Military Review

Just an ax and nothing else

225
Just an ax and nothing else
Duel of Rotger and Sbyshka on axes. Frame from the movie "The Crusaders" (1960)



"Axe, axe, sit like a thief
and don't look out into the yard"

A child's saying during a game of hide-and-seek in the 60s

Rothger recoiled in horror and leaned back,
and at the same moment an ax flashed before his eyes,
and the blade fell with lightning speed on his right shoulder.
reached the audience's ears
only a heartbreaking cry: "Jesus! .."
Rotger took another step back
and crashed down to the ground.

Henryk Sienkiewicz "The Crusaders"

History weapons. In the previous article “Just ... “something heavy on a stick”, from the very beginning it was about the book by J. Roni Sr. “Fight for Fire” and how primitive fire hunters fought with clubs and clubs. But it was also indicated there that they already had stone axes, which, however, were not described there.

What an ordinary ax looks like, I, of course, already knew then. My grandfather chopped wood for them, and at first I thought that only such axes existed. I saw other people have axes of a completely different shape - I was very surprised. But it turned out that my case had not an ax, but a cleaver, and this is a big difference.

Then I learned that stone axes could be of several types, and even drilled (I saw them in a museum and was very surprised at how ancient people could drill through a stone). Well, then already in 1961 I had a chance to watch a color, wide-screen film "The Crusaders" based on the novel by Henryk Sienkiewicz, and I really wanted to make myself exactly the same ax as was in that movie.


"Young Knight" January 1, 1966. Surprisingly, I seemed to have a premonition of my fate and that I would have to flaunt in armor and ... write about axes with an L-shaped blade ...

But a few more years passed before, with the help of my grandmother, I managed to build myself a “knight's suit” with a shield, helmet and an ax of the shape I liked. Well, then, after 50 years, I became interested in this topic and learned a lot of interesting things.


I also really liked the ax from the movie "Alexander Nevsky" (1938). But to make an exact copy of it, even from improvised materials, has become an impossible task.

First of all, it turned out that the first stone axes were not drilled, a groove was knocked out on them, into which a fork of a branch was inserted, after which the whole structure was wrapped with strips of leather soaked in fish or hoof glue. Of course, this was not an absolute solution, but the strength of such a mount for a hunting and battle ax was quite sufficient.


The so-called "grooved axe", ca. 6000–4000 BC e. State of Illinois. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

In the Neolithic era, turned and polished axes were thought to be fixed with leather straps in a drilled lateral process of a branch. That is, upon impact, he had something to rest against with a blunt butt, and a braid protected the process from splitting. True, it was still necessary to look for such a branch with a process at a right angle and the required thickness.


Drilled stone ax from the early Bronze Age, 3rd millennium. Anatolia. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Then axes learned to drill. A wooden drill, which was rotated with a bow, pouring wet quartz sand under it, a tubular bone impaled on a wooden shaft, or even a copper pipe. Moreover, the fact that this is so can be considered proven by the finds of undrilled axes, which began to be drilled, and then for some reason they were abandoned.

Then the axes began to be cast. First, in open forms, after which the lateral process of a strong branch was also hammered into them and wrapped with leather. Then they thought of casting them in double-sided molds, and already immediately with a ready-made hole in the butt for the handle.


Bronze double ax from Crete, c. 1400–1050 BC e. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Early axes were often made double. This added weight to them and increased the service life until the next sharpening. And it was often necessary to sharpen bronze axes.


Double ax from the late Minoan period, c. 1600–1450 BC e. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

In ancient Egypt, it was the ax, along with the mace, that became the main weapon of all Egyptian infantry and even kings. They were very different in shape, but they tried not to spend a lot of metal on them. Therefore, the Egyptian axes did not have a butt, and their blade was completely flat and inserted into the cut of the handle, after which, again, it was fixed on it with leather straps soaked in resin or hoof glue.


Bronze axe, ca. 1635–1458 BC e. The Second Intermediate Period is the early New Kingdom. The blade of this battle ax is one of the earliest examples of its kind. He was found in the coffin of "guard Hai", presumably a military official. The handle was made from a branch of a tree chosen for its curvature. The manufacturing technology of such axes made it possible to save precious raw materials and reduce labor costs. The leather strap that attached the blade to the hilt fell apart from time to time and was restored in the museum based on the finds of other, better preserved specimens. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Another purely combat Egyptian axe. Middle Kingdom, XII Dynasty, c. 1981–1802 BC e. Middle Egypt, Assiut (Lykopol), Ankhef tomb (tomb 9). Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


And this is also an ax of the Middle Kingdom, and with a figurine of a monkey swinging lotus stems with flowers, ca. 1981–1640 BC e. It is obvious that he belonged to a man not simple, but with a position! Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

In Greece and Rome, axes were used as weapons, but very little. True, it was the axes (called fascia), lined with a bunch of rods, that were the ceremonial weapons of the lictors - the honor guard of important Roman officials. They were used as follows: first, a person sentenced to death was flogged with these rods, and then his head was cut off with an ax.

By the way, it was from the word fascia (bundle) that the word fascism originated, and it was fascia that became his emblem in Italy under Mussolini, and three fascias in a white circle - the emblem of the Italian Air Force.

It is interesting that, on the other hand, in Europe of the Dark Ages, a whole tribe appeared, which considered the ax almost the main weapon. These were the Franks, and the ax was called the Francisca - in their honor. It was a very peculiar weapon, which, of course, could be cut, only the Franks preferred to throw it, like an Indian tomahawk.

Each Frank was supposed to have an angon spear with a serrated tip, a Francis, a Roman-style spatu sword, a shield and a helmet. Armor - "brunia" was mainly among the leaders and was a leather jacket sheathed with iron scales. By the way, metal was then saved. That is why Francis is small in size.


Francis - the ax of the Franks - V-VI centuries. The blade is heavily corroded, but it can be seen that the blade is curved and has an elliptical hole for the hilt. Dimensions: total length - 160 mm. Weight: 425 Royal Armoury, Leeds


Francis with a restored handle. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Viking axes had a very characteristic shape. On the famous embroidery from Bayeux, which we talked about in detail here on VO, these axes, almost shoulder-high, are visible in the hands of many warriors. It is known that they fought huskerls - the guard of King Harold. The embroidery shows how a horse's head is cut with such an ax on a long handle. However, it was not very convenient to use them in close formation.

Ax X-XI centuries. Overall length: 220 mm, cutting edge width: 190 mm. Weight: 495 Royal Armoury, Leeds


"Great Chronicles of France" or "Chronicles of Saint-Denis". Approximately the middle of the XIV century. British Library, London. As you can see, although two centuries have passed, the shape of the ax has not changed at all. Only now (for some reason?) it is also used for execution. Well, in the movie "Secrets of the Burgundy Court" they also showed just such an ax


And this is what the ax for the execution of 1743 looked like. The Royal Arsenal, Leeds


Miniature from the manuscript "History of the Holy Grail", 1300-1350. National Library of France. As you can see, horsemen at that time also fought with axes. But only their shape is slightly different.

Many images of axes are also found in other miniatures, both earlier and later, which show how they were used both in labor and in battle in the Middle Ages. But not all of them show, so to speak, their combat effectiveness. That is, how successfully they "interacted" with knightly armor.

That is why the “Morgan Bible” (according to the place of its storage), or, more correctly, the “Crusader Bible” or the “Macievsky Bible”, in this regard, the source is completely unique. Apparently, the artist who designed it was no stranger to military affairs, because he very accurately depicted on his miniatures all those little things that only a warrior could know. After all, it shows how people take off chain mail, and how they put them on, and what they have under them, plate collars are accurately depicted, and the horses even have visible wounds on their sides from spurs!

And here it is just shown how helmets are cut with axes (as well as swords, by the way!) and all sorts of other terrible wounds are inflicted. Judging by the miniatures in this manuscript (as well as in the Manes Codex manuscript), we can say that both the ax and the sword cut the then helmets and chain mail easily! And again - all the axes in the "Bible ..." have the characteristic shape of a crescent.


Miniature from the Maciejowski Bible, 1240–1250. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum. New York


Miniature from the manuscript "From the founding of the city", 1400-1410. National Library of France, Paris. There are as many as five axes, including one real reed ...


It is interesting that blows with an ax were applied not only with a blade, but also with a butt! Miniature from the manuscript "From the founding of the city", 1400-1410. National Library of France, Paris

Well, what kind of battle axes were already used in the New Age, we will tell you next time ...
Author:
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 8 December 2022 05: 21
    +7
    The ax is my favorite tool in construction... well-chosen according to the hand and the geometry of your body, the tool becomes, as it were, its continuation.
    Loved the Scandinavian axes... they look like works of art.
    Thanks Vyacheslav for this article hi... I look forward to continuing ... it would be nice to describe and show about the competition of lumberjacks with their axes ... it's great they wave this tool there.
    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 07: 32
      +6
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      it would be nice to describe and show about the competition of lumberjacks with their axes ... it's great they wave this tool there.

