"Moscow, burnt by fire". Background of the tragedy

Johann Christian Ohlendorf. Moscow fire in 1812

The grandiose fire that practically destroyed Moscow in September 1812 shook the imagination of contemporaries both in Russia and abroad. The painful memory of him was preserved even in the time of Lermontov, a line from whose poem became the title of the article. At present, few people imagine the scale of work to restore the burnt city. Most people believe that Moscow was reborn very quickly and literally on its own.

Meanwhile, construction work in Moscow after 1812 can be compared (and compared) only with the construction of St. Petersburg from scratch. The restoration of the city continued until 1843, when the State Commission for the Construction of Moscow finally finished its work. Lermontov's famous poem "Borodino" had already been published (in 1837), and the poet himself died in 1841, and Moscow had not yet been fully rebuilt after that fire. Only at the first stage, a huge amount of 5 million rubles was allocated from the state treasury for restoration work. Since Alexander I, who wanted to please the "civilized Europeans", refused reparations and compensation, depriving Russia of all the fruits of many years of hardest wars against Napoleonic France, Moscow had to be rebuilt at the expense of Russian peasants. Five new factories were built for the production of bricks, and soldiers stationed near Moscow took an active part in the construction of new buildings. At the same time, by the way, (in 1819) the bed of the Neglinka (Neglinnaya) River was blocked with a brick vault, through which the Kuznetsky Bridge was once thrown, and it was she who once separated the Kutafya tower of the Moscow Kremlin from Troitskaya.

But why did Moscow burn down at all? After all, the Russians were by no means going to surrender it, and Napoleon, even in a dream, could not imagine that he would ever occupy this city.

Bonaparte's plans

Starting a war with Russia, the French emperor was not going to destroy the Russian state, dividing it into several parts, or conquer Russia, or even change the ruling dynasty. Jean-Baptiste Marbeau stated:

"The only goal of the emperor when entering the war with Russia was to restore the Continental blockade."

Napoleon himself said to Berthier:

“I don’t want anything bad for Alexander; it's not with Russia that I'm at war... I have only one enemy - England.

When planning the campaign of 1812, Bonaparte called it the "Second Polish War" (the first was in 1807) and expected that it would end after several frontier battles. He said then:

“I will open the campaign by crossing the Neman. I will finish it in Smolensk and Minsk. There I will stop. I will strengthen these two points and take care of the organization of the Lithuanian state in Vilna, where my apartment will be.

In Vilna, Bonaparte, by the way, having crossed the Neman, was delayed for 18 days, but did not create any Lithuanian state, as he understood that this would complicate peace negotiations. Lithuania, which the Poles were eager to get, Napoleon intended to return to Alexander in exchange for additional concessions. That is, he was going to act like Peter I, who, in his own words, during the Great Northern War, ordered to occupy Finland only in order to later exchange it for something more necessary.

For decades, there have been disputes about why Napoleon went towards Moscow. Apocryphal anecdotes about his reasoning, they say, if he "will occupy Kyiv, hit Russia in the legs, Petersburg in the head, and Moscow in the heart”, cannot and should not be taken into account. It must be understood that in those days Moscow was a city of retired nobles, nostalgic for the years of previous reigns. Great politics and great careers were made in St. Petersburg, where Moscow old men in old-fashioned camisoles were treated with irony and even with outright mockery. Moscow at the beginning of the XNUMXth century was just a large provincial city and had practically no political significance (and strategic, too). And one can hardly take seriously the words of Napoleon, which he told the envoy of Alexander I Balashov - that he would sign a peace treaty in Moscow. In the mouth of the emperor, this is clearly a “figure of speech”, which was supposed to frighten and emphasize the seriousness of intentions. Bonaparte had no real plans to occupy Moscow.

But the movement to St. Petersburg was more promising. It created a direct threat to Alexander I and the highest aristocrats of the empire. In the event of a real danger, they, regardless of the wishes of the emperor, would certainly demand that he enter into negotiations with Napoleon. And these people knew how to "persuade". The “weak and crafty” Alexander, the grandson and son of the murdered emperors, was well aware of the “stranglehold” that “limits the autocracy in Russia.” The secret evacuation of the jewels of the imperial family to the city of Vytegra in the Olonets province testifies to the tsar's fear of Bonaparte's attack on St. Petersburg. Here they stayed until the spring of 1813.

Some argue that the movement to Petersburg called into question the supply of food and fodder to the huge army, since the terrain here was less fertile. However, the non-chernozem lands of Belarus and the Smolensk province could not boast of rich harvests, and, as we know, they did not provide for the needs of either the Great Army of Bonaparte or the Russian army pursuing it, which eventually suffered huge non-combat losses on the way to Vilna, comparable to French. Therefore, if supply issues are considered as decisive, Bonaparte should have gone in the direction of the black earth provinces of Novorossia. For the Russian Empire, the loss of the Black Sea coast was unacceptable, and the Russian troops themselves would have come even to Yekaterinoslav, even to Odessa. How several decades later they went to the Crimea - to the besieged Sevastopol.

The fact that the distance from Vilna to St. Petersburg is much less than to Moscow speaks in favor of the decision to move to the capital: 651 km versus 791 km in a straight line, and 721 km versus 901 km along the highway. And the supply of the Great Army moving along the coast could be organized by sea. Moreover, it is known that up to Moscow, Napoleon's Grand Army relied only on its supplies. So even to St. Petersburg they would be quite enough. In addition, it should be taken into account that in this case it would be necessary to attack not on the native Russian lands, but on “foreign regions”. Many Poles lived in Lithuania, and the local nobles were fairly Polonized. Russian agent Maxim von Fock reported that in Vilna, where Alexander I had recently danced at the ball,

“The French were received with great joy ... great feasts were given to them; the whole University, on the conviction of Prince Dominik Radzwil, swore allegiance to Napoleon.

And in Latvia and Estonia, the Baltic barons, whose ancestors once conquered these lands, maintained a strict order from ancient times. They retained their power over them in the Russian Empire. Napoleon could hope for a more loyal attitude of the inhabitants of these areas. And only one corps of Wittgenstein, numbering about 20 thousand people, covered St. Petersburg.

