Military Review

Battle of Jutland. The largest and most ambitious naval battle of the First World War

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Battle of Jutland. The largest and most ambitious naval battle of the First World War
The sinking of the German battleship Pommern



During the First World War, the states of the warring parties did not spare the soldiers - it was not for nothing that contemporaries called this war a massacre, and some protracted battles - meat grinders. New methods of warfare were also tested: soldiers of hostile countries were killed using aviation, tanks, toxic substances.

However, warships played a surprisingly small role in that war. These toys, clad in armor and bristling with large-caliber guns, were too expensive. The rulers of all countries trembled at the thought of losing several battleships. Only once did the powerful squadrons of Great Britain and Germany enter into open battle.

The grandiose naval battle took place in the North Sea Skagerrak Strait near the northwestern coast of the Danish peninsula of Jutland. It began on the afternoon of May 31, 1916, and ended on the morning of June 1. Bolshoi's losses fleet Great Britain was significantly superior to the German fleet, however, the German fleet did not solve the assigned tasks. He failed to defeat the British and break the naval blockade of Germany. In fact, this battle was inconclusive.

Test of strength


The first naval battle of that war took place at the end of August 1914. The British planned their operation taking into account the fact that the fairway of the German naval base Wilhelmshaven at low tide became impassable for heavy ships. And on August 28, the squadron of Vice Admiral David Beatty near Heligoland defeated the detachment of Rear Admiral Leberecht Maass. The Germans lost 3 light cruisers and 2 destroyers, while the British suffered serious damage to 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers.

At the beginning of 1915, Rear Admiral Franz von Hipper's squadron made a surprise attack on the English coast.


Franz Ritter von Hipper, photo 1916

Already on the way back, she was overtaken by the British ships of Vice Admiral D. Beatty.


David Beatty, photo circa 1915

The advantage was on the side of the British: 47 warships against 26 German ones. The British also surpassed the Germans in the number of large ships: 12 cruisers (5 battleships and 7 light ones) versus 8 (3 battleships, 1 armored cruiser, 4 light ones). On January 24, in the battle of Dogger Bank, the German armored cruiser Blücher was sunk and the new battlecruiser Seydlitz was seriously damaged.

But the British flagship, the battle cruiser Lion, also suffered, receiving several “painful” hits. The irretrievable losses of the German side amounted to 1 sailors and officers, while the British lost 116 people.

After this defeat, Kaiser Wilhelm II prohibited the German fleet from leaving the well-defended Heligoland Bight, which is formed by the mouth of the Elbe River and is covered from the sea by the island of Heligoland and the Eiderstedt Peninsula. The British, together with the French, decided to capture the Turkish Bosporus and Dardanelles straits (Dardanelles or Gallipoli operation).

This expedition turned out to be extremely unsuccessful and ended in complete failure. Its initiator, Winston Churchill, was forced to resign from the post of First Lord of the Admiralty. For this reason, he fell into a state of deep depression and constantly complained to his friends: “I am a complete loser.”

Plans of the parties for 1916


In the new year, Great Britain and Germany began to prepare for a new battle at sea. The German fleet was then commanded by Vice Admiral Reinhard Scheer, whom his subordinates called “The Man in the Iron Mask” for his exactingness and severity.


Reinhard Scheer, photo 1916

The Germans planned to strike the English coast again, while Rear Admiral Hipper's squadron, consisting of 5 battle cruisers, 5 light cruisers and 30 destroyers, was supposed to avoid a big battle with the British, but lead them to the main forces of their High Seas Fleet (Hochseeflotte, imperial military The German fleet was also called the Kaiserlichmarine).

Reconnaissance from the air was to be carried out by German airships. The operation was scheduled for May 17–18, but the repair of the battle cruiser Seydlitz, which was blown up by a mine in April, was delayed, and then the weather deteriorated, and it became impossible to use the airships. The submarines that had been put out to sea in advance were already running out of the necessary resources.

Under these conditions, Scheer decided to abandon the campaign to the shores of England and send a squadron of cruisers to the Skagerrak Strait in order to paralyze commercial shipping, on which Britain critically depended.

It was assumed that the British would send part of their forces to Jutland, which would be defeated by the approaching High Seas Fleet. But the British themselves were planning an operation to lure out German ships under the attack of their Grand Fleet. For this purpose, two squadrons of cruisers were formed, which were supposed to pass through the Skagerrak and Kattegat to the Sound Strait and bring German ships with them on the way back.

Rival forces on the eve of the Battle of Jutland


Britain's large fleet was commanded by Vice Admiral John Rushworth Jellicoe.


John Rushworth, XNUMXst Earl of Jellicoe, bust in Trafalgar Square, London

He had at his disposal three battle squadrons of battleships, and he himself held the flag on the battleship Iron Duke - a total of 24 ships. With him were also three battlecruisers of Rear Admiral Horace Hood. At the same time, the 4 newest battleships of Rear Admiral Hugh Evan-Thomas were supposed to accompany the fast battle cruisers of David Beatty leading ahead - this ensured overwhelming fire superiority over the German cruisers of Franz Hipper.

In total, the Big Fleet included 42 heavy warships (battleships and battlecruisers) and 109 light warships - cruisers, destroyers, and auxiliary vessels. These ships carried 272 guns: 48 381 mm, 10 356 mm, 110 343 mm and 104 305 mm.

The total weight of the broadside of the British ships that set out on the campaign was 150,76 tons - versus 60,88 tons for the ships of the German High Seas Fleet (ratio 2,5: 1). In terms of displacement, the British fleet was almost twice as large as the German fleet - 1 tons versus 130.

The British fleet included those built in 1910–1914. 12 battleships, which are now often called super-dreadnoughts: 4 Orion types, 4 King George V types and 4 Iron Duke types. As well as the new battlecruisers that became part of the Grand Fleet in 1912–1914, which British sailors called “Splendid Cats”, and sometimes “Admiral Fisher’s Cats”. There were only three of them: Lion (“Lion”, not the French city), Princess Royal, Queen Mary. On the eve of the First World War, they became the largest and fastest cruisers, which also received 343 mm guns. But their reservation turned out to be insufficient.


Battlecruiser Lion


Battlecruiser Queen Mary

In June 1914, all three “Magnificent Cats”, as well as the battlecruiser “New Zealand”, called at Revel and Kronstadt. Nicholas II, Naval Minister I.K. Grigorovich, Russian naval engineers and officers boarded the “Lion”.


"Magnificent cats" "Lion", "Princess Royal" and the battlecruiser "New Zealand"

The German High Seas Fleet could oppose the British with two squadrons of relatively new battleships, plus the flagship battleship Friedrich the Great (often called Friedrich der Grosse in Russian literature) and a squadron of 6 obsolete low-speed battleships (pre-dreadnoughts).

In total, the Germans had 27 heavy ships that carried 200 guns - 128 305 mm and 72 280 mm. 11 light cruisers and 61 destroyers also went on the campaign.

Thus, the British put 151 ships into the sea, the Germans - 99. However, the new German battleships were superior to the British ones, and the training (including artillery) of their crews was higher. In addition, the British battlecruisers had weaker armor protection. And German gunpowder, unlike British gunpowder, burned without exploding.


Klaus Bergen. German fleet before the Battle of Jutland


Column of British battlecruisers in a painting by William Lionel Wylie

The beginning of the Battle of Jutland - the battle of the vanguards


So, in May 1916, the British Grand Fleet and the German High Seas Fleet set out to meet each other - both sides having no idea that they would be fighting against the main forces of the enemy in the largest naval battle of the war.

The British had David Beatty's detachment in the vanguard - as many as 46 ships. The main trump card was the Fifth Squadron of battleships of Rear Admiral H. Evan-Thomas - Valiant, Warspite, Malaya and Barham. Beatty also had two squadrons of battlecruisers at his disposal. In the First, led by O. Brock, there were three “Cats” and the “Tiger” (“Tiger”) who joined them. In the second, under the command of Pakenham, were Indefatigable and New Zealand. In addition, Beatty's vanguard included three squadrons of light cruisers (12 ships), four flotillas of destroyers (23 ships) and the Engedine seaplane transport. The main forces of the British were 105 ships of different classes, led by John Rushworth Jellicoe.

The distance between the ships of Beatty and Jellicoe was 65 miles - so as not to frighten off the German squadron, which the vanguard was supposed to bring to the main forces.

The first reconnaissance group of the High Seas Fleet (40 ships) was under the command of Rear Admiral Franz Hipper. The striking force of this detachment were five battlecruisers - Lützow, Derflinger, Seydlitz, Moltke and Von der Tann. They were accompanied by 4 light cruisers of Rear Admiral F. Boediker (Frankfurt, Wiesbaden, Pillau, Elbing) and 30 destroyers, commanded by Captain 1st Rank Heinrich.

As we can see, the advantage of Beatty's squad was overwhelming. Behind Hipper's vanguard were the main forces of the High Seas Fleet - 16 battleships, 6 battleships, 6 light cruisers and 31 destroyers (59 ships). They were commanded by Reinhard Scheer, who flew his flag on the battleship Frederick the Great.


Battleship "Frederick the Great"

On the afternoon of May 31, the German and British squadrons of Hipper and Beatty discovered each other quite by chance. The first shots were fired at 14:28: the German light cruiser Elbing, which stopped a passing Danish steamer for inspection, was attacked by the English light cruiser Galatea. IN history included the words of Hipper, spoken directly on board his flagship:

“Someday the science rats at the Naval Academy will be scratching their heads trying to figure out: What were we thinking? But we didn’t think anything. There was no time to think."

Between 15:20 and 15:24, the battlecruisers began the battle, moving on converging courses to the south-southeast - this phase of the battle is now called the "Run to the South". The British again had numerical superiority - six battlecruisers (including one of the "Magnificent Cats" - "Lion") against five.

However, at 16:03, the German battlecruiser Von der Tann sank the British Indefatigable, on which 1 sailors and officers were killed (two managed to escape). Then the Lützow nearly sank the British flagship, the “magnificent cat” Lion.


German battlecruiser Lützow

The British cruiser Tiger was also seriously damaged, receiving 9 hits from 280-mm Moltke shells.

British battleships approached the battle site, whose 381-mm guns became a significant trump card in the subsequent battle. Two German battle cruisers took the brunt of the attack. One of them was the Von der Tann, which was attacked by the battleships Malaya, Warspite and the battlecruiser New Zealand. The second was Moltke, whose opponents were the battleships Barham, Valiant and the battlecruiser Tiger. These German ships were damaged, but remained afloat and retained their combat effectiveness.

Meanwhile, the Germans successfully attacked the battle cruiser Queen Mary: one of the “magnificent cats” of the British went to the bottom, 1 people died, 266 were saved. Then the destroyers entered the battle, and each side lost two ships of this type. A British torpedo damaged the German cruiser Seydlitz, which nevertheless remained in service.

And the ships of the main forces of the German High Seas Fleet had already approached the battle site, and at 16:40 the British began to retreat north.

Battle of the main forces of the Grand Fleet and Hochseeflotte



Scheme of the Battle of Jutland


The Battle of Jutland, painted by Charles Dixon

The "run" of the British ships to the north lasted about 1 hour 20 minutes, but at about 17:30 Jellicoe finally collected all the squadrons. Now the British began to arrange their large ships in battle order - 24 battleships and 7 battlecruisers. And Scheer gave the signal to retreat to the west.

Mutual shelling between the battlecruisers resumed at 18:20, with the British initially in a more advantageous position, since the sky on their side was darker. Hipper's flagship Lützow received several hits.

However, then, at about 18:30, the sky above the British suddenly cleared and, as eyewitnesses recalled, the Germans saw the Invincible ship brightly illuminated by the sun. With a successful shot, the Luttsov gunners hit the main caliber turret, an explosion followed - and the third British battle cruiser sank to the bottom, 1 people were killed, including Admiral Hood, 026 were saved.


Battle cruiser "Invincible"


Horace Hood, photo 1916. Great-grandson of Admiral Samuel Hood, after whom the battlecruiser was named, who died on May 24, 1941 in a battle with the German battleship Bismarck.

The British armored cruiser Defense was also sunk, which was carried away by finishing off the enemy light cruiser Wiesbaden (which later sank) - and came under fire from German battleships. 900 sailors and officers died on it, including Rear Admiral Arbuthnot. Another armored cruiser, the Warrior, was so badly damaged that it was unable to return home - it sank on the way back. The cruiser Warspite was also badly damaged.


Warrior and Warspite at the Battle of Jutland

The German ships König, Seydlitz, Derflinger, Markgraf, and Grosser Kurfürst also received serious damage, but stayed afloat. Hipper's flagship "Lützow" left the ranks - the German rear admiral switched to "Moltke".

After this, at approximately 18:40, the ships of the enemy fleets lost sight of each other. Admiral Jellicoe, fearing mines, did not dare to pursue German ships. Instead, he ordered a turn south, intending to cut off the German fleet from its bases. This decision was later heavily criticized in Britain.

However, Scheer also made a very controversial decision: at 18:55 he suddenly turned his ships around and led them east - as it turned out, directly into the center of the column of British ships.

At 19:10, the German ships were again fired upon by the British, who managed to cover the cruiser Derflinger with their salvos, destroying two gun turrets on it. At 19:18, Scheer ordered a retreat, deploying battlecruisers and destroyers as guard ships, each of which fired a torpedo salvo, and then set up a smoke screen. This maneuver, by the way, received the highest praise from experts: a coordinated, synchronized 180-degree turn of an entire squadron under the cover of a smoke screen is not always possible, even in peacetime during exercises.

As a result, by 19:31 the German ships managed to break away. Beatty tried to pursue them. At 20:40 the German fleet was discovered again, but in the gathering darkness (the sun set at 21:07) Jellicoe, fearing to run into minefields and possible attacks by German submarines, did not dare to start the battle again. However, enemy ships kept bumping into each other and engaging in battle.

At 22 p.m., the light cruisers of both sides, the English Castor and the German Hamburg, were damaged in an artillery duel. At about 22:40 the British cruiser Southampton successfully torpedoed the German Frauenlob. At about 23 p.m., the German battleship Posen rammed the German cruiser Elbing, which had recently been attacked by enemy destroyers. German cruisers then attacked the British destroyer Tipperary, which later sank. The British destroyers Broke, Spitfire and Sparrowhawk were seriously damaged.

