How the legend of 28 Panfilov heroes was created in the Soviet press

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How the legend of 28 Panfilov heroes was created in the Soviet press



... Even from a young age, I was convinced that there is no event in the world,
which the newspaper would tell truthfully...

D. Orwell "Remembering the war in Spain"



“There is a wink in your story,” said the fat man,
and I saw him looking at me with disgust...

M. A. Bulgakov "Theatrical novel"

Article in the newspaper "Izvestia"


This story began November 18 1941 years since the appearance in the newspaper "Izvestia" of the article "8th Guards Division in battles", written by a correspondent G. Ivanov. The note was timed to coincide with the renaming of the 316th Rifle Division (hereinafter 316th Rifle Division) into the 8th Guards Division (hereinafter 8th Guards Rifle Division).

In the text, among several combat episodes, a description was given of the battle "on the left flank of commander Kaprov's unit" against "60 tanks and up to one regiment of infantry. In the course of the battlea group of German tanks surrounded a division of Soviet soldiers, opened dagger fire". But the soldiers were not afraid, they hid in the trenches, waited for the enemy to come closer, and then brought down on him "flurry of anti-tank fire”, as a result of which 9 enemy tanks were hit, 3 burned, the rest turned back. Eventually "having beaten off the attack, our rifle company moved forward, and, taking advantage of the enemy's confusion, connected with its unit».

Thus, it followed from the publication that 12 enemy tanks were put out of action by a company of fighters, and the task of the battle was "...make a path forward, reach the connection with the main forces' has been successfully resolved. There was no mention of the company's own losses.

Unfortunately, the article did not indicate on what date and near which settlement this heroic battle took place. And only by the name of the regiment commander, knowledgeable people could guess that we are talking about the 1075th rifle regiment (hereinafter 1075 joint venture) 316th division.

It is worth noting that the article traces some echoes of the information set out in the Report of the head of the political department 316 sd to the head of the political department 16 A "about the heroism of the soldiers of the 1075th Infantry Regiment”, shown on 16.11.1941/50/60. The Report also featured XNUMX-XNUMX German tanks attacking the regiment and "quite a large number of infantry”, 9 wrecked tanks are mentioned, and it is also indicated that the enemy attacked the left flank of the division “in the area of ​​​​the 1075th regiment”.

However, the data contained in the Report allow us to conclude that the battles of the rifle companies of the 1075th regiment that day were not as successful as Ivanov described. And there was a good reason for that:

“1075 joint ventures against such a number of tanks had 2 anti-tank platoons and one anti-tank gun. The effectiveness of the PTR against heavy tanks of the project is not high, because it was not possible to delay the movement of the tanks of the project, and there is also no information about how many tanks of the project of the PTR were put out of action.

That is, no "flurry of anti-tank fire“It couldn’t be, and with the presence of combat personnel in the companies, the situation was, to put it mildly, seams.

Also, the Report does not say anything about the fact that some company of fighters disabled 12 enemy tanks. It only states that "according to unspecified data, at least 1075 tanks were shot down in the area of ​​​​9 joint ventures". Moreover, it is not reported by whom exactly it was hit (shooters or divisional artillerymen). And the data is unspecified, i.e., information about the number of destroyed tanks is in the status of rumors. And it was not possible to double-check them - the regiment retreated, therefore, it is possible to find out the truth only from the documents of the enemy.

Thus, the information reported by the newspaperman that the tank attack was repulsed, as well as other details of the battle he told of some company of the 1075th joint venture (and that it eventually connected with its unit) are not confirmed in the text of the Report.

Article in the newspaper "Komsomolskaya Pravda"


25 November 1941, a large article is published in the Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper V. Chernysheva “Glory to the fearless patriots. A feat for which the guardsmen forever glorified themselves, ”which describes in detail a battle similar to the one that Ivanov had previously described.

Only now the heroes were no longer a company, but "a group of Red Army soldiers led by political commissar Diev", who gave his fighters the command"No step back. Stand to death!". And the commander of Kaprov was no longer mentioned in it. At first, the guards fought a heavy four-hour battle against 54 light and medium tanks, destroyed 18 "armored monstersand killed hundreds of fascists.

Then the Germans launched heavy tanks into the attack. By that time "the bombers came out with grenades and bottles of combustible mixture", and finally "in an unequal battle, Soviet patriots died the death of the brave". Well, the tanks, apparently, still overcame the defensive line (although this is not directly said).

Unfortunately, this article did not indicate on what date and near which settlement the heroic battle took place. And it is not even said which regiment and division the heroes belonged to. Therefore, arguing objectively, one cannot conclude that Chernyshev described the same battle as Ivanov. And the finale of the battle in the articles of military correspondents was completely different: Ivanov’s company (apparently without great losses) left its positions and escaped from the encirclement, while Chernyshev’s all the heroes died the death of the brave, “but did not take a single step back.”

Article in the newspaper "Red Star"


The next day 26 November Correspondent's article published in the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper V. Koroteeva “Panfilov’s guardsmen in the battles for Moscow”, where it is said that several dozen guardsmen of the 5th company of the N regiment, instructed by the words of political instructor Diev: “we are ordered not to retreat”, took the battle with 54 enemy tanks. As a result, 7 tanks were hit by them and 9 burned. The battle lasted more than four hours, daredevils "everyone died, but the enemy was not missed". But then the regiment approached and, despite the fact that "the Germans brought in an infantry regiment", the guards did not flinch, and"stubbornly fought back, defending the positions of Diev».

Eventually "as a result of the battle, the enemy lost 800 soldiers and officers killed and 18 tanks". From the final sentence of the article "- No step back! - the guardsmen repeat the words of the combat order and unbendingly, firmly stand and hold the lines of defense”, the impression was created that the guardsmen defeated the enemy in this battle - they held their defensive line.

From the content of the publication, it can be assumed that Koroteev spoke about the same battle as V. Chernyshev - the same 54 German tanks appear in the article, of which 18 were hit by the guards, and most importantly, the daredevils were led by the same political instructor Diev.

But Koroteev added an important additional detail - what happened after the "handful of daredevils" died in an unequal battle: some regiment approached, that is, the fighters still managed to hold out until the main forces approached, and the enemy was stopped.

Next article in the newspaper "Red Star"


Then the head of the literature and art department of the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper enters the literary stage. Zinovy ​​Yurievich Krivitsky and quickly becomes the main chronicler of the heroic battle of 28 Panfilov.


November 28 1941 years on the front page of the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper is an article written by him “Testament of 28 Fallen Heroes” (under which Krivitsky did not put his last name for some reason). It detailed how 29 men from the Panfilov division engaged 50 enemy tanks, and provided specific details not found in previously published articles.

It turns out that the Germans, before entering the battle, shouted “Surrender!” to the guards, and then one of our fighters lost heart, raised his hands up to surrender, but was immediately shot by his comrades.

The remaining 28 people, under the command of political instructor Diev, who admonished them with a brief phrase “Not a step back!”, fought a hard battle for more than four hours and knocked out 18 enemy tanks, which “frozen motionless on the battlefield". Eventually "...they laid down their heads - all twenty-eight. They died, but did not miss the enemy! Our regiment arrived in time, and the enemy tank group was stopped».

It should be noted that in this article the place where the battle took place and the date of this event were not precisely indicated. But on the other hand, the outcome of the battle finally became clear - the enemy tank group on the line defended by the fallen heroes was nevertheless stopped.

However, after reading the article, bewilderment arose: if all the heroes died, then how did the correspondent know the details of the battle? Not from the Nazis?

The second article of Krivitsky


January 22 1942 years in the same newspaper, the following article by Krivitsky “On 28 Fallen Heroes” was published, which provided many details that were not included in the first publication.

In particular, it was reported that the heroes ("Sergeant Dobrobabin's unit"") were in the regiment under the command of Kaprov, the battle took place on November 16 at the Dubosekovo junction, and "before twenty-eight heroes, lurking in the trench at the very junction, repelled a powerful tank attack, they withstood many hours of battle with enemy machine gunners', which in battle '... walked, as if for a walk, to their full height ...", and were stopped by well-aimed fire of the guards. Then they approached the line to help the machine gunners "twenty armored monsters».

And only at this tense moment, a political instructor suddenly appeared from somewhere, whose last name turned out to be not Diev at all, but Klochkov. And he uttered in the final of the battle not at all the words that he spoke in the first essay, but the phrase that later became known throughout the country: “Russia is great, but there is nowhere to retreat. Behind Moscow».

The article also explained the mystery of how the correspondent learned the details of the battle. Turns out, "... this was told by Natarov, who was already on his deathbed. He was recently found in the hospital. He crawled that night to the forest, wandered, exhausted from loss of blood, for several days, until he came across a group of our scouts ...And most importantly, the article listed the names, surnames and patronymics of 28 dead heroes (the patronymics of several were not given).

In the essay, as in an earlier publication by Krivitsky, the positions of the brave men were attacked by 50 enemy tanks, but now they were brought into battle "two echelons"- first 20 vehicles, and after some time another 30 after them. The exact number of tanks destroyed was no longer given, it was only mentioned that at first 14 tanks advancing in the "first echelon" were hit and burned, and then "knocked out and burning about a dozen tanks”, advancing in the second echelon.

But this time the outcome of the battle, which lasted about 5 hours, was different: the German tanks still managed to break through the line of defense of the guards...

At the end of the article, it was described how, after the liberation of Dubosekovo, the author, together with the military commissar of the division, regimental commissar Egorov, Colonel Kaprov, the head of the political department of the division Galushko, captain Gundilovich and soldiers of the 8th Guards. the SD went to the battlefield, found a corpse in the snow without documents, and solemnly buried it with a triple salute from a rifle weapons. The discovery of other corpses of fallen heroes was not reported in the article.

In passing, it is worth mentioning the published March 22 1942 in the newspaper "Red Star" article N. Tikhonov "The Word of 28 Guards", which is a poetic poem describing the same battle at the Dubosekovo junction. And although the author, out of modesty, writes that the weakness of his verse does not convey what happened, in reality the verse conveys to the reader many curious details.

For example, the author reproduces poetic conversations between fighters before and during the battle, reports that the battle continued until dark, and even for some reason compares the Bolshevik guards with the guards of Napoleon and the Duke of Wellington. The reader also learns that, according to poetic information, Ivan Natarov, who is still listed as buried in a mass grave in the village. Nelidovo, in fact, remained alive and in the infirmary managed to report the details of the battle before his death.

In conclusion, I would like to note that, despite some discrepancies in individual information, five of the six above-mentioned articles share a common message: the authors assure the reader that the guardsmen defending the capital are fighting bravely, do not surrender and do not retreat a single step without an order, and also they mention a common hero - political instructor Diev, therefore, they describe the same battle.

Thus, thanks to numerous publications in Soviet newspapers, a detailed description of the battle of 28 Panfilov’s soldiers soon acquired the status of a historical event and even entered the essays on the combat path of the 1942th Guards compiled after 8. sd and its units (for example, see "Essay on the combat path of the 2nd division 857 ap").

Moreover, a brief description of the battle of 28 Panfilov’s men was even included in the three-volume study “The Defeat of German Troops near Moscow” compiled by the General Staff of the KA (1943). Moreover, the number of German tanks destroyed by the heroes in his text has already reached 26 (see B. M. Shaposhnikov “The Battle for Moscow. The Moscow operation of the Western Front on November 16, 1941 - January 31, 1942”, AST Moscow, Tranzitkniga, S. 59).

Now it is already difficult to determine the reasons for this phenomenon: either this was the merit of Krivitsky's bright literary talent, or it is necessary to pay tribute to the zeal of the political affairs workers, who conscientiously carry out the instructions of the authorities to bring the newspaper description to all fighters and commanders - a dark matter ...

Selected publications by Krivitsky


The next stage of Krivitsky's individual creativity was written and published by several publishing houses in 1942-1945. 12-page brochure "About 28 Fallen Heroes" (14x10 cm; circulation of 120 copies).


Well, the apogee of his individual writing work, dedicated to the Panfilovites, was the brochure “1943 Panfilov Heroes” composed and published in 28 - 40 pages, circulation of 100 copies.


After the end of the war, the battle of 28 Panfilov soldiers described by Krivitsky at the Dubosekovo junction was mentioned in numerous literary publications, and was also included in the memoirs of various Soviet military leaders. And as a result of repeated repetitions, he finally acquired the status of an undoubted historical event, and at the same time immortalized Krivitsky, who became the main chronicler of this heroic battle.

In the 60s, the writer did not deny himself the pleasure of once again publishing his first article “The Testament of 28 Fallen Heroes” in the book “I Will Never Forget” (1964), where he even decided to tell readers what information served as the basis for writing the article:

“Shortly after moving into the Pravda building, the editor handed me four lines of a political report, which, among many others, came from the political department of one of the divisions defending Moscow. It said that a group of fighters led by political instructor Diev repulsed the attack of 50 tanks. Neither the names of the fighters, nor the exact line at which the battle broke out - nothing is known. Only the surname of the political instructor, the mention of Dubosekovo's departure, and the very fact, exciting, like an alarming, strong song ... "

It turned out to be a piquant situation: if Krivitsky was not cunning, then in fact he admitted that he simply invented numerous details of the battle described in his first editorial. And it seems that he also lied about the political report, because the document containing the “four lines” indicated by him, or at least Diev’s surname, has not been found to this day.

Unexpected turn of events


After the collapse of the USSR, when the “gates of glasnost” opened wide, publications began to appear in the press, where it was reported that some Panfilov heroes who were listed as buried in a mass grave actually remained alive.

In total, there were 6 people, and one of them, Dobrobabin, who appears in Krivitsky's publications as a brave and cheerful sergeant, was captured on November 16.11.1941, XNUMX, then was released by the Nazis (they usually freed Ukrainian prisoners of war from camps), returned to his place of birth to the Ukrainian village of Perekop and got a job with the police there. And when, after the war, this fact was revealed by military counterintelligence, the Panfilov hero was deprived of all awards and convicted of treason.

Using these facts, the authors of some publications of the 90s stated that there was no battle of 28 heroes at the Dubosekovo junction, they say, all this is an invention of communist propaganda. For 28 people, armed only with anti-tank missiles and bottles of combustible mixture, are physically unable to withstand 50 tanks in battle, and even at the same time destroy 18 tanks and pile on 800 Fritz.

What caused counter-publications in response, where the authors defended the historicity of the battle at Dubosekovo, mainly using numerous memoirs of veterans of the 8th Guards as an argument. sd, which, although they did not participate in this battle, but (according to them) on 16.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX fought the Germans near the junction, therefore they saw this battle and even personally knew political instructor Klochkov.

As a result, people interested in the history of the Great Patriotic War and, in particular, the battle for Moscow, were divided into two warring camps: those who believed that there really was a battle near the Dubosekovo junction on November 16.11.1941, 18, during which the enemy lost XNUMX tanks, and those those who believed that this tank battle did not take place - the event is not historical, but fictional.

Thanks to the Internet, disputes around the Dubosekovo battle have repeatedly flared up at various historical forums and virtual conferences. Yes, and individual figures of Russian culture often expressed their opinion on the issue of the historicity of this event.

Help-report of the prosecutor's office


A new round of controversy around the battle near Dubosekovo began to spin after the publication in the Novy Mir magazine (No. 6, 1997) of the article “New about Soviet heroes” (N. Petrov, O. Edelman). In it, the authors expressed the opinion that the history of the Great Patriotic War is surrounded and entangled in myths, and as one such myth they cited the battle of 28 Panfilov soldiers at the Dubosekovo junction.