      Or maybe you will try yourself as an author, if you know about it (or you can find material on the Web). The fact is that it is not very profitable for me to write articles about the peaceful purpose of various objects, so to speak.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 8 December 2022 07: 55
        +3
        Alas, dear Vyacheslav is not endowed with the talent of a writer ... to each his own ... I like to work with my hands more than with my head. request
        I tried to write ... I read my writings and realized I would never rise to your heights. hi
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 09: 08
          +2
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Tried to write

          It's a pity. Your comments are good. And you can actually learn to write, if you don’t freak out and don’t rush. Two pages a day - 2-3 times a week in the evening and ... learn.
      2. insafufa
        insafufa 8 December 2022 14: 38
        +1
        And where is the coinage, and where are the battle axes of the Turks, they were all small in size, designed for equestrian combat.
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 15: 17
          +3
          Sorry, dear Insaf. It just pulls in rhyme to swear ... where ... in ... "Karaganda". Well, is it really not clear that sticking both axes and coinage into one material is absurd. Then: West is West, and East is East. It is possible to mix sour with square only under certain conditions. Next... the amount of text. More than 10000-14000 text is not readable. Maximum pictures - 20. And since not everything "fits", then there will be a continuation ... This is obvious. And then after all, someone may ask: Where is the tomahawk? He's also an axe. And what will the article become?
          1. insafufa
            insafufa 8 December 2022 16: 15
            +2
            It’s just that here in the article everything was first thrown into a mess with axes BC and on you Viking axes at the end it’s not logical like that
            1. kalibr
              8 December 2022 18: 14
              +1
              Quote: insafufa
              It’s just that here in the article everything was first thrown into a mess with axes BC and on you Viking axes at the end it’s not logical like that

              Correctly! And it would be even more illogical. Now I have finished and sent for moderation a more logical and solid material. By the way, here at VO there was my article about the "culture of battle axes".
              1. insafufa
                insafufa 9 December 2022 13: 08
                -1
                AAA Semyon Semenych, your article is good in itself, so it would be nice to read and remember it systematically by era, I’m waiting for an article from you with a detailed analysis of medieval axes. What I like about Klma Zhukov is that everything is simply and intelligibly divided into eras. That is why his articles are remembered.
                1. zenion
                  zenion 9 December 2022 15: 03
                  0
                  No one paid attention to the fact that in the photographs all the axes are under the left hand. Those that are under the right, those without ax handles. Like this. There are more right-handers than left-handers in the world. And from the side of the text, it is impossible to take an ax in the right hand, it is not visible.
                2. kalibr
                  10 December 2022 06: 34
                  0
                  Quote: insafufa
                  What I like about Klma Zhukov is that everything is simply and intelligibly divided into eras.

                  He has the arsenal of the Hermitage at his fingertips. And I have to get photos in museums and only use those where there is a mark "public domain". And if there is no photo, what's the point of writing? "Here it is bent, and the butt is flat." You will not like this either ... "For lack of a stamp, we write in simple!"
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 10: 33
      +3
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      it would be nice to describe and show about the competition of lumberjacks with their axes ... it's great they wave this tool there.

      I understand that we are quite loosely interpreting the relevance of some topics to the general theme of the resource, but it’s hard to attach “lumberjack competitions” here somehow ... smile
      1. kor1vet1974
        kor1vet1974 8 December 2022 11: 59
        +3
        but it is somehow difficult to fasten the "competitions of lumberjacks" here.
        Got used to hands, axes .. (c) smile
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 15: 36
          +1
          Quote: kor1vet1974
          Used hands, axes

          Only the heart is naughty to doctors, and the oriole sings in the evenings!
          1. zenion
            zenion 9 December 2022 15: 06
            -1
            The Volga does not sing in the evenings, she growls, and Belzin with butter also wants to sleep. A beautiful picture was, a long time ago - "Where the Volga merged with the Kura." Say in Karkodil.
  2. VicktorVR
    VicktorVR 8 December 2022 05: 26
    +3
    With a butt - it is clear why, it is more difficult to cause serious harm to a person in armor and underarmor with an elongated, semicircular blade than with a butt.

    They also made a spike on the butt, just to pierce the armor or is it another weapon?
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 8 December 2022 05: 50
      +5
      The technique of hitting with an ax is somewhat reminiscent of a hit by a karate or kung fu player, when you concentrate the hit and its power is not in the swing, but at a certain point where you strike ... this is clearly seen when you break knotty logs of firewood ... you relax a little and suffer with them.
      Moreover, the whole body from the heels of the feet to the tips of the fingers should participate in the concentration of the blow ... then you split even the most difficult logs. smile
      1. kalibr
        8 December 2022 09: 15
        +7
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        relax a little and suffer with them.

        How I loved chopping wood as a child... First, my grandfather chopped it. We hired only sawers, and for one cut. It was cheaper, and then they cut the chopped firewood themselves as needed. Dry. From the barn. My grandfather had a cleaver, a sledgehammer and wedges. With all this, it was possible to break the strongest and knotty stumps. Summer, the sun, smells of birch, and you drive wedges into the tree. The tree is cracking, and you zhah-zhah. I've been doing this for about 10 years. And then he came to the village. Firewood was delivered free of charge. Well, he sawed them with his wife. They sawed ... she - "And who will prick them for us?" This is where I showed myself. Moreover, it is surprising how chopping firewood strengthens some ... "feelings". Then, after 91 years, I thought - maybe open a hospital for "lower problems" and treat ... chopping firewood, and sell firewood to bars (for fireplaces) and give to the poor citizens. But... no medical degree.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 8 December 2022 09: 35
          +6
          Moreover, it is surprising how chopping firewood strengthens some ... "feelings"
          Celentano will not agree with you.)))
          1. kalibr
            8 December 2022 12: 30
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Celentano will not agree with you

            I remember this movie, but it seems to be different for everyone.
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 10: 44
          +8
          Quote: kalibr
          Summer, the sun, smells of birch, and you drive wedges into the tree.

          Strange people you have there in Penza ... We always chop firewood in the winter, when the chocks are frozen and scatter themselves. And in the summer, the firewood must dry in order to go into the firebox next winter.
          And chopping wood in the summer is unbearably hot.
          Cleaver - yes - a chic tool. But I never used wedges - I always coped like that. The main thing here is that the main thing is to correctly install the chock and choose the place of impact. One, two, three - and everything shatters with a ring. smile
          1. kor1vet1974
            kor1vet1974 8 December 2022 12: 00
            +2
            One, two, three - and everything shatters with a ring.
            I sharpened my ax, firebrands, a full yard .. (c) smile
          2. kalibr
            8 December 2022 12: 35
            +4
            Dear Mikhail! It was the same in 1964-1974. And then everyone did it. They sawed and pricked until 10.00 in the morning. When everything was split, the women were transferred to the woodpile. With us, they stretched like walls of a fortress throughout the yard and it was interesting to play war games behind them. In August, all this dry as gunpowder was removed into the barn, stuffing it to the ceiling. And wedges were used because grandfather bought hemp. They were cheaper than straight trunks.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 13: 21
              +6
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, we also chopped firewood in the 60s and 70s ... smile Of course, I don’t remember this personally, but I’m sure that little has changed in the 80s.
              In autumn, firewood was brought, usually meters, dumped in the yard. First of all, they sawed them - in the 60s with a hand saw on goats (the saw still hangs in the barn), then with a chainsaw. Chocks piled up and waited for winter. In winter they chopped (usually, I did this during the winter holidays) and so chopped firewood lay in a pile until spring.
              under the snow. In the spring, when the heating season ended, the firewood was transferred to the barn, where it dried under the roof all summer.
              Chopping wood in winter and summer are two big differences. In winter, it is much easier and more comfortable, in the sense that it became hot - he took off his padded jacket, the wind blew - he put it on again. smile
              1. kalibr
                8 December 2022 13: 29
                +2
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                little has changed.

                Marvelous! Everything was exactly the opposite with us. Also bought meters. Sawing was contracted for 2 and 1 cut. Two more expensive is understandable. But logs of 33 cm each turned out to be pricked easily. for 1 cut - 50 to 50. It’s also easy, but they didn’t always enter the furnace, because there were 70 and even 80 cm chocks.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 14: 15
                  +3
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Everything was exactly the opposite with us.

                  Did you really buy firewood in the spring or at the beginning of summer to mess around in the summer? I do not understand - what for?
                  In the summer, the village is full of other worries, there is no time to mess with firewood. Yes, and the woodcutter needs to be slaughtered at the beginning of summer, otherwise everything will not have time to dry out - in August it may already rain. However, these are our, St. Petersburg difficulties. smile
                  1. kalibr
                    8 December 2022 15: 05
                    +3
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Yes, and the woodcutter needs to be slaughtered at the beginning of summer, otherwise everything will not have time to dry

                    So we dried firewood in woodpile - laying one log in human height, and roofing felt and bricks from the wind on top. Dry all summer. Firewood was being prepared in June! And they cleaned the woodshed in August! Everyone did it, not only my grandfather.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 17: 49
                      +3
                      The climate, apparently, allows. In May, we always removed firewood into the firewood shed. smile
                      1. kalibr
                        8 December 2022 18: 13
                        +3
                        I will insert your information into another novel, word for word. A very interesting detail of life in the USSR is unknown to me: one time, one country, and such a difference is huge.
                      2. Grim Reaper
                        Grim Reaper 8 December 2022 21: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        : one time, one country, and such a difference is huge.

                        Hello, is this Semyon Abramovich?
                        No, this is Ivan Mikhailovich.
                        Hello, is this a jewelry shop?
                        - No, it's a home.
                        Hello, is this number 223345?
                        -no, 223346
                        -wow, an error in the least significant digit by one digit, but such a difference ....
                        ;)
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 21: 50
                        +2
                        And if the hide and seek driver moved far from the horse, then instead of "Axe-axe, sit like a thief ...", they shouted loudly: "Saw-saw, fly like an arrow!" smile
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 22: 16
                        +2
                        “So you played the right games as a child.”)))
                      5. Above_name
                        Above_name 18 December 2022 01: 30
                        0
                        "So you read the right books as a child." Remember Vysotsky's voice for yourself - although you obviously commented with subtext.
                      6. kalibr
                        9 December 2022 10: 15
                        +3
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        "Saw-saw, fly like an arrow!"

                        And we have! Here! Firewood was sawn and chopped in different ways, but they shouted one thing!
                      7. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 9 December 2022 10: 39
                        +3
                        It has long been an idea to collect works of children's folklore (sayings, counting rhymes, songs, anecdotes, horror stories, sadyuzhka poems) of their time and analyze when this or that work appeared, under what circumstances, and publish it here on VO. Didn't intend... request
                        And it would be interesting later in the discussions to read how this or that work sounded in different regions of the USSR ... I think they would learn a lot of new and funny things.
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 22: 11
                        +2
                        one time, one country, and such a difference is huge.
                        In my youth, I conducted one philological study on the folk terminology of educational institutions in the USSR ... Maybe you will be interested?
          3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2022 19: 32
            +3
            Hi Mikhail, he himself answered his own question why firewood is chopped in winter and not in summer. I won’t get into physics, I’ll answer with the words of my grandfather. “In winter, a birch ring is better - because the moisture in the log freezes out.”
            By the way, to build something is also from the winter forest. Old people specially cut logs into foundations in February on the full moon. Of course not at night, but during the full moon phase.
          4. Above_name
            Above_name 18 December 2022 00: 58
            0
            "We always chop firewood"
            What are they doing? Word map to help you.
        3. ANB
          ANB 9 December 2022 00: 33
          0
          . and then they sawed the chopped firewood themselves as needed.

