The Dresden-Moscow axis, like the flames of the firestorm of 1945, scorched officials in Russia and Germany

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The Dresden-Moscow axis, like the flames of the firestorm of 1945, scorched officials in Russia and Germany

The Vedomosti Internet portal published the following message on January 16 under the “Politics” heading:

“The destruction of a memorial inscription in Dresden in memory of the city residents who died due to the bombing of the American and British Air Forces is an act of “historical vandalism.”

This was stated by the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry Maria Zakharova.



“Another act of historical vandalism is happening right now in Dresden, Germany - during an uprising of peasants and farmers who, judging by the slogans, are fed up with the economic policies of the Olaf Scholz cabinet,”

— Zakharova wrote in her Telegram channel.

According to a Foreign Ministry spokesman, on February 13 and 14, 1945, American and British forces deliberately bombed a peaceful German city in order to force the Soviet authorities to spend money on its reconstruction. Zakharova called those decisions of the allies “completely disproportionate, appalling and bordering on a war crime" She added that now "a speedy recovery should be demanded historical inscriptions».

Short messages on the same topic were also aired on the central channels of Russian television.

As a person “made in the USSR” and by the will of fate thrown into the “lair of the beast”, that is, in Germany, overwhelmed with righteous anger, I decided to find out on the spot what these bastard Germans had done.

I don’t know how informed the post-Soviet generation of Russia is about what happened in Dresden on February 13-14, 1945, so first I will make a brief excursion into history. Absolutely everything that I publish below is information only from German sources.

Beginning in July 1940, Germany first carried out aviation, and then missile attacks on British territory. Subsequently, having won the air battle for the skies over their country, the Royal Air Force, together with the US Air Force, began regular massive strikes against various targets on the territory of Nazi Germany. These targets included military, industrial, and civilian targets. The bombing of purely civilian targets was carried out not simply as retaliation, but as a radical method of demotivating the population, as well as Wehrmacht soldiers.


Avro Lancaster strikes

The orders for the strikes were given personally by Prime Minister Winston Churchill through the head of RAF Bomber Command, Arthur Harris, who was at the time the most important RAF officer after RAF Chief of Staff Charles Portal. Harris always carried out the wishes of his prime minister.


Arthur Harris (1892–1984)

British Prime Minister Winston Churchill wrote in March 1945:

“It now seems to me that the moment has come when it is necessary to consider the question whether German cities should be bombed solely to increase terror, even if other targets would be preferable for attacks. The destruction of Dresden raises serious questions about the conduct of the Allied bombing campaign."

After Churchill's letter, the RAF's Mosquitoes and Lancasters continued to attack civilian targets almost every day. Potsdam became the last German city to be set on fire on April 14, 1945.

Air Marshal Arthur Harris trained his subordinates admirably, but above all he himself demonstrated murderous consistency and iron determination, as well as absolute ruthlessness towards both his subordinates and his victims. This is what made the air war against German cities so deadly.

About two-thirds of the 500-600 German bombing deaths were due to attacks by the Royal Air Force, the rest as a result of attacks by the US Army Air Forces, which since the fall of 000 had been significantly stronger in numbers and in the tactical and technical capabilities of bombers. It is worth noting that Harris's uncompromising method of command cost the lives of about 1943 Bomber Force troops - almost one in two were killed in action. The Luftwaffe was unable to eliminate the threat in the sky, but fought back until the last days of the war.

Arthur Travers Harris (1892–1984) was not the inventor of urban air warfare, but he was the one whose attacks caused the greatest number of casualties. Harris perfected bombing in a way that had previously been unimaginable: his staff used scientific criteria to select those centers in Germany as targets that could most easily be set on fire from the air. Its pilots learned to accurately drop their deadly payload into the densely built-up central areas of medieval cities.

In other words, Harris did exactly what his boss, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, asked him to do. Lübeck, Rostock and Cologne were the first cities to be destroyed by British bombing from March to May 1942. In Hamburg, serial bombings caused a firestorm of apocalyptic proportions that killed at least 34 people. In the next year and a half, almost all German cities also became targets of bomb attacks.

On the night of February 13–14, 1945, Dresden, with a population of about 630 people, suffered one of the most destructive air raids of the Second World War. 000 British bombers dropped huge numbers of high explosive bombs in two waves of attacks. The incendiary bombs subsequently dropped on houses with destroyed roofs and broken windows could have a terrible impact. The so-called "firestorm" destroyed about 773 homes in the city center. The British night attack was followed by a daytime bombing of the city by 80 American bombers.


Dresden after the bombing

At one time, civilian casualties as a result of this raid were estimated at 100-200 thousand. In 000, a specially created commission announced the final figure of 2010 dead. The dead, bodies burned beyond recognition, lay in the streets among the rubble for several days before the piles of corpses could be burned to prevent epidemics. A total of 25 bodies were cremated at the Old Market Square (Altmarkt). By the way, the most active part in these sanitary measures was taken by great specialists in cremation - the SS troops.


Burning the bodies of the dead

Until August 1944, Dresden was the only major German city to largely escape Allied bombing, and by early 1945 it was still largely undamaged, although it constituted an important transport hub between Prague, Berlin, Leipzig, Nuremberg and Warsaw. In addition to small arms companies, there were also larger industrial enterprises such as Zeiß-Ikon AG, Paul Märksch AG and the Dresden-Klotzsch aircraft factory. However, given the shortage of raw materials and the growing disorganization of military supply routes in early 1945, the British command considered these sites to be a lower priority as bombing targets. The destruction of Dresden was the culmination of the Allies' targeted bombing of the German civilian population to undermine morale. At the same time, Nazi propaganda used this tragedy to appeal to the will of the Germans to continue the fight.