In the first hour of the night, British destroyers again attacked German ships, destroying the light cruiser Rostock, but losing the ships Fortune and Ardent. The English armored cruiser Black Prince came across German battleships and was shot at point-blank range by them.

British destroyers torpedoed the old (pre-dreadnought) German battleship Pommern, killing 800 sailors. Then, in a duel of destroyers, the German V-4 was sunk and damaged, but the British G-40 remained afloat.

Finally, at 5:20 a.m. on June 1, the German battleship Ostfriesland was struck by a mine. On the way home, the Germans had to sink Hipper’s flagship, the Lützow, which had lost power: it was finished off by its own destroyers.

This ended the Battle of Jutland, the surviving German ships returned to their bases.

Battle results


Immediately after the end of the Battle of Jutland, questions arose about its outcome and results.

Both sides wanted to declare themselves winners. The Germans indicated that they managed to sink more ships - 14 versus 11. Even better was the ratio of losses of ships of the first rank: the British lost three battle cruisers and three armored ships, the Germans lost one battle cruiser and one old battleship (pre-dreadnought).


British and German ships sunk at the Battle of Jutland

The displacement of sunk British ships was 111 tons, and that of German ships was 980 tons. At the same time, the British spent 62 large-caliber shells, the hit rate was 233 - 4%. German ships spent fewer shells - 480, and achieved 123 hits - 2,75%.

The losses of the crews of English ships also exceeded those of the Germans: 6 sailors and officers were killed or were listed as missing, 094 were wounded, 674 were captured. The Germans killed 177 people and wounded 2.

Euphoria reigned in Germany. The day of awarding ship crews was declared a day off. Kaiser Wilhelm personally presented orders and medals to particularly distinguished sailors and officers.


The Battle of Jutland on a German postcard from 1916

Nothing was said about the fact that the German fleet, which won “on points,” actually fled from the British to its bases. Britain quite rightly stated that the German High Seas Fleet had not solved its strategic problems.

The Grand Fleet suffered serious losses, but fully retained its combat capability and continued to control the sea; the blockade of the German coast was not lifted. However, the actions of Admirals Jellicoe and Beatty were severely criticized. A commission was even created to investigate the reasons for such high losses, which, however, did not reveal any serious miscalculations, much less signs of negligence or negligence.

As a result, Beatty became Admiral of the Fleet and Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Fleet at the end of November 1916. Jellicoe received the Order of Merit and the post of Deputy First Lord of the Admiralty. He was supposed to concentrate on fighting German submarines, but resigned already in January 1917.

Both sides were extremely disappointed, coming to the conclusion that the huge expenses for the construction and maintenance of large warships were not justified. The grandiose naval battle only led to heavy losses and had virtually no effect on the situation on the fronts. There has been a tendency to treat the surface fleet as a burden: it is expensive, but of little use.

But in general, the strategic results of the Battle of Jutland were in favor of the British.

Germany simply did not have the resources not only to build new ships, but also to quickly repair damaged ones. And so the fateful decision was made on “unlimited submarine warfare,” which ultimately became one of the reasons for the United States to enter the war.

The fate of the German High Seas Fleet


After the Battle of Jutland, Kaiser Wilhelm II again prohibited his admirals from engaging in major battles with the Grand Fleet. And Germany's resources were rapidly depleted: ultimately, it was defeated not on the fronts of that Great War, but in the rear - on its own territory. In June 1918, American troops began to arrive in France. They will be at the front only in October, but already on August 8, 1918, Kaiser Wilhelm II said:

“We can't stand it anymore. The war must be ended."

And on August 13, the Crown Council of the Second Reich, chaired by the Kaiser, decided to begin peace negotiations with the Entente states. Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands was chosen as a mediator. The situation was rapidly deteriorating. On September 28, 1918, Bulgaria capitulated, on September 30, Austria-Hungary, and the German generals fell into panic. Ludendorff stated on October 1:

“Today the troops are holding out, what will happen tomorrow is impossible to predict... The front can be broken through at any moment, and then our proposal will arrive at the most unfavorable time... Our proposal must be immediately transmitted from Bern to Washington. The army cannot wait forty-eight hours.”

On October 2, he was supported by Hindenburg, who, in a telegram sent to Berlin, said that the army would not be able to hold out for more than forty-eight hours.

And the next day the Ottoman Empire capitulated.

When on October 24, US President Wilson in his note hinted at the desirability of removing Wilhelm II and other “militarist overlords of Germany” from power, the Kaiser was immediately betrayed by both the top leaders of the state and the generals.

The admirals remained faithful, and in the hope that victory would inspire German society and turn the tide, on October 28, 1918, they ordered the warships stationed in Kiel to go to sea and attack the British fleet. But this only led to a revolt among the sailors, who turned off the ship’s furnaces on October 29. The subsequent arrests finally brought the situation to a head. On November 2, 1918, sailors and townspeople went out to an anti-government demonstration; on November 4, the crews of all ships and soldiers of the Kiel garrison joined the uprising. A council of soldiers' deputies was created in Kiel, and on November 5, a council of workers' deputies was also created.

On November 7, King Ludwig III of Bavaria was deposed in Munich. On November 8, the uprising began in Berlin.

On November 9, Chancellor Maximilian of Baden announced the abdication of both the Kaiser and the Crown Prince. Wilhelm II learned about his abdication from the newspapers and on November 10 chose to flee to Holland. On November 11, a truce was signed in Compiegne. And only on November 28, Wilhelm signed the official act of abdication of the thrones of the empire and Prussia.

According to the Treaty of Versailles, Germany transferred to the winners all warships, submarines and aircraft (as well as 5 thousand guns, 25 thousand machine guns and many locomotives and carriages). Outraged German sailors sank 21 ships in one of the bays of the British harbor of Scapa Flow on June 1919, 52: 10 battleships, 5 battleships and 5 light cruisers, 32 destroyers (sometimes they say that there were 4 sunken light cruisers, in which case the total number of sunken ships – 51).


The sinking of the battleship Bayern


Rear Admiral Ludwig von Reuther, who ordered the sinking of interned German ships

The British managed to save 22 ships, including 1 battleship and 3 light cruisers.

The cost of the sunken ships was added to the amount of reparations imposed on Germany. The German ships lying at the bottom were gradually raised and sent for scrap.

Currently, there are still 4 battleships and 3 cruisers at the bottom, which have become popular objects among British and foreign divers.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2023 05: 39
    +3
    Gorgeous, Valery - bravo!
    It is worth continuing the maritime theme, at least about the operations of the British and French in the Dardanelles.

    He failed to defeat the British and break the naval blockade of Germany.

    It seems to me that the Germans did not set themselves such tasks before the Battle of Jutland, and it is not known where the monkfish took Britain, if not for the Kaiser’s actual ban on naval operations after the battle you described!!!
    Thank you again, Comrades, good day, success and prosperity, and more such surprises, with sincere respect to Kote!
    1. Dutchman Michel
      Dutchman Michel 25 October 2023 06: 00
      +8
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      It seems to me that the Germans did not set themselves such tasks

      Breaking the naval blockade, which was seriously strangling the German economy, or at least partially weakening it, was the main goal. By 1916, there was no time for grandiose victories over the British fleet; one would not die of hunger wink
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2023 11: 41
        +3
        Breaking the naval blockade, which was seriously strangling the German economy, or at least partially weakening it, was the main goal. By 1916 there was no time for grandiose victories over the British fleet, one would not die of hunger wink

        Break through where? In - Turkey, across the Atlantic is not realistic - it is easier (however, Germany started after the Bulgarians entered the war) to organize trade along inland waterways, and where there is none, build a railway. With the countries of South America it is debatable (they all took the side of the Entente). With China it is not advisable. There is a land border with Denmark, and its neutrality in WWII did not live up to the Kaiser’s hopes, which is why it was culled during WWII. The only thing left is Sweden, which is on the other side.
        The only real motive for breaking the blockade is to provide assistance to its contingents in Africa (they have already been eliminated in Asia).
        With all due respect, Mikhail, the economic aspect of breaking the blockade is questionable. The option of causing maximum damage to Britain's trade is more likely, although initially a purely terrorist act with artillery shelling of the civilian population of cities on the coast of Foggy Albion was planned.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 October 2023 13: 02
          +8
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Break through where?

          Well, there was a country that even called a German unarmed submarine that came for raw materials a commercial ship.
          So if there was money or scarce goods, there would be suppliers. Especially if the airliners with citizens of these countries are not sunk. wink
    2. VLR
      25 October 2023 06: 20
      +5
      Good morning. I already wrote about the Allied operation in the Dardanelles here in 2019. You apparently missed it - the article “The Battle of the Straits. The Gallipoli operation of the Allies”:

      https://topwar.ru/159583-bitva-za-prolivy-gallipolijskaja-operacija-sojuznikov.html?utm_source=website&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=group
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2023 11: 45
        +4
        I confess, I forgot!
        However, there is a reason to look for something else, something marine-themed. The above work went very well. Thanks again!
    3. Richard
      Richard 25 October 2023 13: 40
      +5
      Thanks to the author, it reads like all his articles in one breath, but even for me, a person far from naval topics, the author’s classification of the participants’ ships involuntarily hurts my ears. Sorry - this is IMHO
      1. Sergey79
        Sergey79 25 October 2023 18: 24
        0
        Hello. And I wouldn’t say thank you to the author. Let me explain why. I am 44 years old. I am interested in history (including maritime history). Reading this article gave me a feeling of "Deja Vu". I remembered that I read this about 25 years ago (most likely the Gangut magazine). Comrade "Ryabkov" (the author of the article) is clearly acting dishonestly. Most likely illegal. Let me explain why. If the author writes his material based on another, then there must be links. Comrade “Ryabkov” recently wrote on the topic of artillery. I’m ready to “disassemble” all his articles. The author knows practically nothing about artillery
        1. VLR
          25 October 2023 19: 22
          +3
          Sergey79, if you mean me, then I would like to inform you that I never use one single source when working, but collect a whole bunch of materials, and then use 15-20 percent of the information contained in them. Because the format is like this - don’t hit your brain, filling it with dates, facts, technical details, but try to create a holistic picture that is easy to understand. And I just can’t rewrite anything because I don’t know how to do it. If I decide to rewrite my own article, it will turn out different - compositionally and written in different words. So let’s give you a link to your “Gangut” and we’ll figure it out. If you can't give, don't fantasize. By the way, I haven’t written a single article about artillery - and I don’t intend to, because I’m definitely not an expert. Here you also imagined something.
          Regarding this short article, I tried to solve three problems at once -
          1. briefly talk about the events preceding the battle,
          2.tell briefly and clearly about the battle itself,
          3. Briefly talk about the fate of the German fleet.
          It was quite difficult to fit everything into such a small amount of text. And so that it is also easy to read - not as a scientific article, but as an interesting story. I tried. That's how it happened, that's how it happened.
    4. Cartographer
      Cartographer 25 October 2023 21: 16
      +1
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      It seems to me that the Germans did not set themselves such tasks before the Battle of Jutland, and it is not known where the monkfish took Britain, if not for the Kaiser’s actual ban on naval operations after the battle you described!!!

      The Germans knew how to count perfectly and knew that the British fleet was stronger. Their plans were to defeat the British piecemeal, and not in a general battle.
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      If only the Kaiser had not actually banned naval operations after the battle you described!!!

      After the battle, the British fleet was replenished with the battlecruisers Rinaun and Repulse, and then the Americans sent a squadron of dreadnoughts. The balance of forces became completely unequal. And the sailors on the German ships began to rebel
  2. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 25 October 2023 07: 02
    +11
    Thank you, Valery!
    I was very pleased with the illustrations. The text is, to be honest, not very good. The usual popular version within stories for schoolchildren. This is approximately what the report made by my classmate Alexander about this battle looked like half a century ago. We all, on the instructions of our Historian, made reports on the weapons and operations of the First World War.
    For translated articles the following rule follows:
    1) Do not literally translate the names of the ships (Lion, Tiger, New Zealand), but either write them in the original name or in the transcription of the target language.
    2) Observe the semantic load of the sentences in terms accepted for the country into whose language the article is translated, Otherwise:
    The German ships “König”, “Seydlitz”, “Derflinger”, “Markgraf”, “Grosser Kurfürst” also received serious damage, but stayed afloat
    - What, they could only avoid drowning? On the contrary, having received fifteen-inch shells, they retained their speed, controllability and combat effectiveness!
    3) Well, be sure to check and correct errors in the original like:
    The cruiser Warspite was also badly damaged.
    - Eka, you demoted His Majesty’s strongest battleship!
    But once again, it’s easy to read, the illustrations are excellent, and the conclusions about the strategic significance of this battle are correct.
    Thank you!
    1. Dutchman Michel
      Dutchman Michel 25 October 2023 07: 21
      +3
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      the conclusions about the strategic significance of this battle are correct.

      What strategic significance did this battle have? wink
      1. Grossvater
        Grossvater 25 October 2023 07: 30
        +3
        None! Germany could only win by gaining COMPLETE and ABSOLUTE supremacy at sea. Just based on geography. The preservation of at least some naval forces in England made it possible to constantly keep Germany's trade routes through the North Sea, and especially through the Strait, under a flank threat.
        Those. the complete destruction of the ENTIRE Naglitz fleet was required, and this, as you understand, was impossible, even with the use of a cannonball smile!
        1. Dutchman Michel
          Dutchman Michel 25 October 2023 09: 14
          +3
          Quote: Grossvater
          The preservation of at least some naval forces in England made it possible to constantly keep Germany's trade routes under threat on the flank

          At least some English Navy, at least somehow they could let Germany breathe, but the strong British fleet, which remained strong after the Battle of Jutland, did not even allow Germany to breathe
        2. Rakovor
          Rakovor 25 October 2023 10: 19
          +2
          Well, yes, as Boltykh wrote, the Germans simply would not have had enough shells to sink the entire English fleet.
          1. Wened75
            Wened75 25 October 2023 13: 13
            +1
            Quote: Rakovor
            Well, yes, as Boltykh wrote, the Germans simply would not have had enough shells to sink the entire English fleet.

