Problems of combat training of the Red Army

195
Problems of combat training of the Red Army

Since 1939, a sharp increase in the number of the Red Army begins, and this growth was accompanied by a drop in training and discipline, however, as in any other army in the world in such conditions.

For example, in July 1940, in the city of Ulyanovsk, a 154 rifle division of 3 was created, headed by brigade commander Fokanov. In April 000, she transferred to the staff number 1941/4 - 120 people, in May she received 5 more reservists and in early June began to move to the West. As a result, the division received 900 recruits for 6 regular soldiers and commanders. At the same time, in general, the division showed itself well, but ...



However, the problems of the infantry were not the main ones.

And instead of a heart, a fiery motor


There were always enough flight enthusiasts in Russia, young people were eager to go to schools, but the rapid growth of the Air Force led to a deterioration in pilot training, and the formation of a large number of regiments and divisions - to a drop in discipline.

As an example - order No. 0168 dated 29.06.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX:

The crew of the SB plane of the 31st high-speed bomber regiment consisting of senior lieutenant S.P. Lebedev, junior lieutenant I.K. Kuznetsov and junior platoon commander G.D. During a training flight in a closed cockpit near his airfield, he lost his bearings, flew over the state border and landed in Memel.

The scandal in the conditions of that time was epic - not only was it a violation, but also to the airfield of a potential "partner", with whom everything was difficult, and in the conditions of a world war. The reasons are prosaic.

The investigation established:

1. Senior Lieutenant Lebedev did not properly prepare for the upcoming training flight and was not checked before this squadron commander, Captain Zorin.
2. The plane before departure was taken by a trained pilot, and not by senior lieutenant Lebedev, as it should be according to instructions.
3. The intercom on the plane was faulty.
4. The departure was made by Lebedev with an old, tattered map, on which the line of the state border of Lithuania with the Memel region was not drawn; junior lieutenant Kuznetsov left his map on the ground.
5. Having lost his bearings, Lebedev displayed a panic unworthy of the commander of the Red Army and began to wander randomly in arbitrary courses; the worst was his decision to land, knowing that this was a foreign airfield.

The commander and navigator of the regiment did not fulfill their official duties, and the young pilot, frightened, sat down on the nearest site. The punishment is serious - the SB crew went to court, the squadron commander and the navigator lost one asterisk.

This is understandable: how the Germans could perceive the SB over their airfield, God knows, they could shoot down, and then what?

The Germans, by the way, also show sloppiness: a Soviet bomber went out unhindered and sat down at their airbase.

In general, there was little fun in the Air Force:

It is established that the main causes of accidents are:
1. Extremely low discipline, laxity and disorganization in the Air Force units of the Red Army.
A large number of drunks with fights, unauthorized absences and other immoral offenses incompatible with the rank of a commander, a Red Army soldier, characterize a low state of discipline and give rise to accidents.
2. The formulation of combat training in many shelves is unsatisfactory.
The planning of combat training is carried out "out of time and space", which is a consequence of the lack of knowledge of squadrons' preparedness and leads to the formulation of impossible and unrealistic tasks.
3. Navigator training in most parts, and especially in the fighter, is at a low level.
4. As a mass phenomenon - poor knowledge of the material part of the flight and technical personnel. The pilots and some of the commanders have little knowledge of the data of their aircraft and engine ...
In one regiment Zapovo, an aircraft reception and delivery book was found, in which the pilot signed the adopted car ten days in advance.
5. A large number of breakdowns, accidents and disasters occur during takeoffs and landings of aircraft.

And the August 1940 order speaks about this in detail and point by point. Moreover, he proposes remedial measures in detail and point by point.

But the measures did not work, and the arrest of Rychagov did nothing - with the growth of the Air Force and the need to master and study as soon as possible, there could be no other, who there would not have put their signatures under the orders. There was no time to study, no one to teach, the pilots were making careers simply impetuous, ready-made personnel - a terrible shortage.

Armor is strong


Directive No. 15119-c of September 27, 1940:

... The newly formed headquarters of the 6th mechanized corps, the 4th tank divisions, 9th and 10th aviation divisions. Formation commanders and higher-ranking chiefs still pay little attention and do little to prepare and put together their headquarters. The number of exercises conducted over the summer with headquarters is small ...

Tactically, too, not very:

The preparation of tank units and subunits in tactical and firepower relations is mediocre. For the better, the actions of flamethrower tanks stand out ... The tanks involved in the exercises acted well (165 TB), but during the attack they broke away from the infantry, being carried away by solving long-range tasks.

The Far East is no better:

The main flaws in the preparation of tank units:
1) inability to interact with small infantry units in the foreground;
2) insufficiently firm control of the platoon commanders of their subunits;
3) tank crews are not trained to observe the battlefield.

Although, in general, there are much fewer claims to tankers than to pilots. According to the same directive, the ZOVO pilots managed to dive into their positions during the exercises, and they were able to carry out successful bombing after preliminary training on this particular object.

The tankers had other problems after all: if you regularly reorganize the subunits, first removing the mechanized corps, then replacing the brigades with divisions and re-forming the mechanized corps in a new way, we will get a management crisis.

He came out at the end of 1940, and in the year 1941 it only got worse - the mechanized corps of the second wave of the 1941 formation were pulled up ...

god of War


Improving the training of command personnel and staffs of ground and anti-aircraft artillery is not given due attention.
Most of the units do not have a system, plans and programs for the training of command personnel and staffs. At best, planning is done on monthly schedules. The subject of the classes is random and therefore does not provide a consistent build-up of the commander's knowledge and skills. Self-study is usually not organized. Some units have not conducted command training at all over the past three months.
The training of leaders and the quality of training continue to remain low, especially in terms of firearms and artillery training. The commanders of platoons, batteries and divisions do not know well the theory of shooting, shooting rules, and do not have stable training skills. The senior and higher command staff of the artillery takes very little part in the direct training of the commanders of battalions, batteries and platoons. Combined arms commanders do not control the training of artillery command personnel.

If we take specifically on the western districts, then the picture is sad:

Checking the shooting and artillery training of command personnel using simulation equipment showed the following results:
PribOVO - the command personnel of four artillery regiments were checked by ground artillery, all of them received a bad rating; one regiment and five divisions were tested in anti-aircraft artillery, all received a bad rating.
ZAPOVO - the command personnel of five artillery regiments were checked for ground artillery, of which four received a bad rating and only one was mediocre.
ODVO - the command staff of three artillery regiments was checked for ground artillery, of which one received a bad and two a mediocre assessment; one regiment and five divisions were tested in anti-aircraft artillery, of which only two divisions received a mediocre rating, the rest poor.

The actual reasons are given by the same order dated February 14, 1941:

Inspection of divisional headquarters on the outskirts of the field showed the poor training of staff commanders in their specialty and the inability of divisional commanders to organize the work of their headquarters. Divisional headquarters, in their present state, are more of a chancellery than a real governing body. Commanders of all grades have very little interest in the training of their headquarters, meanwhile in divisional headquarters, as a rule, there are young command personnel who do not have even a year's work experience in their positions.

The reason is highlighted in black - a large number of young and recruited personnel who, even if they wanted to, did not know how to organize full-fledged work. There were only four months left before the war ... At the same time, in addition to personnel problems, there are purely material problems:

Material support for the combat training of artillery units is uneven. Units in the districts: the Baltic, Odessa, North Caucasian, Transcaucasian and Western districts are poorly provided, in which there are few teaching aids, training devices and shells. The condition and maintenance of the materiel of weapons, instruments and equipment is satisfactory. The repair of tractors, vehicles and instruments is poorly carried out.

All together it sounds like a reason for a long work or a sentence in the event of a war in the near future.

This is not to mention communications - in the same order, the requirement to study fire control by radio using command tables by May 1, which in 1940 the commanders simply did not know how to do.

Tactic


Battle formations in an offensive battle have not been worked out at all. There is great crowding and disorder in the movement of the infantry, often the latter comes in a crowd; heavy machine guns move in the front lines of the infantry, constantly change positions and actually do not support it with their fire; anti-tank guns and individual escort guns, rolled by hand, lag behind the infantry; control with the beginning of the offensive is lost, the interaction of the battle formations of the infantry with the means supporting them is disrupted.

It would be possible not to continue further, only this is enough for defeat (by the way, hello to those who believe in Stalin's plans to attack Germany, here at least it would be better not to move in a crowd to teach), but for the rest, that NP:

Commanders do not know how to choose their place for a command post: they are usually located within the lines of battle formation, depriving themselves of the opportunity to observe the entire battle formation and being in danger of being killed at the first enemy fire.

And what about intelligence:

As a rule, the advancing battle formations do not have combat intelligence agencies (reconnaissance patrols) and guarding units ahead of them. Flank surveillance and flank guards are absent, making the formation very sensitive to the flanks.

What's the connection:

The applied control methods are primitive. Signaling is not practiced, and there are few signaling devices in the army and they are very monotonous. The liaison service is not established, and they do not know how to use it.

And as for such a thing as mobilization readiness, a separate order number 83 is dedicated to it:

An irresponsible attitude and self-removal from the leadership of mobilization work on the part of commanders and chiefs of staff of some military units, formations and gross violation of my orders No. 127 134 and No. 0130 1940

There are many orders: from combat training to discipline. There was just order with her, and any hazing was persecuted extremely harshly, and an example of this is Order No. 88:

According to the report of a member of the Military Council of the Trans-Baikal Military District, in the 10th construction battalion there was an unacceptable fact of distortion of the Disciplinary Regulations, expressed in assault on the part of certain command personnel.

Two cases of assault, the commissioner went to court, the company commander who hit the soldier lost his star. Moreover, judging by the level of decision-making - the People's Commissar of Defense, a case atypical for the Red Army of that time and not an ordinary one, since the scandal reached such a level. Disciplinary problems, unlike others, were just solvable.

Generally


In general, the country's leadership and comrade Tymoshenko kept their finger on the pulse, carried out checks and revealed shortcomings. Everything possible was done to fix them, but it is basically impossible to fix the problem of lack of specialists quickly. Especially in the lower-middle tier, where the number of full-time positions far outstripped existing opportunities. It is not for nothing that the most problems in the Air Force are in the fastest growing branch of the armed forces, where normal development before the war went on even for less than a decade.

Nevertheless, by the beginning of the war, thanks to intensive training, some of the problems had been mitigated, some had been resolved, staff training had been adjusted, and the governing documents had been replaced with more relevant ones.

In general, the work of the Timoshenko-Zhukov tandem is underestimated by historians, it was in 1940-1941 that their efforts revealed the existing problems and began work to eliminate the shortcomings. Another such year and the Red Army would have become completely different. But the war fell on a difficult period of structural changes and the development of combat experience, and the work had to be completed amid the roar of cannon fire.
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  1. +11
    2 December 2021 05: 42
    There was no time to learn, no one to teach

    Yes, that's how it was. We had a teacher who graduated from some machine-tool technical school in 1940 and, on a Komsomol ticket, was drafted into the Red Army, into aviation. But before getting into the regiment, he was sent to the courses of aviation technicians, the duration of which was, I'm afraid to be mistaken, but something about three months. After that, he was awarded the rank of junior lieutenant and was appointed to the post of a link technician.

