Military Review

Bomb on the battleship!

79

The truth is obvious. If we had high-speed aircraft capable of carrying bombs that could cause deadly damage to a highly protected target, there would be a chance to sink the Tirpitz. In the meantime, this is unattainable.
/ opinion of the Royal Navy pilots /


I bring to your attention a small investigation on naval issues. The question is: Are ordinary aviation bombs cause significant damage to a highly protected ship class "battleship"?
What is there that may be obscure - many will be surprised - aviation has long proved its effectiveness: in the twentieth century, thousands of ships of various classes were sinking aircraft, among which were such invulnerable monsters as Roma, Yamato, Musashi, Ripals, The Prince of Wales ", as well as the 5 battleships during the pogrom at Pearl Harbor (although the California, Nevada and West Virginia were subsequently returned to service, there is every reason to believe that their damage was fatal, the ships sank near the shore).

And here comes a curious nuance - almost all these battleships were destroyed by torpedo hits (Oklahoma - 5 hits, West Virginia - 7, Yamato - 13 torpedoes). The only exception is the Italian battleship "Roma", who died in exceptional circumstances - he was hit by two heavy guided bombs "Fritz-X", dropped from a great height, they broke through the battleship through.
However, this is a fairly logical result - armadillos and dreadnoughts always sank only with extensive damage to the underwater part of the hull below the main armor belt. The penetration of shells and air bombs into the surface part of the battleships led to various consequences, but almost never ended with the death of ships.

Of course, all the above facts are true only for highly protected super-dreadnoughts - light and heavy cruisers, and especially destroyers, were destroyed by missiles and bombs, like cans. Aviation attacked its victims with a fiery whirlwind and in a matter of minutes let them go to the bottom. The list of people killed in this way is huge: the Königsberg, Dorsetshire and Cornwell cruisers, hundreds of aircraft carriers, destroyers, transport ships, six British ships during the Falklands conflict, Libyan small rocket ships and Iranian frigates ... But the fact remains: One of the large, well-protected battleships could not be sunk by conventional bombs.

This is especially interesting, given that the last 50 years the only means of aviation in the fight against ships are bombs and anti-ship missiles (whose combat units are no different from bombs). Really, the designers made a deep mistake by refusing to book? Indeed, according to dry statistics, thick armor of battleships can reliably protect against any modern means of attack. Well, try to figure it out.

"Marat". Volleys in immortality.
Bomb on the battleship!

The battleship "Marat" on the right

In fact, there is a case of the loss of a battleship from a conventional aerial bomb. You do not need to go far to the Pacific Ocean for this, the precedent occurred much closer - right at the wall of the Middle Harbor in Kronstadt.

September 23, 1941 the battleship of the Red Banner Baltic was severely damaged there. fleet "Marat" - Yu-87 dive bombers dropped two 500 kg bombs on it (according to other sources - 1000 kg). One of them pierced through 3 armored decks and exploded in the cellar of the main-caliber tower, causing the detonation of the entire ammunition. The explosion interrupted the body of the battleship, almost completely tearing off the bow. The nasal superstructure, along with all the fighting posts, instruments, anti-aircraft artillery, the conning tower and the people there, collapsed into the water on the starboard side. The nasal chimney fell down along with the casings of the armored grates. The explosion killed 326 people, including the commander, commissar and part of the officers. By the morning of the next day, the battleship received 10 tons of water, most of its premises below the middle deck were flooded. "Marat" sat down on the ground near the mooring wall; About 000 meters of board remained above the water.

Then there was the heroic salvation of the ship - the Marat turned into a non-self-propelled artillery battery and soon again opened fire on the enemy from the stern towers. But, the essence is quite obvious: as was the case with the battleships at Pearl Harbor, the Marat would inevitably die if it received such damage in the open sea.

The damaged skeleton of the "Marat", the entire nose of the cut off to the second tower GK


Of course, the case of the "Marat" can not serve as a real example of the death of a battleship from an aerial bomb. By the time of its launch in 1911, Marat was probably the weakest battleship in the world, and, despite the complex modernization in 20, by the beginning of World War II, it was a warship with limited capabilities.

The upper armored hull 37,5 mm thick didn’t meet the security requirements of those years at all. On the lower decks, the situation was no better: the thickness of the middle armored decks - 19-25 mm, the lower armored decks - 12 mm (above the cellars 50 mm). It is not surprising that the German bombs sewed such "armor" as a sheet of foil. For comparison: the armored hull of the “Roma” battleship - 112 mm (!), Which, by the way, did not save him from more powerful aircraft ammunition.
And nevertheless, three 37 mm + 25 mm + 50 mm armor plates could not withstand the impact of an ordinary aerial bombs, dropped from a height of several hundred meters, and this is a reason to think ...

Have filled up Lyalya

An alarming howl of sirens in Altenfjord, thick smoke spreads over the bitter, cool water - the British once again got Tirpitz. Hardly recovered from the attack of the mini-submarine, the German super-battleship was struck again, this time from the air.
On an early frosty morning, 3, April, 1944, 30, Wildcat fighters swept over the German base, firing on the battleship and coastal anti-aircraft batteries from heavy machine guns; »Hail of bombs.
The second wave of cars appeared over the target an hour later - again the 19 Barracudas were covered by three dozen Corsair and Wilquat fighters. During the raid, German anti-aircraft gunners shot out of the ordinary badly - the British lost only two Barracudas and one Corsair. It should be noted that the Barracuda deck bomber obsolete by that time had simply disgusting flight characteristics: the horizontal speed barely exceeded 350 km / h, the climb rate of the entire 4 m / s, the ceiling - 5 kilometers.

Twilight German Warrior

The result of the operation "Wolfram" was 15 hits in the "Tirpitz". British naval pilots used several types of ammunition - mainly 227 kg armor-piercing, fragmentation and even depth charges. But the main element of the whole operation was special 726 kg armor-piercing bombs (the poor characteristics of the Barracuda bomber no longer allowed) - a total of 10 pieces, three of them hit the target. According to the plan, the armor-piercing bombs should have been dropped from a height of 1000 meters, but the pilots overdid it, and in order to get there, they probably dropped to 400 meters - as a result, the bombs could not reach the required speed, and yet ...
The Tirpitz was simply disfigured, 122 German sailors died, more than 300 were injured. Most bombs struck like cardboard 50 mm upper deck armor plates, destroying all the rooms under it. The main armored form, 80 mm thick, withstood the blows, but this did not help the battleship much. "Tirpitz" lost all command-range posts in the bow, the searchlight sites and anti-aircraft guns were destroyed, bulkheads were crushed and deformed, pipelines were broken, and the superstructures of the battleship turned into burning ruins. One of the 726-kg bombs struck the boules under the armor belt, turning the inside out in area IX and X of the waterproof compartments. The seawater intake began as indirect damage: cemented cracks in the underwater hull surfaced from the explosions - the result of a previous mine attack.

Damage to the "Tirpitz". Photos 15 April 1944

In August, the British aviation again attacked the fascist reptile, this time one of the 1944 kg of bombs broke through the upper and main armored decks (726 mm in total steel!), And with a crushing ram went down through all the Tirpitz compartments, turned into a bank with meat to the radio room, just below destroyed the distribution board of the main caliber towers, but, unfortunately, did not explode.

In the end, what was left of the once formidable battleship, finally finished off the four-engine bomber "Lancaster" with the monstrous bombs "Tollboy" (English bruiser). A sleek sleek ammunition with a mass of 5454 kg, filled with 1724 kg of explosives, pierced through the ship along with the water column below it, and exploded when it hit the bottom. A terrible hydraulic blow "Tirpitz" spoiled the bottom. A few more close hits - and Kriegsmarine’s pride tipped up by the keel, like a burnt rusty bucket. Of course, the destruction of the battleship “Tollboy” is a very strange combat reception, but long before the use of these giants, the superlinker 53 displacement thousands of tons completely lost combat capability from a dozen conventional aerial bombs.

The assessment of the Tirpitz combat career is controversial - on the one hand, the battleship alone with its presence in the North terrified the British Admiralty, on the other hand, huge funds were spent on its maintenance and security, and the body of the formidable battleship during the war served as a rusty target for zeroing British machine guns - the feeling is created that the British simply sneered at him, constantly sending exotic killers to Goliath who regularly disabled him.

Nowadays

What conclusions can be drawn from all these stories? To say that a powerful booking does not protect the ship at all would be frank bigotry. Most often protects. But only what is directly under the armor.
All armament, radio electronics, equipment and systems located on the upper deck, in the event of an attack by conventional bombs or widespread RCC "Harpoon", "Exochet", the Chinese C-802 turn into burning debris - the battleship will almost lose its combat capability.

For example, the Iowa-type battleship. At all times on his upper, unprotected deck was something to burn and even explode. In former times, these were dozens of small-caliber artillery installations and 12 light-armored universal caliber towers.
After upgrading the 80s, the assortment of combustible materials on the upper deck of the Iowa expanded significantly - as many as the Tomahawk 32 ABL installations (the armored casing protected them only from small-caliber bullets), 8 of all winds of the Harpoon, 16 missiles unprotected anti-aircraft guns "Falanx", and, of course, vulnerable radars, navigation and communication systems - without them the modern ship will lose the lion's share of its capabilities.

The speed of 726 kg of the British armor-piercing bomb hardly exceeded 500 km / h, modern “Harpoon” or “Exochet” missiles fly twice as fast, while it is naive to believe that the same “Harpoon” is made of Chinese plastic, it still has penetrating semi-submersible warhead. The anti-ship rocket, like the needle of a sea urchin, will go deep into the weakly protected structures of the superstructure and turn everything there. I didn’t even mention the Russian “Mosquitoes” or the promising PKR “Caliber”, which attack the target at three speeds of sound.

On the Internet, various opus periodically appear on the topic: what if the ancient “Iowa” goes to the modern “Ticonderogu” - who is who? Dear authors forget that the battleship was created directly for a sea battle with a surface enemy, and a small missile cruiser - exclusively for escort tasks.
Already by the 60-th years of the twentieth century, booking was almost completely disappeared on ships. 130 tons of Kevlar protection on the destroyer of the Arley Burk URO, will protect the ship unless from small fragments and machine-gun bullets. On the other hand, the Aegis-destroyer was not created for sea battles with surface ships (on the last subseries, even the Garpun missile missile is missing), since the main threat hides under water and hangs with the Damocles sword in the air - and it is against these threats that the Arly Burke’s weapons are oriented. Despite its modest displacement (from 6 to 10 ths. Tons), Ajis-destroyer copes with its tasks. And for strikes on surface targets, there is an aircraft carrier whose aircraft are capable of inspecting 100 thousand square kilometers of ocean surface in an hour.

Sometimes, as evidence of the failure of modern ships, the results of the Falkland War are cited. The British then lost a civilian container ship, two small frigates (full displacement of 3200 tons), two equally tiny destroyers (4500 tons) and an old amphibious assault vessel "Sir Gellahed" (5700 tons) with two 40 mm guns from the period of the Second World War.

War losses are inevitable. But the creation of a ship with heavy armoring will dramatically increase its cost, and the construction of the battleship with a full displacement of 50 000 tons was in those years a completely unreal project for Great Britain. It was easier for the British to lose these 6 "pelvis" than to mount armor on every ship of the Royal Navy. In addition, the losses could be reduced by installing at least the elementary Phalanx self-defense complexes. Alas, the British sailors had to shoot with rifles and pistols in the slow and awkward Skyhawk attack aircraft of the Argentine Air Force. And on the requisitioned container ship there were not even jamming systems. Here is such a self-defense.

The aircraft carrier HMS Furious, 3 April 1944 g. The inscription on the bomb: Tirpitz! That is yours.
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  1. Trailer
    Trailer 21 September 2012 08: 34
    +1
    The question is as follows: Are ordinary air bombs capable of causing significant damage to a highly protected battleship?