            What about submarine torpedoes? ;)
      2. Victor Leningradets
        Victor Leningradets 25 October 2023 07: 49
        +4
        Eh, dear Michel!
        Your compatriot and namesake Mikhail Adrianszoon de Ruyter knew.
        The strategic importance for the Germans is to dispel the myth of the invincibility of the Grad Fleet, in order to prevent the United States and others from entering the war. This was not accomplished, mainly due to the absence of Mackensen-class battlecruisers and (partially) Baern-class battleships in the High Seas Fleet by May 1916.
        It is of strategic importance for Great Britain to maintain a blockade of the Central Powers with the aim of strangling them. The task at this stage was completed.
        1. Dutchman Michel
          Dutchman Michel 25 October 2023 09: 16
          +6
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Strategic importance for the Germans - to dispel the myth of the invincibility of Grad Flit

          The strategic importance for the Germans by 1916 was to prevent their population from starving and to somehow supply the factories working for the war with raw materials wink
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 10: 21
            +5
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            The strategic importance for the Germans by 1916 was to prevent their population from starving and to somehow supply the factories working for the war with raw materials

            Which was quite possible if there had not been a naval blockade
      3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 10: 20
        +6
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        What strategic significance did this battle have?

        Maintaining the naval blockade of Germany, which in many ways led to its disaster
    2. know
      know 25 October 2023 09: 16
      +3
      popular version

      Considering that this online magazine is not aimed at professionals, but at people interested in history (like me), I think that “deepening into the wilds” would make the article more difficult to read and therefore much less interesting.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 October 2023 13: 15
      +3
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      - What, they could only avoid drowning? On the contrary, having received fifteen-inch shells, they retained their speed, controllability and combat effectiveness!

      Yeah... especially Seydlitz.

      2600 tons of water received by the end of the battle, 5300 tons the next day, draft 14 m, the ship is towed to the base and stays afloat only thanks to the efforts of the rescuers. To enter the base, it was necessary to dismantle the guns and partially the armor of the bow BSh GK.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      - Eka, you demoted His Majesty’s strongest battleship!

      The “Queens” would have needed a couple more knots - and it would have been an ideal WWII battle cruiser. smile
      1. Victor Leningradets
        Victor Leningradets 25 October 2023 18: 18
        0
        The “Queens” would have needed a couple more knots - and it would have been an ideal WWII battle cruiser.

        Once upon a time four years ago I wrote on VO:
        The construction of the "R" series of battleships was a mistake. Instead of 8 battleships of 26 thousand tons, it was possible to lay down 6 battleships of 35 - 36 thousand tons, carrying weapons and armor similar to battleships of the "R" type and the power plant of the battle cruiser "Tiger". This would have made it possible by 1916 to create ships that were superior in armament to all their contemporaries, and in progress - not inferior to most battlecruisers. At the same time, the budget allocated for the construction of the entire “R” series would be preserved.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 19: 03
          +2
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Once upon a time four years ago I wrote on VO

          With all due respect, this all looks like Odessa folk wisdom: if only I were as smart now as my wife was later... :)
          1. Victor Leningradets
            Victor Leningradets 25 October 2023 20: 11
            0
            Greetings, Maxim!
            It’s just that at that time they were discussing “The best standard battleship of the First World War era” (for the Americans these were battleships that entered service after the war). To my surprise, “Baern” was appointed as such. Although the battle at the Skagerrak showed that the time for wall-to-wall squadron battles had passed. The main role began to be played by mobile linear forces - battlecruisers and their interaction with light forces. Based on the maneuvers carried out back in 1911, Kaiser Wilhelm II proposed creating a single type of ship with an armament of eight guns of a caliber “sufficient under any circumstances,” protection equivalent to battleships and the speed of a battlecruiser. But in order to avoid complications with the passage of the budget through the Reichstag, Tirpitz insisted on the parallel development of the Bayern and Mackensen projects. Well, about battleships of the "R" type - this is about a similar mistake by the British. Instead of type evolution, we got a merchant reduction.
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 20: 34
              0
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Well, about battleships of the "R" type - this is about a similar mistake by the British. Instead of type evolution, we got a merchant reduction.

              Again, afterthoughts are evident. :)
              But to the credit of the Germans, we can say that they were the first to come up with the idea of ​​a “single battleship” (Ersatz Yorkie).
              1. Negro
                Negro 25 October 2023 20: 48
                +1
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                But to the credit of the Germans, we can say that they were the first to come up with the idea of ​​a “single battleship” (Ersatz Yorkie).

                Really? It seems that this is an LKR, and the LK relied on a hippopotamus with wider guns.

                But yes, Ersatz York looks pretty adequate by WWII standards.
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 21: 00
                  +2
                  Quote: Negro
                  Really? Looks like it's LCR

                  According to the German classification, yes, but if you look into the future, it turned out to be quite a prototype of future high-speed battleships.

                  Quote: Negro
                  The LK relied on a hippopotamus with wider guns.

                  The Germans still hadn’t decided on the “hippos”: in the spring of 18 they had a bunch of sketches of “battleships” (they were never able to completely decide on the class) with armament from 2x2 to 4x2-42 cm, but judging by comments on the drawings, there was not much consensus... :)
                  1. Negro
                    Negro 25 October 2023 21: 38
                    +2
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    but if you look into the future, it turned out to be quite a prototype of future high-speed battleships.

                    Cough cough. I once developed the idea (or someone else developed it) that the WWII “fast battleship” was used mainly not in a line (especially a line of more than 2 ships), but as part of the heterogeneous forces of a naval strike group. That is, it is more of a large cruiser (battle cruiser), rather than a battleship.
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    in the spring of '18 they had a bunch of sketches of "battleships"

                    Nevertheless, we are somewhat contemplating the transition to the “main battleship” for the sake of beauty. Real Germans, like the British/Americans/Japanese during WWII, were more likely to be in the LK/LKR paradigm than to prepare for a revolution in naval tactics according to the behests of Victor Leningrad and the late Jackie Fisher.
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 22: 11
                      +1
                      Quote: Negro
                      That is, it is more of a large cruiser (battle cruiser), rather than a battleship.

                      I think this is more a question of the total number of capitalships and the possibility of their construction: if there were commercial quantities of them, the cuts would be no less epic.

                      Quote: Negro
                      Real Germans, like the British/Americans/Japanese during WWII, were more likely to be in the LK/LKR paradigm

                      But among the Germans and Japanese, both classes gradually merged, unlike the Anglo-Saxons.
                      1. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 07: 58
                        +1
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I think this is more a question of the total number of capitalships and the possibility of their construction: if there were commercial quantities of them, the cuts would be no less epic.

                        Ironically, but memorable “cuts” with lines were carried out by grandfathers: the Italians and the British in the Mediterranean and Kincaid in the Philippines. The actions of new battleships, even in fair numbers, there in the Philippines, make all battleship lovers want to drink. We believed you as much, Comrade Halsey, as we might not have believed in ourselves.

                        I'm not sure if this is an accident.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        But among the Germans and Japanese, both classes gradually merged, unlike the Anglo-Saxons

                        Hm. 15-inch 3-turret cardboard 32-knot Rinaun, 15-inch 4-turret armored 23-knot Lisa, 15-inch 4-turret armored (almost) 32-knot Hood.

                        There must be Germans and Japanese around here somewhere.
                    2. Victor Leningradets
                      Victor Leningradets 26 October 2023 06: 25
                      0
                      If you, young friend, wrote this, then I did the same thing. And I also caught minuses from armor and steam adherents. I will repeat my favorite thesis:
                      “If you look closely, the Bismarck is a grown and improved Derflinger, and not at all an overclocked Baern.
                      If we divide the ships according to their use, then the Vittorio Veneto at Gavdos, or the Littorio in the Gulf of Sirte (second battle), the Bismarck in its first and last raid, and the Prince of Wales at Kuantan acted precisely as battlecruisers .
                      The history of battleships ended in 1927 with the construction of the Nelson and Rodney. With some stretch, they can still include the American battleships BB-57 - BB-61 of the South Dakota class. As for the record holder Yamato, despite focused on a general battle, it was still used in two of its battles as a battle cruiser (extremely suboptimal in its characteristics).
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 26 October 2023 07: 16
                        +2
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        I will repeat my favorite thesis:
                        “If you look closely, the Bismarck is a grown and improved Derflinger, and not at all an overclocked Baern.

                        In fact, and beyond any doubt, Bismarck is neither one nor the other.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        If we divide the ships according to their use, then the Vittorio Veneto at Gavdos, or the Littorio in the Gulf of Sirte (second battle), the Bismarck in its first and last raid, and the Prince of Wales at Kuantan acted precisely as battlecruisers .

                        Participated in a linear battle as a high-speed wing with linear forces? :)
                      2. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 07: 40
                        +1
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        If you, young friend, wrote this, then I did the same thing

                        As seafarers say, great minds think alike (or as non-navigators say, dudaks have similar thoughts).
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        With some stretch, they can still include the American battleships BB-57 - BB-61 of the South Dakota type.

                        I don't agree. Montana/Iowa were a classic LK/LKR pairing in the new round of the race. Only an accident in the form of a PX prevented this idea from being realized.
                        And Dakota is just sabotage.
                      3. Victor Leningradets
                        Victor Leningradets 26 October 2023 19: 23
                        0
                        Montana is yes, a pure battleship, and is designed to operate in a line. But it is known that this decision was led by research showing that a battleship with 9 (3x3) 457-mm Mk A guns is in no way superior to a battleship with 12 (4x3) 406-mm Mk 7 guns when using super-heavy shells of 1746 kg and 1225 kg, respectively .
                        The extensive way of increasing the striking power of battleships was already virtually exhausted.
                        As for the actions of the battleships of the Second World War in the spirit of the battlecruisers of the First World War, it would be nice to remember how the Invincible and Inflexible acted on 08.12.1914/XNUMX/XNUMX - not at all as a high-speed wing, but as the center and main force of a combat formation.
                      4. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 19: 33
                        +1
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        As for the actions of the battleships of the Second World War in the spirit of the battlecruisers of the First World War, it would be nice to remember how the Invincible and Inflexible acted on 08.12.1914/XNUMX/XNUMX - not at all as a high-speed wing, but as the center and main force of a combat formation.

                        Flipping through Burt....
                      5. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 21: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        But it is known that this decision was led to by research showing that a battleship with 9 (3x3) 457-mm Mk A guns is in no way superior to a battleship with 12 (4x3) 406-mm Mk 7 guns when using super-heavy shells of 1746 kg and 1225 kg, respectively .

                        I've seen it all, but the opposite version is more plausible.

                        If the Americans knew the caliber of Yamato, Montana would have been armored for it. Accordingly, 18" armor would drag along an 18" main battery. But since the ship was balanced at 16", it seemed unnecessary to invent something with the new main battery: having a quantitative advantage, there was no need to bet on the "golden bullet". I will say more, at 14-16" opponents, Montana was not needed at all - what did the Americans think and they came willy-nilly.
                      6. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 19: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        And Dakota is just sabotage.

                        In the absence of a stamp, they write in simple terms: the contractual system has not completely collapsed, the allocations have already been calculated...
                      7. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 21: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        the contractual system has not completely collapsed,

                        Uh, no, I’ve read entire altstories on this topic. The first Dakota was laid down the day after the second Lion; no references to treaties (cancelled by the Americans themselves) were made.

                        This is exactly the American mess for which they became famous.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I think the story would be repeated here with the “Michigans”, who, due to the slowness of the Americans, became “dreadnoughts”... :)

                        The first American 45-thousander turned out to be so bad that the Americans have been lying ever since that they built the best 35-thousander (not the best, but at least something).
                      8. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 21: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        The first Dakota was laid down the day after the second Lion; no references to treaties (cancelled by the Americans themselves) were made.

                        Actually, the agreement was “cancelled” by the Japanese when they refused to sign it...
                        By the way, Lion is also far from being a 45-thousander. :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        The first American 45-thousander turned out to be so bad that the Americans have been lying ever since that they built the best 35-thousander (not the best, but at least something).

                        I don’t quite understand your train of thought.
                      9. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 22: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I don’t quite understand your train of thought


                        36th year, second London, 35K/14"
                        On April 1, 37, due to the position of Japan, the clause 35K/16 was put into force.
                        November 4, 37, Yamato was laid down.
                        Winter 1938, the design of Iowa has begun, the Americans go to London to de facto cancel the treaty regarding battleships
                        Musashi was laid down on March 29
                        March 31, the contractual limit is increased to 45K/16". This is essentially the maximum battleship of the Panama Canal.
                        May 17, Vinson's second act, includes 45K battleships.
                        May, September, second pair of Littorio laid
                        July 15, "Soviet Union" was founded
                        December 15, Lyon's project is approved. It does not fully utilize 45K due to docking restrictions.
                        January 17, 1939 Clemenceau was laid down
                        On February 28, the first pair of Lions was ordered.
                        On April 14, the first pair of H-class were ordered.
                        On June 1, the first Lion was laid down. July 4th second.
                        On July 5, 1939, Dakota was laid down.
                        On July 15, the first N-class was laid down.
                        Alabama was founded on February 1, 1940.
                        On June 27, 1940, Iowa was founded.

                        I think the picture is clear. The exceptionally weak work of all participants in the process led to the fact that America laid down very expensive ships, which were already obsolete at the time of laying and were catastrophically inferior to almost all ships of their class laid down simultaneously with them and even some laid down earlier. Arrogant and lazy, almost Soviet in this sense, American propagandists justified the existence of Alabama by saying that it was “the best treaty battleship” - meaning the treaty that was canceled at the request of the Americans two years before her laying. It's as if the world's leading firearms enthusiast showed up to a gunfight with the world's best knife.

                        Well, the quality of the project itself does not suit me at all. Nelson was made 15 years later, 1,5 times larger and 2 knots faster. The slowest fast battleship.
                      10. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 23: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        July 15, "Soviet Union" was founded

                        The Anglo-Soviet agreement somewhat turned a blind eye to the construction of “non-treaty” ships.

                        Quote: Negro
                        On April 14, the first pair of H-class were ordered.

                        Quote: Negro
                        On July 15, the first N-class was laid down.

                        The Germans withdrew from the Anglo-German agreement in December '39.

                        Quote: Negro
                        referring to the treaty canceled at the request of the Americans two years before her laying.

