E. Oakeshott's swords on medieval miniatures

Swordsmanship. "The Bible of Matsievsky", 1224-1254 Paris, France. Pierpont Morgan Library

"... took his sword and took it out of its scabbard"
(First Kings, 17:51)

History weapons. Last time we finished examining medieval swords on swords "type XII", noting that they begin to change the shape of the blade: the valleys become short, and the blade narrower. But it's still a slashing sword.

But then the first overhead plates appeared, attached to chain mail, and the soldiers immediately faced a problem, but how to hit such "shells"?

This happened already at the beginning of the XIV century. And, although outwardly, under the surcoat, the metal plates were not visible, everyone knew that they could well be there. This means that such a shell cannot be taken with a sufficiently flexible sword with a rounded blade. Useless!

French sword of the early 124,9th century. Material: steel, silver, gold, enamel, wood, leather. Dimensions: length 103,8 cm; blade length 22,9 cm, crosshair width 1644,3 cm; weight XNUMX g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

This is how swords of a fundamentally new type appeared: with a rhombic cross-section blade in the form of an elongated triangle, with a pronounced point. It is clear that this process did not begin immediately, but was gradual. And he touched, first of all, not the blade, but ... the handle. It has become longer and easier to use.

Let's look at this image of two Germanic knights fighting. Well, the fact that they have funny flags on their helmets is one thing. We are interested in the one for whom one checkbox was not enough, and he put two of them. Moreover, he decorated the helmet with a coat of arms. See how he holds his sword by extending the brush. The sword itself is "Type XII," no doubt about it. But its handle is clearly longer. And it is obvious that it was these swords that subsequently developed into the "Type XIIa" and "Type XIIIa" blades. The Aeneid, 1210-1220 Thuringia, Germany. State Library, Berlin

Before us is a beautiful multi-figured illustration from the manuscript "The Bible of Rhymes" 1332, the Netherlands. There are a lot of all kinds of weapons and armor here. But we are interested in two swords from the king on the left and the warrior in front of him. The swords they hold in their hands have long handles. That is, these are "type XIIa" swords. However, the year of the creation of the manuscript is 1332. That is, as already noted, the same swords were used at different times. Meermano Museum in The Hague

And now let's turn to the already familiar "Bible of Matsievsky". In the past material, purely chopping blades were shown there. But let's turn a few pages.

And we will see another miniature, which shows completely different swords - thrust-chopping, transitional, belonging to the "type XIV", as well as one sword "type XV" with a very strong narrowing to the point. That is, for some time there were parallel cutting swords, cutting-cutting and thrusting swords.

It is interesting that, although the fight is equestrian, however, it is depicted so close that a knight in a white helmet, for example, grasps the chain mail hood of a Negro knight with his hand and cuts his neck with his sword. And the rider in the hat-helmet completely captures the enemy by the neck, and inflicts a fatal blow on him under the helmet with a dagger. And yet, judging by the picture, not even one. Such is their fierce fight going on there. But drawing is drawing, but when exactly the "type XV" swords appeared, it is rather difficult to say for sure.

Miniature from "Romances about Arthur". A legless knight with a stick and a purely thrusting sword "type XV" is depicted. Manuscript 1275-1300 France. Yale University Library

Sword 1271-1299 In this form, the oldest swords are most often found. Especially if they are found in the ground or at the bottom of the river. Nevertheless, it can be seen that he has a uniformly tapering double-edged blade, with a rounded end, with a wide fuller extending almost the entire length. On one side of the blade, two shields are inlaid with brass, each of which depicts a running lion. On the other, there is a cross in a circle and another lion on a shield. Overall length: 900 mm, blade length: 720 mm. Weight: 1090 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

This miniature from the Chronicle of St. Denis "already all the knights fight with swords" type XV ", but at the same time they inflict not stabbing, but chopping blows with them! "Chronicles of St. Denis ", 1332-1350. Paris, France. British Library, London

However, since this chronicle was created for more than one year, then, most likely, we have images on the miniature of a somewhat later time, namely the very middle of the XIV century. Sword "type XV", as a rule, had a length of about 90 cm, with a blade length of 80 cm. Weight - one kilogram. The blade has a diamond shape.

Swords "Type XVII" were distinguished by their large size and weight. In the Oakeshott collection there was a sword weighing two kilograms. But a 2,5 kg sword is also known. The "master of swords" himself called them "boring", because there was nothing interesting about them - a typical sword "one and a half hands" of great length and weight.

Swords "Type XVII" in the "Great Chronicles of France" manuscript, 1400-1425. France. St. Genevieve

In this miniature we see swords "type XX" - again with handles in "one and a half hands" and a blade smoothly tapering to the point with several lobes. There are usually three of them, with the third being the longest, located between the two shorter ones. In fact, these are the last "swords of the Middle Ages", because then the Renaissance has already begun. Tristan Leonski, 1400-1425 Paris, France. National Library of France.

An interesting feature, most likely adopted by Europeans in the East, was the characteristic holding of the sword with the index finger placed on the crosshair of the sword. For example, in the oriental instructions on fencing, the Arabian horsemen were asked to first strike with the sword at the enemy's sword in order to ... chop off his index finger at the crosshair. And only then, when he dropped the sword in pain, deprive him of his head with one blow.

Finger on the crosshair. The Ancient History of Julius Caesar, 1325-1350 Naples, Italy. British Library, London

It is interesting that the Arabs for a long time cut with swords, not stabbed. Thus, the Arab knight and commander of the XNUMXth century Osama ibn Munkyz wrote in his Book of Edifications:

“I grappled with the assassin ... He held the dagger to his forearm, and I struck him so that he cut both the blade and the forearm, causing a small notch on the blade of my sword. The blacksmith in my city said he could remove it, but I told him to leave it as it is, as this is the best mark for my sword. And this mark has been preserved to this day. "

Finger on the crosshair. "Roman Missionary", 1370 Bologna, Italy. Livre Ceccano Municipal Library

Naturally, the finger on the crosshair had to be protected somehow. And that's how the "ring swords" appeared. It is believed that the finger on the bow of the crosshair allowed for better control of the sword. One way or another, it's hard to say. But we know that first one ring appeared on the crosshair, and then a second one, so that even by chance "not to hit the sky with your finger."

