Military Review

Father of Russian seaplanes. Dmitry Grigorovich

76
Father of Russian seaplanes. Dmitry Grigorovich
Mouth of the Neva. Seaplanes M-5 on the water, M-9 in the air and the boat "Baklan", photo: goskatalog.ru

Dmitry Pavlovich Grigorovich, together with Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky, were outstanding aircraft designers of their time. Both designers were born in Kiev, but after the revolutionary events of 1917, their life paths diverged dramatically. Dmitry Grigorovich remained in the Soviet Union, while Igor Sikorsky emigrated to the United States.


In the USSR, Dmitry Pavlovich Grigorovich continued to work in the area in which he had achieved success back in the Russian Empire. The aircraft designer stood at the origins of the domestic hydroaviation, creating a whole series of successful flying boats. In addition, Grigorovich created the first serial Soviet fighters and managed to work closely with another outstanding Soviet aircraft designer, Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov.

Grigorovich fell ill with aviation back in Kiev


Dmitry Grigorovich was born in Kiev in 1883 in the family of a sugar factory manager and the daughter of a zemstvo doctor. Before the outbreak of the First World War, he managed to get an excellent education. After graduating from a real school, he studied at the Kiev Polytechnic Institute, after graduating from which in 1909 he studied at an institute in Liege for at least a year. Even at the institute, Grigorovich began to take an active interest in aviationwhich is rapidly gaining popularity.

Grigorovich studied at the Kiev Polytechnic Institute at the same time as another outstanding designer Igor Sikorsky, the future creator of the famous Russian Knight and Ilya Muromets aircraft. The designers took their first steps in aviation literally in the neighborhood.

Dmitry Pavlovich Grigorovich, photo, 1930s, goskatalog.ru

Grigorovich made his first attempt to create his own aircraft in Kiev. The first airplane, which the designer unpretentiously designated "G-1", was assembled literally in a barn from what was at hand. Finish this aircraft, which was planned to be equipped with a 25 hp engine. s., Dmitry Grigorovich could not because of the lack of necessary funding.

In 1911, Grigorovich moved to St. Petersburg, where for some time he was engaged in journalistic work, published the journal Aeronautics Bulletin. But already in 1912, Dmitry Pavlovich became the technical director of the plant of the First Russian Association of Aeronautics Shchetinin and Co. Grigorovich became technical director a month after working at the enterprise, so much his knowledge in the field of aviation impressed the owners of the plant.

In 1913, the Donnet-Lévêque flying boat accidentally entered the factory, which needed repairs to the bow. This particular case had a huge impact on the whole life of Dmitry Grigorovich, who thoroughly studied the design of a flying boat and fell ill with hydroaviation. Even before the start of the First World War, Dmitry Pavlovich managed to make his own model of a flying boat, which received the designation M-1 (“Sea First”).

Grigorovich rethought the very idea of ​​a seaplane


The damaged French seaplane Donnet-Lévêque Grigorovich dismantled literally to the screw. The work done prompted the designer to the idea that the Europeans make one important mistake - they take an ordinary airplane and install it on a float chassis. In turn, Dmitry Grigorovich realized that the "flying boat" in the first place should be just a boat.

Launching the M-5 flying boat, 1923, photo: goskatalog.ru

Based on the findings, Grigorovich created his own hydroplane drawings. In the project he proposed, the seaplane fuselage was built according to the type of sea vessels. By the end of 1913, the designer presented the first designs of his flying boats, which he continuously improved. The fifth version of the seaplane, which appeared already during the war years, became truly successful. The previous models M-1, M-2, M-3, M-4 did not suit Grigorovich with either their seaworthiness or insufficient flight characteristics.

But the flying boat of the fifth modernization completely satisfied both the designer and the sailors. The M-5 flying boat was ready in early 1915. The double wooden biplane was so successful that it outlasted the empire. Serial construction of the M-5 continued until 1923. The take-off surface for the M-5 flying boat could be any water surface, the only limitation was the wave height - no more than half a meter.

Seaplane-mounted 100 hp engine. from. allowed to fly at speeds up to 105 km / h, the maximum flight altitude reached 3 meters, and the flight duration - up to 300 hours. With a total weight of 4 kg, the M-960 flying boat, which entered service with the Russian fleet as an artillery spotter and reconnaissance aircraft, she could take on board more than 300 kg of payload.

On April 12, 1915, the M-5 flying boat performed its first combat flight. Subsequently, boats of this type were used in the Black Sea and the Baltic, including for bombing attacks on enemy targets. The plane could take up to two 160-kg bombs on board. In addition, the seaplane had a 7,62 mm Vickers machine gun, so that the pilot and reconnaissance aircraft, located side by side in a large cockpit in front of the fuselage, could also conduct air combat with the enemy.

Grigorovich's flying boats fought in the Black Sea and the Baltic


Grigorovich's flying boats turned out to be most welcome, and already at the height of the war they were put into serial production. In 1916, one of the most famous episodes of the First World War took place with their participation. On February 6, 1916, 11 Russian M-5 flying boats immediately took off to bombard the Turkish port of Zonguldak. Aircraft dropped 38 bombs on the port, sinking a large coal transport and several cargo sailboats.

Flying boat M-9, photo: goskatalog.ru

The raid, which lasted a total of 20 minutes, ended successfully, with all 11 seaplanes returning to base. The air attack on the port itself showed that seaplanes were becoming a formidable military force. In the same year, an entire aviation division was already operating in the Black Sea, the fleet included 32 seaplanes and four air transports.

Grigorovich continued to improve his flying boats. The next successful project was the larger seaplane M-9. Grigorovich himself characterized the "nine" as a heavy seaplane, which was a biplane with a pusher engine located in the rear of the fuselage. The M-9 flying boat received a more powerful 160-horsepower French engine, which increased the aircraft's performance. Also, this flying boat received a more durable fuselage. Strengthening the fuselage allowed the M-9 seaplane to land even in a snowy field. Following the projects of the M-5 and M-9 boats, other successful projects followed.

For example, the first seaplane fighter M-11, built in a series of 61 cars. This seaplane, which began to be assembled in July 1916, was armored for the first time in the form of steel plates 4–6 mm thick. At the same time, in 1916, the M-81 reconnaissance flying boat was launched in a large series of 15 aircraft.

The joint project of Mikhail Shishmarev and Dmitry Grigorovich stood apart in this military work. It was the world's first naval torpedo bomber - a special-purpose hydroplane (GASN). The implementation of the project in 1917 was prevented by the October Revolution that began in Russia. Before the start of the revolutionary events, the fleet planned to purchase 10 of these seaplanes, but in reality only one was built, which was damaged during the tests.

Torpedo bomber GASN M. M. Shishmarev and D. P. Grigorovich. Petersburg, 1917, photo: wikimedia.org

It was planned to install two Renault engines with a capacity of 250 liters each on a biplane torpedo bomber. from. every. A naval torpedo bomber on a float chassis could take on board one torpedo or bombs weighing up to 480 kg. The crew of the aircraft consisted of 3-4 people and included two gunners who were supposed to protect the front and rear hemispheres of the aircraft.

Despite the failure with the GASN, all Grigorovich's flying boats during the First World War, especially the M-5, M-9, M-11 and M-15 seaplanes, proved to be the best, literally falling in love with the sailors. On the Black Sea, Grigorovich's flying boats were used to bombard Turkish ports, on the Baltic Sea they participated in covering amphibious assaults, and also attacked German ships and fought air battles with German aircraft.

Creator of the first Soviet fighters


The creator of domestic hydroaviation had a hand in the appearance in the USSR of the first fighters of his own design. Having moved to Moscow in 1922, Grigorovich headed the design bureau of the GAZ plant No. 1 (the former Dux plant). Here Dmitry Grigorovich implemented the project of the first Soviet fighter of his own design - I-1 ("first fighter") under the Liberty engine with a capacity of 400 liters. from. I-1 was produced in a single copy, but for its time the aircraft was a landmark.

On the basis of the I-1 project, which fell short of the tactical and technical characteristics required by the military, Grigorovich created the I-2 fighter, this time choosing a biplane layout. After modernization and fine-tuning, the aircraft under the designation I-2 bis was put into mass production. In total, 211 fighters of this type were produced in the USSR. Of the subsequent aircraft, the projects of Grigorovich's I-Z and IP-1 fighters also reached the assembly line. At the same time, IP-1 became the last aircraft of Dmitry Pavlovich, which was mass-produced.

Fighter I-5, photo: wikimedia.org

The last period of the designer's life contained unpleasant events. He became a victim of a campaign unfolding in the country to combat old specialists, "bourgeois elements" and "eliminate wrecking in production." On August 31, 1928, Grigorovich was arrested by the OGPU and on September 20, 1929, he was convicted by the Collegium of the OGPU of the USSR under article 58, part 7 of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR, receiving 10 years in a forced labor camp.