    The article is interesting, but I still don't understand - are they capable or not? A little from myself - for "Tirpitz" offensive! Why do all giants end up like this: After the war, the wreckage of Tirpitz was sold out and broken in place by a Norwegian company. Almost the entire ship was cut and taken out. However, a significant portion of the nose of Tirpitz remains where it sank in 1944. In addition, ship’s electric generators were used as a temporary power station, supplying electricity to the fishing industry around Honningsvåg (Norwegian Honningsvåg).

    Currently, some parts of the battleship are used by the Norwegian Road Department (Vegvesenet) as a temporary roadway for repairs [7]. Some parts of the battleship were melted into brooches and other jewelry. In addition, much of the armor plating is stored at the Royal Naval Museum Explosion! (Explosion!) In Gosport, Hampshire.
  2. PSih2097
    PSih2097 21 September 2012 09: 57
    +4
    the eternal race of armor and a projectile (in this case, a bomb), by the way it is not known what would have happened to the "Tirpitz", the Germans finish building this vessel:
    German aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin" "Graff Zeppelin", because even then it was clear that large warships (battleships, superlinkers, drillnouts) are not residents at sea without air cover, no matter how many anti-aircraft guns you shove there, Pearl Harbor is an example of this ...

    The performance characteristics of the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin" (design, 1942)
    Displacement: standard 28 t, total 090 t
    Dimensions: 250 (ow) /262.5x36.2 (31.5 by buly) x8.5 m
    Power plant: 4 TZA "Brown-Boveri", 16 PC "La Moot",
    200 000 hp, 6750 tons of oil
    Speed: 33.8 knots
    Cruising Range: 8000 (19) miles
    Reservation: belt 100 - 60 mm. deck 40 (bevels 60) mm.
    casemates 30 mm. wheelhouse 150 - 30 mm
    Armament: 8x2-150 mm / 55. 6x2—105 mm / 65.
    11 x 2 - 37 mm. 28 x 1 - 20 mm. 2 catapults. 41 - 43 aircraft
    Crew: 1760 people (without air personnel)
    The composition of the air group
    according to the project: 12 diving bombers / torpedo bombers Ju-87C. 30 Bf-109T fighters.

    1. Yuriy3005
      Yuriy3005 22 September 2012 09: 30
      0
      By the way, the unfinished hull of "Zeppelin" went to the USSR, but they did not attach much importance to it, and if I am not mistaken, in 1947 the ship was staged a demonstrative execution, they decided to check the combat survivability of the unfinished ship, and so the "Zeppelin" turned out to be just fantastic -
      ... "During the tests, 24 (!) War charges were detonated on the ship: two FAB-1000 (!!!), two FAB-500, three FAB-250, five FAB-100, four 180-mm artillery shells (weighing 92 kg), six training bombs hit it during the bombing, two 533-mm torpedoes during the attack of boats and destroyers. It should be emphasized that the ship was badly damaged before the tests: the destroyed waterproof bulkheads were hastily repaired, and the damaged watertightness of the decks was not restored at all. " .. (FROM)
      At the same time, the ship never sank !!! Surprisingly, not even that, but that such invaluable experience remained unclaimed in the USSR in the future when designing and building its own TAKR.
  3. mongoose
    mongoose 21 September 2012 10: 53
    -12
    By the way, gentlemen, RI was among the countries that could and built large-tonnage ships, the Soviet Union during the years of the Second World War did not complete more than one of the mortgaged battleships (RI of 8 battleships built 7 during the Second World War, and only the Jewish coup prevented the completion of another series of battleships and a series super linkors
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 September 2012 11: 44
      +4
      Quote: mongoose
      RI of 8 battleships 7 built during the Second World War


      four ships were laid down on June 15, 1909 in St. Petersburg and named for the famous victories of the Russian Armed Forces.

      like a hint
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 21 September 2012 11: 59
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        like a hint

        As if "and these people forbid me to cheat in the nose." The ravings of Ukrainian Natsiks are resting
        1. Santa Fe
          21 September 2012 15: 12
          0
          Quote: Kibb
          Nonsense Ukrainian Natsik rest

          Obviously, the First Patriotic War was 1812.

          Indeed, in recent years, the Republic of Ingushetia has built a large series of Novikov and 8 lux.
          In the USSR for all the time there was not a single lux
          The only project 82, ready for construction, was completely outdated and lagged 15 years behind foreign counterparts. The range of the "Stalingrad" did not allow to reach from Kronstadt even to the North Sea on the economic course.
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 21 September 2012 15: 30
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Obviously, the First Patriotic War was 1812.

            As I understand it, the second in this ray was protected by the PMV, which is ridiculous (maybe I misunderstood, maybe a person has a mess in his head)
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            during the Second World War, not a single new ship was built larger than a torpedo boat)

            Built, or completed? Although generally clear
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The only one ready for construction pr. 82

            And where is "Stalingrad"?
            1. Santa Fe
              21 September 2012 15: 57
              0
              Quote: Kibb
              And where is "Stalingrad"?

              Heavy cruisers pr.82 "Stalingrad" - removed from construction in the early 50s, due to complete obsolescence
              1. Kibb
                Kibb 21 September 2012 16: 01
                +1
                Well this is not WWII
                OFF And by the way, Oleg, I have long wanted to ask (and asked) why did you get the idea that there was an armored FLIGHT deck on Lex and Sarah? They differed in a hangar design uncharacteristic for the Americans, nothing more ...
                1. Santa Fe
                  21 September 2012 18: 02
                  0
                  Quote: Kibb
                  where did you get the idea that on Lex and Sarah there was an armored FLIGHT deck?

                  53 mm steel
                  1. Kibb
                    Kibb 21 September 2012 18: 17
                    0
                    Just not on the flight deck, this is a common armored deck, like the Aurora, many aviks had this. Belt: 127-178 mm,
                    deck: 19 — 51 mm,
                    towers: 19 mm
                    traverses: 127—178 mm
                    1. Santa Fe
                      21 September 2012 21: 06
                      0
                      Quote: Kibb
                      deck: 19 — 51 mm,

                      Essex has a maximum flight 37, hangar armored deck - 64
                      1. Kibb
                        Kibb 21 September 2012 21: 23
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Essex has a maximum flight 37, hangar armored deck - 64

                        So why do you think the Illastries are considered armored and the Essex not?
                      2. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 15: 47
                        0
                        At Illastries, the thickness of the flight deck is three times thicker.
                      3. Kibb
                        Kibb 22 September 2012 17: 53
                        0
                        In addition to this, Elastries has a completely different hangar structure, and as for the thickness of the deck of Esex, do not you think that it should be like a passenger car, it is quite thick but not armored
                      4. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 00: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Kibb
                        and as for the thickness of the deck of Esex, do not you think that it should be like a passenger car, it is quite thick but not armored


                        So what is the conversation about.
                        Essex - flight deck 37 mm thick
                        Illastiries - Flight armored deck thicker than 100 mm
                      5. Kibb
                        Kibb 23 September 2012 18: 26
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Essex - flight deck 37 mm thick
                        Illastiries - flight armored deck with a thickness of more than 100 mm

                        So talk about it
  4. Kars
    Kars 21 September 2012 11: 00
    +6
    Yes, all this was read about twenty times, but the topic was not disclosed - about the destruction of the main artillery of the LC 500 kg bomb. Where, for example, Tirpitz had 180 mm.

    For 2 years and 10 months of stay
    ships in Norway the British fired
    against him 1 5 air raids,
    having made 737 sorties and losing
    32 aircraft - excluding flights -
    scouts, Soviet aviation,
    as well as ultra-small underwater attacks
    boats and man-torpedoes ...


    And as for the aircraft carriers - they were sometimes sent to the bottom by a single plane, or even a single bomb.
    And why are you ashamed of posting the Tirpitz Death photo. When such a release I got into trouble with the Den, it's a pity that it collapsed.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 21 September 2012 11: 49
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      Yes, all this was read about twenty times, but the topic was not disclosed

      And there will never be an unambiguous answer, there is always an amendment to "J", as the Americans call it, another question is that you can stupidly expose the ship under attack and no armor will save it.
      Threat I'm still for the reservation
    2. Santa Fe
      21 September 2012 13: 52
      +1
      Quote: Kars
      about the destruction of the main artillery of the 500 LC kg bomb

      As you can see, the destruction of the radar, rangefinding posts and switchboard is enough
      Quote: Kars
      And as for the aircraft carriers, there was a single plane sending them to the bottom,or even a single bomb.

      And this happened with battleships - "Arizona"
      Quote: Kars
      And why are you embarrassed to post a photo of the Death of Tirpitz

      but long before the use of these giants, the 53 superlinkor with a displacement of thousands of tons completely lost its combat effectiveness from a dozen conventional aerial bombs.
      1. Kars
        Kars 21 September 2012 14: 46
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        As you can see, the destruction of the radar, rangefinding posts and switchboard is enough


        I don’t see. Was it all done by one 500 kg bomb?
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        And this happened with battleships - "Arizona"

        What am I against? At least one mine or torpedo is more common.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        53 thousand tons completely lost combat readiness from a dozen conventional aerial bombs.

        who is this? and are you sure that he couldn’t fire the main caliber with the use of optical rangefinders in the towers of the Civil Code
        1. Santa Fe
          21 September 2012 15: 19
          0
          Quote: Kars
          I don’t see. Was it all done by one 500 kg bomb?

          This was done by twelve 500 pounds and a couple of 726 kg (although, all the same, 500-fn did more damage). Let me remind you that this is not about one weapon of the Civil Code, but the superstructure of the LC, completely turned into flaming ruins
          Quote: Kars
          at least one mine or torpedo is more common

          More often at sea there are destroyers and cruisers
          Quote: Kars
          and you are sure that he could not fire the main caliber with the use of optical rangefinders in the towers of the Civil Code

          Most likely he could not fire, due to the lack of electricity in the towers of the Civil Code - the cables burned out.
          1. Kars
            Kars 21 September 2012 18: 16
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Let me remind you that this is not about one gun GK, but

            No, it's just about guns and turrets of the Civil Code
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            completely turned into flaming ruins

            So what?
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            More often at sea there are destroyers and cruisers

            But more successful submarines
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            in towers GK - cables burned out

            They go on the upper deck? Maybe still .. by air .. thrown from the superstructure?
  5. Kars
    Kars 21 September 2012 12: 51
    0
    And yet, three armor plates 37 mm + 25 mm + 50 mm could not stand the hit of a conventional bomb


    High-explosive bombs were divided by caliber (weight) and wall thickness. Basic calibres: 50, 250, 500, 1000, 1800 and 2500 kg. According to the wall thickness, they differed into thin-walled SCs with a cylindrical middle part, a welded nasal coca and a screwed tail fairing with a stabilizer (the bomb was equipped through the bottom) and thick-walled SD - one-piece, tail fairing screwed after bomb equipment


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    1. Kars
      Kars 21 September 2012 13: 01
      +1
      Add a tablet

      On September 21, at the Tirkovo airdrome, where two StG2 Immelman groups were based, the long-awaited 1000-kg bombs finally arrived. The exact number of bombs received is unknown, but from an analysis of subsequent events, it can be concluded that there were no more than ten of them. Although the Ju-87B-2 and Ju-87R-2 with which the squadron was equipped had a maximum bomb load of 1000 kg, in the initial period of the war on the Eastern Front, their standard armaments were mainly high-explosive bombs SC50, SC250 and SC500. Usually, the “Pieces” carried one 250 kg bomb under the fuselage and one 50 kg bomb under each plane, or one 500 kg bomb under the fuselage.
      Therefore, it is not surprising that there was no equipment in Tirkovo designed to transport and lift 1000-kg bombs. As a result, the gunsmiths, with the help of other ground personnel, first dragged the bombs to the aircraft parking lots, and then manually lifted them and hung them under the Shtuk fuselages. Each such operation was performed by at least twelve people. Finally, by the morning of September 23, armor-piercing bombs were ready for use
      1. Santa Fe
        21 September 2012 15: 01
        0
        Andrew, I was not surprised. Experience shows that even 500 pounds pierced Tirpitz’s upper armored deck
        1. Kars
          Kars 21 September 2012 15: 31
          +1
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          even 500 pounds pierced the upper armored deck of Tirpitz

          Really? And there were a lot of them? 1? (Number 2)
          And by the way, it was calculated, we still argue that it is better to have one thick one, or several thin armored decks .-- so it pierced and exploded without breaking the main one.

