US media: Submarine "Ash-M" has an advantage over the "best submarine of all time" USS Virginia

Russian nuclear submarines of the Yasen-M class can be compared in their characteristics with the Virginia Block 5. In the United States, they consider their newest submarine the most powerful in the Naval navy USA, and even all over the world.

Brent Eastwood, columnist for the American magazine 19FortyFive, discusses this topic.

The author notes that the new US Navy submarine is distinguished by low visibility and a perfect control system, as well as powerful weapons.

The Block V version is larger and has more weaponsthan previous upgrades of the Virginia class

Eastwood says.

He believes that the latest version of Block 5 "looks dominant".

At the same time, the US media note that the Yasen-M submarine has a significant advantage over the “best submarine of all time” USS Virginia. After all, the Russians will equip their submarine fleet with hypersonic missiles much earlier than the Americans. In addition, the new "Ash" of the Russian Navy have a larger displacement than the newest American "Virginia".

Eastwood says Russia is leading the way in the development of submarine-launched hypersonic weapons. The Russians have already tested Zirkon missiles on Yasen-M class submarines. The Americans are far behind in this direction, since the launch of a hypersonic missile from the Block 5 board may not take place this decade.

Comments

[NDR-791]

Praise??? Not good, it means they want to play dirty tricks somewhere.

[Cananecat]

Quote: NDR-791

Praise??? Not good, it means they want to play dirty tricks somewhere.

If all the advantage is only in hypersound, then this is not an advantage, but a change in the application strategy.

[1Alexey]

Totally agree with you!
In addition, in the United States, in fact, the Sivulf-type nuclear submarine was considered the best in this class, and Yasen-M should be compared with it.
And the comparison should be according to the performance characteristics of nuclear submarines, and missiles stand alone today, others tomorrow.

[venik]

Quote: Canecat

If all the advantage is only in hypersound, then this is not an advantage, but a change in the application strategy.

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First of all, I must apologize to you: I accidentally put a "-" though I didn't intend to! (I will try to return the debt on occasion, but if anything, you can "minus" me as compensation).
You are absolutely right in the sense that "hypersound" - this can change the strategy for using multi-purpose nuclear submarines! That's just for "Ash" and "Ash-M" - this almost does not apply, since the main task of this project is, first of all, the fight against the enemy's AUG (read - the USA), but the fight against the enemy's nuclear submarines, as it were, fades into the background. ... But the "Virginia" is just sharpened primarily for anti-submarine warfare and covert special operations (reconnaissance), and the task of fighting large ship groups (including with AUG) of the enemy is secondary. First of all, due to the extremely small number of AUGs from potential adversaries (Russia and China).
Hence the different requirements for boats: "Ash" - faster, have a much greater working and ultimate diving depth, more powerful torpedo and missile weapons and a higher level of automation. "Virginias win in stealth (especially at low and medium speeds), they are cheaper to build and more massive, probably the HAC is more efficient there and there are special cameras for combat swimmers ....
Well, in general, these are ships of approximately the same class, mainly differing in "sharpening" for different tasks!

[Cananecat]

Quote: venik

You are absolutely right

Thank you for the detailed answer.
P.S. I react calmly to negatives. ))

[venik]

Quote: Canecat

Thanks for the detailed answer

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Not worth it!
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Quote: Canecat

P.S. I react calmly to negatives. ))

======
Yes, I don’t react to them at all, except for those cases when they misunderstood you, but here, as they say, it’s my own fault: I should have formulated my thoughts more clearly!

[Cananecat]

Quote: venik

I should have expressed my thoughts more clearly

Exactly ... and some people here don't know the word sarcasm

[mat-vey]

Quote: NDR-791

Praise??? Not good, it means they want to play dirty tricks somewhere.

Rather, they want to shake off more money from their own to drink ...

[Tavi]

As I understand it, their main problem is to push "new" missiles into existing (small) mines, or rather, to create a hypersonic missile of the right size. And replacing the mines is also not an option - they don’t climb in height, length and width - this already needs to change the entire fleet. The amounts are such that oh-ho-ho ... there is no time to drink)

[PN]

No, they don't praise. Eastwood is a magazine columnist, a journalist in short. And like 99,9% of journalists, he has no access to boats or information about them. He can only reprint the information already available and express his own opinion. By the way, this also applies to our reviewers. Explanatory information is slightly more than 0.