The outstanding Russian and Soviet designer did not leave for the camp; from December 1929 to 1931, Dmitry Grigorovich worked in the Butyrka prison, where the so-called “sharashka” was organized, in the future TsKB-39 of the OGPU. Here Grigorovich began to work together with Nikolai Polikarpov, who was arrested by the OGPU in October 1929. In fact, Grigorovich was the head of TsKB-39, and Polikarpov was his deputy.

In April 1930, together with Polikarpov, Grigorovich created a fairly successful I-5 fighter. This Soviet one-and-a-half fighter went into a more serious series - a total of 816 aircraft were produced, including three prototypes. At the same time, the successes of Soviet designers were noticed at the very top.

In July 1931, by a decree of the Central Executive Committee of the USSR, Dmitry Grigorovich was amnestied, with the simultaneous presentation of a letter of the Central Executive Committee of the USSR and a cash prize of 10 thousand rubles. After leaving prison, he continued to work at the Central Design Bureau in Moscow, and also, as a professor, he actively taught at the Moscow Aviation Institute, where he headed the aircraft design department.

Aircraft designer Dmitry Pavlovich Grigorovich, 1989 postcard, image: goskatalog.ru

The outstanding aircraft designer died on July 26, 1938 at the age of 55 after a serious illness, the designer had blood cancer. He was buried in Moscow at the Novodevichy Cemetery.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 February 2022 05: 49
    +3
    Thank you!
    I looked for a photo of I-1.

    Pretty advanced design. Reminds me of Junkers.
  2. nikvic46
    nikvic46 21 February 2022 05: 57
    +2
    I watched a post-war movie. Six seaplanes sailed next to the yachts. I have never seen such a picture again.
  3. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 21 February 2022 08: 32
    +4
    I-1 was produced in a single copy, but for its time the aircraft was a landmark. Not much is wrong here. I-1 - flew, but was declared obsolete, and was not accepted by the military.
    He became a victim of a campaign unfolding in the country to combat old specialists, "bourgeois elements" and "eliminate wrecking in production."
    The reason for such an accusation was the decision of the Revolutionary Military Council of the USSR of January 1928 on the unsatisfactory state of aviation technology and its large constructive lag behind the aviation of Western countries. Naturally, denunciations, arrests and "landings" in large numbers began.
    Grigorovich, a talented aircraft designer, who in his short life created or took part in the creation of about 80 aircraft projects.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 21 February 2022 14: 02
      +2
      "denunciations began" and some "radish" set up a denunciation of Grigorovich. He probably expected that Grigorovich would perish there. We do not know who specifically wrote the denunciation of Grigorovich, but it is known for certain: some of the scammers themselves ended up under investigation.
      It would be good: Grigorovich was released, and the scammer was imprisoned
  4. Olgovich
    Olgovich 21 February 2022 08: 34
    -6
    In 1916, one of the most famous episodes of the First World War took place with their participation. February 6, 1916 immediately 11 Russians flying boats M-5 took off to bombard the Turkish port of Zonguldak. Aircraft dropped 38 bombs on the port, sinking a large coal transport and several cargo sailboats.

    The raid, which lasted a total of 20 minutes, ended successfully, with all 11 seaplanes returning to base.


    This was the FIRST strike in the world by naval aviation as part of the world's first AUG against enemy ships hidden in the harbor and the Russian Imperial Black Sea Fleet organized and carried out the operation.

    The AUG included two aircraft carriers (in addition to the battleship, submarines, destroyers), from which they flew 14 aircraft, who shot down 48 bombs and bombed not only the ship, but also the batteries of the Turks, the mine and the port, during a raid that lasted more than an hour.

    Then first a Russian seaplane attacked a German submarine, which thwarted a submarine attack against an aircraft carrier (ASW functions).

    Russian seaplanes bombed Constantinople (Istanbul), Bosporus, Trebizond, Varna, Riza, Rumelia, Sinop etc.

    In 1917, the Black Sea Fleet had 120 flying boats, almost all of DOMESTIC production.

    M-9 is a heavy seaplane for bombing coastal targets, batteries and ships).

    With a 150 hp engine. from. this machine developed a speed higher than many fighters of that time, perfectly kept on the water during a storm of four points, which made it possible to use it on the high seas. Thanks to the concave redan, the plane could land and even take off from the snow. The M-9 also had excellent aerodynamic qualities.

    In September 1916, this was vividly confirmed by the outstanding pilot of the first generation of aviators, Lieutenant Jan Nagursky. He was the first in the world to make two dead loops in a row on a flying boat. No one succeeded in repeating the Nesterov loop on flying boats of other designs.

    Armed an automatic gun with a caliber of 37 mm designed by Shishmarev and four pound bombs, M-9 became the leading naval aircraft of the Russian army in the Baltic and Black Sea theaters of World War I. He brilliantly established himself not only as a naval reconnaissance aircraft, but also as a bomber. It should be noted that due to the successful design and combat qualities of this machine, it became interested in the countries allies of Russia. Several samples of the M-9 were purchased by the United States, and the UK bought its drawings and technical documentation.
    In 1916, the factories produced the fastest at that time armored first in the world the M-11 flying fighter boat, the M-15 naval reconnaissance aircraft, the M-16 special “winter” two-float seaplane (the pilots also called it “Zimnyak”) and the huge three-engine long-range naval reconnaissance bomber and mine-laying MK-1 (“Sea cruiser "")M-11), made its flight and the world's first torpedo bomber Grigorovich".

    Lapotnaya "Russia, yes ....

    But Sikorsky did not eigrate, but fled from the threat of death: out of his huge team of 80 people, only a few survived after the Thief
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 21 February 2022 08: 56
      +1
      And, how is it that, having similar "wunderwafs ...", Russian naval pilots did not melt the entire fleet of the Second Reich?
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 21 February 2022 09: 32
        +5
        Just a comrade above believes in what he writes. And faith is a stubborn thing. She makes the bombing of Zonguldak "the world's first strike by naval aviation as part of the AUG." What's wrong. Semi-automatic cannon becomes automatic. Not the world's first torpedo bomber Grigorovich becomes "the world's first torpedo bomber." Etc.
      2. Region-25.rus
        Region-25.rus 21 February 2022 12: 08
        +5
        And, how is it that, having similar "wunderwafs ...", Russian naval pilots did not melt the entire fleet of the Second Reich?
        interest Ask what
        Maybe.....
        1 - forgot to take icons with you? (Moscow was defended with just one thing)
        2 - the Bolsheviks harmed in every possible way - they sabotaged the production of aircraft, blew up factories for their production, or, becoming pilots, deliberately smeared targets
        3 - the same Bolsheviks, for the Kaiser's money, leaked information to the Germans about the raids and they managed to escape from the blows ..... Well, I hope Olgovich will explain why the "advanced" power in all respects managed to blow through 2 wars in 15 years. laughing Or did the Bolsheviks also try to please Japan in the REV?
    2. Old electrician
      Old electrician 21 February 2022 11: 42
      +3
      But Sikorsky did not emigrate, but fled from the threat of death: out of his huge team of 80 people, only a few survived after the VOR ...

      - again a tale of bloody Bolsheviks and general executions that has set the teeth on edge. Papik Sikorsky was an ardent Black Hundred. As they say, an apple from an apple tree. Therefore, Sikorsky fiercely hated the Soviet government and was not going to cooperate with it under any pretext. It would be more correct to say that Sikorsky rushed over the hill with the stolen goods. The same thing happened with almost all of his associates. Those employees of Sikorsky who did not run away, to your surprise, were not shot, but completed the construction of the Ilya Muromets, who were left behind by the Provisional Government.
      About stolen. Sikorsky supplied unpainted plywood aircraft to the front. Therefore, their service life was measured not in months, but in weeks. After that, the plywood was stratified, the engines were removed from the decommissioned aircraft and put on new unpainted fuselages. Well, the loot, of course, flowed into the pocket like a river. To whom is the war, and to whom is the mother dear. Sikorsky should have been shot for such tricks, but under that power, this thief was a hero of the nation.
      Grigorovich studied at the Kiev Polytechnic Institute at the same time as another outstanding designer Igor Sikorsky, the future creator of the famous Russian Knight and Ilya Muromets aircraft.