          Do you know what 12 is? It's 1600 pound armor-piercing, what do you think with the GK tower?

          This is about another raid that you mention
          upper deck, main armored deck,
          but didn't explode and got stuck in the room
          main distribution
          shield N14 on the lower platform. * ONLY
          times deck armor "Tirpitz"
          turned out to be broken. If a fuse
          this bomb worked, the consequences could
          to be the most serious.
          1. Santa Fe
            21 September 2012 15: 41
            0
            Quote: Kars
            This is 1600 pound armor-piercing, what do you think with the GK tower?

            Pothole destroyed Oerlikon on the roof

            The fact that all cables and piping on the upper deck were broken and burned out, along with add-ons
            1. Kars
              Kars 21 September 2012 16: 01
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Pothole destroyed Oerlikon on the roof

              So what can we say about 500 kg? Can it destroy not just a tower, but a nasal group of the main caliber?
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              and burned out, along with add-ons

              Is that all right? And by the way did the main posts of artillery control really suffer? And they could shoot without radar, which, by the way, and Hood sank.
              1. Kibb
                Kibb 21 September 2012 16: 23
                0
                Quote: Kars
                they could shoot

                Shoot yes and aim towers with electric drive, without electricity?
                1. Kars
                  Kars 21 September 2012 17: 31
                  0
                  Quote: Kibb
                  without electricity?

                  and that the generators were destroyed? and the wiring from them on the upper deck to the towers does not pass.
                  1. Kibb
                    Kibb 21 September 2012 17: 45
                    0
                    The distributor was destroyed, naturally they don’t pass along the upper deck of the cable. I don’t know how to design it, but remember Yu. Dakota at Gaudalkanal, the battleship was put out of order there without hits, another question is that the class of the ship doesn’t matter here
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 21 September 2012 17: 48
                      0
                      Quote: Kibb
                      The distributor was destroyed

                      This is the third attack. When by the way on the upper decks there was no special destruction.
                      Quote: Kibb
                      Yu. Dakota at Gaudalkanal, there, without hits, the battleship was disabled

                      Automatics worked there.
                      Here, even with the destruction of the switchboard, the GK towers would still receive electricity.
                      1. Kibb
                        Kibb 21 September 2012 18: 40
                        0
                        I simply state the fact, without specifying anything. I understand that you will again rush about the topic of LC Sun AB, in which I will still be for AB, and all the same for booking ships.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Automatics worked there.

                        I know only the ship has become a useless pile of metal
                        Quote: Kars
                        Here, even with the destruction of the switchboard, the GK towers would still receive electricity.
                        where such confidence comes from, I suppose I don’t know the wiring diagram of Tirpitz, so I don’t say anything
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 18: 45
                        +1
                        Quote: Kibb
                        in which I will care for AB anyway

                        In a one-on-one battle when the AV has a standard air group?
                        Quote: Kibb
                        useless pile of metal

                        It happens
                        Quote: Kibb
                        I suppose I don’t know the wiring diagram of Tirpitz, therefore I do not state anything

                        ITS can be found only in Polish (I was personally presented on another forum)
                      3. Kibb
                        Kibb 21 September 2012 18: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        In a one-on-one battle when the AV has a standard air group?

                        Well, I read "Option" Bis ", there was a great moment, but there are few chances for such a fight, although as history shows, they are, and mind you there LK and LKR have a fighter cover, and what a thing !!!
                      4. Santa Fe
                        21 September 2012 21: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: Kibb
                        Well "Option" Bis "I read

                        Option Bis - the dying nonsense of a retired officer

                        Although Berezin has "Lunar Option" - an interesting fantastic book
                      5. Kibb
                        Kibb 21 September 2012 21: 29
                        0
                        It’s not bad written for me, but I don’t propose to discuss books, I’m just saying that the option of an art ship reaching the aircraft carrier firing range is possible, but building a strategy on a chance is pretty stupid
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 21: 36
                        0
                        no take Lexington - Coral Sea
                        23 Wildcat
                        36 Downtales
                        12 Divasters
                        Torpedo 36
                        1000 pounds 240
                        500 ----- 391

                        and play with Dakota, Bismarck, or so beloved in the mention of our author Yamato.
                      7. Kibb
                        Kibb 21 September 2012 21: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        and play with Dakota, Bismarck, or so beloved in mentions by our author Yamato
                        And what, do you let them go first?
                      8. Santa Fe
                        21 September 2012 21: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        and play with Dakota, Bismarck, or so beloved in the mention of our author Yamato.


                        Bismarck will walk about ten hours under a continuous hail of bombs and torpedoes, and obviously. will never go the distance of firing his guns.
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 22: 18
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        hail of bombs and torpedoes

                        Oh, yes, 12 torpedo bombers are not vulnerable? Or they don’t have a knockdown ability. So in 10-12 hours there will be a Glories repeat only with a half-empty deck. This is not on Yamato 70 torpedo bombers at a time
                      10. Kibb
                        Kibb 21 September 2012 22: 45
                        0
                        All this is cool, but who told you that the air group will be one - the enemy must specifically adapt to your strategy and tactics .... well, all right one on one, so one on one - the aircraft carrier can always leave if there is no luck, which battleship can’t do can, and then replace the downtles and divastayters say say Avengers, or especially Skyreders
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 22: 47
                        0
                        I indicated a standard air group and a stockpile of ammunition.
                        Quote: Kibb
                        an aircraft carrier can always leave with no luck

                        then it didn’t fulfill the combat mission --- and lost --- the convoy and the landing party were shot at Luzon or the Bear.
                      12. Kibb
                        Kibb 22 September 2012 09: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        then didn’t fulfill the combat mission --- and lost --- the convoy and the landing party were shot at Luzon or the Bear

                        And what, the only carrier will cover the convoy, and only the aircraft carrier, and even the convoy with the landing
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 11: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Kibb
                        the convoy will cover the only aircraft carrier

                        Well, the carrier carrier is a super-duper killer of battleships, why should he help. And of course, Yamato can be drowned by raising air groups of 5 strike aircraft carriers and two more reserves.

                        And do not forget that this is an experiment.
                      14. Kibb
                        Kibb 22 September 2012 12: 06
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        And do not forget that this is an experiment.

                        Well, do not forget - Arch still managed to stop Bismarck, with his flawed "air group" - again an amendment to J. That probably the German anti-aircraft gunners were surprised to see torpedo bombers approaching them at the speed of a Volkswagen))
                      15. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 12: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Kibb
                        stop Bismarck, with his flawed "air group

                        And so? If he didn’t catch his iron with 406 mm artillery, he would have somehow reached Brest, he didn’t stop the network, but lost steering, not speed. Damage could be fixed at sea, and he could be driven by machines.
                        With the same success, a damaged Downtales may unsuccessfully land on an aircraft carrier and disable a dozen aircraft.

                        Although, honestly, I would prefer either Tirpitz or Dakota.

                        The battleship "Bismarck" had five power plants: - two power stations in compartment VIII, one on the starboard side, the other on the left side. Each station housed four MWM.RS-38.S diesel generators. The power of the generators is 500 kW.



                        - Two power stations in compartment XIV, outboard. Both stations housed five turbo-generators with a capacity of 690 kW each and one turbo-generator with a capacity of 460 kW, to which it was possible to connect a 400 kVA converter.

                        - one power station in compartment VII on the starboard side. It rinsed one diesel generator-converter in 550 WA.

                        - two power distribution stations (MDGs) located in compartment IX on both sides.
                      16. Kibb
                        Kibb 22 September 2012 13: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        If he didn’t catch his iron with 406 mm artillery, he would have somehow reached Brest

                        Well, these are the problems of the British, who is to blame for them, that they had no normal air group
                        Quote: Kars
                        not speed

                        I lost
                        Quote: Kars
                        Damage could be fixed at sea, and it could be driven by machines

                        After all, they didn’t
                        Quote: Kars
                        With the same success, a damaged Downtales may unsuccessfully land on an aircraft carrier and disable a dozen aircraft

                        In your own words "It happens"
                        Quote: Kars
                        Although, honestly, I would prefer either Tirpitz or Dakota.

                        I just gave you an example, just as I can argue endlessly about the North Sea and Leyte
                        Let's tie))
                      17. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 13: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Kibb
                        that they had no normal air group

                        Vryatli 12 torpedoes Lex achieved at least such a result.
                        Quote: Kibb
                        I lost

                        He got up
                        Quote: Kibb
                        I just brought you

                        It happens.
                        Quote: Kibb
                        After all, they didn’t

                        Iron
                      18. PSih2097
                        PSih2097 21 September 2012 22: 19
                        0
                        Well, I read "Option" Bis ", there was a great moment, but there are few chances for such a fight, although as history shows, they are, and mind you there LK and LKR have a fighter cover, and what a thing !!!

                        I advise you to read (Alternative, but informative ...):

                        http://flibusta.net/b/256506/read

                        http://flibusta.net/b/278352/read#r83

                        http://flibusta.net/b/293946/read
                      19. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 22: 48
                        0
                        read ---- I look forward to continuing. as there is damage from the first nuclear bombing.
  6. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 21 September 2012 14: 22
    +2
    The article makes an unpleasant impression: both all planes - G.O., and all the ships mentioned above all - G.O., and use them all accordingly ...
    Along the way, only the author in a white tailcoat ...
  7. Eraser
    Eraser 21 September 2012 16: 10
    0
    Whatever it was, but PMSM battleships are the most beautiful ships ...[img = left] https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoadJAYJJNLe3HD1
    lvGDxAY3qsFUD8FGl1O2KvJsszEETQdMbN[/img][img=left]https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic
    .com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAEcslJb1ck82WflFZ_WIt7AmR66KzEsx7JHklHHD_AtE86vMJdw[/im
    g] [img = left] https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQabzXf3gHqpzvv
    Cl6677G9DcGu0Gtu96qijAFcnTVawM89cCMV[/img]
  8. Gad
    Gad 21 September 2012 19: 40
    0
    Nobody managed to create a full-fledged protection of the deck from bombs. But moderate deck booking has a positive effect. Compare the British armored-deck Illastries-class aircraft carriers and the American Essexes of their contemporaries. The latter suffered tremendous damage even from one bomb or kamikaze, examples of "Franklin" and "Bunker Hill". The British endured the blow better, which was demonstrated both in Europe and the Pacific Ocean, where they were hit by 7 kamikazes, as a result of which 41 pilots and 44 crew members died, which is an order of magnitude less losses of the Americans in similar situations. 724 people died on Franklin, 391 people died on Bunker Hill, plus the entire aircraft carrier was lost.
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 September 2012 21: 39
      +4
      Quote: GaD
      where they got 7 kamikaz
      1. Gad
        Gad 21 September 2012 22: 58
        0
        Probably it was laughing
  9. Prometey
    Prometey 21 September 2012 20: 33
    0
    That's right, but the author did not write further how the air defense system has advanced in modern times. Instead of manually controlled anti-aircraft machine guns, super-fast-firing guns with radar guidance appeared, capable of raining down several tons of metal on any air target within a minute. And air defense missiles should not be forgotten. As for the battleships that were sunk. Of course, the means of attack advanced too, so the argument is probably not over.
    By the way, about the battleships in the West, the final point is not set. It is believed that as soon as an electromagnetic gun is created, ships will be able to get new irresistible weapons, which will be impossible to defend against in the near future.
  10. Bosk
    Bosk 21 September 2012 21: 52
    0
    But if you build a standard battleship ... instead of the main caliber of the KK missile, instead of the medium caliber of the KV missile, and instead of the small pair of anti-submarine systems .... all this, accompanied by escort ships, awakens terrible power ... and keep in mind that most protivokarabelok even thought to pierce such armor ....
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 21 September 2012 22: 07
      0
      Theoretically, everything is correct, such a universal "battleship of the future" is quite possible, but its cost is likely to exceed the cost of a supervian with an air group, and much more.
      1. Kars
        Kars 21 September 2012 22: 16
        0
        I personally think that such a LC will fit in 40 tons and will cost as much as two Ticonderoges + the price of the building itself
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 21 September 2012 22: 26
          0
          It is unlikely that I saw your disputes with Oleg, and was more likely inclined to his opinion. I tried to calculate it myself, it turned out more than 60 t.t. And in your case - it’s rather a protected Orlan that turns out to be good, in principle, but this is not the ship in question
          1. Kars
            Kars 21 September 2012 22: 30
            0
            9600 missiles climb into 130 tons of ticonderoga --- and so for example the Missouri tower --- only the rotating part weighs 1700 tons ---- how many missiles can be placed in the UVP to use at least half the weight?
            1. Bosk
              Bosk 21 September 2012 23: 34
              0
              It’s easier to shield in the Clubs ........
            2. Kibb
              Kibb 22 September 2012 12: 21
              0
              Aegis ships are not percussionists, and Harpoons cannot be compared with Granites
              1. Kars
                Kars 22 September 2012 12: 36
                0
                Quote: Kibb
                and Harpoons cannot be compared with Granites

