About Russians and Slavs from the perspective of ancient history

180
About Russians and Slavs from the perspective of ancient history

“...This war, however, did not remain without truly beneficial consequences. She showed us that it was not any European party that hated us, but, on the contrary, that, whatever the interests that divide Europe, they are all united in a common hostile feeling towards Russia... That common (absorbing all differences of parties and interests) hatred of Russia, which Europe revealed in word and deed, has finally begun to open our eyes.” (N. Ya. Danilevsky, 1871).

foreword


Superficial knowledge stories of one’s own country, coupled with its constant rewriting (reinterpretation) to suit the interests of the ruling elite, has been a traditional feature of our society since the time of Rurik Rostislavich. Therefore, most people, not having true knowledge of history, perceive the events currently taking place in the country with surprise, although their occurrence is quite logical and can easily be explained (and predictable) with the help of historical knowledge, because history tends to repeat itself.



The current critical state of relations between the states of the Russian Federation and Ukraine, considered (and indeed were) before the collapse of the USSR fraternal republics of the RSFSR and Ukrainian SSR, causes many people who proudly call themselves Soviet officers acute pain and a strong need to speak out - to publicly express their attitude to reality.

I have no desire to discuss the military and political components of the speeches of those speaking out, but I want to try to highlight another important aspect of their speeches, namely the question of who is fighting with whom: Russians with Russians; Russians with Ukrainians; Ukrainians and Muscovites? And other verbal options that describe reality from the perspective of graduates of the same military schools, who now find themselves on opposite sides of the front line.

I will immediately note that the names of nationalities I cited above have now almost completely lost their original historical meaning, and the dispute regarding their true meaning represents a debate about the correct interpretation of various literary (and folk) words and expressions. That is, a conversation about the correctness of various conventions.

Unfortunately, people at all times have neglected not only the study of the history of their country and their own nationality, but even the understanding of their own life experience.

And the efforts of many Russian philosophers and historians, who repeatedly pointed out the importance of knowledge and understanding of history for subsequent generations, were in vain:

“And in general, we lived and continue to live only in order to serve as some important lesson for distant generations who will be able to understand it...” (P. Chaadaev 1828–1830).

“History is the result of human experience; We can forget experiences only when we no longer need them, meanwhile, even now, at every step we come across facts that are incomprehensible to us from a modern point of view, but can only be explained by history” (E.P. Savelyev, beginning of the XNUMXth century).

Unfortunately, these wise sayings went unnoticed and did not take root in the minds of subsequent generations; descendants could not or did not want to understand the lessons of history. And now, when conducting combat operations, we are stepping on the same rake that not only our great-grandfathers or great-great-grandfathers stepped on, but also our grandfathers, fathers, and ourselves (if you remember Afghanistan or two Chechen ones).

Over the past 15 years, I have devoted a lot of time to studying the history of the Great Patriotic War. And now, comparing the events taking place on the fronts with what happened then, I am once again convinced of the correctness of my conclusion: those who know the past well have the opportunity to predict the future with acceptable accuracy, because the future is the logical conclusion of the past, and sometimes even its almost complete repetition.

And vice versa: those who do not know their past usually greet the present with great surprise.

Comrade officers, I apologize, in the heat of my speech I deviated from the topic that I intended to cover for you.

So.

Who are the Rus, Slavs and what is Kievan Rus?


After listening to the video speeches of some of our honored officers, I noticed that many speakers do not know well enough the true meaning of the historical terms given in the title of this section. But they are happy to use them in their speeches and journalism.

And there is nothing shameful here, because even most professional historians are ignorant on this issue.

I am telling you top secret (in the world of historians) information: a real historian knows perfectly only some narrow historical question, for example, what were the funeral customs of the ancient Slavs living in Novgorod and its environs in the 1941th–XNUMXth centuries. And in some other narrow historical question (for example, how the battles near Volokolamsk and Istra actually took place in the second half of November XNUMX), this historian will be competent to the same extent as an ordinary person using easily accessible (and sometimes very dubious) sources .

I return to the question I outlined in the section title.

Let me make a reservation right away: there is no generally accepted (considered by everyone to be correct) answer to these questions, as they say in such cases: regarding the named concepts (terms), historians have separate opinions, which often do not coincide with each other.

Or to put it another way: these questions are debatable, because due to the scarcity of ancient historical documents, they move from a purely historical plane to an ethnological and even philosophical plane.

And, as I noted above, discussions often descend into disputes about the correct interpretation of the meanings of individual words or phrases used by historians as terms.

Therefore, I do not insist on accepting what is stated below as the absolute truth, but I would like to note that the information I have provided is not a figment of my imagination - at the end of the essay I will indicate a list of historical works that I used.

On the origin of the words “Russian” and “Slav”


On the long path of development of earthly civilization, there was no other people who would have left their mark on history under so many names (certainly more than fifty). How did this happen?

The explanation is simple. Any people always goes down in history under two types of names:

1) by which he calls himself;

2) which are assigned to him by the surrounding peoples (with whom he fights, or neighbors or trades), usually choosing a nickname for him from their own language.

Our ancestors called themselves two names: Russ (Rusin) and Slav.

Which of the names is more ancient and how did they arise?

Russ


According to some Russian historians of the XNUMXth century, “Rossy” and “Russy” are the most ancient generic name of all Russian tribes.

In various eras, the Russians appeared on the historical stage under numerous names, for example: Veneds, Scythians, Massagetae, Antes, Agofirs, Sarmatians, Saki, Skolots, Getae, Alans, Roksolans, Budins, Yaksamatas, Trojans, Rugs, Ruzhans (Russian farmers) . All these names were given by the surrounding peoples to numerous Russian tribes living in various eras in vast territories from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, and from the Caspian Sea to Central Asia and the Middle East, and even to Egypt.

Our ancestors themselves usually called themselves by their own names: Rossy, Russy, Rose, Ruzy, Resy, Ras, Rsi, Rsa, Rsha, Race, Rosha, Razy, Razen, Roksy. Or sometimes complex, for example, Aorsi or Etruscans (Getruscans).

There is a version that the name “Ross” is formed from the word “rsa” - water, river. Other ancient words related to water are derived from it: “dew”, “mermaid” and “bed”. Our ancestors always tried to establish their settlements near rivers or lakes. Which is easily explained: rivers were not only natural reserves of water and food (fish and waterfowl).

In ancient times, they also served as natural transport arteries connecting Russian settlements widely scattered across the continent. Even in the XNUMXth–XNUMXth centuries, the territory inhabited by Russian tribes, stretching from Novgorod to Kiev, was still dense impenetrable forests and swamps, and it was possible to get from settlement to settlement only by moving along the rivers: in the summer by boats, and in the winter by sleigh.

It was for these reasons that the ancient Russians settled near rivers. In many places where they once lived, the ancient names of rivers have been preserved to this day: Rsa, Rusa, Ruza, Rusyanka, as well as the names of ancient towns - Russa, Rusa and Ruza.

According to another version, on the contrary, the word “rsa” - water, was derived from the generic name of the ethnic group - “Ross”.

It is difficult to judge which version is correct (or both are incorrect): the deeper you plunge into the mists of centuries, the more guesswork your assumptions become and the more disputes arise between supporters of various “historical schools”.

There is another version.

There is a legend that about 4 years ago in the high part of Asia on the southern slope of the Indukush mountain range lived the highly civilized people of Parsi (Po-Rsy), who gave the so-called “displacements” from their composition - tribes that settled Europe, uninhabited at that time, Asia, and even part of Africa. It is possible that the ancient name “Rsy” is precisely the source from which the name Russy emerged many centuries later. And it served as the root for the production of the words dew and mermaid.

It is well known that the living folk language is not characterized by stagnation; it constantly changes its forms, words lengthen, and sometimes vowels are replaced. However, the most ancient roots, which serve as the framework of words, live unchanged for thousands of years.
For example, in addition to the word “rsa”, we can cite other words of the Old Russian language, which were used by our ancestors 2500 years ago almost exactly in the same form as now: honey, will, evening, nocho (night), door, sky, sweetheart (me), home, trouble, child or child, daughter, brother and many others.

Some Old Russian gravestone inscriptions are made from right to left, which was later adopted by the Arabs. Once in the XNUMXth century, an ancient sarcophagus was found in Italy. Historians from all over the world tried unsuccessfully to guess what kind of ritual was depicted here, and struggled for a long time to decipher the inscription, but they were never able to unravel it. Unexpectedly for everyone, the little-known amateur philologist F. Volansky was able to comprehend this historical secret.

He read and translated the inscription using the Old Russian language: EVTITE BESI HER KUSITALE - “appear the demons, her tempters.” It was learned that the scene depicts the exorcism of demons by sorcerers from a woman possessed by them. The inscription is made from right to left, and now, knowing the answer, even you and I can clearly make out the first word EVTITE:


And on one gravestone, more than 2000 years old, F. Volansky discovered an inscription that seemed to be written in melodious Ukrainian: “Mila Lale, my beauty.” Which once again proves: the Russian language has not changed at all as quickly and dramatically as we are accustomed to believe.

Or let’s take, for example, the name of the first Russian prince mentioned in Greek chronographs - Oleg. At a superficial glance, it seems to us somehow incomprehensible, perhaps even foreign.

And the answer is on the surface: the name Oleg is derived from the ancient Russian word “will” (vlya), and it once sounded like Voleg, which means freedom-loving, not tolerating domination over oneself. Then, due to the habit inherent in the living folk dialect of abbreviating some words by subtracting the first letters, “v” disappeared, and it turned out Oleg.

Moreover, the name Voleg also had a feminine gender: Volga - Olga - Olga. You see, how interesting it is, well, which of you, without my prompting, would have been able to figure out that the name Olga is nothing more than a shortened name of the great Russian river?

Or let’s take a softened folk version of this name - Olya, which is nothing more than an abbreviation of the same word “will”, which gave birth to a large number of other words: “volunteer”; "slave"; “volode” (to own), which gave the origin to another name - Volodymyr (who owns the world); “Volodyko” (lord); "possession" (possession). And also the word “volost”, from which the word “power” later came. The word “will” can also be found in the names of old Russian cities: Volyn and its Ukrainian version Vilno(e).

The above suggests that the call for independence, put into words by our ancestors many centuries ago, has not gone away, has not sunk into oblivion, has not disappeared into the mists of time. It secretly accompanies us to this day, and if you listen very carefully, you will definitely catch its proud sound, muted over millennia.

Many Russian settlements in present-day Europe are very ancient. For example, according to the Russian historian of the 2000th century E.I. Klassen, the Wends (considered by him one of the Russian-Slavic tribes) were in the Baltic Sea region XNUMX years BC, and already at that time they had their own written language. The Alexandrian scientist Ptolemy left information that in the second century AD there was a country called Great Russia.

Here I would like to note that the name Rus, as an ethnographic term, had a very flexible character. In a broad (pan-European) sense, it meant all the Eastern Slavs, subject to the Russian princes; in a less extensive sense, it meant the South Russian Slavs; in a narrow sense, it meant the Polyan tribe or Kievan Rus itself. Finally, sometimes the meaning of this name was narrowed to the concept of class - that was the name of the squad of the Kyiv prince.

Slavs


Some historians believed that the Russians themselves came up with this name, and they liked to call themselves that during various solemn and official relations with other peoples. Allegedly, this name is derived from “glory,” for the ancient Russians were an extremely warlike and very proud people, who believed that in numerous battles they covered themselves with great glory, for which their enemies should respect and fear them.
They often derived their names from the word “glory,” for example: Vladislav, Yaroslav, Svyatoslav, Boguslav, Dobroslav, Bretislav, Bureslav, Mecheslav, Miroslav.

Over the course of centuries, the name “Slavs” began to gradually replace the generic name “Russians,” and by the end of the first millennium AD, some Russian tribes already called themselves not Russians, but rather Slavs, such as the tribes living in Novgorod and its environs.

And those who lived in Kyiv and its environs, on the contrary, did not call themselves Slavs, and when asked “Who are you?” They answered: “I am a Rusyn.” Thus, at a certain stage in the development of a single people, two different nationalities arose: Rusyn and Slav.

It is also interesting to note that the name “Slavs” was most often used in Greek and Roman sources. But the Arabs preferred to call our ancestors Russians, and they still call our country “Russia” and people “Rus”.

There were also significant differences in the customs of the Slavs and the Russians. For example, the Slavs burned the dead, and the Russians gave them to the land, and in clothes and with weapons. Moreover, sometimes, so that the deceased would not get bored in the afterlife, his living wife was buried with him.

It is also curious that, according to foreign sources at the end of the first millennium, the Russians were a seafaring people and loved to make sea voyages (and robberies). The Slavs, on the contrary, were land warriors.

But the Russian historian D.I. Ilovaisky put forward a different version.

According to his assumption, the name Slavs did not come from fame at all, but is a modified name of the Russian tribe Saki, under which they were known to the ancient historian Herodotus (XNUMXth century BC). Then this word went through a series of transformations: Saki - Saklaby (among the Arabs) - Saklavy, Sklavy (among the Romans and Byzantines) - Slavy (the Slavs themselves remade the name Sklavy in their own way). It is known that the Romans and Byzantines long and stubbornly called the Russes Sclavs, and even called their slaves that way, apparently due to the fact that in ancient times they subjugated several Slavic tribes to their power (the word “slaves” was used in the meaning of “paying tribute”) .

The last version seems to me the most convincing, but now no one will tell how it really happened...

By the beginning of the XNUMXth century, the name “Slavs” had already become more widespread than “Russians.” Thus, as centuries passed, the names changed places: Russy became specific and now denotes a nationality, and Slavs became generic and denotes a set (genus) of nationalities, or in other words, a group of genetically related peoples living in various European countries.

For example, today Czechs, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Serbs and even Poles are called Slavs. But Russians are only residents of Russia, and even then not all of them.

Kievan Rus


Lately, I have often observed how various speakers and writers use this phrase in various variations, but at the same time they do not have the slightest idea of ​​what it really means.

According to the assumptions of some Russian scientists who devoted their lives to studying the ancient history of their country, in the XNUMXth–XNUMXth centuries AD, on the territory of the Russian Empire there were three “bushes” of Russian tribes, to which historians assigned the code names “Azov-Black Sea Rus'”, “ Kievan Rus" and "Novgorod Rus".

Simply put, these names are not originally historical, but invented and introduced by scientists into scientific and historical circulation.

By Kievan Rus, historians meant the tribes that lived in Kiev and its environs (Polyana, Drevlyane, Radimichi, etc.), as well as those “sitting” at some distance from Kiev, but ultimately falling “under the arm” of the Kiev princes.

Some people consider Kievan Rus to be the oldest Russian state, which is completely wrong. Despite the fact that, according to the chronicles, the tribes living in the ancient “Kiev region” were tributaries of the Kiev princes, that is, they were formally under their authority, and in the wars started by the princes with neighboring peoples they were obliged to field a certain number of warriors, this commonwealth was called, involuntarily, semi-primitive tribes using the big word “state” would be sheer absurdity.

It is generally accepted that the Russian (Russian) state was founded at the end of the XNUMXth century by Moscow Prince Ivan III, and the name “Russia” itself was introduced into state documents by Ivan IV the Terrible in the second half of the XNUMXth century.

It can be concluded with some reservation that Kievan Rus (later transformed into the Principality of Kievan) finally ceased to exist at the beginning of the 1654th century after the Principality of Kievan became part of Lithuania. Kyiv was included in the Russian state only in XNUMX. And most of the territories that were once part of the principality were returned much later to the Russian Empire.

Thus, what is most curious and most certain is that the territory occupied by the modern state of Ukraine is historically Russian, and the city of Kyiv is the first Russian capital. For, as it is written in the ancient historical source The Tale of Bygone Years: “...And Oleg, the prince, sat down in Kyiv, and Oleg said: “Let this be the mother of Russian cities.”

According to one of the historical versions, the spread of Rus' went from the Kyiv lands to the north, and the Novgorod lands, where a democratic form of government (veche) previously existed, were the last to be included in its composition.

But these circumstances do not make the people now living on the historical territory of the Kyiv Principality Russian.

The issue of nationality is sometimes very ambiguous, and is often resolved not even “by blood”, but by the personal choice of a person in accordance with his own assessment of belonging to any nationality.

For example: one of my friends, born in the USSR, has an Uzbek father and a Ukrainian mother. Well, what do you think his nationality is? You guessed it - Russian.

Conclusion


Many centuries have passed since the departure of Kievan Rus into the historical darkness. Over the past centuries, on the vast territory of the former Principality of Kiev, which later became part of two empires (Russian and USSR), there has been an extensive migration of people, as well as the birth of many children who became the fruit of mixed marriages, when one of the parents was a representative of the indigenous population, and the other a person who arrived from another region of a huge country. And despite the fact that the former Ukrainian SSR has considerably “Russified” over the years of its existence, calling all people born and currently living in the territory of the state of Ukraine Russians, in my opinion, is not entirely correct.

