"PM is morally obsolete" - a media source explains the transition of the Ministry of Internal Affairs to the Lebedev pistol

Law enforcement agencies continue the transition to a new short-barreled rifle weapon... The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation is no exception in this regard.

According to the latest information, the structures belonging to the Ministry of Internal Affairs are being rearmed, switching to a new pistol instead of the "obsolete" PM (Makarov pistol). It is these interpretations in relation to the PM that are used as argumentation for rearmament by a media source.

A new pistol for the structures of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, as reported RIA News, becomes the Lebedev pistol (PLC). As noted, the choice fell on this weapon due to the fact that it is compact.

Previously, all the necessary tests were carried out in relation to the PLC, after which it was adopted by the ministry.

The PLC manufacturer is the Kalashnikov concern, whose share in the domestic arms market continues to grow.

The Lebedev self-loading pistol is designed for a 9x19 mm cartridge. The barrel length in the basic version is 92 mm, the pistol width is 28 mm, the pistol height is 130 mm, the weight is 710 g. For comparison: the barrel length of the Makarov pistol is 93,5 mm, the height is 126,75 mm, weight (without cartridges ) - 730 g. At least in terms of height, the PLC is still not as compact as the same PM.

It should be noted that the PLC ammunition store is designed for 14 rounds, and the PM - for 8. The Lebedev pistol has the ability to install additional equipment, including an underbarrel flashlight.

Comments

[Victor_B]

"PM is morally obsolete" - a media source explains the transition of the Ministry of Internal Affairs to the Lebedev pistol

For-dol-ba-li!
Colt M 1911 - "morally" not outdated in 110 years, and Makarov outdated in fifty years?
Weapons are matched to the task!
It's just time to re-equip the army and the cops.
Bullet-proof vests can now be bought in bakeries.
Will the PLC be many times more convenient than the PM?
At times will not be.
But he will be able to break through PPE from close distances.
Although it will not seem a little when hitting a bulletproof vest and without breaking through!
Around the year 77, a friend of the Moreman told me how they accidentally came under firefight at the Malay Bazaar in Singapore.
Around the corner, shooting began and they witnessed how the body armor was removed from the policeman.
There was no penetration.
But the whole side was just blue, almost black!
The man could hardly move!
So - if from the PM arrives in the vest, then it is quite possible to call in to the hospital ...

[Grandfather]

yes norms "Makar" in the city. "stops" at a time, what is needed then?

[Old tanker]

Exactly! Why would an ordinary policeman hang a flashlight or an LCU on a pistol? This will never happen in ordinary service. Yes, and 14 rounds on the battlefield is a plus, but in the police service are there often long firefights? Almost never. The PLC barrel is shorter, the cartridge is more powerful, the mass is the same as that of the PM. I would like to know what is with the impact? PM has a problem with this. The skill in shooting from it is the key to success. I would like to know how the PLC is in this regard.
It seems that the money that could be spent more effectively on the transition in the police from PM to PLC.

[soul]

Quote: Old Tankman

It seems that the money that could be spent more effectively on the transition in the police from PM to PLC

You better do not touch the "money" - everything is correctly distributed there, between the correct offices

[raw174]

Quote: Old Tankman

Why would an ordinary policeman hang a flashlight or an LCU on a pistol?

In the police, weapons are sometimes used by the traffic police, the rest do not really need them ...

[Horus]

Hello, do you have any relation to the Ministry of Internal Affairs? Or so that he came up with and wrote?

[Snail N9]

Melkan (hits accurately and without much recoil) and hit in the face. No armor will save you.

[Alex777]

Quote: Old Tankman

Exactly! Why would an ordinary policeman hang a flashlight or an LCU on a pistol?

And if some kind of turmoil starts in battle with the PM will they go?
Let them get used to normal weapons in advance.
I'm not talking about well-fed traffic police, of course.
There are normal fighters both in the police and in the National Guard.

[Old tanker]

And if some kind of turmoil starts in battle with the PM, they will go

This is what kind of battles do the police go to? Say more to the attack with a pistol at the ready. Or such a picture: cops are sitting in the trenches with pistols, and on them tanks and motorized infantry with the support of artillery and aviation. And then they take out "normal" pistols and, letting them get closer, knock everyone down.
What nonsense ?!
Even during the hostilities in Chechnya, cops with machine guns walked around. If anyone had a pistol, then in the appendage, as they say.

[Alex777]

Or such a picture: cops are sitting in the trenches with pistols, and on them tanks and motorized infantry with the support of artillery and aviation.

What nonsense ?!

Themselves fantasized, and answer your own delirium.
I didn't write anything about pistols and trenches.
As he did not write that there should be only pistols.

Quote: Old Tankman

Even during the hostilities in Chechnya, cops with machine guns walked around. If anyone had a pistol, then in the appendage, as they say.

My good friends have been to Chechnya many times.
I know how it was ...

[Volkof]

Have you ever fired a PM? Have you seen enough movies? PM is not a pistol, you can only shoot with it, hammer in nails and spoil clothes ... You will not hit the target from 20 meters ... - minimal result ...

[Mik13]

Quote: Volkof

Have you ever fired a PM? Have you seen enough movies? PM is not a pistol, you can only shoot with it, hammer in nails and spoil clothes ... You will not hit the target from 20 meters ... - minimal result ...

Come on) I shot. From 25 meters on target number 4 (chest with circles) less than 24 did not knock out even once.
And it must be borne in mind that 25 meters is a long way for a pistol. The usual range for a pistol is 7-10 meters. And at such distances there are no questions at all to the PM.
In addition, the PM is a very reliable and safe pistol, which, unlike some samples, can be safely carried loaded - that is, with a cartridge in the chamber.

[raw174]

Quote: Volkof

spoil ... you will not hit the target from 20 meters ... In army competitions, after shooting from the PM at a sports target, half of the participants drop out of the competition, and the rest have a minimum result ...

It's a matter of skill. I know a guy who is from 25 m from PM-9 mm. knocks out at least 70 out of 80 on a sports target, almost everything falls at 10. But he is a master of sports in shooting))) I shoot myself tolerably, but still the PM is specific, in order to shoot it well, constant practice is needed, which is not in the Armed Forces or in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. So, again, it's not about the gun, it's about the skills of the shooter.

[Alexfly]

YOU answer that from 20 meters you will get from the CZ into a circle of 15 cm 3 out of 5 shots in 10 seconds? Is it a Voroshilov shooter, by chance? And then try ... From the PM from 10 meters, everyone is in black, and for more he is not designed, as, incidentally, Lebedev ...

[Old electrician]

PM is not a pistol, you can only shoot yourself from it, hammer in nails and spoil clothes ...

- a good dancer ...

[Victorio]

Quote: Volkof

.You will miss the target from 20 meters.

===
you are exaggerating, standard 25 m on target 4, valid 3 out of 5 hits

[Sandro1977]

Modern siz hold both 9x18 and 9x19 ...

[Victor_B]

Quote: Sandro1977

Modern siz hold both 9x18 and 9x19 ...

Hold.
An analogy will be - if you put a chisel to the vest and, with all the foolishness, from a turn, hit with a large sledgehammer.
Your carcass will be VERY delighted with such a shake-up!

[Old tanker]

Do we have hoolugans all over the streets in armored vehicles?

[Victor_B]

Quote: Old Tanker

Do we have hoolugans all over the streets in armored vehicles?

Here I am about the same!
Makar still live and live!

[Cowbra]

Like a fountain pen with an inkwell. Technology sank far ahead. And the PM is inconvenient at least with a round trigger guard - not suitable for every grip. Zero centering - all weight in the fist. throws almost vertically when fired. And as for the accuracy ... It's about him - "I would have shot myself if I were you - if you were in my place, I would have missed!"

[Alexfly]

Shoot from TT, you will learn to hold Makarych in your hand))

[Cowbra]

Dear, I have been engaged in bullet shooting from the 6th grade to the stop, and I shot from the Makarov for sure more often than you saw him.
And TT is inconvenient to hiccups, especially when the hands are large

[Alexfly]

This means that my hand is smaller ... In the meantime, the police-militia officers shoot in the offsets with one hand, exactly like the army men, so the round bracket of the PM does not count, bullet gun ..

[Cowbra]

Quote: AlexFly

In the meantime, police-militia officers are shooting on tests

... I've seen how. He fired for the fifth time, not like in the scoring zone - he never hit the shield. No, this, of course, is a rarity, but in general, almost everyone has it below the plinth.
And offset-offset, but with two hands, with any grip, it is more convenient to shoot. And with a two-handed makar, count one - the left hand is from below, a fist with a pistol is placed on it ... Not everyone is so comfortable

[raw174]

Quote: Cowbra

And with a two-handed makar, count one - the left hand from below, a fist with a pistol is placed on it.