Karl Clausewitz believed that Napoleon chose the Moscow direction because the best road led to this city from the western borders. But after all, his army did not just move, but pursued the retreating Russian troops. It was they who determined the movement of the Great Army of Bonaparte. And therefore, based on the foregoing, the most plausible movement of Napoleon towards Moscow can be explained by his lack of a clear offensive plan. Bonaparte did not care where to go: he simply sought to give the Russians a general battle. And it didn't matter where exactly it would happen - near Riga, near Kyiv, or near Polotsk. He wanted to quickly defeat the Russian army and immediately make peace. Napoleon's troops followed the armies of Barclay de Tolly and Bagration, who, retreating, led him first to Smolensk, and then to Moscow.

Movement of the Grand Army of Bonaparte

Even before the start of the campaign, Bonaparte told the archchancellor of his empire, Jean-Jacques Cambaceres, that the war with Russia should continue for two years. During the first, a bridgehead along the Dvina and Dnieper should be prepared, after which the army should be placed in winter quarters. And in the second year, in the event of Alexander's refusal to make peace, continue the offensive.

Napoleon said the same to Metternich:

“My enterprise belongs to those whose decision is given by patience. The triumph will be the lot of the more patient. I will open the campaign by crossing the Neman. I will finish it in Smolensk and Minsk. I will stop there."

Suger claims that already in Vilna, Bonaparte said to General Sebastiani:

“I will not cross the Dvina. To go further during this year is to go towards your own doom.”

July 28, 1812 Emperor Napoleon says in Vitebsk:

“Here I will stop! I must look around, give the troops a rest and organize Poland."

But still sends the army to Smolensk. And not only generals and marshals, but also many officers, and then even privates, are increasingly beginning to look back and think about the future.

On Saint Helena, Napoleon wrote:

“My regiments, amazed that after so many difficult and deadly transitions the fruits of their efforts are constantly moving away from them, began to look with concern at the distance separating them from France.”

In general, everyone understood the perniciousness of continuing this campaign. And, of course, Bonaparte himself understood this. The French emperor saw that his army was weakening, leaving garrisons in the occupied cities, suffering huge non-combatant losses, and in the first month alone lost 20 thousand horses. He really wanted to stop the army in Smolensk.

Armand de Caulaincourt recalled:

“The whole nature of this war, during which both sides mutually destroyed each other, and we did not achieve any other result than winning territory, which we did not want at all, all this made the emperor think hard and strengthened his desire not to go further and try to tie up negotiation."

The quartermaster of the Grand Army, General Philippe-Paul de Ségur, wrote:

"Everyone felt they had gone too far."

Moreover, he claimed that already in Smolensk Bonaparte himself

"He was seized with a fever of indecision, and his eyes alternately turned to Kyiv, Petersburg and Moscow."

Segur also reports on the conversation between Napoleon and General Duroc:

“The emperor answered him that he himself perfectly sees that the Russians are trying to lure him.”

Unable to make a decision, Bonaparte stayed in Smolensk for 7 days. And the English General Wilson, who was at the headquarters of Barclay de Tolly, sent a letter to London with the words:

"Everything is lost, Napoleon stopped in Smolensk."

And after 4 days, having learned about the continuation of the movement of the Great Army, he sends another letter in which he joyfully reports:

"We are saved! The French are coming to Moscow!”

As we can see, not only Barclay de Tolly, but also many French generals, and even the Briton Wilson, are aware of the destructiveness of Napoleon's movement towards Moscow. But for some reason, Bagration and some other Russian generals do not understand this, who accuse Barclay of betrayal and passionately desire to enter into a general battle with the superior forces of Bonaparte's Great Army. That is, to do exactly what the emperor of the French wants so much now. One involuntarily recalls the famous words of Napoleon, who claimed that in Russia in 1812 there were no good generals left, and Bagration was experienced, but stupid. However, Barclay de Tolly, already cursed by many, is unshakable and decided at the cost of his reputation to save Russia. And the specter of victory in the general battle with the escaping Russian troops beckons Bonaparte, promising the end of the war and the conclusion of the desired peace. Napoleon took a chance - nevertheless he gave the order to continue the attack on Moscow. His desire to win the war quickly, in one year, led the Grand Army to disaster.

Let's listen to Caulaincourt again:

“The emperor was not one of those people who retreat. The sight of the troops and all these militant maneuvers made his head spin. The wise reflections to which he indulged in Smolensk gave way to the charm of glory ... In a word, he now found as many reasonable arguments in favor of moving forward as 48 hours ago in favor of remaining in Smolensk; we were still chasing glory, or rather fate, which stubbornly prevented the emperor from following his own sound intentions and wise plans.

Felician von Mirbach. Napoleon in Smolensk

The fate of Moscow

So, the Russian troops rolled back to Moscow, but the topic of the possible abandonment of this city was taboo. Even after the battle of Borodino, many were sure that another battle would be given, and Kutuzov's decision to leave Moscow came as a shock to everyone. These jingoistic moods, prevailing both in the leadership of the army and in the administration of Moscow, led to tragedy. There were no plans for evacuation, if not material, then at least historical values. Unexpected for everyone, the news of the surrender of the city led to panic and an exodus of both Moscow officials and citizens who had lost control over the situation.

K. Lebedev. Flight of residents from Moscow

Kutuzov, who to the last assured everyone that Moscow would not be surrendered, perfectly understood what the emperor's reaction would be. Moreover, he had already informed him of the victory at Borodino, having received 100 thousand rubles and the rank of field marshal. Therefore, in a letter dated September 4, having already left Moscow, the newly minted field marshal reassured the emperor:

“All treasures, the arsenal, and almost all property, both public and private, have been taken out of Moscow.”

In fact, huge reserves were left in Moscow weapons, food and fodder. Among other things, the French got 156 guns, 74 guns, 974 sabers, 39 gun shells. This is all the more strange because at the end of 846 there were only 27 rifles on average for one Russian battalion (about a thousand people). And even in 119, 1812 Russian soldiers out of every thousand were unarmed. Soldiers who did not get guns had to arm themselves at the expense of their dead comrades. What (apart from negligence and slovenliness) prevented at the end of August and the beginning of September 776 from opening the arsenal and taking at least guns, so that later they could be distributed to unarmed soldiers?

608 old Russian banners and more than 1000 standards were also left in Moscow. And it was already the greatest shame, for which no one has ever been held responsible.

