Military Review

"Spanish road" of the Habsburgs

239
"Spanish road" of the Habsburgs
Cornelis de Val. "Spanish soldiers in a bivouac"


Once upon a time, as a teenager, I no longer remember in which book, the expression "Spanish Road" caught my attention. The journey along it, based on the context, was somehow very long and difficult. I then quite logically assumed that the roads in medieval Spain were completely useless. True, I did not quite understand why. Solid pits, potholes and "seven bends per mile"? The wilderness is complete and there is not even the slightest sign of infrastructure? Or are robbers playing around everywhere and have to travel in roundabout ways - like we have to Chernigov from Murom (before Ilya Muromets tears from the stove)?

Or maybe it's some kind of figurative expression at all, like: "The way to Canossa"?
The question also arose: do they have such roads throughout Spain? Or is it just one? And which one?

At that time, no one had even heard of the Internet. I didn’t go to the library especially to search for reference books (you understand, at that age there were more pressing matters).

Later I learned that the Spanish Road was located outside of Spain and passed through the territory of other countries.

She had several routes, she led to the Netherlands, and only military people traveled along it. The "Spanish road" did not even begin in Spain, but in the north of Italy - in Milan, which served as a gathering place for the Flanders army. The most "lucky" of the soldiers got to the Netherlands in a very roundabout way: from the interior Spanish regions through Barcelona and Genoa followed to Milan, then to Besançon, where the road was divided into two main branches.

In general, this path was indeed long and difficult. And in Spanish since then there has been an idiom for some difficult and difficult task: "Poner una pica en Flandes" ("bring a pikeman to Flanders" or something like that).


Pikeman. Drawing from the textbook "Military exercises for musket and lances", edition 1607 The Spaniards, by the way, called the pica "lady and queen weapons».

Speech, as you probably already guessed, is about the notorious Eighty Years War of the Netherlands for independence from Habsburg Spain.

Let's first remember how this northern country was kind of subordinate to the Spaniards.

Spanish Netherlands


During the early Middle Ages, the territory of the modern Netherlands was occupied by the tribes of the Franks, Saxons and Frisians. Historically, the southern part of these lands came under the rule of Frankish kings, and in the north for some time there was an independent Frisian kingdom, which, however, was also later annexed to Francia (734). After the collapse of the empire of Charlemagne, these territories became part of the Mid-Frankish kingdom. After the middle son of the emperor, this state was often called Lorraine.


Later, Brabant, Friesland, Holland, Utrecht and Gelre emerged on these lands. By 1433, a large area of ​​what is now the Netherlands was part of Burgundy. These lands were inherited in 1482 by the son of Mary of Burgundy Philip I the Handsome, who belonged to the Habsburg family. He became the husband of the Castilian queen Juana I (Mad). Their son, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain, declared the Dutch lands to be the hereditary possession of the Habsburgs.


Empire of Charles V

Part of his possessions outside Spain, including the Netherlands, was transferred by Charles V to his son Philip II in 1556. At the same time, they were separated from Spain by a predatory France, whose kings were not averse to annexing the southern provinces of the Netherlands to their possessions.


Netherlands. Map of the XNUMXth century.

The Eighty Years War begins


When it comes to the Eighty Years War, the events of those years are usually explained as follows.

Catholic Spain, a country of ignorant religious fanatics and obscurantists, brutally oppressed the cultured, rich and freedom-loving Netherlands. The taxes collected here were almost the basis of the wealth of the Spanish Habsburgs.

Meanwhile, Spanish historians claim that their country spent much more on the Netherlands than it received in return. The fact is that to protect this province from the French, a large army had to be maintained. And this army "ate" more funds than the Spanish treasury received from the Netherlands in the form of taxes. Behind the Spanish Peak Wall, the Netherlands grew rich and prosperous. And gradually, the local elite developed their own interests, which were different from those of the metropolis.

Both sides had their own truth. However, it was the Dutch point of view that prevailed in historiography, depicting the "horrors of the Spanish occupation" in all colors and with commendable modesty keeping silent about the cruelty of the Protestant insurgents.

The Spaniards were outraged by the black ingratitude of the traders of the "lowlands". In their opinion, they simply betrayed the empire in a difficult time for it, when they were forced to slightly raise taxes. The war for this unprofitable province was viewed by the Spanish authorities as a matter of honor, which is why it dragged on for so long. Although, given the geographical position of the Netherlands, there are huge difficulties in the delivery of troops there and no less in their supply, it would be much easier and cheaper to abandon these distant and unnecessary "Lowlands".

These arguments of the Spaniards cannot be called completely unfounded.

So, in the Netherlands they were very unhappy with the new taxes, as luck would have it, introduced in the year that followed the crop failure. They were outraged by the restriction of trade relations with England. And besides, even in this province, the teachings of Calvin were rapidly gaining popularity, which, of course, the Spaniards did not like very much.

In the second half of the 1560s, an anti-Spanish uprising broke out in the Netherlands, which marked the beginning of the same Eighty Years War. The situation was favorable for the rebels. After the death of the Catholic Mary of England, who was married to the son and heir of Emperor Charles V - Philip, the Anglo-Spanish union, which had begun to form, fell apart. Britain's new queen, Elizabeth I, was anti-Spanish, and the Dutch rebel leaders could hope for her support.

And the Huguenots of France at that time captured La Rochelle, a port of strategic importance for controlling shipping in the Bay of Biscay. Catholic Paris was not an ally of the Habsburgs either. The situation was by no means favorable to Spanish shipping, and the transport of troops by sea was fraught with many risks. A strike on the transport ships could be expected from three directions. And the supply of the army by sea in such conditions would be extremely difficult.

Meanwhile, a sailing ship at that time could go up to 120 miles in a day, soldiers on land in a day - only about 14 miles (at best). And the path to the Netherlands found by the Spaniards was not at all close - about 620 miles, that is, about a thousand kilometers. In addition, a large number of Spanish soldiers (as well as mercenaries ready to fight in the Netherlands) were then on the Apennine Peninsula.

Thus, the rebels believed that the Spaniards would not be able to transfer large contingents of their troops to their country and were therefore full of optimism.

Indeed, the Flanders army, which the Habsburgs managed to form from
then still loyal to Spain, the French-speaking Walloons and Catholics of the Holy Roman Empire, initially numbered only about 10 thousand people. But the Spaniards were seriously underestimated by the rebels.

It was then that the most difficult route, which had been operating for more than 50 years, was designed and arranged - the very "Spanish road" - El Camino Español. In total, more than 120 thousand people were brought to the Netherlands through it. For comparison: during the same time, only about 17 and a half thousand soldiers were transported by sea.

At that time, this logistics project was, without any exaggeration, unique and had no analogues in terms of the scale and complexity of its implementation.

El Camino Español


So, it was decided to lead troops from Lombardy through the Habsburg-controlled territories of Central Europe.

The problem was that there was no continuous corridor, and they had to enter into difficult negotiations on the right of passage with the local princes and lords. In addition, this route took place in the immediate vicinity of hostile Protestant lands. Examples include Calvinist Geneva and the Palatinate, which is sometimes referred to as the "cradle of the Thirty Years' War."

The Spanish Road had two branches.

Part of the troops went from Milan through Savoy, Franche-Comté and the Duchy of Lorraine. This path has been used since 1567. Other military units moved through the Saint Gotthard Pass and the Swiss cantons. Or - through the Stelvio Pass, the southern part of the state of the Three Leagues (the future Swiss canton of Graubünden) and Austrian Tyrol. This second, eastern, route had a branch through Worms and Cologne. It began to be used later - from 1592.

In 1619, in order to rediscover this part of the "road", the Spaniards even provoked a religious war in the Three Leagues. At that time, by the way, along this branch of the "Spanish road" they transferred troops not only to the Netherlands, but also to Germany, where the Thirty Years War began.


Routes of the "Spanish road"

At the same time, great pressure was exerted on Savoy by the eternal rivals of the Spaniards - the French. Back in 1601, France annexed the two northern provinces of the Duchy of Savoy. And now part of the "Spanish road" passed through the territory of France, unfriendly to the Spaniards. And in 1622, due to their efforts, this corridor was completely closed to the Spaniards.

And part of the more eastern route of this road ran through the lands of hostile Protestants.

One should not think that, having led their troops along this road, the Spaniards here again “discovered America”. The route from Italy to the north of Europe has long been known to merchants and travelers. The problem was precisely the scale of the transfer of troops. And they had to be carried out more than once: the "Spanish Road" had to operate constantly and without interruptions.

Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, also known as the "Iron Duke" of Alba (another character pretty demonized by opponents who themselves were far from angels), was entrusted with organizing the movement of the first squad in El Camino Español.


Duke of Alba

After the routes for the movement of troops were determined, practical work began - drawing up detailed maps, creating the necessary infrastructure, expanding roads, strengthening old bridges and building new ones.

Organization of food and foraging was a huge problem. Looting your own land along the route would be a very bad idea. And the neighboring ones, too, could be robbed only once. And to bring to the Netherlands was required combat-ready and well-controlled units, and not crowds of undisciplined hungry ragamuffins.

I had to negotiate.

Residents of imperial territories most often received not money, but the so-called billets de logeme - documents exempting them from taxes for the amount of delivery.

Contracts were sometimes made with wealthy merchants who supplied food and fodder in exchange for government debt. Many of these merchants were Genoese.

Most often, the soldiers went in groups of three thousand people (this is the approximate number of one third). The estimated travel time was set at 42 days.


A. Dalmau. "Spanish road"

The first group of troops, numbering 10 thousand people, was sent to the Netherlands in 1567. They walked for 56 days. But the detachment of Lope de Figueroa (5000 soldiers) in 1578 reached the Netherlands in 32 days. Carduini in 1582 brought his people in 34 days. The two thousand-strong detachment of Francisco Arias de Bobadilla, who in December 1585 became famous for breaking out of the camp on the island surrounded by the ships of Philip Hohenlohe-Neuenstein between the rivers Baal and Meuse ("Miracle at Empel"), went exactly 42 days. But some detachments barely fit even in 60 days.

In 1635, France entered the Thirty Years' War, which had raged in Europe since 1618. This led to the fact that the last branch of the "Spanish road" was cut in two places at once: between Milan and Tyrol and between Lorraine and Far Austria. Now it was possible to deliver troops to the Netherlands only by sea. In 1639, the Spanish fleet off the coast of England was attacked by the ships of the Dutch admiral Maarten Tromp and almost destroyed in the Battle of Downs.

And for the Spaniards this was the "beginning of the end." Continuing the war in the Netherlands was now almost impossible.


R. Hooms. Battle of the Downs

Ultimately, it was the cessation of El Camino Español that led to Spain's recognition of the independence of the northern part of the Netherlands (the Republic of the United Provinces).

However, the southern part of this province, which roughly coincides with the territory of modern Belgium, was then retained by the Spaniards. For these lands, Spain had to fight with France in the so-called Devolutionary War (1667-1668), which ended with the division of this territory.
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 30 July 2021 05: 38
    +5
    ! Yazurd Ortu YorboD - we have everything as always. ))))))))))))))

    Good morning friends!

    And where is the former greatness of Spain - Sic transit gloria mundi.