      - Sikorsky was not an aircraft designer, but a hardened businessman. "Ilya Muromets" the worst bomber of the First World War. If you want to convince me otherwise, then name any other (even single-engine) bomber of that war with a lower bomb load and range. In aviation universities, "Ilya Muromets" is taught as an example of an illiterate aircraft industry. This is the wunderwafer of the rotten Russian empire, the same as the tanks of Porokhovshchikov and Lebedenko. "Ilya Muromets" is 100% a product of propaganda under the slogan "Russia is the homeland of elephants."
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 21 February 2022 12: 29
        -5
        Quote: Old electrician
        - again a fairy tale about the bloody Bolsheviks and general executions.

        again the lies of the unbleached never, but black forever: for the hundredth time, I propose to show where and when, in what other country of the world in PEACETIME MILLIONS were robbed and exiled своих NOT convicted children (from among peasants), shot for a year (08.37-08.1938) 682 thousand fellow citizens, arrested for the same year 1,7 million people.
        Forward! am
        Quote: Old electrician
        . Papik Sikorsky

        "daddies" and "mothers" feeding their already bald parasites / lazy blancs are their idols.
        Quote: Old electrician
        "Ilya Muromets" the worst bomber of the First World War.

        about the RECORDS of "Ilya Muromets": -this first in the world passenger plane where was heated cabin for passengers, bedrooms, toilet, bath, electric lighting, as well as outputs on the console of the lower wing.

        In 1913–1914 on the aircraft "Ilya Muromets" were installed several records On the 1st plane - a load capacity record (December 12, 1913 - 1100 kg; February 12, 1914 - 1290 kg), on the 2nd plane (IM-B Kievsky - smaller in size, with more powerful engines) - a record altitude (June 4, 1914 - lifted 2000 passengers to 10 m; in 1916, a world record of 2 m was set on a G-5200 series aircraft), flight duration record (June 5, 1914 - 6 hours 33 minutes 10 sec.), flight distance record (June 16-17, 1914 made a flight St. Petersburg-Kiev with one landing).
        Quote: Old electrician
        - Sikorsky was not aircraft designer

        what Russophobia of the brain leads to fool

        List of aircraft designed talented Russian engineer and pilot Sikorsky

        1908-1911 two helicopters
        1912 - S-6, three-seat aircraft.
        1913 - S-21 "Russian Knight", a four-engine biplane.
        1913 - S-22 "Ilya Muromets", four-engine biplane.
        1914/15 - S-16, escort fighter.
        1916 - S-20, single-engine fighter.
        1924 - S-29, twin-engine biplane.
        1934 - S-42 Clipper, flying boat.
        1939 - VS-300, an experimental helicopter prototype.
        1942 - VS-44 Excambian flying boat.
        1942 - R-4, the world's first production helicopter.
        Quote: Old electrician
        their service life was measured in weeks

        lol something they are up to 1922 years operated in passenger and postal transportation lol
        1. Old electrician
          Old electrician 21 February 2022 13: 51
          -3
          again the lies of the unbleached never, but black forever: for the hundredth time I propose to show where and when, in what other country of the world in PEACE time they robbed and exiled MILLIONS of their UNconvicted children (from among the peasants), shot them in a year (08.37-08.1938) 682 thousand fellow citizens, arrested for the same year 1,7 million people.

          We have already discussed Mr. Pavlov's fake certificate that 1937 thousand were allegedly shot in 1937-682. In addition to foaming at the mouth, you have not provided a single intelligible evidence that this certificate is genuine. Now you start the same song over again. It seems to be not yet spring, but you already have a spring exacerbation.
          A touching common moment of all your speeches on the site topwar.ru: you furiously justify any bastard who opposed Russia. Therefore, the only thing you convinced me of was that in 1937 the innocent were not shot.
          As for the fact that under the Soviet regime, the Ilya Muromets flew to obsolescence in 1922, this is only because under the Soviet regime they were painted, and they did not steal money for paint.
          As far as Sikorsky's talents go, there's no point in running through your wretched list of his "accomplishments" from start to finish. Let's just look at its top.
          1908-1911 two helicopters

          The birthday of the helicopter is the date of August 24, 1907, when the French brothers Louis and Jacques Breguet, as well as Charles Richet, who worked with them, made the first successful vertical flight in history. Although this flight was not manned, the device itself took to the air on a leash. In 1908 - 1911, Sikorsky tried to repeat their achievement. This was also an attempt at a tethered unmanned flight, but unlike the Breguet brothers, Sikorsky's helicopters were never able to get off the ground. Well, just a brilliant aircraft designer. The idol of the Olgovichi!
          Not a single Sikorsky aircraft participated in World War II, because he did not know how to design them. But he managed to sell miserable helicopters to the US Department of Defense. Other countries actually participating in the war could not be distracted by such a trifle. Therefore, in conclusion, it remains to say that the adventurer and financial businessman Sikorsky is one of those who really brought the end of the Russian Empire closer. America can be proud of him.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 21 February 2022 16: 10
            -3
            Quote: Old electrician
            We have already discussed with you the false certificate of Mr. Pavlov

            "fake" it is only in fossil "heads"
            Quote: Old electrician
            Therefore, the only thing you convinced me of was that in 1937 the innocent were not shot.

            they were shot by an alcoholic, passive and active homosexual, sadist and coward People's Commissar of the NKVD of the USSR Yezhov (the main executor of order 47), who confessed to fabricating cases.
            Quote: Old electrician
            under Soviet rule, "Ilya Muromets" flew to complete obsolescence in 1922, this is only because under the Soviet regime they were painted

            belay lol Lavrov, yes
            Quote: Old electrician
            Sikorsky's helicopters were never able to get off the ground.

            yeah, that's why the Sikorsky helicopters were released dozens of thousands pieces.
            1. Foul skeptic
              Foul skeptic 21 February 2022 17: 02
              -1
              therefore, tens of thousands of Sikorsky helicopters were produced

              This is the merit of this man
            2. Old electrician
              Old electrician 22 February 2022 08: 13
              0
              Olgovich! What I like about you is your complete insanity in technical matters. You are told that none of the Sikorsky helicopters built in 1908-1911 could take off the ground. In response, you drive a blizzard that they were built in tens of thousands of pieces. Explain why the heck were needed tens of thousands of non-flying helicopters?
              I still don't understand your scoffing about the need to paint plywood planes. In January 1917, an alcoholic, cuckold, hereditary German without a drop of Russian blood Nick-2 Holstein-Gottorp continued to drive Russians to slaughter in the name of the interests of England and France. For this month, there were about 30 ships in the Squadron. Of these, only 4 IMs were airworthy and were at the front. The rest, all as one, made in 1916, in varying degrees of delamination of damp, unpainted plywood, were being prepared for shipment to firewood. The predecessors of these aircraft rotted back in 1915-1916. Let me remind you that 76 of them were built in total. Therefore, the Germans on the Eastern Front did not need fighters. Why are they, if there is a brilliant aircraft designer Sikorsky and a super-duper efficient manager Shidlovsky, who cut tugriks on the supply of these aircraft? Such spaceport "Vostochny" is now being built. Convince me that Sikorsky and Shidlovsky did not know that plywood must be painted to protect it from moisture. Therefore, Shidlovsky, in order to raise the spirit of the soldiers at the front, even with Nick-2, they would have to be hung on a lamppost.
              In turn, IMs completed under Soviet rule in 1918 were painted as expected, which is why they served until 1923.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 22 February 2022 10: 28
                -1
                Quote: Old electrician
                Olgovich! What I like about you is your complete insanity in technical matters. You are told that none of the Sikorsky helicopters built in 1908-1911 could take off the ground. In response, you drive a blizzard that they were built in tens of thousands of pieces.

                What I like about the old ones is the complete insanity in everything: WHERE it says about tens of thousands of helicopters 1908 g? fool
                Lavrov, yes.
                Quote: Old electrician
                I still don't understand your scoffing about the need to paint plywood planes.

                Where did you see the snickering at ... Lavrov? belay

                Tell about magical red paint lol

                Quote: Old electrician
                In January 1917, Russian blood Nick-2 Holstein-Gottorp continued to drive Russians to slaughter in the name of the interests of England and France



                Anglo / Franks died in WWI much more, Russians, unlike WWII, when Russians died orders of magnitude more when a person without a single drop of Russian blood ran around the world, unsuccessfully begging for the 2nd front
                Quote: Old electrician
                For this m

                On 1, the squadron consisted of 03.17 combat-ready ships and 25 officers.

                Leave Bolshevik Russophobic nonsense for your fossils.

                In 1918, not a single sortie of the Muromets was made.
                In 1920, several sorties were made during the Soviet-Polish war and military operations against Wrangel. On November 21, 1920, the last sortie of Ilya Muromets took place.

