Calcrise. Battlefield, museum, ordinary horrors of the ancient war and a detective from 2000 years ago

101

Terrain


In 1988, a retired major in the British army, and now an amateur archaeologist, Tony Klann, discovered in the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbMount Kalkriese, not far from Osnabrück, a handful of coins and several almond-shaped objects. Upon further study, the latter turned out to be lead sling shells used in the Roman army.

Calcrise. Battlefield, museum, ordinary horrors of the ancient war and a detective from 2000 years ago
It all started with these inconspicuous pieces of metal. Varusshlacht Museum. Photo of the author.

This fact stirred the scientifichistorical community. The fact that the vicinity of Kalkriese could be the site of the battle in the Teutoburg Forest has been talked about for a very long time. In particular, the famous historian T. Mommsen adhered to this version. So far, however, searches have turned up nothing that could be connected to the battle of two thousand years ago, except for a certain amount of coins. And finally, the first find weapons.



Thus began a more than 30-year-old saga of excavations, which made it possible to shed light on many circumstances of the famous battle. Thousands of artifacts were found, including several unique ones, and the Varusschlacht Museum was built in Kalkriese to house them.

Time is merciless not only to people and the creations of their hands. Natural landscapes are also changing beyond recognition. Two thousand years ago, one kilometer north of the mountain, or rather the Kalkriese hill, was a huge swamp. Its swampy sections in some places approached the foot of the mountain, leaving a passage literally 100 meters wide, accessible to humans.

The slopes of Mount Kalkrize, due to the peculiarities of the relief, could retain water, forming flooded terraces. Even now, a lot of water accumulates on the slopes of the mountain. The situation was the same 2000 years ago. The fact that it rained during the battle is known to us from the description of the Roman historian Dion Cassius. For an army with a huge convoy, which also included the children and wives of legionnaires (this is also known from Cassius), even a low (110 m) mountain became an insurmountable obstacle.

Thus, the narrow strip of land between the northern slope and the swamp became an ideal place for an ambush. An army that finds itself in this region will be forced to climb into this natural bottleneck.


Reconstruction of the area. The Roman army marched from east to west. Varusshlacht Museum. Photo of the author.


View of the northern slope of Mount Kalkrize. On the right (corresponding to the direction to the north), you can see the same passage and the fence of the archaeological site. The swamp, more precisely, the lowland in its modern form, is located even further to the north. Between the slope and the passage is a ravine overgrown with forest. Varusshlacht park. Photo of the author.

The reports of ancient authors about dense impenetrable forests in Germany in the case of Kalkriese are not confirmed. Palynological analysis of the finds showed pollen from plants of the goose foot, kochedyzhnik, bindweed, oats and peas species. The events were supposed to take place between July and September.

In 1992, a bell covered with plant remains was found in Kalkriza. Experts have identified, again, oats, peas, nomadic fern and chastukha. The last two plants are typical for swampy areas. Thus, the surroundings of the mountain were at least partially covered with agricultural crops already two thousand years ago, and the main obstacle was not the forests, but the swamps and water on the slopes mentioned above.

The area of ​​Calcrise is reluctant to part with its prey. Acidic soils effectively dissolve organic matter. But in some places, limestones come to the surface, and then, with a bit of luck, archaeologists will find gloomy finds.

.

Fragment of a collective burial. In total, eight pits with remains were found. Photo of the author. Varusschlacht Museum

From the description of Tacitus, we know that the Roman soldiers of Germanicus, once at the site of the battle, arranged a collective burial of their fallen comrades.

So, the army present here, in the sixth year after the defeat of Varus, buried the remains of three legions, and although no one could recognize whether he covered the bones of strangers or his own with earth, they were all buried as close, as blood relatives, with increased hatred of enemies, imbued with and sadness and anger.

Archaeologists supplement this evidence by indicating that such mass graves contained many bones belonging to the mules and horses of the defeated army. There are no complete skeletons, and the bones show bite marks and cracks, as if they had been lying on the surface for some time. Forensic medicine concludes that from the moment of death to burial, 3 to 10 years have passed. This is in full agreement with the news of Tacitus. Some fragments of bones found can be identified as female, presumably, they were the wives of legionnaires who shared the fate of the army.


Left. Roman horseman mask. Calcrise. Visible holes for attaching to a helmet. Most researchers are inclined to believe that such masks were not combat, but rather ceremonial. Photo of the author. Varusschlacht Museum.
On right. Old Russian mask found in Izyaslavl. Reconstruction by P. A. Vasin. The author of the reconstruction believes that such masks go back to Roman models through Byzantine antiquities. Unlike their Roman counterparts, there is no doubt about their combat purpose - two well-known masks of this type were found in the layers of fires related to the Mongol pogrom. Quoted from: Vasin, Lemeshko "Lichiny"

Wall. Key Finding or Source of Misconceptions?


A big surprise was the discovery in 1990 of the remains of the shaft, not mentioned by ancient writers.

The shaft ran along the northern slope of Mount Kalkrize and stretched for 400 meters. Archaeologists believe that this rampart is the work of the Germans, not the Romans. Stretching from east to west, the shaft did not cut the defile between the mountain and the swamp across, as one might think, but for some reason was extended parallel to the alleged movement of the Romans.

Perhaps the attackers wanted to further narrow the passage in this way, or strengthened the mountainside, which looked more accessible, or even arranged a “golden bridge” for the enemy, suggesting that the Romans abandon everything and rush into the passage while they bombard them with projectiles with impunity for almost half a kilometer. The estimated height of the shaft is 4 m. Dark spots in the soil layer indicate that a wattle fence probably passed along the top.

As already mentioned, the soil around is not conducive to the preservation of organic matter. However, bodies eaten by the earth leave behind deposits of phosphates. As a result, the soil acquires a pale yellow color, and if there are especially many phosphates, it becomes bright orange. Near the shaft, the samples show an increased content of phosphates.


View of the wall, or rather, the place where it was, from the north (from the side of the former large swamp). The northern slope of the mountain begins behind the wall. It can be seen that the mountain practically does not rise above the forest. The ground in front of the wall is leveled, but this is the result of the activities of the peasants, who have been cutting the sod for many years, and erosion. Two thousand years ago, the surface here was very bumpy. The fence was erected around the sites of archaeological excavations. Photo of the author. Park Varusschlacht

So, the discovery of the rampart seems to support the version of an ambush in a narrow defile. In this form, our story managed to get into the pages of books and articles devoted to the battle.

However, archeology does not stand still.

Control drilling in the Kalkrize park adjacent to the wall revealed the remains of v-shaped ditches to the north, east and west of the wall. A characteristic profile, fortifications on at least three sides, is that really it? The Roman camp, the last refuge of the legions of Varus!

According to the new interpretation, the Roman army not only entered the bottleneck at the foot of the mountain, but also set up camp there. The "Germanic" wall, apparently, was built before the battle and ended up right on the territory of the Roman camp. Next to it was something like a manor.