          Probably, you meant that sawn pricked. My grandfather did the same, only sawed himself on a circular saw. Sawn ones dry better and are easier to prick later.
        4. Tagir Kilmakaev
          Tagir Kilmakaev 12 December 2022 11: 08
          +2
          Respect!
          I immediately remembered my childhood, then life flew by, then 15 years in the taiga at an abandoned mine, where there were 9 of us - that's where all the skills of survival and firewood came in handy. A couple of years ago I moved to help the younger ones, and it’s easier to live in the city ...
          1. kalibr
            12 December 2022 15: 27
            0
            Can you imagine what valuable material is in your hands? Could you write an article about this here in VO, or I'll tell you where if you don't go here
            1. Tagir Kilmakaev
              Tagir Kilmakaev 12 December 2022 17: 07
              +1
              Yes, in these 15 years I have lagged behind life, although I sometimes visited the city with my eldest son. So much has happened in the world!
              Yes, and I'm not really a painter. It is easier for me to give a lecture on selection, mushroom growing, or to miners on the reclamation of devastated lands with help. planting trees (there are some peculiarities). And I give all my free time to the boys, I'm with them love, brothers, love... especially the youngest, she is 4 now. Even in the apartment, repairs need to be done (they took a large secondary apartment to fit everyone).
              1. kalibr
                12 December 2022 20: 34
                0
                It means this: especially for you and your 4-year-old girl, the article "Teach a child to play" will be published tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, and then its continuation will go ... for boys. And think about the article. Always a literate knowledgeable, elderly person can write one article about what he knows, what he saw, what is interesting. And even two! It's hard to write everyday...
  3. navycat777
    navycat777 8 December 2022 05: 26
    0
    It would be nice to know the tactics of using an ax in conjunction with other weapons.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 8 December 2022 07: 06
      +13
      With this question, it is better to turn to the descendants of a certain category of rural workers in our country, perhaps oral traditions about this "interaction" have been preserved. laughing


      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 8 December 2022 07: 15
        +3
        Original ... smile
        I would improve the ax... by making it a detachable butt for the cutoff.
        And if you get caught by the Chekists with this new product, you immediately say ...
        I am an old sick woodcutter going to harvest firewood ... I don’t know anything ... I found a sawed-off ax in the forest. smile
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 8 December 2022 07: 23
          +11
          I don’t know how in the form of a butt, but they already tried to use an ax instead of a bayonet. good


          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. 8 December 2022 07: 27
            +2
            Well, here the barrel can be bent ... below the photo of the ax pistol will be more practical.
            1. kalibr
              8 December 2022 07: 39
              +6
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              stem can be bent

              Watching who to cut. If people, then hardly ...
          2. stankow
            stankow 11 December 2022 10: 33
            0
            Probably made for cinema. Two hits and Khan firearms. The stems and the box will loosen.
        2. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 8 December 2022 07: 24
          +9
          Like such a miracle of thought of the Middle Ages.
          ..
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 8 December 2022 07: 51
            +5
            below the photo of the ax pistol will be more practical.


            I doubt very much the practicality of this crap, a purely decorative toy, and besides, a pronounced remake. request
            1. icelord
              icelord 8 December 2022 10: 36
              +7
              Yeah, a modern souvenir on the wall, but this one with a six-barreled wheeled pistol from a tower with provenance at the beginning of the 17th century


              1. Catfish
                Catfish 8 December 2022 10: 42
                +6
                However! Well, the unit! request Human thought knows no barriers! good

                Good morning, Igor! drinks
                1. icelord
                  icelord 8 December 2022 10: 54
                  +5
                  Hello Kostantin, yes, a funny little thing, moreover, 5 barrels on the striker and one more in the handle, so to speak, rear defense laughing
              2. stankow
                stankow 11 December 2022 10: 37
                +1
                Well, in the 17th century, too, walls had to be decorated with something ... wink The master ordered, the master did. Any whim. But in a fight with such ... hardly wink
                1. icelord
                  icelord 15 December 2022 02: 30
                  +1
                  Maybe in battle, the general is standing on a hill and a cool thing at the price of a squadron of reiters hangs by the saddle .... inspires. and it doesn’t really interfere, you don’t drag yourself on yourself
                  1. stankow
                    stankow 15 December 2022 12: 42
                    0
                    Exactly! wink Well, not quite into battle, but at least the product was noted on the battlefield wink
      2. alekseykabanets
        alekseykabanets 8 December 2022 07: 20
        +6
        Hello, Konstantin!
        Quote: Sea Cat
        perhaps oral traditions about this "interaction" have been preserved.

        I believe that written evidence of "interaction" has also been preserved in the archives of the NKVD.))))
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 8 December 2022 07: 27
          +9
          Good morning, Aleksey! smile

          Yes, the archive of the NKVD, as a repository of written sources on the history of the beloved state, is certainly unique, only ... "and in that high tower there is no way for anyone." request bully
          1. kalibr
            8 December 2022 07: 35
            +9
            Quote: Sea Cat
            "and in that tall tower there is no way for anyone"

            Checked in practice!
          2. alekseykabanets
            alekseykabanets 8 December 2022 07: 47
            +6
            Quote: Sea Cat
            "and in that tall tower there is no way for anyone"

            Yes unfortunately. Personally, I would like to know more about Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria, but unfortunately, almost all documents on him are closed.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 8 December 2022 08: 15
              +9
              Personally, I would like to know more about Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria, but unfortunately, almost all documents on him are closed.
              Me too. But this mystery is great. Why would it be in the age of universal democracy. as we have been told repeatedly since 1991?
              1. kalibr
                8 December 2022 18: 24
                +3
                Quote: Aviator_
                this mystery is great there

                As for me, dear Sergey, my stepfather served in SMERSH, in the Polish army (in the same division with the Red tank (a joke about the tank), and ... in various other places. He was Zhdanov's guarantor, met with Beria. .. I started writing a novel based on his memoirs: "Four Crosses for Pan Soviet Colonel. "Brought it to June 22, 1941 and a month later ... and then, that is, recently, everything turned out like this, primarily with Poland, which, I think , it's better to wait with the end of it. Although all the data and award sheets about him were posted on the Internet. This is to say that there are enough "secrets" known even to one person and it is not known how this or that "secret" will be perceived by both the heirs of SMERSH and ... "on the other side"...
                1. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ 8 December 2022 18: 40
                  +3
                  How "the other side" will perceive the text, I think now we don't give a damn. This was earlier, in the days of the "fraternal Polish people", perhaps it was not so. You have to be afraid of your liberals. They spawned so many fairy tales in the late 80s that they are now embarrassed to be exposed. Viktor Imantovich Alksnis spoke about the cleaning of the archives. As a direct relative of the repressed Yakov Alksnis, who commanded the Red Army Air Force, in the mid-90s he managed to see the case of his grandfather. Already then there were no some sheets. When he at the beginning of the noughties again made the same request. and again looked at his grandfather's work, then the sheets became even smaller.
            2. Tagir Kilmakaev
              Tagir Kilmakaev 12 December 2022 11: 25
              +1
              They are not closed, they simply do not exist, and what is available is fake. Lavrenty Palych was removed from the road by the henchmen of Mikitka the corn-grower.
              It is always necessary to analyze who benefits and who blows the most.
          3. Catfish
            Catfish 8 December 2022 09: 04
            +8
            About this comrade, I recalled the reaction of the people to some events in the capital. laughing
            Not a day today, but an extravaganza,
            The Moscow public rejoices:
            GUM opened, Beria covered himself,
            And they printed Chukovskaya.

            Cherry blossoms in Tbilisi
            Not for Lavrenty Palych!
            And for Kliment Efremich
            And Vyacheslav Mikhalycha!

            Lavrenty Palych Beria
            Out of confidence
            And comrade Malenkov
            Kicked him.
            1. The comment was deleted.
          4. Tagir Kilmakaev
            Tagir Kilmakaev 12 December 2022 11: 18
            0
            With the collapse of the USSR, there is a total destruction of archives and the stuffing of fakes there - history is written by the winners, and in this case, liberals ...
        2. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 8 December 2022 22: 32
          0
          Quote: aleksejkabanets

          I believe that written evidence of "interaction" has also been preserved in the archives of the NKVD.))))
          hi
    2. icelord
      icelord 8 December 2022 15: 12
      +3
      Unless in interaction with a shield, I can’t imagine how to interact with something else, a sword in one hand an ax in the other? This is never done, very inconvenient, completely impossible, I would say. And if as a spare, then this is as much as you like, a spear, an ax, a sword is a normal set of a European knight, the standard can be said. And the steppe rider also usually has a pike, a saber, a coinage. Or konchar, but that's another story
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 15: 49
        +3
        Or konchar
        A very specific shvordina.
        1. icelord
          icelord 8 December 2022 16: 59
          +3
          Especially when holding a konchar in his hands, he cannot fencing from the word at all, only stab on a grand scale, preferably adding the energy of a horse, the purpose is not entirely clear, the second, spare peak, as for me, would be better. That's how the winged hussars often have a broadsword instead of a konchar, this is understandable. And here is the end...
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 December 2022 17: 12
            +3
            Konchar did not hold in his hands, but he saw his European counterpart, estok.

