Military Review

Weapons from the Bayesian canvas ...

255

Norman cavalry attacking the "shield wall" of King Harold's foot soldiers. Rice. Angus McBride


And, each taking his own battle weaponAnd having lit the lights on their towers, they spent the whole night on guard.
Judith 14: 2

Rarities stories. Today we continue to study the tapestry from Bayeux, which, strictly speaking, is still not a tapestry, but an embroidery, but today we will deal not so much with the "tapestry" itself (there we have to consider perhaps the most interesting scenes!), As depicted on him with the weapons and equipment of the warriors.

First of all, it is interesting that both Harold's warriors and William's warriors are very similar in embroidery. Actually, you cannot distinguish them, if you do not know that the army of the first fought on foot, and the soldiers of the second - on horseback.

Weapons from the Bayesian canvas ...
Typical one-piece forged helmet from the Battle of Hastings era. Found in Olomuts in 1864. Chamber of the court hunting and protective weapons. New Hovburg, Vienna


Norman helmet of St. Wenceslas 955. Chapel of the Holy Cross at Prague Castle

Judging by the images of the tapestry, both the nobility and ordinary warriors had a simple conical helmet as protection for the head, which could be either one-piece forged or riveted from several metal strips. A feature of all helmets was a fairly wide nose plate. The plate was wide enough to cover the face, together with chain mail, beyond recognition. It is obvious that the warriors did not wear liners made of fabric at that time. Most likely, the leather (or fabric) lining was inside the helmets themselves. According to the drawings on the tapestry, the helmets were painted on top to protect them from corrosion. Solid forged in one color, but riveted from stripes in different colors, so the warriors in them looked rather unusual in our modern opinion.


Painted Bayeux Tapestry helmets. Rice. I. Dzysya. "Zeikhgauz" No. 11 (6/2000)

Next comes chain mail. In the children's encyclopedia from 1968, on a page with images of warriors from different eras, a warrior from the Bayonne Carpet was also depicted, dressed in an overalls trimmed with rings - just like the armor of warriors on a tapestry. For a long time, I assumed that was the case. But then he looked at the border, where the chain mail from the fallen is being removed over the head and thought: "But what about short pants?" And then there was the sword, passed under the chain mail. If this is a shirt, then, in general, you can walk with it like that. But you can't walk with a sword tucked into your pants.

Then, in the books of the Osprey publishing house, I read that, apparently, what many used to take for chain mail overalls was actually chain mail, and the "pants" were its genders. It's just that the embroiderers did not bother to embroider the back of it, which, in theory, should have been visible between the legs. That is, a number of conventions in the images of the "carpet" still took place.

Again, judging by the images on the border, under the chain mail, William's horsemen and Harold's infantrymen had only one long shirt, like a night shirt. We see the same thing in the miniature from "The Bible of Matsievsky", which shows how the chain mail is taken off and put on, although there are also many images showing that something else was worn under it.

In general, the chain mail armor depicted on the "canvas from Bayeux" could well have been the most ordinary long-sex chain mail (clothes for the rider!) On ... lining and with slits in the front and back, like the later English coat. The floors of such chain mail, when walking, could well wrap around the legs and create the appearance of pants! By the way, it was in these chain mails with two cuts in front and behind the Normans that Angus McBride, an artist of the Osprey publishing house, painted. True, not a single such chain mail has survived to our time, but taking into account all the circumstances and again the images on the embroidery, it should have been that way.


An example of the classic combination of rings, where four rings are connected in one - this is the technology that was used in the chain mail of St. Wenceslas

Chain mail of the XI century practically did not reach us, except in scraps. Moreover, among the relics of the Czech Republic there is the chain mail of St. Wenceslas weighing 10 kg, riveted from iron and gold rings.


But in the Museum "Collection of Wallace" In London there is, for example, chain mail 1331-1370 years. It is believed to have belonged to Rudolf IV of Habsburg, Duke of Austria, Carinthia and Ferreta (1339-1365). The chain mail is hip-length with fairly wide three-quarter sleeves and consists of alternating rows of riveted and welded rings. The riveted links are closed by wedge-shaped rivets with small rounded heads with a diameter of 1,47 mm. The cuffs are edged with three rows of brass links held together with wedge-shaped iron rivets, and the bottom edge is framed in two rows. A collar made of thick riveted chain mail of the 12,68th century is added to the neck. Overall dimensions: rivet ring diameter outside 8,66 mm, inside 1,36 mm, wire thickness 2,00 mm, wire width 12,62 mm; diameter of the welded ring outside 8,31 mm, inside 1,30 mm, wire thickness 2,18 mm, wire width 1100 mm. When installed, the total height is 500 mm, the width is 10,57 mm. Weight: XNUMX kg

On the tapestry, again, there are often certain squares on chain mail on the chest of knights. This is most likely a leather-lined chain mail flap that covers the throat and lower face. It is easy to see that at the moment of the battle, instead of squares, only a narrow strip is depicted, and the lower part of the warrior's face is completely covered with chain mail.


It is interesting that such armor jackets were worn by the Tlingit Indians. Smithsonian Institution National Museum of the American Indian, Washington

At one time it was believed that the Normans of Wilhelm used chain mail not from riveted, but from rings sewn onto fabric. The fact is that in miniatures from manuscripts of an earlier time, the armor of the riders is depicted as scaly. That is, it is armor made of metal plates sewn onto a soft base. And if so, why shouldn't the soldiers wear "armor" made of rings sewn onto the fabric? It seems to be logical ... But the fact is that it makes no sense to make such rings riveted. It is simpler - whole cut or shackled, but archaeologists do not find such, but scraps of classic chain mail are found.


Drawings of some illustrators on the theme of such armor cannot but amaze. For example, an illustration from the book V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. "Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC – AD1914 ”London, Cassell, 1994, depicting a Norman horseman in 1066. Well, why did they draw him like that? Firstly, there is no image of such a shield on the tapestry, and secondly, by the time the book was published, all disputes regarding the "pseudo-rings" on it seemed to have already subsided. And thirdly, why is the rider given an ax in his hand, moreover, of such a strange shape? They chopped firewood like that, not people. It is enough to look at the tapestry to be convinced of this! Or, say - first look at the tapestry and then look at the collections of the Royal Armory in Leeds. Was there not yet the Internet in 1991?


An example of chain mail weaving of the XNUMXth century. Chamber of court hunting and protective weapons. New Hofburg, Vienna

Some warriors on the canvas are depicted dressed, that is, they wear something similar to a long-length robe over their chain mail. Who is this? Bishop Odo is William's half-brother. Igor Dzys drew a remarkable reconstruction of his appearance in his time and published it in the Tseikhgauz magazine in 2000.


Here is his drawing. Article by I. Dzys and A. Shcherbakov "Army of Wilhelm the Conqueror". "Zeikhgauz" No. 11 (6/2000)


And this is how Bishop Odo is depicted on the tapestry. He is without a shield and in his hand he has a gnarled club - the wand of the leader. It is written that he encourages young warriors before battle!


The famous tapestry scene depicting the moment when word spread among the Normans that their leader had been killed. "William is here!"- shouts Eustace of Bologna and forces Wilhelm to raise his helmet. It is significant that Eustace's chain mail has a square on his chest, but Wilhelm's does not. That is, it is obvious that this is some kind of removable piece of chain mail armor. Both the Conqueror and Eustace have chain mail stockings on their feet. Ordinary soldiers do not have them. That's just this on the tapestry to know and ordinary riders and differ


And this, for comparison, is chain mail from Augsburg, Germany, dating from the end of the XIV - the beginning of the XV century. Length: 73,7 cm. Diameter of rings: 1,11 cm. Weight: 4,479 kg

It is known that knights of the Early Middle Ages could wear two chain mail at once. The first was lined with silk or linen, the second was lined with leather, and on top of this two-layer armor was also covered with a quilted caftan. And this protection was so strong and perfect that it protected both from arrows and from stabbing blows with a sword. A chopping blow could shatter bones, but it was not able to cut through two layers of metal with a shock-absorbing pad. In particular, it was precisely such armor that the Arab knight Osama ibn Munkyz wore, as he wrote about in his Book of Edification.

We see two types of shields on the tapestry: round, convex among the Saxons, although they use both Norman shields, and teardrop-shaped, in the form of an "inverted drop" or "kite" (in English terminology). The shields have a metal umbo and are decorated with images of a branchy and expanding cross at the ends (the last image is only one), as well as the figure of a dragon. They not only protect themselves with shields, but also eat from them, using instead of tabletops! Many shields have no decorations at all.


For example, here's how the shields of those fighting on fragment 58 look like ...


The cross, including those with sinuous ends, is a very ancient symbol. It is believed that such crosses also adorned the teardrop-shaped shields of Russian soldiers who defended the Zolotarevskoe settlement in 1236/37. This reconstruction was created based on the image of a warrior on one of the decorations, so this is not an invention - it was so. But, alas, it is impossible to verify what this meant. Museum of the Zolotarevskoe settlement. Pos. Zolotarevka, Penza region


Spurs. Without them, a knight was not a knight, but at first they were very simple. Here's how these, for example, from the Moravian Museum in Brno. Photo by the author

The horsemen from the tapestry, for the most part, hold spears in a completely unqualified manner! That is, it is practically a technique of kushin a spear, when it is clamped under the armpit, they do not use it, but prefer to throw it. However, why so, it is understandable, because they have to fight with a wall of shields! Interestingly, the spearheads on the tapestry do not yet have a bounding crosshair. And, by the way, they are very similar to spearheads of that time, ubiquitous in Europe, including on the lands of Russia.

The shape of the tips was very different ...


Tip 900-1300 Royal Arsenal, Leeds


Tip XI-XV centuries. Royal Arsenal, Leeds


Tip of the XI century. Mordovian Republican United Museum of Local Lore named after I.D.Voronin


Another tip of the same time ... Mordovian Republican United Museum of Local Lore named after I. D. Voronin


In theory, the riders' spearheads should have been like this, but ... in 1066 they had not thought of such a simple device as the “wings” on the tip sleeve. Spearhead 23,3th century Length 2579,8 cm.Weight XNUMX g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


But the spears of many warriors on the tapestry were decorated with pennants and flags. Rice. I. Dzysya. "Zeikhgauz" No. 11 (6/2000)


And here is finally the Norman battle ax, 900-1000. Royal Arsenal, Leeds. It was with such long-handled axes that the famous Huskerls fought!


Battle ax-ax of the X-XI centuries, found on the territory of modern Mordovia. Looks like it, doesn't it? Mordovian Republican United Museum of Local Lore named after I.D.Voronin

And, of course, having used up all the spears, William's warriors began to chop the Saxons with swords, and they, in turn, even having swords (which is clearly visible on the tapestry), preferred to act with their axes!

The swords are very well depicted on the tapestry, and they are all similar to, for example, the photo of the sword from the collection of the Royal Arsenal in Leeds.


Sword, circa 980-1150 Germany. Material: iron and steel. Length: 82,2 cm; blade width: 5,1 cm. Weight: 1,195 kg. The top of the handle is in the form of a paranus (Brazilian nut), the crosshair is straight, square in section, slightly tapering towards the ends. The blade is double-edged, has a shallow lobe in the middle on both sides and tapers towards the point, now rounded and corroded. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Archers played a very important role in the Battle of Hastings. They are depicted both on the main field and on the border. Moreover, there are images of archers, dressed, so to speak, in "ordinary clothes." But there are those who are shown dressed in chain mail and with a helmet on their heads.