                        Actually, in a year...
                        On the other hand, the project is not done on the knee.
                        The Americans had a good example of a “knee-jerk” project: the North Carolina, hastily redesigned for a 16" main gun.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Nelson was made 15 years later, 1,5 times larger and 2 knots faster.

                        What are you talking about now?
                      11. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 00: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Anglo-Soviet agreement somewhat turned a blind eye to the construction of “non-treaty” ships.

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Germans withdrew from the Anglo-German agreement in December '39.

                        Excuse me, but what does that matter?

                        I listed LC bookmarks from the years 38-40. It is easy to notice that of the 35 thousand tons there, Clemenceau, Roma and Impero are ships of old designs, unlike Dakota. Nevertheless, it is with them that it is proposed to compare Dakota - since she clearly does not stand up to comparison with the rest of her peers.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Actually, in a year...

                        Alabama. From March 38 to February 40 is more likely two years than one.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        What are you talking about now?

                        I believe that the Dakota was a rejection of the fast battleship idea. The result was the American Nelson, which was 4 knots faster than the American line (for some reason) and 8 knots slower than the aircraft carriers. Or, if you want, a very close analogue of Nagato, this is 20 years later. The problem that was not solved when designing the Carolina - who would chase the Congo - was simply ignored in the case of the Dakota. What resources were spent on, especially small intellectual ones, I cannot understand.

                        Here some people are bashing KD5 for exactly this - the ship was built under the lifted restrictions. But compared to the background of the Dakotas, Kingi is simply an example of wisdom.
                      12. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 13: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        What resources were spent on, especially small intellectual ones, I cannot understand.

                        According to the 2nd London, the maximum service life of the LC is 26 years.
                        By the 40th year 3 units approached him, by the 42nd 4 more, by the 44th 2 more.
                        So the plan to maintain the battleship fleet worked quite well.
                        The fact that there is a war ahead - the grandmother said in two...
                      13. Victor Leningradets
                        Victor Leningradets 27 October 2023 05: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        And Dakota is just sabotage.

                        In the absence of a stamp, they write in simple terms: the contractual system has not completely collapsed, the allocations have already been calculated...

                        Here I allow myself to disagree with you.
                        The issue of laying down the Iowa squadron in 1940 instead of the Massachusetts (1939) and Alabama (1940) was seriously considered. It turned out that this would lead to the fact that in 1942 not 3 - 4 battleships, but only two, and, as expected, inferior to the hypothetical Japanese battleships of 45000 T. And additional American ships of 45000 T each will enter service in 1943, i.e. they may “not make it in time.”
                        Well, yes, with the chosen option there is no need to re-coordinate the budget, and some of the equipment, in particular the guns, are already ready.
                      14. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 08: 50
                        -2
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Not 3 - 4 battleships will enter service, but only two, and, as expected, inferior to the hypothetical Japanese battleships of 45000 T

                        To me, the Dakota is one of the types that should never have been built or designed at all. In fact, most of the pre-war American types should not have been built or designed.
                      15. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 13: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        To me, the Dakota is one of the types that should never have been built or designed at all. In fact, most of the pre-war American types should not have been built or designed.

                        Big things can be seen from a distance... :)
                      16. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 18: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Big things can be seen from a distance... :)

                        It's "Catch the Hitman!"
                        However, the shortcomings of American battleships were widely discussed by chrono-natives.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        According to the 2nd London, the maximum service life of the LC is 26 years.
                        By the 40th year 3 units approached him, by the 42nd 4 more, by the 44th 2 more.
                        So the plan to maintain the battleship fleet worked quite well.
                        The fact that there is a war ahead - the grandmother said in two...

                        This is not an explanation.

                        I started to describe all the American battleships with the overage of each and the remaining VI available for the new ones. But I changed my mind.

                        There is a specific document that allows the construction of 45-thousanders, the second act of Vinson dated May 17, 38. This document, by its very existence, makes all 35-thousanders obsolete. However, after this act, 5 35-thousanders were laid. By the way, there are three 14-inch kings after the 16" unban. The arguments are the opposite of your “grandmother in two” - war is on the doorstep, there is no time to wait. The reason “why not Iowa” is also known: there is no project. The Soviet government, also still a nation of seafarers, has a project , Americans (French and Italians) do not.

                        I think we should expect a little more from people's power. This will allow a more accurate assessment of its achievements.
                      17. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 18: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        It's "Catch the Hitman!"

                        You can say that... :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        The reason “why not Iowa” is also known: there is no project. In Soviet power,

                        Well...at least the USSR had a 35-thousander: the “Russian Nelson”, known as pr.21. But it was abandoned when preparations began for the signing of the Aglo-Soviet Agreement. We decided to build a “maximum battleship”

                        Quote: Negro
                        By the way, there are three 14-inch kings after the 16" unban.

                        The British had a sad time with 16" ... and there was no ready-made project for 16".
                      18. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 19: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The British had a sad time with 16" ... and there was no ready-made project for 16".

                        Oops, we’ve reached the best battleship of the war according to one site member.

                        16" is not necessary.

                        And according to my thesis: some comrades here who do not like the British, like me, American democrats and Soviet communists combined, talk about the KD5 as the worst battleship of the last wave (of those built). They may be right (although Admiral King will argue), but the circumstances of the construction of second-rate English battleships and second-rate American battleships differ radically - and not in favor of their overseas cousins.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Well...at least the USSR had a 35-thousander: the “Russian Nelson”, known as pr.21.

                        Plans, cough-cough, huge.

                        I'm not talking about plans. To my taste, the large fleet was generally a pretty useless anchor around the neck of the young Soviet republic. I described the context in which the Americans laid down their “35-thousanders”.
                      19. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 20: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        second-rate English battleships

                        Don't forget that the British had, among other things, the motto "dengy-dengy-dengy"...
                        You must remember what nonsense they proposed when discussing the 2nd London project.

                        Quote: Negro
                        second-rate American battleships

                        I still don’t understand why you don’t like “Dakotas”... :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        To my taste, the large fleet was generally a pretty useless anchor around the neck of the young Soviet republic.

                        Taking into account the long sea border, you can’t go anywhere without it...

                        Quote: Negro
                        I described the context in which the Americans laid down their “35-thousanders”.

                        It seems to me that the context is so simple: I already wrote about the absence of “stamp paper”. It seems to me that if there had been a ready-made project for the “ayovs,” they would have been laid down.
                        The same was true for the French and, to a lesser extent, for the Italians.
                      20. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 20: 17
                        -2
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        You must remember what nonsense they proposed when discussing the 2nd London project.

                        25K/12"?

                        This idea has its advantages, oddly enough.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Taking into account the long sea border, you can’t go anywhere without it...

                        By SLO?
                        Russia, by all names, has never had and apparently never will have a full-fledged fleet. The closest thing to a claim to the top 3 was the USSR of stagnation: this does not do it any credit.

                        It is obvious that she simply does not need a fleet.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I still don’t understand why you don’t like “Dakotas”... :)

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        It seems to me that if there had been a ready-made project for the “ayovs,” they would have been laid down.

                        I do not consider these circumstances to be objective. Actually, it is precisely this - the result of the work - that I don’t like the Dakotas.
                      21. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 20: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        25K/12"?

                        Like one of them...

                        Quote: Negro
                        This idea has its advantages, oddly enough.

                        Yeah, cheap and cheerful... :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        By SLO?

                        And THAT is not strange... :)
                        Baltic with the World Cup - the song is somewhat separate and strange in its own way...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Russia, under all names, has never had and apparently never will have a full-fledged fleet.

                        Again, it depends on what you mean by this term.

                        Quote: Negro
                        I do not consider these circumstances to be objective.

                        Again, you understand this from the 21st century.
                        As I understand it, if you were King, you would be ready to wait for the conditional “Iowa” until the beginning of ’43?
                      22. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 22: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Yeah, cheap and cheerful

                        I think highly of the Deutschlands.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        And it’s not strange

                        There is nothing there. Hello Bongo.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        what is meant by this term.

                        Quote: Negro
                        claims to top3

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If you were King, would you be ready to wait for the conditional “Iowa” until the beginning of 43?

                        Firstly, the first pair of Dakotas appeared on the theater at 4/4 of the 42nd. So the beginning of '43 is a more than moderate period, unless of course you leave Guadalcanal deterministic.

                        Secondly, it was not King but Standley, of course, who knew nothing about 43 in the middle of 36, when the assignment for Dakota was drawn up.

                        Well, thirdly, I (like many contemporaries) would not build such a Carolina. There were two versions of the 35K battleship: Nelson (then 21 knots and in line) and Richelieu (then no balanced 16"). Standley (more precisely, there was some kind of absolutely Soviet story with endless meetings and signing papers with the second secretary when the general was visiting Mongolia) chose not to choose and created the American Sevastopol: an LCR without speed, a battleship without armor. I would, of course, choose an LCR - the Americans already have battleships, but neither Congo nor Rinauna (neither Charles, nor Dunkirk, nor even Italian grandfathers under speed) no. The German version of the LKR, with the exchange of speed for armament. And after the first couple, I would not exchange speed for armor, but would try to rearm with the growth of VI according to the Alsace type.
                      23. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 22: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        I think highly of the Deutschlands.

                        But they will not build “Deutschlands”, but something in the manner of “Alaskas”...

                        Quote: Negro
                        So the beginning of '43 is a more than moderate period, unless of course you leave Guadalcanal deterministic.

                        If you don't mind, explain the depth of your thoughts... :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        Secondly, it was not King but Standley, of course, who knew nothing about 43 in the middle of 36, when the assignment for Dakota was drawn up.

                        Well, in the middle of 36 there was still hope to persuade Japan to cooperate...

                        Quote: Negro

                        Well, thirdly, I (like many contemporaries) would not build such a Carolina.

                        Well... It turned out this way because of the vicissitudes of the 2nd London: the American "King George" was redesigned into a battleship for a healthy person. Well, or almost healthy. :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        German version of the LKR, with the exchange of speed for weapons.

                        The Germans rather had the option of trading speed (to a lesser extent) and weapons (to a greater extent) for armor.

                        Quote: Negro
                        And after the first couple, I would not exchange speed for armor, but would try to rearm it with the growth of VI according to the Alsace type.

                        This is how the Iowa project came into being...
                      24. Negro
                        Negro 27 October 2023 23: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        But they will not build “Deutschlands”, but something in the manner of “Alaskas”...

                        I am more than satisfied with 4 super-KRTs with turrets from the Arkansas, unified with Yorktown, ready in 41. Besides, Yamato is not going anywhere, so 45K/16 in '38 is inevitable.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If you don't mind, explain the depth of your thoughts... :)

                        A few months change the situation specifically for Guadalcanal. Dakota barely had time for it; Iowa will no longer have time in a few months. But from 36 this was clearly impossible to take into account.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Well, in the middle of 36 there was still hope to persuade Japan to cooperate...

                        They knew that a 35K/3x3x16/30 knots battleship was impossible. This sad fact has nothing to do with Japan.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        It came about this way due to the vicissitudes of the 2nd London: the American "King George" was redesigned into a battleship for a healthy person

                        As I already noted, the difference between George and Carolina in particular is that that George has a 32-knot squadron, but this one does not, all of them have been converted into aircraft carriers.

                        At the same time, George is faster than Carolina and better armored. His main battery for flat trajectories is not that bad. So no, the generally accepted point of view that one Carolina laid in ’37 is better than 5 KD5 laid in the same year does not completely convince me.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Germans were more likely to have the option of exchanging speed (to a lesser extent) and weapons (to a greater extent) for armor.

                        This refers to the difference between LC and LKR. At what price was the speed of the LKR relative to the LK purchased: with weapons, armor, or size growth.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        This is how the Iowa project came into being...

                        Only before Iowa did they, on the contrary, make the more battleship-like battleship Dakota. I think I've already said this.
                      25. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 11: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        I am more than satisfied with 4 super-KRTs with turrets from the Arkansas, unified with Yorktown, ready in 41.

                        This will suit you. The Americans thought differently. :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        A few months change the situation specifically for Guadalcanal. Dakota barely had time for it; Iowa will no longer have time in a few months. But from 36 this was clearly impossible to take into account.

                        Our people are hypnotized by Guadalcanal, but in fact the campaign in the Solomon Islands lasted until the fall of '43...

                        Quote: Negro
                        They knew that a 35K/3x3x16/30 knots battleship was impossible. This sad fact has nothing to do with Japan.

                        I think this was known not only to the Japanese...

                        Quote: Negro
                        As I already noted, the difference between George and Carolina in particular is that that George has a 32-knot squadron, but this one does not, all of them have been converted into aircraft carriers.

                        If you are talking about "Rinauns" and "Hood", then no one planned to use them in squadron combat somehow "completely separately" from battleships...

                        Quote: Negro
                        At the same time, George is faster than Carolina and better armored.

                        Because the British got confused with this, exchanging the floor of Tower B for extra inches of the belt. The Americans decided “this will do”...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Only before Iowa did they, on the contrary, make the more battleship-like battleship Dakota.

                        So even in 41, the Americans believed that the Congo could not sail more than 26 knots.
                        Information about the B-64/65 battlecruisers has not yet reached the United States. :)
                        So why spend money?
                      26. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 11: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        This will suit you. Americans thought differently

                        We talked about whether the idea of ​​the LK 25K/12" was completely crazy from a shipbuilder's point of view. No, it wasn't. It was a little too arrogant politically on the part of the British, but I wouldn't call it crazy.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        the campaign in the Solomon Islands lasted until the fall of '43...

                        I'm talking about specific events - Santa Cruz and Kirishima - in which Dakota took part, but Iowa '43 could not.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I think this was known not only to the Japanese...

                        This was known right at the Washington conference.

                        Although I'm not entirely sure of this axiom. We know that an armor-balanced 16" LC fit into 33K in 27. Cramming 130 thousand hp vehicles into the same ship in 42 does not look like an unsolvable task, especially considering the 2K reserve in VI ( and if you close your eyes well, then 7K of reserve) and the possibility of an even more dense layout of the main battery and, accordingly, a Richelieu-type citadel.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If you are talking about "Rinauns" and "Hood", then no one planned them in squadron battle

                        You know that the American fleet of 40 was the only major fleet that did not have a high-speed wing, Capital Ships, at all. Neither Carolina, nor especially Dakota, solved this problem.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        “and so it will do”...

