Military Review

Why Ukraine was lost

504
Why Ukraine was lost

Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire. If Moscow regains control over Ukraine, its resources, population and access to the Black Sea, then Russia will automatically receive the funds again to turn into a powerful imperial state, spread out in Europe and Asia.


- Zbigniew Brzezinski, The Great Chessboard.

Ukraine ... How much bitterness, hatred, misunderstanding and disappointment is contained in this word.

Thirty years have passed since the collapse of the Union, and now seven years have passed since the Euromaidan. Years go by, but the intensity of passions does not decrease - Ukraine has taken pride of place as a poisoned thorn in the hearts of the inhabitants of the Federation, and this will last for many, many decades ...

Losing territories


How did it happen that we lost, perhaps, the most significant of all the post-Soviet republics? Why we are losing our territories altogether?

This is the question - and nothing else.

You can deny as much as you like that, they say, this is not our land at all, and in general, why we all need them - but this is just a delusion. A bitter, terrible delusion that at one time led to the collapse of the USSR ...

Alas, the world is so arranged that there is no place for solo players. No state can independently provide itself with an independent sales market without trading partners and stable military ties. Take China, for example, with its 1,398 billion population, monstrous industrial capacity, exorbitant ambition. But what is missing from this formidable tech giant?

Allies.

By hook or by crook, Beijing is trying to provide itself with new foreign sales markets, to find countries ready to deploy the Chinese Navy and Air Force on their territory, and is investing colossal funds in international infrastructure projects - but why? Why do they need this, you ask - maybe they want to become even richer?

Alas, the reality is much more complicated, and our country is extremely poorly adapted to it.

The era of battles tank armies have come to an end - the era of economic wars has come.

We are rapidly losing the entire post-Soviet space and are going into deep defense precisely because we did not manage to get our bearings in the situation in time. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the prevailing opinion in Russia was that we would exist perfectly without "freeloaders", having built an economy that would provide for ourselves and no one else. In the 2000s, the rhetoric changed - good relations with the West overshadowed the mind of the whole country, which is why we lost such precious time and opportunities, finally losing control of most of the satellites.


According to polls conducted by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology and the Russian Levada Center (NPO is included in the register of non-profit organizations performing the functions of a foreign agent), 48% of Ukrainians still have a good or very good attitude towards Russia. Photo source: dw.com

Yes, let's call everything by their proper names: the countries of the post-Soviet space were our satellites. It was our zone of influence, and precisely we were responsible for control over her.

Alas, this is by no means some relic of the so-called "imperial thinking" - this was the reality, because it was Russia of all the former Soviet republics that became the largest and richest country, and, most importantly, only Russia had serious foreign policy ambitions. One way or another, circumstances determined us to the role of a leader, which, unfortunately, we did not cope with.

Yes, of course, you can place all the responsibility on Ukraine itself and its leadership - but, in essence, what was it like? A young state with uncertain prospects, a complete absence of a qualified administrative apparatus (which was represented by yesterday's Soviet party bosses, who were fooled by the money and power that had fallen on them) and, frankly, an absolutely uncompetitive economy.

Did the weak and completely dependent on Russia Ukrainian state have any ambitions beyond those declared by a handful of out-of-mind radical nationalists? Not. But, unfortunately, we were enchanted at the same time both by the noisy (and, as it later turned out, not so numerous) lovers of Stepan Bandera, and by the kneeling, corrupt politicians of the "old school" who assured us of the complete devotion of their country to the ideals of an alliance with the Federation ...

Colony ambitions


What actually put forward the Ukrainian society as the main idea of ​​the Maidans? Russophobia? Fascism? Desire to Become "American Beds"? Of course, there were similar proposals. However, I repeat, we were fascinated by the radicals - a handful of people seemed to set the tone for absolutely the entire policy of the once fraternal state. True, for some reason in Russia the modest desires and demands of the bulk of the "rebels", who declared them during the ill-fated Orange Revolution, remained completely unnoticed in Russia - and yet they matched our own needs extremely well ...

Alas, all of Ukraine's unpretentious political ambitions boiled down to a desire to become ... in essence, a colony. She, in fact, became her - just not ours. In the modern sense, a "colony" is an economically and technologically dependent satellite that provides the metropolis with a stable and stable sales market, coupled with political loyalty in exchange for a standard of living unattainable in case of independent existence. No annexation and military incursions, forceful maintenance of order and infusion of funds - on the contrary, an extremely profitable system in which the dependent independently controls his territory, ensures economic development and enriches the overlord.

The main demand of the Ukrainian society was, no matter how ridiculous it may sound, precisely the desire to become a colony. Why Russia missed this moment, why we were driven into the position of the defenders on our own territory - the question is certainly interesting, and it requires a separate material.

In short, however, we can answer now - "soft power".

The power, which for some reason we do not have.


Turkish films and TV series are watched by over 600 million people in 152 countries. "Soft power" is there. Photo source: peopletalk.ru

As mentioned above, interstate conflicts have reached a new level - the export of cultural patterns, lifestyles, consumer technologies, the media is now of great, if not central importance ... We did not just lose the confrontation on these fronts - we did not even notice it and did not realized. For most Russians, such things still sound wild, incomprehensible and even stupid - unfortunately, the fact that conventional singing and dancing boys from South Korea can have many times greater influence on a particular country, or even to the world than our motorized rifle brigades.

Strengthen the comprehensive strength of China's culture. Promote Chinese culture, better go out into the world, enhance its international influence.

- from the resolution of the IV Plenum of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China of the 16th convocation of September 2004.

Perhaps, relations between Turkey and Azerbaijan can be considered as an ideal example of "soft power" in the post-Soviet space. Against the background of the rather vague policy of Russia in the Transcaucasus (flirting with the sometimes anti-Russian-minded Armenia, coupled with a disdainful attitude towards Azerbaijan, which was a regular client of our defense industry with "real" money), Ankara was able to become not just an ally, but also a "big brother" of Baku.

In fact, at the moment Azerbaijan occupies the position of not just a union, but a vassal (in the best sense of the word) country - Ankara has received a new sales market (especially armory products) and a reliable foothold in the Caucasus. Turkish culture is gently and unobtrusively exported to create stable "brotherly ties" between the two states, which are henceforth linked not only by military or political, but also by spiritual ties. However, this process has been successfully launched in Central and Central Asia ... In the countries that were ours less than half a century ago.

Turkey, which is inferior to us in many indicators, is energetically and successfully promoting its status of the unifier of the Turkic lands, justified by the new historical a concept within the framework of which Ankara assigns all significant epochs and attractive historical images that have at least some distant relation to the Turks. Scythian nomads, Batu, Ataturk ...

They do not care about the problem of appropriating someone else's historical heritage - here and now they are creating a zone of influence, using all available methods and means.

Retreating on our own land


Ukraine ... A country with a kindred mentality for us. The people who speak the same language with us. The state, to this day, is closely connected with the Russian economy.

Interestingly, we had much more prerequisites and means for the development of successful vassal relations with her than Turkey and Azerbaijan ... Why, in more than 20 years, Russia has not been able to create stable levers of influence in a financially dependent, linguistically identical way of life, a religiously and historically close country?

Why are we so blind to promoting the influence of our state, not only by giving our, Russian money to local presidents-tsars, and not the broad masses?

We give carte blanche to individual clans and completely stop working, in fact, with ordinary people, whereas this is precisely the notorious "soft power" - and in our policy abroad we must rely primarily on them, on new faces, of which subsequently, stable allied ties are formed, and not primitive beneficiaries in the form of another Yanukovych or Bashar Assad.


Less than 10 years ago, a similar picture was commonplace. But now the soldiers of our former allies are marching along with the soldiers of our enemies ... Photo source: ukraina.ru

We are still absorbed in happy reports about the return of Crimea and sincerely believe that the deaths of Russian children in Donbas is a fair price for preventing Ukraine from joining NATO. We believe that two successful tactical moves neutralized our strategic defeat.

Unfortunately no. We have lost an entire country solely through our own fault. And we are trying to hide this fact from our own eyes.

Thirty years ago we said that Coca-Cola and jeans defeated the Soviet Union. Ten years later - that Hollywood settled in the heads of our children. Now we again humbly bow our heads - but now before the Turkish TV series, "Bayraktars" and the mysterious spirit of the "Eastern fairy tale".

How long will we retreat on our own land, abundantly watered with the blood of our ancestors, losing in the war of words and public opinion?
Author:
Photos used:
peopletalk.ru dw.com bbc.com ukraina.ru
504 comments
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  1. Comrade
    Comrade April 11 2021 04: 39
    +82
    Did the weak and completely dependent on Russia Ukrainian state have any ambitions beyond those declared by a handful of out-of-mind radical nationalists? No.

    The author either attended a kindergarten at that time, or did not live in Ukraine at that time.
    In fact, the ambitions were good. The Soviet Union was still alive, and there were already plenty of leaflets on the posts with statistics and comments. This is how much we produce / mine - from wheat to coal, from steel to diesel locomotives. And here's how much of the same is produced / mined in Germany.
    It turned out that Ukraine did not differ much from the FRG.
    Below is the question - why do we produce no less or even more Germans, but we live poorly?
    Immediately the answer is that Moscow takes almost everything from us!
    What needs to be done to still live like the Germans?
    And to leave the Union, then no one will take anything from us, and we will live like the Germans or the French.
    Such sentiments were very widespread, which is why the inhabitants of the Ukrainian SSR rushed to vote for secession from the USSR.

    At that time, the central union newspapers wrote that a huge amount of various raw materials and, most importantly, energy carriers - gas and oil - were supplied from Russia to Ukraine for free, but then in Ukraine they began to shout that this was all "Kremlin propaganda".

    That was it main ambition Ukraine, pasted on all the pillars and trees - to heal no worse than the Germans due to the fact that we will stop giving our products to other republics - read, Russia. Like, we will not give free for Russian, and sell for the currency of the same Europeans, a fabulous life will immediately come.
    And I gradually believed in it most.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 11 2021 05: 09
      +71
      We give carte blanche to individual clans and completely stop working
      We are, we are, we are! The author seriously considers us: me, the commentators and readers of VO, just Russian citizens, responsible for the failures in foreign policy? Why doesn't it write directly that it is the government of the Russian Federation that gives carte blanche to murky clans, merges work with the population of Ukraine and not only, and so on ...
      1. apro
        apro April 11 2021 05: 36
        -19%
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The author seriously considers us: me, the commentators and readers of VO, just Russian citizens, responsible for the failures in foreign policy?

        If you are a citizen, then yes, you are responsible for the activities of the government, and if you are a layman, then yes, there are no questions
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U April 11 2021 05: 45
          +37
          Quote: apro
          If you are a citizen, then yes, responsible
          And what opportunities does citizenship give to influence the actions of the government?
          1. apro
            apro April 11 2021 05: 53
            -4
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And what opportunities does citizenship give to influence the actions of the government?

            To elect and be elected; to express one's point of view in the media; to demand that the executive branch report on its activities.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U April 11 2021 05: 58
              +23
              Quote: apro
              To elect and be elected; to express one's point of view in the media; to demand that the executive branch report on its activities.
              And now show what a "man in the street" cannot do of this. Only without demagoguery.
              1. apro
                apro April 11 2021 06: 03
                -10%
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And now show what a "man in the street" cannot do of this.

                The average man has no civic position.
                1. Fan-fan
                  Fan-fan April 11 2021 12: 44
                  +16
                  Oleg, do you think the people are to blame for everything again? Is it really the people who are carrying out foreign policy? And what about domestic politics? Do you think the poor officials and rulers are trying their best, and we put a stick in their wheels? Or maybe they're not trying hard? And in my opinion they do nothing for the country at all.
                  1. Vladimir Mashkov
                    Vladimir Mashkov April 11 2021 13: 20
                    +9
                    VERY correct and the exact article! I totally agree with the author!

                    The only controversial thought - "Ukraine took the place of honor of the poisoned thorn in the hearts of the inhabitants of the Federation, and this will last for many, many decades ..." VERY I hope the author is wrong about the deadline!
                    1. Svarog
                      Svarog April 11 2021 14: 47
                      +32
                      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                      VERY correct and accurate article! I totally agree with the author!

                      The only controversial thought - "Ukraine has taken the honorable place of a poisoned thorn in the hearts of the inhabitants of the Federation, and this will last for many, many decades ..." I really hope that the author is mistaken about the timing!

                      I very rarely agree with your assessment, but in this case, definitely! The article is relevant and very important. And on the account of the term, the author is not mistaken .. so that Ukraine would become again with Russia, it is necessary that Russia would cease to be a colony of the West .. and considering that the Gauleiters decided to rule for life, we will not soon see serious changes.
                      1. Vladimir Mashkov
                        Vladimir Mashkov April 11 2021 14: 56
                        -3
                        Namesake, we will be judged in the near future. I guess by the end of summer all will clear up. But maybe even earlier.
                      2. clerk
                        clerk April 11 2021 16: 41
                        +8
                        ... And on the account of the term, the author is not mistaken .. so that Ukraine would become again with Russia, it is necessary that Russia would cease to be a colony of the West .. and considering that the Gauleiters decided to rule for life, we will not soon see serious changes.
                        Again, you are replacing the essence with duty politicking. The form of power and personalities are tertiary. The bottom line is that Ukraine should never be with Russia again. Neither flush, nor below, nor above, nor from the side, nor from the front, nor from the back. There shouldn't be any more Ukraine. Only Little Russia should remain within Russia. Therefore, all the rantings that they say Russia has lost Ukraine and how to get it back is just idle talk. If Russia continues to gain strength, the territories and population will return on their own, and the concept of the Ukrainian state will break up like a mirage. And if it begins to weaken, mired in the next coups and internal showdowns, then no promises and persuasions will help.
                      3. vlad106
                        vlad106 April 14 2021 18: 13
                        +2
                        Quote: clerk

                        ... The bottom line is that Ukraine should never again be with Russia. Neither flush, nor below, nor above, nor from the side, nor from the front, nor from the back. There shouldn't be any more Ukraine. Only Little Russia should remain as part of Russia. Therefore, all the rantings that they say Russia has lost Ukraine and how to get it back is just idle talk. If Russia continues to gain strength, the territories and population will return on their own, and the concept of the Ukrainian state will break up like a mirage. And if it starts to weaken, mired in yet another coups and internal squabbles, then no promises and persuasions will help ... "

                        "Why Ukraine Was Lost"

                        "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" ""

                        Right! Enough of any "Ukrainians".
                        Russian lands, our people, speak our language. And that Hungarian-Romanian-Polish rabble who uses the invented MOV, let them return to their origins
                    2. Valentin Tveryakov
                      Valentin Tveryakov April 24 2021 10: 22
                      +1
                      The countries are ruled not by the people, but by the group that has come to power, and this group is going all hard just to stay in power and at the same time, so as not to perish from competitors. Reaching the country is a myth, and if you need a visa-free regime, not to disperse the satisfied people around the world in search, happiness ,,! Unfortunately, the most powerful figure in the present. is the United States and all the coup d'état governments are crawling to the feet of this figure, and if we had an alcoholic in power, then we would have been there for a long time. it is very difficult to remain an independent figure, the Sotelite alliance has merged into NATO, and this is a serious force, and most importantly, if you leave this position, then the Motherland will end!
                  2. Nemchinov Vl
                    Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 15: 33
                    +10
                    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                    VERY correct and accurate article!
                    sorry namesake, but now I object, - NOT REALLY !!!
                    Some theses are at least controversial (in my opinion), and cannot but cause confusion ... ?!
                    For instance, -
                    Yes, let's call everything by their proper names: the countries of the post-Soviet space were our satellites... This was our zone of influence, and it was we who were responsible for controlling it.
                    Republic of the Soviet Union (articles named by the author- countries (?!) that controversial at least until its collapse !!!), he calls - "satellites" ?!?!... It's like in general ?! belay part of citizens ONE country, for him, are for one of the Union republics with the same citizenship (in which the same mass of nationalities: Tatars, Bashkirs, Udmurts ... etc., but I hope that you understand me !!!), just - SATELITS, not "fellow citizens" ? !! request
                    If he means, already the period after the secession (collapse of the USSR), then it is all the more interesting, but how does he imagine - "... we were responsible for controlling her", from the side of no longer ruling (temporarily seizing power of the elites), namely ordinary citizens separated already in fact minimum artificially created borders (and the same media) ... ? !! winked request
                    There already "everyone processed their electorate" how could ... yes
                    What is interesting, prerequisites and means for the development of successful vassal relations with her with us was much more than that of Turkey and Azerbaijan ...
                    - dear author, it is the development from the point of view of - "VASSAL" economic relations between states, and not one-end in achieving their ultimate goals (products that can become interesting and competitive in the world market), this is the way to DISCONNECTION, and not COMBINING Slavic states !!! yes And such projects (development of their) such as: "Mriya", "Buran", "Antonov", or "Motor Sich coupled with Russian Helicopters" .... etc. (in industrial examples. оespecially bright, will be in the fleet and shipbuilding !!!) winked wink
                    1. Vladimir Mashkov
                      Vladimir Mashkov April 11 2021 16: 03
                      +2
                      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                      Some theses are at least controversial (in my opinion)

                      Dear Vladimir! Sorry, but I disagree with you. After all, the author (as I understand it) means by "satellites" (limitrophes), possible vassals the former Soviet republics, namely after collapse of the USSR. What - in my opinion - today corresponds to - alas! - harsh reality.

                      I (like you, probably) would like to be fellow citizens in the greater Russia. Will it come true ???
                    2. Nemchinov Vl
                      Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 16: 36
                      -3
                      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                      After all, the author (as I understand it) means by "satellites" (limitrophes), possible vassals of the former Soviet republics after the collapse of the USSR.
                      litter. You are not careful. Vassal-satellite relationships cannot be strong at all. And between the Slavic (proud) nationalities - even in the short term, and Especially !! what yes
                      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                      Dear Vladimir! Sorry, but I disagree with you.
                      everyone has the right to YOUR point of view (!). wink
                      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                      I (like you, probably) would like to be fellow citizens. Will it come true ???
                      And you do not stop believing - and it WILL BE! ... yes you never know we still have incarnations ... wink lol
              2. Maki Avellevich
                Maki Avellevich April 12 2021 06: 39
                0
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                Oleg, do you think the people are to blame for everything again? Is it really the people who are carrying out foreign policy? And what about domestic politics?

                you divide into People and Rulers.
                we must not forget that rulers are a function of the people. that is, from the people, its elite and rulers grow up.
                like someone said. if you plant a peach seed, it will grow out of it ... a peach.
                when the character of a people changes, so does its elite. it's not a matter of which party will be elected.
                peach peach.
              3. Ka-52
                Ka-52 April 12 2021 11: 17
                -1
                do you think the people are to blame for everything again? Is it really the people who are carrying out foreign policy? And what about domestic politics?

                again, lovers to speak on behalf of the people. And who are the "people"? What is his national or social identity?
                People - a historical community of people

                the word is synonymous with the concept of "nation"

                The use of the word "people" in the meaning of a larger, non-ethnic concept of nation is typical for politicians to designate the entire population of a state, regardless of its ethnicity. For example, the text of the Russian constitution begins with the words:

                “We, the multinational people of the Russian Federation, united by a common destiny on our land [4], ...

                this is what Wikipedia gives. What do you mean by this concept? Well, a Russian doctor, a Bashkir locksmith and a Mordvin turner are people. And what about the Russian housing and communal services worker? Is an employee of a regional or regional administration a Dagestani or a Shorets? Is the riot police officer a Tatar? And the deputy of the Legislative Assembly of the Buryats? On what basis do you divide who is the people and who is not the people? As in 1917, on the basis of revolutionary consciousness? For both fiery and stupid speeches from an armored car, it will do. But for an objective understanding - hardly
                1. ds205
                  ds205 April 13 2021 16: 01
                  +1
                  Quote: Ka-52
                  this is what Wikipedia gives. What do you mean by this concept? Well, a Russian doctor, a Bashkir locksmith and a Mordvin turner are people. And what about the Russian housing and communal services worker? Is an employee of a regional or regional administration a Dagestani or a Shorets? Is the riot police officer a Tatar? And the deputy of the Legislative Assembly of the Buryats? On what basis do you divide who is the people and who is not the people? As in 1917, on the basis of revolutionary consciousness? For both fiery and stupid speeches from an armored car, it will do. But for an objective understanding - hardly

                  Good afternoon, 2 camps formed here. I cannot help but join the camp where the people are declared as a subject of political activity and responsible, incl. personal. I 100% support the idea that any representative of the government is a member of society whom the people asked to lead. People do not like it - can live in a cave of control and light, need can always be met at the entrance to the cave, his business is personal.