Four archers in the main field. "Embroidery from Bayeux"


Archer in chain mail. It is interesting that he holds some of the arrows in his hand, that is, obviously for a higher rate of fire. Bows, however, are all relatively small in size. "Embroidery from Bayeux"

But there are much fewer archers on Harold's side on the embroidery (only one), and it is quite possible that this was precisely what played a role in his defeat ...

To be continued ...
Author:
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  1. Andrey Moskvin
    Andrey Moskvin 26 December 2021 04: 32
    +4
    A helmet without a comforter probably feels like a saucepan on your head. And the chain mail from Augsburg looks like yesterday from a blacksmith! Was it in the closet? wink
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 26 December 2021 04: 50
      +4
      Interesting. This refers to the article. Personally, I really liked the exposition of the Museum of the Battle of Visby. Creepy, in some places even too disgusting exhibits, but very informative ...
      1. kalibr
        26 December 2021 07: 44
        +4
        Quote: Snail N9
        Personally, I really liked the exposition of the Museum of the Battle of Visby.

        It's great that you were there !!! And what about the photo?
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 26 December 2021 08: 39
          +4
          By the way, Visby has hosted the largest Swedish reenactment festival since 1984, annually in August. Medieval week in Gotland. I have photographs, but the publication needs to be coordinated with the author.
        2. Konnick
          Konnick 26 December 2021 12: 35
          +2
          ]
          It's great that you were there !!! And what about the photo?

          I have footage of the chronicle of the Battle of Hastings bully


          Here are the techniques of cutting with a sword and an ax.
  2. Catfish
    Catfish 26 December 2021 04: 50
    +6
    Good morning friends! smile
    Vyacheslav does not let us get bored, for which we thank him very much!
    The article, as always, is on top. good
    But, the topic is not mine, so I will not get lost underfoot. smile
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 26 December 2021 05: 27
      +3
      Greetings, Constantine! hi
      Why not yours? Helmet - helmet, heavy and against edged weapons
      Chainmail - armor type
      The same injuries with blows, at speed (rider with a spear, bow / crossbow) make their way, but, in any case, cut / stabbed wounds are less invasive, respectively, less blood loss)) Well, they protected more from the weapon that existed then than individual stress protection now))
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 26 December 2021 05: 47
        +5
        Hi Albert! hi
        So I was always more interested in firearms, and in the history of the Middle Ages I generally completely swim, I have no desire to go online and copy something on the topic, but Anton and the guys will add something on the case, they have cards in their hands.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 26 December 2021 06: 10
          +3
          And I know that we were cutting for hours)))
          They died mainly:
          from untimely and unqualified medical care;
          From blood loss;
          From sepsis after battle;
          From trampling on the battlefield;
          From disease;
          And only in the last place - from injuries received in battle, incompatible with life laughing
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 26 December 2021 06: 35
            +3
            And I know that we were cutting for hours


            And medicine, of course ...
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 26 December 2021 06: 52
              +3
              In the first picture, they are already finishing off the foe, and in the second they are being treated with compulsory medical insurance
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 29
                +3
                The queue is not displayed.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 December 2021 07: 35
                  +3
                  Apparently, medical care was provided there exclusively selectively. request
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 26 December 2021 07: 44
                    +4
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    Apparently, medical care was provided there exclusively selectively.

                    Transfer the precious talent of bandaging, bloodletting and burdock onlays to simple landsknechts ?? You would also offer them leeches for free negative
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 26 December 2021 08: 23
                      +3
                      Leeches on the battlefield are cool! laughing
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 26 December 2021 10: 11
                        +3
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Leeches on the battlefield are cool! laughing

                        It depends on where to attach them lol
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 26 December 2021 10: 43
                        +6
                        Well, that's how anyone will have to. smile
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 55
                    +3
                    Probably, already then they determined - who should be engaged, and in which case it makes no sense.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 26 December 2021 08: 12
                      +3
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      Probably, already then they determined - who should be engaged, and in which case it makes no sense.

                      I think, first of all, they determined by whom worth doing - the society was well, very hierarchical, hierarchical laughing
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 26 December 2021 19: 34
                      +3
                      Probably, already then they determined - who is worth doing

                      EMNIP, either Willie or Pirogov laid this principle ... Tough, but true ...
                      Do you remember how Degen wrote: "Let me take off your boots as a keepsake - we still have to fight ..."
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 26 December 2021 20: 08
                        +4
                        Quote: Pan Kohanku
                        Probably, already then they determined - who is worth doing

                        EMNIP, either Willie or Pirogov laid this principle ... Tough, but true ...
                        Do you remember how Degen wrote: "Let me take off your boots as a keepsake - we still have to fight ..."

                        Hi, Nikolay! hi
                        “Don't moan, don't scream, you're not small
                        You are not injured, you are simply killed .. "
                        Brr..trash
                        I consider this verse obligatory for studying in high school, so that future generations do not grow up in an indifferent-militant frenzy.
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 26 December 2021 20: 16
                        +1
                        You are not injured, you are simply killed ..

                        So.
                        I consider this verse obligatory for studying in high school, so that future generations do not grow up in an indifferent-militant frenzy.

                        Young people always want to sort things out ... They do not think about the consequences ...
                        It is necessary to teach.
                        By the way, to the role of the Russian-Jewish question. My brother Lelik (Anton knows him) had a grandfather as a tanker. And a Jew! Lenya's grandfather was last called up for military service in 1968 - during the Czechoslovak crisis.
                        I have a height of 190. My grandfather Lenya Brook looked much more powerful ... And since 1942 he fought in the "thirty-four". How he got in there - I can’t put my mind to it. It burned several times in the tank.
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 26 December 2021 21: 10
                        +2
                        Oh ... if we are talking about the Second World War in the context of Russian-Jewish relations, for some reason, then the author of this strong, cynical verse, Jonah Degen, was also a Jew, one of the Soviet tank aces who volunteered for the front in the impulse of a teenage Komsomol member. I got into the tankers from the reconnaissance infantry.
                        My grandfather had a similar story - he lied about his age, joined the party at the front, was slightly wounded as an infantryman, on the Kursk Bulge, then underwent surgery for appendicitis and ... how many classes of education? Vali in tankers, tank commander courses, fought in the Su-100 against bukake lovers.
                        There were many Jews there due to, on average, a relatively high level of education. In tanks, air defense, marines (one of the founding fathers of the kind of troops, Caesar Kunikov, also yes). The art was full. Well, there was enough in the infantry, from among the meat-Komsomol volunteers (two of my uncles on the line of my grandfather - one, Abram, died, I was named after him - we call them by the first letter of the name). In army / front-line reconnaissance (my second grandfather), there was also enough. They knew German - the Yiddish South Bavarian dialect, and there were enough athletes, as among all representatives of Soviet youth.
                        But - they were SOVIET PEOPLE.
                        The separation of Jews began after the war. The reason for this was the popularity of Israel among Soviet Jews and the activity of diplomats of this country, which needed experienced military meat and engineering personnel in order to repatriate all Soviet tribesmen to the Jewish state, while the happiest state of workers and peasants was to leave strictly Haram.
                        And also the poems of Ilya Ehrenburg, who called at the end of the war (1944) to kill the Germans, when the top had plans to build the GDR (this was no longer the stage “if your house is dear to you”). And his post-war desire to publish a book about Jews, Heroes of the Soviet Union (the fourth, in my opinion, place among all nations in absolute terms), declared national bragging.
                        In short, the Russian-Jewish question never existed. There was the Ukrainian - Jewish question, solved by honey Khmelnitsky (the second place in cutting out Jews after Aloizychch), there was the Polish-Jewish question, the Baltic-Jewish (they cut out most of the remaining Yuds upon the arrival of the Germans), and Russians - they were always on the Jews, by and large, did not care, as well as the Belarusians. Well, there is and is, there have never been any particular problems. Sim Simich decided to throw the gasoline into the fire, that is: Solzhenitsin, the author of the GULAGs - decided to make money at the expense of the seven-bar, in which Goy Yesi was only a good fellow at the now deceased Vinogradov. And off it - the Russian Jews have been together for 200 years. Far-fetched bullshit in its entirety.
                        In short, neither before the Second World War, nor, moreover, during, there was no such question. And now no. Glory to Gd. hi
                      4. dmmyak40
                        dmmyak40 30 December 2021 23: 43
                        +1
                        As in The Golden Calf: there are Jews, but there is no Jewish question!
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 December 2021 20: 26
                        +3
                        I remember. The first time this poem comes across - like a whip on the skin. And you understand: this is how the war looks like without embellishment. One of the manifestations.
                2. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 26 December 2021 07: 42
                  +2
                  Why, in the background they are carrying one ..))
            2. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 26 December 2021 15: 28
              +4
              And medicine, of course ...

              If we recall the middle of the XNUMXth century, "Sevastopol Stories" by L.N. Tolstoy, it will become clear - then there were two types of combat injuries - wounds in the limb, when the wounded was saved (maybe) by cutting off this limb, and all other wounds that were considered fatal. It was unlikely that it was better at an earlier time.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 26 December 2021 17: 34
                +2
                Rather it was worse
                1. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ 26 December 2021 18: 59
                  +3
                  Of course, worse, Pirogov began to use anesthesia - deaths from pain shock decreased, and the plaster cast also saved many from amputations.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 26 December 2021 19: 36
                    +3
                    Pirogov began to use anesthesia

                    Sergey, welcome! drinks But there were no antibiotics yet. Even during the Civil War, a bullet in the stomach meant death in overwhelming cases ...
                    1. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 26 December 2021 19: 43
                      +3
                      Yes, and even Pirogov himself did not know antiseptics, before the discovery of Louis Pasteur it was still 30 years old.
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 26 December 2021 20: 09
                        +2
                        Yes, and even Pirogov himself did not know antiseptics, before the discovery of Louis Pasteur it was still 30 years old.

                        Alas... sad And when they say that the whole world has invented terrible weapons - flamethrowers, long-range rifles, explosive bullets and nuclear missiles ... but let them imagine the Middle Ages. Then they just converged, and beat each other with whoever brought what. fellow And then the victors burned down the nearest city of the defeated, massacred, robbed and raped ... negative
                        Nothing has changed in people. It's just that the technique has advanced! request
                      2. Konnick
                        Konnick 26 December 2021 20: 19
                        +1
                        Yes, and even Pirogov himself did not know antiseptics, before the discovery of Louis Pasteur it was still 30 years old.

                        Everything is relative, this is about Alena Arzamasskaya, from the magazine "Riddles of History"

                        Alena was so successful in this art that she went even further and independently mastered another drug - blue mold, which she collected in the monastery bathhouse. The ointment made from it perfectly healed purulent wounds and ulcers, which in Europe were usually cauterized with a hot iron. In our time, it is known that this was the prototype of penicillin.
                        Alena spent about 20 years in the monastery, until in 1667 a peasant war broke out under the leadership of Stepan Razin.
                      3. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 26 December 2021 20: 46
                        +1
                        Everything is relative, this is about Alena Arzamasskaya, from the magazine "Riddles of History"

                        A beautiful legend about Alena, nothing more. And about relativity - the speed of light in a vacuum is absolute.
                      4. Konnick
                        Konnick 26 December 2021 20: 58
                        +1
                        A beautiful legend about Alena, nothing more. And about relativity - the speed of light in a vacuum is absolute.