[from Dagorlad]

either they found out about the vulnerability, so they praise it, or they take it for a show off

[knn54]

The question is different - for one Ash there are several Virginias.
For in the USA they do as much as necessary, and in the Russian Federation as much as they can.

[Barberry25]

Well, actually, in the USA, Virginias are simply made much longer, from 2004 to 2020, 19 units were put into operation, while Ash trees only from the 21st year begin to be delivered to the Navy at a rate of 1 per year + Boreas go ..

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Barberry25

Well, in general, in the USA, Virginia is made just much longer

As if "Severodvinsk" was laid down at the end of 1993. The United States has 2 years from laying to commissioning, and 8 years in the Russian Federation

[Barberry25]

I won't even respond to such a stupid comment.

[Maz]

Since when is the Virginia Block Five the best submarine in the US Navy? BUT? Found something to compare. Have you forgotten "Siawulf" already? This is the best boat. The truth is not cheap.

[SKVichyakow]

What else is left for them to do? Each sandpiper praises his swamp.

[Rusticolus]

So here it's the other way around. Amery praise Ash trees. Right there recently, someone foaming at the mouth argued that virginia was a megawaffle.

[tralflot1832]

Again 25. They got into this hypersound. I always believed that the main weapon of the nuclear submarine is stealth, and in order for the whole world to crumble, you also need to go to the launch area. to protect our SSBNs. When there are many, then we can talk about hunting for AUGs.

[Barberry25]

well, there will be many of them in 15 years, not earlier ... I personally rely on the modernized project 09851. The base base is Borey with its water cannons, which are considered quieter + underwater displacement in the region of 10 thousand tons, which is comparable to the displacement of Shchuk-B and Barracuda. we remove the Poseidons and instead put UVP or 650 mm TA or GAS .. And we get a small serial hunter nuclear submarine, I won’t be surprised that "2 boreas" who ordered this just about Khabarovsk crafts

[rocket757]

The Russians have already tested Zircon missiles on Yasen-M class submarines. The Americans are far behind in this direction, since the launch of a hypersonic missile from the Block 5 board may not take place this decade.

The eternal confrontation "competition" ... there is always no absolute leader in everything. On that the world also keeps, while.

[T.A.V.]

No, but what is logical)
Ash has the advantage, but their submarine is the best of all time.
L - logic

[dimy44]

Well, thank you hosspadi, Ash is better. Now at least I can get over it in peace.

[Skipper]

The other day, the old Soviet BOD Admiral Vinogradov DISCOVERED near the Kuril Islands and kicked out a Virginia-type nuclear submarine that invaded the territorial waters of Russia for 4 km. the Americans were silent on the air when they were warned and then quickly cut off. ONCE AGAIN - THE OLD SOVIET BOD DISCOVERED the most invincible and powerful advanced flawless stealth boat in the world. The minke whales themselves are not sick of the streams of their lies about deceit in all spheres of society.

[Tomcat_Tomcat]

The Block V version is larger and has more weapons than previous upgrades to the Virginia class.

At the same time, the US media note that the Yasen-M submarine has a significant advantage over the “best submarine of all time” USS Virginia. After all, the Russians will equip their submarine fleet with hypersonic missiles much earlier than the Americans. In addition, the new "Ash" of the Russian Navy have a large displacement

top-level analytics) Neither the stealth parameters, nor the parameters of the GAS and CIUS, it turns out, are important. The American observer does not know and cannot know anything about the Virginia, much less about the Russian nuclear submarine, in order to write something serious and worthy of attention.

[Petrik66]

Well, let the virginia drive them out of our territorial waters, or better, they’ll visit San Francisco and pop up at the embankment, since it’s so cool.

[Denis812]

What a great article, amazing in its depth.
It reminded the old joke.
The Armenian radio asked:
- Which is better Armenia or Azerbaijan
- Of course Armenia!
“What's better?”
- Than Azerbaijan!

:))))

[Incvizitor]

Comparing the classified characteristics of new submarines is strong, he probably knows a lot.

[agond]

If the author proposes to compare Yasen-M with Virginia Block 5, then let him provide at least some data on both boats summarized in one table, although the fact that the usual Ash is 1.74 times larger means that it is much worse than Virginia, according to Ash -M it is known that it is shorter by 9m, but this does not change the essence, both of them have a two-hull design and therefore contain a lot of water, the first is 5200t, 37% of the second is unknown, Virginia has a surface displacement of 7300t. underwater 7925t. there is only 625 tons of water or 7%, and ours is 4.5 thousand tons more, and as you know, the more water is in the boat, the less space remains, for example, for weapons. , if anyone does not know, boats are built to place weapons on them, and not to carry water across the oceans in them,. The means of detecting any boats (both large and small) are constantly increasing quantitatively and qualitatively, and all this in the conditions of the clear dominance of foreign fleets, therefore our underwater water carrier airships are in very serious danger. and we don’t have many boats themselves, but there are only a few bases for their placement ..

