The lack of standard ammunition for the 2S7 "Pion" self-propelled guns forced the Armed Forces to use 203-mm shells from B-4 howitzers of the Second World War

The Ukrainian army is experiencing problems with large-caliber ammunition, this can be seen from the recent decrease in the number of artillery strikes of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Western sponsors of Kyiv are trying to rectify the situation, but only with shells of NATO calibers. NATO has almost no ammunition for weapons of the Soviet standard, except for the cleaned up arsenals of the countries of Eastern Europe.

Ukraine has not been able to build a single ammunition production plant in all the years of independence, and attempts to do this after 2014 led to the theft of allocated funds. But all these years, Kyiv traded weapons left over from the Soviet army, turning into one of the largest suppliers weapons worldwide. This also applied to ammunition. At the beginning of the special military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had a certain supply of artillery shells, but prolonged hostilities led to the depletion of arsenals.

At present, the supply companies are raking out literally the last stocks of 203 mm caliber shells for the 2S7 Pion self-propelled guns in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Moreover, it has been noticed that recently Ukrainian gunners began to use not regular ammunition, but shells from 203-mm high-power B-4 and B-4M howitzers of the Great Patriotic War times for firing from Peonies. We are talking about a 203-mm concrete-piercing projectile 53-G-620Sh.

"Peony" has the ability to shoot such ammunition, since the caliber is the same, but it is not known what consequences this may lead to. Quite recently, a number of Ukrainian and Russian Internet resources posted a video with a rupture of the barrel of a Ukrainian "Peony" during firing. It is possible that old shells or non-standard ones were used.

Kyiv has nowhere to replenish 203 mm caliber ammunition, so soon the most powerful guns in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be left without shells and will be replaced by Western guns of smaller calibers. By the way, with the presence of artillery in NATO, too, not all is well.

Comments

[Paul Siebert]

So that these reptiles shells explode more often in the breech!
And in trunks!
Seventy-year-old ammunition loves such surprises!

[The collective farm is voluntary.]

If you use an old projectile with a new fuse, then there will be no "surprises".

[Leader_Barmaleev]

If you use an old projectile with a new fuse, then there will be no "surprises".

Will definitely be. The fact is that trinitrotoluene is not the most stable substance, part of it is oxidized, nitro groups in the presence of a minimum amount of water (and it always exists) and oxygen can give very serious radicals that can react both with TNT and with the shell of the projectile, and if the lacquer layer is damaged from time to time, then iron nitrates can give substances spontaneously igniting upon impact with organic matter. The acceleration of the projectile in the barrel reaches 120 g, which leads to the explosion of the projectile in the barrel, regardless of the presence of any fuse. So more surprises - good and different

[The collective farm is voluntary.]

I do not agree with you. If things were the way you write, then the ammunition would have a strictly observed shelf life (shelf life) and not a single sane lump. batteries would not allow them to be used on firing.

[stankow]

Where are you going? What you bring is what you shoot, order. Unless the descent ropes are extended by an extra 10 meters ...

[Leader_Barmaleev]

ammunition would have a strictly enforced shelf life

If you ever carried a box of shells on you (I had to), you would pay attention to a tag a little smaller than an A4 sheet, on which it is written in Russian in white: type and caliber, release date, who released it, storage and warehousing conditions , AND THE DATE OF DISPOSAL - that's right - the date after which the ammunition must be sent for disposal is written. But the whole joke of situevina - almost no one and almost never observes this.

[stankow]

Chief Barmaleev You explain the problem of old PSUs quite accurately. Just one note - the acceleration of a 203 mm projectile reaches 10 thousand g

[Leader_Barmaleev]

acceleration of a 203 mm projectile reaches 10 thousand g

Believe it or not, I was sure that I had typed 12000 on the keyboard, but I had the anti-sticky keys enabled and the artificial intelligence decided that two zeros were superfluous. Thank you for your attention

[Adrey]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

The fact is that trinitrotoluene is not the most stable substance

After the expiration date, the shells can be reloaded. The procedure is relatively simple.