Sword with a ring "type XIX" 1365-1432 Royal Arsenal, Leeds

The earliest evidence of a crosshair finger ring dates back to 1340–1350. There is a diptych "Baptism and Mourning" by the masters from Siena, which depicts, however, not a sword, but a falchion, but ... all the same with a ring. And since the rings were on the falchions, then they were on the swords.

Interestingly, there are very early images of purely thrusting swords. So it is probably worth emphasizing once again that different types of medieval swords could well coexist "peacefully" in parallel, and not just replace each other sequentially.

Sword 1400-1499 End of the era of "knightly swords". A very beautiful thrusting sword with a massive disc pommel and long "mustache" crosshairs. The blade is double-edged, "diamond cut". Perhaps a river find. Dimensions: total length - 940 mm, blade length - 775 mm, weight - 1,3 kg. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Comments

[Alien From]

I'm going fishing, I think, let me look at VO ..... and here Olegovich is burning!). While I feed myself and familiarize myself with the material. Respect to the author, to all fishermen of NHNCH

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Alien From

I'm going fishing, I think, let me look at VO ..... and here Olegovich is burning!). While I feed myself and familiarize myself with the material. Respect to the author, to all fishermen of NHNCH

No tail for you, no scales for prey and a village cat for neighbors, so that you can control the catch !! !!
On the occasion of Olegovich, the work is really Fire! Four days in a row, not a day without Vyacheslav Olegovich! Amazingly unique ability to work. Yesterday I gave out from myself at work 7 pages of analytical information on the service area and "died", today again "storm the fence" in the village. Olegovich, in this regard, causes solid admiration for his efficiency! Well done!
Regards, Vlad!

[Torins]

Spinning rules! :)

[The leader of the Redskins]

Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. And the administration did not delay the continuation.
In general, the morning promises to be good!)
Which I wish to everyone.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Good morning, Leader! Looked at the counter at Olegovich - 1440 articles only under the nickname Caliber !!! The professor is strong, there is even nothing to add !!!

[kalibr]

Vladislav! And there were 40 more, but the storage time limiter removed them! And so it would be 1480 ...

[vladcub]

Q. Oh, "there were 40 more", but it will be possible to slightly shamanize the very first publications and put them out again?
Naturally, not all, but the best

[kalibr]

Quote: vladcub

Q. Oh, "there were 40 more", but it will be possible to slightly shamanize the very first publications and put them out again?
Naturally, not all, but the best

Svyatoslav! This is not beneficial to me personally. This is only "second money". And it is important for me that I could turn each material into a chapter into a book. As you yourself understand, two similar chapters are not needed in the book.

[vladcub]

I agree. The morning was successful. True, I expected V.O. to be in Armament, but this does not change matters

[Krasnodar]

The finger on the crosshair is exclusively for thrusting, a technique (or prototechnique) of modern European fencing

[Korsar4]

There is a certain logic: chop off your finger. Parts of the knights were dealt with.
And from the illustrations, perhaps, the one-legged knight makes the strongest impression.

[Catfish]

the one-legged knight makes the strongest impression.

Yes, I was impressed by the identity, like "hunting more than bondage" - just let me fight and bleed someone. And I immediately remembered another one-legged and legendary adventurer. That is to say, the continuity of generations.

Hello, Sergey!

[Korsar4]

Hi Constantine!

All morning the song is humming:

"In the fog, a strange image
Suddenly it may appear
And you, seeing him,
Don't be afraid, don't run.
Will pass harmlessly
Gloomy sleepy knight.
And the horse - and the horse,
Lame on three legs ”(c).

[Catfish]

And I saw the image in the fog like this.

[Korsar4]

"Not yet evening!" (from).

[Catfish]

"Fog, fog, we are chained to the ground with fog,
Air war workers. "(C)

[Krasnodar]

Thanks to the army dear
Suddenly there was a day off?

[Catfish]

"Thank you dear party,
That there is no vodka on the weekend
Thanks to her care
We drink vodka at work "(c)

[Krasnodar]

“Thanks to the dear party for not having vodka on the weekend! But don't be happy, Marusya, - I'll get drunk on cologne! " (from)

[Catfish]

Hello to all friends from our Lexus, just talked on the phone.

"What is life without sweet wine?
I swear by the prophet, it is better for me to be dust!
Only in drunkenness am I fully comforted,
And I will not defile the hour of death with fear. "(C)

[Richard]

Hello to all friends from our Lexus, just talked on the phone

Like he? Doesn't she think to come back?

[Catfish]

Under the old nickname, they are not allowed, tightly. And he himself is normal, working, resting.

[Krasnodar]

Hi to him!

[ee2100]

Probably inspired by the music!

[Korsar4]

“Through some thousand shaggy year
Trampled a path in destiny
Striped like a tiger, Ship Cat
I learned to dream of you ”(c).

[Catfish]

Cat poems, thank you, nice.

"And a green sunrise rises over Moscow,
An orange cat is walking across the bridge
And the valet at the subway sells
Beige oranges. "(C)

[Richard]

At the wrinkled old lady
a scientist cat on the window
eating dumplings big hot
shaking his head
he squeezed it recently
at the hostess from the saucepan
and now he sharpens it
furtively looking around
and the hostess on the couch
a distant young dream
where is the hussar brave
offered her a hand with a heart
but suddenly the wedding path
the dark-haired cat passed them
an old woman lives with him now
lonely old maid ... (c)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Richard

At the wrinkled old lady
a scientist cat on the window
eating dumplings big hot
shaking his head
he squeezed it recently
at the hostess from the saucepan
and now he sharpens it
furtively looking around

I could not resist adding! When the dumplings won an unconditional victory over the cat !!!