                I don’t need granites and nafig. I need Tomahawks
                1. Kibb
                  Kibb 22 September 2012 12: 42
                  0
                  Quote: Kars
                  I need Tomahawks

                  Well, hit with Yakhont, or with X55, but I don’t understand why they are needed? We’re talking about a drummer capable of withstanding AUG
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 22 September 2012 12: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Kibb
                    or with X55

                    It gets into the dimensions of the UVP Mark41 so I don’t understand such an oversized tonnage as you.
                    X-65SE - anti-ship modification X-65.9 hypothetically)

                    And it’s not about confronting the AUG, it’s easier to destroy it with submarines, but about a multipurpose strike ship.

                    Against the aircraft carrier, I somehow offered Kronstad with the Termites.
                    1. Santa Fe
                      22 September 2012 14: 59
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      Against the aircraft carrier, I somehow offered Kronstad with the Termites.

                      laughing
                      which cannot reach the North Sea
                      in terms of protection and air defense, he was generally the weakest in the world
                      And at that time the sea was not hosted by the Lexingtons, but by the Midway and Forrestolls
                      Quote: Kars
                      but about a multipurpose strike ship

                      Means about AUG
                      Quote: Kars
                      Will fit into the dimensions of UVP Mark41 so I do not understand such an overstatement of the tonnage as you

                      Obviously, it’s not the mass, but the size wink
                      And do not forget, battleships at all times was the most expensive and complex ships
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 15: 05
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        which cannot reach the North Sea
                        What is the North Sea? We did not agree on the North Sea))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        in terms of protection and air defense, he was generally the weakest in the world

                        There was “nothing that didn’t finish it” and what kind of OH he could be we do not recognize.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Means about AUG

                        No, not about the ACG, but about the normal, not very expensive, and even cheaper to operate an attack ship that can make a small country without attracting such a huge crowd as an aircraft carrier, which for miserable Iraq had to drive 6 pieces, and which without missile Tomahawks, would have lost their air group in a couple of days.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Obviously, it’s not the mass, but the size

                        And by the way, the size is also quite suitable. Diameter up to 800 mm.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        do not forget, battleships at all times was the most expensive and complex ships

                        Really? Are aircraft carriers cheaper))))))
                      2. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 15: 53
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        What is the North Sea? We did not agree on the North Sea

                        5000 miles on 15 knots chickens to laugh
                        Quote: Kars
                        and what HE could be we do not recognize.

                        A very obvious forecast can be made based on the available air defense systems (even taking into account the prospects), and the armor is really rather weak
                        Quote: Kars
                        No, not about the ACG, but about the normal, not very expensive, and even cheaper to operate a strike ship that can make a small country

                        And how will Kronstadt endure Iraq?
                        Quote: Kars
                        And by the way, the size is also quite suitable. Diameter up to 800 mm.

                        Do you know the installation dimensions?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Really? Are aircraft carriers cheaper))))))

                        In the 30-40, the Britons and Amers built them in packs, and lx somehow was not very
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 16: 00
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        5000 miles on 15 knots chickens to laugh

                        So this is an aircraft carrier carrier of capitalist aggression, and my dreamy Soviet guard of the borders of the homeland)) can I still have a range to New York with one refueling?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        available air defense systems (even taking into account the prospects), and the armor is really rather weak

                        How many anti-aircraft guns were in the middle of LK or the Kyrgyz Republic at the beginning of the war, how many became towards the end? Are there trends?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And how will Kronstadt endure Iraq?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And it’s not about confronting the AUG, it’s easier to destroy it with submarines, but about a multipurpose strike ship.

                        Against aircraft carrier I somehow suggested Kronstad with Termites

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In the 30-40, the Britons and Amers built them in packs, and lx somehow was not very

                        so that 30during the war, and not the Britons, but the Yankees (with their shipyards) - and we are not talking about the situation at that time, but about the times closer chronologically to us.
                      4. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 16: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        and my dreamy Soviet guard borders of the homeland)

                        But what about Iraq?
                        Quote: Kars
                        How many anti-aircraft guns were in the middle of LK or the Kyrgyz Republic at the beginning of the war, how many became towards the end? Are there trends?

                        poor Yamato
                        Quote: Kars
                        so then 30 in the war and not the Britons, but the Yankees (with their then shipyards)

                        Furies, Glorieses and Illustries and Hermes
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 16: 32
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But what about Iraq?

                        Well then, he is based in the port of Iraq and from there repels the aggression of a large aircraft carrier.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        poor Yamato

                        Well, what can I say 5 strike aircraft carriers + something else, this is not the Yamato poor crew, but Japan))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Furies, Glorieses and Illustries and Hermes

                        1-2-4-1)))))))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Britons and amers built their packs
                      6. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 19: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well then, he is based in the port of Iraq and from there repels the aggression of a large aircraft carrier.

                        It turns out your Kronstadst non-self-propelled barge with limited characteristics at the price of a strike aircraft carrier
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well what can I say 5 strike aircraft carriers + something else

                        What would change for Yamato if there were 2 aircraft carriers?
                        Quote: Kars
                        1-2-4-1

                        yeah, xnumx units
                        Or the Japanese Navy at 7.12.1941 - 8 of large aircraft carriers and not a single new battleship
                        And, ksati, what was the last Yamato-type lx converted to laughing
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 21: 03
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It turns out your Kronstadst non-self-propelled barge

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        5000 miles at 15 knots

                        This is not self-propelled in your opinion? Strange)))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What would change for Yamato if there were 2 aircraft carriers?

                        He would have reached Okinawa, flooded aground and become a coastal battery.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        aha
                        )))))))) yeah BUNCHES))))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And, ksati, what was the last Yamato-type lx converted to

                        Well, who in time trouble does not make mistakes, it would be better to do as the Kaisers Yankees.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Or the Japanese Navy

                        Well, the US built battleships, very large battleships - it's all about the manufacturing base.
                      8. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 23: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is not self-propelled in your opinion? Strange)))))

                        Range of Stalingrad: 5000 miles on 15 nodes.
                        The ship is completely out of date by the end of the 40's. It is a fact. Try to prove the opposite - to shout against the truth.
                        Quote: Kars
                        He would have reached Okinawa, flooded aground and become a coastal battery.

                        These are your fantasies. 58TF power was redundant at times, a couple of aircraft carriers would be enough for Yamato
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, who doesn’t make mistakes in time pressure

                        The bugs were Yamato and Musashi - the most useless ships in the Pacific Theater
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, the US built battleships, very large battleships

                        7 battleships and 150 aircraft carriers
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 23: 28
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Stalingrad Range: 5000 miles at 15 knots

                        So you admit that you were wrong calling him
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        dumb barge

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The ship was completely outdated by the end of the 40s. It is a fact

                        Well, I'm not the original performance.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The power of 58TF was excessive at times

                        Can not be.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yamato would have had a couple of aircraft carriers

                        But are these your statements logical? The relics of 58 and then a couple of aircraft carriers?
                        Although if you still do not understand, then I can’t explain the cumulative effect of numerical superiority to you. Or do you think that only arithmetic plays a role, 25, it is 4 times less than 100, but how many times 100 is more effective than 25? (For example, airplanes)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        These are your fantasies

                        Not mine, but the Imperial Navy, this is the combat mission of Yamato.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The mistakes were Yamato and Musashi

                        The Japanese made a major mistake - they made them very secret, and the psychological effect disappeared, but you probably won’t understand this either, although it is often mentioned in the literature.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        7 battleships and 150 aircraft carriers

                        Videsh, even 150 aircraft carriers were few, since battleships were added to them - VERY big battleships (of which 100 would probably have escorted)))))))
                      10. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 00: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        So you admit that you were wrong calling him
                        dumb barge

                        Not. This is dictated by the conditions of its use - shooting from the mooring wall. Sailing somewhere is pointless having a range of 5000 miles at 15 knots. (barely enough to get out of the Baltic and come back). Dumb barge)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, I'm not the original performance.

                        Project 82 "Stalingrad", founded in 1951, had too short a cruising range, weak armor and even more frail armament
                        Quote: Kars
                        But are these your statements logical? The relics of 58 and then a couple of aircraft carriers?

                        Absolutely logical. 150-200 aircraft could rise from two aircraft carriers.

                        The first attack involved only 150 vehicles, the second attack - 50, of which only half were torpedo bombers and bombers. Against superlinkor, cruiser and 6 destroyers.
                        Quote: Kars
                        The Japanese made a major mistake - they kept them secret, and the psychological effect disappeared.

                        How is Tirpitz? But amers, unlike conservative Britons, understood too well which ship was a real force in the ocean.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Videsh, even 150 aircraft carriers were few, since they were added battleships

                        150 and 7 - you can immediately see who had priority)))
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 13: 06
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        No

                        Could you say no, if a deck aircraft of that period had a combat radius of 5000 miles, was it?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Project 82 "Stalingrad", founded in 1951, had too short a cruising range, weak armor and even more frail armament

                        Looking with whom to compare, about dplnosti read above.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Absolutely logical. 150-200 aircraft could rise from two aircraft carriers.

                        98 torpedo bombers)))))) and yes of course they all would have found Yamato (in RI we know that many did not find such a not-so-small boat)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How is Tirpitz?
                        Amer? In 1941-42 they understood something? Don’t make me laugh, they would rush to build a LC with 20 inch guns.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        150 and 7 - you can immediately see who had priority)))

                        Battleships? This is understandable, although it must be recognized that they are more difficult to build than Kaisers to remake.
                      12. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 14: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        the deck aircraft of that period had a combat radius of 5000 miles, was it?

