1 February 2024 19: 38
          It was smokeless gunpowder (the same was used in rifle cartridges), which, unlike wet pyroxylin, does not belong to the category of high explosives. The wet pyroxylin detonated. Gunpowder simply exploded. Let me give a definition of the term in advance:

          Detonation is a combustion mode in which a shock wave propagates through a substance, initiating chemical combustion reactions, which in turn support the movement of the shock wave due to the heat released in exothermic reactions. A complex consisting of a shock wave and a zone of exothermic chemical reactions behind it propagates through the substance at supersonic speed and is called a detonation wave.

          The detonation speed of wet pyroxylin is 6 - 7 km/s.
  6. +2
    30 January 2024 08: 51
    There is a remarkable period in the history of France called the “Naval Confusion.” Unfortunately, the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries turned out to be the same for the Russian fleet. In my deep conviction, the role of the Russo-Japanese War in world history is seriously underestimated.
    The disaster with the shells is just one sad episode in a very sad story.
    Regarding the difference in the cost of shells. Firstly, the mass of any product in those days had a very (too) serious influence on the cost, because the entire economy then passed under the shadow of Her Majesty’s “harsh price.” Secondly, the technology for manufacturing an armor-piercing shell shell was much more complicated than for a land mine.
    Well, inattention to testing was a widespread feature not only of Russian shipbuilding. Suffice it to recall the history of the 6" Canet.
  7. +8
    30 January 2024 08: 55
    Quote: glk63
    pyroxylin (trinitrocellulose) sometimes in combination with nitroglycerin (cordite, ballistitis

    In gunpowder, pyroxylin is specially mixed with all sorts of rubbish to slow down combustion. Pure pyroxylin can detonate. The difference in the speed of the process: half a meter per second, the speed of propagation of the flame front during the combustion of self-respecting smokeless gunpowder, and 5-7 KILOMETERS per second, the speed of the posttonation shock wave.
    When equipping a projectile with gunpowder, the projectile glass does not fly apart with a primary speed of fragments of 15-20M, but, like a condom, bursts with pleasure laughing.
    1. +2
      30 January 2024 09: 14
      Quote: Grossvater
      When equipping a projectile with gunpowder, the projectile glass does not fly apart with a primary speed of fragments of 15-20M, but, like a condom, bursts with pleasure

      You need to remember this :)))))
  8. +2
    30 January 2024 09: 04
    Things were no better in the artillery of the Ground Army.
    1. +3
      30 January 2024 09: 14
      Quote: hohol95
      Things were no better in the artillery of the Ground Army.

      I fully admit that land art is simply beyond my interests
      1. +3
        30 January 2024 10: 42
        This war exposed ALL the shortcomings of the Navy and Land Army of the Russian Empire.
        From the quality of artillery shells to the supply of food to troops in such a distant theater of operations.
        1. +2
          30 January 2024 15: 05
          Nothing surprising - a sharp change in technical equipment and configuration hi
          1. +3
            30 January 2024 17: 44
            Harsh?
            Maybe part of the blame lies with the slowness of those who were responsible for the rearmament of the army and navy?
            They apparently "lived in the early 19th century."
            We did everything slowly, saving every penny. And hoping for purchases abroad.
            1. +1
              31 January 2024 08: 50
              Quote: hohol95
              We did everything slowly, saving every penny.

              Well, not all of them. For example, they switched to Belleville even before the British. They switched to Krupp armor quite hastily, without sparing any expense on unplanned expenses - at first the Germans said that the plant could cope without modernization, and then, when the contract was signed, it suddenly became clear that EMNIP needed to be modernized, costing about three million. The Admiral General swore for a long time (especially since they were still trying to push hydrogen equipment under his breath), but nevertheless he found the money... Whatever one may say, all our new EBRs from the Victory had Kruppa armor, while the Japanese - only Mikasa
              1. 0
                31 January 2024 09: 27
                Only “Krupp steel” did not become the key to success.
                1. +1
                  31 January 2024 11: 29
                  Quote: hohol95
                  Only “Krupp steel” was not the key to success

                  Who can argue? Just for the sake of objectivity, you need to understand that the Navy Ministry did many things efficiently and on time. Alas, not all of them.
                  1. 0
                    31 January 2024 12: 23
                    Perhaps not many things, but some things.
                    Forgive me for my amateurish look.
                    Although the Minister of Finance and many august persons and “merchant manufacturers” should have been “flogged and impaled”!
                    And after them, deal with the admiral corps.
              2. -1
                31 January 2024 13: 09
                “Well, not all of them.” if we return to the 12/40 gun, then there were no problems with its strength, and the Japanese at Shatung lost several (like 5?) main battery barrels from explosions....
            2. 0
              7 February 2024 13: 28
              What else is there? We had a fleet for a long time. There were unspent supplies. Something needs to be done with them. Especially considering the savings, due to which all this was not shot during the exercises. And the Japanese created the fleet here and now. From scratch and immediately modern and homogeneous. And they used it for its intended purpose. And the shells there were appropriate. Simply because there were no others.
    2. +2
      30 January 2024 09: 19
      Well, the Japanese didn’t shine either, except perhaps at the end of the play, with 11” under the PA. In addition, the nuclear war is 200% naval, the very fact of the start of land battles meant the unconditional loss of the war. However, even with the most successful course and end of hostilities , the goal of the war: obtaining cost-effective access to ice-free seas, could not be achieved.To do this, it was necessary to occupy Japan, and this is completely beyond the bounds.
      In general, it seems to me that both our rulers before the REV and the German ones before WWII did not look at the globe.
      1. +6
        30 January 2024 10: 31
        The defeat of Japan on land meant the collapse of its plans on the mainland, for which this war was started. By retaining Port Arthur and Dalniy, Russia received/retained access to ice-free seas, for any war always ends in peace. But I don’t understand why to occupy Japan. Is it really not a victory without a “flag over the Reichstag”?
      2. +2
        30 January 2024 10: 53
        The Japanese did not shine.
        But their supply routes were shorter.
        And the army was personnel, and not made up of mobilized reservists like the Russians.
        1. 0
          7 February 2024 13: 31
          The Japanese army and navy were, first of all, LITERATE. Just in the sense of reading and writing. And some of our sailors were taught literacy in the navy. Enthusiastic officers. Because they couldn’t see such a disgrace.
          Here, teach an illiterate gunner in the sense of arithmetic. This is not for you personally, but in general.
          1. +1
            7 February 2024 14: 58
            Did the “gentlemen of the officers of your Brod” have such excellent literacy?
            Very doubtful.
            1. +1
              7 February 2024 16: 09
              Hard to say. Nowadays they would be considered “academically educated.” French, English, dancing, etc. They drank vodka and wiped themselves off with their sleeves. Smart people knew how to conduct conversations. Including the ladies. Some even did science at a good level. But I think that they were inferior to the Japanese officers in all respects. Purely, like military specialists in naval affairs. I don’t remember where, I briefly read an opinion conveyed by one of the British from the Japanese regarding our fleet. We are judging here. But the Japanese thought simply: the Russians don’t know how to maneuver and don’t know how to shoot. We will defeat them in any case. Which is what they did once or twice. Therefore, Togo simply changed course in full view of the Russians. And he won immediately. And there is nothing to invent here about Togo’s bad maneuvers and Rozhdestvensky’s brilliant plan. Everything is as simple as shelling pears.
      3. +4
        30 January 2024 12: 23
        Quote: Grossvater
        Well, the Japanese didn't shine either, except at the end of the play, with 11" under the PA.

        There was cooperative mat.
        For for some reason our army men decided that the Japanese would not use guns with a caliber of more than 152 mm against the fortifications. And they began, in the name of Her Majesty's economy, to reduce the thickness of the walls and ceilings of long-term defensive structures, which in the original (European) version were designed to resist 280-mm shells.
        And this despite the fact that Japan’s presence of 280-mm mortars has been known since 1891.
        ... when designing the Port Arthur fortifications, they were based on an official certificate given by the Asian part of the then General Staff, according to which the Japanese assumed the absence of artillery over 15 cm in caliber. To meet economic conditions, this led to the abandonment of the thicknesses of concrete vaults of casemated buildings of 1,5–1,8–2,4 m, then accepted by the engineering department, and a reduction in the thicknesses of vaults and walls in Arthurian fortifications by 0,3 m. But during production work, due to the same economic considerations, the local authorities allowed military engineers to reduce the thickness of the vaults by another 0,3 m, and in some places by 0,6 m. As a result, on the most important fortifications, which were subjected to heavy bombardment, the thickness of the vaults in residential barracks and other important defense agencies turned out to be only 0,91 m. There were also complaints about the quality of concrete, but the competent commission revealed the injustice of these complaints. But in any case, the 0,9-m vaults could withstand shells of no more than 15-cm caliber.
        © Yakovlev. History of fortresses.
        At the same time, the fort belt was compressed to the point of indecency - so that the outer quarters of the main fleet base were within the reach of not only artillery, but even riflemen.
        As a result, Port Arthur did not satisfy, first of all, the theoretical conditions of a normal fortress of that time, since some of the outer fortifications were separated from the city at a distance less than the minimum limit - 4 km; since fort No. 3 was 2,5 km away from it, and forts No. 4 and 5 were even 1,5 km from the outskirts of the new city. Even if we consider only the eastern basin, where the Russian squadron was hiding, as a protected area, then it turns out that the line of land forts was only 1 km from the border in places (for example, forts No. 2-3).
  9. +3
    30 January 2024 09: 24
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: hohol95
    Things were no better in the artillery of the Ground Army.

    I fully admit that land art is simply beyond my interests

    It sucks, it sucks! It came back to haunt WWII. However, then perhaps only the Germans were good.
  10. +2
    30 January 2024 09: 55
    ...savings of more than 109 thousand rubles, and not just one-time, but for every new battleship under construction - this is just some kind of fairy tale!

    However, if we take into account the limited solvency of the Navy Ministry, the need for savings, the tactical views of the fleet and the general level of domestic industry, this mistake, while remaining unforgivable, becomes at least understandable.


    Questions are not on the topic of the article, but:
    the question of the development of the "bureaucratic" class - today - is an order of magnitude higher than then ...
    if we see the results of the “work” of officials, then why are we not doing anything today, because the result will be similar?
    all decisions remain with officials - and no reasonable actions can be expected from them...
  11. +1
    30 January 2024 10: 06
    Quote: Dedok
    if we see the results of the “work” of officials, then why are we not doing anything today, because the result will be similar?

    Hm! I would advise you to start reading the same Melnikov. I am far from idealizing the work of the current management system, but we are still far from the department of the Prince of Tsushima, Thank God.
    1. +7
      30 January 2024 10: 52
      Quote: Grossvater
      I am far from idealizing the work of the current management system, but we are still far from the department of the Prince of Tsushima, Thank God.

      I'm afraid that it's exactly the opposite - we are now far from the Naval Ministry of those years.
      1. +1
        30 January 2024 13: 16
        Do you seriously think that the previous Ministry was more effective? Even despite Tsushima?
        1. +6
          30 January 2024 14: 09
          Quote: Trapper7
          Do you seriously think that the previous Ministry was more effective?

          In fact, yes, that’s exactly what I think.
          Quote: Trapper7
          Even despite Tsushima?

          Since the times of the USSR, our fleet management has experienced much more serious upheavals than the ground forces and the Air Force, and those... well, you can see for yourself what is happening in the Northern Military District. I have all the respect for our soldiers, but the command did not rise from the Kuropatkin level. And with the fleet, after its reassignment to the districts and the withdrawal of most of the naval aviation...
          1. +4
            30 January 2024 14: 49
            “Since the times of the USSR, our fleet management has experienced much more serious upheavals than the ground forces and the Air Force,”
            In addition to your thoughts, I’ll add that in the USSR, fleet management was, to put it mildly, not very good, even in the era of Kuznetsov, I don’t even want to talk about others... and under the tsar (with all the shortcomings) they didn’t particularly lag behind in the introduction of innovations, they had their own serious achievements, such as Novik, Krab, minecraft or flying boats....
            1. +5
              30 January 2024 15: 26
              Quote: DrEng02
              and under the tsar (with all the shortcomings) they did not lag behind in the introduction of innovations, they also had their own serious achievements, such as Novik, Krab, mining or flying boats....

              I agree, but under the USSR there were also supersonic anti-ship missiles, submarines, SSGNs and a bunch of other interesting things. Tu-16s with KS-1 alone are worth it...
              1. 0
                30 January 2024 15: 43
                “I agree, but under the USSR there were also supersonic anti-ship missiles, SSNs, SSGNs and a bunch of other interesting things. The Tu-16 and KS-1 alone are worth something.”
                1) SSGN is a mistake, wasted money, with which it was possible to build at least 6 AB in displacement (underwater) - 575 kt, if you take 949/949A (300 kt), 659 (30 kt), 670M (30 kt), 670 (55 ct), 675 (160 ct), hi
                2) As for KS-1 - for a strike on single ships it’s quite enough to break through the AB’s defenses - alas...
                3) supersonic anti-ship missiles were super only when based on aircraft, the Tu-22M with the X-22 is serious and very mobile!
                1. +4
                  30 January 2024 16: 26
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  LARC is a mistake, wasted money, which could have been used to build at least 6 AB in terms of displacement (underwater)

                  Well, you are an engineer, why are you using underwater displacement?
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  As for the KS-1 - it’s enough to strike single ships, break through the AB’s defenses - alas...

                  It was easy in those years.
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  supersonic anti-ship missiles were super only when based on aircraft

                  The commanders of the TAVKRs, who practiced strikes with their Basalts on the US AUS of the 6th Fleet through the command center from Legend two or three times a day in the Mediterranean, would not agree with you
                  1. 0
                    30 January 2024 16: 51
                    “Well, you’re an engineer, why are you taking underwater displacement?”
                    You will be surprised, but the submarine submerges, so it is the underwater that is important.... by the way - the tonnage of a submarine always costs more...
                    "Easy in those years." adopted for service in 1953, in terms of flight characteristics it is close to the Mig-15, which the Americans shot down in Korea in battle. So a CD flying in a straight line is a training target, see the British experience against the V-1.
                    “You wouldn’t agree” they were preparing to fight with what they had, which is right! The question is different - how realistic was it for these missile launchers to penetrate the Tomcat defenses without the use of nuclear weapons... hi
                    1. +1
                      30 January 2024 18: 46
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      You’ll be surprised, but the submarine submerges, so it’s the underwater that’s important....

                      Just don’t tell the engineers about your discoveries - they will laugh.
                      Project 949A had a weight of 14700 tons. This included the hull, power plants, weapons, etc. TAVKR project 1143.5 has 46 tons roughly. But you add almost 500 thousand tons of water to Project 949A and compare the resulting value with the TAKR... Comparing the weight of hull structures, equipment, etc. with sea water is, of course, a lot.
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      By the way, submarine tonnage always costs more.

                      Another conversation, but for some reason you took up displacement
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      "Easy in those years." adopted for service in 1953, in terms of flight characteristics it is close to the Mig-15, which the Americans shot down in Korea in battle. So a CD flying in a straight line is a training target, see the British experience against the V-1.

                      You better take an interest in the performance of British ships in 1982 against attacks by Argentinean skyhawks. And how difficult targets were for American air defense kamikazes, despite the fact that KS-1 is a much more difficult target.
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      The question is different - how realistic was it for these missile defense systems to penetrate the defense of the Tomcats?

                      Just before that, explain (to yourself, everything is already clear to me) where the Tomcat, which entered service in 1974, will come from in the late fifties...
                      1. 0
                        31 January 2024 13: 38
                        “Just don’t tell the engineers about your discoveries - they’ll laugh.” I discussed this problem with one of those who writes technical specifications for submarines, the idea of ​​taking into account underwater displacement is not mine... so learn to understand other people’s thoughts, sometimes it’s useful, especially when your opinion is purely compilative, and mine is technically competent...
                        “Comparing the weight of hull structures, equipment, etc. with seawater is, of course, a lot.” It’s you who don’t understand the simple fact that the submarine submerges and the requirements for the hull are the same not only below the waterline, but also above...
                        “but for some reason you took up displacement” because I took it because I understand...
                        “against attacks by the skyhawks of Argentina” yes I read, they simply missed the mark, like the attacks on Sheffield... when they were ready, all the attacks were 0... By the way, why is Argentina so small? already hostile? feel
                        "And how difficult targets were for American air defense kamikazes, despite the fact that KS-1 is a much more difficult target." more difficult than the maneuvering Mig-15?
                        "Where will the Tomcat come from in the late fifties, which entered service in 1974..."
                        "In summer 1972 years, tests of the F-14 on aircraft carriers were completed. Industrial supplies for the fleet have begun in October of the same year. "
                        And since the late 50s, F-4s have been in service with the AB, would they have allowed the Tu-16 to get within 90 km of the AB? Would you allow us to accompany the target for a few minutes before capturing the warhead?
            2. +2
              30 January 2024 17: 46
              "Novik", who developed it?
              Whose mechanisms set it in motion?
              1. +2
                30 January 2024 22: 43
                "Novik", who developed it?
                Whose mechanisms set it in motion?

                The main components of the mechanical power plant were manufactured at the German plant in Stettin. Three main steam turbines "Curtis-AEG-Vulcan" with a power of 10700 hp each. were located: two on board in the bow and one in the aft engine rooms.
                1. 0
                  7 February 2024 13: 33
                  This was done, of course, with the help of the Germans. But for some reason the Germans, having all our ideas and a ready-made ship, did not build themselves such things. The British taught them this later...
              2. 0
                31 January 2024 08: 28
                Quote: hohol95
                "Novik", who developed it?
                Whose mechanisms set it in motion?

                Of course you are right) on the one hand.
                But let's look at it from another perspective - whose technical specifications? Whose main ideas and views? And then we built dozens of them at home, but for some reason Germany didn’t and built all sorts of, excuse me, rubbish.
                That is, we can say that our ideas for developing the fleet were definitely no worse than theirs)
      2. 0
        1 February 2024 20: 19
        In matters of construction and technical equipment of the Navy, everything has been bad for us for 170 years. In 1854, they self-flooded in the Sevastopol Bay, in 1905 - the catastrophic Tsushima defeat, in 2022, the Moscow RKR was unable to fight off the subsonic sea skimming anti-ship missiles. The accumulating technical lag has played and continues to play a key role in all this.
        1. 0
          1 February 2024 20: 21
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Accumulating technical backlog

          I also disagree with you on this.
          1. 0
            1 February 2024 22: 00
            You did not agree that the absence in 1904-1905. in the cellars of Russian ships of high-explosive shells with a normal filling coefficient of high explosives - this was a technical lag behind the Japanese (as well as from the rest of the “advanced fleets” that had high-explosive shells with melinite/lyddite equipment at their disposal), or with the fact that in 2022. The air defense/missile defense system of even an elderly cruiser must technically provide at least two lines - missile and artillery, intercepting subsonic anti-ship missiles flying 2-3 m above the wave crests of sea skimming?
            1. 0
              2 February 2024 08: 10
              Quote: AlexanderA
              You did not agree that the absence in 1904-1905. in the cellars of Russian ships there were high-explosive shells with a normal filling ratio of high explosives - this was a technical lag behind the Japanese

              Almost any fleet at any given time lags behind others in some way. But if we take the technological level of the shells, then the RIF was perhaps the only fleet in the world that had at its disposal high-quality AP shells, which are more complex in technology than high-explosive shells. It's a matter of priorities
              Quote: AlexanderA
              or with the fact that in 2022. The air defense/missile defense system of even an elderly cruiser must technically provide at least two lines - missile and artillery, intercepting subsonic anti-ship missiles flying 2-3 m above the wave crests of sea skimming?

              I extremely doubt that Moscow died from anti-ship missiles and not from an accident. And its anti-missile capabilities are not much inferior to the US ships that are part of the fleet and built in the 90s of the last century
              1. -1
                3 February 2024 00: 11
                Almost any fleet at any given time lags behind others in some way.

                This is true. But I used the “accumulating technical gap” to illustrate this point. It was normal not to have high-explosive shells with a sufficiently high filling factor with high explosive in 1894.

                Not to have such shells in 1904, when not only the most powerful naval powers of that time already had them: Great Britain (“Liddit”), France (“Melinite”), but also the naval powers of the second echelon: Japan (“Shimose”), Italy ("pertit"), Austria ("ekrasit"), the USA ("maximit") - this is not normal. This is a persistently unremovable, accumulating technical lag.

                Similarly with the second example with shipborne air defense/missile defense. It was normal not to have autonomous anti-aircraft artillery systems and air defense systems on surface ships of the main classes capable of intercepting subsonic anti-ship missiles flying 2-3 meters above the wave crests in 1982. Not having such ZAK and SAM systems even in the RKR in 2022 is not normal. This is a persistently unremovable, accumulating technical lag.

                You can lag behind the “advanced leaders” in something at any moment, but you cannot preserve this lag for decades, starting in this something to lag behind not the “advanced leaders”, but the maritime states of the second echelon, the “middle peasants.”

                The Russian Navy has been successfully producing such tricks for more than a century and a half. Regardless of the political system outside the window.

                These backwardness preserved for decades come to light already during wars. They surface and hit you painfully with defeats and losses.
                1. 0
                  3 February 2024 00: 31
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Not to have such shells in 1904, when not only the most powerful naval powers of that time already had them: Great Britain (“Liddit”), France (“Melinite”), but also the naval powers of the second echelon: Japan (“Shimose”), Italy ("pertit"), Austria ("ekrasit"), the USA ("maximit") - this is not normal. This stubbornly unresolved, accumulating technical lag

                  In 1904, 12-inch shells from the USA, England and France contained black powder. There is no information about Italy. The Austrians did not have this caliber.
                  1. 0
                    4 February 2024 11: 28
                    Good afternoon.
                    Dear Alexey, it’s nice to read your comments again.

                    Quote: rytik32
                    In 1904, 12-inch shells from the USA, England and France contained black powder. There is no information about Italy. The Austrians did not have this caliber.

                    You are probably mistaken about the French, they had such shells. This means a 12-inch high-explosive projectile.
                    1. 0
                      4 February 2024 14: 54
                      Dear Igor, good afternoon!
                      For the USA and England I have reliable sources; for France, unfortunately, I do not. I took information from Friedman's work "Naval Weapons of World War One"
                      If I made a mistake, please correct.
                      1. 0
                        4 February 2024 16: 53
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I took information from Friedman's work "Naval Weapons of World War One"

                        The book is interesting, but very condensed. A high-explosive 12-inch shell, with a melinite content of 2,4%, was produced until 1906. Since 1906, a shell with a content of 5,6% has been produced. In 1910, both of these shells were removed from service and another shell began to be fired. The first projectile was intended to replace cast iron ones with black powder. In 1898-1899, the issue of replacing conventional large-caliber high-explosive shells with thin-walled ones with an increased melinite content and an instant fuse was discussed. Apparently similar to the projectiles used by the Japanese, but according to French requirements, a high-explosive projectile must penetrate armor 1/10th the caliber of the projectile. Therefore, the proposal was rejected, although such a high-explosive projectile “smashed” everything at the explosion site.
                2. 0
                  3 February 2024 08: 59
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Not to have such shells in 1904, when not only the most powerful naval powers of that time already had them

                  Alexey answered you
              2. 0
                3 February 2024 00: 54
                Quote: AlexanderA
                RIF was perhaps the only fleet in the world that had high-quality AP shells at its disposal

                Without a high-quality delayed-action fuse that could withstand explosive passage through armor without exploding, these shells were not high-quality AP shells, despite the “Makarov caps” that appeared at 6 dm and the good hardened steel of the shells.