But most importantly, substantiating their assertion, the authors named an archival document - the Reference-report "On 28 Panfilovites" (1948) compiled in the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office. Moreover, they even published it in their article in full.

It seemed that the final conclusion of this historical document:

“thus, the materials of the investigation established that the feat of 28 Panfilov guardsmen, covered in the press, is fiction correspondent Koroteev, editor of Krasnaya Zvezda Ortenberg, and especially the literary secretary of the newspaper Krivitsky ... "

was supposed to put a fat final point in the dispute about the historicity of the battle.

But, alas, he didn’t put it - disputes among historians and history buffs about the historicity of the battle of 28 Panfilov’s soldiers near Dubosekovo only flared up with renewed vigor.

Supporters of the “fight was” version immediately called the text of the Reference-report a historical falsification, and the authors were accused of forgery.

But the publication of the original document on the GARF website made the assertion of falsification untenable, but, alas, did not lead to the termination of disputes either.

Defenders of the historicity of the battle immediately seized on the fragment of the testimony of KSP 1075 by I. V. Kaprov contained in the Help:

“... There was no battle between 28 Panfilov’s men and German tanks at the Dubosekovo junction on November 15, 1941 - this is a complete fiction. On this day, at the Dubosekovo junction, as part of the 2nd battalion, the 4th company fought with German tanks and really fought heroically. More than 100 people died from the company, and not 28, as they wrote about it in the newspapers ... "

And they said that this fragment convincingly proves that on November 16.11.1941, XNUMX, a tank battle at the Dubosekovo junction definitely was. And how many Panfilovites participated in it, 28 or 128, is of no fundamental importance. Just as it doesn’t matter how many tanks they destroyed in this battle, the number of destroyed tanks does not affect the historical authenticity of the event. And if someone doubts the historicity of this battle, then he is a scoundrel who hates his country and tries to distort its heroic history.

Well, the Stalinist prosecutor's office, as is well known, was only engaged in intimidating citizens and forcing them to slander themselves. That is why Krivitsky and other writers, under pressure from investigators, were forced to give false testimony that, they say, they invented the heroic battle at the Dubosekovo junction. Therefore, this Reference-report is worthless on a market day - it does not prove anything.

Naturally, supporters of the version “this tank battle did not take place” (among them the famous historian A.V. Isaev) in response urged their opponents to cool their heads and stop fantasizing, stubbornly defending the myth invented by the newspapermen, because the prosecutor’s check accurately established that the tank battle had There was no Dubosekovo.

But the most curious thing in this dispute of long-standing opponents, now about the correct interpretation of the meaning of the Help, is that both of them completely misinterpret its conclusions.

The prosecutor's office was not at all tasked with establishing whether there was actually a tank battle near the Dubosekovo junction on November 16.11.1941, XNUMX, or whether there was no battle in this defensive area.

The reasons for the inspection were the arrest of the Panfilov hero I. E. Dobrobabin, suspected of treason; and his subsequent confession that he really was in the Dubosekovo region (there he surrendered to the Germans), but did not perform any feats and everything that is written about him in the book about the Panfilov heroes does not correspond to reality. Further, during the investigation of the criminal case, it was established that, in addition to Dobrobabin, 4 more people remained alive, listed as 28 Panfilov soldiers who died in battle with German tanks.

In connection with this, it became necessary to check the very circumstances of the battle of 28 guardsmen from the Panfilov division, which took place on 16.11.1941/16/28 at the Dubosekovo junction, covered in the press. That is, the inspectors were tasked with establishing where the information about this fight originally came from and whether there was a fight at all on November XNUMX with the participation of these XNUMX people.

And during the check, it was found that the heroic battle described in detail in the Soviet press, when 28 shooters of the 8th Guards. sd, armed only with anti-tank missiles, grenades and bottles of combustible mixture, stopped about 50 tanks and about 1 fascists at their turn, has no documentary basis and is the fruit of the creative imagination of newspapermen.

And the employees of the prosecutor's office did not go further than the task set - at that time they already had enough to do. Therefore, during the check, they did not try to find and study archival documents that would allow them to restore the chronology of combat events in the defensive section of the 1075th joint venture for November 16, 1941.

But nevertheless, the prosecutor's office interviewed local residents and (according to their words) established that on November 16.11.1941, 6, there were battles in the vicinity of the village of Nelidovo and again. Dubosekovo really were. And the residents did not know the details of the battles, because at that time they were hiding in shelters. But on the other hand, they reported that in the mass grave of the Panfilov heroes, which is located on the outskirts of the village of Nelidovo, only 28 spacecraft fighters were buried, and not XNUMX. Which was another of the established facts taken into account when formulating the final conclusion of the check.

Therefore, arguing objectively, we can conclude that on the basis of the Prosecutor’s Office’s Certificate, it is impossible to conclude that in reality on November 16.11.1941, XNUMX there was a tank battle directly at the Dubosekovo junction or, conversely, there was no such battle.

Prosecutors only established that correspondents Chernyshev and Koroteev, instead of going to the headquarters of rifle regiments or their battalions and getting information about real heroes and details of their feats, in order to later perpetuate their names and deeds on the pages of newspapers, arrived at headquarters 16 th army. And allegedly there they learned from a political report about a heroic battle that took place on an unknown day and in what place, where some 5th company fought with an unknown number. Then they supplemented what they read with their fantasies and eventually created a myth that several dozen soldiers of the rifle regiment, armed only with anti-tank rifles, grenades and bottles of combustible mixture, managed to stop about 50 German tanks at their turn (advancing with an infantry regiment), and in addition to knock out (burn) 18 of them.

Then Krivitsky, who took the baton, creatively developed this myth by writing his first article, without even leaving the editorial office, allegedly from the words of his boss Ortenberg.

And in his next article, he already gave full rein to his imagination, inventing that there were 28 heroes, and even printed a list with the names of those who allegedly committed this invented feat of randomly selected 28 fighters of the 1075th sp. And at the end of the article, he blatantly lied that the details of the battle he fantasized about became known from the surviving Natarov.

On the one hand, it seems that the appearance of these articles in the newspapers was only useful: they instilled in the hearts of readers the confidence that the fighters of the spacecraft units defending the capital are standing to the death, without an order they will not retreat from their positions and the enemy will not be allowed into the capital. And also publications raised the morale of the fighters and commanders of the spacecraft, being an example to follow.

But, on the other hand, there was also significant harm.

The information contained in the articles that only 28 fighters without artillery support were able to defend their line in battle against 50 tanks and an enemy infantry regiment could instill false confidence in the commanders of rifle regiments and battalions who had no combat experience that this was really possible, and as a result lead to wrong tactical decisions. And the fighters who found themselves in a similar situation and (it is clear why) quickly knocked out by the enemy from their positions (retreated without an order), on the basis of such publications, could be accused of cowardice and sent to a penal company.

Accordingly, among the fighters, who had already taken a sip of dashing in battles with real German tanks, such publications aroused surprise and a reasonable question, how could such stories get on the front page of the main newspaper of the KA, giving rise to distrust of Soviet newspapers.

In addition, such fictions were ideological time bombs - decades later, the truth could break out and eventually cause people from the younger generation to doubt the reality of other heroic deeds covered in the Soviet press and included in school history textbooks.

And in a good way, Krivitsky should have been severely punished for his lies. But in this case, his boss Ortenberg, who at the time of the publication of those articles was a major general and executive editor of the main newspaper of the Red Army, would also have to be punished. And this would eventually entail the necessity of recognizing the fact that during the war the Red Star misled its readers.

Moreover, the publication, even in a narrow circle of the party apparatus, of the fact that 28 people received the highest degree of distinction in the USSR without any verification only on the basis of dubious newspaper publications, was an ideological state of emergency and could lead to unpleasant consequences for propaganda officials with a rank higher than Ortenberg.

And also to hurt the Minister of the Armed Forces of the USSR N. A. Bulganin and Marshal of the USSR G. K. Zhukov, who approved award lists for 1942 people in 28 without conducting a thorough check of the circumstances of the feat described in them.

Apparently, that is why the results of the investigation of the Main Military Prosecutor's Office were not widely publicized, the material was sent to the archive, the writers escaped with only a slight fright, and the myth born by them continued its work for the benefit of Soviet propaganda and to the delight of Krivitsky.

On the testimony of I. V. Kaprov and the final conclusion


Separately, I consider it necessary to evaluate the testimony of KSP 1075 of I. V. Kaprov set out in the Certificate, in particular, his words:

“... On this day, at the Dubosekovo junction, as part of the 2nd battalion, the 4th company fought with German tanks and really fought heroically. More than 100 people died from the company ... "

Personally, I have a big doubt that the regiment commander, whose regiment in the fall of 1941 was actually completely defeated 2 times within a month, his battalions repeatedly left their positions without an order, and he himself was even removed from his post for their unauthorized departure, 6 years after the events, he was able to remember exactly what exactly happened on November 16, 1941.

Usually, in the memory of a person who participated in heavy protracted battles, when thousands of people die before his eyes and absolute hell is created around him, only some terrible fragments that are not specified in time and not tied to geographical landmarks remain, which he tries his best to forget as soon as possible. . Therefore, a replacement often occurs in his memory: a person forgets what was in reality, but instead “remembers” what was not, having heard some stories from colleagues or read something in publications. After that, it is affirmed in the opinion that he also remembers exactly that the events happened exactly as he heard or read.

Therefore, the fact that the above-mentioned memoirs of I. V. Kaprov are recorded in the Prosecutor’s Office’s Certificate does not at all give them historical authenticity, as some supporters of the “fight was” version sometimes claim (while forgetting that they themselves previously denied the evidence value of the Certificate and called into question the truthfulness of the testimonies of the citizens interviewed during the inspection).

Thus, the question of how the combat situation actually developed on November 16, 1941 in the defensive sector of the 1075th joint venture is still waiting for its meticulous researcher. And the archival materials published to date are already enough to conduct a thorough objective analysis and build a historical version that restores actual events with quite acceptable accuracy.

But there are serious doubts that such an impartial historical article will ever appear. For some reason, people have an acute dislike for historians, who destroy by their research the myths that have developed in society, elevated to the status of historical dogmas. And they are especially sensitive to attempts to cast doubt on the reliability of some of the exploits of the spacecraft soldiers widely reported in the Soviet press.

Moreover, people do not even like those researchers who are rather cautiously trying to hint to them that, perhaps, some ideas that have developed in their minds about individual battles of the Great Patriotic War are false, and such obviously improbable events, most likely, did not exist in reality.

Because of this, not many historians are eager to publish studies that destroy the myths that exist in society about the battles of the Great Patriotic War period.

So there is good reason to believe that the debate about the heroic Panfilov tank battle at the Dubosekovo junction will continue for several more decades ...
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  1. +19
    8 February 2023 05: 55
    So there is good reason to believe that the debate about the heroic Panfilov tank battle at the Dubosekovo junction will continue for several more decades ...
    Disputes are not only about the battle at the Dubosekovo junction, about the Battle of Kulikovo, etc ...
    1. +4
      13 February 2023 15: 26
      Quote: parusnik
      Disputes are not only about the battle at the Dubosekovo junction, about the Battle of Kulikovo, etc ...

      But I'm wondering - why does the author need all this? What did he want to show with this article? Show the whole world what an awesome truth-seeker he is? Will this "truth" change anything in the real results of the Second World War? Does this "truth" disavow the feat of the fighters and commanders of the Red Army?
      For us, the fact remains that: 1. Did the Germans want to take Moscow? - We wanted to!
      2. Who prevented them from doing this? - Fighters and commanders of the Red Army!
      3. Were they well armed at this point? - No! Badly!
      And, despite this, they did not let the enemy into Moscow.
      Whereby? - Thanks to MASS heroism!
      And I don't care what company, what battalion and what regiment fought there. And how many tanks they burned. The result is important to me - the enemy did not pass! Thanks to their heroism and self-sacrifice. Kudos to them for this.
      1. +1
        17 February 2023 15: 53
        But isn’t this Cossack author zaslatny!? He walks sniffing everything out, it’s not right for him, it’s wrong! And the final fact of his article is about what, that our grandfathers could not win the Victory over the Nazis? Let him dump him in Europe and dig there in Germany in the archives. The Germans carefully documented everything. And our grandfathers are victorious warriors, we know this well and there is nothing to dig under them! The enemy was not missed and this is a fact!
        1. 0
          April 4 2023 23: 54
          And the photo of this Zinovy ​​​​Krivitsky why the hell did you have to photoshop it on the front page of the newspaper?
          Here is the original of the first page of the Red Star for November 28, 1941.
          [media=https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6437/335680636.1f/0_1ea081_441d3ae7_orig.jpg]
  2. +18
    8 February 2023 05: 56
    Even if all this is true three times, why write about it?
    Is it not enough for you to see all sorts of Nazarovs, Morgensterns, Galkins and others like them?
    1. +17
      8 February 2023 06: 16
      The author probably thinks that if they knew the truth, all sorts of things would not have appeared .. Although, in that distant childhood, I re-read the story in Native Speech for 2nd grade, about the feat of 28 Panfilov heroes, repeatedly.
      1. +17
        8 February 2023 07: 25
        Quote: parusnik
        Author

        The author has already written about the feat of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, now he has reached the Panfilovites. Question. Why? No demand, no supply? Although this method is also controversial.
        Chief in * history *!
        Do you read published materials?
        1. +24
          8 February 2023 12: 31
          Panfilov’s. Question. Why? All these * disclosures * were published a long time ago in * lights * and other similar publications


          There are legends that deserve to be true. Ungrateful descendants will be engaged in exposing each of them. Grateful - will take as the basis of their own spiritual achievements.
          Even if there was no feat of the Panfilovites in the form in which it was presented by the press of that time. But the legend about the Panfilovites is a reflection of the cumulative feat of many Soviet soldiers. We don't need legends? Do we need precise knowledge? At some point, for weak souls, accurate knowledge becomes an unbearable burden that kills life.
          People need uplifting legends. The entire social evolution of mankind is built on them.
          1. +11
            8 February 2023 12: 49
            There are legends that deserve to be true. Ungrateful descendants will be engaged in exposing each of them. Grateful - will take as the basis of their own spiritual achievements.
            In my opinion, the best comment on this topic! love love love love love Everything I can! hi
          2. +9
            8 February 2023 13: 12
            There are legends that deserve to be true. Ungrateful descendants will be engaged in exposing each of them. Grateful - will take as the basis of their own spiritual achievements.

            Umnichka, Lyudmila Yakovlevna
          3. +6
            8 February 2023 13: 52
            My plus, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, and applause. It's a pity there is no corresponding smiley, I would put it. smile
            I have always said that you need to be able to love the Motherland the way it is. And only now, after reading your comment, I suddenly realized that not everything is so simple with this case ...
          4. +9
            8 February 2023 15: 39
            Quote: depressant
            People need uplifting legends. The entire social evolution of mankind is built on them.

            So no one argues with this. But do not mix legends and history - it turns into too much pain in the end.
            The problem with legends is that there is no monopoly on history. And the Iron Curtain too. And if we don't separate legend and history, they will do it for us. Along the way, mocking real history and slandering and slandering real historical facts.
            1. +6
              8 February 2023 19: 23
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And if we don't separate legend and history, they will do it for us. Along the way, mocking real history and slandering and slandering real historical facts.

              From any hero and feat, with the talent of those who want to humiliate heroism, you can make an anti-hero. Having slandered heroism, humiliating the causes and essence of what has been done. A person who does such things does not love his people, his country.
          5. +1
            10 February 2023 06: 57
            Quote: depressant
            We don't need legends? Do we need precise knowledge?