                        The aircraft carriers Essex have 15 miles at 000 knots.
                        After the upgrade, the cruising range of the Midway aircraft carriers decreased to 11 miles 000 knots. progress.
                        An aircraft carrier, unlike your armored barge, could operate anywhere in the ocean.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Looking with whom to compare

                        Iowa, Wangard, Alaska
                        Quote: Kars
                        98 torpedo bombers)))))) and yes of course they all would have found Yamato (in RI we know that many did not find such a not-so-small boat)

                        Paradoxically, about 90 torpedo bombers participated in the attacks on Yamato. Drowned in two hours of all.
                        Quote: Kars
                        in 1941-42 understood something?

                        In the summer of 1942, at the US shipyards there were 100 carriers with varying degrees of readiness
                        Quote: Kars
                        this is understandable, although it is necessary to acknowledge that it is more difficult to build them than Kaisers to remake.

                        Kaisers did not redo. I already wrote about this.
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 15: 03
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Aircraft carriers Essex - 15 miles at 000 knots

                        You were asked in RUSSIAN
                        Quote: Kars
                        the deck aircraft of that period had a combat radius of 5000 miles, was it?

                        Could he attack the coast of the USSR from a distance exceeding 5000 miles? Or did he have to enter this radius? And the fact that Midway could fight somewhere doesn’t bother me,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Iowa, Wangard, Alaska

                        Iowa and Wengard are LK, Stalingrad CRUISER.
                        And with Alaska they are roughly equivalent.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Paradoxically, about 90 torpedo bombers took part in the attacks on Yamato. Drowned in two hours all

                        Paradoxically, two aircraft carriers could not raise so many torpedo bombers))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In the summer of 1942, at the US shipyards there were 130 carriers with varying degrees of readiness
                        Really? Where did the information come from? And how many of them were not escort
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Kaisers did not redo. I already wrote about this
                        And how then did the escorters do it?
                      14. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 17: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        from a distance exceeding 5000 miles? Or did he have to enter this radius?

                        5000 is the range. The radius at the trough unworthy to bear the name "Stalingrad" is half the size)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        He could attack the coast of the USSR

                        Yes, Midway could attack the coast of the USSR, like any point in the ocean. But the trough Stalingrad could only crawl along its shores.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Iowa and Wengard are LK, Stalingrad CRUISER.

                        Stalingrad is all that the industry of the USSR was capable of
                        Quote: Kars
                        And with Alaska they are roughly equivalent.

                        Alaska has a range of 12 000 km
                        More powerful booking.
                        Run-in anti-aircraft artillery and SLA
                        Quote: Kars
                        Paradoxically, two aircraft carriers could not lift so many torpedo bombers

                        And it was not required. In the first attack involved only 150 aircraft, of which a third were torpedo bombers. Nothing prevented the Americans from repeating the attack by the same forces after a couple of hours.
                        But they just secured themselves by releasing more than necessary aircraft (EMNIP there was another group of aircraft there, but was late - the trough Yamato turned over earlier)

                        There was no problem for the two Essexes to take 150 machines into the air (even if 130-140, the effect of this will not decrease at all)
                      15. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 17: 17
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        5000 is the range. Trough radius

                        Quote: Kars
                        You were asked in RUSSIAN
                        Quote: Kars
                        the deck aircraft of that period had a combat radius of 5000 miles, was it?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yes, Midway could attack the USSR coast

                        Being behind 5000 miles? Someone is raving)))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Stalingrad is all that the industry of the USSR was capable of

                        Then what are you whining about aircraft carriers?
                        The project was assigned number 23, and the lead ship was named "Soviet Union"
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Alaska has a range of 12 000 km

                        Forget the range, and so are almost the same, our GK guns are much better, and FOR the most easily improving system on ships.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Alaska appeared 15 years earlier!

                        Unfortunately, World War II almost did not affect the territory of the United States, there were no destroyed cities, refugees, and so on.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And not required

                        You’ve already gone nuts with torpederaids. Just 150 aircraft? They couldn’t be lifted by two aircraft carriers, they would not all have flown, and they would not have such a numerical strength.
                        I see you never caught up with the cumulative effect of numerical superiority.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But they just made insurance, releasing more

                        They did not insure anything, if there were more planes available, they released more. This is the tactics of the Yankees (or rather, only they could afford it)
                        First
                        strike aircraft from aircraft carriers of the 58th
                        connection at this time
                        about 300 miles from the enemy, steel
                        take off at 10 o’clock. Participation in the attack
                        Vali 58.1 aircraft carriers: heavy
                        Hornet, Hancock, Bennington and Lungs
                        Bello Wood and San Jacinto, as well as
                        58.3 groups: heavy "Essex", "Ban-
                        Ker Hill "and lungs" Bataan "and" Cabot ".
                        The structure of the strike air group organized by
                        to destroy Japanese ships,
                        280 aircraft entered, including 132 fighter
                        Hellcat and Corsair 50 Dive
                        helldiver bombers
                        and 98 Avenger torpedo bombers. Actually
                        the Japanese connection came out 227
                        planes, since 53 of those launched
                        target not found. In addition, another 106
                        planes flew to strike,
                        but were late to take part in the battle.
                      16. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 19: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Being behind 5000 miles? Someone is raving)))

                        1. 5000 divided in half)))
                        2. What would prevent him from coming closer?
                        Quote: Kars
                        And FOR the most easily improving system on ships.

                        This is a speculative and unrealistic situation. In the 50 of the USSR, the years at 10 lagged behind ZA and SLA

                        The Yankees were so fond of Alaska that they added 6 from 2, and they wrote off one year after the war.
                        Quote: Kars
                        A total of 150 aircraft? They could not be lifted by two aircraft carriers, they would not have all flown, and they would not have such a numerical strength.

                        Unjustified doubts.
                        Quote: Kars
                        They did not insure anything, if there were more planes available, they released more. This is the tactics of the Yankees (or rather, only they could afford it)

                        Everything at 58TF had EMNIP 400 machines
                        But in the first hit there was only 150
                      17. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 19: 45
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1. 5000 divided in half)))

                        Why? If my tanker is lucky afloat, the remaining tanker will do.
                        So there are airplanes with a range of 5000 km? They will definitely not need to grow up.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We are still talking about more or less realistic things.

                        See the composition of air defense ships at the beginning and at the end, a clear trend.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Unreasonable doubts

                        How is it unreasonable?
                        Quote: Kars
                        since 53 of those who started
                        did not find the target

                        Or is that not true?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But in the first hit there was only 150
                        ))))))))) and why not 8 fighters? they first flew up))))
                        Quote: Kars
                        to destroy Japanese ships,
                        entered 280 aircraft


                        And I like that you are against Yamato already. Two super-bearers)))) you send.
                    2. Kibb
                      Kibb 22 September 2012 17: 48
                      0
                      Uh, no, I was talking about some kind of versatile warship, capable of any function, with missiles, artillery, and battleship armor. You actually (again, I repeat) leaves a protected eagle (I hope you don’t need to explain the difference between protektet and armored). Today, such a universal ship (apart from protection) is an aircraft carrier, but the operation of the AUG in "peacetime" is too expensive.
                      And to "smash a small country" you can screw universal launchers into a container ship + a dozen frigates - remember the idea of ​​an arsenal ship
                      1. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 19: 06
                        +1
                        Quote: Kibb
                        operating AUG in "peacetime" is too expensive.

                        Not AUG, but an aircraft carrier.
                        Moreover, all operating costs are covered by its capabilities.
                        Quote: Kibb
                        And for "smash a small country"

                        Thousands of bombers and tanks are needed for this.
                        Quote: Kibb
                        remember the idea of ​​an arsenal ship

                        Already discussed.
                        http://topwar.ru/13998-korabl-arsenal-protiv-avianosca.html
                      2. Kibb
                        Kibb 22 September 2012 19: 56
                        0
                        Oleg, do not try to convince me of the need for an aircraft carrier, I never doubted it
                      3. Santa Fe
                        22 September 2012 23: 08
                        0
                        No, the idea was that the arsenal ship was bullshit.
                        You can argue about the aircraft carrier for a long time))
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 23: 21
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        that arsenal ship is bullshit

                        It’s strange to say that you argued the Arsenal against the Aircraft Carrier in your own article. It turns out that this is an aircraft carrier without missile cruisers almost 0.
                        and with the example of Iraq 1991 it is proved. Until the air defense is not depressed, an aircraft carrier cannot use its cheap bombs without paying with expensive carriers.
                        And without the same berka or ticonderoga, he is, in principle, an expensive floating airfield.
                        There are no drawings - but the harpoons are visible separately and the dimensions of the UVP are --- how much more are they visible?
                      5. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 14: 40
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        It turns out it is an aircraft carrier without missile cruisers almost 0.

                        Stop. This is your idea - instead of aircraft carriers and missile cruisers, build only armadillos.
                        Quote: Kars
                        While the air defense is not depressed, an aircraft carrier cannot use its cheap bombs without paying with expensive carriers.

                        Air defense was crushed by Apaches, Stealth and conventional aircraft. Axes were mainly used for other purposes.
                        Quote: Kars
                        but the harpoons are visible separately and the UVP dimensions --- how much more are they visible?

                        This is Burke of the first series. There are harpoons but there is no helicopter hangar
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 15: 13
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Stop. This is your idea - instead of aircraft carriers and missile cruisers, build only armadillos.

                        Is it? And when I was offering armadillos? I was offering armored missile and artillery cruisers, not Ticonderoga’s idiots.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        aircraft carriers

                        but your article, where you didn’t write what significance Tomagovkov’s strikes had, but after all, quite deliberately, only emphasized the mass of their warheads
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Air defense was crushed by Apaches, Stealth and conventional aircraft. Axes were mainly used for other purposes.

                        Write an article, especially how ordinary planes crushed air defense, and on what objects they attacked F-117 --- Do not forget that F-117 and NORMAL planes did NOT take off from an Aircraft Carrier. Just get better prepared than for this. Well, it really didn’t work out.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        There are harpoons, but there is no helicopter hangar

                        Oh yes of course the 2 package of the 4 harpoon took the place of a whole helicopter hangar, there is a link to the identity of the hangar and harpoons.
                      7. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 16: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        I was offering armored missile and artillery cruisers

                        You constantly hint that it makes no sense to build ships less than 40 thousand tons. And always with heavy armor.
                        Quote: Kars
                        you’re very unsuccessful with the bomb on the battleship.

                        In my opinion everything that had to be said was said.))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Oh yes of course the 2 package of the 4 harpoon took the place of a whole helicopter hangar, there is a link to the identity of the hangar and harpoons.

                        The fact remains, but the destroyers of the 2 series have no Harpoons.
                      8. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 17: 21
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You constantly hint that it makes no sense to build ships of less than 40 thousand tons. And always with heavy armor

                        And it’s not necessary, especially considering that the mature ..cruisers ..10 000 tons.
                        And not heavy armor, but a medium, a maximum of 200 mm, differentiated, but nowhere less than 50 mm.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In my opinion everything that had to be said was said.))

                        you wanted to say that with every possible advantage in numbers, aviation with great difficulty and HUGE bombs could sink a battleship? So everyone knew that. If you wrote a torpedo on a battleship, it would be more fun. But for what you wrote this article --- confirm the destruction of the Civil Code ONE 500 kg bomb was not received.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The fact remains, but there are no Harpoons 2A destroyers

                        Really? Give me the link. And maybe they realized that Harpoon is useless.
                      9. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 19: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        And it’s not necessary, especially considering that the mature ..cruisers ..10 000 tons.

                        So these drown from any bomb
                        Quote: Kars
                        You wanted to say that with all-round advantage in numbers, aviation with great difficulty and HUGE bombs can sink a battleship?

                        No, I said that a dozen of the smallest bombs can do serious harm to a superlinker, and two dozen will turn it into a ruin altogether. And there’s no need to drown it (especially Tollboy was also redundant - half of Tirpitz would have been enough)
                        Quote: Kars
                        Really? Give me the link.