                At that moment, American armor-piercing shells with “Maximit” were of high quality. This quality was confirmed by test shootings at armored plates at the beginning of the century with shells up to 12 dm inclusive.

                But domestic armor-piercing shells and their armor-piercing effect simply did not bother to be tested by firing at ship armor before the Russo-Japanese War.

                An untested weapon cannot be of high quality by definition. And so it happened.

                During the war, the shortcomings of the untested Brink fuse surfaced. Well, the fact that pyroxylin cannot withstand the passage of a projectile through a fairly thick armor plate without an explosion was known back in the 19th century.

                Regarding “Moscow”. The Osa-MA2 single-channel air defense system, although it has increased firing efficiency against low-flying anti-ship missiles, ensures maximum destruction of them when missiles fly at an altitude of 5 meters above wave crests. However, historians will someday figure out whether the Osa-MA air defense system of Moskva was modernized before the MA2 modification. And the Osa-MA has a certified minimum altitude for hitting air targets of 25 meters..

                AK-630M is not autonomous and, in fact, oblique. In terms of their effectiveness when firing at anti-ship missiles, they are many times inferior to such Western ZAKs as “Vulcan-Phalanx” and “Goalkeeper”.

                https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/ob-effektivnosti-korabelnyh-artilleriyskih-ustanovok-pri-otrazhenii-protivokorabelnyh-raket
                1. 0
                  3 February 2024 09: 09
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Without a high-quality delayed-action fuse that could withstand explosive passage through armor without exploding, these shells were not high-quality AP shells

                  The fuse was pretty good. And as for the BB - even if we assume that the BB contained smokeless powder, they even then outperformed foreign BB with black powder or melinite.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  At that moment, American armor-piercing shells with “Maximit” were of high quality. This quality was confirmed by test shootings at armored plates at the beginning of the century with shells up to 12 dm inclusive.

                  And what did you see there that was extraordinary? And what does Maximit have to do with it, which the Americans never began equipping their EMNIP shells with?
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  An untested weapon cannot be of high quality by definition. And so it happened

                  a very bold statement. Why did domestic BB suddenly turn out to be bad?
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Single-channel air defense system "Osa-MA2"

                  On US ships built in the 90s, not only were there no missile defense systems capable of hitting low-flying targets, but there was not even a radar capable of reliably detecting them, since the “spike” of those modifications saw such targets very poorly. It was “tweaked” in later modifications, but the radar was not changed on older ships.
                  Quote: AlexanderA

                  AK-630M is not autonomous and, in fact, oblique. In terms of their effectiveness when firing at anti-ship missiles, they are many times inferior to such Western ZAKs as “Vulcan-Phalanx” and “Goalkeeper”.

                  Of course, this greatly helped the Stark frigate.
                  1. 0
                    3 February 2024 15: 21
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    The fuse was pretty good

                    https://topwar.ru/174809-cusima-snarjadnaja-versija-razryvy-i-nerazryvy.html

                    “Following the results of Tsushima, the Brink tube, which had many complaints, was very carefully studied (including tests) and the following weaknesses were discovered in it:

                    1. If the deceleration of a projectile (especially a large one) is not sharp enough, for example, when it hits thin, unarmored parts of a ship or water, the inertial force of the firing pin may not be enough to ignite the rifle primer (calculated pressure of at least 13 kg/cm2). But this is a feature of a fuse for an armor-piercing projectile, because it should not be initiated by hitting thin metal. (note - why shouldn’t it? It’s not about the thickness of the metal, but about the deceleration of the fuse. An armor-piercing projectile must be equipped with a fuse with a sufficient degree of deceleration to penetrate several meters deep into the ship’s hull before exploding)

                    2. Defect of the aluminum striker, when due to low hardness it could not ignite the detonator cap. Initially, the sufficient hardness of the striker was ensured by the presence of impurities in aluminum, but the shells of the 2nd Pacific Squadron were hit by a striker made of cleaner and, accordingly, softer aluminum. After the war, this firing pin was made of steel.

                    3. The problem of the brass body breaking off (approx. - intermediate detonator) when the impact is too strong.

                    4. The problem of incomplete detonation of the explosive in the projectile due to too small a volume of dry pyroxylin in the fuse (note - in the intermediate detonator of the fuse).

                    ...In total from 27 to 34 hits with shells of 8...12" caliber, of which 6 were non-explosions (18-22%)"


                    Since most 12" hits must be excluded, it is estimated that up to a third of Brink's fuses failed.

                    Aren't there too many shortcomings for a pretty good fuse?
                    And what did you see there that was extraordinary? And what does Maximit have to do with it, which the Americans never began equipping their EMNIP shells with?

                    Passing an armored barrier equal to the caliber of a projectile without exploding.

                    https://alex-cat-1975.livejournal.com/7687.html
                    https://alex-cat-1975.livejournal.com/6735.html

                    What do you think is this explosive that passed in the second link under the designation BT with which 12" US NAVY armor-piercing shells were loaded from 1902 until the transition to "dunnit" (ammonium picrate) began in 1906?

                    https://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/dunnite.htm

                    Dunnite was the name of a high explosive used by the United States during World War One (and in use from 1906 when it replaced use of maximite). The substance was named after its designer, Major Dunn, but was also commonly referred to as 'Explosive D'.

                    Why did domestic BB suddenly turn out to be bad?

                    “By the time of this war, the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing projectiles was everywhere far from being solved. Not only were the researches in the field of explosives capable of withstanding a blow to the armor without explosion not completed, but even the shell shells themselves often did not satisfy the conditions for firing at armor, although were quite expensive.
                    To fight the Russian fleet, the Japanese had to use strong shells with quick-action fuses. Such shells, of course, could not penetrate even weak armor, but they did not break against the armor before the fuse acted, but gave complete explosions, accompanied by large surface destruction. When they hit the weakly protected end parts of Russian ships, these shells produced dangerous holes, after which the ships lost buoyancy.

                    Russian naval shells contained a relatively small amount of wet pyroxylin (about 3%) and were equipped with: low-sensitive fuses. As a result, their effect on Japanese ships was completely insufficient." (C) Rdultovsky

                    But I am watching with interest the efforts of the “revisionists” who ignore both the “post-Tsushima” opinion of experts of that time and the entire technical history of the subsequent development of HE ammunition, who are confident today that shells with explosive charges are, at best, 2,4-2,9% wet pyroxylin from the total mass of the projectile and a Brink fuse with its “unsecured action”, or with an even smaller charge of smokeless powder and an ordinary tube arr. 1894 demonstrated a powerful destructive effect, more powerful than Japanese shells with many times higher trinitrophenol filling coefficients and an almost fail-safe Ijuin inertial fuse.

                    Particularly “impressive” is the “statistical argument” that each Russian shell that hit killed more people than each Japanese shell that hit (the casualties on Russian ships that lost stability/exploded from uncontrolled fires naturally do not count). The fact that Japanese shells knocked out artillery and control and communications systems, destroyed the side and superstructures, and caused fires “for some reason” (it’s clear to me why) was much better than Russian shells is not taken into account by supporters of the superiority of Russian shells.
                    Of course, this greatly helped the Stark frigate.

                    The frigates "Oliver Hazard Perry" were magnificent. A cheap anti-submarine frigate with a displacement of just 4 thousand tons, equipped with a sonar with a gas-propelled gun and two anti-submarine helicopters. Moreover, with medium-range air defense systems and anti-ship missiles. During these same years in the USSR, medium-range air defense systems and anti-ship missiles could not fit into the Project 1155 BOD with a displacement of 7,5 thousand tons.

                    You are aware that at the moment when the Mirage pilot was aiming at the Stark, the ship’s combat posts behaved like vacationers on a sea cruise, and the operator ZAK, “the main goal of military service”, time to give the ZAK command from his console to automatically reflect the missile attack, been stuck in the latrine for almost 20 minutes?

                    https://vova-modelist.livejournal.com/264046.html

                    "The URO frigate is good - the ship's watch is bad" (C)

                    US ships built in the 90s not only lacked missile defense systems capable of hitting low-flying targets


                    To be honest, I don’t want to look for reports on US Navy firing training on low-flying BQM-34s from the 80s and 90s, but from this perspective the US Navy had nothing special to fear then, the Uran anti-ship missile system was adopted by the Russian Navy only in 2003
                    1. 0
                      3 February 2024 19: 41
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Since most 12" hits must be excluded, it is estimated that up to a third of Brink's fuses failed.

                      Yes. And then we take actual data on the results of domestic shells in ZhM and in Tsushima, and we understand that you have embellished the reality “a little.” At least read your link
                      I will give the statistics of hits of large shells (8 ... 12 ") on Japanese ships in Tsushima according to the data of Arseny Danilov (they are more elaborate and accurate than the data of Campbell or Krestyaninov). The numerator indicates the number of hits, in the denominator - continuity:

                      Mikasa 6 ... 9/0
                      "Shikishima" 2/1
                      Fuji 2 ... 3/2
                      "Asahi" 0 ... 1/0
                      Kasuga 1/0
                      "Nissin" 3/0

                      "Izumo" 3/1
                      Azumo 2/0
                      "Tokiwa" 0/0
                      "Yakumo" 1/0
                      "Asama" 4 ... 5/1
                      "Iwate" 3 ... 4/1

                      A total of 27 to 34 hits with 8...12" caliber shells, of which 6 were non-explosions (18-22%),

                      Here's the conclusion
                      In not a single case of non-explosion was there a hit in the vertical armor. In three episodes, pipes and masts were hit with a clearly weak impact on an obstacle, which can be attributed to the “features” of armor-piercing fuses. In one - a very acute angle of contact; under such circumstances, even shells of subsequent generations often did not explode. And only in two cases there are serious arguments to suspect fuse defects. And these two cases provide only about 6% of non-explosions from the total number of hits from large projectiles, which almost fits into the “norm” voiced by V.I. Rdultovsky (5%).

                      Now come here
                      https://topwar.ru/201195-o-povrezhdenijah-linejnogo-krejsera-lajon-v-jutlande-stoilo-li-nemcam-streljat-bronebojnymi.html
                      And you see that the German shells produced 13 hits
                      - 2 cases of a clear defect in the fuses, which gave premature breaks (No. 3; 13);
                      - 3 cases in which the fuse most likely turned out to be defective and gave a premature rupture (No. 6; 8; 9);
                      - 1 case where the fuse most likely turned out to be defective and did not break at all (No. 1);
                      - 1 case when the fuse definitely did not give a premature break, but it is not clear whether it worked or not (No. 2);


                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Passing an armored barrier equal to the caliber of a projectile without exploding.

                      https://alex-cat-1975.livejournal.com/7687.html

                      That is, not even on a cemented slab.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      I honestly don’t want to look for reports on US Navy firing training on low-flying BQM-34s from the 80s and 90s

                      And rightly so. With such, so to speak, “work” with sources, it’s scary to imagine what you will find there
                      1. 0
                        4 February 2024 00: 04
                        Yes. And then we take actual data on the results of domestic shells in ZhM and in Tsushima, and we understand that you have embellished the reality “a little.” At least read your link

                        Do you understand why, in a conversation about the statistics of the “unsecured action” of the Brink fuse, I wrote that most 12" hits should be excluded?
                        Because according to, as you put it, “my” (given by me) statistics of Tsushima are given, and according to the conditions of shooting at Tsushima, they had to shoot (and hit) 12 dm shells equipped with ordinary tubes of the 1894 model, and not Brink fuses.
                        In not a single case of non-explosion was there a hit in the vertical armor. In three episodes, pipes and masts were hit with a clearly weak impact on an obstacle, which can be attributed to the “features” of armor-piercing fuses.

                        Tell me where did those present get the belief that the fuse of an armor-piercing projectile should not be sensitive? Low sensitivity was a huge drawback of the “pretty good”, as you put it, Brink fuse. Do you understand that in your assessment of the Brink fuse you do not agree with me, but with Rdultovsky? He is for you on the issue of fuses
                        not an authority of that time?
                        Now you come here and see that the German shells gave out 13 hits

                        Apparently an explanation is required as to why the Germans had a normal armor-piercing projectile in the Battle of Jutland, but the Russians did not have a normal armor-piercing projectile at Tsushima?

                        In 1916, the Germans had an explosive that could withstand the passage of a projectile through a fairly thick cemented armor plate without explosion. The Russians did not have such explosives in 1905. The Germans had a delayed action fuse for an armor-piercing projectile. Brink's fuse slowdown was too low. The best result at Tsushima, penetration of 152 mm armor plate (half caliber) and a shell explosion in a coal pit less than 3 meters behind the armor plate. In fact, the only such “distant” result. The Russians in 1905 did not yet have an armor-piercing shell. At best, it was a “pretty good” armor-piercing shell shell. The explosives and fuse of this projectile did not meet the requirements for an armor-piercing projectile. “By the time of this war, the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing shells was everywhere far from being resolved.” (C) Rdultovsky. Well, perhaps the Americans, with their “Maximit”, phlegmatized by trinitrophenol, had achieved something by that time. True, I can’t say anything about the American delayed-action fuses of that time. Just like Rdultovsky.
                        That is, not even on a cemented slab.


                        https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/explosion-of-a-12-inch-gun-at-sandy/

                        February 1903

                        "...High explosive was very much behind the times because, compared to military cartridge filler, it was hypersensitive to shock, while the projectile itself was equally obsolete due to the fact that its purpose was to prevent detonation from impact "by internally dividing the projectile into several parts" from cellular chambers, each containing its share of explosive. Even if the projectile and its filler were successful in these
                        tests, they would still not be in demand in army service for the reason that in Maximite and Dunnite the army received a powerful explosive, which, combined with absolute insensitivity to shock, gives a stunning bursting effect, as was shown two years
                        back at the test site when the 12-inch Krupp wafer was punctured and the substrate completely destroyed. Maximite and Dunnite do not require special internal shell construction because they
                        have a high degree of insensitivity, which is necessary to obtain a satisfactory shell filler. Both the shell and explosive that caused the downing of the Army gun at Sandy Hook were condemned by munitions experts before Congress passed generous appropriations to test them; and here we see another of those costly lessons (the damage in this case being, as we have said, about $50) concerning the folly of Congress in overriding the opinions of the very munitions experts upon whose judgment it is supposed to be relied upon..."

                        And rightly so. With such, so to speak, “work” with sources, it’s scary to imagine what you will find there

                        I know very well when the “maximit” came into the American armor-piercing shells, and when it began to leave, leaving its place to the “dunnite”.

                        Picatinny: The First Century Patrick J. Owens page 25

                        "In 1906, new equipment was installed to empty maximit armor-piercing shells and then load them with explosive D. Removing maximit required enclosing the shell in a steel shell with steam coils to heat the entire shell so as to first melt the explosive near the wall casing. This freed the casting and allowed the bulk of the explosive to slip out of the casing. By the 1920s, this process had fallen into disuse."

                        Continue your criticism of working with sources?

                        And a couple of pictures

                        Now I won’t tell you how the US Navy has been training to shoot down low-flying targets on the BQM-34 since the 70s.
                      2. 0
                        4 February 2024 00: 44
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Because according to, as you put it, “my” (given by me) statistics of Tsushima are given, and according to the conditions of shooting at Tsushima, they had to shoot (and hit) 12 dm shells equipped with ordinary tubes of the 1894 model, and not Brink fuses.

                        In ZhM too? :)))))
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Do you understand that in your assessment of the Brink fuse you do not agree with me, but with Rdultovsky? He is for you on the issue of fuses
                        not an authority of that time?

                        Listen, the evening is no longer languid.
                        You yourself do not trust Rdultovsky. He wrote to Russians in white
                        The heavy naval guns (12-, 10-/8- and 6-inch caliber) had two types of shells: 1) steel (deck-piercing) and 2) armor-piercing shells with tips. Both types of projectiles were filled with wet pyroxylin

                        But here you dispute it, no pyroxylin, smokeless gunpowder, and no fuses - of course, it’s Rdultovsky himself! And this despite the fact that Rdultovsky, noting the shortcomings of the Brink fuse, does not at all claim that it is completely bad, and does not highlight its shortcomings in describing the general shortcomings of our artillery.
                        Russian naval shells contained a relatively small amount of wet pyroxylin (about 3%) and were equipped with: low-sensitive fuses. As a result, their effect on Japanese ships was completely insufficient.

                        That's all! You counted 30%, and hide behind the authority of Rdultovsky, whom you yourself do not value at all and who does not confirm your conclusions anywhere.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Continue your criticism of working with sources?

                        Alas, everything you provide does not stand up to criticism. I once again suggest that you stop the senseless bickering.
                      3. 0
                        29 February 2024 16: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alas, everything you provide does not stand up to criticism.

                        Is this why there was no criticism?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I once again suggest that you stop the senseless bickering.

                        Explain what the Russian fleet had in 1904-1905. did not have effective armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing projectiles, except perhaps their casings... Because the Russian fleet did NOT have a reliable and sensitive fuse with sufficient deceleration (it makes no sense to use an “ordinary” fuse with an armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing projectile, i.e. almost instantaneous action), There is no explosive that can withstand the passage of a sufficiently thick armor plate by a projectile without exploding.

                        All this can be explained only to the interlocutor who, like a good fuse, is sensitive to the reasoning of the explainer.

                        Otherwise, you are absolutely right - counterproductive “meaningless bickering” (C).

                        If you argue about Russian (as well as other European) armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing shells, not even with me, with Rdultovsky.

                        Unless I, unlike Rdultovsky, who did not know what was happening overseas in the shell issue at that time, am aware that by 1904 the Americans’ “difficult task of developing good armor-piercing shells” had already ended in success. But other nations really didn’t have “good armor-piercing shells” back then. There were bad ones, unable to penetrate waist armor and explode in cellars, boiler rooms or engine rooms of armored ships.

                        Russians and Japanese in 1904-1905. fought with poor armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing shells.

                        Unlike the Japanese fleet, the Russian fleet did not have any high-explosive shells at that time, not only good ones.

                        Actually everything.
                      4. 0
                        29 February 2024 18: 01
                        Quote: AlexanderA

                        Is this why there was no criticism?

                        My entire comment is dedicated to her, and you didn’t answer a single point. I am directly quoting Rdultovsky to you, and his words contradict your theory. And you write to me in response
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        If you argue about Russian (as well as other European) armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing shells, not even with me, with Rdultovsky.

                        What I write is confirmed by Rdultovsky. What you write is refuted by Rdultovsky. But it’s not you who are arguing with Rdultovsky, but me.
                      5. 0
                        29 February 2024 19: 23
                        My entire comment is dedicated to her, and you didn’t answer a single point.

                        Forgive me, but in my tirades “everything you provide does not stand up to any criticism” and “with such, so to speak, “work” with sources, it’s scary to imagine what you will find there” did not notice the points.

                        Well, let's at least work with something. And so, I quoted the source, the book Picatinny: The First Centur by Patrick J. Owens in which (on page 25) it is noted that at the Picatinny arsenal in 1906 equipment was installed for reloading armor-piercing shells from maximit explosives to Explosive D explosives. Equipment used until the 1920s.

                        Explain in more detail why you were not satisfied with the source and/or my work with it.

                        I am directly quoting Rdultovsky to you, and his words contradict your theory.

                        What theory of mine are you writing about? About the one according to which by the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War "the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing shells was everywhere far from being resolved"(c) Rdultovsky?

                        1.) In your statement that the Russian armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing shells used in the Russo-Japanese War were good (did I get something wrong?) You are not arguing with me, with Rdultovsky.

                        2.) Rdultovsky knew nothing about American successes before 1904 in the development of armor-piercing shells, explosives and fuses for them. That's why the epithet he used "the development problem... is far from being solved everywhere" not entirely accurate. - and this is my statement.

                        Do you want to criticize the quality of American maximum armor-piercing shells and fuses for them? I look forward to this criticism and, so to speak, a master class in working with sources.

                        PS You know that the 12" "high-explosive" shells of the 2nd TOE were not filled with pyroxylin. Just like the fact that, according to the recollections of the artillery officer of the battleship "Peresvet" V.N. Cherkasov, "Our shells are filled with black powder (cast iron), smokeless (12-dm and small) and pyroxylin (10-dm, 8-dm and 6-dm)".

                        You adhere to the theory, probably not invented by you, that the manufacture of large pyroxylin charges for 12" shells was fraught with great production difficulties.
                        In response, I told you that pyroxylin charges for 8" siege mortar shells of the Military Department in the first years of the 12th century were produced at a rate of several thousand per year and that these charges weighed many times more than the pyroxylin charge for XNUMX" "high-explosive" shells of the Naval Department.
                        Did you realize that the "unavailability" of pyroxylin charges for 12" "high-explosive" shells of the Naval Department is due to the fact that they did NOT have time to develop them before the war, and not because they were developed, but could not be produced? If you did NOT realize, then why? You understand, right? that in light of the large-scale production of larger pyroxylin explosive charges for 8" and 11" land mortars, your theory that it was somehow very difficult to produce pyroxylin charges for 12" "high-explosive" shells of the Navy Department "does not stand up to criticism" ( c)?
                      6. 0
                        29 February 2024 19: 43
                        And this despite the fact that Rdultovsky, noting the shortcomings of the Brink fuse, does not at all claim that it is completely bad


                        Please provide quotes in which Rdultovsky at least somehow hinted, in your opinion, that the Brink fuse was good and that wet pyroxylin was a good explosive for armor-piercing shells.

                        In the meantime, I will give quotes: "...this fuse should have worked against weak barriers and water poorly.
                        When hitting thicker plates, the front part of the fuse could break off due to the low strength of the connection with the body. This created unsecured fuse action... The Main Artillery Directorate, without having a proven example of high-explosive shells for 10- and 6-inch. guns, forced to was to accept for them steel shells with pyroxylin equipment of a naval type, but supplied them more satisfactory fuses 11DM... It should be noted, however, that in the Main Artillery Directorate and in the Naval Department about 1900 there was the development of equipping armor-piercing projectiles with substances that could withstand the passage of a projectile through modern armor without explosion has begun. One of these substances turned out to be an alloy of picric acid with naphthalene, and the other was an alloy of picric acid with dinitrobenzene."
                      7. 0
                        29 February 2024 20: 06
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Please provide quotes

                        I have already given you everything. Instead of posting foot wraps, at least read your opponents' comments. Sometimes. ATTENTION!!!! QUOTE!!!!!!! RDULTOVSKY!!!!!!!!
                        The heavy naval guns (12-, 10-/8- and 6-inch caliber) had two types of shells: 1) steel (deck-piercing) and 2) armor-piercing shells with tips. Both types of projectiles were filled with wet pyroxylin

                        You have completely blown my mind with statements that we did not equip high-explosive shells with pyroxylin because the equipment was not developed. But Rdultovsky doesn’t think so. And here's another
                        Fuse 11 DM (Fig. 62) was adopted for 6- and 10-inch. shells filled with wet pyroxylin and taken from the Naval Department after the declaration of Japanese war... ...The 11DM fuse did not have a moderator, and its action time after hitting the plate did not exceed 0,005 seconds. Thus, he could not act upon the passage of the armor and was torn until it was penetrated.