    It is quite clear that he turned out to be a technician, like a bullet, but his technical education and the relatively simple design of aircraft saved him, which at that time were no more difficult than a collective farm sheaf binder, which a person who knows in which hand to hold a screwdriver cannot was a particularly difficult matter. That is, everything was studied "in the course of the play" ... I think this happened in other branches of the military ...

    PS If the war began two years later, there would not have been such a defeat as it was in 1941. I am sure we would have had well-trained personnel ...
    1. +4
      2 December 2021 05: 54
      If only ... it was what it was.
      Years go by, there is no one to ask how it was then .... but there was something different, from an EXTREME NECESSITY, to, perhaps, utter foolishness!
      1. -3
        2 December 2021 06: 20
        Remember how Major Gavrilov was indignant before the NKVD officer that there were too many civilians and soldiers in the Bret fortress ... and the exit from the fortress was the same and that narrow ... and if the enemy clogs it up there will be a mass of killed so it happened ... take people outside the fortress to the camps ... smile this is the alphabet.
        1. +5
          2 December 2021 09: 15
          Remember how Major Gavrilov was indignant before the NKVD officer that there were too many civilians and soldiers in the Bret fortress ... and the exit from the fortress was the same and that narrow ... and if the enemy clogs it up there will be a mass of killed so it happened ... people to take outside the fortress to the camps ... smile this is the alphabet.

          This is one of the post-war, embedded in our minds, thoughts - that it was difficult to get out of the Brest Fortress.

          Fortresses are not built in order to break out of them and camp near them, but to defend, being outside their walls.
          1. +8
            2 December 2021 13: 21
            As a fortress by the beginning of World War II, it no longer met n what requirements, it was for the most part a place of deployment of units - no one was planning to defend in it
            1. +1
              2 December 2021 17: 30
              As a fortress by the beginning of World War II, it no longer met n what requirements, it was for the most part a place of deployment of units - no one was planning to defend in it

              And what met the requirements, pure field? It was quite possible to use it as a strong point in the defense structure.
              Another thing is that no one planned to defend themselves. winked
          2. Eug
            0
            2 January 2022 17: 15
            No one has canceled the prefields of fortresses and URs, and their presence presupposes certain opportunities for maneuver and, as a result, entry and exit.
        2. +5
          2 December 2021 09: 44
          The order for this was sent, in the fortress there were supposed to be 2 battalions, the rest should be nominated according to plans in envelopes in the commanders' safes. Pavlov did not bring him to his subordinates.
        3. +5
          2 December 2021 11: 27
          everything was simple enough. people and equipment to place was simply nowhere. ALL suitable buildings, including former prisons and stables, were occupied for the placement of l / s in the Western Military District. and still not enough. part of it was already placed in an "open field" without any "conclusions to the camps"
      2. +3
        2 December 2021 07: 21
        Recently there was an article by one pilot about his relations with political officers ... About today's affairs ... "A large number of drunkenness with fights, unauthorized absences and other immoral misdeeds incompatible with the rank of commander, a Red Army soldier, characterize a low state of discipline and give rise to accidents." Everything is one to one, changes are minimal!
        1. +5
          2 December 2021 07: 48
          Quote: kalibr
          Everything is one to one, changes are minimal!

          Not quite so, or rather a lie.
          It seems that this article goes, so to speak, as a "makeweight", to BEZ's "memoirs"
          Quote: kalibr
          About today's business ..

          What are you speaking about ? what are the current affairs?
          Today, the army and the Air Force are completely different, you would have seen the current planes and the current officers of the Air Force, you would have admired, the Air Force has never been stationed in Penza, so I suggest you go somewhere to Chelyabinsk, it is not far away, look personally, you will gain impressions.
          1. -3
            2 December 2021 08: 18
            You re-read the article indicated ... About political politicians ... drunkenness, horse kidnapping ... There are many things ... non-statutory!
            1. +4
              2 December 2021 08: 26
              Quote: kalibr
              You re-read the article indicated ... About political politicians ... drunkenness, horse kidnapping ... There are many things ... non-statutory!

              Why is there a horse, that's when ...... the tundra, the political officer in the bushes in ambush, drinking vodka with two icemen, throwing a bottle into the bushes and, from there, the political officer got out with a bloody head - this is already serious.
              Quote: kalibr
              There is a lot ... non-statutory!

              unbelievable!
              1. -3
                2 December 2021 08: 45
                Quote: bober1982
                Why is there a horse

                And there was a horse ...
                Yes, that's right - the lieutenant drove a horse with a cart to transport his comrades to the place of gathering on alert. There was a lot ...
                1. 0
                  2 December 2021 08: 47
                  Quote: Bez 310
                  Yes, that's right - the lieutenant drove a horse with a cart to transport comrades to the meeting place on alarm

                  Now with a cart, and not just a horse.
                  1. -5
                    2 December 2021 08: 50
                    Quote: bober1982
                    Now with a cart, and not just a horse.

                    What's the difference? Calm down already, I understand that you would never have done this, you served in another Army.
                    1. +2
                      2 December 2021 08: 53
                      You would have installed a machine gun on the cart, and from this cart you could "wet" political officers
                2. +5
                  2 December 2021 13: 53
                  Quote: Bez 310
                  There were a lot of things ...

                  Therefore, the attitude of "practicing" historians to memoirs is very complex. On the one hand, like the memory of a "participant", on the other - "fishing and hunting" folklore about pike eyes that do not fit into a mug ... laughing
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. +13
                2 December 2021 09: 02
                Quote: bober1982
                kalibr
                About political commissars ... booze, horse kidnapping ... There is a lot of things ... non-statutory!

                Yes ... drunkenness in the army ... Who would have thought ... Whether it is with the tsar-father - sober-minded miracle heroes, under the command of the most intelligent officers and the wisest / most talented generals.
                The fact that the army of any country in the world is a special social group, or, if you like, an environment where it is possible, in principle, everything is a revelation for someone? A huge number of armed people, limited in civil rights, but aimed at a forceful confrontation and diligently against this confrontation of trainees - what do you want from them? So that they can play goodies in their free time?
                1. 0
                  2 December 2021 09: 11
                  Quote: Moore
                  The fact that the army of any country in the world is a special social group, or, if you like, an environment where possible, in principle everything

                  Any army is a state within a state, with its own laws.
                  1. +7
                    2 December 2021 12: 18
                    Quote: bober1982

                    Any army is a state within a state, with its own laws.

                    Any army is a parasitic (producing nothing and requiring constant infusions) organization, the effectiveness of which is finally clear only during wars, which occur quite rarely. Therefore, De Bills and people of low competence in such an organization, as a rule, are above average in comparison with Cm production / other commercial enterprises.
                    Conclusion - do not judge strictly laughing
                    1. 0
                      2 December 2021 12: 57
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      people with low competence in such an organization, as a rule, are above average in comparison with Cm production / other commercial enterprises.

                      Denikin Anton Ivanovich, on this occasion, is well said in his memoirs.
                      And, precisely - the army must be known and understood.
                      1. +4
                        2 December 2021 13: 27
                        Quote: bober1982
                        Denikin Anton Ivanovich, on this occasion, is well said in his memoirs.
                        And, precisely - the army must be known and understood.

                        I know, I understand, that's why I came to such conclusions))
                2. +2
                  2 December 2021 09: 14
                  Quote: Moore
                  So that they can play goodies in their free time?

                  At the same time, being in a closed remote garrison on the edge of geography.
                3. -2
                  2 December 2021 13: 11
                  Quote: Moore
                  Whether it is with the tsar-father - sober-minded miracle heroes, under the command of the most intelligent officers and the wisest / most talented generals.

                  Where did I write this? I repeated many times: the bad always falls apart ... The good is worth it!
                  1. -1
                    2 December 2021 14: 17
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Where did I write this? I repeated many times: the bad always falls apart ... The good is worth it!

                    I didn’t convict you of writing this. Just thoughts from the opposite: since everything was bad in the Red Army, the SA and the RA, it is still bad and nothing has changed - should there be some good landmarks somewhere? Should there be some teetotal armies somewhere, where crimes are not committed, a universal rule reigns everywhere, and young people line up for subpoenas?
                    By the way, at one time with Kreiser in the 1st Moscow Proletarian Division it was so ...
                    1. -3
                      2 December 2021 15: 11
                      Quote: Moore
                      Should there be some teetotal armies somewhere, where crimes are not committed, a universal rule reigns everywhere, and young people line up for subpoenas?

                      Oh, that's what you mean! You need COMPARATIVE INFORMATION. Well - "You want songs, I have them." You will have an article about discipline in the Red Army in comparison with other armies. Somewhat one-sided - no one canceled problems with information, but there will be. How a response to this one!
            2. -1
              10 December 2021 10: 46
              Quote: kalibr
              You re-read the article indicated ... About political politicians ... drunkenness, horse kidnapping ... There are many things ... non-statutory!

              Yes, you read that weapons and funds in the amount of millions of dollars were stolen and classified information was transferred and submarines and ships were sold for scrap ..... I am amazed .. Some are outraged that a horse was kidnapped 80 years ago ... ...
          2. +6
            2 December 2021 08: 55
            Quote: bober1982
            Today, the army and the air force are completely different, you would see the current aircraft and the current air force officers, you would admire

            But I would not admire ...
            Despite modern aircraft and beautifully dressed personnel, the photo from the cockpit of aircraft (Su-34, Tu-22m3, ...) shows non-standard aircraft satellite navigators of imported production. This suggests that the flight crew is not trying to fully study and use the aircraft's equipment, but is following an easy path, not thinking that at a certain time all the satellites will "run out." People don't prepare for war ...
            1. +1
              2 December 2021 09: 08
              Quote: Bez 310
              But I would not admire ...

              Well, how can you know? At least I regularly visit the school and I know the state of affairs as much as possible.
              Flying with satellite navigation is, of course, comfortable and relaxing, but it all depends on personal training.
              1. -1
                2 December 2021 09: 11
                Quote: bober1982
                how can you know?

                I see a photo with a navigator in the cockpit, and I understand that he is not there for beauty.
                1. 0
                  2 December 2021 09: 14
                  Quote: Bez 310
                  I see a photo with a navigator in the cockpit, and I understand that he is not there for beauty

                  What kind of navigator can be on the Su-24, Su-34?
                  The guys from the Il-76 can busily put them on a table in the cockpit, a laptop or a tablet.
                  1. +1
                    2 December 2021 09: 20
                    Quote: bober1982
                    What kind of navigator can be on the Su-24, Su-34?

                    I'm too lazy to look for a photo now, but they mold the navigator on the Su-34 in place of the navigator, on the edge of the dashboard closer to the glass. And on the Tu-22m3 I can show you a photo, if you really don’t believe it.
                    1. -3
                      2 December 2021 09: 27
                      Quote: Bez 310
                      but they mold the navigator on the Su-34 in place of the navigator, on the edge of the dashboard closer to the glass.

                      You are confusing something, this is just stupidity - there is no need for it.
                      Probably it was confused with a tablet, often on the Su-24, and apparently on the Su-34, they laid it out from the navigator's place, to the cockpit glazing, since there was just barely enough space.
                      1. +5
                        2 December 2021 09: 45
                        Quote: bober1982
                        Confusing something, it's just stupidity

                        Maybe I'm confusing, but below you were shown the photo from the cockpit of which plane? Here is the photo:
                      2. -4
                        2 December 2021 09: 52
                        Quote: Bez 310
                        Here is a photo

                        I really liked this photo, it was a pleasure to fly, it was not possible of course.
                        What is up there and why, I have no idea.
                      3. +9
                        2 December 2021 09: 59
                        Maybe I'm confusing, but below you were shown the photo from the cockpit of which plane? Here is the photo:

                        Yeah cool. On our private old Sesna, this is the norm, but to be honest, I did not expect it on a combat aircraft.