            Hermitage copy of the German work, from the vaults.
            1. icelord
              icelord 8 December 2022 17: 20
              +5
              The estoc is still usually shorter, but also uncomfortable, and the konchar is long, rather heavy and with a very peculiar balance, inert and poorly maneuverable, a short spear is much more dexterous, I don’t know what the trick is, it’s unlikely that such a common weapon was dragged for beauty, but neither none of my acquaintances from Eastfehov would have taken him into a real medieval battle. We are missing something in its functionality, it had some advantages over a spear, because it is simply much more expensive. So the meaning was
              1. Andrey Moskvin
                Andrey Moskvin 12 December 2022 20: 51
                0
                Konchar is closer to alshpis than to a sword.
            2. icelord
              icelord 8 December 2022 17: 27
              +4
              PS In general, scimitar and konchar are the two most mysterious pieces of iron for me. Well, we don’t consider any exotics like urumi, I don’t believe in their functionality in a real battle. The scimitar is also in question as a weapon of the battlefield, but the konchar is definitely fighting, but for me it’s a terribly clumsy thing
              1. Eule
                Eule 8 December 2022 21: 06
                +1
                Quote: Icelord
                The scimitar is also questionable as a battlefield weapon

                IMHO it is rather a weapon of constant wear, for self-defense, the fight against corruption, tax optimization.
              2. alekseykabanets
                alekseykabanets 9 December 2022 10: 58
                -1
                Quote: Icelord
                The scimitar is also questionable as a battlefield weapon

                I used to come across somewhere a Turkish video on a scimitar. The Turk fenced with a saber and a scimitar in his left hand, something like a sword in his right and a Caucasian dagger in his left hand.
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 8 December 2022 20: 19
          +1
          Experienced and selfless evil spirits were sitting in the siege, the Robber brothers were sitting, Nightingale Odikhmantievich and Lyagva Odikhmantievich, Likho One-Eyed was with them, as well as the allied evil spirit Konchar, nicknamed Pimple.


          And KONCHAR, by any chance, is not a Turkic word? wink

          Hello Anton. drinks
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 December 2022 20: 25
            +1
            Hi Uncle Kostya!
            Somehow I did not think about the etymology. I just know how the konchar differs from the estok, although the weapon is of the same type.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 8 December 2022 20: 48
              +1
              But I wonder how and where the same type of weapon was called differently and how these names migrated from west to east and from east to west.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 8 December 2022 20: 56
                +1
                Then you have the cards in hand. I was wondering (actually even now) "how much a chicken cost in Paris during the time of Joan of Arc", so the "Redemption of a corrle" appeared.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 8 December 2022 21: 18
                  +1
                  The only thing that comes to my mind is Henry of Navarre and his "chicken in a pot". smile

                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 8 December 2022 21: 49
                    +1
                    This phrase, which has become a meme, belongs to the pen of Shpakovsky. About 4 years ago they discussed some medieval topic and he said that he would like to write a novel about Jeanne, but he does not know everyday trifles, for example, how much a chicken cost ... And I was hooked! Since then, I have grown a little in my knowledge.)))
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 December 2022 22: 04
                      +1
                      Yes, chicken is a very essential product today, Masha cooks it perfectly in the oven. I don’t know how we would have lived without this bird, because you don’t run into Ryazan for meat, but they bring chicken here. And this is in the village where the world is heading! belay

                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 22: 29
                        +4
                        Get a pig.
                        "Letter from the army:
                        "Dear mom and dad! Don't send me more food and money. It's better to buy a pig with this money and name it "Sergeant Sidorov"... And I'll come and slaughter him!!!!!!!"
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 8 December 2022 22: 32
                        +3
                        Laughter, laughter, and the local people stopped even keeping chickens, I'm not talking about cattle. If the shops are closed, everyone will rest from hunger or go to the main road. A dream come true come true - a complete link between the city and the countryside. negative
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 23: 02
                        +4
                        "- Dad, what is an "alternative?"
                        Well, how should I tell you, son...
                        Here, let's say, you grew up, bought yourself a poultry farm, chickens live and breed ... And here you are! Flood...
                        - And where is the "alternative" here?
                        Ducks, son, ducks... "
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish 8 December 2022 23: 29
                        +2
                        Ducks are flying, ducks and two geese are flying.
                        Oh, who I love, who I love - I can't wait.


                        I ate both duck and goose, but I still like chicken more, or maybe just a habit. laughing
                      5. Tagir Kilmakaev
                        Tagir Kilmakaev 12 December 2022 11: 34
                        +1
                        There is a village not far from the lake (you can see it from it) in Soviet times, almost 80% of the yard had cattle. Today I saw the last cow - one granny keeps. Here they are closed. Villages next to cities are dying out, summer residents and cottages of krasnobaevs are settling.
          2. icelord
            icelord 8 December 2022 22: 08
            +2
            It seems to be Turkic, related to the Khanjar, if insanity does not change me
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 8 December 2022 22: 29
              +2
              Yes, the words are very similar, but the weapons are completely different purposes.



              There was also the 13th SS Volunteer Mountain Infantry Division "Khanjar" (1st Croatian), though on the chevron they depict something completely third.

              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 8 December 2022 22: 39
                +3
                The chevron depicts a late and exaggerated falchion.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 8 December 2022 23: 35
                  +2
                  late and exaggerated falchion.




                  And there is such a blade.
              2. icelord
                icelord 8 December 2022 22: 41
                +1
                Well, khanjar is just a dagger in Turkic. As far as I remember, the konchar is taken out of it, I remember being surprised that the rapier in Czech is somehow called something similar. And on the chevron there is a cleaver, similar to the cleaver of the labor front of the 3rd Reich. Well, at least with a blade, although maybe a falchion. Go understand what Himmler meant there
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 8 December 2022 23: 32
                  +2
                  a cleaver similar to the cleaver of the Labor Front of the 3rd Reich.


                  Yes, there is definitely something in common, but it is unlikely that Adolf knew what a falchion is and what it is in general. wink
                  1. icelord
                    icelord 8 December 2022 23: 52
                    +2
                    Maybe he knew, he loved the story, in his own way, of course, with stretches of mysticism and very one-sidedly, but he loved
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 December 2022 00: 03
                      +2
                      Yes, with the mysticism of these guys, and not only Adolf, everything was in order. Something that they have been working on is still not really known how many years have passed, and the Reich still keeps its secrets. request
                      1. icelord
                        icelord 10 December 2022 00: 28
                        +1
                        Long thought. But there is something in it. I myself do not like alternativeism, but there is something ... So many people were looking for at one time. Well, Indian Jones, then in the 20-30s, there really were a lot
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 10 December 2022 00: 39
                        +2
                        Good night, Igor. smile
                        There is definitely something, well, it’s impossible to accuse such an organization as the SS of hysteria and dementia.
                        The whole question is where to look for "what is" and how it can end.
                  2. saygon66
                    saygon66 9 December 2022 00: 47
                    +1
                    Is this a falchion? The RAD dagger is rather a smaller copy of a fascinated knife...
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 December 2022 00: 59
                      +2
                      The RAD dagger is rather a smaller copy of a fascinated knife...


                      Yes, it certainly is. And the falchion was meant as an emblem on the chevron of the Khanjar division.
                      1. saygon66
                        saygon66 9 December 2022 01: 40
                        +1
                        - Hardly ... Rather, the image of the Turkish scimitar accepted in Europe ... Bosniaks are Muslims, hence the "Turkish" symbolism ...
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 9 December 2022 01: 55
                        +3
                        The question is debatable, namesake, but there is no one to ask. request Everything can be in equal proportion, or vice versa. wink
                    2. icelord
                      icelord 9 December 2022 17: 27
                      +1
                      It is difficult to say what was the prototype of the RAD cleaver, but on the chevron it is either it or a falchion.
                      PS These are Croats, not Bosnians
                      1. saygon66
                        saygon66 9 December 2022 18: 04
                        +1
                        "Vika" and Konstantin Zalessky do not agree with you ... wink
                        - By the way, in March last year there was material about the 13th division ...
                      2. icelord
                        icelord 10 December 2022 00: 19
                        +1
                        I do not argue, and the Albanians too, I know the new time like this, on top. I think all the Balkan Muslims were called to the division.
              3. Andrey Moskvin
                Andrey Moskvin 12 December 2022 20: 54
                0
                In my opinion, this is a purely Turkish dagger.
  4. Vladimir Vladimirovich Vorontsov
    Vladimir Vladimirovich Vorontsov 8 December 2022 05: 37
    +2
    That is why the "Bible of Morgan" (according to the place of its storage), or, more correctly, the "Bible of the Crusader" or the "Bible of Maciewski", in this regard, the source is completely unique

    ***
    “What is written with a pen cannot be cut down with an axe” ...







    ***
  5. Catfish
    Catfish 8 December 2022 07: 16
    +12
    Purely out of patriotic zeal smile I get into the "axe" topic and post images of Slavic coinage of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries from the collection of the State Historical Museum.

    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 07: 37
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Gim

      I can't see these three letters for a number of reasons...
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 8 December 2022 07: 47
        +9
        Well, I can’t get away from them, ten years of life and many, many good things.
        But then other people worked there, and the country was different.

        Good morning, Vyacheslav, and thank you for your work. smile drinks
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 10: 56
      +7
      Quote: Sea Cat
      images of Slavic coinage of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries

      The first one is clearly a purely battle axe. But as for the other two, I have certain doubts, in any case, without knowing their size and weight, it is difficult to attribute them as military weapons, unlike the first. If they weigh half a hundred to one hundred and fifty grams, then they are probably combat. The workers were harder.
      1. icelord
        icelord 8 December 2022 11: 12
        +6
        The second is also combat, the third must be weighed, but at 98 percent of the household. The eye is oval, on combat it is almost always round
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 11: 22
          +4
          Quote: Icelord
          Oval eye

          Not only. The very shape of the blade suggests, rather, that this is a woodworking tool, and not a weapon. However, again, a lot depends on the weight. If light - most likely a weapon.
          1. icelord
            icelord 8 December 2022 12: 36
            +4
            The shape, the eyelet, everything in the complex leaves practically no chance, in any case, I would not take it into my collection, even if it is light. I had a chance to hold a lot of axes, I have never come across a combat one with an oval eye, for me this is already a sufficient sign of household
  6. far diu
    far diu 8 December 2022 08: 20
    +2
    Berdysh is better)

    Text is too short
  7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 December 2022 08: 25
    +11
    Not a specialist at all, but I have read that it was the ax, and not the sword, that was, so to speak, the classic weapon of the Russian warrior, since the number of Slavic battle axes found by archaeologists is an order of magnitude greater than the number of swords.
    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 09: 19
      +3
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      it was the ax, and not the sword, that was, so to speak, the classic weapon of the Russian warrior, since the number of Slavic battle axes found by archaeologists is an order of magnitude greater than the number of swords.