                        A direct indication of the presence of high-explosive 254 mm shells.
                      8. 0
                        29 February 2024 21: 36
                        You have completely blown my mind with statements that we did not equip high-explosive shells with pyroxylin because the equipment was not developed. But Rdultovsky doesn’t think so

                        Oh no no no. Rdultovsky, in his book, which he wrote in the 30s, forgot to mention that specifically for the 12-dm “high-explosive” projectile, they did not have time to develop a pyroxylin charge for the war, as well as pyroxylin charges for the 6-dm Kane and 10-dm projectiles of the drawing Military Department. Which is why, actually, at the beginning of the war, it was necessary to allocate shells from the Maritime Department in Port Arthur for coastal batteries (well, even those who have read the historical novel by A. N. Stepanov “Port Arthur” know this).

                        Do you at least NOT deny the fact that pyroxylin charges were not developed for 6-dm and 10-dm shells in the War Department drawing?

                        Can I assume that your “red line” is that there is no way they could produce pyroxylin charges specifically for 12-dm “high-explosive” shells of the 2nd TOE? Well, no way, not a single one. What is the reason for their well-known equipment with smokeless gunpowder “due to the unpreparedness of the pyroxylin charges”?

                        PS And yes, can I assume that all armor-piercing shells are 12-, 10-/8- and 6-inch. caliber on the ships of the Russian fleet had an armor-piercing tip? Rdultovsky wrote. Or have they not yet had time to develop shells with an armor-piercing tip for some calibers?
                    2. 0
                      4 February 2024 15: 18
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      As a result, their effect on Japanese ships was completely insufficient." (C) Rdultovsky

                      Did Rdultovsky see damage to Japanese ships or at least reports of their damage? laughing
                      1. 0
                        29 February 2024 17: 00
                        Our reports on Japanese damage include blown up shell and charging magazines, boilers, destroyed steam engines of Japanese ships?

                        Or stir up several tons of coal in a coal pit and ensure it flows into this pit through a hole in the armor plate of the belt - this is exactly the goal for which in those days the “difficult task of developing good armor-piercing shells” was solved (C)?
                      2. 0
                        29 February 2024 17: 15
                        Can you say something on the topic?
                        I repeat. Based on what data was the effect of our shells on Japanese ships considered completely insufficient?
                      3. 0
                        29 February 2024 21: 13
                        Based on what data was the effect of our shells on Japanese ships considered completely insufficient?


                        Based on the fact that a good armor-piercing projectile should consist of:

                        a) from a body that can withstand without destruction with the dispersion of an explosive charge passing through “armor of modern qualities” with a thickness of the caliber of a projectile;

                        b) equipped with an explosive that can withstand passage through “modern armor” with a thickness of the caliber of a projectile without explosion;

                        c) a sensitive delayed-action fuse that can withstand without destruction the passage through “armor of modern qualities” with a thickness of up to caliber inclusive, after which it ensures the complete detonation of the explosive charge of a high explosive in the internal compartments of the ship, and not right there behind the armor plate.

                        Of all this, the Russian armor-piercing shells of Tsushima contained only the hull. That is why:

                        “By the time of this war, the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing projectiles was ... far from being resolved. Not only were the research in the field of explosives capable of withstanding a blow to armor without explosion not completed, but even the very bodies of the projectiles often did not satisfy the conditions for firing at armor, although they were quite expensive."

                        The Russian “high-explosive” Tsushima shells were not semi-armor-piercing, especially in the 12-dm caliber, which were equipped with “ordinary” (without delay) inertial fuses. Besides these:

                        "The steel pyroxylin shells of the Naval Department... did not have high armor-piercing qualities... did not have armor-piercing tips and were not hardened."

                        Those. there were problems not only with explosives and fuses, but also with their bodies.

                        To illustrate the good fragmentation effect of Russian shells, have you found at least one case where a fragment of a Russian shell a few meters from the firing point penetrated 2", 1,25" armor on a Japanese ship? Even at least 1" armor? Do you have at least one case where fragments of a Russian shell that exploded after penetrating one side of a Japanese ship disabled a gun on the opposite side?

                        On only one "Eagle":

                        "The upper armored deck above the middle battery of 75-mm guns was pierced in 2 places by fragments of 12-inch shells." “The 1 1/16-inch armored deck was pierced in two places by fragments of a 2-inch shell when it exploded near the overlying deck.” “In the left middle turret, fragments of a 12-inch shell shattered the 12-inch-thick commander’s cap.” “On the middle 2-inch turret of the left side of the Eagle, a 6-inch gunner’s cap was cracked by a fragment of a 12-inch shell, but survived.” “In the left rear (turret) the turret commander’s cap, ½ inch thick, was pierced right through.” “Japanese shells that burst into the water near the ship showered it with a hail of shrapnel, which riddled the entire side, not protected by armor. The bow of the ship was especially damaged by shrapnel. Many of them flew into the conning tower, cut the tackle and rained down on the decks, which were battered fragments even stronger than the side." “On the starboard side in the bow casemate, the guns were removed by fragments that ricocheted on the port side through the door of the longitudinal bulkhead of the casemate.” In a 2 mm battery: “Of the 75 guns of the battery, only 12 failed, but not because they were well protected, but only because by some accident only one 2-inch shell hit the battery, in the armor between 6nd and 2rd port side semi-porticos. The fragments slid along the side, flew into the battery through the semi-portico, disabled the gun, wounded the battery commander and killed one gunner. The other gun, the left bow one, was disabled by fragments of a 3-inch shell, which pierced the armored deck above it. The shell exploded under the bottom of the 12-inch left bow turret. Many fragments flew into the battery through the semi-ports. Some fell into the arbors with cartridges, but the latter did not explode. Only once one cartridge exploded and scattered the entire arbor, unraveling the cartridges , but without igniting." “Shrapnel flew into the aft 6-inch turret through the right gunner’s cap, which took off half the gunner’s skull and wounded 12 people in the turret.”
                        “When shells exploded nearby, on the bridges, spardeck and towers, fragments often flew into the wheelhouse, and many fragments were from behind, with which many were wounded in the back.”

                        Will you collect from the entire Japanese squadron similar examples of the effect of fragments of Russian shells, on guns, on armor, as Kostenko described on the “Eagle” alone?
                        And what examples of armor being torn off from fastenings can you gather from the Eagle’s conning tower alone?
                        “On the starboard side, an 8-inch shell hit the vertical armor near the end of the slab, under the visor. The visor was torn off all 20 goujons and thrown inside the wheelhouse, and it was strongly bent, so that its end got stuck between the overhang of the roof and armor, due to which, when flying inside the cabin, the visor did not reach the people standing at that time to the left and behind, but only crushed the board with the speaking pipes."
                        “A large-caliber shell hit the conning tower on the right and front in the armor, apparently in the middle of the slab, but closer to the center plane. At the same time, the slab was pressed into the conning tower with one end and moved outward with the other; the lining angles on the outside of the slab were cleared off, so it was not supported by anything and the next time it was hit by even a 6-inch shell it could fall out."


                        So why did you become convinced that the effect of the explosions of Russian shells was at least “not bad”? Not bad compared to what, compared to the explosions of Cathay shells with black powder charges from the Sino-Japanese War?
                    3. 0
                      4 February 2024 15: 25
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      By the time of this war the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing shells was everywhere far from being solved. Not only were research not completed in the field of explosives capable of withstanding a blow to armor without an explosion, but even the shell shells themselves often did not satisfy the conditions for firing at armor, although they were very expensive

                      Rdultovsky writes about land shells, not sea shells.
                      Andrey from Chelyabinsk and I have a book by Berkalov, where the appendix describes many experiments carried out in firing loaded shells at thick armor. Take my word for it, the shells pierced the armor and exploded behind it.
                      1. 0
                        29 February 2024 17: 30
                        Rdultovsky writes about land shells, not sea shells.

                        Touching on the topic of projectiles against armor, Rdultovsky, to the best of his ability, wrote about all the projectiles and fuses known to him at that time, from all departments and nations. Did you finish reading Rdultovsky’s book before the Jutland shells, or what? Try:

                        CHAPTER XI EFFECT OF PROJECTILES AND FUSES IN NAVAL BATTLES OF THE WAR OF 1914 - 1918

                        The only drawback is that Rdultovsky did not write anything about American shells and fuses of that time, because he knew nothing about them. No news from overseas reached Rdultovsky.

                        Andrey from Chelyabinsk and I have a book by Berkalov, where the appendix describes many experiments carried out in firing loaded shells at thick armor.

                        So let’s write it down: armor-piercing shells loaded with wet pyroxylin pierced armor plates as thick as a caliber and successfully exploded a few meters behind these plates, but Nicholas II in 1904-1905. reported otherwise, thereby misleading the Emperor. Sarcasm off

                        Share information from Berkalov’s book about what kind of fairly stable explosive it was, which “it was possible to find the now deceased captain Maksimov, and the results of firing 6 pounds of armor-piercing shells from a 190‑dm cannon, equipped with this substance, gave such favorable results that it was decided to move on to the experiments of equipping armor-piercing shells with it for 11‑dm guns model 1877. , for 6‑dm Kane guns and for 10‑dm guns"?
                      2. 0
                        29 February 2024 17: 38
                        Share information from Berkalov’s book

                        Berkalov wrote about shells for the fleet.
                        If you are interested in Maksimov, welcome to the archive
                      3. 0
                        29 February 2024 18: 16
                        Well, that is. Comrade Berkalov is not aware of the "pre-Tsushima" problem with explosives for armor-piercing shells? Because the Naval Department, unlike the Military Department, did not have this problem?

                        If you are interested in Maksimov, I will quote V.N.’s memories of him. Ipatiev from the book “The Life of a Chemist”:

                        https://vtoraya-literatura.com/pdf/ipatiev_zhizn_odnogo_khimika_vospominaniya_tom1_1945_text.pdf?ysclid=lt7cq1lcqi809069938

                        From page 202

                        "...Gen. Kostyrko informed me that he had decided to invite me to take part in the commission on the use of explosives in the loading of projectiles... This commission, very important in its purpose, was formed after the accident with Cap. Panpushko, who, as mentioned above, was single-handedly engaged in equipping shells with picric acid... At the beginning, a representative of the naval department, Capt. Barkhotkin, who was engaged in equipping armor-piercing shells with pyroxylin sabers, took part in this commission. After Barkhotkin left, my comrade in Academy of K. I. Maksimov, and he was entrusted with equipping the shells with wet pyroxylin. But soon the pyroxylin was replaced by other explosives... Cap. Maksimov was very friendly with me and consulted on all chemical issues that arose during his work. Unfortunately, he was not in good health, and working in a cold equipment workshop with powdered or molten explosives that gave off toxic fumes undoubtedly destroyed his already weak body. He was often ill, but being a very careful and honest worker, he did not want to skimp and went to work at a time when it would have been better for him to stay at home.
                        He was the first to come up with the idea of ​​introducing compounds for equipping projectiles that, having sufficient detonating properties, would not explode when passing through solid barriers. So, for example, an armor-piercing projectile equipped with such an explosive must pass through the armor and then explode from the action of the detonator located in the shock tube. He shared this idea with me and invited me to work on its implementation together. I readily agreed to this joint work, and began to study in the laboratory various combinations of aromatic nitro compounds with picric acid trinitrocresol and not only to study their suitability from a physicochemical point of view, but also to study their explosive properties in the Sarro and Vielle bomb explosions. After a year of work, the data obtained were reported to the Commission, and it was decided to carry out experiments in equipping projectiles with the intended explosives. After Maksimov’s death, which followed at the beginning of 1898, such combinations of nitro compounds found wide application in equipping projectiles, and my student at the Academy of Cap. A. A. Dzerzhkovich, who took Maksimov’s place, successfully continued the development of this issue..."


                        Just give the name of the person in the Maritime Department “he was the first to come up with the idea of ​​introducing compounds for equipping projectiles that, having sufficient detonating properties, would not explode when passing through solid barriers”.

                        Or did no one in the Naval Department ever think of such a thought before Tsushima?
              3. +1
                7 February 2024 13: 36
                So far there are only so many versions of the death of the Moscow. But there are no obvious traces of missile hits. And someone wrote that they shot all the anti-aircraft ammunition there and then received it. Who to believe? Perhaps our children will only find out about this.
                In all our Black Sea drinking sprees, one thing is not clear: why the hell are ships wandering around alone? And anti-aircraft defense with at least two people is much easier and it’s even easier to fight off kamikaz.
  12. +1
    30 January 2024 10: 07
    Quote: Dedok
    all decisions remain with officials

    Who, in your opinion, should make the decisions and where have you seen such a management system?
  13. +2
    30 January 2024 10: 14
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the interesting material.
    Therefore, they created a simpler drawing, in which the projectile had an explosive content of only 7,7% of the total weight of the projectiles. But, since the factories could not cope with this task, they reduced the payload weight to (on average) 3,5%.

    Based on the amount of explosives in the projectile, Brink himself gives the answer to this question, as for gunpowder;
    " The maximum pressure during firing should be such that the gunpowder is not compressed as the projectile moves along the gun barrel. The necessity of this condition follows from two experimentally confirmed considerations;
    1. When gunpowder is compressed, the particles of the latter are heated, and it can be so significant that a premature explosion of the projectile occurs.
    2. compacted powder burns slowly and if the tube were able to ignite it after hitting the target, as a result the high-explosive effect of the projectile could be significantly reduced
    It is necessary to separate the internal cavity with a fixed diaphragm or place an inert substance at the bottom of the projectile, cylinders of sulfur, wood or other similar material.
    ."
    1. +2
      30 January 2024 10: 54
      Good afternoon, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      Based on the amount of explosives in the projectile, Brink himself gives the answer to this question, as for gunpowder

      Here I don’t quite understand - it seems to me that compaction will happen for any mass of gunpowder. Again, when developing shells, we still proceeded from pyroxylin; gunpowder is still a palliative
      1. +3
        30 January 2024 12: 03
        Here I don’t quite understand - it seems to me that compaction will happen for any mass of gunpowder.

        Based on Brink, he believed that the danger of a shell exploding prematurely depended;
        "....not on the absolute weight of the explosive charge, but on the density of the equipment and the height of the internal cavity of the projectile and is the same for both thin-walled and thick-walled projectiles."
        Again, when developing shells, we still proceeded from pyroxylin; gunpowder is still a palliative

        This edition is from 1895, which is why I immediately wrote “about gunpowder.” If they touch on my “beloved French Navy,” then by equipping the projectiles with melinite, the density of the projectile equipment was also reduced so as not to cause a premature explosion. According to their calculations, the wall thickness of a high-explosive projectile should be at least one inch, “more is possible, less is not possible.”
        1. +1
          31 January 2024 20: 20
          Quote: 27091965i
          Based on Brink, he believed that the danger of a shell exploding prematurely depended;
          "....not on the absolute weight of the explosive charge, but on the density of the equipment and the height of the internal cavity of the projectile and is the same for both thin-walled and thick-walled projectiles."

          As far as I remember, to reduce the likelihood of detonation, the powder charge was divided into several parts in height using spacers made of some kind of wood. The gasket was deformed at the moment of the shot and reduced dynamic overloads; it also reduced the weight of the column of mixture pressing on the lower layers of the explosive. This is why the height of the internal cavity is mentioned.
  14. +6
    30 January 2024 11: 46
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    Please accept some minor edits:
    1. The Japanese ijuin fuze was not an instantaneous fuse, it was an inertial fuse, like the domestic fuse of the 1894 model.
    2. The steel on the 305-mm land mine was of high quality, and experiments with penetration confirm this. They penetrated the 148-mm Krupp armor of the Mikasa and exploded behind the armor.
    3. Armor-piercing shells were much more expensive due to the use of crucible steel. This is a very labor-intensive technology and our industry simply could not produce large volumes.
    4. There actually were experiments with firing high-explosive shells at thin barriers. And they were carried out repeatedly. For example, on August 22, 1902, a caisson with 1/8-inch sheathing was shot. Of the 4 6-dm shells filled with pyroxylin, 1 exploded, 3 did not explode. And out of 4 75-mm shells, on the contrary, 3 exploded, and one did not.
    Why they kept silent about this - I don’t know.
    1. +5
      30 January 2024 11: 57
      Quote: rytik32
      The Japanese ijuin fuze was not an instantaneous fuse, it was an inertial fuse, like the domestic fuse of the 1894 model.

      Sorry, but both of them quite fit the definition of “instant” - they detonated upon contact with an obstacle
      Quote: rytik32
      The steel on the 305-mm landmine was of high quality, and experiments with penetration confirm this.

      Such experiments have not been found either by me (but that’s okay, I don’t work in archives), or by Professor Berkalov, the author of a textbook on projectile design
      Quote: rytik32
      They penetrated the 148-mm Krupp armor of the Mikasa and exploded behind the armor.

      In what battle? From what distance? What is the basis for the confidence that it was a high-explosive shell, and that it exploded not in the process of overcoming the armor, but behind it? And a single penetration, in general, does not mean anything.
      Quote: rytik32
      There actually were experiments with firing high-explosive shells at thin barriers. And they were carried out repeatedly. For example, on August 22, 1902, a caisson with 1/8-inch sheathing was shot. Of the 4 6-dm shells filled with pyroxylin, 1 exploded, 3 did not explode. And out of 4 75-mm shells, on the contrary, 3 exploded, and one did not.

      Well, we are still talking about 305 mm land mines, what does 152 mm have to do with it? However, thanks for the information!
      And thank you for your comments, even if I disagree with something, it’s extremely interesting to read. I will be glad if you continue to comment on my materials
      1. +4
        30 January 2024 12: 06
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        both of them quite fit the definition of “instant” - they detonated upon contact with an obstacle

        A little later I will send you some book about the classification of fuses.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Neither I nor Professor Berkalov have found such experiments.

        What about the experience you cited? Penetrating armor the thickness of a caliber and at an angle in those years was not bad even for armor-piercing weapons.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In what battle? From what distance? What is the basis for the confidence that it was a high-explosive shell, and that it exploded not in the process of overcoming the armor, but behind it?

        Tsushima, there were two such cases with "Mikasa". The distances were "high explosive". About the hit at 14:25, the report from the commander of "Mikasa" even indicated the range and which of our ships it came from :)
        And the location of the explosion is clearly visible from the damage patterns. Both cases are in full coal pits.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        We are talking about 305 mm landmines

        If we limit ourselves to only 305 mm, then the only thing that comes to mind is the practice firing of the “Sisoi the Great” at the old Chinese coastal fortifications
        1. +4
          30 January 2024 12: 53
          Quote: rytik32
          A little later I will send you some book about the classification of fuses.

          I have good prospects, never against, thanks in advance! There is never too much literature.
          Quote: rytik32
          What about the experience you cited? Penetrating armor the thickness of a caliber and at an angle in those years was not bad even for armor-piercing weapons.

          So the muzzle velocity is too high and it is unclear what happened to the projectile. Professor Berkalov does not consider this evidence of the high armor penetration of a landmine, and I, a great sinner, agree with him.
          Quote: rytik32
          About the hit at 14:25, the report from the commander of "Mikasa" even indicated the range and which of our ships it came from :)

          However, I note that the manual manual describes this hit differently
          Hit No. 18 (damage No. 27 PB). At 14.25 At 14.25, a 305-mm shell hit the upper armor belt, aft of the casemate of 152-mm gun No. 1, at frame 63, at a height of approximately 6’6” from the design waterline. A conical “plug” was knocked out of the armor belt; the external dimensions of the hole were approximately 1’9”x2’, the internal size of the hole in the armor was about 2,5’. The shelf for laying anti-torpedo nets above the impact site was torn off for 10' (damage No. 28 PB), which indicates a shell rupture when passing through the armor. A significant hole was formed in the flooring of the casemate deck, into which coal dust got inside, causing the gun to temporarily stop firing.

          That is, we have different views on this hit
          Quote: rytik32
          And the location of the explosion is clearly visible from the damage patterns.

          It’s a pity that the manual doesn’t seem to give this specific information.
          Quote: rytik32
          If we limit ourselves to only 305 mm, then the only thing that comes to mind is the practice firing of the “Sisoi the Great” at the old Chinese coastal fortifications

          Here it is hardly possible to draw conclusions about the quality of the steel, unfortunately...
          1. +2
            30 January 2024 23: 55
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So the muzzle velocity is too high and it is unclear what happened to the projectile.

            The armor penetration of a projectile may be limited:
            1. Kinetic energy. Breakthrough is calculated using the de Marr formula or similar.
            2. The strength of the body. Here we see that this strength was enough to penetrate armor the thickness of a caliber - this is already not bad! If the projectile were equipped, then in the worst case there would be a rupture when deepening into the armor and action on both sides of the armor. In real conditions, the speed would be lower and the strength of the hull would definitely be enough, i.e. armor penetration would be limited to clause 1.
            3. An "incorrect" fuze or "incorrect" explosive, which may cause premature rupture. Everything was OK here.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That is, we have different views on this hit

            A significant armor effect is clearly visible, despite the presence of coal in the pit: the 25-mm flooring of the casemate deck has been broken through. This can only happen if there is a rupture inside.

            Compare with the effect of a Japanese 12-inch projectile. During the explosion in the area of ​​the side plating, the coal absorbed both fragments and the shock wave with a much larger amount of explosives than in our projectile:
            A 12-inch shell hit the front corner of the casemate armor on the port side, tore apart the thin plating and made a huge hole in the wardroom level with the battery deck. But the casemate's 3-inch-thick armor and 2-inch deck survived the blast without damage. The man who was in the wardroom feeding 75-mm cartridges into the aft casemate was saved only thanks to the coal protection of the side. The coal absorbed all the fragments. The sailor was covered with coal up to his waist. He got out unharmed, but could not get his boots out of the coal

            IMHO our 12-dm high-explosive shell was good:
            1. Penetrated armor half a caliber thick at Tsushima combat distances.
            2. Exploded upon impact with water.
            3. Possessed a powerful fragmentation and high-explosive effect.
            1. +1
              31 January 2024 08: 34
              Alex, welcome!
              Quote: rytik32
              A significant armor effect is clearly visible, despite the presence of coal in the pit: the 25-mm flooring of the casemate deck has been broken through. This can only happen if there is a rupture inside.

              Unfortunately, I cannot agree at all. Please remember the hit in the 229 mm armored belt of the Pobeda EDB. The shell, obviously, did not go inside, it only knocked out the plug and fell apart from the explosion. However, both the plug and the fragment of the head part pierced the decking above the hole and went into the upper coal pit, where they were found
              Quote: rytik32
              1. Penetrated armor half a caliber thick at Tsushima combat distances.

              It’s not that I disagree, I just don’t have the data to judge this
              Quote: rytik32
              2. Exploded upon impact with water.

              I have not read this either in the reports of Tsushima or in the reports of ZhM. Everyone said the opposite
              Quote: rytik32
              3. Possessed a powerful fragmentation and high-explosive effect.

              It is extremely difficult for me to imagine how you came to this conclusion.
              1. +1
                31 January 2024 08: 47
                And regarding the example given by Berkalov, the projectile had “manpower” that was approximately 40% greater than what would be sufficient to penetrate armor of a given thickness in such conditions. Here, IMHO, you could probably shoot frozen chicken, the armor would still be crushed
              2. +1
                31 January 2024 09: 09
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                However, both the plug and the fragment of the head part pierced the decking above the hole and went into the upper coal pit, where they were found

                IMHO, a shell fragment and a piece of armor flew through the open neck for loading coal, which is exactly what is there. And nowhere is it written about damage to the deck bevel, although the damage is described in detail.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I have not read this either in the reports of Tsushima or in the reports of ZhM. Everyone said the opposite

                For example, the Azuma database
                3:00 A large enemy shell exploded on the right under the bow turret. A high column of water rose and washed over the upper deck and shelter deck. I suspect there may be damage below the waterline.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It is extremely difficult for me to imagine how you came to this conclusion.