[Slap]

And what is the reason for more water in Yasen? Lagging behind in some technology or another strategy?

[grunt]

Quote: tralflot1832

Again 25. They got into this hypersound. I always believed that the main weapon of the nuclear submarine is stealth, and in order for the whole world to crumble, you also need to go to the launch area. to protect our SSBNs. When there are many, then we can talk about hunting for AUGs.

Well, as it were, the presence of hypersonic weapons, which already somehow worked from a submarine, is a very serious factor and achievement. In general, Americans react extremely painfully and aggressively to the slightest factors of their lagging behind / non-leadership in one area or another.

Stealth is the main tactical property of submarines, and weapons, taking into account the general possibilities of influencing the situation, rather yes, missiles are the main thing. Ash trees are known to be created as universal ships capable of solving any problems. Only now, alas, it is unlikely to be large-scale.

[Alexey Koshkarov]

If they praise , one must beware . If they vilify, then the technique is good

[venik]

Quote: Alexey Koshkarov

If they praise , one must beware . If they vilify, then the technique is good

=======
Are you sure? Have you read Y. Semenov's story "Password is not needed"? There are some very interesting discussions on this topic...

[Spkrdctr]

Submarine "Virginia" now ranks second after the Russian submarine. The Pentagon is already talking about replacing the Virginia in 2040. Our Navy knows that it is becoming obsolete, as its small size severely limits its capabilities.

[agond]

In general, it would be interesting to compare modern Yasenii with French boats of the Ryubi nuclear submarine type of the 1974 model, which have an underwater displacement of only 2650 tons, that is, 5 times !!! less than Ash, and if compared with pr 949A "Antey", then the difference will be 9 times in general !!! , NINE times Carl !!! If we followed the example of France, then with the funds spent on the construction of 11 Anteys, 99 Ryubi-type boats could be built, and this horde would represent a much greater force than all existing Anteys and other diesel boats,. It should be taken into account the fact that both large and small boats can serve the same time, but they are always built longer, it is always much more difficult to repair them, and the repair itself is associated with a long wait for their turn, and the plant does not want to get involved with their modernization , and on large boats it is impossible to swim under the ice in shallow water, and here the entire coast of the Arctic for hundreds of kilometers has depths of less than 100m, mostly 50-60m
Therefore, our need for large boats is a big question and Yasen-M is no exception.

[venik]

"....At the same time, the US media note that the Yasen-M submarine has a significant advantage over the “best submarine of all time” USS Virginia. After all, the Russians will equip their submarine fleet with hypersonic missiles much earlier than the Americans. .... "
======
Actually, what does "hypersound" have to do with it? "Ash" - although they are multi-purpose nuclear submarines, they are "sharpened" for combating SURFACE targets (primarily with American AUGs). And "Virginia" is, first of all, "anti-submarine" nuclear submarines! Hence the completely different requirements for these submarines!
"Ash" is much larger, has greater autonomy, better habitability, much greater speed and depth of immersion, more powerful weapons (hypersonic "Zircons" only strengthen it) ...
"Virginia" - a classic "spillboat" (with the option of "special operations") ..... HOW can they be compared at all ??
PS By the way, "Ash" is a much more "automated" boat compared to "Virginia" (strange as it may sound) - there, with a much larger displacement - the crew is TWICE smaller!

[agond]

On the issue of stealth, it is known that the diameter of the Virginia hull is 10.5m, Ash has 13m, remember the school physics course, the power of the reflected signal changes in proportion to the square of the distance, if the distance is increased by 10 times, then the signal will weaken 100 times, at least for a spherical reflective surface , the signal will also weaken by a factor of 100 and with a decrease in the diameter of this sphere by a factor of 10 (with the same signal power of the active location), it follows that when the boats approach on a collision course, the distance of their mutual active detection will depend on how many times the diameter of the hull of one boat differs from the other, in our case we divide 13m by 10.5m = 1.23 times, we square the answer 1.23x1.23=1.51, this means that, all other things being equal, our Ash will be detected at a distance of 1.51 times farther than it can detect Virginia