      You are absolutely right. The sword is the weapon of the "honorable husband", and the ax is the weapon ... of the "muzhik" (little man). And there have always been fewer "female men" than "nobles! Kirpichnikov has everything ...
      1. solar
        solar 8 December 2022 10: 18
        +1
        And there were always fewer "female men" than "nobles!"

        Rather the opposite.
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 12: 37
          +2
          Quote from solar
          Rather the opposite.

          Of course! This is a typo!
    2. icelord
      icelord 8 December 2022 10: 43
      +6
      I am absolutely sure that, like everywhere else, the main and "classic" weapon is a spear, and not a sword or an ax at all
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 December 2022 12: 55
        +2
        Of course. But in addition to the spear, there was usually a shield and a weapon of more close combat than a polearm. And it was usually an ax, not a sword.
        1. icelord
          icelord 8 December 2022 13: 02
          +3
          A shield is possible, but not a fact, and a spear, well, a knife, but more like a household, what other swords are axes? Well, the leaders maybe
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 December 2022 20: 55
            +1
            Quote: Icelord
            A shield is possible, but not a fact, and a spear, well, a knife, but more like a household, what other swords are axes?

            It seems that until the first half of the 10th century, for 1 sword in the region of settlements of the Eastern Slavs, there were 16 axes and 8 spearheads. And yes, a battle ax is usually lighter than a utility ax
            1. icelord
              icelord 8 December 2022 22: 12
              0
              Well, it’s just that if the enemy has a spear, and you broke yours, then it’s better not to get the ax, but to run faster laughing . If we are not talking about the system of professional warriors, of course, such as the Viking shield wall. But even among the Vikings, the spear was much more common on the battlefield. Although everyone had axes, of course. In the north, it’s difficult without an ax, but it’s still not a weapon for the most part. By the way, the Vikings didn’t even always take away knives from their captives, they didn’t consider them weapons, the usual household for eating
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 11: 06
      +6
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      the number of Slavic battle axes found by archaeologists is an order of magnitude greater than the number of swords.

      Until the XNUMXth century Messi is not found in Rus' at all, as well as axes, which can be attributed as purely combat, that is, not suitable for purposes other than military ones. Moreover, if I remember correctly, these axes-chasers are mainly found in the steppe zone, and not in the forest. That is, it is the rider's weapon.
      But in general, an ax is a dual-use item, and it’s very difficult for archaeologists to say for sure whether it’s a weapon or a household item, unlike a sword.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 8 December 2022 11: 39
        +2
        Until the XNUMXth century Messi is not found in Rus' at all, as well as axes, which can be attributed as purely combat

        They are not found in Rus', they are found among the Slavs. For obvious reasons
        Small axes - coinage were found in the villages of the Prague culture Khachki and Zimne.
        https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02187294/document
        I wrote about the sword from Kartamyshevo several times already.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 12: 17
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          I wrote about the sword from Kartamyshevo several times already.

          I remember our discussion... smile
          With this sword, too, the story is not simple, as far as I remember. Its dating by type and place of discovery (Kolochinskaya culture) seems to coincide, but it was obtained out of context, so we are left with only assumptions and zero facts, except for the presence of the sword itself.
          But even if all the assumptions about this sword are correct - the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, a burial, then without the accompanying inventory we still cannot say whose burial it is, it is quite possible that, for example, it is Gothic, although the territory seems to be Slavic.
          In any case, a single find, all the more so, is as "problematic" as the find of the "Turov sword" (see my corresponding article smile ) does not change the overall picture and should be regarded as an exception.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 8 December 2022 12: 22
            +3
            Michael, well, what kind of Goths in the fifth century in the Kursk region ??
            Either Slavs or Balts.
            And what about axes? Also random finds outside the archaeological context?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 12: 52
              +3
              Quote: Engineer
              what are the Goths in the fifth century in the Kursk region?

              Rest Ostrogoths. smile I understand that they did not live there, but we cannot rule out their accidental presence on this territory. We went on a campaign, the leader died, he was buried with all honors, and then an excavator arrived, mixed everything up, only one sword remained.
              The problem with these findings lies in the fact that on the mere fact of the presence of an object in a certain area, one can fantasize almost unlimitedly (it depends only on the degree of irresponsibility of the dreamer) and it is absolutely impossible to refute these fantasies, because there is nothing. To the question "what is your evidence?" followed by the answer "and yours?" and any discussion can be ended.
              There would be at least a couple more of these swords nearby, but with a passing inventory that allows you to determine who, when and how they buried them is another matter. It would be possible to build hypotheses, argue and prove something. But, alas. Therefore, I personally put such finds on the “riddle” shelf, put them into passive waiting mode and wait for new data.
              Quote: Engineer
              And what about axes?

              What about axes? The same as it was - those that can definitely be considered combat, almost all of the steppe origin and are part of the rider's equipment.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 8 December 2022 12: 59
                +3
                You at least localize the Ostrogoths in the fifth century, and then think about why they should move to the Kursk region (or through it). Not otherwise than for fabulously rich booty.
                What about axes?

                They were found on the territory of Slavic settlements and are the weapons of the Slavs. Riders or foot soldiers does not matter
                1. Luminman
                  Luminman 8 December 2022 13: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  You at least localize the Ostrogoths in the fifth century, and then think about why they should move to the Kursk region (or through it)

                  In fact, it is generally accepted that the Goths (Ostrogoths - this is later) crawled out of Scandinavia somewhere in the 2nd century and crawled to the Black Sea region. Why don't they appear on the territory of the modern Kursk region? And ended up in the Pyrenees. Yes, you know that too...
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 8 December 2022 13: 51
                    +3
                    In fact, it is customary to read the same Jordan with the comments of Skrzhinskaya and Shchukin in order to understand that the Goths occupied a more or less certain area in the 4th-5th-6th centuries
                    1. Luminman
                      Luminman 8 December 2022 13: 53
                      +2
                      And what about military tourism in the Kursk region?
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 December 2022 13: 57
                        +3
                        How about just thinking about it?
                        Well, there to outline the range, think about who the main opponents are, where are the areas with the richest prey, etc.
                      2. Luminman
                        Luminman 8 December 2022 14: 08
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Well, outline the area there, think about who the main opponents are

                        I know about the area is ready. However, the Spaniards only had an area in the Pyrenees, but they reached, or rather swam, to the other side of the globe. Don't tell me about full gallions of gold and spices - that was much later. And at first they clung to miserable islands, with savage Caraibs living there. Here, as in the saying - at least a tuft of wool from a sheep ...
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 December 2022 14: 17
                        +4
                        And this sword could also be lost by a brave Roman intelligence officer on a secret mission in the Kursk forests and swamps.
                        And it could also be the trophy sword of the Hun hero who was looking for the last shelter after the battle of Nedao.
                        You don’t even understand why what you write is not history, but nonsense
                      4. Luminman
                        Luminman 8 December 2022 14: 23
                        +1
                        Your hallucinations are funny!
                        ------
                      5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2022 19: 56
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And this sword could also be lost by a brave Roman intelligence officer on a secret mission in the Kursk forests and swamps.
                        And it could also be the trophy sword of the Hun hero who was looking for the last shelter after the battle of Nedao.
                        You don’t even understand why what you write is not history, but nonsense

                        And if we consider the trading version?
                      6. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 December 2022 20: 10
                        +1
                        Can.
                        It remains only to guess who with whom
                      7. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2022 21: 02
                        +2
                        The first who sold it was a goth blacksmith, ...., ..., the last one was one of the Balts or Slavs.
                        Between them there could be a chain of a dozen characters.
                2. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 13: 55
                  +4
                  Denis, I know that the Goths are in the XNUMXth century. - this is modern. Hungary and the Balkans. Not to say that Kursk is within easy reach, but not quite an insurmountable distance either. Well, let them not be Goths, let someone else of your choice, I wanted to say that we don’t know who and when buried or lost the Kartamyshevsky sword in the place where it was found, which means we have the right to put forward any versions about this, anyway, to prove, and, accordingly, to refute these versions is now impossible. We only know that there is a sword and that it is one. You do not allow, for example, such a version of its origin as a banal forgery? The sword, found by black archaeologists in some Black Sea region, was simply thrown into the bucket of an excavator for the sake of laughter, for fun, so that we would break our heads, otherwise, you see, we would fight for the amusement of the public? I admit. Under the circumstances, this version is no worse than the others.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  They were found on the territory of Slavic settlements and are the weapons of the Slavs. Riders or foot soldiers does not matter

                  Well, how to say ... Again - why weapons? The fact that these objects were created as weapons does not allow us to state categorically that those who used them last used them as weapons. Could these hatchets, for example, be trophies that are in the temple and have exclusively sacred meaning for their last owners? Could. Or, like trophies, they were placed in the burial of a respected person ... Again, are there many of these coins in Slavic settlements? No, not many, the finds are rare. Are there any finds of blanks, semi-finished products? Is there evidence of the use of these weapons by the Slavs?
                  To be honest, I do not really understand the subject of our discussion today. We returned to the question of the existence of a warrior culture among the Slavs in pre-Viking times? If so, then first you need to formulate the theses. For my part, I propose this. Among the Eastern Slavs, before the arrival of the Scandinavians, the squad culture was completely absent, or it was in its infancy and did not affect anything and left no traces for descendants. Among the Western and Southern Slavs, who were closer to the centers of civilization, the retinue culture began to emerge earlier, the first professional warriors began to appear, but before the folding of full-fledged squads with their hierarchy, leaders and other delights, such as control over the distribution of resources, it came no earlier than the XNUMXth century. .
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 8 December 2022 14: 05
                    +4
                    Or, like trophies, they were placed in the burial of a respected person...