It would be most correct to call them Slavs in the broad sense, and Ukrainians in the narrow sense (as they call themselves and as they were called during the USSR).

And now the war is not between Russians, and not even between Russians and Ukrainians. The war is being waged between Orthodox Slavs - this is the main tragedy of our days.

In terms of tragedy and fierceness, the ongoing hostilities can be compared with the Civil War in Russia that took place in the last century. Now people on both sides of the front (whose grandfathers and fathers were compatriots - citizens of the same country) are fighting to the death with tenacity and courage characteristic only of the Slavs. At the same time, everyone believes that the truth is on his side, and this confidence further intensifies mutual bitterness and embitterment. And their best fighting and moral-volitional qualities at the moment serve a negative goal - mutual destruction.

As has often happened in the history of our Motherland, the youngest and most courageous again die in a fratricidal war. And thousands of civilians die (again, Christian Slavs), who by misfortune find themselves in a combat zone...

And the worst thing is that there will be no winner in this war. With any development of events in historical terms, both opposing sides will be losers, and the gain in the form of the emergence of another century-long enmity between two fraternal Slavic peoples will go to the enemies of the Orthodox Slavic world...

And the emerging demographic vacuum will quickly be filled with immigrants from Central Asian countries; this trend is already noticeable in large Russian cities.

On this sad note, let me end this historical excursion (I admire those who had the patience to read to the end).

Bibliography:
Ilovaisky D.I. The Beginning of Rus'. Astrel, 2004 (based on materials from the 1890 publication).
Klasen E.I. New materials for the ancient history of the Slavs in general and the Slavic-Russians of the pre-Rurik period in particular with a light outline of the history of the Russians before the Nativity of Christ. M., Amrita-Rus, 2005 (based on materials from the 1854 publication).
Savelyev E.P. Ancient history of the Cossacks. M., Veche, 2008 (based on materials from the publication 1915–1918).
180 comments
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  1. +3
    21 October 2023 04: 33
    One could argue a little with the author on some points, but the general essence of the article is correct and makes you think about a lot.
    Thanks to the author.
    1. +14
      21 October 2023 07: 31
      Quote: Proton
      One could argue a little with the author on some points, but the general essence of the article is correct and makes you think about a lot.
      Thanks to the author.

      I definitely thank Luv, I’ve known his views and preferences for a long time, but I’ll be harsh on “some points.”
      Lev (Author), at the beginning, scolding the populists from history and the historians themselves, mixed their populist ideas and thoughts into a heap and got his own way. Perhaps even more “populist” than they have.
      By the way, I am a “deep” Slavophile, but I am personally surprised by the appearance of this article in the History section, and not Opinions.
      I don’t want to quarrel with the Author, whom I appreciate for his other works and comments. Good day everyone, with respect to Kote!
      Read Eduard Vyashchenko!!!
      1. +5
        21 October 2023 08: 46
        The very appearance of such articles forces people to ask questions and look for answers. And when these answers do not coincide with the “official” story, a person begins to think independently, and not with the help of first-channel talking heads.
        I cannot assign myself the high title of a terry Slavophile laughing , but this does not interfere with loving the Motherland and studying history.
        Sincerely. hi
      2. 0
        21 October 2023 19: 42
        Lev (Author), at the beginning, scolding the populists from history and the historians themselves, mixed their populist ideas and thoughts into a heap and got his own way.
        The article does not confuse anything; it briefly outlines the position of Ilovaisky and Savelyev, with which I agree.
        And especially for those who like to break feathers, it is written out of nowhere:
        Let me make a reservation right away: there is no generally accepted (considered by everyone to be correct) answer to these questions, as they say in such cases: regarding the named concepts (terms), historians have separate opinions, which often do not coincide with each other.

        Or to put it another way: these questions are debatable, because due to the scarcity of ancient historical documents, they move from a purely historical plane to an ethnological and even philosophical plane.
        The question is debatable - the debate can be carried on ad infinitum
        1. +8
          21 October 2023 20: 57
          The article does not confuse anything; it briefly outlines the position of Ilovaisky and Savelyev, with which I agree.

          Yeah, terry populists!!
          Dear Lev, be careful with your words, the latter in a number of his speeches agreed to the point that the Cossacks are a separate nationality within Russia.
          Do you agree with this?
    2. +3
      22 February 2024 16: 31
      There is nothing to discuss - the article is just another pseudo-historical guano. The site is surely going down the drain.
    3. 0
      27 February 2024 13: 31
      The author is an amateur and ignoramus. Confuses nationality with citizenship.
      But these circumstances do not make the people now living on the historical territory of the Kyiv Principality Russian.

      Wow! Wasn’t the Principality of Kiev Russian?.... Maybe Ukrainian?
      And despite the fact that the former Ukrainian SSR has considerably “Russified” over the years of its existence, calling all people born and currently living in the territory of the state of Ukraine Russians, in my opinion, is not entirely correct

      It's the other way around. During the years of Soviet power, the Ukrainian SSR became more Ukrainized, both forcibly and artificially. There was Little Russia - it became Ukraine.
      It would be most correct to call them Slavs in the broad sense, and Ukrainians in the narrow sense (as they call themselves and as they were called during the USSR).

      Then immediately - Bandera. They think so too
      And now the war is not between Russians, and not even between Russians and Ukrainians. The war is being waged between Orthodox Slavs - this is the main tragedy of our days.

      The war is going on not only between Orthodox Christians, but also between atheists, schismatics and Greek Catholics, Uniates. In fact, there are millions of people living in Ukraine who consider themselves Russian.
      For example: one of my friends, born in the USSR, has an Uzbek father and a Ukrainian mother. Well, what do you think his nationality is? You guessed it - Russian.

      This is my friend. His name is Lenya (Alimbay), and he also has a brother and sister who consider themselves Ukrainian and Uzbek.
  2. +11
    21 October 2023 05: 03
    the name Oleg is derived from the ancient Russian word “will”

    Oleg - Scandinavian Helg
    Olga - Helga
    1. +1
      21 October 2023 05: 57
      In 2001, the famous explorer Thor Heyerdahl arrived in Rostov. During the trip, he drank vodka with the Cossacks, ate buckets of crayfish and invited his young wife to move to Russia for permanent residence.

      The scientist believed that traces of the presence of the Scandinavian peoples could remain on the Don, moreover, that it was from here that the god Odin began his journey.

      https://rostov.aif.ru/society/persona/poiski_uteryannogo_raya_kak_tur_heyerdal_iskal_skandinavskih_bogov_na_donu

      But in fact, how could the poor and uneducated Vikings, who were always beaten in Rus', unlike the Europeans, bring us statehood? For them we are Gardariki, the Scandinavian name for Rus', which means “country of cities”
      1. 0
        21 October 2023 06: 54
        Quote: bya965
        The scientist believed that traces of Scandinavian peoples could remain on the Don

        Well, the Goths once came to this territory. And there was even a state of Ermanaric...
        1. -2
          21 October 2023 11: 35
          once upon a time the goths came

          You are a Jew and worship Hitler, how interesting.
          But in fact, no one has passed through our Russian lands. They scooped everything up and no one remained except the Russians. This is what the Russian land has stood for and will continue to stand for. Oh, and the rest of the peoples left, some to Europe, some to Asia, only the Kalmyks, as it is true (according to the Cossacks, it is true) the right people remained and we are brothers.
          Why are you so stormy, even the relatively smart ones?
          https://www.mk.ru/politics/2023/10/21/satanovskiy-osatanel-gryazno-obozval-v-efire-mariyu-zakharovu.html
          1. 0
            April 3 2024 18: 49
            The Mongols of the Buddhist and Tengrian religions are now closest to Russians. Kalmyks are Oirat Mongols, Buryats are Buryat Mongols and the Mongols themselves. Our faiths coexist perfectly with each other, unlike others.
      2. +2
        22 October 2023 17: 01
        But in fact, like the poor and uneducated Vikings, who were always beaten in Rus'

        It would be nice to have examples that were “always” beaten.
        how the poor and uneducated Vikings... could bring us statehood.

        What - the Franks brought statehood to the Gallo-Romans? Ostrogoths and Lombards - Italians? Visigoths to Ibero-Romans?
        For them we are Gardariki, the Scandinavian name for Rus', which means “country of cities”

        First, google what Gardarika means.
    2. 0
      21 October 2023 06: 06
      Quote: Luminman
      Oleg - Scandinavian Helg
      Olga - Helga


      When did the Scandinavians appear and when did the name Oleg appear? The Scandinavian Peninsula was the territory of the Novgorod principality, before the emergence of independent principalities, later states. The name itself is most likely derived from the Old Russian, Old Slavic word rock, which is what it is.
      1. -2
        21 October 2023 07: 00
        Quote from Eugene Zaboy
        The name itself is most likely derived from Old Russian

        There is an assumption that the region of Scandinavia is named after the ancient Gemanic goddess - Skadi...
        1. -3
          21 October 2023 08: 54
          Quote: Luminman
          There is an assumption that the region of Scandinavia is named after the ancient Gemanic goddess - Skadi...


          Before the ancient Germans appeared on the territory of Germany, bypassing the Black Sea through Turkey, the Celts, the ancestors of the Yugoslavs, and the Aryans (the ancestors of the Russians) lived there. The territory of the Scandinavian Peninsula was mainly inhabited by the ancestors of the Yugoslavs and Russians. How they turned into Norwegians and Swedes, only God knows. Most likely through Celtic women. They brought wives from Europe, mostly of Celtic origin. Mothers teach children in their languages, children love mothers. This is how Swedes and Norwegians appeared, speaking Swedish and Norwegian, just as Ukrainian appears today. And pundits today are scratching their heads about where the Swedes and Norwegians got the haplogroup of the Yugoslavs and Russians. They themselves do not want to remember this, attributing to themselves the reverse expansion from North to South. We tried under Peter, but we didn’t have enough health. In fact, the Aryans actually had a direct road to the Scandinavian Peninsula, upstream of the Volga, from their place of origin. They reached India, they reached southern England, and they reached the Scandinavian Peninsula along the river, who could stop them. At that time, Western Europeans had not yet been born. Who could stop them except bears? For Russian people, a bear is food.
          1. +4
            22 October 2023 17: 22
            Celts - ancestors of the Yugoslavs

            Are the Yugoslavs aware?
            The territory of the Scandinavian Peninsula was mainly inhabited by the ancestors of the Yugoslavs and Russians. How they turned into Norwegians and Swedes, only God knows. Most likely through Celtic women.

            Smoke good weed.
        2. +4
          21 October 2023 10: 08
          There is an assumption that the region of Scandinavia is named after the ancient Gemanic goddess - Skadi...

          There is an assumption that the region of Scandinavia is named after the Skanda tribe. Which originally populated this Scandinavia.
      2. -1
        21 October 2023 11: 41
        I'm glad you're correct. But if you don’t know the question, don’t interfere, let me make fun of God’s chosen ones, otherwise they will hide behind you.
        Evgeny, we are correct, but they are not. And this is what worries them most.
        They are actually worried about everything, they cannot calculate the situation
      3. +2
        22 October 2023 17: 16
        The Scandinavian Peninsula was the territory of the Novgorod Principality,

        Beautiful version. It's a pity that she's lying.
    3. +7
      21 October 2023 11: 14
      Oleg - Scandinavian Helg
      Olga - Helga

      Is not a fact. Oh, that's not true. Far-fetched. In many sources he is Olg, sometimes Olg, hence the chronicle Olgovichi, not Olegovichi. In the same way, Olga, as a variant of a male name, should have been Oleg, shouldn’t it? But she is exactly that Olga. Or Olga as in some lists. But from the name Olga to Helgu - it’s still noticeably farther, no?

      Besides, Helga-Oleg is a very far-fetched correspondence. And even if so, why is it necessarily borrowed Scandinavian, and not vice versa? How many Voldemars were sitting on the throne in Denmark? Or what was the Kid’s name, remember? Svante Svantesson. So, this is a shortened version, from the 16th century. Before that, this name completely sounded like Svantepolk. Strange, isn't it? A typical West Slavic name that has retained the Proto-Slavic sound -nt.. An analogue is the god of the Luticians Svantevit. By the way, it is characteristic that in Greek sources the name Svyatoslav is rendered as Sfendoslavos, Svendoslev, which has a distinctly Western Slavic sound. And it corresponds well to the legend about the origin of the dynasty precisely from the Obodrit princes. It is possible that initially he was exactly that Svanteslav ..

      For example, the father of the famous Swedish regent Svante Sture (1504-1512) was still called by the full name Svantepolk, and his son, the same regent, already used a shortened version of the name and was known simply as Svante.
      1. +2
        22 October 2023 17: 28
        which has a distinctly Western Slavic sound.

        As far as I remember, modern linguists do not find Western Slavic motifs in Old Russian
    4. AAK
      +1
      21 October 2023 15: 09
      It is quite possible, but, alas, from the “pre-Rurikov Gostomyslov” times, we, EMNIP, have not preserved any direct sources; all the chronicles that describe the events of that period were written much later, but these names were mainly given to children in the princely-boyar -military environment and were not at all common among the associates, i.e. were completely introduced by the visiting Varangians, among whom peasants and artisans, as a rule, were not found at all
      1. -2
        22 October 2023 00: 21
        Quote: AAK
        It is quite possible, but, alas, from the “pre-Rurikov Gostomyslov” times, we, EMNIP, have not preserved any direct sources; all the chronicles that describe the events of that period were written much later, but these names were mainly given to children in the princely-boyar -military environment and were not at all common among the associates, i.e. were completely introduced by the visiting Varangians, among whom peasants and artisans, as a rule, were not found at all


        Are you proposing to proceed from the fact that non-Russian Varangians invented Russian names and assigned them to Russian people? However, you have plenty of imagination. History is a subjective description of facts. The person's name is a fact. Facts are more important than any subjective descriptions, no matter what name is behind the description. Even texts from the Bible or the Old Testament cannot refute the facts.
    5. +7
      21 October 2023 19: 45
      Ilovaisky, too, in his works, was constantly surprised at the attempts of the Normanists to change the original Russian names into Scandinavian ones.
      If you don’t see the obvious relationship between the names Voleg and Oleg, as well as Volga and Olga, then I can only be surprised too
    6. -1
      23 October 2023 08: 14
      Quote: Luminman
      the name Oleg is derived from the ancient Russian word “will”

      Oleg - Scandinavian Helg
      Olga - Helga

      Now go figure out who borrowed what from whom. Skands among the Slavs, or Slavs among the Scandinavians... At that time everything was intertwined, they fought, got married, went together on military campaigns against Tsar Grad. The culture was quite general. The Rise of the Barbarian Tribes. From here and borrowing.
    7. +1
      27 October 2023 16: 44
      Oleg - Scandinavian Helg
      Olga - Helga
      This is what they argue with in our villages - that perhaps Oleg and Olga come from the will and the Volga - this is a beautiful and logical version; But as for the Helgas, their legs grow from there, who might know what this means!? Elena Grot said that in the time of Olga and Oleg, dolphins and mermaids lived in Scandinavia and their fjords would not let him lie - everything there is still covered with algae. There is a similar example that the word soldier comes from the distribution of salt; the counter-argument from academic linguists boils down to the fact that the soldier comes from the name of the Spanish coin soldo... to the counter question - and where did the name of the coin come from, the dispute gradually turns to personalities.
    8. +2
      28 October 2023 17: 01
      Quote: Luminman

      Oleg - Scandinavian Helg
      Olga - Helga

      Where did you get the idea that Oleg is from Helga and Olga is from Helga?
      Why not the other way around - Helg from Oleg and Helga from Olga?
      Because that's what the SCHLETZERS AND COMRADES TOLD YOU?
      1. +3
        8 November 2023 12: 30
        Where did you get the idea that Oleg is from Helga and Olga is from Helga?
        Why not the other way around - Helg from Oleg and Helga from Olga?
        Because that's what the SCHLETZERS AND COMRADES TOLD YOU?

        Maybe because the Scandinavians came to Rus', and not the Slavs to Scandinavia?
    9. +1
      April 8 2024 15: 22
      In ancient song epics they sing "Olg". Therefore, Olg is Olga, and not Oleg is Olga. And Olg did not necessarily come from Helga, most likely the other way around.
      1. 0
        April 8 2024 16: 04
        Quote: Jurkovs
        And Olg did not necessarily come from Helga, most likely the other way around.