I take a slightly different grip, the left one is slightly below, the thumbs are next to each other, parallel to the hold. my height is 195 cm and the brushes are quite large, I press the trigger with the second phalanx, from that I twist, the bullets often fall for 5 hours ... So for me personally, Makar is not very convenient, but I do not manage to shoot often, although I like it ...

[Cowbra]

Quote: raw174

thumbs are next to each other

... the left one is slightly ahead. index finger - in front of the bracket. This is what we are talking about, that under such a grip Makar slips like soap in the shower. And on Lebedev there is a notch with ribs. It is just the practical arrows that they praise this grip, I have the one that I described, I started shooting a long time ago, then there were no square brackets anywhere)

[Cowbra]

Quote: raw174

I press the second phalanx on the trigger

Fir-trees, I have a return line - with a nail phalanx, next to the fold, as much as a dent on it, like from the handle of those. who often writes) Therefore, the trigger hook in sports had to be undermined to the point of trouble, well, it was easier for us there - even shoot inside out, there is a result - do not care. With the fighting, however, then suffered. It's just that I have had an injury on my arm for a long time, it comes out so smoothly for me

[raw174]

Quote: AlexFly

In the meantime, police-militia officers shoot in the offsets with one hand, exactly like the army men

No. Free grip on offsets, at least now. Almost everyone is shooting with two hands. At departmental competitions, as far as I know, there are disciplines with shooting with one hand.

[Cowbra]

Previously, they really had a shooting stand, I myself saw how one was chased, and not for a two-handed grip, but that facing the target, and not sideways. They shot their standards.

[Old tanker]

In the Armed Forces, since the zero years on the shooting. Including free test grip. As convenient as it is, shoot. The main thing is without violating safety requirements. But I, for example, as from the age of cadets, filled my hand in a classical stance, so I did the course exercise with one hand. It turned out more precisely than with two. But if with movement, then with two. Since the breath has no time to calm down.

[Cowbra]

Well, let me tell those for Sofrinka, if Nina, then ODON, not on the rapids, but on the line, eh?) Not for that, chito schA, if yu know, here ah min?

[Cowbra]

Quote: Old Tankman

It turned out more precisely than with two.

Any pistol-bullet will explain this to you, with two hands - hands are always tense, and even the slightest muscle tension ... A little. but pulls the gun. One-handed grip - the hand is relaxed. Yes, in fact, and on this occasion there is a rule - inhale-half exhale - and you have five seconds. I didn't have time - put the gun on the table and pick it up again.

[raw174]

Quote: Victor_B

So - if from the PM arrives in the vest, then it is quite possible to call in to the hospital ...

The Russian police use PPO ammunition for PM. When firing from 10 m., The bullet of this supply does not always pierce the tire on the flight, through the cord. This is a cartridge of reduced power.

[Alexfly]

do you mean reduced power?

[Obliterator]

Quote: AlexFly

do you mean reduced power?

No, it's just a lead core, and the shape of the bullet is slightly different.

[raw174]

Quote: Obliterator

, just a lead core, and the shape of the bullet is slightly different.

There is no core, a lead bullet, in a sheath, the weight of gunpowder is also reduced. The muzzle velocity of the bullet is lower than the 315 m / s stated in the TTX. In general, in all respects, the PPO (patron of law enforcement agencies) is inferior to the army. This was not done by chance, the police do not need ammunition piercing armor (if anything, there is an AKSU), it is necessary to reduce the likelihood of a ricochet, less load on the pistol, more its resource.

[Obliterator]

Quote: raw174

There is no core, the bullet is lead, in a shell, the weight of gunpowder is also reduced. The muzzle velocity of the bullet is lower than the 315 m / s declared in the TTX.

This means that the core is lead. The weight of gunpowder is the same as that of the army, it's just that for the army, a better quality gunpowder is used, which gives more speed.

[raw174]

Quote: Obliterator

This means that the core is lead.

Well, probably you can say that ...

Quote: Obliterator

The weight of gunpowder is the same as that of the army

I personally did not weigh, about this I was enlightened by a shooter - an athlete from the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Having rummaged a little on the net, literally a couple of minutes, I found that initially this supply had a sample of gunpowder - 0,25 g, and for PPO 0,22 - 0,23 g.

Quote: Obliterator

Army men use better quality gunpowder, which gives more speed.

Maybe this is the case ... But the fact that the PPO has a shot and weaker recoil is a fact.

[Obliterator]

Quote: raw174

Having rummaged a little on the net, literally for a couple of minutes, I found that initially this supply had a sample of gunpowder - 0,25 g, and for PPO 0,22 - 0,23 g.

I also decided to dig in and found that the matter is not in the mass, but in the fact that the packing density of the army is almost one and a half times higher - 0,45 g / cm3 versus 0,32 for the PPO Mark of gunpowder. An army cartridge has a cylindrical shape of gunpowder granules with a channel, a policeman has a spherical shape or so. Cylindrical with a channel has a progressive release of gases during combustion, which gives a uniform increase in the speed of acceleration of the bullet along the barrel.

Quote: raw174

Maybe this is the case ... But the fact that the PPO has a shot and weaker recoil is a fact.

I didn’t believe it, but when I called an expert at the EKTs with almost 30 years of service, and whose main specialization is ballistic expertise, he confirmed it.

[hrych]

Quote: Victor_B

But he will be able to break through PPE from close distances.

There is no need to change the product, no need to change the standard of the cartridge and switch to a flawed Nazi cartridge, for which there is also a short stroke of the barrel, which reduces reliability by an order of magnitude and increases the cost, dimensions and weight. When, simply, an armor-piercing PM cartridge is taken and that's it, no SIZ will help. And these scum and bribed generals are simply lobbying for rearmament, because the PM is durable, it simply does not fail, and its reserves in gunsmiths and in storage are enormous. Initially, these rascals wanted to enter the Western market with their standards and dump. Yeah, now, that's how they were allowed in. These are the tales of Gaidar (fat and adopted son) about the fair market. They have broken off with the currency and tyrannize their fighters with this muck. The patron of the losers in the war is imposed. And the PM and APS cartridge are made taking into account the experience of the two world wars. Change PM only for a blaster, and not like that, and even worse. The US Army has been in a fever with post-war rearmaments all these years. Colt did it in Vietnam (with an even worse Nazi, patron standard), Beretta in Iraq and Afghanistan, now here is Sauer. And these machines are not so guilty as the defective standard of the Nazis with too powerful a cartridge, that the product is heavy, buggy and breaks, leaving the cemetery.

[Region-25.rus]

switch to a defective Nazi patron

Well, if in truth the cartridge is of course German but not Nazi))) Even in PMV it was used on the brainchild of Hugo Schmeisser MR-18 in the assault divisions of the Reichswehr (or whatever it was called in PMV)

[hrych]

_------------------------------

[Region-25.rus]

of course I am aware that the TT-shny cartridge grows from the Mauser 7,63

[Alexfly]

The local gunsmiths didn’t have enough of a cartridge to finalize, make different bullets like that for it, the Mauser cartridge is still flailing in a wrong way ...

[hrych]

Firstly, the caliber 7,62 of the TT cartridge does not grow from the 7,63 Mauser cartridge, but from the 7,62 rifle cartridge for Mosinka and the revolving cartridge, which at one time were also unified. Therefore, to call the TT cartridge Mauser, of course, is incorrect. Therefore, your inappropriate speech speaks more about the state of your

little mind

.

[Alexfly]

What are you smoking, Bastard? Throw this nasty thing .. Immediately !!

[hrych]

You didn `t know. that we have rifle (machine gun), revolving and pistol cartridges of the same caliber 7,62? You do not know. that the automatic cartridge AK and RPD. adopted after the war, too, caliber 7.62? Yes, you, my friend, are illiterate, but you try to comment. One can feel the maidan of the brain. Go, dear man, in peace, teach calibers and you will die wise .

[Alexfly]

And you, dear fellow, measure the trunks first with a caliper, before assuring nonsense ...

[hrych]

In general, it is funny to me when the staff-policeman PM and his cartridge are compared and judged with army pistols. PM fully copes with its task. Compare with APS then. He implements this standard of the cartridge 100%. Restore the production of APS and do not indulge in foolishness, learn from the mistakes of the Wehrmacht and the United States with all NATO, which continue to suffer with this Luger dung. The APS itself was not widespread due to the AK and its modifications, which were also used by the crews of vehicles of all environments. The pilots held out for the longest time and again they are using the AK modification (ppk-20). But the APS is still a submachine gun in the dimensions of a pistol and will always be lighter, more compact and more reliable.

[SSA]

APS has not gained distribution because it is "not fish, not meat." It is completely uncomfortable as a pistol at short distances, and ABSOLUTELY loses to any submachine gun, starting even with the lightest - CEDR.