[vladcub]

"if they find it in the ground or at the bottom of the river," and there will be 99% of them in the Middle Ages, it somehow never occurred to anyone to keep the sword

[astra wild2]

And if he supposes that the feudal lord distinguished himself in some battle and the descendants keep in memory of him ??
Or another option: "my father served under the command of du Gueclin .. When the great constable died. He hung his sword on the wall." Such a sword can hang for decades, and then it will be removed to the storeroom.

[Richard]

rarely any of the people of this profession could live up to retirement
and hang your sword on the wall - 99% did not succeed. Svyatoslav correctly estimated the proportion of survivors

[Catfish]

It’s for sure, there was still a problem to survive at that time. Not one thing, so another ...

[Korsar4]

Dragon named Nightmare
He killed a hundred knights,
And for me he is like a mosquito -
I killed him with a click ”(c).

[Catfish]

"After all, there is no reception against scrap,
The dragon did not know about that at all.
And unknowingly
As it is, sickly, he gave an oak! "(C)

[Korsar4]

"And Koschey the Immortal is a rude animal
I put this building on guard ”(c).

[Catfish]

"There is a hut on the mountain,
And in her grandmother lives.
Oh and noxious old woman
Doesn't marry her granddaughter "(c)

[Korsar4]

“With a familiar herd
The horse walked free ”(c).

[Catfish]

"It is a pity only the voluks in the wide pole,
Old mothers and a dun horse "(c)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Astra wild2

Such a sword can hang for decades, and then it will be removed to the storeroom.

I forgot the English Author who wrote the history of European armor. So he openly complained, but the fact that in a number of noble houses elements of armor were used as props in garden interiors.

[Mik13]

Naturally, the finger on the crosshair had to be protected somehow. And that's how the "ring swords" appeared. It is believed that the finger on the bow of the crosshair allowed for better control of the sword. One way or another, it's hard to say. But we know that first one ring appeared on the crosshair, and then a second one, so that even by chance "not to hit the sky with your finger."

The finger on the crosshair is needed in order to accurately orient the plane of the blade. This is necessary for a chopping blow. In addition, a sword with a long handle, when cutting, does not give the palm rest from the side of the little finger - therefore, the cross becomes such an emphasis - it is pulled for it with the index finger.
The protection of the fingers of the weapon hand has traditionally been assigned to the armor. Plated gloves do quite well with this function. Therefore, the presence of a ring on the handle is not a sign of a change in fencing technique - it is a sign that the sword has become available to someone who, for whatever reason, does not use a plate glove.

The earliest evidence of a crosshair finger ring dates back to 1340–1350. There is a diptych "Baptism and Mourning" by the masters from Siena, which depicts, however, not a sword, but a falchion, but ... all the same with a ring. And since the rings were on the falchions, then they were on the swords.

Not certainly in that way. The Falchion is a cheap mass blade. And they armed themselves with people, as a rule, not rich. Who might not have enough funds for normal protection. And it is in the absence of plate gloves that additional protection of the hand by means of weapons becomes necessary.

Some time later, blades with developed hand protection will be massively used primarily by representatives of artillery calculations - they cannot use gloves during work, and when switching to hand-to-hand combat, if the enemy runs into the battery, there will be no time to put on additional armor.

PS - by the way, if an archer or crossbowman uses a blade as a backup weapon, then he also needs additional protection for his fingers - for the same reasons.

[Krasnodar]

So the finger can slip off during the impact - isn't it too traumatic for the user?

[Richard]

In this case, there were such swords with rings. They were called, EMNIP, "kilon"

Garda kilon

[Krasnodar]

Good morning Richard
Judging by my own amateurish opinion, by the thickness of the blade, they are intended more for the ears of work - more rush, my subjective, very unprofessional opinion

[Richard]

Hi Albert
I am also not a strong specialist. The blades here, EMNIP, - refer to the "type XIV", as well as one sword "type XV", and this is a carriage-chopping

[Krasnodar]

Which is thicker - certainly

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Mik13

In addition, a long-handled sword with a chopping blow does not give palm rest from the side of the little finger - therefore, the cross becomes such an emphasis - it is pulled for it with the index finger.

And then why do you need a long handle? If it becomes uncomfortable to use a sword with her?

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: HanTengri

And then why do you need a long handle?

Oh, here with Denis (the Engineer) we broke copies on this topic not so long ago ... I believe that a long hilt is needed in order to increase the target hitting distance, if necessary, Denis - which, rather, for the convenience of drawing the weapon from its scabbard in the confusion of hand-to-hand combat.

[Engineer]

Balance and ease of gripping.
One-and-a-half, especially the later ones, are perfectly balanced - almost like rapiers, that is, the CG is close to the handle .. You can fence fully and aim at vulnerable spots
Another very important point - you can wield a lorry with two hands.
To use such a sword conveniently.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Trilobite Master

a long hilt is needed in order to increase the target hitting distance, if necessary,

I will add one more thing - to increase the power of the blow, since the interception of the sword towards the pommel increases the distance between the hand and the center of gravity of the weapon.

Quote: Engineer

Balance and ease of gripping.

Actually, I just thought that one does not interfere with the other.
Recently we went to the forest for barbecue, we had to work hard with a cleaver - setting up an awning, chopping wood, benches, a kind of table, etc. My cleaver is modeled on a falchion - a blade of forty centimeters with the likeness of an Elmani, the handle is twenty centimeters, the balance is shifted to the point. So, I noticed a clear pattern - when you need to inflict a strong blow (cut something), the hand involuntarily intercepts the hilt closer to the pommel, and when performing more delicate work, such as sharpening the stake, the hand itself, completely automatically intercepts the cleaver closer to the base of the blade. All this was done habitually and completely unconsciously, that is, imperceptibly for me, without causing any inconvenience.

Quote: Engineer

It is convenient to use such a sword.

Yes. The extension of the handle expands the capabilities of the weapon. Universalizes.