The French also got huge stocks of noble estates, merchants' shops and some, but supplies of ordinary and humble people. On Saint Helena, Napoleon told Dr. O'Meara:

“I found myself in the midst of a beautiful city, supplied with provisions for a whole year. Many owners (of houses) left little notes asking the French officers who would occupy their property to take care of the furniture and other things; they said that they had left everything that we might need, and that they hoped to return in a few days, as soon as the emperor Alexander settled all matters, that then they would see us with delight. Many ladies stayed, because they knew that we never offended the inhabitants either in Berlin or in Vienna.

But not only houses, merchant shops and an arsenal were left, but also about 22,5 thousand wounded soldiers and non-commissioned officers (some authors write about 30 thousand). Yermolov later recalled "heartbreaking groans of the wounded, left in the power of the enemy". They are "entrusted to the philanthropy of the French troops”- and almost all died in the Moscow fire. Carl von Clausewitz wrote to his wife:

“The streets were full of seriously wounded. It’s scary to think that most of them burned down.”

.
In general, the situation, frankly, was nowhere worse, and even the rank and file understood this. The extreme decline in the morale of the Russian troops, among others, is reported by such well-informed memoirists as N. N. Raevsky (commander of the VII Infantry Corps), S. I. Maevsky (head of Kutuzov’s office) and A. I. Kutuzov). The authority of the commander-in-chief reached its lowest point, and, according to A. B. Golitsin (Kutuzov’s orderly), from Moscow he “I left so that, as much as possible, I would not meet anyone". The passage of the army through the city on September 2 (14) was led by Barclay de Tolly, who spent 18 hours in the saddle.

A. Semenov, A. Sokolov. The Russian army and residents leave Moscow in 1812.

The Governor-General of Moscow F.V. Rostopchin recalled that in the army then they did not hesitate to call Kutuzov "the darkest prince».

In the next article, we will talk about this interesting and peculiar person, whom Catherine II called "Crazy Fedka". The wife of this "Russian patriot", an irreconcilable fighter against French influence, according to E. Tarle, was "Frenchized Catholic". And his daughter married a relative of the quartermaster of Napoleon's Great Army, quotes from whose memoirs are given in this article. She became a well-known writer and is currently one of the five most popular authors of children's books written in French.

Postage stamps dedicated to Sophie de Segur, nee Sofya Rostopchina

Many consider F. Rostopchin the "Russian Herostratus", responsible for the fires that practically destroyed Moscow, but also became fatal for Bonaparte's Grand Army.

O. Kiprensky. Portrait of F. Rostopchin

Comments

[Korsar4]

A classic example: "Entrance - ruble, exit - two." Whatever Napoleon planned: the river of life flows, and people often just flounder in it.

You can look at the plans of the quarters of Moscow, engulfed in fire. But those who were bound will not be removed.
And, of course, as always, the restoration fell on the shoulders of people.

However, everything is changing, and try to catch Moscow before the fire, wandering its streets.
Unless their names speak.

[Basil50]

And I am surprised by those who refer to * confessions later *, they say * did not want - forced *.
Leaving MOSCOW, no one could have imagined such a brutal treatment of the population and the wounded, and even more so that the French, with their accomplices, would start massive fires.
The French themselves confessed to setting fire to churches in order to melt the church domes. Some domes were thrown down to make it easier to peel off the gilding.
It was later, having already escaped and fearing retribution, the French blamed the arson on the Poles. then *local*.
Once, on the FIELD OF BORODINSKY, the presenter proclaimed - * IOSIF VISSARIONOVICH KUTUZOV appeared on the field *. How alarmed the French-Poles were, especially after the joyful shouts of greetings in RUSSIAN from the audience.

[parusnik]

The manic nature of Bonaparte with his Continental Blockade is amazing. Partly, the war on the Iberian Peninsula is connected with it.

[VLR]

The period of the Continental blockade is a unique time when their favorite weapon, "hellish sanctions", was turned against the Anglo-Saxons. The other end of this weapon, however, hit the allies of France. As now, the United States turned against Russia is hitting the satellites of the new empire, and even the States themselves.

[parusnik]

What is surprising is how Napoleon went for it. There was an experience of Great Britain itself, and not a long time ago, when the British tried to arrange a blockade of the USA and how the blockade successfully failed.

[vladcub]

Lyosh, I welcome "the blockade has successfully failed" here it is necessary to take into account the historical-ethnic component. The frogs have long-standing "sympathy" for the Britons and Napoleon could reason like this: what can the Britons do, after all, they are suckers, and I .... The Franco-Corsican ambition played a cruel joke

[parusnik]

Good evening, but the British blockade of the USA failed .. the example is negative .. He didn’t think of it .. But everything is simple, as long as there is at least one neutral, the blockade is not possible. Let him down, his gloomy genius ..

[Tavrik]

It's just that the article does not disclose the military preparations of Alexander in 1811-1812 on the western borders. There were a lot of interesting...

[VLR]

On the military preparations of Alexander 1 in 1811-1812. it is necessary to write a separate article - no, even a series of articles. I was already going to write one article - specifically about the Moscow fire, but it turned out to be three. From the introduction to the planned article, a separate one turned out - this one. Another article appeared thanks to a couple of paragraphs about Rostopchin - as they say, "revealed the topic." And the last article is actually about the fire.

[vladcub]

"and even in the States themselves" in the name of democracy, one can tolerate it.
Moreover, these sanctions should: "throw out a competitor": push Russia out of the arms market.
Ultimately, these sanctions will enrich: "cannon kings" and IT companies

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Thank you very much Valery for an interesting topic for discussion. I sincerely hope for a continuation of the article.
Regards, Vlad!

[VLR]

Yes, there are two more very interesting articles on this topic ahead. The first is about Rostopchin, a very strange, peculiar and interesting person, about whom not much is known, and his activities in Moscow. The second is about the Great Fire of Moscow, its causes and consequences.

[Mikhail Sidorov]

If my memory serves me, it was Rostopchin who was against arming the militia, that is, the peasants (I'm talking about the abandoned guns and the lost military property) He argued that weapons can be distributed to the peasants, but then how to take them back. Also problems with the supply of the army before the battle of Borodino had a hand in it.

[VLR]

That's right, I'll talk about it in the next article. They still remembered Pugachev and their peasants, many landlords were more afraid than the "cultured" French, with whom they hoped to negotiate.

