"Froissart's Little Things" and more

103
"Froissart's Little Things" and more
Statue of Jean Froissart in Chime (Hinaut province), Belgium


Better small with justice,
than many things with unrighteousness.

Book of Tobit, 12:8

Documents stories. In the previous material devoted to Froissart's four-volume book, we showed a number of miniatures from these books, concluding that these "pictures", for all their discrepancy between the dates of writing and description, are nevertheless an important historical source. But many VO readers, firstly, asked to tell more about the author of these "Chronicles", and secondly, to continue the "story by pictures", because they are very interesting, beautiful and informative.



It is difficult to object to this, so today we will continue our story about warriors and military affairs of the XIV-XV centuries. based on Froissart's miniatures (and not only him!), but most importantly, we will consider some fragments of his illustrations, magnifying them to the maximum. I am sure that in this way we will be able to see a lot of interesting things that the eye does not always notice in multi-figure illustrations.

But let's start with clarifying his biography.

Biography


He was born in 1333 or 1337 in Valenciennes, and died about 1405. Moreover, Froissart himself named for some reason two dates of his birth - 1333 and 1337. The first date was determined from the text in the Chronicle, where he wrote that in 1390 he was 57 years old.

It was only at the end of Book IV that he suddenly remembered that when he was present at the farewell of Queen Philippa and the Prince of Wales at Berkwemsted in 1361, he was 24. That is, his date of birth is different from the first - 1337. Apparently, he forgot or mixed up something.

He was a Walloon by birth and came from Valenciennes in Hainaut (Hennegau). It is believed that his father was a simple coat of arms craftsman, that is, he made coats of arms to order. Until 1359, Froissart was engaged in ... trade, but then he ended up in Prague and there he became a clerk at the court of King Charles IV of Luxembourg, where he met the legendary Petrarch, who at that time lived in Prague and was preparing to move to Venice.

At the age of 24, having secured the recommendation of Charles IV, who wrote about him as a court ... poet, he went to England and from 1361 to 1369 acted as a chronicler at the court of Queen Philippa, wife of King Edward III of England. All this time he traveled around Europe, visited France, and in 1367-1368. He also visited Italy, where he was with another famous person of his time - Geoffrey Chaucer.

When Philippa died in 1369, Froissart moved under the patronage of the Duchess of Brabant, Joanna, who gave him an estate in Hainaut. And the income from it turned out to be sufficient to travel in search of materials for the chronicles at his own expense.

But research - research, "chronicles" - "chronicles", but he also continued to write poetry. In 1395, Froissart returned to England, but he did not like it there. He discovered the decline of chivalry.

The exact date of his death is unknown. Just from a certain time, his name disappears from the documents.

Thumbnails


As we have already noted, his "Chronicles" consist of 4 books.

"Book I" is considered the most interesting. There are three main editions: the Amiens Manuscript, the A/B Family Manuscript, and the Roman Manuscript.

The first exists in only one list by an unknown copyist, and it was made around 1491. The “A/B Family Manuscript” is known in several dozen lists (!), and they are still not completely systematized. As for the "Roman Manuscript", it also survived in only one list. Until today, historians are only engaged in deciding which of the lists is the earliest and in what years it was written, but ... They never came to a consensus. However, for our purposes they are not essential.


Froissart. Sculpture by Philippe Joseph Henri Lemaire (1798–1880), Louvre

But something else is important for us, namely: miniatures from these manuscripts, and we will not start with them, but with the work of Josephus Flavius ​​in three volumes with illustrations. They were prepared for printing by William Whiston, and they were first published in 1667-1752.

What a Roman historian could write about is well known. He is the author of two works written in Greek - "The Jewish War" (about the uprising of 66-71 years) and "The Antiquities of the Jews". And what's funny, the text is about ancient history, but the armor, weapon and the design of the pages with a head give out the beginning of the XNUMXth century. And, by the way, the illustrations depicting all this are just great!


Scene from Antiquities of the Jews. Another version of David killing Goliath. He had already received a stone on the forehead, David had already thrown his sling, and now he swung his sword, and a very peculiar shape, to cut off his head. George Routledge & Sons, Ltd.; New York, E. P. Dutton & Co. Digitization sponsor Brigham Young University. Contributor Harold B. Lee Library. National Library of France


And here is the scene from the "Jewish War". But it is clear that the illustrator does not make a difference between the Roman soldiers and the equestrian men-at-arms of his day. It is interesting that the main helmet in the illustration is a sallet, and many riders have an additional cover on the visor - there are no finds of such helmets. The "chapelle de fer" depicts only one rider. No one has shields - the armor at the beginning of the XNUMXth century had already become so strong that they were abandoned. And very characteristic spears with an asymmetrical handle. Same source


The design of the manuscripts, as you can see, at that time was very similar ...

So, what do the same miniatures by Froissart tell us, the design of which, as we have seen, is typical of the XNUMXth century, although they deal with events a hundred years ago? Let's take a look at them first...


Here is the "Siege of Reims in 1359-1360 by Edward III" from the Chronicle of Froissart. First of all, jupons over armor and a variety of all kinds of polearms are striking. And also - a double-barreled gun with interchangeable chambers in the foreground. Miniature from the "Chronicles" by Jean Froissart, XV century. National Library of France

Battle of Poitiers, 1356. Archers against men at arms!


Different lists - different illustrators. Capture of John the Good at the Battle of Poitiers. Miniature from the "Chronicles" by Jean Froissart, XV century. National Library of France


Battle of Saint Clement in 1358. Brigands - men-at-arms, dart throwers with paveses, against English archers


And here is the "Battle of Nogent-sur-Seine 1359 between the Bishop of Troyes and the combined troops of the British and Navarrese." The French on horseback attacked the English in three battles of 400 men each (a total of about 400 men at arms and 200 archers), but they, dismounting and shortening their spears to 5 feet, met with an impenetrable wall, besides, they were supported by archers. But then 900 foot brigands with strong pavises and darts approached the French, threw them at the archers and put them to flight, and then set to work on the infantry. The English fled, and the French cavalry rushed to pursue them. Everything is very accurate on the miniature, even the white suit of Brocard de Fenestrange's horse, who commanded the French cavalry

And now there are individual figures in close-up.