Ruins of Dresden

Perhaps this is where we will end our short excursion into history.

So what happened a week ago in Dresden, the former city of the German Democratic Republic?

To put it briefly and simply, the usual bureaucratic carelessness, coupled, oddly enough, with German diligence and a disregard for the residents of the city, the country and the so-called public. Plus, the now fashionable policy of streamlined phrases and actions. All. There was no trace of “an act of historical vandalism,” as the respected Maria Vladimirovna defined it, and here’s why:

The old part of the city of Dresden, really old, since the first mention of it was back in 1370, was constantly updated and reconstructed. Both in socialist and capitalist times. The last reconstruction of the Old Market Square (Altmarkt) was carried out in the early 2000s. At the same time, an underground garage was built there, the entrance (descent) to which was framed by a U-shaped stone bench, on the back of which was the inscription:

“This is a place of instruction, remembrance and remembrance. The bodies of thousands of victims of air raids on February 13 and 14, 1945 were burned here. At that time, the horror of war, which had spread from Germany throughout the world, returned to our city.”


At the same time, in July 2005, a commemorative inscription was made on the paving stones:

“After the air strikes on Dresden on February 13-14, 1945, the bodies of 6865 people were burned at this site.”


And this, by the way, caused a very heated, often negative discussion: “Why on earth? They walk there, litter, remove snow, vehicles drive by, etc.”

But the common people did not calm down. While tired people were constantly sitting on the bench with the inscription during the day and, naturally, obscured this very inscription with their backs, at night the scumbag youths disfigured the monument with their scribbles (graffiti).

It all ended with the city council deciding in 2019 to reconstruct the monument. That is, the inscription should be removed and a memorial stele installed in its place.

Said is half done, a memorial stele with a text dedicated to the tragic events of February 1945 was installed in 2020. The inscription was not removed then, maybe Covid-19 got in the way... Then, during regular work on the square, the stele was accidentally damaged and, in order not to embarrass itself, it was dismantled and put out of sight.

And then a week ago, smart German workers from a company that several years ago received an order to remove the inscription got around to it. And in fact, in front of the residents and guests of the city, men in work overalls removed the inscription.

The cost of processing a bench made of natural stone amounted to about 2500 euros net. The service was part of a construction contract and was carried out by Arge Altmarktumbau.

But they didn’t put up a replacement stele.

The city leadership, after what could be said to be an international scandal, began frantically making excuses, making all sorts of statements, and already today, January 19, they installed the stele.


Caption:

“From the end of February to the beginning of March 1945, the bodies of 6865 people were burned at this site. Their ashes were buried in a mass grave in Heidefriedhof. They were victims of the bombing of Dresden from February 13 to 15, 1945, which killed 25 thousand people.

In 2005, for the 60th anniversary of the memory, the artist Einhart Grotegut installed a metal trace of memory on the sidewalk of the square. The Altmarkt is also marked "as a repository of memories" that mark the site as part of the history of remembrance of the Second World War.

Since 1945, February 13 has been one of the most important days of remembrance in the state capital of Dresden. Since then, the day of remembrance has been repeatedly politically exploited and reinterpreted. February 13 remembers the victims of the bombings of World War II, started by Germany, and the millions who died under National Socialist tyranny.

Dresden is aware of its historical responsibility for these crimes against humanity. This mourning event calls for the maintenance and strengthening of peace in Europe and throughout the world.”


All.
A curtain.
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  1. +1
    22 January 2024 05: 00
    They were victims of the bombing of Dresden from February 13 to 15, 1945, which killed 25 thousand people.

    not the worst option yet, perhaps in ten years they will replace the inscription again and blame Stalin and K.A for everything... history is written by overseas victors...
    1. +4
      22 January 2024 08: 05
      Quote: Vladimir80
      History is written by overseas winners...

      Cough cough. This is how the American leftists dispersed this whole topic with Dresden when they fought against the anti-people Nixon regime. The Soviet political commissars just accepted the proposal.
      1. 0
        23 January 2024 15: 36
        Quote: Negro
        This is how the American leftists dispersed this whole topic with Dresden when they fought against the anti-people Nixon regime.

        Despite the fact that it was not the Yankees who worked purposefully around the city, but the Limes. But Washington is still to blame for everything. wink
        It was the guys of “butcher” Harris who fanned out from the Dresden stadium to cover residential areas with the optimally selected number and assortment of bombs - all according to science.
        The Yankees bombed during the day and chose warehouses and a marshalling yard as their aiming points. And then came the famous American precision - 2% of bombs within the fence of the enterprise. smile
        1. 0
          24 January 2024 11: 13
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Despite the fact that it was not the Yankees who worked purposefully around the city, but the Limes. But Washington is still to blame for everything