            We need both. My grandfather was awarded the Medal "For Courage" for those battles (a tanker of the 1st Guards). And the Panfilovites treated me to sweets in childhood. Although I did not understand who they were - "grandfather fought with them ", everything that was told to me. They met in Alma-Ata, sometimes I read the "Legend" in books and textbooks, but the truth about these people (and, as I understand it, lately, much cooler than the legend) find out everything still calved.
        2. +2
          9 February 2023 19: 08
          Quote: ArchiPhil
          Quote: parusnik
          Author

          The author has already written about the feat of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, now he has reached the Panfilovites. Question. Why? No demand, no supply? Although this method is also controversial.
          Chief in * history *!
          Do you read published materials?

          Another scolding of our fighters who defended their homeland to death!
          1. 0
            17 February 2023 16: 00
            This is only the beginning, then it will reach another. He’ll say I can’t enter the water in winter, which means that during the war, warriors waist-deep in water could not restore bridges and river crossings, and all this is legend. It is necessary to drive such researchers in the neck, they smell bad.
      2. +3
        8 February 2023 11: 42
        Quote: parusnik
        The author probably thinks that if they knew the truth, all sorts of things would not have appeared .. Although, in that distant childhood, I re-read the story in Native Speech for 2nd grade, about the feat of 28 Panfilov heroes, repeatedly.


        The face of this Krivitsky Khitrovansky is somewhat similar to Andropov. probably his cousin
    2. +3
      8 February 2023 06: 18
      In general, you don’t need to write about anything, you need to shout three cheers, three times a day, before eating.
      1. +3
        8 February 2023 07: 40
        Quote: Cartalon
        In general, you don’t need to write about anything, you need to shout three cheers, three times a day, before eating.

        Yes, dear, that’s not the point. It’s just that articles like this are nothing more than the drapery of the mausoleum in front of the Victory Parade. It exists, but for this * power * it’s somehow not there. These *vevepash nestlings*?
        1. +5
          8 February 2023 07: 49
          Just articles like this one are nothing more than the drapery of the mausoleum before the Victory Parade
          good good
        2. +8
          8 February 2023 15: 35
          Quote: ArchiPhil
          Just articles like this one are nothing more than the drapery of the mausoleum before the Victory Parade

          Well, yes, well, yes ... at first we stuff history with myths and legends of the grandfather of GlavPUR, and then we are surprised at the popularity of Rezun's false theories.
          By preserving in official history the events refuted by documents, we are handing weapons into the hands of the revisionists with our own hands.

          By the way, the work of Zamulin can be considered an example of how one can carefully correct official history in the direction of historicity. Who managed, without belittling or belittling the feat, to get away from the greatest oncoming tank battle to the counterattack of the tank army, which ended in a tactical defeat (the army actually lost its combat capability without completing its tasks), but in an operational victory (the scale of the German offensive from breaking through the army defenses shrank to encirclement rifle corps).
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +6
      8 February 2023 14: 36
      Quote: Ravik
      Even if all this is true three times, why write about it?

      Because if we do not carefully rid history of myths ourselves, then the good revisionist uncles will do it for us. Which, having broken the bricks of myths and legends in the foundation of the building of official history (and propaganda), will bring down the building itself.

      Or was Rezun-Suvorov and other Boryusikov not enough for you? But the first wave of revisionism became possible precisely as a result of the actions of the Epishevsky GlavPUR, which stuffed untested propaganda into official history. As a result, the revisionists did not even have to try hard: they simply first dismantled the obvious myth - on the basis of open documents, and then, from the particular to the general, questioned the real facts. For if the clock has struck thirteen times, one should doubt the correctness of the previous twelve strikes.
      Moreover, official myths often overshadowed real feats. Who now remembers the Ilyinsky frontiers? About 9 German tanks knocked out in 4 minutes and five more in the next 40?

      But no, what do the miserable 14 tanks mean against the background of the articles by Krivitsky and Ortenberg?
      1. +5
        8 February 2023 15: 03
        Because if we do not carefully rid history of myths ourselves, then the good revisionist uncles will do it for us. Which, having broken the bricks of myths and legends in the foundation of the building of official history (and propaganda), will bring down the building itself. Or was Rezun-Suvorov and other Boryusikov not enough for you?

        Alexei, why did Rezun bother to debunk the legends (I don’t want to use the word “myth”, for me a myth means something that didn’t exist, but a legend, something that happened, but in a different, not embellished form)? He spawned his own, just already myths. Therefore, revisionist uncles do not bother - the problem of truth is that it has to be proved, while a lie does not need proof.
        1. +6
          8 February 2023 16: 22
          Quote: Nefarious skeptic
          Alexei, why did Rezun bother to debunk the legends (I don’t want to use the word “myth”, for me a myth means something that didn’t exist, but a legend, something that happened, but in a different, not embellished form)?

          Debunked-debunked. There, one analysis of the total number of tanks and aircraft in the pre-war USSR was worth something.

          In general, the official Soviet history was simply asking for a session of exposure - because it managed to collect mutually contradictory statements. Somehow there was a mighty Red Army in it, armed with almost completely obsolete weapons and a small number of new equipment, which was supplied by the most powerful industry of the USSR. smile
          1. +1
            8 February 2023 16: 41
            Somehow there was a mighty Red Army in it, armed with almost completely obsolete weapons and a small number of new equipment, which was supplied by the most powerful industry of the USSR.

            As if I read about the Imperial Army of the Great Japanese Empire fellow
    5. +3
      8 February 2023 17: 43
      Lies are a bad foundation for any business.
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. -5
      8 February 2023 06: 52
      those. do you think the historian A. Isaev is lying, claiming that there was no serious clash at Dubosekovo, just as there were no 28 Panfilovites?
  4. +5
    8 February 2023 06: 50
    “There is a wink in your story,” said the fat man,
    and I saw him looking at me with disgust...

    A wonderful epigraph to the article was given by the author. The whole point of the article lies in this quote ...
    Why this article? To denigrate the feat of the Panfilovites? Descendants will remember their feat forever, and which of the readers will remember the author of the article in a few years?
    1. +2
      8 February 2023 12: 22
      Damn, the country is at war .. And here is such an article .. It looks like some kind of meanness. By the way, the front page of the newspaper looked different.
      1. +2
        8 February 2023 13: 15
        Damn, the country is at war .. And here is such an article.

        Yeah. Zelensky's press will gladly reprint it
      2. +6
        8 February 2023 16: 02
        By the way, the front page of the newspaper looked different.


    2. +4
      8 February 2023 17: 44
      In a few years, there will be a document drawn up by the prosecutor's office.
  5. +7
    8 February 2023 07: 21
    Most likely the battle really took place, but no one will know the details of how it went. Although the story of how 1 platoon stopped 50 tanks for several hours and an infantry regiment really looks like an exaggeration, so there were either more defenders or fewer attackers.
    1. +12
      8 February 2023 07: 50
      How many Germans there were, how many of ours, what the losses were in that particular battle, all this is absolutely not important. The mass feat of the defenders of Moscow is undeniable.
      1. +4
        8 February 2023 08: 11
        Quote from: Derbes19
        The mass feat of the defenders of Moscow is undeniable.

        Yes, I do not argue. But this is a specific case.
    2. +12
      8 February 2023 08: 55
      And also the tank that stopped the tank regiment, Stakhanov exceeded the norms - it is better to believe in such feats and in such heroes than in the captains of the Americas and other speedermen.
      1. +3
        8 February 2023 11: 54
        Your interlocutor speaks of logic, and you are talking about faith .. these concepts almost never coincide, while you are both right .. and Captain America, what does it have to do with it? 28 Panfilov's heroes of the USSR, who existed separately from Captain A., while Captain A. is a "fantastic hero" and the United States, but is there an answer to the question - where are the heroes of the Russian Federation and what are they?
        1. +3
          8 February 2023 12: 49
          The logic is that shouting "these heroes are not real - they were invented" can give rise to disbelief in the entire history of the country, and people always believe in something, and, in the absence of their own heroes, will believe in strangers. Ask the youth who they are more familiar with and who they take an example from - children in the outfit of a speederman are regularly found at mass events - and find a child in the same place in the form of a WWII fighter.
          1. +4
            8 February 2023 16: 14
            I won’t argue with you, of course, since the history of the USSR, for example, is exactly the same - the history of both Ukraine and Georgia, but look - what happened to them - they forgot the whole story, changing it to cookies .. but here's how to save, in fact - communist ideals of a common country in the capitalist world? this is a question, I'm not sure that it's being solved, unless of course something changes dramatically ... tk. "spidermans" will remain and act .. of course, the very first and simplest is to cut off the Internet, which I personally don’t really like ... in fact, we need the heroes of our time, understandable to modern youth .. whatever one may say, the heroes of the Second World War are the heroes of the past centuries and they are from another life and country .. like heroes .. yes they are known .. they are heroes .. you can learn something from them .. but .. they are from the past - in the modern world their behavior and the world - are not modeled and are not superimposed to reality..
        2. +2
          8 February 2023 19: 41
          "But is there an answer to the question - where are the heroes of the Russian Federation and what are they?"
          there are many of them, if you did not know, and all sorts. including these:
      2. +4
        8 February 2023 12: 22
        KV, who stopped and smashed a column of German tanks, is a real fact. The fighting qualities of the KV-1 until the middle of the 42nd against light and medium vehicles without the support of infantry and artillery are undeniable.
        1. +3
          8 February 2023 12: 26
          Quote: Jager
          KV, who stopped and smashed a column of German tanks, is a real fact. The fighting qualities of the KV-1 until the middle of the 42nd against light and medium vehicles without the support of infantry and artillery are undeniable.

          I’m not talking about a specific battle, which of course was and no one disputes it, as in the article about 28 Panfilov’s men ... it’s just that the fantastic “Captain America” has nothing to do with it - he certainly didn’t exist? and so they were called into question, only from what I heard - Gastello, Matrosov, 28 Panfilovs ... of course, somewhere embellished, but the feat of the defenders of Moscow is undeniable, even if suddenly there were no 28 Panfilovs, just like they described..
          and personally, I consider the battle of Moscow to be at least important, no less than Stalingrad, as a contribution to the Victory ..
  6. +5
    8 February 2023 07: 51
    We are waiting for further revelations of black and white magic, there was about Morozov Pavlik, Kosmodemyanskaya, it was .. Now here are 28 Panfilov's men .. Who is next?
    1. +9
      8 February 2023 08: 38
      We are waiting for further revelations of black and white magic, there was about Morozov Pavlik, Kosmodemyanskaya, it was .. Now here are 28 Panfilov's men .. Who is next?
      A story regularly pops up on the Internet that allegedly after the fall of the Berlin Wall in the fall of 1989, some KGB colonel, threatening to use his service weapon, dispersed a crowd of German rioters near the house of Soviet-German friendship. Moreover, the store at his "service weapon" for some reason held 14 rounds, although at that time the service weapon was PM with 8 rounds.
      1. +9
        8 February 2023 08: 58
        A story pops up regularly on the Internet about
        This story will not be exposed ... It will remain a legend .. smile Or maybe they'll make a movie...
        1. +3
          8 February 2023 17: 08
          So it will remain a legend .. smile Or maybe they will also make a film ...
          About the movie - good ! Surely Nikitushka Mikhalkov will stage.
          1. Fat
            +3
            8 February 2023 17: 17
            So what? For lack of a maid.... wassat feel wassat
            We'll figure it out!
    2. 0
      8 February 2023 09: 37
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      Who's next?

      Revelations should begin with Rurik!
      Then, moving smoothly, reach Kosmodemyanskaya, Pamfilov, five-year plans, etc ...
    3. +2
      8 February 2023 17: 47
      it would be nice to give some details of the life of the "Young Guard". And then the fellow countrymen of the Young Guard have somewhat different ideas than in the novel "Young Guard", and some circumstances cause bad scoffing against the backdrop of a fairy tale. Completely unraveled, you understand!
  7. +5
    8 February 2023 08: 32
    From the memoirs of Katukov -

    On November 18, Lavrinenko arrived in his tank in the village of Gusenevo, where by that time the headquarters of General Panfilov had moved. There Dmitry Fedorovich met with Malikov. The crew of the BT-7 also operated with a full combat load the day before. All night long, he covered the retreat of artillery units to new positions, continuously repulsing the attacks of the pressing Nazis.

    Panfilov's people in those days had events that brought them nationwide fame. The feat of 28 fighters thundered throughout the country, blocking the way for German tanks at the Dubosekovo junction. A lot has been written about the unparalleled courage of the Panfilov heroes, so I won’t repeat what is vividly, with complete reliability, told in books and brochures by other participants in the battles near Moscow. I can only say that the feat of 28 soldiers at the Dubosekovo junction revealed in all its grandeur the wonderful soul, the indestructible moral strength of the Soviet man, who became a breast in defense of his native land, his unshakable loyalty to the socialist Fatherland, his people.

    “Russia is great, but there is nowhere to retreat, Moscow is behind!” Needless to say, these harsh words of political instructor V. G. Klochkov gained in those days for the Panfilov soldiers, for the tankers of the 1st Guards, and for the horsemen of Dovator, the force of an order dictated by the revolutionary conscience of a communist, Komsomol member, Soviet citizen.

    And the map dated November 18, everything is marked on it, the battle was


    Of course, the military commander, sitting at the headquarters of the division, could not know the details of the battle, embellished the events, but the fact that the 1075th Infantry Regiment took the battle there is beyond doubt.
    1. +6
      8 February 2023 18: 03
      Quote: Konnick
      From the memoirs of Katukov -

      Ahem ... Remind you of Zhukov's memoirs, the text of which fluctuated along with the party line?
      Or about the numerous memoirs about the Prokhorov battle, which contradict the documents signed by the authors of these memoirs?

      Yes, and Katukov himself in his memoirs managed to inflict losses on the enemy, twice the number of this enemy.
      1. 0
        9 February 2023 08: 54
        Yes, and Katukov himself in his memoirs managed to inflict losses on the enemy, twice the number of this enemy.

        I did not describe the actions of Katukov. He just stood there without receiving any orders or instructions from Rokossovsky. Katukov's tank brigade stood literally a few kilometers from the Dubosekov junction, but did not take any action to help the Panfilov division, sending Burda's company to the Matrenino station, not knowing the situation at the front. And so the feat appeared, just Rokossovsky, being at the command post with Panfilov, did not order to send a brigade to help the 1075th regiment, apparently he did not consider it important. Rokossovsky wrote in his memoirs only this phrase -
        It was on this day that twenty-eight heroes from the Panfilov division, led by political instructor Vasily Klochkov, performed their world-famous feat at the Dubosekovo junction. His words “Russia is great, but there is nowhere to retreat - behind Moscow” spread throughout the country and the army.
        1. 0
          9 February 2023 10: 49
          Quote: Konnick
          And so the feat appeared, just Rokossovsky, being at the command post with Panfilov, did not order to send a brigade to the aid of the 1075th regiment, apparently he did not consider it important.

          Would she be able to? If they send a tank brigade, then to the 1073th regiment, on which German tanks came out from the flank (just from the 1075th regiment) in the middle of the day.
          Ulanov AKA kris-reid posted a scan of the operational summary of the 1073th regiment for the period from 16 to 18 November. It says right there that
          On 16.11 at 14:30, the first echelon of 12 tanks entered the regimental command post in Yadrovo. and further in separate groups up to 30 pcs.