The APS cannot be compared with the nuclear submarine, the latter is more convenient, and the accuracy is higher ... in the entire APS it is worse.

[hrych]

First of all, the nuclear submarine must prove its suitability. Neither PM nor APS has nothing to prove. I repeat, the APS objectively did not go due to the modifications of the AK (folding and shortened). With regards to pilots, try to shove them a lousy Cedar. Cedar is not a pistol and an under-automatic. This is really not fish or meat. It is simply a shame to compare it with the APS. Especially with an aiming range of 50 meters versus 200 for the APS. The cedar is a disgrace. Dragunov (the father of a powerful rifle) is undoubtedly a genius, but there was already an old, seventy-year-old grandfather, and the topic was not his. This is accepted in timelessness. A separate topic. And APS is both fish and meat. And a wonderful army pistol and submachine gun with a holster, well, or with a stock for the APB series. The special forces clutch them with their teeth, if they get it and try to take it away.

[Terran ghost]

Especially with an aiming range of 50 meters versus 200 for APS

The "Kedr" PP-91 and APS have the same cartridge and approximately the same barrel length.
Sighting range is just the maximum range at which the sight of a weapon is marked. This does not mean that at this very "maximum range of sight markings" from the weapon you can at least hit something. The Mauser S96 pistol won, in general, the sight was marked as much as 1000 meters. The bullet really lost its destructive power much earlier.

[hrych]

In fact, the APS has a barrel 2 centimeters longer than the Cedar. Barrel length Mauser and APS are the same 140 mm. Coincidence? I do not think. Stechkin with a holster-butt and a barrel length was guided by the Mauser. Therefore, with the aiming, maximum and effective range, everything is in order.

[SSA]

Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about.

1. Special forces who use pistols (Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Guard), as you put it, APS do not like. This is not a special forces weapon at all! These are stories. APS is bulky, it is very inconvenient for them to work "short-circuited". It is not convenient to detain a criminal, physically, without using a weapon, when this fool (APS) dangles in your hand, it is not convenient to abruptly change the vector of fire, because APS is heavy and inconvenient to hold, it creates a strong pendulum effect when changing the vector, as a result what happens is the "carrying" of the barrel past the target, and a very long barrel makes a "nod", in addition, this long barrel is dangerous, because if an outside clash comes, at 1-2 meters, the offender can grab it. Yes, it is stupidly inconvenient to even rest on the back when you do the inspection (although this is prohibited).

2. The special forces of the Ministry of Defense, in general, extremely rarely use pistols, many, in combat conditions, have never even taken them into their hands. And the military has always considered the APS as a misunderstanding. Carrying this fool, in a war, in the mountains, in addition to the reinforced ammo, to the AK, to the GP-25, grenades, VOGs ... it quickly passes. For silent fire, PB has always been preferred.

3. Never, no one uses APS with a stock! To use a pistol with a stock, you have to walk with a stock! I want to see a fool who will refuse a machine gun or a submachine gun, but will carry a pistol with a fastened stock.

4. Forget these fables about 200 meters. These are single shots, from a rigid position, with even breathing. So no one uses submachine guns.

5. From lousy, as you said, KEDR, in 4 seconds, in bursts of 3-5 shots, I thrust the entire 30-round magazine from 10-15 meters. And more is not necessary.

[hrych]

Quote: SSA

APS is heavy and uncomfortable

But, but, especially when the mass is equal to the same Beretta and all Yarygin. The submarine is waiting for their fate, they were pushed into service, and then they will be sent to collectors, trailmen, etc. Cedar, of course, from the traffic cops and collectors, no one else is really needed. And it is strange to talk about the severity of the APS, when the Cedar is one and a half times heavier. Be consistent. Discuss with this citizen on MTA issues

[Terran ghost]

Forget these fables about 200 meters. These are single shots, from a rigid position, with even breathing.

And also at the shooting range. And yes, often an extremely important reservation is made in this case - "with the use of a holster-butt."

[hrych]

It should be admired when the holster is functional and with a light movement, turns the pistol into something more, and on the contrary you are lamenting. Where the world is heading

[SSA]

Quote: hrych

But, but, especially when the mass is equal to the same Beretta

APS is both longer and heavier than Beretta 92, the Beretta has better balance and higher combat performance.

Quote: hrych

And it is strange to talk about the severity of the APS, when the Cedar is one and a half times heavier

Really weird. APS is a bulky, not very convenient pistol that can conduct automatic fire, but is not intended for this, and CEDR is a compact submachine gun DESIGNED for automatic fire, 1000 rounds / minute. Why would it be easier for CEDAR? It's not a gun!

Quote: hrych

Of course, the cedar is from the traffic cops and collectors, no one else is needed for the spirit

Again, not true. KEDR was ordered by the Ministry of Internal Affairs, for the OMON SOBR and OVO, since, at a distance of 5 to 25 meters, the PM and APS did not allow to reliably hit well-armed criminals, including automatic fire. And the AKS-74U assault rifle was inconvenient, heavy, had a wide spread when firing bursts, gave dangerous ricochets indoors and an excessive bullet range, that is, unsafe.

In general, I do not understand the skeptical shouts towards KEDR. Lightweight, simple, reliable, cheap to manufacture, compact to carry and handle. And at the same time, a fast-firing and extremely deadly machine at a distance of 10 meters, when firing in short but fast bursts of lead, it stuffs ... no PM and APS stood nearby.

[raw174]

Quote: SSA

Lightweight, simple, reliable, cheap to manufacture, compact to carry and handle.

Everything is so, except for reliability ... with shooting and wear and tear, Cedar sometimes loses parts when firing ... In particular, I personally saw how after 4-6 shots the receiver cover flew off ...

[Alexfly]

Well, our AK had an aiming range of 1000 meters, so what? They christened the girl a frog, it doesn't mean that she will become a princess .... train from 50 meters to hit the head on the run .. and further

[Alexfly]

And what, in the APS cartridges do not go crazy?

[raw174]

Quote: hrych

no need to change the standard of the cartridge and switch to a flawed Nazi cartridge

I am not a historian, but as far as is known, our 9x18 cartridge was created on the basis of the German 9x18 ...

[hrych]

The end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century was marked by the use of all kinds of cartridge standards. And it's not about originality. The German cartridge 9x18 does not correspond to the PM, both in real, true caliber and case size.

[Alexfly]

true caliber is what, clarify

[Maz]

That's right, the performance characteristics are almost the same, but the store is almost twice as large. Change gradually and the mustache will be good

[military_cat]

Quote: Victor_B

Colt M 1911 - for 110 years "morally" is not obsolete

A strong statement, he has no self-cocking. This is a gun for lovers of antiquity and aesthetes.

[Alex777]

Quote: military_cat

A strong statement, he has no self-cocking.

This is nonsense, not a statement.
Nowhere is it in service. If only in Africa.
8 rounds is not an option in our time at all.
And the Colt 1911's weight doesn't help either.

[Alexfly]

Pop from Zaur by self-cocking, you will understand that this is a necessary thing, but not really ...

[military_cat]

I see no reason to argue that all modern pistols have self-cocking (DA) or only self-cocking (DAO).

[Barberry25]

this is called morally obsolete - in itself that the Colt 1911, that the PM, that the TT are normal pistols, but modern requirements include a powerful cartridge and large ammunition + the ability to install various sights .. So the Nagant revolver is good, but not for 2021

[Letun]

I don't understand at all this beautiful phrase "obsolete" in relation to weapons.
The understanding that it is bad to have sex before marriage is morally outdated ... But how can a pistol become morally obsolete? Technically, I understand. But morally?

[Alex777]

Quote: Letun

But how can a pistol become morally obsolete? Technically, I understand. But morally?

Makarov is not happy. It means it is morally outdated.

[Vladimir_2U]

"PM is obsolete"

Can not argue with that!

[Victor_B]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Can not argue with that!

What about the Colt M 1911?
If cho - so 1911 is the year of issue!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Victor_B

What about the Colt M 1911?
If cho - so 1911 is the year of issue!

What? "Colt"? And many police will name where he, all so morally not obsolete, remained in service?

[Victor_B]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Cho? "Colt"? And many police will name where he, all so morally not obsolete, remained in service?

As a standard weapon, the hell knows it, but it continues to be successfully produced and some cops in the states quite buy and use it even at work.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Victor_B

As a standard weapon, the hell knows

That's basically all. No, not everything.

Quote: Victor_B

some cops in the states quite buy themselves and use them even at work.

Just like it was, 1911A1? Or customized beyond recognition, with a horse price tag?

[Victor_B]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Just like it was, 1911A1? Or customized beyond recognition, with a horse price tag?

Aha
Gold plated and with Swarovski crystals!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Victor_B

Gold plated and with Swarovski crystals!

The relief of the trigger and some details, titanium frames and other pribluda will be more expensive than rhinestones.