        In German phonetics there is simply no one like Olg. This is difficult for a German to say...
  3. +16
    21 October 2023 05: 05
    Water, historical fantasy, not a lot of politics, shove such opuses into opinions, what does the history section have to do with this, sometimes real historians write here.
  4. +3
    21 October 2023 05: 16
    An interesting article and educational (for some zealous people). Especially in terms of:
    According to some Russian historians of the XNUMXth century, “Rossy” and “Russy” are the most ancient generic name of all Russian tribes.

    It was they who saw the “SS” symbol in the Latin language of my nickname.
    I'm glad that history buffs appear on the site from time to time. It is interesting to get acquainted with the opinion and knowledge of not only Vyacheslav Olegovich.
    * * *
    And now the war is not between Russians, and not even between Russians and Ukrainians. The war is being waged between Orthodox Slavs - this is the main tragedy of our days.

    In my opinion, wars are ALWAYS fought either between parasites and parasites, or between parasites and creators.
    This is exactly how WWII went, in which the Soviet people, the creator, won.
    It is not for nothing that even today there are Elon Musks admiring the beauty of the Soviet metro stations (Avtovo station)...
    It is disgusting that in such wars the initiator is always the third party who receives the greatest benefit from it. Most often, the Anglo-Saxons succeed in this. Britain - due to natural defects, the USA - due to defective heredity, adventurers and scoundrels rushed in pursuit of a good life, ultimately exterminating the indigenous population of the continent.
    1. +11
      21 October 2023 05: 49
      Quote: ROSS 42
      They saw the symbol “SS” in the Latin language of my nickname

      Some also deduce Russians from Etruscans wink
      1. +5
        21 October 2023 10: 53
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Quote: ROSS 42
        They saw the symbol “SS” in the Latin language of my nickname

        Some also deduce Russians from Etruscans wink


        And some Etruscans from Russians wassat
        1. 0
          21 October 2023 11: 47
          Quote: NIkodim

          Some also deduce Russians from Etruscans


          And some Etruscans from Russians


          It's surprising that the Greeks are doing this. Not expected. They usually all come from the Greeks. It turns out that the Etruscans are races.



          DNA Study Finds Etruscans Originated From Steppes—Not Anatolia
          By
          Patricia Claus
          August 20

          It has long been known that the Etruscans, who called themselves the Rasenna and who battled the early Romans in defending their territory, had a very advanced culture with elaborate architecture and burials and grave objects of exquisite artistry showing the advancement of their technology.

          It has long been known that Etruscans who called themselves Rasenna and who fought the early Romans to defend their territory had a very advanced culture with complex architecture, burials and fine grave art exhibiting the development of their technology.

          The Etruscans actually descended from pastoralists (sheep herders) who moved into the region from the steps during the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age from approximately 6,000 BC to 3,500 BC.

          The enormous region of the steps, in what is now Hungary, the Ukraine, and Central Asia, is, of course, part of the area where all Indo-European languages ​​originated. This is a fact which makes these new DNA results even more perplexing—and almost maddening—for linguists since language is almost always a determinant of culture.

          The Etruscans actually descended from pastoralists (sheep farmers) who moved into the region from the steppes during the Late Neolithic and Bronze Ages from around 6000 BC. to 3500 BC

          The vast region of steppes in what is now Hungary, Ukraine and Central Asia is, of course, part of the area of ​​origin of all Indo-European languages. This is a fact that makes these new DNA findings even more confusing—and almost maddening—for linguists, since language is almost always the defining factor of culture.


          Something like this! Which in itself is interesting, especially considering the number of broken copies associated with the origin of the Etruscans.
          1. -1
            22 October 2023 17: 30
            And what do the Russians have to do with it?
    2. +5
      21 October 2023 09: 23
      Are you interested in the opinion of the propagandist of the district party committee?
      I think he doesn't exist.
      1. -1
        21 October 2023 09: 55
        Quote: ee2100
        Are you interested in the opinion of the propagandist of the district party committee?

        You forgot to indicate the name of the party. For example, I am not interested in the opinion of liars and talkers - propagandists of the United Russia party, not only at the level of district committees, but also at the level of the Secretary General...
        Quote: ee2100
        I think there is none.

        Your opinion coincides with the opinion of the school principal from “Problem Child 2”...
        Try to express yourself more clearly: there is no propagandist, there is no opinion, there is no you together with your serviceist friends, there are no cunning multi-steps or there is no mind to answer in detail?
    3. +2
      28 October 2023 17: 24
      Quote: ROSS 42
      An interesting article and educational (for some zealous people).

      Yuri Vasilyevich, you quoted - “And now there is a war not between Russians, and not even between Russians and Ukrainians. The war is being waged between Orthodox Slavs - that is the main tragedy of our days.”
      In it, the author, in my opinion, simply juggles terms.
      Here the author writes - “So, at a certain stage in the development of a single people, two different nationalities arose: Rusyn and Slav.”
      How can two DIFFERENT (!!!) nationalities appear from one people?
      In my opinion, the people remained as they were - Russian, but due to very specific historical realities, a certain part of this people was given a new "drive" - ​​Ukrainian and was instilled in every possible way. Let's remember "Talergof" and "Terezin", let's remember the actions of the Kyiv Bolsheviks in the 30s in Little Russia and Novorossiya.
  5. +6
    21 October 2023 05: 35
    I had enough patience to finish reading. But somehow the material suddenly ran out. The author “jumped” from antiquity to our day. As a result, the entire material became an extremely long preamble, which received neither analytical development nor logical conclusion.
    Despite the fact that it was not harmful to refresh facts that were previously well-known but half-forgotten, on the whole I regret that I had enough patience and spent time reading.
    1. +1
      21 October 2023 20: 21
      Quote: U-58
      In general, I regret that I had enough patience and spent time reading.
      I’ve never understood people who patiently read to the end articles that they don’t like at all, and then complain to the author for wasting their time because of him laughing
  6. -1
    21 October 2023 05: 47
    "...the main world authority in the field of demography is considered to be the Population Division of the UN Department of Economic and Social Affairs. Based on its data, research is conducted in a variety of fields of science, it is most often referred to and quoted. You, in fact, swung at the sacred - developed their own apparatus for demographic forecasting. Why?

    Albert Bakhtizin: I think you will be interested in the fact that this was not our initiative, but that of our colleagues from China. The fact is that, according to UN forecasts, by the end of the century their demographic situation will be worse than ours, and in general, one of the worst in the world. UN experts predict that in Russia by the end of the century, depending on the scenarios, the population will range from 74,2 to 162,4 million people, and according to the most likely, moderate scenario, 112 million people.
    ...
    Of course, your forecast for Russia is more optimistic compared to what the UN gives?

    Albert Bakhtizin: Our model calculated: if current trends in mortality, fertility and migration continue, the population of Russia by the end of the century will be 120,5 million people, which is higher than UN forecasts. And if various measures are implemented, primarily to stimulate the birth rate, it will grow to 148,9 million people. "
    https://rg.ru/2023/05/30/dvojnik-s-oon-ne-soglasen.html

    again the youngest and most courageous perish. .... the emerging demographic vacuum will quickly be filled with immigrants from Central Asian countries; this trend is already noticeable in large Russian cities.


    Firstly, not only from Central Asia, migration processes are a little more complex.

    Secondly, there is another aspect of migration: the outflow of the population from the Russian Federation, while people are leaving not only in the direction of “Upper Lars to sit for a month.”
    They leave “for a long time,” both as families and individually, and mostly in the following categories: “with money,” or “in demand by profession,” or “to study.” And it’s not like they plan to return somehow.

    Thirdly, additionally, some events in the Russian Federation can accelerate the “negative growth” of the population: “I would like that in our society, which trusts the president 80% - this is exactly the indicator of unity that exists today - all the rot that remained, should be, if not isolated, then at least somehow destroyed,” Gurulev said in a broadcast on October 15.” (c) State Duma deputy from the Trans-Baikal Territory, Lieutenant General Andrei Gurulev. https://www.chita.ru/text/politics/2023/10/21/72834344/

    And some more numbers and trends to assess the situation in the Russian Federation:
    Population - 9th in the world, (declining), between Mexico and Bangladesh.
    https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/en-ru.ru.90133898-653335cc-9651d7d4-74722d776562/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations)

    Economy - 11th in the world (descending), between Canada and Mexico.
    https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/en-ru.ru.a5642692-65333619-9cdf3865-74722d776562/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
    1. 0
      21 October 2023 09: 01
      It is only in their anti-Sovietism that the enemies of the USSR pose as “philanthropists”, “concerned about the preservation of the people”, but outside of it they have proven that they do not care about all the sacrifices of the people. They don't care
      that the excess mortality rate after 1991 amounted to more than 18 million people, the people suffered demographic damage of about 50 million people, because “but now everything is there.”
  7. +3
    21 October 2023 06: 06
    The Koreans who arrived in the USSR in the early 50s with tears in their eyes proved that they were Russian... They were boys, having stayed in the USSR for 3-4 years, and then we did the same with them...
  8. +11
    21 October 2023 06: 09
    I want to note that not many centuries have passed since the departure of Kievan Rus into the historical darkness, as the author of the article writes, but only less than two centuries have passed since the appearance of the concept of the term Kievan Rus. And this term did not appear in Kiev, but in St. Petersburg from the Russians historians Karamzin and Solovyov. Of course, Maksimovich later seized on this term in Kyiv. By the way, Karamzin was an ardent Anglophile; British and Polish leaders had long been “itching” to somehow tear these outlying lands away from Russia itself. So the Poles gave Karamzin the idea, Solovyov continued it, and Maksimovich at Kiev University consolidated it in historiography. Those times when, according to their version, Kievan Rus existed, no one knew about the existence of such a Rus. Moreover, neither under Peter the Great nor under Ivan the Terrible and Catherine the Great. So it was not Kievan Rus that sank into the historical darkness a long time ago, but they told us about Kievan Rus only recently
  9. +15
    21 October 2023 07: 21
    Yeah, the Etruscans are Russians, and the Cherusci are crappy Russians. laughing And the works of Thaddeus Wolansky, aka Tadeusz, in their content say only one thing: that Wolansky was too trusting and extremely gifted with a magnificent imagination. Author, but during the civil years, the Petliurists fought against whom? And against whom did they not fight?
  10. +5
    21 October 2023 08: 13
    In my opinion, a very controversial article. The author identifies Ukrainians as a separate variety of Slavs. But the concept *Ukrainian* did not exist at all. It expressed the concept of a resident of territories on the outskirts of the center. Kievan Rus. Indeed, the term was invented by scientists to divide the studied periods of Russian History. But I think that such a division is not based on territoriality, but based on the location of the central government (the Grand Ducal Table) at the moment. For example, when the Grand Ducal Table was in Vladimir and it was already Vladimir Rus.
    In general, I consider myself a follower of the theory that Rus' developed from the North. If there is West and East, then ancient Rus' is the North. In terms of mentality, we differ from both. Scientists claim that the Earth changed its poles twice, which means that the climate and continents and the development of mankind took different paths. The time will come and these secrets will become available.
    1. +4
      21 October 2023 10: 01
      You are confused. It cannot be that at the same time “the concept did not exist” and it “expressed” something.

      If the people did not create the state, this does not mean that there are no people.

      For example, Saint Alexander of Svirsky was a Vepsian. They did not have and do not have a state. . But it does not follow from this that the Vepsians are “residents” who do not exist as a people.

      Were Jews a people before 1948?

      I believe that Ukrainians are all those who consider themselves Ukrainians.... And no one will force them to think differently.
      1. -7
        21 October 2023 13: 00
        Quote: ivan2022
        Were Jews a people before 1948?


        Not to offend, but I have to say that Jews do not fall under the definition of the word people. If We look at the word na - genus, we will see the root word genus, suggesting a family connection between people. A Jew is a person who has undergone a certain ritual, which does not correspond to the concept of the word people. In any case, our ancestors did not foresee this. Currently, as is known, Israeli researchers continue to work in this direction and are trying to find the missing connections and convincing justifications. So far no success.
        1. ANB
          +3
          21 October 2023 22: 01
          . A person who has undergone a certain ritual is recognized as a Jew.

          Jewish.
          1. -3
            22 October 2023 01: 12
            Quote: ANB
            . A person who has undergone a certain ritual is recognized as a Jew.

            Jewish.


            Does this matter from the Russian language point of view? For the Russian language, Jew and Jew are identical. However, this is precisely why the use of the word people in relation to Jews is incorrect until they clearly define their ancestral, real family. Fantasies on the theme of texts from the Bible, the Old Testament and other exotic sources must have one real source, one clan, one tribe, one genetic code. Otherwise it turns out to be a mess. It is more correct to use other definitions, for example, a social group, or society, or definitions from other languages ​​that will more accurately convey the meaning. Why destroy the Russian language for the sake of the Jews’ desire to be called a people in Russian, if it does not provide for this, is unclear. By destroying the Russian language, we are depriving it of meaning, and this is unacceptable.
      2. 0
        22 October 2023 08: 47
        Jews. Look on the Internet for a map of ancient Judea. It was a large state with influence on neighboring countries. So these people.
        Ukraine. Ukrainians can consider themselves whatever they want. Even the descendants of the ancient Greek hero Achilles. How the students came up with it back in the 17th century and told the Zaporozhye Cossacks about it. In 808, under the influence of Judea, the Khazar Kaganate was formed and the Jewish merchant elite seized power. She began to enslave her neighbors. And Christians were persecuted, fled to the outskirts and settled on the Don. Nevertheless, the Rus retreated under the onslaught of the Kaganate, reaching the Dnieper. And only in the 9th century did the Kaganate have a strong opponent, princes from the Rurik dynasty. In 965, Svyatoslav Igorevich dealt a mortal blow to the Kaganate, and his son, Vladimir, finished him off.
        During all this time, the chronicles do not mention Ukrainians as a separate people. Today, Ukrainians consider themselves descendants of the Cossacks. But as Gumilyov believed, the Cossacks are a subethnic group of another community of peoples and have nothing to do with today’s Ukrainians.
        Our ancestors understood this, unlike modern pseudo-historians. That’s why there are no such people in the latest census of the Russian Empire. Belarus, and even Samoyeds and Evenks, but no Ukrainians.
        1. 0
          April 3 2024 19: 16
          In 808, under the influence of Judea, the Khazar Kaganate was formed and the Jewish merchant elite seized power. She began to enslave her neighbors. And Christians were persecuted, fled to the outskirts and settled on the Don. Nevertheless, the Rus retreated under the onslaught of the Kaganate, reaching the Dnieper.
          What kind of Christians were they like in the 9th century..? Where did these Christians of yours flee to the outskirts, to the Don...? Where did these Russians of yours retreat to the Dnieper?
    2. +2
      21 October 2023 19: 49
      In my opinion, a very controversial article. The author identifies Ukrainians as a separate variety of Slavs. But the concept *Ukrainian* did not exist at all.
      It is not the author who deduces this; it was even before him that the nationality of UKRAINIANS was officially established in the USSR.
      By the way, they even wrote that in passports
  11. +1
    21 October 2023 08: 36
    Some strange interpretation.

    I don’t care what the warring parties call themselves and what different “funeral customs” they have.
    We have even more differences with the DPRK This is not why they are fighting.

    They are fighting because the Russians created a huge country, the wealth of which they corrupted the Russians. And because of THIS, the Russians have become weak and cannot resist their own thieves and traitors. And they gave them power.

    And in such a situation, many want to take advantage of a weak nation. And the same Koreans and Chinese will give us the heat someday again!! That's how the world works.... laughing
    1. -2
      21 October 2023 11: 34
      the same Koreans and Chinese will give us the heat someday!! That's how the world works....

      Why ever? Right now!
      How many people know that an agreement was signed between Russia and China to lease vast lands in Eastern Siberia and the Far East to China for 49 years? How many people know that these lands are comparable in area to the area of ​​Ukraine? At the same time, it is assumed that there will be Chinese administrations...
      The agreement comes into force in 2027 - on paper. Comrade Xi insists that from 2025.
      Do you believe that after the lease expires, China, given the active establishment of its citizens, will leave these territories?
      1. +3
        21 October 2023 11: 51
        Quote: depressant
        How many people know that an agreement was signed between Russia and China to lease vast lands in Eastern Siberia and the Far East to China for 49 years? How many people know that these lands are comparable in area to the area of ​​Ukraine? At the same time, it is assumed that there will be Chinese administrations...

        Give this “agreement” to the studio, please. It really looks like a lie, although you personally, it seems, haven’t been caught in a lie yet... I wonder what kind of “agreement” is there Yes
        1. 0
          21 October 2023 12: 23
          Roman, the Internet is in your hands!
          You're a professional.
          1. +2
            21 October 2023 12: 36
            Quote: depressant
            The Internet is in your hands!

            Ay-ay-ay... not good, undignified.