          Generally,
          ... already at 14.30 Moscow time (i.e. at 11.30 Berlin time) the Germans are already attacking with tanks and infantry from the KP 1073 regiment in Yadrovo. Those. by this time the defense of the 1075th regiment had already been destroyed.
          At the same time, the positions of the 2nd (consolidated) battalion 1073 joint ventures (anti-tank rifle platoon, 2- 76-mm PA, 4 45-mm guns), which were in the forest south-west of the headquarters, were attacked half an hour later, incl. already from the rear from Yadrovo.
          © kris-reid
        2. +1
          9 February 2023 13: 44
          Quote: Konnick
          Rokossovsky wrote in his memoirs only this phrase -
          It was on this day that they performed their world-famous feat at the Dubosekovo junction.
          This is exactly what is written about in the article - rarely a general participating in the Moscow battle refrained from "remembering" 28 Panfilov's men in his post-war memoirs about the heroic battle.
          It is well known that memoirs are one of the most unreliable sources of information.
        3. +1
          9 February 2023 14: 37
          And so the feat appeared, just Rokossovsky, being at the command post with Panfilov, did not order to send a brigade to the aid of the 1075th regiment, apparently he did not consider it important.
          Thus, it was not a feat that appeared, but a flank pass of the enemy, which led to the encirclement of most of the combat strength of 1075 joint ventures and, as a result, the hasty abandonment of their positions by the regiment.
          And hardly Rokossovsky 16.11. was at Panfilov's command post, he had to be at his command post and listen to furious thrashings from Zhukov for the too slow development of the 16A offensive.
          Apparently because of this (the head was occupied by the offensive), Rokossovsky lost sight of the flank attack of the 2 TD combat groups on the defensive line of 316 RD, or underestimated the danger of this strike
  8. +9
    8 February 2023 08: 41
    How the legend of 28 Panfilov heroes was created in the Soviet press
    The author pays a lot of attention to the glorification of fiction, but did not write a word about why this article was needed at that time? The message of the article about the Panfilov heroes was needed only for one thing, to raise the morale of not only the defenders of Moscow, but also the overall morale of the army! hi
    1. +4
      8 February 2023 15: 27
      When I was a kid, I asked my father how it was? Father said that there was everything. Many things were not known, and many things could not be told.
  9. +7
    8 February 2023 08: 44
    To be honest, the attacks on the author surprise me a little. A person wants to know the truth and wants to bring it to the readers.
    Do we need this truth? Needed, because the truth is always better than a lie. Consciously renouncing the truth in favor of a deliberate lie, no matter how pleasant it may be, is probably the biggest stupidity that a person can afford, and stupidity is an expensive thing, as Volodya Sharapov said, and not every one of us can afford to maintain it. Anyway, I pass. smile
    There is a second question: is what the author writes actually true? This is the question I agree to discuss. Can anyone substantively convict the author of a lie or an unintentional mistake? Me not. But I will read with sincere interest in the comments everything that my colleagues write about the facts presented in the article.
    1. +2
      8 February 2023 09: 32
      There is a second question: is what the author writes actually true?
      "If an elephant is written on the cage, do not believe your eyes" (c). K. Prutkov .. The author, conducted his own research, his own .. And laid out his opinion .. There is no general opinion .. Since the author himself writes:
      So there is good reason to believe that the debate about the heroic Panfilov tank battle at the Dubosekovo junction will continue for several more decades ...
      1. +12
        8 February 2023 10: 10
        Quote: kor1vet1974
        The author did his research

        The author is convinced that there was no battle near Dubosekovo, as it was described in the newspapers of that time. And this is the real truth - in this form there was no fight. Based on this not false premise, the author set the goal of his research - to figure out how the myth of the battle near Dubosekovo was formed. From this point of view, his work should be evaluated. It was interesting to me.
        And for some reason, most commentators are discussing the question of whether it is necessary to investigate anything at all in this area and how anti-Soviet the author is. wassat
        Such collective masturbation, to be honest, depresses me.
        1. +1
          8 February 2023 11: 10
          Yes, but here he researched, here he didn’t research, no, as they say, research systems and the result was what happened .. Hence the reaction of the commentators .. The author wanted the best, but it turned out, as always. smile
          1. +3
            9 February 2023 15: 09
            Yes, but here he researched, here he did not research, no, as they say, research systems
            You either did not read the article carefully, or deliberately disingenuous.
            It is precisely in the presentation of the material that a clear system is observed: the events (publications in the press) are brought to the reader in chronological order, both the connection and contradictions are shown between them, and the final conclusion is contained at the end of the article.
            Thus, the question under investigation is "How in the Soviet press a legend about 28 Panfilov heroes was created" is covered in detail and completely.

            So what are the complaints?
            You may disagree with the conclusions and even call the author an anti-Soviet and a scoundrel (your right to pour out poison), but you just don’t need to say that there is no system in the study - this is not true
    2. +5
      8 February 2023 09: 34
      Michael,
      Good afternoon,
      I often write articles about historical "myths" myself. The question is not whether it is right or wrong to debunk myths. For example, I never set such a goal, as well as the goal of exposing anyone, my task is to inform about what opinions, conclusions and views on this or that event are in historical science. I try to explain why such “myths” arose, for example, I wrote about the myth that the Khazars are Slavs or about the place of the baptism of Rus'.
      But I don’t write headlines in the style of “How Soviet historians came up with Ancient Rus'”, or even more trenchant “How Soviet historians came up with feudalism in Ancient Rus'”, which is scientifically true, but it sounds extremely incorrect, because it turns out that they KNOWN AND SPECIALLY FALSED and INVENTED.
      The difference is this.
      Because the Soviet press did not do this on purpose, which, by the way, is what the real researcher of the issue, Isaev, writes about.
      And even more so such unfounded statements:
      Because of this, not many historians are eager to publish studies that destroy the myths that exist in society about the battles of the Great Patriotic War period.

      Who, surnames, names, appearances, addresses - no, this is impossible!
      hi
      1. +6
        8 February 2023 10: 30
        Greetings, Edward. hi
        I'll start from the end. smile
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        surnames, first names, appearances, addresses

        Here the author got a little carried away, I agree. But, nevertheless, given the pressure to which he was subjected in the comments to his previous articles, the phrase
        not many historians are eager to publish research that destroys the myths prevailing in society
        may seem apologetic. smile
        The author chose the title of the article from the task, nothing more. The author has no doubts about the mythological nature of the newspaper description of the battle near Dubosekovo, he was interested in the formation of the myth and the name is quite consistent with the content, in my opinion.
        But that writing such articles requires a systematic approach, you are, of course, right.
      2. +5
        8 February 2023 12: 35
        Greetings, Edward
        This comment alone is enough for this article.
        good good good
    3. +1
      8 February 2023 09: 38
      The trick is that speaking the truth about today is fraught. But looking at how the events of forty years ago are distorted, something does not want to believe in the "truth" of those years.
      Moreover, the time was really difficult, so such a feat was needed to raise the mood in the country.
      And if the author is such a truth-seeker, let him write about the reorganization and abandonment of Kherson.
      1. +7
        8 February 2023 09: 58
        And if the author is such a truth-seeker, let him write about the reorganization and abandonment of Kherson.

        No. One can only talk about how Stalin Sorge did not believe and did not believe that the war would begin, and how the tank wedges of the Nazis attacked with lightning speed in 1941, and the Red Army lost all the tanks.
  10. +3
    8 February 2023 08: 47
    "For some reason, people feel a keen dislike for historians, who destroy by their research the myths that have developed in society, elevated to the status of historical dogmas. And they are especially painfully perceived by attempts to question the reliability of some of the exploits of the spacecraft soldiers widely covered in the Soviet press." - Probably because normal people understand the difference between historians and "meticulous researchers of dirty laundry for the sake of hype", Now we are waiting for the next exposure of the bible from the author
  11. +7
    8 February 2023 08: 58
    The propaganda connoisseur Shpakovsky was replaced by the propaganda connoisseur Tyurin. The truth is, for some reason, one-sidedly interested in propaganda. I invite the author to talk about propaganda, for example, in the Vlasov newspaper "Will of the People" or Counterattack magazine. Well, why not? I can assure you that there is plenty of material. If I had not realized my need for journalism, I myself would not have missed such a tasty morsel.
    1. -2
      8 February 2023 09: 15
      those. do you think the historian A. Isaev is lying, claiming that there was no serious clash at Dubosekovo, just as there were no 28 Panfilovites?
      1. +2
        8 February 2023 09: 37
        those. In your...

        The union "that is" suggests that your message should be related to mine in meaning. Would it be difficult for you to explain your train of thought that led to such a question of yours in my words?
  12. BAI
    +8
    8 February 2023 08: 59
    the collapse of the USSR, when the “gates of glasnost” opened wide, publications began to appear in the press, where it was reported that some Panfilov heroes who were listed as buried in a mass grave actually remained alive.

    Well, why wait so long? In the 70s of the last century, a meeting with a surviving Panfilov was shown on TV. Ivan Shadrin. Then the figure was announced - 6 people survived.
  13. +3
    8 February 2023 09: 03
    Exploring the historical events of that war, it is interesting to compare reports about specific battles from the official documents of the opponents. The article does not contain a single reference to reports of a clash near the river. Dubosekovo from the archives of the German side. And these documents must be! The German side is very pedantic in reports on past battles. Therefore, it is impossible both to praise the author of the article and to scold him. Whoever does this (scolds or praises the author), he simply defends his position on this issue, and not the truth about the war.
    1. +3
      8 February 2023 09: 18
      Isaev studied the German archives in the part of Dubosekovo, according to him, the Wehrmacht passed the siding without actually noticing resistance ...
    2. -2
      8 February 2023 10: 01
      Quote: Evgenijus
      Exploring the historical events of that war, it is interesting to compare reports about specific battles from the official documents of the opponents. The article does not contain a single reference to reports of a clash near the river. Dubosekovo from the archives of the German side


      The author confirmed that the conclusions of the prosecutor's office were falsified
      Thus, the materials of the investigation established that the feat 28 of the Panfilov guards, covered in the press, is a fiction of the correspondent Koroteev, the editor of Krasnaya Zvezda Ortenberg, and especially the literary secretary of the newspaper Krivitsky ... "

      They can be accused of plagiarism, but not that they came up with a feat. Ivanov and Chernyshev wrote about this earlier. And the second article by Krivitsky with details, yes, but after he talked with Gundilovich. And if so, why did he confess to the prosecutor's office that he had invented a feat. It is more natural to say, according to Gundilovich, there are claims against him. So anyone would do. But the prosecutor's office did not need such an answer. And why did these guys ask only Dobrobabin and Kaprov? After all, there were surviving soldiers of the 2nd platoon, and they knew about it. Yes, and Dobrobabin was already engaged in Smersh in 1943. After that, he received the Order of Glory. And why the hell is the Chief Prosecutor's Office doing this? Only then. when someone's goal is higher.
      That. what played the rule of a damaged phone and mixed up the names of the heroes in the description of the nature of the two battles (at Mykanino and Dubosekovo) it was. At Mykanino, political instructor Georgiev (a fighter who fought under his command called him Yegor Diev), with a commander (a reconnaissance platoon of a reconnaissance battalion - for a fault. He headed the PT at the division and became an instructor for Fri platoons) Lt. Ugryumov. And political instructor Kolychev is Klochkov, because the nature of the battle described by Ivanov more closely matches the battle in the second article of Krivitsky (after talking with Gundilovich).
      Well, and most importantly, why would Krivitsky be sent to Gundilovich, because he didn’t know where to look for this platoon? So the commanders and political workers * Guards. SD indicated - it was they who sent. means they knew.
      Well, as for the battle, there is new evidence - ZhBD BG 1. where the task (parts of BG 1) of the Hoppe subgroup (commander of the 2nd battalion of the 3rd infantry (rifle) regiment 2 TD, attack to the left of Nelidovo. That is, just at the position of 2 platoon 4 companies.
  14. +4
    8 February 2023 09: 36
    I recommend an analysis with extracts from the journal of military operations. Including the Germans. There, excuse me, everything is clear.
    https://afirsov.livejournal.com/701245.html
    1. +1
      8 February 2023 10: 10
      Better to use reports. ZhBD is always somewhat tricky. All descriptions are backdated (always), and the most unpleasant moments may not be indicated, and are served in such a veiled form that you will understand the hell. Here's BG 1. How did the Hoppe subgroup end up in Petelino? Everything about the Kelitz subgroup is described in detail. And Hoppe, who was walking through the positions of the 2nd platoon, is not a damn thing. But then, in a report to the 5th AK, they cry about the problem south of Peteleno (just the positions of the Klochkovites and the 5th company).
      1. +3
        8 February 2023 12: 09
        Quote: chenia
        Better to use reports. JBD is always a bit tricky

        Read. The author is also a journalist, editor of "Technology and Armaments". He just deciphered it there, the Germans had fun in the railroads, they say there were fights, there were no losses, then bam - and three tank attack groups had to be reduced into one, and that one could not attack. Where are the tanks going? And the battles near Dubosekovo were only fought ...
  15. 0
    8 February 2023 09: 51
    Fuck how timely and important whistleblowers appear.
    Question to the publication: do you need it? Does anyone need it?
    Say who really needs it?
  16. +10
    8 February 2023 10: 06
    I read all the comments... You know, every lie multiplies the next lie. Someone can say - there was such a time that examples of heroism were needed to raise the spirit of the fighting people. But the truth is, no matter how much lies dress up in the clothes of truth, the time will come when the lie will come out. And then disbelief in a feat will be born. Myths have always been and always will be. But after all, people who have already lived and have life experience, including military experience, come to such resources as the Military Review. And that means having both critical thinking and the ability to distinguish reality from myths. Why lie to yourself. Have there been few real feats of our history that not everyone knows about? Why quietly, without excitement, do not replace the myths with the truth. In my opinion, this is a more rewarding task than defending myths.
    1. Fat
      +4
      8 February 2023 11: 39
      hi Alexander.
      Quote: Alexander Kuksin
      I read all the comments...

      Not all, Alexander. In order to make such a summary in the "topic" you need to go late in the evening. The question reasonably arises: How consciously did you allow yourself such words that clearly do not correspond to the "truth"?
      Quote: Alexander Kuksin
      Why quietly, without excitement, do not replace the myths with the truth. In my opinion, this is a more rewarding task than defending myths.

      But there is no need to replace anything. Let the myth remain a myth, and the specified details of events cannot in any way interfere with its existence in the minds of people.
      I frankly welcome the author's attempt to understand the reasons for the appearance of the epic story about 28 Panfilov heroes, but I do not call this study "exposure of the myth" - it is not.
      With respect.
      PS minus - not mine.
      1. +4
        8 February 2023 16: 28
        "All comments" is at the time of reading ... Did not have the intention in terms of the topic. :-) So I also think that let myths remain myths. I re-read Myths of Ancient Greece with pleasure. I just think that serious moments of history should be looked at without prejudice. After all, by and large, no one is interested in "what kind of International are you ...". If it was accepted in schools to study the Young Guard, then so be it, but at the same time it is not at all necessary to clarify to schoolchildren that in case number 20056, consisting of 28 volumes of the investigation on charges of policemen and German gendarmes in the massacre of the underground organization Young Guard, those under investigation could not remember anything about such an organization. Yes, and Fadeev himself was very dissatisfied with the work entrusted to him to create a novel. But even if this is a myth, it is a necessary myth for the patriotic education of youth.
        Yes, I don't downvote anyone. Everyone is entitled to their own understanding of the issue. I have another difficulty. The comment button doesn't show up for me. Because who writes comments to me, I can not see.
        1. Fat
          +2
          8 February 2023 17: 12
          Purely technically: There was a tool on the site that notifies colleagues about the "answers" - "Bell". It was killed by unfriendly people.
          This "mechanism has been hacked... Perhaps we will return to the direct one.
          But not now, not yet
          (C)
        2. Fat
          0
          8 February 2023 19: 10
          Once A wonderful person once said "I have a dream"...
          I also have one. Let all grief be cast off with a torus ....
    2. +4
      8 February 2023 11: 52
      What is a myth? Not everything is clear with Ivan Susanin either. And on November 4, nothing happened.
      1. +3
        8 February 2023 12: 59
        And on November 4, nothing happened.
        But the myth was created that the entire Russian people, as one, rose to fight against the Polish invaders, etc. and mind you, the film, 1940, Minin and Pozharsky, are trying not to play on the central channels ...
    3. 0
      8 February 2023 19: 34
      Quote: Alexander Kuksin
      But the truth is, no matter how much lies dress up in the clothes of truth, the time will come when the lie will come out. And then disbelief in a feat will be born.