    Thank you Valery for the interesting article. I finally found out after whom the Dutch light cruiser "Tromp" was named after who honorably fought the entire Second World War in the Pacific Theater. The Dutch sailors did not shame the honor of their admiral.

    1. Proxima
      Proxima 30 July 2021 05: 44
      +4
      Quote: Sea Cat
      ! yazurd ortu eorbod

      The kindest morning! Leonardo is resting! lol
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 30 July 2021 05: 46
      +8
      Well side, well, miracle Yudo! laughing
      Above, I could not stick a photo of the cruiser "Tromp".
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 July 2021 07: 12
        +2
        Whoever started sticking it will stick it in.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 30 July 2021 07: 15
          +3
          However ... It evokes. laughing
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 30 July 2021 07: 58
            +2
            "He who seeks - he will always find" (c).

            Or other realities.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 30 July 2021 08: 12
              +3
              As for other realities, not to me, I am a traditionalist.

              "They are looking for firefighters, the police are looking for ..." (c)
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 30 July 2021 15: 52
                +3
                “You will make a lot of discoveries,
                Sometimes not wanting to ”(c).
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 30 July 2021 20: 07
                  +2
                  "Sometimes they come back." (C)
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 July 2021 22: 07
                    +2
                    "All are returning,
                    Except those who are needed ”(c).
    3. Proxima
      Proxima 30 July 2021 05: 53
      +6
      This is very reminiscent of the Anglo-Boer War, where the Boers (by the way, the descendants of the Dutch) fought a war for independence from the British. But in fact, it was a question of who would get the lands of South Africa with potential Negro slaves inhabiting them.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 July 2021 06: 09
        +4
        The Boers, by the way, unlike the British, were already indigenous to their land and they did not exterminate and solder blacks like the Indians in America.
    4. Xlor
      Xlor 30 July 2021 05: 53
      0
      And where is the former greatness of Spain - Sic transit gloria mundi

      In the same place as England ...
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 July 2021 06: 10
        +4
        I rejoice separately for England. laughing
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 30 July 2021 07: 23
          +1
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I rejoice separately for England. laughing

          I also! However, it is still too early to truly rejoice. England is trying hard to get into different countries in one way or another
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 30 July 2021 08: 14
            +2
            "Lady of the Seas" laughing With one aircraft carrier for divorce, Folkland winners. wassat
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 30 July 2021 08: 16
              +1
              They are also trying to build their own roads by land now. And in our direction
    5. knn54
      knn54 30 July 2021 06: 14
      +3
      Thank you, Valery. The topic was really covered in our story in one-sided way.
      Apparently Franco was to blame.
      He treated the Spaniards with respect from childhood.
      The destinies of Spain and Russia are similar.
      Both countries practically defended Western Europe - one from the Steppe, the other from the Moors of the Maghreb.
      From all of Western Europe, ONLY the Spaniards were able to (guerrillas) repel Napoleon.
      Protestants, no matter how they are called (Calvinists, Huguenots) are simply schismatics for me. History has not yet given them the assessment they deserve.
      And today Spain is just a part of TOLERANT Europe.
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 30 July 2021 07: 41
        0
        Quote: knn54
        Both countries practically defended Western Europe - one from the Steppe, the other from the Moors of the Maghreb

        From the Moors of the Maghreb, Europe was defended by various margraves, which were located along the entire border line of modern France and Spain. Catalonia and Andrrra are the remnants of these Margraves ...

        Quote: knn54
        Protestants, no matter how they are called (Calvinists, Huguenots) are simply schismatics for me. History has not yet given them the assessment they deserve.

        Protestants have brought fresh streams into the life of Europe! And what about Europe, which, I quote you, "still haven't given them the grade they deserve"You are wrong. Look at the Protestant countries of Europe - Scandinavia, the Netherlands, etc., and you will see a thriving economy and developed social policy. I hope there is no need to talk about the United States ..."
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 30 July 2021 11: 47
          +3
          "Protestants brought fresh energy into the life of Europe" is a really interesting pattern: Protestants are more adventurous. In the past, Protestant merchants and artisans were superior to Catholics. What's the matter?
          To say that religion encouraged work, but Catholics are not lazy? It would be nice for someone to prepare an analysis. Why is this? I think this is an interesting topic.
          Zulka and I already thought about it and at the first moment decided: climatic conditions. In the north-west of Europe, agriculture gave less profit and people are forced to look for additional income. But if you wish, you can find many weaknesses in our version.
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 30 July 2021 12: 26
            +3
            Protestants are more adventurous. What's the matter?

            Work and frugality are what distinguishes Protestants.
            A rich man is pleasing to God.
            Being rich means you work a lot ...
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 30 July 2021 14: 17
              +2
              Chlor's colleague is "old", but Catholics don't have that? As I remember from school, there is a difference in rituals and that's it.
              Calvanists and Lutherans are close, but not the same
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 1 August 2021 19: 54
                0
                Quote: Astra wild2
                As I remember from school, there is a difference in rituals and that's it.

                There are many differences. At the heart of Protestantism is Luther's 95 Requirements.
                And what a colleague Xlor is talking about means an attitude towards wealth. A wealthy Catholic thinks he is lucky, thanks God for it and takes care of those who are less fortunate. The rich Protestant, on the other hand, believes that God blessed him, and cursed the poor (and even more so some Negroes or Indians). Therefore, in order to be blessed and pleasing to God, one must get rich, take care of oneself quite selfishly and not worry about others. This is in a nutshell.
                1. Astra wild2
                  Astra wild2 2 August 2021 06: 42
                  +1
                  In that case, Catholics are kinder?
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 6 August 2021 11: 52
                    0
                    Is it possible, in general, to speak so about large masses of people ... well, I don't know. But historical examples suggest that Protestants, on the whole, are perhaps more inhuman.
                    When the Europeans reached the shores of America, they met Aboriginal Indians there. And the two branches of European civilization acted completely differently. The atrocities of the Spaniards, which at first exterminated the population of the Antilles, angered some Catholic priests, one of whom, Montesinos, returning to the Old World, began to defend the rights of the local population before the king of Spain. As a result, a number of laws have emerged that regulate human relations between colonists and aborigines. As part of a discussion held in Spain, it was recognized that the Indians had a soul (which was important at the time), which was confirmed by a special bull of the Pope. It became possible to make friends with them, negotiate, marry, and as a result, the population of Latin America is a bizarre and rather harmonious mixture of ethnic groups. But the natives of North America were out of luck. This territory was colonized by British Protestants, whose god and morality allowed the destruction of any competitors if they could not provide effective resistance. They also noted in Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania. Even earlier there was the genocide of the Irish by the British (with the destruction of about 2/3 of the population). The only thing that saved the rest was that the British wanted to be masters, not farmers. But the American presidents of the mid-XNUMXth century covered themselves with shame, calling for a "final solution to the Indian question," and the American people stained their hands with blood, not the last. As a result, the white population of the United States practically did not mix with the aborigines, and the latter were subjected to the most brutal genocide, which led to their practical disappearance.
            2. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 30 July 2021 15: 29
              +1
              Quote: Xlor
              .... A rich man is pleasing to God.
              Being rich means you work a lot ...

              Here's an example of such a hard worker:
              the executioner knows no rest,
              but whatever you say ---
              work on the air,
              work with people!

              And how many got rich by criminal means? Or by exploiting other people, including entire nations?
              1. Andrey Chizhevsky
                Andrey Chizhevsky 31 July 2021 09: 02
                +1
                For the most part, many famous dynasties began their lush family tree with a dusty bush of highway robbery.
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 31 July 2021 09: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey Chizhevsky
                  For the most part, many famous dynasties began their lush family tree with a dusty bush of highway robbery.

                  Yes, Andrey! This is the so-called negative selection, which took place in the countries of the West since the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and is happening now.
                  The most powerful negative characters reach the pinnacle of power!
                  Who went to the conquistadors in Spain? Either the poorest and untalented, who wanted to get rich quickly, or criminals who planned to launder their reputation in this way. And during the wars with the Indians, the most powerful, cunning, mean and unprincipled survived (of them). By the way, they got rich in Russia in the 1990s.
                  Another example. In Europe, for example, an unprecedented negative selection was carried out: beautiful women and black cats were exterminated. But melanists are the best genetically! This is a huge disadvantage of the Inquisition. As a result, black rats bred and in 1666 (!!!) brought the plague, from which a third of the population of Europe died out.
        2. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 30 July 2021 14: 12
          +2
          ..... Protestants have brought new streams into the life of Europe! .......

          And what kind of new jets are that ??? Most of the Catholics (in the newly discovered territories) mixed with Indians and Negroes. And what about the Protestants? In America, which you praise --- how the Protestants behaved and how they are now in relation to the Indians!
          And in relation to science ?! Galileo Galilei, by the way, was a friend of the Pope! Yes, both Nicolaus Copernicus and the great Giordano Bruno had monastic orders !!! And Luther and Calvin, for example, after the voyages of Columbus and Magellan, argued that the Earth is flat!
          And Arnold Joseph Toynbee spoke very well about Protestantism in general. His words about the "blond beast", written long before the Third Reich, turned out to be prophetic! Like this.
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 30 July 2021 14: 49
            +4
            And what kind of new jets are that ???

            1) Sola scriptura. Scripture only. the tradition of the Roman Church began to strongly contradict the Bible itself
            2) Sola fide. Only faith. Man is saved only by faith
            3) Sola gratia. Only grace. Faith is one of the conditions for salvation
            4) Solus Christus. Only Christ. Saints, icons, priests will not give a person salvation.

            Please note that the main thing here is the Bible, where a lot of good things are written, how it is necessary to arrange a person's life. And nothing more. No church tithes, no priests, icons, rituals and privileges to their bearers. Only labor, and it is pleasing to God! God created the Earth, and we must equip it, and not stand in a church with candles, while the work is standing ... This is in general terms

            and the Catholics, that there is no such thing?

            Catholics have it all buried in magnificent rituals ...
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 30 July 2021 15: 38
              +1
              ....... Only ....... only .....

              All of the above is a question faith и a person's personal beliefs ... I have them very different from yours.
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 17: 38
              +5
              Quote: Xlor
              Catholics have it all buried in magnificent rituals ...

              Yes, come on ...
              Do you seriously think that the reasons for the emergence of Protestantism lie purely in some kind of dogmatic discrepancies? It's all just a form, the content of this process is completely different. No, I argue with her, there were also fanatics for whom form is most important, but I hope you are not one of those?
              The cornerstone issue of the Catholic schism is material wealth, money. The reluctance of some to share what they had acquired demanded an ideological rationale, which was immediately found.
              And the Bible can be interpreted as you like, making completely opposite and equally reasonable conclusions from the same premises.
              1. Xlor
                Xlor 30 July 2021 18: 42
                +3
                Do you really think that the reasons for the emergence of Protestantism lie purely in some kind of dogmatic discrepancies?

                I don’t think so ... wink
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Normal ok
                Normal ok 31 July 2021 14: 04
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Quote: Xlor
                Catholics have it all buried in magnificent rituals ...

                Yes, come on ...
                Do you seriously think that the reasons for the emergence of Protestantism lie purely in some kind of dogmatic discrepancies? It's all just a form, the content of this process is completely different. No, I argue with her, there were also fanatics for whom form is most important, but I hope you are not one of those?
                The cornerstone issue of the Catholic schism is material wealth, money. The reluctance of some to share what they had acquired demanded an ideological rationale, which was immediately found.
                And the Bible can be interpreted as you like, making completely opposite and equally reasonable conclusions from the same premises.