          Well, Comrade Vannegut did not write about the Germans; he didn’t care about the Germans, like any humanist. He fought the anti-people South Vietnamese junta on the side, of course, of the Vietnamese working people. But it wasn’t the British who bombed the Vietnamese working people
  2. +2
    22 January 2024 05: 11
    In no way do I support the bombing of civilians, but before Dresden, German aircraft destroyed the Spanish city of Guernica, and after the start of WWII, the English city of Coventry. There were also bombings of Warsaw and Moscow, and towards the end of the war there were FAA strikes on London. And, as always, ordinary residents suffered
    1. +14
      22 January 2024 07: 49
      On August 23, 1942, Stalingrad was subjected to the first massive aerial bombardment, which literally crushed it to the ground. The Luftwaffe's Fourth Air Fleet attacked the city with all its might and destroyed more than half of the housing stock in half a day. After heavy high-explosive bombs demolished the frames of houses to the ground, incendiary ammunition was used, causing numerous fires. A huge fire whirlwind devastated the central regions and spread to the outskirts. Stalingrad, which had flourished before the war, began to look like a plowed field with the skeletons of buildings and chimneys. More than 40 thousand people died... It seemed that the city, drowned in fire and smoke, could no longer resist. But the bombing of August 23 was only the beginning of the heroic defense of Stalingrad by Soviet troops, which lasted more than six months. Read about what preceded the air raid and why the city was not given to the Germans in the RIA Novosti article.

      You forgot to mention this! We remember both Dresden and Coventry. But we must not forget Stalingrad!
      1. man
        +9
        22 January 2024 09: 21
        You forgot to mention this! We remember both Dresden and Coventry. But we must not forget Stalingrad!
        Thank you very much for reminding me! hi 40 thousand dead, our Soviet Stalingrad residents... Let the rest go through the forest with their Dresden, Coventry and Guernica! For some reason I don’t hear their laments for the dead Stalingraders am
      2. +3
        22 January 2024 14: 35
        Dear Sergey!
        When I was preparing an article and started writing about the history of the bombing of German cities, the first thought I had was about our Stalingrad. Well, and then, it started in my head: “Kyiv was bombed, they announced to us that the war had begun...”. And my mother, now deceased, miraculously survived the siege of Leningrad.
        But the topic of the article was different. hi
        1. +1
          22 January 2024 15: 27
          The article really did not concern Stalingrad. I was responding to a person who gave examples of cities that were also bombed. but I forgot about one of the most cruel ones. And I gave the article a plus. hi
          1. +1
            22 January 2024 15: 33
            By the way, why Vladivostok?
            I myself am a Sakhalin resident. I visited Vladik when I was in seventh grade, on an excursion, in 1967.
            1. +2
              22 January 2024 15: 35
              It's simple. I live in Vladivostok. We are both Far Easterners drinks
              1. +1
                22 January 2024 15: 40
                Very nice! Now there are about 12000 km between us. drinks
                1. 0
                  22 January 2024 15: 42
                  Somewhere in Western Europe?
                  1. +1
                    22 January 2024 15: 43
                    Frankfurt am Main. Since June 26, 1995
                    1. +1
                      22 January 2024 15: 45
                      I will be waiting for new articles from you.
                      1. +3
                        22 January 2024 15: 47
                        Thank you. I'll definitely write again.
                        Health and good luck, fellow countryman!
    2. +3
      22 January 2024 08: 11
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      In no way do I support the bombing of civilians, but before Dresden, German aircraft destroyed the Spanish city of Guernica, and after the start of WWII, the English city of Coventry. There were also bombings of Warsaw and Moscow, and towards the end of the war there were FAA strikes on London. And, as always, ordinary residents suffered

      In war as in war. How many residents of Moscow and Leningrad died from bombing? And how many residents of Donetsk and Belgorod? For example, about 10 thousand died in Gaza in 3 months and Israel is not tormented by remorse
      1. +1
        22 January 2024 18: 25
        It turned out that hunger + cold are the most effective killers. In Leningrad, more people died from this than from all the bombings of Germany and England together, and much more than in Hiroshima and Nagazaki. Leningrad is the city with the largest number of victims in WWII. Swishe 620
      2. -4
        22 January 2024 19: 15
        Judging by what they say on Israeli TV and opinion polls, people in Israel are tormented by the fact that so few died
    3. +3
      22 January 2024 08: 31
      "German aviation crushed the Spanish city of Guernica"
      Well, not a city, but a village with 3.7 thousand people. and there were fewer victims, either 100 or 150; historians are still arguing. although, of course, the fact is obvious. Dresden civilians responded for the murdered Basques
  3. +5
    22 January 2024 05: 16
    The city leadership, after what could be said to be an international scandal, began frantically making excuses, making all sorts of statements, and already today, January 19, they installed the stele.

    It immediately reminded me of the scandal in the Canadian parliament.
    At first they gave a storm of applause, turning into a standing ovation, for the Waffen-SS veteran, and then, when a wave of indignation began, they said that they did not know who he was.
    Someone there was forced to take the blame and quit.

    It is clear that the elimination of the stele in Dresden is the same thing as the hushing up in Japan today about who dropped the atomic bombs on them. There is a reformatting of both consciousness and historical memory, both in Japan and in Germany. In the European Union, at the official level, they are already saying that nuclear weapons were used against civilians by the Soviet Union; in a couple of generations, the Japanese will begin to claim that Hiroshima and Nagakaki were bombed on Stalin’s orders.
    1. -1
      22 January 2024 09: 20
      Here, on Military Review, there was news about a survey conducted in Japan. Thus, the majority of young Japanese are sure that the USSR carried out nuclear strikes. It was several years ago. The older generations still remember the truth, but the youth no longer remember.
      1. +6
        22 January 2024 23: 47
        Thus, the majority of young Japanese are sure that the USSR carried out nuclear strikes.