      I completely agree with your opinion.
      Quote: Alexander Kuksin
      But after all, people who have already lived and have life experience, including military experience, come to such resources as the Military Review. And that means having critical thinking

      And in this case, you are very, very optimistic. Have you read the book by Sergei Kara-Murza "Manipulation of Consciousness"?
  17. +5
    8 February 2023 10: 23
    As I understand it, itching to sow doubts, rinse the feat of our grandfathers does not stop? Who now, after so much time, will say exactly how it was?
    If no one is left alive.
    STOP YOU FINALLY, DIRTY SNOUT DIGGING IN THE HOLY GRAVES!!!
    Many do not understand the feat of those generations, because ours is not capable of this.
    How long has it been like this - the exploits of Maresyev, Gastello, Matrosov, Panfilov, and others, were poured with poison, no matter what then
    lies were refuted, the main thing is to sow doubts in people.
    The case of Solzhenitsyn and such hacks as Sokolov B. again, like a thistle, breaks out.
  18. -3
    8 February 2023 10: 24
    Former Minister of Culture V. Medinsky equated the 28 Panfilovites with saints, adding at the same time ........ those who question, dig and try to refute the feat of these people will burn in hell.
    Better not to say.
    1. +5
      8 February 2023 11: 39
      Please, is this the same goy that sculpted the memorial plaque to Manegheim in Leningrad?
      1. -1
        8 February 2023 12: 28
        Quote: faiver
        Wait, it's the same goy

        ......... will not give out, the pig will not eat.
        Everything will be fine.
  19. +1
    8 February 2023 10: 25
    Maybe it was more objective for the author to start the analysis with three hundred Spartans? And continue with three hundred Kyiv students? Such mythology in times of severe trials is, as they say now, a social order. It is necessary to inspire and unite the masses of the people in times of difficult trials. And who presented this material to the masses - Herodotus or Krivitsky, is no longer very important.
    1. +7
      8 February 2023 11: 16
      Maybe it was more objective for the author to start the analysis with three hundred Spartans?
      And the battle at Marathon .. they say 10 to the dust ... cold weapons .. smile
      1. +4
        8 February 2023 11: 39
        Most importantly, do not let them go to the Mahabharata, and other heroic epic of the past.
  20. +4
    8 February 2023 10: 25
    A few general remarks, irrespective of the Panfilovites and the battle near Dubosekovo.

    The official history of ANY country contains a set of highly mythologized events, usually military events, which are designed to show the "greatness of the spirit of the nation" and serve as an example for posterity, material for the patriotic education of youth.

    The classics of the genre are numerous works by ancient historians, glorifying the unparalleled prowess of the ancient Greeks and Romans. One of the principles of this genre is the unbridled exaggeration of the number of enemies and, accordingly, the minimization of the number of heroes opposing them. Narrating about the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the number of Persians opposing him in some battles is brought up to a million soldiers (!). Subsequently, this principle was fixed and is still applied today.

    The military history of the United States is no exception. There are the same mythologized feats that have become textbook (along with really perfect ones). A typical example is the defeat and, as it is believed, the heroic death of the detachment of Colonel Custer in 1876. In fact, the classic punitive expedition against the Indians, including their families, ended in the encirclement and complete destruction of the punishers themselves (266 soldiers led by the brave colonel).
    6 films (!) were shot about this "feat" and critical disassemblies like ours about the Panfilovites are not particularly observed. Once they died in battle, it means a feat ...



    PS And apparently there was a battle near Dubosekovo and German tanks were burning there. They did not go to Moscow ...



    .
    1. +6
      8 February 2023 10: 58
      The history of any country is full of mythology, which is considered the official version and which is taught in educational institutions. Although there is also a documented description of these events that does not match the official version. Briefly speaking:
    2. +3
      8 February 2023 12: 45
      Yes, the hell with two is not observed, Custer's fight, sorted out by the minute.
      1. +4
        8 February 2023 13: 07
        And Timothy does not write about "per-minute analyzes", but about his attitude towards persons and events. Monuments were erected to Custer and cities were named after him. несмотря на "minute-by-minute analyzes", where he ended up in the minds of people not as a thug, but as a knight without fear and reproach, the honor of the nation.
      2. 0
        9 February 2023 10: 18
        I really have nothing about the minute-by-minute "analysis" of the death of Custer's detachment. If anyone is interested, sort it out at least in seconds who and where fled from the Indians, saving your scalp. We are talking about a general assessment of this event - did they dispose of cruel punishers or are they heroes, as an example to follow? I have not seen a wide public discussion, heated debates on this very issue among the Americans.
  21. +6
    8 February 2023 10: 59
    Every legend starts with something real.

    Visited this place 3 times at different times - I wish the author at least once.
    The place permeates with an atmosphere of masculinity, severity, fortitude - but not thoughts of "fictitious legends".
  22. +3
    8 February 2023 11: 05
    Question to the community: Why is the author of the articles - Zinovy ​​Yuryevich Krivitsky, and on the titles of brochures - A. Krivitsky? Is it the same person?
  23. +3
    8 February 2023 11: 41
    Quote: ArchiPhil
    The author has already written about the feat of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, now he has reached the Panfilovites. Question. Why? All these * revelations
    You misunderstand the purpose of writing articles.
    The goal is not to expose, but to restore the HISTORY of our country.

    In an article about Z.A. Kosmodemyanskaya was: a) an explanation was given of what exactly her feat consists of; b) it is told who during the Second World War was called partisans; c) explains what circumstance caused the issuance of order No. 0428, during the execution of which soldier Z.A. died. Kosmodemyanskaya.
    What some readers saw here as "exposing" or even more so discrediting the feat of Kosmodemyanskaya for me is the Great Mystery.
    Apparently, for some people, the assimilation of such articles is an impossible task - people read the text, but see in it some kind of their own conclusions, of which there is no mention in the text.

    The same can be said about this article, which never casts doubt on the heroism of the fighters and commanders of the 316th Rifle Division, but only explains that in 1941, some correspondents, instead of perpetuating the names of REAL HEROES and the feats accomplished, were wiped in army headquarters and collected stories that were even ashamed to be published, they were so incredible.
    And in the end it turned out that 28 randomly selected people received the HIGHEST DIFFERENCE in the USSR for a feat invented by newspapermen.
    The article was written to restore HISTORY, and the author is not to blame for the fact that some of the readers will find this story unpleasant
    1. +4
      8 February 2023 11: 58
      Now, if the author had first "meticulously" investigated this issue, and then already stated - "These people (by surname), according to the documents found, are not heroes and they were awarded incorrectly, but these people performed feats (again - by surname and with documents) and they need to be rewarded for so many destroyed tanks and so many killed opponents "- That's when you could write an article, a book, etc., otherwise, it's just stuffing g..na on the fan and you won't like it any normal person. You can't destroy your house without first building a new one.
    2. 0
      8 February 2023 12: 28
      Quote: Lewww
      The goal is not to expose, but to restore the HISTORY of our country.

      Oh really!
      But you brought the main thing
      first, that the fight is not an invention of journalists. Ivanov received information from the same source that Chernyshev and Koroteev received a few days later. Hence no talk. About. that journalists invented a feat should not be.
      If. and talk about this, then you have to blame the command and the political department of the 316th SD, or rather, already the 8th Guards. SD. Then why the heck did they confess to the GP that they were all making it up? Well, if they are not convincing have asked. .All articles, and Koroteev (on the basis of which Krivitsky was noted) was the last in the list of authors. What could he think? Well, Krivitsky added the number of -28 people to the article. And the details of the battle are one to one the same.
      second - why was Krivitsky sent to Gundilovich? That there are perverts in the 8th Guards SD. So they hid the true heroes, and showed the far-fetched ones.

      Here the command and political workers are just bastards (not correspondents) and are engaged in meanness, mocking historical truth.

      And if allowed. that Krivitsky was sent to the right place? Yes, and the Germans had problems there.
      You know LEFF.
  24. +1
    8 February 2023 11: 50
    [quote=Konnick][/quote]
    And the map from November 18, everything is marked on it, the fight was


    Of course, the military commander, sitting at the headquarters of the division, could not know the details of the battle, embellished the events, but the fact that the 1075th Infantry Regiment took the battle there is beyond doubt. [/ Quote]

    A colleague, the situation plotted on the map (by the way, not accurate) only allows us to state that on 16.11.41/1075/XNUMX the Germans attacked the left flank of XNUMX sp.
    And it is impossible to understand in what particular places of the defensive section of the regiment there were battles according to this fragment, in order to study this issue, it is necessary to raise and carefully study the documents of the spacecraft and the Wehrmacht.

    [quote] From Katukov's memoirs [/ quote] this is exactly what was said in the article:
    [Quote]

    After the end of the war, the battle of 28 Panfilov’s soldiers described by Krivitsky at the Dubosekovo junction was mentioned in numerous literary publications, and was also included in the memoirs of various Soviet military leaders.
  25. +4
    8 February 2023 11: 56
    The author could also tell about the fate of the "hero" - policeman Sergeant Dobrobabin in our time. It turns out that the bust of this "hero" - a policeman is installed on the alley of heroes in the city of Tsimlyansk, Rostov region, and even with the star of the hero of the Soviet Union. The activists, knowing the true biography of the policeman, tried to remove the bust of the "hero" from the alley of heroes through the courts, but all the courts lost, since this "hero" was a policeman in the Kharkov region and, accordingly, he was tried in the Ukrainian SSR. And in 1993, the Supreme Court of the new Ukraine rehabilitated all the accomplices of the Germans. And referring to this rehabilitation, our humane court does not want to admit that Dobrobabin is currently still a war criminal and a traitor to the Motherland. Here is the answer to the question of some commentators here, whether it is worth stirring up the past. Not only worth it, but necessary. And another question arises, how did our democratic and "patriotic" government react at that time to the rehabilitation of war criminals in friendly Ukraine?
  26. +5
    8 February 2023 12: 50
    In short, the real story of the resource's visitors not only do not know, but do not want to know.
    In general, the fact that each next war, in our country, begins with a repetition of the mistakes of the previous one, as it were, suggests that not the desire to know anything and learn some lessons from history is universal in society, and therefore in the army.
    1. +3
      8 February 2023 13: 39
      In short, the real story of the resource's visitors not only do not know, but do not want to know.

      The remark about the categorical unwillingness of the majority to know the real history is correct, but the question arises, for those who remain who want to know the real history, where to look for it? Name the life-giving source of "real history"!
      1. 0
        8 February 2023 19: 12
        Quote: Ruyter-57
        Name the life-giving source of "real history"!

        Aleksey Isaev "Unknown 1941", "When there was no more surprise", "Boilers of 1941", "Points of no return in 1941" and many other books by this author. Alexander Bolnykh "Lightning War".
  27. +1
    8 February 2023 13: 15
    I don’t understand, didn’t our wars fight heroically? Or, in the most difficult situation of the winter of 1941, Moscow was not defended? What is this conscious manipulation of public opinion for? What is the purpose of this opus? Open Overton window? And what's next? "True" stories of how Soviet soldiers raped all German women several times? Well, the cherry on that cake is repentance for the "atrocities" of the Soviet soldier and the rewriting of the history of the Great Patriotic War in favor of the "correct" winners from the West, from across the ocean.
    1. Fat
      +2
      8 February 2023 13: 51
      hi The concept of the "Overton Window" is primitive enough to sanely explain to a non-specialist the principles of the "movement of ideas" in society. But that doesn't mean she's flawless. lol Conspiracy theories are in their purest form.
  28. +2
    8 February 2023 13: 30
    Quote: chenia
    The author confirmed that the conclusions of the prosecutor's office were falsified
    you, as usual, misrepresent what the author wrote in your own way - this is demagoguery

    Quote: chenia
    They can be accused of plagiarism, but not that they came up with a feat.
    it was the fact that they invented the feat of 28 Panfilov’s men that was established by the inspection of the prosecutor’s office, which is literally written in the conclusion based on the results of the inspection:
    Thus, the materials of the investigation established that the feat of 28 Panfilov guardsmen, covered in the press, is fiction correspondent Koroteev, editor of Krasnaya Zvezda Ortenberg, and especially the literary secretary of the newspaper Krivitsky.
    So accept this as an established fact.
    1. +2
      8 February 2023 14: 01
      So accept this as an established fact.

      Didn't you write this?
      But the most curious thing in this dispute of longtime opponents, now about the correct interpretation of the meaning of Help, is that both of them completely misinterpret its conclusions.

      Why then did you decide that you managed to see in the results of the check exactly what the person who made it meant? Moreover, you yourself write that a different task was set before the prosecutor's office. I now see the phrase "covered in the press" in the message, which can be understood as "the version that is covered in the press." And immediately the "fact" of the non-existent feat of the Panfilovites at Dubosekovo ceases to be a fact.
    2. 0
      8 February 2023 14: 23
      Quote: Lewww
      it was the fact that they invented the feat of 28 Panfilov’s men that was established by the inspection of the prosecutor’s office, which is literally written in the conclusion based on the results of the inspection:


      HA-HA.
      This is how it can be. Koroteev, Krivitsky invented what Ivanov (especially) and Chernyshev had already invented earlier.
      You are friends with the head. .
      If there was a copyright dispute, then Koroteev, and after him Krivitsky lost it.
      HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO INVENT WHAT IS ALREADY INVENTED?
      Already information about the battle was covered in Izvestia and Komsomolskaya Pravda.
      HOW?
      You are cunningly trying to get away from the correct answer - THE SOURCE OF INFORMATION, NOT THE MAGAZINES (they can invent any damn thing), but the command. and political department 8Gv.SD.
      AND YOU PROVED IT
      And if so, what the hell Correspondents confessed?

