China stole another Russian development

35


China replaces 100-mm guns of the Type 210 with locally developed 130-mm PJ-38 on its destroyers (and on ships of smaller classes). The 210 type is actually a licensed version of the French 100-mm naval cannon Compact (19-ton and automatic system with a range of 17 kilometers and rate of fire in 78 per minute). China has upgraded it weapon for firing laser-guided munitions as well as unguided munitions with a rate of fire of up to 90 shots per minute. However, the modernized gun Type 210, H / PJ87 has problems with reliability.

The new 130-mm gun borrowed a lot from Russian naval guns, such as the AK-130 automatic naval 130-mm gun. New Chinese 130-mm gun first appeared in the new destroyer Type 52D. The weight of the turret of the new gun is at least 50 tons, the firing range is about 29.5 kilometers, and the maximum firing rate is 40 shots per minute. Laser-guided projectiles can be used, but mostly the gun shoots conventional unguided projectiles.
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  1. +13
    11 September 2012
    And whom such news should surprise what Now, if China refuses to copy and begins to invent something himself, then this will be news.
    1. Vanek
      +9
      11 September 2012
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      it will be news


      The news will be if the Chinese begin to copy.

      Hello to everyone.
      1. +5
        11 September 2012
        Quote: Vanek

        The news will be if the Chinese begin to copy.

        Hi Ivan, and then the Chinese will copy what they copied is a habit hi
        1. Vanek
          +1
          11 September 2012
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          copy what they copied from them


          Some kind of vicious circle smile
      2. +15
        11 September 2012
        Welcome all. We have a joke when Chinese guests come to present products. It’s necessary to hang a bucket and a rag on the product, if then you see the same thing in Navogo Chinese (and the rag will be the same color), it means that we were ripped off. laughing And so did not surprise.
      3. svs
        svs
        +2
        11 September 2012
        The news will be if the Chinese begin to copy.
        - Take Chinese phones soldered on your knee - which, in fact, doesn’t have TVs and projectors in them, and so on ... for several years now super duper bells and whistles have been announced first in Chinese undersets, and then well-known brands are taken up for this (this does not exclude the possibility of saving the company a novelty for later, it was stolen from her, but the poto had to be introduced by the birr ...)
        1. Trance
          0
          11 September 2012
          Good morning everyone wink
          What news in the morning:

          Al-Qaeda has offered the West a peace treaty
          11.09.2012 - 07: 03

          The brother of al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri Muhammad proposed to Western countries to conclude a truce with the Islamists. He is ready to mediate this agreement.

          According to Muhammad al-Zawahiri, he prepared a proposal for a ceasefire for a period of 10 years, the main points of which are the refusal of Washington and the West to intervene in the affairs of Islamic states and the principles of Islamic education.

          He also demands that all prisoners accused of having ties with Islamists be released from US prisons, Rossiyskaya Gazeta reports.

          In exchange, Islamic groups are ready to stop conducting attacks against the interests of the United States and Western countries.
          1. +3
            11 September 2012
            Good morning everyone, colleagues.
            Quote: Karavan
            Russia is moving along the same path - the purchase of foreign technology and its study to find new and interesting ideas!

            Is it worth wondering about this practice? This is a worldwide phenomenon, when - if they don’t sell or feel sorry for the money, then - tyrat and "with a blue eye" to assert that this is a domestic development. If you noticed from the text of the article, then the French have no less reason to be offended by the Chinese, in this case, than we do.
            So, if wheeled tanks run on our roads, then get ready for such articles to appear in INOpress, where Russia will look like a "re-post".
            Simply, the Chinese managed to steal and clone (and very successfully!) A very large number of advanced technologies in a short time. I wouldn’t have anything against it if we had made the same leap in the field of electronics.
            1. +5
              11 September 2012
              Quote: esaul
              electronics


              Valera, in the field of mechanical engineering, electronics without a sensible poppycock machine, but otherwise I agree.

              Quote: Steam Train
              It is necessary to hang a bucket and a rag on the product


              Hi Zhenya. As for the bucket, this is true. I’m just curious, counterintelligence doesn’t sleep, is she sleeping soundly?
              1. +1
                11 September 2012
                Not just sleeping - the counterintelligence has a bucket on his head and a rag on his eyes .... Nothing is visible at all, however. And then there is the damn mystery in everything ...
              2. 0
                11 September 2012
                Quote: vorobey
                Valera, in the field of mechanical engineering, electronics without a sensible poppycock machine, but otherwise I agree.
                - Well, not really. Man as an organism is also not so hot as the best of animals, especially predatory mammals. In its weight category (male, on average, 80 kg) - weaker than the brow in all respects - strength, dexterity, endurance, etc. - there is simply no. But this does not prevent the brow from being the strongest. Roughly speaking, the electronic provision of a brow provides him with all the advantages. In technology, alas, the same trend. Electronics in Russia must be pressed hard. Everything else is right in the area of ​​software in Russia - with its mathematical traditions in the field of algorithms, Russia will give odds to any state, except, perhaps, India. But with iron seams in Russia, it’s really bad. Intel is already going for 20 nanometers, ours cannot be mastered and 90
            2. +5
              11 September 2012
              Quote: esaul
              Simply, the Chinese managed to steal and clone (and very successfully!) A very large number of advanced technologies in a short time. I wouldn’t have anything against it if we had made the same leap in the field of electronics.