            You see... I've read a lot on this topic. But I didn’t come across such heart-wrenching details as you mention. For some reason. Although I am a “professional”.

            Hence the topic: source to the studio, or words - back. The burden of proof lies with the claimant, remember, perhaps? Well, wow... Yes

            Quote: depressant
            You're a professional

            Well, where do I care about you? You live here, I just come here for a walk request
            1. 0
              April 3 2024 19: 23
              You won’t find this nonsense that the “depressant” talks about there. And when you tell him this, he will answer - “What do I have to do with it? Either they were looking badly, or I don’t know what. I have nothing to do with it...” That’s how empty talkers “smear themselves”
      2. 0
        April 3 2024 19: 19
        How many people know that an agreement was signed between Russia and China to lease vast lands in Eastern Siberia and the Far East to China for 49 years? How many people know that these lands are comparable in area to the area of ​​Ukraine? At the same time, it is assumed that there will be Chinese administrations...
        The agreement comes into force in 2027 - on paper. Comrade Xi insists that from 2025.
        STOP TALKING WITH ALL THE BULLSHIT!!!
  12. +8
    21 October 2023 08: 52
    In the last 15 years I spent a lot of time

    What region do you think the author is from?
    There is a good word “last”, but we adhere to the superstitions that are fashionable today (edge, sat down, etc.)
    1. +1
      21 October 2023 18: 19
      What region do you think the author is from?

      Well, it was enough to write, for example, from 2008.
  13. +7
    21 October 2023 08: 54
    The current critical state of relations between the states of the Russian Federation and Ukraine, considered (and indeed were) before the collapse of the USSR fraternal republics of the RSFSR and Ukrainian SSR, causes many people who proudly call themselves Soviet officers acute pain and a strong need to speak out - to publicly express their attitude to reality.

    These are pro-Soviet people of different nationalities who lived in friendship and peace, but anti-Soviet people hate both the pro-Soviet people and each other.
  14. +13
    21 October 2023 09: 19
    The article should have been called “About Russians and Slavs from the perspective of an imbecile.” Even Samsonov hasn’t been so fired up for a long time.
    It’s funny how such material instantly attracts schizoids and degenerates of all stripes into the comments.
    1. +5
      21 October 2023 09: 54
      Even Samsonov hasn’t had a blast like this for a long time.
      Volansky reached the point where he had an “indisputable” authority, it became clear which way the wind was blowing, but Volansky, at least not Petukhov. smile
    2. 0
      21 October 2023 10: 12
      This will demonstrate the depth of your academic knowledge. Otherwise, apart from loud insults, they haven’t written anything yet
      1. +8
        21 October 2023 14: 10
        This will demonstrate the depth of your academic knowledge. Otherwise, apart from loud insults, they haven’t written anything yet


        At VO many times, both in articles and comments, the issue of the origin of the Slavs was touched upon. There was a problem and a formulation of the question. And what ancient archaeological cultures reliably correlate with the Slavs and archaeological markers of the Slavs and the importance of retrospective analysis.

        Should I comment on this? Explain that the author is stealing someone else's story?
        In various eras, the Russians appeared on the historical stage under numerous names, for example: Veneds, Scythians, Massagetae, Antes, Agofirs, Sarmatians, Saki, Skolots, Getae, Alans, Roksolans, Budins, Yaksamatas, Trojans, Rugs, Ruzhans (Russian farmers) . All these names were given by the surrounding peoples to numerous Russian tribes living in various eras in vast territories from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, and from the Caspian Sea to Central Asia and the Middle East, and even to Egypt.

        Isn't it a lot of honor to explain academic principles to degenerates? And why, if they are degenerates and still won’t understand?
        And the author’s reference to Ukraine is the icing on the cake, a marker of complete idiocy.
        Especially for such people there is a news section with a roll call of imbeciles under the tag #Ukraine. The morons are crowing, the two minutes of hatred are going off with a bang, the turmoil is being replaced by victory. Everyone is happy.
        Where are you going in history?
  15. +2
    21 October 2023 09: 26
    “We are from the Russian family, Karl, Ingelot, Farlov, Veremid, Rulav, Gudy, Ruald, Karn, Flelav, Ruar, Aktutruyan, Lidulfost, Stemid, sent by Oleg, the Grand Duke of Russia and all the Bright Boyars under his hand to you, Leo , Alexander and Konstantin"
    1. +4
      21 October 2023 11: 29
      And what? Why couldn't mercenaries be ambassadors? It doesn’t say there that they are Russian? It was said that they had arrived FROM Russian family...Where were you sent from? From the Russians. Which says nothing about the ethnicity of those who sent them.
      1. +2
        22 October 2023 17: 43
        Why couldn't mercenaries be ambassadors?

        Because mercenaries are soldiers, not ambassadors. How can a politician trust people who serve a foreign prince for money? Yes, the Greeks would have bought them up. If mercenaries become ambassadors, then most likely their prince is of the same blood. Well, a general idea - where did you see mercenaries during the formation of the state?
  16. +7
    21 October 2023 09: 26
    Quote. [quote][/quote]
    “I am telling you top secret (in the world of historians) information: a real historian knows perfectly only some narrow historical question, for example, what were the funeral customs of the ancient Slavs living in Novgorod and its environs in the 1941th–XNUMXth centuries. And in some On another narrow historical question (for example, how the battles near Volokolamsk and Istra actually took place in the second half of November XNUMX), this historian will be competent to the same extent as an ordinary person using easily accessible (and sometimes very dubious) sources...”

    The author of the publication made a good point.
    The Internet and Wikipedia have created the Great Illusion that history, as a science, is accessible to any blogger with a technical education who does not have basic systemic knowledge of history.

    Nowadays you won’t earn anything on websites, blogs, TV programs on higher mathematics, colloid chemistry, and strength of materials - there won’t be a mass audience, people don’t care about all this. A+B=C. So what of this, what next? How does this affect, for example, the war with Ukraine? No one will advertise for such a program.

    That’s why techies went into history and got into political science, which is now especially politicized and excites minds. The lack of a systematic humanitarian education gives rise to “bold” phantasmagoric theories that do not fit on a normal head. It’s even worse when history is adjusted to fit the modern political climate.

    Let's remember. There was a time when everyone, father and mother, supported Stalin. A huge number of perestroika sensational “revelations”, “discoveries”, etc. and so on. From the popular - there were essentially no attempts on Stalin's life, who needs him - everyone knows a pathetic paranoid with a mania of persecution...
    Now there is another extreme - as in the children's song about Karabas-Barabas: “And he is not a tormentor, but our good friend and teacher...”. The social order has changed - we are writing an alternative history for it...

    “Now historians are trying to present that in one thousand five hundred something was there. But there was nothing! All these are machinations!...”
    Chernomyrdin.

  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. +1
    21 October 2023 10: 36
    How does the author know what our ancestors called themselves, if before Cyril and Methodius there was no writing in Rus'? By the way, many historians classify the Vedas as Swedes. Don't be like the Ukrainians who dug up the Black Sea!
    1. +4
      21 October 2023 10: 39
      Just before Cyril and Mythodius in Rus' there was writing hi
      1. +2
        22 October 2023 17: 48
        Just before Cyril and Mythodius in Rus' there was writing

        Of course she was. At least there is writing on Svyatoslav’s seal - the inscription is made in Greek, in uncial. Or on the famous amphora from Gnezdovo - in Bulgarian. Or in the Kiev letter - in Hebrew.
    2. 0
      21 October 2023 19: 52
      How does the author know what our ancestors called themselves?

      The author did not claim to know - you imagined it hi
  19. 0
    21 October 2023 10: 38
    The author very strongly stated that the article is about:
    "About Russians and Slavs from the perspective of ancient history"
    But there is very little history here. The fact that Russians and modern Ukrainians do not argue with this. The well-known Klesov compared them as 2 apples on one branch.
    An article about the current moment and the results of the war.
    Regarding the early Slavs and Kievan Rus, I can recommend a good book.
  20. +2
    21 October 2023 10: 44
    An attempt to refer to Ilovaisky, a historian of the mid-19th century, completely forgotten today, looks fun. Suffice it to mention that Ilovaisky absolutely seriously considered the hero of ancient Greek myths Achilles to be a Slav!

    The anecdote about the “little-known amateur philologist F. Volansky” is generally reminiscent of the “philological studies” of the satirist Zadornov.

    But the author’s moral position (the thesis about the meaninglessness of the current war) deserves respect.
    1. +2
      21 October 2023 11: 44
      It is interesting to read “battles of historians”. But as my general said, “There are theories recognized and not recognized, but there are correct and incorrect.” Professional historians naturally use established theories. But this does not mean that they are correct. It's clear why this happens. It is also clear what negative consequences they carry for forecasting. The main problem of professional historical science is that they stew in their own juice and, as is right, they are complete humanists and any attempts by non-humanitarians to invade their patrimony are repulsed as best they can. But I don’t think they can hold the line for long, of course they won’t be liquidated, they will be left on the reservation, even with government funding. Let them copy their works from one book to another. Really a movement of peoples, i.e. the historical process depends on the climate, the climate depends on where the poles were in a given period. https://cont.ws/jr/earthrotations
      Now they are trying to calculate this using secondary “separate signs.” With what frequency do pole shifts occur (in the observable historical period, say 2 thousand years), at what speed, at what distance. They are trying to figure it out from material evidence - the orientation of religious buildings, analysis of ancient maps (star maps are especially interesting), texts describing the climate. and so on. More in-depth studies are the thickness of layers of organic sediments carried out by rivers into the ocean, the thickness of peat layers in swamps (peat does not form in warm climates), “permafrost” and soil layers, and much more in the surrounding world that bears traces of catastrophic changes. Plus linguistics, genetics, research into the distribution of blood groups across regions (as I understand it is not very friendly with genetics). That is, the process is going on, where historians are not clear. They probably argue how many devils can fit on the tip of a needle. It's a pity we could have contributed. If we return to the article today, here is an interesting book, the date of writing is interesting, maybe even this is in some form a prophecy (forecast). http://www.ipiran.ru/egorov/hraith.htm
      1. +1
        21 October 2023 14: 05
        The main problem of professional historical science is that they stew in their own juices and how correctly they are complete humanists


        This could be said precisely about such a “historian” as Ilovaisky was.

        But more modern historians have already changed a lot.
        For example, such a historian as Yuri Gauthier (early 20th century) is not so much a “pure historian” as a specialist in the history of the economics of Rus'.
        He is no longer talking about “blah blah blah” and his own conclusions, but about numbers and historical financial documents.
    2. -3
      21 October 2023 12: 10
      But the author’s moral position (the thesis about the meaninglessness of the current war) deserves respect.

      Dear colleague, I cannot but agree with your opinion.
      There's just one "but".
      The current SVO, which is meaningless to us, is the result of a telephone conversation between Presidents Putin and Biden on December 31, 2021. Putin transferred the inevitable, forced military actions to foreign territory. In any of the cases, the NWO is a blow to the Chinese Silk Road, which previously passed through our country, and now bypasses it, which lengthens the logistics shoulder from 2-3 weeks to 2-3 months. Consequently, the SVO is a blow not planned by us to the economy of primarily Europe, which receives its brands from China, where they are made, as well as to the economies of Russia and China.
      Well, this is me, by the way, just explaining who benefits. As the ancient Romans said, if you want to find ends, follow the money.
      1. 0
        21 October 2023 13: 48
        ...the result of a telephone conversation between Presidents Putin and Biden on December 31, 2021. Putin transferred the inevitable, forced military actions to foreign territory.


        Were they really like that? inevitable? If only for 11 days (February 13) before the start, we convinced everyone in the world that there would be no military conflict with Ukraine, because we don’t need it, that the Americans are lying about our plans?
        It is unlikely that we lied so openly and brazenly.
        Most likely, even 11 days later, the final decision on the need for surgery had not yet been made.


        https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5215932
        13.02.2022
        Zakharova called US statements about Russia's plans to attack Ukraine a provocation

        “What is the purpose of this hysteria - escalating the situation and, of course, provocative activity. This is part of the international reach of the provocation."
        1. -2
          21 October 2023 13: 52
          Quote from: dump22
          Most likely, even 11 days later, the final decision on the need for surgery had not yet been made

          For clowning it's not funny, for trolling it's cheap. Incontinence? wink
          1. +1
            21 October 2023 20: 27
            I think that final decision on the start of the SVO was decided approximately 10 days before it began and was decided solely by one person, without meetings or discussions.

            He confronted most of the rest of our elite with a fait accompli - on the eve of the famous public meeting of the Security Council on February 21.
      2. +6
        21 October 2023 15: 01
        Dear colleague, I cannot but agree with your opinion.
        There's just one "but".
        The current SVO, which is meaningless to us, is the result of a telephone conversation between Presidents Putin and Biden on December 31, 2021. Putin transferred the inevitable, forced military actions to foreign territory.

        Sometimes you express sensible thoughts. But sometimes you carry such a blizzard that your fur coat gets wrapped up.
        1. +1
          21 October 2023 20: 10
          the fur coat is wrapped up.

          Viktor Nikolaevich, turn it around wassat)))
          Months and years pass, and it turns out that I was right. But no one is interested in this anymore, no one will remember.
          1. +2
            21 October 2023 20: 45
            so unfold

            And whether it is necessary?
      3. +1
        April 3 2024 19: 29
        The current SVO is meaningless for us
        You've already given yourself a deadline...
  21. -1
    21 October 2023 11: 47
    “And the worst thing is that there will be no winner in this war. Whatever the historical course of events, both opposing sides will be losers, and the gain in the form of the emergence of another age-old enmity between the two fraternal Slavic peoples will go to the enemies of the Orthodox Slavic world...!”
    Alas, this is how it is seen and intended
    The population is dying out.
    There are more and more migrants.
    The Russian Spring was crushed and forgotten almost instantly. Where are its leaders? But the Edra officials who came to replace them were not injured.
    The bosses write from their warm offices how much they “hate” them.
    Etc
    IMHO, there is no way out. There was the last flicker of the candle of Russian democracy, and it went out
  22. +11
    21 October 2023 12: 31
    The article is complete rubbish, nonsense and profanity.
    Somewhere behind the scenes of the site, Alexander Samsonov sighed gratefully, touchingly shaking a tear from his eyelashes - after all, his labors were not in vain and the rubbish that he poured into people’s ears almost completely alone for several years began to sprout with brown shoots from the mouths of some of his readers.
    Still, what a fertile ground here at VO for all sorts of such pseudo-historical defecations, how quickly non-similar excretions are collected by local flies, who for some reason consider themselves patriots on the sole grounds that, out of their own stupidity and ignorance, they deny the provisions of historical science.
    Here, in this article, everything is fine: home-grown amateur linguistics, a biased selection of facts, pressure on the reader’s emotions and erroneous conclusions from erroneous premises...
    For some reason, I still haven’t associated the author’s name with such blatant, I would say total, imbecility shown in this article, in fact, that’s why I started reading it, and here it is...
    (Here there should be an expression consisting of several unprintable words, the content of which can be summarized by the words “everything is very bad, and it will probably be even worse”).
    And yes, read Vashchenko. You can argue with him and disagree, but he never allowed himself such blatant nonsense as in today’s article (it’s even awkward to compare).
    am am am
    1. +8
      21 October 2023 13: 03
      Mikhail, good afternoon! According to the comments, “people” likes, “people”, eats. smile
      And yes, read Vashchenko
      Please note, “under Vashchenko”, “people” does not come. Vashchenko does not satisfy the requirements. Relatively speaking, if on the VO website, in the History section, an article appears about how Russian explorers dug up Baikal and there will be a lot of rave reviews, to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised. hi
      1. +7
        21 October 2023 13: 39
        Greetings, Alex.
        If I’m not mistaken, the same author wrote about Zoya, about the battle near Dubosekovo, there were several other articles - quite adequate, as it seemed to me. Something happened? Did the author of those articles sell his account to some Samson graphomaniac?
        Is it really possible, having a certain intelligence and the makings of a researcher, to write such nonsense? At least Zadornov was funny... request
        1. +5
          21 October 2023 14: 33
          If I'm not mistaken, the same author wrote
          Yes Mikhail, you are not mistaken
          Is it really possible, having a certain intelligence and the makings of a researcher, to write such nonsense?
          It turns out you can, I looked at his previous articles, the style and manner of presentation are the same. You went to school, didn’t you? Sometimes, when solving problems in mathematics in the elementary grades, you adjusted the answer? Although the solution was not correct? Well, if you didn’t do it, it’s a sin, you adjusted smile So is the author, he pushes the answer, although the solution is not correct. He wants to justify his thoughts, but he rejects other solutions due to the ideologies that he adheres to, and in the end the result is nonsense.
  23. +4
    21 October 2023 12: 35
    1) I wonder what it is
    positions of ancient history
    ? Is this a synonym for the term "chatter" or what?
    2)
    Over the past 15 years, I have devoted a lot of time to studying the history of the Great Patriotic War. And now, comparing the events taking place on the fronts with what happened then, I am once again convinced of the correctness of my conclusion: those who know the past well have the opportunity to predict the future with acceptable accuracy, because the future is the logical conclusion of the past, and sometimes even its almost complete repetition
    What a strange theory. Let’s say that it is possible to compare the events of the Great Patriotic War, since they have been documented a thousand times and even a million times + photos and film chronicles. There's a lot to explore here. But how to study something from which not a single document remains? How can you predict something based on... some fairy tales on the topic of history?
    3)
    And those who lived in Kyiv and its environs, on the contrary, did not call themselves Slavs, and when asked “Who are you?” They answered: “I am a Rusyn.”
    Sorry, but who asked the question? I understand that if you referred to a specific traveler who left his original notes, as, for example, the rogue Marquis de Custine did. Yes, this was proven by a real person who asked questions about this to our peasants. But where did you get that from? And those who lived in Kyiv and its environs, on the contrary, did not call themselves Slavs, and when asked “Who are you?” They answered: “I am a Rusyn.”
    4).
    Volodymyr (who owns the world)
    Actually, this name used to be written with a second “e” (the last vowel).
    4.1...teacher and mentor, the great kagan of our land Volodimer, grandson of old Igor...".
    4.2. “Praise to our Kagan Volodymer, from him I was baptized”
    So there is no smell of peace here. Rather, he owns the Meryas (the Merya people). Or by measure.
    5)
    It is also interesting to note that the name “Slavs” was most often used in Greek and Roman sources.
    Even more curious is that one ancient Greek narrative source or ancient Roman narrative source did not reach the original times of historical materialism. What did you get? Yes, either in the third copy, or in the thirty-third. And no one knows, but it couldn’t be that in some bearded century, for example, in the fifth or tenth copy in that monastery, where it (some kind of copy of something completely un-Christian) was supposedly kept and copied, The monks did not wrap the herring. And when the father-librarian arrived with the revision, they did not compose the lost “ancient work” on their own.
    6)
    and the name “Russia” itself was introduced into state document circulation by Ivan IV the Terrible in the second half of the XNUMXth century.
    Hmm, Abraham Kreskes and his son Yehuda Kreskes didn’t know. And by 1375 they drew the Atlas
    1. +1
      21 October 2023 12: 37
      7)
      “History is the result of human experience; We can forget experiences only when we no longer need them, meanwhile, even now, at every step we come across facts that are incomprehensible to us from a modern point of view, but can only be explained by history” (E.P. Savelyev, beginning of the XNUMXth century).