                Disgrace of painters... lol
              2. fuxila
                fuxila 23 February 2022 18: 00
                0
                hereditary German without a drop of Russian blood Nick-2 Holstein-Gottorp

                You are not an old electrician, but an old fascist. With the amount of Russian blood, the tsar is not all right, but did his skull still have the right one, Aryan? And why didn’t he please you, if he was still a pure German-Aryan?
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 21 February 2022 13: 18
        0
        Where is the information about this
        It would be more correct to say that Sikorsky rushed over the hill with the stolen goods.

        And about it
        About stolen. Sikorsky supplied unpainted plywood aircraft to the front. Therefore, their service life was measured not in months, but in weeks. After that, the plywood was stratified, the engines were removed from the decommissioned aircraft and put on new unpainted fuselages. Well, the loot, of course, flowed into the pocket like a river.

        Well, the cherry on the cake - info for thought
        Those employees of Sikorsky who did not run away, to your surprise, were not shot, but completed the construction of the Ilya Muromets, who were left behind by the Provisional Government.

        Mikhail Shidlovsky, chairman of the board of RBVZ, founder of the Muromtsev squadron, chief of Sikorsky
        https://historicus.ru/mikhail_shidlovskii_tragicheskaya_sudba_osnovatelya_otechestvennogo_aviaproma/
        . For a long time it was not clear how he ended his life. It was believed that he and his son were shot in 1918 while trying to cross the border with Finland. However, from the materials of criminal case No. 9964, stored in the archives of the FSB Directorate for St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region, it follows that in 1919 he was arrested by Chekists. Accused of espionage and shot on January 14, 1921
      3. Fat
        Fat 21 February 2022 14: 00
        -1
        hi Bravo, Victor! Either an NKVD officer of the 30s of the last century, or a master of fiction in the genre of alternative history, could have come up with this wassat
        1. Aircraft Ilya Muromets produced RBVZ, where the chairman of the board was M. V. Shidlovsky.
        Mikhail Shidlovsky graduated from the Naval Cadet Corps and the Alexander Military Law Academy. After retiring, he joined the Ministry of Finance. He was a member of the State Council of the Russian Empire. Since 1900 - a real state councilor. In 1914 he was called up for military service with the rank of major general.
        and was appointed head of the Ilya Muromets airship squadron. Created specifically to exploit the weaknesses of the Central Powers in the airspace on the eastern front, Shidlovsky's squadron became a unique unit. The squadron was first used in combat on February 15, 1915, when it rose from the base in Jablonna (Poland) and attacked the German military base in East Prussia. From that time until the revolution of November 1917, Shidlovsky's squadron inflicted more than 400 strikes on Germany and the Baltic region.
        In 1915, Shidlovsky supervised the manufacture of the first aircraft engine in Russia. In the same year he was awarded the Order of St. Vladimir, 2nd degree. In April 1917, he was accused of incompetence, removed from his post and recalled to Petrograd, and on June 20 he was dismissed from service at the request. According to one version, Mikhail Vladimirovich Shidlovsky and his 18-year-old son were shot by soldiers in August 1918 while crossing the Finnish border. However, in the materials of criminal case No. 9964 of the archive of the FSB Directorate for St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region, it is indicated that in 1919 he was arrested by Chekists on charges of espionage and shot on January 14, 1921.
        In 1998 he was rehabilitated as unreasonably repressed
        Only a complete sheep creates problems for itself in order to have something to overcome heroically.
        2. I regard your post as an attempt to troll Olgovich Obviously: it is not successful enough
        1. Old electrician
          Old electrician 21 February 2022 16: 08
          0
          In 1919, the former head of the EVK, together with his son Mikhail, was arrested by the Chekists. The head of the Oranienbaum aviation division, B.P. Berg, who was involved in the same case as an "English spy", testified that he had repeatedly met with Shidlovsky and talked with him about the political situation and a possible move to America - to Sikorsky.
          It is curious that the testimony of Mikhail Vladimirovich himself and his son is absent in the case. Nevertheless, there is hardly any doubt that Shidlovsky really offered Berg to go to America to I. I. Sikorsky.
          Berg's testimony gave the Chekists a reason to arrest a man whom they themselves called in their documents "the creator of Russian aviation." But first of all, it should be assumed that M. V. Shidlovsky was nevertheless taken because of his son, who was a member of the underground organization "Great United Russia" and was arrested while trying to deliver secret information stolen from the headquarters to N. N. Yudenich " red." Father and son Shidlovsky were sentenced to death. The sentence was carried out on January 14, 1921.
          The criminal case is completed in 1998 and signed by Senior Counselor of Justice V.S. Pugachev's resolution on rehabilitation.

          If someone were caught with information stolen from the headquarters of the "whites", then ... No, not like that. For the slightest suspicion of disloyalty to the White Movement, the “suspect” was brutally killed along with all relatives, including children, without bringing him to counterintelligence. The usual practice of "white" jurisprudence. Even Kolchak admitted this. And here at least half a month the investigation was conducted. Therefore, there is no need for la-la about the innocent victims of political repression. As for the rehabilitation of 1998, it causes nothing but laughter. After the coup d'état in 1991, all those who opposed the Soviet regime were rehabilitated.
        2. Old electrician
          Old electrician 21 February 2022 16: 35
          0
          From that time until the revolution of November 1917, Shidlovsky's squadron inflicted more than 400 strikes on Germany and the Baltic region.

          Typical bomb load IM 10 pounds (164kg). As of January 1917, only 4 MIs in the Squadron were airworthy and were at the front. Terrible power! And how did the Kaiser not give up after that?
          Comparing IM with German aircraft is simply ridiculous. The latest modifications of the "Rizenov" carried up to 4 tons of bombs. In 1917, the English Regiment, the English Regiment, was created from them, the world's first strategic aviation unit. Just do not need here snotty tales about the strategic squadron of IM in 1915. In terms of flight range and bomb load, the IM was and remains the only four-engine tactical bomber in the world.
          The "Rizens" of the "English Regiment" were equipped with radio stations and navigation equipment for night flights. At the end of the war, even radio navigation systems appeared on them.
          The goals of the "Rizenov" were English cities and military factories. The main striking force was 5 Zeppelin Staaken R of various modifications, which were given 38 twin-engined Goths as escort fighters. For 11 raids on London and Sheerness, the "English Regiment" dropped more than 30 tons of bombs. Air defense was powerless against them.
          The most productive was the Zeppelin Staaken R.VI with tail number R.39/16. For 20 raids on England and France, he dropped 26 tons of bombs - more than all the IMs combined during the First World War. He also dropped the largest bomb of the First World War weighing 1000 kg on London. From the weight of such a bomb, IM would have broken in half even before takeoff.
          PS. My question of naming a World War I single-engine bomber is stubbornly ignored. But how many unsubstantiated cries that Russia is the birthplace of elephants.
          1. Old electrician
            Old electrician 21 February 2022 16: 40
            0
            Correction due to a typo: My question to name a single-engine bomber of the First World War is worse than an IM is stubbornly ignored. But how many unsubstantiated cries that Russia is the birthplace of elephants.
            1. John22
              John22 22 February 2022 20: 32
              +1
              Until 1916, there were no multi-engine bombers other than IMs. In 1916, a single-motor Sopwith-one and a half rack lifted 114 kg. bombs. IM - design in 1914, and at that time design and strength calculations were developing rapidly. The load on the wing increased, etc. In 1917, the single-engine DH4b was already carrying 254 kg of bombs. A 2-engine Vickers Vimy FB27 in 1917 raised 1123 kg of bombs. Everything depended on the power of the engines and the novelty of the airframe design. There were no powerful engines in Russia and IMs flew even on two engines.
          2. John22
            John22 22 February 2022 20: 06
            0
            C-22 IM-B No. 136-139 in 1914 lifted up to 300 kg of bombs.
            s-23 IM-V No. 150,151 in 1915 carried 490 kg of bombs.
            10 pounds raised prototypes. whistle quieter.
    3. Region-25.rus
      Region-25.rus 21 February 2022 12: 01
      +1
      Lapotnaya "Russia, yes ....
      Olgovich ... well, it’s not even funny anymore, right! wassat In his anti-Soviet frenzy, he completely beguiled the edges of logic. laughing
      It remains only to declare Grigorovich a traitor to the monarchy for having defected to the Bolsheviks! And they killed him in the dungeons (the 38th year), the evil NKVD officers (and even Stalin personally) And they told everyone that he died of cancer. How is this version of Olgovich? wink
      Russian seaplanes bombed Constantinople (Istanbul), the Bosporus, Trebizond, Varna, Rize, Rumelia, Sinop, etc.
      and what? Directly bombed like the cities of Japan with carpet bombing?
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 12: 20
        +2
        Quote: Region-25.rus
        and what? Directly bombed like the cities of Japan with carpet bombing?