[Alex777]

Quote: Victor_B

As a standard weapon, the hell knows it, but it continues to be successfully produced and some cops in the states quite buy and use it even at work.

There are no such. Either you are mistaken, or have not seen the police for a long time.
Exclusively as a memory of the past events of 1911 remained.
We could have such a Mauser. But alas.
The police also stopped using revolvers.
Due to the small number of cartridges.

[Horus]

Hello! In the shooting range they used the Nagant more than once, for acquaintance, so to speak. I don’t know how it is now, I’m a civilian since I was 12.

[Alex777]

I also used the Nagant in the shooting range. Like.
But this is self-defense at the level of the 30s.
How did the criminals have multiple charges,
so the police had to switch to them.

[Region-25.rus]

Cho? laughing "Colt"? And many police will name where he, all so morally not obsolete, remained in service?

incidentally flashed in the chronicles of the use of weapons by the US police. But let's face it ... very rarely) But apparently there are aesthetes there

[Cat]

Colt M 1911?

Colt can hardly be called morally obsolete, since show-offs do not age

[Letun]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

"PM is obsolete"

Can not argue with that!

Oh, I will repeat here, too, I have already written above.
I don't understand at all this beautiful phrase "obsolete" in relation to weapons.
The understanding that it is bad to have sex before marriage is morally outdated ... But how can a pistol become morally obsolete? Technically, I understand. But morally?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Letun

But how can a pistol become morally obsolete? Technically, I understand. But morally?

Well, if a pistol cannot become obsolete immorally, then it remains morally obsolete! What to do is a fixed expression. Well, technically advanced weapons may become unusable due to the emergence of even more advanced weapons. And with all due respect, it is no longer possible to consider the Makarov as an advanced weapon.

[Alex777]

Quote: Letun

But how can a pistol become morally obsolete? Technically, I understand. But morally?

I will answer as answered above. But in a different way.
Imagine: you have Makarov, and your partner has a PLC.
And you envy him.
This is what it means - morally obsolete.

[Alexfly]

Well, I don't know ... How to compare, for example: you have a PLC and you shoot from it once a month at a target at 25m, and your opponent with Makarych runs an obstacle course for 6 days a week according to the rules of dynamic shooting ... have to envy ??

[Alex777]

Who has to envy here ??

The one with the better gun.
Somehow the captain (then still of the militia) from my guard,
demonstrating skills, he shot from 15 m the neck at
a beer bottle from a personal PM. From the first shot.
And if he had a PLC, he could do the same from 25 m.

[Alexfly]

It is unlikely ............... would

[Alex777]

Quote: AlexFly

It is unlikely ............... would

You shouldn't have doubted. He had enough practice.
And cartridges in your pocket - shoot at the bottle.
As for the 9x19 cartridge, it is very, very
perspective. When PLC, yes together with PPK-20.
And PPs based on 9x18 had no real meaning.

[Letun]

Quote: Alex777

And you envy him.
This is what it means - morally obsolete.

Well, this means that I am morally obsolete, and the pistol is technically obsolete.

[Alex777]

Quote: Letun

Well, this means that I am morally obsolete, and the pistol is technically obsolete.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

I do not see any significant differences, except for the number of cartridges. Oh yes, I forgot! Without a "barrel flashlight" - nothing. Money was poured into the development, manufacture, rearmament, but I don't see any particular breakthrough.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich

I do not see any significant differences, except for the number of cartridges. Oh yes, I forgot! Without a "barrel flashlight" - nothing. Money was poured into the development, manufacture, rearmament, but I don't see any particular breakthrough.

That is, the ammunition load does not solve? Here you also need to look at the question of manufacturability, the accuracy of the battle, the price. And so you can sit on a TT.

[Sandro1977]

If someone thought that the bk of an employee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs was not sufficient, he would already be given more than one spare store ... So far, it turns out that 8x2 is enough

[I am not a robot]

well, so they will be given out to special forces, and ordinary PPS will also walk with a PM

[Barberry25]

give out so much, because they gave out so much before.

[SSA]

It's not about the number of wearable BC. A pistol is a short-term collision weapon, as a rule it is sudden, and this is suppression by fire, and this is 50% of shots in "nowhere" and 50% somewhere somewhere nearby, but not directly in the forehead.
It is very good that you will make 12 shots into the "milk" from 6 charging nuclear submarines, injure 4, and you will probably kill 2.
It makes no sense to wear 3 or 4 magazines from the PM. As a rule, the fight ends when the bolt stops in its rearmost position.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

Agree. Just one question to the developers - "Does the new pistol, in terms of its performance characteristics, really deserve such investments?"

[Alex777]

At least - the range and accuracy of fire.
This is in addition to the number of cartridges in the store.

[Alexfly]

With a movable, swinging barrel - precision?

[Alex777]

Quote: AlexFly

With a movable, swinging barrel - precision?

Oh everyone ...
This scheme was invented in Kalashnikov, right?
What did you personally have to shoot from?

[Old tanker]

TT is quite a gun! The bandyuki loved him very much in the 90s. And he sews light bulletproof vests at a time. And Makar is superior in accuracy and accuracy of fire. But! In terms of reliability, it is significantly inferior. Especially if with a large shot.

[Torins]

The bandits loved him not because he was all awesome, but because many samples were not listed anywhere and it was not possible to track the owner along the trunk. War is such a thing, a lot of negligence remains on hand, and it was not so difficult to find a working barrel for a long time.

[hagen]

Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich

I do not see any significant differences, except for the number of cartridges

Have you been shooting for a long time? In fact, they differ quite well. And the collimator is a very useful thing.

Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich

Money poured into development

And if you don’t put money into development, in a short time you will lose all personnel capable of developing at least something. Brains do not lie in warehouses, they must constantly work and be evaluated. I think so...

[bistrov.]

Quote: Hagen

And the collimator is a very useful thing.

Are you seriously ? How do you imagine carrying a pistol with a collimator and a tactical flashlight and shooting from it in extreme situations, when weapons are usually used? I assure you, in this situation you will not have time for the collimator, and the flashlight will simply unmask you and you risk being the first to get a bullet ...

[hagen]

Quote: bistrov.

I assure you that in this situation you will have no time for the collimator.

You don't need to assure me, for more than ten years I wore the PM like a fountain pen ... And I had to shoot in an extracurricular setting. I know what I'm talking about.

[bistrov.]

Quote: Hagen

I know what I'm talking about.

Well, well ...., as they say, "and cards in hand" ....

[I am not a robot]

if you don't know: the flashlight can be turned off, there is an on-off button

[unhappy]

Do you want a breakthrough? Blaster or Plasmogun? Sorry, they didn't bring it to the store
The weapon model needs to be updated, even if the technology hasn't changed for a hundred years.

[Silver bullet]

"Makarych" will still remain in the memory of most officers as something close and inseparable, reminiscent of the army's youth.

[I am not a robot]

why do you need breakthroughs, this is just rearmament to more effective weapons and you really need a flashlight during inspections

[Mountain shooter]

The cartridge is more powerful. And the stock of them (cartridges) is greater. As for the accuracy - I don't know, you have to listen to those who fired from it.

[Sandro1977]

Are you already rearming? How many pieces were received in. Ministry of Internal Affairs for today? Which units have already been rearmed?

[Barberry25]

until they arrive, while the PYa are received ... In total, about 50 units were delivered to the army and special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs / FSVNG in several years

[I am Peter]

my father told me that for 45 years of service in his memory and places of service, the PM did not have a single misfire

[Cat]

Your esteemed father is in luck. I had a few misfires in half the service life (non-ignition of the primer), but mostly the liner was skewed. It all depends not on the weapon, but on the quality of the ammunition.

[Dikson]

Well, what to do with the hellish amount of cartridges and PM barrels? It's just that money for such a rearmament is thrown in a lot ... this is the whole tsimes ... otherwise - the barrel is shorter, there are more cartridges ... the flashlight is attached ... screw a laser sight from a Chinese pointer or the same flashlight to the PM from below .. - so that the district I could easily climb the basements in the area, and that's all ..

[carstorm 11]

We have millions of weapons in our warehouses even before the PM were created. And they will continue to accumulate. During the war, even Berdanks will be used.

[Cat]

This is not entirely true. There are samples for which the release of ammunition has not been stopped, since the shelf life of cartridges, although long, is not infinite.

[carstorm 11]

Are they still produced for revolvers?)))

[I am not a robot]

rearmament does not take place in a day, as resources are consumed, PM will be changed to this pistol

[bistrov.]

Quote: Janerobot

as the PM resources are consumed

PM, but the norm, 8-10 thousand shots before the deterioration of the passport characteristics, i.e. it is unlikely that a particular pistol taken in the troops or institutions will develop it over many years, it can only in some dash where it is intensively used every day, and then it serves there for 1,5-2 years, and if the characteristics deteriorate, you can always produce repair him, replace the barrel there, or the return spring, or some other whisper ...