                When talking about Protestantism, it is important to remember at what time it arose. During the Renaissance, with its deepest focus on literature and ancient history.
                The study of ancient Greek and later Hebrew languages ​​made it possible to make adequate translations of the Bible. It turned out that the Latin Vulgate sucks. The translation of the Bible into national (understandable to most) languages ​​has opened the eyes of many to this problem. And this was a serious challenge for theologians of that era.
                The invention of printing made possible the widespread dissemination of theological ideas that were previously the lot of a narrow church audience. In a medieval society built on religion, it was like an explosion.
                And yes, many people saw in the emerging Protestant theology an opportunity to free themselves from the economic and political pressures of the Vatican. Therefore, part of the princes of the Holy Roman Empire and protected Luther from the persecution of Catholics.
                By the way, historically for the first time the word Protestants (in the theological sense) was adopted precisely in relation to the princes who protested against the condemnation of Luther by the Worms Reichstag (assembly).
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 31 July 2021 16: 16
                  0
                  Everything that you wrote is, in general, correct. It was all there. The only thing I would especially focus on is the fact that religious teachings that run counter to orthodox Catholicism have always existed. Some of them were even quite popular. But their time really came only in the XNUMXth century. Why? Economy. Labor has become more efficient, people have more time, more prosperity - there is something to lose, there is time to think about how to protect it, there is time to even go to war. Or money to send someone else to war instead of yourself.
                2. Kwas
                  Kwas 1 August 2021 20: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Normal ok
                  When talking about Protestantism, it is important to remember at what time it arose.

                  And this time was distinguished by the accumulation of wealth from merchants and various proto-bourgeois, who for some reason wanted to take political power from the feudal lords. And with the need to bring an ideological basis for this.
            3. lubesky
              lubesky 31 July 2021 13: 39
              0
              If you carefully read the Gospel - the basis of Protestantism, you can read that Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Jesus did not abolish tithes, temples, priesthood and ceremonies, he only in His name indicated the WAY of communication DIRECT with God, pushing the Levitic tribe and the priesthood aside, depriving them of sacredness and usurpation of the sacraments with his teaching. However, this is too deep a topic for one comment ...
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 1 August 2021 20: 06
                0
                Yes, the topic is deep.
                Quote: lubesky
                WAY OF COMMUNICATION DIRECT with God, pushing the tribe of Leviticus and the priesthood aside, depriving them of

                ... control over financial flows. wink That's where the dog is buried!
                1. lubesky
                  lubesky 2 August 2021 00: 45
                  +1
                  Therefore, they killed
          2. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 30 July 2021 20: 47
            +3
            Giordano Bruno suffered for his work "On the multiplicity of inhabited worlds", with which he encroached on the Only True Teachings of that time. I wanted to lay a mine (in the language of one president) under the fact that the World is a piece product, and was created within one working week.
        3. knn54
          knn54 30 July 2021 15: 58
          +1
          Xlor ,.
          The decisive role of religion in the welfare of these countries is questionable, especially since they also flourished under the Catholic Church.
          If the Puritan Cromwell had lasted longer in power, it is not known what would have happened to England.
          And the Anglican Church, which obeys the reigning persons of the country, can hardly be called a church.
          It's REALLY not to talk about the USA ...
          In a country where the rights of Satanists have been recognized (we will not say anything about Mormons and others), Christianity has long ceased to exist at the state level.
          Here the AGGRESSIVENESS of Protestants is off the charts.
          Read the French historians. The Huguenots just brought the country to St. Bartholomew's Night.
          Look at the% of Indians in Hispanic America.
          Compare with Canada and the United States.
          And what kind of Marcgraves are there ???. Where of the following is located in France ?:
          The Reconquista began with Asturias, and only then the Navarre of the Basques, Leon-Asturias, and then Castile was liberated ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Xlor
            Xlor 30 July 2021 16: 20
            +3
            The defining role of religion in the well-being of these countries is questionable

            Let me disagree with you here. Religion is not a standing with a candle in the church, but a system of views that determines being. There is such a book written by someone with an unusual surname for a German - the Saracen. It is called "Germany: Self-Destruction". In one of the chapters, one and the same people from South Asia, but with different creeds, is given, it seems they were Hindus and Muslims. Read it and the differences between them will be colossal! In order not to go far - Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks ...

            If the Puritan Cromwell had lasted longer in power, it is not known what would have happened to England.

            Nothing like this! I've seen whole compact neighborhoods in Pennsylvania, and everything feels secure!

            And the Anglican Church, which obeys the reigning persons of the country, can hardly be called a church.

            I agree. The same Catholic Church with minor changes ...

            And what kind of marcgraves are there ???. Where of the following is located in France?: Reconquista began with Asturias

            The Margravate simply defended Charlemagne's empire from the raids of the Pyrenean Moors. And they were not active participants in the Reconquista ...
      2. Moskovit
        Moskovit 30 July 2021 08: 14
        +7
        In what way are we similar to the Spaniards? Did the Russians conquer half the world and, in the course of the zenocide, a lot of aborigines? Did the Russians expel entire peoples from Russia and forcibly convert all the inhabitants to Orthodoxy? Did the Russians pump out all the resources from the colonies and turned recalcitrant regions into the desert?
        1. knn54
          knn54 30 July 2021 16: 09
          +1
          Alexey, look at Latin America and compare with North America and you will see who was involved in the genocide.
          In Tasmania, a century ago, aboriginal people were hunted.
          CAREFULLY read what the Mayan and Aztec priests did.
          Read what they did with the Old Believers under Peter 1. Whole villages were burned down. But they are also Christians. Only they were baptized differently.
          England ALL life set on Russia, first Napoleon, the Turks, Hitler.
          Perhaps Waterloo. But there, without Russia, Prussia, the outcome would have been unpredictable.
          And Napoleon's French army was not the same without marshals.
        2. lubesky
          lubesky 31 July 2021 13: 53
          -2
          In all fairness, you need to study the issue of demonizing Great Spain by its competitors. And in a simple comparison of Latin and North America, you will see the inconsistency of the facts. It's not bad for you to read about the Maya and Aztecs, their bloodthirstiness and arrogance - the main aborigines of Spanish America and compare them with the natives of North America, whose blood was shed by Protestants and Anglicans
          1. Moskovit
            Moskovit 1 August 2021 12: 40
            0
            Certain nuances in who killed the local population more - the Spaniards or the Anglo-Saxons or the French - does not negate the predatory nature of the conquests. Colonization was accompanied by terror and plunder. In what ways are the Russian people similar to the Spaniards? They are still in character: we were a great world empire.
            ..
      3. Ulrih
        Ulrih 30 July 2021 08: 38
        +4
        The main enemy of Napoleon's England is probably not counted, right? The same Austria ...
      4. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 30 July 2021 08: 59
        +6
        Protestants, no matter how they are called (Calvinists, Huguenots) are just schismatics for me
        They wanted to pay less for church rituals and read the Bible in their native language. smile
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 30 July 2021 16: 14
          -1
          ..... read the Bible in your native language .......

          And this is exactly what Ignatius Loyola and other counter-reformists taught the Catholics!
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 30 July 2021 16: 19
            +4
            It turned out to be more profitable, because the books were printed in their native languages, and not in Latin, if there were no sales in Latin, so why bother? Let the canons, permitted by the holy church, be read in their native language, and not interpreted the canon written in Latin in their own way.
          2. Xlor
            Xlor 30 July 2021 16: 25
            +2
            Quote: Reptiloid
            ..... read the Bible in your native language .......

            And this is exactly what Ignatius Loyola and other counter-reformists taught the Catholics!

            But first they were taught this by Martin Luther and John Calvin. Well, even earlier - John Wyclif ...
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 30 July 2021 16: 48
              0
              .... before ..... Martin Luther and John Calvin ......

              Luther and Calvin and others like them did not purify Catholicism as a denomination! And accordingly, they did not reform it! They are created several new denominations! Within the framework of Christianity, but our own!
              And the counter-reformists saved and purified Catholicism.
              1. Xlor
                Xlor 30 July 2021 18: 45
                0
                Luther and Calvin and others like them did not purify Catholicism as a denomination!

                They have cleaned it well of the dirt adhering to it for 1000 years ...
                Just this and everything ...
              2. parusnik
                parusnik 30 July 2021 18: 46
                +5
                Luther didn’t do much cleaning, he simply said that we shouldn’t shovel money so brazenly, grab power at every opportunity. smile
                1. Xlor
                  Xlor 30 July 2021 19: 02
                  0
                  Luther didn't clean too much

                  Luther was the first. He took only timid steps, as if on thin ice. And others have already taken up the specific cleaning ...
        2. lubesky
          lubesky 31 July 2021 13: 57
          -1
          Who could actually read at that time? Such educated people read it perfectly well in Latin. But the descent of the translated Bible to a level below gave rise to heresy, other interpretations (which is not bad) UNPREPARED flock
      5. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 11: 48
        +3
        Quote: knn54
        The destinies of Spain and Russia are similar.

        I think there are still more differences, especially if you look at the modern political map of the world. smile
        Yes, in fact, the history of these states is radically different due to their different geographical location.
      6. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 30 July 2021 16: 27
        +2
        The destinies of Spain and Russia are similar.
        I wonder what? The number of patients with various diseases, people in the ruling dynasties? Equally slaves spread rot? The peasants were not given land. smile
    6. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 09: 55
      +6
      I finally found out after whom the Dutch light cruiser "Tromp" was named after who honorably fought the entire Second World War in the Pacific Theater. The Dutch sailors did not disgrace the honor of their admiral.

      Before the cruiser, the coastal defense battleship was also called, which served in Indonesia during WWI.
      "Marten Harpertszoon Tromp", laid down by the "Rijkswerf" in Amsterdam on May 2, 1903, launched on June 15, 1904, entered on April 5, 1906, in reserve from May 2, 1927, expelled in 1932 and sold in 1933 for 50 guilders for cutting into metal.

      Bunich wrote that the commander of this battleship politely asked the Germans to get out of the Dutch waters on the Emden - Holland was neutral.
      The Dutch sailors did not shame the honor of their admiral.

      At the beginning of 1942, during the defense of Indonesia, Admiral Karel Dorman was killed along with the cruiser "De Ruyter". The Dutch also honor his memory, regularly naming ships in his honor.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 July 2021 10: 39
        +6
        Kohl, I would not quote Bunich, you can just as well quote Pikul.
        You write yourself
        expelled in 1932 and sold in 1933 for 50 guilders for cutting into metal.

        A little lower
        Bunich wrote that the commander of this battleship politely asked the Germans to get out of the Dutch waters on the "Emden"

        Those are Bunich ... laughing
        Modern air defense frigate HNLMS "De Ruyter" (F804).
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 10: 52
          +5
          A little lower

          It happened during WWI. Where is the contradiction? I wrote that the battleship served during the First World War. "Emden" made its raid then.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 30 July 2021 11: 02
            +7
            And ... I proshlyopal, but still treat Bunich more carefully, he drives a lot of bullshit.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 11: 04
              +6
              And ... I proshlyopal, but still treat Bunich more carefully, he drives a lot of bullshit.