                        Well, your opinion is not absolute. Since ancient times, sphagnum has been used for dressing wounds. There are many natural antibiotics and our ancestors knew better about them.
                    2. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 26 December 2021 20: 11
                      +2
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      Even during the Civil War, a bullet in the stomach meant death in overwhelming cases ...

                      That's right - poop in the bloodstream + surrounding organs = sepsis
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 26 December 2021 20: 17
                        +3
                        That's right - poop in the bloodstream + surrounding organs = sepsis

                        Back in the early 19th century, seasoned soldiers, according to legend, preferred not to eat before the battle ...
                      2. Liam
                        Liam 26 December 2021 20: 21
                        +3
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Back in the early 19th century, seasoned soldiers, according to legend, preferred not to eat before the battle ...

                        And wear clean linen for the same reasons.
                        The problem was current up to WWII inclusive.
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 26 December 2021 23: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Back in the early 19th century, seasoned soldiers, according to legend, preferred not to eat before the battle ...

                        WWII too
              2. Orang
                Orang 27 December 2021 12: 23
                -1
                In Napoleon's army, the medical service was excellently established. The percentage of wounded survivors, I don’t remember the number, was quite large. Later, such indicators were achieved only in PMA. Surprisingly, it happened to save even with wounds in the abdominal cavity, without antibiotics.
                We put the training of military doctors on the stream, set up a quick evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield on special carts. After Bonopart, something like that was not used until the 20th century.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 December 2021 08: 45
            +2
            In the described time, by the way, with medicine it was still not bad, the experience of traditional medicine, accumulated over the centuries, had an effect. A couple of centuries later, when the universities of Europe began to massively stamp half-educated chiropractors, then a failure began in this area.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 26 December 2021 10: 13
              +2
              I ask you ... before university medicine, patients with hypovolemic shock were treated with bloodletting and allergy sufferers with herbs)).
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 December 2021 10: 20
                +3
                I know that you are well versed in the history of medicine, but I am well versed in the history of the Middle Ages, and not so much in "hardware" as in society. Let's not compare the Sorbonne of the nineteenth and thirteenth centuries?
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 26 December 2021 13: 30
                  +2
                  So I'll tell you that the medical school of the University of Heidelberg in the thirteenth century in everything related to orthopedics and some primitive medicines in many ways surpassed the achievements of traditional medicine with its decoctions, herbs and witchcraft yes
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 26 December 2021 13: 41
                    +2
                    University of Heidelberg founded in the second half of the fourteenth century
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 26 December 2021 17: 33
                      +1
                      Your truth is 1386th hi
              2. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 26 December 2021 20: 02
                +3
                before university medicine they treated hypovolemic shock sufferers with bloodletting and allergy sufferers with herbs

                Dear ones, a little about Japanese medicine of that time! drinks
                You know, I used to be fond of samurai. Even the cat's name is Mikado. good One of the main contemporary authors is Stephen Turnbull (by the way, our Vyacheslav Olegovich corresponded with him). hi
                I have this book:


                And on page 72 Tenbull writes:
                The XNUMXth Century Medicine Manual quoted by Thomas Conlan includes the following guidelines for abdominal wounds:

                "Sprinkle the insides with dry manure, then pull off the wound with threads from the roots of a mulberry tree and cover the whole place with cattail pollen. Avoid anger, laughter, reflections (!), sex, vigorous activity, work, sour food and sake. "


                In general, if Hamlet said in a famous monologue that they forced us to teach at school: "So cowards we are thoughtful ", then the author of the Japanese treatise said: "So corpses we are thoughtful ". crying

                I wonder how many samurai took his advice ... and survived after ... what
                And generally speaking, meditation, work and sex - this evil! am tongue Pray, fast, listen to radio Radonezh! Everyone! angry Including Albert! laughing Albert - especially for you! tongue drinks
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 26 December 2021 20: 24
                  +1
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  Pray, fast, listen to radio Radonezh! Everyone! Including Albert! Albert - especially for you!

                  Duc Az am a Jew yes
                  Let's finish with the Ayatolychs, then we'll listen to Rodonezh and Patricia Kaas. Ofiderzein, Lily Marlene.
                  And let's pray:
                  Hear Israel, our L-rd our G-d, L-rd One ...
                  drinks
          3. bk0010
            bk0010 26 December 2021 13: 13
            +4
            Quote: Krasnodar
            And I know that we were cutting for hours)))
            Expensive and inconvenient for hours. An ax or a spear is much better. But seriously, there won't be enough strength to cut yourself for hours.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 26 December 2021 13: 31
              0
              Quote: bk0010
              Expensive and inconvenient for hours. An ax or a spear is much better. But seriously, there won't be enough strength to cut yourself for hours.

              Not everyone fought on the front lines))
          4. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 13: 23
            +4
            Quote: Krasnodar
            hacked for hours

            I would say "we could sort things out for hours." But this did not happen often - only when numerous squads collided with the most decisive goals. In this case, the battle was broken up into a series of skirmishes with mutual attacks, retreats and pursuits. But, as far as I understand, such battles are rare. Basically, it was precisely the clashes of the squads, during which, in a matter of minutes, the advantage of one of the parties was revealed, after which the fleeing was pursued with their mass capture or extermination.
            Directly "chopping" for at least half an hour, I think, is impossible purely physically.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 26 December 2021 13: 33
              +3
              At the forefront - of course))
              Seconds, a couple of minutes. But when large masses of troops met, the action lasted for hours. Now - skirmishes of small detachments, of course, everything was resolved quickly hi
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 28
          +3
          Did this Robin have a successful hunt?
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 26 December 2021 07: 36
            +3
            Who knows? wink
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 43
              +3
              Yes. A sly and contented face could be on a permanent basis.
          2. Andrey Moskvin
            Andrey Moskvin 26 December 2021 09: 02
            +2
            Apparently unsuccessful - I lost my bow. laughing
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 26 December 2021 09: 37
              +2
              Not provable. I could have stood nearby. There are no traces of debris.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. kalibr
          26 December 2021 07: 52
          +6
          Quote: Sea Cat
          and in the history of the Middle Ages, I generally completely swim

          A brave guy will be discussed
          He was called Robin Hood.
          No wonder the memory of the daredevil
          The people cherish.
          He also didn't shave his beard,
          And there was already a shooter
          And the sturdiest bearded man
          I could not compete with him.
          But his house was burnt down by the enemies,
          And Robin Hood disappeared -
          With a band of valiant shooters
          Went to Sherwood Forest.
          Anyone shot without a miss,
          Jokingly wielded a sword.
          Attack six together
          They didn't care.
          Free shooters roamed
          All forest roads.
          A rich man will ride through the forest -
          They will take away the wallet.
          Popam did not believe Robin Hood
          And he did not spare the priests.
          Who covered his belly with a cassock
          Moreover, he was severe
          But if anyone was offended
          Sheriff, king
          He found in a deep forest
          A completely different technique.
          Hungry Robin helped
          In a lean year.
          He stood up for the widow
          And protected the orphans.
          And those who sowed and plowed,
          Didn't touch Robin Hood:
          Who knows the poor man's share
          Poor people do not rob.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 26 December 2021 08: 04
            0
            He is so much like a Genius among geniuses in military strategy, a Brilliant Comrade, a New Star, the Supreme Leader of the Party, Army and People, Marshal of the DPRK Kim Jong-un ... crying
          2. Van 16
            Van 16 26 December 2021 10: 20
            +5
            "If they are searching for your
            Unruly head
            So that a thin neck noose
            Make it thinner, -
            There is no more reliable shelter:
            Hide into the forest - you won't be lost, -
            If you are sold to someone
            With giblets not for a penny.
            Poor and poor fellows
            Despising the life of a servant,
            And homeless vagabonds
            Who has only debts -
            All who are driven, restless,
            They run to this free forest, -
            Because the master is here -
            Nice guy Robin Hood! "(C)
  3. Free wind
    Free wind 26 December 2021 05: 23
    +4
    The little horse is just lovely, The tails are usually cut, though, otherwise they will grab the burrs. I like these animals, although there are such creatures ... and mares. I wonder why archers with bent arms seem to shoot from a straight arm. All with the coming. All the best to you!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 December 2021 06: 54
      +3
      Quote: Free Wind
      The little horse is just lovely
      I agree completely!
      The tails are, however, usually cut off, the burrs will be picked up otherwise. I like these animals

      I agree too!
      at least there are such creatures ... and mares.
      forgive for God's sake, but I can't resist making a mistake here - now I know the second "nightmare" of the respected Wind! For many years, I thought that the comrade loved the UAZ with "fierce hatred", but it turns out not only "there are some mares" !!!
      ] I wonder why archers with bent arms seem to shoot from a straight arm. All with the coming. All the best to you!

      I think the Authors of the tapestry portrayed them running. Hence a bunch of arrows in the hands of one of the archers.
      I will join good wishes - sincerely! I repent for my liberty about mares, I could not resist - I fought!
  4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 December 2021 06: 45
    +5
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, traditional thanks!
    Although not complementary.

    Illustration footnote "First, there is no such shield on the tapestry."
    See a fragment of the "tapestry" below

    Most with Norman-type kite shields. And below you write that Norman shields have a place to be? As I understand the questions about the picture on the shield!
    Although I have added a claim to the horse harness. The last one was drawn at the end of the 19th century, but not 11.
    If, what's wrong, I'm sorry for the tediousness !!!
    1. kalibr
      26 December 2021 07: 41
      +3
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      As I understand the questions about the picture on the shield!

      Certainly! You saw that there is no such pattern on any of the Bayeux shields. This is a later time. And harness, yes, 19th century. There is no tediousness here - on the contrary, I am glad of such an attentive attitude.
  5. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 26 December 2021 06: 45
    +4
    And this is how Bishop Odo is depicted on the tapestry. He is without a shield and in his hand he has a gnarled club - the wand of the leader.
    This is not a wand of the leader, but an ordinary club, a weapon of a clergyman, who is not allowed by the clergy to shed blood.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 26 December 2021 06: 54
      +3
      Anton, is this a type of weapon to disperse demonstrations, non-lethal? ))
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 07: 18
        +4
        His non-lethality is doubtful, Albert, but there is really little blood. By the way, you are partly right, one of the main activities of Odo, after the conquest of England, was the suppression of rebellions. And he was so carried away by this business that later he himself became a rebel.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 26 December 2021 07: 23
          +1
          Anton, when a person is beaten on the head with a club, there is enough blood))
          Another thing is if the person is in armor, then internal bleeding is not visible))
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 December 2021 07: 58
            +3
            "If you get hit in the eye,
            You involuntarily cry out
            Hit once, hit twice
            Then get used to it. " (WITH)
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 26 December 2021 08: 08
              +1
              If they hit you in the eye once
              You are not copy-paste yet
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 26 December 2021 07: 38
          +2
          later he himself became a rebel.