It's hard to say what exactly happened next. It turns out that the camp was well located, covered from the north by a swamp, and from the south by a mountain with water barriers and fortified according to all the rules. Nevertheless, it was taken by the Germans, as evidenced by the finds of mass graves. Yes, there is still a huge amount of work to be done.

Another oddity is connected with the shaft.

Finds of Roman equipment at the excavation site are generally rare, as if the victorious Germans went through everything very carefully in search of valuables. However, in the area of ​​​​the rampart, the concentration of Roman weapons is unexpectedly even anomalously high. Remains of helmets, shield umbos, spearheads, cloak fasteners were found.

Does this mean that after the battle the shaft became an exhibition of the trophies of the victors? We know that the Greeks set up a tropion of taken weapons and armor at the place of victory. The Romans did the same, for example, Germanicus placed trophies in the German lands at least twice. Did the Germans themselves have something similar?


It can be seen how the finds gravitate towards the area of ​​the rampart. On both sides of the rampart, Germanic pottery is found in abundance. As for the German equipment, only two items were found, but even their attribution is ambiguous. Photo of the author. Varusschlacht Museum

Cold case - an antique capercaillie and an exhibition of the same name at the Varusschlachtmuseum


In 2018, during excavations in the area of ​​the rampart, a metal detector produced a particularly strong signal. A fragment weighing several hundred kilograms was cut out of the ground and sent for detailed study to the Fraunhofer Institute.

For almost two years, layer by layer, archaeologists and specialists from the institute's laboratory have been extracting finds.

Their eyes were presented with an iron chain three meters long and elements of armor of a high degree of preservation. Near the find at the excavation site, a pilum, a Roman amulet, and something else were found.


Roman iron fetters for captives. A large loop is for the neck, two small loops are for the wrists. After imposing fetters on the neck and arms, a rod was inserted into the eyes of the device and fixed with something like a cotter pin at the back. Varusschlacht Museum. Author's photo

Long iron chain, Roman armor, metal fetters for prisoners. What actually happened here?


Reconstruction of events. A Roman soldier, still alive or dead, is put on a Roman fetter - a retainer, and hung up with a chain. It is possible that armor straps were used for hanging. Varusschlacht Museum. Author's photo

It is difficult to say whether this was a form of sacrifice or whether the unfortunate man was simply hung as a trophy. Probably a living trophy, otherwise why would you need metal fetters. Tacitus speaks of the sacrificed captives:

There were also fragments of weapons, and horse bones, and human skulls nailed to tree trunks. In the nearby forests, altars were discovered, at which the barbarians sacrificed the tribunes and centurions of the first centuries.

And mentions the hanged, but without details:

From what height did Arminius deliver his speech, how many gallows for reprisals against the prisoners, and how many pits were prepared for them.

And what about the armor?


And here he is. The oldest lorica segmentata and even in the best condition. The weight of the reconstructed armor is 10 kg. Varusschlacht Museum. Author's photo

What else?


The Cold case exhibition is not limited to the exhibits found at Calcrise. A retrospective of laminar armor is given, starting with a replica of Dendra's armor. And to illustrate the horrors of the war, the organizers compiled an anthology of finds at the sites of other mass graves.


Mass grave from Ribemont-sur-Ancre, where the remains of hundreds of men aged between 20 and 40 were found. In the third century BC, one of the Gallic tribes defeated its neighbors. The bones of the arms and legs of approximately 350 people were laid out in a square. The rest of the bones were destroyed. Nearby was a mass grave for about 100 people. Their skeletons were practically intact, but the skulls were missing. Roman authors reported that the heads of enemies were a valuable trophy among the Celts. Somme Patrimoine specially for the Cold case exhibition. Varusschlacht Museum. Author's photo


From left to right. Fragments of a segmentata from Corbridge. English Heritage Trust for the Cold case exhibition.
Reconstruction of the find from Corbridge according to P. Connolly.
Armor reconstruction based on finds from Corbridge.
Varusschlacht Museum. Author's photo

Fragments of Lorica segmentata from Corbridge are presented. Dated between 122 and 138. n. e. The so-called "Corbridge hoard" contained parts of 12 segmentata, as well as blacksmith's tools. For some reason, the Romans left the permanent camp in a hurry. Lorica segmentata from Corbridge had wider, and therefore more reliable loops and simpler protection in the shoulder area. Despite the progress, it was still a very complex armor. So, the legion master in Corbridge incorrectly assembled the plates on his back.

The fact that the Germans had their own rite of displaying trophies can be evidenced by the remains of laminar armor from Stilfried presented at the exhibition. During the period of the Marcomannic wars, the Roman outpost was captured, and the armor, presumably, was fixed for viewing.


Left. Female skull found in the region of Regensburg. In the third century A.D. e. the Roman villa was attacked by enemies. Thirteen of the inhabitants had their heads broken. The woman was also scalped. The bodies were thrown into the well along with household items. Historical Museum Regensburg especially for the Cold case exhibition.
On right. The area of ​​Alken Enge in the north of Denmark in the first century BC. e. became the scene of bloody showdowns of the Germanic tribes. Nearly 400 men fell in the battle. Many were killed from the back - while fleeing or lying face down on the ground. Their bodies were still lying there. But a year later, people came to the battlefield again. They broke some of the corpses lengthwise, boiled the bones and carefully sorted them. The photo shows the remains of the pelvic bones that belonged to four men. Four halves strung on a branch, strictly alternating left and right sides. Then the result of such labors was drowned in the lake. Skanderborg Museum for the Cold case exhibition. Varusschlacht Museum. Photo of the author.


Left. Brigantine from the burial of Visby. It bears some resemblance to ancient segmentates: large laminar plates protect the lower part of the body. Rivets fastening to the outer layer of fabric or leather are visible, in contrast to the segmentate, where a set of plates was fixed by rows of straps from the inside.
On right. Head, apparently severed, despite the chainmail hood. Visby burial ground. Stockholm Historical Museum for Cold case exhibition, Varusschlacht Museum. Photo of the author.

In 1361, the inhabitants of Gotland were defeated by the troops of the Danish king. The remains of 800 people, 25 plate armor, three bracers, 200 chain mail were found in mass graves. For some reason, the armor did not interest the winners. Perhaps due to intense decomposition (the battle was in the middle of summer) or simply such armor was already considered obsolete then. Finds from Sweden are also presented at the exhibition.

Conclusion. About the benefits of legends


The battle in the Teutoburg Forest became a kind of hallmark of the German people back in the days of the Habsburgs. The battle was widely used for propaganda purposes, glorified the valor of the Germans and served as a kind of manifesto about the importance of unification. Over time, when the propaganda husks fell off, there was a place for revisionist ideas.