                  All these theses about “how should I conduct my foreign policy”, “I can't see beyond my nose” - this is the essence of the manipulation of terms, and the responsibility is the same as for cleaning your bathroom and cleanliness in the entrance. Practice shows that all these problems have not been solved, if, conditionally: "the whole world is in one continuous problems, which do not need to be tackled in view of their complexity."

                  In social science, in the section "civil society" and "civic position" there is even a term for such a deliberate line of behavior of a part of society's members in the form of a widespread withdrawal of responsibility - marginal behavior.
            2. Svarog
              Svarog April 11 2021 14: 44
              +14
              Quote: apro
              The average man has no civic position.

              The position that is .. only they do not want to hear it and see .. the citizen himself was put in a position ..
              1. apro
                apro April 11 2021 15: 03
                -5
                Quote: Svarog
                Position that is ..

                I do not observe the position. There are national boujoise cries of liberal dictatorial tones, but no one is in a hurry to defend. It is necessary to defend the position with God’s help. It is necessary to defend the position and not talk about it.
                1. Alexey Polyakh
                  Alexey Polyakh April 14 2021 17: 24
                  0
                  Quote: apro
                  position must be defended


                  how about a land plot for a WISHING Muscovite in Moscow (as close as possible to the Moscow Ring Road (why else?)), WITHOUT COMMUNICATIONS (!!!). For the construction of a residential building and gardening facilities ??? What needs to be defended here ???
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 April 11 2021 07: 00
          +22
          Quote: apro
          To choose and be chosen

          I thought there were no longer those who believed in the honesty of the electoral system and that with the help of it one could really choose a candidate not imposed on us by the authorities.

          We have already gone through it more than once. Even if you do not take into account the uncontested and irreplaceable, but look at his chair holder - even the Zaputins hate the LADY! But tell me how you chose this weak-willed and liberal figure whose rating is below the floor?

          And how was the colonel, unknown to anyone, chosen? For what merits? And where did Lukashenka get 80% of those who voted immediately after the elections? Remember, our drunkard has already been chosen twice! The first time they did not understand that it was he who destroyed the USSR!

          I think if tomorrow they say to vote for Ksyusha Sobchak, I will not be surprised at all if she is also elected. And our ubiquitous cheers patriots and agitators will foaming at the mouth to prove that there is simply no other alternative.
          1. apro
            apro April 11 2021 07: 03
            -1
            Quote: Stas157
            I thought there are no longer those who believe in the integrity of the electoral system

            It is not a question of faith, but of civic stance, the ability to defend one's interests, the ability to interact in civil society, to collective action.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 April 11 2021 07: 27
              +12
              Quote: apro
              It is not a matter of faith, but of citizenship, the ability to defend one's interests, the ability to interact in civil society, to collective action.

              What are you pushing to the barricades? Because all other methods have been tested more than once and have shown complete uselessness.
              1. apro
                apro April 11 2021 07: 41
                -1
                Quote: Stas157
                What are you pushing to the barricades?

                They push the foolish ones, and the citizen consciously goes to defend his rights, sometimes at the risk of his life.
            2. Svarog
              Svarog April 11 2021 14: 48
              +14
              Quote: apro
              Quote: Stas157
              I thought there are no longer those who believe in the integrity of the electoral system

              It is not a question of faith, but of civic stance, the ability to defend one's interests, the ability to interact in civil society, to collective action.

              Here I completely agree with you .. we have a problem with defending our interests ..
            3. MrFox
              MrFox April 13 2021 15: 27
              0
              Good citizen, have you ever worked as an instructor in the district party committee? Tell about a united and indestructible bloc of communists and non-party people
          2. Overlock
            Overlock April 11 2021 11: 34
            +15
            Quote: Stas157
            I thought there were no longer those who believed in the honesty of the electoral system and that with the help of it one could really choose a candidate not imposed on us by the authorities.

            It was like this before, but not now
          3. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 08
            -4
            Quote: Stas157
            Remember, our drunkard has already been chosen twice! The first time they did not understand that it was he who destroyed the USSR!

            Superman. Neither give nor take. Of course, I understand that it is easier this way than to admit that the cumulative influence of objective reasons led to the destruction of the country. But maybe it's time to get rid of this dull infantilism somehow after 30 years?
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 39
              +4
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              the cumulative influence of objective reasons.

              Yeah, remember the first three heroes of Russia.
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 42
                +4
                Yeltsin, Kravchuk and Shushkevich? laughing
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 44
                  +6
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  Yeltsin, Kravchuk and Shushkevich?

                  No, those that fell under the goose. One unemployed, the other
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 49
                  +5
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  Yeltsin, Kravchuk and Shushkevich?

                  No, those clever people who fell under the goose. One is a co-operator, the other is an unemployed drunk, the third I don't even remember who, like a poet.
                  1. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 14: 07
                    +2
                    These people are just an example of how dear human stupidity sometimes costs.
                3. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ April 11 2021 18: 59
                  +2
                  Yeah, remember the first three heroes of Russia.

                  These are those who in August 1991 fought against the GKChP armored vehicles. In fact, they prevented the armored vehicles from leaving Moscow, but did not suspect about it.
            2. Stas157
              Stas157 April 11 2021 16: 13
              +4
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Of course, I understand that it's easier this way than to admit what led to the destruction of the country cumulative effect of objective causes.

              Are you trying to blur the blame as broadly as possible and demagogy with a clever look? Good at it! I prefer to think that every problem has name and surnameI. Stalin spoke about this already.
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 16: 17
                +1
                Quote: Stas157
                Trying to blur the blame as wide as possible?

                Not. I'm just trying to be as objective as possible on this issue. Like any adequate obscurantist.
                1. Stas157
                  Stas157 April 11 2021 16: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  Like everyone adequate gloomist.

                  Why is the "adequate Marxist" trying to justify the destroyer of socialism EBN? There is no smell of adequacy here. Marxist! Did you read Marx or are you clumsy show-offs?
                  1. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 16: 30
                    +2
                    Where am I justifying it? You first learn to read carefully and understand what you read before presenting something to me. Yeltsin, he came alone and destroyed everything? There you blurted out something about Stalin pretentiously. Can you remind me what he said about the role of personality in the history of the smart guy?
                  2. Essex62
                    Essex62 April 11 2021 18: 50
                    +3
                    As a Bolshevik to a Marxist, I will say that your assessment of the objectivity of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR is objective. The objects that committed this atrocity against the whole of humanity, of course, were an under-suppressed counter. Actually, they stopped pressing it in the last 15 years of the existence of the USSR. Regression and departure from the fundamental principles of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Well, that's all. This objectivity - "for the eyes" was enough. As a result, society disintegrated and did not want and could not resist the hucksters.
                    It is difficult for most of those involved to realize that it is they, and not the counter-reborn EBN, he is an enemy by definition, his guilt does not require proof, and are to blame for the collapse of the world's first socialist state, a unique phenomenon in the history of mankind.
                  3. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 19: 01
                    +2
                    It’s not only and not so much about the office. The main thing is the economy.
                  4. Essex62
                    Essex62 April 11 2021 19: 07
                    +6
                    But in this I disagree. Mattress analysts admitted that the USSR in 88 was at the peak of economic power, then sabotage began, it is not clear how a recruited traitor climbed onto the Kremlin stool and, with the help of administrative resources and physical liquidations, brought the country to economic collapse. Only a departure from real Marxism is the only and main factor.
                  5. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 19: 19
                    +2
                    Quote: Essex62
                    I agree. Mattress analysts admitted that the USSR in 88 was at the peak of economic power

                    But the bureaucratic planned economy multiplied this power by zero.
                    Quote: Essex62
                    then sabotage went on, it is not clear how a recruited traitor who had climbed onto the Kremlin stool and with the help of administrative resources and physical liquidations brought the country to economic collapse.

                    You don't have to build conspiracy theories. Everything is quite understandable for itself with prosaic reasons. Otherwise, we will never build communism like that, if we explain any failure by conspiracies of some evil forces.
                  6. Maki Avellevich
                    Maki Avellevich April 13 2021 06: 43
                    -2
                    Quote: Essex62
                    But in this I disagree. Mattress analysts admitted that the USSR in 88 was at the peak of economic power, then sabotage began, it is not clear how a recruited traitor climbed onto the Kremlin stool and, with the help of administrative resources and physical liquidations, brought the country to economic collapse. Only a departure from real Marxism is the only and main factor.

                    strangely you do it. the country was "at the peak of economic power" and then a couple of three hired saboteurs destroyed it.
                    it doesn’t happen. strong empires / civilizations do not collapse just because enemies have paid corrupt politicians and administrators.
                    or a civilization at its peak or its leaders can be bought and forced to destroy your people and country.

                    these two stages cannot coexist.
                  7. Essex62
                    Essex62 April 13 2021 09: 37
                    +2
                    As much as they can. You will find a lot of examples in history, and not just a couple of three hirelings, much more, in all key posts, through the efforts of the formally emperor of the Union, in fact, his worst enemy, and they are only a catalyst, a trigger.
                    Civilization is not homogeneous. There were communists, and there were opportunists, reincarnates, loud-mouthed Makarevichs, Tsoi and hucksters of all stripes.
                    In a utilitarian way, remove the police as a tool and they will begin to undress and cut you everywhere.
                    The defeat is not in the field of economics, in the field of ideology. Spurred by traitors, the battle for the minds was lost. The socialist planned economy is not subject to crises, at all. It has no task of extracting margin.
                  8. Maki Avellevich
                    Maki Avellevich April 13 2021 10: 09
                    0
                    Quote: Essex62
                    The socialist planned economy is not subject to crises, at all.

                    read what you have written out loud and listen.

                    this statement has no basis.
                    even on posters this has not been written yet.
                  9. Essex62
                    Essex62 April 14 2021 09: 09
                    0
                    And what does the poster have to do with it? Show me the opposite, when the USSR had a crisis in the economy, not provoked by elementary sabotage, in order to destroy it? Even with the idiot Khrushchev, everything worked like a clock. Naturally, I do not consider the periods before the Second World War and the time thereof.
        3. Aviator_
          Aviator_ April 11 2021 19: 03
          +3
          Actually, they stopped pressing it in the last 15 years of the existence of the USSR.
          Actually, they stopped pressing her since 1953, that is, 38 years before 1991.
        4. Essex62
          Essex62 April 13 2021 09: 23
          0
          Well, I do not. Even in the 70s, there was still a rejection of huckster psychology. Not enough, though. The number of individuals who lived according to the principle - if you want to live, be able to turn around "gradually accumulated to the critical mass, the authorities began to look at it" through their fingers. "" The great community of the Soviet people, "pearls Suslov, instead of" intensification of the class struggle in a socialist state "- Stalin And, of course, it burst in. The preservation of the power of the proletariat is possible only under conditions of class struggle, the eradication and prevention of the ideology of profit.
  • Alexey Polyakh
    Alexey Polyakh April 14 2021 17: 35
    0
    he does not believe in the integrity of the elections.
    he knows it.
    for this, he proposes to "be elected" in order to drag state employees into this quagmire.
    but for themselves they will note that there are fewer dissatisfied people.
    it is possible to raise prices further.
    and consider everyone as philistines so as not to do anything.
    manage, IN GENERAL. not people, but RULES !!!
  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 15: 08
    +8
    Quote: apro
    To choose and be chosen
    sw. Oleg (!)... formally, of course you are right ... BUT ... !! You have the sums necessary at least to register in the pre-election race (as a candidate), not to mention funding opportunities ALL election campaign ... ?! request Well, if, your honest answer sounds like most citizens, - as "NO" ... Then forget even about formal equality in rights, - It does not exist, even in principle !!!
    Quote: apro
    ... require the executive to report on activities.
    demand (!)... But most likely, the most significant media in the country, they just won't notice (will ignore) Your requirements. They will show "achievement of a group of persons"in power, at THIS specific TIME !! lol
    For this, uv. Vladimir_2U (Vladimir), absolutely right, in his sarcastic answer -
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And what opportunities does citizenship give to influence the actions of the government?
    yes almost completely winked
    to your question -
    Quote: apro
    If you are a citizen, then yes, you are responsible for the activities of the government, and if you are a layman, then yes, there are no questions
    .
    Return power to normal by using (democratic procedures) suffrage, - "Oh, how difficult it is" !!! Especially after the coup, in the same Ukraine !!! yes just take my word for it !!! wink
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    show what a "man in the street" cannot do of this. Only without demagoguery
    - how can you disagree ?! request
    Quote: apro
    It's nothing.the man in the street has no civic position.
    - that is, an inhabitant, - not a citizen ?! You deprived him and his citizenship at once ? !! lol
    1. apro
      apro April 11 2021 15: 22
      -8
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      formally you are of course right

      if you treat everything formally, then capitalism is the best democracy in the world.
      To have a civilian position is to unite the bearers of this position into the organization once. It is two. Three to put forward collective demands. All ... what is difficult? Or is it impossible to unite?
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 17: 02
        +3
        Quote: apro
        if you treat everything formally, then capitalism is the best democracy in the world.
        Oleg, I ask you to forgive me, but do not talk nonsense (!)... Democracy does not exist at all (even in principle) !!! what yes This is ephemeria yes ... much like, - https://youtu.be/4Dul8fTtbF8 wink
        Quote: apro
        To have a civilian position is to unite the bearers of this position in the organization two to three to put forward collective demands. All ... what is difficult?
        about reactions to your requirements I have already described above (!)... All the rest, in principle effective, but as a rule not "here and now", but in SIGNIFICANTLY more distant perspective . winked
        After the first coup (in 2004), we "in such a gentle way" , only by 2008 they re-elected their parliament, and only by the end of 2011, the country began to stabilize again, although not much. yes
        The second coup (2014) was even more devastating ... For seven years now ... try to drive the post-maidian shape-shifters under the bins (public opinion (!), which is against them), in full opposition to the authorities (!)... but he came to power as - "I am your verdict !!" .... and again fell for (!)... Since at that moment everyone was VERY tired of Poroshenko, and that any alternative (yes with such expressions !!), seemed heavenly manna (!)... I didn't want blood (!). yes I wanted it through the electoral process (!).... They didn’t have time to blink an eye, as he "changed his shoes" under the aggressive minority !!! ... All Portnov's efforts, within the framework of the legislation, as if someone, in the "uni ... s let down" ... request Well, laws in the interests of civil society do not work here now (!)... request
    2. Logic
      Logic April 13 2021 14: 05
      0
      Citizenship makes it possible to exercise the rule of law, i.e. own the state.
      ---
      There are citizens - there is legality - there is also the state.
      No citizens - no legality - no state.
      ---
      Sham citizens - sham laws - sham state.
      Thieving population - thieves' values ​​- Vovrov state.
  • Hlavaty
    Hlavaty April 11 2021 15: 57
    -2
    Quote: apro
    And what opportunities does citizenship give to influence the actions of the government?

    Here in this place it was worth simply not to answer - to stop "feeding the troll".
    Otherwise, your correspondence with the troll took several screens, instead of discussing the article on the merits.
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets April 11 2021 06: 52
    +17
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And what opportunities does citizenship give to influence the actions of the government?

    Look at attempts to raise gasoline prices in France, for example. Unfortunately, both citizens and non-citizens have no other opportunities today, unfortunately.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan April 11 2021 12: 50
      +8
      I will also give a French example: the government there, just as in our country, decided to raise the retirement age and the people did not tolerate it, but took to the streets and defended their benefit. And our people did not come out, there are many reasons why, here are the main ones - mass fooling with propaganda and the fear of getting hit on the head with a truncheon, as well as the fear of real prison terms.
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 57
        -4
        So he did not go out in many places, this unconscious people. You will ask there what happens to the retirement age in general on the planet and in civilized Europe and totalitarian Asia. smile By the way, in France, the retirement age is 62 years old. So shta ... Well, you understand.
        1. Sergej1972
          Sergej1972 April 11 2021 23: 30
          -2
          They have a lot of preferential categories that came out earlier. But, on the other hand, if there is no work experience, then even at 62 you will not receive a decent pension.
          1. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 01: 35
            -1
            I actually wanted to say that this is a global trend. Poor demography (low birth rate and an increase in the number of pensioners), the crisis in the world economy and capitalist competition simply force such measures to be taken. The example of France does not affect anything. Sooner or later, they will push through an increase in the retirement age.
      2. Dart2027
        Dart2027 April 11 2021 14: 02
        +2
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        I will also give a French example: the government there, just like ours decided to raise the retirement age and the people did not tolerate it, but took to the streets and

        The French government will pass the pension reform bill without a vote in parliament, Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said during a speech in the lower house of parliament.
        According to the government, the deficit of the French Pension Fund could reach 2025 billion euros by 17.
        https://rg.ru/2020/02/29/pensionnaia-reforma-vo-francii-budet-priniata-bez-golosovaniia-v-parlamente.html
  • Logic
    Logic April 13 2021 13: 45
    0
    Citizenship makes it possible to exercise the rule of law, i.e. own the state.
    ---
    There are citizens - there is legality - there is also the state.
    No citizens - no legality - no state.
    ---
    Sham citizens - sham laws - sham state.
    Thieving population - thieves' values ​​- Vovrov state.
    State and citizens.
  • Archon
    Archon April 11 2021 06: 29
    +15
    Well, this is such a dubious statement. There are always guilty specific people who are in positions, and the statement that a citizen is responsible for his state is tantamount to removing the guilt from these people.
    1. apro
      apro April 11 2021 06: 33
      -12%
      Quote: Archon
      tantamount to removing the blame from these people.

      Not removal, but strengthening of control and responsibility.
    2. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 11: 38
      +29
      Quote: Archon
      There are always guilty specific people who are in positions, and the assertion that a citizen is responsible for his state is tantamount to removing the guilt from these people.