                        Well, hello to Rogozin and everyone else from GLONASS. love
                      4. +4
                        2 December 2021 10: 00
                        Quote: Arzt
                        but on a combat plane, to be honest, I did not expect

                        And this is on our most modern aircraft FBA. Unfortunately, this is exactly the case on all our aircraft. And there are reasons for this ...
                    2. -3
                      2 December 2021 09: 28
                      I mean the usual navigator's tablet, with a ruler, maps.
                  2. +13
                    2 December 2021 09: 29
                    Quote: bober1982

                    What kind of navigator can be on the Su-24, Su-34?


                    Touring Garmin.
                    1. -1
                      2 December 2021 09: 31
                      People fly, you will admire.
                      1. +6
                        2 December 2021 09: 38
                        Quote: bober1982
                        People fly, you will admire.

                        Thank you for not having the IPhone in your car holder.
                      2. -2
                        2 December 2021 09: 48
                        The level of navigational training on the Li-2, Tu-2 was higher than on the Il-28
                        The level of navigators of the Yak-28 was lower than that of the Il-28, but higher than that of the Su-24.
                        The level of the Su-24 navigators is higher than the Su-34 navigational training
                        This is all there is to it - it can't be otherwise.
                      3. +5
                        2 December 2021 09: 49
                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        ... in the car holder.

                        I saw a photo with a holder for a car, a suction cup mount on the glass.
                        But I'm afraid that bober1982 He will not believe us, he "regularly visit the school and know the state of affairs."
          3. +5
            2 December 2021 08: 59
            Today, the army and the air force are completely different, you would see the current aircraft and the current air force officers, you would admire,
            for your information - "Without" writes mainly about the service in the 90s. And not about "today". And even more so, I served with him in the same division. And as it turned out, even at one time. True conscript. But I also had the opportunity to observe a lot and draw conclusions. And do not confuse "holy 90s" (the time of the great mess) and "about today's affairs." Hope it gets better.
            1. -3
              2 December 2021 09: 20
              Quote: Region-25.rus
              for your information - "Without" writes mainly about the service in the 90s.

              Vladimir, what 90s is BEZ writing about?
              In the 90s there were no Tu-16s, no political officers, no flights, as such. The army was a rabble of armed people.
              1. +8
                2 December 2021 09: 24
                There were no Tu-90s in the 16s, no political officers, no flights, as such
                those. was there no political officer in my company? By the way, I wrote a detailed commentary on this topic from my service) Just in the article about political politicians (it seems the first one). In 92-93, we had in our divisions Tu-16, Tu-142, and Tu-22M2. I especially liked to watch the flights of the latter in the evening. The sight and sounds are indescribable!
                The army was a rabble of armed people.
                Despite the collapse (and it was already progressing, I do not argue), the division flew regularly until the fall of the 93rd. And under my demobilization, the disbandment began (((((
                ps
                I can only speak for the division where I served. And I remember a lot despite the years. And even as it turned out, I had common acquaintances with your opponent (Bez). In particular, the chief of communications - then with the rank of lieutenant colonel. Our chief liaison officer, so to speak)))
                1. -4
                  2 December 2021 09: 35
                  Quote: Region-25.rus
                  Despite the collapse (and he had already progressed, I do not argue), the division flew regularly until the fall of the 93rd

                  By the fall of 1993, the salary was not paid for months, and who needed the Tu-16, Tu-22m2 at that time, by the way, there was no kerosene.
                  Everyone began to scatter, who did not run away, including political officers.
              2. 0
                2 December 2021 11: 01
                Quote: bober1982
                In the 90s, there were no Tu-16s, no political officers, no flights, as such. The army was a rabble of armed people.

                Right. Not the whole army.

                On August 29.08.1991, 1991, Gorbachev signed a decree "On the abolition of military-political bodies in the USSR Armed Forces, KGB troops, Interior Ministry troops and railway troops", by November XNUMX they were disbanded. By order of the Minister of Defense of the USSR Yazov, the Committee of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR for work with personnel and subordinate bodies in the troops were created.

                After the collapse of the USSR, by the directive of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of 3.09.1992, this committee was reorganized into the Main Directorate for work with the personnel of the Ministry of Defense (in 1994 - the Directorate for work with the personnel of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, in 1994-1997 - the General Directorate for work with personnel Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 1997-2010 - GU of educational work of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation). In 2010 - the Main Directorate for Work with the Personnel of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

                We had a deputy committee. battalion on the radar major .... to, the nickname "Marcello", was very similar to the famous actor, even let go of his thin antennae. He called for intimate conversations, inquired about the moral climate in the team, offered cooperation, and during the conversation he straightened his nails with a file. Later, as I learned, the new "political instructors" were charged with the duty of "special officers" - to prevent crimes. He made a testimonial before dismissal.
            2. +1
              2 December 2021 09: 55
              Quote: Region-25.rus
              "Without" writes mainly about the service in the 90s

              And about the 2000s too ...
              1. +3
                2 December 2021 10: 05
                Excuse me)) I mean political politicians) Personally, in our company, our party member disappeared somewhere in the summer of 93. And they sent some "boy". We are only three years older than us. But he was already called somehow "deputy commander for work with personnel." But that was no longer the same. They took him quickly "into circulation" and taught him "life")))
        2. +1
          2 December 2021 08: 15
          Vyacheslav Olegovich!
          Good afternoon. I remember my training at a military school, 1991-1993. At the time of my commission, after two years of training, I was made an excellent shooter, sentry, good the driver armored vehicles. We hardly did any repairs and maintenance. Theory.
          If the war started then, they would give us one asterisk, but would we be sensible officers? Unlikely. Tanks abandoned from illiterate operation would stand on the sidelines, as in 1941!
          1. -2
            2 December 2021 08: 20
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            I remember my training at a military school, 1991-1993.

            My childhood friend went to the Penza Art School in 1972. I'm in the ped, and he went there ... He ran to me and his wife AWOL, and we fed him soup ... He talked ... about morals ... But I can't retell. Information from hearsay. Not accepted in court.
            1. +5
              2 December 2021 08: 42
              Quote: kalibr
              He talked about ... morals ...

              Vyacheslav Olegovich, well, what customs could be in a Soviet military school of the 70s, and even in an artillery school - study, drill, outfits, guards. There is no free time, I wanted girls, home comfort.
              Have you ever, forgive me, whose washed panties you wore? Or, to pass four years in boots, with footcloths, live in the barracks and other hardships and deprivations of army service.
              1. +3
                2 December 2021 12: 05
                Quote: bober1982
                Vyacheslav Olegovich, well, what customs could be in a Soviet military school of the 70s, and even in an artillery school - study, drill, outfits, guards. There is no free time, I wanted girls, home comfort.

                Well, no need to bend it, because even officers studied at the Penza Artillery School as an engineer, receiving a higher military education there, and ordinary cadets mastered science for 5 years. So you are in vain talking about drill - usually it is on the first, second, and by the third it passes. The fourth and fifth year at us, in another engineering school, did not even go to the guard and lived in a hostel or in apartments.
                As for the quality of the training itself, because of constant and controlled self-training, even weak cadets could catch up, and taking into account their youth, they hammered fundamental knowledge into their heads for life, which later helped to understand new models of weapons and equipment and learn from them to work.
                Quote: bober1982
                Or, to pass four years in boots, with footcloths, live in the barracks and other hardships and deprivations of army service.

                What four years if
                In 1958, on their basis, the Penza higher engineering School of the Order of the Red Star. On June 21, 1968, the school was named after the Chief Marshal of Artillery N.N. Voronova.
                .
                The Penza School, as far as I know, trained specialists in rocketry, which is why it was made an engineer almost one of the first in the country in this profile, and this already speaks about everything, for those who are in the subject.
                1. -7
                  2 December 2021 12: 33
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Penza school

                  They drove us, and those, it was in the aviation school, but so that in the artillery, in hothouse conditions, I will not believe.
                  1. +2
                    2 December 2021 13: 15
                    Quote: bober1982
                    They drove us, and those, it was in the aviation school,

                    And they did the right thing, because this was the only way to instill in you discipline in the sky, without which the life of pilots would be short-lived.
                    I knew one pilot of the polar aviation GA, who flew for 20 years trouble-free in the Arctic, and he told me directly that it was all just because he was disciplined and strictly followed all flight rules. And those who did not follow this were buried ahead of time ...
        3. -1
          2 December 2021 08: 48
          Quote: kalibr
          About today's business ...

          You still need to understand what times this "pilot" wrote about, who, in fact, is a navigator.
        4. +5
          2 December 2021 08: 56
          "A large number of drunks with fights, unauthorized absences and other immoral misdeeds incompatible with the rank of commander, Red Army soldier,
          here I agree! Especially when I hear howls in the style - "Stalin repressed" the color of "officers!" ... So they punished mainly for this - sloppiness, drunkenness, non-regulation and other lewdness. What would you like to do? Ironing on the heads and handing out gingerbread? (I'm talking about howlers about the innocently repressed military).
        5. -2
          2 December 2021 09: 43
          Wait a minute ... If you are already talking about the pilot, I stood up for my fellow countryman. After carefully reading this article and excerpts from reports- "No planning. No plans. Not in depth, superficial." Reminds us of our 90s. I would only kill the commissars for these "planning, deepening, strengthening".
    2. +1
      2 December 2021 07: 56
      We would not have had so many trained personnel.
      My grandfather became a commander for the Komsomol conscription - three months in field camps, studied a light machine gun and the party line - a cube on a buttonhole and a junior lieutenant is ready.
      And the examinations for him were Finnish.
      But in the army, where they understood the quality lag of personnel, it was decided to take by quantity. So they formed divisions and brigades "on their knees" from what was at hand.
      If the war began a couple of years later, we would simply have more in the number of divisions, such as the author wrote about at the beginning.
      1. -1
        2 December 2021 08: 04
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        We would not have had so many trained personnel.
        My grandfather became a Komsomol conscript commander

        Yes, everything is correct, hence such problems were.
        But, otherwise, it could not be, the time was hard.
        1. -1
          2 December 2021 08: 21
          Quote: bober1982
          But, otherwise, it could not be, the time was hard.

          Did the leadership correspond to it in terms of its level of education and intelligence?
          1. +2
            2 December 2021 08: 28
            Quote: kalibr
            Did the leadership correspond to it in terms of its level of education and intelligence?

            No, it didn’t correspond, for the most part, where did they get them from?
            1. -1
              2 December 2021 13: 21
              Well, here's the answer to all the problems and causes of the 91st year! They also learned Polo from bad books, the necessary books were hidden in special storage. They have not been abroad, they did not know the languages ​​and tried to outplay the graduates of Harvard, Cambridge and Yale ... Naive ...
              1. +1
                2 December 2021 16: 06
                Quote: kalibr
                they also learned from bad books, the necessary books were hidden in special storage.

                Received a brilliant navigational education, studied from the textbooks of the 30s, including in the first year, thus we developed brain activity.

