Indian observer: It makes no sense to create a PAK DA supersonic for Russia

Illustrative graphics

The Indian press is discussing the development in Russia of a promising long-range aviation complex aviation PACK YES. We are talking about a new generation strategic missile carrier, which will be able to operate, including in the network-centric version - with the control of several shock drones.

Indian observer Priyesh Mishra writes that Russia announced the determination of the future appearance of the PAK DA amid the deepening crisis in relations with the United States.

It is indicated that the bomber will have a subsonic speed. At the same time, India presented their arguments in favor of the fact that it makes no sense to create a PAK DA supersonic for the Russian Federation. The main reason why Russia will create a promising subsonic missile carrier, according to the Indian observer, is due to the fact that it will be able to carry long-range hypersonic aircraft missiles.

It is noted that "it will be enough for the aircraft, unnoticed by the enemy's radars, to approach the launch range, so that later, using hypersonic cruise missiles, hit targets on the ground or at sea."

Priyesh Mishra:

This bomber will be able to use various types of missile weapons, including hypersonic missiles with nuclear warheads. Russian experts have studied the capabilities of American radars, and therefore we can say that it will not be difficult for him to launch from a sufficient distance.

The Indian expert notes that the PAK DA “will be able to manage an entire army of shock and reconnaissance-strike drones, giving them, among other things, a command to overcome the enemy's air defense shield.

Mishra:

And if it will be up to a hundred drones, then no air defense system will definitely cope with them.

While talking about a hundred drones, of course, it is premature, but a hypothetical such a possibility may well be realized. And they pay attention to it abroad.

Comments

[xorek]

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..
PS Looks like they are getting the F-35 with a batch of the next brilliant "Raphael" .. Oh, Indians, all this will come back to haunt you ..

[Volodin]

Quote: xorek

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..

Eh, I would still finish reading the materials to the end. Well, at least until the middle))

[xorek]

Quote: Volodin

Quote: xorek

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..

Eh, I would still finish reading the materials to the end. Well, at least until the middle))

And you are following me directly Alexey ? I finished reading .. And the Indians are still horses

[Piramidon]

Quote: xorek

I finished reading ..

And where there are some "teachings" subtracted? Some speculation and gag

[kytx]

he doesn't seem to teach Russians.
but he says quite reasonable things.
you can suddenly reach the launch distance in 2 ways
speed (tu160)
stealth (pakda)

[dSK]

Supersonic requires a huge amount of fuel, only short term or payload reduction ...

[Runoway]

That's right, and the radius is significantly reduced. And what is the point in it? No one is going to break through the enemy's air defense, in the presence of long-range missiles, it is enough to quietly fly in to work on the target and leave unnoticed

[kytx]

I meant this:
speed is needed not to break through air defense, but as an opportunity to suddenly be at the launch point. no need to enter the air defense zone with long-range missiles.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: kytx

speed is needed not to break through air defense, but as an opportunity to suddenly be at the launch point

Well, "suddenly" is unlikely ... But to have the "opportunity to be at the launch point" is another matter ... and if there is also "the opportunity to escape in time after the launch ..." - it's worth a lot!

[NIKN]

There is such a thing as building up forces and means in a given sector or area. This is where speed matters. It is not for nothing that the cruising supersonic sound on promising 5th generation aircraft is set, the time is important here and not small. The strategists may not be so tight because the planning of strategists' strikes is planned and coordinated a lot earlier, but I think that when waging a real war, this need will arise, there are already a lot of factors to take into account, starting from the cost of both production and operation, and the need to have one or the other. ... I think all this has already been taken into account when issuing TTZ.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Runoway

in the presence of long-range missiles, it is enough to quietly fly in to work on the target and leave unnoticed

Given that the range of weapons is increasing all the time, soon it will not be necessary to fly anywhere at all. He took off, launched rockets right over his airfield, and sat down.

[xorek]

Quote: Piramidon

Quote: Runoway

in the presence of long-range missiles, it is enough to quietly fly in to work on the target and leave unnoticed

Given that the range of weapons is increasing all the time, soon it will not be necessary to fly anywhere at all. He took off, launched rockets right over his airfield, and sat down.

Why then take off at all? Russia is not Israel ..
Or I don't understand something ..? Well, you give a pancake an aviation strategist))))

[Piramidon]

Quote: xorek

Why then take off at all?

To see from above where to shoot

Or I don't understand something ..?

Humor.

[xorek]

Quote: Piramidon

Quote: xorek

Why then take off at all?

To see from above where to shoot

Or I don't understand something ..?

Humor.