                        Photographic materials sea.
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 21: 56
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        So these drown from any bomb

                        Well, what am I talking about? And besides, they stand on the 1.5 lard of Baku.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        it can cause serious damage to the superlinker, and two dozen can turn it into a ruin

                        not to ruin, but to damage the upper unbranded superstructures, and at the same time fighting capacity will remain. What you proved with this article is that Wengard didn’t threaten anything during the Falkland War, and how WENGARD and his 381 mm guns WRITTEN would have ended the conflict in a few days.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Tirpitz would have been enough for half

                        Quote: Kars
                        For 2 years and 10 months of stay
                        ships in Norway the British fired
                        against him 1 5 air raids,
                        having made 737 sorties and losing
                        32 aircraft - excluding flights -
                        scouts, Soviet aviation,
                        as well as ultra-small underwater attacks
                        boats and man torpedoes

                        It’s somehow unlikely, but his artillery didn’t do anything by the way. (Civil Code)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Photographic materials sea.

                        And what I see is a place where before there were two 141x containers, in their place there is no helicopter hangar.
                      11. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 23: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, what am I talking about? And besides, they stand on the 1.5 lard of Baku.

                        So at least book them - though not, they will drown vseravno if the missile fails to hit. Deutschland is no better than Stark. Moreover. in any war, losses are always inevitable.
                        You only know what the difference is - battleships too often perished with the entire crew of 1000 people. and how many sailors died in Sheffield from 274 people. crew?
                        Quote: Kars
                        and combat readiness remains

                        Without air defense. radars, communications, with broken rangefinders, without fuel (with broken boules and tanks) and with damaged mechanisms inside the armored corps
                        Quote: Kars
                        For 2 years and 10 months of stay

                        So how many times they damaged him!
                        Operation, protection and permanent overhauls of this trough took many times more money than 32 downed aircraft
                        Quote: Kars
                        in their place there is no helicopter hangar

                        2 hangar and post airboss
                      12. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 00: 21
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        they will drown if the rocket fails. Deutschland is no better than Stark

                        Stark could not stand even one tenth of what Spee received at La Plata.
                        And to lose a ship worth billions of dollars due to a penny of rockets is stupid.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You only know what the difference is - battleships too often died with the entire crew of 1000 people. and how many sailors on Sheffield out of 274 people. crew

                        Well, Luttsov, for example, in Yutdanda received so much that would be enough for 20 Sheffield, and drowned nothing on a direct keel, with the evacuated team. But Luttsov would not even have noticed Exozeta.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Without air defense. radars, communications, with broken rangefinders, without fuel (with broken boules and tanks) and with damaged mechanisms inside the armored corps

                        And you thought you were in a fairy tale? If he didn’t have armor there, he would have sunk twenty times at all. And at the same time, the Tirpitz did not lose its combat effectiveness, the Civil Code and the SK could fire. Ticonderoga couldn’t.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        than 32 downed planes

                        Are you pretending? Who the hell do you need these airplanes for? The floor of the metropolitan fleet was hanging around at the northern bases, constant reconnaissance, expectations, an Ю кон convoy thrown out because of one threat. And this is one ship that you don’t put in anything.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2 hangar and post airboss

                        Will come again
                      13. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 10: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Stark could not stand even one tenth of what Spee received at La Plata.

                        It costs less than 1 / 10 Spee
                        Quote: Kars
                        And to lose a ship worth billions of dollars due to a penny of rockets is stupid.

                        If you hang 50 mm armor on Burke, the survivability will not significantly deteriorate
                        Quote: Kars
                        If he hadn’t put armor there he would have sunk twenty times

                        It cost so much that the great Reich somehow mastered the 2 ship.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And at the same time, the Tirpitz did not lose its combat effectiveness, the Civil Code and the SK could fire

                        Only he could not go to sea, but otherwise everything is ok)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Half of the metropolitan fleet was shelled at northern bases

                        Still there was the largest Kriegsmarine group
                        Quote: Kars
                        constant intelligence, expectations

                        permanent overhaul))) Security
                        Quote: Kars
                        ryu convoy abandoned due to one threat

                        Beautiful victory Tirpitz - played on fear of the British. Although ... the convoy was still destroyed by planes and submarines.
                        losses of convoys were always high and 17 is no exception
                        Quote: Kars
                        Will come again

                        Then the phalanx will have to shoot through the harpoons - they are now on the same level. And not the fact that the new deck will withstand 8 tons of PU
                      14. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 10: 49
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It costs less than 1 / 10 Spee

                        Is Stark really worth 400 pounds? (Spee 000 mil pounds, Ang.cruiser Kent 4 million pounds - at comparable prices)))))))))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        If you hang 50 mm armor on Burke, the survivability will not significantly deteriorate

                        and there’s no thought to hang something on such a lahanka. It's sorry nonsense - I’m saying a special-built ship with armor integrated into the set, not mounted. Queen Elizabeth has 2 inches thick structural steel in the citadel’s wound (and the ship’s armor)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It cost so much that the great Reich somehow mastered the 2 ship.

                        Learn the mate part, it’s not about money,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Only he could not go to sea, but otherwise everything is ok)))

                        As we see him, and did not have to go out into it.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        largest group Kriegsmarine

                        this phrase alone causes homeric laughter --- you will not list what those who would read it would laugh. This is not to mention that there were not so many places of basing kriegsmarine.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        permanent overhaul))) Security

                        No aircraft carriers are not reminded or guarded, right?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Although...

                        it does not matter, it is important that the escort has evaporated))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Then the phalanx will have to shoot through harpoons

                        They are not there. Does the Phalanx come out better than harpoons?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And not the fact that the new deck will withstand 8 tons of PU

                        Did they make it out of cardboard? ETOZ what pressure on sq.cm MK141 gives) isn’t it funny?
                      15. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 11: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        (Spee 4 mil pound, English cruiser Kent 2 million pounds

                        How much is today
                        Quote: Kars
                        Learn the mate part, it’s not about money,

                        Of course. Instead of the time-consuming and useless Tirpitz, they preferred 1000 U-bots
                        Quote: Kars
                        As we see him, and did not have to go out into it.

                        Not true. The convoy crumbled after Tirpitz went to sea)))
                        But soon Tirpitz could not even crawl out of the base, what kind of war was he
                        Quote: Kars
                        this one phrase causes homeric laughter

                        EMNIP all battleships and heavy cruisers
                        + Most submarines operated in the North Atlantic
                        Quote: Kars
                        No aircraft carriers are not remoted or guarded

                        Chickpeas so they not only beat Tirpitz. And repairs of the Furies cannot be compared with the overhaul of the Tirpitz
                        Quote: Kars
                        They are not there. Does the Phalanx come out better than harpoons?

                        On Burke had to sacrifice Harpoons
                        Quote: Kars
                        Did they make it out of cardboard?

                        I recently read that the hangar is plastic
                        Quote: Kars
                        ETOGES what pressure on sq.cm MK141 gives) isn’t it funny?

                        Plus dynamic loads at startup
                      16. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 16: 54
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How much is today

                        So you answer, you said that Spee stand 10 times more expensive than Stark
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Instead of the time-consuming and useless Tirpitz, 1000 U-bots were preferred

                        Really? Why not a dozen Counts of Cepelins, all the same teach the materiel.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Not true

                        True, true --- veto convoys and after PKYu 17 were accompanied by battleships and aircraft carriers, not so narrow a thought.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        EMNIP all battleships and heavy cruisers

                        And where else should they be? In Berlin? And the whole group of 1 Lk and 3 Tkr is less than in the guarding of the described convoy there were warships (even counting destroyers)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Furyes repairs cannot be compared with overhaul of Tirpitz

                        Come on, don’t worry, although Igloo and Ark Royal did not need a major overhaul.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        On Burke had to sacrifice Harpoons

                        Give a quote that this happened because of the Phalanx.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I recently read that the hangar is plastic

                        Deck for UVP (feed --- UVP deck for UVP - nose) made of plastic?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Plus dynamic loads at startup
                        Oh yes they are just huge))))))))
                      17. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 18: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        So you answer, you said that Spee stand 10 times more expensive than Stark

                        look for Spee yourself, I have a different number:
                        Iowa modernization flew into 1,5 billiards
                        Stark's overhaul cost 142 million - 10 times less!
                        Quote: Kars
                        why not a dozen Counts of Cepelins

                        It would be an interesting course of events
                        The Germans were clearly mistaken with submarines - 780 worries remained at the bottom
                        Quote: Kars
                        Come on, don’t worry, although Igloo and Ark Royal did not need a major overhaul.

                        Linkorov died no less
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote what happened because of the phalanx

                        This was due to a helicopter hangar.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Deck for UVP (feed --- UVP deck for UVP - nose) made of plastic?

                        I have no scheme. But the hangars are made of platik, it is possible that the entire back of the forecastle around the MK41

                        The Yankees loved Alaska so much that they completed 2 from 6 and wrote off the latest ships in a year.
                      18. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 19: 05
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        about Spee seek yourself

                        I found 4 million pounds on Spee, so it's up to you to tell the price of Stark.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Iowa modernization flew into 1,5 billiards
                        Stark's overhaul cost 142 million - 10 times less!

                        You start to fall in my eyes, compare the ship’s modernization of 50 tons, with the repair of some midget. These numbers do not mean anything. Look for evidence of your statement about tenfold cheapness.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It would be an interesting course of events

                        Well, why, but not interesting. Expensive battleships are understandable and useless, but why didn’t the aircraft carriers build? Why couldn’t they finish one?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This was due to a helicopter hangar.

                        this is not a quote. And the hangar is not even close to the Harpoon's location.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yankees loved Alaska so much that they completed 2

                        Well then, a lot of things were written off, and the US fleet was simply huge, how many aircraft carriers were written off at that time))))))))))))))
                      19. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 19: 23
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        about Spee seek yourself

                        260 dollars of modern dollars.
                      20. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 11: 26
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        permanent overhaul))) Security

                        To make a trick and a bit to clarify the situation with the awareness of your importance LC.
                        Based on PCU 17
                        convoy forces
                        consisted of two British cruisers “London” and “Norfolk”, two American cruisers “Tuscaloosa” and “Wichita” and three destroyers (two of them are American).

                        It included the battleships “Duke of York” and “Washington”, the aircraft carrier “Victories”, the cruiser “Cumberland” and “Nigeria”, as well as twelve destroyers

                        what do you think their hour of sailing is worth something? Wear and tear of cars while they cover the convoy? So the expenses of the Allies drop dead above the contents of the Tirpitz and the three of heavy cruisers of the Germans.
                        PS I hope you do not say that the battleships were involved in the protection of convoys to protect against submarines?
            3. Santa Fe
              22 September 2012 15: 08
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              9600 rockets get into the 130 tonne of ticonderogen

              In reality, more than 10 thousand tons and 128 UVP, but figs with it - accuracy in such a dispute is useless

              Tiki has a weak point - the aluminum case. Burke, similar in displacement, was made of steel, but the number of aircrafts decreased to 96, fodder artillery disappeared on the destroyer, and the number of target radars was reduced to 3's.
              1. Kars
                Kars 22 September 2012 15: 44
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                10 thousand tons and 128 UVP

                and Harpoons separately? and really accuracy is nothing.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                there is a weak point - the aluminum case

                Well, what am I suggesting? Normal armored corus, with modern metolurgy, to roll 100 mm cemented armor is easier than it was done in the 40s. Not much more expensive than luminium per ton.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Burke similar in displacement
                Well, where I draw reference data - Tika 9600, Burke 2A 8370 - so I do not think that the number of cells has changed due to the material of the set and skin.
                1. Santa Fe
                  22 September 2012 16: 14
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  and Harpoons separately?

                  It is truth too. Harpoons no longer found a place on the Berks
                  Quote: Kars
                  normal armored corus, with modern metolurgy to roll away 100 mm cemented armor, is easier than it was done in 40's. Not much more expensive than luminium per ton.