Skeptics rightly pointed out that the success did not save the Germans from further campaigns of the Romans, that Germanicus took revenge in the battle of Idistaviso, and that the Germans could not repeat such a success for a very long time. However, this often forgets the moral aspect of the victory, which gave a powerful impetus to further resistance. In addition, the loss by Rome of the territory between the Rhine and the Elbe, which, as it seemed, was about to become another province, is quite obvious.

In order to get even with the Germans, Germanicus brought 15 legions in 8, and at least 16 in 12. The legions were supported by numerous auxilia and a river fleet. Another fleet operated in the North Sea. But even this was not enough to conquer the Zarein regions.

What a striking contrast with the conquest of Gaul, when 8 (initially 4 in general) legions of Caesar literally crushed the resistance of the Gauls. Perhaps it was the great success and the heroic legend associated with it that the Gauls did not have enough to defend their independence (the similar victory of Ambiorix was many times more modest). As for the conqueror of the Romans, Arminius, Tacitus wrote that the Germans sang this name in his time, that is, three generations later.
101 comment
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +5
    9 July 2023 05: 51
    the Germans could not repeat such a success for a very long time

    Such a dazzling success, of course, was not. However, the Germans, without any major battles, continued to push the Romans for several centuries and squeezed to the point that the Empire collapsed, and in its place German sub-states of the barbarian type were formed ...

    Tacitus wrote that the Germans sang this name in his time, that is, three generations later

    And in my opinion, the Germans always sang of his feat - after the creation of the German Empire, a monument was erected to him, and in Nazi Germany, along with the legendary Siegfried, he was equated almost to a deity ...
    1. +5
      9 July 2023 10: 10
      the Germans always sang of his feat

      Some kind of dubious feat .. For the defeat itself became possible solely because Varus, as ancient sources write, trusted Arminius as his son. Refusing to believe any signals about him .. Singing betrayal and treachery is another achievement ..
      1. +4
        9 July 2023 10: 52
        Quote: paul3390
        To chant betrayal and treachery is another achievement

        This is not betrayal and treachery, but military cunning and skillful planning of the operation - to lure into the forest, and then suddenly attack the enemy ...

        Quote: paul3390
        ancient sources

        Tacitus lived several decades later than this battle, and, therefore, could not have been an eyewitness to it. If you're under ancient sources understand Tacitus...
    2. 0
      11 July 2023 23: 25
      Quote: Luminman

      Such a dazzling success, of course, was not. However, the Germans, without any major battles, continued to push the Romans for several centuries and squeezed to the point that the Empire collapsed, and in its place German sub-states of the barbarian type were formed ...
      ..
      The Roman Empire was destroyed by the ROMANS
      The Emperor Theodosius 1 в 395g divided a single Roman Empire on Western Roman Empire и Eastern Roman Empire.
      What other enemy of Rome could tear away from the Empire half the land?
      hi
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. -1
      18 July 2023 13: 33
      Quote: Luminman
      the Germans could not repeat such a success for a very long time

      Such a dazzling success, of course, was not. However, the Germans, without any major battles, continued to push the Romans for several centuries and squeezed to the point that the Empire collapsed, and in its place German sub-states of the barbarian type were formed ...

      The Roman Empire collapsed because it devoured itself from the inside - in endless wars with usurpers, several times more legions were destroyed than with any external enemies, and the Germans and the Huns only completed the job. Similarly, there would have been no victories of northern Rus' over the Mongols if one of the fragments of the empire of Genghis Khan - the Golden Horde - had not collapsed by that time, plunging into the chaos of civil wars for power, no matter how sad it is to realize. By the way, if pre-Mongolian Rus' had not torn itself apart from the inside with internecine wars by a bunch of independent small principalities, then it would not be known whether the Tatar-Mongol yoke would have been at all - most likely the Mongols, if they had achieved military results, would be much more modest, and they would not have lasted long, having rolled back to the steppe
  2. +6
    9 July 2023 06: 15
    Thanks. Very interesting article.
    1. +15
      9 July 2023 06: 46
      Read works Engineer I want to VO every day. But unfortunately Denis very rarely indulges us - his articles have not been on the site for more than a year. Which once again confirms the simple truth that "masterpieces are not baked like pancakes." The author is very grateful for the work done. This article will definitely go to my bookmarks. I won’t say a banal thank you on duty, I’ll just allow myself to copy a comment written a couple of years ago Vladimir_2U to one of Denis's articles:
      No mass of colorful pictures, no meaningful epigraph, no mass of ellipses and exclamation marks, but it's very interesting to read! Because there is a complete absence of blunders, a superficial understanding of the topic, and the author's remarkable abilities for analysis. Well, a light and clear pen. (With)

      IMHO, it's better not to say!
      PS. I sincerely hope that today Denis, as he usually does, will take part in the debate under his article
      1. +10
        9 July 2023 08: 42
        Extremely impressed.
        It is written as if, spreading the dust of millennia with your hands, you see what is happening with your own eyes. But something falls out - there is no description, and therefore what happened seems even more mysterious and terrible.
        What a terrible experience people...
        It is one thing - instant death, another - slow, palpable by all nerves, in metal loops, as a dinner for the gods.
        But after all, they themselves went for the same thing - to cause pain.
        Man is still a beast.
        1. +12
          9 July 2023 09: 22
          By the way, the skull with traces of scalping is the first fact known to me that this ritual existed among the Germans. Before that, I read only the most general instructions (like yes, I was) and only in the "popular" segment
      2. +11
        9 July 2023 09: 33
        Good afternoon, thank you of course for such an assessment.
        I want to say that in this article there is no problem statement and author's conclusions, except for a small piece in the conclusion. This is just descriptive material.
        It's just that the number of "interesting things" exceeded the critical mass, I decided to share it and the result was an article a la Shpakovsky. Although even in this form, it again took a disproportionately long time due to the need to translate all the material from German.
        1. +6
          9 July 2023 09: 51
          It's just that the number of "interesting things" exceeded the critical mass, I decided to share it and the result was an article a la Shpakovsky.
          It turned out great!
          Thank you, Denis!
          The only thing I didn’t understand was what the authors of that part of the exposition, which is dedicated to various mass graves at the battlefields, wanted to convey ...
          1. BAI
            +3
            9 July 2023 10: 05
            The horror of war
          2. +7
            9 July 2023 10: 10
            Well, how about. Indications have been found that corpses (or not quite corpses yet) were used as trophies in Kalkriza. The human remains of Ribemont-sur-Ancre and Alken Enge are obvious parallels; they became a trophy, the winners made a monument to their success out of them. In all cases, a certain ritual is visible.
            Visby is more likely to be heaped here, although you can also see it like this: mass graves of Kalkriese - mass graves of Visby
            1. +3
              9 July 2023 10: 26
              It was the presence of artifacts from Visby that surprised me. Some kind of cunning parallel, it could not have done without Lobachevsky's geometry.
        2. +4
          9 July 2023 09: 55
          in this article there is no problem statement and author's conclusions