              Hello Valera! What the Chinese are doing now, we did in our time without a twinge of conscience. The most striking example of this is the B-29, which, on Stalin's orders, was copied exactly to the Leica camera that the American pilot left there. As a result, we got an excellent Tu-4 and a huge technological leap in many industries. production and processing of metals, electronics, engine building, etc., etc. And most importantly, we learned how to make intercontinental bombers. And this happened more than once during the development of our army and navy, there are a lot of examples. And the Americans did not hesitate to steal technology and development from us. Is it any wonder that China is following much the same path? True, unlike us and the Americans, they probably don't want to invent anything themselves.
              1. 0
                11 September 2012
                Quote: Victor
                What the Chinese are doing now, in our time, without a twinge of conscience, we did.


                Salute, Victor, once more. This is what I meant, saying that this is an international practice.
          2. 0
            11 September 2012
            This is called "udna" and has little to do with the peace treaty. A respite before the fight, or rather. Al Qaeda is running out of steam. Interesting.
    2. Tirpitz
      +2
      11 September 2012
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Now, if China refuses to copy and begins to invent something himself, then this will be news.

      The same applies to the Russian Federation. It would be possible to copy, for example, American drones - would copy for a long time. Yes, only the United States protects secrets, and we have everything at the Stone Age level with drones.
      1. 0
        11 September 2012
        It would be possible to copy, for example, American drones - would copy for a long time.

        You yourself answered - technology in the Stone Age ...
        1. +2
          11 September 2012
          Quote: PSih2097
          You yourself answered - technology in the Stone Age ...

          I can argue here. We have achievements that no one has, but at that moment when they were made no one thought about their need. Now everyone has forgotten about them, although if you change the element base and some materials it will be no worse than in the west. The Chinese do not disdain even our not the latest developments knowing that they are not yet completely out of date. It is not required to copy the drone of enormous knowledge, the question is whether we need it with our concept of armaments. Do not forget that you can rivet a lot of different types of equipment, but in the end it turns out that using this motley company is extremely inefficient.
          1. Tirpitz
            +3
            11 September 2012
            Quote: Steam Train
            here the question is whether we need it with our concept of weapons

            but in the Moscow region they know what we really need?

