BZHRK: when the freight train has a "missile secret"

At one time, many sleepless nights among the representatives of the NATO military command and the highest authorities of the United States and their partners were caused by the appearance in the Soviet Union of a truly unique weapons. We are talking about BZHRK - combat railway missile systems. In such cases, they usually talk about weapons that "have no analogues in the world." And although often such a statement is already perceived at the level of a meme, in the case of the BZHRK at the time of their appearance in the USSR, it really reflected an advantage in this area.

Exactly 15 years ago, Russia decided to finally abandon the operation of combat missile systems equipped for conventional freight trains. As it seemed to many then, it was in 2007 that a bullet point was put in the use of the BZHRK in our country. However, today it is more expedient to speak, rather, about ellipsis ... And there are reasons for this.

To date, the United States has withdrawn from a number of important strategic treaties. The position of even the fundamental treaty, START, is shaky. In such a situation, it can be considered unacceptable for Russia to continue to comply with its obligations in the agreements deposed by Washington. And this gives reason to say that the BZHRK may well have a second birth.

But here “maybe” and “may not be” - a lot depends on how seriously the representatives of the US authorities are ready to discuss global security issues with Russia.

BZHRK themselves are a whole phenomenon in the strategic arsenal. It is quite capable of sobering the hottest and clouded heads. Movement on thousands of kilometers of railways from Smolensk to Vladivostok. The ability to launch a rocket (potentially hypersonic) from virtually any point on the route, information about which has an extremely limited circle of people. Composition with a "rocket secret", and it is indistinguishable from hundreds of ordinary ones.

About BZHRK and its stories - in a video on Dmitry Puchkov's YouTube channel. Sergei Sigachev says:

Comments

[rocket757]

BZHRK: when the freight train has a "missile secret"

It was cool and had no analogues in the world!

[svp67]

Quote: rocket757

It was cool and had no analogues in the world!

Now a similar BZHRK can be created on a completely different basis, and most importantly quickly and make it more secretive

[rocket757]

There are a lot of vigorous loaves, a variety of ... this is not an end in itself, it is a tool for preventing and deterring the most zealous.

[svp67]

Quote: rocket757

Lots of core loaves

Yes, now there are enough conventional warheads, the main thing is that it would be accurate, inevitable and unexpected

[rocket757]

Ordinary warheads ... for a long range IT IS EXPENSIVE to get an apocalyptic effect. And which of the local zealous ones can be scared with something less than the apocalypse ???
We are not for winning the war, we are for preventing it!!!

[svp67]

Quote: rocket757

Ordinary warheads ... long range IS EXPENSIVE

With current accuracy ... no. Otherwise, we would not have the same Calibers, which, by the way, are part of such "cunning" complexes based on sea containers.

[rocket757]

You can destroy a lot if you can.
The question is what they can do without fear of global consequences, hoping for the effectiveness of their protection systems.
And most importantly, then you can restore everything !!! Because the territory will not be polluted/infected for many years to come.
PREVENT, not fight.

[Non-fighter]

How are you going to hide the weight? Am I the only one who remembers about 8-axle bogies? Yes, and with security and defense, please decide, because the hidden composition is difficult to guard.
And in general, the railway is a civilian structure that is put out of action quickly and for a long time, and as a key infrastructure object, the first goal

[svp67]

Quote: Not the fighter

How are you going to hide the weight?

?????? These systems are quite placed on conventional cargo platforms.
Have you ever heard anything about the Club (Caliber)-K missile systems? "nj is a Russian containerized missile weapon system housed in a standard 20-foot and 40-foot ISO container.

And they can be placed not only on railway platforms, but also on completely civilian ships, and on ordinary barges ... Who will wait for an attack from the other side?

[andr327]

do not forget that there is a deterrent weapon that is in constant (several minutes) readiness at launch and which is constantly under the supervision and control of personnel (called "Combat duty"). And there are weapons for warfare, which are in the boxes, loaded into the holds, and it needs hours to bring them to readiness ...

[akropin]

An amateur question - is it possible to use them on a semi-trailer?

[Starover_Z]

Quote: Not the fighter

How are you going to hide the weight? Am I the only one who remembers about 8-axle bogies? Yes, and with security and defense, please decide, because the hidden composition is difficult to guard.

Now rockets have become more compact, smaller in size and weight, and various types of freight cars have become more capacious and heavy, 90-100 tons with cargo. So there shouldn't be any problems from that side.
The problem may be the total control of cargo on the railroad. If "friendly partners" make friends in the structures of Russian Railways, then they can figure out the necessary wagons and their location, especially since cargo tracking has long been working on the roads of the CIS in the interests of shippers and recipients.

[alex neym_2]

Outside, an ordinary refrigerator, only a wheeled cart is more powerful, but inside ... what you want can be placed with the current degree of development of technology.

[svp67]

Quote: aleks neym_2

Outside, an ordinary refrigerator,

You can already do without it. Moreover, the patrol area of ​​​​this BZHRK was limited, precisely because of its weight

[Bad_gr]

If a rocket for railways is made on the basis of "Topol" (45-47 tons), then the carrying capacity of an ordinary 4-axle wagon should be enough (carrying capacity 68-71 tons). Yes, and for a heavier missile ("Bark" (80 tons) to bring to mind), you can pick up a civilian car under which to disguise it (eight-axle, for example - 120-132 tons). Even for passenger it is possible (6-axle):

[SVD68]

Quote: Bad_gr

Even for passenger it is possible (6-axle):

How do you disguise a passenger train in an automated railway control system for which tickets are not sold?
With freight trains, there will be a similar problem - a train that is not loaded anywhere and is not unloaded anywhere.