[Arisaka]

So there are no factories, it is written in the article. In the field, open it with a grinder, melt TNT, pour a new one from the checkers, and then scald it in the field with argon-arc welding on tacks?

[haron]

Quote from Arisaka

So there are no factories, it is written in the article.

They started making 155 mm in September. the number is not exactly known, but in October they made more than 500. There are videos on YouTube where they show the line on the marking.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

The procedure is relatively simple.

Very tricky, especially for large calibers - melt old TNT in water, rinse with a solvent until clean, dissolve and clean the old varnish, re-varnish the inner wall, fill in new TNT and install a new fuse. In the first three stages, it can both explode and blaze, so the shells are reloaded only from complete hopelessness. They are usually recycled.

[Adrey]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

Very cunning

Not convinced . Hemorrhoids - yes. Economically unprofitable - yes, but not in war .
Which of the above processes requires high-tech equipment? Steam bath? Filling the cavity with solvent? Coating the inside with varnish? It’s certainly more difficult to fill in new TNT correctly.
Yes, the first and last processes are dangerous (the first is relatively, even in the Second World War, our fighters managed to drown potbelly stoves in dugouts with thick drafts). And yes, the fuses are stored separately and are installed immediately before loading the gun
They don’t reload shells rather for economic reasons - it’s not profitable if you have your own, smoothly functioning production. In this situation, there is absolutely no place to get 203 shells, starting production from scratch is not realistic and generally impractical (the guns are decommissioned anyway). But to reload, so that the "working" trunks would not be idle, a certain amount is possible.

[stankow]

No, if you don’t shoot them, the old steam bath shell won’t explode. Let's add reloading of the cartridge case - depressurization, removal of bundles, varnish, new capsule sleeve... Now the fuses will definitely be blown up and disposed of!

[Aaron Zawi]

In general, the fact that Ukraine did not build ammunition factories suggests that they were definitely not going to fight with anyone.

[Repellent]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

the fact that Ukraine did not build ammunition factories suggests that ...

that Ukraine didn't build anything at all..

Somehow

[avg]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

In general, the fact that Ukraine did not build ammunition factories suggests that they were definitely not going to fight with anyone.

And tell me, what did Ukraine build in general? And what about fighting ... Muscovites on the Gilyak had to walk on their own, and the Donbass children played hide and seek in the basements? And did Putin come up with the tax on the war and all the policy speeches of the bloodthirsty?

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Aaron Zawi

In general, the fact that Ukraine did not build factories for the production of ammunition.

New production plants artillery shots was not built.
But in Ukraine there is Shostka State Plant "Zvezda" in Shostka Sumy region
Producing shots for guns from 23mm to 130mm.

Since 2018 GAHK Artyom in Kyiv received a line for the production of artillery shells (shots) for the Hyacinth gun, with a promise to expand the list of manufactured ammunition up to 155mm NATO.
How these factories work today is another question ...

[Beck69]

Rather, fight with other calibers, for example 155 mm.

[private person]

It is possible that old shells or non-standard ones were used.

Or maybe just the trunks can not withstand the intensity of the fire? After all, these "Peonies" that they have that we have the youngest years of production, so 70-80s. And about all sorts of different shells, about 8 years ago, here in the VO they wrote that there are so many in the mines on the edge.

[invisible_man]

And when could they be knocked out? We even have Chechnya, but there were no wars in Ukraine. And until 2014, they practically did not engage in exercises.

[private person]

And until 2014, they practically did not engage in exercises.

The tools are sledgehammers of the mighty Union and they are 40+ years old. Yes, and starting from 14, they obviously shot more than one hundred.

[BARKAS]

B-4m shells are not very good and the old howitzer was removed from service only in 91g. and the shells were updated before that.

[rotmistr60]

Ukraine has not managed to build a single plant for the production of ammunition for all the years of independence

So it's great that I couldn't, and most importantly, I won't be able to in the future.

[75 Sergey]

I wouldn't count on it.
The West will gladly supply them with something no less deadly.