Everything with you pyramidon is clear .. The deflection is counted, go get the shekels ..))))

[Piramidon]

Quote: xorek

go get shekels

Just to blurt out something?

[Fan-fan]

Why then take off at all?

Or I don't understand something ..?

Yes, you don’t understand. The aircraft under the START treaty is counted as one nuclear charge. Therefore, aircraft have an immediate advantage in terms of the number of available charges, compared to a ground-based launcher. And secondly, an aircraft in the air over its territory is invulnerable, and a ground installation is vulnerable, especially a stationary one.
And yet - the ability to stay in the air longer and a greater range for the strategist is much more important than his speed. In addition, a subsonic aircraft is cheaper, which means more of them can be built.

[forty-eighth]

If it was only a matter of range, then the presence of mbr would suit everyone.
There is still an approach time. That is why they invented the BRSD, SSBN and strategic bombers.
Short approach time - the enemy will not have time to reach the bunkers.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Piramidon

soon there will be no need to fly anywhere. He took off, launched rockets right over his airfield, and sat down.

Well, you sho! The airfield ... this is so commonplace! concrete runways ... permanent coordinates on the ground ... Moveton!
Better aerial vertical platforms with missiles! Something like that...

GDP-6

[Piramidon]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Better aerial vertical platforms with missiles! Something like that...

And if from a balloon?

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Piramidon

And if from a balloon?

As one hero of a certain film said: "It's troublesome ..." ... or rather, even "troublesome"!

[venik]

Quote: Piramidon

Given that the range of weapons is increasing all the time, soon it will not be necessary to fly anywhere at all. He took off, launched rockets right over his airfield, and sat down.

=========
WHY do you need an airplane then? I just launched a rocket from a mine ... Or with a launcher ...

[yehat2]

Quote from dsk

Supersonic requires a huge amount of fuel, only short term or payload reduction ...

wrong! a huge amount requires the operation of engines on afterburner.
in addition, combining the ability to move at supersonic speed and stealth coverage is quite problematic.
since Now, even for fighters, non-afterburning supersonic is a difficult topic, hence the simple conclusion - at the moment, a subsonic inconspicuous hulk is more effective.
the variable geometry option does not roll very smoothly either.
practice has shown that a heavy subsonic bomber can still be useful in any situation.

[Machito]

Supersonic will allow PAK DA to quickly reach the line of attack, break away from enemy interceptors, and increase the range of cruise missiles.

[xorek]

Quote: Bearded

Supersonic will allow PAK DA to quickly reach the line of attack, break away from enemy interceptors, and increase the range of cruise missiles.

Well, everything is fine here plus!

[Bez 310]

Quote: Bearded

Supersonic will allow PAK DA ... to increase the range of cruise missiles.

How so?

Quote: Bearded

Supersonic will allow PAK DA ... to break away from enemy interceptors

And where will these interceptors come from if
is the launch area OUTSIDE the air defense reach?

Sorry, I don’t you xorek, you have not convinced me ...

[venik]

Quote: Bearded

Supersonic will allow PAK DA to quickly reach the line of attack, break away from enemy interceptors, and increase the range of cruise missiles.

========
Well, for these tasks - there is a Tu-160! This one can break away from the F-35 without difficulty, which has already been demonstrated! And although the "White Swan" has an impressive range and in the air it can hang out for up to 15 hours, but it is too expensive to operate, and the EPR has hoo!
We need an aircraft that is more economical to operate, capable of patrolling in the air for a very long time, and which is difficult to detect!

[URAL72]

you can suddenly reach the launch distance in 2 ways
speed (tu160) "

Forget about speed. the Americans abandoned peaceful space, although earlier satellites could track the heat trail of such large targets as the Tu-160. The fast and the furious even more. Over-the-horizon radars and modern computers are much faster than the Tu-160. It's just that even from the base in Iceland, the F-15 may not get the Tu-95 at the launch line, which already exceeds 5 thousand km. Therefore, supersonic is not needed. Then why NK-32? Maybe they plan to use the PAK DA as a polar interceptor for the OBD? It would be interesting.