      Is not tantamount to where power is is selectedAnd not transplanted from one chair to another for 20 years.

      which is what happened.
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 14: 01
        +1
        Wherever she is chosen, she will always defend the interests of the ruling class. That is, they are not at all your interests. Well, unless you are a capitalist.
        1. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 15: 42
          +1
          Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
          Wherever she goes she will always defend the interests of the ruling class... That is, they are not at all your interests. Well, unless you are a capitalist.
          here it is logical (!). smile
          Who funded electoral campaign for power, that - "sowed", and it means and has the right - "reap" !!! yes
          plus you, for the sobriety of thought hi
  • depressant
    depressant April 11 2021 09: 04
    +18
    Apro colleague, let me disagree with you. Choosing a political power, we delegate to it our right to carry out foreign policy on the assumption that the chosen power is reasonable and will conduct a reasonable foreign policy. But when it turns out that the government is unreasonable, we cannot influence it - there is no political mechanism of such influence, it was initially, from the moment of the formation of the Russian Federation, not incorporated into the Constitution or legislation. On the contrary, every year, through the power of the authorities, the number of legislative acts that narrow the possibility of citizens' influence on the country's politics is growing catastrophically, by now turning our political opportunities into a thin thread of street protests - a thread that is easily cut by the scissors of countless law enforcement agencies on legal grounds. ...
    On the other hand, by mockingly speaking about the passivity of citizens, you take responsibility for eliminating such an unfortunate situation, obviously having something to offer instead of unproductive street protests, which, moreover, erode the integrity, therefore, the country's security from external influences.
    So suggest!
    1. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 11: 41
      +26
      Quote: depressant
      , we cannot influence it - there is no political mechanism of such influence, it was initially, from the moment of the formation of the Russian Federation, not incorporated into the Constitution or legislation.

      I disagree. The first elections were real - a struggle of opinions and views. And when they settled down more comfortably in the armchairs, the people became the electorate and they quickly removed everything. The amendment "against all" was removed in 2006 by a decision of the State Duma. That's when everyone started to turn bronze.
  • Ka-52
    Ka-52 April 12 2021 11: 06
    -1
    If you are a citizen, then yes, you are responsible for the activities of the government, and if you are a layman, then yes, there are no questions

    44 minus for such a completely logical (for a sane person) comment perfectly shows the generality of the topvar's public thinking. Like if I don't like a fact, I'd rather deny its existence than put up with it. This behavior is well known in psychology.
  • prior
    prior April 11 2021 08: 21
    +12
    The "lousy rotten intelligentsia", to which I include everyone who is not connected with real production, has pumped the USSR. Betrayal and that's it. The slogans were different, but the essence is the same - betrayal.
    And Ukraine. As long as the name of the territory Ukraine sounds, as long as a person realizes himself as a Ukrainian, as long as this territory will be Anti-Russia, and people are opponents of everything Russian.
    They called the territory Belarus, and there are practically no problems either with the language, or with the confrontation, or with the economy, because the name itself contains an integral part of Russia.
    Ukraine, as a state, needs to be destroyed. And in its place to form-Novorossiya, Little Russia, Svyatorossiya, but necessarily-.... Russia, inhabited by Russians.
    And that's all. There is no Ukraine, there is no Ukrainianness, there is no opposition, there are no problems either for Russia, and ultimately for Europe.
    1. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 11: 43
      +35
      Quote: prior
      The "lousy rotten intelligentsia", to which I include everyone who is not connected with real production, has pumped the USSR.

      The question immediately arises: where was the "legendary" KGB, which defended the constitutional order of the USSR? And where was the Central Committee of the CPSU? What kind of country was the USSR, which was destroyed by the "lousy intelligentsia? Is it not funny for you?"
    2. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 15: 49
      +4
      Quote: prior
      And Ukraine. As long as the name of the territory Ukraine sounds, as long as a person realizes himself as a Ukrainian, as long as this territory will be Anti-Russia, and people are opponents of everything Russian.
      belay
      Quote: prior
      They called the territory Belarus, and there are practically no problems either with the language, or with the confrontation, or with the economy, because the name itself contains an integral part of Russia.
      belay
      I hope you are kidding ?! It hurts like PHOBIA !!! winked
      Quote: prior
      Ukraine, as a state, needs to be destroyed. And in its place to form-Novorossiya, Little Russia, Svyatorossiya, but necessarily-.... Russia, inhabited by Russians.
      sounds very "not funny" (!).... Approximately as the plans of Operation OST, at the beginning of the Second World War, in relation to all "subhuman", including Slavs ...? !!!. request winked TINNESS !!! yes
    3. Black lotos
      Black lotos April 11 2021 16: 24
      -3
      Quote: prior
      Ukraine, as a state, needs to be destroyed. And in its place to form-Novorossiya, Little Russia, Svyatorossiya, but necessarily-.... Russia, inhabited by Russians.
      And that's all. There is no Ukraine, there is no Ukrainianness, there is no opposition, there are no problems either for Russia, and ultimately for Europe.

      violation of communications will lead to a deterioration in the situation and standard of living.
      The economy is above emotions. Nothing changes from the name, but everything from economic ties.
    4. Genry
      Genry April 11 2021 16: 57
      +2
      Quote: prior
      The "lousy rotten intelligentsia" rocked the USSR

      I don’t argue about the intelligentsia, but the question is: who put Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Shushkevich, Kravchuk on the highest posts in the USSR? It can be seen from them that a political sabotage operation was carried out.
      Thank Khrushchev, who lifted the control of the security services over party functionaries. It all started with him.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    5. boni592807
      boni592807 April 11 2021 18: 46
      +3
      prior (Vlad), Today, 08:21, NEW - "... And Ukraine. As long as the name of the territory Ukraine sounds, as long as a person realizes himself as a Ukrainian, until then this territory will be Anti-Russia, and people are opponents of everything Russian ..."

      The answer to the question - "Why did this happen?", can be obtained by reading the history of the Republic of Ingushetia, the USSR and the Russian Federation with O, Ukraine and answering questions:
      - who "created" oh, Kraintsov, by what means and from whom. In a similar way, the spirits "reformatted" Soviet (Russian) prisoners in Afghanistan, whom they could break;
      -who created O, the land on the territory of the former Republic of Ingushetia, during the creation of the Soviet state,
      - what territories were "given away" and why was the general krainization so successful. Which, if it was a reality, it was only among the Westerners(see item 1);
      -why the current "successful" in Soviet times were such current non-zalezhnoy heroes - as Farion, Kravchuk and others (see their Soviet positions), as it turned out later, the children, grandchildren of the pardoned policemen and "fighters" UNA-UNSO during the Second World War fed the authorities in the USSR and then headed Oh, Ukraine ?!
      - why, there were "wise" thoughts of the so-called. "satellites", that they somehow feed and support the RSFSR, although the data said that the more subsidies, the more DIFFERENCE (greatness) was. Why, THIS phenomenon was not "sanitized" in the process of life under the USSR;
      - about the collapse of the USSR, the question is superfluous, see above;
      - why did the RSFSR not use the chance to "return", according to previously known data, not only ethnic indigenous Russians - repatriation - only ethnic Russians (mostly highly qualified scientists, engineers, and other humanities, workers, etc.) were 50 mln. human, "scattered" throughout the USSR to raise the level of education and create a trade union base in most of the union republics. ТAs well as the territory "donated" to Free Shipping during the creation of the USSR No agreements on two-sided relations have been concluded, as did our western partners? Providing in advance GUARANTEES for the future
      - why in the Russian Federation did they not "see" the process of "banderization" the vertical of power O, the land and the creation of IM and "assault detachments" did not understand PERSPECTIVE or how ...;
      - why 2014, with a complete mess on O, Ukraine, did not use the chance, then the legitimate president of O, the land of Yanukovych to close the problem of O, the land (see Brzezinski)
      - a question for the current oh, kraintsy... Lads, you yourself are not crap to call your state - OKRAINOI ?! It is clear once: Austria-Hungary, Poles (the territory of the Commonwealth), ...
      R.S. If you answer the questions, then the solution is near. True, at a high price. It was not for nothing that Tsar Alexander 3, Stolypin, Mendeleev and others (RI), later Zinoviev (after the USSR) formulated solutions and problems ...
      Unfortunately, "... there are no prophets in their Fatherland." but, there is an opinion of the former Soviet -
      15.08.2016, 21:34, Heading: Incidents World Disorder
      Former head of the Israeli secret service on the main causes of the problems that threaten the world
      Text: Vladimir Snegirev. Russian newspaper - Federal issue No. 181 (7049)
      "... The collapse of tsarism in Russia was inevitable. However, the collapse of the Soviet Union could have been prevented... It was not the result of intelligent actions or the result of natural processes. Of course, Moscow's enemies have always wanted this, but it was not their covert operations that led to the collapse ...
      ...However, this does not apply, as I understand it, to the fall of the communist regime itself. He was doomed ...
      - Once Vladimir Kryuchkov, who was then head of the KGB, asked me what I thought about communism. I warned him: my answer will surprise you very much. And this is what he said: one cannot judge communism only by the Stalinist repressions. This is the same as judging Christianity only by the Inquisition. It wasn't communism that collapsed and the system of power that proclaimed his slogans collapsed. China, finding itself in a similar situation, found another way out. And copes well with new challengesSource: https://versia.ru/yakov-kedmi-totalnomu-terroru-nado-obyavit-totalnuyu-vojnu.
      Do you think that they (the terrorists) will try to do in Moscow what they did in Paris?

      - Attempts to penetrate the Russian capital have been, are and will be. I think the FSB knows about this. But even here it is necessary to adapt to a completely new reality. It is necessary to create a professional base, agents that could infiltrate the ranks of the terrorist IS or its potential cells in Russia, it is necessary to attract specialists who would know and understand how to work with Muslims. The use of the FSB without considering these features can lead to tragic failures. Terror today is not lonely terror, it is total terror... And therefore, total war must be declared against total terror. Everything else is a waste of time.(https://versia.ru/yakov-kedmi-totalnomu-terroru-nado-obyavit-totalnuyu-vojnu)
      Verbose, yes. repeat so THIS is what they say is older ... wink
      Good luck. hi
  • 210ox
    210ox April 11 2021 08: 45
    +16
    Yes. Here's a look, what is so good and attractive that we can offer? Cheap energy sources, open borders? That's probably all. Therefore, they look at the clean, well-groomed West with a high standard of living. But for this you need to work hard, and not waddle. This also applies to Central Asia - they also look into the mouths of more developed Muslim countries. We can only offer them a vacancy for Gaster.
    1. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 11: 51
      +27
      Quote: 210ox
      Here's a look, what is so good and attractive that we can offer? Cheap energy sources, open borders?

      It's all about the conception of the development of the elites. In Ukraine, the elites have always focused on the West, in Russia - on greatness and indulgence, the complex of "big brother". The situation is approximately the same with regard to Belarus. With all this, everyone was enriching themselves with great speed.
      The Kremlin, thinking that it could buy the entire elite of Ukraine, was mistaken - on the day when the EU and the United States pressed the Ukrainian elite with the threat of losing their property, it, the elite, realized that a bird in its hands is better than a pie in the sky. And Ukraine turned to the West.
      This just confirms that
      We have lost an entire country solely through our own fault. And we are trying to hide this fact from our own eyes.
      1. 210ox
        210ox April 11 2021 12: 32
        +12
        To be honest, I don't understand the word ELITE. Anyone can be combed to her. Here in my village the elite are two brothers of a businessman, former criminals. In Krasnodar, the elite are those who have the necessary connections and money. And in Moscow? Yes, the same thing. Only on a large scale. And about greatness ... We had greatness when the USSR existed. And now the situation is interesting. Lost economic power and allied countries or fellow travelers. And those who consider themselves the elite in Moscow or the Kremlin understand that this is the only country where they can do whatever they want. They will not be accepted anywhere in the event of a mess (personally, I am against such a development). And so they are trying to play the role of patriots (for this and generously pouring money into those who cannot put two words together in Russian). The trouble is that our greatness and power are not backed up. The army is the only stronghold of statehood. But the army also needs a developed industry and a lot of money. And do not forget that we are left alone. No capitalist country alone can stand.
      2. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 16: 01
        +1
        Quote: Overlock
        It's all about the conception of the development of the elites.
        many have so ... yes
        Quote: Overlock
        In Ukraine, the elites have always been oriented towards the West
        well yes. where "it smells like dough" ... sorry, but in Russia ? !! (Berezovsky, Abramovich, etc.) ? !!
        Quote: Overlock
        ..in Russia - for greatness and condescension, the complex of "older brother".
        do not you please do not confuse yourself and others (!)... No. your elites are striving to integrate there (!). but as for the "mania (and not the complex) of the OLDER brother", so this is another offshoot .... for the internal user (!). yes
        Quote: Overlock
        The Kremlin, thinking that it can buy the entire elite of Ukraine, was mistaken-
        behavior model - "philistine in the nobility" (a kind of nouveau riche), turned out to be a mistake (!)... so -
        We are solely through our own fault lost an entire country. And we are trying to hide this fact from our own eyes.
        interesting, uv. Author: A. Voskresenskywho generally associates with the word in a given phrase - "WE" ... ?!!! request wink
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 April 11 2021 23: 33
      0
      Oddly enough, according to the human development index, most Muslim countries are still inferior to Central Asians.
      1. 210ox
        210ox April 12 2021 06: 27
        0
        Tell this to the Tajiks and Kyrgyz.
        1. Sergej1972
          Sergej1972 April 12 2021 15: 59
          0
          And you compare the average Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indonesian, Afghan, on the one hand, and Uzbek, Kazakh, and, with some reservations, Tajik and Kyrgyz. So, the general level of development, culture, education among Kazakhs and Central Asians, and among Azerbaijanis living in the Caucasus, will be higher. The level is higher or comparable, perhaps, only among the Turks and, possibly, among the Iranians.
  • Anzhey V.
    April 11 2021 09: 46
    +10
    We are, we are, we are! The author seriously considers us: me, the commentators and readers of VO, just Russian citizens, responsible for the failures in foreign policy? Why doesn't it write directly that it is the government of the Russian Federation that gives carte blanche to murky clans, merges work with the population of Ukraine and not only, and so on ...


    Thinking people themselves will understand what is at stake.

    Poking your fingers at those in power is an extremely ungrateful and dangerous business. I have come across this personally - and you probably not, since you are proposing to do it in this very form)
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan April 11 2021 13: 21
      +3
      Andrey, I support and thank you for the article. And I agree that now they can be imprisoned for any careless statement, the case will be "sewn up" instantly. They do this with the unwanted - they are prosecuted for the slightest offense, they are imprisoned even for seemingly innocent actions.
      1. Anzhey V.
        April 11 2021 15: 15
        +6
        Thank you, comrade!

        Yes, the times are everywhere such that it is necessary to write to the public very carefully and thoughtfully ...
    2. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 14: 03
      -4
      Quote: Anjay V.
      Thinking people themselves will understand what is at stake.

      The rhetorical patterns of liberals are detected. laughing
    3. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl April 11 2021 16: 03
      +2
      Quote: Anjay V.
      Poking your fingers at those in power is an extremely ungrateful and dangerous business. I have come across this personally - and you probably not, since you are proposing to do it in this very form
      ... Well, brother, - "took up tug, don't say not a dozen !!! " ... wink
  • Overlock
    Overlock April 11 2021 11: 33
    +24
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The author seriously considers us: me, the commentators and readers of VO, just Russian citizens, responsible for the failures in foreign policy?

    And who is to blame! Who Chose Power? Who continues to worship her?
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan April 11 2021 13: 23
      +1
      Do you really think that 80% of the population votes for them?
      1. Overlock
        Overlock April 11 2021 14: 08
        +21
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        Do you really think that 80% of the population votes for them?

        They vote less, but they do not go to the polls - more. The calculation is on the turnout. When everyone votes "against" the fraud is much more difficult to handle
    2. Alexey Polyakh
      Alexey Polyakh April 14 2021 17: 59
      0
      Quote: Overlock
      And who is to blame! Who Chose Power? Who continues to worship her?


      The Central Election Commission.
  • Svarog
    Svarog April 11 2021 14: 42
    +9
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Why doesn't it write directly that it is the government of the Russian Federation that gives carte blanche to murky clans, merges work with the population of Ukraine and not only and so on ...

    Didn't you notice that now you just stopped writing ... what wonderful and sharp articles Roman Skomorokhov had ... and where are they? Censorship is already like an ax, apparently hanging over their heads .. It's good that they still write that way .. and thanks for that ..
  • Nyrobsky
    Nyrobsky April 11 2021 22: 04
    +5
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    We are, we are, we are! The author seriously considers us: me, the commentators and readers of VO, just Russian citizens, responsible for the failures in foreign policy? Why doesn't he write directly that it is the government of the Russian Federation that gives carte blanche to murky clans, merges work with the population of Ukraine and not only, and so on ...
    Because the author is lying.
    Deliberately, or by misunderstanding, but he is lying trying to present the "problem of the loss of some fraternal territories" from the position of a "clean tablecloth", as if in the history of Russia in the 90s there was no economic devastation, a civil war (with international terrorists) in Chechnya, a rapid surrender of their sovereign rights and geopolitical interests, the aspiration of regions and individual regions to sovereignty and other "democratic acquisitions", as a result of which the main task was not to confirm some kind of "brotherhood", but to elementarily preserve their own statehood, so as not to collapse on a bunch of principalities. As if Russia, all the years after the collapse of the USSR, "bathing like cheese in oil," because of its laziness and shortsightedness, stupidly did not consider it necessary to look closely at Ukropostan. Not an article, but Yaroslavna's cry and self-flagellation woven from obvious facts without trying to understand the root causes of why this became possible. Meanwhile, the answer lies on the surface - the leadership of Russia under the leadership of the EBN, at that time itself was very busy with the mattresses, which at that time and determined the course and policy of Russia, like the same Kravchuk and Kuchma, who went to the same place where the EBN dragged Russia too. They went THERE together! Mattresses at the level of advisers "disinterestedly" helped them in this by drawing up the Constitution and a number of laws that determined the interstate relations of Russia with the former "satellites". Now they (mattresses) supervise Ukraine, as a result of which it has the same achievements - economic devastation and civil war. The difference between what was happening in Russia then and in Ukraine now is 25 years. The trouble is that, given their puncture in Russia with GDP, mattresses will not leave the Ukrainians such an opportunity to bring to power a person who can resist the tricks of the Americans and all candidates for the throne of the Independent will, to one degree or another, depend on the United States. It is a pity that there is no place for a minus under the article.
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 05: 28
    +2
    Quote: Comrade
    Such sentiments were very widespread, which is why the inhabitants of the Ukrainian SSR rushed to vote for secession from the USSR.