[voyaka uh]

"We are talking about a 203-mm concrete-piercing projectile 53-G-620Sh." ///
---
Duc, now both sides are raking out the last junk from the storage warehouses.
Cruise missiles X-55 arrive with weight simulators of nuclear charges. Without any explosives.
Yes, even with KVO meters 200 ...

[Bingo]

Quote: voyaka uh

Duc, now both sides are raking out the last junk from the storage warehouses.

You are trying with all your might to prove that all smart Jews left for the USA a long time ago, and what remains is that they won’t even take them to TsIPSO

For comparison, only Russian tanks produce more than the whole world put together.
PiSi: and the missiles are over. Soon we will celebrate the anniversary, as it ended.

[aszzz888]

Bingo
Today, 11: 29
NEW

+1
Quote: voyaka uh
Duc, now both sides are raking out the last junk from the storage warehouses.

You are trying with all your might to prove that all smart Jews left for the USA a long time ago, and what remains is that they won’t even take them to TsIPSO

this fluent pours on Russia for matzah. he and the like do not care that they shoot at every step, and bring down dozens. The main thing is that we, Russia, feel bad.

[voyaka uh]

"missiles - ran out" ///
---
Why do you think so?
There is mass production of missiles. Factories.

And the article was about storage warehouses.
From which they take everything.

[Bingo]

Quote: voyaka uh

And the article was about storage warehouses.
From which they take everything.

When our troops in the last assault begin to break through to the warehouses in Transnistria, where there are three times shells for the whole of Europe, sow square nests - that's when I will believe. When the fighters start complaining about "rotten" cartridges and they start issuing teaching staff - too ...
In the meantime, go and check how much missiles Iron Kumpol has enough, before you again beg from the United States, run after the answer from Iran that the entire budget has been fired, annual and defense, as it was already ... Ahtyzhesh! He doesn’t catch nichrome Geranium, as the refinery checked

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote from Bingo

For comparison, only Russian tanks produce more than the whole world put together.

Sorry, but these are new or overhauled. So many new ones. After all, since 2001 you have produced only T-90s of various modifications, and there are not so many of them in comparison with the T-72.

[Bingo]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

Sorry, but these are new or overhauled.

Everyone there has capital. That's just unlike the United States, Germany or Poland - we also produce new ones, completely from scratch. And here they are - not at all. If we count only new ones, then the whole of NATO will have zeros there

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote from Bingo

Quote: Aron Zaavi

Sorry, but these are new or overhauled.

Everyone there has capital. That's just unlike the United States, Germany or Poland - we also produce new ones, completely from scratch. And here they are - not at all. If we count only new ones, then the whole of NATO will have zeros there

It's true. New tanks have not been produced in NATO since the 90s.

[aszzz888]

voyaka uh (Alexey)
Today, 11: 06
NEW
-9
"We are talking about a 203-mm concrete-piercing projectile 53-G-620Sh." ///
---
Duc, now both sides are raking out the last junk from the storage warehouses.
Cruise missiles X-55 arrive with weight simulators of nuclear charges. Without any explosives.
Yes, even with KVO meters 200 ...

Another sloppy throw. tossed on life? The methodology is old.
pi. si. I would have stood under the KVO myself, and then I would have definitely told everyone how many meters the spread was.

[Or me]

voyaka uh (Alexey)
Today, 11: 06
NEW
-10
"We are talking about a 203-mm concrete-piercing projectile 53-G-620Sh." ///
---
Duc, now both sides are raking out the last junk from the storage warehouses.

I've already heard something like this from someone... Oh, yes, Arestovich often said that, Podolak, etc. Are rotten apples not from the same tree?

[Mazunga]

we still have sledgehammers in storage, but they sculpted them and in Kramatorsk, maybe they will also fight d-1 out, I don’t know how limited it is, but I saw the signals

[Mikhail Maslov]

How many were there, what just ended? Banderlog guns will be destroyed so that we don’t get it. And we have already switched to the NATO standard. I read the military report on Stalingrad in 43 and then the consumption of artillery ammunition 50 exceeded the consumption of cartridges 000. Now the intensity of artillery is still higher, shells, repairs, means of transportation, fuel. Not so easy with the NATO caliber.