      WELL, ANOTHER STEP AND YOU WILL REALIZE
  29. 0
    8 February 2023 13: 35
    Quote: chenia
    Well, as for the battle, there is new evidence - ZhBD BG 1. where the task (parts of BG 1) of the Hoppe subgroup (commander of the 2nd battalion of the 3rd infantry (rifle) regiment 2 TD, attack to the left of Nelidovo. That is, just at the position of 2 platoon 4 companies.
    this is not proof, but another speculation with the goal of pulling an owl on the globe at all costs, which I explained to you many times before, but alas, things are still there laughing
  30. +1
    8 February 2023 13: 45
    Quote: Military Specialist
    Question to the community: Why is the author of the articles - Zinovy ​​Yuryevich Krivitsky, and on the titles of brochures - A. Krivitsky? Is it the same person?
    Zinovy ​​is, according to his documents of 1941, Alexander of the type of a pseudonym so that his Jewish nationality is not conspicuous. It is possible that at some stage he officially changed his name Zinovy ​​to Alexander - he did not understand this issue.
    Ortenberg was also a Jew and therefore signed his publications with the pseudonym Vadimov.
  31. 0
    8 February 2023 13: 52
    Quote: Alexander Kuksin
    I read all the comments... You know, every lie multiplies the next lie. Someone can say - there was such a time that examples of heroism were needed to raise the spirit of the fighting people. But the truth is, no matter how much lies dress up in the clothes of truth, the time will come that the lie will come out.
    Well, at least one of the readers correctly understood the general message of the article -
    such fictions were ideological time bombs - decades later, the truth could break out and eventually cause people from the younger generation to doubt the reality of other heroic deeds covered in the Soviet press and included in school history books.

    plus
    1. Fat
      +2
      8 February 2023 14: 22
      hi Hello Leo. I do not think that passing off as the main concept
      Quote: Lewww
      such fictions were ideological time bombs - decades later, the truth could break out and eventually cause people from the younger generation to doubt the reality of other heroic deeds covered in the Soviet press and included in school history books.
      You are sincere.
      When there is a tendency to "chanting" fictions, then the "leadership" has a reasonable desire to lead this process so that it does not bring tangible harm later ... Hence the numerous messages of memoirists to the "legend"
  32. +1
    8 February 2023 14: 27
    Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
    Now, if the author had first "meticulously" investigated this issue, and then already stated - "These people (by surname), according to the documents found, are not heroes and they were awarded incorrectly, but these people performed feats (again - by surname
    A colleague, the author (that is, me), has studied this issue in sufficient depth.
    But the purpose of the article under discussion was not at all a refutation, or vice versa, proving the reality of the event that on 16.11.41/XNUMX/XNUMX Dubosekovo had a battle of some Red Army soldiers with German tanks.
    This is the a completely different topic, and obviously ungrateful for the author.

    And in this publication, the author only explains that the battle near Dubosekovo, during which 18 German tanks were destroyed and about 800 Nazis, is an invention of newspapermen - this fact is not confirmed by documents.
    And if this fact is unpleasant for you, I can apologize for upsetting you so much, you should not have read this publication hi
    1. Fat
      0
      8 February 2023 19: 34
      A lion ! You did everything right, defending your point of view, many and I disagree.
      Oh ! just don’t .... Hmm ... Pereziaat
    2. 0
      9 February 2023 13: 36
      Well, you can also say "you shouldn't have researched this topic so one-sidedly" although a lot of work has been done. And why, I wonder, a full study of this issue is "an ungrateful topic for the author"? It is clear that "break, do not build" and there is more hype on this, Herostratus proved it to everyone, but still ...
      1. 0
        9 February 2023 13: 48
        Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
        Well, you can also say "in vain you have researched this topic so one-sidedly"
        I didn’t study it one-sidedly, but over the course of a year I collected dozens of documents from the military and military units of the spacecraft and the Wehrmacht, which contain information about the battles of 16.11. on the defensive site 1075 sp.
        And through their careful study, with acceptable accuracy, he restored how events actually unfolded.
        But I didn’t consider it necessary to write about it in the article - it’s not the topic, and the article is too long, and so almost no one mastered it and didn’t understand its conclusions
  33. +1
    8 February 2023 14: 32
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Why then did you decide that you managed to see in the results of the check exactly what the person who made it meant?
    Colleague, if you are in the final output of the results of the check:
    Thus, the materials of the investigation established that the feat of 28 Panfilov guardsmen, covered in the press, is fiction correspondent KOROTEEV, editor of Krasnaya Zvezda ORTENBERG, and especially the literary secretary of the newspaper KRIVITSKY.
    you can see something other than this output, then I don’t know what to answer you hi
    1. -1
      8 February 2023 14: 53
      see something other than this conclusion, then I really don’t know what to answer you

      But for the sake of decency, at least try to try))
      1) You yourself wrote that people interpret the findings of the audit in different ways. Have you written? Wrote.
      2) If so, does this mean that a conclusion can have more than one interpretation? Means. Otherwise, there would be no paragraph 1
      3) If we assume that among the different interpretations, one is more true than the others, then what is your confidence based on that your version of the interpretation of the conclusions of the certificate in the question "the battle near Dubosekovo during which 18 German tanks were destroyed and about 800 Nazis is an invention" true?
      4) Based on the fact that the version covered by the journalist is erroneous in terms of the composition of the participants in the event? So this is not proof of the absence of an event.
  34. +2
    8 February 2023 15: 01
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    4) Based on the fact that the version covered by the journalist is erroneous in terms of the composition of the participants in the event?

    what kind of event?
    That the 28 people listed in the article on 16.11.41/18/800 took the fight with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less) Fritz, did not let the tanks through their line, and in the end everyone died?
    Do you think that this was actually the case? belay
    1) You yourself wrote that people interpret the findings of the audit in different ways. Have you written? Wrote.
    quite right, he wrote, because people usually read documentary materials not in order to take what is written literally, but in order to find hints in the text to confirm the misconceptions firmly entrenched in their heads laughing
    1. +1
      8 February 2023 15: 23
      But do you believe that one Hartman knocked out 360 aircraft, and one Wittman - 140 tanks? And why can't we believe in the official version about the Panfilovites?
      Why is that ? Yes, because everything that happened since Khrushch and in 1991 and later is generally beyond common sense.
      In confirmation of the absolute surrealism of the propaganda of the "new history of the Russian Federation", I will cite the text of the 5th article on the rehabilitation of victims of political repression;
      Law of the Russian Federation of October 18, 1991 N 1761-I
      "On the rehabilitation of victims of political repression"

      Article 5. ...... persons convicted of:
      ...... dissemination of deliberately false fabrications discrediting the Soviet state or social system;


      Heh ... heh ... it's just about you, Mr. Tyurin! The fact is that today you are protected by law, no matter what nonsense you decide to carry, but we are not.
      1. Fat
        +1
        8 February 2023 15: 44
        Quote: ort
        Article 5. ...... persons convicted of:
        ...... dissemination of deliberately false fabrications discrediting the Soviet state or social system;

        Have you read the entire law or were you satisfied with the "Basic Provisions"?
    2. 0
      8 February 2023 15: 28
      Do you think that this was actually the case?

      I thought that the phrase "erroneous in terms of the composition of the participants in the event" should have excluded such a question.
      people don't usually read non-fiction to take it literally

      Perhaps because not always a literal interpretation = an unambiguous interpretation. For such cases, I like to remember, as an example, the conversation between Carlson and Freken Bock about cognac. The certificate just as literally confirms the acceptance of the unequal battle by the 4th company on November 16 on the line Nelidovo - Dubosekovo - Petelino.
  35. +3
    8 February 2023 15: 29
    Quote: chenia
    You are cunningly trying to get away from the correct answer - THE SOURCE OF INFORMATION, NOT THE MAGAZINES (they can invent any damn thing), but the command. and political department 8Gv.SD.
    AND YOU PROVED IT
    Dear, I asked you 100 times earlier: when discussing with me, try not engage in demagoguery, attributing to me some conclusions that I never made.
    And even more so I asked you not to stoop to outright lies.

    You are well aware that today it has not been made public NO ONE document of the military unit of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht, dated November 1941, which contains CLEAR mention of a tank battle near the Dubosekovo junction.
    And in the published fragment of the political report of the head of the political department of the 316th rifle division to the head of the political department of the 16th A “about the heroism of the soldiers of the 1075th rifle regiment”, shown on November 16.11.1941, XNUMX, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE FIGHT NEAR DUBOSEKOVO and even the word DUBOSEKOVO is not mentioned.

    So tighten the bridle on the thick neck of your fantasy hi
    1. 0
      8 February 2023 16: 27
      Quote: Lewww
      attributing to me some conclusions,

      That's how you draw conclusions, they say you need to show real heroes. not fictional ones. And at that time they were in the 8th Guards. SD they were. But vile journalists discredited them and slipped them a fictional feat ..
      I, and you too (well, it happened, although you didn’t notice) argue that the source of information about the feat is not the fiction of the correspondents, but the information provided by the command and political department of the 8Gv.SD.
      That's all for now.
      And the fact that Koroteev almost doubled (Krivitsky definitely doubled) the loss of tanks by the Germans in this area is unambiguous. And everything else as they said in the headquarters. true truth.
      Quote: Lewww
      which contains a CLEAR mention of a tank battle near the Dubosekovo junction.


      No, there is a clear mention of the line from which the Germans launched a new offensive (2, 5 hours after they took Petelino) and for some reason it is 1,5 km SOUTHERN.. It's strange, after all, and this is not a railroad tracker that can be corrected based on the results of the battles for the day, this is a report to a higher headquarters (5 AK). And how is the line going? Surely Dubosekovo is not visible?
  36. -3
    8 February 2023 15: 39
    Author, why are you operating here supposedly with documents and facts.
    You need to be brought under the article! There is a blackening of the army.
    Divorced people like you, then the earth is flat, then there was no Napoleon!
    Maybe there was no war with Nazi Germany????
    Stop rewriting for yours, it is not known what interests the story is.
    At a meeting, the face of a person like you would be polished with shoe polish. am
  37. +2
    8 February 2023 15: 53
    Quote: ort
    But do you believe that one Hartman knocked out 360 aircraft, and one Wittman - 140 tanks?
    Colleague, I would be grateful if you would not write your conjectures in the thread about what exactly I think or do not think, but focus on the content of the published article.
    Hell, I (to my shame) don't even know who Hartman and Wittman are wink

    Quote: ort
    Heh ... heh ... it's just about you, Mr. Tyurin! The fact is that today you are protected by law, no matter what nonsense you decide to carry,
    dear, once again I urge you to curb your emotions.
    If you think that there are inaccuracies in the published article (which is quite likely) - highlight them with direct quotation and try to reasonably refute them.
    And I'm not interested in discussing your free fantasies. hi
    1. -2
      8 February 2023 16: 13
      Quote: Lewww
      if you didn’t write your speculations in the thread about what exactly I think

      I asked a question. Do not try to attribute to me what is not.
      Quote: Lewww
      If you think that there are inaccuracies in the published article

      Don't pretend to be imbecile. I'm talking about motivation. The fact that modern state policy is aimed precisely at discrediting the Soviet system. This is quite clearly stated by the current law N 1761-I, which I mentioned. . And in such conditions, trusting your creativity is simply stupid, No matter how hard you try to "be objective". You, how to say "that part of the whole, which even trying to do good, does evil" Refer to the legislation of the Russian Federation - "free fantasies? Weak ... Mr. Tyurin, I thought you were more solid in your statements ....
  38. +1
    8 February 2023 15: 56
    Quote: sagitovich
    Author, why are you operating here supposedly with documents and facts.
    You need to be brought under the article!
    well, here's another one
    About people like you, I wrote in my article:
    Moreover, people do not even like those researchers who are rather cautiously trying to hint to them that, perhaps, some ideas that have developed in their minds about individual battles of the Great Patriotic War are false, and such obviously improbable events, most likely, did not exist in reality.
  39. +3
    8 February 2023 16: 00
    Quote: sagitovich
    Divorced people like you, then the earth is flat, then there was no Napoleon!
    Maybe there was no war with Nazi Germany????
    What is your purpose in asking me this question?
    To demonstrate that your emotions completely destroyed the ability to think sensibly? hi
  40. +2
    8 February 2023 16: 11
    Quote: Ruyter-57
    oh, the question arises, for those who remain who want to know the real story, where to look for it? Name the life-giving source of "real history"!
    The real story of how some kind of battle took place should be sought in the reporting documents of the KA military unit and the Wehrmacht describing this battle, and through their careful analysis and comparison of information, build a version of how probably events took place.
    Moreover, it is useful to start the study not from the day when this battle took place, but 7-10 days earlier, i.e. understand the dynamics of events.
    And (which is important) at the very beginning of the study, carefully study the terrain in the battle area based on detailed maps of 39-41.
    This is my personal understanding of the methodology from my own research experience.
    1. Fat
      -1
      8 February 2023 16: 46
      Dear author. Dare! Your style and conviction inspire me with a bit of envy. However, do not take on the "crushing of ideals." If you can't handle it, Not every your thesis is indisputable, which means you will find "haters"
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna said exactly - the legend - to be! Regardless of the investigation and investigations ... This is already a "question of faith", which is completely different ....
    2. 0
      9 February 2023 10: 57
      Quote: Lewww
      The real story of how some kind of battle took place should be sought in the reporting documents of the KA military unit and the Wehrmacht describing this battle, and through their careful analysis and comparison of information, build a version of how the events most likely occurred .

      Yeah ... because without comparison it may turn out that according to the documents, even on the same side in the same area at the same time there were two completely different battles. smile
      EMNIP, Ulanov had a post about parsing the liberation of the same city jointly by infantry and tankers. According to the documents of the infantry, they liberated the city, and the tankers are mentioned a couple of times. According to the documents of the tankers, it was they who knocked out the Germans from the same places in the city, and the infantry provided something there. Parallel realities given to us in the sensations from the documents. smile
      I suggested in the comments that there was also a third parallel reality of German documents, in which the Germans repelled our attack, but were later forced to leave their positions due to the straightening of the front line. smile
  41. +2
    8 February 2023 16: 28
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Do you think that this was actually the case?

    I thought that the phrase "erroneous in terms of the composition of the participants in the event" should have excluded such a question.
    Colleague, try to clearly articulate what exactly is the essence of your claims to the publication.
    I have no desire to guess your hints hi

    And I asked you a question earlier: are you really sure that the 28 people listed in Krivitsky’s article on 16.11.41/18/800 took the battle with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less) Fritz, did not let the tanks through their line, and as a result all died?
    Will the answer follow, or is it all gone?
    1. -1
      8 February 2023 17: 22
      Will the answer follow, or is it all gone?

      I'm at a loss - you are quoting my answer to this question at the beginning of your post.
      I have no desire to guess your hints

      If you don’t invent them, then you don’t have to guess))
      By the way, the further you plunge into the "search for historical truth", the worse the overall picture with the objectivity of the search comes out. For example, you are using this
      And in the published fragment of the political report of the head of the political department of the 316th rifle division to the head of the political department of the 16th A “on the heroism of the soldiers of the 1075th rifle regiment”, shown on 16.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE FIGHT NEAR DUBOSEKOVO and even the word DUBOSEKOVO is not mentioned

      as a counterargument to the opponent. Although in the same topic you are using a document containing evidence of the battle on November 16 near Dubosekovo. How strange it looks.
      PS It is much more convenient to communicate if you click on the "reply" button so that the structure of the dialogue is respected, and not a continuous stream of messages.
  42. +2
    8 February 2023 16: 53
    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    Gastello, Matrosov, 28 Panfilov's men ... of course, something embellished somewhere, but the feat of the defenders of Moscow is undeniable, even if suddenly there were no 28 Panfilov's men, exactly as they are described ..
    And who questions the exploits of the defenders of Moscow, as well as Gastello and Matrosov? belay
  43. -2
    8 February 2023 17: 04
    Well, why should Krivitsky be punished, on what basis? Based on several pieces of paper that appeared almost 70 years after the events at the Dubosekovo junction? These papers were made public by Mr. Mironenko S.E., this paper did not pass any examination, but for some reason they prevail over the point of view of tens and hundreds of honored people, including: Marshal G.K. Zhukov, and Marshal K.K. Rokossovsky and many other. As for Krivitsky, he was also a contemporary of the events and, to a certain extent, a participant in them (after all, he fought not just anywhere, but on the Western Front), he was also in the Panfilov division and could get information from the first hands Well, some individual roughnesses (not all 28 Panfilov's men died) do not say anything: this is inevitable in any publication.
  44. +1
    8 February 2023 17: 06
    Quote: chenia
    Quote: Lewww
    attributing to me some conclusions,

    This is how you draw conclusions
    you are again engaged in demagoguery, attributing statements to me, a cat. I did not do it.
    In the article, I did not draw conclusions whether there was a fight at Dubosekovo, but only cited the conclusion of the prosecutor's office and showed how the myth of 28 Panfilov heroes was born and consolidated in the Soviet press

    Quote: chenia
    I am yes and you too (well, it happened, although you did not notice) approvethat the source of information about the feat is not the fiction of correspondents, but information submitted by the command and political department of the 8Gv.SD.
    here you are once again inventing some kind of statement in order to attribute its authorship to me.
    Я not argued what exactly served as a source of information for newspapermen to write articles. I just noticed that in Ivanov's article "... some echoes information contained in the Report of the head of the political department of the 316th rifle division to the head of the political department of the 16th A “on the heroism of the soldiers of the 1075th rifle regiment”, shown on 16.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX. ".
    But in general, the data contained in the Report allow us to conclude that the battles of the rifle companies of the 1075th regiment on this day did not develop as described by Ivanov. Those. he clearly did not read this report, and no one would have shown it to him.