[I am not a robot]

do they change the trunk there
I wrote that "rearmament does not happen in a day"

[Barberry25]

1) re-equipment will take at least 7/10 years.
2) neither a flashlight nor a laser can be attached to standard PMs
3) mob. the reserve has not been canceled
4) we will not rule out that it is quite possible that CSR will still be resolved as a result

[Torins]

Do not think that rearmament will happen at once, and in which case the militia should be armed with something.

[Two]

Police fire training at zero level! Only samrstroki can be engaged in. Even if the Lebedev model, even the Yarygin model, there will be little sense!

[I am not a robot]

there is a video where a policeman in a shootout hits the head of a running terrorist, you don't need to speak for everyone, don't lie

[Alexfly]

Probably a former plate-maker, if he strikes a head in a head, a reference is possible? For debriefing ..

[I am not a robot]

The attack on the police in Moscow hit the video on YouTube
I do not know how to insert links

[Two]

Accidentally hit! 100%! We have ZNSH (now deceased) Tsyba Aleksandr Pavlovich also knocked down a baboon with an AK on 80 m from the "Makar", in motion! His Majesty CASE!

[I am not a robot]

got into a shootout, and by chance or not by accident, as you determined, so about the champions of shooters, you can say so: accidentally hit

[Two]

The championships are held far from the Makarovs. The simplest is Anschütz and its derivatives. The Makarov (Walter PP) car is not bad, but in modern times it really loses in the practical possibilities of both application and use.

[Konnick]

They will not rearm, this is what money is needed for a 100% transition to a PLC, a media source seems to be the PR service of the Kalashnikov concern.
You cannot equip ordinary patrolmen, traffic cops, etc. with such a powerful pistol. Perhaps they will arm the employees of the capture groups, specialists. And then, in the place of some opera, I would not abandon the proven, reliable weapon, which is the PM.

[Barberry25]

"you can't equip with such a powerful pistol" ... well, yes, but the fact that half of the AKSU and Kedra PPS are in service, and then yes .. they cannot be given new pistols)

[Konnick]

that half of the PPS AKSU and Kedra are in service, but then yes ... they can't give new pistols

Or maybe it's a psychic weapon. For example, I have never heard of the use of PP or AKSU in patrolling the streets. Although you will look at the PPS members with their arsenal and you will immediately do it

[Barberry25]

1) we are lucky that in Russia the cases of the use of weapons by the police are exceptions, and not the rule as in the same USA, but such cases still happen, so it is better to have the opportunity than not to have, let the PPSnik be with a pistol with 14 + 14 rounds than with 8 + 8. If it saves even a couple of lives of employees or civilians, it will already be worth the money.

[RomanRS]

It is high time! Only empty ringing again. How many and how long will they buy? And all the stories, like the PM of the norms - from the series, our grandfathers in footcloths and greatcoats fought, why change something. That is why our police are lagging behind modern advances in equipment, weapons and transport as "rebels from Skynet". But most importantly, in the first place, the fear of police officers to use weapons would have been eliminated through legislation and law enforcement, and perhaps the number of crimes would have been reduced.

[Konnick]

our grandfathers in footcloths

You don't need footcloths, there is nothing better than footcloths for boots and felt boots. And the expression "rebels from Skynet" betrays you as the owner of the sofa.

[RomanRS]

Quote: Konnick

You don't need footcloths, there is nothing better than footcloths for boots and felt boots.

Better not? Maybe then from their couch, in the 21st century, at least they asked what today's professional military men walk about and why they have to buy shoes for their money. And if you do not know who and for what reason uses the allegory from the movie "rebels against Skynet" shows that you are not at all interested in either the modern army or the current wars. For a start, at least discover the existence of guys like RAZVEDOS and RSOTM.

[Konnick]

.

For a start, at least discover the existence of guys like RAZVEDOS and RSOTM.

This is the type of Stirlitz and Müller from jokes. And I am not fond of computer games.

[Konnick]

what does today's professional military wear

In lacquered low shoes, stylish according to Shoigu

[Mikhail3]

Makarov, unlike the concern, for some reason does not bear a bribe! Of course his pistol is "obsolete". What a bad designer, he dared to die, but he never gave a bribe! The Ministry of Internal Affairs does not work that way ...))

[Avior]

a media source explains the transition of the Ministry of Internal Affairs to the Lebedev pistol

Of course, nothing eternal happens when they switch to other weapons, but you need to understand that in the 21st century, weapons are supposed to be more specialized than during the times of massive armies in the middle of the 20th century, when PMs were armed with both the army and the police to reduce the cost, although it is great everyone understood that the requirements for army and police weapons were different.
But the policeman can be different. There are special forces that are highly likely to use it, and it is quite possible that against a well-armed and well-equipped enemy, and there are, conditionally, "precinct" ones, who are in the majority in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, who have to use weapons extremely rarely, and it is better not to use them at all. due to the fact that the level of preparation for its use is not very good, you never know what you put on your head, and how your superiors will look at it.
In my Soviet childhood, according to legend, our district police officer wore a shot and a cucumber in a holster, not a pistol , and now I understand him - suddenly you lose the gun, you won't get around problems.
Now the situation has changed, but still, for most police officers, the use of weapons is an extraordinary event.
In my opinion, the PM now, as a police weapon, fits, perhaps, no worse than Lebedev's pistol, so there is no point in changing the awl for soap.
Another thing is that there should be a specialized police pistol - as compact as possible, lightweight, simple and reliable, with a fuse, for 7-8 rounds, caliber 9 * 19, so as not to interfere with the main functions, but at the same time was present as insurance just in case. Something like Glock-26, for example, weighing 500-550 grams, or Beretta Nano

or Kel-Tec PF-9

Once such was Walter PPK, and PM, as a police pistol, was not bad, now, of course, times have changed, but the concept of a police pistol has completely remained.

[Barberry25]

oh yes, let's invent a nano-pistol ... Maybe it's enough garbage to suffer already? there is a normal PLC pistol, they are ready to buy it, and they will buy it .. he tells me that at one time, in the same way, the nose in the kitchen was turned up from the PM, they say "I went through the whole war with TT, I don't need a new one!"

[Avior]

have a normal PLC pistol

which for most police officers is no worse and no better than PM

they are ready to buy it, they will buy it

But not out of considerations that he is better than the PM for the police.
The decision will be made by people who are not interested in the characteristics of the pistol.

Even he says to me that at one time, in the same way, the nose in the kitchen was turned up from the PM, they say, "I went through the whole war with TT, I don't need a new one!"

I read more than once that the revolver was in many cases valued higher than the TT because of its reliability. The captured Germans were also, by the way, quite positively assessed.

oh yeah, let's invent a nano pistol.

no, it's better to change the awl for soap.
The price of the light, small, simple Kel-Tec PF-9 starts at $ 230, the usual one is $ 300,
https://www.guncritic.com/product/kel-tec-pf-9/
and if you allow, the district police officer will buy himself, as a service one, a pistol without cartridges weighs 370 grams, the thickness is only 22 millimeters, carry it to your health, will not interfere with small hooligans or drunken family rowdy.

Why does he need a PLC?

[Barberry25]

so go on duty with an awl, and if there is an opportunity to provide employees with a modern pistol, then this should be done, otherwise the classics of the genre, first squeals about "how long can you serve with old stuff", and as soon as they announced that they would buy a modern pistol, let's go squeals about "ko-ko-ko, PM vesch, I drank it, why miniat" ... always dissatisfied

[Avior]

Shifts are different, and modern pistols are also different in purpose. For most police officers, the advantages of PLCs will not be noticeable in any way, since they rarely have to shoot in conditions when these advantages appear, and even more often, never, but the disadvantages for them in the form of weight and size will be the same as those of PM ...

[Barberry25]

I never knew that sissies go to the police who cry and ask to pick up the gun since it weighs as much as extra 90 grams)

[Avior]

The Kel-Tec PF-9 weighs 370 grams, half the weight of a PM or PLC.
In addition, it is noticeably more compact and more convenient.
This does not mean that I urge to adopt it.
This is just an example of a handgun that is handy for most police officers.

[Barberry25]

and what about us, police officers are pack animals hung with ammunition? not to mention the fact that this is a concealed carry weapon with all the ensuing disadvantages in the form of a large recoil of an inconvenient handle, if you are a little larger than ordinary and small ammunition ... Simply put- for the sake of theoretical convenience, all other buns are lost from "see it twice as easy"

[Avior]

for the sake of theoretical convenience from "see it twice as easy"

for real convenience
but shooting just is rather theoretical for most police officers.