[svoroponov]

And he kind of is. The use of practically standard cars without increasing the load on the axles, since the rocket has a lower launch weight. Devices for spreading contact lines, devices for stabilizing cars for launching a rocket from the previous version, have been worked out. Life support cars of calculations, worked out in the same way on previous versions. Electrical equipment, communications, control devices are being changed for products on a modern electronic base - it has been worked out on mobile missile vehicle systems. A throw shooting of a rocket model was performed at the start from the starting car. There is also a missile, an analogue of the already operating ones. Tests of the entire complex are needed. While everything.
Manufacture of a railway complex in Russia, Bryansk. The rocket is not known where (solid fuel). Yes, and the first complexes were not assembled in Ukraine. Only the development and production of missiles for these complexes. But competence and technology have not gone away.

[Momento]

why? wheels are better.
and then the BZHRK traveled only along specially fortified tracks. Americans back in the 2000s learned to recognize them from satellites.

[KERMET]

Okay, let's believe that we have learned to define, and
did the satellite constantly hover over the train, guiding it along the network of tracks?

[Momento]

they could not shoot directly from the tracks. not an armored train. need a specially prepared site.

[KERMET]

Let's just say that he doesn't need some kind of special site, but certain requirements for the launch zone, and of course, not the entire route fit this, there were sections where launch is possible, where not, that's all

[svoroponov]

Therefore, the Americans asked them to be removed from service, because their control over movement was not possible.
And there is no need to talk about American satellites and their ability to track such trains. They wouldn't track them down even now.

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

Therefore, the Americans asked them to be removed from service, because their control over movement was not possible.

Yep ...
- where is your mailbox 12345 here?
- we don't know.
- well, a torpedo plant!
- aa .. a little further - there is a hole in the fence behind the checkpoint ... (c) USSR
ANY RAILWAYER could tell what kind of cars, where and why ...
And those who saw PPVshku- those could tell everything.
And now it is enough to have access to ETRAN and you can draw all the necessary conclusions

[Amateur]

It was Konetsky who recognized everything from American satellites. But the Americans themselves - the question

[KERMET]

You can create, as well as save the infrastructure from the former, but why?

[knn54]

Alas, there is no USSR. Yuzhmash is not the same and in another state .. Academicians, the Utkin brothers have left us. Cooperation is broken
I was personally acquainted (at work) with one of the brothers-ideologist of the product from Dnepropetrovsk.

[rocket757]

Something goes, something comes!
The non-Soviet backlog is already beginning to be realized, to work.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: rocket757

BZHRK: when the freight train has a "missile secret"

It was cool and had no analogues in the world!

Was still a boy. Relatives throughout the Union, I traveled a lot on the train with my parents. Favorite thing to do on a train is to look out the window.
Then, in the late 70s, I didn’t understand why soldiers guard ordinary refrigerators at the station? It was somewhere near Ufa, Kurgan. In the 90s, when the Sverdlovsk Drunkard destroyed the BZHRK at the request of the United States, he realized what it was and why these "refrigerators" were guarded ..

[rocket757]

Foreign figures missed the moment of Russia's objection as a subject of world politics.
Our vigorous potential, arsenal, slows down all their aggressive plans.
We just have to keep it up.
It won't be easy, but there's no other way.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: rocket757

Our vigorous potential, arsenal, slows down all their aggressive plans.

They saw Libya, they saw Yugoslavia, they saw Syria. All without the "nuclear club". And Trump puffed out his cheeks, and turned the fleet to the Pilipins - what if the Kims go zhahnut? Our nuclear weapons are the way to peace. America understands only the threat of complete annihilation. Nothing more.

[rocket757]

The strategy of mutual destruction works ... however, for them, to get serious losses without making a noticeable profit, is also an argument, to hold back their zealous horses.

[EXPERO]

It is not feasible for us now ... unfortunately. The entire infrastructure of the BZHRK missile divisions has been destroyed, and building from scratch and training people is not immediately and not quickly.

[KERMET]

And by the way, there was no need to destroy the infrastructure ...
Why it was done they won't tell us

[Alexga]

They made complexes, and now there is almost nothing left of the Bryansk Carriage Works. The Krasnoyarsk division was the last to be engaged here, sections and that's it.

[svoroponov]

..... and now there is almost nothing left of the Bryansk Carriage Works .....
Have you been there for a long time? Or do you write only according to the notes in the press of the 90s?

[DAK70]

The last destroyed Kostroma division

[prior]

It is not the BZHRK that needs to be restored, but the Soviet Power.
Otherwise, the BZHRK will not help ......

[Bez 310]

Isn't it time to settle down with new old notions?
Maybe enough already "having no analogues"? Maybe it's time to delve into the country's economy?

[Sergey Valov]

If you follow your advice, then VO will almost die

[Sergey Valov]

BZHRK have, in addition to advantages, very serious disadvantages.
1. Their extreme vulnerability. It is very difficult to protect the composition, but it is easy to disable it, a primitive rail mine and the whole composition is over. They are easy to block on the desired section of the railway track. Etc. factors.
2. It is difficult to disguise them, because the train will have to carry a lot of unnecessary cars, so as not to stand out with a monotonous configuration.
3. The number of ways for BZHRK trains is not so great, because it is contraindicated for them to enter large cities and freight stations.
4. Duty routes should be able to quickly turn around and avoid “surveillance” in case of possible detection, which further narrows the possibility of maneuver.
5. Higher requirements are imposed on the quality of the railway track, which also reduces their possible dispersal.
6. Bases will be required for servicing, loading missiles, changing l / s, which will instantly become the object of close attention, and it is not a fact that it is easier for a train to leave the railway base unnoticed than SSBNs from their base.
It's just the simplest thing that comes to mind.