    And where he (as well as other newspapermen) took the published information is not known for certain.
    But there is a verdict of the prosecutor's check: the battle of 28 Panfilov's men described in the press FICTION

    You, as usual, instead of carefully reading and understanding what is written, you begin to invent some kind of your own fantasies in order to then attribute their authorship to me
  45. +2
    8 February 2023 17: 10
    Quote: chenia
    Quote: Lewww
    which contains a CLEAR mention of a tank battle near the Dubosekovo junction.


    No, there is a clear mention of the line from which the Germans launched a new offensive (2, 5 hours after they took Petelino) and for some reason this is 1,5 km SOUTH
    Colleague, I have already suggested to you 100 times to stop your attempts to pull an owl on the globe and instead learn to take the information written in the documents literally, and not to misinterpret them and not to speculate in order to prove the plausibility of their illusions in this way.

    And already 100 times I turned to you with a request: bring me at least one reporting document of the military units of the KA or the Wehrmacht, dated November 1941, in which the word DUBOSEKOVO and verbatimthat 16.11. some kind of cf. 1075 sp fought a battle with German tanks at this siding.
    Will you bring such a document, or will our discussion again end in demagogy?
    1. -1
      8 February 2023 17: 29
      wherein the word would be written DUBOSEKOVO and verbatim stated that 16.11. some kind of cf. 1075 sp fought a battle with German tanks at this siding.

      The requirement of "verbatimity" is an extremely primitive manipulation.
      1. Fat
        0
        8 February 2023 17: 59
        Timur hi Every day we manipulate the consciousness of people close to us: "Beloved, give me to this chicken - that little fork over there ...." for example. Every day, every hour since birth People are manipulated and in addition every newborn is a manipulator....
        It is very important to understand once and for all that any interaction between intelligent and not very intelligent is "manipulation"... fellow
        We guys are trying to "rule" the wishes of our beloved girlfriends, beloved girlfriends successfully rule the "cool" guys... et cetera...
    2. 0
      8 February 2023 19: 07
      Quote: Lewww
      learn to take the information written in the documents literally

      Literally speaking.
      Well get
      "... through Lama to the right of Nelidovo "[/ B]
      Do you recognize? Let me remind you of Hoppe's problem .. Literally
      And this is clearly through the positions of the 2nd platoon of the 4th company.
      BUT " .... Railway crossed At Nelidovo and to the right..,,,
      Chatting about Dubosekovo, you need to know a little about tactics - the position of the platoon, this is up to 300 m of the front., And not directly at the siding.

      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
      I asked you a question earlier: are you really sure that the 28 people listed in Krivitsky’s article on 16.11.41/18/800 took the fight with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less)

      HA. Learn to take it literally. Where is this written?
      And if it is written then ... this is not only the merit of the 2nd platoon. Well, literally. And do not strain a person, read the document yourself.
      By the way, Krivitsky (in the second article) writes about 14 tanks, and then (the second attack. No ammunition. Everyone dies, the hero blows up the goose of tanks and ten tanks are on fire. That is, it is reliable only about 14 tanks (with a hint that in the second the attack was also knocked out.. This is in the first article about 18 tanks being carried out. And Koroteev has 800, and this is already a battle of the regiment that came to the rescue - LITERALLY ..
      So. that do not fool a person if you yourself do not know.
      And to my question, who is the source of information about the combat journalists or the command and political personnel of the division, you did not answer.

      [b] And Hoppe DID NOT PASS A PLOT, so there is no shit about the actions of his subgroup in ZhBD BG 1 (where everything is recorded retroactively) until 10.00.

      And I had to organize a second attack from the positions I indicated (where Dubosekovo is also clearly visible. LITERALLY ... SEE the report in 5 AK.
  46. +1
    8 February 2023 17: 35
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    as a counterargument to the opponent. Although in the same topic you are using a document containing evidence of the battle on November 16 near Dubosekovo. How strange it looks.
    this looks like your demagogy - in this thread I did not use the document containing evidence of the battle on November 16 at Dubosekovo - you liked it hi

    And I'll repeat my question again:
    I asked you a question earlier: are you really sure that the 28 people listed in Krivitsky’s article on 16.11.41/18/800 took the fight with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less) Fritz, did not let the tanks through their line, and as a result, all died?
    Will the answer follow, or is it all gone?
    ??
    1. -1
      8 February 2023 17: 47
      in this topic, I did not use a document containing evidence of the battle on November 16 at Dubosekovo - you imagined it

      I dreamed that you repeatedly mentioned the certificate of the military prosecutor's office?
      And once again I will repeat the question asked to you

      For what? Is my answer to this question not enough for you?
      1. 0
        8 February 2023 19: 12
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        For what? Is my answer to this question not enough for you?

        You can. send him away. Krivitsky does not have such articles in his articles. And Koroteev 800 and three tanks are the merit of the regiment that came to the rescue .. Well, something like that.
  47. +1
    8 February 2023 17: 38
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    The requirement of "verbatimity" is an extremely primitive manipulation.
    this is a generally accepted requirement when conducting discussions by historians, usually perceived by dreamers and demagogues "with hostility" laughing
    1. -1
      8 February 2023 17: 43
      this is a generally accepted requirement in the conduct of discussions by historians

      Really?
      Verbatimity is a requirement for citing a document. And not to the fact that if there is something verbatim in the document, then the thesis put forward is not true.
  48. +1
    8 February 2023 17: 50
    Quote: Andrey A
    These papers were made public by Mr. Mironenko S.E., this paper did not pass any examination, but for some reason they prevail over the point of view of tens and hundreds of honored people, including: Marshal G.K. Zhukov, and Marshal K.K. Rokossovsky
    dear, you are too poorly informed about the subject on which you speak so boldly.
    What do you know about the fight 1075 sp 16.11.?
    There are many documents (both the Red Army and the Wehrmacht) that make it possible to recreate the course of the battle of 1075 at this turn with acceptable accuracy. And today, their totality allows us to conclude that at times. There was definitely no tank battle in Dubosekovo.
    The only question to be discussed is whether there was a regular battle using only small arms
    1. 0
      8 February 2023 19: 17
      Quote: Lewww
      There was definitely no Dubosekovo tank battle

      Well, yes. Where did 2 platoons get tanks from?
      Again. New masterpiece. A - tanks in the first echelon, and infantry in the second. Well, it's from the past.
      When you use terms, then you know they have a certain meaning (you still do not understand).
  49. 0
    8 February 2023 17: 58
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    And once again I will repeat the question asked to you

    For what? Is my answer to this question not enough for you?
    Be so kind - tell me the time of the post where you gave the answer to the question asked to you 3 times:
    Are you really sure that the 28 people listed in Krivitsky’s article on 16.11.41/18/800 fought with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less) Fritz, did not let the tanks through their line, and in the end everyone died?
    I did not find your answer, so I look forward to your hint where he hid. request

    Verbatimity is a requirement for citing a document.
    not only to quoting, but also to its perception, as well as to its subsequent retelling, even not by direct quotation.
    For example, if in some operating summary it is indicated that 16.11. there was a battle near Petelino, then the literal perception means that the battle was near Petelino, and not near Dubosekovo, even though these points are not far from each other
    1. 0
      8 February 2023 18: 35
      looking forward to your clue where he hid

      This already looks like a farce. The time of the message containing the answer to your question is 15:28, the time of your message, where you yourself quote my answer to your question, is 16:28
      For example, if in some operating summary it is indicated that 16.11. there was a battle near Petelino, then the literal perception means that the battle was near Petelino, and not near Dubosekovo, even though these locations are close to each other

      winked
      A LITERAL perception of the charter will tell you about the WIDTH OF THE DEFENSE STRIP of a particular military formation. Which is such that if the battle is at Petelino (or Nelidovo), then it is also at Dubosekovo. Therefore, quoting you, do not engage in demagoguery.
      1. 0
        8 February 2023 19: 23
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        A LITERAL perception of the charter

        And he read BU on the beach, said nothing complicated .. Be indulgent to him. I remember spitting out such masterpieces, by the way tank battle one of them.
  50. 0
    8 February 2023 18: 59
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    This already looks like a farce. The time of the message containing the answer to your question is 15:28,
    it really looks like a farce, and a farce performed by you.
    My question was:
    Are you really sure that the 28 people listed in Krivitsky’s article on 16.11.41/18/800 fought with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less) Fritz, did not let the tanks through their line, and in the end everyone died?


    And you in post 15.28 deigned to write:
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    The certificate just as literally confirms the acceptance of the unequal battle by the 4th company on November 16 on the line Nelidovo - Dubosekovo - Petelino.


    Well, where is the answer to my question about your confidence / uncertainty in the historicity of the newspaper battle? ??????

    Moreover, the certificate does not confirm the acceptance of an unequal battle by the 4th company on November 16 on the line Nelidovo - Dubosekovo - Petelino.
    It just states that
    The 4th company of the 1075th Infantry Regiment, in which 28 Panfilov Heroes were born, occupied the defense of Nelidovo-Dubosekovo-Petelino.
    On November 16, 1941, the enemy, having forestalled the offensive of our units, around 8 o'clock in the morning, with large forces of tanks and infantry, went over to the offensive.
    As a result of battles under the influence of superior enemy forces The 1075th Infantry Regiment suffered heavy losses and withdrew to a new defensive line.
    For this withdrawal of the regiment, the commander of the regiment KAPROV and the military commissar MUHOMEDYAROV were removed from their positions
    And where exactly the fights took place and what character they had, the prosecutors did not establish.
    if the battle is at Petelino (or Nelidovo), then it is also at Dubosekovo.
    colleague, I have no desire to compete with you in the art of verbiage, it is obviously clear that I will lose hi

    By the way, I can confirm that Petelino had a tank battle, you can conclude on this basis that this is the same battle at times. Dubosekovo - good luck! love
    1. 0
      9 February 2023 09: 50
      The time of messages is put down depending on your time on the PC, if you see that someone is writing, for example, at night - the person is just from a different time zone, and not suffering from insomnia. This, too, to the question of the literal perception of information lol
      That's why I wrote that you yourself quoted my answer, I thought that you could figure it out in your messages if anything. Here it is
      Do you think that this was actually the case?

      I thought that the phrase "erroneous in terms of the composition of the participants in the event" should have excluded such a question.

      Moreover, the certificate does not confirm the acceptance of an unequal battle by the 4th company on November 16 on the line Nelidovo - Dubosekovo - Petelino.
      It just states that

      1) When one of the parties has superior forces, then the battle ... is unequal.
      2) On the next sheet of information, did you decide not to notice the words of Smirnova about the battle at Dubosekovo?
      colleague, I have no desire to compete with you in the art of verbiage, it is obviously clear that I will lose

      Well, this goes without saying, everything is according to the canons, the last argument is the clarification of the personal qualities of the opponent.
  51. 0
    8 February 2023 19: 26
    Quote: chenia
    Literally speaking.
    Well get
    "...through Lama to the right of Nelidovo"[/b]
    Do you recognize? Let me remind you of Hoppe's problem .. Literally
    And this is clearly through the positions of the 2nd platoon of the 4th company.
    Colleague, I noticed a long time ago that you have problems with the ability to perceive what is written in documents literally, so I’ll repeat the same question, cat. previously asked you 100 times:
    I have already addressed you 100 times with a request: give me at least one reporting document from the military units of the spacecraft or the Wehrmacht, dated November 1941, in which the word DUBOSEKOVO would be written and it would be stated verbatim that 16.11. Some 1075th rifle regiment was fighting German tanks at this junction.
    Will you bring such a document, or will our discussion again end in demagogy?

    I repeat: I'm not interested in your fantasies, I build my versions based on documents. And for now I no document was found military units of the KA or Wehrmacht, dated November 1941, in which the word DUBOSEKOVO would be written and it is stated verbatim that 16.11. Some 1075th rifle regiment was fighting German tanks at this junction.
    On the contrary, Dozens of documents describing the battles in the defensive sector of the 1075th joint venture pass over this battle in complete silence.

    Therefore, you can stubbornly direct German tanks to storm positions at once. Dubosekovo, as if the success of the battle for Moscow depends on the success of this battle, but just don’t lie that this is written verbatim in German documents - don’t pass off your fantasies as documentary information
  52. 0
    8 February 2023 19: 40
    Quote: chenia
    Well, yes. Where did 2 platoons get tanks from?
    Again. New masterpiece. A - tanks in the first echelon, and infantry in the second. Well, it's from the past.
    Have you decided to use your favorite tactic - arguing with hints?
    Well, well hi
    And refrain from your unfounded statements that I allegedly don’t know military terminology
    1. 0
      8 February 2023 23: 03
      Quote: Lewww
      argue with hints?

      For tank battle. it is necessary to have tanks on both sides. Well, something like this. Kolobanov and column T-38, Prokhorovka, etc.
      Quote: Lewww
      The exact number of destroyed tanks was no longer given.