Here is the first of them - a typical French armor of the very beginning of the XNUMXth century - a sallet helmet with a forehead, a brigandine with rivet heads and rondels on the chest (we emphasize that the names of these parts of the armor are besagu, but round ones could be called that!)


Mail underpants over chaises... funny!


Two more at-arms 1401–1500 Both on that and on the armor, but the torso is covered with jupons, and on the fact that on the left it is also decorated with cuts on the sleeves, a split hem and badges sewn on the chest. The helmet is a sallet, but with headphones. Behind them are warriors dressed in brigandines, in a word - all this infantry is armed a little worse than the knightly cavalry! Well, swords - typical swords of this era with a piercing hardened blade of a rhombic section!


But this is a crossbowman, so he is wearing a little armor. However, he also has something metallic under his jacket, behind his back on a belt is a rather fantastic-looking shield, knee pads and a helmet - a French salad. The artist also depicted in detail the device hanging on his belt - the “English collar” for the crossbow. That is, at the time of illustrating this volume of "Chronicles" (1470), such "knobs" were still used by crossbowmen


Again, for comparison, let's look at this fragment of a miniature from the Chronicle of Hainaut, an illustrated manuscript in three volumes that traces the history of the county of Hainaut up to the end of the 1446th century. Its text was written around 1450-1390 by Jean Vauquelin as a French translation of the Illustrated Annals of the County of Hainaut, a three-volume work in Latin written by Jacques de Guise around 1396-XNUMX. And again, if you do not know this, then you might think that this is ... a drawing from Froissart's manuscripts. The armor and weapons are well done. Moreover, the armor on Count Hainaut (in the center and in the bascinet with a crown) is clearly gilded. Royal Library of Belgium in Brussels


This illustration in Froissart's "Chronicle" just shows the use of a very large rondel dagger and what was sometimes hidden among the then warriors under their clothes made of fabric ...


By the way, judging by the miniatures, the gilding of armor was quite widespread, and in the era of smooth armor it was one of the main forms of decoration. "The Capture of Châtellerault by the French in 1370" Miniature from Froissart's Chronicle


If you carefully examine the miniatures of those years, you can see a lot of curious armor. For example, this one: brigandine armor with a plate breastplate and a steel skirt - a redrawing from miniatures for the chronicles of Jean Froissart, ca. 1470 Illustration from Immanuel Viollet-le-Duc's book. National Library of France


Another armor from the work of Viollet-le-Duc is a plate breastplate and a steel skirt. Illustration from the book by Immanuel Viollet-le-Duc. That is, the upper part of the cuirass in some cases could be missing and vice versa. That is, one set of armor, if desired, could be turned into two - for one warrior the top, the other - the bottom!


But more surprising than all the soldiers in leather bracers from Giacomo Jaquerio's book Ascending Calvary, ca. 1410. He does not wear a shirt, which is replaced by two pieces of fabric, or one piece with a hole for the head, tied on the sides with ropes. The stockings are attached to the shorts on strings with a wooden crutch. Below the knees, the legs are protected by leather greaves wrapped in ropes. The equipment is complemented by a chic leather combat belt, reinforced with four belts and metal plates. Since a mythical plot is depicted, it is obvious that the artist simply decided not to strain his imagination and depicted what he saw and what he was well aware of, because otherwise why would he need to draw all these little things? That is, in 1470, types dressed in this way met ...


And this is how I designed the first volume of the "Chronicles" by Froissart "Master Virgil" "The Battle of Poitiers"
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  1. +5
    21 February 2023 04: 52
    But more surprising than all the soldiers in leather bracers from Giacomo Jaquerio's book Ascending Calvary, ca. 1410. He does not wear a shirt, which is replaced by two pieces of fabric, or one piece with a hole for the head, tied on the sides with ropes. The stockings are attached to the shorts on strings with a wooden crutch.

    Mortus?
  2. +7
    21 February 2023 05: 20
    gilding of armor was quite widespread


    Why is the armor gilded? Maybe just bronze? Yes, and would not have climbed the wall, like a simple soldier, a man with gilded armor. I would have stood somewhere at a distance and led the assault ...
    1. +3
      21 February 2023 05: 40
      Why is the armor gilded?

      We do not consider the availability of suitable paint from the artist? I personally had a chance to paint the facades of furniture for hairdressing salons with gold, because it was ...
      1. +3
        21 February 2023 05: 52
        Quote: Kerensky
        We do not consider the availability of suitable paint from the artist?

        It is quite clear that the armor is not gold, but gold plating is not a cheap pleasure either. At that time, gold was mined from Gulkin Nos, and in Europe (in my opinion) there were no reserves of it at all ...
        1. +6
          21 February 2023 08: 19
          It is necessary to look at the research on the miniatures of the Chronicle.
          It is possible that the miniaturist did it just for beauty, to shade the black armor.
          Surely there are works and comparisons of images in the Chronicle of the end of the XNUMXth century. and real armor of the XNUMXth century, although there are not so many of them compared to the XNUMXth century.
          In the miniatures of the chronicle, "golden" armor is not often used, most often when depicting kings or dukes.
          The Italians of the XNUMXth century There is little "gold" in the equipment, for example, Botticelli "Mars and Venus", and then, rather, non-ferrous metal.
          But gold is most likely associated with kings, for example, the full equipment of 1484 was made by Lorenzo Helschmidt (1467 - 1516) for Maximilian I, but from the very end of the XNUMXth - and especially in the XNUMXth century. gold was used to the fullest.
          1. +5
            21 February 2023 09: 17
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            It is possible that the miniaturist did it just for beauty, to shade black armor

            It started to occur to me too...
    2. +3
      21 February 2023 05: 50
      Maybe just bronze?
      I would guess tinkering...
      1. +4
        21 February 2023 05: 57
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        I would guess tinkering

        They usually tin with tin, although they add various additives to it. Perhaps these additives give such a yellowish color to the armor ...
      2. +2
        21 February 2023 20: 29
        Maybe just bronze?
        I would guess tinkering

        ,,, maybe just polished winked
    3. +4
      21 February 2023 08: 23
      Yes, and would not have climbed the wall, like a simple soldier, a man with gilded armor. I would have stood somewhere at a distance and led the assault ...