              I know! And I haven't read it for a long time. By the way, Mozheiko also caught up with a lot of bullshit. hi
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 30 July 2021 11: 07
                +7
                I agree. They are both just amateurs. drinks
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 30 July 2021 11: 57
                  +9
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Yes they are both just lovers

                  Mozheiko, the historian was, at least by education.
                  By the way, he had a pretty good popular science book "1185."
                  As a child, I liked books about Alice. hi
                  1. Reptiloid
                    Reptiloid 30 July 2021 14: 23
                    +5
                    ...... books about Alice ......

                    In the modern era, his novels "Favorite" and "Shelter" are more relevant. Show (naturally in hints) all the ins and outs of Western countries and their Russian henchmen. But, I would not advise giving these books to youngsters! And even some of those about Alice
                    And I still sometimes reread the year 1185! Class!
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 30 July 2021 14: 38
                      +5
                      Quote: Reptiloid
                      his novels "The Favorite" and "Shelter".

                      I didn’t read them, but somehow I needed to get on the train a long time ago and asked my wife to buy me some book on the way home from work. Kira Bulycheva brought me, well, I think it's okay - fantastic, in the end: I don't remember what it was called, but I've never read more rubbish.
                      Then I brought it to my wife, I say: read it. She soon howled and said - I will not, and I vindictively forced her. Although I am against throwing out books, even bad ones, I threw this one out.
                      And "1185", in my opinion, is very successful. hi
                      1. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid 30 July 2021 15: 12
                        +5
                        ....... I've never read more rubbish .......

                        I thought about it ... Either sarcasm ... or humor of alien origin ... or was going to educate children on sexual topics ... or even some hints on the topic of BDSM ... or about a fetishist maniac. .. Then I did not understand all this, but then I took it and got rid of some of them. And I still have a part.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 30 July 2021 06: 15
    +7
    The new English queen, Elizabeth I, took an anti-Spanish position
    ... they did not agree on matters of faith, Elizabeth I was a Protestant and did not want to return to Catholicism, which the Spaniards wanted.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 11: 53
      +6
      Quote: parusnik
      they did not agree on matters of faith

      On matters of money, they did not agree. smile
      Religion is just a colorfully designed shell of the question "who pays to whom and how much."
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 30 July 2021 12: 16
        +4
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Religion is just a colorfully designed shell of the question "who pays to whom and how much."

        Good afternoon Mikhail,
        I see you, too, firmly adhere to the correct position of economic determinism. hi
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 12: 35
          +6
          Greetings, Sergey. hi
          I do not know what this crap is called, but life experience persistently tells me that a person can live without prayer, but not without food. smile
          In second place after eating are women, because of them they also swear, but not so much and with the wrong passion.
          And prayer is generally the tenth thing. So, as a pretext for war, if only to use ... But the reasons are completely different.
          However, one can look at this somewhat differently, if we consider religious organizations as commercial enterprises, which they, in fact, are. In this case, religious wars become simply conflicts over the possession of a market for their "products".
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 30 July 2021 12: 44
            +5
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I do not know what this crap is called, but life experience persistently tells me that a person can live without prayer, but not without food.

            As the poet Ivan Bezdomny liked to express himself figuratively: "I agree to all 100" wassat
            But seriously, you are more and more convinced in life that the economy is the basis of everything.
            By definition: Economic determinism is a theory according to which economic life is determined by all aspects of social life.
            And perhaps - yes! hi
          2. parusnik
            parusnik 30 July 2021 18: 37
            +4
            In second place after eating are women, because of them they also swear, but not so much and with the wrong passion.
            If according to Homer, oh, how fiercely they quarreled over a woman. And if seriously to approach this war, again the eternal, loot, trade routes.
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 30 July 2021 19: 36
              +1
              ...... according to Homer ...... loot, trade routes.

              In principle, the real reason for the Trojan War was the same as the formal one --- the First World War: the Thracian Bosphorus and Propontis. It is no coincidence that Constantine the Great began to cobble together Byzantium there. And the Greeks fought not only with the Trojans, but also with the entire Aegean coast of Asia Minor!
              But the wooden horse may have actually been !!! Considering the religious beliefs of the ancient Trojans.
              1. parusnik
                parusnik 30 July 2021 19: 51
                +3
                Is it that in WWI all Europe grabbed the Dardanelles? Explain why France needs these straits? When it stretched from sea to sea from north to south. Colonies in Africa, Indochina? Why Germany? Russia understands. Dmitry, you tie, read Samsonov's articles. hi smile
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 31 July 2021 19: 29
                  +1
                  Quote: parusnik
                  Is it that in WWI all Europe grabbed the Dardanelles? Explain why France needs these straits? When it stretched from sea to sea from north to south. Colonies in Africa, Indochina? Why Germany? Russia understands. Dmitry, you tie, read Samsonov's articles. hi smile

                  hi wassat lol and I not only read Samsonov's articles, but also your comments to them. Carefully. And now I read about aliens. drinks recourse I still can't come to my senses. I haven't read the comments yet. I am afraid of unexpected things.
                  I just saw your comment. The bell didn't ring
        2. VLR
          30 July 2021 12: 35
          +6
          I’m looking at how the governments of the new "banana republics" of Europe are now dashingly and swiftly beating their economies for the sake of ideological principles, and I think: And exactly "being determines consciousness"? Not the other way around? Or is it such a big and pure love for "Big Overseas Brother" that is higher than money? "For a sweet friend and an earring from the ear"?
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 30 July 2021 12: 46
            +5
            Quote: VlR
            I’m looking at how the governments of the new "banana republics" of Europe are now dashingly and swiftly beating their economies for the sake of ideological principles, and I think: And exactly "being determines consciousness"?

            I believe that all the same - being!
            Only in this case, not the existence of "banana republics" (they are an object), but the existence of their masters. hi
            1. VLR
              30 July 2021 13: 08
              +6
              By the way, I recently accidentally found out that Russia also has a "Banana Republic". That is the name of the water park near Evpatoria. I wonder if it is themed? Costumed Somoz and Duvalier go there instead of Mickey Mouse?
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 30 July 2021 13: 32
                +4
                Quote: VlR
                By the way, I recently accidentally found out that Russia also has a 'Banana Republic'. This is the name of the water park near Evpatoria

                There is a water park there, I did not know what it was called hi
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 30 July 2021 17: 49
        +4
        One did not interfere with the other, do not converge laughing
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. tlauicol
    tlauicol 30 July 2021 06: 38
    +10
    Thanks to the author - after all, until today I thought that the Spaniards traveled exclusively to the Netherlands by sea!
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 30 July 2021 07: 17
      +8
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Thanks to the author - after all, until today I thought that the Spaniards traveled exclusively to the Netherlands by sea!

      I also thought from the time I read the Legend of Till Ullenspiegel as a child. From the very beginning I was surprised - how did the Spaniards get there? Then I thought that they had conquered the New World, and now they got here.
      Indeed, a unique logistics project. Thanks to the Author.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 12: 00
      +3
      Mikhail Rodin has some pretty good material on the Spanish road on his "Past" portal. The author is Andrei Miller, by the way, not a professional historian.
      https://proshloe.com/ispanskaya-doroga.html
      I also learned about the "Spanish road" only from this article, however, a little earlier than Valery published his. smile
      If you will, I recommend reading it. smile
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. Cure72
    Cure72 30 July 2021 06: 41
    +11
    Thank you, I read it with pleasure!
  7. Unknown
    Unknown 30 July 2021 07: 00
    +11
    In his youth, he always liked to reread the novel by Charles de Coster "The Legend of Ulenspiegel." Naturally, there was a one-sided vision of this war and the history of the Reformation, inspired by the novel. And I learned about the interpretation of the Spanish version for the first time, an interesting opinion. Yes, when you look at the history of medieval Europe with an open mind, you begin to understand the current relations of European countries, and what countries they consider to be Europe.
    1. SERGE ANT
      SERGE ANT 30 July 2021 10: 33
      +10
      Hello! Sorry, but why one-sided? Normal vision.
      - Woe to us! Cried Ulenspiegel. “The harvest is ripe for the Spanish reapers. Duke of Alba, Duke of Alba is coming at us! A wave rises, Flemings, a wave of royal malice! Women and girls, run, otherwise you will be buried alive! Men, run - the gallows, sword and fire threaten you! Philip intends to complete Karl's evil deed. The father executed, expelled - the son swore that he would prefer to reign in the cemetery than over heretics. Run! The executioner and the gravediggers are near!
      Is it the inhabitants of the Netherlands who came to Spain with fire and sword - exactly the opposite. Here, in general, the author shows some kind of sympathy for one of the parties, or something ... We can be emotional and subjective in the comments, but the author must be impartial in the presentation.
      1. VLR
        30 July 2021 10: 57
        +8
        It's just that each nation has its own point of view on certain events. But PR people are not equally talented. Here, the vandals, for example, about whom I wrote recently, hopelessly lost the information war. The Spaniards did not succeed either, their opponents imposed their point of view on everyone. Although from the point of view of the then international law, the law was unequivocally on their side. And, from a moral point of view, the position of the Dutch merchants was not perfect. At first, as the Georgians (for example) hid "behind the canopy of friendly ... no, not bayonets - the peak. And then, when it felt better, they declared the saviors invaders and hung labels. nobody reproached.
        As for "Til", this is an example of terry propaganda literature. Despite the fact that the main character, if you look at it with an open mind, is a perfect bastard.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 July 2021 11: 00
          +7
          As for "Til", this is an example of terry propaganda literature. Despite the fact that the main character, if you look at it with an open mind, is a perfect bastard.
          Bravo, Valery !!!
          Meanwhile, one more topic for the "literary" cycle.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 30 July 2021 14: 10
            +5
            Anton, greetings. "One more theme" we will fill Valery with orders: you have a "literary" theme, I will incessantly tell about both.
            At Astra: Russian crowned heads "and the domestic life of Russians.
            PS The pre-Petrine theme is most interesting
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 July 2021 14: 14
              +5
              Good afternoon!
              I offered Shpakovsky something similar, but he was too lazy. And Ryzhov has already published a dozen materials on this topic.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 15: 07
                +5
                And Ryzhov has already published a dozen materials on this topic.