          That's good news.
          What scope for imagination and conclusions of readers!
          Along the way - for a clash of opinions. And it's always interesting.
          From pompous Rome with its triumphs and splendor - to the hard life of a real war.
  3. +6
    9 July 2023 06: 20
    Many artifacts and bones found allow us to recreate and interpret the history of the battle in the Teutoburg Forest. what
    Everything is detailed and clearly described.
    Why, then, archaeologists still cannot find the same number of remains in the places of the Mamaev Battle and the Battle of Kalka.
    Where did the mass graves of the remains of the soldiers of these historical events go?request
    1. +8
      9 July 2023 09: 19
      Why, then, archaeologists still cannot find the same number of remains in the places of the Mamaev Massacre and the Battle of Kalka
      I don’t know about Kalka, but everything was found on the Kulikovo field. In 2005, there was an IZMIRAN expedition, found areas of 100x50 m with a different soil structure. The fact is that black soil destroys everything in a few centuries. The article was in the CP.
    2. +6
      9 July 2023 16: 32
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWVbw6rDCTU&list=PLqyPUl_TG1YMtwvsv1v10lbqFFfF7R36A&index=8
      According to the Battle of Kulikovo. Look.
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. +9
    9 July 2023 07: 41
    The article is interesting. Thanks to the author for the review of the exhibition!
    Unfortunately, exhibitions sometimes, in search of sensations, mislead the inexperienced public.
    For example, it is not always correct to draw such parallels: loric as a segmentata and armor from Vizby are not the same thing, and there is no evidence that one follows from the other.
    I was always amazed by the exhibitions in which, in order to attract the public, they collected weapons from different eras and tried to say: look all the same.
    What a scientific discovery! All swords are similar.
    The same is true of the old Russian mask.
    Old Russian mask found in Izyaslavl. Reconstruction by P. A. Vasin. The author of the reconstruction believes that such masks go back to Roman models through Byzantine antiquities.


    Quite hypothetical! From the ceremonial ancient Roman mask through Byzantium, and where were the masks in Byzantium, were the artifacts preserved? And to the ancient Russian masks.
    In Rus', masks are found primarily in the burials of Torks (Oghuz Turks), perhaps that is why the same Alexei Komnenos had some kind of protective mask on his helmet, and it did not come from any Romans. For 10 centuries, we do not encounter it in late Roman and Byzantine history.
    Archaeological finds must be treated with extreme caution.
    Unfortunately, in pursuit of sensations for the "collective unconscious" archaeologists admit scientific inaccuracy.
    1. +7
      9 July 2023 08: 29
      What a scientific discovery! All swords are similar.
      And spears - even more so!)))
    2. +6
      9 July 2023 08: 32
      Unfortunately, in pursuit of sensations for the "collective unconscious" archaeologists admit scientific inaccuracy.
      Not so much archaeologists as museum employees.
      But in principle, I, for once, absolutely agree with you, Edward! My regards!
    3. +7
      9 July 2023 09: 19
      Good afternoon,
      In fairness, no one exposes the brigantine from Visby as a descendant of the segmentata.
      Just celebrated some similarity. All. The same some the similarity is noted with the armor of Dendra and, for example, the laminar cuirass of the 16th century. No one represents them as links of one evolutionary chain.

      By helmet. Vasin in the article mentions Byzantine helmets with masks of the 11-12th century. But the chronological gap of almost 1000 years remains. I wrote to Mikhailov about this when we were recently discussing masks. However, there is such a point of view, so I added it to the materials.

      In general, the Germans, in my opinion, treat the interpretation of the finds not just cautiously, but too cautiously.
      1. +7
        9 July 2023 09: 27
        In general, the Germans, in my opinion, treat the interpretation of the finds not just cautiously, but too cautiously.
        The "curse of Schliemann" dominates over them.)))
      2. +5
        9 July 2023 13: 14
        Denis, good afternoon, and thanks ha interesting work! good

        no one exhibits a brigantine from Visby as a descendant of the segmentata.


        I am not an armor specialist, but the similarities between them are very relative. request

        1. +2
          9 July 2023 13: 50
          Hi Uncle Kostya!
          Just wondering where did you get the bottom photo?
          1. +4
            9 July 2023 14: 35
            Hello Anton! smile
            Purely randomly typed first

            brigantine armor: 2 thousand images are found in Yandex Pictures
            yandex.ru

            Then
            Lorica segmentata: 2 thousand images are found in Yandex Pictures
            yandex.ru

            Try it, it might pop up. Yes
            1. +4
              9 July 2023 14: 50
              The fact is that this device has nothing to do with the brigandine.
              1. +4
                9 July 2023 16: 00
                I'm telling you that I'm not a specialist in armor, you yourself know. But there were several photos with the caption "brigantine" and I chose the one I liked the most. By the way, the rest look even less like Roman armor.
                1. +4
                  9 July 2023 16: 13
                  By the way, the rest look even less like Roman armor.
                  Naturally, because the segmentata was "fur (iron) outward", and the brigandine was "fur inward".
                  1. The comment was deleted.
    4. BAI
      +5
      9 July 2023 10: 09
      I was always amazed by the exhibitions in which, in order to attract the public, they collected weapons from different eras and tried to say: look all the same.

      So what? Here in Suzdal, in one small room, there are weapons from before the Mongol period, and Western European weapons from the Time of Troubles. And nothing
  6. +5
    9 July 2023 08: 30
    Two thousand years ago, one kilometer north of the mountain, or rather the Kalkriese hill, was a huge swamp. Its swampy sections in some places approached the foot of the mountain, leaving a passage literally 100 meters wide, accessible to humans.


    It was not just a swamp, but a large eutrophicated lake. And, if the rate of its eutrophication, in the pre-industrial period, was so high that by now it has disappeared, then it means that there was an abundant supply of nutrients from the runoff basin, which in the early stages of eutrophication makes the reservoir very rich in herbivorous fish (+ near a large and rich forest ). Therefore, there may be remains of piled settlements of the Stone Age, although, of course, it will be much more difficult to find them.
  7. +6
    9 July 2023 10: 05
    even this was not enough to conquer the trans-Rhein regions

    Actually - the conquest did not take place for a very obvious reason. The Romans were very practical guys, and they did not spend colossal efforts on conquering lands from which there is obviously no and will not be profit. It was not the valor of the Germans at all, but the lack of economic sense that saved the then Germany. The content of the legion was very, very expensive, but what could be taken in such a zheppe of the world? A sack of oats and a tattered hide? That's why they stopped at the border along the Rhine ..
    1. +4
      9 July 2023 10: 35
      However, the Romans were clearly preparing to conquer Germania Magna. Drusus and Tiberius repeatedly invaded the Rhine. In the 16th year BC. Octavian personally arrived in Gaul to prepare the invasion. The Romans have already begun to allocate judges to resolve disputes between the Zarein tribes. The Germans began to serve in the Roman army in increasing numbers.
      Tacitus quite clearly calls Arminius "the liberator of Germany"

      As for the fighting qualities of the Germanic tribes, the Romans put them clearly above the Gauls since the time of Caesar.
      1. +2
        9 July 2023 13: 45
        Yes, they were not preparing conquest - but they wanted to bring the Germans to at least some kind of order. In order to stop the raids on its borders .. And in general, Rome succeeded in this, they massacred the most violent, the rest were bought corny .. Which provided the limes along the Rhine for 200 years of relative calm ..