                Quote: kalibr
                Have not been abroad, did not know languages

                This did not affect the quality of takeoff and landing in any way.
                1. -1
                  2 December 2021 17: 08
                  Quote: bober1982
                  Received a brilliant navigational education, studied from the textbooks of the 30s, including in the first year, thus we developed brain activity.

                  Quote: kalibr
                  Have not been abroad, did not know languages

                  This did not affect the quality of takeoff and landing in any way.

                  Professional education is one thing. Humanitarian - in the broadest sense of the word - is different. You can be a well-educated specialist and a stupid citizen. That, by the way, 1991 also showed. Didn't we have a few excellent pilots, missilemen, tankers, ... but only their number did not help. But the lack of "educated citizens" had a very strong impact.
                  1. -2
                    2 December 2021 17: 13
                    Quote: kalibr
                    But the lack of "educated citizens" had a very strong impact.

                    From them and all the troubles, from the educated - they are clever, if you don’t believe me, read the works of the Church Fathers.
                    1. -1
                      2 December 2021 18: 03
                      Quote: bober1982
                      From them and all the troubles, from the educated - they are clever, if you don’t believe me, read the works of the Church Fathers.

                      I know, I know ... How! "That is why Russia was strong, that covering the shame of the face with a brad, like a dove, in holy ignorance, offered up prayers!"
                2. -1
                  2 December 2021 17: 11
                  Quote: bober1982
                  we were developing brain activity.

                  It has no humanitarian value without a complex of knowledge. Even Emperor Nicholas I worked for a high-quality professional education and no more. The French ambassador tried to convince him otherwise. History has shown that the Frenchman was right.
                  1. +2
                    2 December 2021 17: 21
                    Quote: kalibr
                    It has no humanitarian value without a complex of knowledge.

                    When I was young, I read the Remarque, and thus acquired humanitarian knowledge, I don't need more, it's quite enough, it's not Shakespeare for me to read, in the original.
                    1. -1
                      2 December 2021 17: 57
                      Quote: bober1982

                      When I was young, I read the Remarque, and thus acquired humanitarian knowledge, I don't need more, it's quite enough, it's not Shakespeare for me to read, in the original.

                      Remarque cannot replace systematic liberal arts education in the broad sense of the word, useful to all members of society. By the way, there is Shakespeare in Marshak's excellent translations!
                      1. ANB
                        +1
                        3 December 2021 00: 10
                        ... systematic liberal arts education

                        But in the 90s, universities with humanitarian specialties were opened. And managerial. All literature is now available. Has it become more useless? A herd of lawyers wanders. Moreover, the majority does not want to work.
                      2. 0
                        3 December 2021 07: 13
                        Quote: ANB
                        All literature is now available.

                        The availability of literature and the culture of its consumption are different things. What you have written confirms this once again.
      2. +8
        2 December 2021 08: 08
        At mine, they also drafted into the army, opa 7 classes of education, forward to the courses of junior lieutenants, just the Finnish was going. There I did practice.
      3. +5
        2 December 2021 08: 19
        Formation of parts of the Red Army, then re-formation, and then re-re-formation.
        Too much has changed, especially the people who did it ...
        whatever you call it, fever is a leapfrog, the process was going on and they did not have time to do much, because they understood that changes were needed.
        Alas, alas, in such a state they entered the war, or rather, dragged them into it.
        Remembering and not repeating past mistakes is the most important thing.
    3. -5
      2 December 2021 09: 06
      Quote: Xlor
      If the war began two years later, such a defeat, which was in 1941, would not have happened.

      And WHO interfered with the so-called. "management" to start two years EARLIER?

      And BEFORE 1939, at least just perform their duties properly and by 1939 the army would have been completely different.

      The act of acceptance of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense S.K. Timoshenko from K.E. Voroshilov, 1940:

      The exact number of the actual strength of the Red Army at the time of the reception of the People's Commissart has no... Personnel registration due to the fault of the Main Directorate of the Red Army is in an extremely neglected state.


      4. On the organization of troops - there are no provisions on the management of units (regiments), formations (divisions and brigades). . The provision on the field command of troops has not been developed.

      extreme neglect of accounting for military-liable reserves, since rediscount
      not carried out with 1927 years;

      Among the reserves liable for military service are 3 untrained people. Training plan for their People's Commissariat of Defense has

      The training of command personnel in military schools is unsatisfactory
      due to poor quality of programs, disorganization of classes,
      insufficient training time load and especially weak field practical
      training. Improvement of the cadre's commanding staff properly
      not organized. The disadvantage of training programs for commanders in military educational institutions is: conducting classes mainly in classrooms, the lack of field studies, the saturation of programs with general subjects to the detriment of the military.

      Improper training and education of troops.

      In combat training in the oysk, many conventions are allowed, troops do not train in an environment close to combat reality, in relation to
      to the requirements of theaters of military operations.

      Wide application of the system of conventions in the training and education of troops
      created in the troops a misconception about the harsh reality of war.

      The troops are little trained in the field of the practical implementation of all the necessary

      for the fight. ' Not enough endurance is brought up and instilled,
      physical hardening and the desire to fulfill the order unquestioningly


      etc. and the like for ALL types of troops and their training.

      Those. and until 1939, the leadership of the army, represented by Voroshilov and Co., simply did not do their direct responsibilities for military development due to their dense ignorance, inability to work and organize a business, but being engaged in window dressing and hunting for the so-called. "enemies of the people."

      On the basis of this Act, Voroshilov should be shot more than once. But no, he was also allowed to bring Leningrad to the blockade, before removing it further ...
    4. +4
      2 December 2021 12: 42
      today is Ivanov's day.

      Another such year and the Red Army would have become completely different. But the war fell on a difficult period of structural changes and the development of combat experience, and the work had to be completed amid the roar of cannon fire.


      no need to dissemble.
      In some of Topvo's articles (Tsar's officers ...), some here cite figures that more than half and a half of the tsarist officers in the Red Army went to serve. In short, there are a lot of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, but then they turned back and "there was not enough military personnel."
      It is necessary to somehow determine whether the white officers went en masse into the spacecraft or did not go, or went, but shot them.
      It seems that they did not go so massively, and those who went especially the nobles were shot.
  2. -6
    2 December 2021 05: 44
    The mess in one word was complete after the purge of the command staff in 1937 in the Red Army.
    Junior commanders were appointed to positions that did not correspond to their experience and length of service in the army ... of course, the enemy took advantage of this to the fullest.
    At the beginning of the war, Pokryshkin fired on the SB-3 medium bomber in his MiG-2 ... none of the commanders bothered to acquaint him with the then secret Soviet aircraft.
    And there were a lot of such punctures in the Red Army at that time.
    1. +5
      2 December 2021 05: 48
      The mess in one word was complete after the purge of 1937 in the Red Army

      There was no mess. There was an acute shortage of personnel due to the fact that the army, after the adoption of the Law on General Obligation in 1939, grew by leaps and bounds ...
      1. +2
        2 December 2021 06: 04
        There was a mess. The lack of experienced personnel played a big role ... but they were in the camps ... I read the memoirs of General Gorbatov ... he, as an experienced specialist, was dragged out of the camp with sick swollen legs just before the war.
        Then Gorbatov had to stabilize the situation at the fronts in critical places.
        There were plenty of people like Gorbatov in the camps.
        1. +11
          2 December 2021 06: 56
          There were plenty of people like Gorbatov in the camps.

          This is the level of a division commander, a brigade commander, but it was necessary to have a trained sergeant, trained junior commanders, who were missing due to the increased conscription and the arrival of completely new weapons. Gorbatov taught the soldiers to shoot from a cannon or drive a tank. Gorbatov's merit lies elsewhere, he knew how to think and was not a simple executor, he could also challenge the decisions of higher-ranking officials, such as Zhukov and Malinovsky. By the way, it would be better if he commanded the fronts, but he did not know how to bend, so his leadership talent was not fully in demand, unlike the same close-minded Malinovsky, with whom he had a conflict. Yes, and Zhukov disliked him even from the commander's courses, where Gorbatov was the best cadet.
          1. +3
            2 December 2021 07: 24
            Quote: Konnick
            Yes, and Zhukov disliked him even from the commander's courses, where Gorbatov was the best cadet.

            Personal relationships have always been and will be! And the power only aggravated them!
        2. +6
          2 December 2021 11: 33
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          There was a mess. The lack of experienced personnel played a large role ... but they were in the camps ...

          And where did the experienced personnel come from in the Red Army in the interwar period? What experience did they have?
          Even with the formation of the command staff, we had a complete fifth point.
          It seems that we still do not realize how low the level of general education of the commanders of the Red Army was in the 30s - not only after the repressions, but even earlier. For example, in 1929, 81,6 percent (and 90,8 percent in infantry schools) of ground forces admitted to military schools had only elementary education or none at all! In January 1932, 79,1 percent of cadets of military schools had primary education, in January 1936, 68,5 percent (but in armored ones, 85 percent). These were the fruits of the pursuit of "the percentage of workers and peasants" ... But, "as you know," Commander SN Bogomyagkov noted in 1935, "tactically competent commanders are 99 percent people with good general development and broad outlook. There are few exceptions. " In particular, it is not surprising, therefore, the level demonstrated at the February 1937 exercises by the command personnel of the 24th and 96th divisions of the KVO. Indeed, on February 15, 1936, in the 24th division of secondary education, 68,6 percent of middle commanders, that is, lieutenants and senior lieutenants (they mainly commanded platoons and companies) did not have 96 percent, and in the 71th - 64,6 percent. Among senior commanders (including captains, who made up the bulk of battalion commanders), these were 59 percent and XNUMX percent, respectively.
          As for military education, 37 percent of the middle command personnel of the 24th KVO division and 39 percent of the 96th did not finish military school!
          © Smirnov. Great maneuvers.
          1. +1
            2 December 2021 16: 06
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Even with the formation of the command staff, we had a complete fifth point.

            It would be simply not clear and it would be surprising if it were different .... Where did they get it from ... Where could they get in a still peasant country millions of educated and trained people for the army, industry, science and for the same education system. ..Although what efforts make for 15 years it is physically impossible ..
            1. +1
              2 December 2021 18: 20
              Quote: mat-vey
              Where was it possible to get millions of educated and trained people for the army, industry, science and for the same education system in a still peasant country ... Even if you put in some effort in 15 years it is physically impossible ...

              In fact, in 10 years. Mass education came to grips with only at the beginning of the 30s. And the first progress began only in the late 30s.
              In 1939, among cadets of colleges, graduating from technical schools and technical schools accounted for 14,5% of the total number, 10 classes - 17%, 9 classes - 9,9%, 8 classes - 12,6%, 7 classes - 43,9%, and students Universities were 1,5%.

              Well, and the explosive growth in the number of Red Army formations in 1939-1941. also played a significant role - one refusal of troichats with a "triple" deployment of them in personnel and cadre divisions was worth what.
              Appointments and relocations in 1939 alone involved 246626 people, which was then 68,8% of the staff of the commanding staff.