                    Is this about early Slavic non-inventory burials now?
                    And you, Brute?
                    To be honest, I do not really understand the subject of our discussion today.

                    Everything is simple
                    Until the XNUMXth century Messi in Rus' is not found at all, like axes

                    Meet. The only difference is that not in Rus', which did not exist until the 9th century, but among the Slavs. Definitely found, at least for battle axes.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 14: 18
                      +4
                      "In Rus'" = "on the territory of the future Rus'". smile
                      smile It's all right?
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 December 2022 14: 25
                        +3
                        Quite. It wasn't even a specific request.
                    2. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 14: 43
                      +3
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Is this about early Slavic non-inventory burials now?

                      Well, it's okay for you to quibble. smile
                      We jump from the fifth to the tenth, and that turns out who knows what. Early Slavic - of course, without inventory, except that they gave food on a long journey.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 December 2022 15: 20
                        +3
                        Jumping from fifth to tenth

                        I don't jump. I'm all about Praguers and Kolochintsy. 6th-7th century.
                        There is also a fragment of a sword from Nikodimovo. It's kind of spammy too. Also Kolochintsy
                  2. cat Rusich
                    cat Rusich 8 December 2022 22: 49
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Denis, I know that the Goths are in the XNUMXth century. - this is modern. Hungary and the Balkans. Not to say that Kursk is within easy reach, but not quite an insurmountable distance either. .
                    The question is different...
                    Why would the Goths go so far to "sunrise"? - in those days, in the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe modern Kursk region. did not have wealthy settlements attractive to "military or commercial tourism".
                    what
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 11: 49
        +6
        axes-chasers, mainly come across in the steppe zone,
        A classic of the genre, from the early Scythians. And the consequences of its use.

      3. kalibr
        8 December 2022 12: 37
        +3
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        it is very difficult for archaeologists

        The truth has spoken by your mouth!
      4. icelord
        icelord 8 December 2022 12: 46
        +3
        Well, there were Altai bronze swords, iron Gothic, Hun and Sarmatian swords. Broadswords are also classic steppe. And since the 9th century, the classic Carolingians have already gone with the penetration of Norman culture
    4. Eule
      Eule 8 December 2022 21: 09
      -1
      There is also a question with the weight of the ax, I saw in the Ivanovo region a "children's branch cutter" made in the post-war years by a blacksmith for his son, according to whom (now over 80) he helped from 9 years old, chopped branches, chopped wood chips for kindling. Weight 250-300g, I could not weigh it more precisely with a kitchen scale.
      So the "children's ax" could be passed from the elder to the younger, and then to the son of the elder, until it was lost.
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      the number of Slavic battle axes found by archaeologists

      My version is simpler - if it flew off the ax handle, then it flew far away, and it’s not easy to find it, but in bad weather, in the snow, it’s completely unrealistic. A dropped sword is easier to pick up, it is noticeable and large.
  8. Illanatol
    Illanatol 8 December 2022 08: 39
    +4
    The embroidery shows how a horse's head is cut with such an ax on a long handle. However, it was not very convenient to use them in close formation.


    Controversial assertion. But how did they use halberds and reeds? Exclusively in single combat?
    It was just blows from top to bottom. Then you will not interfere with your comrades. And the blows are exceptionally strong (the rule of leverage), capable of cutting through any armor.
    However, you can strike with an ax from the bottom up (so to speak, for the supplement). Some battle axes had "beaks" - sharp protrusions from the back of the blade. Perhaps just for such a reception.
    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 09: 20
      +4
      Quote: Illanatol
      But how did they use halberds and reeds?

      In dense formations, they stabbed with a sharp end ...
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 8 December 2022 09: 34
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        In dense formations, they stabbed with a sharp end ...


        And so too. The front rank, most likely, delivered piercing blows - the maximum attack radius.
        But the second and third, using the length of the shaft, could hit from top to bottom on those who were not hit by the blows of the first line. In such a situation, one could sympathize with the enemy.
        However, these are just my guesses. This is how I would use this weapon in the ranks.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 11: 17
          +4
          Quote: Illanatol
          The front rank, most likely, delivered stabbing blows

          The front line, most likely, was armed with shields and spears, but the second - just with two-handed axes on a long ax handle. These axes twisted the enemy's shield wall over the heads of the first row and using their cover. Putting a warrior without a shield in the front row is such a thankless task.
          It was later, when the armor appeared en masse, the halberdiers stood in the front row. And with an ax, especially two-handed ones, there is nothing to do in the front row - neither swung really, nor defended.
          1. kalibr
            8 December 2022 12: 40
            +4
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            And with an ax, especially two-handed ones, there is nothing to do in the front row - neither swung really, nor defended.

            The shield wall was just at the Battle of Hastings. And there they chopped off the heads of horses with axes ...
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 8 December 2022 14: 05
              +6
              There are so many mistakes with this phone - it's a shame to read your own opuses. angry
              The shield wall is a typical Scandinavian way of fighting, with which they nightmared Europe for several hundred years. But as soon as the cavalry learned to break through this wall with a ramming blow, the Viking campaigns gradually faded away. Hastings is the clearest proof of this. The knights defeated the Vikings, driving them from the battlefield. Although, it was under Hastings that everything was very subtle, as far as I understand. Until Harald died, the wall of shields held on and would they break it in the end or not - it’s written with a pitchfork on the water. Still, the knights were still not quite the ones that we can see after half a century.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 8 December 2022 16: 05
                +5
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                So many bugs with this phone

                Well, yes. This electric offspring of a viper is capable of anything)))
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Until the XNUMXth century Messi in Rus' are not found at all
    2. kalibr
      8 December 2022 09: 22
      +5
      Quote: Illanatol
      And the blows are exceptionally strong (the rule of leverage), capable of cutting through any armor.

      This is very well shown in the film "Black Arrow" (ours). Where Dick Sand is in the lane cutting down a warrior with a halberd. Cinema, but everything was shown correctly!
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 8 December 2022 16: 09
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        This is very well shown in the film "Black Arrow" (ours). Where Dick Sand is in the lane cutting down a warrior with a halberd.

        To be honest, I don't remember feel
        But in the book, Dick Shelton, fighting with a halberd with Foxham, who had a sword and a dagger, felt unarmed.
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 18: 33
          +3
          Oh, Dick Sand is from Jules Verne, to blame. Shelton, of course. There is such a moment in the film, I will find it and use it in the next material. Here the matter ended in 1450 ... And there, just the War of the Roses ....
  9. Korsar4
    Korsar4 8 December 2022 09: 00
    +7
    Favorite instrument. Since childhood. The hatchet is smooth over time. When sharpened well - it's a pleasure to work.

    At one time, he constantly carried it with him in the summer. But that is already in the past.
  10. Tests
    Tests 8 December 2022 09: 53
    +6
    Dear Sea Cat (Konstantin) and kalibr (Vyacheslav), the descendants of Heinrich Grigorievich and Nikolai Ivanovich, both 20 years ago and 10 years ago, received stars for imitation of violent activity, and sat in judicial robes. Example: a criminal case against the head of the Information Center of the Internal Affairs Directorate of the Arkhangelsk Region, Colonel of the Internal Service Alexander Dudarev and Doctor of Historical Sciences, Professor of History of the Northern Arctic Federal University Mikhail Suprun. After this criminal case, the end of the history of the USSR as a scientific discipline came. Suprun collected data on Poles and Germans exiled to the Arkhangelsk region. Suprun was accused of illegally collecting and distributing information about the private life of a person, constituting his personal and family secret, without his consent. The court recognized M.N. Suprun guilty of committing a crime under Part 1 of Article 137 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation, but released him from criminal liability due to the expiration of the statute of limitations for criminal liability, that is, the historian was released from criminal liability on a non-rehabilitating basis. That's just, seized by people with clean hands, the notes and the computer were not returned to the professor ... How the judges imagined obtaining consent to disseminate information about repressions from people who died in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s last century? Some of the repressed and the children have already died, and some have grandchildren ... And someone has no children or grandchildren left, and the repressed German or Pole was the only child in the family. Looking for descendants of cousins ​​and second cousins?...
  11. icelord
    icelord 8 December 2022 10: 39
    +3
    Very interesting, only in the first illustration, a friend with a horseshoe on his shield does not have an ax, but a typical bearded ax
    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 12: 43
      +3
      Quote: Icelord
      not an ax

      Igor! In Senkevich's book it says "ax" and I did not change ...
      1. icelord
        icelord 8 December 2022 12: 50
        +3
        In the book of the ax (I believe in the word, I don’t remember myself, I read it for a long time smile ) but in the frame from the film, well, a typical bearded ax, just a classic of the genre
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 13: 30
          +2
          Quote: Icelord
          classics of the genre

          Igor, I did not understand until I found the frame, while I scanned it, until I found the epigraph ... It took so much time. I just thought how to quickly ... finish!
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 8 December 2022 16: 21
          +5
          Quote: Icelord
          In the book there is an ax (I believe in a word, I don’t remember myself, I read it for a long time), but in the frame from the film, well, a typical bearded ax

          In Polish, this is one word - siekiera.
          Translators are people too and they don't know everything.
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 8 December 2022 16: 12
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        Senkevich's book says "ax"

        As far as I understand, the "ax" in all Slavic languages ​​​​except Russian is called an ax. We have a word borrowed either from the Turks, or from the time of the Scythian-Sarmatians.
        1. Fat
          Fat 8 December 2022 16: 44
          +3
          Checked with google translate? wink
          The word ax is an ancient common Slavic, either native (tepe, teti "beat", with the suffix -or-), or an ancient Iranian borrowing (*tapara-) (compare with Ossetian færæt or Taj. Tabar). There is also a similar word tappara (battle ax) in Finnish. Another ancient Slavic name for an ax is an axe. In modern Russian, the term "axe" is an archaism that does not have a clear meaning, and is often arbitrarily applied to various types of axes, more often fighting ones. Even in ancient times, the ax was called "argun". The latter name is especially characteristic of the ancient Vladimir principality.
          Wikipedia
          hi Greetings, Ivan.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 8 December 2022 16: 55
            +4
            Quote: Thick
            Checked with google translate?