          Who will you lead ... request

          Hello Anton! hi
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 December 2021 08: 15
            +3
            Hi Uncle Kostya!
            The bastard left behind a dynastic incident that ran counter to the traditions of vassalage. He was the cause of the rebellion.
        3. vladcub
          vladcub 26 December 2021 12: 06
          +2
          "became a rebel" probably, he got tired of suppressing riots and decided to change his role?
          What about grandfather Krylov: "she is tired of knowing the fish table" (epigram on Chichagov)
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 26
        +2
        That is, a candidate for the spiritual patron of the police has been found?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 26 December 2021 07: 39
          +2
          And I kept wondering whose portrait this is hanging in Mr. Zolotov's office. laughing
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 49
            +1
            Among the Europeans, the place is taken by Saint Sebastian.

            And the internal troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs since the beginning of the 2000s, it turns out, have chosen the patron of the Equal-to-the-Apostles Prince Vladimir.

            And why is it not so surprising?
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 26 December 2021 08: 05
              +2
              And why is it not so surprising?


              And why?
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 26 December 2021 09: 40
                +2
                "The Chukchi knows who our party leader is" (c).
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 December 2021 09: 44
                  +2
                  Hmm, sir, downright "from rags to riches." What can you say ... request
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 25
      +2
      Can you strike with a truncheon?
    3. kalibr
      26 December 2021 07: 42
      +3
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      This is not a wand of the leader, but an ordinary club, a weapon of a clergyman, who is not allowed by the clergy to shed blood.

      That's a moot point. I read about the fact that the military leaders were distinguished by truncheons. Did not invent.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 08: 04
        +1
        I didn’t claim what you came up with. After all, the field marshal's batons must start from somewhere. I wrote about a specific case. Odo is first and foremost a priest, and only then a politician and military leader.
  6. Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 December 2021 07: 22
    +3
    The supreme commander cannot do without a club.
  7. LisKat2
    LisKat2 26 December 2021 07: 24
    +2
    Good morning everyone. "The shape of the tips was very different" perhaps there were many artisans who supplied weapons. Did everyone do what he could?
    1. kalibr
      26 December 2021 08: 07
      +1
      Quote: LisKat2
      Did everyone do what he could?

      Not only. There were armor-piercing - subulate and in the form of a chisel, chopping for firing at unarmored, moon-shaped ones - to chop ropes on ships.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 08: 55
        +2
        lunar - to cut ropes on ships.
        Cuttings were also used for hunting game birds.
        1. Andrey Moskvin
          Andrey Moskvin 26 December 2021 09: 07
          +1
          Also in the form of a two-horned fork.
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 26 December 2021 14: 08
          0
          Weren't crushing tips used to hunt game birds? In the form of pointed rhombuses ...
          After all, it is a cut-off for the release of blood - a wide cutting tip.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 December 2021 14: 25
            +2
            On a forest bird, yes, crushing, because in the forest branches can interfere with the wide blade of the tip. And for schooling waterfowl - cutting is more convenient.
  8. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 09: 30
    +1
    Good morning everybody!
    Thanks to the author for continuing the topic! And she (the topic) is very interesting - the weapon used at that time.
    Unfortunately, in comparison with the high Middle Ages, very little has survived to our time. Classic protection - chain mail made of round rings "four in one". But the helmets ...
    Vyacheslav Olegovich gives two types of conical helmets: one-piece forged and riveted strips. But were they equally common? To produce a sufficiently massively forged helmet of this shape, Europe had to go another two hundred years ...
  9. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 09: 32
    +2
    An interesting point:
    Wilhelm's warriors in equipment and weapons are practically indistinguishable from the Russian vigilantes of that time.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 26 December 2021 09: 45
      +1
      The difference in equipment began to appear only after more than a hundred years.
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 10: 05
        +1
        Yes, especially from the middle of the 13th century. Europe has gone dramatically to progress in metalworking technologies.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 26 December 2021 10: 25
          +1
          I think that it is not so much a matter of European progress in metalworking as, in principle, of the necessary sufficiency of weapons and equipment used in Russia. The Swedes, by the way, have the same picture.
        2. bk0010
          bk0010 26 December 2021 13: 18
          +2
          In Russia, there was metal seams: marsh iron in the main. And Novgorod sold iron to the side, to Europe. Therefore, there was not much to progress on.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 17: 18
            +2
            Quote: bk0010
            Novgorod iron on the side, sold to Europe

            Novgorod did not sell iron, but bought it. And through it, iron was imported to Russia.
            Novgorod exported wax, honey, furs, flax, walrus bone, etc. to Europe.
            Heard about Novgorod castlesаx and in general hardware on the European market, scaled armor of Novgorod production is found in Europe until the XIV century, but there was no such thing about trading in raw iron. Products only.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 13: 42
      +4
      Considering that both are essentially descendants of the same Vikings, only some romanized and others Slavicized, this similarity does not seem surprising at all.
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 14: 02
        +2
        I'm not surprised, I just notice ...
        But it is also interesting that in our historical memory the ancient warrior was imprinted in this form, but in the West it is such a stylized knight and always in armor!
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 14: 20
          +5
          Quote: CHEREDA73
          stylized knight and always in armor

          There is a lot of armor left after them from those times.
          And here, at the time when Europe was donning plate armor, on the contrary, there was an orientalization of weapons - they climbed from chain mail into tigilai.
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 14: 29
            +4
            Yes, tagilay somehow doesn't look very good for historical memory.
    3. kalibr
      26 December 2021 16: 21
      +3
      CHEREDA73 (Eugene)
      An interesting point:
      Wilhelm's warriors in equipment and weapons are practically indistinguishable from the Russian vigilantes of that time.


      Volga and Mikula Selyaninovich. Bilibin ... One to one practically!
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 16: 32
        +1
        Your illustrations are good, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
        When drawing, it is clearer than words. Thanks!
  10. vladcub
    vladcub 26 December 2021 09: 56
    +1
    "they prefer to throw them" - already a peak. Typically: lances were lighter than spears
    1. CHEREDA73
      CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 10: 11
      +3
      Rather, it's the other way around. The peak will be heavier.
      Probably you meant the street.
  11. Undecim
    Undecim 26 December 2021 10: 26
    +8
    In theory, the riders' spearheads should have been like this, but ... in 1066 they had not thought of such a simple device as the “wings” on the tip sleeve.

    Have thought of it. And much earlier.

    There were just different spears. The winged spear was not intended for throwing. This is precisely the piercing melee weapon. If he was thrown, then as a last resort and a short distance.
    And if it is a throwing weapon, then it is disposable, and accordingly this is the most simplified version. He does not need "wings" limiting the depth of penetration. By the way, there is such a spear on the tapestry too.
  12. Engineer
    Engineer 26 December 2021 10: 33
    +5
    The horsemen from the tapestry, for the most part, hold spears in a completely unqualified manner! That is, it is practically a technique of kushirovaniye of a spear, when it is clamped under the armpit, they do not use it, but prefer to throw it.

    Judging by the pictorial sources, the attack with a spear in Europe before the 12th century is not known. It seems to me that it was worth mentioning separately.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 26 December 2021 11: 09
      +8
      Judging by the pictorial sources, the attack with a spear in Europe before the 12th century is not known.

      Maybe it is still known, but not widely used?

      Illustration from the Golden Psalter of the St. Gallen Monastery, late 9th century.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 26 December 2021 12: 44
        +5
        I gave the opinion of Williams and Capwell, which I first read in the article
        An Experimental Investigation of Late Medieval Combat with the Couched Lance
        In the picture you have given, there is no enemy attack, therefore, it cannot be considered evidence of such an early use of handled equipment.
        1. Liam
          Liam 26 December 2021 12: 57
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          I gave an opinion

          https://www.studmed.ru/view/bennet-m-bredberi-dzh-i-dr-voyny-i-srazheniya-srednevekovya-500-1500-gg_ca5dbb995b8.html?page=5
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 26 December 2021 14: 16
            +6
            Surprisingly good selection of historiography, thanks
            It is a pity that you like to sneer and argue more)
            1. Liam
              Liam 26 December 2021 14: 59
              +3
              As if you weren't arguing with Undecim now)
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 26 December 2021 15: 11
                +5
                Here again you argue. What kind of person)
                1. Liam
                  Liam 26 December 2021 15: 28
                  +4
                  Now I do not argue ... now I am malicious)
        2. Undecim
          Undecim 26 December 2021 16: 06
          +6
          I gave the opinion of Williams and Capwell

          And I - the opinion of the monks of the monastery of St. Gall, one of the largest scientific and cultural centers of medieval Europe.
          In the picture you have given, there is no enemy attack, therefore, it cannot be considered evidence of such an early use of handled equipment.

          The logic, of course, is purely academic. For more than two hundred years, people carried a spear under their armpits and could not guess that it was convenient to poke the enemy with this spear from this position.
          1. kalibr
            26 December 2021 16: 17
            +3
            Quote: Undecim
            For more than two hundred years, people carried a spear under their armpits and could not guess that it was convenient to poke the enemy with this spear from this position.

            Ha ha ha! Darkness of the Middle Ages!
            1. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 16: 39
              +3
              Here's an example that came to my mind:
              1147 - the first mention in the annals of Moscow, Dolgoruky called someone there ...
              We don't think there was an empty space before 1147, do we? Maybe in the 10th century there was something there, some kind of settlement, as the place is convenient.
              So it is here with this spear: if the first known illustration is dated to the 12th century (for example), this does not mean that until that time the knights were unaware of the possibility of using this fighting technique.
          2. Engineer
            Engineer 26 December 2021 16: 40
            +4
            "Academic" logic is much more reliable here because it fixes what was, and not what could have been.
            On Bayo's tapestry, combat scenes are shown, but the warriors do not pinch the spear under their arm.
            either attack with an overhand grip or place the spear in a low position along the forearm. I don’t know what they thought of, I’m just stating a fact following the historians.
            As an analogy, I can give an example from antiquity. On the relief from Khalchayan, where the rider, depicted not at the time of the attack, also holds a spear under his arm, but at the same time, on battle scenes, the riders hold the spear almost exclusively with a two-handed grip (except for the upper left rider on the Orlat plate, but there is a double interpretation). Therefore, I believe that composition in iconography (whether the moment of the direct attack is shown or not) is fundamentally important.
            User Liam cited above a source with a brief analysis of historiography. It follows from it that in science there really is a consensus about the timing of the prevalence of the attack with a spear. From the 12th century and hardly earlier.
            Find a similar image before the 12th century
            https://twitter.com/medievalspirit_/status/1014231873994854401
            and I think everyone will thank you
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 26 December 2021 16: 46
              +4
              So you still decide:
              attack with a spear in Europe before the 12th century is not known.

              or
              about the timing of the dominance of the attack with the spear. From the 12th century and hardly earlier.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 26 December 2021 16: 48
                +3
                My original post looked like this
                Judging by the pictorial sources, the attack with a whipped spear in Europe before the 12th century is not known.