        How long can this nonsense be replicated?
    2. +2
      22 January 2024 13: 49
      So there is a new film by Oppenheimer, it seems
  4. +2
    22 January 2024 06: 12
    The city leadership after what could be said to be an international scandal
    Those. after an international scandal, and not as a result of protests by citizens.
    1. +1
      22 January 2024 11: 46
      There were no mass “protests” in the form of rallies or demonstrations precisely on this occasion. The German press covered this topic for a week, with several representatives of various parties publishing statements on this matter. And even then, the emphasis was not on the fact of eliminating the inscription, but on the lack of communication between the city authorities and residents. It all ended with an official statement from the mayor's office. And regarding the “international scandal”, I was a little sarcastic, meaning the reaction of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and information sources. And not only purebred Germans live in Dresden.
  5. +2
    22 January 2024 07: 14
    Quote: Vladimir80
    and they will blame Stalin and K.A for everything....
    At one time there were already attempts to do this. Articles began to appear in the German media in which, allegedly on the basis of archival documents, it was “established” that Churchill coordinated the bombing of Dresden with Stalin and the latter gave the go-ahead. Naturally, there was no confirmation, much less archival documents. But recently a CIA document surfaced in which the Americans asked the archives to confirm the participation of I.V. Stalin in making the decision to bomb Dresden. To which we received the answer that such information is not in the archive.
    1. -2
      22 January 2024 08: 15
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Churchill coordinated with Stalin and the latter gave the go-ahead for this.

      Tactical decisions are not at the level of Stalin and Churchill. This is the level of General Staff, Vasilievsky/Antonov and Brook. Medinsky says that they ordered from Leipzig, not Dresden. Medinsky, you understand, won’t lie, he’s a former minister of the Russian government, after all.
      However, Leipzig was also carried out, and it had not yet occurred to me to protest against the unnecessary bombing of German cities by the USSR in 45.
      1. +1
        22 January 2024 13: 22
        This is the level of General Staff, Vasilievsky/Antonov and Brook. Medinsky says that they ordered it from Leipzig, not Dresden.

        We ordered from Berlin and Leipzig. Dresden was a parallel transport hub, without it the bombing of Berlin and Leipzig would not have made much sense.
        During the Yalta Conference on February 4, Deputy Chief of the Soviet General Staff, General Alexei Antonov, raised the question of the difficulty of reinforcing German troops from the Western Front by paralyzing the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig with air bombing. In response, Portal, located in Yalta, asked Bottomley to send him a list of targets to discuss with the Soviets. Bottomley's list included oil refineries, tank and aircraft factories, as well as the cities of Berlin and Dresden. [36] [37] However, according to Richard Overy, the recorded conversation with Soviet Chief of Staff Alexei Antonov only mentions the bombing of Berlin and Leipzig. [38] The bombing of Dresden was a Western plan, but the Soviets were informed of the operation in advance. [38]
        1. 0
          22 January 2024 14: 09
          Quote from solar
          Ordered from Berlin and Leipzig

          This is a rather strange discussion. The British were not members of the Comintern, at least not all of them. They themselves were responsible for everything they did. Who asked them for what does not matter. I have many questions for comrade. Stalin, but Shpak did not take crossed out Dresden was definitely not for him.

          On the other hand, the very idea that, for better or worse, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, with the Soviet coat of arms on the facade, stands up for the Germans during the Second World War, is so enchantingly arrogant that it is difficult to add anything here.
          1. +3
            22 January 2024 14: 32
            They themselves were responsible for everything they did.

            What responsibility? I can't understand you. No one bears any responsibility; at that time it was a legal method of warfare.
            Not to mention the fact that Dresden is inflated in the media for a number of reasons, the number of victims during the bombing was far from the highest during the war. Yes, there were many casualties, but there were many more during such bombings. Moreover, the purpose of the bombing of Dresden was precisely the transport hub; there was no goal in itself to bomb the city blocks. A relatively small part of the city was affected, although it was densely built up. The purpose of the attack on Dresden was to paralyze transport links by creating chaos in rail transport in order to prevent the movement of troops to the Eastern Front, helping our troops. What should the allies be responsible for?
            1. -1
              22 January 2024 15: 42
              Quote from solar
              What should the allies be responsible for?

              For stupid decisions.
              Quote from solar
              Not to mention the fact that Dresden is inflated in the media for a number of reasons

              So that’s why they’re talking about it because it was included in the bad lite. This bombing in itself is responsible for the percentage of German civilian casualties.
              1. +1
                22 January 2024 16: 05
                For stupid decisions.

                except in front of our own people. But any war has a large number of erroneous decisions on all sides.
                1. +1
                  22 January 2024 22: 48
                  Quote from solar
                  except in front of our own people.