            No, I read. Well, in Ukrainian for sure))
            Mikola shake the sukiru! That don't gekay, but kazhy catching chi ni?
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2022 20: 47
            +2
            Good day. The ax is one of the early borrowings of the Eastern Slavs from the Iranian group of languages. Who exactly is not known, but the fact that it was made before the 9th century is unambiguous. Perhaps the word was taken from the Finno-Ugric tribes, but they were from someone even earlier. Or vice versa.
            Let this not be patriotic, but more like the truth.
            Such absurdities are rare, but they do occur. The classic example is a dog. The word came from the Alanian group of languages.
            However, our ancestors were familiar with axes for a long time - one of the groups of common Indo-European ancestors is called “riders on bulls with drilled axes” !!!
        2. Eule
          Eule 8 December 2022 21: 18
          +3
          There is already a folk map - "an ax in the languages ​​of Europe"
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 December 2022 07: 36
            +1
            Thank you!
            Sorry, I'm not smart enough to write a normal comment and, according to the site administration, does not carry useful information.
    2. hohol95
      hohol95 8 December 2022 13: 07
      +2
      Is there an exact definition and parameters of the ax?
      Or did each nation have its own concept of a battle ax and its name?
      1. icelord
        icelord 8 December 2022 13: 10
        +3
        There is, why not, and for a bearded ax there is, at least in European weapons
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 8 December 2022 13: 17
          +2
          Give the European meaning of "Axe".
          How they imagined or saw it.
          1. icelord
            icelord 8 December 2022 13: 22
            +2
            For what? Do you insist that this is not a bearded ax, but an axe? No, this is not an ax and close, but the most natural skeggox here is a clear notch under the blade with a flat top, very clear, stretched down more than forward, and not a crescent shape
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 8 December 2022 13: 38
              +2
              I see an axe.
              The ax is a very "streamlined" concept.
              From your words, the main feature of the ax is the semilunar shape of the blade. Are there any other signs?
              According to the crescent of the blade, the reeds can also be attributed to axes.
              1. icelord
                icelord 8 December 2022 13: 42
                +2
                So it is, the berdysh is a hefty ax laughing but more seriously, the size distinguishes the ax from the reed. Just walk through the pictures of an ax and a bearded ax or skeggox and you will immediately see the difference
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2022 20: 37
                  +3
                  Quote: Icelord
                  So it is, the berdysh is a hefty ax laughing but more seriously, the size distinguishes the ax from the reed. Just walk through the pictures of an ax and a bearded ax or skeggox and you will immediately see the difference

                  I enjoyed reading the comments on the article. The only thing, for some reason, when describing polearms, no one remembered the “brodex”? However, like the ax "from Xenema", which, despite its small size, has a moon-shaped blade.
                  Therefore, I will put forward my approach to the typology of weapons.
                  The Bearded Ax is primarily a one-handed weapon. The ax is a two-handed weapon. Hence the features of the blades of both.
                  1. icelord
                    icelord 8 December 2022 20: 51
                    +1
                    The bearded ax has exactly that beard, that is, it is stretched down and there is a recess between the blade and the handle, and the upper edge is usually flat or close to that, but the brodex is still not an ax, it is also stretched down, axes are small, especially Indo-Persian , Turkish and others like them
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2022 21: 15
                      +1
                      Quote: Icelord
                      The bearded ax has exactly that beard, that is, it is stretched down and there is a recess between the blade and the handle, and the upper edge is usually flat or close to that, but the brodex is still not an ax, it is also stretched down, axes are small, especially Indo-Persian , Turkish and others like them

                      Controversial.
                      For example, the brodex of a French knight during the Hundred Years War.

                      I was too lazy to look for images of the originals, posted the first replica that came across.
                      Such slotted axes were not mass weapons, but they are often found in museums in Western countries: with a cross, a crucifix, the Virgin Mary
                      1. icelord
                        icelord 8 December 2022 22: 01
                        +2
                        This is Brodex, here is the ax
                        rather ax-shaped polex. Terms such a thing is sometimes controversial, especially in intermediate varieties of which there are a great many. By the way, the handle is strange on the replica
                      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 December 2022 09: 30
                        +3
                        The handle is clearly simplified. I agree.
                        The question is what we want to come to at the end of the discussion.
                        Battle axes small (one-handed) can have both a moon-shaped blade (small ax), and a straight or slightly pronounced moon-shaped blade. They can be with or without a beard.
                        Based on the foregoing, I propose to you for judgment a simple concept that will reconcile all participants in the discussion:
                        Small axes should be distinguished by the shape of the blade: moon-shaped, straight and of the “roller” type.
                        By the shape of the beard: with or without a beard.
                        According to the shape of the product (cheeks): slotted or solid.
                        According to the shape of the eye: with a round, oval, triangular.
                        The shape of the butt: simple, complex. Complex can be further divided into subspecies.
                        The shape of the handle: straight, with a bend.
                        You can also highlight other differences and sub-types from the type of spout, heel (heel), pommel, and so on.
                        Immediately I warn you, the above proposals of a neophyte. I think this has been systematized for a long time and not by me.
                        Yours!
                        Well, the last. I remain of my opinion that the ax is a subspecies of the larger two-handed axe. However, nothing prevents the ax from having a beard. See berdysh.
                      3. icelord
                        icelord 9 December 2022 13: 18
                        +2
                        It's just that the terms are already accepted in most cases, and in explicit examples everything is clear, problems arise in intermediate samples. And so your system, colleague, is logical, but very complicated in my opinion, just right for an expert opinion, but for an ordinary conversation, too many signs must be taken into account
                      4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 December 2022 13: 48
                        +3
                        Systematization is my everything, the last 5 years. laughing
                        As my older comrades said, another 95 - “in the village it’s worse than a pitchfork, only a cut”

                        By the way, the name also comes from the axe.
                      5. icelord
                        icelord 9 December 2022 15: 54
                        +3
                        Is it sauerkraut? Want laughing . I'm not sure what the name is from the ax, but the ax is clearly so. How much does this device weigh approximately? I want to do it, it’s inconvenient to ferment cabbage with a knife or a chef’s cleaver
                      6. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 December 2022 16: 23
                        +3
                        Quote: Icelord
                        Is it sauerkraut? Want laughing . I'm not sure what the name is from the ax, but the ax is clearly so. How much does this device weigh approximately? I want to do it, it’s inconvenient to ferment cabbage with a knife or a chef’s cleaver

                        Though kill in "grams" I don't know! Tomorrow I'll go to my mother's house and I'll definitely weigh it.
                        And so, the thing is comfortable in the hand. Only special utensils are needed.
                      7. icelord
                        icelord 9 December 2022 16: 30
                        +3
                        I catch the word. I have approximate dimensions, I don’t need it exactly, but on what to cut there is also a piece of wood. And the approximate length, we had such a thing in the family, now we don’t. But I don't remember the exact size, it was small.
                      8. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 December 2022 16: 35
                        +3
                        Here is the specificity of the form of the soma deck. It repeats the shape of the cut cloth.
                      9. icelord
                        icelord 9 December 2022 16: 42
                        +2
                        It will be difficult to pile such a trough, especially in the absence of excess space lately, even cut his workshop almost to zero. So at the minimum I will sour, I love this business smile
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 December 2022 19: 14
                        +1
                        With swords it will somehow be easier.)))
                        Hello, Vlad!
                      11. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 December 2022 02: 58
                        +1
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        With swords it will somehow be easier.)))
                        Hello, Vlad!

                        Good night Anton!
                        I don’t know, maybe a sword, unlike an ax, is a rarer weapon in everyday life than an ax was before.
                        If at a glance:
                        The shape of the blade: straight or curved, wavy, and other subspecies.
                        According to the shape of sharpening (blade): double-edged or one-sided, or without sharpening (for example, konchar).
                        In the shape of the guard, hilt, pommel, fuller and tip of the blade. Plus, the method of manufacture and use (two-handed, one-and-a-half, one-handed, or main or auxiliary).
                        In fact, having knowledge, we call gladius or scramosax, we represent it visually by applying or discarding their signs.
                        It is more difficult with axes: how does an ax differ from a large ax or a small ax from a small ax. The same berdysh can, with a clear conscience, be called an ax and a subspecies of a large bearded ax with a moon-shaped blade.
                        But a household cleaver, you can’t confuse it with anything.
                        Today I had a conversation with my grandfather, so
                        He gave me another bunch of differences of an ordinary carpenter's ax, which I basically did not know about. For example, the Artinsk axes were forged with thickenings on the sheks (cloth) near the eye, the Upper Sergian axes were distinguished by an influx along the ax handle, the Mikhalovsky axes were with a thickening from the back of the butt. The variety is amazing, obsolete only by the Soviet guest of the product in the 60s of the last century!
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 December 2022 14: 07
            +3
            Give the European meaning of "Axe".
            Polex.
            Hi Aleksey!
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 8 December 2022 14: 57
              +3
              Transfer money -
              We translate! Money is Money...
              Good day Anton!
            2. icelord
              icelord 8 December 2022 17: 39
              +3
              Poleks is an ax for all axes, in the sense of a completely ax head laughing and so there were both direct poleaxes and ax-shaped ones, I came across a lot more direct museum ones for some reason