    Why didn't anyone oppose all this? Or opposed? Well, that means they worked badly, and this is what the author writes about.
    1. WHAT IS
      WHAT IS April 11 2021 06: 02
      +21
      Yes, as in the RSFSR, the results were - the majority voted for the union.
      1. Icarus
        Icarus April 11 2021 18: 45
        +2
        You are mistaken. In Ukraine in 1991, even the question at the referendum was formulated differently: On the existence of Ukraine in the CIS. They did not want any kind of union (the authorities and the majority who took part in the voting) even then. But it was possible and necessary to keep Ukraine in the orbit of Russia by working with the population, with their minds (propaganda, education (free in Russia), the church ...), and not just with the clans, about which an article was written, with the author of which I agree a lot.
    2. 210ox
      210ox April 11 2021 08: 48
      +11
      That's it. Downed pilots were appointed to diplomatic work in the former republics. About Rossotrudnichestvo was recalled only after various scandals. And most of them have never heard of such an organization.
    3. Anzhey V.
      April 11 2021 09: 41
      +11
      Why didn't anyone oppose all this? Or opposed? Well, that means they worked badly


      It is extremely pleasant to see people who are able to understand the central thesis of the article without falling into a nervous-hysterical fit from the combination of “Ukraine” and “our mistakes”.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan April 11 2021 13: 30
        +5
        When they say that Russia's foreign policy is smart and competent, I immediately cite the example of Ukraine and ask - who is to blame? Where did our diplomats who were in Ukraine look, did they really not report on the situation to the top in the Foreign Ministry? What did the FSB think when intelligence reported to them about the situation in Ukraine? Who ignored all this information and essentially hid their heads in the sand? Who made the final decision on Ukraine?
        The answers to these questions tell who is to blame.
        1. Overlock
          Overlock April 11 2021 14: 10
          +23
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          and I ask - who is to blame? Where did our diplomats who were in Ukraine look, did they really not report on the situation to the top in the Foreign Ministry? What did the FSB think when intelligence reported to them about the situation in Ukraine?

          They are to blame for one simple reason - they all sawed money together. Nothing brings people together like teamwork and joint theft
        2. Vladimir Mashkov
          Vladimir Mashkov April 11 2021 15: 43
          -5
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          When they say that Russia's foreign policy is smart and competent, I immediately cite the example of Ukraine and ask - who is to blame?

          Are there ideal people? Not. ALL make mistakes! Only some more, others less. Yes, both Wednesday and time always leave their mark: people always act in the situation existing at that moment.

          And today's Russian policy is both smart and competent (although not infallible). IN of today's conditions. And one of her mistakes (perhaps the biggest one) is Ukraine.

          And yes! - "giraffe" is to blame, of course. He has a lot of mistakes (Mausoleum, Solzhenitsyn, Mannerheim, Lubyanka, ... a lot!). But ... after all, Stalin had their mistakes! And whose mistakes are more significant and more harmful? One thing is certain: both the one and the other have done positive (and the "giraffe" also does) much more negative!
        3. ANB
          ANB April 11 2021 16: 11
          0
          ... Who ignored all this information and essentially hid their "head in the sand"

          I wouldn't be so sure I was ignored. In any case, under Putin. Another thing is that the FSB is not omnipotent. They could not cope with the theft of radio components with precious metals.
        4. Alex777
          Alex777 April 11 2021 21: 59
          +1
          Who made the final decision on Ukraine?

          You do not understand much about what and how is happening in our country. Therefore, you ask such questions. wink
          But if there had not been a coup in Kiev and the flight of Yanukovych, there would have been no topic "Crimea is ours." yes
          When you understand this, stop asking such questions.
          Sincerely. hi
      3. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 14: 06
        -4
        It’s strange. And I thought the central thesis of the article is the missed opportunities to capture the world and possibly the universe by means of Russian cinematography.
        1. Black lotos
          Black lotos April 11 2021 16: 31
          -2
          Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
          And I thought the central thesis of the article is the missed opportunities to capture the world and possibly the universe by means of Russian cinematography.

          Russian programs and even more so series and clips are still watched in Ukraine, and vice versa.
          However, they do not have the same attractiveness as in the western ones. Roughly the same picture of the stratification of society and problems. Therefore, they are popular, but they perform poorly the role of soft power. But the problem here is not in the cinema itself, but in the economy and society. Film is a slice of life. We cannot always paint a rainbow picture in the cinema, there are not so many fans of science fiction. But ordinary life paintings do not carry the desired image.
          1. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 16: 40
            0
            Quote: Black Lotos
            However, they do not have the same attractiveness as in the western ones.

            And why should they be popular if, in the mass, they are crooked cheap tracing paper from the same Western ones? In general, of course, all these cinematic suffering, they are simply ridiculous. The same Indians, Chinas and other Brazilians churn out any kind of cine slag in tons and distribute it around the planet, but somehow no special influence has yet been observed. Maybe all the same, first the economy and a high standard of living, and then an offensive on the cinematic front?
            1. Black lotos
              Black lotos April 11 2021 23: 30
              -2
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Maybe all the same, first the economy and a high standard of living, and then an offensive on the cinematic front?

              absolutely right.
              TV series stereotypes
              Indian dances (where is the image of attraction)
              Russian bandits (similar)
              Brazilian - Lots of vanilla with no meaning for women
              etc..
              where they just show a decent life. Clean and good life and life.
              European American TV series.
  • nickname7
    nickname7 April 11 2021 06: 05
    +15
    Here we must separate two things: the desire of the elite and the propaganda that the elite uses to achieve their goals. The elite wanted to panic without reporting to the center, for which they incited nationalism, the West also benefited from the division, they threw "gasoline" into this process.
    so after all, Moscow takes almost everything from us

    The propaganda method was based on the greed of a little man, they told him they ate you, they took a piece of sausage, you need to separate and then you will get the sausage.
    But all the benefits from the separation were received by the elite, which, in turn, the West used for not just separation, but for setting off and building a cordon sanitaire, the escalation must constantly increase.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan April 11 2021 13: 35
      +2
      And why did not Moscow pursue a similar policy in Ukraine, only on the contrary, in its favor? And why do we still not work in this respect with Belarus and Kazakhstan, which are still loyal to us? After all, we will lose them too.
      1. Overlock
        Overlock April 11 2021 14: 13
        +19
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        do we not work with Belarus and Kazakhstan, which are still loyal to us?

        Listen, what kind of loyalty? 2 weeks ago:
        Aide to the President of Russia, ex-Minister of Culture Vladimir Medinsky appealed to the deputies of the Federation Council with a request to think, "how did it happen that the Great Russian lands ended up on the territory of Ukraine, Kazakhstan and even Belarus?"
        Read more: https://www.nur.kz/politics/universe/1905542-pomoschnik-putina-velikorosskie-zemli-okazalis-na-territorii-kazahstana/
        And what should those mentioned against the background of troops along the borders with Ukraine think? - "It can be the same with us" and try to dissuade them
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 April 11 2021 14: 56
          0
          Quote: Overlock
          And what should those mentioned against the background of the troops along the borders with Ukraine think?

          That it would be better for them not to quarrel with Russia, because if something happened to a bear only to stretch out a paw, and a bald eagle across the ocean, and it’s not a fact that it will do anything at all, except to be indignant.
        2. already a Muscovite
          already a Muscovite April 13 2021 16: 00
          0
          “I refer you to 1991, you and I distributed everything ourselves,” said Mr. Medinsky. “After Belovezhskaya Pushcha, not a single politician, not a single officer, no one went out into the street. There was not even eight people to go out to Red Square and say: "Let's save the Soviet Union." The entire KGB apparatus, all Soviet propaganda, the Central Committee of the CPSU, the nuclear potential - all of them were powerless against the passionate attack of the "romantics from Ogonyok" "on the Soviet version of history. And now even purely historical research and articles on the topic: "How did it happen that historically Great Russian territories were in the process of forming the union republics a part of the Kazakh SSR, Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR?" evoke great emotions even among "our friends". Dig, who cares! ”- these are the words of Medinsky, and what is wrong with them? It is the Kazakh site that manipulates Medinsky's words and kindles.
      2. Anzhey V.
        April 11 2021 15: 25
        +1
        And why did not Moscow pursue a similar policy in Ukraine, only on the contrary, in its favor? And why do we still not work in this respect with Belarus and Kazakhstan, which are still loyal to us? After all, we will lose them too.


        Unfortunately, we have already lost Kazakhstan.

        About 5 years ago there was an opportunity for us to painlessly create levers of influence in the country, but now Ankara has entered it - and the Turks are acting extremely quickly and skillfully.

        Among other things, Kazakhstan, as an international logistics hub, gave its attention to the UK (which is behind Turkey's back), and the British shouldn't have been given a head start in undercover games ...

        Belarus is with us for now, but only as long as there is Lukashenka.

        He himself, however, is successfully cultivating Belarusian nationalism, and what will become of their attitude towards Russia after his departure is a big question.

        Unfortunately, there is simply no systematic political work in Belarus.
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 16: 22
          -3
          Quote: Anjay V.
          and the Turks are extremely quick and skillful.

          I wonder what prevents the Turks from quickly and skillfully developing their economy? With which, obviously, everything is not very good even according to such indirect observations as the whistling fall of the Turkish tugrik exchange rate.
          1. Anzhey V.
            April 11 2021 18: 35
            0
            I understand that you really want to be noticed (I saw all your comments), but I have no desire to communicate with pathetic provocateurs. So no offense, buddy, but we are not on the way)
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 18: 52
              0
              Here YOU are very much mistaken. That's right, there was a little sarcasm. From a pathetic provocateur. In the end, do not take seriously everything that YOU wrote in your article?
              1. Anzhey V.
                April 11 2021 19: 40
                +1
                Well, if you want to communicate normally, then I apologize for the "pathetic provocateur." It was wrong.

                I do not claim to be the ultimate truth. Frankly speaking, this is impossible - the topic is too complex to fit even in a dozen of such articles.

                Whether it is necessary to agree with everything is not for me to decide. But I know for sure that our foreign policy, to put it mildly, is far from optimal both in its means and in the end result. And I'm pretty sure we can change that.
                1. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 21: 08
                  +2
                  And what will this soft power rely on? Our mighty economy? A high standard of living for the bulk of the population? For what? I do not see any possibility at all to change anything within the framework of the capitalist economic system. And the further the more I'm sure of this. You are talking about soft power, and this is against the background of growing militarization around the world. The whole world is preparing for a war where it will not be soft power at all to decide. And it remains only to hope that everything will cost only, albeit large, but wars without the use of nuclear weapons. That the next reboot of capitalism will not cost us billions burned in an atomic flame. All around there is chatter and no real decisive action to change something drastically.
                  1. Anzhey V.
                    April 11 2021 22: 11
                    0
                    Let me disagree with you, because the only countries in the world that are preparing to seriously solve problems by force of arms are the United States and China.

                    However, both sides are trying to avoid direct confrontation - at least at the current stage, all hostilities are being conducted precisely by means of that very “soft power”.

                    This kind of influence is by no means a call to begin demilitarization. Not at all.

                    I understand your first questions and agree with them. But nevertheless, this is not an unattainable goal.
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 01: 21
                      +1
                      Quote: Anjay V.
                      Let me disagree with you, because the only countries in the world that are preparing to seriously solve problems by force of arms are the United States and China.

                      And that's why all and sundry are increasing military budgets? Moreover, wars are often not fought alone. The United States is forging a coalition of its sworn friends against China. Among which, for example, the same India will not mind to bite off a piece from China and distract the population from internal problems about which our media for some reason do not like to talk about with a small victorious war. Well, yes, a multimillion-dollar strike is not as interesting as some kind of rescue of a cat from a tree in Europe, and that and look can unbend the braces where it is not necessary in our best country in the world, shaking vertical stability.
                      Quote: Anjay V.
                      However, both sides are trying to avoid direct confrontation - at least at the current stage, all hostilities are being conducted precisely by means of that very “soft power”.

                      So far, each other is under pressure economically, but this is still. All this has happened more than once. And there is nothing new under the sun. By the way, what is happening in Ukraine, albeit indirectly, concerns China, and this, frankly, is not entirely soft, and even not at all soft power.
                      Quote: Anjay V.
                      This kind of influence is by no means a call to begin demilitarization. Not at all.

                      And this is extremely unfortunate. There is an injection from all sides. People are once again getting ready to step on the old rake.
                      Quote: Anjay V.
                      But nevertheless, this is not an unattainable goal.

                      So I'm not saying that it is unattainable. I say that it is unattainable exclusively within the framework of the capitalist system. That we have been observing in our country for thirty years already.
        2. Black lotos
          Black lotos April 11 2021 16: 36
          -3
          Quote: Anjay V.
          Unfortunately, there is simply no systematic political work in Belarus.

          then there is simply no problem of "leaving Ukraine, etc." After all, mistakes are not admitted, no conclusions are drawn. And if they do, then only those that worsen the situation (such as forceful actions or economic wars).
          So the Kremlin either does not see the problem or does not recognize it as a problem. Automatically making it out of it is not a problem. (Probably the principle will resolve itself / will not go anywhere)
          Then why argue ... there is no problem. Community requests? Yes, there are a lot of them. They are solved easier - with a promise and beautiful pictures / speeches on TV)
          what else is needed for happiness then ..
        3. Alex777
          Alex777 April 11 2021 22: 09
          0
          Unfortunately, we have already lost Kazakhstan.

          Unfortunately, there is simply no systematic political work in Belarus.

          Why did you decide so? You know something for sure?
          Or zombie gullible souls? wink
          IMHO, underestimate the GDP. And this is good.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter April 11 2021 06: 41
    +16
    Quote: Comrade
    will come.
    And the majority gradually believed in it.

    I will not stop repeating that the national question began to be swayed by forces, namely, within the country. The main task of aggravating interethnic relations was the collapse of the USSR.
    Let me remind you that until 1985-86 there were simply no conflicts on ethnic grounds, there was everyday life, but there was no nationalism.
    And then it went off and on and I assure you, as an eyewitness, that for example, Latvia in 1988 and 1989 are two big differences.
    and now the question is why the almighty service nat. security under the abbreviation KGB did not prevent the development of nationalism in the country and even more calls for its collapse, although this is the direct task of the committee? It turns out that this structure was directly involved in this process.
    And now the second moment, Gorbachev began the collapse of the country, Ebn practically carried it out, but who actually consolidated it? After all, the USSR was not being destroyed in order to allow it to recover. And now I ask you to pay attention to the policy of the Russian Federation regarding the union republics over the past 20 years and compare the relationship at the beginning of the XNUMXs and today.
    Let everyone give the answers to these questions for himself.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 April 11 2021 08: 38
      +15
      Quote: Stroporez
      Gorbachev began the collapse of the country, Ebn practically carried it out, and who actually secured it?

      Medvedev! Well, not Putin... He always has nothing to do with failures. He likes to blame everything on the Bolsheviks. Say, Lenin planted an atomic bomb under our imperial relations. True, I forgot not to explain why Ukraine was safely part of the USSR under the Bolsheviks, and now it is striving for NATO with all its might!
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 April 11 2021 08: 49
        -2
        Quote: Stas157
        True, I forgot not to explain why Ukraine, under the Bolsheviks, was safely part of the USSR

        And why did she so happily leave the USSR? Let alone where did she come from?
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 April 11 2021 08: 51
          +9
          Quote: Dart2027
          Why is she so happy left the USSR?

          From the USSR? At that moment when the USSR was gone? The Belovezhskaya agreements were signed by EBN. The first president of Russia, not the USSR.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 April 11 2021 08: 54
            -3
            Quote: Stas157
            From the USSR? At that moment when the USSR was gone?

            Who destroyed it? Martians?
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 April 11 2021 08: 57
              +17
              Quote: Dart2027
              Who destroyed it?

              All those who are now in power and their followers. They have a hostile attitude towards the communists. Many of them are former communists. Rather, traitors to communist ideas.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 April 11 2021 11: 20
                -2
                Quote: Stas157
                All those who are now in power and their followers.

                Putin or what? By being a major?
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 43
          +2
          Quote: Dart2027
          And why did she so happily leave the USSR?

          Who was the first to leave the USSR?
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 April 11 2021 13: 58
            -1
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            who was the first to leave the USSR

            Well, who is it?
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 07
              +2
              We were sixth. So so, neither fish nor meat.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 April 11 2021 14: 08
                0
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                We were sixth.

                That is, they went out on their own.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  That is, they went out on their own.

                  On their own, on their own ... But Ichkeria was not allowed, they don't fucking drive oil transit at world prices, they have Pasha-Mercedes, he will roll out the whole of Chechnya with one division.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 April 11 2021 14: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    On your own, on your own ... But Ichkeria was not allowed

                    This war was needed in order to destroy Russia, but they did not have time as the EBN was removed.
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    Pasha-Mercedes

                    Soviet officer. In 1969 he graduated with a gold medal from the Ryazan Guards Higher Airborne Command School, in 1981 he graduated with honors from the MV Frunze Military Academy, since 1988 Hero of the Soviet Union.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 56
                      -2
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      This war was needed to destroy Russia,

                      This is something new. Who unleashed the war, those CIA agents who were in the Kremlin, or Dudayev's advisers?
                    2. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 11 2021 15: 02
                      0
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      This is something new.

                      But not very. In the PChV, the army was still not sufficiently collapsed and despite all the giveaways to the militants won, so an urgent peace had to be made. By the beginning of the VChV, everything seemed to be ready, only Putin came to power (obviously not alone) and Basayev was prescribed in full.
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Who unleashed the war, those CIA agents who were in the Kremlin, or Dudayev's advisers?

                      Well, both of them were from the CIA.
                    3. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 08
                      -1
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      and despite all the giveaways to the militants, she won,

                      Blinnnn, Darth, who are you driving the blizzard to? So I will remind you how the first Chechen war ended. "Shamil Basayev, Shamil Basayev, let's agree ..."
                    4. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 11 2021 16: 14
                      0
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      So I will remind you how the first Chechen war ended.

                      Betrayal. Drive the blizzard to someone else.
                    5. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 16: 16
                      0
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Betrayal.

                      Oops! Is Chernomyrdin a traitor?
                    6. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 11 2021 17: 37
                      +2
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Opanki!

                      That is, news to you that whenever the militants were seriously clamped down, an order came from above to "stop the offensive", "stop using heavy weapons" or "enter into negotiations"?
                    7. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 17: 43
                      -2
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      That is, news to you that whenever the militants were seriously clamped down, an order came from above to "stop the offensive", "stop using heavy weapons" or "enter into negotiations"?

                      No, however. Well, who was there a traitor? Whom have they anathematized and condemned? And the second was not? Why did the Pskov paratroopers fight, while their comrades chased lice in their pants on the neighboring hills?
                    8. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 11 2021 17: 46
                      +1
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      No, however. Well, who was there a traitor?

                      The whole top.
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      And the second was not?

                      Judging by the result, if there were, then they could not achieve their goal.
                    9. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 17: 49
                      -1
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Judging by the result, if there were, then they could not achieve their goal.

                      What to achieve? It was only heard about the amnesty for the militants. We bought weapons-ammunition from them. They dragged them in sacks and laughed at the authorities.
                    10. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 11 2021 18: 23
                      +1
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      What to achieve?

                      Putting things in order.
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      It was only heard about the amnesty for the militants.

                      Not everyone.
                    11. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 18: 28
                      -1
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Putting things in order.

                      In the USSR, 300 thousand Russians lived in Chechnya. How much now, after putting things in order?
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Not everyone.