      So, before Savelyev, no one spoke out about History? Or Savelyev didn’t know?
      That's how they expressed it. I will give some statements about the quality of History.

      "God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be precisely because sometimes they provide this service that God tolerates their existence."

      Samuel Butler


      History has been rewritten to such a state that even historians themselves are at a loss about what the word “history” means.

      David Bowie


      History lacks the main feature of science, the subordination of known facts... It represents knowledge, not science.

      Arthur Schopenhauer

      History has the same relation to truth as theology has to faith, namely, no.

      Robert Heinlein


      Perhaps a more accurate description of what never happened is the historian's inalienable privilege and specialty.

      Oscar Wilde


      History is the quintessence of gossip.

      Thomas Carlyle

      Our entire history is a fiction that everyone agrees with.

      Вольтер

      History is just a fable accepted by everyone.

      B. Fontenel

      A brilliant story is rarely completely true.

      S. Johnson

      There are many pages in the history of any nation that would be magnificent if they were true.

      D. Didro

      If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, there may be nothing left at all.

      Stanislav E. Lec

      The information that the ancients did not have was very extensive. laughing

      Mark Twain

      History is the product of the secretions of the glands of a million historians.

      John Steinbeck

      Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and only History has escaped His control.

      Zbigniew Hedgehog

      No one has changed the history of mankind like historians.

      E. Mackenzie

      History is too serious a matter to be left to historians.

      Ian McLeod
  24. +3
    21 October 2023 17: 35
    What does this illiterate bastard have to do with history?
  25. +1
    21 October 2023 17: 50
    Not so long ago (before the revolution) in the North, bringing a flower to Rus' meant bringing it into the light (records from some ethnographer).
    1. +1
      21 October 2023 18: 42
      Found Stanislav Timofeevich Romanovsky "Rus".
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      22 October 2023 13: 50
      Translated from Sanskrit, “Rusya” means “bright”, “holy”. In the north there are many river names similar to the names of rivers in India.
  26. -1
    21 October 2023 20: 07
    Something happened? Did the author of those articles sell his account to some Samson graphomaniac?
    Dear critics, the conclusion “THERE ARE ONLY TWO OPINIONS, THE FIRST IS MY AND THE SECOND IS WRONG” is only good for military service, but it is unacceptable in matters of ancient history.
    The article specifically states:
    “I’ll immediately make a reservation: there is no generally accepted (considered by everyone to be correct) answer to these questions, as they say in such cases: regarding the named concepts (terms), historians have separate opinions, which often do not coincide with each other.

    Or in another way: These questions are debatable, because due to the scarcity of ancient historical documents, they move from a purely historical plane to an ethnological and even philosophical plane.

    And, as I noted above, discussions often descend into disputes about the correct interpretation of the meanings of individual words or phrases used by historians as terms.
    So I I do not insist on accepting the following as absolute truth,"

    Read this 10 times in a row, maybe it will dawn on you that if the judgments on the ancient historical issues covered in the article do not coincide with the conclusions of your favorite historians, this does not mean at all that these conclusions are wrong and are nonsense.
    All these are HYPOTHESES and it has not yet been proven which of them are true and which are false.
    Therefore, you may not agree with the hypotheses put forward by the same Ilovaisky (although I strongly doubt that any of the critics have thoughtfully read all of his works), but by calling them nonsense you are only demonstrating your own ignorance.
    Or simply put: a historically educated person understands that any of the hypotheses put forward (with the exception of the craziest ones) has the right to exist until its inconsistency is objectively proven.

    I wish everyone happiness in their personal lives hi
    1. +4
      21 October 2023 20: 47
      A historically educated person understands that any of the hypotheses put forward (except for the craziest ones) has the right to exist until its inconsistency is objectively proven.

      A historically educated person will not tolerate such nonsense even in the form of a hypothesis.
      1. 0
        21 October 2023 21: 10
        On any site there are individuals who indiscriminately criticize other people’s articles without bothering themselves with even primitive argumentation.
        And in general, I noticed that there are always more negative comments than positive ones, because people who liked the article usually don’t write posts but simply upvote (I do this myself).
        So I'm not mad at anyone
        1. +3
          22 October 2023 14: 09
          On any site there are individuals who indiscriminately criticize other people’s articles without bothering themselves with even primitive argumentation

          You see, first of all, the authors criticize themselves with such articles. As for the argumentation. If a certain author here published an article stating that the Sun revolves around the Earth, citing Purbach’s “New Planetary Hypotheses,” would you debate with him?
    2. +4
      21 October 2023 20: 53
      Unfortunately, your sources apparently are not limited to Ilovaisky and other respected historians of the century before last, or you have shown a very wild imagination in interpreting their works in your own way.
      Savelyev can hardly be called a historian at all.
      The fact is that the historians of the XNUMXth century, to whose opinion you deign to refer, in their works and conclusions relied exclusively on the body of written sources they had - there were no other sources of historical knowledge, therefore, interpreting what they read differently, they could come to the most various conclusions, build a wide variety of hypotheses, without going beyond the scientific framework.
      Now the body of sources of historical knowledge has been significantly expanded. This applies to both those introduced into scientific circulation in the XNUMXth century. written sources unknown to either Ilovaisky, Solovyov or any of their other contemporaries, as well as other sources, for example, archaeological research and (or) data from related sciences, such as genetics, paleobotany, etc.
      Thanks to these data, historical science has managed to very seriously narrow the scope within which one can build hypotheses about how and what could have happened in those distant times about which you decided to speculate. In other words, historical science cannot always say exactly “how it was,” but often, with all scientifically based categoricalness, it can say how it did not and could not be.
      So: what you wrote about here did not and could not have happened. No way.
      These hypotheses that you have issued here have long been rejected by science as completely unproven, directly contradicting the available materials, which have been cross-checked by a variety of sources.
      If you didn’t know this, this characterizes you as a researcher in the most unfortunate way.
      If they knew and how Fomenko still wrote what they wrote, this characterizes you as a person in the most deplorable way.
      Choose what suits you best, and let me take my leave. hi
      1. -4
        21 October 2023 21: 16
        Unfortunately, your sources, apparently, are not limited to Ilovaisky and other respected historians of the century before last
        SEEMED to be a good word, lean on it more often.
        I’m embarrassed to ask: have you read his works yourself, or:
        Newspapers write about some Pasternak. As if there were such a writer. I still didn’t know anything about him, I’d never read his books... he’s not a writer, but a White Guard
        ? smile

        Now the body of sources of historical knowledge has been significantly expanded.
        D really?
        List historical sources, in your opinion, unknown to Ilovaisky, can you imagine, or the answer will be typical:
        GOOGLE TO THE RESCUE ? smile
        Savelyev can hardly be called a historian at all.
        And what is the difficulty? winked
        1. +3
          22 October 2023 00: 15
          It's late already, so I'm answering offhand.
          I read Ilovaisky probably a quarter of a century ago. Like Karamzin, Solovyov, Tatishchev and others. Tatishchev, though I refreshed my memory not so long ago, but not completely, but the points that interested me. The last author from this galaxy, whom I got to relatively recently, is Ivan Belyaev.
          I can’t easily present a list of written sources like this. But I’ll remember a couple of examples.
          The first is the correspondence of Alexander Nevsky with the Pope regarding the adoption of Catholicism by the Russians. These documents were discovered and made public in the second half of the last century.
          The second is a whole corpus of Chinese sources related to the Mongol Empire, including the Western Campaign of the Mongols. They were published and introduced into scientific circulation already in our century.
          As for not written, but other sources of historical knowledge, I don’t see any point in talking about anything if you don’t understand it yourself.
          In the last century, archeology has made huge strides forward and provided an incredible amount of information for researchers. Often this information is very valuable and radically changes some of the ideas we inherited from the century before last.
          Population genetics (not the kind that Klesov breeds, but real science) provides a huge layer of information about the migrations of ancient peoples.
          Modern technical means with which long-known artifacts are studied. New research in the field of chronology and source studies. Historians of the past could not even dream of dendrochronological or radiocarbon analysis. With the help of paleobotany, Oleg Dvurechensky found the Kulikovo field, which largely allowed for a new look at the course of this battle.
          Sorry, I’m answering this offhand.
          Savelyev can hardly be called a historian, since he is a real Cossack chauvinist and, like any radically minded subject, is completely devoid of objectivity. In terms of his level of scientific knowledge, he never rose above a local historian-patriot of his small homeland.
          Quote: Lewww
          A specific question for you: how, in your opinion, can modern archeology or genetics refute this version or, on the contrary, confirm it?

          Is this about Rurik?
          I developed the theme of Rurik here on VO in my articles, you may be curious. There is also about genetic research and archaeological research.
          Briefly, the descendants of Rurik have a common gene, the source of which is located in Sweden.
          The accumulation of archaeological data (indicating, for example, the intensification of contacts between the Novgorodians and Jutland precisely during the period of the hypothetical calling of the Varangians) makes it increasingly possible to identify Rurik as Rorik of Friesland. But this is very short and simplified.
          And I have absolutely nothing to fantasize about here; the facts I have presented can be verified.
          1. -1
            22 October 2023 01: 38
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Is this about Rurik?
            I developed the theme of Rurik here on VO in my articles, you may be curious. There is also about genetic research and archaeological research.
            Briefly, the descendants of Rurik have a common gene, the source of which is located in Sweden.
            The accumulation of archaeological data (indicating, for example, the intensification of contacts between the Novgorodians and Jutland precisely during the period of the hypothetical calling of the Varangians) makes it increasingly possible to identify Rurik as Rorik of Friesland. But this is very short and simplified.
            And I have absolutely nothing to fantasize about here; the facts I have presented can be verified.


            The fact is that the remains of Rurik himself, his direct descendants and associates, have not been clearly identified. Therefore, any conclusions regarding its Varangian origin are a subjective point of view. Even if they are very authoritative. We must not forget that in those days questions of origin were checked very seriously. Mistakes cost lives.
          2. -3
            22 October 2023 08: 23
            The first is the correspondence between Alexander Nevsky and the Pope regarding the adoption of Catholicism by the Russians.
            Now explain how this correspondence corrects Ilovaisky’s theory about the origin of the Slavs and Russes, and also explains the origin of these names?
            The second is a whole corpus of Chinese sources related to the Mongol Empire, including the Western Campaign of the Mongols. They were published and introduced into scientific circulation already in our century.
            similar question
            As for not written, but other sources of historical knowledge, I don’t see any point in talking about anything if you don’t understand it yourself.
            a frankly demagogic argument.
            Is this about Rurik?
            I developed the theme of Rurik here on VO in my articles, you may be curious. There is also about genetic research and archaeological research.
            Briefly, the descendants of Rurik have a common gene, the source of which is located in Sweden.
            My dear, you really surprise me.
            Why did you decide that, considering that genetic examination of Rurik’s remains was not carried out, therefore science has not established who exactly are his descendants?
            Moreover, even The remains of the first reliably known Russian princes Oleg and Igor have not been found or examined.
            So tell tales about the benefits of genetic testing in the question of the origin of the first Russian princes to the grandmothers sitting on the bench near the entrance
            Accumulation of archaeological data (indicating, for example, the intensification of contacts between the Novgorodians and Jutland
            do not clarify in any way the question of whether Rurik is a historical person or he is a fairy-tale character.
            You are too prone to fantasizing and have little idea about the methods of conducting historical research

            By the way, I strongly doubt that you are familiar with Ilovaisky’s works, and I don’t understand why you don’t want to admit it
            1. +3
              22 October 2023 13: 52
              There’s something I don’t understand: have you decided to play the fool with me here? They say I don’t understand what we’re talking about?
              I wrote about Alexander Nevsky and the Mongols as an example of the fact that the corpus of written sources is replenished over time. But if you want specifically about the Slavs and Rus, here is an example - the works of Ibn Fadlan. They were introduced into scientific circulation in the first half of the twentieth century, so Ilovaisky could not have been familiar with them. And in them, however, it is clearly written that the Rus and the Slavs are different peoples, and the funeral rite of the Rus is described in detail, which exactly corresponds to the Scandinavian funeral rite. Yesterday I simply didn’t remember about Ibn Fadlan.
              Regarding genetic testing, the same question: do you want to seem stupider than you are or are you really that stupid?
              Now there are people living on the planet - descendants of aristocratic families who trace their ancestry to Rurik. Their genealogy has been confirmed with varying degrees of certainty. About two dozen of them consented to genetic research. Two thirds of those studied had a common gene, that is, they actually descend from one common ancestor who lived in the second half of the XNUMXth century. What more do you need?
              You will now become stubborn and begin to tell me that until a grave is found with a clear indication that Rurik is buried here, it is impossible to talk about the historicity of this character... Well, well, it is your right to be or seem stupid, I will not do it in any way I don't dispute it. The ability to evaluate information from various sources in its entirety, to connect indirect data into a specific system and draw appropriate conclusions is not given to everyone, and the absence of this skill in itself does not at all indicate stupidity - simply the lack of a scientific mindset.
              Another thing may indicate stupidity - a refusal to perceive information already analyzed by specialists in the form of specific conclusions. If you are not smart enough to understand how people came to certain conclusions, this does not mean that the conclusions are wrong.
              As for Ilovaisky, don’t doubt it, I’ve read it. Have you read anything besides Ilovaisky? Rybakov, Kargalov, Kirpichnikov, Melnikov, Nazarenko, Lebedev, Alekseev, Gorsky, Danilevsky, Pchelov? Have you even heard of such names?
              1. -2
                22 October 2023 15: 35
                There’s something I don’t understand: have you decided to play the fool with me here? They say I don’t understand what we’re talking about?
                I wrote about Alexander Nevsky and the Mongols as an example of the fact that the corpus of written sources is replenished over time. But if you want specifically about the Slavs and Rus, here’s an example for you - works of Ibn Fadlan. They were introduced into scientific circulation in the first half of the twentieth century, so Ilovaisky could not have been familiar with them.
                My dear, you are the one playing the fool here.
                Why the hell did you bring me Alexander Nevsky’s correspondence if this source has no influence on Ilovaisky’s work?