      How to explain ... Well, leading from afar is not heroic, but asking an artist to portray himself fearless on an assault ladder is completely different, although maybe then the noble knights were "ahead of everyone, on a dashing horse."
      1. +4
        21 February 2023 09: 20
        Quote: Konnick
        ask the artist to depict himself fearless on the assault ladder

        It is unlikely that these are some noble people - they have helmets, all of them, like a carbon copy ...
        1. +3
          21 February 2023 10: 31
          It is unlikely that these are some noble people - they have helmets, all of them, like a carbon copy ...

          Fashion always involves herding. And as for gold ... remember the Battle of the Golden Spurs and, accordingly, an article by the respected Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
          https://topwar.ru/191881-bitva-zolotyh-shpor-pehota-protiv-konnicy.html
          1. 0
            21 February 2023 10: 58
            And as for gold ... remember the Battle of the Golden Spurs and, accordingly, an article by the respected Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
            https://topwar.ru/191881-bitva-zolotyh-shpor-pehota-protiv-konnicy.html

            On the forum under this article, I analyzed in detail the impossibility of the existence of these very "golden spurs".
      2. +1
        21 February 2023 10: 08
        ask the artist to depict himself fearless on the assault ladder

        Good hypothesis. But then the artist must also be asked for identification, for example, to depict a coat of arms on a shield or clothes
        1. +3
          21 February 2023 10: 33
          But then the artist must also be asked for indification

          This is how many pictures to draw ... and then he drew one and everyone in gilded armor could say that it was he laughing
    4. +4
      21 February 2023 08: 36
      Quote: Luminman
      would not have climbed the wall like a simple soldier, a man with gilded armor.

      Controversial assertion. I'm afraid that you are projecting the realities of later eras onto the Middle Ages. In those days, the military leader had to demonstrate personal courage and combat skill on the battlefield - including leading attacks.
      1. +3
        21 February 2023 09: 02
        Agree. For example, after Nancy, the body of Charles the Bold was identified only by indirect signs.
        1. +3
          21 February 2023 09: 45
          A Luminman colleague believes that
          Quote: Luminman
          Fighting the enemy, sitting on a dashing horse, and even in gilded armor, is worthy of any military leader, but climbing a ladder is somehow not very

          It is interesting on what basis such conclusions were drawn.
          1. 0
            21 February 2023 10: 19
            It is interesting on what basis such conclusions were drawn.
            It is difficult to say, perhaps from a mediocre knowledge of the subject of discussion. However, I want to note that I like the work of my colleague himself.
          2. +3
            21 February 2023 11: 32
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            It is interesting on what basis such conclusions were drawn.

            Based on the fact that it is difficult for me to imagine Comrade. Zhukov, running around Berlin with a PPSh at the ready, and Herr Rommel, sitting in a tank on the crest of a dune ... wink
            1. 0
              21 February 2023 12: 19
              I repeat:
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              you are projecting the realities of later eras onto the Middle Ages.

              and, surprisingly, you do it consciously, although you have already been pointed out the fallacy of such a direct approach.
      2. +3
        21 February 2023 09: 15
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        the military leader was required to demonstrate personal courage on the battlefield

        Fighting the enemy, sitting on a dashing horse, and even in gilded armor, is worthy of any military leader, but climbing a ladder is somehow not very ... wink
        1. +3
          21 February 2023 09: 30
          In vain you think so.
          The assault on Jerusalem in the first crusade comes to mind, when Gottfried of Bouillon was one of the first to climb the wall.
          You can also remember the storming of Acre during the third crusade, when Leopold of Austria was one of the first to climb the wall and set his flag on it, which was torn down by Richard the Lionheart, which caused a grandiose conflict.
          I think there are other similar cases.
          1. +3
            21 February 2023 10: 48
            I think there are other similar cases.

            Menshikov in Noteburg
            1. +2
              21 February 2023 11: 37
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              when Gottfried of Bouillon climbed the wall one of the first

              This is no-one's need for courage. Yes, and according to the recollections, this Gottfried was somehow inadequate ...

              PS K. E. Voroshilov, being a marshal, on the Leningrad front also raised soldiers to attack. But this only speaks of his personal courage, but not of his intelligence ...
              1. +1
                21 February 2023 12: 37
                Quote: Luminman
                This is no-one's need for courage.

                You are wrong. The history of the Middle Ages is simply teeming with manifestations of such "unnecessary" courage, sometimes with very sad consequences for the "brave", both in Europe and in Rus'. Do you think that this, I'm not afraid of this word, "mass" manifestation of personal military prowess among those in power with a real risk to their lives was due only to their "inadequacy"?
                Understand: according to medieval concepts, a military leader was must take a direct part in the battle, while showing personal courage, strength and skill. Otherwise, they simply won't follow him.
                Gottfried of Bouillon, by the way, was a very authoritative character of his time and in many ways was the image of an ideal ruler, according to contemporaries. No one considered him inadequate, and he was not.
                And explain to me, please, what kind of sacred difference do you see between the manifestation of courage and bravery on the battlefield and the same during the assault on the fortress wall? Why do you think the first is acceptable for a sovereign seigneur, and the second is stupidity?
                1. +3
                  21 February 2023 13: 13
                  Otherwise, they simply won't follow him.
                  In this vein, the act of Richard III, who refused to flee from Bosworth Field, is indicative.
            2. +4
              21 February 2023 11: 44
              Menshikov in Noteburg

              Eduard, there is an opinion that the stairs then turned out to be made shorter than the height of the walls. And they didn't climb the walls. But after several hours of skirmishing, the Swedes lost their nerve. drinks
            3. +1
              21 February 2023 11: 45
              I think there are other similar cases.

              Why go far - the same John the Good, about whom Froissart writes in the first part of his chronicles
    5. +7
      21 February 2023 10: 43
      Drying oil + bronze powder - that's the bronze paint for the armor is ready. And on a miniature, the difference with gold paint is difficult to convey.
  3. +3
    21 February 2023 05: 49
    An interesting detail.