[Engineer]

Again you are for your own)

noticed a clear pattern - when you need to deliver a strong blow (cut something), the hand involuntarily intercepts the hilt closer to the pommel,

Have you noticed that the return to the hand is increasing?
Well, again, I remind you that the handle at the pommel is much thinner. And with one-and-a-half swords, this is especially evident. It is inconvenient to hold there with the main hand. But additionally holding a lorry with your left hand in the area of ​​the apple is logical and natural and is displayed in the fechtbukh
Powerful blows with a lorry are applied with both hands, while the distance between the hands on the handle should be approximately in the palm of your hand. This is the opinion of the regons and the fencers. Do not try to play with a grip if you can grab with two hands, especially for strong hits.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Engineer

Have you noticed that the return to the hand is increasing?

Recoil appears if you strike with the last third of the blade, closer to the edge. I work mainly the second third - it's more efficient this way.

Quote: Engineer

displayed in fechtbukh

It is worth talking about the fechtbuchs separately - an interesting topic. In particular, one of the controversial issues for whom they were written. It is believed that the nobles until the XNUMXth century. they did not even know what fencing was, or they considered it the lot of the rabble, completely ignoble to fight without normal armor. Parry? No, you haven't. Noble knights exchange blows nobly: hit - received an answer. And in a mass battle, it is generally not up to the frills with all sorts of racks, steps and "elbows to the side." So you need to decide whether fencing in the period before the XNUMXth century had any relation to the war in principle.

Quote: Engineer

the distance between the hands on the handle should be approximately in the palm

I'm not sure. I can’t say anything about the opinions of our current comrades from HMB or HEMA on this issue - I don’t know, but it’s most convenient to use both hands to deliver strong blows while holding a weapon, such as an ax or a cleaver, palm to palm and as far from the center of gravity as possible. But here the conversation is precisely about the power and accuracy of the strike, and not about controllability or tight control with sharp changes in its direction. And for some reason it seems to me that it was the force and accuracy of the strike, and not the speed and surprise, that were decisive for gaining an advantage in battle. Especially if we are talking about the late Middle Ages, when, in fact, bastard swords appeared.
In general, it’s even surprising to me how differently you and I represent the mechanics of a combat clash in the Middle Ages, and in antiquity too. In the infantry, it is true, as if we had not yet grappled, but I am sure that here too we will find disagreements ...
In short, there are prospects for communication.

[Engineer]

Recoil appears if you strike with the last third of the blade, closer to the edge. I work mainly the second third - it's more efficient this way.

It was an attack against the insidious Zhukov and his "my fight for 5 centimeters")

And in a mass battle, it is generally not up to the frills with all sorts of racks, steps and "elbows to the side." So you need to decide whether fencing in the period before the XNUMXth century had any relation to the war in principle.

Fencing begins with a stance The stance is also applicable in mass battles.

I'm not sure.

For example
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/dnevnik_rolevika/udar-gneva-samyi-silnyi-udar-mechom-5d0c5539e1551900b0ad6e23

In short, there are prospects for communication

Even the old discs are not yet exhausted
Noble knights say hello and again hint that the horse dump is our everything

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Engineer

attack against the insidious Zhukov

No, this is a practical experience of cutting various pieces of wood, which, as a rule, are motionless and allow you to arrange them as conveniently. Against thin branches, when you have to cut through dense undergrowth (rarely, but it happens) and there is no opportunity to take a comfortable position, chopping the last third is just more effective. I think that if I were in the midst of a zombie apocalypse, I would also try to act with the last third of the blade - simply because I would try to keep the vile zombies away from my precious carcass.

Quote: Engineer

The stance is also applicable in mass combat.

We see massive combat in completely different ways. If it does not take place in a tight formation, when the enemy is only on one side - right in front of you, then there are two ways to try to survive - to fall and not move, hoping that yours will win without you, or, on the contrary, to be in constant motion, so, in order to have time to hit the stagnant and not grab it yourself. At least in a confined space, even if at least 2x2 m, but move. So the stand, if we mean by this a certain static position, is completely irrelevant in such a dump. Rather, a quick change of stance, reminiscent of a dance. We see some semblance of such a movement in karate kata.
In a tight formation, in general, everything is primitive - push forward, hit right in front of you in a sector of 90 degrees and, most importantly, stand on your feet while you can.
The opinion of the freak, the link to which you gave is interesting. He is, in any case, an adequate person, although not without quirks. I watched the halberdists hitting in HMB, yes, their grip is mostly wide, although not always. But if we are talking about a hypothetical gain of 5 cm, then we don't really have to talk about the palm-over-palm grip either. When the hilt is three palms long and the gain in interception can be not five, but all twenty centimeters.
And the horses in your picture are all galloping.

[Engineer]

But if we are talking about a hypothetical gain of 5 cm, then we don't really have to talk about the palm-over-palm grip either. When the hilt is three palms long and the gain in interception can be not five, but all twenty cm.

Initially, the subject of controversy was about the transition from Carolingian to Romanesque. There is a 5 cm difference in the handles. Best case scenario. To extend this hypothesis to one-and-a-half towers seems to me an even greater stretch. The lorry is a weapon for two hands. Point.

If it does not take place in a tight formation, when the enemy is only on one side - right in front of you, then there are two ways to try to survive - to fall and not move, hoping that yours will win without you, or, on the contrary, to be in constant motion, so, in order to have time to hit the stagnant and not grab it yourself. At least in a limited space, even if at least 2x2 m, but move. So the stand, if we mean by this a certain static position, is completely irrelevant in such a dump. Rather, a quick change of stance, reminiscent of a dance. We see some semblance of such a movement in karate kata.

Are you fighting on foot? If so, then also in completely different ways (surprisingly straight ). No karate dances. Either moving forward with punches, or pushing the feet into the ground and striking with all the dope with the body work to strengthen.
"Spirit of the bayonet - kill" (c)

And the horses in your picture are all galloping.

Artistic convention
Of course, you can't just dismiss something that contradicts my hypothesis. The author of these miniatures often draws horses galloping at full speed. ... One could dodge and say that the horses of the wrestling riders are not visible at all, but not my method. I wrote that my hypothesis was not formulated for the flanks. For now, I'll just note that the elements of equestrian combat with the use of daggers contradict galloping.