                So I see no contradiction
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 26 December 2021 17: 02
                  +2
                  Well, since "known" and "prevailed" are the same thing - so be it.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 26 December 2021 17: 07
                    0
                    It's simple.
                    According to Liam's link, historians analyzed not only pictorial, but also narrative sources. Therefore, I formulated the conclusion for them in a more general form.
                    My original post was about images only.
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 26 December 2021 17: 22
                      +3
                      The absence of a historical source about a historical fact does not deny the possibility of the existence of this very fact.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 26 December 2021 17: 41
                        +2
                        I simply trusted the authority of these authors and wrote that the images of attacking horsemen in Europe with a spear are not known. That's all.
                        The implication of my original post was:
                        "The Normans from Bayot's canvas attack without holding the spear under their arm, and this is fully consistent with the conclusions of historiography, according to which the transition to the technique of spear training occurred later, in the 12th century."
                        Could anyone theoretically have ridden with a spear in the 11th century? Quite. But this is not a pattern revealed by history. Just speculation in the original meaning of the word
                      2. kalibr
                        26 December 2021 17: 54
                        +2
                        Quote: Undecim
                        The absence of a historical source about a historical fact does not deny the possibility of the existence of this very fact.

                        No, just look at what he writes ?! Every phrase, then Cicero's speech against Catiline! My applause!
                      3. Liam
                        Liam 26 December 2021 17: 57
                        +4
                        Quote: Undecim
                        The absence of a historical source about a historical fact does not deny the possibility of the existence of this very fact.

                        Very much like what the probability of meeting a dinosaur on the street is.
                      4. Undecim
                        Undecim 26 December 2021 18: 05
                        +3
                        Very much like what the probability of meeting a dinosaur on the street is.

                        It only seems so at first glance. And if you read something like "Philosophical Problems of Historical Science", then the question is seen somewhat differently.
                      5. Liam
                        Liam 26 December 2021 18: 36
                        +1
                        You can also philosophize. For example, about the fact that most historians who have been deeply involved in the issue (unlike us VO users) still believe that the most correct hypothesis is the 12th century. You can also philosophize about how the canvas is not a specialized source on this topic, for sure also (and even to the greatest extent) it is not a drawing of monks. A separate philosophical chapter can be written on the topic, and what is the likelihood that those who made the canvas depicted not what it was in reality, but differently.
                        And finally ..



                        This picture does not tell us that the person fired this gun while holding it on his shoulder. Out of context, a colleague is right about this, one should not draw unambiguous conclusions.
      2. Sergey Aleksandrovich
        Sergey Aleksandrovich 26 December 2021 20: 48
        -1
        The inscription in the lower right corner of Xll mlLlA doesn't look like a date? Why the end of the 9th century?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 26 December 2021 21: 16
          +2
          Why the end of the 9th century?

          A question that is phenomenal in its depth! Because the ninth century had its end. And during this end, the monks of the monastery of Saint Gall wrote this Psalter. Why did they decide to write at this particular time - so they wrote something all the time - from the XNUMXth century.
          As for "looks like a date" - no comment.
          1. Sergey Aleksandrovich
            Sergey Aleksandrovich 26 December 2021 21: 19
            -2
            If Xll does not mean the 12th century, then what is it?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 December 2021 21: 42
              +1
              Military unit number, "Twelfth thousand"
              1. Sergey Aleksandrovich
                Sergey Aleksandrovich 26 December 2021 22: 01
                -2
                It was a sinful thing to think that this is the twelfth century of the new era, and this turns out to be the 12th squadron, with the intention of galloping 12 miles.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 December 2021 22: 05
                  +3
                  This is Latin, 12th century in the "Vulgate" - XII a. D.
            2. Undecim
              Undecim 26 December 2021 21: 43
              +3
              XII MILIA in Latin - 12 thousand. Since the signature under the miniature tells of the defeat of Idumea by David in the Valley of Salt, it is most likely the loss of the Edomites.
              1. Liam
                Liam 26 December 2021 22: 03
                +2
                Quote: Undecim
                David

                Not David, but his general Joab. 12 thousand, the number of the enemy army.
                These are 60 psalms.
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 26 December 2021 22: 18
                  +2
                  Yes, not David, but his nephew.
              2. Sergey Aleksandrovich
                Sergey Aleksandrovich 26 December 2021 22: 04
                -1
                A weak version, because the defeated in the illustration are not observed.
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 26 December 2021 22: 16
                  +2
                  You would immediately write that you represent the "Venya witness sect". I would not waste time throwing pearls. All the best.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 17: 29
      +3
      Quote: Engineer
      spear attack

      I remember that there was already a discussion about food here.
      The question then rested on what is considered to be cunning: is it just a special grip of any spear, or is it a complex of various tricks designed to deliver the most powerful blow.
      If the former, then, of course, the "armpit" grip of the spear has been known since time immemorial.
      If the second, then the training includes a special riding position, a saddle-type saddle, long stirrups, a spear longer than usual, specially trained and trained horses, also, by the way, protected by special armor and, in the end, a forearm on a cuirass.
      The second point of view is closer to me.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 26 December 2021 17: 52
        +3
        If the second, then the training includes a special riding position, a saddle-type saddle, long stirrups, a spear longer than usual, specially trained and trained horses, also, by the way, protected by special armor and, in the end, a forearm on a cuirass.
        The second point of view is closer to me.

        Maybe this is, nevertheless, a tournament technique, adjusted to strictly defined tasks - to knock the enemy out of the saddle?
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 18: 21
          +3
          Spear training became the main method of horse attack sometime in the XNUMXth century.
          At that time, as far as I understand, there was still no significant separation between tournament and combat equipment. Tournaments were not much different from real combat operations both in terms of equipment and tactics.
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 26 December 2021 17: 57
        +2
        I did not participate in it)
        Williams and Capwell refer to the first option as curing. Without any gimmicks. Arguing with this means arguing about terminology, and this is not interesting to me)
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 December 2021 18: 16
          +4
          They do not argue about the terms, they agree on them. smile
          But if we talk about kushivanie, just as one of the ways to hold the spear, then the discussion, in my opinion, loses its meaning. Holding the spear under the armpit during the attack without additional measures to strengthen the rider's position and "connect" it with the spear to create a single rigid system "horse-rider-spear" does not give any significant advantage.
          But when the knights begin to lengthen the spears, rigidly fixing themselves in the saddle, the situation changes - the force of the ramming blow and its distance increase significantly and the attack with the spear becomes the main form of equestrian combat.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 26 December 2021 18: 30
            +2
            So what is the formulation of the question?
            When this is all
            But when the knights begin to lengthen the spears, rigidly fixing themselves in the saddle, the situation changes - the force of the ramming blow and its distance increase significantly and the attack with the spear becomes the main form of equestrian combat.


            appeared?
            So again, the 12th century. I constantly come across confirmation of this fact.
            For example, here is the 12th century. Straight stereotypical knight attack
            [Center]
            PS After Williams's experiments, sort of refuting the influence of the saddle design on the effectiveness of the blow, it occurred to me that high bows are needed primarily to stay in the saddle when the enemy hits you
            1. Liam
              Liam 26 December 2021 19: 05
              +3
              This method of holding the spear under the arm is effective only if the trajectory of movement practically does not change, the target is either stationary, or itself goes on a head-on course and does not change it. And the target should be at one more or less height, that is, also on a horse. either to knightly tournaments or to the attack of dense ranks of horsemen who are well protected from penetrating blows by armor. Before the use of such armor, this method of attack with a spear was meaningless.
            2. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 21: 24
              0
              Denis, according to Newton's Third Law, absolutely all the same you influence the enemy or the enemy on you. Without a high back bow, in both cases.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 27 December 2021 10: 54
                0
                Let me remind you that school mechanics operates exclusively on absolutely rigid (non-deformable) bodies.
                Draw a village of counteraction along the spear, it is equal to the force of the blow and is aimed at the rider striking.
                What is the problem? That spear deformable... Part of the energy will be spent on its deformation and break in the limit.
                The spear acts as a safety device that limits the energy of impact on both the target and the rider.
                Let me remind you that the saddles of the same antique cataphracts did not have a high back bow.
                Without a high back bow, you can.)
                1. CHEREDA73
                  CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 11: 25
                  0
                  This is all clear. Of course, you can make a spear with a "reed", there will be a good "fuse", as you say, only this is no longer a combat weapon.
                  Regarding the occurrence of vibrations in the longitudinal bar as a result of axial loading: I am familiar with both the theory and the resistance material.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 27 December 2021 11: 31
                    -1
                    There is no need for such demagoguery. The spear does not need to be made with a reed. It needs to be done Sufficient by strength.
                    I believe that it was made from pine for a reason and for a reason, additional points were awarded for breaking a spear at tournaments. And the expression "to break the spears" was not just synonymous with equestrian combat.
                    And you still ignore antique saddles without a bow. According to your logic, a ramming strike is impossible in them. And he was.
                    1. CHEREDA73
                      CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 11: 43
                      0
                      Dear Denis!
                      If you wish, this discussion can be continued indefinitely. I have neither desire nor time. Certain conclusions can already be drawn, and they are as follows:
                      The Williams-Capwell experiment raises considerable doubts among readers who have read it in more detail.
                      It is not entirely correct to refer to this experience as a "source".
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 December 2021 11: 56
                        0
                        Dear Eugene (no irony)
                        If you focus on one aspect, then any dispute will quickly become absurd.
                        The Williams and company experience is the "source". The source of our knowledge and understanding. Experimental and unique.
                        Williams' experience was solely determined by the impact on the target. And here I will repeat for the tenth time that its significance is very great.
                        The problem of the rider's stability upon impact was not evaluated in the experiment. This is some kind of side knowledge that I personally tried to analyze and integrate into my understanding of the ramming technique.
                        Here we are faced with a multifactorial phenomenon for which there is no simple answer. It can be assumed that at different times, different riders used different ramming techniques.
                        The reenactor in the photo in the article simply releases the spear when a "soft" target is hit. This is a perfectly feasible technique when attacking full-sized targets. Here is at least one option for you to stay in the saddle without a high back bow or without a saddle at all.
                        I would like to draw your attention to the fact that during the discussion you did not provide any data, links or anything at all, confirming your point of view. This directly affects the constructiveness of the dispute.
                      2. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 12: 36
                        +1
                        Dear Denis!
                        I am not a professional historian, but I am fascinated by history, especially ours and the European Middle Ages and New Times. Here I am, not in order to prove something to someone, but to learn from conversations with smart people, to systematize and supplement my knowledge. For some reason, from my communication with Anton, Mikhail, Vyacheslav Olegovich, Viktor Nikolaevich, I can get this new thing (passing it through the prism of a critical approach).
                        Communication with you, excuse me, is like communicating with the followers of the sect of Jehovah's Witnesses ...
            3. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 December 2021 09: 33
              0
              Remind about Williams' experiments. Is this what we discussed in the context of the influence or non-influence of the mass of the target on the force of impact on it?
              If so, those experiences did not impress me much. I am sure that experiments with a target having a mass comparable to the total mass of an equestrian knight would give fundamentally different results.
              As for your discussion with Viktor Nikolaevich, it is your point of view that is closer to me (XII century Western Europe and XIII - Central and Eastern), although I argue my point of view in a different way than you.
              1. CHEREDA73
                CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 11: 06
                +1
                Hello Michael!
                I read the last discussion and there you expressed doubts about the purity of the experiment. I had the same doubts.
                The experiment is simply not completed, if, of course, we are interested not only in the energy of the "striking system", but also in the impact on the rider during the collision.
                It was necessary to make a series of collisions with progressively increasing weights of the "pendulum-dynamometer" and here, as the mass of the pendulum grows, the rider will gradually begin to feel that it is more and more difficult to stay on the horse without a special saddle ...
                Figuratively speaking, one can imagine a giant billiard table and collisions of an impacting ball of constant mass and velocity (that is, the energy is always the same) with balls of different masses, more and less (the results of collisions will always be different).
                Also, I'm not sure that even Williams' maximum energy value of 200 J is correct. It looks like you can get there for 400 ...
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 27 December 2021 11: 50
                  0
                  Hello.
                  After that discussion, my opinion has not changed. Ideally, in order to measure the force with which the spear of an equestrian warrior acts on the target with one or another of his grip, it is necessary to make the goal commensurate in mass and give it a speed corresponding to the rider's speed - only in this way we will reach the maximum parameters close to the reality of the late Middle Ages.
                  The energy of a system weighing plus or minus half a ton, accelerated to a speed of plus or minus 20 km / h in a collision - hard! - with a similar system at the same speed, it will give out much more energy. And if you consider that this energy will be concentrated on the edge of the spear ...
                  Well, Newton's third law will help us. smile
                  1. CHEREDA73
                    CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 12: 06
                    0
                    Mikhail, I agree with you ...
                    Moreover, I was still at home at midnight figuring out whether stirrups were still needed or not. And it turns out that there is nothing without them, if the rider wants to stay in the saddle during oblique blows. But I leave the discussion, because I figured it out for myself and the break in the pattern proposed by Williams and the company did not work out.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 27 December 2021 12: 40
                      +1
                      Quite right - with oblique strikes, which to one degree or another were the overwhelming majority.
                      The stirrups also came in handy in order to rise when making a chopping blow from above and in order to bend in the saddle in order to reach the enemy with a sword or dodge a blow if it came to a horse cabin.
                      1. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 12: 44
                        0
                        Yes, that's right. But, for some reason, someone here wants to turn everything upside down ...
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 27 December 2021 13: 17
                        0
                        I do not think. It's just that this part of history, I mean its experimental section, began to develop massively relatively recently, so there is no consensus among researchers on many issues. For example, we can hardly imagine how the Battle of Hastings took place. The same Zhukov describes it as the horse attacks of the Normans along the Harald's housecarl formation with attempts to poke someone at a gallop with a spear. Others talk about direct attacks on the Saxon formation. The more interesting it is to debate. smile
                      3. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 13: 35
                        0
                        Yes, Mikhail, everything is so ...
                        You see, I have enough knowledge in statics, dynamics, physics, strength of materials to critically approach the topic under discussion. But, you see, it came to what it came to: "I cannot show the sources." I cant. I’m not here at work and I don’t want to turn it into work, sit at the computer all day to prove something to someone ...
                        I wish you the best in your dispute. Believe me, I will analyze everything carefully. hi
                        Tons of waste rock will go into slag, and grains of gold (valuable information) will settle on the shelf of my memory.
                        And further, I will give this information somewhere, about horror, without reference to the sources drinks
                  2. Keer
                    Keer 27 December 2021 22: 52
                    0
                    The energy of a system weighing plus or minus half a ton, accelerated to a speed of plus or minus 20 km / h in a collision - hard! - with a similar system at the same speed, it will give out much more energy. And if you consider that this energy will be concentrated on the edge of the spear ...
                    Well, there are both riders with horses - the systems are far from rigid, otherwise they would die, both would be at once. (both attacker and attacked) laughing the hardest part, the spear itself, it is orders of magnitude harder, to the point that its elasticity can be neglected. This is in my opinion. But the weight of the peak is significant.
  13. Konnick
    Konnick 26 December 2021 10: 43
    +1
    First of all, it is interesting that both Harold's warriors and William's warriors are very similar in embroidery. Actually, you cannot distinguish them, if you do not know that the army of the first fought on foot, and the soldiers of the second - on horseback.