                      Yeah, yeah, they didn't give Khattab and Basayev, the people wouldn't understand.
                    12. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 11 2021 20: 06
                      +1
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      In the USSR, 300 thousand Russians lived in Chechnya.

                      And before the USSR, a significant part of it did not belong to it at all.
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      How many now,

                      Do you propose to resettle the people there?
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Yeah, yeah, they didn't give Khattab and Basayev

                      Not only them. And by the way, in what army was General Jakhar Dudayev?
                    13. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 20: 12
                      0
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Do you propose to resettle the people there?

                      Am I an enemy of the people?
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      And by the way, in what army was General Jakhar Dudayev?

                      In the USSR, however. Major General of the Air Force.
                    14. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 12 2021 19: 24
                      0
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Am I an enemy of the people?
                      Then what do you want? Those who left there in the 90s have long settled in a new place, the rest are already living. So what are your suggestions?
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      In the USSR, however.

                      That's it.
  • kapitan92
    kapitan92 April 11 2021 11: 35
    +2
    Quote: Stroporez
    and now the question is why the almighty service nat. security under the abbreviation KGB did not prevent the development of nationalism in the country and even more calls for its collapse, although this is the direct task of the committee? It turns out that this structure was directly involved in this process.

    hi good
    The author of the article raised a very serious topic. You can defend your doctoral degree on this thetatic!
    We have lost an entire country solely through our own fault. And we are trying to hide this fact from our own eyes.

    First we lost our country. At what stage? Some will think that since the October coup of 1917, others since 1991, or maybe with the arrival of Gorby. At some point we lost our national identity, roots, faith, national culture.
    "For the faith, the Tsar and the Fatherland," the Tsar abdicated the throne long ago and was shot, the Bolsheviks burned Vera with a hot iron, destroying the "skeleton" of national identity. Building temples is good, but faith does not depend on the number of temples and quantity does not translate into quality.
    How long will we retreat on our own land, abundantly watered with the blood of our ancestors, losing in the war of words and public opinion?

    Great question that the author of the article asks. As always: "Who is to blame and what to do?"


    Quote: Stroporez
    Let everyone give the answers to these questions for himself.

    : hi
  • Overlock
    Overlock April 11 2021 11: 53
    +24
    Quote: Stroporez
    the national question began to be swayed by forces, namely, within the country. The main task of aggravating interethnic relations was the collapse of the USSR.

    And at the heart of this was Yeltsin's personal hatred of Gorbachev and a terrible thirst for power.
  • krops777
    krops777 April 11 2021 13: 07
    -2
    and now the question is why the almighty service nat. security under the abbreviation KGB did not prevent the development of nationalism in the country and even more calls for its collapse, although this is the direct task of the committee? It turns out that this structure was directly involved in this process.


    A very correct question, but who can answer it? Data on comrade Andropov Yu.V. with the surname Fleckenstein (from the Jews by their mother) are still classified and, rather, in the interests of the existing government, they are unlikely to be disclosed to the general public.
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 April 11 2021 07: 07
    +13
    Quote: Comrade
    In fact, the ambitions were bless you ... That was it. main ambition Ukraine, pasted on all the pillars and trees .... immediately a fabulous life will come.
    And I gradually believed in it most.

    The Ukrainian SSR is a large territory and a huge population. It is not necessary to generalize everyone. People who served back in the 60s, in the Lvov and Volyn regions, talked about the whole gamut of "friendship of peoples" that they had to experience themselves. Exactly the same attitude was towards the Russians in the Baltic republics. But in the Transcaucasian republics he personally did not experience any discomfort. A couple of times they brought me by car for free, and were keenly interested in the situation in the country. And among the colleagues there were guys from Dnepropetrovsk and Chernigov. And I never heard that "Ukrainian pseudo-patriotism" from them, even over a glass of "strong tea" ...
  • Avior
    Avior April 11 2021 07: 49
    +13
    I think you're exaggerating.
    The presence of cheap, somehow printed leaflets on newsprint pasted on poles does not contradict the fact that the nationalists in Ukraine were a small marginal group and they were not at all making the real decisions. Moreover, in the March referendum, the majority voted for the Union, the opinion of the nationalists was of little concern.

    The shift in mass consciousness took place after the August events. Many painfully perceived that their life was being decided by a small internecine conflict somewhere in Moscow, a relatively narrow circle of people, and the whole country turned out to be like an appendage of the Moscow internecine conflict.
    As a result, they voted for the exit, including in the Crimea - under the influence of the August events, a change in consciousness took place relatively quickly, so people actually voted differently for six months.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr April 11 2021 09: 51
      +7
      Quote: Avior
      The presence of cheap, somehow printed leaflets on newsprint pasted on poles does not contradict the fact that the nationalists in Ukraine were a small marginal group and they were not at all making real decisions.

      Just don't tell this to those who have lived in Ukraine for 22 years and studied in Kiev for 5 years.
      First, nationalism flourished in the scientific and educational environment of Ukrainian society, and Shevchenko University in Kiev was the main breeding ground for this, in contrast to the polytechnic or aviation institutes.
      Secondly, on the slopes of the Dnieper, where the memorial was built, nationalist Kiev youth in the seventies constantly gathered on weekends in groups of many people in embroidered shirts, sang their songs, but they never made contact with those who spoke to them in Russian.
      Thirdly, Ukrainian nationalism reached the very top, for which Shelest was removed:
      In April 1973, when Pyotr Shelest had already left "in connection with the transfer to the post of Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR" to Moscow, but still retained his place in the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU, in Kiev, in the magazine "Komunist Ukrainy", a review of the book " Ukrainian Nasha Radianska ”, the author of which was Shelest. This review was not discussed at the meeting of the editorial board, since it was previously sanctioned by Moscow. This material was called "On the serious shortcomings and mistakes of one book.".

      Everyone who went there on business trips knew that the Bandera regime had never been eradicated in Western Ukraine, and although they tried to hide it in Soviet times, it was just so.

      Quote: Avior
      The shift in mass consciousness took place after the August events.

      This is a lie, because until the nineties he himself witnessed many cases when middle-aged Ukrainians openly accused Russia of robbing them all the years since the time of Khmelnytsky.
      So the soil was fertile even before the August events, they only served as an impetus for all this to get out.
      Quote: Avior
      Many painfully perceived that their life was being decided by a small internecine conflict somewhere in Moscow, a relatively narrow circle of people, and the whole country turned out to be, as it were, an appendage of the Moscow internecine conflict.

      A disgusting lie, because Kiev wanted to rob Ukraine only in its own interests, forgetting that Moscow was obliged to ensure the security of the entire country and its development, and therefore did not allow Ukrainians to do whatever they wanted. Well, the general secretaries Khrushchev and Brezhnev were generally from Ukraine - so who ruled the country then, if not the Ukrainians?

      Quote: Avior
      As a result, they voted for the exit, including in the Crimea - under the influence of the August events, a change in consciousness took place relatively quickly, so people actually voted differently for six months.

      You also tell us that there were no Ukrainian emissaries with leaflets in Crimea, who promised the residents of Crimea a life like in France - I saw this before the August events.
      So do not engage in low-quality propaganda on this forum, there are many of those who know as well as you what Ukraine and Ukrainians are, and how they treated Russia back in the days of the USSR, and why they hated us so much after we refused to subsidize them the economy.
      1. Avior
        Avior April 11 2021 10: 00
        +6
        Shevchenko University in Kiev
        Shevchenko University may have been, but it is one of the huge number of universities in the USSR. As a student of a Ukrainian university in the 80s, I can testify that you are lying. There was no question of any nationalism. There were outward signs of "Ukrainianness" in the form of official events and on UT, they officially spoke Ukrainian. Shelest and Brezhnev are Russians, if you don't know.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr April 11 2021 10: 27
          -2
          Quote: Avior
          As a student of a Ukrainian university in the 80s, I can testify that you are lying. There was no question of any nationalism.

          In this case, you are lying, because you did not want to notice Ukrainian nationalism, and now you are trying to prove that it allegedly appeared only after the collapse of the USSR as a response to Russia's actions. University in which city of Ukraine graduated so that you can understand what you know about the Ukrainian mentality?
          Quote: Avior
          Shelest and Brezhnev are Russians, if you don't know.

          Those. Shelest was not born and raised in the Kharkiv region, but Brezhnev's passport with his nationality is a fake?
          1. Avior
            Avior April 11 2021 10: 44
            -1
            There was nothing to notice.
            There was no such nationalism in the Ukrainian SSR, except for very narrow marginal groups that few people encountered.
            The only official imitation of the Ukrainian surroundings, and the second page in the passport
            And what about Shelest and Brezhnev, you do not know how many Russians are in the Ukraine?
            1. Dimide
              Dimide April 11 2021 14: 55
              -3
              I'll put in my five kopecks.
              I confirm that there was no militant nationalism, there was a national flavor, as well as in other republics.
              In schools, the vast majority of classes were Russian-speaking
              1. ccsr
                ccsr April 11 2021 16: 20
                +4
                Quote: Dimid
                I confirm that there was no militant nationalism.

                Because the horns would have broken off right away, so they secretly spat in our direction, believing that we rob them and spoiled them on the sly, telling that Russians are all drunks, and do you see great workers, although they were thieving by nature.
                Quote: Dimid
                There was a national flavor.

                No, there was nationalism, it was just carefully concealed, it was not for nothing that Shelest was kicked out of Ukraine.
                Quote: Dimid
                In schools, the vast majority of classes were Russian-speaking

                And where did they all go if the children of those who studied in these classes were supposed to have Russian children who speak Russian, considering it their own?
          2. Overlock
            Overlock April 11 2021 13: 26
            +19
            Quote: ccsr
            Is Brezhnev's passport with his nationality a fake?

            They beat / judge not by the passport, but by the face / deeds!
            1. Avior
              Avior April 11 2021 22: 21
              -1
              Different nationalities are indicated in different documents of Brezhnev. While he was working in Ukraine, he wrote as a Ukrainian, left, his views changed.
              1. Sergej1972
                Sergej1972 April 11 2021 23: 43
                +2
                In the official biographies of Shelest in the 60s and 70s, his nationality was indicated as "Ukrainian". And at Shcherbitsky, and at Podgorny too.
        2. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter April 11 2021 10: 45
          +8
          Quote: Avior
          There was no question of any nationalism

          Colleague, the whole question is that we are forced to believe that nationalism developed from the bottom of the people and the preconditions for the collapse of the USSR were, allegedly, laid down from the very beginning. This is not true, nationalism was incited by Gorbachevism, exclusively at the behest from the center. Before Gorbachev, any germs of nationalism were decisively eradicated and only Gorbachev not only did not suppress, but incited nationalism, and already when Gorbachev created artificial economic difficulties, then the seeds of nationalism fell into fertile soil and began.
          1. Avior
            Avior April 11 2021 12: 17
            +3
            At the time of the collapse of the Union in Ukraine, nationalists in the form of Rukh were noticeable, but their real influence was minimal.
            The "elite", that Kravchuk, that Yeltsin wanted personal power for themselves, did not care about any other issues, Yeltsin's level was not enough to claim the first role in the USSR, so he worked to weaken the central government and Gorbachev.
            the people were much more worried about economic problems than national ones; in Ukraine, the influence of nationalists on the opinion of the majority was certainly small.
            The majority wanted to live “as in the West,” and in Russia the situation was exactly the same — that was the main reason.
            The majority of the population associated Gorbachev and the Union with something primitive and outdated, and the West with something modern, like Montana Clock 16 melodies.
            1. Fan-fan
              Fan-fan April 11 2021 13: 57
              -1
              And I did not see nationalism in Ukraine, although I was on a business trip to the Kiev Polytechnic in 1986 and to the Dnepropetrovsk University in 1989. Everyone spoke Russian, and once with a friend standing in line at the buffet, I said: "Let's take this, we don't have this in Moscow," the barmaid heard and asked - are you from Moscow? And she immediately offered to serve us out of line, the people around were not indignant, they did not even look askance at us.
              Although once I heard Ukrainian speech: on the street, eating while standing on their feet, the drunkard swore in a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian.
              1. border
                border April 15 2021 14: 08
                0
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                And I did not see nationalism in Ukraine, although I was on a business trip to the Kiev Polytechnic in 1986 and to the Dnepropetrovsk University in 1989. Everyone spoke Russian, and once with a friend standing in line at the buffet, I said: "Let's take this, we don't have this in Moscow," the barmaid heard and asked - are you from Moscow? And she immediately offered to serve us out of line, the people around were not indignant, they did not even look askance at us.
                Although once I heard Ukrainian speech: on the street, eating while standing on their feet, the drunkard swore in a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian.

                The first half of the 80s. A cadet of a military school (he has already graduated from the technical school) comes from the Zhytomyr region: "Ukraine is feeding the USSR." Without him she will live and life will be better "(there is no question of the collapse of the USSR, Gorbachev was still just one of the functionaries not in the first row), deputy party group at a large factory (native of the Cherkasy region):" Ukraine feeds the USSR. " life itself will be better "(1980), soldier 1988 (native of Western Ukraine, college education):" Ukraine feeds the USSR. " Without it, life itself will live and life will be better. ”Here is a cut for you by age, place and education.
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 01
              +1
              Quote: Avior
              Montana clock 16 tunes.

              Also, by the way, enemy propaganda. Somehow our Komsomol leader started yelling that we all sold out to the West for chewing gum, and then ... La-la-fa ... Montana started playing with him ...
              1. Avior
                Avior April 11 2021 22: 30
                +1
                yeah, many have gone through it smile
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 22: 46
                  0
                  By the way, Montana worked for me for three years, and Electronics - for almost thirty years, a couple of years ago I broke them. They were also with music. And the price is about the same. I bought Montana for 55 rubles, and for how much my uncle took the Electronics, I don’t remember, but the prices seemed to be comparable.
      2. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter April 11 2021 10: 27
        +8
        Quote: ccsr
        So the soil was fertile even before the August events, they only served as an impetus for all this to get out.

        Let me remind everyone that the First Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR adopted the Declaration on State Sovereignty of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic 12th of June 1990 and thus marked the beginning of the "parade of sovereignties" and the further collapse of the USSR!
        1. ccsr
          ccsr April 11 2021 10: 46
          -7
          Quote: Stroporez
          Let me remind everyone that the First Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on June 12, 1990, and thus marked the beginning of the "parade of sovereignty" and the subsequent collapse of the USSR!

          Lies, because the Declaration in general did not affect the structure of the USSR, because until the end of 1991 all the republics were part of the USSR and were guided by all-Union legislation. The Act of Independence of Ukraine was adopted on August 24, 1991, so it will not be possible to draw the declaration to the legislative document.
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 11 2021 11: 12
            +12
            Quote: ccsr
            Lies, because the Declaration in general had no effect on the structure of the USSR,

            Quote: ccsr
            so it will not be possible to draw the declaration to the legislative document.

            Fuck! You are on June 12, what a state. celebrate a holiday ???? The second point, the declaration approved by the congress is law, although formally the laws of the USSR were of priority importance, but the central government did not react in any way, and then the parade of sovereigns, cries of secession, diarchy and everything flew to tarars and after 1,5 years we lost the country.
            and if you take the entire chronology of events from the 85th moment of the approval of the one marked for the post of general secretary, the restructuring (in fact, scrapping) of the economy, imposed on political decisions, both domestic and foreign policy, then you will discover the mechanism of destruction of the USSR.
            Here is an oil painting and as our warrant officer said, “you don’t need to pour kefir in the ass”.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr April 11 2021 16: 13
              +3
              Quote: Stroporez
              Fuck! You are on June 12, what a state. celebrate a holiday ????

              But you never know what holidays the drunk came up with, so this is not an argument. And no one particularly celebrates this day - this is not Victory Day, which rightfully belongs to the USSR, but modern Russia is only a part of that state, but considers it the main holiday of the country. At least I personally think so.
              Quote: Stroporez
              and then, a parade of sovereigns, cries of secession, diarchy, and everything flew to tar-tarars and after 1,5 years we lost the country.

              Well, what has the declaration to do with it, since for another year and a half they could not decide what our people need?
              Quote: Stroporez
              and if you take the entire chronology of events from the 85th moment of the approval of the one marked for the post of general secretary,

              Enough to blame everything on him, you better remember who yelled "Down with the KPSS" at the demonstrations, and now groans that he was deceived. Have you thought about your personal responsibility for the collapse of the country? Well then, think about those who screamed with foam at the mouth that the communists do not allow them to live:

              Quote: Stroporez
              Here is an oil painting and as our warrant officer said, “you don’t need to pour kefir in the ass”.

              This is not an oil painting, but a triumph of the stupidity of those who dreamed of living in capitalist Russia, but at the same time having all the benefits that Soviet power gave them. I’m not sorry for those, it’s a pity that this tragedy happened to my country, after which it ceased to exist.
          2. Avior
            Avior April 11 2021 12: 27
            +2
            The declaration influenced the fact that while formally remaining in the Union, Yeltsin withselmanda worked to weaken the union government and leadership, and after him all the rest
            "Elites" wanted personal power
          3. Overlock
            Overlock April 11 2021 13: 28
            +18
            Quote: ccsr
            The declaration in general had no effect on the structure of the USSR, because until the end of 1991 all republics were part of the USSR and were guided by all-Union legislation. The Act of Independence of Ukraine was adopted on August 24, 1991, so it will not be possible to draw the declaration to the legislative document.

            Do you even remember the chronology of events?
            Declaration of independence of the RSFSR adopted by the First Congress of People's Deputies RSFSR June 12, 1990.
            A similar action in Ukraine took place a month later - the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine was adopted by the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR of the XII convocation 16 July 1990 year.
            After another 4 months:
            24 декабря 1990 года Deputies of the IV Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR, after holding a roll-call vote, decided to consider it necessary to preserve the USSR as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics, and at this referendum in March 1991 Ukraine gave 70,2%, and on the question of including Ukraine in the Union Soviet sovereign states, 80,2% of the voters voted in the affirmative.
            1 декабря 1991 года a referendum on the state self-determination of the Russian Federation took place.
            In general, the expected 70,77% of the votes in favor were received in Russia.
            On the same day, December 1, 1991, an All-Ukrainian referendum took place on December 1, 1991: 90,32% "For".
            The referendums were held on the basis of the Declaration of Independence
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 32
              +4
              Quote: Overlock
              The Declaration of Independence of the RSFSR was adopted by the First Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR on June 12, 1990.

              And we are like that ... Here we remember, there the memory lost, and yesterday pancakes were wrapped in a newspaper.
            2. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter April 11 2021 14: 00
              +7
              Quote: Overlock
              On December 1, 1991, a referendum on the state self-determination of the Russian Federation was held.
              In general, the expected 70,77% of the votes in favor were received in Russia.
              On the same day, December 1, 1991, an All-Ukrainian referendum took place on December 1, 1991: 90,32% "For".
              The referendums were held on the basis of the Declaration of Independence

              Comrade, here I am about the same, only local skakuas have a memory, like an aquarium fish, many have already forgotten that they initially voted for all this shit and ebna, incl.
              1. Overlock
                Overlock April 11 2021 14: 15
                +20
                Quote: Stroporez
                only local skakuas have a memory, like an aquarium fish, many have already forgotten

                Only the strong are able to admit their mistakes, the weak passes them on to others
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter April 11 2021 14: 35
                  +4
                  Quote: Overlock
                  Only the strong are able to admit their mistakes, the weak passes them on to others

                  That's exactly how the bald hair is
                  went along the route that we also indicated to them, and now it is time to collect the stones.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 20
                    0
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    and now it's time to collect stones.