                Write yourself, who's stopping you? drinks
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 July 2021 15: 47
                  +5
                  "If I could write, I would be an accountant in Odessa!" (WITH)
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 15: 50
                    +7
                    "If I could write, I would be an accountant in Odessa!" (WITH)

                    Do you remember how in the joke?
                    - Lieutenant, have you been to Paris?
                    - Mademoiselle, are you holding me for an eccentric? What have I forgotten there? Hole hole! Here is Berdichev - that yes, a cultural place! You can drink, and fight, and play the piano, sir!
        2. SERGE ANT
          SERGE ANT 30 July 2021 11: 19
          +11
          character pretty demonized by opponents
          How do you understand this, as in that film: "He, of course, is to blame, but he ... is not to blame ..."? Alba, with his "Council of Rebellions" and "In this city, even the dogs of heretics cannot be spared!" Lamb of God? And what about this
          Huguenots of France at this time captured La Rochelle
          Immediately, a picture is drawn in the imagination - the evil Huguenots who came do not understand where, under cover of night, seize a peaceful Catholic city ... Actually, it was the Catholics who besieged it unsuccessfully in 1573, but in 1628 they still captured it, and so it has always been the stronghold of these same Huguenots.
          1. VLR
            30 July 2021 11: 49
            +12
            By the way, you know, Alba reminds me of our Arakcheev. Both the one and the other are selflessly devoted campaigners who took a thankless job and served as a lightning rod for their emperors, meekly accepting all their guilt. At the same time, both were honest, ascetic and conscientious people who did their job flawlessly. The merits of the same Arakcheev as the organizer of the Russian artillery are indisputable. And yet he did not ask for awards, but refused them.
            1. SERGE ANT
              SERGE ANT 30 July 2021 12: 05
              +12
              Here I agree, "like a dog" faithful served, and when his Philip II, because of the massive protests in Europe against the insane cruelty of Alba, sent him an order to withdraw, Alba did not even believe it, and the order had to be repeated again. Dank je, Valery, heel erg bedankt for the article! There is always something to read and discuss!
            2. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 30 July 2021 12: 16
              +6
              Quote: VlR
              And yet he did not ask for awards, but refused them.

              And he knew how to wear pantaloons ... hi
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 10
                +6
                And he knew how to wear pantaloons ...

                He knew how. These are Paul's words.
                The merits of the same Arakcheev as the organizer of the Russian artillery are indisputable. And yet he did not ask for awards, but refused them.

                In the Gatchina troops, it was he who organized the artillery. In the materials for the exhibition "Pavel I and Suvorov", which Anton and I were lucky enough to visit last year, it is said that the Gatchina gunners were better trained than in the rest of the Russian army. For some reason it seems to me to be true ...
                Another fact. In the Gatchina army, Tsarevich Arakcheev, who was not loved by his mother, was also in charge of the "educational part". Classes were opened that gave a number of applied sciences - mathematics, Russian, etc. Pavel was far from being a dundy and a sadist, but he tried to study and develop his subjects to the best of his ability! Under him, a free (!) Hospital for everyone was opened in Gatchina!

                With Paul's accession to the throne, officers' courses will be created (although they will later write that Cannabich, who spoke disgusting Russian, will use a cane to make esponton techniques - that is, they say, all the training). I think, nevertheless, something was given there from the training. And if A.V. Suvorov immediately began to clown about and bliss from Paul's innovations, then Field Marshal Repnin (the grandfather of the hero-cavalry guard, whom the violent AS "our everything" Pushkin tried to challenge to a duel) did attend these courses!
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 30 July 2021 14: 20
                  +6
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  If A.V. Suvorov immediately began to clown about and bliss from the innovations of Paul, then Field Marshal Repnin

                  Alexander Vasilyevich behaved not politically correct in relation to the leadership, unlike Repnin wassat
                  which exuberant A.S. "our everything" Pushkin tried to challenge to a duel

                  It's still good that most of Pushkin's duels did not take place, otherwise, you look like that, with Derzhavin, we would have stayed hi
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 26
                    +7
                    Alexander Vasilyevich behaved not politically correct in relation to the leadership, unlike Repnin

                    He probably had the right to do so. Nevertheless, much of what Paul introduced was simply out of place ... Although he did a lot of good things!
                    It's still good that most of Pushkin's duels did not take place, otherwise, you look like that, with Derzhavin, we would have stayed

                    He has exceeded "the number of his lives." I sent out these tattered calls on all sorts of ridiculous reasons. And then, when it was really necessary to seriously overwhelm for a justified reason, the guardian angel turned the poet to the limit. stop
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 30 July 2021 14: 33
                      +5
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      He probably had a right to it

                      I suppose so. hi
                      I sent out these tattered calls on all sorts of ridiculous reasons.

                      Honestly, I don't know this period very well, but here's the question: was Pushkin's behavior on this point so different from the behavior of a typical nobleman?
                      Maybe this behavior is typical enough and making constant calls is a certain "bon tone" for the nobility? hi
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 15: 01
                        +6
                        Maybe this behavior is typical enough and making constant calls is a certain "bon tone" for the nobility?

                        God knows. Maybe yes. Although Lermontov was also a brawler, he fought in duels only a couple of times. On the other hand, Lermontov fought in the Caucasus - and there you don't need duels, here's a way out of excess energy and adrenaline - in bulk.
                        Remember, there was such a strange Yakubovich? Not the one that spins the drum, but the one that the Decembrist is inadequate. wassat "Vika" writes that, being in the Caucasus, he personally overtook and killed every enemy! Terminator, damn it!
                      2. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 30 July 2021 15: 10
                        +4
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Although Lermontov was also a brawler, he fought in duels only a couple of times.

                        So Pushkin seems only 4 times, everything else ended in nothing, he only sent out calls hi
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 15: 14
                        +4
                        So Pushkin seems only 4 times, everything else ended in nothing, he only sent out calls

                        I say, the seasoned grunt Repnin-Volkonsky should have taken his heavy sword, tested by the French. fellow what is there to bother with pistols - what else? stop And the life of a brilliant but impulsive poet would have ended much earlier. laughing R-times - and the curly head flew off, fluttering sideburns in the wind ... wassat
                      4. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 30 July 2021 15: 17
                        +4
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        R-times - and the curly head flew off, fluttering sideburns in the wind ..

                        And then what? Who would have written this to us then:
                        "My uncle has the most honest rules ...."?
                        Repnin-Volkonsky?
                        No, we are lucky that most of the duels did not take place. drinks
                      5. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 15: 22
                        +6
                        And then what? Who would have written this to us then:
                        "My uncle has the most honest rules ...."?
                        Repnin-Volkonsky?

                        No, Repnin-Volkonsky would write an article on VO: "How I Ukontrapupil Pushkin." laughing
                        No, we are lucky that most of the duels did not take place.

                        Yes! drinks
                      6. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 30 July 2021 15: 24
                        +4
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        No, Repnin-Volkonsky would write an article on VO: "How I Ukontrapupil Pushkin."

                        As in that bearded anecdote about Voroshilov's shooter: "I don't understand: this one hit, and they erected a monument to Pushkin .." wassat
            3. VLR
              30 July 2021 16: 31
              +4
              No, this behavior was not "bon tone". On the contrary, it was atypical and was called brute-force. By the way, most of the Breters tried to "make a name for themselves" challenging obviously weak rivals - very young or already elderly, or sick ones. Therefore, the Breters were nowhere loved and despised. Most of the nobles were ordinary people with all their merits and shortcomings, and therefore did not seek to kill more people for a trifle reason (at the risk of going to court and ruining their lives), or committing actual suicide, running into a duel with an experienced rival. And if they were forced to go to a duel, there was no way out, they tried to turn it into a formality, informing the enemy that he would shoot in the air, believing that he, not feeling fear for his life, would do the same. The same Lermontov said several times that there would be no shooting at Martynov, and therefore many of his acquaintances with wine and provisions went to the place of the duel, so that later together they would celebrate their reconciliation. Or, if a duel with swords, agreeing that any drop of blood will be considered "atonement for a debt of honor." And the decency was observed, and there was no corpse on the conscience, and the usual pleasant life continues - no reprisals from the authorities.
            4. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 30 July 2021 16: 41
              +3
              Quote: VlR
              And if they were forced to go to a duel, there was no way out, they tried to turn it into a formality,

              That's what I'm talking about: since the overwhelming number of challenges ended in nothing, and most of the duels were a formality, there was no particular risk of sending these challenges without really thinking about the consequences, although in some cases they did come. hi
  • vladcub
    vladcub 30 July 2021 14: 01
    +5
    Valery, Pushkin's statement about Arakcheev is known, I do not remember literally, but: "I am the only one grieving for him" is the essence.
    I don’t know about Alba and I would be grateful if you could tell us impartially about both. It would be fair
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 14
    +6
    And yet he did not ask for awards, but refused them.

    Exclusively.
    From the portrait presented to him by Emperor Alexander (on the neck), he ordered to remove all the precious stones with which this portrait was strewn upon delivery, and handed them back to the treasury. And he wore the portrait!


    And yet he did not ask for awards, but refused them.

    But, we must pay tribute, he also refused the position of a field commander. Under Austerlitz, the tsar invited him to command one of the ill-fated columns - Arakcheev refused. I could not find the strength in myself.
    And the administrator was very efficient and pedantic.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 30 July 2021 19: 49
    0
    Quote: SERGE ANT
    character pretty demonized by opponents
    How do you understand this, as in that film: "He, of course, is to blame, but he ... is not to blame ..."? Alba, with his "Council of Rebellions" and "In this city, even the dogs of heretics cannot be spared!" Lamb of God? And what about this
    Huguenots of France at this time captured La Rochelle
    Immediately, a picture is drawn in the imagination - the evil Huguenots who came do not understand where, under cover of night, seize a peaceful Catholic city ... Actually, it was the Catholics who besieged it unsuccessfully in 1573, but in 1628 they still captured it, and so it has always been the stronghold of these same Huguenots.

    The Russian leaders were demonized in the same way: Ivan the Terrible, and Pavel1, and Stalin, and Beria ... Enemies do not sleep! Everyone is making plans for the further collapse of Our Country --- RI, USSR, RF ...
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 12: 22
    +7
    Quote: VlR
    the main character, if you look at it with an open mind, is a perfect scoundrel.

    But I haven't read it. The book came across, but it did not come at all, even burst. So the "ashes of Claes" does not knock in my heart, and I do not like the Spaniards (as well as the English) solely for their deeds in the New World. I really feel sorry for the Indians. So I'll take your word for Til, Valery. smile hi
    But as for the relationship between the Netherlands and Spain, one can argue here, starting with the fact that at that time the Netherlands were indeed economically much more developed than anything else in the world. There was already real capitalism - they were ahead of the rest of the world. I don’t know where you got the information about the subsidization of this region - on the contrary, I read that these were the richest lands in Europe at that time, superbly developed in all respects. Although it was about taxes - who paid whom and how much - information somehow did not come across.
    My opinion is that Spain, in comparison with the Netherlands, really was a backward feudal monarchy and the methods of government that the Spaniards practiced in the Netherlands did not at all correspond to the stage of social development at which the Netherlands were then, hence the conflicts and, as a result, the uprising, war and the actual defeat of Spain ...
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 30 July 2021 13: 53
      +7
      "Spaniards ('as well as Englishmen)", and the Dutch are better? They are all watchdogs
      It is interesting that the Republic of Ingushetia did not use its "colonies" in this way: Finland even had its own currency. Neither the "enlightened" Britons, nor the Spaniards, nor the paddling pools had thought of this. Only the "backward" kings could have come up with such a thing.
      So: "prison of peoples" is hotly said
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 July 2021 18: 00
        +3
        Quote: vladcub
        hotly said