[venik]

Quote: agond

reminiscent of high school physics

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Dear "agond" (sorry, I don’t know how by name and patronymic) - I congratulate you on your EXCELLENT knowledge school physics course! ( ). I personally think that with SUCH skills - you can easily enter any of the Russian Universities! Well, if it doesn’t work out for the “budget”, then at least it’s possible for the “paid” ....
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Quote: agond

ceteris paribus, our Ash will be detected at a distance of 1.51 times farther than it can detect Virginia

=====
So I understand that the key word here is "other things being equal" ..... Well, HOW can they be "equal"? I'm not talking about different purposes (such trifles!). It is already enough that "Ash" - TWO-hull, and "Virginia" - single-hull .....
And what is the conclusion from here? Can you guess or suggest?
Well, then I give a hint: at low speeds - "Virginia" - are less noticeable, and at high speeds - ....
And I think you can answer this question yourself!

[agond]

The good thing about the school course is that it is difficult to challenge it, and the inverse square law is applicable for any longitudinal-transverse waves, including acoustics, of course, the real picture is much more complicated, but the analysis begins with general provisions and only then moves on to details., Then, that Ash is TWO-hulled (like all our other boats now and ever), this is known, but for the above example of the movement of two boats towards each other almost along the same line, this does not matter in principle, since the geometry of the bows of the boats is similar and similar to the internal maintenance of the bows of the boats, Virginia has a bow ballast tank in which the antenna, TA pipes and much more, and in Yasen, about the same set, therefore, for comparison purposes, it is permissible to equate them to the common denominator of other equal conditions.
,

[venik]

Quote: agond

That's why the school course is good, that it's hard to challenge it

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There was a saying in our physics department: "Physics is best known by 1st year students.... By the 5th year, they finally start to realize that they really DON'T KNOW shit!".....

[agond]

Quote: venik

"Physics is best known to first-year students.

Since you have graduated from the Faculty of Physics, here is a question for you, how do you assess the knowledge of physics by the designers of our double-hulled boats.?

[venik]

Quote: agond

Since you have graduated from the Faculty of Physics, here is a question for you, how do you assess the knowledge of physics by the designers of our double-hulled boats.?

=======
Do you think that single-hull schemes are just a "panacea" for all problems? Then you are deeply mistaken: both schemes: both their advantages and their disadvantages .... Therefore, everyone who builds boats chooses WHAT suits him best, in accordance with the tasks, requirements and technical capabilities of the industry ......
PS Well, I appreciate the knowledge of physics by our shipbuilders quite highly!

[agond]

Quote: venik

Do you think that single-hull schemes are just a "panacea" for all problems?

For submarines, there is only one "panacea", this is secrecy, for the sake of this secrecy itself, hidden ships were built and are being built, but. if you can't provide stealth, then don't build boats, build surface ships. Concealment, it is also stealth from means of detection by echolocation, depends both on the linear size of the object and on the projection area of ​​​​the object, if one boat has a hull diameter of 12m and the other 6m, the difference is 2 times, then the detection distances of their each other will differ by 4 times (ceteris paribus). Double-hull boats have always been and will be larger than single-hull boats, this is known to everyone who builds them. At least look at the pictures of the disposal of our boats, they clearly show the size of the gap between the hulls. so he increases their dimensions and excess water has to be collected there when immersed and then transported across the seas.

[venik]

Quote: agond

There is only one "panacea" for submarines, this is secrecy

=======
Have you ever wondered: WHY I wrote that Virginias are less noisy exactly on small и secondary speeds? Why didn't you write that large?
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Quote: agond

Double-hull boats have always been and will be larger than single-hull boats.

============
This is just one of SEVERAL stealth problems! But there are more!!!

[agond]

Quote
Have you ever wondered: WHY did I write that Virginias are less noisy precisely at low and medium speeds? Why didn't he write that on large ones?
This is just one of SEVERAL stealth problems! But there are also OTHER!!![/quote]
the answer is that at low speeds any normal boat should be quiet, at medium speeds in different ways, at high speeds like Virginia there were no 34 knots at all and there are no quiet boats, well, they won’t come up with anything
Small size is NOT a passing quality to fulfill the stealth condition, it was and will be, all other qualities may change as science and technology develop. this is an axiom that does not require proof. If you do not agree, then tell us what wonderful gingerbread is contained in large boats.