        Conquest - what's the point? Again - there is nothing to take, and the supply of legions in Germany is extremely problematic. The local base is poor, and dragging from the center is far and expensive .. The border along the Rhine is much more profitable - and there is a river as a transport artery, and next to it is quite civilized Gaul ..
        1. +2
          9 July 2023 15: 17
          Yes, they were not preparing conquest - but they wanted to bring the Germans to at least some kind of order

          The Romans rightly perceived the Germans as a threat. The economic benefits of the conquest are obvious - a reduction in the total number of legions on the Rhine, the full involvement of the Germans in politics, and the elimination of the threat of devastating raids. Moving the border further to the Elbe, where its control will be carried out primarily by the Germans themselves, naturally friendly to Rome.
          Instead, in the future, the Romans had to fortify the limes along the Rhine at great expense, and the Germanic legions, because of the harsh conditions of service, became a hotbed of rebellion.

          It was for the final elimination of the German threat that Tiberius and Germanicus were preparing armies of hundreds of thousands. Precisely because the intention to capture Germany is quite obvious, Tacitus called Arminius "liberator".

          Just like in Britain there is nothing to take except the tin of Cornwall, but the Romans pushed the border right up to Hadrian's Wall and went right into the Caledonian marshes, trying to conquer the island entirely and eliminate any threat
          1. +3
            9 July 2023 15: 29
            Moving the border further to the Elbe

            How do you imagine supplying the legions on the Elbe? belay what

            As for Britain, there was no natural border with the Picts, who got no less than the Germans. So I had to look for the narrowest place to build a limes .. To go north - they went in revenge, but they never made a single serious attempt to conquer Caledonia .. All the intentions of the very zealous emperors - apparently immediately extinguished about the economy. As soon as the imperial office reported to the princeps Total: - the impulse of conquest immediately died down ..

            Well, it couldn’t, physically the Empire couldn’t conquer lands that didn’t fight off their defense! And so, two-thirds of the entire imperial budget is spent on legions. Ede-barely make ends meet and without adventures.

            In addition, the Germans at that time were by no means the most terrible threat. In the East, there was a much more dangerous enemy, the fight against which sucked all the loot. Parthia.
            1. +3
              9 July 2023 15: 33
              Just as 16 legions were supplied in Pannonia, as 100 thousand troops of Trajan were supplied across the Danube in the Carpathians
              After the conquest, the army can be divided by allocating separate sites for the legions. like in Britain. And then take away part of the legions, replacing them with a local auxilia. Like in Britain.
              Well, it couldn’t, physically the Empire couldn’t conquer lands that didn’t fight off their defense! And so, two-thirds of the entire imperial budget is spent on legions. Ede-barely make ends meet and without adventures.

              Fewer legions will be required with the conquest of Germany
              As for Britain, there was no natural border with the Picts, who got no less than the Germans. So I had to look for the narrowest place to build a limes.

              How did the Picts threaten even Cornwall?
              Threat Here, by the way, is the answer. Having won something, it is necessary to ensure the security of this-something, having won something else and secure the border. And so on ad infinitum. Empire trap. Until the tongue falls out or flies into the jug
              The Romans believed that the conquest of the Zarein regions was real. Having swallowed difficulties in the wars with Arminius and then with Civilis, I had to move from expansion to defense.
              In addition, the Germans at that time were by no means the most terrible threat. In the East, there was a much more dangerous enemy, the fight against which sucked all the loot. Parthia.

              Everything is the opposite. Augustus made peace with the Parthians in order to free his hands in Germany.
              1. +1
                9 July 2023 17: 28
                Dacia is still quite a rich place, there were even gold mines, and the state is strong. There - the costs paid off, before Aurelian. When it became clear again - the game is no longer worth the candle .. As for the supply - so along the Danube, and then carts. And there were some roads there, all the same, civilization, and not a dense forest.

                In Britain - the border over was kept only in Scotland. Which was supplied by the sea. In other places, things calmed down pretty quickly. Unlike Germany, where more than one century would obviously have been blazing. To smoke partisans out of a forest with swamps is not a rewarding task. Again - in Britain it was possible to supply troops based on local resources, but in the German swamps - this would be extremely problematic ..

                And again we return to the question - the meaning of the conquest of Germany? What could be taken there? What is useful there? Yes, there was even arable land - and that was only in forest glades!

                As for reconciled - well, they still understood that this world was up to the first sneeze. At any moment, the Parthian border could blaze. How to remove the legions from there? Moreover, the Parthian kings, that the subsequent Sasanian ones, always claimed the entire inheritance of the Achaemenids. Considering Egypt, Asia Minor and Syria as just temporarily lost territories ..
                1. +3
                  9 July 2023 18: 15
                  It is necessary to separate the problem of logistics and the problem of the expediency of conquest.
                  Why even argue if Tiberius was preparing to move 12 legions against Marobod, and Germanicus led 12 legions across the Rhine against Arminius.
                  And again we return to the question - the meaning of the conquest of Germany?

                  The Romans believed that Germany was gradually coming into their hands. More and more tribes show obedience, the Batavians receive the status of friends of Rome.
                  For the tenth time I am writing, the essence of the conquests is not only an increase in revenue, but also a reduction in costs. Conquer Germany, secure the border, get a base for recruiting, superior to the Gauls and especially the Italics. Take away the liberated legions to solve the same Parthian problem. Naturally, part of the troops will have to be left, but it is no longer necessary to concentrate 8-10-12 legions on the Rhine.
                  As for reconciled - well, they still understood that this world was up to the first sneeze. At any moment, the Parthian border could blaze. How to remove the legions from there?

                  There is a fact. Augustus never fought the Parthians. The Syrian border was not the main theater of operations under Augustus. The main ones were Germany, Pannonia, again Germany
                  1. 0
                    10 July 2023 16: 57
                    Well, how will the legions be freed ?? There will be a border along the Elbe and not along the Rhine - so there are the same Papuans! And it will be necessary to protect it, plus some vexillations for internal control ..