                    Yeah, we eat hedgehogs.
              2. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan April 11 2021 14: 17
                -3
                So I repent, I voted for Yeltsin in 1991, because I was studying in Moscow then, had a Moscow residence permit and could vote. By the way, who should you vote for then? After all, the opponents had faces like Gorbachev, Ligachev and Lukyanov, yes, Zhirinovsky was already there too.
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter April 11 2021 14: 33
                  +3
                  Quote: Fan-Fan
                  So I repent, I voted for Yeltsin in 1991, because I was studying in Moscow then, had a Moscow residence permit and could vote. By the way, who should you vote for then? After all, the opponents had faces like Gorbachev, Ligachev and Lukyanov, yes,

                  Yes, even for the devil bald, but not for him!
                  Since 88, I have been telling everyone that ebn is a bastard, as soon as I read a book published in Canada "confession on a given topic", which was written by the second larva of the louse Valya Yumashev, who is currently an adviser to the current president of the Russian Federation.
                  Point.
                  It is a pity that not all fellow citizens have visited the epiphany. wink
                  1. Alexey Polyakh
                    Alexey Polyakh April 14 2021 18: 23
                    +1
                    EBN relied on a deficit, on the verge of starvation, which was arranged by officials from the nomenklatura.
                    Artificially.
                    Consciously.
                    Purposefully.
                    Methodically.
                2. Svarog
                  Svarog April 11 2021 14: 54
                  +6
                  Quote: Fan-Fan
                  So I repent, I voted for Yeltsin in 1991

                  I did not vote for this ... but it was a sin for his successor ..
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter April 11 2021 15: 23
                    +3
                    Quote: Svarog
                    I did not vote for this ... but it was a sin for his successor ..

                    What year did you wake up, Colleague ?! wink laughing
                    1. Svarog
                      Svarog April 11 2021 15: 27
                      +5
                      Quote: Stroporez
                      Quote: Svarog
                      I did not vote for this ... but it was a sin for his successor ..

                      What year did you wake up, Colleague ?! wink laughing

                      I woke up after Dimon .. well, before that I had already begun to guess .. and in his first term he was his supporter .. laughing hi
                    2. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter April 11 2021 15: 44
                      +5
                      Quote: Svarog
                      I woke up after Dimon .. well, before that I had already begun to guess .. and in his first term he was his supporter ..

                      Hedgehog mayo! belay I do not understand the mechanism, how a person can think that, to put it mildly, a bad person in the form of ebna can bring himself a good person to replace him ??? request
                      A simple example, you have an acquaintance who is not clean on hand, he is a drinker, and before that he squeezed business from your friends, inviting mercenaries with heavy weapons in support and rewriting the charter. And he recommends a business partner to you! How would you react to such a proposal?
                    3. Svarog
                      Svarog April 11 2021 16: 13
                      +7
                      I do not understand the mechanism, how a person can think that, to put it mildly, a bad person in the form of ebna can bring himself a good person to replace him ???

                      Propaganda .. was well built .. bought out of stupidity .. and so yes .. everything is correct and the result is obvious ..
                    4. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter April 11 2021 19: 46
                      +5
                      Quote: Svarog
                      Propaganda .. was well built .. bought out of stupidity .. and so yes .. everything is correct and the result is obvious ..

                      Comrade, I'll chide you a little for your shortsightedness yes But how the silver was grit found, and the sediment remained ..., it follows that you are obliged to enlighten the lost with tenfold power!
                      And remember the main thing, all those who were “for”, deceiving themselves and their consciences, then will be much angrier and gnaw three times harder for their own unjustified illusions and hopes. bully drinks
          4. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 23
            +2
            Quote: Fan-Fan
            By the way, who should have been voted for then?

            GKChP with shaking hands was still. They promised everyone 15 acres. Not in the Far East.
        2. Sergej1972
          Sergej1972 April 11 2021 23: 46
          +1
          Actually, there was no referendum on December 1, 1991 in the RSFSR.
      3. ccsr
        ccsr April 11 2021 16: 36
        -2
        Quote: Overlock
        The referendums were held on the basis of the Declaration of Independence

        A referendum is not a legislative act, like a Declaration - they would be ashamed to cover up their propaganda with ignorant examples. It's time to learn to face the truth, and not create stories that the people allegedly wanted to live happily, but without the Communist Party. Now you live - why do you personally, or people like you, have such nostalgia for Soviet times, since you like to vilify that time?
      4. Black lotos
        Black lotos April 11 2021 16: 52
        -2
        Quote: Overlock
        Do you even remember the chronology of events?

        it turns out the whole USSR is the RSFSR + Ukrainian SSR. The rest mattered far less than these two. It is enough for the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR to achieve self-government from the USSR, that's all. there is no country.
        Then for the RSFSR - the Ukrainian SSR, in general, the most significant country actually turns out. Their joint actions were the action of such a country as the USSR.
        Then again the question is, how did you lose the Ukrainian SSR / Ukraine if it is the most significant country for the former RSFSR, the current Russian Federation?
      5. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 April 11 2021 23: 45
        0
        There was no referendum on December 1, 1991 in the RSFSR.
  • Overlock
    Overlock April 11 2021 11: 55
    +19
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: Avior
    The presence of cheap, somehow printed leaflets on newsprint pasted on poles does not contradict the fact that the nationalists in Ukraine were a small marginal group and they were not at all making real decisions.

    Just don't tell this to those who have lived in Ukraine for 22 years and studied in Kiev for 5 years.
    First, nationalism flourished in the scientific and educational environment of Ukrainian society, and Shevchenko University in Kiev was the main breeding ground for this, in contrast to the polytechnic or aviation institutes.
    Secondly, on the slopes of the Dnieper, where the memorial was built, nationalist Kiev youth in the seventies constantly gathered on weekends in groups of many people in embroidered shirts, sang their songs, but they never made contact with those who spoke to them in Russian.
    Thirdly, Ukrainian nationalism reached the very top, for which Shelest was removed:
    In April 1973, when Pyotr Shelest had already left "in connection with the transfer to the post of Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR" to Moscow, but still retained his place in the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU, in Kiev, in the magazine "Komunist Ukrainy", a review of the book " Ukrainian Nasha Radianska ”, the author of which was Shelest. This review was not discussed at the meeting of the editorial board, since it was previously authorized by Moscow. This material was called "On the Serious Deficiencies and Errors of One Book."

    Everyone who went there on business trips knew that the Bandera regime had never been eradicated in Western Ukraine, and although they tried to hide it in Soviet times, it was just so.

    Quote: Avior
    The shift in mass consciousness took place after the August events.

    This is a lie, because until the nineties he himself witnessed many cases when middle-aged Ukrainians openly accused Russia of robbing them all the years since the time of Khmelnytsky.
    So the soil was fertile even before the August events, they only served as an impetus for all this to get out.
    Quote: Avior
    Many painfully perceived that their life was being decided by a small internecine conflict somewhere in Moscow, a relatively narrow circle of people, and the whole country turned out to be, as it were, an appendage of the Moscow internecine conflict.

    A disgusting lie, because Kiev wanted to rob Ukraine only in its own interests, forgetting that Moscow was obliged to ensure the security of the entire country and its development, and therefore did not allow Ukrainians to do whatever they wanted. Well, the general secretaries Khrushchev and Brezhnev were generally from Ukraine - so who ruled the country then, if not the Ukrainians?

    Quote: Avior
    As a result, they voted for the exit, including in the Crimea - under the influence of the August events, a change in consciousness took place relatively quickly, so people actually voted differently for six months.

    You also tell us that there were no Ukrainian emissaries with leaflets in Crimea, who promised the residents of Crimea a life like in France - I saw this before the August events.
    So do not engage in low-quality propaganda on this forum, there are many of those who know as well as you what Ukraine and Ukrainians are, and how they treated Russia back in the days of the USSR, and why they hated us so much after we refused to subsidize them the economy.

    Disagree
  • Black lotos
    Black lotos April 11 2021 16: 44
    -4
    Quote: ccsr
    Well, the general secretaries Khrushchev and Brezhnev were generally from Ukraine - so who ruled the country then, if not the Ukrainians?

    Khrushchev is a thoroughbred Russian, since he was born in the Kursk province and all his life a party leader, and in the Ukrainian SSR only part of his activities. Neither a native of Ukraine, nor sympathy. He is a party boss, not a Ukrainian nationalist. laughing
    Brezhnev also did not have an adjoined Ukraine (Ukrainian SSR) and all the others. He had the whole USSR.
    Moreover, he is a man and a military man.
    After Brezhnev, the USSR was ruled exclusively by Russian immigrants. And the most Russian General Secretary-Gorbachev had nothing to do with Ukraine at all and let the USSR break up. And Brezhnev has a golden age of the USSR. And the Georgian Stalin has a heroic time. If we consider nationalities in the post of general secretary, then the Russian general secretary somehow lost to the Ukrainian / Georgian. But Khrushchev is also a Russian general secretary. But he did not destroy the country.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr April 11 2021 17: 49
      +2
      Quote: Black Lotos
      But Khrushchev is also a Russian general secretary. But he did not destroy the country.

      You apparently did not take into account that I specifically indicated that
      generally came from Ukraine
      implying in them the mentality characteristic of Ukrainians, which, of course, the party organs have aligned during their careers, but which is difficult to get rid of all their lives. By the way, if you lived in Ukraine, you would notice that the mentality of the Russian people who grew up there is very different from the mentality of the Russian people from our regions. This catches the eye especially for those who did not live there, but when they find themselves in Ukraine, they begin to understand that we are different people. Suffice it to recall the army jokes about the foreman, which were not born out of nowhere.
      1. Avior
        Avior April 11 2021 22: 35
        -2
        generally came from Ukraine

        Khrushchev is a native of Russia. From near Kursk he.
        the mentality of Russian people who grew up there is very different from the mentality of Russian people from our regions

        and the mentality of a Siberian is different from that of a Muscovite. The usual thing
  • Icarus
    Icarus April 11 2021 19: 21
    0
    Moreover, in the March referendum the majority voted for the Union, the opinion of the nationalists was of little concern to anyone.
    Where did you get this from. Just look at the wording of the question at that referendum. There is not a word about the Union. By the way, it was the Crimeans and Sevastopol residents who voted the least (about 50%) at that referendum on the issue of Ukraine being a part of the CIS.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash April 11 2021 08: 19
    +7
    Quote: Comrade
    This was the main ambition of Ukraine, pasted on all the pillars and trees - to heal no worse than the Germans due to the fact that we will stop giving our products to other republics - read, Russia. They say, we will not give it to the Russians for free, but sell it to the same Europeans for currency, a fabulous life will come right away.

    Nonsense, of course. Most of the citizens of the USSR, like the Ukrainian SSR, voted for the preservation of the Union, in a slightly different incarnation, but still. Former party elites, sensing the possibility of uncontrolled power, divided the USSR and the republics. Naturally, exploiting national themes as well. The system of power formed by Stalin turned out to be untenable, the freaks who were at the top can hardly be called state people.
    Ukraine, of course, was lost. SAF, FSB and whatever else, together with the president turned out to be untenable. Of course, there are more interesting and easier topics for all of them - business protection, interest, cuts. And they are unable to work effectively to keep Ukraine in the orbit of Russia, they need to fill their pockets and their relatives. Thieves are governors, thieves of special services, palaces, which the emperors of Ingushetia did not have.
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 April 11 2021 09: 21
      +8
      Please pay attention to the fact that the Ukrainians were promised * a good life * simply by * joining Europe *. Then the desire for a * good life * was justified * by a fair redistribution of resources * and calls, together with the Europeans, to gnaw off these resources from RUSSIA.
      This idea is still very popular with most of the outskirts today. Polls * of public opinion * have shown that today the majority of the Okraintsy * are in favor of the capture of the LPR and DPR by military means, and if the resources of RUSSIA are not yet available, then * redistribute * at least what these * republics * have. Then, when the Europeans are ready, and for RUSSIA, you can start.
      By the way, in the 90s, the percentage of residents of the outskirts wishing to * redistribute * RUSSIAN resources was more than today, both in percentage and in absolute terms, including residents of Donetsk and Lugansk regions.
      You should not be surprised at this, as well as * be enchanted * * by the brotherhood of peoples *, this already happened, During the Civil War. * Whites * were not brought from Mars.
      1. Kronos
        Kronos April 11 2021 10: 57
        +1
        And what is wrong with the desire to live well?
      2. Overlock
        Overlock April 11 2021 12: 04
        +19
        Quote: Vasily50
        Please pay attention to the fact that the Ukrainians were promised * a good life * simply by * joining Europe *.

        Promised for decades, people wanted the best. Can you compare the standard of living in 2010 in the EU compared to Ukraine and Russia?
        The standard of living of the population of the countries of the world in 2012:
        Poland - 32nd place
        Estonia - 35th place
        Slovakia - 36th place
        Hungary - 39th
        Russia - 66 place
        Ukraine - 71rd place.
        Here's an example! Former neighbors lived 2 times better than Ukraine and Russia.
    2. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 11: 57
      +23
      Quote: sevtrash
      Nonsense, of course.

      Nonsense is not nonsense, but how many supported. It's a shame to admit your guilt when you can blame everything on Ukraine. Then the Polovtsy with the Pechenegs, Hitler, Nicholas II went into action.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter April 11 2021 14: 18
        +6
        Quote: Overlock
        Nonsense is not nonsense, but how many supported. It's a shame to admit your guilt when you can blame everything on Ukraine. Then the Polovtsy with the Pechenegs, Hitler, Nicholas II went into action.

        And also the gazdep, the 125th convoy and now a new attack, the Russian Federation has never lived so badly as it did under the baiden.
        And the course, meanwhile
        USD77, 39 + 0,58, EUR92,14 + 0,64 with OIL 63,09-0,52%.
        Hold on to the Imperials and rally around the circle of a friend of friends, summer is coming soon, wild garlic will go, berries, mushrooms and deadwood with oak bark, unless of course all this is forbidden by a strong-willed decision.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 34
        +1
        Quote: Overlock
        Then the Polovtsy with the Pechenegs went into business,

        And in the alleyway we kicked the adversaries, and didn’t give them a damn about their boots ... And we couldn’t put the compass on the galley boat, the rower himself didn’t know where he was rowing.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter April 11 2021 15: 27
          +4
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          And we can't set the compass on the galley boat in any way, the rower himself does not know where to row.

          Eh-heh, he knows exactly where he is rowing, only he does not tell the bilge about it.
          And the escape routes have already been worked out, if what.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 29
            +1
            Quote: Stroporez
            Eh-heh, he knows exactly where he is rowing, only he does not tell the bilge about it.

            Let there be light at the end of the tunnel! And which wires should be closed?
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter April 11 2021 15: 49
              +4
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              And which wires should be closed?

              Those that lead to the bunker. wink
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter April 11 2021 14: 09
      +5
      Quote: sevtrash
      And they are not able to work effectively to keep Ukraine in the orbit of Russia, they need to fill their pockets and their relatives. Thieves are governors, thieves of special services, palaces, which the emperors of Ingushetia did not have.

      Effectively, they only know how to steal and there is no limit to their greed, bribery and embezzlement!
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer April 11 2021 08: 54
    +6
    Then, in the late 80s, many were deceived. I was 91, I was already 21, I served in the army, studied at sea, I thought that I didn’t, but I also believed. And even in a referendum he voted for secession from the USSR. We did not have a "vaccination against lies" back then, we used to believe what they say on TV. In Ukraine, both then and now they treat Russia well, they see it as a fraternal people. Zapukra is not an indicator. They never loved someone else there, even under the tsar, even under the communists, now too. The mentality of eternal slaves))))
    1. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 12: 05
      +24
      Quote: TermNachTER
      In Ukraine, both then and now they treat Russia well, they see it as a fraternal people. Zapukra is not an indicator. They never loved someone else there, even under the tsar, even under the communists, now too.

      Precisely noticed
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev April 11 2021 09: 26
    +3
    Plus to all of the above, they also promised to return "Mazepa's gold" and share it. am
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 10: 43
      +3
      Quote: Alexander Kopychev
      Plus to all of the above, they also promised to return "Mazepa's gold" and share it.

      Everyone was shouting about the gold of the party. It got to the point that Yegorushka Gaidar hired the American detective agency Kroll to search for this gold. Found gold or not, but the report was hidden somewhere far away.
      1. Alexander Kopychev
        Alexander Kopychev April 11 2021 11: 23
        +2
        Found - not found - the tenth thing ... How to return ???
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 11: 26
          +5
          Yes, the fact is that Gaidar read the report and bald. Gold is under his nose, you have to ask drinking companions. 11 chumodans of compromising Rutskoi from the same series.
          1. Alexander Kopychev
            Alexander Kopychev April 11 2021 11: 30
            +2
            Actually, I’m talking about Mazepa’s gold. It settled in Western banks, the Ukrainians even calculated the interest for 300 years. But something is quiet ...
    2. sevryuk
      sevryuk April 11 2021 11: 15
      +1
      Half-work. Mazepa had a copper cross of Judas.
    3. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 12: 05
      +19
      Quote: Alexander Kopychev
      also "Mazepa's gold" was promised to be returned and divided.

      And we didn’t look for the "gold of the party"? laughing
      1. Alexander Kopychev
        Alexander Kopychev April 11 2021 12: 11
        +3
        They were looking for it, of course. Only Svidomo promised to divide the truncated equally equally. And many desired to reap the laurels of the rentier. laughing
  • Tarusa Petrova
    Tarusa Petrova April 11 2021 10: 37
    +7
    Here, I partly agree with you. Yes, Ukraine had such ambitions. But then we just, sorry, pissed her off. We believed that only economic calculation would make our bond stronger. We stopped communicating with them in all areas, except for trade. And the US propaganda is working with might and main - Russian enemies, Bender's propaganda was gaining momentum. Therefore, the author is also right that we stopped looking for new braces and strengthened old ones.
    And we ourselves were not the lacquer picture that the Ukrainians were striving for.
    1. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 12: 08
      +19
      Quote: Tarusa Petrova
      We believed that only economic calculation would make our bond stronger.

      Wrong message. Not an economic calculation, but financing of Ukrainian elites
      Quote: Tarusa Petrova
      We stopped communicating with them in all areas, except for trade.

      Moreover, what was the attitude to the Ukrainian hard workers in Russia! Everywhere they were scammed, from the employer to the police and medicine. One - did not pay extra money, the rest - took away
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets April 11 2021 11: 19
    +6
    And so it was. People were led.
  • Andrei Nikolaevich
    Andrei Nikolaevich April 11 2021 11: 23
    +2
    Comrade, I shake your hand !!! This is exactly what happened.
  • Overlock
    Overlock April 11 2021 11: 32
    +23
    Quote: Comrade
    The author either attended a kindergarten at that time, or did not live in Ukraine at that time.