              The total number of appointments to the nomenclature positions of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR for 1939 amounted to 3031 people, i.e. 62,5% of their full-time staff; for the group of combat posts from the regiment commander and above, 2452 appointments were made in the same year, or 73,9% of their full-time staff.
              1. +1
                2 December 2021 18: 30
                Well, I'm talking about the same ... so the question arises - was there any fault? The leadership, if we proceed from the real situation, accomplished a feat - pulled the country and people out of the opening "grave" ...
    2. +6
      2 December 2021 06: 07
      Colleague, not SB-2, but SU-2 or BB-1
      1. +2
        2 December 2021 06: 12
        Yes ... thanks for the amendment ... my blooper. hi
      2. +3
        2 December 2021 08: 26
        So the TB-7 (Pe-8) fired at their own.
        And then the "Spitfires" received from the British were mistaken for the German Me.
        And our own tanks fired at EVERYTHING and with great pleasure.
        1. +3
          2 December 2021 11: 37
          Quote: hohol95
          So the TB-7 (Pe-8) fired at their own.

          Moreover, it was the car of the commander of the 81st bad Vodopyanov.
          And the Er-2 of the Kubyshko crew in the same raid was generally shot down by the I-16 on its return.
          1. +2
            2 December 2021 12: 21
            Ours and Li-2 somehow piled up with a group of technicians that he was transporting. Moreover, during the day, in simple weather conditions, in the area of ​​your own airfield
          2. +2
            2 December 2021 16: 06
            EP-2; TB-7 - few have seen these planes live!
            And their "images" were probably not sent to the fighter and anti-aircraft units at all!
            At the same time, the Czechoslovak B.71 (SB-2 license) could well have been used by the Germans for reconnaissance flights!
            The Finns used captured Soviet aircraft!
        2. +2
          2 December 2021 11: 48
          and even successfully shot down when returning from the bombing of Berlin
    3. +1
      2 December 2021 07: 28
      One officer on the march generally shot a private, who rubbed his legs and sat down to rest, and then shoved him away when he began to inspire him. True, he received 10 years for this. There is interesting data on the number of deaths in the Red Army at the end of the 40s and the beginning of 41 per month - the count went to TEN.
      1. +4
        2 December 2021 12: 15
        Quote: kalibr
        There is interesting data on the number of deaths in the Red Army at the end of the 40s and the beginning of 41 per month - the count went to TEN.

        Only one should not speculate on this, because in the course of studies and emergencies, servicemen were killed both in the Soviet Army and in the Russian army, and an investigation is ordered for each case. More recently, two paratroopers, professional contract soldiers, died in exercises with extensive jumping experience, and this happens all the time. So there is no need to blame everything on the mess in the Red Army, although there was enough of it. You just don't want to understand that the explosive growth of the army after 1939 led to the fact that the army was washed out by unprepared servicemen, which is why it was so difficult to teach everyone at once, and even more so to achieve coordination of actions in units and formations. But this is understood by those who themselves taught the personnel, and did not accept the self-willed at home, and on the basis of this made a conclusion about its preparation.
        1. 0
          2 December 2021 13: 07
          Quote: ccsr
          You just do not want to understand that the explosive growth in the number of the army after 1939 led to the fact that the army was eroded by unprepared military personnel,

          I understand this very well. And I am not referring to the information from the self-willed.
          Here is the person who wrote everything himself, according to his personal experience: https://topwar.ru/189350-vnuki-komissarov.html
    4. +4
      2 December 2021 07: 58
      The mess in one word was complete after the purge of the command staff in 1937 in the Red Army.
      Cleaning up the non-commissioned officers?
    5. +5
      2 December 2021 08: 23
      At the beginning of the war, Pokryshkin fired on the SB-3 medium bomber in his MiG-2.

      Well, not SB, but BB, Sukhoi had such a machine, it was very good, but production was quickly stopped - capacities for other types were needed. The BB was not a secret, in the heat of the first battle, whoever was not shot at.
      1. 0
        2 December 2021 13: 08
        Quote: Aviator_
        at Sukhoi

        Yakovlev has ... BB-22 or Yak-4
        1. +3
          2 December 2021 16: 02
          Yakovlev has ... BB-22 or Yak-4

          It was a Su-2 or BB. Yak-4 (also BB) was done very little, according to the scheme repeated PE-2. Su-2 fought well at the beginning of the war.
        2. +1
          2 December 2021 16: 33
          BB-1 aka Su-2.
          It's a pity the Yak-4 was not mass-produced in the R-12 (reconnaissance) variant.
          The Yakovlev Design Bureau also had an NBB / Yak-6.
          A night bomber and a military transport aircraft with a cargo of 450 kg or 6 passengers.
    6. +2
      2 December 2021 13: 29
      What kind of SB-2 ...
      Su-2 can?
  3. +4
    2 December 2021 05: 51
    Haste, very often Wishlist prevailed over common sense !!!
    Although, what times were there, what was the need and how extreme was it ??? You still need to understand this. This is not done with a swoop!
  4. +1
    2 December 2021 06: 13
    Dear VO editors, have you seen what the photo for this article looks like on the "History" page?
  5. +3
    2 December 2021 06: 21
    You read something like that and an old anecdote comes to mind:
    Schaub I was so smart BEFORE
    like my Sarah AFTER
  6. +1
    2 December 2021 06: 47
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    At the beginning of the war, Pokryshkin fired on the SB-3 medium bomber in his MiG-2 ... none of the commanders bothered to acquaint him with the then secret Soviet aircraft

    Do you think that the entire staff of the Air Force should have been familiarized with all the secret developments? Most likely there was a mismatch
    1. +3
      2 December 2021 06: 50
      The cost of this inconsistency is human life. what
      Fighter pilots elite of the Air Force why keep secret from them.
      1. 0
        2 December 2021 06: 52
        Fighter pilots elite of the Air Force why keep secrets from them?

        And if he is shot down over enemy territory?
        1. +2
          2 December 2021 06: 55
          Of the two evils, we chose the lesser ... if our pilot knocks down our plane out of ignorance, this is the lesser evil ... original. what
    2. +3
      2 December 2021 07: 17

      Do you think that the entire staff of the Air Force should have been familiarized with all the secret developments? Most likely there was a mismatch

      But right now, VO readers will find out about new developments before they are classified bully
    3. +6
      2 December 2021 11: 52
      Quote: Luminman
      Do you think that the entire staff of the Air Force should have been familiarized with all the secret developments?

      There was not SB-2, but Su-2. Before the war, two air regiments (210th and 211st) were rearmed with this aircraft in the OdVO. But the silhouettes of the Su-2 were not brought to fighters.

      With the total classification of information in the Red Army, there was a complete fifth point. It got to the point that only the crews and their superiors had the right to know the characteristics of the T-34.
      I draw special attention to the preservation of the secrecy of information on the "Tactical and technical properties of machines", which should be known only to the commanding staff and crews working on these machines.
      Explain to all personnel and require them to keep the data on these machines secret.
      © Order dated April 16, 1941 No. 140385ss
      Attention, the question: how to plan operations for mechanized riflemen of the mechanized corps or ordinary commanders of rifle divisions, if the characteristics of the equipment of the tank subunits assigned to them are secret?
    4. +3
      2 December 2021 11: 53
      what to keep secret? silhouettes of a serial aircraft already delivered to the troops? well, even these silhouettes would have got to the Germans before the war, so what? and so that the pilots, that the anti-aircraft gunners of any of the armies will beat on everything unfamiliar. so who did better from such secrecy?
    5. +1
      2 December 2021 13: 32
      At that time, he was no longer a secret development, they could well acquaint with the materiel of neighboring regiments
  7. -3
    2 December 2021 07: 30
    There was no mess in the Air Force, there were problems that arose during the massive retraining of former collective farmers, workers, and other categories of workers who were not too educated on airplanes, it should be noted.
    So, the famous order N70 of 1940 by the People's Commissar of Defense Voroshilov, measures were taken to restore order in the Air Force, including tightening measures for the selection of candidates for pilots.
    1. -1
      2 December 2021 08: 08
      Well, how did it happen that the Luftwaffe destroyed on the airfields on the first day of the war most of the aircraft of the Red Army Air Force.
      And our Air Force commander, after flying around the bombed airfields, simply shot himself ... out of despair or fear of the tribunal. what
      1. -2
        2 December 2021 08: 15
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        Well, how did it happen that the Luftwaffe destroyed most of the aircraft of the Red Army Air Force on the first day of the war?

        Probably because ours flew in tarpaulin boots, unlike the Germans.
    2. +4
      2 December 2021 12: 00
      Quote: bober1982
      There was no mess in the Air Force

      Aha-aha ... and the regiment was not assembled on alarm for half a day. wink Order No. 0362 appeared just after such an embarrassment.
    3. +4
      2 December 2021 12: 02
      And what an exemplary order was going on in the 5th Directorate of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Spacecraft and in general in airfield construction ...
      The construction of facilities in such districts as Odessa and the Baltic, was carried out without projects and estimates. Site surveys were carried out hastily according to external signs without sufficient study of them. As a result, the selected sites in many cases turned out to be unsuitable for use as operational airfields and landing sites, and the command of the districts was subsequently forced to abandon them, which led to the waste of public funds and the disruption of the construction plan of facilities.

      .. in July 1940, by order of Major Makeyev, the expansion of the Chisinau airfield was started without a project and estimates, although the inexpediency of its expansion was obvious due to the large volume of earthworks. On a number of signals received from the field about the expulsion of tenants and the drawing up of estimates, Makeev did not take any measures until September.
      Only on 10.IX.40 was a survey made and estimates were made, on the basis of which in October 1940, further work to expand the airfield was stopped as unprofitable. As a result, about 500 rubles were spent aimlessly through Makeev’s fault.

      The construction of operational airfields in the Moscow Military District was unsatisfactory. By the choice of sites for the construction of operational aerodromes, the airfield department of the MVO Air Force approached irresponsibly.
      During the construction of the Pavlovskoye airfield, when leveling the relief, it was necessary to remove the soil up to 2 meters thick, while nearby was an area with a smaller amount of earthwork.
      Chertanovo airdrome is limited in size to 900x900 and it is not possible to expand [it], since there is a collective farm on one side and a swamp on the other. By the decision of the commission, the construction of the Chertanovo airfield was canceled, but the former. Major General Eremenko, commander of the Air Force Air Defense Ministry, decided to build.
      The Vatulinsky airdrome, measuring 900x900 meters, is 5-6 km from the railway. There are no access roads to the airfield.
      1. +6
        2 December 2021 12: 03
        Meanwhile, the mess was taking on epic proportions ...
        5 management of accurate data for planning building materials in the districts did not have, as a result of which their distribution was carried out by eye. So, for the month of October 1940 for the Air Force PribOVO at st. Riga had planned 40 wagons of cement, while according to the application only 12 wagons were required. With the urgent need for oil bitumen for the Odessa Military District 5, the department planned for October only 90 tons, while for the ZAPOVO, which did not require at all, it planned 95 tons.

        5, the department did not control the shipment of gas tanks to the districts and irresponsibly distributed the shipment of gas tanks from factories to the districts, which in some cases led to unnecessary costs and delays in construction. Thus, the Sves plant was scheduled to ship 14 tanks to OdVO, while the Tsnitmash plant directly located in Odessa, according to the apportionment, shipped 89 tanks to ZakVO. In turn, Georgia has a plant for the manufacture of gas tanks.
        All these facts led to the fact that the plan for the construction of operational airfields for 1940 was not fulfilled.

        The command of the 5th Directorate of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Red Army is essentially not engaged in the preparation of the airfield departments of the districts for the construction season of 1941. There is no data on the extent to which the construction of facilities is provided with surveys, design and estimates.