    In this oft-quoted miniature, John the Good is depicted with a sword, while written sources state that under Poitiers the king fought with a brodex.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. -3
      21 February 2023 08: 15
      Good day to all
      Anton hi

      Am I the only one who thinks this latnik looks like GDP?
      1. -5
        21 February 2023 08: 44
        Hello Dmitry!
        After the "Pechenegs and Polovtsy" I will not be surprised at anything.)))
    2. +2
      21 February 2023 09: 09
      while written sources state that under Poitiers the king fought with a brodex


      And one more "discrepancy" in this miniature from the "Chronicles" by Jean Froissart: John is depicted all in royal lilies, although written sources indicate that on the day of the battle, John and nineteen knights from his personal guard dressed the same, so that the king was more difficult to capture . Despite this precaution, John was captured. Although he fought valiantly, fighting with a large battle axe, his helmet was pierced. Surrounded, he fought to the end and was captured along with his youngest son Philip (later - Duke Philip II of Burgundy
  4. +2
    21 February 2023 06: 37
    plate girdle
    This detail is called - plakart. The upper part of the cuirass is a plastron (later this term was transferred to the name of a part of the men's wardrobe).
    1. +1
      21 February 2023 08: 23
      It is believed that his father was a simple coat of arms craftsman, that is, he made coats of arms to order.

      Is not a fact. From individual statements found in his writings, we can conclude that he came from a family of wealthy townspeople who traded in cloth.
      link: Anikeev M. V. Jean Froissart and the history of the creation of his "Chronicles" // Jean Froissart. Chronicles. 1325-1340. - SPb., 2009. - S. 5.
      1. +2
        21 February 2023 08: 28
        He was born in 1333 or 1337 in Valenciennes, and died about 1405. Moreover, Froissart himself named for some reason two dates of his birth - 1333 and 1337

        .The date of his death, as well as the date of birth, is disputed. A. D. Lyublinskaya and E. Yu. Akimova agree that the year of his death is 1404. The modern researcher and publisher of his chronicles M. V. Anikeev, following the pre-revolutionary Russian medievalist I. M. Grevs, names a later date of death - 1410, explaining this by the fact that starting from 1410, the traces of the author are lost and his historical narrative stops . The place of his death and burial has not been established either.
  5. +6
    21 February 2023 07: 41
    They still don't know how to draw, but the detail is just amazing!
    Surprised by darts in the 15-6th centuries
    1. +1
      21 February 2023 08: 17
      Surprised by darts in the 15-6th centuries
      Because these are not darts, but alshpis.
      1. +1
        21 February 2023 08: 48
        Because these are not darts, but alshpis.

        - Yes, this is the same "armor piercer" alshpis


        1. -2
          21 February 2023 08: 51
          Because these are not darts, but alshpis.

          And here is a video about it
          1. +2
            21 February 2023 09: 06
            What great comments today. Just the soul rejoices!
            1. +2
              21 February 2023 09: 38
              Yes, Anton 3x3zsave here out of competition - his theme good
              1. +3
                21 February 2023 10: 34
                out of competition
                I would not be so categorical. In my opinion, Denis (Engeneer) is out of competition on the topic of medieval militarism.
                1. +3
                  21 February 2023 11: 28
                  In my opinion, beyond competition on the topic of medieval militarism (Engeneer).

                  Denis is not on this thread today
              2. +5
                21 February 2023 13: 03
                Quote: Richard
                Anton 3x3zsave is out of competition here

                I sincerely applaud the progress that Anton has made recently in expanding and deepening his knowledge of the European Middle Ages. "Recently" should be understood as "over the past few years." smile
                Tell me, Anton, now you understand my attitude towards the "alternatives" (in the good sense of the word) three-four-five years ago? Or do you continue to think that a fictional story can be more exciting than a real one? smile
                1. +3
                  21 February 2023 13: 34
                  Tell me, Anton, now you understand my attitude towards the "alternatives" (in the good sense of the word) three-four-five years ago? Or do you continue to think that a fictional story can be more exciting than a real one?
                  Michael, you are a provocateur!)))
                  I still believe that in order to write a good alternative it is necessary to have extensive knowledge of the era being described.
                  1. +4
                    21 February 2023 13: 48
                    The question is: is it interesting for you to come up with these "alternatives" now? Does this topic interest you the way it did a few years ago? smile
                    1. +3
                      21 February 2023 14: 37
                      1. Alas, my literary talent is not enough, unlike I. Ochenkov or A. Kolobov.
                      2. If you choose between Favier, Druon and Martyanov, then Druon will be in last place. Regarding the other two, it all depends on whether I have the opportunity to "read with a pencil."
                      1. +4
                        21 February 2023 14: 58
                        Favier did not read. This omission should be corrected.
                        But I would put Druon above Martyanov, definitely. Or rather, for me, these are incomparable values. smile
                        But in my rating, Balashov and even Pikul will always be higher than any alternative player. It's better then to read pure "fantasies" ... smile
                      2. +2
                        21 February 2023 15: 16
                        Favier did not read. This omission should be corrected.
                        I can mail it.
                      3. +2
                        21 February 2023 15: 19
                        If not difficult. smile
                        Sorry, I'm not smart enough to write a normal comment
            2. 0
              21 February 2023 09: 51
              It’s good when a person’s soul rejoices when he looks at the work of his hands. smile It happens, of course, that mediocre, even by VO standards, material causes interesting discussions, but as a rule, the level of comments directly depends on the quality of the material. smile
      2. +6
        21 February 2023 09: 34
        It was about throwing darts, you can’t throw alshpis. In the picture, yes, heavy spears
        1. 0
          22 February 2023 21: 14
          It was about throwing darts, you can’t throw alshpis.