[Barberry25]

The utter game - the police are not an institute of noble maidens, for whom it is important to dress comfortably and beautifully, this is a law enforcement agency.It's more fun if the Ministry of Internal Affairs hit its head and began to buy an analogue of Kel-Tec PF-9 or 26th Glock, then you would be the first to yell about "I drank, why change the 8-shot Makarov for a 10-shot ladies' pistol! I drank!"

[Avior]

Ugly game - the police are not an institution for noble maidens

but also not an organization in which all employees, without exception, fire from morning till night in all directions.

started purchasing an analogue of Kel-Tec PF-9

if retail and 230 can be by reference, then wholesale is 200 dollars.
For that kind of money, many precinct officers would buy themselves so that they would not carry your PLC, from which, most likely, they would not have to shoot, especially in conditions when its advantages were manifested.
I don't see what else to argue about. Everything has already been said.
You just need to buy a batch as an experiment in some small region and give the opportunity to choose - and see after a while who will choose what. Then it will be clear which one is needed.

[Barberry25]

if the district police officer is so cloven-hoofed that they are ready to lay out 15x so that his priest does not wear the extra 200 grams on a belt, then his place is not in the police, but in a gay club ...

[Avior]

The district police officer has his own tasks and pistol shooting is not in the first place in them.
Yes, and with math you are bad

[Barberry25]

Sergei, better keep quiet ... you have already shown your knowledge at the level of the plinth ...

[Avior]

Compose some new nonsense, since you've been caught with the old one.

[Barberry25]

alas, but to compose more than "poor district police officers will not be able to carry a pistol that is 100 grams heavier than Makarov and they generally need concealed handguns for them" it's hard for me) here in nonsense you can't beat you) .. as in "police don't need a pistol, they can't shoot "

[Avior]

You're a liar, too.
I didn't write that

"poor district police officers will not be able to carry a pistol that is 100 grams heavier than Makarov

I wrote that there is no difference between PLC and PM in this matter, and I wrote this repeatedly

have a normal PLC pistol

which for most police officers is no worse and no better than PM

The advantages of PLCs will not be noticeable in any way, since they rarely have to shoot in conditions when these advantages appear, and even more often, never, but the disadvantages for them in the form of weight and size will be the same as those of PMs.

But since you ran out of arguments, you began to frankly compose them.
Will not interfere

[Barberry25]

that's why I say that you are an "expert" who bases the angle on "mass" and "well, they shouldn't shoot," and the Ministry of Internal Affairs must first of all consider weapons as weapons, and not as a means of "shooting the wife's lover, my mistress and myself. " Therefore, they do not exchange for "well, after all, the district does not need a weapon at all, he has a cucumber and a glass in a holster" ... A weapon is a weapon, certain requirements are imposed on it. PM-they no longer correspond to them like a police pistol, but a PLC-quite ... But in order to calm your expert soul, I will reveal the secret, the district police officers will not be the first to receive PLCs, the first to receive special-purpose parts of the FSVNG, then the opera and PPS, and then only district police officers .. so that you still have time to cry and shout about "now, everyone has already been given the Lebedevs, and the district police officers are still running around with PMs."

[KSVK]

Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich

I do not see any significant differences, except for the number of cartridges.

Well, in fact, there has been a PMM for a long time. There are 12 rounds in a clip and a chamber chambered for a high-impulse cartridge.
PS My IMHO in the PLC several controversial decisions. And the self-cocking firing and the barrel is short and the cartridge for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, it seems to me, is not necessary, especially with the advent of the high-impulse 9 * 18. Yes, in the troops and specialists, but not in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. The tasks are different. The game is not worth the candle, taking into account how much money will have to be spent on rearmament.

[Barberry25]

The problem of the PMM is that it appeared at a bad time and in those very cartridges - they are incompatible with the usual PM - there were cases when they came across ordinary operatives with PM, which led to the destruction of weapons and injuries to employees ... and they were seized by the poet. .About the "sheepskin dressing" - is it better to tear up the ass after the thunder and cross after the thunder?

[Avior]

in the same cartridges, they are incompatible with conventional PM

And the PLC, for which you drown, are they compatible with the PM? You don't consider this a disadvantage when it comes to PLCs ...

[Barberry25]

for those who are not at all in the subject, but the topvar's expert, incompatibility is that it is NOT possible to load reinforced cartridges from the PMM into the PM, since the increased weight of gunpowder leads to the resolution of the pistol up to injury to personnel ... in general, if you do not know what to write, do not write anything

[Avior]

I know. cartridges from the PLC in the PM also cannot be charged. They will not fit in length.
Therefore, neither from the PMM, nor from the PLC, it is not necessary to shove cartridges into the PM, and it is not even necessary to hand them over to those who have a service PM.

[Barberry25]

yes well? now you know, but an hour ago they did not know, since they wrote a stupid comment about compatibility .. I described what happened, and you are stupid .. so don’t write, you already showed that this topic is not in the tooth by foot

[Avior]

I always knew. You sucked the argument against the PMM from the finger, it is far-fetched, which I showed.

[Barberry25]

you do not think, because "I showed", you showed that you do not know anything, but you are trying to come up with at least some kind of nonsense .. I see no point in talking with another star expert who knows nothing

[Avior]

You, I see, yourself have already understood that you have pulled the "argument" by the ears, but you do not want to admit the obvious

[Alexfly]

The CZ-82 was just made for the PM cartridge, but the Czech cartridges were more powerful than for the PM. In addition, the bullet in the PM sinks deeper, i.e. less gunpowder ... ChZ did not crumble ...

[I am not a robot]

pm also shoots self-cocking, the barrel is even shorter

[Alexfly]

93 mm in PM versus 92 in PLC ...

[KSVK]

Quote: Janerobot

pm also shoots self-cocking

But he shoots NOT ONLY self-cocking, unlike the submarine.

Quote: Janerobot

, the barrel is even shorter

The barrel is shorter for the PLC. True for 1,5mm. But with a cartridge 9 * 19 IMHO, the barrel is short.

[MauZerR]

Quote: Volkof

Have you ever fired a PM? Have you seen enough movies? PM is not a pistol, you can only shoot with it, hammer in nails and spoil clothes ... You will not hit the target from 20 meters ... - minimal result ...

"If you think that the PM is a bad pistol, then you have never fired from the PM, if you think that the PM is a good pistol, then you have never fired from the PM" (RuBearUSA is our weapons blogger, lives in the USA, he has including two PM-a, he regularly shoots one of them). PM is not a bad pistol, this is a police weapon created in its period and for a specific task. Now the requirements for weapons are different: a larger magazine capacity, a powerful cartridge, ergonomics, ease of reloading, etc. Regarding "hanging a flashlight" is a necessary feature, go into a dark room - you don't see a nichrome, so at least there is an opportunity to illuminate the area in front of you and understand what where.

[Avior]

a compact unit with a laser sight and a flashlight is just a perfectly reasonable thing - one hand is free in the dark - no need to hold a flashlight - and it is easier to aim for a not very trained shooter, for example, if the hostage is released.
a separate unit is convenient - if necessary, fasten it on and use it.

[MauZerR]

Quote: Victor_B

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Can not argue with that!

What about the Colt M 1911?
If cho - so 1911 is the year of issue!

And you know that Colt is not the developer of this pistol, just one of its manufacturers, along with Springfield, SigZauer, Remington, etc. Wherever it was produced ... It would be more correct to say M1911 or the M1911 platform. Posted by John Moses Browning. In the USA, it is officially used only by MARSOC ("marine raiders", special forces of the ILC), they make themselves on the basis of the weapons arsenal in Quantico from gross pistols with the necessary ILC modifications (frame with picatinny, new trigger, double-sided fuse, other grip cheeks, Tridzhikon-ovsky sighting, shops are taken from expensive OEMs).

[Terran ghost]

Did you know that Colt is not the developer of this pistol, just one of its manufacturers

M1911 was developed by John Moses Browning. The same one. The Colt company simply bought out the patent and was the main manufacturer for the duration of this patent. Then, of course, all and sundry made their own versions, but the Colt remained the supplier of the M1911s for the US Armed Forces. Therefore, in relation to the army specimens, the assumption that the pistols were produced by the "Colt" factories is usually correct.

[Flank]

Quote: Dead Day

yes norms "Makar" in the city. "stops" at a time, what is needed then?

At what distance is Makarov good? The fact is that the criminals have more advanced weapons and therefore a new pistol is needed.