                        EXACTLY
                        I already wrote that I would generally give the third tower for 3 knots.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        So even in 41, the Americans believed that the Congo could not sail more than 26 knots.

                        Did the British deceive them about their own ship? Or do you mean American political instructors?

                        Yes, public incessant lies about myself and about the enemy is something that I am not going to forgive anyone.

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        So why spend money?

                        Khe khe.

                        It’s strange that for some reason no one remembers the arguments that the Americans really had for the third day.
                      27. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 12: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        We talked about whether the idea of ​​the LK 25K/12" was completely crazy from a shipbuilder's point of view. No, it wasn't. It was a little too arrogant politically on the part of the British, but I wouldn't call it crazy.

                        Where did I say that the idea is crazy? :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        We know that an armor-balanced 16" LK fit into 33K in '27.

                        Not so balanced: the British constantly had projects to re-armor/re-armor Nelsons.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Stuff cars with 130 thousand hp. the same ship in 42 does not look like an unsolvable task, especially considering the 2K reserve in VI

                        He doesn’t even look like he’s in his mid-30s, if you squint slightly at the Wagners’ shortcomings.

                        Quote: Negro
                        You know that the American fleet of 40 was the only major fleet that did not have a high-speed wing, Capital Ships, at all.

                        Are you so sure of its necessity?

                        Quote: Negro
                        EXACTLY
                        I already wrote that I would generally give the third tower for 3 knots.

                        You're better off, you live 100 years from now and your face is "irresponsible"... ;)

                        Quote: Negro
                        Did the British deceive them about their own ship? Or do you mean American political instructors?

                        Well, if political instructors work in the Department of War, then yes...


                        Quote: Negro
                        It’s strange that for some reason no one remembers the arguments that the Americans really had for the third day.

                        Which ones exactly?
                      28. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 13: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Where did I say

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        You must remember what nonsense they proposed when discussing the 2nd London project.

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        There were projects to rebook/rebook Nelsons.

                        The British itch is a separate issue. This energy would be transferred to a peaceful military channel.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        if you squint slightly at the shortcomings of the Wagners.

                        I am generally a supporter of diesel-electric ships. But Essex cars will also fit.

                        However, we managed to balance only 15" with sin in half." And then with incredible efforts.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Are you so sure of its necessity?

                        Yes. Chuichi Nagumo greetings from Harry Yarnell.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Better for you

                        By itself. But this is not my job either.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Well, if the Department of War employs political instructors

                        By itself. A bit in the style of Hercules' fight for the hotel: people were so busy with applied racism (and theft, of course) that they had no time for military intelligence. In particular, ask Vickers/read the Congo parameters crossed out in the Modelist-Constructor magazine and mentally change the 1913 cars to the 36 cars. Midnike once wrote about the activities of American military intelligence using examples.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Which ones exactly?

                        That my arguments about a year and a half delay due to American pests are complete nonsense. That the first pair of Iowas were laid down as soon as the Carolinas cleared the stocks in New York and Philadelphia. That the Dakotas are “bonus” ships that were given to new (in this business), non-battleship shipyards: Norfolk, Newport, Bettleham and NYS. That giving them the latest ships of unheard-of complexity would be an unnecessary risk, so the choice was not “4 Dakotas or 4 Iowas,” but “4 Dakotas or nothing.” What you need to do is not suck at the ships, whether they are good or bad, but look at them as a whole: the construction of 6 LCs at the same time was an element of the mobilization and militarization of American legal proceedings and shipbuilding.

                        Here, to put it mildly, there is something to argue about, but at least there is logic here, and not “it will do.”
                      29. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 13: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        Where did I say

                        Well... compared to 35000 tons and a 16" main battery, it looks strange, to put it mildly... :)
                        However, this is not the first time for the Britons: “Exeter” will not let you lie.

                        Quote: Negro
                        The British itch is a separate issue. This energy would be transferred to a peaceful military channel.

                        Yes, then yes... limes can do anything...

                        Quote: Negro
                        I am generally a supporter of diesel-electric ships.

                        And "blue electrical tape"... :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        Yes. Chuichi Nagumo greetings from Harry Yarnell.

                        What exactly are you talking about now?

                        Quote: Negro
                        By itself.

                        Well, how can I say... 26 knots in the 40th year (I looked in reference books for same-year olds) gives everything...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Here, to put it mildly, there is something to argue about, but at least there is logic here, and not “it will do.”

                        Here you also need to look at the sizes of the slipways so that it doesn’t turn out like the Germans and the French... :)
                      30. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 13: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Exeter won't let you lie

                        Exeter is quite an interesting ship, at least as an experiment.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        And "blue electrical tape"

                        There were turbo-electric ships of similar power (Lex), diesel-electric ships of slightly less power (commercial transatlantics), diesel battleships were laid down (N). A modular, scalable propulsion system in a major war would be a giant breakthrough.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        What exactly are you talking about now?

                        About formations of aircraft carriers, which would be good to accompany with something. However, the idea of ​​formations of aircraft carriers (and therefore that a high-speed battleship is an escort ship) is perhaps the main idea of ​​WWII at sea. It is much more important than any hardware details.

                        But you can move away from progressorism/post-knowledge and return to the realities of the 30s.

                        All new European battleships are faster than Carolina.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Here you also need to look at the sizes of the stocks

                        Midway got in.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        so that it doesn’t turn out like the Germans and the French

                        This is exactly my next argument. Why, strictly speaking, could not have been done like the Germans and the French?
                      31. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 14: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        Exeter is quite an interesting ship, at least as an experiment.

                        In general, he is, so to speak, the ancestor of “King George”.
                        With the help of this project, the British tried to “design” London through Geneva.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Turboelectric vehicles of similar power

                        What I mean is that in case of damage, shortening of the body is very possible.
                        Actually, for this reason (and also due to weight), the Germans abandoned the turbo-electric power plant on the Bismarcks.

                        Quote: Negro
                        About formations of aircraft carriers, which would be good to accompany with something.

                        Why didn’t you like the CRT?
                        We will keep the strong away from them, and we will attack the weak in droves.

                        Quote: Negro
                        However, the idea of ​​formations of aircraft carriers (and therefore that a high-speed battleship is an escort ship) is perhaps the main idea of ​​WWII at sea.

                        Only the meanings are different: the Japanese have stronger escorts, the Americans have air defense barges.

                        Quote: Negro
                        All new European battleships are faster than Carolina.

                        Because the Americans did not start sawing according to criteria other than artillery...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Midway got in.

                        I do not argue.
                        I’m talking about a set of questions, so to speak: in some places I fit in, in others I didn’t...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Why, strictly speaking, could not have been done like the Germans and the French?

                        It’s possible, but there are some difficulties... something might break off.
                      32. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 15: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        In general, he is, so to speak, the ancestor of "King George"

                        Didn't understand. Are we talking about SRT Exeter or what?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        What I mean is that in case of damage, shortening of the body is very possible.

                        There were no particular questions about American trains. What's worse, short circuit danger or steam boilers?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Why didn’t you like the CRT?

                        Baltimore is gone, New Orleans is weak.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Americans have air defense barges.

                        Cough cough. What will Comrade Lee tell us?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Because the Americans did not start sawing according to criteria other than artillery...

                        Is it good or bad? In my opinion, if you invent the “ideal battleship of the 40s”, then the main battery will be there according to the residual principle.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        In some places it fit, in others it didn’t...

                        I didn’t see the “Iowa was impossible to build” argument.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        It's possible, but there are some difficulties...

                        No ship - no problem.
                      33. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 16: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        Didn't understand. Are we talking about SRT Exeter or what?

                        About life... Or the unteachability of the Britons: "Exeter" was the first attempt to bring the "material basis" under an international treaty, as the "Georgians" later did.

                        Quote: Negro
                        There were no particular questions about American trains.

                        We need to dig up the Damage Report on "Lex", it seems like there was something there...

                        Quote: Negro
                        What's worse, short circuit danger or steam boilers?

                        Everything is bad, but we still need diesel engines with the required power...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Baltimore is gone, New Orleans is weak.

                        You are a typical loser... :)
                        Everything is wrong for you, even if it is an anachronism.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Cough cough. What will Comrade Lee tell us?

                        So it was Gatch, and not Lee, who included 32 (or 26?) aircraft in the combat report. :)
                        And again, like a grasshopper, you jump between periods: when you need to, you remember the night battle at Guadalcanal, when necessary, you lament how good a high-speed LC is as part of an aircraft carrier formation. :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        Is it good or bad? In my opinion, if you invent the “ideal battleship of the 40s”, then the main battery will be there according to the residual principle.

                        Oh again the misfit is talking about you... :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        I didn’t see the “Iowa was impossible to build” argument.

                        I’m not talking about that at all, but about the availability of free stocks of the required length.
                      34. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 16: 58
                        -2
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Or the inability to train the Britons: “Exeter” was the first attempt to bring the “material basis” under an international treaty, as the “Georgians” later did.

                        Yes, they got weird here.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        but we also need diesel engines with the required power...

                        Hood 24 boilers, Congo es built 36, Repalz 42. Diesels with diesel locomotive power did not present any complexity in the late 30s. Installing fittings for diesel engines is orders of magnitude easier than for boilers.

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        So it was Gatch, and not Lee, who included 32 (or 26?) aircraft in the combat report. :)

                        I'm talking about using battleships as battleships.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        when necessary, you lament how good a high-speed aircraft is as part of an aircraft carrier formation. :)

                        When I write
                        Quote: Negro
                        I would, of course, choose LKR

                        Quote: Negro
                        In general, I would give the third tower for 3 knots

                        Naturally, I also have my own knowledge of the course of the Pacific War. However, the chrono-aboriginals did not have such knowledge, but 30-knot capital spikes were built and by the 40s they had completely replaced (from construction programs) 20-knot ones (outside the USA).
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Everything is wrong for you, even if it is an anachronism.

                        Quote: Negro
                        But you can move away from progressorism/post-knowledge and return to the realities of the 30s.

                        All new European battleships are faster than Carolina.

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Oh again the hitman is talking about you

                        28cm Germans and 14" Englishmen listen to you attentively.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        availability of free stocks of the required length.

                        On the 207-meter Dakota, they found how to build a ship longer than the slipway in the late 30s, it has long been known.
                      35. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 17: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        Hood 24 boilers, Congo es built 36, Repalz 42. Diesels with diesel locomotive power did not present any complexity in the late 30s. Installing fittings for diesel engines is orders of magnitude easier than for boilers.

                        The Germans will not agree with you... Both the Deutschlands and the Plan Z ships have quite strange solutions caused specifically by diesel or combined power plants.

                        Quote: Negro
                        I'm talking about using battleships as battleships.

                        The Americans don’t have much of a problem with this: Guadalcanal and Surigao, I’ll leave the gouging of “Jean Bart” out of the equation...

                        Quote: Negro
                        but 30-knot capital ships were built and by the 40s they had completely replaced 20-knot ships outside the United States.

                        Likewise, the Carolinas were originally 30 knots, but then they were increased to 26-27 knots. The "Dakotas" were built so that they had a LC division with more or less similar performance characteristics.
                        I think if they had left the original project to the Carolinas, the Dakotas would have looked different.

                        Quote: Negro
                        28cm Germans and 14" Englishmen listen to you attentively.

                        What do they have to do with it?

                        Quote: Negro
                        On the 207-meter Dakota, they found how to build a ship longer than the slipway in the late 30s, it has long been known.

                        Well, that's understandable... :)
                      36. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 17: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Both the Deutschlands and the Plan Z ships have quite strange solutions caused by diesel or combined power plants.

                        Well, no one promised it would be so easy. By the way, I’m a fan of diesel-electric vehicles, and the Germans have a transmission. With electricity, it is much easier to collect power from many power units.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Americans have a hard time with this

                        Well, I couldn’t, I couldn’t.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Likewise, the Carolinas were originally 30 knots, but then they were increased to 26-27 knots

                        So I wrote in some detail that I wasn’t the only one itching to have 30-knot LCs.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I think if they had left the original project to the Carolinas, the Dakotas would have looked different.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Well, thirdly, I (like many contemporaries) would not build such a Carolina

                        Quote: Negro
                        And after the first couple I wouldn’t trade speed for armor.

                        Quote: Negro
                        great minds think alike

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        What do they have to do with it?

                        Not the widest main battery didn’t particularly bother them. And yes, I still insist that the best Civil Code is not to invent anything and get WWII-era turrets from the warehouse.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Well, that's understandable

                        That is, the argument about the slipways is not an argument.
                      37. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 17: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Negro
                        By the way, I’m a fan of diesel-electric vehicles, and the Germans have a transmission. With electricity, it is much easier to collect power from many power units.

                        Yes, there were more problems with the wiring of the supply ventilation and exhaust.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Not the widest main battery didn’t particularly bother them.

                        How do you say ...
                        It was probably in vain that the Germans, until September 39 and even after it, were rushing around with the idea of ​​sticking 38-cm guns into the Scharnhorsts. :)
                        As for the "kings" - the question is no less interesting. :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        That is, the argument about the slipways is not an argument.

                        And I didn’t claim that argument.
                        I believe that the “problem” is in the timing of development and the allocation of money.
                      38. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 18: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        wiring of supply ventilation and exhaust.

                        It is much more difficult to install boiler ventilation; air flow there is much higher.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        It was probably in vain that the Germans, until September 39 and even after it, were rushing around with the idea of ​​sticking 38-cm guns into the Scharnhorsts. :)
                        As for the "kings" - the question is no less interesting. :)

                        I have already written about improvement. And yes, Charlie with 3x2x15 is also “GK according to the residual principle.”

                        If I can’t fit normal armor, 30 knots and 9x16, then I would definitely start cutting with guns. But the Americans, on the contrary, only left the guns.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        "problem" in development time and allocation of money

                        We have already found out that the development of Iowa and Lions proceeded more or less in parallel, and the laying date differs by a year. As for the allocation of money, these ships were in the act of May 38: I think I mentioned this.
                      39. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 18: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        It is much more difficult to install boiler ventilation; air flow there is much higher.

                        How can I tell you... The Bismarck has one pipe, the LK type N has two...
                        And probably not because the designers were bored.

                        Quote: Negro
                        If I can’t fit normal armor, 30 knots and 9x16, then I would definitely start cutting with guns. But the Americans, on the contrary, only left the guns.

