On the relevance and performance characteristics of submachine guns: a review of Russian samples

Since 2006, special forces have been operating the PP-2000 submachine gun in Russia. This is a 9mm rifle weapon, relatively light (less than 1,5 kg), capable of acting as an effective means of engaging enemy personnel in confined spaces, including premises. This, accordingly, makes it possible to use the PP-2000, developed as part of the Baksanets ROC, in the course of anti-terrorist operations.

What submachine guns are used in Russia besides the PP-2000?

For example, this is AEK-919, called "Kashtan". This submachine gun was created by Kovrov's gunsmiths. At the same time, it is believed that he has a foreign prototype. This is the Austrian Steyr MPi-69 small arms, the production of which was completed in the early 1990s.

Today, experts and representatives of law enforcement agencies often discuss the question of whether the use of submachine guns is generally advisable in modern conditions. Here, not everyone is inclined to share the opinion that such a weapon in the modern era should generally be considered as something serious. Claims are made on the accuracy and firing range, on the amount of ammunition at a relatively high rate of fire. However, all these claims are swept aside by many of those who not only held such a weapon in their hands, but also performed real combat missions with it.

The Lazarev Tactical channel provides an overview of the submachine guns that are used in our country. In addition to the named AEK-919 "Kashtan" and PP-2000, these are also "Vityaz SN", SR-2 "Veresk".

About their relevance and performance characteristics:

Comments

[Max PV]

Claims are made on the accuracy and firing range, on the amount of ammunition at a relatively high rate of fire.

This is a misfortune for many PP users, even those with combat experience. People perceive AK as a standard, and for some reason consciously or subconsciously expect the same from PP, but with low weight and size. And they also do not take into account the peculiarities of the weapon, and the fact that the techniques typical for shooting from an AK in the case of a PP may be ineffective. I met the opinion about Stechkin that he was bad, since it is difficult to cut off the bursts of basement - three shots, and even from a holster-butt at 100m it is difficult to fire them with them. Incidentally, this is what the intelligence officer said. Although, of course, the fact that he generally managed to cut off a queue of 2-3 shots at Stechkin, in itself deserves respect. The real plus of the PP, which outweighs any shortcomings, especially for law enforcement officers, is the lower tendency of the bullet to ricochet - whoever fired 5,45 cartridges in the room knows that well.

[Avior]

I think that in modern army conditions, the PP is a weapon of self-defense, based on this, it is necessary to approach with the requirements for it.

[Most polite]

What submachine guns are used in Russia besides the PP-2000?

In my opinion, the most complete catalog of PCBs is best presented in STALKER OP - 2.1.

[Olgerd Gediminovich]

Dear author,
I will not say for sure, fortunately or unfortunately, but no top 10/20/30, etc. in our country, no.
Some special forces of the Ministry of Defense, the FSB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and other departments are currently armed with submachine guns. And they don't have much choice.
There are more or less overexposed samples, and there are ones that are carefully hidden during use or forgotten - nothing more.
The first are:
- irreplaceable PP-91 "Kedr" and PP-9 "Klin" - are widely used in almost all divisions of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (and in other departments) from the 90s to the present
- PP-19-01 "Vityaz" and its later modifications - often glow when covering the special operations of the Ministry of Internal Affairs on TV since 2004.
- PP-2000 - I suppose everyone who is a little versed in modern weapons, at least once saw the outfits of the PPS armed with this submachine gun
- CP-2 - sometimes they also light up on TV. As far as I remember, Dmitry Anatolyevich gave the green light to this product at one time.
Well, the little-known ones include:
- PP-19 "Bizon" - whoever had anything to do with the Chechen wars remembers them well. For the rest, this is a forgotten exotic.
- AEK-919K "Kashtan" - is widely used in a narrow circle (just kidding). In reality, it is only known that they are armed with the protection of the first person.
- PP-90, PP-90M - I suppose they are still gathering dust in the parks of special forces, but I have not seen any mention of their open use. It is inconvenient to work with them, and it is always a pity to throw them away.
- PP-90M1 is a competitor of Bizon from Tula. It was upgraded several times. But the application is also not advertised.
These are not all samples, of course. But those that produced a lot.
You can say a lot about where which PPs were tested and who they planned to equip with them, but this does not really matter for the real state of affairs.

[Jan]

Here's what is most interesting: not who does not voice what PPs are for today! Based on the voiced wishes, the concept is based on two or three "whales": light and the ammunition does not ricochet ... which fully explains the choice of the 9x19 cartridge. But what about the stopping action of the ammunition? Maybe it makes sense to go back to "Russian .40" ?! Well, the stupid scaling of the "Kalash" under 9x19 causes only condolences to the "mighty" concern!

[Alex777]

The most famous PCB in the world, the H&K MP5, is made by scaling.
The military, IMHO, the PP may be needed only when storming the city.
Here's another PP pilots decided to take for self-defense.
First of all, this is a police weapon.

[grumbler]

If we exclude from consideration the civil police / anti-terror / special forces and other "assault groups" (for which the "assault PP" is a natural tool) and talk specifically about the army, then in this context, PP should be compared not with assault rifles, but with army pistols (AP).