      And 800 people. What did you attribute this to the platoon?
      Quote: Lewww
      I didn’t notice this question - ask it again,

      Fine. Where did the information about the battle of 1075 joint venture with details come from?
      If the first article was published almost a week earlier than Koroteev’s.
  53. +1
    8 February 2023 20: 26
    Quote: chenia
    By the way, Krivitsky (in the second article) writes about 14 tanks, and then (the second attack. No ammunition. Everyone dies, the hero blows up the goose of tanks and ten tanks are on fire. That is, it is reliable only about 14 tanks (with a hint that in the second the attack was also knocked out.. This is in the first article about 18 tanks being carried out. And Koroteev has 800, and this is already a battle of the regiment that came to the rescue - LITERALLY ..
    So. that do not fool a person if you yourself do not know.
    It seems like you didn't read my post. There it is written verbatim about Krivitsky’s second publication:
    The exact number of destroyed tanks was no longer given.
    Well, what’s unclear here?
    And to my question, who is the source of information about the combat journalists or the command and political personnel of the division, you did not answer.
    I didn’t notice such a question - ask it again, just formulate it clearly so that it is clear the first time you read it
  54. -1
    8 February 2023 21: 17
    Everything is clear, the United States won the Great Patriotic War. But we only know how to write in newspapers and go to parades.
  55. +3
    8 February 2023 22: 36
    Quote: chenia
    I remember spitting out such masterpieces, by the way, a tank battle is one of them.
    I recently listened to a video speech by S.M. Chekunov, in which he particularly explained that many people who served in the SA naively believe that the Red Army had exactly the same terminology as the SA during their service.
    And you, too, are one of the same - you are firmly convinced that in 1941 in the Red Army there were exactly the same terms and definitions as in the BU of the ground forces, introduced in 1982, or in the VES published in the 80s Yes

    What made me laugh the most was how in your fantasies you deployed the battle group of Germans advancing on Dubosekovo on 16.11.41/80/XNUMX, according to the requirements of the BU SA of the XNUMXs
    Well, it’s somehow inconvenient to even remember how in your fantasies German tanks burst through a continuous forest winked
  56. +2
    8 February 2023 23: 50
    I read the article and discussion.
    No one mentioned that the myth obscured real people who actually accomplished the very feat described in the myth.
    In 1943, near Kharkov, a platoon of Lieutenant Shironin from the 25th Guards Rifle Division held the defense for several days in a row near the railway crossing near the village of Taranovka in the Kharkov region from advancing German tanks and other armored vehicles in the amount of about 40 units. Of the platoon of 25 people, six remained alive. The Shironinites destroyed about 10 tanks and other armored vehicles, but did not let the Germans through. The entire platoon - both those who survived and those who died - received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Shironin himself became disabled.
    But the overwhelming majority in the country never knew about the feat of the Shironites, although no one seemed to be hiding it.
    But the loud inflating of the fictitious myth overshadowed the heroes who accomplished the real feat.
    Even the fact that a film was made based on this feat did not help to correct this monstrous injustice - it was Bykov’s last film, “Aty-Bati Soldiers Came.” It was precisely because of this, by the way, that the names of the characters were different.
    In the country, streets were named after the Panfilovites en masse, monuments were built to them, songs were composed, poems and books were written, stories were told in school textbooks, films were made, everyone knew the Panfilovites - and fame about the Shironinets was limited to the village of Tarnovka and streets in Kharkov and Kirov. You can imagine what it was like for them to hear every day about Panfilov’s men and know that their memory was being ignored.
    And now, as you can see, the situation has not changed much:(((
  57. 0
    9 February 2023 00: 03
    With some enviable frequency, such articles pop up. Such "digging" causes a feeling of disgust.
    Two of the four dead uncles fought in the Panfilov division. They lie in a mass grave near Moscow. There was a funeral for one. The father found out the fate of another when he was at the mass grave and he saw the full name engraved in stone already in 1974. And yes, he was listed as missing.
  58. The comment was deleted.
  59. +1
    9 February 2023 02: 25
    There are living and fallen souls

    I'll look into the rising dawn.
    The clouds closed with the horizon.
    Somewhere there is an echo of fiery years
    And friends who did not return from the war.

    Memory of the heart in the heat of attack
    It will sound like machine gun fire.
    A furious enemy was walking on the trench,
    But the infantry held out until the death.

    The fighter who remained lying
    On the ground where the mine hit,
    He bequeathed to us to defend the country
    And I didn’t know that we would reach Berlin.

    Years take us away from the war.
    There are living and fallen souls.
    Only fight at night sometimes
    A volley of Katyusha bursts into them.
  60. The comment was deleted.
    1. -1
      9 February 2023 04: 06
      The author took up the favorite activity of the Judaizing intelligentsia; he “opens the eyes” of the stupid goyim. Someday they must understand the homespun bitter truth!!

      It turns out that the stupid soldiers and officers of the Red Army believed in every fiction about some Panfilovites. And they even foolishly won the War, which doesn’t go anywhere at all. Because “in reality” they lost it....
  61. 0
    9 February 2023 09: 43
    Quote: chenia
    For tank battle. it is necessary to have tanks on both sides. Well, something like this.
    Colleague, I used the phrase “tank battle” not as a military term, but as a general literary expression meaning a battle involving tanks - tank battle.
    If you look at the events from the side of the Red Army soldiers of the 1075th rifle regiment, then we can say that some platoons located in the region of B. NIKOLSKOE, 16.11. led anti-tank the fight.
    I hope the nagging will end now?


    Quote: chenia
    And 800 people. What did you attribute this to the platoon?

    this was attributed not by me, but by Koroteev
    Quote: chenia
    Fine. Where did the information about the battle of 1075 joint venture with details come from?

    I have no idea, even in 1947-48 it was not possible to establish this, and even more so now.
    Apparently the writers heard retellings of some retellings at the headquarters of 16 A.
    For example, Ivanov’s company broke out of encirclement - these are echoes of the October battle at the storage farm. BOLYCHEVO, where the company actually seemed to be surrounded (then escaped).
    The battle of the 5th company from Koroteev’s article is apparently the events of November 15.11.41, XNUMX, but not exactly the way they happened

    Do not forget that the writers testified about events 6-7 years ago, during which time they could have already forgotten many facts about how they collected the material and come up with something that did not happen.
    Only one thing is clear: when writing articles, they gave wide scope to their imagination, and Krivitsky was especially successful in this
  62. 0
    9 February 2023 09: 54
    Quote from solar
    I read the article and discussion.
    No one mentioned that the myth obscured real people who actually accomplished the very feat described in the myth.
    We can also mention the practically unknown battles of the bloodless 1075th rifle regiment near the village of Kryukovo, where rifle battalions numbering less than 50 people stopped the fascists rushing to Moscow. Moreover, they went on attacks trying to knock them out of there.

    Before this, in October 1075, the regiment fought the hardest battles near Volokolamsk, during which the entire combat strength of the regiment was lost.
    Why did the fallen heroes remain nameless and the battles unknown to anyone?
    Instead of finding out and bringing the truth to readers, unscrupulous newspapermen hung around army headquarters and made up fairy tales
  63. +1
    9 February 2023 10: 06
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Because if we do not carefully rid history of myths ourselves, then the good revisionist uncles will do it for us. Which, having broken the bricks of myths and legends in the foundation of the building of official history (and propaganda), will bring down the building itself.

    The key word is "carefully". In our country, “getting rid of” myths gives rise to new revisionism.
    ...As for the so-called "myth" about the Panfilovites, then what does the Panfilovites themselves have to do with it!? They fought to the death as best they could (and not 28 people, but the entire Panfilov division), and most of them died. And the fact that Ortenberg wrote nonsense, then we should make claims against him, and not Panfilov’s people...
  64. +1
    9 February 2023 10: 32
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    That’s why I wrote that you yourself quoted my answer, I thought that in your messages you could figure it out if anything.
    I couldn’t figure out the fragments of your thoughts, so I asked you Five times question:
    Are you really sure that the 28 people listed in Krivitsky’s article on 16.11.41/18/800 fought with German tanks, destroyed XNUMX of them, killed XNUMX (or a little less) Fritz, did not let the tanks through their line, and in the end everyone died?
    But there is still no DIRECT answer to this question from you.
    What's stopping you from writing?yes, I am sure"Or"no, I'm not sure"?
    Instead, you engaged in verbiage and references to your previously written vague sayings
    2) On the next sheet of information, did you decide not to notice the words of Smirnova about the battle at Dubosekovo?
    On the contrary, I decided to notice - read the article at the top more carefully.

    And in general, make it a rule that before you criticize someone’s article, first read it carefully sequentially, and not diagonally
  65. 0
    9 February 2023 10: 52
    Quote: chenia
    And the fact that Koroteev almost doubled (Krivitsky definitely doubled) the loss of tanks by the Germans in this area is unambiguous. And everything else as they said in the headquarters. true truth.
    You would also write “here is the true cross for you” and cross yourself 3 times.
    Colleague, I have repeatedly advised you: do not raise the news of a tank battle just yet. Dubosekovo into the status of religious dogma.
    This is just information that has not yet been confirmed by any document dated November 1941.

    In addition, I have already repeatedly pointed out to you (and even showed) the reporting documents of the 316th Infantry Division, which clearly states that during the three days of fighting on November 16, 17, 18 everyone 1075 sp destroyed (shot down) only 4 tanks, and they were destroyed on 18.11/XNUMX.
    But for some reason you stubbornly forget this information.

    Again, I have repeatedly pointed out to you that in German reinforced concrete vehicles the losses occurred on 16.11/1075. in the defensive sector XNUMX joint ventures are listed only TWO tanksthat were blown up by mines. There is no information about other tank losses.
    For some reason you also stubbornly forget this fact.

    So the Koroteev-Krivitskys did not multiply or divide anything, they simply, based on rumors, composed tales about a heroic battle because they were afraid to go closer to the front line to learn first-hand information about true battles and true heroes.
    It was safer to hang out at headquarters 16 A and collect retellings of retellings there
  66. The comment was deleted.
  67. +2
    11 February 2023 12: 25
    As Yu. Semenov said about the Stirlitz prototype, “it was a collective image.” There were many such battles that took place in October-November 1941 near Moscow. It is quite possible that in the flow of combat reports, events were mixed up and reached the top with inaccuracies. One thing is obvious: near Moscow at that time there was massive heroism, without loud words, otherwise the capital would not have been held. One can, of course, especially having access to archives, question the accuracy of the description of a particular combat episode in the database, but the value of such an “exposure” will be small. From thousands of battles and simple skirmishes with the advanced detachments of the Germans, it is obvious: in different sectors of the front we stood on the edge of the abyss, but we survived.
  68. 0
    11 February 2023 21: 34
    A new wave of Khrushchev-Gorbachev crap for self-denigration and smearing shit on all of us
  69. +1
    11 February 2023 23: 32
    How tired these researchers are. Why aren’t you discussing Penal Battalions, Bastards and the Last Armored Trains? Calm down and take your fagot hands off those heroes.
  70. +2
    12 February 2023 16: 57
    What kind of a bad person do you have to be to carry such a craving for “historical truth” through the years? During the war, any publication in a newspaper or mention on the radio is a desire to raise spirits in the rear and at the front, especially since the heroism of Panfilov’s men greatly contributed to the victory near Moscow. Also, without connection with these events, the newspapers pushed misinformation to the enemy. And a revision of those events and myths should be done only if there is crime or betrayal or other crimes. LEAVE THE HEROES THEIR great and imperishable PAST, even if their number was not the same and the military successes were slightly different, or the place of the battle and toponymy were not the same. Sitting in a warm place, like today's bloggers, it is easy to talk about the past from the heights of past years.
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  73. +1
    13 February 2023 20: 44
    The author is one of those who like to pick with a stick, dig up an opus, and it’s important to undress. After the words, how the Stalinist prosecutor’s office only forced everyone to incriminate themselves and others, everything fell into place
  74. -1
    13 February 2023 21: 18
    What an abomination! Shitting on the graves of soldiers is bestiality.
  75. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      15 February 2023 15: 13
      Well, if you are interested in the truth, then I can tell you that, according to the reporting documents of the headquarters of the 316th Infantry Division, in the battles of November 16.11.41, 1075, the entire XNUMXth rifle division did not knock out (destroy) a single tank.
      According to the documents of the 2nd German TD in battles on 16.11/1075. In the defensive sector of the XNUMXth rifle regiment, only TWO tanks were disabled, which were blown up by mines.
      There is not a single document from the military unit of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht, drawn up in November 41, where anti-tank battle was mentioned. Dubosekovo.
      There is a myth and there are actual historical events, and there is nothing shameful in admitting that on November 16.11.41, 1075, the battles of the XNUMXth Regiment were extremely unsuccessful and the regiment abandoned its defensive sector, suffering heavy losses (according to documents, two rifle companies were lost)

      The truth about the battles of 1941 cannot be hushed up, no matter how unpleasant it may be. It needs to be analyzed in order to learn the right lessons and not repeat the mistakes and miscalculations made later.
      Unfortunately, this truth is persistently forgotten...
  76. 0
    15 February 2023 07: 42
    Such myths have always existed. They just need them as role models. And the rest of the Red Army soldiers thought that if 28 boys could do it, then they could do it too. And they did. They broke the back of the Nazis and ended the war in the enemy’s capital.
  77. 0
    15 February 2023 16: 38
    Well, it’s clear what the author wanted to say, there was no feat of 28 Panfilov’s men, all this is an invention of Soviet propaganda. Then the question is, what was, and apparently was, in the author’s opinion, a manifestation of the greatest cowardice of the German tank crews, who were afraid of General Moroz and retreated from Moscow. Recently, this interpretation of the events of 41 has been intensively imposed by this kind of researchers, such as Shishkin, has a new manual arrived from the State Department?
  78. 0
    15 February 2023 19: 11
    Quote: Vyacheslav Rud
    Then the question is, what was, and apparently was, in the author’s opinion, a manifestation of the greatest cowardice of the German tank crews, who were afraid of General Moroz and retreated from Moscow.
    You have some kind of absurd logic: the fact that on November 16.11.1941, 1075 Panfilov’s men from the XNUMXth rifle regiment did not destroy a SINGLE TANK at Dubosekovo does not mean at all that they were all cowards and the Germans near Moscow were stopped by the Holy Spirit.

    The Germans were stopped by the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army, and the fact that 1075 joint ventures 16.11.41/XNUMX/XNUMX was defeated does not in any way detract from the great significance of the feats demonstrated by Panfilov’s men in other battles on other days.
    There is simply history, and there are myths.
    For example, the heroism of Panfilov’s men in the battles near the village of Kryukovo is history. The battle of 28 Panfilov men at Dubosekovo is a myth.

    And unfortunately there were, are and will be unscrupulous journalists who Instead of going to the front line and getting information about real heroes, they composed fairy tales without leaving the editorial office.

    That's what this publication is about
  79. 0
    16 February 2023 14: 38
    As far as I know, not all Panfilov’s men died. One actually later became a traitor to the motherland
  80. 0
    17 February 2023 13: 20
    https://www.mk.ru/social/2018/12/03/arkhiv-fsb-rassekretil-dokumenty-dokazyvayushhie-podvig-28-panfilovcev.htmlhttps://www.mk.ru/social/2018/12/03/arkhiv-fsb-rassekretil-dokumenty-dokazyvayushhie-podvig-28-panfilovcev.html
  81. 0
    17 February 2023 22: 02
    The article is a complete lie, to say the least. Some assumptions and conjectures, but with claims to some kind of analysis.
    One question to the author: “Why was this necessary?”
    1. 0
      18 February 2023 19: 50
      Author's response: to tell How the legend of 28 Panfilov heroes was created in the Soviet press

      I hope the answer is clear?
      It was not just made up out of thin air, but from materials in Soviet newspapers + information from a certificate-report from the military prosecutor’s office.
      The article is intended for a thinking reader, capable of at least reading it from the first to the last word

      Don’t just read the title and immediately start writing a comment
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    1. 0
      29 March 2023 14: 24
      PeeCee. I'll add the fry. Now is not the time to “investigate” and publish all this charomancy. Even if something was embellished a little during the Second World War, it was, excuse me, to raise morale and confidence in victory. And what kind of blizzard was Goebbels driving there? And everyone believes him even now. About all sorts of Rudels, the blond Luftwaffe knight Hartmann, the main tank crews of the whole world, Carius and Wittmann. About a machine gunner in Omaha, who killed a hundred thousand Americans and lost his mind. It’s just all nonsense and absolutely out of time. By the way, learn from the elves from the city on the hill: as soon as they try to make up something about their terrible losses, they immediately face them down and are ridiculed by everyone. On the contrary, you are trying to humiliate the feat of the Soviet people in the Second World War.
  83. 0
    April 17 2023 20: 49
    The author of this opus - read it, comrades, I think it won’t hurt you either
    https://topwar.ru/188978-dubosekovo-anatomija-podviga.html
    1. 0
      April 18 2023 12: 16
      The author of the article https://topwar.ru/188978-dubosekovo-anatomija-podviga.html is a crazy dreamer who freely interprets the information given in the documents to which he refers.
      Which I wrote to him about several times.
      Moreover, he has already given up some fantasies (in particular, how German tanks rushed towards Dubosekovo through a forest and a ravine).
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