                If fragments could even penetrate the opposite side, is this a weak effect?
                Or did the blast wave throw 5 tons of coal out of the coal pit into the adjacent rooms, is this a weak high-explosive effect?
                1. +1
                  31 January 2024 11: 41
                  Quote: rytik32
                  IMHO a shell fragment and a piece of armor flew through the open neck for loading coal

                  I'll try to look at this moment in more detail, not everything is at hand right now
                  Quote: rytik32
                  For example, the Azuma database
                  3:00 A large enemy shell exploded on the right under the bow turret.

                  Nevertheless, a high column of water would have formed from the usual fall of a projectile without bursting. There is no mention of fragmentation damage - but there should have been if the shell hit the water. The fact that it was a 305-mm landmine is also not a fact.
                  In general, if we had mass evidence from the Japanese about our heavy shells exploding on the water, then yes, this is a very serious argument. And single ones - this could be an error of the observer, or an atypical operation of the fuse...
                  Quote: rytik32
                  If fragments could even penetrate the opposite side, is this a weak effect?

                  In general, yes. A normal landmine of 1907, exploding at the junction of the upper deck and the vertical armor plate, pierced the armor flooring of the middle deck, 37,5 mm thick, in seven places.
                  1. +1
                    31 January 2024 12: 10
                    I'll try to look at this moment in more detail, not everything is at hand right now

                    They dismantled it at Tsushima, Kronma laid out the drawings.
                    In addition, I have damage diagrams for "Victory", incl. and this. The deck bevel is not marked as damaged.
                    if we had mass evidence from the Japanese about the explosion of our heavy shells on the water

                    So read Japanese sources - everything is there. The only “badness” of the shells is that you didn’t read it.
                    pierced the armor flooring of the middle deck 37,5 mm thick in seven places

                    in Tsushima, the 25-mm deck flooring was pierced several times, but it just so happened that the 37,5-mm deck flooring was not there...
                    1. +1
                      31 January 2024 13: 04
                      Quote: rytik32
                      They dismantled it at Tsushima, Kronma laid out the drawings.

                      God willing, I had them, but not with me
                      Quote: rytik32
                      So read Japanese sources - everything is there.

                      I prefer to read translations from people who are a little more experienced in communicating with Japanese than I am. Otherwise, translation errors alone will be costly. By the way, I wouldn’t be surprised if the explosion you described is one of them.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      The only “badness” of the shells is that you didn’t read it.

                      Well, I still looked at the descriptions of the same manual.
                      First, a very large plug was knocked out, almost 2 feet. This does not look like armor penetration, but rather like a break when a shell explodes.
                      Secondly, the damage to the shelf for laying anti-torpedo nets (diagram attached) is not blown away by the wind, this is evidence of a rupture, and an external one, which indicates a rupture when the armor passes through
                      Thirdly, I don’t see anything impossible for a fragment of armor or a projectile formed during the passage of armor to pierce 25 mm steel
                      Quote: rytik32
                      in Tsushima, the 25-mm deck flooring was pierced several times, but it just so happened that the 37,5-mm deck flooring was not there...

                      Well, 37,5 mm is not steel but armor after all
                      1. 0
                        31 January 2024 21: 27
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Thirdly, I don’t see anything impossible for a fragment of armor or a projectile formed during the passage of armor to pierce 25 mm steel

                        This is the hole in the 25mm flooring in the diagram.
                        This is clearly not a fragment. The netting shelf is clearly more flimsy than the deck.
                      2. 0
                        1 February 2024 08: 30
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This is the hole in the 25mm flooring in the diagram.
                        This is clearly not a fragment.

                        So it almost closes with the side. Alexey, you keep reproaching me for not climbing the Jaskar, but you yourself don’t even want to check with Galkevich
                        Damage of this kind, such as the deck of a casemate, is quite natural when a shell ruptures while passing through armor. Shot No. 4 at Chesma - they fired 331,7 kg of land mine. The shell hit the joint between the upper deck and the slab, and it basically exploded from the outside. And the 25 mm floor of the casemate was bent and pierced by shrapnel
                      3. 0
                        1 February 2024 09: 13
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And the 25 mm floor of the casemate was bent and pierced by shrapnel

                        So compare the size of the damage; on the Mikasa the hole is about 2-2,5 meters wide! And on Chesme?
                      4. 0
                        1 February 2024 09: 21
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So compare the size of the damage; on the Mikasa the hole is about 2-2,5 meters wide! And on Chesme?

                        On the Mikasa, the shell exploded, apparently in the process of breaking through the armor, that is, at the moment of the explosion, part of the shell was inside, part was outside. That's why we have damage both outside (shelf) and inside. And at Chesma the shell didn’t go inside because of the word “no way”, it’s not for nothing that I brought the photo. The shell exploded on the “edge” of the armor plate, essentially only slightly damaging the deck. Therefore, on Chesme the floor of the casemate suffered much less damage. But even that tiny hole in the horizontal deck was enough for a 25 mm steel floor to bend to a decent size.
            2. 0
              1 February 2024 21: 03
              IMHO our 12-dm high-explosive shell was good

              Taking into account the deceleration time of the Brink fuse, not a single effective hit was detected from a Russian armor-piercing 305 mm projectile that pierced the side armor of at least half the caliber and exploded deep in the hull of the Japanese ship.

              Our 12-dm “high-explosive” was semi-armor-piercing in terms of its non-hardened steel body, in terms of its filling coefficient with weak explosives (smokeless gunpowder) it was an outdated armor-piercing one, in terms of its bottom inertial fuse of “ordinary action” (i.e. without noticeable deceleration) it was high-explosive. In fact, the projectile containing 1,8% by weight of smokeless gunpowder as an explosive and with such a fuse was neither armor-piercing nor high-explosive. None.
              1. 0
                1 February 2024 22: 53
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Taking into account the deceleration time of the Brink fuse, not a single effective hit was detected from a Russian armor-piercing 305 mm projectile that pierced the side armor of at least half the caliber and exploded deep in the hull of the Japanese ship.

                So the distances were not those for which the guns and shells were designed. With 30 cables in those years, not a single shell would have penetrated the belt + bevel of a modern battleship and exploded further.

                Quote: AlexanderA
                was an outdated armor-piercing

                The outdated armor-piercing one had black powder or no equipment at all.

                was neither armor-piercing nor high-explosive

                And whose else shell in 1905 could have 30 cabs? penetrate armor of half its caliber and produce a commensurate rupture?

                No

                You are comparing shells from the 1890s to shells from the future. The result is known in advance.
                1. 0
                  2 February 2024 00: 21
                  Quote: rytik32
                  So the distances were not those for which the guns and shells were designed. With 30 cables in those years, not a single shell would have penetrated the belt + bevel of a modern battleship and exploded further.

                  About 8 inches of cemented Krupp armor along the normal with 30 cables. If you don’t have to worry about the main belt and bevel of the “Mikasa”, then you could already worry about the main belts and bevels of the Japanese DBK if the Russian 12 dm. the armor-piercing projectile would be equipped with a truly reliable delayed-action fuse, and its explosive charge would provide sufficient armor protection. But what do we have there? Actually everything is written out:

                  https://topwar.ru/175171-cusima-snarjadnaja-versija-snarjad-protiv-broni.html

                  Extremely low armor effect. For example, it’s simply blatant: “A 12” shell at 15:00 pierced the joint of the 152-mm frontal armor and the roof of the Fuji aft turret and exploded inside. Powder charges caught fire, the right gun was out of action, and the left one temporarily stopped firing. 8 people were killed. , 9 were injured."

                  On the other side. For example, “Prince Suvorov”: “... the roof of the aft 12” turret above the left gun was torn off and bent upward, but the turret continued to fire. Later, the roof of the aft tower was completely blown away by the explosion, and the tower fell silent."

                  Or “Oslyabya”: “The bow tower was hit by three large shells, the first of which damaged the glacis, and the third, which passed through the embrasure, killed many of the tower servants.”

                  The explosion of a Russian 12" shell in the Fuji tower - 8 people were killed, 9 were injured. The explosion of an 8" shell in the Oslyabi tower at best - "many died...".

                  And after that, do you know, the authors argued in writing that one hit Russian shell on average killed more Japanese than one Japanese one, and deduced from this the almost greater effectiveness of Russian shells.
                  The outdated armor-piercing one had black powder or no equipment at all.

                  I described the “portrait” of a Russian 12-inch “high-explosive” projectile, which in terms of its armor-piercing action was an outdated armor-piercing one, but in terms of its fuse it was not armor-piercing. On the other hand, the Japanese also did not have armor-piercing shells for the fuse, but at least they had modern high-explosive shells, with a “modern” filling factor with high explosives. Whether the intermediate detonators of the Japanese fuses were powerful enough to always ensure complete detonation of the entire explosive charge is another question.
                  You are comparing shells from the 1890s to shells from the future. The result is known in advance.

                  I am comparing the Russian 12 dm high-explosive with its non-high explosives in a minimal quantity, which is more typical of an armor-piercing projectile, and the Japanese 12 dm high-explosive with its high explosive filling coefficient, which is quite modern for the OFS.
                  1. 0
                    2 February 2024 00: 40
                    and the Japanese 12 dm high-explosive with its high explosive filling coefficient, which is quite modern for OFS

                    Fill rate is not a panacea. Only after WWII did the British realize through experiments that a shell exploding inside damages a ship more than one exploding on the side plating or deck.
                    The Japanese in WWII had only 14 kg of shimosa in a 28-inch high-explosive projectile, and 9,3 kg in an armor-piercing projectile. This is all much less than the corresponding Tsushima 12-dm. The Japanese also began to draw conclusions...

                    The gap at best is 8" shell

                    These are outright fantasies; those who saw the hits assessed the caliber differently.
                    1. 0
                      3 February 2024 02: 39
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Fill rate is not a panacea. Only after WWII did the British realize through experiments that a shell exploding inside damages a ship more than one exploding on the side plating or deck.

                      In the discussion I cited a simulation of the explosion of a 600 mm M155 HE shell flying at a speed of 107 m/s on the turret armor of a T-72 tank, how it breaks through the armor of the hull roof...

                      There is one interesting point: for the M600 HE projectile flying at a speed of 107 m/s, there is almost no backward fragmentation flow.

                      The Russian projectile with a bursting charge of smokeless powder had few fragments, they were large and they flew forward in a narrow cone. As a result, if the same casemate was hit, such a projectile installed in the casemate could be disabled only by a direct hit.

                      The Japanese projectile had many times more fragments, the increase in velocity from the explosion of a high explosive they received significant, slightly less than that observed in the visual model of the M107 explosion with a TNT-hexogen mixture... When the explosion occurred on the side plating, the Japanese projectile was fairly showered with a stream of fragmentation to the sides, observed for example, fragmentation damage to the gun barrels of Russian ships. But even so, a significant part of the fragments of the projectile body and fragments of the side plating (a hole in an unarmored side with a diameter of up to a meter during the explosion of a 6" high-explosive projectile) during the explosion of a Japanese high-explosive projectile filled with a significant amount of high explosives flew forward. Large fragments pierced the unarmored bulkheads to the opposite side.

                      An explosion inside is, of course, good... All that remains is to find out what kind of deceleration the 4MRM bottom fuse has, which is equipped with the modern domestic 130 mm high-explosive F-44 projectile for naval and coastal artillery.
                      1. 0
                        3 February 2024 19: 31
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Large fragments penetrated the non-armored bulkheads to the opposite side

                        Yes, this has happened, but very rarely. Usually the shimosa crushed everything into small fragments down to dust.
                        By the way, this is just one English 12-inch shell hitting Pillau, the Battle of Jutland. Compare with hits from Japanese 12-inch shells :)
                        And even such powerful shells were rejected by the British after WWII, they came to the conclusion that a gap was needed inside.
              2. 0
                2 February 2024 06: 33
                [/quote]Our 12-dm "high-explosive" was semi-armor-piercing in its unhardened steel body[quote]

                Commons, such shells were called at that time. And the post about those that did not exist in the RIF of that time were high explosive.
                And as for the commons, “high-explosive” of the old drawing, they were quite, sometimes even very good.
                1. 0
                  3 February 2024 02: 53
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Commons, such shells were called at that time

                  In Britain they were called commons. And in our Naval Department they are “high-explosive” (which by design they were not), in the Military Department they are “deck-piercing”. Later, the domestic term “semi-armor-piercing” was established.

                  "A semi-armor-piercing projectile is a primary-purpose impact and high-explosive projectile designed to destroy surface sea targets."

                  What terminology will we use, British or domestic?
                  1. 0
                    3 February 2024 11: 03
                    [/quote]What terminology will we use, British or domestic?[quote]

                    It is always better to use the one that reflects the real state of affairs, that is, the global (British) one.
                    Otherwise, they will turn out to be opuses about non-existent shells and from “high-explosive” shells, they will demand precisely their properties, and not the properties of the common, and at the same time, naively, sincerely wonder why something “goes wrong.”
    2. 0
      1 February 2024 20: 43
      Quote: rytik32
      And out of 4 75-mm shells, on the contrary, 3 exploded, and one did not.

      As you know, Russian 75 mm shells from the Russo-Japanese War did not have a pyroxylin explosive charge. There were steel armor-piercing projectiles of the 1902 model with a 50-gram bursting charge of smokeless gunpowder. 75 mm steel armor-piercing shells of the 1892 and 1898 models did not have explosive charges. Cast iron 75 mm grenades were equipped with an explosive charge of black powder.

      It is not surprising that in 1904-1905 the RIF did not win a single indisputable victory in clashes between destroyer forces.

      It is noteworthy that the shells for the 120 mm Kane gun did not have pyroxylin explosive charges.
  15. 0
    30 January 2024 14: 32
    I'm pleased with the author's balanced approach. Sorry for the many mistakes... hi
    "High-explosive 305-mm projectile model 1894"
    There’s already a mistake in the name... the projectile was 12 dm... 25,4*12=304,8 mm
    "In the 80s of the 18th century, it amounted to 18 armor-piercing, 18 high-explosive steel, 4 cast iron, 2 segment and 60 grapeshot shells, and a total of XNUMX shells per one 305 mm / 40 weapon. "
    The author knows well that there was no such weapon in the 1880s, the text needs to be verified...
    “But still, according to some reports, the fleet sought a different composition, namely: 27 armor-piercing, 27 high-explosive steel and 6 segment projectiles. This is not at all surprising, since it was the armor-piercing projectile that was relied upon in the Russian Imperial Navy main type of ammunition."
    If the AP was the main one, then there would be more of it than high-explosive ones in the ammunition load, and there were THE SAME...
    "the refusal to create an effective 305-mm high-explosive projectile looks like a stupid, unforgivable and completely inexplicable mistake."
    the author himself partially disavowed his position in the paragraph below and somewhat higher in the text, but I will add - the use of AP shells against battleships is absolutely logical and cannot be considered a mistake! The zigzags of weapon development are such that if you look at the Yamato, then a high-explosive (or PB?) projectile contains 4,5% explosive angry
    1. +5
      30 January 2024 15: 03
      Quote: DrEng02
      "High-explosive 305-mm projectile model 1894"
      There’s already a mistake in the name... the projectile was 12 dm... 25,4*12=304,8 mm

      This may or may not be considered a mistake. A small excerpt from the French Naval Course, original text;
      " Le caliber de les pièces s'énonce en centimètres:10 cm (100 mm); 14cm (138mm); 16 c/m (164 mm); 19 cm (194 mm); 24 cm (240 mm); 30 cm (305 mm); 34 cm (340 mm)."
      So how can you determine if there is an error or this is how it should be?
      1. -1
        30 January 2024 15: 28
        when describing RIF guns, this is a mistake - there was an inch system of measures... for England too, but for Germany and France not - they have a metric system... hi
        1. +4
          30 January 2024 15: 51
          Quote: DrEng02
          when describing RIF guns, this is a mistake - there was an inch system of measures... for England too, but for Germany and France not - they have a metric system.

          Dear Sergey, honestly, you made me laugh, no irony.
          It just turns out that when converting inches to millimeters, you need to maintain accuracy, and when converting centimeters to millimeters, you can make a tolerance of plus or minus 4-5 millimeters. drinks
          1. 0
            30 January 2024 16: 07
            “Dear Sergey, honestly, you made me laugh, no irony.”
            glad! hi
            "You just did it"
            No, this is how it turned out for you... I’m talking about something else - if a country has adopted a certain system, then it must be followed angry Are you not surprised that our weapon caliber is 7,62 and not 7,6?
            1. +1
              30 January 2024 16: 18
              Quote: DrEng02
              No, this is how it turned out for you... I’m talking about something else - if a country has adopted a certain system, then it must be followed

              You apparently did not understand my comment, the French, for example, had the designation artillerie modèle 16 cm 1893-1896, canon de 16 cm 1893-1896, although in fact it is a 164 mm gun. hi
              1. +1
                30 January 2024 16: 43
                "You apparently did not understand my comment,"
                Not at all - the Franks simply had such a system, the Germans had a similar one - see the message below.
                I don’t see the point in redoing the systems - the historicity is violated...
            2. +5
              30 January 2024 16: 24
              Quote: DrEng02
              Are you not surprised that our weapon caliber is 7,62 and not 7,6?

              Aren’t you surprised that the Germans write 283 cm and not 28 cm with a 28,3 mm gun caliber?
              1. 0
                30 January 2024 16: 27
                “Aren’t you surprised that the Germans, with a 283 mm gun caliber, write 28 cm and not 28,3 cm?”
                No, by the way, I gave this example above hi This is a German notation system.
                1. +3
                  30 January 2024 16: 50
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  No, by the way, I gave this example above

                  And you continue to insist that the Germans, rounding to the nearest centimeters, are right, but we, rounding to the nearest millimeters, are not :))))
                  1. +1
                    30 January 2024 17: 10
                    “And you continue to insist that the Germans, rounding to the nearest centimeters, are right, but we, rounding to the nearest millimeters, are not :))))”
                    Are you talking about yourself in the third person? request Russian and English SYSTEM - was indicated in dm, French and German in cm! You introduce your system - this is your right, but this violates the principle of historicity...
                    1. +1
                      30 January 2024 17: 53
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      Are you talking about yourself in the third person?

                      No, about me and Professor Goncharov. And also a bunch of other authors
                      1. +2
                        30 January 2024 18: 01
                        “No, about me and Professor Goncharov. And also a bunch of other authors.”
                        What about you and this professor? Did he authorize you? Like other authors? I speak for myself. feel
    2. +4
      30 January 2024 15: 05
      Quote: DrEng02
      There’s already a mistake in the name... the projectile was 12 dm... 25,4*12=304,8 mm

      There is no mistake - rounding to the nearest millimeter is considered acceptable, and is found even in artillery textbooks (305 mm in relation to a 304,8 mm gun you can read from the same L.G. Goncharov.
      Quote: DrEng02
      The author knows well that there was no such weapon in the 1880s, the text needs to be verified...

      Yes, it should have been written in the 90s.
      Quote: DrEng02
      If the AP was the main one, then there would be more of it than high-explosive ones in the ammunition load, and there were THE SAME...

      From which it does not in any way follow that AP shells were not considered the main ones in the fleet. In general, in the RIF there were much more destroyers than squadron battleships, but it was the squadron battleships that were considered the main force of the fleet.
      Quote: DrEng02
      However, I will add that the use of AP shells against battleships is absolutely logical and cannot be considered a mistake!

      Did I say somewhere that this was a mistake? Another question is that the transition to AP shells, according to the instructions of the fleet, was made no further than 20 cables
      Quote: DrEng02
      The zigzags of weapon development are as follows

      That it is designed at a different technological level, which is why it is a little incorrect to compare WWII and REV shells
      1. -2
        30 January 2024 15: 23
        “There is no error - rounding to the nearest millimeter is considered acceptable, and is found even in artillery textbooks” this is precisely an error for RIF... 12 dm does not require rounding... hi and the cannon from which these shells were fired was 12"/40 soldier for example, the Germans had guns with a caliber of cm...28 cm SK L/50 - a 283-mm naval artillery gun, and the British had a 12-inch naval gun Mk IX - an English naval gun with a caliber of 12 inches (304,8 mm).
        1. +1
          30 January 2024 15: 39
          Quote: DrEng02
          There is no error - rounding to the nearest millimeter is considered acceptable, and is found even in artillery textbooks "this is precisely an error for RIF...

          Again. L.G. Goncharov, professor of the Military Medical Academy of the Red Army named after Comrade Voroshilov, "Course of naval tactics. Artillery and armor" edition 1932. Not issued at home, burn before reading
          305 mm (12")
          Scan attached
          1. -1
            30 January 2024 15: 52
            "Once again. L.G. Goncharov, Professor of the Military Medical Academy of the Red Army named after Comrade Voroshilov"
            Are you flaunting your regalia again? So you can't knock me down, I'm the one with the mustache hi
            You are in vain trying to argue with the engineer, I will refer to your message (Today, 08:37), where you also provided a scan from the royal book - and I will ask you to find 305 mm there... love but there are 6, 8, 10 and 12 dm... soldier
            1. +2
              30 January 2024 16: 21
              Quote: DrEng02
              You are in vain trying to argue with the engineer

              In this case, the engineer is in vain trying to argue with me :)))
              Quote: DrEng02
              I will refer to your message

              What's the point of referring to it? Then there was an inch system of measures, and they indicated what was measured in inches. Then the metric came, the inch died away. Accordingly, inches began to be converted into millimeters. And then rounding fractions to the nearest millimeter became commonly used. This is what Professor Goncharov’s textbook proves.
              If we lived in 1905, yes, writing 12-inch as 305-mm would be a mistake. Today and for almost 100 years this is not a mistake.
              1. -2
                30 January 2024 16: 33
                “In this case, the engineer is in vain trying to argue with me :)))”
                not at all, I finally brought you to a simple thought: “when there was an inch system of measures, they indicated what was measured in inches.”
                “Then the metric came, the inch died away.” By no means - the inch has died out for new products, but for old ones it remains. The new metric notation is usually for reference purposes - for example: 12 dm (305 mm) will be more or less correct...
                “Today and for almost 100 years this is not a mistake.”
                When describing the technology, there are... different tolerances and fits... but it’s difficult... hi
                Just ask yourself a question - why today it is still 7,62 and not 7.6... feel
                For example, now the railway gauge is not 60 dm, but 1520 mm....
                1. +3
                  30 January 2024 16: 49
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  When describing the technology, it is...

                  That is, a whole professor, one of the leading USSR specialists in naval artillery of the 30s, is not your authority. Well, as I understand it, you don’t know how to admit your mistakes. Thanks for the discussion.
                  1. 0
                    30 January 2024 17: 14
                    "The old professor, one of the leading USSR specialists in naval artillery of the 30s, is not your authority." You are in vain once again applying the ridiculous principle of hiding behind someone else’s authority... bully I don't need it - I have my own... wink
                    “You don’t know how to admit your mistakes” You shouldn’t point your fingers at me - we’re discussing your work, not mine! I tried to explain to you your inaccuracies - in part you admitted, in part you persist, which is funny!
                    1. 0
                      30 January 2024 17: 52
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      I don't need it - I have my own...