                Ilovaisky mentions the works of Ibn Fadlan - this is already about the question of your criticism of Ilovaisky’s works, with whom you are clearly not familiar, however, this fact does not prevent you from giving them a negative rating.
                You will now become stubborn and start telling me that until a grave is found with a clear indication that Rurik is buried here, it is impossible to talk about the historicity of this character... Well, well, this your right to be or appear stupid, I do not dispute it in any way.
                My dear, it’s the other way around: it’s you who are stupid, not me, because you insist that genetic examination of Rurik's descendants can establish their relationship with Rurik despite the fact that STILL NOT FOUND NEITHER THE GRAVE OF RURIK, NOR HIS DESCENDANTS (according to the chronicle allegedly his first descendant, Prince. Igor).

                How do you even realistically imagine the possibility of conducting a genetic examination of the relationship of the FOUNDER OF THE CLAN with people who are supposedly his descendants, if you do not have the genetic material of the founder of the clan?? belay

                I have never read more nonsense, I can only wish you success in your “historical research”
                1. +2
                  22 October 2023 16: 42
                  I can only repeat what was said:
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  If you are not smart enough to understand how people came to certain conclusions, this does not mean that the conclusions are wrong.

                  Again, briefly and as simplified as possible, in a form accessible to you.
                  There are chronicle evidence of the calling of the Varangians, whose leader was a certain Rurik. The said Rurik was, according to the same evidence, the founder of the dynasty. The descendants of representatives of this dynasty are still alive. Their relationship and the presence of a common ancestor who lived at just the right time has been proven by genetic examinations.
                  Further, just at the time when the calling of the Varangians took place, a certain Rorik, the nephew of the Danish king, an exile, was active in Europe, either serving the descendants of Charlemagne or fighting with them. From time to time he disappeared from European annals, then reappeared. Where he was at this time was either unknown or uninteresting to European chroniclers. Chroniclers also do not report his death.
                  Moreover, it was precisely the third quarter of the XNUMXth century. in Ladoga, the consequences of a certain unrest (the destruction of the Lyubsha settlement) and an increase in contacts with Denmark were recorded (there are even burials with a funeral rite characteristic of Denmark of the same period, that is, people from Denmark lived and died in Ladoga), which lasts, however, not for long - about half a century, after which objects of Danish material culture are not recorded.
                  What hypothesis would you propose based on these facts?
                  Ilovaisky can be forgiven - he had no data on archeology and genetics. He did not know the Xanten and Bertin annals as well as we do now, if he knew them at all, he did not have the opportunity to read Ibn Fadlan and much more. He based his hypotheses on what he had. He was wrong. And not only in matters of the Slavs and Rurik.
                  And you... You just cooked up a hack, trying to talk about issues about which you have the vaguest idea. They concocted it and don’t want to admit it, citing the authority of a scientist a hundred years ago, the fallacy of some of whose views has long been proven and completely obvious.
                  Read more, write less. I have nothing to add to what has been said. Goodbye.
                  1. +1
                    22 October 2023 17: 48
                    Mikhail, is there really nothing to do?

                    A woodpecker burst into the section, proclaiming that not a single historical hypothesis or theory could be verified. And if so, then his liquid is no worse than any other intellectual product. But since it is also a hypothesis, it now needs to be refuted exclusively by scientific methods.
                    This has never happened before, has it?

                    Why argue whether it would be better to reward this glorious figure, noting his services to the progressive Russian-Massagetian public?

                    To our little history buff from the grateful Russian-Scythian-Sarmatians straight from the land of Egypt in memory of the exploits of the illustrious with the autograph of Ilovaisky
                    1. +1
                      22 October 2023 22: 11
                      In general, you are right, Denis, but the fact is that I did not consider this particular author to be a idiot. Trying is not torture. We'll see later. smile
                  2. -1
                    22 October 2023 22: 20
                    Mikhail, I read your publication on VO “The origin of Rurik in the light of modern genetic research”, and was once again amazed at what incredible magnitude human stupidity can reach if it is constantly fed with various pseudoscientific nonsense.

                    1. Your publication is based on an article unknown to anyone Vladimir Gennadievich Volkov, published on the Internet.

                    2. In it, he writes that allegedly at the beginning of the 21st century, the commercial company Family Tree DNA (Texas, USA) conducted a genetic study of the gene. material allegedly provided to her by 23 citizens, claiming that they are descendants of the first Russian prince Rurik.
                    And supposedly, according to the results of the researcher, these citizens were conditionally divided into 3 groups (I quote):
                    «For ease of interpretation, we call representatives of different haplogroups, according to the documentary pedigree of those descended from Rurik, but belonging to different haplogroups - Rurikovich N1c1, Rurikovich R1a1 and Rurikovich I2a.»

                    «Haplogroup N1c1 most likely arose on the borderlands of Western Mongolia and Southern Siberia, according to various estimates, 8-9 thousand years ago[3] Representatives of this haplogroup migrated in ancient times in different directions, including to the west.»

                    «Rurikovich R1a1 Princes Obolensky, Volkonsky, Baryatinsky, as well as Shuisky, Karpov, Beloselsky-Belozersky and Drutsky-Sokolinsky belong to haplogroup R1a1. Haplogroup R1a1 is distributed over a large area in Europe and Asia. With the highest frequency this haplogroup is found among Czechs, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Altaians, Kyrgyz, Khakassians, Tajiks and Indians».

                    «Rurikovich I2a. As a result of testing a representative of the Svyatopolk-Chetvertinsky family, it was revealed that he belonged to haplogroup I2a. This haplogroup is more common in the Balkans - among Bosnians and Harvats from 40 to 60%, among Serbs and Macedonians 20-30%, about the same in Moldova among the Gagauz. In Western Ukraine, the frequency of distribution of haplogroup I2a reaches 15-16%. In Belarus, the regions with the highest frequency are its western part (22%) and eastern Polesie (27%), in the central part there is about 14-16%, and a sharp decrease in the north of the country, where the frequency drops to 7%. In Russia, the frequency gradient is also directed from the southwest (Belgorod, Kursk regions 18-20%)»

                    Already at this stage it becomes clear that the geographical dispersion of the results obtained is so wide that completely excludes the possibility of making accurate conclusions about the nationality of the ancestor (or rather ancestors) of the surveyed citizens.

                    But alas, the author of the publication is never embarrassed by this fact, and he allegedly based on these data concludes that the study CONFIDENTLY PROVESthat Ruoik was a Scandinavian and most likely a Swede. Because Vladimir Monomakh (whose genetic material was not studied) belonged to haplogroup N1c1.

                    And you present this conclusion in your publication on VO, and on the basis of it, in addition, you assure that this is a genetic study SCIENTIFICALLY convincingly proves HISTORICALITY OF RURIK and accurately determines nationality

                    If you are seriously confident that such publications are 100% proof of the historicity of Rurik and his nationality, then I won’t even sympathize with you, because it’s pointless - it won’t help.
                    There is only hope for the efforts of doctors, and even then the chances of a cure are not great
                    1. +1
                      22 October 2023 22: 59
                      Master of Trilobite (Mikhail), at least try to understand the simplest things:

                      In order to put forward, based on genetic research, assumption about the nationality of Rurik (if he really existed and is not the result of an invention of the chroniclers), required to have genetic material (bones or teeth) which without any doubt is identified as RURIK MATERIAL, and not some other one.

                      As far as I know, no such material has been discovered to date, even the remains of the first princes Oleg and Igor not found.

                      However, your level in matters of conducting historical research is obvious to me - it was in vain that I got involved in a meaningless polemic with you
  27. 0
    21 October 2023 20: 35
    And I also want to make an announcement:

    Next week I’m going to publish on VO three parts of my historical and technical article about the Russian officer V.R. Float.
    Therefore, for those who have not yet lost faith in my ability to write something sensible, I recommend keeping track of VO publications coming out at the end of the next page. weeks (I don’t know which section the moderators will put it in)
  28. -1
    21 October 2023 22: 24
    Trilobite Master
    Now the body of sources of historical knowledge has been significantly expanded. This applies to both those introduced into scientific circulation in the XNUMXth century. written sources unknown to either Ilovaisky, Solovyov or any of their other contemporaries, as well as other sources, for example, archaeological research and (or) data from related sciences, such as genetics, paleobotany, etc.
    ...If you didn’t know this, this characterizes you as a researcher in the most unfortunate way.
    Critics like these touch me laughing

    For example, Ilovaisky adhered to the point of view that the first Russian prince Rurik was a fairy-tale character, and the first reliably known Russian princes were Oleg and Igor.
    And they were not Scandinavians at all, but Russians.

    A specific question for you: how, in your opinion, can modern archeology or genetics refute this version or, on the contrary, confirm it?
    Well, let's imagine winked
  29. +2
    21 October 2023 23: 20
    It smelled of stale Zadornov, Slavic-Aryans, independence, peremozhnost and the struggle for the status of a digger of the Black Sea.
  30. +3
    21 October 2023 23: 34
    Author, what are you even talking about? You will also write that the Russians were once called Turks! How could they be called Sakas, Massagetae?
    The Massagetae were part of the Saka tribal union and fought against the Persians of Cyrus! There were no Russians there. Read ancient Greek historians, Chinese, Persian, European sources.
    I completely agree with the person who mentioned that you are stealing the history of others. The shores should not be confused, after all!
    Because of people like you, various international conflicts begin. conflicts!
    1. -1
      22 October 2023 02: 17
      Author, what are you even talking about?


      It is not the author’s fault that someone created a classification of haplogroups and assigned the Latin letter R (Russian) to the remains found on the territory of Russia. The author is also not to blame for the fact that it later turned out that more than 50% of the population of Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are carriers of this haplogroup (R1A). Any of these people can call themselves Russian, Tajik, Afghan, Pakistani with every right to do so, by right of blood. Despite the fact that we are separated by thousands of years and thousands of kilometers, religions, traditions, different cultures and different histories. We are all, ultimately, the sons of one father and came from the same womb. It is a miracle that we managed to survive on this earth, thanks to our ancestors, and for this we should be grateful to them and do everything possible so that our descendants do not disappear. By and large, we and the Western Europeans have nothing to share, since We are blood and close relatives with them (haplogroup R1B more than 60%), but they probably didn’t really believe it yet if they behave this way. Something like this, although pretentious, is true.
      1. 0
        22 October 2023 08: 54
        It is not the author’s fault that someone created a classification of haplogroups and assigned the Latin letter R (Russian) to the remains found on the territory of Russia. The author is also not to blame for the fact that it later turned out that more than 50% of the population of Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are carriers of this haplogroup (R1A). Any of these people can call themselves Russian, Tajik, Afghan, Pakistani
        This conclusion can also be traced in Ilovaisky’s works, only without using the word “genetics”.

        He expresses the idea that in the course of historical development, representatives of ancient peoples sometimes mix with each other so much that it is sometimes difficult to accurately establish their belonging to some ancient people or tribe.
        Those. all views on this issue are (and apparently will always be) debatable nature, which is clearly written in my article (it’s a pity that some critics didn’t get it)

        And he also notes that it is rarely possible to accurately establish the actual historical path of peoples at the stage when they do not yet have their own written language (and sometimes even at the stage when they do have it - for example, ancient Russian chronicles where fairy tales are often mixed with true stories)
      2. +1
        22 October 2023 18: 03
        are carriers of this haplogroup

        Be careful with haplogroups. And it turns out that the Caucasians are Russian brothers of the Mongoloid Kyrgyz.
        then more than 50% of the population of Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are carriers of this haplogroup

        And what? The migrations of ancient Indo-Europeans are a good illustration. What do Russians and Slavs have to do with it? During the period of these migrations they were not even in the project.
        1. +1
          22 October 2023 23: 18
          Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
          Be careful with haplogroups. And it turns out that the Caucasians are Russian brothers of the Mongoloid Kyrgyz.


          What is unusual or bad about this? According to official science, We all came out of Africa and descended from Adam and Eve. Is not it?

          Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
          And what? The migrations of ancient Indo-Europeans are a good illustration. What do Russians and Slavs have to do with it? During the period of these migrations they were not even in the project.

          Russians and Slavs may not have existed yet, which is not at all a fact, but there were Aryans. Russians, the European part of Russia, are carriers of the unchanged Aryan haplogroup. Consequently, among the Russians there are direct descendants of that Adam and that Eve from whom the Aryans descended. If a man or woman moves to another area, they marry with representatives of other haplogroups and the likelihood of mutations increases. That's all.

          I will repeat especially for you:

          It has long been known that Etruscans who called themselves Rasenna and who fought the early Romans to defend their territory had a very advanced culture with complex architecture, burials and fine grave art exhibiting the development of their technology.

          The Etruscans actually descended from pastoralists (sheep herders) who moved into the region from the steps during the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age from approximately 6,000 BC to 3,500 BC.

          The enormous region of the steps, in what is now Hungary, the Ukraine, and Central Asia, is, of course, part of the area where all Indo-European languages ​​originated. This is a fact which makes these new DNA results even more perplexing—and almost maddening—for linguists since language is almost always a determinant of culture.

          The Etruscans actually descended from pastoralists (sheep farmers) who moved into the region from the steppes during the Late Neolithic and Bronze Ages from around 6000 BC. to 3500 BC

          The vast region of steppes in what is now Hungary, Ukraine and Central Asia is, of course, part of the area of ​​origin of all Indo-European languages. This is a fact that makes these new DNA findings even more confusing—and almost maddening—for linguists, since language is almost always the defining factor of culture.

          1. +1
            28 October 2023 17: 43
            What is unusual or bad about this?

            Of course nothing bad. Kyrgyz and Russians are siblings. And that the races are different, let’s not pay attention to the little things?
            It has long been known that the Etruscans, who called themselves Rasenni

            There are a lot of peoples with similar names. And what?
            but there were arias.

            Aryans are Indo-Aryans and Irano-Aryans. Russians, Slavs and other Europeans are another branch of the Indo-Europeans. Kirghiz are Turks from Altai. Nothing in common, roughly speaking. There is only one haplogroup. The prevalence of haplogroups depends on a fairly random distribution of genes, so it is too early to draw conclusions on a global scale from them, at least.
            had a very advanced culture with complex architecture, burials and fine grave art, testifying to the development of their technology.

            And... The Russians began to have all this only one and a half millennia after the Etruscans. And no cultural continuity with the Etruscans. What connection?
            The Etruscans actually descended from pastoralists (sheep farmers) who moved into the region from the steppes during the Late Neolithic and Bronze Ages from around 6000 BC. to 3500 BC

            So half of Europe migrated from our steppes there. What does this have to do with Rus'? You won’t even be able to find cultural parallels between the Etruscans and Russians, because they are separated by one and a half thousand years. The fact that the Novgorod and Northern Italian temples of the Middle Ages are somewhat similar - so there is only one source, there is no need to pull the Etruscans by the ears. Stop fantasizing after Klesov.
    2. 0
      22 October 2023 08: 48
      Author, what are you even talking about? You will also write that the Russians were once called Turks! How could they be called Sakas, Massagetae?
      Colleague, I wrote in the article that the authorship of the theory presented does not belong to me, but to the Russian historian D.I. Ilovaisky.
      And I just share his opinion, because I carefully studied his works and consider Ilovaisky a serious researcher who understands well how to approach the study of ancient history.

      And I also explained that the stated essence ONE OF THE EXISTING THEORIES, i.e. ASSUMPTIONS that need further re-verification.

      He also explained that there are NO judgments on the issue of the origin of the Slavs and Rus, which are a proven historical truth.
      Any theories are debatable, if you don’t understand this, I sympathize
  31. +1
    21 October 2023 23: 35
    I read some comments and remembered an excerpt from Zhvanetsky:
    In Yalta, Sochi and other southern cities, as soon as it gets dark, men rush into the rooms. To the light of the lamp. And they circle and sit.
    One or two large ones, three or four small ones.
    It’s the same at VO: as soon as someone publishes a historical article, critics immediately swoop in.
    And they circle and sit. One or two large ones, three or four small ones laughing
    In fact, they cannot object to anything, but they do not hesitate to indiscriminately accuse the author of ignorance
  32. 0
    22 October 2023 09: 32
    When an analysis of the relationship between the names of the tribes and their alphabet or the alphabet of other peoples is carried out, then it will be possible to understand how these names were obtained. In the meantime, our ideology is such that the pagans did not have a written language. And a lot of people talk about the Varangians, Vikings, etc. nothing is mentioned about writing.
    Take, for example, the texts on the Hanseatic League and Livonia. Please, everything is spelled out, even the name of the city Riga.
  33. -1
    22 October 2023 10: 30
    Quote from DiViZ
    When an analysis of the relationship between the names of the tribes and their alphabet or the alphabet of other peoples is carried out, then it will be possible to understand how these names were obtained.
    Do you understand what you are offering?