                    I didn’t fight with the Parthians, but then again, how to remove troops from the border with such a powerful state? As soon as you take the legions away, they will immediately shy away that it would not be bad on such an occasion to return the heritage of their ancestors ..
          2. +2
            9 July 2023 15: 38
            but the Romans pushed the border right up to Hadrian's Wall
            And 150 kilometers further, under Antoninus Pius.
    2. +2
      9 July 2023 11: 00
      Quote: paul3390
      Actually - the conquest did not take place

      The Romans controlled a vast territory, right up to the Elbe itself, and even shortly before the battle in the Teutoburg Forest they created a province - Germany...

      Quote: paul3390
      It was not the valor of the Germans at all, but the lack of economic sense that saved the then Germany

      Rome could no longer expand its borders - at least preserve what it was. I remember we talked about this last time...

      Quote: paul3390
      what could be taken in such a zheppe of the world?

      Taxes, natural products. The same that they took from the Gauls living in exactly the same hollow of the world...
      1. +3
        9 July 2023 13: 39
        Well - compared! Even before Caesar, Gaul was a completely civilized country, with a developed agriculture, some kind of cities, proto-state formations, a decent climate, etc.. There was still something to take.. And Germany? Continuous forests and swamps inhabited by Papuans in skins. Absolutely nothing interesting, at least not enough to justify the maintenance of the required number of legions in those parts ..

        You can’t get enough grub alone .. A legionary needs only a kilo of grain a day. Total - 180 tons per month per legion. Plus wine, vegetables, meat, hay for horses. Weapons, uniforms, other equipment. And the legions in Germany - whatever one may say, but would have to keep at least heels .. And - that's how to drag everything you need there? Carts? And how much would it cost? In the complete absence of roads? Yes, even salaries to the troops .. And what in return? The Germans have no money, cities too, primitive agriculture - that means you can’t take everything you need on the spot ... So why the hell does Rome need this?
    3. +2
      9 July 2023 14: 39
      and what could be taken in such a zheppe of the world?
      And what could be taken in an equally aphedronal Britain?
      1. +3
        9 July 2023 15: 20
        Yes, also tin ... A very valuable commodity at that time. And the economy of the Celts is not comparable with the German one. Plus - the ease of supply by sea ..

        And by the way, notice - as soon as the really hard times came, who was the first to be thrown overboard by the Empire? Yes, Britannia is .. Without even trying to defend it.
        1. +2
          9 July 2023 15: 48
          And the economy of the Celts is not comparable with the German one.
          Please explain how the British-Celtic level of development differs from the German one?
          My respect, Paul!
          1. 0
            10 July 2023 16: 52
            hi
            Well - you compare, say, the La Tene culture with the Yastforian one, and it will immediately become clear ..
      2. +3
        9 July 2023 16: 50
        For me, the answer to the question why the Romans did not conquer Germany may well lie in the field of climate. The farther east, the colder. The Romans reached the edge of the "comfort zone" and stopped.
        1. +3
          9 July 2023 17: 07
          Michael, in the courtyard of the "Roman climatic optimum", at the mouth of the Rhine, olives are earing!
          1. +2
            9 July 2023 18: 25
            We have already discussed this issue.
            Climate - all these optima and little ice ages - they are common to all of Europe. If it became one degree warmer, it became warmer everywhere. The trajectories of the isotherms do not change much, their value changes. The mountains of Europe both prevented the penetration of warm air from Africa, so they do, and the corridor for the movement of Arctic air from the Kara Sea to the East European Plain remained open.
            1. +2
              9 July 2023 18: 38
              And what then is the Rhine - "the border of the comfort zone"? On the left bank, the grapes ripen, and on the right, reindeer die from a poor harvest of reindeer moss from starvation?
              1. +3
                9 July 2023 18: 58
                It's just that the further east you go, the colder it gets. Only and everything. The Rhine is warmer than the Elbe and noticeably warmer than the Vistula.
                1. +2
                  9 July 2023 19: 17
                  It's just that the further east you go, the colder it gets.
                  This principle does not work. The second decade of the XNUMXth century: in Europe the "Great Famine", in Rus' - only three lean years.
                  1. +3
                    9 July 2023 19: 28
                    And what? How many examples of the opposite, when in Rus' they were starving, but in Europe everything was fine?
                    Do you know the rules without exceptions? smile
                    1. +2
                      9 July 2023 19: 39
                      Don't know. But to consider some kind of river "the border of the comfort zone", I think it's redundant. Of course, if you do not delve into the jungle of "historical psychology" and imply that this thesis was spelled out in the mentality of the Romans.
                      1. +2
                        9 July 2023 20: 33
                        The river is just a convenient frontier. Its shores are exactly the same.
                        Here I am going up some river with spinning. At first it was pecking, then less and less, and then it stopped. I reached a noticeable backwater, scratched my head and decided to return. I look, and downstream again the fish began to peck ...
                        And what will someone Anton say?
                        He will laugh and give out: “What, you want to say that fish pecked on this side of the backwater, but on that one, like, there isn’t? He showed his fist on the other bank, so he turned around!
                      2. +1
                        9 July 2023 20: 58
                        "Someone Anton" will not say anything, at least because he does not understand a damn thing about fishing. Hopefully, unlike history...
        2. +1
          9 July 2023 17: 31
          Yes - there is such a theory that the Romans did not go beyond the grape growing zone .. what wink
  8. +6
    9 July 2023 10: 53
    Good day to all! hi
    Denis, I read your article without stopping, I simply admire it! good Thank you very much! hi
    1. +6
      9 July 2023 11: 04
      Thank you, of course, but I'm even embarrassed.
      The fact that the article turned out "with spices" is the merit of the organizers of the exhibition
      I just climbed around the museum and the park, photographed the exhibits and translated nameplates with descriptions. Max opened Bishop's guidebook to segmentates
      1. +5
        9 July 2023 11: 27
        Thank you very much for your personal photos, as rarely any of the authors use their own, personal photos for articles.
        1. +7
          9 July 2023 12: 03
          Materials not included in the article

          Another brigantine from Visby. This time there are heraldic overlays on the rivets

          Pilum, of course

          No, this is not a sika dagger or a romfaya. This is a household tool for harvesting tree shoots for mules.


          Film stills illustrating segmentata mobility.
          1. +3
            9 July 2023 12: 11
            Quote: Engineer
            Materials not included in the article

            Another brigantine from Visby. This time there are heraldic overlays on the rivets

            Pilum, of course

            No, this is not a sika dagger or a romfaya. This is a household tool for harvesting tree shoots for mules.


            Film stills illustrating segmentata mobility.

            Thank you very much, Denis! hi
      2. +4
        9 July 2023 11: 31
        As for me, it is no worse than Vashchenko's article about Carnuntum or Shpakovsky about Vindolanda. And "just climbing and taking pictures" - that's another job, I know from myself.
        1. +5
          9 July 2023 11: 41
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          As for me, it is no worse than Vashchenko's article about Carnuntum or Shpakovsky about Vindolanda. And "just climbing and taking pictures" - that's another job, I know from myself.