                  I consider strategic bombing, especially the British one, to be an extremely poor decision in many respects. So talking about the responsibility of both the politician and the military is quite appropriate.
  6. +7
    22 January 2024 07: 30
    The Boches got what they sowed in England, they also bombed without worrying about where the peaceful object was, where the military object was, and how did these pigs bomb the Soviet Union and now we have to raise a howl about Dresden? How long have the Boches become our friends? Forget the GDR, but there are Leopards in Ukraine
    1. +7
      22 January 2024 08: 14
      Quote from Mazunga
      The Boches got what they sowed in England, they also bombed without worrying about where the peaceful object was, where the military object was, and how did these pigs bomb the Soviet Union and now we have to raise a howl about Dresden? How long have the Boches become our friends? Forget the GDR, but there are Leopards in Ukraine

      So our media raises a howl with or without reason. I can’t watch Skabeeva anymore, I’m starting to shake
    2. -5
      22 January 2024 19: 04
      Come on, they bombed them. There is nothing to remember except Coventry. It was WE (the Soviet Union) who had the right to destroy Germany completely for what they did on our territory! But there are no Yankees with razors! It was they who installed Hitler, it was they who incited him against the USSR, it was they who concluded pacts and agreements with him long before Molotov, it was they who continued to supply him with oil and other things. So the shaved people go to hell with their pretenses, along with their defenders! We had the right to erase both Dresden and Leipzig for Stalingrad and Leningrad, but not the overseas riffraff.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  7. +1
    22 January 2024 08: 03
    Fachman Thank you for the work, done very quickly. It was immediately clear to me that something was wrong here. I am a meticulous boy sometimes, I immediately had a question when one person erased a multi-meter inscription with a sanding machine in broad daylight - why? Now we have a closed one topic, thousands of rallies against the idea of ​​an Alternative for Germany - the expulsion of migrants (if I understand the English media correctly). We only talk about farmers and how bad it is in Germany and everyone forgets that
    Germany has a safety margin of years in terms of finances. Scholz is not only pouring crazy amounts of money into Ukraine. Quite decent amounts go to Africa, India and China and a little to Latin America. hi good
  8. -1
    22 January 2024 08: 30
    Khe khe.
    Arthur Travers Harris (1892–1984) was not the inventor of air warfare against cities, but he was the one whose attacks caused the greatest number of casualties

    This statement is offensive to Curtis LeMay.
    Harris has always implemented his Prime Minister's wishes

    Here the author, on the contrary, downplays the merits of Harris personally. He was the main enthusiast of bombing the civilian sector in the world; even the Americans did not openly use cannibalistic arguments. His activities caused a lot of criticism, both among the military (all these slaughterhouses consumed incredible resources) and among politicians (from “God didn’t tell us to do this” to “why are we killing our allies in a future war?” After the war, the critics clearly had the upper hand (with arguments of both types), and they tried to carefully push this field marshal of victory away from the stage.

    So to portray him as “we were just performing a performance!” (tried to write with a German accent) not worth it. On the other hand, Churchill unconditionally supported him, and the final decision was his. So it is also impossible to relieve Churchill of responsibility.
    1. 0
      22 January 2024 13: 28
      He was the main enthusiast of bombing the civilian sector in the world

      Until 1949, bombing cities to force the enemy to capitulate was the official method of warfare, prescribed in the Hague Convention on the Rules of War. There were attempts to ban it, but it was officially banned only in 1949.
      1. -1
        22 January 2024 14: 02
        Quote from solar
        Until 1949, bombing cities to force the enemy to capitulate was the official method of warfare,

        The issues here are not about legal aspects.
        1. +2
          22 January 2024 14: 20
          What kind of responsibility are you writing about then?
          From a moral point of view, even before the war there were attempts to prohibit the deliberate bombing of enemy civilians as a method of warfare. But no binding convention was adopted on this matter. Everyone understood that it was much more important how many of our own died than the enemy’s. War as the killing of man by man is in principle immoral. Yes, after the war they adopted a convention prohibiting this method of warfare. But in return they adopted atomic weapons. :((
          1. -3
            22 January 2024 15: 37
            Quote from solar
            What kind of responsibility are you writing about then?

            )))
            About responsibility before God - they’ll figure it out without me. And about political responsibility. But the winners are not judged, this is understandable.
            1. +2
              22 January 2024 16: 10
              And about political responsibility.

              And what kind of responsibility is this? And what does this have to do with Dresden?
              Dresden is the city of the enemy; the enemy is fought with all legal methods stipulated by the conventions. What is the policy there?
              1. -2
                22 January 2024 18: 34
                Quote from solar
                And what kind of responsibility is this? And what does this have to do with Dresden?
                Dresden is the city of the enemy; the enemy is fought with all legal methods stipulated by the conventions. What is the policy there?

                On Your logic - Leningrad was destroyed by the Wehrmacht normal military methods.
                So yes?
              2. 0
                22 January 2024 19: 22
                It's not so much politics as it is economics. There was quite a lot of industry in Germany, but the supply was disrupted. This industry then began to work for Germany and Uncle Sam. Well, the population was then recruited from other countries to work, and that’s how the word guest worker appeared
    2. 0
      23 January 2024 15: 40
      Quote: Negro
      This statement is offensive to Curtis LeMay.