[Trilobite Master]

I opened the video here and stuck it. I had been looking for a long time and now I could not stop right away.

[Engineer]

A terrible dream of lovers of istfeh.
But undoubtedly fun

[Trilobite Master]

I wanted to throw a couple more videos with fights of football fans, where there are people on each side, at least a hundred ... But there is violence and swearing, I think the moderator will not approve of rolling me a ban. I, in any case, would have done so. It is also interesting and fun there, and most importantly, clearly. This is not a sport, there they hit painfully and really, as long as the opponent moves.
It is a pity that HMB does not reconstruct equestrian collisions of about a hundred people. Apparently, horses are more pitiful than people. Yes, and there, for sure, it would not have done without serious injuries.
Those smaller ones that I saw numbered only five people on each side - nothing about it - but everything there quickly enough turned into races one after another in a circle. The brakes were removed from the saddles very quickly.
About the miniatures. If it is quite possible to draw some conclusions by equipment, then by actions - with great caution. Sometimes it seems to me that the artists painted them like we did in kindergarten - here are five of our tanks, but ten are fascist. here is our - bang! - the fascist exploded, but ours still - bang! - and all the fascists exploded, and here from behind a bush more fascists are crawling out, and here are our planes, and here are German planes, and here are partisans from under the bridge, and the bridge has already been blown up ... In general, they drew the whole battle in all phases from the beginning to the end. And these could also symbolically depict something, such as pierced the left eye with a dagger - this is treason, and cut someone with a sword to the tailbone - knightly valor.
Medieval symbolism is a dark matter and should not be ruled out at all in such cases.

[Engineer]

I wanted to throw a couple more videos with fights of football fans, where there are people on each side, at least a hundred ...

What for? I am in favor of comparativism and reconstruction, but let's choose wisely, with limitations.
Fans are pushing their firstline in the back. The pushing of the opponent is precisely due to the pushing. This is a key point, provided that the opponent has not started to deduct even before the junction. I'm not sure if medieval fighters solved the problem in the same way.

Those smaller ones that I saw numbered only five people on each side - nothing about it - but everything there quickly enough turned into races one after another in a circle. The brakes were removed from the saddles very quickly.

From what I've seen, everything is very static. The departure and rapprochement is cheerful, but the exit is only at a trot or at a walk. Moreover, this turns out naturally and reflects the desire of the two sides to control the situation as much as possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UARvPdj7Co4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_W7C0Du9zk
Circuit racing is a horse battle for the banner. Another opera.

About the miniatures.

Miniatures alone do not prove anything. A selection of images from different eras with different canons already makes you think. Combined with narrative analysis, the hypothesis can be substantiated.

that the artists painted them like we did in kindergarten

The conventions of iconography were undoubtedly, but on a completely different level

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Engineer

I'm not sure if medieval fighters solved the problem in the same way.

I'm not sure either, although I fully admit that this is exactly what happened. Certainly not always - fans don't use spears. But on the other hand, their skirmishes very well show how the enemy's formation is breaking through and, most importantly, why this formation is needed at all. They are alien to conventions and plan and carry out their actions with clear academic knowledge and reason - pure practice, experience.
Putting the first ranks of the opponent, pushing the rest, it would seem, what is easier? But they have developed their own system of physical and tactical and even drill, not to mention moral. Who to put in the first row, who in the second, how many people are in the row, how to defend the flanks of the formation, how to manage the skirmish, to command, and what kind of teams are needed in such a case. There are several textbook videos. The first thing that comes to mind is the slaughter near the Ice Palace in St. Petersburg - a direct copy of the Rakovorskaya battle for the development of the script. The second - dances, in my opinion, between Bryansk and Orel, when there were two and a half times fewer of them, they toured on a foreign land, withstood three or four attacks of a numerically superior opponent and in the end counterattacked and drove him. All this is no joke and seriously - the defeated are nailed properly and no one wants to break through the hospital, this is not a "Battle of the Nations", where purely athletes perform.
It seems that from a psychological point of view, their personalities may well be comparable to what we could observe in the VIII-XIII century at the court of some prince or duke-count. Recklessness, fatalism, self-confidence, self-confidence, corporate solidarity even among opposing firms, irrepressible aggression, every second readiness to use force - to attack or defend, internal organization and cohesion, even some rudiments of discipline in the form of obedience to your leader - all this, like It seems to me that it should be characteristic of feudal squads, especially the early ones, of the Viking era.
I'm not saying that this is one-on-one, but there should be some similarities.

[Engineer]

Old age - when they explain to you on the Internet for Bolsheviks Avenue in 2005

[Trilobite Master]

"Festline" and "deduction" already led me to some suspicions. It remains to remember about the amount of cabbage soup in the mob and not hit the sneakers.

[Engineer]

You just need to know that everyone who then stood in red T-shirts happily threw a ridge and it was the most innocent thing they did.
Therefore, I have no idea what this is about and in general I have never hit a person in the face. In 2005 I played the violin, listened to my mother and studied well and well.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Engineer

In 2005 I played the violin, listened to my mother and studied well and well.

You are criminally young, it turns out! And this person says something about old age!
I moved a little in these circles at the turn of the century, but their tilt towards the ultra-right ideology, as well as the growing distance from football itself, paved the deepest abyss between us, although I continued to communicate with some even later - a year until 2007. In short, there is no dancing. went only to the drama club.
But the thought that feudal squads were formed from people of the same psychotype as modern hulls visited me even then.

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

Therefore, I have no idea what this is about and in general I have never hit a person in the face. In 2005 I played the violin, listened to my mother and studied well and well.

What, then, I was bad in childhood and youth ... Oh ...

[Trilobite Master]

The video is exactly what I was talking about - the constant movement and race around the lists in a circle. I think a real horse fight a thousand years ago fundamentally differed from this sad spectacle only in the speed, severity and sharpness of the weapon and, accordingly, the level of adrenaline in the blood of the participants. And they did not spare the horses - their own life is more expensive.