    1. The alphabet (writing) did not exist among many ancient tribes.

    2. The alphabet of many ancient peoples was not their own invention, but the result of borrowing (writing) from other peoples.

    Thus your proposal is absurd.

    The alphabet in most cases does not serve as the key to understanding the nature of the origin of the names of the nationalities of ancient tribes.
    Here, only Ilovaisky’s consideration is completely correct:
    Any people always goes down in history under two types of names:

    1) by which he calls himself;

    2) which are assigned to him by the surrounding peoples (with whom he fights, or neighbors or trades), usually choosing a nickname for him from their own language.
    Here is the key to unraveling the mysteries of the names of peoples, or rather the initial stage of research, which usually ends with the construction of another theory, the historical truth of which cannot be verified
  34. -1
    22 October 2023 22: 25
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Still, what a fertile ground here at VO for all sorts of such pseudo-historical defecations, how quickly non-similar excretions are collected by local flies, who for some reason consider themselves patriots on the sole grounds that, out of their own stupidity and ignorance, they deny the provisions of historical science.
    In terms of evidence, the article is absolutely no different from the huge mass of articles that have been posted here for decades, including by you. All the same unfoundedness and complete lack of documentary evidence. The only thing is that the unfoundedness that you and your colleagues post here, due to its repeated repetition over the past two hundred years, in your eyes has acquired the appearance of established historical facts. And you loudly call a collection of such fantasies “historical science.” Although, let me remind you that this “science” was created by people who, by your definition, should be called folk historians, since none of them had a specialized historical education. Not to mention the diploma of a “candidate” or “doctor”, so to speak, of “historical sciences”.
    I don’t understand why you’re so angry?
    Just in time for the unforgettable Felix Krivin:
    At the boarding stop
    He shouts in noble anger:
    “Why are there crowds on the site?
    It’s completely free up there ahead!”
    But just let him get through,
    How he starts grumbling angrily:
    “Keep it down, hey, don’t press it!

    You recognize those who, with their fantasies, managed to make their way to the middle and even to the head of the lineup. And you categorically do not accept those who are late. Although the product is the same for everyone.
  35. -1
    22 October 2023 22: 33
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    In the last century, archeology has made huge strides forward and provided an incredible amount of information for researchers. Often this information is very valuable and radically changes some of the ideas we inherited from the century before last.
    Oh really ? And what was it that was changed “fundamentally”? What ideas, left to you from the century before last, were “fundamentally changed”?
    Actually fundamentally nothing in the official version of the history of the Old World (compared to the version in the mid-19th century) was of course changed. Yes, little things. When, at the end of the century before last, historians became too cramped in the available historical plots, for example, the Hittites, Sumerians and some other small things were introduced into the History of the Old World.
    About archeology. Archeology itself cannot do anything. It completely depends on the official version of history. Archeology itself is simply an integral part of History.
    1. +2
      22 October 2023 23: 20
      It would be more correct to call archeology one of the ways to test the truth of various historical theories, or the foundation for building such
      1. +1
        23 October 2023 02: 08
        Quote: Lewww
        It would be more correct to call archeology one of the ways to test the truth of various historical theories, or the foundation for building such


        In reality, archeology is blind, with no methods for identifying remains. Only in combination with genetics, geology, pathological anatomy and forensic medicine can we obtain some reliable results that allow us to draw any convincing conclusions about a particular culture. History is a free, subjective interpretation of archaeological data, based on the “authority” of the interpreter. The higher the authority, the more free assumptions that are not questioned. Archeology operates exclusively with artifacts that could have come from other layers, or could have been delivered from other areas and cultures as a result of exchange, acquisition, which in no way characterizes the owners. Genetics, forensic medicine, and geology make it possible to find out the history of the origin of artifacts and their movement in time and space. Also, thanks to genetics, it is possible to trace the transformation of ancient cultures, under the influence of certain haplogroups that are currently represented or have disappeared forever. If the analysis of soil layers allows us to determine the reliable composition of the flora and fauna of a given region from the remains of genetic material, this is a huge breakthrough in research. In fact, you don't even need to dig for basic research. Drill a hole, do an analysis of the layers and decide whether to go further and what you can find there.
        1. +1
          23 October 2023 10: 35
          Quote from Eugene Zaboy
          History is a free, subjective interpretation of archaeological data,
          Well, I completely disagree with you.

          History is, first of all, an interpretation of what is fixed on objects and information carriers.
          These are rock (wall) inscriptions, drawings on various objects, later handwritten documents (when writing had already appeared), as well as legends and traditions of the native land.
          The latter have a huge influence on ancient history.
          In later times, reliable means of recording history appeared: photographs and film and video materials.

          Historical theories are built on their basis, and archeology is usually used as a tool to verify the correctness of these versions.
          But sometimes archaeological finds are also the first step in building a theory.

          As for genetics, this magical science unfortunately does not have “long range”.
          For example, if genetic material is available, it is possible to more or less accurately determine the degree of relationship between the 1st and 2nd, 3rd generations.
          Relationship with the 4th-5th generation is already possible in some cases in the presence of some rare genetic mutation.
          And kinship with 6 and subsequent generations is fortune telling on coffee grounds - the degree of accuracy is insufficient for indisputable conclusions
          1. +2
            23 October 2023 18: 09
            Quote: Lewww
            Well, I completely disagree with you.

            History is, first of all, an interpretation of what is fixed on objects and information carriers.
            These are rock (wall) inscriptions, drawings on various objects, later handwritten documents (when writing had already appeared), as well as legends and traditions of the native land.
            The latter have a huge influence on ancient history.
            In later times, reliable means of recording history appeared: photographs and film and video materials.


            You contradict yourself.
            The researcher of rock paintings does not know what the author wanted to convey. He interprets the drawings based on what he sees and his current beliefs. This is a 100% subjective assessment. Even the author of the drawings will interpret them differently each time.

            Quote: Lewww
            As for genetics, this magical science unfortunately does not have “long range”.
            Genetic studies of the soil layers of the Siberian taiga made it possible to establish the exact time of the disappearance of mammoths.
  36. +1
    23 October 2023 14: 10
    Quote: Lewww
    History is, first of all, an interpretation of what is fixed on objects and information carriers.

    Sorry, but just think about what came first - the official version of history or archeology?
    First, history was created. I hope you will not deny that History was created on the basis of the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, and even more specifically on the basis of Daniel’s prophecy about four successive kingdoms. And archeology... yes, here you go. I have already written several times on this topic.
    The problem is that archeology is not a descriptive discipline in its own right. All archaeologists are a subspecies of historians. And everything that archaeologists (archaeological historians) find, they drive into a long-established historical framework. They simply don’t know how to do it any other way. The historical school is so conservative that any history student who even slightly dares to show his skepticism about history will be immediately expelled by the system.
    I showed the example of Israeli archaeologists.
    For example, Israeli archaeologists need to find the city “N” mentioned in the Bible. So they take and read in the Old Testament that such and such a prophet or some other figure in the times of prehistoric non-materialism left Jerusalem on a camel to Tire or Sidon and after two days of travel spent the night in the city “N”. How can Israeli archaeologists solve the problem of finding this city "N". Their algorithm is as follows. You need to stand at the supposed gates of “ancient Jerusalem”, take the direction to modern “Tire” or “Sidon” (or to those places where historians have “precisely established” these cities were located), estimate the average speed of a camel and ... use a calculator to calculate, where that same prophet or other figure could have ended up after two days of travel.
    Then archaeologists come to that place and start digging. It happens that in that very place some Byzantine or Arabic or Persian or Turkish caravanserai is immediately dug out from under the sand or other soil. Hurray, the champagne is opened, the city “N” mentioned in the Bible has been found.
    Option two. They started digging, but found nothing. No problem. Israeli archaeologists are simply expanding their search sector. Maybe the camel was super fast or, on the contrary, lame. Or maybe the prophet rode on a donkey, but they wrote, they say, on a camel. Maybe that same prophet or other figure spent the night somewhere on the first night, but the Bible does not say about this. Maybe he got lost in the desert. In short, Israeli archaeologists are expanding the search sector, additionally hiring Arabs or someone else to dig in the desert, and they dig, dig, dig... until they stumble upon the sand-covered ruins of some village (Byzantine, Arab, Turkish...). It is then announced that the city “N” mentioned in the Bible has been found, and champagne is opened.
    1. 0
      23 October 2023 15: 50
      Sorry, but just think about what came first - the official version of history or archeology?
      First, history was created.
      So it seems like I didn’t dispute this.
      But here it is important to decide on the terminology, what we mean by HISTORY - a scientific discipline or a description of some event that took place in the past
  37. +3
    23 October 2023 14: 18
    Quote: Lewww
    However, your level in matters of conducting historical research is obvious to me - it was in vain that I got involved in a meaningless polemic with you
    Although I don’t agree with you at other points, in my opinion you hit the bull’s eye.
    By the way, the same thing (about the need to have Rurik’s genetic material) applies to all “historical characters”, including a certain “Genghis Khan” especially. Otherwise, these so-called "Genghisids" divorced. And historians like your opponent just a little, right away: this one was Chingizid, and this one was not Chingizid, therefore.... and then you can attribute any conclusion you like. laughing
  38. +2
    23 October 2023 14: 21
    Quote from Frettaskyrandi
    Historically educated person
    Excuse me, but what is a “historically educated person”? This is the one who has read and memorized all the historical works of, so to speak, professional historians that have been published over the last 200 years, as well as amateurs, which are all the “historians” who wrote their “historical works” more than 200 hundred years ago. Since none of them had a specialized historical education?
  39. +1
    23 October 2023 17: 06
    Quote: Lewww
    , what we mean by HISTORY - a scientific discipline
    It is impossible to understand history as a SCIENTIFIC discipline. For History does not meet at least several basic criteria for being scientific.
    There are modern criteria (postulates) of scientific character.
    The set of criteria for scientific character determines a very specific model of science, which is denoted by the term classical science. The system of highlighted criteria of scientific character can be represented as follows.
    First, scientificness is equated with objectivity. Objectivity is understood as focusing on an object, as objectivity. For science, everything is an object comprehended through experience.

    The second feature of science is the empirical nature of knowledge. Observation, experiment, measurement are the main methods of obtaining and confirming knowledge. In this regard, the requirement of reproducibility and repeatability is imposed on a scientific experiment. The experience can be repeated at any time and in any place and its result will not change. The scientific result does not depend on who received it.

    The third postulate of the classical model of science, concerning the general validity, reliability and universality of scientific knowledge, is called the principle of intersubjectivity. According to the latter, a scientific statement will be the more reliable, the less it contains subjective contributions. Classical science sought to eliminate (from the Latin eliminare - to expel), to exclude the subject from the context of intrascientific constructions. Science must provide absolutely reliable knowledge, finally substantiated. This requirement is associated with the fundamentalism of scientific knowledge, it is also designated as a criterion of universalism.

    Sorry, but History does not fall under any of the above scientific postulates.
    History does not comprehend anything through experience. Since, for example, in 4-5 neighboring states the same social reasons lead somewhere to the emergence of a revolutionary situation, and in some they do not. Where they lead, somewhere the revolutionary situation reaches its peak in the form of a revolution, and somewhere it does not reach it and fades away. Somewhere the revolutionary situation led to communism (Bolshevism), and somewhere to fascism and Nazism.
    But, for example, Ohm's Law or Hooke's Law are universal. Even in the Arctic, even at the equator, even in Antarctica. They work the same everywhere.
    True science makes it possible to predict even the appearance of new elements, having foreseen a place for them in the periodic table. The Science of Celestial Mechanics made it possible to first calculate that in such and such a place in our solar system there must be a certain planet, and only after quite a long time, the planet Neptune was discovered in the calculated place.
    The fact that History cannot be classified as a science was shown and proven back in the mid-19th century by the great German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer in his immortal work “The World as Will and Idea.”

    However, against the background of such “sciences” as political science, Scientology, Dianetics, ufology, etc. The story still looks pretty good.
    PS They say that journalism will soon become a science. Or maybe cinematography. Really respected people would like to be able to write “PhD in Journalism” and “Doctor of Cinematography” on their business cards. By the way, transport doctors I've already met. hi
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. -1
    23 October 2023 18: 22
    Quote: Seal
    By the way, the same thing (about the need to have Rurik’s genetic material) applies to all “historical characters”, including a certain “Genghis Khan” especially.
    I will express my IMHO.

    In my opinion, geneticists have become too carried away with the task of exploring various historical mysteries through genetic research.
    The system of “haplogroups” and “haplotypes” they invented is controversial and, when determining the nationality of people who died 1000 (or less) years ago, gives too high a probability of error.

    These methods give an acceptable result only if a relationship is identified in the father-son or grandfather-grandson link. But no further.
    And the most real benefit of genetic research occurs when it is necessary to identify the identity of the detected genetic material with the subject carrying this material, which is successfully used in forensic science.

    Therefore, I believe that even if the remains of (for example) Prince. Igor, it will be possible to conduct a genetic examination with acceptable for science accurately determine his nationality.

    But it is not possible to explain this to various home-grown historians; they do not even admit that such research is akin to quackery
    1. +2
      24 October 2023 01: 37
      Quote: Lewww
      In my opinion, geneticists have become too carried away with the task of exploring various historical mysteries through genetic research.
      The system of “haplogroups” and “haplotypes” they invented is controversial and, when determining the nationality of people who died 1000 (or less) years ago, gives too high a probability of error.


      Publications of studies show acceptable results based on the study of male and female haplogroups, along the line of father - son, or mother - daughter, but not mixed. The human body is not a data bank and stores evolutionary data only along one line, male or female. He doesn't need two lines. Therefore, when peoples who trace their line of kinship through the female line try to find traces of their DNA in the DNA of ancient women, it is most likely doomed to failure. The female body, by definition, does not need to remember the genetic sequences of all the men who were fathers, thousands of proto-mothers
  42. 0
    24 October 2023 13: 22
    hosspali, what nonsense... his enthusiastic commentators are especially depressing. 4000 years.. Etruscans are Russians.. facepalm. and before Fomenkovism was considered a joke
    1. +1
      24 October 2023 19: 15
      My dear, I understand you perfectly: an article based mainly on the works of D.I. Ilovaisky, tears to shreds the historical stereotypes that have developed in the minds of ordinary people, and therefore is perceived by them with indignation hi
      It’s good that the author did not raise the issue of Rurik’s fabulousness, otherwise he would have gotten even worse from the “history experts” laughing
  43. +1
    24 October 2023 14: 12
    Sadly. Divide and rule. We kill ourselves, making room for our enemies. Goebbels was an amateur
  44. +1
    25 October 2023 10: 27
    Comment: in nature everything is natural - the weak gives way to the strong (I hope this is not about people from Central Asian countries). They say that not long ago abortion was finally banned in one region of Rus' (Mordovia?)
  45. +1
    25 October 2023 11: 26
    I don’t agree that the Russians are a self-named name, that many tribes that had different names called themselves that. Moreover, have roots with the words mermaid or dew. It seems to me that Europeans called our tribes Rus at a time when Latin was the language of interethnic communication in Europe. In Latin, one of the designations for the color red is “russus”, that is, our tribes were called “red”, they were called by their military distinctive feature: red banners, shields, hats, boots, in general clothing.
    1. 0
      25 October 2023 20: 25
      It seems to me that Europeans called our tribes Rus in those days

      "Where it is possible to draw a variety of conclusions, it is impossible to demand accuracy"
      DI. Ilovaisky
  46. 0
    25 October 2023 14: 48
    The modern words “glory” and “word” have the same root “slav”. (note: there is Sovenia, Slovakia and (was) Yugoslavia). Initially they meant almost the same thing. To praise, to catch - i.e. speak. The name of the peoples "Slavs" most likely comes from the root "slav", i.e. speak, understand what is being said (in the same language). An analogue is the Germans (from dumb) - all other peoples who cannot speak (understand) the word (i.e. the speech of the Slavs).
    1. +1
      27 October 2023 13: 14
      The name of the peoples "Slavs" most likely comes from the root "slav", i.e. speak, understand what is being said (in the same language). An analogue is the Germans (from dumb) - all other peoples who cannot speak (understand) the word (i.e. the speech of the Slavs).