                  You need 30 thousand tons, and not about 8 as for Tiki (I do not remember the load article, but something like this)
                  Quote: Kars
                  Well, where I draw reference data - Tika 9600, Burke 2A 8370 - so I do not think that the number of cells has changed due to the material of the set and skin.

                  Tiki had two versions, and Burke generally has countless modifications
                  And you have design data most likely
                  Quote: Kars
                  so I don’t think that the number of UVP cells has changed due to the material of the set and skin.

                  From what? The case has unrecognizably changed.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 22 September 2012 16: 27
                    0
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    It is truth too. Harpoons no longer found a place on the Berks

                    meant Gorpuny separately from UVP
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    You need 30 thousand tons, and not about 8 as for Tiki (I do not remember the load article, but something like this)

                    Well, I’m kind of a small ship and I don’t offer --- but in 40 it’s included for 600 missiles and two normal art towers + air defense.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Tiki had two versions, and Burke generally has countless modifications
                    And you have design data most likely

                    Bem concepts
                    http://ship.bsu.by/ship/100010
                    http://ship.bsu.by/ship/102965
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    From what? The case has unrecognizably changed.

                    You are confusing something, the case has changed because it was changed, and not because of the replacement of aluminum with steel.

                    Old dreadnought (no discount on progress in paragas stupins, generators, etc.)
                    The stability calculation was based on the following design scales:

                    Ship's hull ........................ 9034 t.

                    Armor ......................................... 8750t.

                    Armament ................................ 4576 t.

                    Mechanisms ................................ 3950t.

                    Fuel ..................................... 650 tons

                    Equipment .............................. 670 t.

                    Admiralty Reserve .............. 100 t.

                    Total: 27700 tons

                    1. Santa Fe
                      22 September 2012 19: 26
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      meant Gorpuny separately from UVP

                      I’m talking about them. There was no place for the Harpoons.
                      Quote: Kars
                      Well, I’m kind of a small ship and I don’t offer --- but in 40 it’s included for 600 missiles and two normal art towers + air defense.

                      Not enough deck area and space.
                      Quote: Kars
                      http://ship.bsu.by/ship/100010

                      This is all nonsense, as if no one knows. V / u is significantly different even for each unit of the series. Over the past 30 years, Tiku has been constantly loaded with new equipment - their displacement has long exceeded 10 thousand
                      Quote: Kars
                      You are confusing something, the case has changed because it was changed, and not because of the replacement of aluminum with steel.

                      Replacing lumin with steel, with the same w / and uniquely reduced the internal volume of the ship’s premises
                      Quote: Kars
                      Old dreadnought (no discount on progress in paragas stupins, generators, etc.)

                      Those. 40 thousand tons of full v / v with modern technologies
                      The hull and armor weigh 18 thousand tons !! (at the ticonderoga case 6-7 thousand tons)
                      + the battleship will need at times a powerful GEM
                      + 600 UVP (for tiki - 128 UVP)
                      + 2 1000-ton towers 305 mm (for tics - 2 guns weighing 22 t with an aluminum casing)
                      + Another mythical air defense
                      As a result, you affirm. what it will cost xnumx times more expensive tiki laughing laughing
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 22 September 2012 20: 59
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I’m talking about them. There was no place for the Harpoons

                        No, you're not talking about that.
                        Armament
                        Guns: 2 Mk45
                        Torpedo tubes: 2
                        PAC Anti-ship systems: 8 Harpoon
                        Helicopters: 1
                        Anti-aircraft installations: 2 Volcano MK.15
                        UVP Installation of vertical start-up (cells): 122 MK41

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Not enough deck area and space.

                        Where does such confidence come from? Doing UVP on Ticonderoga?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This is all nonsense, as if no one knows

                        If no one means you don’t know. And my information is better than yours, although you can also give a SPECIFIC link.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Replacing lumin with steel, with the same w / and uniquely reduced the internal volume of the ship’s premises

                        Prove, quote from the monograph, etc. What was the thickness of aluminum, what became steel. Most likely you are mistaken,))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The hull and armor weigh 18 thousand tons !! (at the ticonderoga case 6-7 thousand tons)
                        + the battleship will need at times a powerful GEM
                        + 600 UVP (for tiki - 128 UVP)
                        + 2 1000-ton towers 305 mm (for tics - 2 guns weighing 22 t with an aluminum casing)
                        + Another mythical air defense

                        Sorry, but you're just driving.
                        I gave you the Dreadnought layout Queen Elizabeth
                        in 27 thousand tons, with 4 FOUR TOWERS 381 mm guns, the weight of the weapon I REPEAT

                        Quote: Kars
                        Armament ................................ 4576 t

                        How much does the entire Ticonderoga weigh? So it’s very likely that 40 thousand tons will not be needed.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As a result, you affirm. what it will cost xnumx times more expensive tiki

                        Yes, as you yourself proved on the example of Berkov, the hulls are not very expensive, and a double set of electronic filling costs something.
                      2. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 00: 04
                        0
                        Burke and Tika - in / and the same, Burke is shorter on 20 m and wider. Compared to Tika, the destroyer lost:
                        - 1 / 3 UVP !!!
                        - Of the remaining 96 settings, only 56 in the shock version, the rest in the tactical. On Teak 122 UVP in shock + 6 with crane.
                        - 127 mm guns
                        - RCC Harpoon
                        - 3 instead of 4's target illumination radars
                        Question: what is the reason for the sharp weakening of the destroyer's weapons?
                        One of the likely answers: an attempt to increase the ship's security (steel instead of luminium, an armored bulkhead 1 inch thick in the superstructure, steel technology, etc.)
                        ___________________ By the way, Tika was not distinguished by a successful layout - what only AFARs are in the back of the add-on, Burke all of them are grouped, which saved a lot of mass
                        Quote: Kars
                        Where does such confidence come from? Doing UVP on Ticonderoga?

                        From the point of view of the banal geometry of 64, UVP occupy 100 sq. m
                        Quote: Kars
                        And my information is better than yours, although you can also give a SPECIFIC link

                        Your link is not proof, there are half the text of children's errors.
                        In / and Tiki of the order of 10 thousand tons or slightly more.
                        Quote: Kars
                        in 27 thousand tons, with 4 FOUR TOWERS 381 mm guns, the weight of the weapon I REPEAT

                        EMNIP Queen's total displacement was thousand on 5 more recourse
                        It turns out even worse - the hull and armor of 27 thousand ships weigh 18 thousand tons
                        This is 3 times more metal. what is spent on Tiku. Who will pay?
                        Quote: Kars
                        How much does the entire Ticonderoga weapon weigh?

                        Tika is worth 1,5 lard bucks. 128 UVP and 2 five-inch. it’s scary to imagine how much your battleship will cost 3-4 times more.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 13: 29
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Burke and Tika - w / u equally

                        One cruiser is another destroyer and there is a difference in displacement.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        One likely answer: attempt to increase ship security

                        Where does it say besides what you write here? Quote, etc. I personally see that Burke is LESS
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Your link

                        I do not see your link)))))))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        From the point of view of the banal geometry of 64, UVP occupy 100 sq. m

                        You want to say that the cell occupies 1.5 square meters? Can you give me the source? I personally have Containers (length 6.7m, -size of the inset 0.635x0.635m)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This is 3 times more metal. what is spent on Tiku. Who will pay?

                        Do you think metal will be more expensive than the second set of radar Ajis, Gas and other electronic crap?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Tika costs 1,5 Lard

                        In general, I asked about the WEIGHT of all Tiki weapons, not the price, of course you can say how much the UVP costs

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Queen was 5 thousand more

                        Total displacement - 331000 tons (with full armament, water supply, 3400 tons of fuel on board)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        From the point of view of the banal geometry of 64, UVP occupy 100 sq. m

                        On Queen Elizabeth, the stern 381 mm towers occupy about 1000 km.sq.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        3-4 times more displacement

                        The larger the ship, the cheaper per ton of displacement.
                      4. Santa Fe
                        23 September 2012 15: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        I personally see that Burke is LESS

                        Photo.
                        Quote: Kars
                        I do not see your link))

                        http://www.nvr.navy.mil/nvrships/details/DDG99.htm
                        It is characteristic that all destroyers of the 2A series have 9515 of long tons, of course this does not happen - everyone’s displacement is different from the design one, and always upwards.
                        Quote: Kars
                        I personally have Containers (length 6.7m, -set size 0.635x0.635m)

                        A container is not a cell.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Do you think metal will be more expensive than the second set of Aigiso radar

                        Burke Price: 1 / 3 building, 1 / 3 Aegis and weapons, 1 / 3 GEM and interiors
                        I think it will be more expensive, given 3 times the amount of metal and the assembly of a huge body of armored plates.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Total Displacement - 331000 t

                        You will have even more
                        Quote: Kars
                        On Queen Elizabeth, the stern 381 mm towers occupy about 1000 km.sq.

                        With the radius of the sweeping of the trunks?
                        By the way, we did not find a place for air defense and a helipad.
                        Quote: Kars
                        The larger the ship, the cheaper per ton of displacement

                        Also not a fact. A battleship with the same military / aircraft carrier costs more
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 23 September 2012 17: 34
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Photo.

                        Really less, the photo confirmed, can I still upset?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        http://www.nvr.navy.mil/nvrships/details/DDG99.htm

                        Where is there about the fact that due to a change in materials (lumin on steel) the amount of weapons has decreased?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        A container is not a cell.

                        Really? Is cell 1.25 to 1.25 really? Do you have real numbers?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Burke Price: 1 / 3 building, 1 / 3 Aegis and weapons, 1 / 3 GEM and interiors

                        Quote: Kars
                        will cost as two Ticonderoges + price of the case itself

                        something does not suit you?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You will have even more

                        Are you a joker? I’m showing on stupid examples that removing 2 GK towers on an old dreadnought tollo can be used to set UVP by 600-800 cells, and the mass of the entire ship will decrease by about 3 thousand tons - towers, turret armored barbets, armored charging cellars.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        By the way, we did not find a place for air defense and a helipad

                        Quote: Kars
                        Armament ................................ 4576 t

                        Once again I ask the question how much Ticonderoga’s weapon weighs.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        A battleship with the same military / aircraft carrier costs more

                        Give the numbers, and you take into account the air group?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        With the radius of the sweeping of the trunks?
                      6. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 00: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Where is there about the fact that due to a change in materials (lumin on steel) the amount of weapons has decreased?

                        Did you request a link? DDG-99 Farragut, 48 Burke class ship, sub-series IIA
                        Indicated its full w / o - 9515 long tons. What other questions?
                        What do you think is the reason for the sharp weakening of the destroyer compared to the cruiser?
                        P.S. Look at what Burke’s body is hefty))) Pitch and drisch)))

                        Quote: Kars
                        only having removed the 2 towers of the GK you can put the UVP on 600-800 cells

                        800 launchers, you say? wink
                        64 UVP occupy somewhere 70 square. meters., i.e. 800 will require somewhere 750 sq. m

                        The mass of each container with a tomahawk - 2730 kg
                        + each 8-mi charging module empty weighs 14,5 tons
                        The result is 3630 tons.
                        But modules will have to be booked, right?)))
                        750 sq. m. x 100 mm steel plate = 585 tons!
                        As a result, at the stern of Queen, there will be 4215 tons of UVP only ....

                        And where do we put the helicopter hangar, air defense, 2 mm towers 305, control systems and radars?
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 01: 02
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Indicated its full w / o - 9515 long tons. What other questions?

                        What about a complete Ticonderoga?
                        But the main question is
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Replacing lumin with steel, with the same w / and uniquely reduced the internal volume of the ship’s premises

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        64 UVP occupy about 70 square meters. meters

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        From the point of view of the banal geometry of 64, UVP occupy 100 sq. m

                        Now fine
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As a result, 3630 tons


                        Quote: Kars
                        Armament ................................ 4576 t

                        The mass of armor by the way goes separately
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But modules will have to be booked, right?)))