[Mik13]

Quote: HanTengri

And then why do you need a long handle? If it becomes uncomfortable to use a sword with her?

A long handle is required for the thrust.
The short handle with an emphasis on the bottom allows only chopping. Actually, chain mail armor with his modern sword was completely cut through - such blades have a characteristic rounded edge.

[Trilobite Master]

I have already given images of these swords sometime, maybe a year ago or more.

This is a sword attributed to Prince Dovmont of Pskov (it may very well be that it was so) - the last third of the XNUMXth century. It is interesting that with this form of the blade, frankly "piercing", the hilt is clearly under the grip only with one hand. The rest is a typical "Gothic" sword.

And this is a sword that belonged to the English king Edward III, the middle of the XIV century. Here, on the contrary, the shape of the blade is somehow intermediate between the Romanesque and Gothic types, and the hilt is one and a half hands ... At the same time, Dovmont's sword is probably half a century older.

[Denimax]

The ring can be not only a protection for the index finger, but also for the entire hand. There are many different techniques in fencing, therefore, with a direct thrusting blow of the enemy, an oncoming sliding along the blade is possible, moreover, the enemy's blade is used as a guide. IMHO

[Krasnodar]

This is what kind of eye should be and the reaction, so that in this situation not to miss (and not a blow with a fist, but a prick from a long cold weapon), but to get into a small ring. The chance is the same as punching the "window" on the right of a world boxing champion

[Denimax]

You don't need to get into the ring, which, by the way, is a protection so that you don't get on your hand. Boxing and fencing are different things, the distance is different and the frequency of strikes is different.

[Krasnodar]

Fencing is comparable to sports karate shotokan - I agree!

[astra wild2]

Colleagues, good afternoon.
Today deliberately climbed into the Armament, perhaps Vyacheslav Olegovich?

[Captain45]

As the Mongols say: "Sain" (good). Thanks for the article, interesting and informative.

[astra wild2]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, who is Oakeshott? You say that he was not a historian, but an ordinary collector

[kalibr]

Quote: Astra wild2

who is Oakeshott?

"Master of Swords"!

[3x3zsave]

There are amateurs who understand the issue better than many professionals. Oakshot of them.

[Undecim]

There is a diptych "Baptism and Mourning" by the masters from Siena, which depicts, however, not a sword, but a falchion, but ... all the same with a ring.

I reviewed all the less well-known representatives of the Sienese school for the specified period, but I did not find a diptych with a false chion with a finger ring.
But I found a sword with a ring, although the image is a little later - about 1377.

Galician knight Juan Fernandez de Andeiro. Illustration from Grant Cronica d'Espanya.

[astra wild2]

Colleagues, Vyacheslav Olegovich ,. I just found: "An antiques dealer discovered in Paris the combat armor of Jeanne d, Ark, which disappeared more than 500 years ago. On the armor, .... there are traces of arrow hits, which correspond to the wounds received by the Maid of Orleans ...." (" Kommersant "from 13.07.1996)

[kalibr]

Quote: Astra wild2

Colleagues, Vyacheslav Olegovich ,. I just found: "An antiques dealer discovered in Paris the combat armor of Jeanne d, Ark, which disappeared more than 500 years ago. On the armor, .... there are traces of arrow hits, which correspond to the wounds received by the Maid of Orleans ...." (" Kommersant "from 13.07.1996)

What a fine fellow you are ...

[Undecim]

I just found: "an antiques dealer discovered in Paris the combat armor of Jeanne d, Ark

This merchant in 1994 believed that he had discovered the armor of Joan of Arc. But the sensation did not happen.

[astra wild2]

Viktor Nikolaevich, but it says that some professor confirmed their authenticity.
Is it possible that Jeanne had two sets of armor? I scored in the search engine: "the armor of Jeanne d, Ark" and there were several messages on this topic

[Undecim]

The professor's confirmation was not confirmed by other professors.

[astra wild2]

And other experts, in turn, will not agree with them.
There may already be a struggle of ambitions. Even if Jeanne d, Ark left her autograph on the armor, there would still be skeptics and would say: “I don’t believe!” (Stanislavsky?)

[Undecim]

There is no struggle of ambition. In the scientific world, this issue is closed and forgotten 25 years ago after relevant research. All the hype was fanned by scribblers and an antiquarian who hoped to make money on it.

[astra wild2]

Victor Nikolaevich, good morning.
The version is plausible. Armor of that period, the damage coincides with the nature of the wounds

[vladcub]

"with a purely thrusting sword" this knight shouts: "wait, I will release your guts"

[3x3zsave]

Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Great article!
Thank you comrades! Informative comments!
And here, alas, I work like a Jew on the throne ...

[Korsar4]

“But I paint, I paint fences,
So as not to be branded as a parasite "(c).

The song began to play with new colors.

[3x3zsave]

I do not think that every boy gets the opportunity to paint the fence "(c)

[bubalik]

,,, what's the matter, - asks the owner of the shepherd, - the gate is old?
- The gate is old ... the rams are new (c)

[3x3zsave]

"Can you sew six hats out of this ram?" (FROM)

[bubalik]

Does a cow give a lot of milk?
If you don't milk it in a day, your hand will get tired (s)

[3x3zsave]

There are people who sit on the pipe, and there are people who need money. "(C)

[Korsar4]

“And to a loved one
I believed, Grand Merci "(c).

[depressant]

Sometimes everything gets boring. An evil irony comes.
The knight's head was cut off, he could not eat and died of hunger.
Or as an option: the guts were released to the knight, the dogs took them away, and so on.
Or: sitting on a pipe in winter risks men's health.

[3x3zsave]

Fate plays a man, and a man plays the trumpet "(c)

[depressant]

And in the end flies into it

[3x3zsave]

How am I better than Boris Natanovich?

[Korsar4]

“Everything is boring,
Only you are not given to become familiar ”(c).