[Alexfly]

10 meters PM is excellent, Bizon would be suitable against others ... 9x18 PM is simply pushed out of the law enforcement agencies, as 7,62x25 previously left Current ..... now the fashion for 9x19 Luger ... Business and nothing personal

[beeper]

Somehow very slyly comparative performance characteristics of pistols PM and PLC are given ??!
After all, the readers' attention was deliberately focused on small differences in the height of the pistols and the length of the barrel, but they SILENTED ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN THE TOTAL LENGTH OF THE PISTOLS -161 mm for the Makarov, and 185 mm for the Swan Compact!
And we have not yet heard the "expert assessments" of such a "famous in narrow circles", near-weapon writer as Semyon Fedoseev, who even during the anti-Soviet "glasnost and perestroika" was everywhere (including in "Tekhnika-Molodyozhi" and " Komsomolskaya Pravda ") embossed his notes, brochures and little books about the" obsolete "Makarov" ", with the most important argument - they say," unsatisfactory accuracy of shooting from it "precisely because of the" very short PM barrel, only 93mm "!
And here, here you are, a new "PM replacement" -PLC with an even shorter barrel!
I wish I was wondering how this "gunsmith expert" would now "argue" such a step of replacing "obsolete" with an even more "obsolete" (according to Fedoseev, due to the shorter barrel length) "?!
***
I have already written more than once and always say that "Makarov" is my favorite pistol (after the 7,62 mm of the Khaidurov-TOZ-36 sports revolver and the 5,6 mm of the Margolin-MTs pistol, in addition, the first releases, with 140 mm barrel, "Parabellum" tilt of the handle and a 10-round magazine, also "Parabellum" type, with a cylindrical feed spring)!
From "Makarov" for half a hundred meters I got where hosh, to choose from!
It is necessary to adapt to it, to the handle and trigger, to the front sight and rear sight, to quickly return to the line of fire, when, when firing, the barrel "pulls" upward to the right ... and the shooting will go!
As the only firearm for self-defense I would choose only "Makarov", pre-perestroika Soviet issue, with Soviet cartridges!
***
Many times I witnessed how in the army, who had never fired a pistol in their lives, young guys, for the first time taking Makarov in their hand (then they fired from pistols only with one hand), fired off, exercise in three shots, on "good "and" excellent "in the chest target" number 4 "at a distance of 25 meters!
The combat army officers of the Soviet Army, for the most part, fired very decently from the PM!
The KGB officers (all this was still in the Soviet Union), also knew how to shoot from the "Makarov" (although they liked to "show off" with individual imported pistols and absolutely rare, pre-revolutionary ones, but when asked "where did they get such a miracle?" smiled mysteriously "...)!
But the Soviet militiamen by no means all shone with fire training from their Makarovs! Some openly "smeared" at the targets, many hit only the lower edge (apparently, nevertheless, the small angle of inclination of the PM handle affected, as A.A. Blagonravov wrote about in the textbook on weapon design, in the section on pistols ...) , and there were those who strove to evade ("entrusting" their comrades to hand over the obligatory standard) and they completely got away with it.
***
In the video shown, because of an overly powerful (for police purposes) cartridge and too short (for such a powerful cartridge) barrel, the "Swan" is held all the way with both hands, apparently so as not to "fly away" ?!
Shooting from the PLC with one hand (how does the pistol behave at the same time), I never saw ?!
But a pistol is, first of all, a "pocket artillery", a functional weapon of one hand, not two hands convulsively clasped on the pistol and enslaving the shooter's body, depriving him of the ability to react flexibly, by his own movement and maneuvering with fire, in the course of a real battle !
The best weapons are always balanced in all their qualities, without pedaling any one of them, as is now the custom with the "pistol penetration bogey"!
***
The disassembly and assembly of the PLC was demonstrated by a young gunsmith, one of the designers of this pistol (there is an interesting interview with Vladimir Onokoy with her on the Kalashnikov channel, I liked it, and the girl herself is pretty, she is pleasantly grassed in pronunciation, besides, and enough smart, with her own view of the arms profession, defended her diploma with her own machine gun design ).
***
Due to the "sports", increased, angle of inclination of the handle, it will be easier to hit from the PLC offhand, even for people with little training in pistol shooting.
But we must also remember that such a small tilt of the handle in combat pistols PM and APS is largely dictated by the requirement to ensure the reliability of the supply of cartridges from the store!
***
I consider Yarygin's and Lebedev's pistols "sports" (yes, by the way, both were designed by "sports" designers, obviously without a clear understanding of the concept of using pistols in combat, and not in "practical shooting" and in "sports", and the possibility of their mass production in wartime in acceptable "conditions" of quality and operational reliability ... in this respect, they are very far from the "obsolete" Makarov pistol, "like a star"! ), unnecessarily overcomplicated, both in the "pretentious" form of parts and manufacturing technology, and in design!
How will it be with the workmanship, service and operation, reliability and durability of the PLC (and PL) - time will tell!
And the PL is unlikely to expect commercial success in the "international markets", as, most likely, was the KK "targeting" ?!
IMHO

[SSA]

Quote: pishchak

Shooting from the PLC with one hand (how does the pistol behave at the same time), I never saw ?!
But a pistol is, first of all, a "pocket artillery", a functional weapon of one hand, not two hands convulsively clasped on the pistol and enslaving the shooter's body, depriving him of the ability to react flexibly, by his own movement and maneuvering with fire, in the course of a real battle !

... hmm .. well, nonsense, excuse me ... You are probably an athlete.

The pistol is a melee weapon. The success of firing a pistol (in practical conditions) is determined by: A - the speed of opening fire at the target, B - by the rate of fire, C - by the accuracy. What kind of artillery ???

1. Holding the pistol with two hands allows you to provide full control, press it to yourself, go around corners, increase or shorten the aiming line, while maintaining the ability to immediately open fire, provides a high rate of fire (which is simply impossible when shooting with one hand).

2. Holding with one hand, does not allow maneuvering, changing the vector, since the pistol starts jumping like a pendulum when moving, turning, "sweeps" and "nods" occur. The transfer of fire (direction of the weapon) from one target to another (to flash, sound, danger) is done by turning the body, and not with your hand, and if you freely hold the weapon with one hand, it will "swing" like a rapier until you catch the target. During this time, the target can crouch, (hide behind your pistol) stuff you with lead.

[beeper]

I see, aka SSA, that we have different ideas about the pistol and the concept of its use.
Including clearly visible (from the commentary) and your "theoretical" stereotypes of thinking, obviously "oriented" to the weighty "pistol complex" hung with tsatzki and stuffed with unnecessarily powerful cartridges, which just offhand "throw up" with both hands ( the same way, two-handed and "maneuver with fire"), as well as hold on to "armor-piercing" cartridges when fired!
Yes, and it is impossible, it will not work, from such a hybrid "pistol complex + two-handed shooter" to shoot "from the hip" and "to the sound", you will not have time to "turn the body" and "feel" the situation with your body.
I, probably, have already "lagged behind the times", tk. I was also taught by our veteran front-line soldiers and is "conservatively" focused on the familiar, light and maneuverable, Makarov pistol, without any newfangled "bullshit" and a massive "ammunition depot" with it (with which, of course, due to its size and masses, the pistol will "swing like a" rapier "in the hand and move with energy" along its trajectory ", and not where it should be)!
Honestly, it was funny for me to read that "nonsense" that you, SSA, based on your own "theoretical templates", write to me, like "until you catch the target" ... after all, I clearly wrote everything in the comments, in the answer to which you, with a poorly hidden sort of "neophyte snobbery", undertook to "teach" me your "ideas" ...
Well, yes, for about 30 years I fundamentally DO NOT take a firearm in my hands (and during this time I only took "pneumatics" a couple of times, at the request of a child, to win them a toy in the shooting range).
And the vision is no longer the same, although the speed of reaction still remains, this is an innate property of our nervous system (you are a "sprinter" or a "stayer", a different number of "fast" and "slow" super-sharp eyesight, more than once saved my life, ... although, I'm lying, it was not without Guardian Angels!).
The accumulated muscle skills, experience and knowledge remain with us for the rest of our lives ... that's why I remain an adherent of the concept of a "pistol of one hand", PM is quite consistent with this!
***
No, well, you, young people who are pretty adept at computer "shooters" and "practical shooting", know better ?!
At least the future, and already the present, is yours, so good luck with the two-handed "rapiers" and "Hollywood" tricks of the "body rotation", with other "trick"!
***
* "Pocket artillery" used to be jokingly, in conversation, and in books, called revolvers and pistols .... but, I noticed that the current "clip thinking" does not imply the work of the imagination (as well as the development of abstract perception, there is only " literal "), without reading books it usually remains in its infancy, alas!

[bunta]

Quote: SSA

One-handed hold, does not allow maneuvering

Especially for people like you:
Ballad of the two-handed grip https://vk.com/wall-205061310_26

[SSA]

I have read the article you proposed. Summary: 80 percent of "water" and idle reasoning, 20 percent of delusions and incomprehensible sarcasm, a person who has little understanding of what he is writing about. I don’t know who this person is, floridly and relishly talking about "correct" shooting and why the outpouring of his thoughts alone has such a convincing effect on you.
Starting with the claim that two-handed shooting is the brainchild of IPSC. Apparently the person does not know what the "Weaver stance" is, which appeared long before the IPSC appeared.