        But I find this rather stupid and arrogant. Russian naval aircraft deserve respect, despite your ideological differences with Olgovich. Don't find? The Marchenko-Lobanov-Rostovsky crew, incidentally, sank Inmingard at Zonguldak with one hit from a 50-pound bomb. Why this cretinism about "carpet bombing"?
        1. Region-25.rus
          Region-25.rus 21 February 2022 12: 25
          +3
          Russian naval aircraft deserve respect
          where did I disrespect?
          Why this cretinism about "carpet bombing"?
          to the cretinism of the statements of a famous character
          py-sy
          get used to talking with emotions hi
    4. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 12: 25
      +3
      Quote: Olgovich
      Armed with an automatic gun caliber 37 mm designed by Shishmarev

      Well, it’s full already, Olgovich .... You write nonsense. turn down the degree)
    5. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 12: 33
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      At the same time, for the first time, a Russian seaplane attacked a German submarine, which thwarted a submarine attack against an aircraft carrier (ASW functions).

      There was no attack. The commander of UB-7, who unsuccessfully attacked the Alexander, wrote in a report that he saw a hydroplane (von Essen) maneuvering on the water through the periscope and preferred to leave. At Essen, by the way, the end of the cable wound around the engine and broke the exhaust valve, it somehow started on eight cylinders to start searching for the boat. What attack? Why these fanfares? The episode is beautiful, epic, but why beat the timpani?
      1. Liam
        Liam 21 February 2022 12: 40
        -1
        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
        Why these fanfares?

        Russia, which we lost, is the birthplace of not only elephants, but also whales
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 13: 15
          +2
          Quote: Liam
          Russia, which we lost, is the birthplace of not only elephants, but also whales

          Well, Olgovich's opponents are also going too far. Like, all scientific and technical thought until 1917 - sucks, epigonism, copyistry, dead-end experiments of amateurs and (sic!) Cut the dough. But after - the triumph of proletarian engineering nuggets armed with Marxist ideas. It's also not possible. hi
          1. Liam
            Liam 21 February 2022 13: 18
            -1
            Nothing surprising. They are two sides of the same medal. Imperial. Only one drowns for the tsarist empire, and the second for the red one. And their arguments are of the same low level, only with opposite signs. Mirror in general
            1. Ashes of Claes
              Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 13: 34
              -1
              Quote: Liam
              They are two sides of the same medal. Imperial. Only one drowns for the tsarist empire, and the second for the red one. And their arguments are of the same low level, only with opposite signs. Mirror in general

              ))
              Agree. Well said.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 21 February 2022 15: 53
              -3
              Quote: Liam
              And their arguments are of the same low level,

              on the other hand, the "high-level" Romanian Gatarbeiter in his "high" comments managed to say NOTHING at all: neither on the topic of the article, nor on the comments, but:
              a slight satirical smile touched Ukhudshansky's lips. He threw back his head and whispered to the birds: "Fluttering? Well, well"
              yes
              You can limit yourself to:
              : "Agree. Polykhaev. “Great idea. Polykhaev.” “I don't mind. Polykhaev, etc.
              and then the thoughtful face will be preserved with a minimum of effort
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 21 February 2022 13: 33
        -1
        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
        There was no attack. The commander of UB-7, who unsuccessfully attacked the Alexander, wrote in a report that he saw a hydroplane (von Essen) maneuvering on the water through the periscope and preferred to leave. At Essen, by the way, the end of the cable wound around the engine and broke the exhaust valve, it somehow started on eight cylinders to start searching for the boat. What attack? Why these fanfares? The episode is beautiful, epic, but why beat the timpani?

        then, that everything described WAS:

        Question, why Essen has a cable wound up, didn’t it arise? Essen said:
        Having completed the task, after 50 minutes I returned to the "Emperor Alexander I" and went up to the board for lifting. The ends were thrown to me, and they began to pull me up to the board. At this time, the machines were given full speed ahead, and my apparatus began to be demolished under the stern on the propellers. Following this, the first shot rang out on the ship, the ends were thrown onto the apparatus and tangled on the motore, breaking my exhaust valve. Being two fathoms behind the stern of the ship, suddenly my observer and I noticed an underwater mine heading for our apparatus. Mina walked rather slowly


        А why the ship went full speed and opened fire on the submarine? But because the crew of ANOTHER aircraft under the command the pilot Kornilovich DISCOVERED the submarine, warned the aircraft carrier about the attack and indicated her place.

        As a result, the aircraft carrier managed to retreat to a greater distance (the torpedo only poked Essen's plane, but the impact force was not enough to trigger the fuse), and open artillery fire crumpled the attack of the submarine.
        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
        Quote: Olgovich
        Armed with an automatic cannon
        it's full already, Olgovich .... you write nonsense

        What, in your opinion, is nonsense: they didn’t install it on the M9, first in the world on a seaplane, cannon armament?

        Then look here:
        sometimes the plane was armed cannons "Hotchkiss" or "Oerlikon". It should be noted that this was the world's first cannon armament on a seaplane.
        http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/m9.html

        и
        Armed with a machine gun, and later with an automatic gun caliber..
        https://kpi.ua/ru/grygorovych-about
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 14: 11
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich
          What, in your opinion, is nonsense: they didn’t install cannon weapons on the M9, for the first time in the world on a seaplane?

          First, my nonsense , Olgovich, referred to this:
          Quote: Olgovich
          Armed automatic cannon caliber 37 mm designed by Shishmarev

          None of it is automatic. And to call the modernized hotchkiss "Shishmarev's design" is, to put it mildly, ridiculous.
          Second, the sometimes armed with the M-9 cannon was not the first. The French have already experimented with installing 37mm hotchkiss on the Donne-Deno boat and 47mm hotchkiss on the Tellier boat. This is all in the same 1916 year.
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 21 February 2022 14: 38
            -1
            You are in a hopeless business
            Quote: Olgovich
            Then for the first time a Russian seaplane attacked a submarine Germans

            Quote: Olgovich
            And why ship took full swing and opened fire on the submarine?
            1. Ashes of Claes
              Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 14: 42
              0
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              You are in a hopeless business

              Yes I see)
              All my comments are downvoted without arguments)
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 21 February 2022 15: 05
            -3
            Quote: Ashes of Klaas
            Firstly, my nonsense, Olgovich, referred to this:
            Quote: Olgovich
            Armed with an automatic gun caliber 37 mm designed by Shishmarev

            None of it is automatic. And to call the modernized hotchkiss "Shishmarev's design" is, to put it mildly, ridiculous.

            funny petty cavils on the fundamental question of rifles
            Quote: Ashes of Klaas
            Secondly, sometimes armed with a cannon, the M-9 was not the first. The French have already experimented with installing 37mm hotchkiss on the Donne-Deno boat and 47mm hotchkiss on the Tellier boat. This is all in the same 1916 year.

            So Grigorovich ALREADY installed in the same 1916
            Quote: Ashes of Klaas
            I replied that there was no attack, because I do not consider such a "saw-warned" technique

            no, you wrote something completely different:
            what I saw in the periscope maneuvering on the water hydroplane (von Essen) and chose to leave

            But it was completely different apparatus Kornilovich в AIR, which you did not suspect, he discovered (PLO function) and SIGNED the boat with smokes (dropping on her), he made the attack on the submarine possible. Submarine detection and target designation is one of the main tasks of PLO.

            What's wrong, ashes? belay
            1. Ashes of Claes
              Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 15: 49
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              petty nit-picking on the fundamental issue of a gun is ridiculous

              Well, yes, what do technical nuances mean compared to pathos, I agree)
              Quote: Olgovich
              So Grigorovich ALREADY installed in the same 1916

              You are mistaken, Olgovich. The gun was experimentally installed only in 1917-th year. In the same 1917, it was supposed to convert 50 machines into "cannon" ones (for five hundred built), but it did not come to such a series. So, the superiority of Russia in this matter is clearly exaggerated by you.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 21 February 2022 16: 25
                -4
                Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                Well, yes, what do technical nuances mean compared to pathos

                not pathos, but in comparison with himself fact installation of the GUN on the boat.

                Information about its automation and caliber in general I didn't have to mention, yes.