    Traditional Viking armor and weapons. The Normans of Wilhelm, the Anglo-Saxons of Harold and the Norwegians of Harald the Severe had similar weapons like the rest of Europe. Only the chivalry that appeared in Normandy and England made its own adjustments. Harold's warriors suffered heavy losses, including horses, at the Battle of Stamford Bridge three weeks ago. Where the cavalry of the Anglo-Saxons from the knights tried for a long time to break through a kind of square in the form of a ring of foot Norwegians of Harald the Severe, being fired upon by archers and bumping into spears rested in the ground. For Harold, the battle with Harald was a Pyrrhic victory. If not for those losses, then Wilhelm would have been utterly defeated at Hastings.
  14. Konnick
    Konnick 26 December 2021 10: 47
    +4
    In general, the chain mail armor depicted on the "canvas from Bayeux" could well have been the most ordinary long-sex chain mail (clothes for the rider!) On ... lining and with slits in the front and back, like the later English coat.



    On the upper reconstruction, Byzantium Warangi time of the Battle of Hastings on the left. The same Harald Stern ten years "worked" as a Varang and and had clashes with the Norman equestrian knights, whom he successfully knocked out with the traditional weapon of the Varangs, an ax, as shown on the tapestry.

    Admins, what you did a month ago that inserting pictures has become a problem. Why have you canceled the check marks under the picture?
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 26 December 2021 12: 19
      +2
      "what did you do" is for a change. From time to time you need innovations, good or not, the question is different, so as not to get bored
  15. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 11: 49
    +2
    Quote: Undecim
    Judging by the pictorial sources, the attack with a spear in Europe before the 12th century is not known.

    Maybe it is still known, but not widely used?

    Illustration from the Golden Psalter of the St. Gallen Monastery, late 9th century.

    If a rider wants to strike with a spear, then it "asks" to be squeezed in the armpit, since only in this case a rigid structure "horse-rider-spear" is obtained (let's not forget about the bow of the saddle and stirrups). To believe that this was only thought of in the 12th century, in my opinion, is strange. It's just convenient for hitting. Well, much later, in the era of cuirasses, the hook already appeared.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 December 2021 13: 13
      +5
      There are a lot of oddities in the history of military affairs and history in general.
      For at least a thousand years, riders have been ramming in the so-called. "Sarmatian landing" without any clamping of the spear under the arm
      And for sweet
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 13: 18
        +2
        Yes, a heavy spear can also be held in this way, if the left one is not occupied with a shield!
        The source of the drawing is the ancient Russian chronicle? Or am I wrong?
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 26 December 2021 13: 25
          +3
          16th century obverse annalistic vault
          http://visualrian.ru/media/496668.html
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 13: 39
            +4
            I asked why, because I remembered one drawing, it seems, of the 19th or early 20th century, dedicated to the combat between Nevsky and Birger, and there the artist depicted Nevsky in this way holding a spear. The artist was clearly inspired by our chronicles what
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 December 2021 14: 02
              +6
              The only evidence that Birger participated in this event at all is a study of his remains, which revealed that during his lifetime the jarl received a face injury.
              1. CHEREDA73
                CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 14: 11
                +3
                Okay, not Birger, but the one who, according to legend, opposed Nevsky. In short, an evil foe wassat
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 December 2021 14: 19
                  +5
                  In theory, the expedition was to be commanded by Ulf Fasi, in 1240 he was an earl, whose direct duties included the leadership of military operations. Birger became Jarl 8 years later. In addition, there is not a single mention of the battle at the Izhora estuary in Swedish sources. In general, "the water in the cloud is dark"
                  1. CHEREDA73
                    CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 14: 30
                    +3
                    I fully agree that there are more questions than answers ...
            2. kalibr
              26 December 2021 15: 40
              +2
              Quote: CHEREDA73
              and there is an artist

              Roerich!
              1. CHEREDA73
                CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 15: 44
                +2
                Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! And then I dangle on business and at the same time lead a discussion request
                But I remember the drawing, but I don’t remember who created it.
                Thank you for adding!
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 26 December 2021 16: 40
        +3
        And for sweet

        And what's so mysterious? Chelubey holds the spear with the "old Khorasan" grip, Peresvet - with the "new Sagra" grip.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 26 December 2021 17: 48
          +2
          It's just at least unexpected to see in a document of the 16th century a variant of the "Sarmatian landing" (Iranian style in Western literature), which has been recorded since ancient times.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 26 December 2021 17: 57
            +2
            This document, by and large, is a non-specialized source, the creators of which did not set the task of a reliable description of specific combat techniques.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 26 December 2021 18: 02
              +2
              I know, but the technique is very specific and recognizable. I can't believe that the artist drew at random and hit it so well. If you used an older image, then which one. And most importantly, is it possible to consider that the Sarmatian landing was relevant even in the late Middle Ages
  16. vladcub
    vladcub 26 December 2021 12: 13
    +1
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Anton, is this a type of weapon to disperse demonstrations, non-lethal? ))

    In fact, you can kill with a pillow: he squeezed his face with a pillow and "hello to parents" (c)
    The last example I remember ... Taraki strangled with a pillow
  17. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 13: 32
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    There are a lot of oddities in the history of military affairs and history in general.
    For at least a thousand years, riders have been ramming in the so-called. "Sarmatian landing" without any clamping of the spear under the arm
    And for sweet

    A ram strike without stirrups and a saddle with a high bow will not work very well, that is, it will not work powerful. Again, it matters what size and weight the spear is in the hands. The growth of infantry defensive equipment required a more powerful spear, and a more powerful spear requires a different grip ...
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 December 2021 13: 56
      +3
      Williams and Capwell have experimented with and without different saddles.
      An Experimental Investigation of Late Medieval Combat with the Couched Lance
      The bareback and stirrup rider performed almost as well on target as the riders in the saddle with tall bows with stirrups.
      The effectiveness of the blow in their experiment was radically influenced by the Fokr. With him, the energy of the blow jumped one and a half to two times and the spears began to break like in medieval tournaments.
      Again, it matters what size and weight the spear is in the hands.

      Alas, there is too little data to draw such a conclusion.
      Even if you measure the length of the spear from the images, the thickness and material, and therefore the weight, cannot be determined.
      On Bayo's tapestry, the Normans do not hold their spears under their armpits. Whether their spears were lighter than in the 12th century is anyone's guess.
  18. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 14: 09
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    Williams and Capwell have experimented with and without different saddles.
    An Experimental Investigation of Late Medieval Combat with the Couched Lance
    The bareback and stirrup rider performed almost as well on target as the riders in the saddle with tall bows with stirrups.