                      No longer.
                      1. -1
                        30 January 2024 18: 06
                        "Not anymore." If you're talking about yourself, then I'm not interested..
                        you are too emotional for the author and do not take into account the arguments...
                2. +4
                  30 January 2024 18: 57
                  Just ask yourself a question - why today is still 7,62, and not 7.6... feel
                  For example, now the railway gauge is not 60 dm, but 1520 mm....
                  This whole post is about nothing request Pouring from empty to empty lol
                  1. -3
                    31 January 2024 13: 43
                    “Transferring from empty to empty” I tried to explain to the author that he had 12 mm shells for the 40"/305 gun - but he didn’t get it... feel
                3. 0
                  7 February 2024 15: 54
                  All my life I wrote 305 mm. Everyone understands. and 12 inches is also understandable. Yes, and when measuring at that time, the difference between 304,8 and 305 mm was exactly 0. This is with the system of standards and measuring instruments. It is not so easy to actually measure the difference and feel it when shooting.
  16. 0
    30 January 2024 15: 43
    Regarding the concept of armor-piercing/high-explosive shells, it is written convincingly. I'm not special. But according to this description, the first ones were planned to be used at short distances. But for this you need to have an advantage in speed over the enemy! Which did not exist and was not planned according to those. characteristics of our battleships!
    So why all this “fuss”???
    1. -1
      30 January 2024 16: 02
      "to do this you need to have a speed advantage over the enemy"
      Our EDBs did not have a serious lag in speed in terms of performance characteristics, the problem of combat in ZhM is associated with the presence of very different ships in the line (and poor shooting), and during Tsushima it was more due to the mediocrity of the leadership...
      1. +1
        30 January 2024 16: 23
        Quote: DrEng02
        under Tsushima - more with the mediocrity of the leadership...

        That is, this incompetent leadership led to the fact that Borodino-type EDBs constantly broke down something in their cars at speeds above 9 knots?
        1. +2
          30 January 2024 16: 39
          “So this incompetent leadership led to the fact that Borodino-type EDBs constantly broke down something in their cars at speeds above 9 knots?” Certainly! How else? The task of the authorities is to competently test the equipment before accepting it into the treasury, and not to cover up shortcomings...
          But in view of the enemy, it was the ZPR that created a bunch! as well as the command of 2BO in the form of a dead man...
          Or he divided his forces into 3 BBO, when it is known that the enemy had only 2... hi
          1. +2
            30 January 2024 16: 47
            Quote: DrEng02
            Certainly! How else?

            Hmmm ...
            Quote: DrEng02
            The task of the authorities is to competently test the equipment before accepting it into the treasury, and not to cover up shortcomings...

            There was little time for “proper acceptance into the treasury” - the decision to urgently send 2TOE was made not by the navy, but by the tsar.
            Quote: DrEng02
            But in view of the enemy, it was the ZPR that created a bunch!

            In fact, the ZPR arranged it so that the Japanese entered the battle in the most unfavorable configuration for themselves. Consciously or not is another matter, but it was his maneuvers that led to the need for Togo’s noose
            Quote: DrEng02
            as well as the command of 2BO in the form of a dead man...

            You just don’t understand what you’re writing about, sorry. In your opinion, commanding ships is like being in a computer game...
            But Rozhdestvensky had himself and Nebogatov, there were no other admirals. At the same time, he could not transfer Nebogatov to Oslyabya, because there was no point in doing so - Nebogatov did not know the features of the ships of the 2nd detachment. But he knew the 3TOE ships, so leaving it in its place was absolutely the right decision
            Quote: DrEng02
            Or he divided his forces into 3 BBO, when it is known that the enemy had only 2...

            He divided his forces into 2 detachments, the third appeared when he was given a makeweight in the person of 3TOE, but this was not known at the time of the formation of 2TOE. And in fact, with the death of Felkersam, he led the squadron to a two-detachment structure, taking command of the 1st and 2nd combat detachments
            1. 0
              30 January 2024 17: 06
              “There was a little time for “proper acceptance into the treasury” - the decision to urgently send 2TOE was made not by the navy, but by the tsar.”
              The decision was made by the tsar, but the implementation was in the hands of the admirals... one had to think about the matter, and not be a courtier...
              "It was his maneuvers that led to the need for Togo's noose"
              as well as the death of Oslyabya request Did you yourself understand the idea of ​​the ZPR about braking 1 BO in sight of the enemy? According to all the canons, he should have accelerated, at least by 14 knots for a jerk and realized the potential of Russian AP shells with 15-20 cables...
              “And Rozhestvensky had himself and Nebogatov, there were no other admirals.”
              exactly! 2 admiral for 2 BO...
              “At the same time, he could not transfer Nebogatov to Oslyabya, because there was no point in doing so.”
              You have some wild ideas... request Oslyabya was supposed to be the 5th matelot, followed by Sisoy... Relatively new ships with new artillery...
              And in Nedogatov’s BO it was necessary to gather the rest of the old people...
              "Nebogatov did not know the features of the ships of the 2nd detachment"
              ZPR had time to send new detachments, and could have stayed longer if necessary...
              "represented by 3TOE, but this was not known at the time of the formation of 2TOE"
              we must proceed from the realities of life, including in relation to the structure of subordinate forces and means...
              "taking command of the 1st and 2nd combat detachments"
              nonsense... ships are different in speed and artillery properties...
              1. 0
                30 January 2024 17: 51
                Quote: DrEng02
                The decision was made by the tsar, but the implementation was in the hands of the admirals...

                They received the order and went on a campaign and battle with unfinished mechanisms. Well, there weren’t several months for running-in and fine-tuning.
                Quote: DrEng02
                I had to think about business, and not be a courtier...

                We were thinking about business - we had to help out 1TOE
                Quote: DrEng02
                as well as the death of Oslyabya request, did you yourself understand the idea of ​​the ZPR about braking 1 BO in view of the enemy?

                Oslyabya should not have died as a result of this maneuver. And Rozhestvensky made one single mistake - there was no need to reduce the move after he brought the 1st detachment to the head of the second. Baer made no less a mistake by not reducing his speed, although he clearly saw that the Eagle would cut him off
                Against the backdrop of Togo’s 100500 mistakes at the start of the battle...
                Quote: DrEng02
                According to all the canons, he should have accelerated, at least by 14 knots for a jerk and realized the potential of Russian AP shells with 15-20 cables...

                To break the formation and leave the quiet ones behind, and expose yourself to the attack of 12 enemy ships when they finish turning? With the risk of breaking the line and critical failure of the power plants of the newest battleships? Bravo, comrade engineer.
                Rozhdestvensky, unlike you, together with another engineer like him, was a realist, and remembered how the “Tsesarevich” and “Victory” rolled out of formation with the signal “I can’t control” when trying to develop a speed of 15 knots at the beginning of the battle in ZhM.
                Quote: DrEng02
                You have some wild ideas...

                You are imagining this out of ignorance
                Quote: DrEng02
                Oslyabya was supposed to be the 5th matelot, followed by Sisoy... Relatively new ships with new artillery...
                And in Nedogatov’s BO it was necessary to gather the rest of the old people...

                That is, you propose to break the fused 2nd squad, despite the fact that the 1st squad in your division does not receive an advantage in speed. As I understand it, it makes no sense to ask “why”
                Quote: DrEng02
                ZPR had time to send new detachments, and could have stayed longer if necessary...

                The ZPR did not have time to float them, and in principle he could not linger - there was only just enough coal.
                Quote: DrEng02
                nonsense... ships are different in speed and artillery properties...

                well, yes, and Sisoy directly corresponds to Oslyaba in terms of speed :))))) Moreover, the refusal to allocate a high-speed wing was quite justified.
                1. -1
                  30 January 2024 18: 18
                  “Well, there weren’t a few months for running-in and fine-tuning.”
                  How is that? During the hike and stay in Madagascar, a lot could be done...
                  “We were thinking about the matter - we had to help out 1TOE”
                  To gain 1 TOE, it was necessary to leave as soon as the ice conditions allowed (at least 4-5 EDB could be sent), in reality there was nowhere to rush, a close siege had begun - it would have been better to wait for Slava.
                  "And Rozhdestvensky made one single mistake - he shouldn’t have reduced it"
                  not at all - it was one of the most fatal, and he made mistakes...
                  "expose yourself to 12 enemy ships"
                  this is geometrically impossible..
                  "together with another similar engineer"
                  Do you have a complex towards engineers? bully
                  "when trying to develop a speed of 15 knots at the beginning of a battle in ZhM."
                  VKV was able to maintain maximum speed, even at the cost of the last matelots lagging behind...
                  "With the risk of breaking the line and critical failure of the power plants of the newest battleships?"
                  I had to try it! and there is no risk in battle... He decided to take the noose...
                  “You are imagining this out of ignorance”
                  You greatly exaggerate your knowledge...
                  “As I understand it, it makes no sense to ask “why””
                  Well, if you don’t understand, I’ll break it down... 1 BO is 6 EDB with a stroke of 13-14kt and with 20*12/40 and 4*10/45... Firepower is higher than 1 BO Togo...
                  "there was only so much coal."
                  There was plenty of coal around Japan
                  "Sisoy directly matches Oslyaba in speed"
                  it corresponds to the Borodino residents according to the Civil Code, and the speed of 1BO was determined by Borodino...
                  1. +4
                    30 January 2024 19: 05
                    Dear colleague, Could you use highlighting for quotes and answers?
                    It's just hard to understand you.
                    Hint, the best way to do this is to use the quote icon feel
                    1. 0
                      31 January 2024 13: 46
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      Hint, the best way to do this is to use the quote icon

                      Thanks for the advice, but I don’t always write from a landline... feel
                  2. +1
                    30 January 2024 19: 08
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    How is that? During the hike and stay in Madagascar, a lot could be done...

                    yes, of course, complete the tests, build the Baltic plant in Madagascar, find workers and quickly fix everything... wassat Are you definitely an engineer? laughing
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    this is geometrically impossible..

                    That is, today’s engineers don’t even need to know geometry...
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    VKV was able to maintain maximum speed, even at the cost of the last matelots lagging behind...

                    Could not. sailed 13 knots.
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    I had to try it!

                    You can experience when you can fix what is broken. And on a hike there is no place to fix it.
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    Do you have a complex towards engineers?

                    Yes, there was a character like you on the squadron, engineer Kostenko. I also didn’t understand anything, but I thought I understood everything.
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    Well, if you don’t understand, I’ll break it down...

                    You yourself first understand what you are talking about.
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    1 BO is 6 EDB with a stroke of 13-14 knots and with 20*12/40 and 4*10/45... Firepower is higher than 1 BO Togo...

                    And for 7 EDB and 1 BRKR - even higher at the same speed. AND?
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    "there was only so much coal."
                    There was plenty of coal around Japan

                    Learn materiel. Even directly taking into account the battle, it might not be enough if the pipes are broken
                    1. +1
                      31 January 2024 14: 24
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      But today’s engineers don’t even need to know geometry...

                      definitely an inferiority complex for engineers... hi
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Could not. sailed 13 knots.

                      Peresvet didn’t give any more, but he scored on the backlog of Poltava...
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      You can experience when you can fix what is broken. And on a hike there is no place to fix it.

                      Do you have self-spanking? What did I write about? Taking untested ships on a voyage is stupidity bordering on treason...
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Yes, there was a character like you on the squadron,

                      How are you drawn to your personality? Why did you get so caught up in pride? so I didn’t really criticize, but politely drew attention to the absurdities... And if I include a real reviewer, I will give the entire beginning of the article under discussion:
                      "We continue the theme of domestic twelve-inch shells.
                      High explosive 305-mm projectile arr. 1894" - don’t remember what this is called in psychiatry? feel In technical literature, this is called the use of different terms to refer to one subject... hi

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      engineer Kostenko. I also didn’t understand anything

                      "1900-1904 - studied at the shipbuilding department of the Marine Engineering School of Emperor Nicholas I (now VVMIU named after F. E. Dzerzhinsky). Graduated with a gold medal with his name included on the Marble Plaque of the school. The topic of the diploma is the project of a new lightweight fast armored cruiser.
                      1904-1905 - assistant builder on the battleship "Eagle" at the end of its construction, and then an engineer (the Naval Ministry decided to appoint one engineer from the builder to each new ship) during the voyage of the Second Pacific Squadron under the command of Rozhdestvensky and in The Battle of Tsushima (Kostenko appears in A. S. Novikov-Priboy’s novel “Tsushima” as “engineer Vasiliev”).
                      1905-1906 - Japanese captivity.
                      1906 - assistant to the builder of the battleship "Andrei Pervozvanny."
                      "From May 1, 1912 - head of the shipbuilding office, and then chief naval engineer of the Society of Nikolaev factories and shipyards "Naval" (now the Black Sea Shipyard)."
                      "Under his leadership, the first domestic transport ships were created, andas well as shipyards in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (Amur Shipyard) and in Severodvinsk (Northern Machine-Building Enterprise)."
                      "V.P. Kostenko was also a member of the Scientific and Technical Council of the Central Research Institute named after Academician Krylov"
                      How can I politely answer you so that you understand your place in relation to this honored naval engineer... I will refrain, I will be banned... hi
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And for 7 EDB and 1 BRKR - even higher at the same speed. AND?

                      Not at all... 8 ships is already excessive for maneuvering and concentrating fire... it was after the REV that the squadrons began to have 3-4 EBR/LK
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Learn materiel. Even directly taking into account the battle, it might not be enough if the pipes are broken

                      typical answer from an amateur... bully Once they discussed a march around Japan at 2TOE and this didn’t stop anyone...
                      1. +1
                        31 January 2024 15: 02
                        I don’t see the point in answering you and I won’t waste time, because my reserves of beads are by no means unlimited. Express any opinion you want, because I am unable to cure the combination of the infinity of your misconceptions on any naval issues with a militant inability to perceive your opponent’s argumentation. At the same time, your mistakes are so obvious that, with rare exceptions, they do not require refutation - readers already understand everything.
                        In those cases where your mistakes are not so obvious and can mislead readers, I will intervene, of course.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        How can I politely answer you so that you understand your place in relation to this honored naval engineer

                        This was not about Kostenko’s competence as a shipbuilder. There he was quite competent. The point was that Kostenko considered it possible for himself to judge everything in the world. It was he who counted EMNIP one and a half hundred 305 mm hits on the Eagle. It was he who undertook to evaluate the maneuvering of 2TOE, having neither experience nor knowledge.
                        In his memoirs, he gave a bunch of assessments to certain events that were not within his competence and about which he had very little idea. Accordingly, I made a huge number of mistakes. In addition, Mr. Kostenko gets confused a lot with numbers and contradicts himself in his memoirs and in the testimony of the Investigative Commission.
                        Very similar to your comments :)))
                        And if dear readers of our correspondence still have any questions about any of Sergei’s theses, ask, I will answer
                      2. -2
                        31 January 2024 15: 27
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At the same time, your mistakes are so obvious,

                        hmm, you are obviously dizzy from success and have an incorrect understanding of the level of your importance... although the only thing you have written that is serious is a cycle about the battle of the Kyrgyz Republic in BM..
                        the article under discussion is a pale shadow of Vinogradov’s work, I politely hinted at this to you, it seems that you got excited because of this... bully calm down, there’s no point in me gaining points here, I’m quite successful in life... I just don’t like nonsense (from an economist!) like...
                        "since, according to some, albeit indirect, data, the pricing of a gun in those years depended on its mass. This is nothing more than a hypothesis, but no other reasonable I cannot give an explanation for this phenomenon: I will be happy to listen to the opinions of knowledgeable readers on this matter."
                        so from the engineer:
                        1) the price of any product depends on its weight - just the costs of the materials used... well, at least they didn’t insert the word “directly”...
                        2) “otherwise reasonable” lie on the surface - reducing the upper weight - overloading the scourge of RIF ships! And here immediately 60t = the mass of 4x 6"/45 guns...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Speech was not about Kostenko’s competence as a shipbuilder

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yes, there was a character like you on the squadron, engineer Kostenko. I also didn’t understand anything, but I thought I understood everything.

                        I quote you in paragraphs... from these quotes it is clear that you have backtracked regarding your libel regarding Kostenko. I understand, he has been dead for a long time, God will judge you for the attack... feel
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk[b
                        ]In his memoirs[/b] he gave a bunch of ratings to certain events, which were not within his competence and about which he had very little idea.

                        1) why else do they write memoirs? bully
                        2) this is from your bell tower, and he, as you like to write in discussions, graduated from the predecessor of the VVMIU named after F. E. Dzerzhinsky - i.e. naval officer-engineer... so it’s simply ridiculous to compare his level of competence in military affairs with yours - it’s a pity that you don’t understand this...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Very similar to your comments :)))

                        won't you cause confusion with the numbers from me? or keep silent? hi
                      3. +2
                        31 January 2024 15: 20
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        Could not. sailed 13 knots.
                        Peresvet no longer gave,

                        They confused it with "Victory". "Peresvet" is the fastest battleship in the squadron. Winner of the armadillo race.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        but Poltava is behind

                        “Poltava” has nothing to do with it.
                        “Tsesar” has eternal troubles in the car, and “Retvizan” has a hole in its nose.
                        "Vitgeft" could not go faster.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        It was after the nuclear attack that the squadrons began to have 3-4 EDB/LK

                        And you offer a squad of six...
                      4. 0
                        31 January 2024 15: 32
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        They confused it with "Victory". "Peresvet"

                        perhaps, but wasn’t the hole near Peresvet? and the bulkhead did not hold up well as the speed increased?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        “Poltava” has nothing to do with it.

                        weren't they 2 miles behind in the second phase?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And you offer a squad of six...

                        yes, based on the composition of the enemy units and the presence of admirals... well, without afterthought, if possible...
                      5. +1
                        31 January 2024 15: 59
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        Wasn’t there a hole near Peresvet?

                        No. yes you have already noticed...
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        weren't they 2 miles behind in the second phase?

                        And then they caught up...
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        yes, based on the composition of enemy troops and the presence of admirals...

                        It's a bad idea to shuffle lineups before a fight.
                      6. 0
                        31 January 2024 16: 08
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It's a bad idea to shuffle lineups before a fight.

                        why before the fight? there are more than two weeks before the battle and it was the ZPR that determined the time of its start - it is possible to train the crews for an additional week. In reality, he organized the exercises... The ships had been sailing for six months already, new detachments would have sailed quickly, especially since 4 out of 6 were old...
                        Bonus - uncertainty for Togo... bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And then they caught up...

                        which says that VKV is right - you need to maintain a reasonably possible speed in battle, malfunctions can be overcome... keep the ZPR 12 knots at 1BO and then after rebuilding, who knows what happened... request
                      7. +1
                        31 January 2024 16: 21
                        Sorry, but the only benefit that seems real to me from Nebogatov’s appointment... is that he will die along with Oslyabya and will not be able to capitulate with the remnants of the squadron.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        keep ZPR 12 knots at 1BO and then after rebuilding, who knows what happened

                        To some extent I agree. Maybe some kind of lakishot happened...
                        But the ending would be the same
                      8. 0
                        31 January 2024 16: 59
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        the fact that he will die along with Oslyabya and will not be able to capitulate with the remnants of the squadron

                        The question is - why on Oslyab? bully And that instead of surrendering it would have been wiser to take battle? Which didn't solve anything?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But the ending would be the same

                        who knows... The battle began at 38 kts, if he had not slowed down and went to 12 knots instead of 9, then this would be -0,5 kts/min, i.e. the battle would begin at a shorter distance and further reduce the distance - the probability of hits should increase - more hits - a higher probability of a good one ...
                        It was not for nothing that many participants in the battle considered this an opportunity...
                      9. 0
                        31 January 2024 17: 23
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        And that instead of surrendering it would have been wiser to take battle?

                        Nebogatov needed to make a decision. Either he can fight or he can't. In the first case, go into battle, in the second, leave. To a neutral port, like Enquist, or to the nearest land to save the crews, but sink the ships, as the commander of the Dmitry Donskoy did.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        who knows...

                        So no, yes request
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        It was not for nothing that many participants in the battle considered this an opportunity...

                        Kostenko and Novikov who suggested rushing to the front?
                      10. 0
                        31 January 2024 18: 32
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Kostenko and Novikov who suggested rushing to the front?

                        1) Probably still Kostenko - Novikov is just a battalion feel
                        2) I think this is a mistake - it would take a lot of time to rebuild and it’s not a fact that the detachment was capable of performing such a maneuver...
                        3) but sharply increase the speed when changing lanes, ideally to the maximum possible 15-16 knots, even with the risk of falling behind due to a breakdown - with a slight adjustment of a couple of points (so as not to mess up), especially if the squad had all 6 EDBs with new artillery, then yes - there was a chance to both cause noticeable damage and even sink the end BRKR, and force Togo and Kamimura to maneuver separately.... Alas.....
                      11. 0
                        31 January 2024 18: 34
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Nebogatov needed to make a decision. Either he can fight or he can't. In the first case, go into battle, in the second, leave.

                        This was very reasonable at night, when he was overtaking everyone, and not in the morning in view of the enemy... However, the order of the ZPR - Vladik... request
                      12. 0
                        1 February 2024 18: 10
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        and not in the morning in view of the enemy...

                        If my memory serves me right, six hours passed before the remains of the squadron were discovered and surrounded. But Nebogatov, for some unknown reason, continued to go to Vladik.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        However, the ZPR order

                        1) So there was an order after all? wink
                        2) But the head is not only for wearing a headdress?
                        Or did you also lack experience?
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        Probably still Kostenko - Novikov is just a battalion

                        Certainly. One came up with the idea, the other replicated it.
                        Moreover, Silych, judging by his memoirs, did not hesitate to lecture the commanders of the RKKF, as they say, as it should have been!
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        ideally up to the maximum possible 15-16 knots

                        It is unlikely. But as for me, even before 12+ it would have been... well, in any case, it wasn’t worse!
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        cause noticeable damage or even sink the terminal BRKR.

                        I'm telling you, only if the lakishot...
                      13. 0
                        31 January 2024 15: 36
                        alas, I mixed it up with Retvizan... request
              2. +2
                30 January 2024 18: 38
                Quote: DrEng02
                it was his maneuvers that led to the need for Togo's noose"
                as well as the death of Oslyabya

                The death of "Oslyabi" was caused by the passivity of Baer, ​​who did not even think of turning back a little to give the first detachment time to finish rebuilding.
                1. +1
                  31 January 2024 14: 05
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Baer's passivity led to the death of "Oslyabi"

                  1) Baer had no experience driving a squadron,
                  2) Baer did not just have a battle plan or even an understanding of the ZPR maneuvering plan.
                  1. -1
                    31 January 2024 14: 12
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    Baer had no driving experience squadrons,

                    What does this have to do with it? He chose the worst possible option for his ship. And about the one subordinate to him by force of circumstances detachment I just forgot.
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    Baer had no... understanding

                    I was just confused. The man was not ready for the admiral's position, although he had already met the qualifications for production.
                    1. +2
                      31 January 2024 14: 58
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      I was just confused. The man was not ready for the admiral's position, although he had already met the qualifications for production.

                      1) What am I talking about? If you are for such accuracy, you have no experience driving a squad.
                      2) So that subordinates do not get lost from the tyranny of their superiors, it is customary to give a combat order! I was taught on land, but even there the actions in case of a sudden meeting with the enemy were prescribed... And so for most people it’s their first battle, their nerves are on edge, and the admiral is weird with maneuvers... and everyone is to blame except him... bully
                      1. -1
                        31 January 2024 15: 50
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        had no experience driving a squad.

                        Really?
                        but I thought he commanded the flagship battleship of this very detachment, which spent most of the campaign at the head of the column. And after Felkerzam fell ill, he began to command the entire detachment
                        It would seem that you are learning, gaining experience...
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        I was taught on land, but even there the actions in case of a sudden meeting with the enemy were prescribed...