      I see a dangerous lack of Eurocentrism... smile
      1. 0
        24 January 2024 13: 43
        You are partly right, Lemay’s frags in those years were not considered people. But they have since been promoted.
  9. -2
    22 January 2024 10: 15
    clear German workers from a company that several years ago received an order to remove the inscription, got their hands on it

    dazzling passage hi
    neither here
    usual bureaucratic carelessness
    ,
    nor
    German efficiency

    don't pass.
    If it’s carelessness, then why did they only remember now? Forgotten and forgotten.
    If diligence, then why only after a few years? Who stopped your hands from reaching?
    The conclusion is that the national character is not applicable to this story.
    Because they crushed him. The performance is German. Leadership style - no.
    As for the hastily installed stele, it looks more like an information pole. If it weren't for the flowers, I would never have thought that this was something memorial.
    The bench is an order of magnitude more correct in this sense, for all its utilitarianism.
  10. +1
    22 January 2024 10: 49
    Quote: tralflot1832
    We only talk about farmers and how bad it is in Germany


    But do we really have an ideology to “filter” what is written – “like we do”? - NO!
    why I write “as if with us” - because it is not clear who determines the direction of our information agenda, and these directions - tactically and strategically...
    if it had been, then “Peskov’s mustache” would not have hugged the participants of the “naked party” - after everyone condemned it... but it turns out that this is sociability!
  11. 0
    22 January 2024 10: 51
    The author writes interestingly - first about the fact that Zakharova called what happened “an act of historical vandalism,” then she subtly hints that this is just a misunderstanding, like the officials accidentally made a mistake, and in the end she admits that they corrected it only after an international scandal.
    He tried to denigrate the words of M. Zakharova, and then he himself confirmed that she was right.
    The American writer, K. Vonnegut, who himself was an eyewitness to what happened, described everything very well in the novel “Slaughterhouse-Five or the Children’s Crusade.”
    And there is also a moment when he describes the difference in the attitude of the fascists towards Soviet and Western prisoners of war.
    Since then, nothing has changed.
    And it’s very difficult to call Vonnegut a “Putin propagandist.”
    Although nowadays everything is possible...
    1. 0
      22 January 2024 12: 04
      Dear Sergey, thank you for your comment.
      The author absolutely did not try to “denigrate the words of M. Zakharova.” Based only on German printed publications, I informed my colleagues on the site about where the “legs grow” in this story and what actually happened. And then everyone can evaluate what has happened for themselves.
    2. +1
      22 January 2024 15: 17
      American writer, K. Vonnegut, who himself was an eyewitness to what happened

      Not surprisingly, this is his most vivid memory of the war; he took part directly in the hostilities for three days, then was captured.
      In addition, he is German by nationality.
      If you think that he "was an eyewitness himself" then it is doubtful that he was under the bombing. They bombed the very center of the city, and the prisoners were kept in the former slaughterhouse No. 5, which was probably not in the historical center.
      1. 0
        22 January 2024 22: 00
        I read it a long time ago, but, as far as I remember, it was written there that the prisoners were placed in a room for slaughtering cattle, it was on the lower levels and that is why the prisoners remained alive. That's why Slaughterhouse Five. On the floor above there were German schoolgirls, they were practically baked, as if in an oven from the high temperature.
  12. 0
    22 January 2024 11: 41
    In this regard, I would like to mention that it was at Dresden that our troops were stopped. If it were so unimportant, no one would strengthen it. And in general, every city was turned into a real fortress, at least from the side of the offensive of our troops. And if I’m not mistaken, it was near Dresden that one of the long-lasting WWII aviation battles took place. This fact also needs to be recognized. This is also a reproach to our modern soldiers who claim that it is impossible to take fortified positions. And what exactly did our grandfathers and great-grandfathers do during the Second World War? They drank tea with cigarettes and smoked.
  13. +1
    22 January 2024 12: 11
    By and large, the article is about the reaction of our Foreign Ministry to the completely normal actions of the Germans regarding their historical heritage. In fact, there was no vandalism, but an intentional or unprofessional stuffing, at the level of the yellow press, on the part of the Ministry of Health.
  14. 0
    22 January 2024 12: 41
    If I understand correctly, our Foreign Ministry didn’t get a sensation?
  15. +3
    22 January 2024 13: 10
    during the uprising of peasants and farmers who, judging by the slogans, are fed up with the economic policies of the Olaf Scholz cabinet.”

    It’s as if the author was transported from 1973, that’s the terminology.
    Absolutely everything that I publish below is information only from German sources.

    It's strange to read this. Apparently, this is why the author has such a huge number of distortions in the article. It would be worth looking at other sources.
    The destruction of Dresden was the culmination of the Allies' targeted bombing of the German civilian population to undermine morale.

    The bombing of Dresden had no direct connection with what the author writes about.
    During the Yalta Conference on February 4, Deputy Chief of the Soviet General Staff, General Alexei Antonov, raised the question of the difficulty of reinforcing German troops from the Western Front by paralyzing the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig with air bombing. In response, Portal, located in Yalta, asked Bottomley to send him a list of targets to discuss with the Soviets. Bottomley's list included oil refineries, tank and aircraft factories, as well as the cities of Berlin and Dresden. [36] [37] However, according to Richard Overy, the recorded conversation with Soviet Chief of Staff Alexei Antonov only mentions the bombing of Berlin and Leipzig. [38] The bombing of Dresden was a Western plan, but the Soviets were informed of the operation in advance. [38]

    At that time, the imminent end of the war was not as obvious as it seems now. There was information that the Germans in Southern Germany had prepared a strong fortified area. The Allies feared that the Soviet offensive might run out of steam and the war would drag on. Moreover, the Germans were transferring troops from the Western Front to the Eastern Front. The Soviet command also knew about this, so they turned to the allies with a request to paralyze this message, naming first of all the transport hubs Berlin and Leipzig. But the British themselves came to the conclusion that this would not have an effect, since Dresden was a parallel, duplicating transport hub, so they also included it in the list and notified the Soviet side about it.
    There were several raids on the Dresden railway junction (which allowed it to be paralyzed for a long time and provided significant support to the Soviet army in the final stage of the war).
    Despite the fact that there were several such attacks in February-March 1945 (there were also before that), only one of them was widely and medialy promoted, in which part of the dropped bombs, due to an error, hit the central part of the city adjacent to the transport hub. The guidance accuracy during such bombings was so-so.