      Note that the term “glorify” is of later origin since it actually comes from the verb “to catch.” This topic has already been described in sufficient detail in many works, and it turned out that a completely new term “Slavs” appeared in Russia only in 1701 thanks to the order of a certain Peter who came from Holland and ordered the publication of the first book, a translation into Russian of the book of the Catholic Mavro Orbini “Slavic” kingdom" first published in Latin only in 1601. This term has become widespread in the West, although the author himself has long been banned by the Catholic Church and anyone else. Before Peter, no one in Rus' knew such a term and always used the purely Russian-language term “Slovenes”. It seems that Peter’s task was to accustom the local population to this new foreign terminology, so to speak, to replace the term in a Western manner. The origin of the term “Slavs” has been sufficiently studied today, and this term in all cases has a somewhat offensive nature since it comes from the purely Latin term “sclaveni” with the meaning in Latin - “slaves”, although for the term “slaves” in other dialects of Latin there are also others are also Latin terms. In general, the use of the term “Slavs” today is already very confusing for readers, and I think that is the main reason for its use. Well, “Germans” - this is how purely Russian-speaking Slovenians can be called Germans, such as, for example, the ancient Prussians of Prussia (In Russian in the dialect), simply replacing their native language with a language, for example, used in the Bible of the Protestant Martin Luther, using the obligatory application in life of his Protestant version of Christianity. This is how the Germanized Rus or simply “Germans” for short appear from the Slovenian Rus. That's the whole story.
      By the way, I read today’s historians and they write that, for example, the ancient Russian city “Old Ladoga” was built by the Slovenes, so the Slovenes still live in Slovenia, Slovakia, in the area of ​​​​Lake Ilmen, after all, the descendants of the Ilmen Slovenes also live, and indeed the “Etruscans” (these are not a self-designation but a Latin term) they called themselves Slovenians and Rassenians, but not “Slavs” and certainly not Germans and the like. There are also versions that the term Rus' and the Russians may also have some foreign origin, for example Latin, and so on, but it is very difficult, I will not delve into such complex jungle.
  47. +2
    25 October 2023 15: 28
    Yes, I am delighted with myself that I got to the end. From the first lines I was tormented by vague doubts. Have I heard something like this somewhere? I remembered! The Great Ukrainians dug up the Black Sea. The author mixed everyone up and came up with a version, as was noted here, that was no more plausibly confirmed than those criticized. It is useless to seek 100% truth. There are few sources, and even more so primary sources. The same “Tale of Bygone Years” was written centuries later based on numerous retellings.
  48. 0
    27 October 2023 16: 21
    Quote: Sergey_Vladimir
    The author mixed everyone up and came up with a version, as noted here, that was no more plausibly confirmed than those criticized.
    For critics like you, I specifically wrote in the article:
    Let me make a reservation right away: there is no generally accepted (considered by everyone to be correct) answer to these questions, as they say in such cases: regarding the named concepts (terms), historians have separate opinions, which often do not coincide with each other.

    Or to put it another way: these questions are debatable, because due to the scarcity of ancient historical documents, they move from a purely historical plane to an ethnological and even philosophical plane.

    Therefore, I do not insist on accepting what is stated below as the absolute truth, but I would like to note that the information I have provided is not a figment of my imagination - at the end of the essay I will indicate a list of historical works that I used.
    The version that I voiced was put forward by D.I. Ilovaisky, and in my opinion it is not fiction, for all his life he spent his entire life researching the origins of the Slavs, Russians and the history of ancient Rus' during the times of princes Oleg and Igor.
    And in his works there are references to dozens of ancient Greek, Arabic and other sources, i.e. his theoretical constructs are not taken out of thin air.
    And if what is written in the article tears your “historical template” to shreds, then this does not at all prove that what was written is nonsense
  49. +2
    28 October 2023 14: 47
    So no offense, but here are all the statements that the Goths went somewhere, once upon a time... please write along with the words probably or possible, otherwise such phrases give the impression that they did this with you or with your colleagues from the Academy of History (academicians generally need, before declaring anything on the topic of the history of our ancestors, to present to the house government a certificate stating that they have never received any grants from you know where, anywhere). Here you understand, about seemingly recent events - the invasion of capitalists in 1991 or the arrival of the Bolsheviks in 1917, and those are reflected in our holy history in such a way that descendants will write a terrible heresy in desserts; and you and your goths, and so on. Thank you
  50. +1
    28 October 2023 20: 58
    I liked the phrase true story, who knows. This is mostly secret information. As an example, the baptism of Rus', under what conditions this happened and whether it was the so-called soft power of the Vatican. It is no secret that in exchange for accepting the faith, the Vatican offered assistance in the form of an army and money in return. The most interesting thing in history is the formation and distribution of alphabets and the division of the people of the earth into nationalities, who was involved in these processes and why. Maslenitsa is a so-called pagan holiday and digested by the church in a new way. As in other religions, there is a mixture of the old in a new way.
  51. -1
    16 November 2023 21: 25
    Rus' then became Russia, when they separated from Kiev, again according to animal principles, a struggle for power, Kiev may have been weakened, they wanted their own power, and so Rus' appeared, however, the original name is not Rus, but Slavs, the Rus are perhaps a sign of the unification of disparate tribes - mixing, hence the conclusion about Belarus, alien to the mixing of blood are also Russians, but whites are not mixed. In general, I don’t like the division of people into nationalities and countries (borders), the working class, i.e. This only divides the people, for the rulers it is a plus, for clanism. All the troubles of this world are in our common disunity, it is a shame for the whole world, if there was a common one main language and erased borders, with a common world government, where 2% of GDP is spent not on weapons, but on space and medicine, and young people are surprised at that blood was shed in wars, when here we are, united without borders, colonizing space and knowing no troubles. What the world government is doing cannot be called anything other than the stupidity of the animal world. The true story of how the division of the world into clans that preceded future governments began and why all our troubles to this day, who benefited from it - these are the historical enemies of all humanity! Archives preserve the memory of those days, but they may be classified as secret. A sign of division is the order of formation of alphabets, why exactly this way and not otherwise, some have an alphabet, we should also have one, but with different letters, these are the first enemies of humanity, the written beginnings of the division of the world should be stored in the archives of ancient history, it would be nice to find this history and teach it to humanity, who began to divide humanity and for what selfish purposes. For reference, nationality, first of all, differences in external characteristics at the place of residence, adaptation to the external environment, national food - pasture growing in this territory, do not be confused, this was before the appearance of all religions, the emergence of religions begins the most interesting thing, where is the main question who and why. In a word, a tale about Babylon.
  52. +1
    24 November 2023 09: 11
    Quote: Alexander Kuksin
    Jews. Look on the Internet for a map of ancient Judea.


    Do you mean a province of the Roman Empire or something else? What is taught in Israel, or what is said in the Synagogue, is not necessarily a historical fact. I am not at all opposed to the citizens of Israel believing in the history created for them, but this does not mean at all that the rest of the world shares their beliefs. The movement and beliefs of the Jews or Jews can be compared with the movements of the Yezidis or Kurds, who have been fighting for their state for thousands of years, but cannot agree among themselves. The Jews are most likely a separated, separate part of the Yezidis, which developed their own specific religion.
  53. 0
    5 December 2023 22: 45
    I started reading - you are serious Novgorod! This is the story of the betrayal of everything Russian, Novgorod always wanted an independent principality from Rus' and stretched to the west, until the Cossacks received the Lyuli. You are seriously comparing the appearance of Rossa or Rusa with such tribes as the Scythians, etc. Rus' originated from Kyiv and spread, and then separated from Kyiv and began to call itself in its own way - times of princely squabbles, shameful times. The word Slav is more ancient, by the way, the Poles and Germans are also Slavs, and this story dates back to the emergence of religions, before the coming of Rome to Germany they were Slavs, then there was assimilation and Rome turned out to be the culprit of the split of Slavic Europe, the main culprit is the Roman Empire! We don’t need to spread false stories in our own way. Europe before the emergence of religion was Slavic. After the invasion of Rome and religion, there was a split and problems to this day; Novgorod and Pskov are not at all an example of everything Russian, rather a schismatic history. Now it has become fashionable to glorify the Cossacks, these are the most important enemies of the working class, they were always white and served the tsars, until they received lyulya from central Russia from an ordinary working man who turned out to be cooler than everyone else, both the Cossacks and the entire intervention (USA, Germany, France, etc. .p.) look at the map, only central Russia originally resisted at that time, ordinary workers, so your Cossacks have not yet earned the honor of trust as they are glorified, they are traitors to the people.
  54. +1
    21 December 2023 07: 45
    When I finished reading about the Etruscans and Scythians, I realized that the author was another dreamer and a digger of the Black Sea. Don't waste your time on this nonsense
    1. 0
      24 December 2023 23: 03
      You didn't read carefully. The author does not claim, but cites versions of various researchers.
  55. 0
    24 December 2023 23: 00
    Thanks to the author. I recommend being patient and reading the article. Over the course of 30 years, as many as 2 generations have grown up Historically illiterate. But they will always argue about “historical facts” citing Wikipedia.
  56. 0
    18 March 2024 10: 56
    First, Tyunyaev will express a crazy idea and then refute it himself. An interesting technique. The history contains links to source documents, but without links it is not history, but zilch.
    Therefore, Russian chronicles, mentions of Constantine Porphyrogenitus about Rus', Polish documents and the time of writing of these documents and knowledge of the language of that time are important. For example, “from those” means “those”, and “to be called” not only “to be called”, but also “to be mentioned” or “killed by the Polovtsians” means “killed by the Polovtsians”. There may be errors and typos in documents - all this requires hard work from historians.
  57. +1
    18 March 2024 18: 01
    I finished reading until Voleg... another pseudoscientific nonsense. Moreover, this is nonsense with a bias, which is not surprising.
  58. 0
    18 March 2024 18: 05
    Quote: Mister Who
    I started reading - you are serious Novgorod! This is the story of the betrayal of everything Russian, Novgorod always wanted an independent principality from Rus' and stretched to the west, until the Cossacks received the Lyuli. You are seriously comparing the appearance of Rossa or Rusa with such tribes as the Scythians, etc. Rus' originated from Kyiv and spread, and then separated from Kyiv and began to call itself in its own way - times of princely squabbles, shameful times. The word Slav is more ancient, by the way, the Poles and Germans are also Slavs, and this story dates back to the emergence of religions, before the coming of Rome to Germany they were Slavs, then there was assimilation and Rome turned out to be the culprit of the split of Slavic Europe, the main culprit is the Roman Empire! We don’t need to spread false stories in our own way. Europe before the emergence of religion was Slavic. After the invasion of Rome and religion, there was a split and problems to this day; Novgorod and Pskov are not at all an example of everything Russian, rather a schismatic history. Now it has become fashionable to glorify the Cossacks, these are the most important enemies of the working class, they were always white and served the tsars, until they received lyulya from central Russia from an ordinary working man who turned out to be cooler than everyone else, both the Cossacks and the entire intervention (USA, Germany, France, etc. .p.) look at the map, only central Russia originally resisted at that time, ordinary workers, so your Cossacks have not yet earned the honor of trust as they are glorified, they are traitors to the people.


    Rus' could not have originated from Kyiv, because Rus' came to Kyiv (territory) from Novgorod (Ladoga, Staraya Rusa)
    1. 0
      29 March 2024 11: 30
      Rus' came to Kyiv (territory) from Novgorod
      an unlikely theory refuted by facts
  59. 0
    18 March 2024 19: 28
    1. Dmitry Bivol’s famous answer to the topic of nationality - “I was born in Kyrgyzstan, my father is Moldovan, my mother is Korean, and I myself am Russian.”
  60. +1
    18 March 2024 19: 39
    2. to cite the dreamers of Illovaisky with his Etruscans and Klassen as a source of historical knowledge...well, it’s not serious. to put it mildly...Today even the once great Karamzin is no longer perceived as the ultimate truth....
    1. 0
      29 March 2024 11: 34
      2. cite Illovaisky’s dreamers as a source of historical knowledge
      I’m embarrassed to ask: a) what works of Ilovaisky have you read? fully? b) on what basis do you call him a dreamer?
      1. 0
        April 19 2024 13: 15
        I have the full five-volume set on the shelf in my library and I read it all, mastered it ..about the Cossacks in Ancient Rome and about the Etruscan Rus)) ...by the way, he is very similar in this regard to the Soviet Kazakh writer Olzhas Suleimenov..... he removed almost all the states of Europe and North Africa from the Kipchaks, well. Rus' was in his backyard....naturally. Kipchaks are modern Kazakhs and no one else can be them
  61. 0
    20 March 2024 14: 38
    But Fomenko and Nosovsky caught up. We missed them laughing
    1. 0
      24 March 2024 08: 57
      Quote: Arnok
      But Fomenko and Nosovsky caught up. We missed them
      Just like in Ukraine. If a true believer Svidomo doesn’t remember Vladimir Vladimirovich a couple of times a day, then he seems to be out of his element. Can't eat lard lol It's the same here. If a true believer of the official version of history does not remember Fomenko and Nosovsky a couple of times a day, then he probably loses his appetite and cannot sleep. For true believers of the official version of history, this “two” Fomenko + Nosovsky is like the “Holy Two” laughing
  62. 0
    24 March 2024 08: 51
    Quote: Cartalon
    Here, after all, sometimes real historians write.
    I wonder what in your understanding the term “real historians” means in relation to historians writing on such and even more “ancient” topics? What, in your opinion, distinguishes such “real” historians from “not real” historians?
  63. -1
    30 March 2024 16: 19
    Quote: Lewww
    Rus' came to Kyiv (territory) from Novgorod
    an unlikely theory refuted by facts


    Of course, according to the Black Sea diggers.
  64. 0
    30 March 2024 16: 20
    Quote: Seal
    Quote: Cartalon
    Here, after all, sometimes real historians write.
    I wonder what in your understanding the term “real historians” means in relation to historians writing on such and even more “ancient” topics? What, in your opinion, distinguishes such “real” historians from “not real” historians?


    This is something like official medicine and treatment based on photography.
  65. 0
    30 March 2024 16: 23
    Quote: Andrey Kuligin
    1. Dmitry Bivol’s famous answer to the topic of nationality - “I was born in Kyrgyzstan, my father is Moldovan, my mother is Korean, and I myself am Russian.”


    And if a Chinese person was born in Angola, what is he - Angolan?
  66. 0
    April 3 2024 18: 04
    In various eras, the Russians appeared on the historical stage under numerous names, for example: Veneds, Scythians, Massagetae, Antes, Agofirs, Sarmatians, Saki, Skolots, Getae, Alans, Roksolans, Budins, Yaksamatas, Trojans, Rugs, Ruzhans (Russian farmers) . All these names were given by the surrounding peoples to numerous Russian tribes living in various eras in vast territories from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, and from the Caspian Sea to Central Asia and the Middle East, and even to Egypt.
    and also the Huns, Apaches, Delawares, Hurons and Sioux... Why waste time on trifles...?! Also say that Adam was a Rus, like Jesus Christ and Buddha. Been through it all
  67. 0
    April 3 2024 18: 06
    There is a version that the name “Ross” is formed from the word “rsa” - water, river.
    Zadornov suffered from this, how to derive what was needed from completely different words. For example, how to derive the name of the male genital organ from the popular name of the female genital organ?
  68. 0
    April 3 2024 18: 39
    And now the war is not between Russians, and not even between Russians and Ukrainians. The war is being waged between the Orthodox Slavs
    This is where we had to start, that the war is not between Russians and former Russians, not between Russians and Ukrainians, but even further - between the Slavs. Like, for example, between Russians and Bulgarians, or even between Russians and Serbs. Or, for example, between the Orthodox Russian Slavs and the Catholic Slavic Poles. This is what the author is getting at - Ukrainians are even further from Russians, they are not just former Russians, they are not like Ukrainians. They are generally Slavs, just like the Poles, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats...
  69. 0
    April 3 2024 18: 41
    The author should at least change his name. And the fact that suddenly “God’s chosen ones” became worried about the fate of the Slavs and Russians
    As has often happened in the history of our Motherland, the youngest and most courageous again die in a fratricidal war. And thousands of civilians die (again, Christian Slavs), who by misfortune find themselves in a combat zone...

    And the worst thing is that there will be no winner in this war. With any development of events in historical terms, both opposing sides will be losers, and the gain in the form of the emergence of another century-long enmity between two fraternal Slavic peoples will go to the enemies of the Orthodox Slavic world...

    And the emerging demographic vacuum will quickly be filled with immigrants from Central Asian countries; this trend is already noticeable in large Russian cities.
    . You either put on your panties or take off your cross
  70. 0
    April 4 2024 05: 25
    Ooooh, this pathetic author also cleans up the comments.....
  71. 0
    April 8 2024 15: 11
    The true self-name of the people has fallen to the everyday level and is no longer perceived as it should be. We are "the people". This is the word that all Slavic peoples have, unlike the word “Slav”. From the word “people” many male and female names were formed: Lut, Lyut, Lyud, Luta, Luda. These names are numerous in Polish, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Slovenian. Even one tribe - the Lyutici - was formed from this root. There are many designations in our chronicles: Moscow people, Kyiv people, etc. This indicates the direction of fragmentation of the original designation - people. But the Slavs, the Russians, are most likely a self-name imposed on us from other peoples.