                        Again, you are the one who is so smart now.
                        I think I know what your ideal battleship looks like. :)


                        Quote: Negro
                        As for the allocation of money, these ships were in the act of May 38: I think I mentioned this.

                        This is not a direct allocation of money - it is permission to allocate money in the next budget year.
                        Relatively speaking, you were approved for a loan in May 38, but were given real money only in September of the following year.
                      40. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 19: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        How can I tell you... The Bismarck has one pipe, the LK type N has two...

                        The second is decorative.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        probably not because the designers were bored

                        But because N is twice as powerful.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I know what your ideal battleship looks like. :)

                        No. What my ideal battleship looks like has already been mentioned in this thread (well, not quite ideal, but the most reasonable one built). And from this disgrace you need to pick out all these guns, like cockroaches from a bun, and install missiles. Let's call "Kaptsov" with "Kentucky" crossed out.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        This is not a direct allocation of money - it is an authorization to allocate money in the next budget year.

                        I am more or less aware of American budget processes. Did Roosevelt never cut corners on such issues?
                      41. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 19: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        The second is decorative.

                        Did you look at the drawing or just for the sake of words? ;)

                        Quote: Negro
                        But because N is twice as powerful.

                        Well, not two, but a quarter...
                        But “Zeppelin” has almost two, but there was only one pipe, and it remains.
                        Because the boilers will be more compact.

                        Quote: Negro
                        No. What my ideal battleship looks like has already been mentioned in this thread (well, not quite ideal, but the most reasonable one built)

                        Remind me, if it's not too much trouble...

                        Quote: Negro
                        Did Roosevelt never cut corners on such issues?

                        What I can't say, I can't...
                      42. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 19: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Have you looked at the drawing?

                        No, but it's a good idea.
                        by a quarter

                        For some reason I remember that 250 thousand. Yes, you’re right, it’s too much.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Because the boilers will be more compact

                        This is both a plus and a minus. Since diesel engines do not explode compared to boilers, they can be protected not only with a belt, but also with redundancy. But yes, one of the discussed disadvantages of diesel engines is that they require a longer citadel.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Remind me, if it's not too much trouble...

                        Quote: Negro
                        So far there has been no conversation about Vanguard with the Unthinkable.

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        What I can't say, I can't...

                        Yes? But I remember some episodes. Most famously, there is some kind of garden hose that needs to be given to a neighbor, but there were much more colorful stories.
                      43. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 20: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        No, but it's a good idea.

                        laughing

                        Quote: Negro
                        Yes?

                        “Lend-Lease” is still somewhat different, as for me.
                        Such a good strategic maneuver.
                      44. Negro
                        Negro 29 October 2023 07: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        "Lend-Lease" is still somewhat different

                        Of course it's different. Funding a European war from the American budget while maintaining “neutrality” is not at all the same as rearranging ships in a construction program already approved by Congress. And the price of the issue is a couple of orders of magnitude less.
                      45. Victor Leningradets
                        Victor Leningradets 28 October 2023 09: 20
                        -1
                        Quote Negritenok: “The reason why Iowa is not also known: there is no project”
                        The project of the series of battleships ВВ61-ВВ66 was completed in January 1939.
                        And about 16" battleships: designing a battleship took British designers three months, including the sketch. Working documentation was received as the ship was being built.
                      46. Negro
                        Negro 28 October 2023 10: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Quote Negritenok: “The reason why Iowa is not also known: there is no project”
                        The project of the series of battleships ВВ61-ВВ66 was completed in January 1939

                        Hmm, you're right, I got excited. They write that Iowa was ready already in 38.

                        That is, we are returning to the original position: the Dakotas and the delay in the construction of Iowa by 1,5 years is a cut and an anti-American activity.
                      47. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 28 October 2023 11: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Negro
                        Hmm, you're right, I got excited. They write that Iowa was ready already in 38.

                        This is a little different: in May 38, the project was approved according to its final characteristics.
                        Then came the development of the general project, which was completed in January 39.
                        Next, the project was handed over to shipyard builders, who prepared construction documentation “for themselves.” This also takes time.
                        Then preparation of the slipway, procurement of materials.
                        For example (I don’t know what happened with the Iowas), by the time the main LC N was laid down, about 19000 tons of metal had been prepared at the V-F shipyard, 5000 tons were in operation. So it's not that simple.
                  2. Engineer
                    Engineer 25 October 2023 22: 01
                    +1
                    But to the credit of the Germans, we can say that they were the first to come up with the idea of ​​a “single battleship” (Ersatz Yorkie)
                    .
                    it turned out to be quite a prototype of future high-speed battleships.

                    Francesco Caracciolo felt hurt and hurt
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 22: 32
                      +2
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Francesco Caracciolo felt hurt and hurt

                      I think the story would be repeated here with the “Michigans”, who, due to the slowness of the Americans, became “dreadnoughts”... :)
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 25 October 2023 22: 38
                        0
                        I remind you of the original thesis
                        But to the credit of the Germans we can say that they are the first came up with an idea "single battleship" (Ersatz Yorkie).
                      2. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 22: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I remind you of the original thesis

                        In some ways you are right, but the “Karacholls” were not, so to speak, the fruit of the joint evolution of battleships and battlecruisers.
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 25 October 2023 23: 07
                        -1
                        Why does the idea of ​​a high-speed (single) battleship require a synthesis of the practical evolution of the LC and LKR? Why can’t we come to this with a system that is generally standard, but slightly faster than the average for the LK hospital, and with the next jump in displacement, shift the focus even more to speed, like the pasta lords?
                        By the way, the Germans scaled Bayern for Bismarck, not York. Also symbolic.
                        Not that I'm that interested in arguing about definitions. Just boring.
                        It’s funny that Skomorokhov used to write such articles and everyone kicked him in unison. But at least they broke spears in discussions.
                        A fairly well-known author handled the topic even worse, and the impetus for discussion disappeared altogether
                      4. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 23: 35
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        By the way, the Germans scaled Bayern for Bismarck, not York. Also symbolic.

                        Actually it's a legend... :)
                        I tried to find the original source once, but I couldn’t find it.
                      5. Comrade
                        Comrade 26 October 2023 04: 34
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Actually it's a legend... :)
                        I tried to find the original source once, but I couldn’t find it.

                        I don’t remember the name, but one German magazine of the Marine Arsenal level said that the Baden reservation system was taken as the basis for the design of the Bismarck reservation.
                      6. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 21: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Comrade
                        that the Baden reservation system was taken as a basis when designing the Bismarck reservation.

                        Well, the reservation scheme is not a conceptual ship.
                        It is +/- the same for all heavy Germans.
                      7. Victor Leningradets
                        Victor Leningradets 26 October 2023 06: 33
                        0
                        Of the legends, the most reliable is that to redesign the battleships "D" and "E" the Germans used developments from the Ersatz York. However, a comparison of the contours of the ships refutes this assumption.
                      8. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 07: 27
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        A fairly well-known author handled the topic even worse, and the impetus for discussion disappeared altogether

                        The last couple of years have been quite emotional, even for well-known anti-Soviet activists who are necessarily Russophobes. People are a little burned out.
                      9. Engineer
                        Engineer 26 October 2023 08: 35
                        +1
                        Even with the words Vanguard or the Unthinkable, nothing else ripples in your chest?
                      10. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 10: 07
                        -1
                        By noon there is no such courage.
                        Shocked us. We're scared
                        And slopes and ravines.
                        We shout “Easy, fools!”

                        Firstly, there is barely enough enthusiasm to discuss sex with minors on Twitter. What an unthinkable thing there is.

                        Secondly, young people don’t even know about this Unthinkable of yours.
                      11. Engineer
                        Engineer 26 October 2023 15: 43
                        0
                        The cool roller coaster took our Sivka down, it’s a pity
                      12. Negro
                        Negro 26 October 2023 21: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The cool roller coaster took our Sivka away

                        Cough cough (farts like an old man) (sweeps the sand) So far there has been no conversation about Vanguard with the Unthinkable.

                        Well, I never went to Jutland. The topic is large-scale and not particularly interesting to me: neither an anti-Soviet nor a Russophobe has much room to develop there.
            2. Negro
              Negro 25 October 2023 20: 54
              -4
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              To my surprise, “Baern” was appointed as such.

              And what are the options that existed in the 18th year? LCR, that is, Congo?
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Instead of type evolution, we got a merchant reduction.

              You will invent AUS again.
              1. Victor Leningradets
                Victor Leningradets 27 October 2023 06: 14
                0
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                To my surprise, “Baern” was appointed as such.

                And what are the options that existed in the 18th year? LCR, that is, Congo?

                Of the three battleships compared, only the American (I don’t remember which of the 14" battleships represented it) corresponded to the type of modern battleship of the era. Namely: the weapon system (fire density), armor (all or nothing) gave it the opportunity to effectively operate as part of a combat line. And the PTZ was completely out of competition. A small note: these are post-Jutland ships and they treat the First World War very lopsidedly.
                This is for battleships.
                But the same Skagerrak showed that Scheer’s battleships, just hanging in a long chain around the neck of the fleet, did not have time to get anywhere and their contribution to German achievements was very modest. If four Mackensens had been in the place of the 3rd squadron of battleships, then Beatty, and maybe Evan-Thomas, would have been remembered in St. Paul's Cathedral, and not celebrated as winners.
                1. Negro
                  Negro 27 October 2023 08: 29
                  +1
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Of the three battleships compared, only the American (I don’t remember which of the 14" battleships represented it) corresponded to the type of modern battleship of the era

                  If you remain within the framework of WWII, then Lisa, Bayern, New Mexico, Ise and Sevastopol. Let's leave the masterpiece of Russian Masters out of the picture; only the TF38 of the summer of 45 could compete with it - and even then with the involvement of Silverplate, it was better than both. But the rest are relatively equal and singling out Baern “on points” was a completely reasonable decision.

                  PS Oh yes, the Empresses were already there. Silverplate has no chance.
                2. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 27 October 2023 13: 59
                  0
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  But the same Skagerrak showed that Scheer’s battleships, just hanging in a long chain around the neck of the fleet, did not have time to get anywhere and their contribution to German achievements was very modest.

                  Who knows how things would have turned out (it’s clear that the Germans didn’t defeat the Britons - I’m talking about specifics), if Scheer hadn’t dragged Mauwe’s battleships with him...
            3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 21: 05
              +1
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              To my surprise, “Baern” was appointed as such.

              And why be surprised if they compared, as the name suggests, STANDARD, that is, 21-node LCs? Yes, their era was ending, but how does this interfere with comparison?
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              The main role began to be played by mobile linear forces - battlecruisers

              Which are not standard battleships and cannot be compared with them. If there were a criterion of “the most useful battleship,” that would be a different matter
      2. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 18: 40
        +3
        Quote: Alexey RA

        2600 tons of water received by the end of the battle, 5300 tons the next day, draft 14 m

        Still, we need to clarify a little: 5308 tons were accepted in total, as of 0700 at midnight on June 1.
      3. Negro
        Negro 25 October 2023 20: 23
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The “Queens” would have needed a couple more knots - and it would have been an ideal WWII battle cruiser.

        It was called "Hood". Although if only a couple, then the 15-inch Nagato.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 26 October 2023 10: 51
          0
          Quote: Negro
          It was called "Hood".

          Road spoon for dinner. © smile
          And the post-Jutland Hood, built before Jutland, is even more fantastic than the 27-knot Queens. The transition from the progressive development of "cats" to LCR with practically battleship armor without three drowned people - Well, the whole system needs to be changed.

          It’s easier to assume that based on the results pre-war war games it turned out that 25 knots was not enough for a high-speed squadron of the LK - and the “Queens” decided to simply add a little more speed (yes, I remember about the cubic dependence of power on speed - but you communist British designer! smile ).
          1. Victor Leningradets
            Victor Leningradets 27 October 2023 06: 30
            -2
            The road is a spoon for dinner. © smile
            And the post-Jutland Hood, built before Jutland, is even more fantastic than the 27-knot Queens.

            Alexey, forgive me, but you are denying the truly talented and enterprising British the ability to foresee the situation with the tactical use of a high-speed wing of the fleet. They could well have laid down the next series of 15" battleships with an improved reservation system (Royal Sovereign) and a battlecruiser power plant (Tiger). With the inevitable increase in dimensions and the similarity of the hull with the Renown (with a width along the vertical line/bulls of 29,6, 31,4/7,75 m and a length-to-width ratio according to the waterline of 27,5), the result is a ship with a speed of 100 knots at 000 hp and a normal displacement of 36 T.
            The construction of an actual squadron of standard R-class battleships is not justified by anything other than an attempt to please the crowd of shopkeepers hanging out in Parliament.
            1. Negro
              Negro 27 October 2023 08: 18
              +1
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              talented and proactive Englishmen in the ability to foresee the situation

              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              trying to please the crowd of shopkeepers hanging out in Parliament.

              Cough cough. If it weren't for the "crowd of shopkeepers", Jackie Fisher would not have built your half-shoes, but his own planing ferries. Without armor, with one cannon, but with a muzzle of half a meter. You forget that not only you, but also those directly involved in the events had brilliant ideas for new types of ships.
              1. Victor Leningradets
                Victor Leningradets 27 October 2023 09: 51
                0
                The program for the construction of "R" type battleships was adopted in 1913. John Fisher was not First Sea Lord for three years and another year before the next term, so shopkeepers are shopkeepers. Haberdashery, groceries, clothing items - that's their ceiling. And the fleet is a royal pastime.
              2. Victor Leningradets
                Victor Leningradets 27 October 2023 09: 52
                0
                The program for the construction of "R" type battleships was adopted in 1913. John Fisher has been out of the First Sea Lord for three years and another year before the next term, so shopkeepers are shopkeepers. Haberdashery, groceries, clothing items - that's their ceiling. And the fleet is a royal pastime.
      4. indeveral
        indeveral 26 October 2023 22: 33
        0
        The volume of Seydlitz flooding was still caused by a torpedo hit, and not by artillery fire. Although he suffered greatly from it too. In general, Seydlitz is an example of the structural security and survivability of both the ship and the training of the crew in the fight for survivability.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 23: 29
          0
          Quote: indeveral
          The volume of Seydlitz flooding was still caused by a torpedo hit, and not by artillery fire.