[PPD]

It turned out interesting.
Theft is good!
Maybe in the EU and America, they’ll also snatch something .....

[Metallurg_2]

has the ability to shoot such ammunition, since the caliber is the same

By the way, equality of calibers is not a guarantee at all. An example is the 152-mm cannon RVGK Br-2, which could only fire 152-mm projectiles made specifically for it.

[The collective farm is voluntary.]

All ballistics calculations must be recalculated when firing a non-standard projectile with a different weight. At com. guns - cancer of the brain will come out of such a situation.

[stankow]

Ballistics at the command post is "recalculated", not by the gun commander. And nothing is recalculated, they just use a different shooting table.

[The collective farm is voluntary.]

Where, in principle, can a "different" table come from, if the projectile is not standard?

[stankow]

If they brought it to the OP, it means that the data was taken by shooting at the training ground and the table was recalculated. An ordinary matter for ballisticians.

[D-Master]

Great news, the fewer shells Kyiv has, the easier it is for the guys at the front.

[Aviator_]

Ukrainian gunners began to use not regular ammunition, but shells from 203-mm howitzers of high power B-4 and B-4M during the Great Patriotic War. We are talking about a 203-mm concrete-piercing projectile 53-G-620Sh.

And what's the point of using concrete-piercing shells in defense? During the assault on the UR, it’s understandable, but here it’s not. Or are they really bad?

[saigon]

Yes, the meaning is a splash under 100 kg and how much explosives are there.
I do not want to fall in a word.

[stankow]

Some industrial buildings have stronger concrete than a bunker... So a concrete breaker will come in handy.

[Dmitry Karabanov]

Well, there is Stalinist quality - so, unfortunately, the shells will last for a long time. And all because of the traitors of the marked bear and the drunken wrestler - they left all the equipment and ammunition to the enemies!

[Nikolaevich I]

For a long time I had to read that shots for "Pion" and B-4, "Hyacinth" and other howitzers, guns D44 and D48 are DIFFERENT and do not fit each other! True, at the beginning I did not think: what's the difference? With the advent of messages "from there" about the development of shells of an "improved ballistic shape" (I forgot, fir-burners, "their" abbreviation!), I decided that the "hack" in the shells! But somehow I caught a glimpse (!) of the shells of "Hyacinth" and "Peony" ... it seems that the shells are like shells ...! Then they explained to me that the matter was in different chambers! Some are smaller, some are more! And the problems show up. when the shots are "sleeve" ("Hyacinth", D44 / 48)! But here, for example. 203 mm caliber - "capped"! But I also had to read about this caliber that "something" does not fit "something" (I don't remember: from B-4 to "Peony" or vice versa!) Well, I described the sadness of the "pro-war man in the street"! Maybe one of the "artels" will say more specifically!?

[Bogalex]

In this case, it’s not at all a matter of the difference in the volumes of the charging chambers - in this case, the outdated projectile could be used with charges from new shots (although a new problem would immediately arise here - the presence of firing tables, but this is the next, separate conversation).
The main problem with the use of shells from the B-4 in 2A44 (cannon on 2C7) is a significantly more different barrel length.
Old B-4 projectiles are designed for a shorter rifling range - on a longer barrel, the leading belt with a very high degree of probability will grind off long before exiting the channel, which will affect the ballistic characteristics and behavior of the projectile on the trajectory in the most unpredictable way. Therefore, the 620th shots in the "Pions" are not used and are not part of its ammunition load.

[Zadok]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

But the whole joke of situevina - almost no one and almost never observes this.

In 1997, the sailors of the Severstal submarine cruiser twice, in March (from the TK-13) and December, fired rockets with full ammunition under the disposal program, firing a total of 40 missiles with an expired shelf life

San Seich Bogachev would smile

[digger]

203 mm is the caliber of a heavy cruiser from World War II. I wonder if this projectile hits the Leopard -2A2 with direct fire, what will happen .... will the tank fly off?

[stankow]

The turret will fly off, the chassis will fall into pieces.