[kytx]

it is quite possible that the pakda will be a universal platform for interceptor drones, for example. well, that's fine :)

[yehat2]

why interceptor drones?
why are they better than a banal rocket?
aircraft arsenals of the USSR already worked in the 80s

[kytx]

the drone is reusable and theoretically can hit multiple targets and act autonomously at some stage. well, rockets can be used simpler and cheaper
Americans are doing this now with might and main, but they still have an emphasis on shock functions
although who knows

[AML]

Quote: kytx

he doesn't seem to teach Russians.
but he says quite reasonable things.
you can suddenly reach the launch distance in 2 ways
speed (tu160)
stealth (pakda)

Well, everyone clung to this stealth. Above technically advanced areas, the stealth plane will glow like a Christmas tree. Because there are a lot of spurious radiation of all kinds and it is impossible to absorb / scatter them with the help of coating and geometry. And if all signs of civilization are suppressed, then stealth is useless. I'm not trying to say that mattresses are suckers, stealth is needed, as it increases the chances, but it is not a panacea.

[iouris]

Supersonic doesn't really make sense. That is why Lozino-Lozovsky after the MiG-31 led the Spiral project, then Buran.

[venik]

Quote: iouris

Supersonic doesn't really make sense. That is why Lozino-Lozovsky after the MiG-31 led the Spiral project, then Buran.

========
Dates beguiled: from 1964 to 1974, Lozino-Lozinsky was the head of the Spiral project, in parallel, somewhere in 1970 (when flight tests had already begun), he headed work on the MiG-31, and then from 1975 he switched to the project "Buran" .....
Somewhere like this, and not vice versa, so:
"... "Something he did not connect there" - thought Stirlitz... "

[kytx]

I read (where I don’t remember) that exactly
Lozovsky was told to roll up the Spiral, here's a new topic for you Buran.
I don’t know about his participation in MiG31, to my shame

[venik]

Quote: kytx

Lozovsky was told to roll up the Spiral, here's a new topic Buran

======
Lozino-Lozinsky, not Lozovsky. In fact, there actually was a "break" of 4 years, while he was the Chief Designer of the MiG-31, although it is possible that he was also involved in the "Spiral" ...

[yehat2]

supersonic makes sense, but rather as a means of interception and reconnaissance than a means of attack.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: xorek

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..
.

Darjumdar has already zadamzhundaril everyone, a new one has appeared ... Let them, with unwashed hands and pooping on the street, at least do something like the IL-2 with their brains. And then we'll talk about how to teach Russia something.

[xorek]

Quote: Zoldat_A

Quote: xorek

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..
.

Darjumdar has already zadamzhundaril everyone, a new one has appeared ... Let them, with unwashed hands and pooping on the street, at least do something like the IL-2 with their brains. And then we'll talk about how to teach Russia something.

Thank you Igor, son of a soldier, for supporting me ..!
These dancers are already bored, then they buy. But no .. And as a rooster bites in the ass (China, Pakistan, etc.), so they will start asking Russia for help .. Then again Jimi Jimi Acha Acha .. And we'll rush to help ..

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: xorek

Those are still jimi jimi acha acha.

It's a shame that for their "acha-acha" then the Russian soldier will have to stand with his chest ... In 79-89 he already had to. It was not our war, even though we had to shoot. And with whom did you fight? Not with Afghans, but Pak and America. Afghans are "russi-friend", and paki - "rashaploho". "Rasha" is not in Pashto and not in Hindi. It's somewhere in American ...

[sergo1914]

I did not understand from the article. Did the Hindu sing or dance it?

[xorek]

Quote: sergo1914

I did not understand from the article. Did the Hindu sing or dance it?

Again, something is being frozen at the Russians! Those are still gypsies ..

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: sergo1914

I did not understand from the article. Did the Hindu sing or dance it?

Purely turkey invention - "dance a song".

[xorek]

Quote: Zoldat_A

Quote: sergo1914

I did not understand from the article. Did the Hindu sing or dance it?

Purely turkey invention - "dance a song".

They extort something from Russia, like the Gypsies ..

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: xorek

They extort something from Russia, like the Gypsies.

We have such bulk at the railway station. And in the suburbs - they call it a "gypsy village". I never gave these beggars anything, always sent them to the address ...

[Pavel57]

Implemented the concept of a platform aircraft for weapons.

[From Tomsk]

There is no plane, so there is nothing special to discuss.

[lucul]

Indian observer: It makes no sense to create a PAK DA supersonic for Russia

But why ?
Supersonic without afterburner is just that.
Launched the rockets and you go back in supersonic sound.

[Evgeny Seleznev]

On the other hand, information about PAK DA is completely absent, despite the PR of stillborn wunderwaves from the media and effective managers. So that any interpretation has a place to be. And a fairly adequate solution has been proposed. Invisibility and strike with hypersonic missiles, rational and cheaper than supersonic missiles.

[Old26]

Quote: xorek

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..

And where did you see the teachings there ??? Or your own self-esteem rolls over and the opinion of others is like a sickle in a famous place for you ???