                        Yes. Kuropatkin did just that in that war. wrote instructions down to where to send which company... Lost all the battles
                      2. 0
                        31 January 2024 15: 59
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        but I thought he commanded the flagship battleship of this very detachment, which spent most of the campaign at the head of the column.

                        Do you think the figure of the admiral is superfluous? or the commander of the ship on the flagship?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Lost all the battles

                        1) extremes are closing in... if it’s not a secret, which ZPR won?
                        2) are you against the combat order? Take a look, I'm waiting for your objections... feel
                        “BATTLE ORDER is a form of setting tasks for subordinate troops (forces) during preparation and during an operation (battle). The battle order must be brief, extremely clear, excluding any possibility of different interpretation. It usually indicates: brief conclusions from the assessment of the group and the probable nature of the actions of the commander; the combat mission of the formation (unit, unit, ship, subdivision) and the tasks performed in their interests by the senior commander; the tasks of neighbors and demarcation lines with them; the plan of the operation (battle); combat missions to distributed forces and assets (elements of operational formation); basic consumption types of ammunition; places and times of deployment of control points and directions of their movement; time of readiness to perform a task. B.p. can be given orally and in writing (combined and combined), on the ground or on a map. B.p., given orally for food. and conn., then sent in writing to the unit and drawn up as a combat document (see also Combat Order, Directive). The unit commander gives the B.p. orally, usually on the spot."
                        https://encyclopedia.mil.ru/encyclopedia/dictionary/details_rvsn.htm?id=3549@morfDictionary
                      3. 0
                        31 January 2024 16: 09
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        Do you think the figure of the admiral is superfluous?

                        No need to distort. I'm talking about experience.
                        Well, there was no extra admiral, and no one more experienced than Baer in the second detachment. He failed.
                        It's not like beating sailors...
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        which ZPR won?

                        A question like what is lighter, warm or soft?
                        The conditions are a little different. At least in terms of the balance of forces.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        are you against the combat order?

                        What, there was no order at all?
                        Or was it...
                      4. 0
                        31 January 2024 16: 48
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        No need to distort. I'm talking about experience.

                        why distort? I just clarified that the admiral has the same tasks, the ship commander has his own! And being 2 in 1 is not so easy! Didn't the ZPR understand this?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It's not like beating sailors.

                        in those days everyone was beaten or flogged, or like Viron - put on trial.....
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The conditions are a little different. At least in terms of the balance of forces.

                        I agree that the ZPR had more main battery guns....
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Or was it still there?

                        which one do you mean?
                        Order No. 29 of January 10, 1905?
                        Likharev’s point of view is closer to me
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/vitse-admiral-z-p-rozhestvenskiy-v-otsenkah-sovetskih-i-rossiyskih-istorikov/viewer
                        By the way, do you have dissertations from Shabutskaya N.E.? feel
                      5. +1
                        31 January 2024 17: 14
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        I just clarified that the admiral has the same tasks, the ship commander has his own!

                        This is undoubtedly true. But the conversation was about experience, which Baer had more than anyone else.
                        I don’t think that with the eagle on the epaulette, some previously inaccessible bonus of knowledge and skills flew into my head.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        in those times all beat or flogged

                        First of all, this is not even close to true.
                        Secondly, even if so, not everyone was put on trial for this.
                        That is, Vladimir Iosifovich really got it wrong.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        closer to me

                        This is as much as necessary.
                        Freedom of opinion is all we have left request
                      6. 0
                        1 February 2024 12: 18
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I don’t think that with the eagle on the epaulette, some previously inaccessible bonus of knowledge and skills flew into my head.

                        This is of course, but responsibility gives rise to new experience...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        First of all, this is not even close to true.

                        I don’t see the point in the discussion - we won’t be able to understand the morals of that time from today... well, I’ll understand the scene from the film Moonsund - when Menshikov explains to Gostyukhin why he hit the orderly...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Freedom of opinion is all we have left

                        that’s all... but you’re an optimist... feel
                      7. 0
                        1 February 2024 18: 22
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        We cannot understand the morals of that time from today...

                        Nothing complicated there. To the officer, in modern language, zapadlo to beat the sailor personally, otherwise than under hot hand. (But this is also uncivilized. It’s like picking your nose in public.) For this there are the same sailors, but with bason (straps) on their shoulder straps.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        I’ll understand well the scene from the film Moonsund - when Menshikov explains to Gostyukhin why he hit the messenger...

                        A feature film, based on a work of fiction...
                        And also Pikul, whom I, however, treat with the greatest respect as a writer. But not as a source. Everything is bad here for Valentin Savich.
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        that's all.

                        fellow
                      8. 0
                        2 February 2024 12: 57
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It’s a shame to beat a sailor personally

                        exactly, just like a landowner flogging peasants... the classes are different...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        A feature film, based on a work of fiction...
                        Kuprin's fight is also a work of art... sometimes a scene in a work of art is more accurate than a whole fund of documents...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        however, I have the greatest respect as a writer
                        I agree - he is not a bore... drinks
                      9. 0
                        2 February 2024 14: 16
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        Kuprin's fight is also a work of art... sometimes a scene in a work of art is more accurate than a whole fund of documents...

                        It is true, but Kuprin himself served as an officer in the outback and had the opportunity to observe everything described personally and even participate.
                        The filmmakers, as well as Valentin Savvovich, did not have such an opportunity.
                        Not to mention that in the book all this is presented somewhat differently)
                      10. +2
                        31 January 2024 21: 00
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        By the way, do you have dissertations from Shabutskaya N.E.?

                        I have. There is nothing interesting in it for me and a lot of errors. If you're interested, I can send it.
                      11. 0
                        1 February 2024 12: 13
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There is nothing interesting in it for me and a lot of errors.

                        Thank you, I understood this from the abstract hi Just wanted to give an example...
              3. +3
                30 January 2024 18: 53
                as well as the death of Oslyabya request, did you yourself understand the idea of ​​the ZPR about braking 1 BO in view of the enemy? According to all the canons, he should have accelerated, at least by 14 knots for a jerk and realized the potential of Russian AP shells with 15-20 cables...

                belay Fuck it. You should first read the same Tsushima cycle by the author, and then play with boats on the sofa...
                In 10 years at VO I have already seen so many “naval commanders”, especially Tsushima specialists lol
                Nothing new... laughing
                1. +1
                  31 January 2024 14: 06
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  In 10 years at VO I have already seen so many “naval commanders”

                  and how long have I been in Tsushima... bully
                2. 0
                  31 January 2024 14: 36
                  and how much I saw in Tsushima and in the Pigpen... bully
                  1. +1
                    31 January 2024 17: 26
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    and how much I saw in Tsushima and in the Pigpen... bully

                    There are enough dreamers everywhere...
                    One "General Chernavsky" is worth something. wassat
    2. +1
      30 January 2024 16: 22
      Quote: alexandr_vd
      But for this you need to have an advantage in speed over the enemy!

      In fact, this is not entirely true, because in order to penetrate the armor of our EBRs, the enemy also had to get closer to the same 20-25 cables. And the idea of ​​fighting with land mines from afar was not even considered
  17. +4
    30 January 2024 18: 48
    Greetings, dear namesake drinks hi
    Plus it is still in the morning Yes
    Ohhh, I read the comments... You have fun here lol request
    Today it is absolutely obvious that saving on combat training and the quality of ammunition is absolutely unacceptable. Therefore, judging from the perspective of our time, the refusal to create an effective 305-mm high-explosive projectile looks like a stupid, unforgivable and completely inexplicable mistake.

    I absolutely agree with the first sentence. Although history never teaches anything.
    And regarding the 305-mm landmine - you know very well that the emphasis was on combat with 20kbt armor-piercing weapons, because it is now clear to us that there were so many good landmines. And then it was not a mistake. They probably didn’t think so request From the perspective of that time feel
    this mistake, while remaining unforgivable, becomes at least understandable

    It became a mistake after the fact Yes If (well, purely hypothetically) all the battles were fought at 20 kbt and Russia suddenly (where is the thread in the alternative universe) melted the AP shells of everyone and everything, then no one would remember about landmines, and the defamers would sing to armor-piercing shells and MTK for their wise approach to manning battleships Yes
    I won’t quibble over small details - in principle, everything is clear to me. As always, the point of view is balanced and understandable.
    Looking forward to the continuation, best regards hi
    1. +2
      30 January 2024 20: 39
      Good evening! hi
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And then it was not a mistake.

      So how? Using less than stellar ammunition is still wrong, even if it is considered a secondary weapon.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      It became a mistake after the fact

      In general, yes, that’s why I’m writing - “reasoning from the perspective of our time”
      1. +1
        30 January 2024 21: 33
        Using less than stellar ammunition is still wrong, even if it is considered a secondary weapon.

        Well, the comrades took the path of least resistance - if time is short, then we need to focus on what is more important based on the prevailing concept of combat at that time. That’s why it happened with landmines.
        The same manual contains information regarding most likely armor-piercing shells
        At the same time, the destructive effect of the shells themselves was quite strong in the event of an explosion. A relatively small explosive charge and a fuse in this case turned out to be advantages. While Japanese shells usually exploded as they passed through the hull plating, with most of the high-explosive and a significant part of the fragmentation action “remaining” outside the ship, Russian shells exploded inside the hull. The explosion produced large fragments with great destructive and lethal force, which pierced cabin partitions, decks and even the opposite side. This could lead to extensive flooding with water entering below the lower deck if hit close to the waterline at the ends

        This applies to 152 - 203mm. But the general trend will also apply to the EDB Group. It’s just that quantity has not turned into quality due to other factors. EMNIP, already discussed...
        So as the conditions of the battle changed, so did the results. The distances increased and it turned out that we actually didn’t have what we needed. They were going to fight in the clinch, and the enemy was bludgeoning from a distance.
        And I agree. We started the war half unprepared, without a balanced ammunition supply
        1. +2
          31 January 2024 08: 21
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Well, comrades took the path of least resistance

          So it is, what can we say.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          The explosion produced large fragments with great destructive and lethal force, which pierced cabin partitions, decks and even the opposite side.

          Only a high-quality landmine with its fragments was even capable of piercing armored decks, and with sufficient force to destroy the armored space
          1. +1
            31 January 2024 18: 19
            Only a high-quality land mine with its fragments was even capable of piercing armored decks

            Nikolaevich, the key word here is “quality” Yes
            And I completely agree with you hi
    2. +2
      31 January 2024 16: 00
      Quote: Rurikovich
      It became a mistake after the fact

      But even before the war, some people began to guess that the battles would be fought at a greater distance. In 1903, 1TOE began shooting with 35 cabs during exercises.
      https://rytik32.livejournal.com/1514.html
      1. +3
        31 January 2024 16: 41
        Quote: rytik32
        But even before the war, some people began to guess that the battles would be fought at a greater distance.

        It was already too late for the shells. That is, yes, of course, they guessed and started shooting, but there was absolutely no time left to develop and order land mines for this purpose
        1. 0
          1 February 2024 21: 48
          Well, let's speculate. Did a shot with a 75 mm steel projectile of the 1902 model hit the ships of the 2nd TOE? It is believed that he got it. IN AND. Kolchak, in his “History of the Obukhov Steel Plant in Connection with the Progress of Artillery Technology,” 1903 edition, announced that 6" and 12" high-explosive explosives with a normal filling coefficient at the Obukhov Plant are actually ready to go into production. But something didn’t work out.
          1. 0
            2 February 2024 12: 54
            Quote: AlexanderA
            Did a shot with a 75 mm steel projectile of the 1902 model hit the ships of the 2nd TOE?

            The steel projectile model 1902 was developed in 1902, ordered for production, and barely made it onto 1904TOE ships in 2. How do you propose to create landmines and provide ships with them based on the results of the 1903 shooting?
            Quote: AlexanderA
            IN AND. Kolchak, in his “History of the Obukhov Steel Plant in Connection with the Progress of Artillery Technology,” 1903 edition, announced that 6" and 12" high-explosive explosives with a normal filling coefficient at the Obukhov Plant are actually ready to go into production.

            I don’t remember this, can you remind me of the page?
            1. 0
              2 February 2024 14: 35
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I don’t remember this, can you remind me of the page?

              The book was published in 1903. I doubt that it was written and put into print in 1903.
              1. 0
                2 February 2024 14: 52
                It’s difficult to say - the term “preparing” can refer both to the readiness to go into series and to the process of creation.
                But yes, if we were really ready, then based on the results of the shooting in 1903, having placed an order in the same year, we could expect at least 2TOE to give something
                1. 0
                  2 February 2024 15: 19
                  If the filling coefficient was known to Kolchak with an accuracy of one hundredth of a percent, then we can confidently say that the shells of the required design had already been designed. As for production technologies. At the World Exhibition in Paris in 1900, the Obukhov plant exhibited 24 items. Among them:

                  8-in. 45 caliber cannon designed by A.F. Brink.
                  75-mm cannon of 50 calibers on the machine of the Captain Meller system.
                  47-mm Hotchkiss gun on the machine of the Captain Meller system.
                  37-mm Hotchkiss cannon on the machine of Captain Alekseev’s system.
                  Armor-piercing projectile for 12-dm. 40 caliber guns.
                  Armor-piercing projectile for 10-dm. 45 caliber guns.
                  8-in. and 6-in. 45 caliber armor-piercing shells.
                  Galvanic apparatus for determining the longitudinal deflection of Captain Rosenberg's guns.
                  Training barrel for 8-inch. 45 caliber gun.
                  Keleinikov's device for checking the aiming line.

                  Since the plant received the Grand Prix at the exhibition, there is no doubt about the quality of the armor-piercing shells on display. An enterprise capable of producing high-quality armor-piercing shells has all the capabilities to produce high-quality high-explosive shells.

                  It’s just that no one was in a hurry. By the way, the plant regularly disrupted plans for the production of military products:
                  1. 0
                    2 February 2024 15: 46
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    If the filling coefficient was known to Kolchak with an accuracy of one hundredth of a percent, then we can confidently say that the shells of the required design had already been designed

                    Absolutely not. This could be at the “wish list” level, or the customer’s technical specifications, or at the level of technical process development.
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    An enterprise capable of producing high-quality armor-piercing shells has all the capabilities to produce high-quality high-explosive shells.

                    Again, I disagree. In addition to technology, there is another limiter - production capacity. What, in fact, are you showing?
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    By the way, the plant regularly disrupted plans for the production of military products:
                    1. 0
                      2 February 2024 19: 52
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Absolutely not. This could be at the “wish list” level, or the customer’s technical specifications, or at the level of technical process development.

                      You will decide for yourself what the term “readiness” meant at that time. And it turns out that in one case you decipher the “unavailability of pyroxylin charges” (for 12” “high-explosive” shells) as the fact that these charges have already been developed, but for some reason (let’s say there was no pyroxylin for them in the entire Russian Empire) they were precisely For 12 dm shells, the 2nd TOE did not have time to produce - not a single one.

                      In another case, “preparing” (“The Obukhov plant is preparing high-explosive shells with an explosive charge of 9,5% for a 6-dm caliber and 7,75% for a 12-dm caliber”) You do not decipher as “started production” , but how it “develops” it, and at an early stage (“wish list” / “customer’s specifications”).

                      For me, “ready” in both cases means completion of development, i.e. the already mentioned “unavailability of pyroxylin charges” means that they simply did not get around to developing them.

                      But at the same time, I believe that since the filling coefficient of the 12 dm and 6 dm high-explosive shells of the Obukhov plant mentioned by Kolchak was known to him with an accuracy of one hundredth of a percent, it means that by the time Kolchak wrote the chapter on shells, the design documentation (“drawing”) for the mentioned 12 dm and 6 dm high-explosive shells were ready, and were not at the level of the customer’s “wants”/specifications.
                      1. 0
                        2 February 2024 21: 52
                        Quote: AlexanderA

                        You decide for yourself

                        Yes, I decided a long time ago.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And it turns out that in one case

                        Nothing works. There was not enough pyroxylin in the country. And as for the readiness of high-explosive shells with a high explosive content, which you managed to postulate from one phrase from Kolchak, and even allowing for different interpretations, nothing follows from it at all - neither that such shells were created by 1903, nor that that the Obukhov plant could produce them in commercial quantities.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        For me, “ready” in both cases means completion of development

                        Well, you came up with your own terminology and are trying to fit the sources to it.
                      2. 0
                        2 February 2024 23: 17
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Nothing works. There was not enough pyroxylin in the country.

                        How did you decide that in the country there was not enough pyroxylin to equip 12 dm shells?

                        Moreover, it is so insufficient that for a conventional thousand 12 dm of high-explosive shells for the 2nd TOE in the country, 6 tons of molded pyroxylin were not found?

                        https://istmat.org/node/25120?ysclid=ls51v3l4wa356594358

                        “In the same way, it is possible to expand the production of patterned pyroxylin at the Okhtensky Powder Plant from 6 thousand to 20 thousand poods per year, which will satisfy the need for it in the engineering department.”

                        The annual capacity of one Okhtensky gunpowder plant in 1904 was about a hundred tons of patterned pyroxylin. And here, for the conventional thousand 12 dm high-explosive shells of the Maritime Department, 6 tons of patterned pyroxylin were not found. And they didn’t even buy it abroad:

                        “Some of the guns, shells, gun cartridges and pyroxylin were ordered from abroad, but it is obvious that for state security it is necessary to eliminate in the future the need to turn to such an unreliable source of replenishment of needs, strengthening the resources of our factories.”

                        Apparently 12 dm high-explosive shells for the 2nd TOE did not find not only several tons of domestic pattern pyroxylin, but even money to purchase these several tons abroad?

                        I think you are familiar with the methodological principle of Occam's razor. So, from the fact that in the cellars of the battleships of the 2nd TOE there was not a single 12 dm high-explosive projectile with pyroxylin equipment due to the “not being ready for the charges”, it can be deduced that the country did not have several tons of patterned pyroxylin for making such charges (moreover, knowing that at the same time, such pyroxylin charges were simply not yet developed for 10 dm shells of the Military Department) - this is to mock the methodological principle of “Occam’s razor”.

                        Pyroxylin charges for 12 dm shells of the Naval Department have not yet been developed, just like similar charges for 10 dm shells of the War Department.

                        “No one was in a hurry” (C)

                        By the way, by May 15, 1905, 212 pounds of smokeless gunpowder were stored in the “laboratory warehouses” of the Vladivostok port “exclusively for loading shells.” Apparently there really was a terrible shortage of pyroxylin, and once in May 1905 it was planned to equip naval artillery shells with explosive charges of smokeless gunpowder instead of pyroxylin ones.
                      3. +1
                        3 February 2024 08: 58
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        How did you decide that in the country there was not enough pyroxylin to equip 12 dm shells?

                        Let's not repeat for a third time
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The annual capacity of one Okhtensky gunpowder plant in 1904 was about a hundred tons of patterned pyroxylin.

                        What was your consumption of pyroxylin? The question is not how much the plant produced, the question is how much it was ordered and whether it satisfied the need
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Apparently 12 dm high-explosive shells for the 2nd TOE did not find not only several tons of domestic pattern pyroxylin, but even money to purchase these several tons abroad?

                        It’s easy - see the issuance of funds for the 2nd round of ammunition. No money and goodbye.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Pyroxylin charges for 12 dm shells of the Maritime Department have not yet been developed

                        Stay with your opinion, I am quite ready to respect it.
  18. -2
    30 January 2024 20: 17
    By the way, at the time of Tsushima, the Russian fleet used black powder when loading guns. Not to be confused with a projectile!!!
    1. +4
      30 January 2024 20: 23
      Quote: Radius
      By the way, at the time of Tsushima, the Russian fleet used black powder when loading guns. Not to be confused with a projectile!!!

      Perhaps you meant individual ships, and not the entire fleet?
    2. +3
      30 January 2024 21: 11
      By the way, at the time of Tsushima, the Russian fleet used black powder when loading guns. Not to be confused with a projectile!!!

      The British in WWI used shells filled with black powder wink
      One observation we made at the beginning of the battle greatly amazed and encouraged us. Two enemy shells that fell close ricocheted and swept over the Lützow. Two long white shells, which by color I recognized as ordinary, filled with black powder. Black powder! That is why the effects of the British shells were so insignificant. The mistake of the British was their addiction to large calibers. Wherever such a projectile hit, the impact was powerful and the hole was cave-shaped, but the explosive effect was relatively weak.

      One time our fire control station was filled with the familiar smell of black powder and we smiled at each other. We also received several shells filled with stronger explosives, but apparently not armor-piercing, and their effect was only superficial.

      Until now, I scold myself for not firing armor-piercing shells in the first hour, but only high-explosive shells. I acted in this way according to general rules, backed up at the last moment by advice from an authoritative source. (The Japanese also fired at Russian ships in the Tsushima battle.) If we had fired armor-piercing shells, "Lion" and Admiral Beatty, in all likelihood, would not have survived the battle. One of our high-explosive shells hit the roof of the tower at an acute angle and did not crash, but, having pierced it, exploded. "

      This is Paschen during Jutland...
  19. +4
    31 January 2024 10: 24
    I enjoyed reading all the comments. It felt like I was on the good old Topvar. With a bunch of arguments in one direction or another, the debate is on a respectful level. This is what attracted me to this site at the time.
    1. +3
      31 January 2024 11: 45
      Thanks for the kind words. I note that it is very pleasant for me, as the author, to return
      Quote: Mekey Iptyshev
      Feels like you were on the good old Topvar
  20. 0
    1 February 2024 21: 28
    Quote: DrEng02
    The zigzags of weapon development are such that if you look at the Yamato, then a high-explosive (or PB?) projectile contains 4,5% explosive

    Were there high-explosive shells in the Yamato main caliber cellars?

    Is it necessary to write that Yamato had crappy main battery shells? Too light (if these were shells designed according to American or Soviet designs, they would weigh more than 1700 kg). And with fuses with a monstrous deceleration, which simply guaranteed that the shell would not have time to explode when it hit the unarmored side of the ship before it flew out through the other side.

    The only advantage of the Japanese shells apparently was the trinitroanisole used as an explosive with a TNT equivalent of 1,06. While ammonium picrate in American shells had a TNT equivalent of 0,95.
  21. 0
    1 February 2024 23: 21
    Quote: rytik32
    With 30 cables in those years, not a single shell would have penetrated the belt + bevel of a modern battleship and exploded further.
  22. 0
    2 February 2024 01: 02
    Quote: rytik32
    You are comparing shells from the 1890s to shells from the future.

    The explosive charge exploded and destroyed the shells of Russian shells into a relatively small number of large fragments that scattered forward in a narrow cone due to the extremely insignificant radial (to the sides) increment in the speed of the fragments. There was practically no fragmentation flow to the sides, especially back from the point of explosion of the projectile.

    “Russian shells did little damage to casemate artillery, although they regularly knocked out gunners. This paradox is explained by one of their interesting features: the formed beam of fragments was quite narrow and spread mainly in the direction of flight of the projectile. And in the case when the point of rupture was behind the gun (and you You can check this using the diagrams), the fragments did not damage it."

    For comparison, modeling of the fragmentation and high-explosive effects on armor of the explosion of a 155 mm M107 projectile (an already obsolete HE projectile, weight 40,82 to 43,88 kg, 6,62 kg of TNT, or 6,985 kg of TNT-RDX mixture):



    So, the Japanese 6" high-explosive projectile already in those days had a similar fragmentation and high-explosive effect.
    1. 0
      2 February 2024 18: 11
      Quote: AlexanderA
      So, the Japanese 6" high-explosive projectile already in those days had a similar fragmentation and high-explosive effect.