          No, I'm just stating the fact that very few of the authors on VO post their personal photos in articles.
          1. +3
            9 July 2023 12: 19
            In vain you, Artem, state this. Shpakovsky, Ryzhov Vashchenko, N. Mikhailov, Sheps, Sviridov, Asanov... As a rule, authors prefer to use their own illustrative material. It's just that not everyone signs my photos, although this is the same intellectual property as the text. So, for example, I "pressed" Shpakovsky on this topic for 3 years in a row, finally finished it!
            1. +2
              9 July 2023 12: 28
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              In vain you, Artem, state this. Shpakovsky, Ryzhov Vashchenko, N. Mikhailov, Sheps, Sviridov, Asanov... As a rule, authors prefer to use their own illustrative material. It's just that not everyone signs my photos, although this is the same intellectual property as the text. So, for example, I "pressed" Shpakovsky on this topic for 3 years in a row, finally finished it!

              Sorry, didn't know about this!
              Personally, I have (so far) all the pictures from the Internet (both in articles and in comments).
              1. +5
                9 July 2023 12: 51
                Sorry, didn't know about this!
                Yes, everything is fine, Artem! It's just that you have recently been present on the resource and are not aware of all sorts of twists and turns. So, for example, you will not find a single comment marked with an author's green icon under the materials of Mikhailov, Sheps or, say, Bazhin (alas, so far the only article) because the publications were "from under the Shpakovsky franchise."
                1. +1
                  9 July 2023 13: 35
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Sorry, didn't know about this!
                  Yes, everything is fine, Artem! It's just that you have recently been present on the resource and are not aware of all sorts of twists and turns. So, for example, you will not find a single comment marked with an author's green icon under the materials of Mikhailov, Sheps or, say, Bazhin (alas, so far the only article) because the publications were "from under the Shpakovsky franchise."

                  Got it, thanks a lot Anton! hi
                2. Des
                  0
                  9 July 2023 18: 51
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  So, for example, you will not find a single comment marked with an author's green icon under the materials of Mikhailov, Sheps or, say, Bazhin (alas, so far the only article) because the publications were "from the Shpakovsky franchise."
                  or "The right to use a popular brand for commercial purposes." Could you explain in detail? Those. is this all - Shpakovsky himself or his business?
                  1. +1
                    9 July 2023 19: 50
                    Could you explain in detail?
                    For God's sake!
                    1. There are some very lazy subjects who are "scrap" to personally post materials on the resource. They, using a correspondence acquaintance and good relations with Shpakovsky, shamelessly exploit his account.
                    2. About the loot, that is, "Shpakovsky's business." Shpakovsky is extremely scrupulous in money matters. I don't know a single person who has published under his account, to whom he would not offer a share in the fee.
  9. +3
    9 July 2023 13: 12
    Without at all trying to belittle the quality of this article, which I consider high, I will nevertheless note that Denis's approach to writing articles with the initial formulation of the question and subsequent conclusions impresses me more. It's always interesting to know what thinks on one issue or another, an intelligent and erudite author. "Smart and erudite" in this case is a prerequisite. To some authors (I won’t point fingers, there won’t be enough fingers smile ) it would be better, just, to refrain from any conclusions. smile
    Later I will re-read the article and try to write something on the merits of its content. At the first reading, some fragmentary thoughts appeared, but they still need to be caught ... smile
    1. +3
      9 July 2023 13: 36
      Denis's approach to writing articles with the initial formulation of the question and subsequent conclusions impresses me more.
      Denis himself noted that the article was in the style of "a la Shpakovsky."
      Greetings, Michael!
      1. +4
        9 July 2023 17: 02
        My respect, Anton.
        I did go to Vyborg on Saturday. Returned home at midnight, tired to death. But I do not regret the time spent. smile
        As for Denis's article, I can only repeat myself: personally, the form of his work that he demonstrated in previous articles is closer to me. Question - research - answer. It is clear that the answer is likely to be controversial, but that is the point of our presence here - to scratch our rough tongues on the delicate skins of our colleagues. smile
        1. +2
          9 July 2023 17: 55
          I did go to Vyborg on Saturday. Returned home at midnight, tired to death. But I do not regret the time spent.
          "Where are the pictures, Billy? We need pictures!"))))
          1. +1
            9 July 2023 18: 38
            The photos are not very interesting. There is a video for more than twenty minutes, but also far from ideal.
            There are more interesting shots of their own, you can even see me among the audience on them. smile
            Posted on VK, you can see it here.
            https://vk.com/hmbrussia?search_track_code=c692a6bcec9OgIp13GWPN5Q_Fa7hlT-f5OksL5V3aNbDFIH7wIIvKZcILqMIsmwO9V500K3IYMGOqXt70SIG5NYJmpPB4w&z=video-109532566_456239238%2F793be4d8c84425d0e5%2Fpl_post_-109532566_5451
            1. +1
              9 July 2023 18: 58
              OK. Okay thanks, I'll take a look. But I still count on the pictures in the "group". Released next Tuesday, I'm going to an exhibition in the Hermitage. There will be an opportunity to join.
    2. +2
      9 July 2023 13: 37
      Good afternoon, Michael! hi
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      which I consider high

      I agree with this too! The article is just lovely! drinks good
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      It is always interesting to know what an intelligent and erudite author thinks on a particular issue.

      Agree! And it’s even more interesting when he tells or discusses something interesting in the comments! Yes
      1. +3
        9 July 2023 17: 06
        Greetings, Artyom.
        An article without a pronounced author's position just reduces the possibility of disputes. Pay attention - commentators argue, mainly with each other, and not with the author.
        1. +3
          9 July 2023 17: 18
          Antiquity is generally much less interesting to the average reader than the same Middle Ages.
          The segments here are not interesting at all.
          The question is whether the Germans had objective prerequisites to defend their independence at all, or whether this combination of random factors hung in the air.
          Is it possible that the Germans adopted the practice of scalping from the Sarmatians, and those from the Scythians? Yeah, well, some kind of crap, boring stuff.
          Did the Gauls at Ribemont-sur-Ancre cut down the hands and feet of the dead, or how did they return to the place of victory after some time in Alken Enge and lay down the trophy?
          1. +4
            9 July 2023 17: 45
            Antiquity is generally much less interesting to the average reader than the same Middle Ages.
            Here, who cares, Denis. On average, "for the hospital" I note the level of knowledge in Antiquity is much higher than in the Middle Ages. Maybe I'm biased.
          2. ANB
            +3
            10 July 2023 01: 58
            . Antiquity is generally much less interesting to the average reader than the same Middle Ages.