    Guidance aircraft marked the Ostragehege stadium as their starting point. All bombers passed through this point, fanning out along predetermined trajectories and dropping bombs after a certain time.



    At one time, civilian casualties as a result of this raid were estimated at 100-200 thousand.


    It seems that the author used specific German sources.

    In February 1945, Goebbels' Ministry of Public Education and Propaganda disseminated information that the death toll ranged from 100 to 200 thousand people, with closer to 200 thousand[25].


    In fact, already in 1945 it was officially known that the number of victims was about 20-25 thousand.

    On March 22, 1945, the municipal authorities of the city of Dresden issued an official report, Tagesbefehl no. 47 (also known as TV-47), according to which the number of fatalities recorded by this date was 20, and the total number of deaths during the bombing was expected to be about 204 thousand people[25][21][26][27] .

    This figure was later officially confirmed in 2010.

    For comparison, during the first German air raid on Stalingrad, about 40 thousand civilians died.:((But they practically didn’t write about this during the USSR and they don’t write about it now. I don’t know if in Volgograd at least now there is a memorial stele in memory of this particular tragedy. If there are Volgograd residents, tell me.
    1. 0
      22 January 2024 17: 53
      Quote from solar
      The bombing of Dresden had no direct connection with what the author writes about.



      Direct or indirect “connection” is all a play on words with words.
      The British called this type of destruction of cities "Gambugrisierung" - from the words
      "Hamburg" and "turning to dust".
      In the American state of Utah, experiments were conducted to create the optimal incendiary mixture for the destruction of cities. The firebomb for German cities was different from the firebomb for Japanese cities.

      Military installations had a different ratio of flammable items than a standard city apartment.
      1. +1
        22 January 2024 18: 40
        Direct or indirect “connection” is all a play on words with words.

        This is not a play on words. The purpose of the bombing of Dresden specifically differs from the purpose of the bombing of other German cities. This was a strike against a transport hub with the aim of creating chaos in rail transport. In Dresden, a relatively small area in the city center adjacent to the train station was affected.
        In the American state of Utah, experiments were conducted to create the optimal incendiary mixture for the destruction of cities.

        At the time of the war, bombing cities was a legal method of warfare under the Hague Convention. They were banned after the war.
        1. 0
          22 January 2024 19: 00
          The purpose of the bombing of Dresden specifically differs from the purpose of the bombing of other German cities.


          The next day there was a bombing of Chemnitz. Failed to ignite. Fact.


          The parties involved in that war learned from each other how to effectively bomb cities: hit an infrastructure facility or set it on fire, first setting fire to the old city located nearby.
          The bombing of cities in WWII was a whole science, which was worked on not only by the military in academies, but also by mathematicians and physicists in civilian universities.

          I did not dispute the “legality” of the bombing of cities in WWII.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +1
            22 January 2024 19: 07
            6 February 1945 city
            Beginning at 10:50, 474 American B-17 bombers dropped on the city of Chemnitz bmore than 3000 high-explosive and about 600 fragmentation bombs with a total weight of 1132 tons[9]. The damage was significant. The main target, the Chemnitz-Hilbersdorf railway station, was not hit.

            14/15 February 1945
            Anglo-American “double whammy”. Chemnitz was initially attacked on 14 February at noon (11:45 – 13:55) by the USAAF using 294 (306) B-17 bombers and 718 (747) tons of bomb load, accompanied by a large number of P-51 fighters.[9]

            Two subsequent night raids from 20:35 to 22:00 and from 23:55 to 1:20 a.m. were carried out by British and Canadian bombers, who carried out the first attack on Dresden the day before. The inferno, including the firestorm planned for Chemnitz, failed; it was not the city center that suffered due to the bad weather, but the suburbs in the south of the city. Of the 717 aircraft, 13 were lost. 789 tons of high explosive bombs and 1320 tons of incendiary bombs were dropped.[10] The Allied Intelligence Agency reported: Chemnitz has been attacked, but not yet destroyed.
  16. +2
    22 January 2024 13: 14
    Author!

    1. The bombing of Dresden was necessary to facilitate the Red Army's advance on Berlin. Dresden, the most important transport hub, was located on the flank of our troops. If you superimpose the area of ​​bridges and railway stations on the density of bombing, you will see that the main attack was on communications; the Allies set themselves the task of making the transfer of troops through Dresden impossible even on foot. And they solved it.
    2. Take an interest in how many problems the Red Army has accumulated on the left flank, even taking into account the neutralization of Dresden, and imagine what would have happened if maneuver along the roads passing through the city had been possible.
    3. In light of this, tears for the population of Dresden made sense only as an ideological blow to the British, but not seriously - this bombing was a legal act of war, absolutely fair and useful for the Red Army.
    4. The Lancaster in the photo is dropping chaff, not bombs.