            Here's a photo of 3pcs of Chinese Type 71 (a copy of San Antonio). They build a fleet and do not steam. and here they’re trying to give birth to 20 le across the floor of the corvette, but all are so proud that our technology is 300 years ahead of time.
            1. +1
              11 September 2012
              Quote: Tirpitz
              but in the Moscow region they know what we really need?
              Most likely they don’t know there. And they can’t know. This is not a burratino profile; he is more in finance.
              Quote: Tirpitz
              They build a fleet and do not steam. and here they are trying to give birth to 20 half a corvette, but all are so proud that our technology is ahead of time by 300 years.
              Solving the concept and giving MOT is the business of experienced military personnel. Those who imagine how and by what means will solve the tasks, and engineers who have developed something advanced have the right to be proud of it (even if it is not in demand by the state)
  2. +4
    11 September 2012
    They are doing everything right! Russia is moving along the same path - the purchase of foreign technology and its study to find new and interesting ideas!
    1. +4
      11 September 2012
      Good morning everyone!
      Quote: Karavan
      Russia is moving along the same path - the purchase of foreign technology and its study to find new and interesting ideas!
      - That's it for the New and Interesting - The Chinese in 90% of cases copy without improvement! they just could copy what they did - what they could not (as in this case aircraft engines) - or they buy originals and change to their own designs - and still with far worse possibilities.
      1. +1
        11 September 2012
        Quote: kotdavin4i
        The Chinese in 90% of cases copy without improvement!
        If your type of weapon is new for your country, you can copy it to the extent that only the color is different. In the meantime, this will be enough for the Chinese. They still did not learn how to copy planes under 100%, but what they did well is that having mastered the matter, they instantly put it on stream. And in the future, if not by quality, then by quantity, they will take their own!
  3. sahha
    0
    11 September 2012
  4. +3
    11 September 2012
    Good morning everyone, tell me, does it make sense to change 19 tons to 50 tons? According to the characteristics, it seems to be better, but weight?
    1. +2
      11 September 2012
      Greetings Igor. For destroyer class ships, extra 30 tons is not a problem. Displacement allows. But with smaller class ships (they didn’t specify which one), the frigate can still be lifted, but whether the corvette is lying.
      1. +2
        11 September 2012
        Locomotive,
        Good morning, Eugene, here I am about smaller class ships, and the wording embarrasses me, maybe someone sold it or, as they say, leaked it? I don’t really believe in stupid copying by China now.
        1. 0
          11 September 2012
          Quote: igor67
          I don’t really believe in stupid copying by China now.
          They just took the base and processed for themselves. You see, it’s impossible to simply remove one gun from a ship and put another (at least the cellar should be the same and many other facts) And Sergei wrote correctly below.
          1. +1
            11 September 2012
            Locomotive,
            Eugene I meant copy stolewhile still working at the repair shop, the entire technology for each unit lay in the bedside tables, for example: I assembled boxes of motor and aircraft units on the NK12, in the bedside table, lay the complete technology for these units, modifications to modifications, which engines were reinforced with bearings and gear wheels , So I think with our sloveniness it’s wet or buy, well, in extreme cases, retake feeder circuits
    2. +2
      11 September 2012
      I don’t know if it made sense to change 19 tons to 50, if you compare, it seems that the fake has a longer firing range and a lower rate of fire compared to the AK 130. It’s impossible to compare the mass, because the article says at least 50 tons, and it can be 89 tone like AK-130
      Caliber, mm: 130
      Barrel length, mm / klb: 6990 / 54
      Rollback length - 520-624 mm
      Weight, kg: 89 000
      Rate of fire, rds / min: 90 (45 shots per barrel)
      Shot weight, kg: 86,2
      Projectile initial velocity, m / s: 850
      Firing range, m: 23 000
      If this time the Chinese are not lucky with reliability, it will be better. And if the gun turned out reliable, this is not good ...
      1. +1
        11 September 2012
        Quote: urich
        has a greater firing range and lower rate of fire

        When the gun has a longer range - the rate of fire is not such an important factor, in any case, you have to make serious corrections for the duration of the projectile’s flight, and a bunch of factors. It’s better to shoot accurately and further.
  5. +1
    11 September 2012
    130 mm is something I saw at the Leningrad training ground in 2000, it was there, the firing range of 30 km was indicated. I don’t know the mass, but the rate of fire of the gun inspires. Well, then, the Chinese brothers, they never hesitated, what kind of licenses or patents. We take a copy, approached, do it and spit on them all, they are for ourselves. This is only to our detriment to ourselves and our allies (rejection of Belarusian tractors). Well, that's okay. We are not yet at the last roles. Stalin and Mao are listening to us.
  6. sahha
    0
    11 September 2012
    To moderator
  7. Denzel13
    +1
    11 September 2012
    Good morning everyone!
    Yes, there is nothing surprising in copying. All states have been doing this. If the sample is decent, then why not adopt it.
  8. drossel81
    0
    11 September 2012
    In short, in two words "Chinese industry" !!
  9. 0
    11 September 2012
    Chinese. don't want to waste time. It’s a very long time to develop anything.
  10. 0
    11 September 2012
    I can only wish our Chinese "comrades" one thing: that this weapon should resemble the quality of the Chinese AK-47 or the Chinese TT. The Chinese are capable of copying anything. Here are just problems with "reliability". Reliability and reliability are not copied.
    1. +1
      11 September 2012
      In vain you are so on their AK, as they say, turned out "in many respects not inferior to the sample, but in some ways even superior." wink
      I communicate with one engineer previously working on a project for Raphael. According to him, the ballistic defense was tested precisely by the Chinese AK since (again from his words) the penetration ability was better than that of the original.
  11. kontrzasada20
    +1
    11 September 2012
    What can I always say, each other peeped, it’s not a control write off, we are talking about the defense of the country, so all the grain in the mill.
  12. 0
    11 September 2012
    The end justifies the means, and therefore all means are good. One odious person has already freed his people from their conscience in relation to the Russians. We need to be very careful in our choice of friends so that these "new items" do not turn in our direction. No matter how unreliable they are, they will bring death to someone.
  13. +1
    11 September 2012
    . Type 81 assault rifles were used by the PLA during border conflicts with Vietnam in the late 1980s, where they proved to be reliable weapons, slightly superior to Kalashnikov assault rifles in effective firing range (due to the longer barrel with a similar cartridge) and comfort (due to a slightly lower perceived recoil). The Type 81 assault rifle is a further development of the Type 68 Chinese-made assault rifle, an analogue of the AK-47

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