[Pane Kohanku]

That's right, I'll talk about it in the next article.

Will it be about the Catherine and Pavlovian period of Rostopchin's life? This is what he allegedly discovered during the analysis of Catherine's papers, the so-called. "the third letter of Alexei Orlov from Ropsha".
Valery, thanks for the article.

[VLR]

Yes, sure

[Pane Kohanku]

We are waiting! Thanks again.

[know]

It turns out that Rostopchin was smarter than the current Kiev authorities, who handed out weapons to everyone, without even asking for documents, handed out? And for a long time now it will be sold from under the floor, and shoot here and there.

[Mikhail Sidorov]

It turns out that Rostopchin was smarter than the current Kiev authorities, who handed out weapons to everyone, without even asking for documents, handed out?

Does not work. The situations are completely different. Kutuzov was waiting for reinforcements after Borodino, but he was not. Under the influence of Rostopchin, regiments were not formed and it was decided not to give a second battle (well, there were other reasons)

[Catfish]

Alexey , since 2014, weapons in Ukraine have already been sold, and, moreover, any, both ours and imported. And now, at night in Kyiv, SBU officers open fire on any person with a weapon outside the checkpoint without warning. By the way, the SBU has machine guns with silencers, "so as not to frighten the sleeping respectable citizens."

[astra wild2]

"was against arming the militia" I have long read that before Borodino, Mamontov's militia regiment came to the Russian army. The commander himself received a sword: "For courage", and the militias were used in trench work

[astra wild2]

"very interesting articles" Valery, when did you have boring materials? Even materials on the mafia and cosanostra. They were monotonous, but interesting.

[burigaz2010]

Thank you Valery for the article! I want to speak about Alexander 2, this stupid kinglet pumped everything. No reparations, no territorial acquisitions, nothing!!! And the main question is, what kind of troops did our troops go to Europe?

[Daniil Konovalenko]

no territorial acquisitions

... But what about Poland?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

no territorial acquisitions

... But what about Poland?

One of the biggest mistakes of the 19th century! We needed the Duchy of Warsaw like a cart's fifth wheel. The grandmother of Vleksandr Pavlovich was wiser, leaving Russia within the borders of Russian (Little Russian) lands.

[VLR]

Yes, smart people (to whom Alexander 1, alas, did not belong) understood the perniciousness of the annexation of Poland. J. de Maistre put it very figuratively when he said that for Russia Poland became the "burning shirt of the centaur" (an indication of the myth of the death of Hercules).

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Yes, smart people (to whom Alexander 1, alas, did not belong)

..Somehow I didn’t shine .. I got hemorrhoids, for the country ..

[Korsar4]

What does Alexander II have to do with it?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: burigaz2010

Thank you Valery for the article! I want to speak about Alexander 2, this stupid kinglet pumped everything. No reparations, no territorial acquisitions, nothing!!! And the main question is, what kind of troops did our troops go to Europe?

As Sergei, Alexander II correctly noted, in this case, nothing to do with it. The article is about his great-uncle Alexander I.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Yes, I sealed it, didn’t notice .. didn’t edit it .. Oh, grief, grief for me ... alas, alas, alas for me, alas for me (alas, 1000 times, turning into a howl and howl) (would suggest what else to indicate from the lamentations)

[Catfish]

How is it? They are all bastards!

[Korsar4]

“What would you suggest for your part?
- What is there to offer?
And then they write, write ... Congress, some Germans ... The head swells. Take everything, and share it ”(c).

[Catfish]

[quote] Take everything, and share it ”(c).
There are all sorts of ideas.

[depressant]

There are all sorts of ideas.

And I went to the front, I'm in Telegram. Who would pull me out, I myself can not.

[Catfish]

I don’t go there, and in general, I went on reconnaissance for two days.

[depressant]

Looking for sugar in stores? )))

[Catfish]

No, I was in the bath in good company, Sergey Fil and Alexander.

[depressant]

And how Sergei Vladimirovich Phil - hee-hee! - ended up in Ryazan? The loss of the forum is great, even without the right to correspond, and great, it turns out, is your gain in the form of its society. Especially Alexandra. I guess Privalov)))

[Catfish]

No, not Privalov, but also a very good person.

[depressant]

Well, the bath is good. By the way, in Tarkovsky's films, water is a symbol of cleansing from the past, a rethinking of life. And in "Stalker", and in "Nostalgia". And in the book "It's hard to be a god," the same Strugatsky boy says: "You can't wash away sins with water!"
Funny, right? On the other hand, you can't wash it off... It sounds menacing. And there is no contradiction.

[Korsar4]

And Brownie Kuzya washed himself in the bath - he began a new life.

[depressant]

Here I hear about this brownie - for the umpteenth time! - and I understand that something in life is missing.

[Korsar4]

“If curd is put inside,
It turns out a pie
If they put it on top,
That is called a cheesecake ”(c).

Don't cover everything.

And successful aphorisms, and even uttered by glorious voices, deserve to be used and disseminated. At least in the mood.

[Catfish]

"Did the housekeeper make vodka?" (c)

[Korsar4]

“Again, I wanted wine
expensive to buy in a ruble and more, but the merchant was an honest man; take,
says, around six hryvnia per bottle, and labels stick what
order! Already released the wine! We can say that it's honorable. I tried
a glass, and it smells of cloves, and smells of rosan, and something else. How does he
be cheap when so many expensive perfumes are put into it! And a lot of money
six hryvnia per bottle; and it's worth giving. And nothing more to pay
we live on a salary ”(c).

[depressant]

Mood? Other!
"The sounds of wonderful songs fell silent,
Do not give them again:
The shelter of the singer is sullen and narrow,
And his seal is on his lips.

To the land of the living
dead at the table.
Don't get away from the plague
and into the grave - a stake!

[Korsar4]

This is clear. But a person has more than one layer of emotions.

I don't know if this is acceptable, but it comes to mind:

“Also, when you are fasting, do not be despondent like the hypocrites, for they put on gloomy faces in order to appear to people who are fasting. I tell you truly, they are already receiving their reward.” Mt 6:16

[Pane Kohanku]

I don’t go there, and in general, I went on reconnaissance for two days.

Uncle Kostya, did you personally put yourself on Jack Carver? But he left the red shirt!