    Comrade who lived in Ukraine! Don't exaggerate!
    The problem was not ...
    to still live like the Germans?
    , this question was then faced by the entire USSR, and not only by Ukraine. By the way, this desire still lives on and there is nothing wrong with it! Do you want to live better than yesterday? - Do you want to. This is normal.
    And if we talk about the referendum on the independence of Ukraine, then people took an example from Russia - the Declaration of Independence of the RSFSR was adopted by the First Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR 12 June 1990 year.
    A similar action in Ukraine took place a month later - the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine was adopted by the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR of the XII convocation 16 July 1990 year.
    After another 4 months:
    24 декабря 1990 года Deputies of the IV Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR, after holding a roll-call vote, decided to consider it necessary to preserve the USSR as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics, and at this referendum in March 1991 Ukraine gave 70,2%, and on the question of including Ukraine in the Union Soviet sovereign states replied in the affirmative 80,2% voted voters.
    1 декабря 1991 года a referendum on the state self-determination of the Russian Federation took place. This is how Russia voted

    In general, the expected 70,77% of the votes in favor were received in Russia.
    On the same day, the All-Ukrainian referendum took place on December 1, 1991: 90,32% "For".
    What do you reproach the population of Ukraine with? She voted in the same way as Russia.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • curio
    curio April 11 2021 12: 34
    +6
    ---- The author either went to kindergarten at that time, or did not live in Ukraine at that time.
    I don’t know as an author, but by that time I didn’t go to kindergarten but entered a military school and gave the oath on August 31, 1991 to a de facto non-existent state, and I completely agree with the Author.
    and I think the most important. the most important, so to speak, the father of all the other Maidans was in Moscow in August 1991 (defense of the White House) ... and all the other Maidans are his children ...
    And what about Ukraine .. I spent my childhood in a large military garrison on the Pacific coast. In the next house, in the same entrance, my two best friends, Oleg and Edik, lived and in my entrance there was a younger boy, Andryushka. I ask you to notice that all the fathers have officers and come from Ukraine.
    which of them thought playing Indians in the mid-80s that they would soon have to look at each other through a real sight.
    The one that Oleg is famous, a brave militia in the LPR (he was like that in childhood)
    The one that Edik is one of the commanders in the National Guard of Ukraine ... (the most interesting was written off in classmates literally before the Ukrainian events .. was pro-Russian and spoke well of our president, unlike theirs Yanukovych.)
    And Andrey was the least fortunate of all, and Chechnya and Ukraine fell to his lot ... he died near Alchevsk in January 2015. (helped his sister in organizing the transportation of the body across the border ... (thanks to I. Strelkov) ... otherwise someone war and someone is a mother ... the bastards on the mountain earned good money.
    WHAT I REMEMBERED ALL THIS FOR ... who will tell me after that that this is not our civil war and we are losing it ... and here I agree with the author ... that the return of Crimea ... all kinds of Ilovaisk boilers cannot compensate us for the loss of Ukraine ...
    Victoria Nuland is often remembered as she ran around the Maidan and handed out cookies ... then I have a question: where was our ambassador to Ukraine Zurabov (although how could he even be appointed to such an important direction ????). Where was Konstantin Zatulin chairman all possible Russian-Ukrainian friendships ??? ..... they drank champagne and ate black caviar for Gazprom's money and the whole problem boiled down to the problem of gas transit ..... and people? and what people ... on a platter ...
    And the enemies did not doze .... they worked off their salaries and invested money ... and in 30 years they raised a new generation ... which filled all sorts of sectors and basics ...
    know how ... bastards ...
    So thanks to the author ...
  • Svarog
    Svarog April 11 2021 14: 40
    +5
    The author either attended a kindergarten at that time, or did not live in Ukraine at that time.

    The author painted everything correctly .. You point to the ambitions of Ukraine .. but this is an information war, it was Khrushchev who began to promote it with his own hands, enlisting the support of the Ukrainian elite and actually forming it .. then more and the Ukrainians were literally hammered into their heads that they were feeding Russia .. at their own expense .. This is a banal betrayal, which laid the collapse of the USSR .. And then the ears of the United States must be sticking out for sure .. BUT this does not mean that we do not need Ukraine, and the author focused on this.
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 April 11 2021 18: 10
    -1
    Quote: Comrade
    The author either attended a kindergarten at that time, or did not live in Ukraine at that time.


    Mr. "comrade" is confusing something. The author is talking about the state of the Ukrainian SSR, and "comrade
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 April 11 2021 18: 48
      +1
      The author is not talking about the ability for independent existence for the state of the Ukrainian SSR, but "comrade" - about the ancient traditions of Russians and Ukrainians. These traditions are the same. Russians also always think that they were "shod". Yeltsin's main thesis was also "getting rid of the oppression of the republics of the USSR." Forgot ?
      This is a consequence of insufficient development and secret awareness of their cultural inferiority to the peoples of the West. THE AUTHOR PERSONS ABOUT THIS ONCE! About cultural squalor.

      Indeed, in the West it is inconceivable that in peacetime, YOUR COUNTRY SHOULD BE DOWN, 2 times give it into the hands of "EBN and K", whose actions even the State Duma commission in the 90s qualified as "having signs of treason." And this is instead of establishing fair order in the country! Country of "approbation" and "folk wisdom" like; "and for whom else? ....."

      Have you noticed that Russians never talk about establishing any kind of justice on their own? Shit on another Russian? Easy ..... But to defend justice together? Utopia. Not only in public, BUT even in private communication with each other. Talking about justice among Russians is not a decent thing, "naive, stupid", "not comme il faut"! AND IN FACT THIS IS A SHAME AND A SELF-RECOGNITION OF ITS OWN INTEGRITY. Almost according to Goebbels. Society of "peasants-truth-seekers" according to Nekrasov. For centuries, “they have been looking for the truth,” ready-made, just pick it from the bush, and they don’t find it, because it doesn’t grow on the bushes.
  • Cambustiologist
    Cambustiologist April 11 2021 19: 46
    +2
    The author did not understand one thing. This is not another people. These are Russians who live in a territory that has always belonged to Russians. Nobody understands or accepts this. Including the president. There is no country like Ukraine. Not . This is a project of Austria Hungary to weaken Russia. And when we understand this, when the leadership understands that Belarus is not a Russian country either, then we will win. Again . These are all Russian lands. There are no such peoples, there are Little Russians, Belarusians. And there is a common country for all. Russia.
  • Xnumx vis
    Xnumx vis April 11 2021 20: 56
    +1
    Quote: Comrade
    This was the main ambition of Ukraine, pasted on all the pillars and trees - to heal no worse than the Germans due to the fact that we will stop giving our products to other republics - read, Russia. They say, we will not give it to the Russians for free, but sell it to the same Europeans for currency, a fabulous life will come right away.
    And the majority gradually believed in it.

    And then in Ukraine they played a tug of power on ethnic grounds! Whose language is better, who is more worthy to be a citizen (already with a small letter!) Of Ukraine ... One - I will return the Russian language! Another only MOV will save our Ukraine .. One theme - Vote for me (Yushchenko, Yanukovych, Kuchma, Tymoshenko ...) By adopting bilingualism in Ukraine, they could make the history of Ukraine different ...
  • max702
    max702 April 11 2021 21: 24
    0
    There are no Ukrainians at all, for nothing, no matter how you need it ..
    Ukrainian = Russophobe, and all his activities and existence are solely to the detriment of Russia ..
    If you ate Russian, why do you call yourself Ukrainian? For what ? for what purpose? Why do you consider yourself not Russian?
    And this is only a small part of the questions ..
  • Qas
    Qas April 12 2021 03: 11
    -2
    It is Moscow's lordly attitude to the regions as to slaves that is one of the reasons that we have lost the Union. Moreover, even now one can hear from time to time: "Stop feeding Moscow!" from the regions. It means that there is something wrong with taxes, which are taken by the capital and then partially returned to the region back. And a lot more ...
  • Gosha Smirnov
    Gosha Smirnov April 12 2021 22: 03
    0
    So it really was, but you, hike, badly grasped the main message of the article
  • Victorio
    Victorio April 13 2021 10: 53
    0
    Quote: Comrade
    The Soviet Union was still alive, but already there were a lot of leaflets on the posts with statistics and comments... This is how much we produce / mine - from wheat to coal, from steel to diesel locomotives. And here's how much of the same is produced / mined in Germany.
    It turned out that Ukraine differed little from the FRG.

    ===
    that's right and full of leaflets, and Bandera dressed in uniform. even the Balts did not have this. As for the fact that we could / will live in / like Switzerland, this happened in any, probably, of the former republics, as well as in some regions of Russia similar things surfaced. a common technique for attracting attention when deciding one's own affairs
  • militarist63
    militarist63 April 15 2021 01: 15
    0
    Yeah ! That's exactly what it was! sad
  • LORD-72
    LORD-72 April 21 2021 01: 38
    0
    Essentially correct, but as a person who has lived in Ukraine for 31 years, I will clarify. Ukraine was compared not with Germany, but with France. And on the same leaflets it was written that Ukraine is the second France.
  • genezis6
    genezis6 April 21 2021 15: 14
    0
    Actually, it was so, and it was especially striking at the everyday level. Born and raised on the border, I saw it all until the mid-90s. Later, the truth of the rhetoric changed a lot, but this is a separate topic.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Anatoly 288
    Anatoly 288 April 11 2021 04: 55
    +6
    When a clear and intelligible policy appears, when it becomes clear what we want and where we are striving, then we will stop losing territory. When the authorities begin to make money, and not to rob and take away from the population ... And if you look at Turkey, what it is offering and doing, and what we are proposing and doing, to my deep regret we are losing on all counts. Ukraine, Central Asia ... power, wake up!
    1. apro
      apro April 11 2021 05: 34
      -5
      Quote: Anatoly 288
      power, wake up!

      Who are you addressing ??? and why is she sleeping?. She clearly performs the assigned tasks.
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan April 11 2021 14: 29
        -2
        What are the tasks - to fill your pockets?
    2. nickname7
      nickname7 April 11 2021 06: 12
      +1
      And if you look at Turkey

      Turkey is great in some things, but they have a drawback, they want to dominate, and this contradicts the various beys in which the khans will not give up sovereignty, play friendship and take money, they are not averse, but the matter does not move further.
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter April 11 2021 06: 44
      +4
      Quote: Anatoly 288
      When the government starts to make money, and not to rob and take away from the population ...

      This, never.
      1. depressant
        depressant April 11 2021 09: 59
        +3
        Dear Colleague Stoporez, you, like all of us, state an obvious fact. Above, answering apro, I noted that stating the obvious, accompanied by angry and contemptuous emotions, is exactly what we have been doing in recent years. And this is instead of joint efforts to develop a mechanism for influencing the unsuitable power, one that, within the framework of the legislation, allows it to be replaced with a suitable one.

        For my part, I propose what I suggested earlier, namely:
        replacing the multi-party system, which dilutes the electorate and party responsibility, with a two-party system, one in which each of the two parties fights for the highest political power in the country. In other words, for the opportunity to rule the country through its president, which becomes the leader of the party.
        As part of the upcoming elections to the State Duma, I propose: to exclude the percentage of passage - all these 5%, or some are there now, encouraging useless parasitic parties, and to allow only the two parties that won the largest number of votes in the elections to the Duma. Skip and charge the leaders of these parties to fight for the presidency in 2024, that is, to become political parties.
        I believe that this will dramatically improve our society's health, increasing the electoral interest, and will force both parties, each of which has the prospect of becoming the ruling party, to offer the people different sane political programs. Instead of twin programs that cover up the helplessness, deceit and hypocrisy of all our Duma parties en masse at the present moment.
        This alone will make not only all citizens participants in the political process, but two political parties will also become them - those that will replace the current one, humbly stamping laws repressive against the population.
        To whom do I address my demand? To the president and his entourage. In the hope of understanding - not me, but the situation. In the hope of their fear, which sooner or later will overtake them. I will not list why they are gripped by fear, everyone already knows. So let this fear come sooner rather than later. Nobody in Russia has yet left curses.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter April 11 2021 11: 23
          +7
          Quote: depressant
          For my part, I suggest that

          Greetings, dear Comrade, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi I know and understand your position, but I would suggest a more radical option, 1. to abolish the presidential post (president for Russia is an unconnected concept)
          2. to abolish the State Duma and the Federation Council, as well as administrations and municipalities, ugh
          3. to return the councils, the supreme council and its presidium.
          Immediately, the power will become controlled and the importance of the only person in a key position will disappear. good
          1. depressant
            depressant April 11 2021 12: 07
            +3
            Eh, dear Stop-cutter! ... If history could be turned back, yes, with our present knowledge ... But she left, History, forward, took off on a new circle of the spiral, which is created by the young. They, young, were given the opportunity to freely leave the country without bothering to alter it. Knowledgeable people have calculated that by 2010, 35 million people of the active, active population have left Russia forever. Our turn of the historical spiral is carried out only by those who have not found a way out of the country, or those who cannot imagine themselves outside of Russian civilization. And it is not a fact that the active ones who left the country would demand what you propose.
            I suppose, in the coordinates of our present existence, my proposals are more realistic, but this does not mean that they are realizable. In exactly the same way as the current coordinates of the spiral do not mean the feasibility of your proposals. Both mine and yours are utopia, the coordinates are too rigid for this, they were lined up and corrected imperceptibly for us, starting with Khrushchev. But still, I have a hope that the feasibility of my model of our society is not zero.
          2. Black lotos
            Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 01
            -1
            Quote: Stroporez
            but would suggest a more radical option,

            this is radical extremism lol
            wish that.
            (To plant for the fact that he has a function in his phone -Change mode)
            But who will kill the golden chicken of the entire system then?
    4. Overlock
      Overlock April 11 2021 12: 09
      +19
      Quote: Anatoly 288
      When a clear and coherent policy appears

      Will not appear. There are only old dogmas in the brain of the "Vanguard of the Party"
  • d ^ Amir
    d ^ Amir April 11 2021 04: 56
    +4
    at Divov O.I. in "Weapons of Retaliation" it is well written about the then Ukraine and the "union" republics ... so their desire to get rid of the then Moscow authorities far prevailed over common sense completely, and I myself have heard more than once about "enough to feed the Muscovites"
    1. apro
      apro April 11 2021 05: 32
      -6
      Quote: d ^ Amir
      so their desire to get rid of the then Moscow authorities away prevailed over common sense

      Like the Russian authorities, there was no clear position on the issue of relations with the newly formed republics.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 05: 40
        +7
        Quote: apro
        Like the Russian authorities, there was no clear position on the issue of relations with the newly formed republics.

        Wait, right now Belarus will be right and we will shout that these donkeys are themselves stupid people and golim Russophobes.
        1. apro
          apro April 11 2021 05: 43
          -10%
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          right now, we will also have Belarus

          While the Belarusians have Batka. This will not happen. But he is not eternal. And in the Kremlin they sleep and see how he shit.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 05: 47
            +4
            Quote: apro
            Until the Belarusians Batka. This will not happen.

            Yeah, but many young people respect a country called Russia? They don't give a damn about us. And rightly so.
            1. Konstantin Gogolev
              Konstantin Gogolev April 11 2021 06: 48
              +8
              I agree. Gradually, due to the natural change of generations (the elders die, the youth grows up), the average section of society will shift towards what we are now fixing. Indifference / not interesting - because interests are different. Sorry, but there will even be more homosexual stuff. Realizing this, it becomes disgusting at heart.
              1. Overlock
                Overlock April 11 2021 12: 12
                +24
                Quote: Konstantin Gogolev
                ... Gradually, due to the natural change of generations (the elders die, the youth grows up), the average section of society will shift towards what we are now fixing.

                Ukraine is counting on this, in 10 years the generation brought up or remembering the USSR will leave and "children of the ATO and Bandera" will come to vote
                1. Konstantin Gogolev
                  Konstantin Gogolev April 11 2021 12: 24
                  +1
                  We will also have a more "liberal society" in 10 years. Western ideology "enlightens" gradually. It sucks.
          2. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 10: 24
            +7
            What is happening now in Belarus is quite the work of Lukashenka. Although, of course, it is categorically wrong to blame him alone. As well as only Putin is responsible for what is happening in the Russian Federation. Both are essentially spokesmen for the interests of the ruling class. And the Belarusian oligarchs do not need competitors from the Russian Federation who will undoubtedly oust them when creating a union state. The petty bourgeoisie and the proletariat of Belarus also do not need this alliance. Therefore, it is high time to throw all these naive dreams of building a union state into a landfill.
            1. apro
              apro April 11 2021 11: 18
              -2
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Therefore, it is high time to throw all these naive dreams of building a union state into a landfill.

              Then why whine about the lost?
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 00
                -2
                The Ympertsev and other stupid patriots of Russia have phantom pains. laughing
        2. Overlock
          Overlock April 11 2021 12: 10
          +23
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          right now, we will also have Belarus

          already! Lukashenka drove 120 diesel fuel tanks to Ukraine, which went to ATO
        3. Black lotos
          Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 04
          -3
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Wait, right now Belarus will be right and we will shout that these donkeys are themselves stupid people and golim Russophobes.

          I advise you to read the topics on VO during the events in the Republic of Belarus. During protests and others.
          Emotional incontinence after wrong actions. A simple explanation is to name the culprit in the event of others, but not yourself.
    2. Avior
      Avior April 11 2021 07: 56
      +7
      Do you yourself remember those times?
      The Russian authorities' desire to get rid of the Allies was no less than the others. The RSFSR was one of the first to adopt the declaration of sovereignty, most of it later reached out.
      While the Balts and Georgia and Azerbaijan declared sovereignty, no one took it seriously - the situation changed after June 1990, when the decision on sovereignty was adopted by Yeltsin - in fact, this was one of the first real steps towards the collapse of the Union.
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 10: 32
        +8
        Yes, everywhere then all these conversations were about "enough to feed" and "without the damned scoop we will panic". Well, in principle, yes zapanovali 10 percent of the population of the former USSR. And the rest, who naively believed in the justice of the capitalist system, naturally did not get a damn thing.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 10: 50
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        The Russian authorities' desire to get rid of the Allies was no less than the others. The RSFSR was one of the first to adopt the declaration of sovereignty, most of it later reached out.

        Just about, and the mood in society corresponded. We are on our own, and the rest went to three funny letters. Let's separate from everyone and live! Army nafig is not needed, we have no enemies, leave the border troops and the Strategic Missile Forces on every fireman, and wake up. Chamber number six ...
  • Cottodraton
    Cottodraton April 11 2021 05: 00
    +4
    Stop imposing mythical losses on us. After the 90s, we are different countries. Everything.
    If they wanted, they would not have lost these very bonds. They went into Russophobia voluntarily and with a squeal. They are not autistic people requiring supervision, but adults. It is not our fault that they fell under the United States and Bandera, voluntarily and joyfully at the same time "lowering their trousers." This is their deliberate choice. And running around, trying to get them back is the same as trying to get your wife back, who left to the left. This is deerism. It has long been clear that there was no "bratsy lubvi" there, they used us like a wallet.
    They found (thought they found) a fatter wallet - they sent us publicly. "Love of convenience" is called it. And here is the question - do we need it? What kind of "civilization" will you build with cheap stuff? A little something wrong and they will start rebelling again. They have no common values ​​with us and it is time to admit it.
    Include archived videos from 13-14 years and everything will become clear.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 05: 32
      +4
      Quote: Cottodraton
      After the 90s, we are different countries. Everything.