        In the heat and not by us.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 30 July 2021 19: 17
          +1
          That's exactly what we didn't say
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 1 August 2021 21: 46
      +1
      I've also read a lot about how the Netherlands were capitalist and advanced. But the question is - what to do with resources? After all, as we know, capitalism as such does not produce resources, it draws them from the outside. The Netherlands drew from Indonesia, and at the beginning of the 1600s it gave more than all of Latin America, despite the fact that, yes, capitalism is the most effective way to rob colonies. And why did not Spain like it ???
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 2 August 2021 11: 11
        +2
        I won't say anything about Indonesia, but about England - quite myself, so you can say so. IN
        In England at that time, "the sheep ate people" precisely because England was the main supplier of wool for the Netherlands, their raw material appendage, and landowners drove out peasants-tenants from their lands, turning farmland into pastures.
        And the Spaniards did not like the fact that the people in the Netherlands live richly, and in Spain they are poor. That some hidalgo with a pedigree of twenty generations walks ragged and hungry, and a rootless Dutch clothier eats in three belts and is dressed in velvet. I didn’t like that all the gold, taken with such hard work in the colonies of the New World from the Indians, flew into a bottomless barrel there, to these Netherlands and from there scattered all over Europe, showing up in France and England - among the enemies of the Spanish crown. But I would like the opposite - from there, from the Netherlands, gold flowed to Spain. In Spain they did not yet understand that money should work, the formula "money - commodity - money" was not yet familiar to them. Money should be collected from the population and kept in the chest until you need to buy something.
        This is where a simple way out suggests itself. Since you live so richly and well-fed, you have to share, otherwise it turns out indecently - well-born nobles have a finger, and these hucksters and artisans are rolling around like cheese in butter. We will increase taxes as we do to them. And those did not want to share - why would they? We pay as agreed. We are working, so are the rich. And you go to work, you cannot feed all the beggars.
        There is a conflict of interest. Whether it could have been solved otherwise than by war, I don't know. But to push and kick in the head all those who disagree, and then take away what you find from them, it is much easier and more understandable, especially since the fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers of the Spanish caballeros, one might say, have always been engaged in and everything worked out for them. Well, why come up with something new?
  • Okolotochny
    Okolotochny 30 July 2021 13: 27
    +5
    Good article on "not hackneyed" topic. Thanks.
  • Unknown
    Unknown 30 July 2021 12: 34
    +7
    De Coster himself is a Belgian French-speaking writer, a Belgian patriot who works a lot in the archives. Even taking the side of his fellow countrymen, he nevertheless pursues a line about a united Europe. "These days the noble Ghent refused to pay his share of the tax imposed on him by his son Emperor Charles. The city was already completely ruined by Charles and could not pay. It was a serious crime, and Karl decided to punish him with his own hands, for the filial scourge hurts his mother's back more than any other ... Charles with four thousand horsemen appeared under the walls of the city. Alba was with him, as well as the Prince of Orange. The common people and artisans wanted to resist this filial visit and recruited for this purpose eighty thousand townspeople and peasants.But overweight merchants, called hoogh-poorters, resisted, fearing that, if successful, the common people would receive too many rights. and his four thousand horsemen. But the city loved him, and even the craftsmen returned hopes. Karl also loved Ghent, but only for the money that he received from him, der sting in chests and which he was never enough. Having taken possession of Ghent, he posted sentries everywhere; patrols went round the city day and night. Then, with great solemnity, he announced his verdict ........ Ghent was accused of the most profitable crimes for the sovereign's treasury: treason, disobedience, treachery, rebellion, rebellion, insult to the majesty. 50 - in the "Charles' award" ..... And the citizens of Ghent answered: - The Emperor Karl recently removed his precious belt from the city. - And, answering so, they were filled with anger and shame ... Then Roland, a beautiful bell, attracted his attention; and he ordered to hang in his tongue the one who sounded the alarm, calling on the city to defend its rights. He did not take pity on Roland, the tongue of his mother, over the tongue that called to Flanders, over Roland, the proud bell that spoke of itself: And the people around said that Ghent died because his son tore out the tongue from the city with iron tongs. ....... ". This is not furious indignation at the violation of liberties and rights, but a calm statement of the king's right to do arbitrariness, justifying himself, he also had the right, as our overlord. Then the Count of Nassau of Orange will have the same right. tied by family ties, almost with all the princes of Germany. Hence it follows that we are one Europe and our squabbles are domestic, as we quarreled, we will make peace.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 July 2021 07: 11
    +5
    The first association (if you don't look at the name) was “The Way of Saint James (Santiago)”.

    Yet Don Quixotes do not exist without the habit of driving.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 July 2021 07: 51
      +3
      "On the road of disappointment,
      Enchanted again, I will go "(C)
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 July 2021 07: 56
        +4
        “I myself am one of those who hid behind the door” (c).
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 July 2021 08: 03
          +3
          "And if there are those who come to you,
          There will also be those who will come for you "(C)
          1. depressant
            depressant 30 July 2021 08: 09
            +6
            "She hasn't given up yet, but she hasn't fought anymore" (c)
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 30 July 2021 15: 50
            +3
            “- Tell me, where have you been?
            What did you see and whom did you love? " (with).
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 July 2021 16: 00
              +3
              "On the distant Amazon,
              I have never been "(c)
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 30 July 2021 16: 34
                +3
                “I saw this Italy on the map: boots with boots” (c).
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 July 2021 19: 07
                  +2
                  "But what does she care about me?
                  She was in Paris
                  She himself Marcel Marceau,
                  He said something "(C)
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 July 2021 19: 24
                    +2
                    "She is at least a former,
                    But the subject is Russian ”(c).
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 July 2021 19: 28
                      +3
                      It was about different women.
                      "And I'm circling recklessly,
                      With the windiest of women
                      I've been looking for this for a long time,
                      And no more and no less "(C)
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 30 July 2021 21: 58
                        +1
                        “There are two roads: this and that.
                        That is beautiful, but in vain.
                        This, apparently, is serious ”(c).
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. bubalik
              bubalik 30 July 2021 17: 53
              +4
              We went hiking
              To distant seas
              Off the coast of the french
              Anchors were thrown.
              We've been to Italy
              Where the air is blue
              And there are sailor eyes
              Fogged with melancholy. (C)
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 30 July 2021 18: 57
                +3
                "And I am going, and I am going
                Behind the fog
                Behind dreams and behind the smell of taiga ”(c).
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 July 2021 19: 10
                  +3
                  "Lingonberry fields, cloudberry gave!
                  No mosquitoes, no midges!
                  Well, think about it, I lied ...
                  You have never seen such miracles as me,
                  And I, to be honest, have not seen either "(C)
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 July 2021 19: 25
                    +2
                    "And run to the collective farm
                    On raspberries "(c).
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 July 2021 19: 34
                      +2
                      "And you, Seryoga, don't push!
                      And you, redhead, do not be ridiculous!
                      And you, with a string bag, do not go in front of everyone!
                      The cherries ripened in Uncle Vanya's garden,
                      And instead of cherries - cheerful laughter! (WITH)
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 30 July 2021 22: 03
                        +3
                        “It’s not true: you will quietly approach,
                        You will ask for a shred.
                        What does the knife have to do with it?
                        What is robbery?
                        Change the wording! " (with).
                  2. bubalik
                    bubalik 30 July 2021 23: 22
                    +2
                    What can I say about Sakhalin?
                    The weather is normal on the island.
                    The surf salted my vest
                    And I live at the very sunrise. (C)
      2. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 30 July 2021 08: 39
        +6
        And about the relations between Spain and the Netherlands at that time, another line climbs: "Our roads have parted and we will not meet by chance" (c)
      3. Okolotochny
        Okolotochny 30 July 2021 13: 27
        +4
        Legend, "Sunday".
  • Undecim
    Undecim 30 July 2021 07: 36
    +12
    Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, also known as the "Iron Duke" of Alba, was entrusted with organizing the movement of the first squad on El Camino Español.

    The first group of troops, numbering 10 thousand people, was sent to the Netherlands in 1567. They walked for 56 days.

    The Duke of Alba led this first detachment, covering the entire route with him.

    It should be borne in mind that the Duke at that time was 60 years old and he suffered from gout.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 July 2021 07: 53
    +7
    Refreshed his dislike for de Coster.
    Thank you, Valery!
  • depressant
    depressant 30 July 2021 08: 22
    +10
    Since then, there has been an idiom in Spanish for some complex and difficult task: “Poner una pica en Flandes” (“bring a pikeman to Flanders” or something like that).

    Well, it's like with us, say, from the Moscow region to go to Moscow through Vladivostok.

    Good morning everyone and good weather in the afternoon! )))
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 30 July 2021 13: 33
      +4
      This is called: "seven miles is not a hook for a bad dog."
  • sivuch
    sivuch 30 July 2021 08: 42
    +5
    And maybe I will answer in more detail later, otherwise you won't write much from a moronic.
    So far, only one remark about predatory France. In fact, historically, these lands belonged to France, in fact, like Burgundy. So the guardians only wanted to win back theirs. Another thing is that the Flemings disagreed
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 July 2021 09: 35
      +2
      In fact, historically, these lands belonged to France, in fact, like Burgundy
      Hmmm ... Robert II d'Artois thought so too ...
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 30 July 2021 10: 02
        +6
        Then there were Mont-en-Pevel, Kassel, Saint-Omer, Roozbek. Under the Burgundian dukes Jean the Fearless (who was not fearless), Philip the Good (who was not kind) and Karl the Bold (was on his own head), the Flemings were already shoveling away from them.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 July 2021 10: 54
          +4
          It's right. The question is: where does France begin?
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 30 July 2021 11: 59
            +5
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            where does France begin?

            I guess "from the picture in your primer."
            Greetings Anton! hi
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 July 2021 12: 05
              +4
              The primer is called "Petit Larousse"?
              Good day, Sergey! hi
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 30 July 2021 12: 07
                +4
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Petit larousse

                Petya Russian in our way wassat
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 29
              +6
              where does France begin?
              I guess "from the picture in your primer."

              ... from Murat - handsome curly,
              riding a hot horse ...

              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 30 July 2021 16: 39
                +5
                “Or maybe it starts
                From a frog in a nearby pond ... ”(c).
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 30 July 2021 17: 15
                  +4
                  Quote: Korsar4
                  “Or maybe it starts
                  From a frog in a nearby pond ... "

                  Or maybe it starts
                  with a frog in a court with bechamel
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 July 2021 17: 51
                    +4
                    Bluebeard's wife's song with this sauce persistently asked for comment.
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 July 2021 18: 46
                  +4
                  Well, the owner of the swamp knows better ...
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 July 2021 19: 01
                    +3
                    It just so happened historically.
            3. Korsar4
              Korsar4 30 July 2021 16: 37
              +5
              And the picture is a Gallic Rooster?
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 20
            +6
            where does France begin?

            ... with a croissant in your coffee ...
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 23
              +5
              where does France begin?

              ..from the same hat of the entertainer,
              that somewhere in the closet we found ...
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 30 July 2021 14: 30
                +3
                Here's how to stop being a jester when there are "children of Captain Mikhailov" around ???
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 14: 32
                  +6
                  Here's how to stop being a jester when there are "children of Captain Mikhailov" around ???

                  ... with whatooooo begins Franceyayaya ...
                  From the zouaves of colorful pants.
                  With de Gaulle at the French tank ...
                  And from the line to them. Maginot ...
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 30 July 2021 14: 45
                    +4
                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    ... with whatooooo begins Franceyayaya ...

                    and from the phrase: rua, fart ... wassat
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 30 July 2021 15: 45
                      +4
                      and from the phrase: rua, fart ...

                      with Voltaire, Diderot and Rousseau ... drinks
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 30 July 2021 15: 58
                        +4
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        with Voltaire, Diderot and Rousseau ...