                A tech. nuances-a question, I think, of interpretations: about the machine. cannon I took from the information the same political institutewhere Grigorovich studied:
                Armed with a machine gun, and later automatic gun caliberbut..
                https://kpi.ua/ru/grygorovych-about

                He writes about the championship in the installation:
                sometimes the aircraft was armed with Hotchkiss or Oerlikon guns. It should be noted that this was the world's first cannon armament on a seaplane.
                http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/m9.htm
                l

                Your sources are not visible

                superiority of Russia in this matter obviously you exaggerated
                .Let's count more DAYS in the installation difference.
                1. Ashes of Claes
                  Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 18: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  He writes about the championship in the installation:

                  airvar? Yes, this is a serious source)
                  Ok, Anthony J. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin in their Flying Guns - World War 1: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1914-32' write:
                  The Russians did produce small numbers of one locally-designed gun, the manually-loaded 37 mm Obukhov, named after the steelworks near St Petersburg where the gun was built. It was produced just before or during the First World War, and reports indicate that ten were sent to the Baltic Sea Division in 1917 and probably a similar number to the Black Sea Division. The gun was fitted to, at least, one Grigorovich M.9 flying boat and presumably other aircraft as well. Ten were still on charge at the Krasnoyarsk hydro aviation base in 1919. No data have survived, except that it was available with case shot ammunition and in 1917 work was underway on a time-fuzed shell.

                  ))
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Let's count the DAYS in the installation difference.

                  Your categorical attitude, Olgovich, prompted you to "count") I am a skeptic, Olgovich. But I, if you have noticed, treat historical personalities and events with due reverence, and not their interpreters. And the lists like "Russophobes! Anti-Soviet!" I have little interest.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 22 February 2022 09: 32
                    -3
                    Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                    airvar? Yes, this is a serious source)
                    Ok, Anthony J. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin in their Flying Guns - World War 1: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1914-32.
                    and Installations 1914-32' write:
                    The Russians did produce small numbers of one locally-designed gun, the manually-loaded 37 mm Obukhov, named after the steelworks near St Petersburg where the gun was built. It was produced just before or during the First World War, and reports

                    Yeah Foreigners Anthony J. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin know better than ourWhen
                    and what guns we were produced - present the mentioned reports.

                    And yes, what are you presenting ... p.Obukhovwhen it was about the gun Shishmareva?
                    Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                    Your peremptoryness, Olgovich, prompted me to "count") I am a skeptic

                    you have some another .peremptory? belay lol

                    Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                    But I, if you noticed, with due reverence I treat historical personalities and events, and not their interpreters.

                    why are you telling me this: I'm not interested Yours interpretations request
                    1. Ashes of Claes
                      Ashes of Claes 22 February 2022 10: 39
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Yeah, foreigners Anthony J. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin know better than ours

                      Paradox, but yes. Proved many times. Of course, you consider yourself objective, sticking out the primacy of the Republic of Ingushetia in everything that is possible?
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      And yes, what do you present ... p. Obukhov, when it was about the Shishmarev gun?

                      Because 37mm hotchkisses were made at OSZ. And the Shishmarev gun "nominal" is only conditional, it's just modernization Hotchkiss, modernization is ideologically the same as the French one, but technically different. I don’t presume to judge whose version of the semiautomatic device is better - hotchkissists or Shishmarev, this is not the point. It's just that they write nonsense here that with the Shishmarev mechanism it suddenly became wildly fast-firing - the arm, damn it, will get tired of loading, yeah. I am ready to listen to where and on what workbenches Shishmarev sawed a dozen of his guns, which were sent to the Baltic, tell me, if not difficult
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      why are you telling me this: I'm not interested in your interpretations

                      Yes, no problem) I'm just for the "whites" and "reds" to stop being rude to each other. Like children, by God.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 February 2022 11: 25
                        -3
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        Paradox, but yes. Repeatedly proven. Of course, you consider yourself objective, sticking out the primacy of the Republic of Ingushetia in everything that is possible?

                        but once for the Shishmarev gun, no, it has not been proven.

                        Everything is subjective, but I don’t see “protrusions”, especially in everything, but of course it’s completely different: Russia was the world leader in the development and use of naval aviation (+ -)
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        Yes, no problem) I'm just for the "whites" and "reds" to stop being rude to each other. Like children, by God.


                        me does not matter- red or white.

                        The main thing-normal man, but such, for some reason, all the time are not red.

                        And then, I didn’t touch anyone, but non-beautiful ones flew in ... belay
        2. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 14: 22
          +3
          Quote: Olgovich
          then, that everything described WAS:

          Damn it, Olgovich, well, you wrote that
          Quote: Olgovich
          for the first time a Russian seaplane attacked a German submarine

          I replied that there was no attack, because I don’t think such a technique “saw-warned” and even more so - further artillery fire from the aircraft and its maneuvering.
          For me submarine seaplane attack - this is a targeted shelling of a submarine from onboard weapons and dropping bombs. What the hell is wrong? Do you also consider the work of the letnabs "attacks" of those artillery positions that they reconnoiter? Well, by God, Olgovich ..... with all due respect ....
        3. Alf
          Alf 21 February 2022 20: 51
          0
          Quote: Olgovich
          As a result, the aircraft carrier

          Not an AIRCRAFT CARRIER, but AIR TRANSPORT ... Learn the materiel ..
          The first aircraft carrier in the world was built in Britain in 1918, named Argus. And Alexander was an air transport, i.e. equipped with seaplanes and could not provide takeoff and landing from the deck ...
          That's right, why understand the "little things" if the life credo is foaming at the mouth to denounce the "bloody socialist regime" ..
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 22 February 2022 09: 44
            -4
            Quote: Alf
            Not an AIRCRAFT CARRIER, but AIR TRANSPORT ... Learn the materiel.
            The first aircraft carrier in the world was built in Britain in 1918th year, they called Argus.

            Learn the materiel: Aircraft carrier - a class of warships designed for basing on board and combat use of aviation groups in sea areas, including those remote from the aircraft carrier's base. An aircraft carrier is a mobile airbase operating on the high seas.

            First REAL aircraft carrier (carrying seaplanes) was the British aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal, which was put into service in 1915 year. (from)
            Quote: Alf
            foaming at the mouth to denounce the "bloody socialist regime" ..

            belay I barely have time to close myself from the foam of your fossil bone crunches

            But is it okay that ONLY foreign engines were on these truly excellent seaplanes?

            But Grigorovich did not run ...


            Of course, nothing. Yours generally threw the country back 10 years into the Stone Age.

            Grigorovich, like the Academy of Sciences, etc., served not the Bolsheviks, but of Russia.

            And it makes no sense to die at the hands of animals (and Sikorsky has already been sentenced) - there is also no
            1. Ashes of Claes
              Ashes of Claes 22 February 2022 10: 50
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              The first REAL aircraft carrier (carrying seaplanes) was the British aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal, which was commissioned in 1915. (from)

              Ark was an air transport, and not a full-fledged aircraft carrier. And if you consider him such (an aircraft carrier), then he was not the first. In 1913, Hermes was converted into an air tender and during fleet maneuvers in July 1913 he already carried Short's "clamshell" "type 81" on board.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 23 February 2022 12: 06
                -2
                Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                You consider him such (an aircraft carrier), then then he was not the first. 1913th KR Hermes was converted into an air tender

                The definition considers it so, and the very first was: T
                he first seaplane carrier appeared in 1911 with the French Navy La Foudre


                However, HMS Ark Royal was the first ship in history designed and built as a seaplane carrier in 1914

                as written above
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 22 February 2022 17: 57
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              Learn the materiel: An aircraft carrier is a class of warships designed to be based on board and for the combat use of aviation groups in sea areas, including those remote from the aircraft carrier's base. An aircraft carrier is a mobile air base operating on the high seas.

              Of course, I understand that Aunt Vika is our everything, but in military terms it is better to look at specialized dictionaries.
              Aircraft carrier - a combat surface ship, the main combat means of which are deck planes and helicopters. Aircraft equipment (a flight deck, 2–4 catapults, hangars below deck, elevators for lifting and lowering aircraft, storage facilities for ammunition, etc.) ensures the takeoff, landing, and placement of aircraft (up to 100 units). For self-defense, aircraft are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems and anti-aircraft artillery mounts of 100–127 mm caliber.

              © Dictionary of military terms. — M.: Voenizdat. Comp. A. M. Plekhov, S. G. Shapkin.. 1988.

              However, even Vika indicates a distinctive feature of an aircraft carrier - the presence of a flight deck.
              Distinctive features:
              Aircraft carriers are equipped with a flight deck and other means to ensure the takeoff, landing and basing of aircraft and/or helicopters (in particular, a hangar deck, technical facilities for servicing and refueling and arming based aircraft), controls and flight support.
              Takeoff of aircraft from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier can be carried out with the use of launch boosters and launch catapults and / or without their use (for example, by means of a takeoff ramp).

              So RIF aircraft carriers are not aircraft carriers. They are hydrocarriers.
              A hydro-aircraft carrier, also hydro-air transport, an aircraft tender, an aircraft carrier and a hydro-cruiser, is a ship that provides group-based seaplanes with the possibility of launching them into flight and receiving them from water.

              Quote: Olgovich
              The first REAL aircraft carrier (carrying seaplanes) was the British aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal, which was commissioned in 1915.