    There is already a question of the purity of the experiment and the preparation of the participants.
    You cannot argue against mechanics as a science, but mechanics says that the rider must be "fixed" relative to the horse (that is, stirrups and a special saddle), and the spear must be "fixed" relative to the rider.
    Then the entire impulse of the system will be concentrated on the spearhead ...
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 December 2021 14: 22
      +2
      Well, according to the experiment, the saddle and stirrups do not "fix" the rider upon impact. the system is not rigid. Moreover, even with a fock, the efficiency of the system was 2 percent, and the spear broke further. Thus, it is impossible in principle to transmit the entire impulse through the spearhead.
      Why argue, just read Williams' article or watch an excerpt and discussion here
      https://topwar.ru/183873-avtor-katafrakty-antichnosti-sedla-kopja-tarannyj-udar-i-nikakih-stremja.html
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 14: 27
        +2
        Why, then, were special saddles made? And you could do without stirrups, right? However, for some reason they were used.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 26 December 2021 14: 36
          +4
          But this is a very interesting question.
          According to the most widespread opinion, saddles with high bows were brought to Europe by the Huns, and they relied not on ramming, but on horse archers. Moreover, reenactors note that a high back bow can lead to a lumbar injury in a ramming strike. The saddle problem and its relationship to martial practice is extremely complex.
          With stirrups, everything is much simpler - with them it is definitely easier to jump on a horse and you can climb on them when chopping with melee weapons from the saddle, including to the side. Very comfortably.
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 19: 30
            +3
            Dear Denis!
            I have carefully read the materials you recommended.
            I read it and understood it critically.
            1. Large and strong horses were used - test.
            2. The riders, who are they? Hardly professional tournament fighters.
            The difference can be as great as between a driver and a professional race car driver. There is no success here.
            3. The original method of measuring the impact energy is good for an experiment, but if the experimenter rider would hit not the target, but
            , for example, a model of an infantryman with appropriate weight characteristics, and even fixed on the surface (or at least having stops), then a rider who does not have a good rear saddle bow would fly out of the saddle like a cork (provided that the system: rider- the spear is rigidly fixed relative to each other, that is, it fails.
            In general, the experiment is interesting and it is necessary to take note of it.
            But, you should not take it as an axiom.
            Yours!
            1. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 19: 31
              +2
              Yes, and spears from pine can only be made for tournaments. War spears were made of hardwood, more durable.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 26 December 2021 19: 45
                0
                We discussed it once. For combat, first of all, an ash spear appears.
                1. CHEREDA73
                  CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 19: 50
                  +1
                  That's right!
            2. Engineer
              Engineer 26 December 2021 20: 20
              +1
              Williams' experience assessed only one parameter - the impact on the target.
              1. Why wasn't the full size mockup chosen?
              Because it is important that the impact is simulated, not the push. A heavy target will not have time to bounce. It will be carried forward and the spear will drag it in violation of the strike condition. Williams wrote about this in the article and additionally confirmed it when I asked this question on academia. edu.
              2. For the experiment, we used, among other things, replicas of medieval saddles - an English and Burgundy combat saddle with high back bows. At the same time, the English saddle does not increase the impact energy in comparison with the version without a saddle at all (the result is even worse), and the Burgundian one, although it does, does not fundamentally.
              3. Do you need a high back bow to stay in the saddle after your hit?
              I'm not at all sure. The reenactor from the legio V Macedonica club told me that the Roman saddle holds well on impact, but it has no back bow at all, and the rear horns do not rest on the lower back.
              4. A professional tournament fighter, if he exists, would quite possibly have knocked out a longer result, but it is logical to expect a proportional increase for all options, including bareback at all. That is, the refutation of the noticeable connection between the saddle structure and the impact energy would most likely remain in force.
              4. Williams and Capwell studied the surviving spears, and they were all from conifers. The thesis that in the Middle Ages war spears were made of hardwood, and tournament and battle spears were different, you will have to substantiate yourself.
              Ash spears are mentioned, but for antiquity.
              1. CHEREDA73
                CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 22: 17
                0
                Well, yes, I understand ...
                The justification for the thesis is that I cite a historical source, and preferably two or three independent ...
                That's good then.
                I think that simplicity is enough for every sage:
                The spear (spear shaft) should be light and strong. Ash or other similar hardwoods are best suited to these conditions. Conifers (pine) have much worse characteristics. Accordingly, if you need a "fragile" spear for a tournament, then a pine tree is good. To use it for a fight means giving a handicap to the opponent.
  19. depressant
    depressant 26 December 2021 16: 04
    +2
    An interesting detail.
    In the tenth or eleventh century, to call a Norman French was to insult him. The Normans considered the Franks to be a bunch of weak-willed Parisians who deserved a kick in the ass from Normandy. They say it was like calling a Scotsman an Englishman. The converse was also true. Has the situation changed since then? Almost not at all! But by now everyone has learned to tolerate hypocrisy.
    As for Wilhelm, the only thing he could not resist was hunting and tricks. At the table he never drank more than three glasses of wine and - just think - never got drunk! Is this a Frenchman? wassat )))
    And what is a Frenchman without a sense of humor? And Wilhelm had no humor at all! But he had an unsurpassed ability to masterly insult people, especially those who recklessly paid attention to his low origin.
    In general, a true Norman)))
    Well, that’s true, by the way.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 26 December 2021 16: 56
      +3
      But he had an unsurpassed ability to masterly insult people, especially those who recklessly paid attention to his low origin.
      All in all, a true Norman

      Real children, these Normans, in comparison with the tough guys from Languedoc! I remember that in 1303 one such proud native of the foothills of Pirineus, went to the face of the Pope himself, because the pontiff called him a Cathar offspring!
      1. depressant
        depressant 26 December 2021 17: 16
        +2
        As far as I remember, they called me Qatar, about a year and a half ago. I said nothing, I didn’t know then who the Cathars were)))
        But Wilhelm ...
        So he took it into his head to marry, having contrived to live up to 24 of his bastard years. To get higher, I chose Maya,
        daughter of the Count of Flanders and granddaughter of the reigning king of the Franks.
        However, Maya (according to another historical version - Matilda) considered herself humiliated and publicly announced that she would not marry a bastard!
        And what did our Wilhelm do?
        Never letting any person insult his mother, Wilhelm jumped on his horse and waved the 400 km separating Normandy and Lille, where the hapless girl lived. To do this, he had to cross the Seine valley, leave behind the swampy shores of the Somme and deepen into the potentially dangerous possessions of the King of the Franks. Several days of non-stop racing (presumably, he still changed horses), William, arriving in Lille, immediately burst into the castle of the Count of Flanders, threw Matilda on the floor and tore her dress with spurs. After that, the arrogance of the young lady disappeared somewhere. She suddenly realized that she had met the "owner" and agreed to the wedding
        What, huh? wassat )))
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 26 December 2021 17: 23
          +1
          I know this story
          1. depressant
            depressant 26 December 2021 17: 29
            0
            I know this story


            About Matilda?)))
            Do you know what their life together was like next?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 December 2021 17: 34
              +1
              In love and harmony. In the intervals between childbirth, Matilda supported all her husband's undertakings in every possible way.
              1. depressant
                depressant 26 December 2021 17: 56
                +1
                love and harmony ...

                Ha-ha! wassat )))
                Let's leave aside the question of how Matilda's dad looked with interest at a muscular, tall bandit who already had several won battles behind him, he saw his prospects! And also let us bypass the disagreement of the Holy See to marriage, for Matilda and Wilhelm are cousins ​​and cousins. All obstacles were bypassed, prospects won, and a joint life of people began, each of whom had a frenzied character. Matilda was in no way inferior in this to her husband! And once, in order to show others who is still the boss in the house, Wilhelm, twisting Matilda's hair around his hand, wire her along the stone pavement - so that everyone can see!
                But their marriage really made women jealous. Wilhelm was monogamous and never cheated on his wife. Certainly not French! wassat )))
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 December 2021 18: 06
                  +1
                  Does this deny what I said?
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 26 December 2021 18: 10
                    +1
                    Does this deny what I said?


                    You have put me in a quandary, from which I see only one way out. I would never forgive someone who tried to pull my hair. But, as they say, each time has its own songs.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 26 December 2021 18: 19
                      +2
                      There were even worse plots! Do you remember about Lady Godiva? Bike, of course, but someone suggested this scenario ...
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 18: 33
                        +1
                        Do you remember about Lady Godiva? Bike ...

                        How not to remember? I remember remembering it not so long ago. The wife of the overlord of Coventry, who imposed an unbearable tax on the population to please Edward the Confessor. But Lady Godiva was meek! Although ... Sometimes the meekness of walls breaks, and the fury about them just breaks his own forehead.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 18: 39
                        +1
                        An hour and a half ago I offered you one more story, with far-reaching historical consequences ... Its hero, by the way, is probably known to you.
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 19: 40
                        +3
                        An hour and a half ago I offered you another bike, with far-reaching historical consequences ...

                        Are you talking about the incident that preceded the beginning of the de-Christianization of the bourgeoisie through the "Avignon sitting"? After which it was no longer the holy throne that began to indicate when and from whom what taxes to take, but the kings and the people in this matter moved on to free bargaining with each other.
                        Yes, a certain incident then preceded this historical reversal. Rather, it was his offspring.
                        In Italy, to the overly arrogant Pope, who did not catch the spirit of the times, the French king sent troops under the command of Guillaume Nogaret, who came from the Cathar family. Nogara was joined by the personal enemy of the Pope, a representative of the influential Italian aristocracy, Schiarra Colonna.
                        These people captured the Pope at his residence in Anagni. And during the negotiations, Skiarra Colonna struck the Pope on the cheek with his hand, which was an unthinkable sacrilege. Three days later, the followers of the Holy See released the Pope, but he soon died. Either he gnawed the veins in his arms, or he smashed his head against the wall - according to rumors. I could not survive the humiliation.
                        But an Italian slapped him in the face.
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 20: 11
                        +2
                        Bravo, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                        But I am more impressed by the version with Nogare
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 20: 23
                        +1
                        But I am more impressed by the version with Nogare

                        And everything could be there. Nogare left, and he didn't care what it was in Italy they would decide who was the author of the slap in the face. And this Colonna - a local - beat the Pope, did not beat the Pope, but how to refuse the "honor"? He looked after the leaving Nogare, turned to the crowd and said: "I beat!"
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 20: 36
                        +1
                        There is a long history of confrontation, judging by the fact that even after the death of Boniface, Nogaret insisted on his condemnation, for Guillaume this state matter turned into a personal plane
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 20: 57
                        +1
                        for Guillaume, this state matter turned into a personal plane

                        Even so? The aristocracy and the bourgeoisie together were the second estate after the first - the clergy. They wanted to overthrow the power of the first estate, and, one must think, Nogare was the spokesman for the hopes of the entire second estate and acted as Wilhelm once acted, who went to finish off the enemy in his lair, overcoming all obstacles. In this case, despite the physical death of Boniface VIII. Because the enemy was not a specific person, but the idea of ​​the superiority of the clergy over secular society. So a slap in the face, one might say, marked the beginning of the early Renaissance.
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 21: 14
                        +1
                        They wanted to overthrow the rule of the first estate,
                        By no means, at the beginning of the XIV century this is impossible in principle. The reason is banal to the point of impossibility - the chronic deficit of the royal budget. Actually, all of Philip's actions during the last 15 years of his reign were aimed at combating this scourge.
                      9. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 21: 47
                        +2
                        Well, let's see how it all started.