            Don't know. For me, the more ancient times it is written, the more interesting it is to read.
            At school, I was very upset when, after the 5th grade, I found out that we would no longer study the history of the ancient world.
        2. +1
          9 July 2023 17: 32
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          author's position

          I remember that in my last article, the opinion of the author was 80-90%. And then, remember, almost all commentators argued with me!
          1. +2
            9 July 2023 17: 59
            According to Mikhail, this is the very situation when "the game is a hundred candles"! ))))
          2. +3
            9 July 2023 18: 54
            You know, there are different authors.
            There are those whose opinion is interesting and useful to know.
            There are those who should learn a little before starting to create in the field of science pop.
            There are those for whom nothing will help, whose opuses can be thrown into a landfill without reading.
            All three categories are presented on VO.
            Denis' work is interesting to me, largely new, somewhat debatable. Even before publishing his first article here, this author has established himself as an intelligent and erudite interlocutor, and therefore the attitude towards him is appropriate.
            Although in relation to this article, I did not guess the author until the very end ... smile
            1. 0
              9 July 2023 19: 01
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              You know, there are different authors.
              There are those whose opinion is interesting and useful to know.
              There are those who should learn a little before starting to create in the field of science pop.
              There are those for whom nothing will help, whose opuses can be thrown into a landfill without reading.
              All three categories are presented on VO.
              Denis' work is interesting to me, largely new, somewhat debatable. Even before publishing his first article here, this author has established himself as an intelligent and erudite interlocutor, and therefore the attitude towards him is appropriate.
              Although in relation to this article, I did not guess the author until the very end ... smile

              Out of curiosity, which category do you think I fall into?
              1. +2
                9 July 2023 19: 30
                Of course, they don't talk about those present. smile
                But I think you can guess for yourself.
                Hint - not to the third. smile
                1. +1
                  9 July 2023 19: 34
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Of course, they don't talk about those present. smile
                  But I think you can guess for yourself.
                  Hint - not to the third. smile

                  So far, the second, but in August I plan to move on to the first. smile Yes
        3. +3
          9 July 2023 17: 40
          Pay attention - commentators argue, mainly with each other, and not with the author.
          Oh yeah! Gladiatorship - "Your everything", Michael!
          "I would like a katana, yes a horse,
          Yes, to the line of fire!" (C)
          ))))
          1. +3
            9 July 2023 18: 55
            I have long been a "peaceful atom", Anton. smile
  10. +5
    9 July 2023 15: 52
    Quote: Richard
    Richard (Richard)
    Today, 06: 46
    +9
    I want to read the works of Engineer on VO every day. But unfortunately Denis very rarely indulges us - his articles have not been on the site for more than a year. Which once again confirms the simple truth that "masterpieces are not baked like pancakes." The author is very grateful for the work done. This article will definitely go to my bookmarks.

    hi
    I warmly support!

    A little video on the topic.

    About lorica segmentate (from the UT channel of the local museum, it's interesting there)

    https://youtu.be/Pagbmw0Ec50


    A few German films for adults about this battle and the museum:

    https://youtu.be/VsxXJdCqSCU


    https://youtu.be/Ta8TJIkeAVQ
  11. +4
    9 July 2023 17: 12
    Actually, according to the content of the article, there is really nothing to say, except that the article is good. smile
    I am most interested in the question of reconstructing the events in the Teutoburg Forest in the light of what the author has said.
    It is a pity that Denis "did not dare" to carry out his own reconstruction of the battle, even if only in the form of a hypothesis. I think such a move on the part of the author could significantly enliven the discussion. smile
  12. +1
    9 July 2023 22: 45
    Still passionate, still a nation, the British. Either the country of Rhodesia will be created by one of them, then the pyramids will be unpacked, then the British major will find the place of the Teutobur catastrophe out of boredom ...
    1. 0
      10 July 2023 21: 04
      Quote: faterdom
      then the British major will find the place of the Teutobur disaster out of boredom ...


      The literary doctor Watson, getting involved in the affairs of Sherlock Holmes, showed himself to be a typical Briton. Probably, too, struggled so with bouts of boredom and the threat of domestic alcoholism.
  13. +1
    10 July 2023 10: 25
    A big surprise was the discovery in 1990 of the remains of the shaft, not mentioned by ancient writers.

    Good afternoon,
    I didn’t quite understand the situation with this shaft: it seems to have been erected by the Germans for military purposes, but everything is somehow strange. Its purpose would be clear if it blocked the "bottleneck", but it goes in parallel, and the assumption that its purpose was to further narrow the "bottleneck" in my opinion does not look very convincing, especially considering:
    According to the new interpretation, the Roman army not only entered the bottleneck at the foot of the mountain, but also set up camp there. The "Germanic" wall, apparently, was built before the battle and ended up right on the territory of the Roman camp. Next to it was something like a manor.

    Maybe this rampart was built much earlier and was originally of agricultural importance? taking into account that, judging by the finds of seeds, the area was cultivated and swampy, which makes it possible to make an assumption about its some kind of irrigation or protective purpose. And during the battle, it could clearly be used for military purposes. But that's just my guess. hi
    1. +1
      10 July 2023 12: 20
      If a manor appeared in the new interpretation, then the rampart could also have non-military significance.
      For the sake of interest, you can see the interpretation of the shaft in the Osprey book. She went out before the discovery of the Roman moats.
      1. +1
        10 July 2023 12: 48
        Quote: Engineer
        If a manor appeared in the new interpretation, then the rampart could also have non-military significance.
        For the sake of interest, you can see the interpretation of the shaft in the Osprey book. She went out before the discovery of the Roman moats.

        Taking into account the estate and the discovery of Roman ditches, the version that the Romans used the already existing rampart to build their camp seems more likely, which would be quite logical on their part.
        1. +1
          10 July 2023 13: 19
          Not yet confirmed.
          Roman ditches on the sides of the rampart. It seemed that it was not integrated into the overall structure and fell approximately in the center.
          1. +1
            10 July 2023 14: 06
            Quote: Engineer
            Roman ditches on the sides of the rampart. It seemed that it was not integrated into the overall structure and fell approximately in the center.

            Well, then the military purpose of this shaft seems all the more doubtful, if the Romans did not use it for such a purpose.
            Probably still a construction for agricultural or irrigation purposes.
            1. +1
              10 July 2023 14: 29
              Well, according to the new interpretation, this shaft did not play any significant (intelligible) role.
              I even titled the chapter "Key Finding or Source of Misconception?"
              But the rampart as a German fortification and an ambush element has already managed to penetrate into historiography.
              1. +1
                10 July 2023 14: 41
                Quote: Engineer
                But the rampart as a German fortification and an ambush element has already managed to penetrate into historiography.

                I didn’t see it, but somehow I immediately feel some tension in the thesis about the military purpose of this shaft.
                Regarding this thing:

                literally recently, it seems that on "Culture" I accidentally watched a program about such a sickle: there the guys made a replica of such a sickle, only there it was Celtic and bronze and, according to them, was used to harvest mistletoe branches.