[Catfish]

you personally put yourself on Jack

Since childhood, I wanted to visit the islands in the ocean, but it didn’t work out in kind, so at least that’s how it was.

[Pane Kohanku]

Since childhood, I wanted to visit the islands in the ocean, but it didn’t work out in kind, so at least that’s how it was.

Everyone wanted. But you were in the Far East. And he overdid so many weapons in his hands - everyone will be envious. And you are a good uncle, and you draw beautifully, and in general - the most exceptional!

[Catfish]

Well, Kol, thank you, I haven't been praised like that for a long time. True, very nice.
Only an hour before I got out of bed, now I'm reading about Rostopchin.

[Pane Kohanku]

Well, Kol, thank you, I haven't been praised like that for a long time.

I still won't praise you enough! yes, come. There was a good company there.

[Yura]

Fight Lyudmila to the end, fight where you can, as best you can, as you can, this is important, there are a lot of young people in Telegram.

Quote: depressant

There are all sorts of ideas.

And I went to the front, I'm in Telegram. Who would pull me out, I myself can not.

[Korsar4]

“I also had one like this - I made wings. I put him on a barrel of gunpowder - let him fly! (from).

[Catfish]

So the baron was still not the first.

[Korsar4]

“What was, is what will be; and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

[Catfish]

"Everything will repeat itself. There will be a thirty-year war, and a hundred-year war, and again they will burn people who dare to say that the earth is round. And again they will deceive poor Jacob, forcing him to work for seven years for free and slipping him an ugly, short-sighted wife, Leah, instead of a full-breasted Rachel" (from)

[Korsar4]

“Panikovsky will sell you all, buy and sell again, but more expensive” (c).

[Catfish]

Panikovsky can do anything! But he is unlikely to master Rachel.

[depressant]

The baron was on another planet. The question of superiority is irrelevant.

[Catfish]

The baron was on another planet.

What is it, I wonder?))

[depressant]

The comment was deleted, I don't remember what was there. It seems to be about Mars. Baron was on Earth))

[Catfish]

Luda, to be honest, I don’t understand what the Baron has to do with Mars as a planet, well, as a God of War, it goes without saying.))

[depressant]

Kostya, sorry, I forgot what was in the deleted comment! Or did I answer you? Looked on the thread, didn't find it

[Catfish]

Well, okay, Valery and I are talking about the airship in Rostopchina, take a look.

[depressant]

I'll go now. By the way, I did glance at the graters about the airship, but I got bogged down in Telegram, everything is very frank there, no politeness, everything without hints right on the forehead! )))

[Catfish]

Even without Telegram, this is enough for me to live.

[depressant]

Kostya !!!
I hope you are not at the forefront?)))
And the same demon in the ribs, and they ran. I guess there are verbal battles?)))

[Catfish]

I act moderately, but convincingly.))

[depressant]

And I'm on the telegram - I'm off!
But, here's the thing ... VO brought me up with its own censorship, and I yell culturally - culturally, but I yell !!! )))
How do I miss this here?

[Catfish]

And what, on the spot and have no one to talk to live?

[depressant]

There is! But ... We are opposite in our assessment of events. I have an ambivalent relationship with them. My army is fighting! And I am anxious about the army, I am for it. And the coffins went. Our Russian guys, handsome, lie down in the ground. And on the other hand, the drain is being imposed by the vile oligarchy, they are probing us on the telegram, they say, how can we stop? And we stand for the army - to the death! We will not forgive coffins, if anything.

[Catfish]

Yes, I have about the same attitude, but there are a lot of details, I don’t want to talk about them, the language has already been erased.

[depressant]

Yes, and I have ... erased. Chatted.
Here it will heal, the time will come for conversations. Maybe on "Opinions" I'll come off. Or maybe not. VO is full of worthless trolls, bots. On the telegram, unanimity reigns. They are unanimous with me and they visit VO, but there is no lively, quick communication when it doesn’t matter what they think of you. In other words, there is no traumatic situation on the telegram. Of course, there is also a system for evaluating statements, but for some reason you don’t care how you are evaluated. On VO it becomes painful, tense, everything is written with an eye on it. I even have a hard time with history. To write a worthwhile comment, you need to read additional literature, knowledge is often not enough, and the perception of your work by colleagues is sluggish. Connoisseurs of the issue in such cases are wary. But say "Hello! Oh, I have no time now, I'll come in the evening!" - such a bang. And I'm sad. Why try to learn something, give an assessment?

[Catfish]

I have a simpler attitude to this, for some things, of course, it’s a shame, but it’s all passing. The main thing is that we have people who want to understand you, and the rest is not important.

[vladcub]

"to speak about Alexander 2" is it possible, to be more precise: what and where reparations did Alexander 2 "fail"?

[Daniil Konovalenko]

It is very interesting with the blockade, Alexander II, who is not very fond of the British, joined the blockade with pleasure. But then he was disappointed, since the French goods were inferior in quality to the English ones, he even blamed Napoleon. Actually, the simple Russian people, as it were, did not suffer much from the lack of English goods, and those that were smuggled, there were roads for a simple layman, mainly the noble society "suffered". Plus grain exports, the UK was one of the main exporters.

[VLR]

The problem was that the Russian nobles wanted to live like the same British or Germans, but did not want to develop industry, because this was not a lordly business. And there was no one else - only the nobles had free funds. The nobles drove raw materials abroad, getting in return the opportunity to ride in Paris, Rome and London, buy fashionable clothes and force palaces with foreign furniture. And the more Russian nobles became pseudo-Europeanized. the worse was the position of the peasants, who paid for all these pleasures.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

It is very similar to the situation in Russia that arose after 1991 ..

only the nobles had free funds. The nobles drove raw materials abroad, getting in return the opportunity to ride in Paris, Rome and London, buy fashionable clothes and force palaces with foreign furniture. And the more Russian nobles became pseudo-Europeanized. the worse was the position of the peasants, who paid for all these pleasures.

..

[Pane Kohanku]

It is very similar to the situation in Russia that arose after 1991 ..

Removed from the tongue ... Times go by, to know does not change in habits.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Yes, since then, it has not changed .. we drive raw materials, we buy their products from our raw materials ..