[depressant]

Yes, - I said to my flashing spleen, - "you flicker, and no, we know this, although we don't want to admit it" (c)

[Korsar4]

Summer has not yet arrived for us. Although it was already much warmer yesterday.

[depressant]

Ek moved you! The North Pole has too high latitude. In my average, the sun is already setting in the north, it rises there, the leaves are green, the winds across the sky carry oceans of moisture, periodically dropping them down, blowing into the cracks, chilly.

[Korsar4]

Petersburg is far from Petrozavodsk, and even more so from Murmansk.

Today and yesterday it is already much warmer in the Moscow region.

[depressant]

And you call it warmer?!?
This howling like a pack of wolves is the wind that hits the windows so that they cannot be opened, these gusts of it, forcing you to close your eyes and blindly fumble around with your hands on the street in search of at least some support, so that you do not get carried away, do not break on any birch, oak, or a passer-by with the same properties, who also carries somewhere and, perhaps, on you - is this warmth?
Oh no!!! Where are you, blessed, quiet winter with eternal slush and eternal endless ice and ice, icicles threatening to fall on your head - where? Winter is like a spirit-uplifting expectation of summer and the coming summer, dropping the spirit in anticipation of winter.

[Korsar4]

Did you go out into the street?
The wind is noisy and very warm.
I wonder what will bring with it?
Maybe something weighty.

It's close to the top of summer. And there winter is just around the corner,

“We are waiting for the cold on Ivan,
And on Christmastide, summer is dreaming ”(c).

[depressant]

Yes, you, Sergei, are an expert. Well I say - the Master of the weather. I am on the street all the time, swallowing dust, even in a mask, as well as germs, viruses and often the smells of cheap perfume. There is an old plastic water bottle. I look. To cut off the top and on the head of the balloon. Creativity is not mine, Chinese.

[Korsar4]

I apologize, but why is the mask on the street?

There was little smell of Corydalis this year - cool.
And there is no escape from the bird cherry. Blooming soon.

[depressant]

Looking out the west window, I counted 8 dandelions in full bloom! And while I was counting them, the south wind almost broke the half-open window in the kitchen. I ran to close it, thinking only about whether he had scattered my not yet hemmed works on the floor. No, I didn't! Were covered by Mickey Spillane's detectives, lucky. And how I put this book on top, I don't remember. An action to ensure safety, brought to an automatism, is not marked by consciousness. And then you wander in the street, and a heavy thought haunts you: whether the door is locked or not locked.
Yes, we have spring. Summer is on your doorstep. And the complete loss of the sparrows. Where have you gone? There are no cockroaches either. The rats in the basement disappeared. Feeling of growing distress.

[Korsar4]

There are sparrows and tits. And blue tit - not so few. Blackbirds, as always, are wagtails.

And mallards and Ogarei - more than enough.

[depressant]

It means that they migrated to your land. It looks like the birds have nothing to eat. Because our people rarely go to trash cans. They accumulate garbage in bags and bags tightly tied so that there is no smell in the apartment for several days. The custom of visiting the tanks every day is already an anachronism. Here and saving the package, and reducing to the minimum value of the number of contacts with human individuals. So the seagulls were gone. You can't peck a tightly tied bag.
In the meantime, it has already been established that even a mask is useless, only a limitation of contacts. An infected person may not sneeze or cough, he simply breathes, exhaling the virus, and the virus rapidly spreads for tens of meters around the walker. Not by airborne droplets, but simply by air. We walked past this one, breathed in the contaminated air through the mask, which around it and along with it goes within a radius of several meters, and that's it. You are not sick, not because you are observing security measures, but because you did not get into the room in which the carrier was just present, and it is not ventilated.
Let there be wind! May it always be! But now, a verse. And in the silence, from somewhere in the south, huge dark clouds loomed.

[Korsar4]

There are a lot of seagulls. They are aggressive.
On the floodplains of Losiny Ostra, it is simply abundant.

Let the rooms be ventilated.

For fresh air!

[depressant]

For fresh! And long live clean water!
I don't buy it anymore. The five-liter bottle became too heavy after the illness. A year has passed since then, and everything is as before: you cannot tilt your head, you cannot turn it when it is on my pillow, the brain is immediately brought out, remaining in the same place, while the head is already in another. And the water ... You have to boil water from the tap and, after having cooled the cans with it, push them into the refrigerator. It's funny!
And outside the window - the struggle of the elements. After a little thought, the north wind rushed towards the south one. Trees, herbs are happy. The leaves, small in the morning, have noticeably increased in size. And now it rains!

[Korsar4]

It is important that you have a system. And you do what you think is important.

[depressant]

Sergei, don't flatter me!
My main efforts are aimed at making myself do at least something useful. And the useless is so nice! For example, chatting on the phone or reading a book. If you only knew how my conscience torments me! And you seem to be a reasonable person for whom the obligatory is easy to execute. I envy such people.

[Korsar4]

Reading a book is wonderful.
Nice school period.

If there is a clear regulation - do not get out.
But making a working day out of the day is a little more difficult.

But now I will tear myself away from the tablet - and to the next feat.
However, Baron Munchausen is still far away.

[depressant]

Well, well, on a good journey to a labor feat!

[Korsar4]

“- Who is the good fellow?
- I'm fine fellow!" (from).

Sometimes I think that if you work creatively for two hours a day, you can move mountains.

[depressant]

No, this is very small. When you are busy with creative work, time flies by and flies until you feel some kind of brain fatigue, it is impossible to work further. And then you start to re-read the heaped up and frown: here to correct, there ... You start to correct, improve and add. And then you read it again, and it becomes clear that with the amendments something tortured has been created, the lightness has been lost, uniting the previously created into an airy, graceful fabric. And that's when the real work begins on hanging all sorts of plaques on the fabric, those that do not make it too heavy, but without them the final meaning, for which you steamed for the preliminary two hours, was not created.

[Korsar4]

Is very similar.
Only many people find it easier to speak.
And the lack of character and education convincingly interferes with writing.