        Land plots for the construction of operational aerodromes are alienated according to the old standards - 144 hectares, i.e. 1200x1200, while the commissioning of new high-speed aviation requires an increase in the airfield to 1500x1500 plus an approach strip of 150 meters.

        In 1939, two hangars were brought to the Chernyshevsky Far East Fields and have not yet been assembled. In 1939, designs were brought to the Moninsky airfield, but so far the hangar has not been assembled. A similar situation in ORVO and Zapovo. Thus, dozens of structures are made and are in a state of mismanagement, while aircraft due to the lack of hangars in ZakVO and ArchVO rot.

        It should be noted that during the busy period of airfield construction in 1940, a number of senior officials of the 5th Directorate of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the KA, headed by the beginning. management Filatov and former. Commissioner, now Deputy Chief. Andreenko's management, were engaged in the construction of their own dachas, using their official position to obtain building materials and spending official time on this.
        © Head of the 2nd department of the 3rd department of the NCO of the USSR, captain of state security Avseevich
        1. -4
          2 December 2021 12: 38
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Head of the 2nd section of the 3rd department of the NCO of the USSR, captain of state security Avseevich

          So what? What's new?
          By 1922, the country was in a state of complete ruin, they managed to create a powerful army, powerful aviation.
          The pace was high, there was a smell of war, there was no time.
          1. +2
            2 December 2021 13: 17
            Quote: bober1982
            So what? What's new?

            Well, of course, you said that
            Quote: bober1982
            There was no mess in the Air Force, there were problems that arose during the massive retraining of former collective farmers, workers, and other categories of workers who were not too educated on airplanes, it should be noted.

            So I would like to know - who was massively retrained in this case? Really a number of responsible employees of the 5th Directorate of the Air Force GU KA, headed by the beginning. management Filatov and former. commissar, now deputy. management of Andrienko?

            In the case of the failure of the modernization of the airfield network, this is not a growth problem, but a mess in the Air Force. This is clearly seen from the quotes about overly charged building materials, a carousel of tanks and hangars lying unassembled for a year.
        2. 0
          2 December 2021 16: 36
          "Where the Air Force begins, the ORDER ends there!"
          1. -1
            2 December 2021 16: 56
            Quote: hohol95
            "Where the Air Force begins, the ORDER ends there!"

            The Air Force is a wonderland!
  8. -1
    2 December 2021 08: 35
    "The flight was made by Lebedev with an old, tattered map, which did not show the line of the state border of Lithuania with the Memel region; Junior Lieutenant Kuznetsov left his map on the ground."
    How familiar it all is ...
    1. +5
      2 December 2021 10: 15
      Were you also given a battered card?
      Here you are "pouring" ...
      So everyone in the USSR knew that aviation navigators use a pack of Belomorkanal cigarettes!
      1. -1
        2 December 2021 10: 25
        Quote: hohol95
        Were you also given a battered card?
        Here you are "pouring" ...

        Shabby cards are not issued, they become so during operation. Look at my publications, I have long passed a story called "Squad Navigator" to the editorial office, because there it is a question of just such a map.
  9. +5
    2 December 2021 09: 40
    Elena Prudnikova, studying documents from an earlier time, got the same picture. The point is not only to increase the army, and the formation of new complex organizational structures of the stupid mechanized corps. The point is in the very attitude to service in the Red Army from the collapse of the imperial army in 1917 and the formation of the Red Army on the basis of its remnants until the arrest of Tukhachevsky. The army is a structure with rather rigid orders, not tolerating democracy, and functioning on the principle that the command of the commander is the law. And if you have a commander from the 17th year, if not directly send, then discuss at a meeting, then the army at the grassroots level will not differ much from the modern armies of mama's sons, when any difficulties, especially if there were accidents, that some soldier on the march overheated, immediately cause hysteria in the local committee of soldiers' mothers, and combat training turns into a farce, then your infantry will not be able to dig in, and tankers will pass long marches.

    And the paints of the level of Tukhachevsky, who at the age of 25 became the commander of the army, simply will not understand how the army is organized at all levels. If some former tsarist colonel had been in the Soviet-Polish war near Warsaw, the operation might not have failed catastrophically. Zhukov, apparently early. The General Staff was set up with only one goal, so that he, as an officer who has gone through all the service levels, put things in order. Zhukov himself was not a staff officer, and as it was written on him in his testimonial, "he hates staff work organically."
  10. +7
    2 December 2021 09: 50
    From the book of Elena Prudnikova:

    On July 26, 1932, the People's Commissariat for Military Affairs Voroshilov wrote to Stalin:

    “On July 13, at the Totsk training ground of the PRI VO [13], a group of Red Army soldiers, going to hay, stumbled upon an unexploded shell and, despite a warning from the senior team not to touch the shell, one of the Red Army men raised the shell and then threw it. The shell exploded. As a result, 3 were killed, 7 were wounded, of which two died on the same day ... On July 23, in the Minsk region, the cavalry group returned from classes, leading the horses on the bit. The Red Army men stumbled upon ... an unexploded shell. And again, literally the same story. The elder ordered the Red Army soldier to throw the dangerous toy, and the shell exploded. Killed 2, wounded 7, two of them died ... And such outrage endlessly, without an edge! "

    … This is not surprising at all. After all, what is a Red Army fighter? This is the village Vasya, who in a year at school mastered the literacy in warehouses, but had never seen a mechanism more complicated than a plow. This Vasya walks across the field, finds a shell, what kind of crap is lying around - he, of course, neither sleep nor spirit. He saw - raised, the elder shouted: "Don't touch!" - threw it. Result: according to the statistics of 1931 in the Red Army, there were 2000 injuries and 400 deaths only as a result of accidents. And if only this was the problem! There is still 85 percent of the iceberg under water.

    The main problem was not even injury, but the fact that trusting Vasya with anything more difficult than a bayonet was simply scary. Either the mechanism will break, or he himself will be crippled. No, he will eventually learn to shoot - the soldiers of the imperialist were shooting, so you can teach. (Moreover, the three-ruler was originally made for such a soldier - it can be broken, but difficult.) And who to put behind the machine gun? And put in a tank?

    With the technical branches of the troops in the Red Army, there was just trouble. In 1940, the educational level of conscripts was four classes, and this was when the Soviet educational program had been gaining momentum for ten years already. In older ages, things were even worse. (And at the beginning of the war, the Germans had an average educational level, according to our account, 9 classes.)

    True, there were rural machine operators and drivers - there were hundreds of thousands of tractors in the countryside, someone plowed all of them, and there were a lot of trucks, and someone drove all of them. But this does not mean that the rural mechanic will become a tanker. No, he will be able to pull the levers, but in the army the mechanic is also obliged to repair the mechanism entrusted to him. But here everything is more complicated. On collective farms, trust the tractor drivers to repair tractors - there were no fools! Tractors and trucks were repaired and serviced at MTS. Is it any wonder that, having accumulated 1941 thousand tanks by 25, the Red Army lost them in the very first month of the war? The crew often abandoned the car due to a trifling breakdown.


    And Prudnikova's question to 41 is quite fair, not why it happened, but how we won the War in the end.
    1. 0
      2 December 2021 14: 24
      It raises doubts that the text from the second paragraph was written by Voroshilov to Stalin ...
      Maybe the text of E.A. Prudnikova comes from the second paragraph? wink
  11. +3
    2 December 2021 10: 54
    Quote: Olgovich
    And WHO interfered with the so-called. "management" to start two years EARLIER?

    And you "rewind" from 1939 two years ago. What happened?
    And it was:
    1. Fighting either the left or the right bias
    2.T. n. "Conspiracy of the military"
    3. The Third Five-Year Plan was just beginning ...
    There was no time for the army, but how to sit in the Kremlin. In fact, the real preparation for war began only in 1939 ...
    1. 0
      2 December 2021 16: 20
      Quote: Xlor
      In fact, the real preparation for war began only in 1939 ...

      And it could not start earlier - for this it was first necessary to prepare the industry (in the case of the USSR, simply create it) to train personnel - in fact, at least somehow raise the educational level of the population at least to the minimum required for a technically armed army and providing it with this technology industry ...
  12. +5
    2 December 2021 11: 23
    The punishment is serious - the SB crew went to court, the squadron commander and the navigator lost one asterisk.
    And at the squadron commander and navigator, the stars were removed from their caps, then there were "kubari" and "sleepers" on the collar tabs ... wink
  13. +3
    2 December 2021 11: 25
    The crew of the SB plane of the 31st high-speed bomber regiment consisting of senior lieutenant S.P. Lebedev, junior lieutenant I.K. Kuznetsov and junior platoon commander G.D. During a training flight in a closed cockpit near his airfield, he lost his bearings, flew over the state border and landed in Memel.

    There was a scandal only because the plane landed abroad. And so, the pilots of the Air Force and the Air Force of the Navy roamed regularly and with taste. Rakov had an episode in his memoirs, how Michelson's crew, having got to the SMU, “beguiled the shores” of the Gulf of Finland and got their bearings only when, walking along the coast, went straight to Koivisto.
    Two cases of assault, the commissioner went to court, the company commander who hit the soldier lost his star. Moreover, judging by the level of decision-making - the People's Commissar of Defense, a case atypical for the Red Army of that time and not an ordinary one, since the scandal reached such a level.

    The case was just typical for that time - after the adoption of the Disciplinary Charter, some commanders went into a rage while imposing discipline. And he got into the order precisely because this phenomenon began to gain momentum and it was necessary to suppress it from above.
    They also complained about the appearance of "dentists" at the Meeting of the top leadership of the Red Army on December 23-31, 1940.
    But there are individuals in the commanding staff who are trying to interpret Article 6 of the Disciplinary Regulations as the right to beat up the Red Army soldiers. Colonel Matevosyan says: "Use the force of arms, otherwise you yourself will answer." And at a meeting of junior commanders, he concretized this instruction: "You see that the bed is not filled, call this Red Army man and kick him in the mouth." The assistant foreman of the first company of this regiment conveyed this instruction to the Red Army men, and the first company, as you know, is staffed with Red Army men with higher education; he built them and said: "Although you have a higher education, but if you do not do what I order, you will get in the teeth." And at the evening check-up, he hit one of the Red Army men for moving in the ranks.
    © Vashugin N.N., corps commissar, member of the Military Council of the Kiev Special Military District
  14. +4
    2 December 2021 12: 59
    The USSR in 1941 from the point of view of mentality, education and lifestyle of the majority of the population was still an agrarian country - hence the jambs in the formation of a mass conscript army.

    PS Some still (see the next article in the section) remain mentally agrarians and emphasize conspiracy instead of relying on the objective situation in the leadership and mobility resources of the USSR in 1941 bully
    1. 0
      2 December 2021 13: 32
      Quote: Operator
      The USSR in 1941 in terms of mentality, education and lifestyle of the majority of the population was still an agrarian country

      Sheer turf - her mother is so!
      1. -1
        2 December 2021 14: 52
        Not solid - otherwise they would not have won.
        1. +2
          2 December 2021 15: 06
          Quote: Operator
          Not solid - otherwise they would not have won.

          My comment was emotionally charged. Yours is sociologically tinged. You are certainly right. But we are talking about% ... As you know, one fly in the ointment spoils a barrel of honey. But can a capacity be considered a "barrel of honey", where 80% of the "village" and 20% of the townspeople? And what is this weird goo?
          1. 0
            2 December 2021 15: 45
            During the period of dominance of agrarians, the upper stratum of society (noblemen, party members) was at the helm.
            1. 0
              2 December 2021 17: 00
              Quote: Operator
              During the period of dominance of agrarians, the upper stratum of society (noblemen, party members) was at the helm.