          Thank you Ivan
          Now it is clear why both I and a colleague 3x3zsave received six minuses for their comments about alshpis, which are depicted on 90% of miniatures in Frissar's chronicles. Yes
          The wind blows from the explanation of Shpakovsky's miniatures smile
          Battle of Saint Clement in 1358. Brigands - men-at-arms, dart throwers with paveses, against English archers

          и
          And here is the "Battle of Nogent-sur-Seine 1359 between the Bishop of Troyes and the combined troops of the British and Navarrese." The French on horseback attacked the English in three battles of 400 men each (a total of about 400 men at arms and 200 archers), but they, dismounting and shortening their spears to 5 feet, met with an impenetrable wall, besides, they were supported by archers. But then 900 foot brigands with strong pavises and darts approached the French, threw them at the archers and put them to flight, and then set to work on the infantry.

          You, Ivan, quite logically write:
          Surprised darts

          Others were led to these "explanations" by Shpakovsky to the miniatures.
          Here, to put it mildly, the author writes a complete gag. To be convinced of this, it is enough to read the Great French Chronicles (fr. Grandes Chroniques de France, or the Chronicles of Saint-Denis, where these battles are described. And nowhere is there a word about "brigands with strong pavises and darts with which they threw archers.
          The same Frissar chronicles write:
          Nogent-sur-Seine (June 23, 1359)
          Eustache d'Aubrichicourt's Englishmen, at Froissart Oberchicourt (400 men-at-arms and 200 archers), dismounted and took up defensive positions on a gentle hillside, with the men-at-arms standing separately and slightly below the shooters. The French Brocard de Fenetrange had 1200 horsemen at arms (in 3 "troops") and 900 infantrymen with spears and paveses. The first French "army" with Brokar himself attacked the English at-arms, but was repulsed. Not daring to attack a second time, the cavalry circled the British, hoping to take them on the flank, but they constantly turned their front to the enemy and were supported by archers. But the French infantry approached. She rushed at the archers, knocked them over, for the arrows did not pierce the paveses, and put them to flight. At the same time, the 1st and 3rd "troops", under the cover of this attack on the position of the archers, surrounded the men at arms and, after a stubborn battle, defeated them. The 2nd "army" pursued the fleeing riflemen and inflicted huge losses on them, then quickly turned back and captured the English convoy and horses.

          Especially for the Author:
          - there will be free time, look at the Internet, see who the "brigands" are. Then you will be surprised to learn that this is not a dart and pavezo ( belay ) throwers, as you write.
          -Darts were used in the Hundred Years War, but not on one of the miniatures you cited, they simply do not exist.
          rice. Throwing spears or darts at a boar. Venetian engraving (1509)

          And the advice is to more responsibly make captions for inserted pictures so as not to mislead readers.
  6. +5
    21 February 2023 09: 50
    But more surprising than all the soldiers in leather bracers from Giacomo Jaquerio's book Ascending Calvary, ca. 1410


    Yes, the belt is powerful, the panties are not family!
    wassat )))
    Good morning everyone! )))
  7. +5
    21 February 2023 10: 37
    I wonder how the artist painted miniatures? Like an ordinary artist - with sitters, sketches? Or from memory? It is clear that he was told about the plot of the miniature and something that he could see for himself. But how to remember such small and different details? There are canons in icon painting and no one bothers with trifles there, but in miniatures?
    1. +3
      21 February 2023 11: 48
      Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
      How does an artist draw miniatures? Like an ordinary artist - with sitters, sketches? Or from memory? But how to remember such small and different details?

      Delno! This question should be moved to the top of the comments. Or post it in the article itself...
      1. +3
        21 February 2023 12: 50
        Quote: Luminman
        This question should be moved to the top of the comments.

        But why?
        Why not assume that each artist had his own drawing technique for each case and did not limit himself to any "rules" when writing miniatures? And in fact, it most likely was. As it was convenient for someone - they did it. Someone made sketches, someone drew from life, and then vice versa ... Someone said: "Bring me a helmet, I will draw it", someone said: "I'll go and see what helmets they wear today", and someone: "What are you, completely cuckoo? Have you ever seen a helmet?" And all three went to draw miniatures.
        Silly, by and large, a question. It only makes sense if we are convinced or know for sure that the process of writing miniatures at that time was strictly regulated and we are interested in the details of this mandatory regulation.
        1. +2
          21 February 2023 13: 36
          I tried to find on the Internet by whom, where and when the miniatures for these chronicles were made. Didn't find anything.
          But the full content of the "Chronicles of Froissart" came across:
          Book I (1322-1377)
          Deposition of Edward II and accession to the throne of Edward III (1327)
          Execution of Hugh Despenser the Younger (1326)
          Scottish campaign of Edward III (1327)
          Wedding of Edward III and Philippa of Gennegau (1328)
          Edward III's homage to Philip VI (1331)
          Thierache campaign of Edward III (1339)
          Battle of Sluys (1340)
          War of the Breton Succession ("War of the Two Jeans") (1341-1364)
          Battle of Crécy (1346)
          Siege of Calais (1346-1347)
          Battle of Neville's Cross (1346)
          Battle of Vinchelsea ("Battle of the Spaniards at Sea") (1350)
          Battle of Poitiers (1356)
          Etienne Marcel leads the Parisian uprising (1357-1358)
          Jacquerie (1358)
          Peace in Brétigny (1360)
          "Great Companies" of the 1360s
          Death of the French King John II (1364)
          Civil war in Castile (1366-1369)
          Siege of Limoges (1370)
          Death of Edward the Black Prince (1376)
          Death of Edward III and accession of Richard II (1377)
          Book II (1376-1385)
          Great Western Schism (1378-1417)
          Wat Tyler's Rebellion (1381)
          Battle of Rosebeck (1382)
          Marriage of Charles VI and Isabella of Bavaria (1385)
          Book III (1386-1388)
          Murder of young Gaston de Foix by his father
          French preparations for the (failed) invasion of England (1385-1387)
          Judicial duel between Jean de Carrouge and Jacques Le Gris (1386)
          Conflict of Richard II with uncles
          Battle of Otterburn (1388)
          Book IV (1389-1400)
          "Ball of the Flames" (1393)
          Tournament at Smithfield hosted by Richard II
          Death of Gaston III (Phoebe) de Foix (1391)
          Madness of Charles VI
          Deposition of Richard II and accession of Henry IV (1399)
          Battle of Nicopolis and massacre of captives (1396)
          1. +3
            21 February 2023 16: 17
            The first two books were translated into Russian by Anikeev, whom you mentioned.
            1. +1
              21 February 2023 20: 46
              the books have been translated into Russian by the Anikeev you mentioned.