There is a growing number of military personnel in the armies who are not directly involved in small arms combat. They will serve in the green / yellow zone. These are operators of unmanned systems, technicians, engineers, doctors, rear services, logistics, military police and security ... But all these people must be armed (in case of sabotage, riots, etc.) and to develop the self-awareness of "a man with a weapon" (without this there is no military man).

AP is of little use for this. It requires good, sustained shooting skills from any position, with breathlessness, even if you equip the AP with a collimator sight (but then its dimensions will come very close to the compact SM). It is clear for the "personnel" shooting practice will be an irregular matter - they will not have these skills (this is often demonstrated by the police - they turn out to be psychologically and technically unprepared to use pistols). The ammo reserve of the AP is too small - it cannot create a cloud of bullets that would allow a bad shooter to hit / suppress the target. Conclusion, in conditions of excess, personnel will not be able to effectively use the AP.

And here the PP turns out to be very useful. The PC is compact (will not interfere too much with the performance of the personnel of their immediate duties). Has a large store. Equipped with a collimator sight. It has comfortable grips and a folding stock. All this increases the likelihood of hitting the target by a bad shooter. That. The SM is a reasonable replacement for the AP in the army (and in the "orange / red zone" a field medic-evacuator may be more comfortable with the SM than a bulky assault rifle).

[awdrgy]

It's also good to shoot back from bandos. And at home and on the road, well, as a last chance, of course (they always have superiority both in number and in surprise). In this regard, the less, the easier and the lower the return, the better (just for a not very well-trained shooter). Magazine still needs more. In short, an irreplaceable thing in the household. I liked the PP 2000 and also the Swiss ratchet. Cool article.

[cat Rusich]

Quote: grumbler

There is a growing number of military personnel in the armies who are not directly involved in small arms combat. They will serve in the green / yellow zone. These are operators of unmanned systems, technicians, engineers, doctors, rear services, logistics, military police and security ... But all these people must be armed (in case of sabotage, riots, etc.) and to develop the self-awareness of "a man with a weapon" (without this there is no military man).

That. The SM is a reasonable replacement for the AP in the army (and in the "orange / red zone" a field medic-evacuator may be more comfortable with the SM than a bulky assault rifle).

Maybe M44 9x19mm ...
That is, PPS-43 chambered for 9x19mm.

[grumbler]

In my opinion, these are just typical "assault PP" - I would not say that they are compact ("personnel self-defense weapon"). I’m more about those that are not much larger than a pistol: PP-93, "Kedr", MP5, MP9, TEC-DC9,9А-91. I rely on the reviews:
https://topwar.ru/158251-dalnejshee-razvitie-pistoletov-pulemetov-.html
https://topwar.ru/158055-pistolety-pulemety-jepohi-peremen-i-patrony-dlja-nih.html
https://topwar.ru/158891-pistolety-pulemety-novyj-dizajn-i-konstruktorskie-uhischrenija.html

Those. In MIL-SPEC, you can require 2 basic types of PP: "light PP" (as a personnel self-defense weapon) and "assault PP". But I repeat, in my non-authoritative opinion "assault PP" is more about police "assault groups", anti-terror, etc. than about the army.
Although the "assault PP" in the army also has a number of narrow tasks - these are battles in tight spaces, tunnels, you can arm pilots with them (but, in general, it seems to me that the closer to the front line, the less appropriate the PP is there).

[cat Rusich]

Quote: grumbler

: "light PP" (as a personnel self-defense weapon)
, you can equip pilots with them.

Better is a "regular pistol" with a magazine for 15 rounds + 1 spare cartridge in a holster (as a last resort ...)

[Jan]

"The world's most famous PCB, the H&K MP5, is made by upscaling."
Probably scaled with G3;). But here's the question: there are already "shortcuts" like AKSU and AK104 why are they bad for these purposes! For the cops, those PPs that have already been stamped will come down. MTRs have their own "shorty" under paton 9x39. It's easier to release a shellless or expansive ammunition to it!

[SVD68]

Where is the relevance of submachine guns?

[riwas]

Our PPs have a caliber of 9 mm. Abroad, compact weapons of smaller calibers are popular: the 4,6 mm German MR-7 submachine gun, the 5,7 mm FN P90. The advantage of the latter: less recoil, more flat trajectory of the bullet, easier ammunition stock. The disadvantage is less lethality and the stopping effect of the bullet. True, in the presence of a body armor in a 9-mm, only a core of a smaller caliber passes inward. Now, if it was possible to develop a sub-caliber bullet for a 9-mm cartridge with "hooks" to increase the lethal effect of a bullet, like a "screwdriver", but with a reverse sweep. A schematic picture (rather rough) is shown below. The pallet will have rounding to ensure the free chambering of the bullet.

A similar analogue of ALPHA HUP, caliber 12,7 mm, bullet weight 21 g, muzzle velocity 1005 m / s, from Astra Defense Systems and Alpha Ammunition Ltd., UK.