[Trilobite Master]

The question is not what exactly we sell. We sell what we have, what we can sell. The raw material is the raw material.
The question is what do we buy with the money we earn. Machine tools or yachts, technology or diamonds, we build factories and hospitals or palaces and churches.

[Pane Kohanku]

Machine tools or yachts, technology or diamonds, we build factories and hospitals or palaces and churches.

Both of you are right. I agree.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

They threw a handkerchief, as a sign of reconciliation, Whatever the hilts, do not grab

[Pane Kohanku]

Whatever the hilts, do not grab

Uh-huh. As in a joke about Lieutenant Rzhevsky. Which, at the moment of a fierce battle, was galloping at the enemy, wanted to draw a saber, but accidentally, in a hurry, instead of a hilt, felt for his genital organ, and snatched it out. He killed three before he noticed!

[Daniil Konovalenko]

As in a joke about Lieutenant Rzhevsky

[Pane Kohanku]

As in a joke about Lieutenant Rzhevsky

Otherwise, kill each other with Mikhail with you-know-what, like a well-known lieutenant. Joke!

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Otherwise, kill each other with Mikhail with you-know-what

[Trilobite Master]

Wow, I thought this thing was only for chopping nuts! ..

(c) Mowgli

[Catfish]

Very informative, and most importantly quite thematic commentary.
I can only illustrate.

[Korsar4]

And another joke: "And you're right too."

[Pane Kohanku]

And another joke: "And you're right too."

About the rabbi?
- And one debater is right, and the other is right, and you, Monya, are also right.

[Korsar4]

Exactly. Nice to talk. Everything will end with mutual consent.

[Pane Kohanku]

And do not speak, my soul!

[Catfish]

We sell what we have, what we can sell

On the issue of trade and the Napoleonic army.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Dear Danil, Valery's work is about Alexander I. Alexander II is the son of Nicholas I, brother of Alexander I.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Ochepyatka.. or in the text of the comment is not noticeable

[Glory1974]

Napoleon followed the Russian army in order to give it a general battle and defeat it. After the defeat of the army, you can dictate your conditions for making peace. You can sit in Smolensk or any other city as much as you like, but as long as the army is intact, the war is not over. Therefore, if the Russian army retreated to St. Petersburg, Napoleon would go to St. Petersburg.
As you know, the Russian army was divided into three parts, and Napoleon tried to break them separately. But it didn't. Retreating and conducting rearguard battles, the Russian army evaded the general battle and united.

[astra wild2]

Valery, colleagues good morning. I am glad that Valery "returned" to Russia. Unfortunately, I have no time, I have to work, and then I will continue

[vladcub]

"the newly minted field marshal reassured the emperor" simply bred like a sucker.
I wonder if he thought about the future, what will the emperor say when he finds out the truth?

[VLR]

Kutuzov thought what the emperor would say if he knew about the true state of affairs right now: the probability of resignation in this case was 100%. And then - you look, and the situation will change for the better.

[lisikat2]

Valery, my opinion: Kutuzov acted as a diplomat, not a military man. Now, chat the emperor, and then the risk is minimal: 1) in the worst case, Alexander will not be up to Moscow. With the victory of Napoleon.
2) "The winner is not judged." You can always "Translate the arrows to Rastopchin. The king, in order not to look ridiculous, will pretend to believe

[depressant]

The farther into the forest, the more firewood ...
An attempt to catch up with the Russian army in the vast and not very plentiful Russian expanses of food is a combination of the excitement of a hunter chasing game with the fear of losing military leadership among the troops. In both cases, the scent was lost. The burden of previous decisions, experience crushed intuition, weakening over time. Any genius sooner or later runs into an insurmountable barrier.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

An attempt to catch up with the Russian army in the vast and not very plentiful Russian expanses of food is a combination of the excitement of a hunter chasing game with the fear of losing military leadership among the troops.

Scythian war. Although it should be noted that Darius returned with a large part of his army, unlike Napoleon.

[depressant]

Such a military term, isn't it? )))
Well, it was easier for Darius to keep the army. He didn’t drive in the cold, then he spat, waved his hand and said, “To hell with them!”

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

If according to Herodotus, then he started a war with the Scythians in the winter after the autumn storms. By the way, I also finished in the winter after the storms that destroyed the floating bridge

[depressant]

Was it really cold in Scythia? It's the south! Well, the rains are boring. But not the snow that lay down tightly for months, I almost said years. And not crackling-burning frost. This is now where Darius was, meter-long icicles. So, climate warming. Under Darius, they did not know.

[Illanatol]

Quote: VlR

The period of the Continental blockade is a unique time when their favorite weapon, "hellish sanctions", was turned against the Anglo-Saxons. The other end of this weapon, however, hit the allies of France.

It was the "continental blockade" that contributed to the development of industry in European countries, primarily in Germany (Prussia). So hitting the "other end" proved to be very useful.

[depressant]

Well, yes. such sanctions. Europe made a fuss and replaced other people's commodity items with its own. It's not easy now. And fuss, and replace. Skills are needed - to do both. A wish.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Trilobite Master

The question is what do we buy with the money we earn. Machine tools or yachts, technology or diamonds, we build factories and hospitals or palaces and churches.

Even this is not so important. You can sell raw materials, buy a yacht from foreigners, sell it at auction on the domestic market with a good markup, and invest the proceeds in the real sector (build a factory).
It is important not even "how", not the mechanism, but in whose interests, for whom all this is being done.

[depressant]

Sell ​​the yacht on the domestic market? Well, you don’t mean such yachts as Abramovich’s? Piece goods, ordered in advance, project, agreement with the future owner, his whims, construction only at certain foreign shipyards. Mmm... No, it won't work.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

The blockade is very interesting, Alexander II, not very fond of the British, gladly joined the blockade.

He (Alexander the First, actually) joined in order not to share the fate of his father, Emperor Paul, who did not want to join, which brought him to a forced death.
I suspect he experienced somewhat different emotions ..

[VLR]

In order not to repeat the fate of his father, Alexander just began to sabotage the continental blockade - because it was the British who were the main buyers of the products of the estates of Russian aristocrats. And these aristocrats were very dissatisfied with the termination of trade with the British, some were already beginning to determine the circumference of Alexander Pavlovich's neck by eye. And the British - to draw up the budget for the next "color revolution".