Quote: Bearded

Supersonic will allow PAK DA to quickly reach the line of attack, break away from enemy interceptors, and increase the range of cruise missiles.

Faster to reach the line of attack - YES
Break away from enemy interceptors - YES (possible)
Increase the range of cruise missiles - definitely NO
The own combat radius of an aircraft with a subsonic flight speed is much greater than with a supersonic one. Plus the constant range of the CD - in total it turns out less

Quote: xorek

Quote: Bearded

Supersonic will allow PAK DA to quickly reach the line of attack, break away from enemy interceptors, and increase the range of cruise missiles.

Well, everything is fine here plus!

But you are a minus if you cannot understand the elementary thing that the range of action of Kr will decrease, rather than increase.

Quote: iouris

Supersonic doesn't really make sense. That is why Lozino-Lozovsky after the MiG-31 led the Spiral project, then Buran.

And this is what side to strategic bombers? What does this have to do with winged spaceships and strategic bombers ??

[kytx]

[quote = iouris] Supersonic really doesn't make sense. Because Lozino-Lozovsky after the MiG-31 led the project "Spiral", then "Buran". [/ Quote]
And this is what side to strategic bombers? And what does the winged spaceships and strategic bombers have to do with it ?? [/ quote]


The spiral and percussion functions could be performed

in general, for good, a spaceship is needed and not strategists
like the Americans have a Boeing that spent more than a year in orbit
it is also cheaper to operate and there is no risk that the strategists' bases will be destroyed before they rise into the air

[Gennady Fomkin]

Quote: xorek

Russian Indians began to teach in weapons? This is something new ..
PS Looks like they are getting the F-35 with a batch of the next brilliant "Raphael" .. Oh, Indians, all this will come back to haunt you ..

It is a pity for the Indians not to see them Rafale, scandal after scandal The huge cost of French fighters for the Indian Air Force became known, the manufacturer offered India an option in which the purchased Rafale fighters could cost the Indian treasury less. The initial contract provides for the sale of 36 French fighters for the needs of the Indian Air Force. The total cost of this purchase for India will be 7,87 billion euros. Thus, the exact price of the Rafale fighter with weapons and services for India became known. It is 218,6 million euros! Let me remind you that the Defense News publication, citing its sources, reported on the gloomy affairs of Hindustan Aeronautics, which received a license to produce 140 Su-30MKI fighters until 2020. According to the newspaper, production is too expensive - $ 70,3 million per unit, while a copy purchased in Russia costs only $ 42,15 million. Apparently, for each fighter, five carriages of cannon shells are included in the kit. And a couple more wagons of winter tires 

I was more surprised that licensed production was much more expensive than a simple purchase from us. And this is not real production yet ... What will happen if they start producing aircraft from scratch at all ...

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Gennady Fomkin

the exact price of the Rafale fighter with weapons and services for India is known. It is 218,6 million euros

Is the list and quantity of the supplied weapons also known?
Maintenance work volume?
Maybe there are two dozen Meteors for each Rafal?
And yes, it turned out that these fighters need, for example, other tankers, and that means millions and millions more.

[steelmaker]

Having such an aircraft as the Tu-160, I don't understand why we need the PAK. The price of TU-160 is $ 250 million, and the price of the PAK is generally unknown. And he must replace the TU-95. According to the information that there is, the PAK is not much better than the TU-160. It would be better if they did more TU, and then they did PAK.

[Gennady Fomkin]

Quote: Jacket in stock

Quote: Gennady Fomkin

the exact price of the Rafale fighter with weapons and services for India is known. It is 218,6 million euros

Is the list and quantity of the supplied weapons also known?
Maintenance work volume?
Maybe there are two dozen Meteors for each Rafal?
And yes, it turned out that these fighters need, for example, other tankers, and that means millions and millions more.

Presumably, a ledge in the cockpit is required so that the pilot does not take off his hat.

Place for the Shiva statuette on the torpedo.

Elongated oxygen masks to fit the beard.

What else are the options? One friend after working with the Indians gave the following remark. "I worked with different customers, with the Chinese, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, meticulous Europeans, but Indians are simply not something with something. Everything that you agreed with them and fixed in the contract, you can immediately forget."

[Alexey Stepanov]

It just touches the huge number of Indian, American, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mongolian (underline as necessary), who have never seen the object they are talking about.

[Old26]

Quote: steel maker

According to the information that there is, the PAK is not much better than the TU-160.