              Exactly. Even the traditions in such a society are purely feudal. Instead of the previous titles - "title" - "Stalinist People's Commissar", "First Marshal", "Shock Worker of Labor", "Four Hundreds", etc. - and, accordingly, everyone has a different distribution of benefits. Plus registration - "people strong on the ground."
          2. 0
            2 December 2021 16: 26
            According to the 1939 census, the population of the country was 170,6 million people, including the urban population - 56,1 million people (33%).
            1. 0
              2 December 2021 16: 58
              This means that at that time two-thirds retained their former paternalistic psychology. And this is in conditions when all the development of the country has already passed into "ultra-imperialism" according to Hilferding or were close to it.
              1. 0
                2 December 2021 17: 05
                And how does this affect the technically armed army? And what effect does the "level of education and intelligence of the leadership" have on this, that despite the fact that two-thirds of the population retained the former paternalistic psychology, the country won the war?
                1. 0
                  2 December 2021 21: 28
                  It has a bad effect, although it won. The price of victory is millions of deaths.
                2. -1
                  2 December 2021 21: 32
                  No endurance, no physical strength, no herd and solidarity of mass struggle can give an advantage in the era of rapid-fire small-caliber rifles, machine guns, complex technical devices on ships, loose formation in land battles. IN AND. Lenin
                  And in order to manage all this, you need high intelligence, discipline and skills. And what are the skills of a rural boy who graduated from grade 4 and did not hold a tool in his hands more difficult than a shovel. No matter how you teach it, you cannot learn it quickly!
                  1. 0
                    3 December 2021 13: 55
                    Quote: kalibr
                    No matter how you teach it, you cannot learn it quickly!

                    Quote: kalibr
                    It has a bad effect, although it won. The price of victory is millions of deaths.

                    Do you have any cognitive dissonance from your words?
                    And yes, what would these "rapid-firing small-caliber rifles, machine guns, complex technical devices on ships," to make a "rural boy" the same need not be taught for 4 years ...
                    1. -1
                      3 December 2021 18: 07
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      Do you have any cognitive dissonance from your words?

                      Why should it have arisen? Everything, absolutely everything was done in a hurry, and you know the natural result.
                      1. 0
                        3 December 2021 18: 28
                        Quote: kalibr
                        you know the result.

                        Yes, it is known - despite the haste and lack of resources, a minimum of mistakes were made - hence the result. Victory in the Second World War ...
                        And by the way .. criticizing - suggest .... What is it, even based on knowledge after you, based on your education and level of intelligence, would advise the uneducated and intellectually underdeveloped leadership of the USSR to do so to avoid the "known result"?
                      2. -1
                        3 December 2021 22: 30
                        I would advise you not to use the wrong theory at all! Any action that is completely within the framework of incorrect goal setting will ultimately lead to negative consequences. Victory in the Second World War, and defeat in the "cold war", a statement about building the foundations of a communist society by the 80s and ... its complete collapse in the 91st. And all why? Because people live ... for a long time ... they manage to pass on their experience to their children and grandchildren, and nothing happens quickly. The slaves of 1861 raised ... slaves ... and only by 1961 could a generation of "non-slaves" appear. But it did not appear ... because of the war ... Of course, Lenin and others with him could not foresee it, but they could not understand that the petty-bourgeois psychology of 92% of the country's population was not obliged to them to curtail any revolutions. They decided to speed up the process, began to rush and ... what happened because of the rush we have already noted above, right?
                      3. 0
                        4 December 2021 05: 50
                        Quote: kalibr
                        I would advise you not to use the wrong theory at all!

                        Do you give me advice on the basis of paternalism? Let me be persistent and try to get an answer to my question from you? Although it will sound differently after your answer, the essence remains the same .... What was wrong "goal setting "the leadership of the USSR BEFORE the Second World War, where did it make mistakes in YOUR opinion? After all, if you see mistakes, then you can probably point out them and give your assessment of how it was necessary to act in fact to avoid" negative consequences "?
                        Quote: kalibr
                        and only by 1961 could a generation of "non-slaves" emerge. But it did not appear ... because of the war ..

                        It turns out that it turns out that the war was won by essentially free people? It turns out that the leadership still raised free people, or did they themselves originate in the river silt under the influence of the sun's rays?
                      4. 0
                        4 December 2021 12: 51
                        That's what you mean. The mistake was the 1926 decision to confront the Social Democrats. The term was created - social fascism. This led to war. But how ... to tell for a very long time. In fact, Aurora's shot itself was a mistake. He announced the beginning and he also announced the end, the end was only a matter of time.
                      5. 0
                        4 December 2021 12: 57
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But how ... to tell for a very long time.

                        And don't ... On the Internet, this fantasy nonsense ...
                      6. 0
                        4 December 2021 13: 05
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But how ... to tell for a very long time.

                        And don't ... On the Internet, this fantasy nonsense ...

                        This is not nonsense. If it were nonsense, we would still live in the USSR. At least this consideration is available to you ?.
                      7. 0
                        4 December 2021 13: 16
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Is an idea available to you ?.

                        Lenin's "considerations" are more accessible to me ... And you have not noticed either practice or theoretical sophistication in the theory of the development of society ...
                      8. 0
                        10 December 2021 11: 08
                        If Aurora's shot was a mistake and THIS was understood 100 years later, there is only one conclusion:
                        The mistake was that for decades they "slept and knew nothing" and did not correct them. Awesome .... They steal, gouged their own country, betrayed and sold everything that was possible and not allowed in 1991, shot down their legislative power in 1993 - and they talk with a blue eye about "Aurora's shot" ..... No words.
                      9. 0
                        10 December 2021 11: 27
                        Quote: ivan2022
                        The mistake was that for decades they "slept and knew nothing" and did not correct them. Awesome ... they got caught stealing, gouged their own country, betrayed and sold everything that was possible and not allowed in 1991, shot down their legislative power in 1993

                        How well you described the events that took place. Short and succinct. And the fact that they finally understood it ... better late than never!
                      10. 0
                        4 December 2021 13: 08
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        It turns out that the leadership still brought up free people,

                        It nourished not free people, but people who corresponded to the wrong theory chosen by him. Within the framework of this theory, they were free. Really, practically complete slaves.
                      11. 0
                        4 December 2021 13: 12
                        Quote: kalibr
                        and people who corresponded to the wrong theory chosen by him.

                        Do you really consider yourself a great theorist of the social development of society?
                  2. 0
                    8 December 2021 08: 48
                    Quote: kalibr
                    And in order to manage all this, you need high intelligence, discipline and skills. And what are the skills of a rural boy who graduated from grade 4 and did not hold a tool in his hands more difficult than a shovel. No matter how you teach it, you cannot learn it quickly!


                    "We won the war thanks to the village teacher" JV Stalin.
                    The fact of the matter is that the Stalinist USSR made a real breakthrough in terms of personnel training.
                    Thanks to this, we were able to create an excellent weapon, and prepare those who could use it.
                    Few western countries had as many flying clubs as the pre-war USSR. Thanks to this, we had no problems with training flight personnel. As soon as the problems with materiel were resolved, our Air Force showed real air power.
                    Unlike Germany, which seems to be an advanced Western power. It seemed like there were no problems with the production of aircraft, technologies were developing, but ... by the end of the war, there were not enough pilots. The Luftwaffe could no longer prepare a worthy replacement for the knocked-out "experts".
        2. 0
          8 December 2021 08: 54
          Quote: Operator
          The USSR in 1941 in terms of mentality, education and lifestyle of the majority of the population was still an agrarian country


          The best soldiers are country boys.
          Unpretentious, hardworking, accustomed to order.
          This was known in ancient Rome, and in the US Forse children of farmers are preferred.

          And what did we call the conscripts from the capital region? Man of the Moscow Region, in short ... well, you get the idea.
          1. 0
            8 December 2021 09: 17
            Yes, it is easier to drive the ignorant and put up with the tanks. But then? Do you know the anecdote about Stalin's biggest mistake, who walked in the USSR after the war? "Stalin's biggest mistake was that he showed the Soviet Vanya Europe, and Vanya - Europe!"
            1. 0
              8 December 2021 09: 25
              Quote: kalibr
              Yes, it is easier to drive the ignorant and put up with the tanks.


              You would be more delicate in terms ... thanks to these "ignoramuses" you exist in this world, otherwise ... where did Hitler drive the most "educated and intellectual"?
              Of course, the French are intelligent, but the proud nobles did not want to shove the German tanks too much ... the "Russian vans" had to strain themselves to pull them out from under the Teutonic boot. Wouldn't there have been Stalingrad and the Battle of Kursk - would Overlord have had many chances of success?

              Unlike you, I know that this is not an anecdote, but a phrase attributed to W. Churchill.
              1. 0
                9 December 2021 08: 05
                Quote: Illanatol
                thanks to these "ignorant" you exist in this world

                So what? Will you order me to hug half-drunk loaders just in case? Suddenly the Motherland will once again need them ... Dismiss. Yes, you yourself do not want to. And then ... You want to say that they, that is, these very "ignorant" won the war, right? And I will tell you in response to this that they fucked up the world, and this is much worse! Moreover, if Hitler lost the war back in 1939, then we lost our country in 1917. And all thanks to them, your "heroes".
                And what you know about Churchill ... happy for you. You should know something more than me. 100% erudites do not exist in nature.
          2. 0
            10 December 2021 13: 35
            Quote: Illanatol
            Quote: Operator
            The USSR in 1941 in terms of mentality, education and lifestyle of the majority of the population was still an agrarian country


            The best soldiers are country boys.
            Unpretentious, hardworking, accustomed to order.
            This was known in ancient Rome, and in the US Forse children of farmers are preferred.

            And what did we call the conscripts from the capital region? Man of the Moscow Region, in short ... well, you get the idea.

            You can’t still evaluate people as horses: "unpretentious" ...
            It's about agrarian psychology. About paternalism. The owner will order or even pay - master, Oath don't give a damn !! Then we will accept a new one. Such will be shot from a tank by the Congress of People's Deputies in the White House.
            "Unpretentious" ..... They bet on them.
    2. +3
      2 December 2021 15: 07
      Quote: Operator
      Some still (see the adjacent article in the section) remain mentally agrarians and emphasize conspiracy instead of relying on the objective situation in the leadership and mobility of the USSR in 1941

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  15. +1
    2 December 2021 21: 39
    A common problem for the USSR was that a tunnel was cut in an absolutely untouched rock. Not only did no one walk this path, no one thought that it was possible to go through here at all. The construction of an absolutely new type of state was going on in a mad rush - they almost did not have time, and the end of everything. Death of millions of people, death, destruction. The country was saved. But the price ...
    Stalin was a genius. And he masterfully, with fantastic efficiency, steered the whole colossus in manual mode. Having found a person capable of handling a separate area of ​​government, Stalin loaded and loaded on him, because the country demanded, but there was no one else! During the Second World War, cocaine was prescribed to individual shots as a medicine "to increase their efficiency." And the efficiency increased, so much so that people fell at the workplace, and just died.
    They managed to achieve incredible results. But the school of management was not born. Searching for geniuses of different fields in a huge country, and then destroying them with superloads is not a method, it is a disaster. Which happened when Stalin weakened. Despite the fact that almost all the people supported this leap, and people were ready to plow and plow ...
    In this particular case, the most correct solution was to create centers that would provide training in management techniques. The bitter irony is that the best training method was (and is) the overload method - the trainee is bombed around the clock, subjecting him to changes to the point of endurance. Some people are eliminated, and this is just great - these people will not destroy their subordinates, they will not have such an opportunity, and they themselves will not be shot, an easier job will be selected. And the part will change. And you can't drive these into a panic, you can't put them into a stupor, but you just can't scare them to the point of losing their thoughts.
    Alas. To begin with, one had to know that such training is generally possible. And in the thirties they just shot the guys who were trying to create a "universal science" - a synergistic complex of knowledge and skills. Well, now don't replay.
    1. 0
      4 December 2021 15: 22
      What a good comment you wrote. I didn't know about cocaine at all ... Where is it from, I wonder?
  16. 0
    4 December 2021 15: 20
    Quote: mat-vey
    Do you really consider yourself a great theorist of the social development of society?