[your vsr 66-67]

I personally know that in the mid-80s the BZHRK went to the station. Sverdlovsk, of course, commodity, and other major hubs, say such a hub as Krasnoufimsk. But a very limited circle of people knew about this, despite the fact that the word BZHRK was never mentioned anywhere! This limited circle only knew that it would be lettered! The rest is guesswork, but at that time this circle of people already knew WHAT kind of letter it was! And it was practically impossible to distinguish a BZHRK from a simple refrigerated train or section, especially when there are several refrigerated trains in the freight fleet!

[Sergey Valov]

“And it was practically impossible to distinguish a BZHRK from a simple refrigerated train or section” - the BZHRK had a regular composition of cars - passenger, rocket, 4 locomotives, etc. It is enough to analyze images from space and everything will fall into place. Of course, it is possible to force civilians to drive trains similar in configuration to military ones, but what about their loading / unloading and the consequences for the country's economy from such a “disguise”. After all, it was not in vain that I wrote about the need to carry extra wagons for camouflage.

[Blackmokona]

And now it’s even easier, one bribe to someone from Russian Railways or their IT department, and it will be possible to receive data on all BZHRK online.

[svoroponov]

Everything that you wrote in modern conditions is almost irrelevant.
The composition by weight will correspond to typical refrigerators with a full load. Satellites with modern methods of disguise you will not keep track. A train can travel up to 1000 or more kilometers per day. In addition, they will move along lines far from the borders of the country. And the railway network is constantly developing, new railway sections are being built. Calculations can make a replacement even when stopping in the field. Replenishment of provisions and so on - hours. Previously, the composition had to come to a prepared point for firing or cruised along reinforced sections. Now, where he goes, he stopped and is ready to shoot. Since the weight characteristics are close to the typical maximum, it will not go along the railways, which were previously reinforced for the passage of such trains and the number of such sections was limited and it was easier to track.
Technique is improving.

[Spring fluff]

The trains are controlled by civilian information networks. There is quite a complicated logistics. Information is available to an unlimited number of persons. And you propose to build into this system some kind of separate trains / wagons with security, with requirements for handling (do not unhook / do not attach, do not leave without security (and here its supply) at a dead end, ...), with requirements to enter a certain time to certain points (read - military bases) for loading / unloading / maintenance / changing guards. What priorities will they have in comparison with civilian trains in terms of passage, who will coordinate this. These compositions will glow among others like a central Christmas tree. It will look especially enchanting on a satellite image, as in an open field (in a deep forest) something is being brought to this train (and in order for something to turn out in the forest, this very thing must be delivered there from somewhere). And the dispatchers at this time are watching the train in the field for a little while and waiting, and the residents of the surrounding settlements are watching how trucks are carrying something to the train.

[svoroponov]

Who will be interested in the composition in the open field. Yes, and there is no sense in this, in a few hours it will not be there and it is still necessary to determine that this is the same composition.
A lot of military trains with different letters and in different directions move around the country during the day Determine which one is yours or what, civilians are given a separate summary of what is what and what kind of cargo? You just don’t know how military transportation functions. The Ministry of Railways receives a schedule from the head of military transportation, which must be built into the grid. There is only an application for wagons and their purpose, the station of departure and receipt, or the military unit number. Yes, and people in uniform are engaged in this embedding in the ministry, since the transportation is military, and often carried out by non-civilian railway workers. In addition, with a green street, which is very quickly organized by the military, the train can be 1000 km from the starting point in a day. And how do you track it. And yet, it does not leave a radioactive trace. And the satellite surveillance of the Americans and its capabilities are greatly exaggerated. And the weather in Russia is not ideally cloudless, it is raining, snowing, thunderstorms. Yes, and they won’t let you consider the wheelsets, pushing the train between two commodity or trains on the sludge. Once again. The Americans will not be able to track our complexes. They won even on mobile rocket launchers under an agreement, in order to somehow observe the movement, they determined the area and routes.

[Spring fluff]

the composition in the open field, to which the military brought something, will first of all be of interest to clear whom - the intelligence of a potential enemy.
it will glow in the information field simply enchantingly. just try to go logically through the chain of actions that you suggest: the train should stop in an unintended place, for no apparent reason for some long time. will they notify the railway about this? vehicles moved to the same place from the military base (should not be very far). all this beauty is repeated once in ...? in certain places with certain compositions. local residents, if available, regularly observe, employees of the Russian Railways tax. It is understandable that a ban is introduced on the passage, flight of quadrocopters in these areas. six months later, the whole country is discussing it.

[svoroponov]

Or maybe a train breakdown, or the station is not currently accepting. Again, what will you follow? Is there enough satellites to monitor all refrigerated trains in real time? And at that time, the capabilities of satellites were generally limited, but now it’s just that the possibilities for shelter and camouflage of complexes are different if they appear in service.

[Spring fluff]

jokes about the breakdown, we probably will not discuss. on the other hand, the suckers are not sitting. and the processing of images will first be artificial intelligence, and then the zones of unusual activity will be considered by a specially trained person.

Here is an example of the news of a private office:
https://rossaprimavera.ru/news/b2350c73
Plans for 2022: “We will be able to meet customer expectations for 30cm-per-pixel images, and we will also be able to significantly increase the recapture rate of the region,” Fraser said.
Recall that modern Maxar satellites are in a sun-synchronous orbit, which is convenient in terms of mapping. Two of the six new satellites will be in sun-synchronous orbit, while the remaining four will be launched into medium-inclination orbits. Such a distribution of satellites allows more frequent surveys of the regions of interest to the company. For example, when US troops pulled out of Afghanistan, “we could see certain areas once or twice a day. With new satellites, we will be able to see the same areas more than 15 times a day,” Fraser said.

here is one of her products
https://www.maxar.com/products/satellite-imagery
google translate for simplicity: Radar images
Detect changes in adverse ground conditions and at night with radar imagery. This type of imagery can penetrate clouds and darkness, providing unique, reliable monitoring capabilities to civil, commercial, and defense organizations around the world.

coverage level in 2020:
https://blogs.esri-cis.ru/2020/06/11/imagery-basemap/
Through Esri's collaboration with Maxar (formerly known as DigitalGlobe), ArcGIS users can enjoy free high-resolution and ultra-high-resolution space imagery hosted in the World Imagery basemap, ...
Most of Russia is covered with a mosaic of images with a spatial resolution of at least 1 meter (Maxar Vivid product), and many large cities are captured with a resolution of up to 31 centimeters per pixel (Maxar Metro product).