So:
1. I have never practiced shooting. It seems to me that it gives good skills, but I cannot confidently say that IT IS GOOD, since I have not tried it.

2. When shooting with two hands, I do exercise # 4 in 6-7 seconds. And I know for sure that it is extremely difficult to fulfill this standard when shooting with one hand.

3. When they begin to tell me about the "secret knowledge" and "secret techniques" of pistol gurus, masters from the armed forces of the USSR, the KGB, WWII veterans, Smersh scouts, etc., it makes me laugh. In the USSR, high-speed pistol shooting was NEVER practiced. Not in the army, not in the KGB, not in the GRU. Even the stupidest exercise # 1 just screams about it! Under the sports rack, training with an iron on an outstretched arm was developed.

4. In the USSR, almost until 1990, they never analyzed short-range shootings with a pistol, because as a rule these were rare cases of the use of weapons by the police.

5. In the United States, one of the most armed countries in the world, where the police regularly encountered armed criminals, much more attention was paid to the preparation of pistol shooting.

6. Yes ... maybe, if you shoot a pistol all your life, in the afternoon - morning - evening, you can learn to shoot like Cleric Preston from the movie "Equilibrium", or like the late "fastest revolver" in the world of Bob Munden, but for now. ..

"The statistics of the use of weapons by the US FBI in fights with criminals is very indicative. The fight lasts an average of 2,8 seconds. Its participants spend an average of 2,8 rounds before hitting one of the sides. The average distance between opponents is 2 m, and 75 percent of fights take place at a distance of less than 7 m. Most of the fights take place in low light, and their result is significantly influenced by the reaction of the shooter and the location of the weapon in relation to his hand ... USA".
Sincerely.

[bunta]

I cannot but answer your opus. But only one point at a time

Quote: SSA

In the USSR, almost until 1990, they never analyzed short-range shootings with a pistol, because, as a rule, these were rare cases of the use of weapons by the police.

The first analysis, which I know, was carried out at the beginning of the century back in tsarist Russia when deciding the question of rearmament from revolvers to self-loading pistols. The analysis was disappointing for the pistols.

[bunta]

Quote: SSA

I don’t know who this person is, floridly and relishly talking about "correct" shooting and why the outpouring of his thoughts alone has such a convincing effect on you.
Starting with the claim that two-handed shooting is the brainchild of IPSC.

I am this person. Everyone thinks only about what only it seems to him. understandable. Few have the ability to analyze. Where in the article is it written that shooting

from two hands it is "the brainchild of IPSC"

?

[SSA]

1. The nuclear submarine allows the use of a wide range of ammunition, and the so-called high power (penetration) and high stopping action.
It is very good! Hitting one or two bullets from the PM, not at the "kill site", criminals often withstand and continue the attack. But the impact of an expansive bullet can stop completely, without forcing to kill.

2. The sights of the PM are completely unsuitable for high-speed shooting. True, no one uses them, everyone is shooting with "muscle memory", but still ... the sights of the nuclear submarine are much more convenient.

3. Makarov pistol, NEVER was neither a policeman nor a military weapon! It was created as a personal weapon of an officer of the armed forces, so that the officer could not be taken prisoner with his bare hands, or by threatening to take him with a knife somewhere in the back street, etc. Makarov coped with this task brilliantly, having manufactured a simple, compact, technologically simple to manufacture, reliable and convenient weapon for an officer of the armed forces.

No one ever imagined that the PM would be used to capture bandits, in cars armed with firearms, etc., in the dark, in conditions with possible civilians nearby.

4. I have been shooting a lot and I am shooting from the PM. Nice gun. But he loses to the nuclear submarine in everything, and in the convenience of practical (consider high-speed) shooting, including the number of cartridges, and the range of ammunition.

Once upon a time, policemen walked with checkers ...

[bunta]

Quote: SSA

Once upon a time, policemen walked with checkers ...

... and Smith-Wesson revolvers.

[MauZerR]

Quote: Flanke

Quote: Dead Day

yes norms "Makar" in the city. "stops" at a time, what is needed then?

At what distance is Makarov good? The fact is that the criminals have more advanced weapons and therefore a new pistol is needed.

At the distance of direct fire contact in the city - gateway / yard / entrance. In the hands of a trained shooter, the PM will hit 50 m, and from the shaking handles that are heavier than a computer mouse they did not lift, the Glock will not hit at close range. Although the Glock, like most strikers on trigger, loses to the trigger trigger of the PM when firing from the cocked trigger. The handle of the PM is of course horrible, I, of course, only twisted the airsoft gun in my hands and a hardpneuma under 4,5mm. The most comfortable grip on my hand is the Glock. Beretta is thick, SIG P226 is thick. I'm only talking about airsoft replicas. And now everyone is shooting with two hands, from airsoft players to IPSC-shooters. It is corny more convenient and more stable.

[Note]

In my opinion, the perfect pistol for the police. It is quite easy to use and unpretentious in maintenance. Weight and dimensions are good. At a distance of up to 30 meters, it gives a fairly tight circle. The balance and comfort of holding (ergonomics) are quite adequate, on par with the mid-range CZ models. Sights are somewhat enlarged to facilitate aiming, but do not interfere with the extraction of weapons, although the use of molded holsters with rigid inserts is desirable. The skill requirements of the shooter are lower than those of the PM. I think the number of cartridges in the store is sufficient to carry out police tasks. The PMM was increased to 12, but at the same time there was always a gap in the speed of replacing the magazine, thanks to the latch, the spring shank. Bilateral controls are probably unnecessary, but this is more of a tribute to fashion, since when a medium trained police officer is used, it does not play much when reloading a weapon, regardless of which hand is leading, since with prolonged fire contact requiring reloading of the weapon, as practice shows both hands are used (taking into account the stressful situation of real fire contact, of course, and not range shooting). The ability to install additional equipment also does not impair the general characteristics of this product, and, if necessary, can be quite applicable as an addition in multifunctional qualities (flashlight), and in performing police tasks in difficult conditions requiring quick guidance (aiming) at suddenly appearing targets (target ). In general, a very successful averaged model of weapons with long-proven and well-tested schemes for the operation of mechanics (automation) and standard sizes. A kind of workhorse in the world of pistols.
Yes, PM, a masterpiece of beauty and simplicity (conciseness) and completeness in the world of weapons, and of course it will remain so forever taking its place among the brilliant solutions of Russian weapons thought (and perhaps the world one).

[Note]

The only thing I don't really like about this sample is the hammerless usm device. But this is subjective, not for everybody.))

[SSA]

Quote: pishchak

The combat army officers of the Soviet Army, for the most part, fired very decently from the PM!
The KGB officers (all this was still in the Soviet Union), also knew how to shoot from the "Makarov" (although they liked to "show off" with individual imported pistols and absolutely rare, pre-revolutionary ones, but when asked "where did they get such a miracle?" smiled mysteriously "...)!
But the Soviet policemen by no means all shone with fire training from their "Makarovs"

...
Where do you get these bikes ?.

Army officers of the SA, all their lives passed exercise No. 1 shooting from a sports stance with one hand, without time limit. This is completely divorced from life, useless and harmful exercise, suitable only for passing the standards by the SA officers, who never got these pistols except at the shooting range.

The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR and (and then the Russian Federation), as the only department bearing combat losses in peacetime, whose employees regularly used pistols (and not the KGB and not the Ministry of Defense), was the first to abandon this exercise and introduce exercise No. 4 into the obligation. Former military officers , coming to the police - the police, with great difficulty fulfilled the standard, hitting 1-2 times, losing to PPS-nicknames who got their hands on this exercise.

[Clochard]

The Ministry of Internal Affairs has no task to "bring down" citizens, but only to detain and PM is enough for this

[bunta]

Quote: Region-25.rus

Even in PMV, it was used on the brainchild of Hugo Schmeisser MR-18 in the assault units of the Reichswehr (or whatever it was called in PMV)

A typical delusion reinforced by M. Popenker. Read "The Genesis of Submachine Guns":
https://vk.com/wall-205061310_28

[bunta]

Commentary on the news:
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/ingw/pochemu-u-pistoleta-lebedeva-malo-shansov-v-mvd-i-rg-61705bbf2c6948053b4bd47e

[AlexSam]

why no one ever speaks or writes about the chestnut? Or have they already been written off?

[SSA]

Because "Kashtan" is much more expensive to manufacture, especially in small batches. They were made about 100 of them, were in service with the units of the FSB and FSO, but there was no large order for them. The Ministry of Internal Affairs chose cheaper, mass-produced CEDARs, and the FSB did not need a lot of them (Kashtanov).

[Cosmoarms]

Why 9 mm again? There are more promising calibers and developments!