    Having studied at a humanitarian university, specialized postgraduate study, having studied Lenin's PSS, "Short Course", Trotsky's book "Revolution Betrayed", books by J. Orwell, materials of all congresses and plenums of the CPSU, having devoted 9 years to teaching the history of the CPSU and 23 years of social and humanitarian disciplines in University, having written a textbook on the technology of public opinion management for the Higher School, yes, I think that I understand this problem better than you, dear Matvey.
    1. 0
      5 December 2021 07: 13
      What, again, advice on the basis of paternalism? We are really orphaned and miserable and did not finish gymnasiums (the pages are really the same), but everything that you "studied" had the same places, but with good teachers ... ... I had to "vegetate" in a scientific institute - I saw how a headache, despite the "degree", "understands the problem" in comparison with subordinates .... yes, his signature, in spite of this, is always the first ...
      1. 0
        5 December 2021 07: 51
        Quote: mat-vey
        in some places it was necessary

        The key words are "in places" and "vegetate", but you need a system and years and much more to "not vegetate", and a good teacher is not a guarantee that the student is also good. It happens "not in the horse feed".
        Quote: mat-vey
        I saw how the headache, despite the "degree", "understands the problem" in comparison with subordinates

        This example just shows your wretchedness of thinking. There were many of them. But not all. Otherwise, as you write, and others - today we would not "eat up the legacy of the USSR." There were all sorts. The question is again in% ... and those and others. A society where there is more negative% is falling apart. Where% is less - it is worth despite all its shortcomings!
        1. 0
          5 December 2021 08: 02
          Quote: kalibr
          It happens "not in the horse feed".

          This is the exact point ...
          1. 0
            5 December 2021 08: 12
            Quote: mat-vey
            This is the exact point ...

            Do not try, Matvey, to lure knowledge with your wit. I am not reading you here, but you are reading me. And you will! But I am not destined to read your works!
            1. 0
              5 December 2021 08: 15
              Quote: kalibr
              and you me.

              What makes you think? I have nothing to "read" from you ...
              1. 0
                5 December 2021 08: 26
                Quote: mat-vey
                What makes you think? I have nothing to "read" from you ...

                Do you want to say that you have not read any of my material here? Let me not believe it. You can even find your comments under them. But too lazy to waste time on a fool.
                1. 0
                  5 December 2021 08: 29
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Let me disbelieve.

                  and you are funny ... you just read some one - that's why there is nothing more ... but I read comments, sometimes ... it can be interesting there ... I confess.
      2. 0
        5 December 2021 07: 56
        Quote: mat-vey
        We are really orphaned and miserable and did not finish our gymnasiums (the pages' buildings are really the same)

        That's noticeable. But this is not your fault, but a misfortune. The fault is that you do not know your place with your judgments. This is already the fault. And instead of eliminating the lack of reading, you persist in vain attempts to prove something to me ... And this is useless, just as it is useless for me to explain the law of relativity to children in the sandbox. state and law "," Motherland "," VIZH ", there is a lot of useful and interesting things there and it develops well ...
        1. 0
          5 December 2021 08: 04
          Quote: kalibr
          That's noticeable

          This is a quote from Ilf and Petrov ... so it is also noticeable ...
          Quote: kalibr
          And this is useless, as well as explaining the law of relativity to children in a sandbox for me ..

          First, to understand what others "taught" for 9 years ...
          1. 0
            5 December 2021 08: 14
            Quote: mat-vey
            First, to understand what others "taught" for 9 years ...

            Understood, Matvey, otherwise the Soviet Higher Attestation Commission would not have awarded me a Ph.D. degree. Just do not write about "buy at the entrance". This was not practiced at the time.
            1. 0
              5 December 2021 08: 16
              Quote: kalibr
              Understood, Matvey, otherwise the Soviet Higher Attestation Commission would not have awarded me a Ph.D. degree.

              But now they even had fun ...
              1. 0
                5 December 2021 08: 21
                Quote: mat-vey
                But now they even had fun ...

                And you are even more stupid than you seem. Again, everything was. But not for the periphery, assistants with a penny salary, but for big party and business leaders. It was very difficult for ordinary teachers to get access to the feeding trough. And there is no need to write about what you personally do not know. Good? Hearsay stories expose low intelligence. Can I explain it easily?
                1. +1
                  5 December 2021 08: 26
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And you are even more stupid than you seem.

                  Oh, everything ... I'm going to do hara-kiri ...
                  1. 0
                    5 December 2021 08: 28
                    It is easier to read the magazines Voprosy istorii, History of the Russian State and Law, Rodina, VIZH ...
                    1. 0
                      5 December 2021 08: 36
                      it's easier not to give advice to strangers ...
  17. 0
    8 December 2021 08: 20
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    There was a mess. The lack of experienced personnel played a big role.


    And they could not be enough in any case, given the rapid growth in the number of the Red Army.
    Yes, it happened that the wrong people got into the camps. But they also cleaned up a lot of potential traitors and slobs.
    And how quickly the Armed Forces can decompose if there is no supervision, was clearly shown by the "turbulent 90s".
  18. +2
    8 December 2021 08: 28
    Quote: kalibr
    It brought up not free people, but people who corresponded to the wrong theory chosen by him. Within the framework of this theory, they were free. Really, practically complete slaves.


    Name a socio-economic system in which people would not be "slaves to the system."
    There are no such systems. Any society is a mechanism, the more it is debugged, the less degrees of freedom its constituent "elements" have. Either you fit into the system, accepting its rules and laws, or you are rejected.
    The Western system was a more perfect example of totalitarianism, and therefore won.

    The problem of the USSR is precisely that it failed to educate the majority of citizens who correspond to its ideological paradigm. They wanted to educate the Soviet people, but got "sovoks", who are currently reforged in their mass into democrats and liberals, having changed the cover for their petty bourgeois essence.
  19. 0
    8 December 2021 08: 34
    Quote: Mikhail3
    In this particular case, the most correct solution was to create centers that would provide training in management techniques.


    Alas, the main problem was not in the area of ​​management, everything is much deeper.
    Worldview (not ideology!), Value system, life motivation.
    It was here that socialism suffered its most crushing defeat. Resisting entropy in its social manifestation is very difficult, but going with the flow is easy and pleasant.

    Ultimately, socialism was beaten by canaries, as V. Mayakovsky prophetically wrote.
  20. 0
    8 December 2021 08: 40
    Quote: kalibr
    I would advise you not to use the wrong theory at all!


    But you yourself argue using the clichés of Marxism-Leninism.
    Your past is immediately clear, "you won't spend on drink" drinks
    You are categorically wrong about the "petty-bourgeois nature" of the Russian peasantry. And references to Lenin will not fail, Lenin was also mistaken.
    1. 0
      8 December 2021 09: 20
      Quote: Illanatol
      Lenin was also wrong.

      And only Anatoly was right!
    2. 0
      8 December 2021 09: 21
      Quote: Illanatol
      But you yourself argue using the clichés of Marxism-Leninism.

      And what other cliches can be used when evaluating this theory? Zen Buddhism?
  21. 0
    8 December 2021 13: 32
    Quote: kalibr

    And only Anatoly was right!


    Prove otherwise. By the way, how did these very "petty-bourgeois" peasants feel about the free sale of land? Were all unequivocally in favor or not?
    However, for the "petty-bourgeois element" there could be no two opinions on this issue.
    But there was still no unanimity.
    Lenin, let me remind you, asserted that "the petty-bourgeois element continuously gives rise to capitalism."
    However, such an element has existed for millennia, but capitalism was generated not so long ago and in a few countries, as a result of the action of many objective and subjective factors. For more details, see M. Weber.
    So Ilyich was sometimes wrong, alas. Like Marx and Engels. But, unlike others, he was able to admit his mistakes when they became obvious to him.
  22. 0
    8 December 2021 13: 34
    Quote: kalibr

    And what other cliches can be used when evaluating this theory? Zen Buddhism?


    Have you tried to refrain from clichés? With your words, your judgments, not being like the famous feathered ...
  23. 0
    10 December 2021 13: 52
    Quote: kalibr
    And I will tell you in response to this that they pissed away the world, and this is much worse! And if Hitler lost the war back in 1939, then we lost our country in 1917.


    And in 1917 it was not the proletarians who were in power, and it was not they who profiled the empire. Just educated and refined aristocrats and bourgeois. That in the tsarist government, that in the Provisional.
    It was not communism, not its ideology that brought the USSR to the zugunder, but just the rejection of it.
    At first, the USSR abandoned its ideology, and only then the USSR collapsed.
    Those who betray their foundations are simply bound to fail and doomed to collapse.
    This is a lesson to be learned from the collapse of the Russian Empire and the USSR.
  24. 0
    10 December 2021 14: 01
    Quote: ivan2022

    You can’t still evaluate people as horses: "unpretentious" ...
    It's about agrarian psychology. About paternalism. The owner will order or even pay - master, Oath don't give a damn !! Then we will accept a new one. Such will be shot from a tank by the Congress of People's Deputies in the White House.
    "Unpretentious" ..... They bet on them.


    From what? We, humans, are also living beings, not incorporeal angels.
    We can be unpretentious, or we can be capricious and infantile.

    And what does all this have to do with agrarian psychology? Mercenaries will also unquestioningly carry out any order, they do not care who they serve, but no one in the "agrarians" records mercenaries.
    How difficult it is to write down in the "agrarian" and some of the then "masters of culture" who squealed with delight when tanks fired at the parliament (Makarevich was especially remembered as the spitting image of the granddaughter of Valeria Novodvorskaya). Is this also a burp of paternalism or something else?

    So by the box office, specifically.
  25. 0
    10 December 2021 17: 44
    author! Don't write nonsense! "... the pilots managed to dive into their positions ..." In the aviation of the Red Army on June 22, 1941, NOBODY knew how to dive on a bomber !!! They were wildly afraid. Even in 1945, only one in five knew how to dive !!!
  26. 0
    10 December 2021 17: 47
    The mess in the Red Army was terrible and there were a lot of reasons for that. ...

    Reading the same Guderian, who methodically and consistently built the tank forces of Germany almost since the end of the First World War (and even if there were no tanks yet, but the theory of their use on ersatz was already being worked out with might and main), you understand why he was kicked only near Tula in the winter of 41 th, and not at the border in the 20th of June ...