[svoroponov]

The fact of the matter is that certain areas, but what about the rest?
Well, more. AI will select the pictures and the person will process them, but this time is not small. Imagine at least you have to view at least 500 pictures with a magnifying glass. Found, then what? So give me the coordinates. You will need confirmation again and possibly more than one. And where will the complex be during this time? Perhaps already in an area where he is not tracked. After all, the Russian military knows the characteristics of specific reconnaissance satellites, and the frequency of work. They are simply involved in the withdrawal of these complexes from observation. And yet, the new complex may look not only as refrigerators, but possibly as passenger and cargo trucks, or in general some kind of transformable type.

[Spring fluff]

I think we're doing some bullshit. arguing about what is not :)
with a magnifying glass? :)))) Sberbank did not offer you biometric identification? AI now recognizes people. your theoretical composition will have a certain profile (appearance and behavior) that will stand out from the appearance and behavior of other compositions. it is impossible to make a passenger one - he must visit passenger stations according to the schedule, but he cannot do this. and if there are no passenger cars, then where is the guard located? cargo - what? refrigerators? containers? and where and where do the compositions of these types go? at what stations and how much do they cost for loading and unloading, how does the composition change after that? and here a unique train without changing the number of cars (yes, at least change their order, and a certain set of them will remain in the train) runs along non-typical, but limited routes (whether you like it or not, but life will rebuild so that it will be driven where it is convenient to serve and he doesn't really interfere with the rest), and often stops by at the military base (changing the guard, replenishing supplies, then). eventually it will be identified by the AI. and to topple it on its side, you need a conventional charge, unlike a pair of nuclear ones on a fortified mine.

[svoroponov]

The person-expert controls the results of photo analysis. AI can only help make the selection. And then AI selects this for you ....... for destruction

[Spring fluff]

agree. but the task for AI is not so difficult
Here is an example of a recent article. based on the article, the total number of trains in the Russian Federation is about 20 thousand, and there are about 1 million cars, of which a significant part is cars for coal and tanks for oil products. The share of containers is not that big, there is no mention of refrigerators at all. Those. the task for AI narrows down to a few thousand trains and hundreds of thousands of wagons. From this small number, it is necessary to determine trains that will regularly call on some atypical objects and constantly have a certain standard minimum of wagons in their composition.

As of February 14, more than 106 loaded and empty wagons were abandoned on the Russian Railways network, of which 77% were loaded with cargo: almost 35 wagons were filled with coal, 12 wagons were oil products, and 8 wagons were in containers.

Read more at RBC:
https://www.rbc.ru/business/17/02/2022/620cf57e9a79470d7a654870?from=from_main_8

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

Or maybe a train breakdown, or the station is not currently accepting.

I'll tell you a secret - if a breakdown occurs or the station does not accept - then after 5 minutes half the country knows about it - simply because now everything is driven into very tight time schedules and money.
They really wrote to you - that they will now glow like Christmas trees.
Their disguise was back and forth during the PPVshek - and now you can see it online any wagon. Where is he, whose is he, "sick" and where were they treated ...
Cars bring money - only when the wheels are spinning. And against their background, the ref train that goes outside the usual places is nonsense

[svoroponov]

And I'll tell you, if this is not a disaster, then a train breakdown and a temporary stop are of no interest to anyone at all. Moreover, the structure of the railway and the branching of the railway tracks is such that it is elementary easy to hide such a train, especially with camouflage elements. If possible, then just drive around the passenger and cargo stations of cities with their depots, villages, substations, branches to enterprises, fuel terminals, and so on. And then we'll talk. On duty, I had to travel. I know what I'm talking about.

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

And I'll tell you, if this is not a disaster, then a train breakdown and a temporary stop are of no interest to anyone at all.

As a person who worked for 12 years in cooperation with a technical office and commodity cashiers, I repeat. Now it is almost impossible to hide anything on the railway. The slightest delay or cutoff and they immediately send telegrams.
It was in the USSR that the car could stand at a dead end - and now 100% of the rolling stock has an owner. And even those cars - on which the Ministry of Defense carries something - they are NOT state-owned or Russian Railways

[Sergey Valov]

Regarding invisibility from space. Taken from WIKI.
The composition of the BZHRK includes a train of a standard configuration for the complex:

three three-car launch modules with RT-23UTTH ICBMs;
command module consisting of 7 cars;
tank car with stocks of fuel and lubricants;
two locomotives DM-62.
A total of 17 wagons. Are there many civilian trains of this configuration and with such a meager number of cars? Therefore, for camouflage, you will have to hook up two or three more dozens of absolutely unnecessary but loaded (for camouflage) wagons to the BZHRK, which will inevitably require hooking up a couple more locomotives for safety. But that's not all. All standard cars of the BZHRK complex must be docked together, which again unmasks the complex. All this splendor must be regularly maintained and not in an open field. With what to serve, preferably not civilians, and certainly not conscripts.

[svoroponov]

For reference. When the United States found out about the complexes, they were in prostration, according to their confession, they did not know anything about the complexes at all, and this was a surprise for them, but these complexes have been on combat duty for several years. How is it that the intelligence and satellite constellation did not track them? Once again, the US satellite constellation is not omnipotent, intelligence is far from ideal, and there are many ways to mask complexes and deceive from surveillance.
Yes, and more. Often in the west, aerial photography is given out as satellite images, including those carried out by us in order to mislead about the ability of our surveillance equipment.