[Daniil Konovalenko]

So Paul I was killed not because he joined the Continental blockade, it didn’t exist yet, except somewhere in Napoleon’s brain, it was pecking. These were completely different reasons.
I’ll write as a joke: Pavel was a vampire, it’s not for nothing that they nailed him with something silver (once again this is a joke, otherwise I got tired of writing about a typo, each one individually)

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

: Paul was a vampire,

Crazy innovator.

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

something silver nailed

A cigarette case, it seems.

[Illanatol]

Quote: VlR

In order not to repeat the fate of his father, Alexander just began to sabotage the continental blockade - because it was the British who were the main buyers of the products of the estates of Russian aristocrats.

Pavel - actually became an ally of Napoleon, and therefore was killed by pro-English conspirators (because they had personal benefit from trade with England).
Alexander joined both the blockade and the anti-Napoleonic alliance. But it ended sadly - the defeat at Austrelitz and the Peace of Tilsit. Napoleon persuaded Alexander to cooperate more closely, but Alexander did not show compliance, which forced Napoleon to launch a campaign against Russia.
I see two reasons for this war:
1. The robbery of Russia would allow Napoleon to pay off creditors (primarily the Rothschilds).
2. Having occupied part of Russia, Napoleon would have used the occupied territories as a springboard for a campaign against India (the most important English colony), its conquest would have undermined the economic power of the British Empire.

[lisikat2]

"Killed by pro-English conspirators" The conspiracy was funded by the British ambassador to Russia. And Olga Zherebtsova was the liaison between the conspirators and the British ambassador.
It reminded me of 1918, when there was a so-called "conspiracy of ambassadors" - "The Case of Bruce Lockhart".
And there is a direct violation of the "Vienna Protocol"

[Ryazan87]

"Starting a war with Russia, the French emperor was not going to..."

What he was ultimately going to do is categorically incomprehensible, so many mutually exclusive statements he made then and after. Actually, the lack of a sane war plan is one of the key reasons for the defeat of Napoleon. Every war must have a clear, tangible goal. As for the continental blockade, the damage from its violation was for France in every way less than a military campaign by a 600-strong army in the presence of a Spanish front.

but he did not create any Lithuanian state, as he understood that this would complicate peace negotiations.

He simply created the Lithuanian General Government, under it the Commission of the Provisional Government of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and formed the Lithuanian army, parts of which would still take part in the campaign of 1813. Yes, it is quite possible that the Emperor regarded this embryo of the state as a "bargaining chip", he treated the Poles in much the same way.

But the movement to St. Petersburg was more promising. It created a direct threat to Alexander I and the highest aristocrats of the empire.

Due to the absence of airborne units in the Grand Army and the impossibility of landing an amphibious assault, there was of course no "immediate" threat. Well, they would move to ... Moscow. Bast on the cola, start over.

Some argue that the movement to Petersburg called into question the supply of food and fodder to the huge army, since the terrain here was less fertile.

The point is not soil fertility, but the availability of roads and the length of communications.

Therefore, if supply issues were considered decisive, Bonaparte should have gone in the direction of the black earth provinces of Novorossia.

Charles XII thought so too, yes. Napoleon, if anything, was aware of the results of his campaign.

For the Russian Empire, the loss of the Black Sea coast was unacceptable, and the Russian troops themselves would have come even to Yekaterinoslav, even to Odessa.

The Russian army would not lose operational contact with the enemy, even if he went to the Caucasus. What happened throughout the campaign.

that the distance from Vilna to St. Petersburg is much less than to Moscow: 651 km against 791 km in a straight line, and 721 km against 901 km along the highway.

Those. to advance from Vilna with the main forces through the Baltic? In the presence of a large Russian army retreating to Smolensk? It is difficult to invent a better way to stay with cut communications.

And the supply of the Great Army moving along the coast could be organized by sea.

It remains to persuade the Russian Baltic Fleet and the British squadron of Somarets not to interfere with this. To begin with, lift the naval blockade of Danzig.

Moreover, it is known that up to Moscow, Napoleon's Grand Army relied only on its supplies.

As a result, the loss of mobility (mass death of horses) and at least 150 thousand non-combat losses. The logistics were completely failed, which the French themselves do not deny.

And only one corps of Wittgenstein, numbering about 20 thousand people, covered St. Petersburg.

Add the Finnish corps of Steingel (about 30 thousand) and Essen in Riga (another 18 thousand) + all sorts of militias. And yes, the same capture of Riga under the domination of the allied fleet turned into a gloomy and tedious problem for the French, which they did not solve.

[lisikat2]

Ryazan, about the "Lithuanian army" I have not seen anywhere. Can you tell me where to read about it?

[VLR]

In the article "Polish troops in the Russian campaign of Napoleon in 1812" they are mentioned. Up to 15 thousand were recruited. They didn't play a big role.

[Ryazan87]

"... Bonaparte did not care where to go: he simply sought to give the Russians a general battle ....
... Even before the start of the campaign, Bonaparte told the archchancellor of his empire, Jean-Jacques Cambaceres, that the war with Russia should continue for two years.
Actually, here everything became clear))) Napoleon seemed to have lost his adequacy.

Even after the battle of Borodino, many were sure that another battle would be given, and Kutuzov's decision to leave Moscow came as a shock to everyone.

Kutuzov categorically did not want to give it. And, in principle, he had his own views on how to wage this war (and whether it is worth doing it in principle).

Kutuzov, who to the last assured everyone that Moscow would not be surrendered, perfectly understood what the emperor's reaction would be.

At that time, the reaction of the emperor did not bother him much (Kutuzov did not put Alexander in a penny). It is simply clear that no one has repealed the laws of the information war.

This is all the more strange because at the end of 1812 there were only 776 rifles on average for one Russian battalion (about a thousand people).

It is strange that the presence of non-combatants and the depot system in the regiments is ignored (one battalion in the regiment was engaged in training reinforcements without participating in hostilities). So these calculations in the "average" should be taken with significant amendments. In principle, the issue of supplying Russian troops with small arms in 1812 is much more complicated, but here it is necessary to write a separate article, and not deal with dubious calculations.
The main problem was, oddly enough, lead. It was all imported. As for the Moscow guns, they were largely simply broken. Guns? Assorted from the most different times, often with damaged gun carriages. Where to take horses for sledding? Why drag them when it is necessary to make a quick march maneuver and the presence of 600 guns in the army (which, thanks to Arakcheev, was at least somehow standardized)?