[Baron pardus]

What is the most important thing for ANY weapon? Possibilities of hitting targets with body armor and behind obstacles, well, and the very damaging effect of a bullet. And what do we have on the way out in Russia?
We have several pistol ammunition in Russia:
a) 9x18. Not a bad cartridge for civilian self-defense, but no more.
b) 9x19. Better, more powerful, but still body armor or there are less serious obstacles does not break through
c) 9x21 Gyurza. I already wrote about it. This cartridge loses in ALL indicators not only 357 Sig, but also the old man 38 Super.
And that's all. On this we ran out of pistol cartridges
What else is there? There are 9x39. But this is not a pistol cartridge in size at all. In terms of size and dimensions, this is already closer to 300 Blackout (7.62x35) and 7.62x39, and at the same time to 6.8 TWS and 6.5 Grendel, hopelessly losing to them in power. That is, the cartridge is healthy, but only inferior to cartridges with similar dimensions. And I don’t need to talk about the "subsonic" version 9x39. The 300 Blackout has exactly the same subsonic variant.

And here's another small fact that makes you scratch your turnip. Muzzle energy of the vaunted 9x39 - 880 joules at its best. (Not subsonic).
But, for comparison, another cartridge 7.62x33, also known as .30 Carbine. Muzzle energy 1380 joules. And this is with smaller dimensions than 9x39.

Nothing like 5.7x28 was made in Russia.

Although the PPs made in Russia are quite good, their relevance in modern combat is minimal, since it is limited by frankly weak ammunition.

[Bobik012]

You know better from the couch what kind of ammunition we need ...

[Baron pardus]

I know better, because unlike many "experts" I not only served in combat units, not only took an active part in the battles in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also have not the smallest collection of weapons and ammunition and regularly go to the shooting range. Unlike some of the M1911, FAL and Cz75 seen only in video games. And even I can see that the ammunition is obviously weaker than not only its direct competitors, but also the old 38Super. You need to be able to create 9mm ammunition, almost identical in size, but inferior to 9mm ammunition created 100 years ago in ballistics. It cannot be called otherwise than sabotage and sabotage.

[Bobik012]

Nude nude Go on ...

[bunta]

Quote: Baron Pardus

the vaunted energy of the vaunted 9x39 is 880 joules at its best. (Not subsonic).
But, for comparison, another cartridge 7.62x33, also known as .30 Carbine. Muzzle energy 1380 joules. And this is with smaller dimensions than 9x39.

Warm with soft? 9x39 subsonic speed, for which it was created - 305 m / s, bullet weight 16 grams, hardened steel core. At 0.30 600 m / s, 7 grams, lead in the sheath.

[Baron pardus]

About the confusion of warm and soft. A bullet with a steel core can be made UNDER ANY cartridge. Even under .177. As for the "subsonic" cartridges of one caliber or another. Cartridge .30 Carbine was given for the sake of example of a smaller cartridge, with a blunt-headed bullet that has MORE energy. By the way, an armor-piercing bullet can also be made under it. They did the same for the PCA. I mean. All this is easily achieved by changing the weight of the bullet. For example. Caliber 300 Blackout, if loaded with a bullet weighing 200-250 grains (13+ grams), will be SUBSOUND. The same cartridge, if you equip it with a bullet of 110-147 grains, will be OVER sonic. Learn physics. Likewise, the same .30 carbine can be safely loaded with a heavy steel-coated bullet and you will receive a cartridge that:
a) Less overall than your vaunted 9x39 - that is, it will fit into the store easier and more.
b) Has more energy.
c) Due to the improved ballistic coefficient, it is more flat.

By the way, 300 Blackout (7.62x35.- converted from 5.56NATO. And this is precisely the subsonic ammunition. Which is already developed, already in production and covers your 9x39 like a bull sheep in ballistics. Well, create a bullet with a steel or any core for any cartridge It was not difficult at all, it was even built for 7.62x25, both in the USSR and in Czechoslovakia, the Czechs even had an enhanced version, only for the Ca23 machine gun pistols.
It seems to me that it would be wiser to make 9x39 only with a heavy bullet instead of 7.62x39, and designate it differently, not 7.62x39, but 7.67x39 there. In the USA, many fieldcatters make just such subsonic ammunition for SKS and AK. they simply shove a bullet weighing 43g or even 200g into the sleeve from the M220 cartridge. And you don't even need to change the barrel. The rifling step on the SCS quietly stabilizes such a bullet. I can provide links to relevant articles.

[bunta]

Quote: Baron Pardus

By the way, 300 Blackout (7.62x35.- converted from 5.56NATO. And this is precisely the subsonic ammunition. Which has already been developed, already in production and covers your 9x39 like a bull sheep in ballistics.

From the line 0,300 we take for comparison with the same bullet mass:

0.300 - bullet 15.5 g, 281 m / s, 560 J
9x39 (SP-6) - bullet 16 g, 305 m / s, 754 J
And this is not comparing penetration.

Who is the bull and who is the sheep?

Quote: Baron Pardus

About the confusion of warm and soft. A bullet with a steel core can be made FOR ANY cartridge.

There is such an anecdote:
"- I will plow this field in three days!"
"- and I for two!"
"- and I for a day!"
"Well, here you go ..."