              I know. I have the first two
        2. +2
          21 February 2023 13: 41
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Quote: Luminman
          This question should be moved to the top of the comments.

          But why?
          Why not assume that each artist had his own drawing technique for each case and did not limit himself to any "rules" when writing miniatures? And in fact, it most likely was. As it was convenient for someone - they did it. Someone made sketches, someone drew from life, and then vice versa ... Someone said: "Bring me a helmet, I will draw it", someone said: "I'll go and see what helmets they wear today", and someone: "What are you, completely cuckoo? Have you ever seen a helmet?" And all three went to draw miniatures.
          Silly, by and large, a question. It only makes sense if we are convinced or know for sure that the process of writing miniatures at that time was strictly regulated and we are interested in the details of this mandatory regulation.


          Nonsense. History is a science, and here the heading is called "history", and not "speculation about history" or "most likely it was so." This question, like thousands of others, is asked by historians, and real historians are looking for answers to them according to accepted scientific methods, and all sorts of "historical chronologists" answer in a similar spirit.
          1. +2
            21 February 2023 14: 06
            I guess I misunderstood your question, sorry. It seemed to me that its content implies a blanket denial of the value of these images as a source of historical knowledge. My comment only makes sense in this context.
            1. +4
              21 February 2023 15: 19
              The question was about the technique of the work of a miniaturist. Indeed, much is known about contemporary artists, right down to the names of their sitters, how much money was paid for the glorification of the image and the image in a favorable form. And what is known about the miniaturists? Have their drafts, sketches of works, etc. been preserved? After all, an ordinary artist arranges sitters and draws them for hours, down to the smallest details. What does a miniaturist do? Does he sit down next to an eyewitness and "drawn correctly from my words" draws? To draw so many small details, you need to see all this in front of you or have some kind of reference books or from the way they do it now, well, or have a phenomenal memory and professional knowledge in armor. The question is precisely this.
              1. +4
                21 February 2023 18: 02
                I am not familiar with specific sources that would describe in detail the process of writing book miniatures, but there is no doubt that miniaturists painted what they saw in front of them with their own eyes. You need to draw Jerusalem or Constantinople - be sure, these cities will be like two drops of water similar to the city where the artist lives, at best, another city that he happened to visit.
                Our ancestors lived in full confidence in the immutability of the world, because the changes taking place before their eyes took place too slowly to be noticeable to the eye. They believed that their grandfathers, great-grandfathers and all ancestors, up to Adam, lived in exactly the same world in which they live, only the names of the rulers change, but life itself is unchanged. Everything has happened before and will happen again. In the writings of churchmen this position is especially clearly visible.
                That is why they paid special attention to trifles, because trifles are just that, the changes of which can be noticed. A new type of decoration. A new way to string a crossbow. A new type of helmet or armor. That was the only thing that mattered.
                It is unlikely that they asked someone to pose for them, although it is possible. But they certainly could see in detail the armor, the cannon, or, for example, the details of the costume. At the same time, they themselves lived in that world and perfectly understood what was needed and for what.
                As for not small details, but compositions and plots, then - yes, according to stories, from words. Although it seems to me personally that the illustrators of the same Froissart did not read anything except Froissart himself - so word for word, literally up to a letter, the pictures sometimes coincide with the text. Read - presented - drew.
                1. +2
                  21 February 2023 21: 19
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Read - presented - drew.

                  Very well written, thank you!
            2. +3
              21 February 2023 18: 11
              Everything should be treated critically and with suspicion.
              If we analyze our products of arts and crafts, we saw a lot of inconsistencies. These are from serious products, not drawings and paintings.
              Just yesterday, Pane Kohanku writes:
              “Now look at the panel on our Zvenigorodskaya metro station.
              The protazan of the time of Peter the Great is next to the esponton of Paul the Great. Halberds are also clearly from different eras and regiments. What idiot made this up, tell me?"

              The history of the monument to Kalashnikov in 2017: "military history editor of Rolling Wheels magazine and a former employee of the Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War, Yuri Pasholok, said that the Sturmgewehr 44 diagram is depicted on the Kalashnikov monument."Part of the decor of the pedestal had to be cut out to fix it.
              "In 2014, a monument "Farewell of a Slav" was unveiled at the Belorussky railway station, which depicted a girl escorting a guy in uniform from the First World War to the front. And just a week later, a scandal erupted: the heraldic composition "1941" included in the monument was decorated not only with classic examples of Soviet weapons - the PPSh-41 submachine gun and the DP-27 light machine gun, but also with two German Mauser 98k rifles.
              I do not list the mass of errors in printed publications with American military equipment in our publications, it happens the other way around, there are also not super connoisseurs.
              1. +4
                21 February 2023 18: 34
                How errors occur is completely understandable. Everything comes from the customer.
                For example, a mosaic at a metro station. In those tasks for construction, in the project and estimate for construction, a place and money are provided for the element of DPI (decorative and applied art). Those niche and in it a mosaic 100x100 cm on the theme "Peter and the soldiers". The procurement committee of the general contractor opens a competition, usually involving the committee for culture with the task "Mosaic decoration of station XX". In those tasks, in addition to size, material, installation method, timing and money, etc., there is a description: "Peter the Great is large, smaller soldiers, weapons, beautiful uniforms, spiritualized faces" (I exaggerate, but not much). Then a competition in one form or another - a sketch and an explication are prepared for it according to the description. By the deadline for acceptance of the sketch, the final image is prepared. Accepted on assignment. Peter, soldiers, are dressed in uniforms and who will say that these pieces of iron are not weapons. Great, let's go. We make cardboard in full size and in a type-setting workshop. Everything, there is no place for a historian and expertise. How an artist finds attributes is very simple, books and the Internet. I am sure that if you type "weapons of the Peter the Great era" pictures of what we see on the mosaic will come up.
                Is it always like this? No. Historical museums, forming exhibition spaces and supplementing exhibits with images, know exactly the historical material. They will not get off the artist until all the details exactly correspond to their ideas, but they will pay less attention to color, composition, perspective.
                1. +2
                  21 February 2023 18: 46
                  Historical museums, forming exhibition spaces and supplementing exhibits with images, know exactly the historical material.
                  Unfortunately, Vladimir, this is far from being the case. I have convinced myself many times.
                  1. +1
                    21 February 2023 21: 14
                    It's true. There is a feeling that in most museums the word historical has crept in by mistake, elementary jambs and a complete unwillingness to correct them.
                  2. +2
                    21 February 2023 23: 01
                    I don't have statistics. I remember exactly how the employees of the Central Naval Museum "flattened" one of my artist friends. There was also a story about several regional museums. But the total number of such stories I have is not large.
                    And I remembered the artists. Props from the storerooms of the Academy of Arts. There's all kinds of junk since pre-revolutionary times. St. Petersburg academicians draw "inspiration" from there in historical details. You could, for example, find uniforms and dress up for a fun event like on the cover of "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". Initiation into artists of first-year students with champagne from an ancient Russian helmet, a fly brush
        3. +4
          21 February 2023 13: 50
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Why not assume that each artist had his own drawing technique for each occasion.