608 old Russian banners and more than 1000 standards were also left in Moscow.

This, of course, is a shameful and shameful loss. moral character.

But not only houses, merchant shops and an arsenal were left, but also about 22,5 thousand wounded soldiers and non-commissioned officers

Very bitter and cruel, but most of them would simply not have endured transportation and would have greatly slowed down the advance of the army. It should be noted that the French, leaving Moscow, did exactly the same. This moment is well described in Norov's memoirs.

The Governor-General of Moscow F. V. Rostopchin recalled that in the army then they did not hesitate to call Kutuzov "the darkest prince."

Barclay's mothers were so simple. People's emotions are understandable, but they cannot be guided by them when making decisions on which the fate of the country depends.

[Trilobite Master]

Good two comments.
I can only agree. He himself has already written something similar several times on similar topics, especially on the topic of the attack on St. Petersburg.
In short, I agree.

[lisikat2]

I wish you all good health.
Valery, unfortunately I read it in the morning, but I am writing only now. You know how I now envy those who can write comments at any time.
I get tired of splitting: to read the material and keep up: to hear and answer the sick.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote from lisikat2

I get tired of splitting: to read the material and keep up: to hear and answer the sick.

Either work or have fun.

[depressant]

Why didn't they evacuate immediately? Napoleon entered Moscow a week after Borodino, it was possible to take out a lot of valuables. They didn't take it out.
I am inclined to believe that there were many spies. Napoleon, having heard about the evacuation, could enter Moscow on an accelerated march, and there would be many casualties among the unsuspecting rich. In general, this question is not very clear to me. Well, Kutuzov... Well, others... It's cloudy.

[Ermak_Timofeich]

Most people believe that Moscow was reborn very quickly and literally on its own.

The fire itself is ""... this is a glorious path for many ..." There are no cities in Russia that have been burned several times and restored.

It is terrible to think that most of them burned down.

How familiar. But no one pays attention to "think". See, of course, no one saw. But - "think" .... Then it remains only to replicate what stands for "think".

[lisikat2]

Valery, before it's too late, take the order: "Historical portraits of Catherine's nobles" Rastopchin, Panin.
Masons and Russia. Or something like that.
Probably the "Masons" will be the most interesting.

[VLR]

I have an article about Freemasons, if you haven't read it, take a look:
https://topwar.ru/152413-frankmasony-mify-i-realnost.html
"Freemasons: myths and reality"

[Maks1995]

But the overwhelming majority of people do not believe and do not like to remember the wounded and archives left in Moscow.
Not comme il faut.
After all, Kutuzov and the rest are such darlings, so they took care of the people, that everything was radiant with us, that there was nothing to discuss ((((

good article, as a reminder of that time.

[depressant]

In those days, the war was like that. The wounded were often left at the mercy of the winner, that is, they were simply abandoned, hiding behind the laws of honor allegedly inherent in the enemy - the aristocracy fought! By the beginning of the 20th century, they tried to take away the wounded during the retreat, often it was no longer worth hoping for the humanity of the enemy. And since the wounded are a heavy burden when maneuvering and unprofitable for the state, the task then and now is reduced to not so much killing as injuring the soldiers and officers of the opposite side as much as possible. For the active army and the enemy state is greatly weakened.

[Maks1995]

This is understandable "War in lace"

It's about something else. The wounded non-transportables were taken not to the surrounding towns, where it was easier to feed them in parts, but in one crowd, apparently leaving neither doctors nor any wounded senior officers, completely abandoning them.
Judging by the confusion with the data, even the documents are few, not formalized normally.
But the fire department was completely taken out.

Throwing archives, weapons, banners, etc., which is listed in the article.

Okay, this happens.

But everything burned down, people too, no one was punished, everyone tried to pretend that nothing had happened. Well, after a hundred years, they began to remember, ah, the ancient documents were gone.
And after 2 hundred years, oh, and people seem to have burned down. Yes, reluctantly. Or maybe they didn’t burn out, but disappeared somehow, Russians don’t leave their own?

Although everyone understood, but these are commoners, what to remember about them, they defeated Bonaparte ...
""The streets were full of seriously wounded. It's terrible to think that most of them burned down.""


"It was already the greatest shame, for which no one has ever been held responsible."

It just reminds me a lot...

[depressant]

In fact, I read the article at about 10 am. And then, as always these days, she went to war in Telegram.
Here's what's interesting. Napoleon is present, his plans are visible, there are memories. Where is our king? His Majesty seems to have evaporated and does not exist. Everything is there, but it is not. What did he do all that week between Borodino and the flight? How did he escape or, to put it gallantly, left Moscow? Or was the sovereign not standing there at all? Did you find it in St. Petersburg? Oh ... Something I'm sharp after Telegram )))

[kytx]

Couldn't count. Too many inconsistencies.
Well, for example, "the army must feed itself!" (C) Napoleon
Is the point clear?

[Illanatol]

Quote: depressant

Sell ​​the yacht on the domestic market? Well, you don’t mean such yachts as Abramovich’s? Piece goods, ordered in advance, project, agreement with the future owner, his whims, construction only at certain foreign shipyards. Mmm... No, it won't work.

No, I meant yachts more modest than "Eclipse".
With proper control over foreign trade, our moneybags will greatly diminish the opportunities for being petty (as well as their livestock, by the way).
Yes, and purchases can be made according to pre-agreed applications.

[Illanatol]

Quote: depressant

In those days, the war was like that. The wounded were often left at the mercy of the winner, that is, they were simply abandoned, hiding behind the laws of honor allegedly inherent in the enemy - the aristocracy fought!

Kutuzov took the wounded soldiers of his army from the Borodino field, Napoleon simply abandoned some of his wounded due to a lack of horse-drawn transport.
As for the wounded, abandoned in Moscow, as well as something else ... alas, but one can admit the thought of the intentionality of this. I have some ideas about the reasons for this deliberateness, but they are too impartial, so I will refrain from this.

[ivan2022]

Respect to the author for a vivid illustrative example of historical PR: in 1812 - "the brilliant move of our commander", in 1941 - "the complete disaster of the Red Army." Although Moscow was not surrendered in 1941, "shamefully" a lot of things were evacuated just in case.