          When the anti-torpedo bulkhead is not breached?
  3. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 25 October 2023 07: 30
    +5
    Thanks to the author. The clearest, unsmeared presentation of Jutland that I have ever read. The Germans won on points, the British on consequences.
  4. bubalik
    bubalik 25 October 2023 07: 39
    +4
    ,,, but what about submarines? what

    Deployment scheme
    ,,taking into account those introduced on June 1, the Germans used 23 submarines.
    ,,, but the result was miserable. sad
    Except that on June 75, 5, the cruiser Hampshire was blown up and sank by mines laid by U1916 near the Orkney Islands. Lord Kitchener, with £10 million in gold bullion, died on board the Hampshire on his way to Russia. feel
  5. Frettaskyrandi
    Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 09: 00
    +9
    The cruiser Warspite was also badly damaged.

    Warspite is a Queen Elizabeth class battleship.
    He wasn't hurt that badly. In total - 15 hits of various calibers, 14 killed, 16 wounded.



    Damage to the six-inch turret.



    The hole from the projectile is 305 mm.

    For comparison, the consequences of the same shell hitting the destroyer Broke, which took part in Jutland.



    In the Battle of Jutland, not only people suffered.



    Vice Admiral Evan-Thomas's dog Jack, who was wounded on board the battleship Barham.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 18: 46
      +4
      Quote from Frettaskyrandi
      For comparison, the consequences of the same shell hitting the destroyer Broke, which took part in Jutland.

      Actually, these are the consequences of the Broke ramming the destroyer Sparrowhawk.
      1. Frettaskyrandi
        Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 21: 14
        +1
        Actually, these are the consequences of the Broke ramming the destroyer Sparrowhawk.

        You're right. I'm messing up something today.
    2. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 25 October 2023 20: 16
      +1
      Vice Admiral Evan-Thomas' dog Jack

      Good dog!
      You can immediately see a real servant!
      I heard that it was a British tradition to also have a cat on board.
  6. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 25 October 2023 09: 09
    +3
    The Battle of Jutland is reminiscent of Lee's victories over Grant, which ultimately led to the defeat of the South. War of attrition is a very subtle thing
  7. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 25 October 2023 09: 11
    +1
    The cost of the sunken ships was added to the amount of reparations imposed on Germany. The German ships lying at the bottom were gradually raised and sent for scrap.
    In fact, the German sailors did a disservice; it would have been better to leave these ships in the balance of the British. They would simply go broke on maintenance, taking into account their hefty fleet
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 October 2023 13: 20
      +4
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      In fact, the German sailors did a disservice; it would have been better to leave these ships in the balance of the British. They would simply go broke on maintenance, taking into account their hefty fleet

      They wouldn't go broke. The Germans would have been dealt with in the same way as with the overgrown fleet of Britain itself: most of the ships would first have been put into reserve, and then, after Washington, they would have been sent for dismantling.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 25 October 2023 14: 34
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        They wouldn't go broke. The Germans would have been dealt with in the same way as with the overgrown fleet of Britain itself: most of the ships would first have been put into reserve, and then, after Washington, they would have been sent for dismantling.
        In any case, reparations for Germany, based on the test, would be significantly less hi
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 October 2023 17: 05
          +2
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          In any case, reparations for Germany, based on the test, would be significantly less hi

          hi
          It's true. And the opportunity to earn is greater, since the auxiliary fleet can be converted into a commercial fleet - the Pacific Fleet of the 90s will not let you lie.
  8. know
    know 25 October 2023 09: 19
    +1
    It seems that the fleet is still effective only if it has overwhelming superiority over the enemy and the enemy lacks the means of effective anti-ship warfare. A striking example is the Russian Black Sea Fleet, which is now locked in Sevastopol and only repels constant attacks from cheap drones.
  9. Glory1974
    Glory1974 25 October 2023 09: 36
    +4
    As a result, the Germans sank their ships without a fight. It turns out that if you have ships, use them. If you lose, you will still lose them.
    The fleet had to be active all the time, justifying the money the country spent on it.
    1. know
      know 25 October 2023 13: 24
      +3
      Another example of such “woe-saving”: without major battles on the way back, Napoleon’s army “melted” in Russia. But after Maloyaroslavets he could have led his troops further to Kaluga or directly to St. Petersburg - it still wouldn’t have been worse.
    2. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 25 October 2023 13: 27
      0
      Quote: glory1974
      As a result, the Germans sank their ships without a fight. It turns out that if you have ships, use them. If you lose, you will still lose them.
      The question is controversial. And how many sailors would have died in an obviously losing battle without any benefit?!
  10. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 25 October 2023 09: 37
    +17
    An article for primary school students! request
    Translations of ship names are especially jarring! negative As much as I can repeat, the proper names of the ships are not translated. Or are all our historians the kind who undertake to write about things that are not worth writing about? “Lion” you see is “Lion”, but “Indefatileble” remains “Indefatileble” and not “Tireless” lol
    Next.
    The British again had numerical superiority - six battlecruisers (including one of the "Magnificent Cats" - "Lion") against five.

    What, out of six ships there was only one Lion-class cruiser? In general, there were 4 so-called “magnificent cats” - “Lyon”, “Princess Royal”, “Queen Mary” and “Tiger”. The first two are completely of the same type, the Queen Mary had a larger displacement and differences in the details of the armor and armament, but the Tiger was more magnificent than the others. The artillery was better located, the mine caliber was increased, the armor was improved, and besides, it had more speed. Even outwardly different. Author, articles of this kind are read not only by children, but also by more knowledgeable people.
    There are a lot of shortcomings in the description of the battle itself. It is clear that in a certain volume it is impossible to describe everything you want, but then it would be worth approaching it in more detail - dividing it, for example, into a couple of parts, as more scrupulous authors do on VO who want to convey their vision.
    The key detail of the “run to the south” was not indicated, when Beatty rushed in pursuit, and the “hat” Evan-Thomas with his battleships and lower speed pulled up with a turn much later, when Hipper’s cruisers were clearing out the ranks of “magnificent cats”. And when the same Evan-Thomas began to emerge in a column from under the fire of Scheer’s emerging battleships, which led to heavy damage to the Warspite, which was heading to the base with the same poor fellow Warrior, which sank due to excitement.
    One of the key factors that indirectly influenced a number of skirmishes was not analyzed - the weather. For the battle essentially came down to a battle between those who saw each other.
    There is no justification for Scheer’s decision to break home through the rear of the British fleet, which led to a night battle. And what made Hood, with the weakest battlecruisers of the Invincible class, turn on Hipper, which led to the death of this same Invincible.
    In general, many aspects of fleet management on both sides have been missed. But, as the classic said, it is not ships that fight, but people.
    The article is rather intended to fill the vacuum in VO on maritime topics. It was not possible, there are more detailed descriptions of much less significant battles. Minus.
    Personally, my opinion hi
    1. know
      know 25 October 2023 09: 41
      -11
      Well, a minus for you - from me personally. For inappropriate arrogance and an attempt to be clever.
      1. Rakovor
        Rakovor 25 October 2023 10: 23
        +10
        Rurikovich wrote everything to the point, but you’re just adding up.
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 10: 26
        +11
        Quote: vet
        For inappropriate arrogance and an attempt to be clever.

        This is not an attempt to be clever, but a very specific description of the mistakes made in the article. There are many of them, unfortunately. It is clear that in principle Jutland does not fit into the format of one article, but if we were to write a general overview article, then it would be quite possible to do without serious mistakes, such as calling the "Warspite" a cruiser.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 25 October 2023 10: 30
          +5
          Greetings, dear namesake drinks hi
          To be honest, it’s already boring without your cycles Yes ...
          1. ban
            ban 25 October 2023 10: 53
            +1
            Join.
            Message text is too short
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 11: 03
            +13
            Good afternoon! hi
            There will be, there will be a cycle, absolutely and without fail :))) Dedicated to the durability of Harvey and Krupp armor, armor-piercing shells and their caps. I have collected a very good base here... But the point is that this series cannot be posted until I finish it, because some things that I discover for myself while working on the material change my understanding of what I wrote earlier, and I constantly correct seemingly ready-made articles. In principle, I am close to the final, but I won’t give specific dates yet.
            1. ban
              ban 25 October 2023 11: 14
              +4
              Andrey, welcome!

              We're waiting, sir. And then you see for yourself
            2. 27091965
              27091965 25 October 2023 14: 02
              +2
              Good afternoon.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Dedicated to the durability of Harvey and Krupp armor, armor-piercing shells and their caps.

              It will be interesting to read, but the immediate question is, will the types of armor preceding Harvey and Krupp be affected?
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 14: 10
                +6
                Quote: 27091965i
                It will be interesting to read, but the immediate question is, will the types of armor preceding Harvey and Krupp be affected?

                Good afternoon, dear Igor! No, they won’t, I’ll just grab some steel-nickel plates that are not reinforced on the surface. I haven’t collected materials on them, and, frankly speaking, I have cemented armor for my eyes, I’ve been fiddling with it for a month :)))))
            3. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 25 October 2023 19: 55
              0
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              In principle, I’m close to the final, but I won’t give specific dates yet

              Super! Yes I will wait with impatience good drinks hi
            4. indeveral
              indeveral 26 October 2023 22: 59
              0
              Andrey, we are really, really looking forward to it! I read your articles on the fleet avidly.
      3. Frettaskyrandi
        Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 12: 37
        +10
        Well, a minus for you - from me personally. For inappropriate arrogance and an attempt to be clever.

        And you get a minus from me - for stupidity.
        Or has the degradation of the site’s audience already reached the point where constructive criticism of publications has come to be called an attempt to be clever?
    2. Cartalon
      Cartalon 25 October 2023 10: 21
      +2
      And most importantly, room 40 and Jellico’s inability to understand what she is telling him are not mentioned))
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 25 October 2023 20: 04
        +2
        Quote: Cartalon
        And most importantly, room 40 and Jellico’s inability to understand what she is telling him are not mentioned))

        To some extent, Jellicoe can be understood - he was guided by what he saw himself and what the scouts directly assigned to him told him. Respect to him that he made the right decision during the initial deployment and Beatty brought Scheer right under the guns of the Grand Fleet. And here is the radio, and even with the supposed delay in decryption... After the fact, you can criticize as you want, We weren’t standing on the bridge " Iron Duke" at that moment wink hi
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon 26 October 2023 09: 02
          -1
          The main complaint against Jellicoe is that he thought that he could not take risks, but he could and should have taken risks.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 October 2023 13: 38
      +7
      Quote: Rurikovich
      The key detail of the “run to the south” was not indicated, when Beatty rushed in pursuit, and the “hat” Evan-Thomas with his battleships and lower speed pulled up with a turn much later, when Hipper’s cruisers were clearing out the ranks of “magnificent cats”.

      And the key detail of the end of the battle is when Jerram’s 2nd squadron discovered the retreating German forces, but did not attack them and moved on, maintaining the line.
      Sir, if you now step out of the column and turn towards them, your name will become as famous as Nelson's.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 25 October 2023 19: 54
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        but did not attack them and moved on, maintaining the line.

        hi Yes, Jutland is a battle that doesn’t deserve a short review article. I already skimmed from memory due to lack of time. smile hi
    4. Comrade
      Comrade 26 October 2023 04: 41
      +1
      Quote: Rurikovich
      An article for primary school students!

      What is true is true.
      Suitable for the "Book of Future Admirals", but no more.
      I always read Ryzhov’s articles with great pleasure. They are well-researched, easy to understand, and one feels that the author is quite competent.
      But in this case, he touched on a topic that he has little understanding of, despite the fact that there are still people here who can notice it.
  11. kor1vet1974
    kor1vet1974 25 October 2023 09: 55
    +3
    The grandiose naval battle only led to heavy losses and had virtually no effect on the situation on the fronts.
    In the Battle of Jutland, “The ships maneuvered, maneuvered, but did not maneuver” (c). smile
  12. Grossvater
    Grossvater 25 October 2023 10: 11
    +2
    Quote from Frettaskyrandi
    Damage to the six-inch turret.

    Wow! What, did Lizavet have 6" guns in her turrets?
    1. Frettaskyrandi
      Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 11: 39
      +1
      Wow! What, did Lizavet have 6" guns in her turrets?

      Didn't you know?
      1. Frettaskyrandi
        Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 12: 32
        +1
        Wow! What, did Lizavet have 6" guns in her turrets?

        The Queen Elizabeth-class battleships had two of the sixteen 152 mm guns located in turrets located on the upper deck behind the second funnel.



        The photo shows the battleship Barham Queen Elizabeth-class from the starboard side.



        This is a close-up fragment of the same photo. The tower is highlighted with a square.
        1. ban
          ban 25 October 2023 12: 45
          +9
          This is not a tower. Deck installation covered with a shield
          1. Frettaskyrandi
            Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 12: 56
            +8
            This is not a tower. Deck installation covered with a shield

            Correct point. I agree, I was wrong.
        2. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 25 October 2023 21: 57
          +3
          Quote from Frettaskyrandi
          The tower is highlighted with a square.

          In fact, the original project included 16 - 152mm guns, but the lead "Lizzie" was built on it. But it turned out that especially the aft battery, located close to the waterline, is filled with water (as is the main battery on the upper deck, although to a lesser extent). Therefore, all subsequent ships no longer had stern 4-152mm guns. To replace them, they placed 2 guns on the forecastle deck of the boats (one on each side). This is what is indicated in the photo. On the Queen Elizabeth, the aft battery was dismantled in 15. But in 16, these two guns were abandoned, and therefore, by the end of the war, all five Queen Elizabeth-class battleships were armed with 12 - 152mm guns in the battery on the upper deck.
          The following "Revenges" initially had 14 6" caliber guns - 12 in the battery on the upper deck (but moved more aft for less flooding) and one gun on the forecastle deck on either side of the funnel.
          Therefore, the photos shown show a time somewhere around 15-16, when these deck installations were still present. Wave deflectors are also noticeable opposite the bow ports.
  13. ban
    ban 25 October 2023 10: 41
    +4
    The British fleet included those built in 1910–1914. 12 battleships, which are now often called super-dreadnoughts: 4 Orion class, 4 King George V class and 4 Iron Duke class


    "Odeishes" to Jutland apparently resurrected wassat

    There were only three of them: Lion (“Lion”, not the French city), Princess Royal, Queen Mary


    The newest and strongest "Tiger" apparently did not belong to cats

    On the eve of the First World War, they became the largest and fastest cruisers, which also received 343 mm guns. But their reservation turned out to be insufficient.