                        Melier, La Pérouse, Montesquieu drinks
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 July 2021 16: 40
                    +5
                    Don't forget about the ECU yet.
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 30 July 2021 16: 53
                      +5
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      Don't forget about the ECU yet.

                      and also a silver sous
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 July 2021 18: 44
                      +5
                      I see the Game has got an addon
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 30 July 2021 19: 03
                        +4
                        Such a geographical "Gavriliad" can be obtained.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 July 2021 08: 44
    +6
    The relationship between Spain and the Netherlands before the 80-year war was strikingly reminiscent of something historically recent - an allusion of the Author or my reminiscence? wassat )))
    Oh, Cleo! ...
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 30 July 2021 09: 03
    +6
    Once upon a time, as a teenager, I no longer remember in which book, the expression "Spanish Road" caught my attention.
    C. de Koster, Till Ulenspiegel
  • depressant
    depressant 30 July 2021 09: 13
    +7
    It should be mentioned that the strategist who led the development of the route called "Spanish Road" was the chief adviser to the monarch - Cardinal Perreno de Granvela.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 July 2021 11: 03
      +7
      de Granvela.
      A great connoisseur of Titian. That is, a man had an artistic taste. wink
      Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi
      1. depressant
        depressant 30 July 2021 13: 46
        +4
        Good afternoon, Seryozha! )))
        Spanish Kings - big connoisseurs of painting, especially portrait - there was no photograph wassat )))

        In particular, such outstanding portrait painters as Alonso Sanchez Coelho and Juan Pantoja de la Cruz worked at the court of Philip II. The founder of the ceremonial aristocratic portrait, Coelho was even awarded the title of court painter. But the portrait you have given looks as if it was written by Anthony More)))
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 37
          +2
          "The evening is drawing near, Antonis is still gone!"
          And you seem to be right, my dear friend, if you compare it with a self-portrait. wink
          1. depressant
            depressant 30 July 2021 20: 50
            +3
            Yes, in general, there is no difference who painted that portrait, the main thing is that it was created and allows us to get an idea of ​​the person's personality. It is worth noting that the great Velazquez and El Greco were also noted as court painters of the Spanish crown.
            And now I started to study the significance of the "Spanish Road" for military science, as well as the Antwerp incident "Spanish Fury" - all this is new to me, I had no idea! wassat )))
            Seryozha, thank you for publishing the portraits! )))
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 55
              +4
              I dare ask. And who is the painter number-ONE for you? In general. To be honest, there is no such thing for me. There is only one criterion: I like it, I don’t like it. Although ... Although? In terms of seascape painting, certainly ours! Aivazovsky!
              1. depressant
                depressant 30 July 2021 21: 29
                +3
                For me? Certainly, Geliy Korzhev, triptych "Communists". And his other works. He was a great man with a heart for the Russian people. Even then he understood what they were doing to us.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 38
                  +1
                  The Communist Party! So carried away by the conversation about hockey, that about you, my dear lady, is to blame. But ... did not notice. Who is such cake?
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 30 July 2021 21: 42
                    +1
                    Well, how who? wassat )))
                    You asked me who is the number one painter for me. I answered. Seryozha, don't get distracted from hockey! )))
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 53
                      +1
                      Who is Korzhev ???? I'll be back soon!
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 30 July 2021 22: 24
                        +1
                        Road, road you know a little.
                        .
                    2. Phil77
                      Phil77 30 July 2021 22: 29
                      +1
                      Come on, let's talk, my friend !!! It doesn't matter if I'm drunk, fixing it? Communication is important, no? I'm on vacation !!! ¡
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 30 July 2021 22: 57
                        +2
                        It means so.
                        Open Yandex and request "Artist Geliy Korzhev".
                        The page will open. You go down along it to the inscription "pictures by request artist Geliy Korzhev".
                        There are only ten pictures, and then the arrow "show more", press, and you will open the vast world of modern Bosch, the greatest artist of the 20th century, unsurpassed in his fury of criticism of capitalism in his paintings. An artist who has gone underestimated by our contemporaries. A piercing singer of the purity of those who laid down their heads in the Second World War, an angry critic of what was done to us. I didn’t flip through to the end, I don’t know if there is his painting “Get up, Ivan!” Written a long time ago, in deep Soviet times. He understood everything even then. We are not!
                      2. rudolff
                        rudolff 30 July 2021 23: 14
                        +2
                        To my shame I was not familiar with the work of this master. Thank you, Lyudmila! Amazing pictures!
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 30 July 2021 23: 28
                        +1
                        Rudolph, I am very glad that Korzhev's paintings made an impression on you. This artist, with all his titles and regalia, was hushed up in Soviet times. I once saw with my own eyes his triptych "Communists", was shocked to the depths of my soul, I always remember about him. We had great art!
                    3. Fat
                      Fat 31 July 2021 09: 45
                      +1
                      hi Lyudmila Yakovlevna. I absolutely agree with you. The paintings of Helium Mikhailovich Korzhev-Chuvelev literally tear the soul ...
                      Late self-portrait:
                    4. depressant
                      depressant 31 July 2021 10: 50
                      +1
                      Andrey Borisovich, good morning! )))
                      And for me the image of Raising the Banner from the triptych "Communists" became unsurpassed. This face needs to be seen in close-up! Now everyone is saying, they say, let's get angry and arrange the 17th year. But in order to arrange this, you need to have such faces - with a gloomy determination to go to the end, with absolute conviction that you are right, with the conviction that you can only forward, and there is no turning back. They don't think so. The majority, having tensed, begins to fidget with a glance around, looking for a reason for indecision.
                      The leading theory is a bit old, there is no leading theory.
                      And I did find the painting "Get up, Ivan!" They did not listen. No matter how late it gets.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 July 2021 10: 07
    +10
    At different times, the Spaniards spent an unequal amount of time on the passage of their "Spanish Road".
    For example, in 1585, in the summer, two thousand soldiers led by Francisco Arias de Bobadilla and Juan del Aguilla traveled this path in the allotted 42 days.
    It would seem that there was nothing special in that routine trip. Except for an interesting sequel.
    Having reached the final point of the route, and this was an island between the rivers Vaal and Meuse, the Spaniards decided to winter there, but then enemy ships suddenly appeared, led by Philip Hohenlohe-Neuenstein, and attacked the Spaniards.
    The position of the Spaniards seemed hopeless. The situation grew more desperate by the minute. In order to adequately accept the battle, which was supposed to start after the landing of the Dutch troops, the Spaniards rushed to dig trenches and trenches, and it turned out that it was most convenient to do this around the church of Empel. And this must happen! Digging the ground, one of the Spanish soldiers found an icon depicting the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary - just on the eve of the holiday, which was called that - the Day of the Immaculate Conception. It was a revelation from God! By order of Bobadilla, a prayer service was served, which raised the spirit of the besieged soldiers.
    And what do you think?
    The next day, the direction of the wind changed, a hard frost hit, the Dutch ships and the water space around them were frozen. Inspired, the Spaniards rushed across the ice and captured several Dutch ships. The garrison from a Dutch fort located nearby fled, and the Spaniards were able to get out of the encirclement with practically no losses.
    And since such abrupt changes in climate at that time and in that area were not known at all, the occurrence of a natural anomaly, which played on the side of the Spaniards, was considered a miracle. Accordingly, these events were considered a miracle throughout the Spanish army, and in 1892 the Virgin Mary was declared the patroness of the Spanish infantry by royal decree.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 30 July 2021 10: 50
      +2
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, thanks for the interesting addition
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 30 July 2021 10: 47
    +2
    I wish you all a good day.
    Valery, everyone has heard or read about the thirty or a hundred-year war, but I don't remember such a name
  • depressant
    depressant 30 July 2021 11: 17
    +8
    In fact, this was not the case - a detachment of some thousands of fighters gathered and, under the leadership of their commanders, briskly marched along the "Spanish road" to the desired place. There were certainly adventures. Such that strained both the inhabitants of some cities, which the Spaniards passed by, and the Spaniards themselves. For example, in the early years of the road functioning, the Protestants of Geneva, every time the Spanish Catholics, who had already won the glory of harsh and merciless warriors, hurriedly prepared for defense, and all this reminded a man advancing along a wall, pressing his back against it, in the presence of a lion preparing to jump ... At the same time, it was not clear who was a lion and who was a man.
    And in other places, Protestants grumbled dully, not wanting to understand that the Spaniards did not need problems on the road. Due to the unkind mood of the local population, especially in the city of Palatinate, which was gradually hatching plans to unleash the Thirty Years War, the advance of Catholic troops along the "Spanish Road" was generally not morally easy.
    Another aspect of the "adventure" was caused by the behavior of the owners of the land through which the Spanish route passed. All of them suddenly felt extremely needed by a large and rich empire, which means that personal benefit can be derived from this. Attempts to obtain it were expressed in two ways.
    It was profitable for some to demonstrate loyalty to the empire, and they were eagerly offering their own roads for the passage of troops, literally luring the Spaniards, hoping that somewhere important and necessary it would be memorized. Others began to bargain, demanding some material or political benefit for themselves. For example, even a seemingly loyal Genoa did this more than once.
    As a result, a special position was established, and the official who was entrusted with the responsibility to fulfill it moved in front of each Spanish detachment he led to update the previously concluded agreements. This man had to make sure that no one would block the army's path or set up an ambush.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 30 July 2021 13: 30
      +3
      "benefits of a material or political nature" is purely Hebrew: to take advantage of everything
      1. depressant
        depressant 30 July 2021 14: 20
        +6
        Yes, Svyatoslav, it was so and it is so, which, of course, is sad, but where can you get away from this ...
        Another thing surprises me. Why Kostya did not provide information about the transport vessel
        A-05 El Camino Español.
        The former Brazilian container ship under the proud name "Spanish Road" as part of the Spanish Navy has been regularly supporting the peacekeeping contingents of this country and search and rescue operations for almost 20 years.
        Well, maybe he will remember)))
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 02
        +1
        You know, Svyatoslav, to have a benefit is a trait of any normal business person, regardless of his nationality. Do not demonize the Jews, why? People as ordinary and ordinary people. hi
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 30 July 2021 11: 57
    +3
    "pretty demonized by opponents" is a natural desire to denigrate one's enemy. Propaganda is not invented today
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 30 July 2021 12: 09
    +3
    Good afternoon. This is Katya
    "was considered by the Spanish authorities as a matter of honor" donkey stubbornness cost a lot of material and human costs. I doubt all the advisers to His Catholic Majesty, the official title of the Spanish kings, were all idiots. So the Netherlands were not very unprofitable?
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 30 July 2021 19: 09
      +2
      The locals decided - since the Spaniards saved them from the "French", then they can "come back home - catch butterflies"!
      The Spaniards decided that they owed them, however, for the maintenance of the army ...
      And both sides ran into the "grandmother".
      The Nilerlanders wanted to live under the protection of the Spaniards, but did not want to pay for protection. Well, they didn't want to pay some taxes.
      The Spaniards wanted to receive "arrears" from the "non-Dutch". And set up tax collection!
      The whole war because of the "bucks" (from Buranov lol )!
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 08
        +2
        Conflict of financial elites. laughing
        Good evening!
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 30 July 2021 20: 38
          +2
          Good evening. On Varspot there was an article about the "inclusion" of small Britain in the "settlement" of this conflict. They even sent an expeditionary force there!
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 48
            +2
            Where there is conflict, there is "settling", where "settling" there is money. Why should they be judged? And if money is directly linked to the creation and assertion of its power over the world? Why not?
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 30 July 2021 20: 57
              +2
              Not "tolerant" today.
              Or can they, but we can't know?
              Today the "scribble" was announced - the British "hack" is afraid of an attack from the Russian Federation after the completion of the construction of SV-2.
              Marasmus? Yes! But they have been suffering from this insanity ever since.
              At first the “Spaniards” were bad, then the “Russians” were appointed to the “eternal bad guys”!
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 18
                +2
                So what? My friend, don't you think that this is the right of the strong, but not always the right? Here we are almost always right / in justice! /, But not always .... strong. And even more so how can we someone, something dictate with the representatives of "our elite"? Whose accounts are blocked by the command - "Become!" wink
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 26
                  +2
                  You are only to blame for what I want to eat ...
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 22
                +3
                "Tolerance"? In principle, not bad, if we mean exactly equality! Equality before the law !!!! time that my freedom ends next to the freedom of another person! This is the only way!
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 32
                  +2
                  Take Spain - I read that there has blossomed a movement to seize empty apartments and houses by young "homeless people". Who have owners, but who do not live there.
                  And when the owners arrive, the police will "shake hands" - they are people - go to court and prove your rights to your property or "dump" back to the Russian Federation ... And do not distract from the siesta
                  So much for equality and equality and so on.
                  The law that the post cannot be jumped over, you can get around!
                  1. VLR
                    31 July 2021 07: 39
                    +2
                    Quite right, the situation is just wild. They just hunt for empty apartments. This is the tradition of migrants arriving in Spain or local marginalized people. If there are signs that there are no owners or legal tenants for a week or more, the house or apartment is simply insolently occupied, most often by migrants. The main thing here is arrogance and the more it is, the better. It is possible to try to evict, albeit with difficulty, only in the first three days after the capture. Then - long-term courts with no special prospects, especially if the invaders have minor children. Therefore, by the way, it is very reluctant to rent apartments in Spain to families with children. In other EU countries, this is also the case. And this is in states where, allegedly, property is "sacred and inviolable." But the implementation of laws in modern Europe is required only from its citizens and persons with an official residence permit. In regard to migrants and established communities of blacks or Arabs, astonishing cowardice and willingness to yield to them in everything is demonstrated.
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 31 July 2021 09: 48
                      +1
                      It's time to start another "reconquista" in Spain. And then the "Sons of the Pyrenean Peninsula" became cowardly. Surrendered before the new "invasion of the Moors"!
  • vladcub
    vladcub 30 July 2021 13: 25
    0
    Valery, your introduction turned out to be extensive, there is a lot of "water", but not enough for the material itself.
    When I finished reading I thought: "And that's it ?!" The feeling that the material was being prepared in a hurry.
    Do not be offended, but you yourself are to blame: you taught yourself to good materials
  • vlad.baryatinsky
    vlad.baryatinsky 30 July 2021 18: 58
    +6
    Author!
    According to your material, even now go give the history of the kingdom, for citizenship.
    If you do not mind, I would like to add.
    The "watershed" of those events is still evident.
    In the South-East, there are still settlements (Gendrigen, Silvolde and a couple more villages, all Catholics) that defiantly protect themselves from other Dutchmen (Lutherans, Protestants).
    At the celebration of the Nativity of Christ (Lutheran-Protestant version), instead of Santa Claus, they expose the Pope.
    In his service, he has zvarta-pita (an analogue of servants), while all the pits are made up for Africans (local Afro-Dutchmen) never go for these roles.
    As a rule, conflicts arise.
    You have approached the topic very responsibly.
    Thank you!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 July 2021 19: 21
      +4
      Interesting comment! Can I assume that you, colleague, live in the Netherlands?
      1. vlad.baryatinsky
        vlad.baryatinsky 30 July 2021 22: 25
        +4
        Good day!
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Can I assume that you, colleague, live in the Netherlands?