[Alien From]

Recall that not everything was smooth with the bzhrk. Reinforced wheelset, problems with the removal of the contact wire, firing a rocket only from a reinforced position ... this is what I remembered. Although it is certainly an outstanding masterpiece!)

[KERMET]

Everyone has flaws, the same mobile poplars have no less restrictions on
launch

[svoroponov]

The developers of the new complex, when they started and did the analysis, said that under modern conditions they would be able to fit this complex into the weight characteristics of standard cars. The calculation was that the maximum weight of one wagon would not exceed 80 tons. Perhaps it will be a little lower, it all depends on the rocket scientists.

[Pavel57]

Quote: svp67

Quote: rocket757

It was cool and had no analogues in the world!

Now a similar BZHRK can be created on a completely different basis, and most importantly quickly and make it more secretive

Stealthy in what area? You can't hide the schedule of Russian Railways.

[svoroponov]

They will write “literal” in the schedule and what it is, who knows, maybe the manure urgently delivers somewhere. Again, well, we learned further what. You need to send an organized group, but you are in the suburbs and the complex is going somewhere near Novokuznetsk and ......, after all, it can go on schedule, or maybe request a green line or a change of direction in the grid is urgent and where and who will meet him? . Just in words but in deeds ........ If it is not tracked in real time, why ?, satellites are not an option, then no missiles can hit it, there are no opportunities for guidance. Only in the likely area with special ammunition.

[Prizr]

It seems to me now that for a supercomputer, the steering is composed of cleanliness, sensors, cameras, satellites everywhere ...

[KERMET]

It will be even easier to calculate the same Poplars with your supercomputer

[Dimon-chik-79]

What is this article about? About what is not there and how good it would be if it still existed?
And to be honest, with the development of missile defense, stealth and mobility faded into the background, and speed, maneuverability, invisibility and proximity to the enemy came to the fore to reduce flight time.

[APASUS]

Our BZHRK always issued multi-axle platforms and the fact that such a train was always dragged by two diesel locomotives ............... now it is logical to use a 40-foot ISO container.

[svoroponov]

Powerful diesel locomotives have been created in Russia. I personally saw how a modern diesel locomotive pulled up to 67 (counted for the sake of interest) loaded wagons and diesel fuel tanks on a long climb. And there was information that he could drag up to 100 wagons.

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: APASUS

now it is logical to use a 40-foot ISO container

Not every wagon is suitable for camouflage. At least some of the wagons should have doors. It should be possible to move from car to car.
Refrigerators were good for this. Conventional platforms with containers are no more.

[svoroponov]

Refrigerators have a roof suitable for opening at startup. You understand that it is simply not realistic and there is nothing to do an analysis of the trains, of which thousands run around the country, but there are also sedimentation tanks with different cars and depots. The country is huge. And it’s easy to disguise a refrigerator car as a car with coal or as a passenger car. Enough fabric and paint.
I think the American experts of that time were smarter than all of you if they insisted on a ban on these complexes.
Well, more. The Americans have tracked the complex at the moment, that it is at the Kaluga station. Then it set off. The war has begun and how will you get it on the route, if you cannot conduct continuous real-time monitoring, and it does not go along the same route, and how will you get it, if the rocket needs flying time, fly, and target designation. Yes, there are more than a dozen such complexes.
As the rocket man said, This is an empty business. They can not be destroyed, but they will work as expected.
And yet, when decommissioning, ours conducted a test by the explosion of the complex. by placing the equivalent of the power of a typical nuclear weapon at a certain real distance. There are shootings. And they blew it up. After that, the performance was checked. It is completely preserved for launching a rocket.

[Sergey Valov]

“To disguise a refrigerator car as a car with coal is simple or as a passenger car. Enough fabric and paint” - and how to disguise the different lengths of the car? How to explain or disguise 3 locomotives on a passenger train or freight train?

[svoroponov]

This is to show you. You take different paint, timber and tarpaulin, not a lot of wire and put your hands on it. How props are made. How Christmas tree toys are made. All in your hands.
During exercises, we turned aircraft into sheds for camouflage. And with the help of paint, the guys of the BMP guarding the sides repainted it and combined the paint in such a way that when walking you could break your nose on it and only then see it.

[Sergey Valov]

“You take different paint, timber and tarpaulin, not a lot of wire and put your hands on it” - you just think about what you offer. After all, we are talking about coupled wagons that will move along the rails.

[svoroponov]

Therefore, paint, timber and material-tarpaulin. And let it move, whoever interferes. Cars with awnings drive the same way, and the cars can be covered, painted in a different color, doors and windows painted. And if you cover the top of the roof with black cloth and paint the sides with brown paint, then it will pass for a car with coal. Have you ever been to a serious military exercise? They don’t produce such miracles of disguise there. I had to see it once, so impressions for a lifetime. True, my plane was camouflaged near the highway from which we then took off, dropping the disguise.

[your1970]

That is, you don’t know that each car has its own number? That looking at it - you can see a bunch of information? That the cars in the train cannot be without numbers?
You are confusing the army with the Russian Railways ...
A bunch of transceivers on the route will accept refs for your "cars with coal"?
17 years ago, a day of downtime of the refsection cost 120 - you can make fake LLCs to cover up, but fake cash flows will be drawn to it - WITHOUT money!

All this and a bunch of other factors will make such compositions glow like Christmas trees in space.