                        Generally they are ALREADY armored, I didn’t remove the side armor. And those 585 tons are trifles.
                        Weights: (t) Equipment in general
                        750

                        weaponry
                        4550

                        Engines
                        3950

                        Fuel supply
                        650

                        Armor, protective plates
                        8600


                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As a result, at the stern of Queen, there will be 4215 tons of UVP only

                        Well, it’s easier to book a rectangular structure, there’s no need for cellars under it. There are no tower barbets with very thick armor. So there will be about 1000 tons of weight saving, and by the way, not all 800 are Tamogavkas, but will they be easier for air defense and anti-ship missiles?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2 towers 305 mm

                        In the nose instead of 381 mm --- weight savings somewhere around 2000 tons.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Defense
                        The average caliber is 16 6 inches, I don’t need them --- we will exchange for Broadsword and Duets.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        control systems and radars?

                        There is still plenty of space. And given the lower weight of the power plant, the crew is much smaller. Reduce the thickness of the main belt from 330 mm to 200 mm, etc.
                        Well, without much effort, an 800 EIGHT HIGH charging UVP and even an armored one fit into the old dreadnought.
                      8. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 10: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        What about a complete Ticonderoga?

                        Vella Gulf CG-72 9600 long tons
                        http://www.nvr.navy.mil/nvrships/details/CG72.htm
                        Quote: Kars
                        Replacing lumin with steel, with the same w / and uniquely reduced the internal volume of the ship’s premises

                        We are faced with a paradox - weapons significantly weakened. W / u equally. By the way, even the range has decreased (4500 miles against 6000 Ticonderoges!) Your explanation?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Generally they are ALREADY armored

                        1 inch lumina
                        Quote: Kars
                        In the nose instead of 381 mm --- weight savings somewhere around 2000 tons.

                        Battleship will rise on the ass)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Much smaller crew

                        Nifiga. Burke has 380 people + many times better habitability
                        Quote: Kars
                        and for air defense and anti-ship missiles? they will be easier.

                        Standard-2 1380 kg container
                        RCC? they are heavy
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, a rectangular design is easier to book

                        Yes, more vertical booking will be.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Fits 800 EIGHT HOOT Charging UVP

                        How to charge it all. to store and service?
                        And secondly, it may not fit ... the required length for the 7,7 meter PU - you can’t put it close to the board.
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 11: 04
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Your explanation

                        The load is overloaded on the ticonderogen, so that its body is cracked.
                        And why do you need my explanation? Find an explanation for this from a specialist or specialist, in a monograph which is not ---
                        After the entry into service of the cruiser URO Guided Missile Weapon "Ticonderoga", a number of articles were published in the foreign press that critically assess the series of new ships. First of all, there was an increase in comparison with the design displacement (from 8900 to 9600 tons), which is approaching the limit (10200 tons) for this hull. This is due to the fact that the weight of the vertical launch unit is 225 tons more than that of the Mk26 launchers. It is also indicated that the weight of the radar AN / SPS-49 radio locating station, which is a backup in case of failure of the AN / SPY-1A station, is 17 tons (at the same time, foreign experts note, it cannot even partially replace the radar Radio locating station AN / SPY-1A, since it does not determine the flight altitude of an aerial target).
                        and so on. As we see my explanation has at least some kind of sources, yours are not yet.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1 inch lumina

                        330 mm waterline, 152 mm top belt.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Battleship will rise on the ass)))

                        these are shipbuilding difficulties that can be solved.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Nifiga. Burke has 380 people + many times better habitability

                        Fig, fig --- the native crew of Quinn is 1200 people, and in the rocket version there will be about 500.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Standard-2 1380 kg container

                        Already not 2700 kg--
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yes, still vertical booking will be

                        IT is, you start to forget that this is a dreadnought?)))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How to charge it all. to store and service?

                        It’s the same as 122 on Tikonderoge. It is charged in the port, stored in containers, serviced regularly))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        under PU 7,7 meter

                        9,35 m (with standard displacement)
                        10,35 m (with full displacement)
                        and this is only draft --- so that having removed the tower, it will be possible to stern and lower the freeboard height.
                      10. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 11: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        The load is overloaded on the ticonderogen, so that its body is cracked.

                        Yeah. Those. all your previous discussions about placing 130 UVP in 9600 tons are ashes. The 100 UVP and the 1 light tool in 10 thousand tons turned out to be optimal. Q.E.D.
                        Quote: Kars
                        After the commissioning of the URO cruiser Guided missile weapon "Ticonderoga"

                        Do not quote anything else from there .. There are a lot of children's mistakes in the text
                        Quote: Kars
                        Fig, fig --- the native crew of Quinn is 1200 people, and in the rocket version there will be about 500.

                        Are you laughing? Burke has no towers and 10 times less UVP - 380 crew
                        Quote: Kars
                        Same as 122 on Ticonderoga.

                        100 is not 800. Cumulative effect)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        under PU 7,7 meter

                        I meant the collapse of the sides. You can’t put 7,7 meter UVP at the very side - the lower part will come out)))
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 16: 44
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yeah. Those. all your previous discussions about the placement of 130 UVP in 9600 tons are ashes

                        Mine? Not yours
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In reality, more than 10 thousand tons and 128 UVP

                        I just gave an example of Ticonderoga and that’s all, I’m not going to ARTificially limit the displacement of the vessel as the Yankees.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The optimal was 100 UVP and 1 light gun of 10 thousand tons. Q.E.D.

                        You didn’t prove anything. Do not blame me. I gave you several times the layout of the mass of weapons and armor. Repeat?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Weights: (t) Equipment in general
                        750

                        weaponry
                        4550

                        Engines
                        3950

                        Fuel supply
                        650

                        Armor, protective plates
                        8600

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Are you laughing? Burke has no towers and 10 times less UVP - a crew of 380 people

                        since there’s just 120 people for the GK towers. And so, Sorry, is there some kind of crew coefficient per unit of air defense?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        100 is not 800. Cumulative effect)))

                        Explain what is the essence of this situation? They will not be equipped in the port? Due to the fact that 800 of them they will require bulk containers in the sea? The shelf life will be shortened? Have a thought.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        the lower part will come out)))

                        mat part --- Ticonderoga 16 meters wide, Queen 27 meters.

                        And by the way, do you know that Ticonderoga and Queen have the same machine power? Who do you think they occupy more space?
                      12. Santa Fe
                        24 September 2012 18: 32
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        since just 120 man for the towers of GK

                        Quote: Kars
                        Ticonderoga width 16 meters, Quinn 27 meters.

                        Pictured is 64 UVP. You will be three times wider and four times longer !! + another half)))
                        Too much UVP - it’s too hard to check and control them. And in the event of a fire, your armadillo has a lid - it will not be available to the emergency container.

                        about the crew - 120 people reserve, right?
                        - 64 people required to service 10 UVP Clearly, 800 UVP is required at times more people
                        - two towers GK
                        - Burke 2 Phalanx, you have 3-4 times as many Daggers and Broadswords. (calculation of Dagger -6 people)
                        - increase staff warhead-5
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 18: 48
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You will be three times wider and four times longer !!

                        And what? I have a bigger ship
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Too much UVP - too hard to check and control

                        Why?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And in case of fire, your armadillo cap

                        No, of course, Ticonderoge is not a cover. UVP is modular, they will not stand in a row, but at intervals, according to the instructions.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        To service 64 UVP 10 people are required

                        Exactly? It’s 10 by 64? Is it regulated somewhere? I wonder --- they just can’t serve 128?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        increase in staff of warhead-5

                        What is this?
                        But I hope you at least admit that I don’t need all 1200 dreadnoughts? Quality workers? A servant of 2 towers of 100 people removed, in automated shell shells people are smaller, machine teams are smaller. Calculations are 6 inches?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        (calculation of Cortica -6 people)

                        Did you share the link? That it is as many as there are in an automated 6 inch.
                      14. Kars
                        Kars 24 September 2012 19: 14
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        (calculation of Cortica -6 people)

                        Can you tell me where they are?
  11. SenyaYa
    SenyaYa 22 September 2012 01: 36
    0
    Afffftar of course zhzhot)) but what about such a secret information ...

    On the evening of May 29, 1937, the Deutschland, while in the port of Ibiza in the Balearic Islands, was attacked by two Republican planes, which managed to hit it with two bombs. The first of them hit the shield of the 150-mm stern gun, killing and wounding several people from his calculation. Bomb fragments pierced the fuel tanks of the ship's plane, gasoline flared up, causing an explosion of ammunition.

    The consequences of the second hit turned out to be more serious: the bomb pierced the upper deck on the starboard side and exploded on the living deck located below, where there were many sailors who were not on duty. The fire that began was quickly eliminated, the ship's combat effectiveness did not noticeably decrease, but 31 people died. After that, "Deutschland" was forced to return to Wilhelmshaven, and in the summer of 1938 he was finally recalled to his homeland.

    2 Spanish planes sent home German pocket battleship ... a very good result ...
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 22 September 2012 09: 37
      0
      What about Deutschland battleship? Did not know....
      1. Gad
        Gad 22 September 2012 11: 00
        0
        At first, the Deutschland was listed as a battleship, then as a heavy cruiser, but unofficially it was always called a "pocket battleship", since the main caliber was much more powerful than the cruising one and corresponded to the caliber of the Scharnhorst-class battleships.
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 22 September 2012 12: 15
          0
          Yes, thanks, but I don’t know)). I asked a question - Deutschland battleship? And how he was listed for me do not care. The Aurora is also being repaired by a cruiser ...
          The Washington conference identified the battleship as a ship over 10 tons and with guns more than 203 mm, the Germans had their problems with the Treaty of Versailles ... Politicians have little understanding in armament
    2. Santa Fe
      22 September 2012 14: 54
      0
      With insufficiently armored ships, this happened regularly.

      In the same way, the cruisers Dorsetshire and Cornwell were killed. They were drowned with bombs in a few minutes
  12. Santa Fe
    25 September 2012 23: 01
    0
    Radar Patriot RAS-3
    300 meters of such cables - the airship will bend.

    Detection Range of this tiny antenna:
    0,1 m² (head of the rocket) 70 km,
    0,5 m² (rocket) - 100 km
    1,5 m² (fighter) - 130 km
    10 m² (bomber) - 180 km
    1. Kars
      Kars 26 September 2012 00: 17
      0
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      Radar Patriot RAS-3

      is this all antenna? are you sure

      And that the conversation at Spee's cost is over? I still don’t know how much Stark cost.
      1. Santa Fe
        27 September 2012 14: 06
        0
        Quote: Kars
        is this all antenna? are you sure

        here's another photo
        Quote: Kars
        And that the conversation at the cost of Spee ended?

        She will enter a new phase)))

        Regarding the airship - you need a hangar, you need to monitor the condition of the shell, pressurize helium + cable harness XMUMX in length (if you want to get a height of at least 600 m). + mass of the radar itself - the airship will be very large

        Hokai radar diameter 7 meters
        1. Kars
          Kars 27 September 2012 14: 15
          0
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          here's another photo

          Here's another question - is it an antenna or radar assembly?
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          She will enter a new phase)))

          Quote: Kars
          260 dollars of modern dollars

          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Stark's overhaul cost 142 million

          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          It costs less than 1 / 10 Spee


          I want to see how you prove Stark’s price of 26 million dollars.
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Regarding the airship - you need a hangar, you need to monitor the condition of the shell, pressurize helium + cable harness XMUMX in length (if you want to get a height of at least 600 m). + mass of the radar itself - the airship will be very large

          An aerostat, in a deflated form, a large hangar is not needed. No one was going to raise the radar, but only its antenna))))))