          Every artist has their own drawing technique. I agree with this. But if the artist supplies the texts, which are considered a chronicle of those events, with miniatures, which are proof of his loss of reality, then it follows that the Chronicles themselves seem to be not quite chronicles, but something like a fantasy. Hence the question: did the artist see all this himself or did someone sing it to him?

          Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
          History is science

          History is not a science, but a point of view

          So said a famous statesman. I don’t like this figure, but I agree with his statement ...
          1. 0
            21 February 2023 14: 28
            Quote: Luminman
            hence it follows that the "Chronicles" themselves seem to be not quite chronicles, but something like a fantasy.

            Strange approach. How, in your opinion, can the authenticity of a text be affected by drawings attached to it half a century later? The artist could draw both angels and devils to emphasize his personal attitude to what is happening. Some did just that, by the way... It is possible, for example, to illustrate The Tale of Bygone Years in the antique style - how will this affect their content?
            1. +2
              21 February 2023 14: 36
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              How, in your opinion, can the authenticity of a text be affected by drawings attached to it half a century later?

              If it's fiction, then no. You can draw knights in shabby jeans and worn-out sneakers, and even insert bluetooth headphones into their ears. wink But if the text claims to be some kind of description of events, and even those designed for future generations, then the similarity should be ideally close to the era.
              1. +2
                21 February 2023 15: 02
                Do you really think that the author of the text can and should be responsible for the fantasies of subsequent illustrators? That is, any irresponsible cartoonist, or just a person with a sense of humor and the ability to draw, can compromise Plutarch, Froissart or Nestor?
                Something doesn't fit with you. wink
                1. +2
                  21 February 2023 16: 32
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  any irresponsible cartoonist, or just a person with a sense of humor and the ability to draw, can compromise Plutarch, Froissart or Nestor?

                  If an irresponsible cartoonist inserts his equally irresponsible drawings into the works of the authors you mentioned, if all this is published, and even in large print runs, if all this is required reading in schools and universities, then yes, Plutarch and others will be greatly compromised .. .
                  1. +2
                    21 February 2023 18: 04
                    Flies separately, cutlets separately - it doesn’t work? smile
                    1. +2
                      21 February 2023 19: 02
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Flies separately, cutlets separately - it doesn’t work

                      If by flies we understand the text, and by cutlets we mean miniatures and then we divide all this, then there will be no subject for discussion - there will be just a chronological text describing the events of the era ...

                      P.S. The notification bell does not work, it is impossible to follow the messages. I stop the discussion...
          2. +4
            21 February 2023 15: 22
            Any science is the point of view of the people involved in it. This also applies to quantum physics and other mathematicians.
            1. +2
              21 February 2023 16: 28
              Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
              Any science is the point of view of the people involved in it. This also applies to quantum physics and other mathematicians.

              If you add one more unit to one, then for any point of view it will turn out - two!
              1. +3
                21 February 2023 18: 21
                Quote: Luminman
                If you add one more unit to one, then for any point of view it will turn out - two!

                Oh?
                Add a stick of doctor's sausage to the jet fighter. Fighter - one, stick - one. Will you get two?
                You say that you can only add something like this? How similar?
                You have a big green apple. You were given a small red apple. How many apples do you have? Two? Or one green and one red? Did you have twice as many apples after receiving a red apple?
                Solid conventions and assumptions. The natural sciences are even more conventional than the humanities.
                And history is a real science, more scientific than many. smile In any case, it operates with real concepts, and not with spherical horses in a vacuum, roots from minus one, or inextensible weightless threads.
                1. +3
                  21 February 2023 18: 53
                  Mikhail, I like your polemical enthusiasm in describing the exact sciences, but in your words you add up those same planes and sausages.
                  About horses in a vacuum, it's like Zadornov about history.
                  Any task consists of DANO, ODZ (range of acceptable values, scope), which is required. We can easily add apples, but not red and green, but pieces. There will be two. Try to put a question so that it was necessary to add by color. You can add up with force and get half a glass of juice, but this is a whole task with weights, volumes and the percentage of output of the final product.
                  The main thing is that even operations with imaginary numbers lead to real results, correct and predictable. Do not offend imaginary numbers, all wave science, radio engineering rests on them.
                2. +2
                  21 February 2023 18: 55
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Add a stick of doctor's sausage to the jet fighter. Fighter - one, stick - one. Will you get two?

                  A fighter and a stick of sausage are terms in mathematics. And if you put them together, you get two. What is the problem?
                3. +3
                  21 February 2023 20: 24
                  a stick of doctor's sausage

                  Did a cobblestone fly into my garden, for yesterday? laughing Here is a stick of sausage from the Big Elbasy for you? Friendly joke, Michael! drinks
              2. 0
                21 February 2023 22: 06
                A hundred years ago, scientists did not believe in flying into space, but now like this
    2. +1
      21 February 2023 18: 01
      Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
      I wonder how the artist painted miniatures? Like an ordinary artist - with sitters, sketches? Or from memory? It is clear that he was told about the plot of the miniature and something that he could see for himself. But how to remember such small and different details? There are canons in icon painting and no one bothers with trifles there, but in miniatures?