              Just grimaces of translation. In the English-speaking segment, HMS Ark Royal is considered a seaplane carrier - a hydro-aircraft carrier. Along with the French La Foudre (1912) and the British HMS Hermes (1914).
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 23 February 2022 12: 23
                -3
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Dictionary of military terms. — M.: Voenizdat. Comp. A. M. Plekhov, S. G. Shapkin.. 1988.

                lol you are still a dictionary 3 000 bring the year, there an aircraft carrier will probably be considered a spaceship with star scooters in honeycombs
                Quote: Alexey RA
                So RIF aircraft carriers are not aircraft carriers. They are hydrocarriers.

                are, because hydrocarriers are a special case aircraft carriers, about which, without grimace of translation, it is written:
                aircraft carriers are warships carrying scores of fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft.

                balloon carriers were the first ships to deploy manned aircraft, used during the 19th and early 20th century, mainly for observation purposes. The advent of fixed-wing aircraft in 1903 was followed in 1910 by the first flight from the deck of a US Navy cruiser. Seaplanes and seaplane carrier such as HMS Engadine , [b]followed


                In the English-speaking segment, HMS Ark Royal is considered a seaplane carrier - a hydro-aircraft carrier. Along with the French La Foudre (1912) and the British HMS Hermes (1914).

                HMS Ark Royal is the first REAL aircraft carrier, because it was specially designed and built, as such, and not alterations of La Foudre 1911 year.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 23 February 2022 12: 40
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  are, because hydro-aircraft carriers are a special case of aircraft carriers, about which it is written without grimace of translation:

                  It is interesting how from the phrase that aircraft carriers arose as a result of the evolution of aircraft carriers from carriers of balloons and hydrocarriers, it follows that hydrocarriers - a special case of aircraft carriers?
                  balloon carriers were the first ships to deploy manned aircraft, used during the 19th and early 20th century, mainly for observation purposes. The advent of fixed-wing aircraft in 1903 was followed in 1910 by the first flight from the deck of a US Navy cruiser. Seaplanes and seaplane tender support ships, such as HMS Engadine followed. The development of flat top vessels produced the first large fleet ships. This evolution was well underway by the early to mid-1920s, resulting in the commissioning of ships such as Hōshō (1922), HMS Hermes (1924),[1] Béarn (1927), and the Lexington-class aircraft carriers

                  Hydrocarriers are not a special case, but an ancestor of aircraft carriers. It is no coincidence that they were designated by special terms.
                  It is not for nothing that the first aircraft carrier (more precisely, a hybrid of a hydro-aircraft carrier and an aircraft carrier) is considered HMS Ark Royal - because in addition to seaplanes, it had a take-off deck and conventional wheeled aircraft.
                  HMS Ark Royal was arguably the first active aircraft carrier, as it carried armed seaplanes for use in combat and military operations. She was originally laid down as a merchant ship, but was converted on the building stocks to be a hybrid airplane/seaplane carrier with a launch platform.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 23 February 2022 15: 51
                    -2
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    I wonder how it follows from the phrase that aircraft carriers arose as a result of the evolution of aircraft carriers from carriers of balloons and hydrocarriers that hydrocarriers are a special case of aircraft carriers?

                    pr-rus. Oh! English is clearly written:
                    aircraft carriers are warships carrying scores of fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft.

                    what an aircraft carrier with seaplanes FULLY corresponds to
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Hydrocarriers are not a special case, but an ancestor of aircraft carriers

                    no, then a hollowed out log with a tame parrot on board is an ancestor
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    No wonder that the first aircraft carrier (more precisely, a hybrid of a hydro-aircraft carrier and an aircraft carrier) is HMS Ark Royal

                    of course, not in vain, because HMS Ark Royal
                    was the -FIRST ship in history designed and built as a seaplane carrier in 1914
                    exclusively for hydroplanes.

                    А
                    The deck was not intended as a flying-off deck, but for starting and running up of seaplane engines and for recovering damaged aircraft from the sea

                    And where is ... an aircraft carrier in your understanding? Nope... request

                    And yes, Happy Holidays! hi
    6. Alf
      Alf 21 February 2022 20: 39
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      Lapotnaya "Russia, yes ....

      But is it okay that ONLY foreign engines were on these truly excellent seaplanes?
      Quote: Olgovich
      And Sikorsky did not play, but fled from the threat of death:

      But Grigorovich did not run ...
  5. Yurahip
    Yurahip 21 February 2022 08: 38
    +4
    These "sharashkas" are amazing things! It seems that you are sitting, and then the awards and the Hero of Labor ...
    1. Old electrician
      Old electrician 21 February 2022 16: 47
      +2

      In the photo, the organizer of TsKB-39 OGPU Chairman of the OGPU V.R. Menzhinsky with her "convicts" and guards. The photo of the sharaga was taken in 1931 on the territory of the Butyrskaya prison, where the TsKB-39 OGPU was then located. In the photo under No. 10 Aram Nazarovich Rafaelyants, a designer from the Yakovlev Design Bureau, and under No. 6 the chief pilot of the same design bureau, Yulian Ivanovich Piontkovsky. Both were not subjected to any repressions, but were from among those who were attracted from outside to work in this sharaga. Can you imagine a similar photo with "convicts", for example, the current Minister of Internal Affairs?
  6. north 2
    north 2 21 February 2022 09: 31
    +1
    the article contains an ode to reticence, which can be called inaccuracy. The author writes about the joint successful work of Grigorovich and Shishmarev on the creation of the M-9 aircraft. Innovations in the design of the fuselage and armor, a strong engine, but there is not a word in the article about the main success of Shishmarev for the M-9. Shishmarev developed a 9mm semi-automatic cannon for aircraft for the M-37. Aviation weapons of this caliber abroad were created and entered into practice only a few decades later, although they were not interfered with by such events as in Russia in 1917 to Shishmarev and Grigorovich ...
    1. Foul skeptic
      Foul skeptic 21 February 2022 10: 06
      0
      Shishmarev developed a 9mm semi-automatic cannon for aircraft for the M-37. Aviation armament of this caliber was created abroad and entered into practice only a few decades later.

      And besides Shirokorad, did at least someone write something about the Shishmarev gun? And then I look at the Shishmarev cannon, but I see the Hotchkiss cannon.
      1. avg avg
        avg avg 21 February 2022 10: 51
        -1
        Yes Yes! And in AK you see StG 44! So what? Looks like it!
        1. Foul skeptic
          Foul skeptic 21 February 2022 10: 55
          0
          Let's continue the conversation after you show the explosion diagrams of the guns of Shishmarev and Hotchkiss.
        2. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 11: 36
          +1
          Quote: avg avg
          Yes Yes! And in AK you see StG 44! So what? Looks like it!

          And besides this "what?" there are arguments?
      2. north 2
        north 2 21 February 2022 10: 52
        +1
        37 mm Hotchkiss guns did not have any automation. That is, the shutter opened and closed manually. The rate of fire of such a gun is up to 10 rounds per minute, which is ridiculous even in aviation at the beginning of the 37th century. Shishmarev, on the other hand, created an aviation semi-automatic cannon with a caliber of 1917mm with a much higher rate of fire. From the Hotchkiss gun in the Shishmarev gun, only the barrel remained. A couple of dozen of these Shishmarev guns were produced. Everything became after the events of October XNUMX.
        I mentioned such a 37 mm Shishmarev gun in my comment.
        1. Foul skeptic
          Foul skeptic 21 February 2022 11: 09
          -1
          Shishmarev, on the other hand, created an aviation semi-automatic cannon with a caliber of 37mm with a much higher rate of fire.

          Wouldn't it be difficult for you to voice the rate of fire numbers? Tell me about the ammunition system?
          What you wrote about the Hotchkiss gun is true for starting a war. After completion, the shutter was opened due to automation, but the projectile was fed by the same shooter. And it was already considered a semi-automatic system. That's why I would like to look at the drawing of Shishmarev's gun.
          1. Ashes of Claes
            Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 11: 49
            0
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            After completion, the shutter was opened due to automation, but the projectile was fed by the same shooter. And it was already considered a semi-automatic system.

            That's it. Ordinary parallel engineering. Shishmarev did the same as the French, only placed his spring mechanism around the barrel, and not modularly, like the Hotchkissists. About the "much higher rate of fire" pleased)
        2. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 11: 34
          0
          Quote: north 2
          37 mm Hotchkiss guns did not have any automation. That is, the shutter opened and closed manually

          Is it because Shirokorad wrote that? The French modified the Hotchkiss 37mm to a semi-automatic. It's just that they have a mechanism hidden in a sleeve on top of the barrel, while Shishmarev has a spring around the barrel. These are the same type of modifications of the same weapon, your interlocutor said correctly.
          Quote: north 2
          From the Hotchkiss gun in the Shishmarev gun, only the barrel remained.