[depressant]

But for me, rather, writing is easier. I'm not an expert in talking. I am one of those who, expressing a thought aloud to some person, understands that it is a lie, or rather, does not fully reveal what I want, and my own clarifications follow to what was said. People are so annoyed, they lose my thought and because of this they cannot create their own. It's just a way of thinking like that. It is easier for many to speak, because once and for all they have developed a definite opinion on certain issues and have expressed it many times. With multiple repetitions, speech flows like a river. And I, for example, is the kind of person who constantly clarifies his opinion, that is, a person who doubts that he is right. Hence the difficulties in conversation, threatening to turn into a conflict, which I do not accept. I constantly correct my written speech here, on the forum. Even in conversation with you)))

[Korsar4]

And if it happens to write down what you said, then you can grab your head.

“Let him generously instill in you
All valor in the catalog:
Fearlessness of a lion, a deer move
The passion of the Italian, the firmness of the Swede ... ”(c).

[depressant]

The opposite is true for me. While I begin to clarify something for the interlocutor, he interrupts - he always has one truth - and he confidently translates to something else, his own, not wondering what else I have invented. And I am an agreeable and friendly person.
Where do I win?
But where the truth is always the same and it is painful to the numbness of the interlocutor. This was once in a conversation with the head of the local administration and had great positive consequences for the landscape outside my kitchen window. I just grumbled venomously then, that's all.
And also when I intervene in an extraneous conflict situation somewhere on the street. People are afraid of angry short commands and intolerant truth.
And it's all. I am not capable of more. Not a tribune )))

[Korsar4]

Conversation is always mutual. And it goes, while everyone is interested. Or there is simply time for this.

[depressant]

This is if the interlocutors:
Intelligence of the same level;
Similarity of interests;
The interlocutors feel sympathy for each other.
In real life, this is not the case. At least in mine. It remains to listen silently, to pretend to be interested, showing friendliness to the interlocutor and to his sad family problems, or naive political statements in order to reduce the territory of conflict to a vanishingly small value. So it is in any work collective. And this is not hypocrisy, this is a respect for people. My God! If I told my neighbors everything I think about them! It would be fraught with loss of health for them and for me. In our entrance, by the way, everyone behaves the same way, and that's wise. The same cannot be said about the neighboring ones. There are people running into conflicts there.
The good thing about the forum on the Internet is that you don't have to talk to the unpleasant ones. You can ignore those who don't like you. You don't have to go to topics that you will not be understood.

[Korsar4]

This is more of a choice - both sites and branches.
Only sites can change, and not always for the better.

Unfortunately, the city entrance is different from living in wooden houses.

However, you will not return to the past.

I believe that "The holiday is always with you."

[depressant]

Oh yeah! Paris, which I have never been and never will be. But once Moscow also created the feeling of a holiday. Here I agree with those who say: "In my youth, the grass was greener." For some, today's Moscow is a holiday)))

[Korsar4]

You can just remember Tsvetaeva:

“Come on foot,
With a young step
Everything is free
Semicholmia ".

And it's good to be able to see a little through time.

[depressant]

Yeah, I jump like a goat and mark
I will put my palm with a visor to my forehead, shake my head in all directions and peer through the smoky time, and there ...
The fat world government in the old-fashioned way counts the corpses of smerds in the accounts, lackeys on computers - profit, trees and roses spike in the vastness of the Earth, and a herd tramples stocks of feather grass in the steppe.

Oh, no, Sergei, I'm not a lady of the Silver Age, but fate is similar to Tsvetaeva.

[Korsar4]

At least this character successfully resists the Gray Wolf.

Even just inside the Garden Ring there is where to turn around.

Sometimes I ask myself - what do we know about the Silver Age?

[depressant]

The ladies lived exclusively with dreams of great and eternal love, which did not imply betrayal on the part of a man, but only on their side, ladies, or, slowly passing between drunken people, always without companions, alone, breathing spirits and mists, they counted the days, counted the days.

[Korsar4]

Take a little Blok, grind it up with Tsvetaeva and Akhmatova, add fragments of "Walking in agony". And do not forget to refuel with Kaverin "Before the Mirror".

[depressant]

"In front of the mirror" - all this is not close to me, instead of comparison - rejection. The poems of that time are annoying. Poems are timeless. The science of the young Land of Soviets, its energy, purposefulness - it hurts and gives off pain in the soul and wondrous, sublime memories of what was not with me. And the life twists and turns of those ladies - thank you! I had enough of my twists and turns.

[Korsar4]

Difficult to compare. Quite different layers. You understand that Bunin is a master. And Yesenin is his own.

Does Yesenin belong to the Silver Age?

I have a little idea of ​​the price of the first five-year plans.
Relatively recently recalled "Virgin Lands Upturned". There were similar problems for many industries.

And the fuel hunger touched everyone. Thoroughly.

[depressant]

And I do not like "Virgin Land Upturned" either. The Strugatskys are close to me. These are my people. Efremov. I always look to the future. But now I see only darkness in him. My future country has been killed. And it doesn't matter with what or even by whom. All that remained was the bitterness of the loss of what she had not created. And persistent wonder how you can endure all this. Professionals have worked to create a situation in which generations, realizing that this cannot be tolerated, leave and therefore tolerate, while the new ones do not know that this cannot be tolerated - they do not have an image of the desired country. Therefore, there is no real art and literature.

[Korsar4]

Remember, we talked about L. Tolstoy.
"- Which day is the most important?" (from).

Efremov probably likes “On the edge of the Oycumene”.
The "Hour of the Bull" is torn off the ground.

I wonder how much Zurbagan is desirable.

Maybe not all that bad.
Glinka and Rimsky-Korsakov are being listened to.

[depressant]

The knight, watching with surprise as the enemy's double-edged, well-sharpened sword slowly entered his heart, cried out that, they say, it is unfair, Lord, to appear before you, for I have just comprehended Zen and am ready to comprehend it further. Yes, please, the Lord grinned, comprehend. The knight woke up and died. Habit will kill Zen. Days, similar to one another, flicker, leaving no trace in the memory.