              PS The ax-shaped something in my picture, perhaps not even a poleax
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 8 December 2022 17: 51
                +2
                PS The ax-shaped something in my picture, perhaps not even a poleax
                Talhoffer has just such drawn, only with a swagger instead of a hammer.
                1. icelord
                  icelord 8 December 2022 18: 05
                  +5
                  You are probably right, after all, poleks, all these halberd-shaped ones are often difficult to pinpoint. By the way, I found a thing that cuts a knight in half in an article about medieval manuscripts, which is either a gross messer, or a siege knife, or a falchion ...
                  romfeya is straight ..... only in time for a thousand years it does not fit laughing
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 8 December 2022 18: 59
                    +4
                    There is such a story ... Before that publication, Shpakovsky turned to me with a request to help identify this canoe. And I also considered romfeyu.
                    1. icelord
                      icelord 8 December 2022 20: 28
                      +1
                      Well, the thing is quite functional, why would some knight not order a similar tool for himself, but this is from the area of ​​​​general assumptions, of course. In principle, even a Danish single-edged sword in a two-handed version was found, a kind of hefty Saxon, the anatomy of people is the same at all times
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 December 2022 20: 50
                        +2
                        I agree. But this is not a glaive, as Shpakovsky claimed.
  12. Moore
    Moore 8 December 2022 11: 32
    +2
    This execution ax... Almost the same as in the painting "The Execution of Lady Jane Grey"

    A straight handle, round in cross section, which, at the slightest wrong grip, ensures that the blade deviates from the intended cutting site. Why is that?
    1. Didn’t you think of a handle at one time, well, at least the same as that of the executioner in the movie “Three Fat Men”? This is unlikely .. The ancestors were not fools - they invented a lot of effective tools for taking life.
    2. Is it specifically to emphasize the qualifications of a shoulder craftsman? Well I do not know...
    1. icelord
      icelord 8 December 2022 12: 53
      +2
      Because on all battle axes it is round and on the axes of justice too
    2. hohol95
      hohol95 8 December 2022 13: 02
      +4
      The second point is more correct.
      It was not in vain that the French brought Madame Guillotina into the "work".
      Everyone who tried to "make money" on the executions of those sentenced, but was not in this case "professionals" created the real, to put it mildly, "khoror"! And they literally chopped the heads of those sentenced to pieces ...
  13. Tests
    Tests 8 December 2022 11: 41
    +2
    Moore (Andrey), dear, the picture was written at the beginning of the 19th century. What exactly is depicted on it, and what is not very much, we can only guess. The place of execution is not at all accurately depicted ...
    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 12: 45
      +2
      Quote: Tests
      Moore (Andrey), dear, the picture was written at the beginning of the 19th century. What exactly is depicted on it, and what is not very much, we can only guess. The place of execution is not at all accurately depicted ..

      You're right. It's really hard to say anything here. The artist could never see the executioner's ax live.
      1. icelord
        icelord 8 December 2022 12: 55
        +3
        No, he kanesh saw, in Europe, in the magistrates of almost every city, axes and swords of justice are still stored, you can look. It’s just that on them, as well as on combat ones, it’s always round, oval is definitely a household
  14. hohol95
    hohol95 8 December 2022 12: 57
    +2
    An ax more than three thousand years old was discovered in the Kemerovo region - Vesti Novosibirsk
    October 16 2020
    I have been reading non-fiction books for a long time. It talked about the "Fatyanovo culture" Battle axes "!
    WikiWiki -
    “The Fatyanovo culture was part of a large historical and cultural community of cultures with battle axes and cultures of corded ceramics, which belonged to the Indo-European family of peoples. Some researchers see this community as an undivided Proto-Balto-Slavic-Germanic community[28].

    Archaeological data testify to the special proximity of the Fatyanovo, Middle Dnieper, Visla-Neman cultures and the Baltic culture of boat-shaped axes[10][20][29][30].

    According to the assumption of D. A. Krainov, separate groups of tribes that joined the Fatyanovo culture previously lived in the Vistula-Rhine interfluve, the Upper and Middle Dniester[31]. By the time the early Fatyanovo people penetrated into the area between the Volga and Oka rivers, Late Neolithic tribes belonging to the Belevskaya and Volosovo cultures lived here. D. A. Krainov believed that the Fatyanovo tribes initially fell into a kindred environment of the descendants of the northern Indo-Europeans[32][33] and only at a later time they were surrounded by hostile tribes[10]."
  15. setter
    setter 8 December 2022 13: 36
    0
    First of all, it turned out that the first stone axes were not drilled, a groove was knocked out on them, into which a fork of a branch was inserted, after which the whole structure was wrapped with strips of leather soaked in fish or hoof glue.

    In general, the first stone axes were hand-held, that is, they did not have an ax handle. And in this form they have been used for more than 1,5 million years. And only about 6 years BC. an ax handle was adapted to the ax.
  16. Illanatol
    Illanatol 8 December 2022 13: 41
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    The front line, most likely, was armed with shields and spears, but the second - just with two-handed axes on a long ax handle. These axes twisted the enemy's shield wall over the heads of the first row and using their cover. Putting a warrior without a shield in the front row is such a thankless task.
    It was later, when the armor appeared en masse, the halberdiers stood in the front row. And with an ax, especially two-handed ones, there is nothing to do in the front row - neither swung really, nor defended.


    As for shields, I agree. However, I note that halberds and reeds were used even when the infantry no longer used shields.
    Actually, a dense palisade of spears or halberds also performed a protective function, simply preventing the enemy from approaching the distance of using weapons.
    .
    Alternatively, the front row could not have copies at all. They used very large shields that covered the body almost completely. In this case, it would be convenient to use short swords as a weapon. And the second and third row - struck with a long weapon.

    As the author rightly noted, halberds could also inflict stabbing blows. The shape of the ax handle - allowed (there was a tip like a spear).
    1. icelord
      icelord 8 December 2022 13: 54
      +1
      And against this system, already in modern times, the shield was revived again, rondachiers, remember these?
  17. setter
    setter 8 December 2022 13: 50
    +5
    True, it was the axes (called fascia), overlaid with a bunch of rods, that were the ceremonial weapons of the lictors - the honor guard of important Roman officials.

    Let me clarify. Yet "fascia" is a bundle of rods. Not an ax. The ax may or may not have been present.

    In the Capitoline Museum in Rome one can see the fasces without the axe.
    As for the execution, in the days of the republic in Rome, the presence of an ax in the fascia meant that the magistrate had the right to the death penalty. But with this ax, of course, they did not execute.
    1. kalibr
      8 December 2022 15: 11
      +4
      And - I should have written differently - "a bunch of rods from which an ax often stuck out." So, of course, it's more correct.
      B - read that they were executed. Either at Momsen, or somewhere else. The phrase sunk into my memory: "The lictors untied their fascists and first flogged the condemned, then cut off their heads." The remnants of the past memory... But sometimes the tails hold on tight. Or is it "Ancient Rome" textbook for universities... alas, that's all. The book is in front of my eyes, but I don’t remember who the author is. It was a long time ago 1972-73.
      1. setter
        setter 8 December 2022 15: 38
        +2
        If approached thoroughly, then the use of fascia and an ax for execution is a matter of academic discussion. On the pages of academic publications, you can find articles like Symbols and Showmanship in Roman Public Life: The Fasces.
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2022 18: 36
          +2
          Quote from Passeur
          question of academic discussion

          This was important to me before when I worked at VS. Now... don't waste your time. There were and will be inaccuracies, even in academic articles with a bunch of references.
  18. Illanatol
    Illanatol 9 December 2022 09: 28
    +2
    Quote: Icelord
    And against this system, already in modern times, the shield was revived again, rondachiers, remember these?


    It would be good against them and short swords at the first rank (like Roman gladiuses) would go. Blades between shields - stabbing blows to these "rodelieros". Similar - similar, wedge - wedge.
    1. icelord
      icelord 9 December 2022 16: 02
      +1
      The rondashers had swords, not Roman kanesh, better. But others had to first adapt to this tactic. Yes, and training is needed other than just keeping the line of pikemen. Pros are needed
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 10 December 2022 08: 46
        0
        Well, I wrote: against like - like. As for what better swords - how to look. The metal is probably better, but the question is which sword is more convenient.
        Rondachiers remind me of Gallic warriors in some way. Well, why not use Roman techniques against them? The Romans did well.
        Training, of course, is needed. But tactical flexibility is also needed. But the rondacheros-rodelieros had problems with this. Too highly specialized. And if the enemy could use cavalry against them, they were taken out of brackets at the moment. That's why they didn't last that long.
  19. Tagir Kilmakaev
    Tagir Kilmakaev 12 December 2022 10: 59
    0
    I'll leave reading the comments for a snack, but for now a few questions:
    1. An ax with a groove looks more like a sledgehammer, or is it a reinforced club to crush skulls ...
    2. In the photo of a drilled ax, the drilling diameter and the hole itself are ideal, this does not happen when drilling with bulk abrasive. And where did the copper tubes come from - drawing stacks, like rolling stocks - this is the 19th century. AD
    3. Egyptian bronze axe. Reed, papyrus and palm trees are not suitable for smelting ores because of the low heat transfer during combustion. There are generally a lot of questions on technology and dating of other Egypt itself. Egypt is full of everything, and tools and devices are not visible in any museum (either hidden in storerooms or destroyed by representatives of official science, so that there are no questions about the accepted dating of events and facts).
    4. The ax for execution has a thin handle - the necks are different. In addition, the round handle is inconvenient to strike - it can turn in sweaty hands.
    Hey experts! I'm waiting for an answer, like a nightingale of summer.
    1. icelord
      icelord 15 December 2022 02: 37
      0
      I already wrote about the handle here, battle axes and axes of justice always have a round, oval household, precisely because it is thin, if you make it oval it will break. This, by the way, is the first sign of definition, you see an oval eyelet, definitely not a combat one, household life is unambiguous. There are plenty of Egyptian tools, though they are almost all stone. As for the reeds, he smiled, you don’t know the climate of Egypt during the time of the pharaohs. And how they drill a stone, a million vids have already been laid out, nothing complicated, for a long time, yes, but there is nowhere to hurry for a couple of days, you can drill
      1. Tagir Kilmakaev
        Tagir Kilmakaev 15 December 2022 13: 04
        0
        Can you do anything with a stone tool? Well, shoe a flea, make an emerald cut, or cut boards (see the Cairo Museum), a boat from the ship museum at the Pyramid? And I can ask such questions...
        1. icelord
          icelord 25 December 2022 15: 23
          0
          I'm not, but there are plenty of vids on the net