    The author apparently hasn’t heard of “Congo”.

    The 229 mm armor turned out to be insufficient, but our Sevastopols had excellent 225 mm armor.

    In general, you don’t have to read further, I agree with Rurikovich
    1. know
      know 25 October 2023 10: 53
      -2
      you don't have to read

      Excuse me, is someone forcing you? I think there are “thick serious” magazines. And there is “Military Review” - a popular science Internet resource, more aimed at “dummies” (like me). And it is clear that a “light” version is being given - a short, condensed summary, written in such a way that non-professionals, people far from the “mountain heights” of historical science, get some idea of ​​the events. And when they begin to speak intelligently, nitpicking little things, I would like to say immortal aphorisms: “he who does nothing is guaranteed not to make mistakes” and “those who know how to do anything do them, those who don’t know how to do things teach.” Write another article, no one forbids you - so that it is not rejected for publication, and so that 90% of local readers do not stop reading it in the middle. And I think it’s quite difficult to write like this (so that they don’t stop reading and leave the site). Well, let’s discuss your article and express our opinion: did it work - no?
      1. ban
        ban 25 October 2023 11: 10
        +5
        The author did not even bother to inquire about the composition of the fleets during the process of writing his copy-paste.
        Read for your health laughing
        1. know
          know 25 October 2023 11: 16
          -6
          It's a shame to be jealous. Aren't you jealous? Write an article and post it here for public discussion. We wait!!! Andrey is about to write, and, of course, he will write. And you? You can not? Go through the forest.
          1. Rakovor
            Rakovor 25 October 2023 11: 41
            +6
            Yes, he can’t, and I can’t, so we don’t write, but the author can’t, but he writes, do you catch the difference with your gray matter?
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 11: 22
        +8
        Quote: vet
        And it’s clear that a “light” version is being given.”

        It’s clear that it’s lightweight, why pile up error on error? Still, if you undertake to write, you need some level of familiarity with the topic. And the author, alas, has many mistakes, where there are not errors, there are understatements. For example,
        The British cruiser Tiger was also seriously damaged, receiving 9 hits from 280-mm Moltke shells.

        Indeed, according to domestic sources, it turns out that the Tiger was hit by 9 shells from the Moltke. But - this is only with the Moltke, not counting other ships. And so he was hit by from 10 (according to Puzyrevsky) to 11 such shells, and if you read the British, then 14 shells of 11-dm caliber.
        Quote: vet
        And when they start talking smartly, nitpicking over little things, I want to say the immortal aphorisms: “he who does nothing is guaranteed not to make mistakes” and “those who know how, do it; those who don’t know how, teach.” Write another article, no one is stopping you

        Well, I have 387 published articles on this resource, don’t worry, that’s why I wrote it. I personally always thank readers for identifying errors in my articles and often give refutations to myself :)))
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 11: 14
      +7
      Quote: ban
      The 229 mm armor turned out to be insufficient, but our Sevastopols had excellent 225 mm armor.

      To be fair, the article is not about Sevastopol, why remember them in vain? :) And to answer your question, Sevastopol had 225 mm armor protecting the side opposite the cellars of all 4 main battery towers. In cats, the armored belt opposite the two bow turrets had 127-152 mm protection, and the aft turret had 102-127 mm protection. The “fierce tigers” have 127 mm both here and there.
      1. ban
        ban 25 October 2023 11: 17
        0
        Yes, I know, it’s just that mantras about poorly armored cats cause cognitive dissonance for me. laughing
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 October 2023 11: 27
          +4
          Quote: ban
          It’s just that mantras about poorly armored cats cause cognitive dissonance for me

          laughing Understand:))))
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 October 2023 13: 51
      +4
      Quote: ban
      The 229 mm armor turned out to be insufficient, but our Sevastopols had excellent 225 mm armor.

      Well... in addition to thickness, the armoring scheme is also important. Pomnitsa, "Retvizan" and "Pobeda" also had the same armor belt - the same 229 mm. But “Persvetychs” are constantly branded as “weakly protected”, but there are no such complaints about “Retvizan”. smile
      But there was also “Potemkin” with the same belt.
      1. ban
        ban 25 October 2023 14: 15
        0
        This is a no brainer.
        Here we are talking about something else - because of one golden bullet, far-reaching and unsupported conclusions are drawn.
        If the Seydlitz had exploded at the Dogger Bank, what would we be reading now - the German LKRs were not sufficiently armored?
        And if you compare the condition of the surviving English and German battlecruisers after Jutland, then this is exactly what happens - after plus or minus a dozen hits from heavy shells, the British generally retained their combat capability, the Germans were out of action for a long time.
        Well, something like this
      2. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 25 October 2023 18: 50
        +5
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Pomnitsa, "Retvizan" and "Pobeda" also had the same armor belt - the same 229 mm. But “Persvetychs” are constantly branded as “weakly protected”, but there are no such complaints about “Retvizan”. smile

        I also remember that in this same discussion the relative armoring area of ​​ships is always mentioned and the quality of Harvey’s and Krupp’s armor is compared... wassat
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 26 October 2023 10: 55
          0
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          and the quality of Harvey's and Krupp's armor is compared... wassat

          And it’s not for nothing that I chose “Victory” from the conventional trinity of “Peresvetychs”. wink
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 26 October 2023 18: 13
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And it’s not for nothing that I chose “Victory” from the conventional trinity of “Peresvetychs”.

            The placement of the armor hasn't changed at all... :)
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 October 2023 08: 23
              +1
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              The placement of the armor hasn't changed at all... :)

              This is what Alexey writes:
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Well... in addition to thickness, the armoring scheme is also important.
  14. belost79
    belost79 25 October 2023 13: 10
    +1
    Now imagine that it was not the British fleet that fought the German one, but the Russian one (with the same composition). There would still be cries that these stupid Russians missed a great opportunity to destroy the Kaiser's fleet. But due to their unprofessionalism and feeble-mindedness, they also managed to suffer great losses. And it’s okay, the British fleet completed its task.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 25 October 2023 15: 10
      +2
      But isn’t it a cry among the British that Jellicoe missed the opportunity to destroy the Kaiser’s fleet?
  15. Frettaskyrandi
    Frettaskyrandi 25 October 2023 13: 32
    +3
    The title of the article was promising, but the content clearly illustrates that such topics are categorically contraindicated for the author. The presentation of events that require knowledge of at least the basics of the theory and practice of armed warfare at sea and certain special knowledge of a technical nature is not fiction - the author’s specialty. It’s better to continue to crush Marina Mnishek.
  16. ban
    ban 25 October 2023 14: 30
    +2

    A good illustration of the results of Jutland
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 October 2023 17: 14
      +3
      Quote: ban
      A good illustration of the results of Jutland

      The best illustration of the results of Jutland is the post-Jutland actions of the HZF upon receiving information about the GF going to sea. smile
  17. bone1
    bone1 25 October 2023 18: 35
    -4
    “Battle” is said loudly - they collided, got scared and ran away laughing
    1. S.Z.
      S.Z. 26 October 2023 08: 25
      +1
      IMHO, naval battles usually end like this. Trafalgar and Tsushima are exceptions when one of the opponents ceases to exist as an organized force, not for a while, but forever.
      Anyone who thinks he's done enough just runs away and usually succeeds.
  18. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 26 October 2023 06: 46
    0
    Camarads!
    There is a question, was the thickness of the armor of Russian dreadnoughts really carried out in metric units?
    225 mm; 262,5 mm; 237,5 mm - and this is on old equipment? It is not without reason that in departmental correspondence, inch values ​​are often used, and the belt of “Empress Maria” and “Ishmael” is mentioned as 267 mm and 241 mm.
    Although in the original drawings everything is fine in millimeters of 262,5 mm and 237,5 mm.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 26 October 2023 08: 41
      +2
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      There is a question, was the thickness of the armor of Russian dreadnoughts really carried out in metric units?

      Victor, the armor thicknesses of Russian dreadnoughts were, of course, not measured in metric units.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      225 mm; 262,5 mm; 237,5 mm - and this is on old equipment?

      What’s the problem if the “calibration” of the tool was also inch? :)))
  19. know
    know 26 October 2023 09: 10
    0
    I have 387 published articles on this resource

    Andrey, you are the author and there are no complaints against you. But, if you allow me, I’ll express my opinion, and then put a minus if you want.
    Your articles are just full of technical details. It is clear that you want to “shine off” and receive applause from a dozen specialists. But who do you think 99% of VO readers are? People who are simply interested in history. Where do they read articles? On the subway or train on the way to work, in line at the clinic, during the lunch break, lying in bed before bed. Are they interested in the technical characteristics of the guns or the thickness of the armor? Never mind, don’t take the exam, they’ll forget in 5 minutes. They don’t write comments, and you don’t know their opinion, but you can easily guess. What is an advantage of a scientific article is a disadvantage of a popular science article. If you give less technical, highly specialized aspects and more, as Ban put it, “fiction,” 99% of VO readers will only be grateful to you. Because unnecessary details on this resource only burden the article and make it difficult to read. That is, there is no need to confuse a dissertation work and an article for the general public.
    This is my personal opinion. If you don't like it, downvote it, but still think about it.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 26 October 2023 11: 22
      +5
      Quote: vet
      This is my personal opinion. If you don't like it, downvote it, but still think about it.

      Alexey, your point of view is absolutely clear to me. And I’m not going to put any minuses - in this case there is constructive criticism, and I’m never against it - even if I don’t agree with it.
      The answer to the question you raised is very simple - after all, I see in the publication the number of views of each of my articles.
      And here are the statistics - my (very highly specialized, you are right) articles on shooting methods and materiel in the Battle of Tsushima have from 21 to 410 views per article. “On the durability of the protection of battleships of the Sevastopol type in relation to 72-mm and 146-mm German shells” (just solid numbers) - 283 views. "Beautiful losers. Diana-class cruisers" - a total of 305 views. And even the essentially extremely narrow material, “On the power of Russian “lightweight” 120-mm shells from the Russo-Japanese War,” received 356 views.
      The article about the reasons for the death of "Oslyabi" has more than 100 thousand views, and the second article of that short cycle has as many as 182.
      In other words, my materials are of interest not to
      Quote: vet
      a dozen specialists

      They are of interest to a wider circle of readers.
      Quote: vet
      Are they interested in the technical characteristics of the guns or the thickness of the armor? Never mind, don’t take the exam, they’ll forget in 5 minutes.

      You see, many people will do this - after running along the diagonal of the calculations, and seeing the logic present in them, they understand why I make certain conclusions and begin to consider them reasonable, that is, having the right to exist along with official or generally accepted points views with which I often argue.
      I hope I answered the question you asked. And yes, I do not claim to be 100% true, but I still consider my point of view to be correct.
      1. know
        know 27 October 2023 09: 10
        +2
        Andrey, I am completely satisfied with your answer, thank you for your adequacy, which many here lack. But let me make one note:
        articles on shooting methods and equipment in the Battle of Tsushima have from 21 to 410 views per article

        These are “discoveries” of these articles, not reading them. How many people do you think opened the article, faced with unnecessary numbers, disappointed, and closed the article without reading to the end? I'm afraid the percentage will not be small.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 October 2023 15: 01
          +1
          Quote: vet
          But let me make one remark

          No problem
          Quote: vet
          These are “discoveries” of these articles, not reading them.

          You are absolutely right.
          Quote: vet
          How many people do you think opened the article, faced with unnecessary numbers, disappointed, and closed the article without reading to the end?

          That's right. Someone opened and closed it, someone took part in the discussion by visiting the article several times, etc. And someone actually looks at my articles not on the main page, but through my profile. But still, the number of people interested is very large, at least we are talking about thousands of people. At the same time, your thesis about more people being ready to read “light” naval articles - can we confirm it? After all, the number of views of such articles should be more than mine.
          For example, this review article was viewed just over 11 thousand times. as of 27.10.2023/150/XNUMX. Don’t get me wrong, we are not talking about the comparative length of primary male sexual characteristics, but are there many review articles on the history of the fleet on the resource that have views of XNUMX thousand or more?
    2. S.Z.
      S.Z. 27 October 2023 08: 29
      0
      I’m probably in the minority - I’m just interested in “technical details”, not general information. General information is present in the same Wikipedia, but the devil is in the details. It takes a long time to dig out the details on your own, and you still have to look for sources, but here they are in ready-made form, from people who deserve respect, experts.

      VO is a specialized forum, and specialization is in the details, IMHO.
      1. know
        know 27 October 2023 09: 21
        +1
        "technical details" are interesting, not general information. General information is present in the same Wikipedia

        Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Famous story: Einstein was asked to answer tests for students. He answered only the part where it was necessary to draw some conclusions. Opposite the others, where some numbers were needed in the answers, I made notes: “The answer is in the textbook.”
        Figures and technical specifications can always be found in reference books and encyclopedias - if you have the desire (which many non-professionals don’t have, they don’t need it). And try to write in such a way that even non-professionals will read with interest and pleasure. And they would receive information that will not fly out of your head in 5 minutes - as is the case with numbers.
  20. S.Z.
    S.Z. 27 October 2023 11: 14
    0
    Quote: vet
    Numbers and technical specifications can always be found in reference books and encyclopedias

    A general description is even easier and much faster to find. Details are needed for those who already know the general description. IMHO, after all, VO is a specialized site.
    But this is not the main thing, people are different and know differently, all sorts of articles are needed, both general and detailed.

    You cannot allow inaccuracies in details if we are talking about history, otherwise we are not talking about history. If you don’t know history, don’t write about history, even if it’s terribly interesting to read.
  21. Tank destroyerSU-100
    Tank destroyerSU-100 30 October 2023 18: 37
    -1
    A good summary of the battle. What I would like to note is the absence of unnecessary small details that many authors are guilty of when describing the battle. In a monograph intended for specialists, of course, all these details are appropriate, what course the ships were traveling at 14.30, and what course at 15.45, and so on.
    But this kind of presentation, when the main events are described, it is indicated who sank whom, when and how, but without minute detail, which side of who was who, which torpedo tube fired and which did not, is very readable.