Moreover - I'm sure that the United States had information about the movements of the BRZhK, but included the type of ignorance - so as not to fire their sources

[svoroponov]

You flatter US intelligence. They didn't know anything. Take the example of Crimea. Take the example of our military deployment in Syria. Yes, a lot of things can be cited when they had strategic miscalculations.
You see, you draw a lot from the press, including foreign and reprints from it, which is biased. Often the parameters of equipment or systems are given that are not real, but from advertising booklets or many or the main shortcomings are stubbornly hushed up.
By the fact that you need to sell or look like a supermacho, and so on. All the owners of the main Western media USUALLY HAVE SHARES IN MILITARY CORPORATIONS OR DO JOINT BUSINESS, AND IT IS NOT IN THEIR RULES TO SHIT IN YOUR POCKET.

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

You flatter US intelligence.

Not a gram ... For this, one did not have to be an intelligence genius - it was quite enough to buy a person with access to ETRAN. All in all ... and having bought, they would immediately receive information about all incoming and outgoing cargo from the Russian Federation ...
And the owner of the cars absolutely legally bought access and had real-time information about them (early 2000s).
You don’t understand one thing - if an empty wagon is standing idle somewhere now, money is already automatically paid for it, it brings losses to the owner ....
And the railway reacts sooooo nervously to such a standing - money goes to them when the wheels are spinning ...

[svoroponov]

You take into account what is not. The complex does not carry other people's cars, it can move along the Russian Railways grid like an ordinary train according to documents.
He completed patrols and in the military department he goes on the next patrol with a change of legend. In addition, other departments have many wagons for various purposes (they have them on their balance sheets). In addition, the COMPLEX does not go beyond the borders of the state, therefore it is not subject to registration and interstate agreements.
In addition, you want to conduct the Complex across the whole country - therefore, send security officers to all stations to control the passage of a letter train with dangerous goods, and at large stations to control the direction of this train to long-distance sidings or empty branches on the way to the stations. In addition, many military units have branches to their warehouses, and you can go there. This is just an organization to evade surveillance.

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

You take into account what is not. The complex does not carry other people's cars, it can move along the Russian Railways grid like an ordinary train according to documents.
He completed patrols and in the military department he goes on the next patrol with a change of legend. In addition, other departments have many wagons for various purposes (they have them on their balance sheets). In addition, the COMPLEX does not go beyond the borders of the state, therefore it is not subject to registration and interstate agreements.
In addition, you want to conduct the Complex across the whole country - therefore, send security officers to all stations to control the passage of a letter train with dangerous goods, and at large stations to control the direction of this train to long-distance sidings or empty branches on the way to the stations. In addition, many military units have branches to their warehouses, and you can go there. This is just an organization to evade surveillance.

You won’t understand one thing - all these camouflage measures worked in the USSR and in the Russian Federation in the 90s - after 2000 it was all outdated, technologically meaningless and impracticable ....
This is one of the reasons for decommissioning -Impossibility mask this object.

And this is me formation plan I don’t touch. You probably think that trains carry loads in a straight line ???
A wagon with a load from Uralsk (RK) to Ozinki (RF) with a distance of 120 km between them, we don’t go directly to Ozinki - but all the time according to the formation plan - through Orenburg-Samara-Saratov .....

[svoroponov]

It is immediately obvious that you are not familiar with how transportation is carried out in reality, including military ones. Some kind of tracking of each car, albeit a civilian one. Well, they will write from point A to point B a planned train with a number like this, the number and numbers of cars, for example, and they will let the COMPLEX. And who will follow this there if they follow this linden and will confirm fake data on requests. Do you think the Americans have a register of the entire rolling stock of Russia? And on each car there is an identification system? Don't think without knowing.
And the military staff generally only goes under the number without indicating what and how much. Only the danger of the cargo is indicated, but they may not indicate it.

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

It is immediately obvious that you are not familiar with how transportation is carried out in reality, including military ones. Some kind of tracking of each car, albeit a civilian one. Well, they will write from point A to point B a planned train with a number like this, the number and numbers of cars, for example, and they will let the COMPLEX. And who will follow this there if they follow this linden and will confirm fake data on requests. Do you think the Americans have a register of the entire rolling stock of Russia? And on each car there is an identification system? Don't think without knowing.
And the military staff generally only goes under the number without indicating what and how much. Only the danger of the cargo is indicated, but they may not indicate it.

That is, you are not aware of the Russian Railways document flow ...
The military train comes with the numbers of the wagons, indicating the danger of the cargo, the presence of security, sealing, couplers, and so on. It doesn’t reach you that behind every wagon in the country there is an owner who drips money and who controls this process.

Even in the USSR, there were receivers at each section of the distance - who met each train and checked by number according to the PPV, as well as their condition, sealing, and so on.

[svoroponov]

Are civilians checking the military?. What kind of couplers if the train is in transit through the stations without stopping. Although it is possible to attract couplers for the sake of appearance, well, they drive empty cars back and forth to and from the Complex. In addition to civil documents for Russian Railways, there are other special documents. And the composition belongs to the Ministry of Defense, and to whom is the money dripping? And if the military personnel goes according to fake documents, and if it is official, what money and from whom? State from the state? Well, okay, but let's say the bill is issued overall and not for each composition, specifying what kind of composition it is. Payment for the service for using the Russian Railways structure from Min. Defense. And this can be in the total amount of payments between state financial agencies and the military, and only after the provision of the service. And what will it give you in terms of the COMPLEX?

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

Civilians checking the military?

Didn't you know? What ALL trains are inspected at the stations? and even more than once - if the stations are butt!!!

Quote: svoroponov

if the train is in transit through stations without stopping.

- if the train goes without stopping - then for sheer demoskating, all he has to do is hang a banner on the locomotive - "We are bringing vigorous missiles !!!" ...
ALL Russian Railways roads then begin to move schedules. That is, the train goes to Pskov - and the Far East moves its schedules because the Volga railway shifts its schedules, and that, in turn, shifts the schedules of some Ryazan railway ...