        Quite rightly they guessed.
        Since October 93rd.
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 10
      +3
      In memory of the phrase of Vladimir Pereturin / deceased / -
      "Eh, we would have such fathers from Suriname!"
      Certainly related to football. laughing
  • hohol95
    hohol95 30 July 2021 19: 02
    +2
    The Roman Empire was so magnificent and worth the price!
    Where is that Empire. Only the remains of roads and skeletons of buildings remained.
    The rest was taken to museums or turned into dust ...
    The Spaniards managed to preserve at least the "historical" land.
    Yes "Iberians" do not encroach on their lands!
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 13
      +3
      Why? Great country. European football champion. Art. Automobile building. Industry. Agriculture. And more ... they sing well and sincerely! wink
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 30 July 2021 20: 34
        +2
        Is the automotive industry now your own or ...?
        Football is pure business, like long-distance running in Ethiopia and Somalia. Hockey in Canada!
        Farming - yes! I agree.
        But until recently, the Spaniards were "charged" with the extermination of dogs that had become unsuitable for dog racing. There are few places where dogs can be drowned, but they were hung on trees or thrown into old adits.
        And "Buranovskie grandmothers" also sing very sincerely!
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 50
          +1
          I'm talking about Italy. You mentioned the Roman Empire.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 10
            +2
            Is the Italian Republic far from the Spanish?
            In the auto industry - yes! They didn't let FIAT ruin!
            Lamborghini and Ferrari - for the rich and show-off, like Rolls-Royce and Maybach!
            Football is the same business. Eternal scandals in the government (partying with "youngsters" from the Maghreb countries).
            North of the country in production. South in subsidies !!! As well as our South ... Honor on the lyre, and the return on the soldo!
            The delivery of goods is a complete failure. On production - they tried to cross the Japanese unit with their "venegrette" - the Japanese rescued - the adjuster! The unit is working. My father worked with them in Volgograd and Volzhsky.
            At first, they build rigor in adherence to the project. And when "flying" with a deadline - the Russians drag torches and cutters ...
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 08
          +1
          Oh, well, what I don't understand is the concept of "pure business" in sports!
          A simple example is the NHL. A business project? Rather, yes! Long-term? Yes! Giving results today, yesterday, tomorrow? Again, yes! Where are all the more or less promising young players striving to go, where are all players from US and Canadian universities seeking to go? Where in the end, the Stanley Cup final is practically unpredictable? And where are the good teams - the sea ???? Super Series-72? Not an indicator! World Cup? Not an indicator! Why, you ask. Yes, because for THESE COMPETITIONS our team was preparing for six months. Oops! Sorry! I got excited! In two months! Somehow, buddy! Yes! I forgot to mention that all this concerns the USSR national team. I don’t want to talk about the Russian Rotenberg.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 24
            +3
            All other sports are business!
            And even before. They made bets, made bets, profited from spectacles for the plebs - business !!!

            More or less. But business. As a relative of my wife (the deceased) said, the sporting achievements of my sons (two wrestlers) cost me my teeth not inserted! It’s there in the “south” they collect from relatives on a string “and move their own for the achievements. In the West, sponsors - there is a return - we will invest ... Business.
            I can’t fire anyone - I haven’t become a position !!! drinks
            During the "doping tsunami" Sharapova was "thrown" by sponsors - we say against the "unclean" ...
            Biles was not "thrown" and even made a movie!
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 30
              +1
              Biles was removed! There are "psychotropics" to blame. Although? Oh, yes, there are a lot of these "You did not understand." But thank God, there is still-His Majesty-hockey !!!
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 37
                +2
                Biles "starred" ...
                But the "psychological trauma" of the American-British prize-winners at 200m on my back "penetrated" me to ...
                Do you see them losing to the "doping" Russian "dumb" - and immediately began to "blow the bagpipes" about the country where doping is in all strata of society ...
                Biles will not lose a single sponsor ...
                hi She is not Sharapova - the roots are different and the "color" is different. She is not "alba". She is "colorat"!
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 45
                  0
                  To be honest? I don’t follow. So in the "championship". Why? I think that the sport has remained only in the NHL. For now. But the empty stands / what happened / -depress!
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 54
                    +1
                    drinks
                    I don't follow at all. Neither the RPL nor the KHL. And even more so for the NHL, NBA, WBC, WBA and other "world championships" in North American soil.
                    If you need to remember that the NBA is just fantastic - I watch the movie "Space Jam" with Michael Jordan from "Chicago Bulls" with my daughter!
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 50
                  0
                  How can you not remember the song?
                  "We want to give all the records, our sonorous names ...." Remember, buddy?
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 56
                    +1
                    Alas. I remember that "A coward does not play hockey ..."
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 30 July 2021 22: 19
                      +1
                      It looks like. It looks like. "We will not flinch in the battle for our capital ..., *
                      I can’t give a video, because I don’t know how. But !!!!! But I love it !!!!!
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 30 July 2021 21: 35
              0
              In general, my friend, we agreed! That. The sport of the old days was cleaner! Dirtier, bolder, toothier, more political literate. Anti-communist, but ... more honest!
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 30 July 2021 21: 47
                +2
                Have you heard about the first trip of athletes from the RIV 1912 GTDU to the Olympics in Stockholm?
                An entertaining "trip" without documents and approvals from a family.
                So that's it. There was a wrestler in this team - Martin Klein! He won silver in Greco-Roman wrestling. But!!!!!!!!!
                He had a more difficult schedule and the semifinal match lasted 11 hours and 40 minutes with breaks. Fought with an injured hand!
                In the final he had to fight a Swedish wrestler !!!
                Naturally, he just physically could not go out on the carpet sweating a Swede (rested for 2 or 3 days)!
                Swede "champion". Russian winner !!!
  • sivuch
    sivuch 30 July 2021 19: 20
    +3
    Another story is how the Dutch, and even more the French, strangled the Spanish road. Under Henri quatre, they, the French, were just taking their first tentative steps. That is, they explained to the Prince of Savoy who should be listened to. The main events unfolded under Luja13, or rather, under the new first minister named Richelieu.
  • VLR
    30 July 2021 19: 24
    +3
    By the way, we will continue our conversation about Spain. The next two articles (rather large) are about Cid: the hero Cantar de mío Cid and the real person.


    In my opinion, it turned out very informative, and at the same time it should be good and easy to read.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 July 2021 20: 26
      +3
      Thank you Valery for your efforts!
      It is also pleasing that smart and benevolent people are gathering "under you." hi
    2. sivuch
      sivuch 31 July 2021 08: 47
      +1
      So do you mind if I try to tackle end of the road?
      But I don’t promise that it will work out - the material is huge and not too well known: the Siege of Genoa, the Valtelline Wars, the Mantuan inheritance, the war in Lorraine, Rogan's company in the same Valtellina, Breisach, Downs
      1. VLR
        31 July 2021 13: 04
        0
        I do not mind (if you are contacting me)
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 31 July 2021 20: 00
    0
    Were no Dutch jewelers involved in this story?
  • otto9966
    otto9966 24 September 2021 13: 18
    0
    Yeah ... the gishpants cried with this road .....