      The fragmentation effect of the 6-dm Japanese landmine was weak. The fragments were small, even thin water-permeable bulkheads contained them. And the high-explosive effect is also weak, compare with
      1. 0
        3 February 2024 03: 24
        The fragmentation effect of the 6-dm Japanese landmine was weak. The fragments were small, even thin water-permeable bulkheads contained them.


        Was it the Japanese 6 dm and 8 dm shells that tore holes in the steel plating of the side and scratched the armor of the 12 dm turret?

        And this pile of twisted scrap metal on the deck was also formed only by 8 dm and 12 dm Japanese shells?

        1. 0
          3 February 2024 19: 22
          Quote: AlexanderA
          and destroyed the armor of the 6 dm turret, Japanese 8 dm and 12 dm shells?

          Of course!
          Why do you show photos of hits from 12-inch shells?
          Post a photo of a 6-inch Japanese shell hitting the Orel pipe
      2. 0
        3 February 2024 03: 31
        Compared to what is the fragmentation effect weak? In comparison with the American 155 mm M107, whose large fragments penetrate armor up to 30 mm? Yes, the M107 produces over 2 thousand lethal fragments. The Japanese 6 dm shell did not give that much. The average fragment of a Japanese 6 dm projectile was larger than that of the M107, in which explosives account for about 16% of its weight.

        155-mm OFS M107, 43,1 kg, 6,99 kg type "B", detonation speed 7600 ms, initial throwing speed - 1130 ms, number of lethal fragments, more than 0,5 g - 2032 pcs. The radius of damage from explosives is 2 atm - 4 m (lethal), 0,5 atm - 8 m (concussion), fragmentation damage - 22,5 m (probability of damage - 0,2).
        Mass groups of fragments:
        0,5..1 g - 472 pcs, 23,2%.
        1..2 g - 369 pieces, 18,2% (41,4% of all fragments).
        2..3 g - 225 pieces, 11,1% (52,5% of all fragments).
        3..4 g - 150 pieces, 7,4% (59,8% of all fragments).
        4..6 g - 224 pieces, 11,1% (70,9% of all fragments).
        6..8 g - 126 pieces, 6,2% (77,1% of all fragments).
        8..10 g - 75 pieces, 3,7% (80,8% of all fragments).
        10..15 g - 141 pieces, 6,9% (87,7% of all fragments).
        15..20 g - 93 pieces, 4,6% (92,3% of all fragments).
        20..30 g - 157 pieces, 7,7% (100% of all fragments).
        1. 0
          3 February 2024 19: 21
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Compared to what is the fragmentation effect weak?

          In comparison with the Russian 6-dm high-explosive projectile.
          1. 0
            3 February 2024 20: 33
            In comparison with the Russian 6-dm high-explosive projectile.

            Do you mean with a Russian 6-inch high-explosive projectile of the 1907 model? Or are you talking about some other Russian 6-dm high-explosive projectile?

            And by the way, how do you like the fragmentation effect of the 155 mm OFS M107? also weak? After all, almost 60% of more than two thousand lethal fragments are NOT heavier than 4 grams.

            “Depending on the modification, the M107 projectile weighs from 43,2 to 43,88 kg, of which about 16% is explosive: trinitrotoluene (6,62 kg) or composition B[8] (6,985 kg)... Formulas statistical distribution of the mass and velocity of fragments [10] make it possible to estimate the proportion of fragments dangerous for armored vehicles (with a penetration capacity of more than 15 mm equivalent to steel armor) at 3-4%, and the radius of the dangerous zone for armored vehicles is 20 meters from the point of detonation of the projectile."
            1. 0
              3 February 2024 21: 41
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Do you mean with a Russian 6-inch high-explosive projectile of the 1907 model? Or are you talking about some other Russian 6-dm high-explosive projectile?

              I'm not comparing it to shells from the future. I'm talking about the shells that were used in the RYAV.
              1. 0
                4 February 2024 01: 00
                I'm not comparing with shells from the future

                Of course, after all, a comparison with the 155 mm M107 projectile still in use today with a much higher filling coefficient of high explosive than the Japanese Tsushima 6 dm high explosive with shimosa will clearly demonstrate that crushing even into over 2 thousand lethal steel fragments weighing from 0,5 grams is all it also produces up to a hundred fragments of fragments dangerous for armored vehicles (the newest M795, by the way, is worse in this regard than the aging M107) and will illustrate the banal idea that a lot of fragments does not at all reduce the fragmentation effect, because a shell filled with a sufficient amount of effective high explosive has high-velocity fragments and the heaviest of them are even capable of penetrating steel armor plates from 15 mm to 30 mm.

                In general, it’s interesting when someone regrets that the Tsar’s fleet at the turn of 1890 did NOT get a 6 dm steel mortar bomb from the Rudnitsky plant with an explosive content of 18 to 22,5% of the weight of the projectile, but at the same time declares that the Japanese Tsushima The fragmentation effect of a 6 dm high-explosive projectile was weak in comparison with the fragmentation effect of a 6 dm cast iron projectile from the Kane gun.

                After all, you classed the 6-dm cast-iron projectile for this gun with the modern Tsushima Russian 6-dm high-explosive projectile? RIF did not use others, NOT from the future, in the REV. After all, you can’t pass off a steel armor-piercing weapon as a Russian high-explosive one.
                And yes, the sign above. Having filled the Russian 6 dm steel armor-piercing melinite, we collected 392 fragments with a total mass of 33 Russian pounds, which gives us the average mass of the collected fragment 34,5 grams. Hmm, those gatherers were lazy. The Americans collected more carefully in those years. Over 800 fragments were collected after the explosion of a 127 mm shell filled with Maximit. Also a weak fragmentation effect compared to Russian 6 dm cast iron, right? And not even from the future. Not ready to compare either?
                1. +1
                  4 February 2024 23: 33
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  After all, you classed the 6-dm cast-iron projectile for this gun with the modern Tsushima Russian 6-dm high-explosive projectile?

                  I'm talking about a high-explosive 6-inch projectile.
                  After one hit by a 6-inch shell on the unarmored side close to the waterline, the Shikishima became a roll on turns, i.e. its MCV decreased significantly.
                  For example, hits from three 12-inch Japanese shells led to similar consequences at Peresvet.
                  But Russian shells are worse laughing laughing laughing
                  1. 0
                    17 February 2024 16: 28
                    After one hit by a 6-inch shell on the unarmored side close to the waterline, the Shikishima became a roll on turns, i.e. its MCV decreased significantly.
                    For example, hits from three 12-inch Japanese shells led to similar consequences at Peresvet.
                    But Russian shells are worse

                    Are you talking about this 6" shell?

                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/109611.html

                    "Figure 3 - Diagram of hits on the battleship "Shikishima" at Tsushima (clickable)

                    “The flooding was caused by a 152-mm shell, which at 14.30 hit the unarmored side above the waterline at the aft tower (the shell did not explode).”


                    Did I understand your humor correctly - an unexploded Russian 6" shell is as effective as three exploding 12" Japanese high-explosive shells?

                    Well, in this context, I completely agree with you! This example clearly shows that an unexploded Russian 6" steel shell was orders of magnitude superior to Japanese 6" high-explosive shells! laughing laughing laughing

                    In general, explosives in a shell are evil! A solid steel projectile is the best solution! laughing laughing laughing
                    1. 0
                      17 February 2024 21: 50
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Are you talking about this 6" shell?

                      Yes
                      unexploded Russian 6"

                      I don’t understand why Navalmanual decided that it didn’t explode.
                      The hole in the side, 30 cm wide and 50 cm high, is not typical for an unexploded 6-inch shell.
                      Did I understand your humor correctly?

                      This is not humor. A lot of water got in through the hole and it significantly worsened the ship’s MCV.
                      1. 0
                        17 February 2024 23: 43
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I don’t understand why Navalmanual decided that it didn’t explode.

                        I'm sure I've read about it. The source is as Japanese:

                        https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=660415

                        Details of hit No. 1 - at 14.30 an unexploded 6" shell pierced the side near the overhead line, causing some flooding (Mentioned by Campbell as the only one deserving, besides 12") All from the same document from Sasebo, page 299

                        So is the article by Campbell that you know:

                        http://battleships.spb.ru/Tsusima/Tsusima3.html

                        “The remaining hits caused minor damage, not counting the water received through the hole from an unexploded 6" shell that hit the right shell near the waterline.”
                      2. 0
                        18 February 2024 00: 08
                        I'm sure I read about it

                        I'm not sure)
                        Campbell's article

                        I don't care what Campbell or Navalmanual write. Neither one nor the other was in the Tsushima battle. And the ship’s commander writes in his report that the shell exploded.
                        Especially for you. Report https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/meta/listPhoto?LANG=default&BID=F2006090101400394413&ID=M2006090101400494424&REFCODE=C05110085300
                        Go to the 5th sheet of the PDF file (11 in total)
                        On the left page, the very first paragraph (I) describes our damage. Attention! The Japanese write in a column from right to left, the columns should be read from top to bottom. We need the 2nd column.
                        I underlined the hieroglyphs where it is written about the explosion in red:
                        弾丸ハ破裂
                        Translation: "the shell exploded."
                        If you don't trust me:
                        https://japanese_russian.academic.ru/3264/弾丸
                        https://japanese_russian.academic.ru/127745/破裂
                      3. 0
                        18 February 2024 00: 36
                        I don't care what Campbell or Navalmanual write. Neither one nor the other was in the Tsushima battle. And the ship’s commander writes in his report that the shell exploded.

                        Is this exactly the same projectile? Above you write:
                        After one hit by a 6-inch shell on the unarmored side close to the waterline, the Shikishima became a roll on the turns

                        And I’m still trying to find where the Shikishima has an unarmored side close to the waterline.

                        In your article dated September 19, 2020, you write:

                        https://topwar.ru/175171-cusima-snarjadnaja-versija-snarjad-protiv-broni.html

                        “On the “Sikishima” at 14:30 (-) a 6” shell made a hole measuring 102x30 cm in the 48-mm armor of the aft belt and caused some flooding. Campbell writes that there was no gap, but the size of the damage to the armor plate casts doubt on his words. "

                        Well, that's a completely different matter. I can give you a photo of what kind of breaches in the frontal armor of, say, “Panthers” were caused by “a 152 mm blank hit the tank”:

                        So do you think that the Russian 152 mm high-explosive shell, with its explosion on the armor plate, caused a breach in the Harvey 102 mm plate of the Shikishima belt 30x50 cm?
                      4. 0
                        18 February 2024 00: 50
                        Is this exactly the same projectile?

                        Yes
                        made in 102 mm stern belt armor

                        This is a mistake, I thought there was armor there.
                        And I’m still trying to find where the Shikishima has an unarmored side close to the waterline

                        The hole was above the waist, and the waves were high. On Navalmanual's diagram this hole is indicated correctly.
                        caused a breach

                        There was still damage inside.
                      5. 0
                        18 February 2024 01: 30
                        This is a mistake, I thought there was armor there.

                        So, according to the Shikishima armor scheme, it is precisely 102 mm armor. Or in the Battle of Tsushima, by 14:30, "Shikishima" was so overloaded that its main belt was sunk and the actual waterline was close to the upper edge of the main belt?
                        There was still damage inside.

                        So that’s what Brink had in mind: The projectile, with its “manpower”, pierces/breaks through the armor, and the double-capsule fuse of its design delays the detonation sufficiently for the projectile to explode behind the armor.

                        And as you can see, a 152 mm armor-piercing projectile equipped with a bottom inertial fuse with deceleration could leave a quite picturesque hole in an 80 mm cemented armor plate inclined at 55 degrees. Distance 1200 m. The initial speed of the BR-540 projectile fired from the ML-20 is 600 m/s. The muzzle energy of the projectile is significantly (1,48 times) less than that of the 6" Kane.

                        But if you think that the hit was on an unarmored side, you understand that a Japanese 6" high-explosive would have left a hole in such a side with an area many times larger, with torn curved edges that would not be conducive to sealing the hole with a plaster. And in the cabin on the side plating of which the explosion occurred total destruction would have been observed. The Japanese high-explosive one would have accurately produced over 1000 lethal fragments, of which several dozen heavy ones weighing tens and a few hundred grams would have pierced the internal bulkheads to the opposite side.
                      6. 0
                        18 February 2024 01: 42
                        So, according to the Shikishima armor scheme, it is precisely 102 mm armor.

                        See diagram.
                        of these, several dozen heavy ones weighing tens and the first hundreds of grams would have pierced the internal bulkheads to the opposite side

                        Can you give examples of such an impact?
                        A 1-inch shell hit the 12st compartment of the Peresvet. There is a large hole, there is even a photo of two sailors looking through it. But the watertight bulkhead remained intact.
                      7. 0
                        21 February 2024 18: 51
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Can you give examples of such an impact?
                        A 1-inch shell hit the 12st compartment of the Peresvet. There is a large hole, there is even a photo of two sailors looking through it. But the watertight bulkhead remained intact.


                        "Eagle", Tsushima, left bow turret of medium caliber:

                        “Soon after this, as a result of a 203-mm semi-armor-piercing [sic!] projectile hitting the 152-mm armor on the left, at the base, the turret became jammed. The left gun frame was broken, and a large hole was formed in the deck and unarmored side of the superstructure next to the turret. One of the large shell fragments pierced the armored roof of a battery of 75 mm guns with a thickness of 32 mm (hole size 12"x6"). The armor plates of the turret separated at the point of impact; the frontal plate, heavily damaged by the hit, was torn off from almost all the bolts - only 2 of them held the plate in place. Kostenko and Shwede say that as a result of this hit, all the tower servants were out of action, but, apparently, we are talking mainly about shell shock. The testimony of conductor Torchkov states that after the battle, examining the condition of the battleship’s guns on the orders of Lieutenant Shamshev, he found out that in the left bow turret 1 gunner was “killed outright” (according to Kostenko, “leaning against the armor at the moment of the shell’s impact, instantly died from a concussion without visible external injuries"), another 1 person was wounded in the arm. Torchkov sent the rest of the people from this tower to the right bow tower to replace the servants who were injured there as a result of the fire."
                      8. 0
                        21 February 2024 22: 19
                        203 mm semi-armor-piercing

                        This is fiction; Kostenko and Shwede clearly estimate the projectile at 12 dm.

                        One of the large shell fragments pierced the armored roof of a battery of 75 mm guns with a thickness of 32 mm (hole size 12"x6")

                        The hole is modest, our 12-dm made a 1,7x2 m hole in the 25-mm casemate flooring.

                        And where is the sheaf of fragments that flew to the opposite side???
                      9. 0
                        22 February 2024 01: 15
                        This is fiction; Kostenko and Shwede clearly estimate the projectile at 12 dm.


                        Kostenko also counted 42 12" hits: "26 12-inch shells hit the thin side and superstructures, and 16 hit the armor of the turrets and waist protection."

                        To be honest, I don’t care how anyone evaluates the caliber of the shell that exploded on the vertical armor plate of the bow 6" turret of the left side of the "Eagle". The armor plate of the turret is concave and torn off from almost all the bolts, the raised roof of the turret, the armored caps blown off the roof, the broken frame of the left gun, the turret is skewed on skating rinks with the tower jammed, the hole in the deck in the photo - all this is impressive.

                        You wanted an example of how a large fragment of a Japanese shell penetrated 30 (32) mm armor. I gave this example.

                        How many fragments of Russian shells, flying at least 1,5 m from the explosion site, dealt with 1,25" armor?
                        The hole is modest, our 12-dm made a 1,7x2 m hole in the 25-mm casemate flooring.

                        Give an example of how a fragment of a Russian shell, having flown at least 1,5 meters, left a hole of similar size in 1,25" armor.
                        And where is the sheaf of fragments that flew to the opposite side???

                        Do you really think that a fragment that penetrated 1,25" armor, if it had flown through unarmored bulkheads, would not have reached the opposite side? The most interesting thing is that it was clearly not a fragment that flew in the direction of the vector of movement of the projectile before the explosion of the last one, but a fragment that flew under, so to speak, " orthogonal" angle to this vector. Since the steel in the nose of the Japanese projectile was thicker, and the velocity vectors of the projectile and the fragments of its nose after the explosion were added up, the most armor-piercing fragments flew forward along the flight vector of the projectile.

                        “The muzzles of many of the guns were cut to a depth of up to an inch on the outside by larger fragments.” Kostenko

                        Still doubt that large fragments of Japanese shells that exploded on the unarmored plating of one side could reach the opposite unarmored side?

                        “Two 75-inch shells flew into the bow casemate through the gun port of a 8-mm gun, one after another. Both guns on the left side were immediately rendered unusable. Some of the fragments flew through the door in the armored bulkhead to the starboard side and disabled another starboard one. gun. Shrapnel from the explosion of these two shells killed the casemate commander, midshipman Shchupinsky, and three gun servants, and all the other gunners of the left casemate were put out of action."

                        “A 75-inch shell flew into the bow casemate of the 8-mm guns, already broken by two 12-inch shells, and, exploding inside the casemate, completely distorted it, threw the guns out of the trunnions and caused an explosion of the pavilions with cartridges on the starboard side.”

                        How many cases do you remember when Russian shells destroyed guns on the opposite side with their fragments?

                        "Two 6-inch shells hit the vertical armor and the mother's side of the rear right 6-inch turret. The second shell jammed the turret. A large fragment got stuck between the mother's shell and the fixed armor. The tower was soon corrected by the servants, who, having peeled off the armored door, went outside. The fragment , stuck in the gap of the mamerinets, the gunners knocked them out with crowbars."

                        What small large fragments the Japanese 6" shells had.

                        “An 8-inch shell hit the unprotected side above the waist armor in cabin No. 20 on the 81st frame on the gun deck and completely destroyed the entire cabin, creating a hole in the side with an area of ​​up to 30 sq. ft. level with the gun deck, 5 feet above the waterline : The 2-inch armor of the battery deck withstood the explosion, and the surrounding cabin bulkheads burst at the seams, the door flew off its hinges, all the furniture was broken, but no fire occurred. Shell fragments riddled all the light internal bulkheads. I was placed in this cabin on the trip. All things , a bed, a desk with drawings, papers and books were lost."

                        “The most dangerous was the hole on the port side on the 71st frame in my cabin No. 20. It was 5X6 feet in size and reached almost to the battery deck, having extremely torn curved edges of the plating. It was not possible to straighten the edges with the help of hammers. Attempts to close the hole with a shield outside were unsuccessful, since the wave from the port side hit the seals and threw out the bunks. At the end of the day's battle, the bilge mechanic Rooms took up the task of sealing this hole, since this side hole threatened danger in the event of an underwater hole and a list. Having made sure that it was impossible to seal it, the hole was covered with a canvas plaster on the outside of the side, and the ends of the sail were secured below to the shelves of the net fence and tied from above with cable ends to the bollards on the poop. This measure immediately reduced the ingress of water from overboard when passing the ridges."

                        “On explosion, the 12-inch shell destroyed all hull devices in the area of ​​the explosion, capturing a sphere up to 17 feet in diameter. The explosion inside the ship tore off all surrounding light bulkheads up to 8 feet away; shafts and coal hoses were torn and twisted.
                        Meanwhile, the 8-inch shell, exploding at the side of the battery deck, did not harm even the thin cabin bulkheads, piercing them only with large fragments, but without destroying the cabin furnishings."

                        Here Kostenko has mutually exclusive paragraphs. He forgot that his cabin was “completely destroyed” by an 8-inch shell.
                      10. 0
                        22 February 2024 09: 02
                        Kostenko also counted 42 12" hits: "26 12-inch shells hit the thin side and superstructures, and 16 hit the armor of the turrets and waist protection."

                        Moreover, Kostenko listed all the hits in a list from 1 to 140, indicating the caliber and location of the hit.

                        it's all impressive

                        Isn't the knocked-out rear wall of the Fuji tower impressive?

                        You wanted an example of how a large fragment of a Japanese shell penetrated 30 (32) mm armor


                        I wanted “several dozen heavy ones weighing tens and the first hundreds of grams would pierce the internal bulkheads to the opposite side”

                        Still doubt that large fragments of Japanese shells that exploded on the unarmored plating of one side could reach the opposite unarmored side?


                        Of course, I only remember one such case.

                        How many cases do you remember when Russian shells destroyed guns on the opposite side with their fragments?

                        In this example, all the guns are in one room.

                        I invite you to read https://topwar.ru/236748-luchshij-snarjad-cusimy.html
                      11. 0
                        23 February 2024 21: 44
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Moreover, Kostenko listed all the hits in a list from 1 to 140, indicating the caliber and location of the hit.

                        I have already illustrated with quotes why I cannot take seriously either the assessment of the number of hits from Kostenko, or the assessment of the caliber of shells by their effect from Kostenko. It is trite that in the MTK report “Borodino-class battleships in the Battle of Tsushima” and in the descriptions of the consequences of the explosion in his cabin on the “Eagle” of an 8" shell, there is a radically different assessment of the damaging effect of Japanese 8" shells. And these “mutually exclusive paragraphs” easily coexisted in the book of his memoirs.

                        The most unfantastic estimate of the number of hits in the "Eagle" and their caliber by the Japanese. There was no need for them to inflate either one or the other.

                        The fact that the armor of the left bow turret of the "Eagle" was hit by an 8" shell is a Japanese estimate.

                        And not a single 12" gun fired at the "Eagle" during this period. For the Japanese battleships, it was an inconvenient target. And the place of impact was "shaded" from the battleships by the same turret.

                        Isn't the knocked-out rear wall of the Fuji tower impressive?

                        The impact of the residual “manpower” of more than 300 kg of the projectile body on the slab from the inside before its explosion was enough to tear it off its bolted fastenings.

                        Or did you find examples of how Russian shells exploded armor plates and armor plates on Japanese ships? In my opinion, this effect was typical only for Japanese shells, even with an explosion outside the slab. Like, for example, the already marked 152 mm vertical plate of the left bow 6" turret of the "Eagle", and the half-torn armor plate of its roof.

                        “Having climbed to the upper deck, I found my turret completely knocked down: the armored door had been torn off, there was a pool of blood inside, one corpse, the frame of the left gun was broken, the commander’s cap was destroyed, the bow plate had three cracks, was torn off all the bolts and barely held on to the edge of the table, the whole the turret was apparently skewed on the rollers and tilted backwards, the deck around it was completely torn apart. Remembering that I had seen the commander of the aft group, midshipman Bubnov, wounded at the operational post, I went to replace him. Walking along the deck was very difficult: everywhere there were masses of scrap iron, gear; handrails and etc." Lieutenant Slavinsky

                        I wanted “several dozen heavy ones weighing tens and the first hundreds of grams would pierce the internal bulkheads to the opposite side”


                        Several dozen such fragments at close range piercing modern 15-30 mm armor are produced by the American OFS M107 containing ~16% of its mass of TNT-hexogen mixture.

                        The Japanese 6" high-explosive projectile definitely produced more heavy fragments, although at a slightly lower speed than the American M107. This was due to both the lower content of high explosive in it compared to the M107, and the lower high explosive of this explosive. This is structurally determined.

                        You can try to formulate a theory about the relatively low fragmentation effect of Japanese shells only by citing facts about the high frequency of incomplete detonation of the explosives of these shells. There is no other way. If the detonation was complete, there would inevitably be fairly heavy high-velocity fragments in the fragmentation spectrum after the explosion.

                        In general, admit that: “The holes in the 3/8-inch-thick casing had dimensions: from a 12-inch shell - 8X8 feet, from an 8-inch shell - 5X6 feet, from a 6-inch 3X3 feet" - look at the photo of fragmentation holes in Russian armor, on the steel unarmored side of the same "Eagle" riddled with hundreds and hundreds of fragmentation holes and talking about the relatively weak fragmentation effect of Japanese shells - that's it.