So these are two different cars. And it doesn't make much sense to compare. First, we do not know the performance characteristics of the PAK YES, so it doesn't make much sense to say which is better and which is worse. Secondly, the subsonic has its undoubted advantages, in contrast to the supersonic

Quote: steel maker

It would be better if they did more TU, and then they did PAK.

So they will do TU. PAK DA is a product of the Tupolev Design Bureau. And "160" will still be produced only because the car is already used up (although it is not known that it will have to be rebuilt from scratch)

[kytx]

[/ Quote]
Well, "suddenly" is unlikely ... But to have the "opportunity to be at the launch point" is another matter ... and if there is also "the opportunity to escape in time after the launch ..." - it's worth a lot! [/ quote] "suddenly" - I meant that the enemy's reaction time is not enough
"get away in time" is the first thing! :)

[Old26]

Quote: Alexey Stepanov

It just touches the huge number of Indian, American, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mongolian (underline as necessary), who have never seen the object they are talking about.

This is normal. Likewise, we have dozens of "experts" who express their opinions, sometimes having nothing to do with a particular topic. This is quite natural. Moreover, everyone has the right to speak. Incidentally, this expert from India did not say anything unusual. In fact, it makes no sense to create a new PAK DA in a supersonic version. One can argue about the aerodynamic design, but the fact that a subsonic bomber with high performance characteristics is being created to replace the TU-95 is clear to everyone. The reaction of VO writers to the statements of other people on this topic is surprising. Or the fact that he is a Hindu (American, Japanese, Chinese or someone else) imposes a ban on the ability to have an opinion ???

[dgonni]

The whole problem of creating a supersonic flying wing is in the unexplored state of transient flight modes!
And given its roll, even more so no one will bother with supersonic.

[kytx]

[quote = Gennady Fomkin] [quote = xorek] of Hindustan Aeronautics, which received a license to manufacture 140 Su-30MKI fighters until 2020. According to the newspaper, production is too expensive - $ 70,3 million per unit, while a copy purchased in Russia costs only $ 42,15 million. Apparently, for each fighter, five carriages of cannon shells are included in the kit. And a couple more wagons of winter tires 

I was more surprised that licensed production was much more expensive than a simple purchase from us. And this is not real production yet ... What will happen if they start producing aircraft from scratch at all ... [/ Quote]


What's so surprising? This is the establishment of production. but it also costs money. when the circulation goes, the cost per unit will fall. this is the risk of production (leucine or partial), in contrast to a one-time purchase (even with consumables).

[Gennady Fomkin]

Quote: kytx

COMMENTS 

In the modern Indian epic "Rafaliada" there was an extremely unexpected plot twist. Despite numerous unsuccessful experiments with attempts to produce "Arjun", "Tejas" and other military equipment, which proved the undocumented growth of Indian hands, these Himalayan Jews decided to make their own fighter. Not quite, of course, independently. Indian desires are only growing: now a foreign aircraft manufacturer, who will be given the high honor, will have to hand over almost all the documentation, set up production in India and provide modernization support in the future.

Without being afraid to make a mistake, I will predict that in the coming years we will have some amazing and funny twists!

[Gennady Fomkin]

No private defense company in India has previously produced fighters, but many have already expressed interest in participating in the program, including Tata Advanced Systems, Adani Defense, Reliance Defense, Mahindra Defense and Bharat Forge Limited.

Reliance Defense has formed a joint venture with the French company Dassault Aviation and currently manufactures components for the Rafale fighter jets. Tata Advanced Systems has teamed up with the American company Lockheed Martin, which produces the F-35. Adani Defense has announced a collaboration with the Swedish company Saab AB, which manufactures the Gripen fighter jet.

An Indian Air Force spokesman said the proposal was sent to foreign companies in June 2018. Among those responding to the request are Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault Aviation, Saab AB, Airbus Defense and Space, the Russian Aircraft Corporation and the Sukhoi company. So for the development of underdeveloped debaters and illiterate miners.

[Gennady Fomkin]

The senior official added that the request included a requirement for the transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, production and repair documentation, as well as a requirement for the ability to integrate weapons, systems, sensors and further modernization of the aircraft.

Especially India wants to get stealth technology, active radar technology, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

“The advantage of manufacturing a fighter in India is that the customer can choose the types of sensors, electronic warfare equipment, avionics and weapons in accordance with the operational requirements. Subsequently, the customer receives full logistics and modernization support without any restrictions. However, it is important to integrate the majority of these systems into the very structure of the aircraft to ensure the compatibility of the systems, "the official added.

The Indian Air Force plans to commission all 114 fighters within 12 years after the contract is signed.

We stock up on seeds.