Quote: svoroponov

And the composition belongs to the Ministry of Defense, and to whom is the money dripping? And if the military personnel goes according to fake documents, and if it is official, what money and from whom? State from the state?

The Moscow Region owns a limited number of rolling stock - mainly track builders. The Moscow Region does not have its own conventional wagons / platforms. rental wagons, and belonging to anyone ... Russian Railways have not had their own wagons for a long, long time.

[svoroponov]

You have no idea how many trains go non-stop even through the junction stations. From China, for example, they stop only to change the brigade and refuel, having waved up to a quarter of the country.
In general, the dispute is pointless. If you need to hide, hide!
Well, the weather will help us. Cloudiness terribly limits the possibilities of specific reconnaissance. Continuous, sluggish or multi-layered clouds, which are mainly spring, autumn and winter, especially in the middle and northern latitudes, practically reduce the efforts of specific satellite reconnaissance to zero. Even the Americans recognized this.
By the way, according to the downed Boeing in Ukraine. The Americans cannot provide data on the launch of the rocket, since clouds hung over that area and they could not accurately determine the launch site under the clouds. There is a photo of the area from a Russian satellite that day.

[your1970]

Quote: svoroponov

From China, for example, they stop only to change the brigade and refuel, having waved up to a quarter of the country.

That is, you do not know that the driver regularly passes knowledge of his distance and his ways ??? And they will simply not let him out beyond the limits of the surrendered !!! And this is not a quarter of the country - a crazy theoretical maximum - within the same road

Zy. I repeat - you ran into satellites - which nafig are not needed if there is a hole in the computer ...
Moreover, the piece of iron at the station level does not even have the minimum tolerances, and for leaked information - it will not be responsible for the disclosure of secret information, no one trusted them

[KERMET]

By the way, there were no obligations to destroy the BZHRK under START

[svoroponov]

https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2020-02-14/12_1081_train.html

[KERMET]

At least you yourself follow your link and look at the dates

[svoroponov]

It was just a question of who is to blame for the fact that the complexes were removed from the troops. So I gave a link, there you can read who.

[KERMET]

There is nothing there, officially there is not a single intelligible explanation for its destruction - the START treaties at the time of this decision did not oblige anything in this direction

[svoroponov]

It’s not about documents, but who made the decision to withdraw the complexes from circulation. Who should be put up against the wall.

[KERMET]

But who will put it will say another cunning plan and a multi-move

[A1096]

Enchanting sensations from this train. In the 0s in Moscow at the station. Malenkovskaya, when crossing the tracks, decided to let the approaching train pass. I was immediately surprised by the head locomotive - a 2M62 diesel locomotive, which is completely uncharacteristic for roads with a contact network. An assumption about the BZHRK immediately arose and it was justified - three twin locomotives dispelled all doubts. Standing 1 meter away from a passing elusive train that poses a mortal threat to the enemy and the entire planet is the rarest case. And it was monstrous - at a very moderate speed, the earth literally shook, the rails groaned and bent even on concrete sleepers, and the passenger platform staggered. Only 8-axle refrigerated wagons with a mocking inscription "Lightweight Cargo" passed by. It is surprising that after the passage of the train, which looked like a small earthquake, nothing fell apart and did not break. It is clear that the railway workers are horrified by such trains - everything needs to be checked before and after, but you can get it in full.

Smiled amateurish posts about tracking these trains. A classmate was doing research and development on the order of some murky organization to recognize cars on the tracks and marshalling yards using radars installed directly on the poles of the contact network. For this work, Hittite Microwave components, which are limited for export to our country, were even punched. Of course, he is not aware that only the US DIA could act and finance this work as a shadow customer. An experienced and talented developer of automated image recognition systems was not able at that time to bring the work to an acceptable result and fulfill the requirements of the terms of reference. And there it was supposed to use a departmental network to transfer data about cars, to remove information from which is a matter of technology and a completely solvable task, since all the equipment is imported. The enemy in real time could receive information about the movement of the BZHRK through the nodal stations, but it did not work out. And here they talk about "all-seeing" satellites. And indeed, such a constellation of satellites was created, its cost was a multiple of the cost of the BZHRK creation program, and they did not succeed.

[edelweiss968]

Quote: Sergey Valov

Regarding invisibility from space. Taken from WIKI.
The composition of the BZHRK includes a train of a standard configuration for the complex:

three three-car launch modules with RT-23UTTH ICBMs;
command module consisting of 7 cars;
tank car with stocks of fuel and lubricants;
two locomotives DM-62.
A total of 17 wagons.

mdya ... do not look for easy ways! the impression is that the army is generally supplied through space, the point is to add a few more wagons with supplies according to the army order. and deliver what you need along the way. it is even easier to create several "floats" through which to draw up the necessary documentation. with a sump in some kind of semi-underground depot

[Spring fluff]

why bother with trifles - immediately offer private silos. For empty ones, in which potatoes are stored, the subsidy is smaller, and if with a rocket, then it’s understandable more money, a surcharge for secrecy and harmful conditions. work laptops and flash drives are forbidden to lose and in network games so that they do not play in these offices, at least from computers where the information is important. and if at the right time the launcher does not work, then the subsidies should be severely denied!

[Igor Litvin]

Quote: prior

It is not the BZHRK that needs to be restored, but the Soviet Power.
Otherwise, the BZHRK will not help ......

Brilliant! Champagne will be opened in Washington right away! Again, Russia will not export, but will buy everything except oil: from wheat to tape recorders.

[KERMET]

What you are describing is a long-term perversion of Stalin's ideas started by a stupid maize man. It is not at all necessary to repeat mistakes, the main thing is that the world's first system of this type has shown its viability

[Igor Litvin]

"Showed viability" by ruining colossal human and material resources?! With such resources, it was possible to "show the viability" of at least feudalism. And what, no conclusions? All from the beginning, from scratch, with the same rake in the same place on the forehead?