    In general, we need to learn from people like Arthur Harris or Curtis LeMay, and not write denigrating articles.
    All this, of course, does not negate the fact that the level of work of our Foreign Ministry has hit rock bottom, but this has been the case for many years.
    1. 0
      22 January 2024 14: 19
      Dear Alexander!
      Thanks for your extensive comment.
      The main topic of the article is to acquaint readers with the real chain of events of recent years and days leading up to the scandal that happened in Dresden and, as a result, the formulations of the Russian Foreign Ministry on this matter. The author did not attempt to conduct a deep, multifaceted analysis of the events of 1940-1945. This would take a lot of time, I think more than one month. I deliberately took only German sources and exclusively from the media. Perhaps those who are interested in this topic will invest time in a detailed, multifaceted study of the scientific works of specialists from various countries devoted to the study of the events of that distant time.
      Best regards hi
  17. 0
    22 January 2024 14: 26
    Regarding the additional reflectors in the photo, that’s exactly it. Clearly noted. good
    1. 0
      22 January 2024 15: 36
      Dipole!!! Damn proofreader.
      1. +1
        22 January 2024 20: 34
        Eugen, these are not dipole reflectors, but a flare bomb to designate a target.
        The controversial photo is labeled as "dropping flare bombs over Duisburg."

        Example:
        1. 0
          22 January 2024 20: 42
          I scoured the Internet and asked the topic “dipole operators, British Air Force”. That's exactly the photo there! When I was preparing the article, I decided that these were “lighters”. That's why I attached it.
          1. 0
            22 January 2024 20: 47
            Yes, "sparkers".

            https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbrandbombe

            https://www.lokalkompass.de/duisburg/c-ratgeber/bombenfunde-halten-sicherheitskraefte-auf-trab-innenminister-jaeger-kampfmittelbeseitigung-bleibt-daueraufgabe_a160115
            1. +1
              22 January 2024 20: 49
              Here is another similar photo. It's clearly not foil on it.
              1. +1
                22 January 2024 20: 54
                Yes, the difference is noticeable, although the foil should bend with a flow of about 400 km/h of oncoming air.
            2. +2
              22 January 2024 20: 55
              I skimmed the text on your link. This is an article about World War II bomb disposal. Four photographs are general and non-specific. But anyway, thanks for the comment.
  18. +1
    23 January 2024 00: 06
    The question of the degree of responsibility of democratic regimes delegating powers to those who commit unimaginable cruelties and write the black pages of history and through this this very “demos” is a very interesting question. Those in power are responsible for the fruits of their choices of action - and their subordinates are responsible, and everyone in everyday life is responsible right down to the very bottom. Even a janitor who fails to remove dog poop from a visible place can end up fired.
    According to this line of logic, a society that has chosen a tyrant and destroyer as a Majority also bears responsibility. After all, choice is a decision.
    But, of course, you can chew on this paradigm with a super-argument like “this is OTHER.” Also because there were children there and those who did not vote for Hitler at the time. Based on this, yes, the question of the degree of guilt of society is still open - after all, there are no tools from which it would fly into the apple precisely for what it zigs and approves.

    The degree of influence of minorities and individual characters in the vast majority of societies is negligible. So, through this, one can add an additional argument that “collective responsibility” as an instrument of retribution would hardly be able to be completely contained within a “legal framework.” They did it because they could, because at one time the Germans did almost everything that they could do in similar events (except perhaps for chemical weapons).

    So thinking about “good or bad”, “right or wrong” of this and, for example, Hiroshima is a priori meaningless reasoning, firstly because this is a historical fact, this is already the past. And secondly, because unraveling this will lead us to a divergent dualism of the relationship to the fact, the more divergent the more we think about it.
    Dualism where one road is a long chain of reasoning in the style of “smaller sacrifices so that there are no larger ones” and “so that it is not common to incite a world war in the future,” etc.
    And the second road is the same endless facets of moralism on the topic of responsibility of those who actually had no control even over their location in space. Well, yes, humanism.

    In short, my point is that there is no objectively correct position here. There is simply one form or another of madness - superhumanism and superviolence.

    As for our stupid injections of agitprop, you need to understand that our agitprop is aimed at VERY stupid people who despise details and details. So a lot of what he spits out should be considered as content ordered by the target audience - the audience wants more hype content with blacks ruining Europe under substances, with orgies and vandalism against the backdrop of the dirty and riotous streets of old Europe.
  19. +1
    23 January 2024 02: 33
    They will bring schoolchildren to an inscription with such content and tell them what the damned Russians did to the residents of Dresden.
    Indeed, the curtain!
  20. +1
    23 January 2024 02: 49
    I live near Dresden, and contemporary witnesses told me about this attack. The attack on Dresden was a terrorist attack and, in my opinion, a war crime, as are most such attacks, because the civilian population was deliberately and systematically targeted from the very beginning, an unnecessary, brutal massacre.
    I consider the figure of 25 people called the “official commission” to be extremely implausible, because this commission is a commission of the German regime. You need to understand that Germany is a satrapy of the US empire. Accordingly, the image of former Western allies is naturally formed in the education system, in the media and in politics. In this regard, attempts are regularly made to deny the crimes of the Western allies or, if this is not possible, to adjust the numbers downward if possible. 000 are only those who could be positively identified, but most of the victims of the attack on a city crowded with refugees from the East were either burned beyond recognition in a firestorm or were subsequently burned without identification on grates made from railroad tracks and similar structures for preventing epidemics.
    The latent British and American tendencies towards terror and vile attacks on (almost) defenseless people were reaffirmed at Dresden and became a tradition of these predatory naval powers.