          Yes of course....
    2. Old electrician
      Old electrician 21 February 2022 12: 04
      +2
      Shishmarev developed a 9mm semi-automatic cannon for aircraft for the M-37. Aviation armament of this caliber was created abroad and entered into practice only a few decades later, although they were not interfered with by such events as in Russia in 1917 to Shishmarev and Grigorovich

      The word "the only one in the world" has two meanings:
      - this is the highest achievement that no one can repeat;
      - a dead end path of development, which no one began to repeat.
      Alas! Shishmarev in 1917 automated only the extraction of the cartridge case from the very common 37-mm Hotchkiss gun. Manual loading in his gun remained, so the possibility of the effective use of such a freak is very, very doubtful. Another voodoo for propaganda.
      The 37-mm Hotchkiss gun found its first combat use in aviation in 1915 in France, when it was installed on the Voisin biplane. The gun was located in the nose of the fuselage, the aircraft had a pusher propeller. It had only vertical guidance, and was guided horizontally by turning the aircraft.
      Even earlier in Russia (at the end of 1914), a 37-mm Hotchkiss cannon was installed on a 4-engine Ilya Muromets aircraft. The gun was intended to fight the German "zeppelins". However, its tests on the Muromets were unsuccessful. With a weight of 6 pounds (98 kg), the gun had a rate of fire in the air of up to 10 rds / min. The cannon's ammunition load was very small - only 15 rounds, and it was stupidly located on top of the aircraft's fuselage. Therefore, one person had to shoot from it, and the other - to bring cartridges. As a result, the Hotchkiss gun was installed on only one Ilya Muromets, and even that was soon removed. Not a single aircraft with such weapons hit the front.
    3. Alf
      Alf 21 February 2022 21: 05
      0
      Quote: north 2
      Shishmarev for the M-9 developed a semi-automatic gun of 37mm caliber for aircraft. Aviation armament of this caliber abroad was created and entered into practice only after a few decades,

      But what about such a fact?
      The main feature of the new French fighter was, of course, the armament. The rather heavy Hotchkiss cannon had to be abandoned in favor of the latest SAMC 37-mm Puteaux cannon (Semi Automatique Moteur Canon, i.e. “semi-automatic motor cannon”), located in the collapse of the engine block and firing through the propeller shaft . The gun was loaded manually, but the opening of the shutter after the shot and the ejection of the cartridge case occurred automatically.

      Georges Guynemer made his first battle on July 27, 1917, when he shot down a German intelligence officer on a SPAD-12.
  7. Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 10: 22
    +3
    The damaged French seaplane Donnet-Lévêque Grigorovich dismantled literally to the screw. The work done led the designer to the idea that the Europeans make one important mistake - they take an ordinary airplane and install it on a float chassis.


    It is interesting, but how, in fact, according to the logic of the author, Grigorovich understood this "mistake", analyzing "to the screw" Donnet-Leveque, who was precisely flying boat, and not a float HS?
  8. Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 10: 53
    +1
    On February 6, 1916, 11 Russian M-5 flying boats immediately took off to bombard the Turkish port of Zonguldak .... all 11 seaplanes returned to base.

    To clarify: on board the "Alexander 1" and "Nikolay 1" there were 14 seaplanes. Of these, 11 reached the targets, three returned due to problems with the engines.
    Aircraft dropped 38 bombs on the port, sinking a large coal transport and several cargo sailboats.

    4 airplanes took part in the attack on Inmingard and smaller coal miners. The rest, due to dense clouds, did not find targets on the water and bombed the port and the railway terminal.
    By the way, the most alarming episode happened already at the side of the "Alexander 1" - a German submarine appeared and fired a mine into the transport, which, fortunately, did not explode and drowned. Lieutenant Raymond Fedorovich von Essen himself, whose hydroplane was just at that moment ready to board, surprisingly dispassionately describes this episode in his report)
    And one more thing: the first experience of bombing with the GS took place a year before Zonguldak - in March 1915, the Bosphorus batteries were bombed, and in May a raid on Constantinople took place (!). I think the author did not mention
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 February 2022 12: 41
      +2
      Quote: Ashes of Klaas
      4 airplanes took part in the attack on Inmingard and smaller coal miners. The rest, due to dense clouds, did not find targets on the water and bombed the port and the railway terminal.

      I will add:
      Of the 9 seaplanes of the naval aviation of the Black Sea Fleet, the main target - the steamer - was bombed by 4 aircraft: No. 37 and No. 50 of the first detachment; side №№ 32, 47 from the second ship detachment. In total, 10 air bombs were dropped on the Turkish ship: 3 pood, 4 fifty-pound and 3 ten-pound. Only one fifty-pound bomb hit the target, dropped from Lieutenant Marchenko's seaplane (No. 32)

      Moreover, the Irmingard, which had landed on the ground, was put back into operation on February 25. However, already in October of the same year, he was blown up by Russian mines, ran aground and was later finished off by a torpedo from the Narwhal submarine.
  9. Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 11: 00
    0
    It was the world's first naval torpedo bomber - a special-purpose hydroplane (GASN). The implementation of the project in 1917 was prevented

    I didn’t quite understand - why "the first in the world"?
  10. place
    place 21 February 2022 11: 39
    0
    The reason for the arrest was the failure of Grigorovich in recent years, when, starting from 1924, the team he led - the Department of Marine Experimental Aircraft Construction (OMOS), located at the Red Pilot plant in Leningrad, did not create a single worthy machine. By the time of the arrest, OMOS had not existed for almost a year, and Dmitry Pavlovich himself, now in Moscow, headed another design unit - Experimental Department-3 (OPO-3).

    As you can see, already in April 1930, together with Polikarpov LESS THAN HALF A YEAR! they created a successful I-5 aircraft. If you read the biographies of famous designers, you can notice a pattern; "As soon as - so immediately" - their best developments appear. But the periods of foreign business trips are not productive.
    By the way, although Polikarpov was a talented designer, he was also the "USSR champion" in terms of the number of dead test pilots. I recommend; http://testpilot.ru/memo/m1930/ A lot of blood was spilled by Russian pilots ....... The motivation for creative work in Russia works, as you know, according to a simple scheme - from a good pendal !!!
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 21 February 2022 12: 53
      +1
      Quote: ort
      As you can see, already in April 1930, together with Polikarpov, LESS THAN HALF A YEAR!

      Two months, emnip? But the intrigue associated with the history of I-5 is quite interesting and lasted from 1927 to 30)
      Yes, and it took off, in fact, under the symbol VT-11 - "inner turbma-11". Significant)
    2. KERMET
      KERMET 21 February 2022 19: 04
      0
      Quote: ort
      Polikarpov, although he was a talented designer, was also the "USSR champion" in terms of the number of dead test pilots. I recommend; http://testpilot.ru/memo/m1930/ A lot of blood was spilled by Russian pilots

      Blood champion say ....,
      and in competitors, for the creation of aircraft put into service, who will he have in the specified period?
      And if you also start reading for what reasons the test pilots died, then in most cases the question arises: what does Polikarpov have to do with it?
  11. The comment was deleted.
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  13. place
    place 21 February 2022 12: 18
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich
    But Sikorsky did not eigrate, but fled from the threat of death: out of his huge team of 80 people, only a few survived after the Thief

    "After the VOR" the number of researchers grew from 11 thousand people (1913) in the Republic of Ingushetia to 600 thousand (1960) in the USSR. Yes, and "Olgovich" in the heat of the controversy, as it were, "does not notice" that he contradicts himself; the state first creates and finances the activities of the collective in order to shoot everyone ..... Yes, sir .... in the minds of some, the collectives grow "on their own", like mushrooms in the forest and also work "on their own", and the activities of the ruling political parties - not the distribution of financial budgetary flows, but slogans and speeches at meetings ..... by the way, Sikorsky himself believed that he had emigrated, he didn’t care about all this policy of yours, the man was just looking for where he could sell his abilities more profitably.
  14. ivan2022
    ivan2022 25 February 2022 21: 06
    0
    Quote: KERMET
    Quote: ort
    Polikarpov, although he was a talented designer, was also the "USSR champion" in terms of the number of dead test pilots. I recommend; http://testpilot.ru/memo/m1930/ A lot of blood was spilled by Russian pilots

    Blood champion say ....,
    and in competitors, for the creation of aircraft put into service, who will he have in the specified period?
    And if you also start reading for what reasons the test pilots died, then in most cases the question arises: what does Polikarpov have to do with it?

    In general, a curious argument: what does Polikarpov have to do with it, if by definition he is out of competition?
    Ф