[KERMET]

In your fantasy world, everything was ruined, in real life there was a steady growth of material and human resources, and

Everything from the beginning, from scratch, with the same rake in the same place on the forehead

as you suggest

[Igor Litvin]

about "rsta" you can tell the youth, who did not see this "growth" herself

[KERMET]

Yes, it’s not like FIG at all - continue to live in your world

[meandr51]

For some reason, the Defense Ministry ignores the cheaper and more reliable Chinese method: 10 empty ones are built for one military silo in the ICBM deployment areas. You can also play "thimbles" if that ...

[darkesstcat]

The cut will be as if they are all 10 fighting. This is not China where they can put up against the wall.

[DAK70]

Quote: your1970

Quote: svoroponov

Therefore, the Americans asked them to be removed from service, because their control over movement was not possible.

Yep ...
- where is your mailbox 12345 here?
- we don't know.
- well, a torpedo plant!
- aa .. a little further - there is a hole in the fence behind the checkpoint ... (c) USSR
ANY RAILWAYER could tell what kind of cars, where and why ...
And those who saw PPVshku- those could tell everything.
And now it is enough to have access to ETRAN and you can draw all the necessary conclusions

They didn't know what we were carrying and where we were from and where we were going. They just knew that they had come from the Omsk station to the Novosibirsk station, but they didn’t know that we left much earlier and were going even further, since this data was not transmitted by the Ministry of Railways, only the current stations. Well and so on

[DAK70]

Quote: svp67

Quote: aleks neym_2

Outside, an ordinary refrigerator,

You can already do without it. Moreover, the patrol area of ​​​​this BZHRK was limited, precisely because of its weight

Which one is limited? Do not tell me, otherwise the total length of the routes of the regiments was very long.

[DAK70]

Quote: edelweiss968

Quote: Sergey Valov

Regarding invisibility from space. Taken from WIKI.
The composition of the BZHRK includes a train of a standard configuration for the complex:

three three-car launch modules with RT-23UTTH ICBMs;
command module consisting of 7 cars;
tank car with stocks of fuel and lubricants;
two locomotives DM-62.
A total of 17 wagons.

mdya ... do not look for easy ways! the impression is that the army is generally supplied through space, the point is to add a few more wagons with supplies according to the army order. and deliver what you need along the way. it is even easier to create several "floats" through which to draw up the necessary documentation. with a sump in some kind of semi-underground depot

WIKIPEDIA has an error in the description. Particularly touched was the name of the autonomous reserve car (VAZ), in the tank car.

[DAK70]

Quote: your1970

Quote: svoroponov

It is immediately obvious that you are not familiar with how transportation is carried out in reality, including military ones. Some kind of tracking of each car, albeit a civilian one. Well, they will write from point A to point B a planned train with a number like this, the number and numbers of cars, for example, and they will let the COMPLEX. And who will follow this there if they follow this linden and will confirm fake data on requests. Do you think the Americans have a register of the entire rolling stock of Russia? And on each car there is an identification system? Don't think without knowing.
And the military staff generally only goes under the number without indicating what and how much. Only the danger of the cargo is indicated, but they may not indicate it.

That is, you are not aware of the Russian Railways document flow ...
The military train comes with the numbers of the wagons, indicating the danger of the cargo, the presence of security, sealing, couplers, and so on. It doesn’t reach you that behind every wagon in the country there is an owner who drips money and who controls this process.

Even in the USSR, there were receivers at each section of the distance - who met each train and checked by number according to the PPV, as well as their condition, sealing, and so on.

If you described the situation of Russian Railways working with BZHRK, then you are greatly mistaken as it was. They didn't come close to us. The maximum that they did at the station was refueling from pumps with water at our request. Everything.... !!!! What checks, what descriptions, what seals!!!!! The driver was getting warnings along the route from the duty officer to the next station and that's it!!!! What kind of Russian Railways bosses are there, what did they know !!!!! Yeah !!!

[DAK70]

Quote: your1970

Quote: svoroponov

Civilians checking the military?

Didn't you know? What ALL trains are inspected at the stations? and even more than once - if the stations are butt!!!

Do you know that there was a movement group in the DS of the regiment that dealt with this and other issues with the rolling stock. RZD inspector trains did not come close.

[DAK70]

Sorry to all the participants in the discussion of this article, but I have not yet heard so many "enchanting" conclusions on various issues of operation and other topics on the BZHRK.

[DAK70]

Quote: Spring Fluff

The trains are controlled by civilian information networks. There is quite a complicated logistics. Information is available to an unlimited number of persons. And you propose to build into this system some kind of separate trains / wagons with security, with requirements for handling (do not unhook / do not attach, do not leave without security (and here its supply) at a dead end, ...), with requirements to enter a certain time to certain points (read - military bases) for loading / unloading / maintenance / changing guards. What priorities will they have in comparison with civilian trains in terms of passage, who will coordinate this. These compositions will glow among others like a central Christmas tree. It will look especially enchanting on a satellite image, as in an open field (in a deep forest) something is being brought to this train (and in order for something to turn out in the forest, this very thing must be delivered there from somewhere). And the dispatchers at this time are watching the train in the field for a little while and waiting, and the residents of the surrounding settlements are watching how trucks are carrying something to the train.

What trucks, what a field!!!!! What locals! What dispatcher. !!!!! You had nothing to do with the BZHRK, judging by your thoughts, but write.

[Bat039]

I believe that the BZHRK in the Russian Federation needs to be revived. They will be cheaper than nuclear submarines, and in terms of stealth they will have a similar potential.

[meandr51]

And the number of missiles is the same?