                        The French Philip IV the Handsome and the Englishman Edward I started a dispute over the continental territories, which resulted in preparations for a war between England and France. But war requires money, which means that each of the kings had to impose taxes on their subjects, including the clergy. The amount of taxes on the church was not coordinated with Boniface VIII, who, like a rock, stood on the position of the superiority of spiritual authority over secular authority. A papal bull was issued, expressly forbidding the secular authorities, without the consent of the Pope, to tax the church in their states on pain of excommunication. In response to the bull, an angry Philip IV convened the States General, which, together with the French clergy, not only condemned the bull of Boniface VIII, but also decided that the Pope must appear in France for a church trial on charges of heresy and serious crimes, including sodomy.
                        Boniface, naturally, did not appear. And then Nogare was sent after him. What happened there is really a mystery. In general, everything very quickly ended with the death of Boniface. After him, Benedict XI became Pope, whom death overtook seven months after his accession to the holy throne. And the reason is poisoning, in which, according to rumors, the ubiquitous Guillaume Nogaret was again involved. These two deaths horrified the clergy so much that the next Pope, which became Clement V, already meekly submitted to Philip IV. And to make it more convenient to control the holy throne with the help of forceful pressure, it, previously protected by the Alps, was transferred to Avignon.
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 22: 00
                        +2
                        It's like that. But in addition to this, there was also the consistent expulsion of the Lombardians and Jews from the kingdom, with the confiscation of property, the minting of a billon coin, an increase in the tax burden that led to the uprising of the Parisians, the destruction of the Templars. Everything was tied to one goal of replenishing the impoverished treasury. The funniest thing came out of the templars
                      11. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 22: 05
                        0
                        And what about the templars? I don’t remember.
                      12. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 22: 18
                        0
                        At one time (I don’t remember the year), Phillip ordered the royal treasury to be deposited with the Templars. I do not know the motives behind this act, perhaps as a pledge. When the order was defeated, only 700 thousand livres were found in the granaries of the New Temple, and about 300 more were scraped up according to the preceptors, which in total amounted to only 1,2 of the annual income of the kingdom! No, of course, they still counted on finding an archive, which in itself was of great value, but the papers, like the money, evaporated
                      13. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 22: 40
                        0
                        This means ... I met the opinion that these guys managed to transport the money almost to Russia.
                      14. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 22: 52
                        0
                        By and large, it doesn't mean anything. Money, if any, could have surfaced anywhere, after all, the Order of the Temple is the first and largest logistics holding at that time. But somehow there was no financial strengthening of any of the countries or organizations in the first quarter of a century. And then there were disasters: famine, the Bardi financial crisis, earthquakes and the plague holocaust, superimposed on the beginning of the Hundred Years War.
                      15. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 23: 10
                        0
                        Interesting topic. If possible, you can return to it tomorrow)))
                      16. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 23: 13
                        0
                        Oh sure. The only unpleasant moment, the Internet is bad at work, I will answer whenever possible.
                      17. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 20: 39
                        +1
                        By the way, we must pay tribute, among the few positive qualities of Philip the Handsome, in the first place is the ability to select personnel
                      18. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 21: 01
                        0
                        ability to select personnel

                        Yes, Nogare was his closest advisor.
                      19. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 21: 29
                        0
                        And Marigny. But unlike Angerrand, Guillaume remains a mystery to me, in terms of personal incentives for such a loyal service to the king.
                      20. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 22: 19
                        0
                        Well, how is faithful service? I had to. After all, Pope Benedict XI was going to excommunicate Guillaume from the church. Imagine what would happen. End of a successful career at court. Any career, actually. Hence - the hasty destruction of the now Benedict XI. Like it or not, I had to. He took care of himself, but looks like zealous service to the king. Interests are different, the ultimate goal coincided.
                      21. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 22: 30
                        0
                        So he excommunicated him, but this did not affect Nogare's career in any way.
                      22. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 22: 36
                        0
                        And when did you manage? I didn't know anything about it. And even if he excommunicated ... Nogare is a sectarian.
                      23. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 22: 38
                        0
                        Himself - no, the parents of the Cathars and the grandfather was convicted of Albigensianism
                      24. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 22: 46
                        0
                        Maybe these eternal threats of excommunication from the church became one of the reasons that prompted the population to overthrow the absolute power of the clergy. The holy fathers were overwhelmed. At the royal level, excommunication is negligible. At the level of an ordinary bourgeois - hardly. And ... That reminds me of something.
                      25. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 23: 01
                        0
                        Lyudmila Yakovlevna, there are still two hundred years before Luther ...
                      26. depressant
                        depressant 26 December 2021 23: 13
                        0
                        But preparations were already underway. The ferment of minds that change mentality takes centuries.
                      27. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 23: 15
                        0
                        This is not preparation, but on the whole you are thinking in the right direction, this is a systemic crisis of the Middle Ages.
                      28. Liam
                        Liam 26 December 2021 20: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: depressant
                        troops were sent under the command of Guillaume Nogaret

                        Nogare was a diplomat, not a military man, and he had no troops.


                        Quote: depressant
                        Nogara was joined by the Pope's personal enemy, a representative of the influential Italian aristocracy, Schiarra Colonna

                        Quite the opposite, Nogare joined Colonna and his squad.
                        Quote: depressant
                        And during the negotiations, Skiarra Colonna struck the Pope with his hand on the cheek

                        There was no physical assault, this is nothing more than a legend.

                        Otherwise, everything is correct. Almost)
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 26 December 2021 20: 01
          +2
          Quote: depressant
          Never letting any person insult his mother, Wilhelm jumped on his horse and waved the 400 km separating Normandy and Lille, where the hapless girl lived.

          It is very reminiscent of one episode in our ancient history. A certain Rogneda Rogvolodovna, the same in response to the matchmaking from the Novgorod prince, had the imprudence to declare: - I don’t want to take off a robichich’s shoes!
          With about the same consequences. True Equal-to-the-Apostles Vladimir cannot be called one-man :)))
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 December 2021 20: 10
            +1
            The main point of reference is to choose the right one. If from the baptism of Vladimir and the acquisition of a wife, Anna, then a completely different person.
            1. depressant
              depressant 26 December 2021 22: 00
              +1
              Sergey, you, as always, are fundamental. And I am very upset. Our Sergei Vladimirovich, my friend Seryozha, was again sent to the ban. Wrote Goodbye. How to survive this grief, I just do not know. God forbid, the ban is eternal.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 26 December 2021 23: 46
                0
                How many warnings were there? I think there is always the possibility of "reincarnation".
                1. depressant
                  depressant 27 December 2021 14: 38
                  +1
                  It turned out. Locked in the bath until January 15th, steamed ..
    2. CHEREDA73
      CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 17: 21
      +1
      "A gang of weak-willed Parisians" good
      The Normans were lucky that Clovis did not hear them ... "weak-willed franc" ...
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 17: 22
        +1
        Well, he just died, what can I do ... laughing
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 17: 30
        +1
        Clovis could not appreciate the insults, for he was a sycamore.
        1. CHEREDA73
          CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 17: 32
          +1
          Pardon me, sicambre is a new word for me ...
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 17: 37
            +2
            Yeah, translated into the language of native aspens - it's like we have Drevlyans, glades, Vyatichi, Dregovichi ...
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 December 2021 18: 01
              +1
              That's right, groups of people with similar languages ​​and cultures, but do not consider themselves a single whole
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 December 2021 17: 37
            +2
            It happens, Eugene, just open Wiki and see the article about Clovis
            1. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 17: 39
              +2
              Already bridged the gap good
            2. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 17: 41
              +2
              Although he is a sycamber, he is all one franc ...
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 December 2021 17: 44
                +2
                They were called so in Rome and Byzantium, this is not a self-name at that time
                1. CHEREDA73
                  CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 18: 05
                  +1
                  Thank you, Anton, for the sycamber! I somehow never got to the early Germanic tribes in my whole life! And now the moment has come!
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 26 December 2021 18: 14
                    0
                    Please, Eugene!
                    In fact, I am not very strong in the era of the Dark Ages, I was just separately interested in the history of the spread of Christianity in Europe. Well, this trinity: Clovis, Hordechilda and Remigius, always come out on top.
                    1. CHEREDA73
                      CHEREDA73 26 December 2021 18: 18
                      +1
                      Well, I don’t have any complexes, if I don’t know. You can always ask.
                      Self-esteem will not suffer!
                      I recently tortured connoisseurs of pistols with my questions, Viktor Nikolaevich enlightened me yes
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 December 2021 18: 23
                        +1
                        Well, I don’t have any complexes, if I don’t know. You can always ask.
                        It is right! It's not a shame not to know, it's a shame not to want to know!
                        I generally adhere to the principle of Socrates.
    3. Konnick
      Konnick 26 December 2021 17: 26
      +2
      And what is a Frenchman without a sense of humor? And Wilhelm had no humor at all! But he had an unsurpassed ability to masterly insult people, especially those who recklessly paid attention to his low origin.

      Low? About whom? If he was formally a vassal of the Frenchman Henry I, then this does not mean low origin. By the way, there is indirect evidence of the friendly relations of William the Conqueror with the Queen of France Anna Yaroslavna, it was he who, according to one of the versions, saw her home. In general, these events resonate with our history, another daughter of Yaroslav the Wise, the queen of Norway, became a widow after the battle between the troops of her husband Harald Hardrad at Stamford Bridge with the army of Harold three weeks before the Battle of Hastings. Harold's daughter Geeta Wessex became the wife of Vladimir Monomakh, the grandson of Yaroslav the Wise, and Yuri Dolgoruky was her son. Some relatives around fellow
  20. Sertorius
    Sertorius 26 December 2021 16: 22
    0
    "William is here!" - shouts Eustace Bolonsky

    Eustace-Alex laughing
    Eustache de Boulogne Eustache of Boulogne
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 26 December 2021 17: 07
      0
      And in general he is Eustachy
      1. Sertorius
        Sertorius 27 December 2021 02: 16
        -1
        No. Estache. Sori for my French.)))
  21. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 27 December 2021 22: 28
    0

    4. Williams and Capwell studied the surviving spears, and they were all from conifers. The thesis that in the Middle Ages war spears were made of hardwood, and tournament and battle spears were different, you will have to substantiate yourself.
    Ash spears are mentioned, but for antiquity.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://abbeymedievalfestival.com/2016/06/one-thing-jousting-tournament-needs-wood/&ved=2ahUKEwiX7fih0oT1AhUXh_0HHZUaAqIQFnoECDAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw39MVaenABudbEj5ghoKw41
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://janetpanic.com/what-kind-of-wood-are-lances-made-of/&ved=2ahUKEwiX7fih0oT1AhUXh_0HHZUaAqIQFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0ey8GZitZzHChNSfQFmqA
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://janetpanic.com/what-kind-of-wood-are-lances-made-of/&ved=2ahUKEwiX7fih0oT1AhUXh_0HHZUaAqIQFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0ey8GZitZzHChNSfQFmqAj
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-lance/&ved=2ahUKEwiX7fih0oT1AhUXh_0HHZUaAqIQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3w6NyJCsDBKTwn6vrGvT1m
    I hope the thesis is substantiated?
    The first four English-language links that came across:
    Everywhere it is said about the difference between tournament and combat lance, about a different tree (for combat, usually ash) these are not sources of the 11-15 centuries, but quite convincingly ...
  22. alexey sidykin
    alexey sidykin 18 February 2022 13: 00
    -1
    To be honest, at that time, lamellar shells had not yet fallen into disuse. So at least half of the warriors flaunted them. For they were cheaper than chain mail. The sword in the photo is from the 12th century, but not like 10-11 Anglo-Saxon warriors, like the Normans, are still armed with Carolingians.