      Very interesting question! Just very. But I don't know the answer.
  8. +3
    21 February 2023 11: 49
    look at this fragment of a miniature from the "Chronicles of Eno"


    Connoisseurs and specialists, of course, are attracted by weapons. But I consider the miniatures for the "Chronicles of Froissart" from the point of view of morals. Pay attention to the brutality of the battle scenes. Abundantly flowing blood and ways to defeat the enemy are just commonplace, this is something that is familiar and does not yet cause rejection of the viewer. On the contrary, the reader of chronicles in that era would be surprised at the absence of such details. The era of the High Renaissance, shamefacedly excluding seas of blood, nevertheless retains some moments of cruelty. Our era, apparently, having mastered the means of presenting events via the Internet, returns us to the barbaric Middle Ages. Significant message.
    1. +1
      21 February 2023 12: 41
      Connoisseurs and specialists, of course, are attracted by weapons.
      Not necessary. For example, I was recently surprised to learn that the lacing of parts of clothing with a "cross", constantly replicated by cinema, did not exist in the Middle Ages. Laced with a "snake".
      1. +5
        21 February 2023 14: 10
        Interesting. Did not know.
        Of medieval clothing, I was most struck by the purpose of the "chaperon" - a headdress that looked like a hood with a long tail "ke". Coins and other small valuable items were kept in this tail.

        I was surprised to learn that until the middle of the 14th century, wearing wallets on a belt was a privilege of the nobility and rich people.
      2. +1
        21 February 2023 16: 16
        Laced with a "snake".

        Anton, have you noticed that comments are under fire today? )))
        1. +2
          21 February 2023 16: 28
          Lyudmila Yakovlevna, half a year ago I spoke about the coming invasion of hamsters.
    2. +3
      21 February 2023 12: 47
      What era - such and mores. Until the 19th century, and somewhere up to the 20th century in enlightened Europe, the execution was a mass entertainment event. Animals were slaughtered for food in almost every yard. Cruelty was an essential part of life.
    3. +5
      21 February 2023 13: 44
      Quote: depressant
      Our era, apparently, having mastered the means of presenting events via the Internet, returns us to the barbaric Middle Ages.

      You can look at this process from a different angle. smile
      Humanity is returning to its pure origins, throwing off the bonds of false, two-faced, artificial morality, starting to look at itself without rose-colored glasses and see its nature as it has been and has remained unchanged over the past five centuries, despite the tricks of deceitful moralists and demagogues. -humanists. After all, in fact, the only desire of these figures, consciously or not, was to fool the human masses, turning it into a submissive, devoid of any aggression tool for manipulating those in power, who did not care about all these moral norms in all ages and the closer to modernity. , the more.
      This is how we really are and always have been - aggressive, cruel, restless, active. And not the way we were taught to be - submissive, merciful, passive ...
      Maybe so? smile
      1. +4
        21 February 2023 16: 42
        Maybe so?

        Not quite.
        To some extent, we are returning to the glorification of the battle, to the ability to fight back, and this is good. The ability to fight reinforces the consciousness of being right. Without this ability, being right is worthless. But redundancy of action? Here I am, for example, from childhood I watched how chickens and other birds were beheaded, the further, the more I was imbued with disgust for the procedure, which was expressed in the reaction of the body to the sight of blood. And now she has already left two Wagner telegrams - from advertising. Like, go to the Kadyrov Canal, see what they are doing with a captured sniper. The advertising image is blurry, but the bloodied naked woman is visible!...
        Yes - a fight, yes - toughness, namely toughness and an undoubted rebuff in relation to the enemy, the ability to stand up for oneself through the shedding of blood, but ... But to turn cruelty into an ordinary, boring accompaniment of life, such as we are shown " valuable foreign specialists", or our own "valuable specialists" from the Caucasus - no, I do not agree.
        And at the root you, Misha, are right. Kindness and inability to give an adequate rebuff degenerates into something else, about which many words can be said.
      2. +3
        21 February 2023 18: 20
        Good evening all!
        Yes, Misha, they lulled us to sleep and said that if someone spat in your face, run to the police or go straight to court! And then they will figure it out and say that it is impossible to do this! And then another "ay-ya-yay!
        They raised a generation that runs from the draft and they want to blame someone else for this.
        Logically, sue NATO in The Hague. And deal with the end.
        -
    4. +1
      21 February 2023 18: 04
      Quote: depressant
      brings us back

      How well you noticed!
  9. +5
    21 February 2023 14: 24
    Quote: Richard
    I tried to find on the Internet by whom, where and when the miniatures for these chronicles were made

    According to available information, the miniatures of the first two books belong to Loise Liede (circa 1420 - 1479) from Bruges. Master Antoine from Burgundy worked on the miniatures of the third and fourth books, possibly together with his students.

    Taken from the site "Paintings and Artists". https://gallerix.ru/

    If we compare the dates of the life of the chronicler and the artists of miniatures, then these miniatures were added after the death of Froissart himself. This means that some questions of this thread are simply removed ... I should have figured it out right away. wink
    1. +5
      21 February 2023 14: 34
      This means that some questions of this thread are simply removed ... I should have figured it out right away wink

      Thanks for the info and the hard work!
      It’s a pity only one plus I have the opportunity to deliver to you
      So I tried to look in the right direction
      1. +5
        21 February 2023 14: 39
        Quote: Richard
        Thanks for the info and the hard work!

        Rather, thank you for the hint in which direction it was necessary to dig ...
  10. +5
    21 February 2023 20: 08
    Good article. Gorgeous illustrations.
    Thing!
    1. +1
      21 February 2023 20: 22
      Dear colleague! And besides admiration, can you say something on the topic? This is not a reproach, this is how Kinchev sang there: "Search for contacts, search for hands" ?. ..
    2. +4
      21 February 2023 20: 25
      Good article. Gorgeous illustrations.

      Come back often! drinks Here like good interlocutors!