                        I even found the 1,25" roof armor of the 75 mm Orel battery, pierced by a heavy fragment of a Japanese shell, and you convince me that the fragmentation effect of the Japanese shells was weaker than that of the Russians?

                        Find 1,25" armor on a Japanese ship at least a couple of meters from the point of explosion, pierced by a fragment of a Russian shell flying NOT forward along its trajectory, then at least it will be possible to talk about the effect of heavy fragments of Russian shells on light armor comparable to the Japanese.

                        In the meantime, we can only state that Japanese shells produced many times more lethal fragments in comparison with Russian ones of the same caliber, and the fragments flew not only forward in a narrow cone, but also to the sides, and even backwards. Heavy fragments of Japanese shells, even scattering to the sides, could penetrate armor up to 1,25" several meters from the point of explosion.

                        In this example, all the guns are in one room.

                        The wall and the door in it are already two rooms.

                        I invite you to read

                        I read to "But the production of large blocks of molded pyroxylin turned out to be difficult, so 12-inch shells had to be equipped with fine-grained smokeless gunpowder and a fuse of the 1894 model until the end of the Russo-Japanese War."

                        You, I’m sure, are aware that the Military Department simply did not have time to develop pyroxylin charges for 10" shells.
                        https://istmat.org/node/24958 1901 г. "В минувшем году... на Охтенских заводах было еще изготовлено... 6644 пуда пироксилина и снаряжено мелинитом 10766 6‑дм бомб... На текущий год пороховым заводам дан наряд изготовить... 3624 пироксилиновых заряда для 8‑дм бомб и легких мортир и снарядить мелинитом 15 770 6‑дм бомб."
                        Should I look for the mass of the pyroxylin charge in the 8" War Department bomb?
                        "The bomb weighed 98,4 kg, of which 20,5 kg was pyroxylin."
                        https://istmat.org/node/25120 1904 г. "На 1905 год пороховым заводом дан наряд изготовить... 2130 пироксилиновых зарядов для 9‑дм и 11‑дм бомб и снарядить мелинитом 12 235 6‑дм бомб... Точно так же возможно расширить производство лекального пироксилина при Охтенском пороховом заводе с 6 тыс. до 20 тыс. пудов в год, чем удовлетворится потребность в нем инженерного ведомства."
                        “The Commission on the Use of Explosives in Equipment (KPVV, organizationally part of the GAU) in February 1907 decided to check all pyroxylin ammunition and recognized the need in the future to replace pyroxylin with another explosive, for example, TNT. At the beginning of 1907, in fortresses and siege regiments "consisted of 48 pyroxylin charges, so the work on checking and rejecting them required several years. Test shots ended in a number of cases with explosions of the guns."

                        Will you insist that the 12nd TOE did not have 2" high-explosive shells with pyroxylin equipment at all precisely because "the production of large blocks of patterned pyroxylin turned out to be difficult"?

                        Factories throughout the Empire were unable to produce at least 800 pyroxylin charges for 12" "high-explosive" shells of battleships of the 2nd TOE at the beginning of the century, producing several thousand 20,5 kg of pyroxylin charges per year for 8" mortar bombs of the Military Department?
                      12. 0
                        23 February 2024 22: 40
                        And these “mutually exclusive paragraphs” easily coexisted in the book of his memoirs

                        Do similar contradictions in other sources not bother you?
                        Explain why you make such claims only against Kostenko?

                        The most non-fantastic estimate of the number of hits in the "Eagle" and their caliber by the Japanese

                        Only the Japanese assessment is far from complete. Many hits were not included in the Japanese evaluation.
                        Doesn't this bother you?

                        The fact that the armor of the left bow turret of the "Eagle" was hit by an 8" shell is a Japanese estimate.

                        What are you saying! Give a link to the Japanese

                        And not a single 12" gun fired at the Eagle during this period.

                        Is there an exact time of impact? Is there a complete list of who was shooting at whom at this time?
                        Or are you retelling other people's fantasies?

                        Or did you find examples of how Russian shells exploded armor plates and armor plates on Japanese ships?

                        Yes, there are examples when armor fastening bolts were weakened or torn off due to the impact of our shells, and plates were pressed in.

                        gives American OFS M107

                        Are you generally an adequate conversationalist? Why are you dragging in OFS M107?
                        Nothing to answer? Ok, accepted!

                        Find 1,25" armor

                        This is where you can end your search. There is no such armor.

                        Heavy fragments of Japanese shells, even scattering to the sides, could penetrate armor up to 1,25" several meters from the point of explosion.

                        Yeah, one case out of a hundred.

                        The wall and the door in it are already two rooms

                        Please look at the drawing

                        You will insist that the 12nd TOE did not have 2" high-explosive shells with pyroxylin equipment at all


                        It was not at the 1st TOE, nor at the 2TOE, nor at the Black Sea Fleet at the beginning of the REV.
                      13. 0
                        27 February 2024 00: 14
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Do similar contradictions in other sources not bother you? Do similar contradictions in other sources not bother you?
                        Explain why you make such claims only against Kostenko?

                        Of course they are worried. And why did you decide that only Kostenko? Neither the 42 12" Japanese shells from Kostenko that hit the Eagle, nor the 9 Japanese 12" shells that hit the six 6" turrets of the Eagle from Packingham do NOT pass the test of my common sense and critical thinking. Moreover, the 12" shell from the first four The battleships in the Japanese wake simply could not, at the time it happened, get to where the shell exploded on the armor of the left 6" bow turret of the Eagle, completely putting the turret out of action. It was a shell from one of Kamimura's cruisers.
                        Only the Japanese assessment is far from complete. Many hits were not included in the Japanese evaluation.

                        The Japanese repaired the damage to the Eagle at the shipyard. If in the "Description of military operations at sea in 37-38 Meiji" they did not count any hits of 12", 8" and 6" caliber shells on the "Eagle", then they were only insignificant, and they certainly did not underestimate the number of these hits several times, especially in 12" and 8" calibers.

                        What are you saying! Give a link to the Japanese


                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/56157.html

                        [...]

                        The breakdown for the remaining holes is below:

                        12. 2’5”x3’2”, 8-дм

                        Discussion of hitting the left bow 6" turret with the above illustrations in the comments.
                        Is there an exact time of impact? Is there a complete list of who was shooting at whom at this time? Or are you retelling other people's fantasies?

                        I am retelling the “fantasy” of naval_manual. “It’s unlikely that the ship was very behind the beam, and this, EMNIP, was around 14.20 our time. Some kind of Yakumo, apparently. If not Asama, which, taking into account the evidence, drawings and diagrams I’ve read, looks convincing.

                        Convince me with descriptions, diagrams and drawings.

                        In the meantime, here's a quote:

                        “The time of hitting the left bow turret is no later than 14.30–14.40, since the photographs of the Eagle after the battle clearly show that the turret is jammed in a position close to the abeam. During the first phase of the battle, the target of the Eagle was close to the abeam twice - after transfer of fire to the Izumo at 14.20, and at about 14.50-15.00, when, during the divergence of counter courses, the "Eagle" fired at the armored cruiser "Nissin", which led the formation of the 1st combat detachment of the Japanese fleet after turning all of a sudden by 16 points. However, in the second case, all the Japanese ships were to the right of the turret's line of fire, and it was impossible to hit its port side.Therefore, there is little doubt that the port bow turret was destroyed by a hit from one of the rear Japanese armored cruisers approximately 40 minutes after opening fire."

                        Yes, there are examples when armor fastening bolts were weakened or torn off due to the impact of our shells, and plates were pressed in.

                        What about the armor plates torn off by Russian shells from most of the bolts on Japanese ships, such as the 6" plate of the left bow turret of the 6" "Eagle" held on by two bolts, or the almost torn and bent 3" plate of its main belt in the bow? Can you provide a description?
                        Are you generally an adequate conversationalist? Why are you dragging in OFS M107?
                        Nothing to answer? Ok, accepted!

                        Adequate interlocutors ask adequate questions. Unlike you, I am familiar with how high-explosive fragmentation ammunition developed from 1905 to the present. Are you suggesting that I not use this knowledge? So, from the knowledge of the beginning of the 1,25th century, the Russian shell was much inferior in fragmentation effect to the Japanese one. By the way, have you already seen our fragment of a Russian shell, a few meters from the point of explosion, penetrate 1" or at least 75" armor on a Japanese ship? Have you already figured out that the forward 1 mm casemate of the "Eagle" was not one room, but two, separated by a 0,5" armored bulkhead, and between the two guns on each side there were XNUMX" armored crossbeams?
                        Please look at the drawing

                        To see in the diagram what, a door in a non-existent (in your opinion) longitudinal armored bulkhead of the casemate?

                        "To protect the 75-mm casemates from longitudinal fire, 5-mm armored traverses were installed on 13, 31, 63, 91 and 76 rifles. 75-mm armored traverses were placed between the 12,7-mm guns, and the bow and stern casemates received 25,4 .XNUMX-mm longitudinal bulkheads separating the right and left side guns." V.Yu. Gribovsky "Squadron battleship "Borodino"
                        This is where you can end your search. There is no such armor.

                        Didn't you find 1,25" (31,75 mm) horizontal armor for casemates and batteries on Japanese ships? 1" and 0,5" armor for bulkheads, traverses, gun shields weren't found either?
                        It was not at the 1st TOE, nor at the 2TOE, nor at the Black Sea Fleet at the beginning of the REV.

                        Those. Do you agree that pyroxylin charges for 12" high-explosive shells of the Naval Department and 10" shells of the War Department simply did not have time to be developed by 1904? Otherwise, there would be such explosive charges for these projectiles somewhere, at least in minute quantities.
                      14. 0
                        27 February 2024 01: 03
                        nor 42 12" Japanese shells from Kostenko that hit the Eagle

                        42, of course, was not, this number also included 8-inch shells, at least from the Izumo at the beginning of the battle.

                        In addition, a 12" shell from the first four battleships of the Japanese wake simply could not get there at the time it happened

                        Could. After the Suvorov went out of action, the remaining ships of 1BrO went to the right. At this moment I could.

                        However, in the second case, all Japanese ships were to the right of the tower’s line of fire, and hitting its left side was impossible

                        This is complete nonsense. The ships diverged on counter courses; it could have flown anywhere.

                        Explanation of the remaining holes below

                        And look not at the transcript, but at the picture. The hole under the tower has the serial number 12, and below it is signed 十二尹, this translates to 12-dm.

                        What about the armor plates on Japanese ships that were torn off by Russian shells from most of the bolts?

                        Look, no worse than the Eagle tower
                        [media=https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/naval_manual/83261621/71508/71508_900.png]

                        or almost torn and bent 3" plate of its main belt

                        It's just not visible in the photo. laughing

                        from the knowledge of the early 20th century

                        You don't have this knowledge. Read what fragments were required at the beginning of the 20th century for shells used to fire at ships.

                        By the way, by the way, our fragment of a Russian shell a few meters from the point of explosion penetrated 1,25" or at least 1" armor on a Japanese ship

                        Firstly, on Borodinets the battery roof in that place was 1 1/16 inches or 27 mm.
                        Secondly, the 25-mm roof and floor of the Japanese casemates were pierced several times, for example
                        [media=https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vasiliy_eremin/80121439/417806/417806_900.jpg]

                        You've already figured it out

                        There is a longitudinal bulkhead, but your traverses are not there, see attachment

                        simply didn’t have time to develop it

                        We made it, and even in the equipment instructions they are for both 12-dm and 10-dm shells
                      15. 0
                        29 February 2024 00: 12
                        42, of course, was not, this number also included 8-inch shells, at least from the Izumo at the beginning of the battle.

                        Were there nine 12" shells that hit the 6" Eagle turret on Packingham?

                        Could. After the Suvorov went out of action, the remaining ships of 1BrO went to the right. At this moment I could.

                        "...at about 14:32, the Russian flagship “Prince Suvorov” stopped obeying the rudder and began to circulate to the right. The “Emperor Alexander III”, which was following, first followed it, but having realized that the flagship was uncontrollable, it led the squadron further (he led the column Russian ships until 14:50). The turmoil was reinforced by the Borodino, which was also out of action at that time..."

                        No mention of the fact that “Eagle” also went out of order to the right at that moment.

                        Above was a diagram of the relative positions of the squadrons with an assessment of the ships that could fire at the "Eagle" at the moment when its left bow turret received a projectile on its left side and was jammed in a position close to abeam, 10-15 degrees towards the stern. Provide your diagram of the relative positions of the squadrons.

                        This is complete nonsense. The ships diverged on counter courses; it could have flown anywhere.

                        Just provide a diagram showing how, at the moment the Japanese battleships diverged on counter courses, they were to the left of the turret’s line of fire.

                        And look not at the transcript, but at the picture.

                        I agree, in the diagram given in the handwritten report of the Asahi senior officer, Captain 2nd Rank Togo, 12 inches is written next to the hit number 12. It’s just that the point of impact is drawn on the side of the tower, significantly lower.

                        In the diagram attached to the printed version of the report, of course, there is no hit on the side below the tower, because there was none. The location of the hit we are interested in is shaded correctly, in the lower part of the left side of the turret (this was the case, confirmed by the photo). And the fact that in the diagram compiled in hot pursuit in the manuscript is listed as hit 12 in the printed version is most likely hit N, indicated on the freeboard diagram approximately between the 12" and 6" turret, and not directly under the 6" turret. Unfortunately, on this diagram the hit to the armor of the left bow 6" turret and the observed damage to the freeboard caused by these hits are indicated by shading, but not numbered.

                        Look, no worse than the Eagle tower
                        [media=https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/naval_manual/83261621/71508/71508_900.png]

                        These are two completely different types of damage. In the illustration you pointed to, an armor plate was pierced by a shell. Those. You referred to the armor-piercing effect of the Russian shell.

                        But you know very well that according to the results of the war, it was not the armor-piercing, but the high-explosive and fragmentation effect of Russian shells (including the armor pierced by these shells) that was considered completely insufficient.

                        Russian armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing ("high-explosive") shells with an extremely insufficient explosive charge of a weak explosive demonstrated weak high-explosive and fragmentation effects.

                        The fuses of these shells were either of “normal action”, i.e. without significant deceleration, like the bottom shock tube of the 1894 model used with shells equipped with explosive charges of smokeless gunpowder. Or, as a rule, they did not fire on the unarmored side plating, and when penetrating the armor, they did not provide a significant deceleration (there was not a single case when a projectile exploded in meters behind a pierced armor plate thicker than half the caliber of the projectile) Brink fuses, which were equipped with projectiles with a pyroxylin explosive charge.

                        Such shells cannot be considered effective as armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing shells. We recognized them as such based on the results of the Russo-Japanese War - ineffective.

                        On the other hand, equipped with large explosive charges of a powerful high explosive, Japanese shells almost always exploded, producing a huge number of fragments when they exploded, some of which pierced not just the unarmored side plating and light internal bulkheads, but also the armor - they met the highest requirements of that time in their own way. high explosive, fragmentation and even incendiary effects. By the way, these shells would look good even today.

                        Thus, the Russian fleet in 1904-1905. there were no effective armor-piercing or semi-armor-piercing shells, and there were no real high-explosive shells at all.

                        The Japanese fleet also did not have effective armor-piercing/semi-armor-piercing shells (because the Japanese had neither delayed-action fuses for such shells, nor a phlegmatic high explosive capable of withstanding the impact of the shell body on anti-ballistic armor without exploding).

                        But the Japanese fleet had effective high-explosive shells. These shells did not penetrate waist and deck armor, but acted on people, artillery equipment, and unarmored parts of ships so that under Tsushima, the newest Russian battleships under Japanese fire not only completely lost their combat effectiveness and burned, but capsized and exploded without holes in the armor plates their belts, casemates or towers. Armor plates from 3" and higher torn off their numerous bolts by the explosions of these shells were not such a rare occurrence. See illustration below.

                        There is a longitudinal bulkhead, but your traverses are not there, see attachment

                        “On the starboard side in the bow casemate, the guns were removed by fragments that ricocheted on the left side through the door of the longitudinal bulkhead of the casemate. The bulkhead was not broken.”

                        Not my traverses, but Gribovsky’s. And Melnikova:

                        “Standing behind the light side of the Tsesarevich, on ships of the St. Petersburg series they were covered with a third belt of armor 76 mm thick. The casemate formed in this way was covered with a 32 mm roof, and the guns, to increase their survivability, separated by 12,7 mm bulkheads. For this improvement, not daring to increase the displacement, they paid for it by reducing (in comparison with the Tsarevich) the thickness of the armor belt plates: the lower one from 250 to 194 mm, the upper one from 203 to 152 mm."

                        We made it, and even in the equipment instructions they are for both 12-dm and 10-dm shells

                        Does the manual contain information about equipping 12-dm "high-explosive" shells and 10-dm War Department shells? I would like to see these instructions.
  23. +1
    2 February 2024 14: 52
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: DrEng02
    You are in vain trying to argue with the engineer

    In this case, the engineer is in vain trying to argue with me :))).

    In some ways he is right :). It’s stupid to argue with a person who considers the designation “305mm” for a 12-inch gun to be categorically incorrect. wassat
  24. +1
    7 February 2024 13: 08
    "
    Consequently, according to the tacticians of those years, it was armor-piercing shells that should have become the means of inflicting decisive damage at the main battle distances. The role of high-explosive shells was limited to only short-term shelling of enemy ships until they converged with ours within the same 15–20 cables, as well as to perform, although important, but still secondary tasks, such as shelling coastal targets.
    "
    And, in fact, nothing has changed. So it was, so it became. While artillery was the main weapon on the water. No one relied on high-explosive shells. The use and success of landmines in Tsushima was an accident determined by some internal Japanese factors.
    1. 0
      7 February 2024 17: 56
      Quote: MCmaximus
      While artillery was the main weapon on the water. Nobody used high-explosive shells

      Well, how can I say? :)) Based on the results of the nuclear weapons test, the British decided that the main projectile of the fleet was semi-armor-piercing, and they slowed it down so much that it exploded either in the process of overcoming the armor or immediately behind it. That is, in essence, it was not much different from a classic landmine. The British only realized that something had gone wrong based on the results of Jutland
    2. 0
      18 February 2024 01: 15
      determined by some internal Japanese factors

      The Japanese factors overlapped - they greatly improved their accuracy, and the Russians - the presence of high overload and combustible materials.
  25. 0
    8 February 2024 12: 34
    I would like to add “something”.
    And who told everyone that the “two-capsule Brink tube” had a noticeable slowdown, say, 0,05-0,025 seconds? MTK, Morved wrote this somewhere, in seconds? For comparison, the 11DM, with which the army replaced Brink fuses, has a deceleration of 0,005 seconds, and this is almost “instantaneous”. And, oddly enough, it is also “double-capsule”. This has nothing to do with slowing down. By the way, neither the English nor the French fuses of “naval” shells had full deceleration at that time. However, given their “detonators” and filling, they didn’t really need it.
    For example, the British, including Jutland, did not consider it necessary to equip their large-caliber “commons” with liddite. Although they had such shells in calibers from at least 6" and less. Not everyone (by no means only the British) wanted to "experiment" with strong mercury fulminate capsules, which were required to fully rupture a charge from "real" high explosives, which could be in 12" shells. Of course, by the time of Jutland this approach (“commons” with gunpowder) was clearly no good, but by 1904 the lack of full-fledged high-explosive shells for large calibers could still be “understood.”
    The absence of such for 6", 120 mm and less is not even a mistake. This is stupidity, because it completely deprived the medium caliber of battleships, which was then considered the "main", of any effectiveness. Even at 15 kb. 6" could penetrate at best in the case of “our own” 15 cm. Moreover, in the upper belt from 6" there would be no such problems. However, as in the unarmored side.
    Another nuance. After the nuclear war, the "pre-Tsushima" shells were reloaded with TNT and other fuses. They didn’t disdain. TNT did not require a “case” (it does not depend on humidity, like pyroxylin), it is denser than wet pyroxylin. I don’t know how much the “brink” weighed; the 11DM, which was initially used to replace it in the coastal artillery, weighed ... 1,5 kg. For a Russian "pre-Tsushima" 6" projectile, which at best has the same amount of explosives with SUCH a fuse, this is already overkill. It simply does not need such a powerful detonator. Having the same fuse for all calibers from 6" to 12" is very, very economical.
    Do you think that before 1904 Russia did not know how to load picric acid (and as an explosive it is inferior to TNT in safety of handling, but not in strength) in Russia they could not equip shells? They knew how and equipped. True, the landmen and the cat cried. Just 6" and 122 mm (the latter are experimental). If for armor-piercing shells in 1904 wet pyroxylin was perhaps the best choice, then high-explosive shells, not counting on their "armor-piercing" ability, could be equipped with picric acid. And this would have been cheaper than using wet pyroxylin. But first they had to spend money on testing ammunition. And they weren’t even enough to get rid of cast iron by 1904. And even the 2nd TOE - they didn’t have cast iron (75 -mm was, and there was no 75-mm steel landmine in nature yet!), but it was partially replaced with armor-piercing ones (up to 1/3 of the 6" ammunition load).
    Do you want another joke? A cast iron projectile is longer than a steel one! Therefore, it contained even more gunpowder than steel gunpowder - pyroxylin. Not to mention the 12" steel powder shells. It was possible to make the shells longer even with approximately the same weight. Not to mention the fact that for new guns they had to be made heavier. But here they were already “unified.” But that was even more pyroxylin. would be, but it was already not enough for 305 mm and 120 mm (and if it was at least planned for 305 mm, then they didn’t even think about it for 120 mm).
    Yes, they didn’t count on the armor-piercing power of high-explosive steel shells. They were not hardened. In fact, Russian 12" high-explosive shells made a lot of holes in 6" Krupp armor. A 10" shell once penetrated a 7" plate (doesn't seem to explode). This does not make them armor-piercing, or even semi-armor-piercing. But, if there were 6" and 120-mm high-explosive shells, equipped with picric acid and a more sensitive fuse, it would still be minimally acceptable. Such ammunition could still cause some problems for the Japanese.
    1. 0
      18 February 2024 01: 05
      And who told everyone that the “double-capsule Brink tube” had a noticeable slowdown, say, 0,05-0,025 sec

      I have not seen such data. And I understand why: in those days the fuse delay “floated” by several times. Even in the post-Jutland British experiments. But you can rely on data, for example, from Jessen’s firing at boilers. It describes at what distance from the point of initiation the rupture occurred.

      For example, the British, including Jutland, did not consider it necessary to equip their large-caliber “commons” with liddite

      Because they didn't need the 2nd HE. The common and HE had very similar projectile geometry.

      Yes, they didn’t count on the armor-piercing power of high-explosive steel shells

      You are mistaken, the MTK magazine on artillery mentions in black and white the requirement for a high-explosive projectile to penetrate thin armor.

      not even semi-armor-piercing

      Why so?

      Such ammunition could still cause some problems for the Japanese.

      Our 6-inch shells caused big problems for the Japanese, even much more than similar Japanese shells. The question is where it hits.
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. 0
    17 February 2024 15: 45
    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
    Are you so sure that American ships would now easily fight off the latest BEC? I'm not sure about that.

    Let's not talk about URO destroyers - the beauty and pride of the US Navy. Let's take some patrol trifle:



    Two 25 mm anti-boat stabilized Mark 38 guns with thermal imagers and several single and coaxial 12,7 mm machine guns. How many stabilized anti-boat guns were there on the Caesar Kunikov?