      Is Chechnya better than Ukraine?
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 April 11 2021 05: 51
        -5
        What is common in an independent state and a republic within the Russian Federation?))) What analogies do you have ... strange ... by definition, Chechnya is Russia. Ukraine is not.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 05: 56
          +1
          Quote: carstorm 11
          What is common in an independent state and a republic within the Russian Federation?))) What analogies do you have ... strange ...

          Strange? So they wanted to secede with might and main, and Borya did not seem to mind. "Take as much sovereignty as you want!" And as they began to take sovereignty and shut up the transit of oil at world prices, it suddenly turned out that it was necessary to establish constitutional order there.
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 April 11 2021 10: 35
            -3
            There, oil is the very last reason.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 11: 21
              +2
              Quote: carstorm 11
              There, oil is the very last reason.

              State your reason.
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 April 11 2021 11: 30
                -2
                Wahhabism.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  Wahhabism.

                  Oho-ho .. Pasha Mercedes handed over weapons to the Wahhabis?
        2. Gardamir
          Gardamir April 11 2021 08: 27
          +9
          Chechnya is Russia. Ukraine is not.
          And Khabarovsk is China. Feel free to scatter the Russian lands. Ukraine is part of Russia,
          1. ccsr
            ccsr April 11 2021 09: 58
            +7
            Quote: Gardamir
            Feel free to scatter the Russian lands. Ukraine is part of Russia,

            You think so, but the citizens of Ukraine in the overwhelming majority consider us to be aggressors, even those who are ethnic Russians by nationality. Do you personally have close friends who live in Ukraine and consider it a part of Russia?
            1. Fan-fan
              Fan-fan April 11 2021 14: 41
              -3
              I have friends from Ukraine. So they do not consider ordinary Russian people to be enemies. They only regard our rulers as their enemies, by the way, as enemies of the Russian people.
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 53
                -1
                that's their business. I personally consider this country my enemy. And ordinary people themselves choose clowns and confectioners who pull them into the war. and the flag in their hands means. People are a continuation of the policy of the state.
              2. Dart2027
                Dart2027 April 11 2021 14: 58
                +1
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                They only consider our rulers their enemies

                Hitler said roughly the same thing.
              3. ccsr
                ccsr April 11 2021 16: 47
                +3
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                I have friends from Ukraine. So they do not consider ordinary Russian people to be enemies. They only regard our rulers as their enemies, by the way, as enemies of the Russian people.

                Also, tell me that it is Putin who makes them fire on the residents of Donbass - I am directly imbued with their grief, they kill the Russian people and sob that it was Putin who made the Ukrainians do.

                Quote: carstorm 11
                that's their business. I personally consider this country my enemy. And ordinary people themselves choose clowns and confectioners who pull them into the war. and the flag in their hands means. People are a continuation of the policy of the state.

                And here some authors want to live according to the principle - "And yours and ours, and with singing and dancing", and draw us "brothers" of Ukrainians, as if someone is forcing them to kill civilians in the Donbass. Although it is clear that this is a hostile country to us, and we should only treat it this way, even if you have relatives and friends there.

                Quote: Dart2027
                Hitler said roughly the same thing.

                So they already openly admit that Hitler brought them freedom from the Bolsheviks and Russians. So they are the direct heirs of the ideas of the fascists, and they no longer hide this even at the official level, recognizing the accomplices of the fascists as heroes.
          2. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 April 11 2021 10: 33
            -3
            Where am I and what have I scattered about?) Do you have your own map of the Russian Federation or what? And for that matter, there are more of the same Uzbeks in Khabarovsk than Chinese
          3. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 31
            +4
            Quote: Gardamir
            And Khabarovsk is China.

            No matter how 30 years later it did not work out. Even somehow Putin's breakthroughs in no way change the shitty demographic situation and the outflow of the population from the eastern regions of the Russian Federation does not stop. And here it’s not even a matter of ethnic Chinese who will come and seize the Far East and the seaside. And stupidly, the further the more the shitty economic situation and the complete failure in the social policy of the authorities will stimulate separatist sentiments.
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 55
              0
              The Chinese from the north also migrate to the south. Millions annually. China introduces a bunch of programs to avoid this and it does not help. There are already a bunch of empty new buildings in which there is no one to live.
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 16: 05
                0
                And what do you mean by that? I’m kind of aware that there is internal migration in China and that urbanization there is at a rapid pace.
                1. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 April 11 2021 23: 01
                  -3
                  Poke your wife. Traveling to the city is no longer migration. This is an escape. Urbarization goes without saying. But all the Aitians whom I know are going to the south for the same reason that ours are leaving from the Far East. More precisely the reasons. Starting with the climate and ending with salaries. who will they fill our cities with?) Clones?)
                  1. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 00: 45
                    +2
                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    Traveling to the city is no longer migration. This is an escape.

                    So be it. So what? I didn’t seem to say that the Chinese would populate these territories right before lunch tomorrow. I didn’t say at all that they would populate them en masse. And with regards to empty settlements, we have enough of them as well. And the people are quite running. And I moved to one of those metropolitan areas a long time ago. And those who stayed in twenty years will be happy to sell their homes at the lowest price and leave. But no one will need it nafig like they themselves. Over the past 10 years of jerks without swinging in my np, my work has become much worse, with social services, in principle, it was shitty before, now it's a complete optimization tryndet. The people are fleeing and dying out while quasi-patriots talk about great advances. The point is that China is stronger than us both economically, demographically and organizationally. Yes, while their scientific and engineering school is not very good, but once upon a time everything was bad with us in this regard. And it is not at all necessary that China will capture the Far East. This is just one of the likely scenarios. He may also turn into radiation ash tomorrow with all his dreams and ambitions. But the fact is that the Far East is rich in resources and if there is a chance one way or another to get its hands on it, China will definitely do it, as well as Japan on occasion. And North and South Korea. And in general, all and sundry and it is not at all necessary to populate it. You didn’t seem to notice, but I did notice that at the rallies for the wagon and all the good awesome number of people went not with the flags of the Russian Federation, but with the regional ones. So think about this wonderful fact.
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 April 12 2021 02: 43
                      -3
                      This is a war scenario. Given the density of China's population, it is also very scary. There is certainly a possibility of creeping settlement, but the point is that 10 years ago I met Chinese every day. And now I don't even remember when I last saw them.
                      1. IS-80_RVGK2
                        IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 08: 26
                        +2
                        Do you even read what I write? How many times can I say the same thing? I am not saying that there will be a mandatory mass settlement of the Far East by the Chinese. Although this option cannot be ruled out. I am talking about the possible falling away of the Far East as a result of the same separatist sentiments. But the options may be different. Who and how will control this territory tomorrow if there is practically no one left there? Will our economy and mob potential with our shitty demographics be enough to go to war tomorrow with those who need our resources more than us? Just don't talk about RVSN. Nobody will shoot nuclear missiles. If it is possible to avoid a difficult, costly, economically unprofitable war for our capital, stupidly giving a piece of territory in one form or another under the control of the country that presented the ultimatum, our quasipatriots will do it for themselves. All this talk about smokers then will seem simply ridiculous.
        3. The comment was deleted.
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 April 11 2021 11: 28
            -4
            We're talking about now. Where Ukraine is an independent dump. And Chechnya is a subject of the Russian Federation
        4. sevryuk
          sevryuk April 11 2021 11: 34
          +2

          What is common in an independent state and a republic within the Russian Federation?))) What analogies do you have ... strange ... by definition, Chechnya is Russia. Ukraine is not.


          Some criteria you have are strange - Slobodskaya Ukraine, which in the 15th century was part of the Muscovy (being peacefully developed by the edge of the Wild Field), is "by definition" part of an independent state, and Chechnya, which became part of the Republic of Ingushetia in the last a quarter of the 19th century as a result of a brutal colonial war - part of the Russian Federation. By Whose Definition?
        5. Overlock
          Overlock April 11 2021 12: 14
          +19
          Quote: carstorm 11
          the definition of Chechnya is Russia. Ukraine is not.

          I liked about Chechnya laughing
          "Chechen authorities set about searching for war veterans"
          https://lenta.ru/articles/2011/06/21/dossier/
      2. ccsr
        ccsr April 11 2021 09: 55
        -2
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Is Chechnya better than Ukraine?

        In the current situation, Chechnya is not our enemy, unlike Ukraine. And then it will be even worse in relations with Ukraine, as soon as the Svidomo try to conquer the Donbass.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 10: 54
          +4
          Quote: ccsr
          In the current situation, Chechnya is not our enemy, unlike Ukraine.

          That’s why I’m looking at how crowds of Russians go to ski resorts to visit Chechnya.
        2. Overlock
          Overlock April 11 2021 12: 20
          +24
          Quote: ccsr
          In the current situation, Chechnya is not our enemy, unlike Ukraine.

          So far ... At 1st place in terms of subsidies from the federal budget. Stop containment and see ...
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 April 11 2021 12: 31
            -6
            Stop funding any region and see. Do you want to get a hotbed of terror out of greed again? Yes. They are given a lot of things. But this is the price for peace. And it is fully justified.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 16
              +4
              Quote: carstorm 11
              But this is the price for peace.

              Buying the world for real money? Dubious acquisition, to put it bluntly. They fought there for 200 years, for what? To break through a corridor to Georgia at the request of the Georgian king and queen? Fuck them ... The blood of the Russian people is not worth it.
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 40
                -1
                This is not a new approach. There have been so many where throughout history. Loyalty is sometimes bought and there is nothing like that. Whether it is worth it or not is not for us to decide
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 43
                  0
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  it's not up to us to decide

                  Why exactly? Why can't I give an assessment to the rulers? Why is it not for me to decide?
                  1. carstorm 11
                    carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 47
                    +2
                    Evaluation is up to you. Someone forbade you to do this?) And decisions are made by those who at least have more information than is available to us.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 14: 49
                      0
                      Quote: carstorm 11
                      Someone forbade you to do this?)

                      Quote: carstorm 11
                      Whether it is worth it or not is not for us to decide

                      These are your words.
                      1. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 59
                        +1
                        How does one mutually exclude the other? ) assessment and decision making are like different things)
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 04
                        0
                        Quote: carstorm 11
                        How does one mutually exclude the other? ) assessment and decision making are like different things)

                        Are you into philosophy? I pass it without me.
                      3. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 April 11 2021 15: 09
                        +2
                        philosophy, then what has it to do with?)))) each term has its own definite meaning, that's all)))
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 36
                  0
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  And decisions are made by those who at least have more information than is available to us.

                  Decisions are made by those who have the right to make decisions, and not at all from the abundance of information.
                  1. carstorm 11
                    carstorm 11 April 11 2021 22: 57
                    -2
                    To make decisions you need to have it)))
        3. Overlock
          Overlock April 11 2021 13: 23
          +23
          Quote: carstorm 11
          Stop funding any region and see.

          Do not carry a blizzard! Compare super-subsidies to Chechnya and the Kostroma region
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 42
            -1
            was there a war in the Kostroma region? Maybe there were soldiers killed in two companies? These are things of different levels.
          2. ccsr
            ccsr April 11 2021 16: 28
            +1
            Quote: Overlock
            Do not carry a blizzard! Compare super-subsidies to Chechnya and the Kostroma region

            And Shaimiev do not want to remember how the center subsidized him to Tatarstan, and gave them such rights that the residents of the Kostroma region never dreamed of. So you consider their privileges justified, but Chechnya is a completely different matter for you. Although I am not a supporter of subsidizing the North Caucasus, but since it does not work out any other way NOW, this is the only correct decision, because the war will cost us more.
        4. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 39
          +4
          Justified what? Sponsoring individual clans from the federal budget? So it is ultimately when the flow of money dries up will lead to very sad consequences. Do you want it like in Ukraine?
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 April 11 2021 14: 41
            +2
            Do you have any other options? Would you like to share?
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 16: 07
              0
              Why do you need other options? Everything suits you. And after you, even a deluge.
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 April 11 2021 22: 56
                -3
                Very reasoned and reveals the essence) you do not take too much on yourself to decide what I think about?)
                1. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 00: 52
                  +1
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  Very reasoned and reveals the essence) you do not take too much on yourself to decide what I think about?)

                  So why do you need any argumentation options and other disclosure of the essence? What will it change? Never mind. It is useless to try to convince you. You are from that category of people who prefer not to notice anything while they feel good. And I do not take on myself much, but just as much as I can carry. Judging by your comments, you are most likely that kind of person.
                  1. carstorm 11
                    carstorm 11 April 12 2021 02: 35
                    -4
                    strange ... but it seems like an adult ... the level of interlocutors has certainly fallen below the baseboard ... you do not know me, or I think about anything. Moreover, unlike you, as you can see, I don't think for you, but just share my opinion. If you do not like it, then this is your own business.
                  2. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 07: 52
                    +2
                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    the level of interlocutors fell, of course, below the plinth.

                    As I understand you. I read your protective comments and I am sad. If earlier the guardian was at least single-celled, now it is generally something like protoplasm.
                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    Moreover, unlike you, as you can see, I don't think for you

                    You don’t think at all, as I noticed.
                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    If you do not like it, then this is your own business.

                    If only mine, it would be just wonderful. But you are broadcasting this demagogy of yours into society by fooling people.
      3. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter April 11 2021 14: 53
        +4
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Do you want to get a hotbed of terror out of greed again? Yes. They are given a lot of things. But this is the price for peace. And it is fully justified.

        What you are describing is called CONTRIBUTION!
        Open the wiki and read
        "Contribution - payments imposed on the losing state in favor of the victorious state. During the war, it is paid by the population of the occupied territory, at the end of the war - by the government of the defeated country, and can be called military indemnity in the literature."
        PySy. Yesterday I asked a numbered vadyusha, and today I want to ask you, do you write for money? From another country? From honey. institutions?
        Why the hell are you trying to kick adults into some kind of fantasy propaganda crap, if we all live in the same country and see everything with our own eyes ?! am
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 April 11 2021 15: 03
          -1
          Do not start this infantile nonsense) write for money blah blah blah. Well, take the funding away from them. What's next? If you have the same contribution and restraint, then you should teach a little history.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 39
            0
            Quote: carstorm 11
            Well, take the funding away from them. What's next?

            And then the polar fox will come.
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 April 11 2021 22: 54
              -1
              Exactly. And our guys will go there again to die in thousands.
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 11 2021 16: 03
            +2
            Quote: carstorm 11
            Do not start this infantile nonsense) write for money blah blah blah. Well, take the funding away from them. What's next? If you have the same contribution and restraint, then you should teach a little history.

            Ha, darling, where you studied, I already taught! Why do people like you, as soon as you press against the wall with arguments, immediately start wagging the stern?
            Quote: carstorm 11
            If you have the same contribution and restraint, then you should teach a little history.

            This is a masterpiece!
            How old are you, troll-voasya? laughing
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 April 11 2021 22: 53
              -1
              Firstly, you do not need to be rude and poke your drinking companions. Secondly, you have no arguments. You interpret facts to suit your beliefs. If for you the indemnity is what they pay to the region of the country, then apparently this is no longer being treated. A new word in politics)
      4. ccsr
        ccsr April 11 2021 16: 23
        -1
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Stop funding any region and see. Do you want to get a hotbed of terror out of greed again? Yes. They are given a lot of things. But this is the price for peace. And it is fully justified.

        Mature people understand this, and the bawlers will always yell that we are feeding them, but for some reason they do not remember the military police detachment in Syria, as well as who served there.
      5. Black lotos
        Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 10
        -2
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Stop funding any region and see. Do you want to get a hotbed of terror out of greed again? Yes. They are given a lot of things. But this is the price for peace. And it is fully justified.

        and what is the point then of the dispute between Chechnya / Ukraine ..
        Allies / satellites are always supported politically / economically / culturally.
        In addition, the balance of trade with Ukraine has always been in favor of the Russian Federation. And the market is large, and there are at least obstacles to expansion on it. There were much more earnings there than in Chechnya.
  • Cottodraton
    Cottodraton April 11 2021 11: 40
    -2
    And Chechnya was not the USSR
  • Stas157
    Stas157 April 11 2021 07: 50
    +4
    Quote: Cottodraton
    Stop imposing mythical losses on us. After the 90s we are different countries. Everything.

    Did you have any history until the 90s? Nobody imposes anything on you.

    Ukraine is Russia. And the people there, they are the same Russians. In Russia itself, the peoples differ to a much greater extent than the indigenous Russian people with the Little Russians.

    Without Ukraine, Russia does not have enough mass for technological development, the domestic market is too small. Recent history is far from brilliant confirmation of this.
    1. Cottodraton
      Cottodraton April 11 2021 11: 45
      0
      So what? Well there was, well, they sent us. Like a cheap girl! And now what? Run to mumble at them, ask for an apology? Or give another 100 billion dollars? We have enough of everything, and in the 90s I did not see any help from them in technological development ... they were just as happy to ruin it as we did.
      There is nothing. They themselves are to blame for everything.
      Nobody should wipe their ass.
      If you consider yourself guilty, it's good, but don't drag me and millions of others here. Found an idea here for blm2.0 ...
  • Unknown
    Unknown April 11 2021 11: 51
    +8
    Quote: Cottodraton
    Stop imposing mythical losses on us. After the 90s, we are different countries. Everything.
    If they wanted, they would not have lost these very bonds. They went into Russophobia voluntarily and with a squeal. They are not autistic people requiring supervision, but adults.

    Speak mythical losses. I'll tell you what, such statements personally just infuriate me. Russophobia does not appear by itself; it is diligently cultivated, watered and fertilized with negative examples from Russian life. As a former resident of one of the Baltic republics, I know what I'm talking about. Yes, 70-80 percent then wanted independence and other happiness in the family of European nations. But who didn’t want to?
    Quote: Cottodraton
    This is their deliberate choice. And running around, trying to get them back is the same as trying to get your wife back, who left to the left. This is deerism. It has long been clear that there was no "bratsy lubvi" there, they used us like a wallet.

    Comparison with an unfaithful wife does not fit. And the fact that in the former republics of the Union there are more than 18 million people who consider themselves Russian, how to look at it? There was a large labor migration in the USSR, and people were leaving all over the country. Yes, they were looking for better jobs, salaries and, of course, affordable housing. I do not see anything bad in this, the country was one. In the 90s, when the RFSSR declared its sovereignty, leaving the Russians in the former republics in one fell swoop, even blaming them, they say they were to blame, there was no need to leave. And this is called national policy? Rather, national betrayal, better suited. And nothing that those who are now there, the Russian-speakers call, have built everything, or almost everything, have housing, buried their loved ones, and do not want to move anywhere, because they have lived there all their lives. Yes, the same Europe tore and threw in the place of the Russian Federation.
    Quote: Cottodraton
    "Love of convenience" is called it. And here is the question - do we need it? What kind of "civilization" will you build with cheap stuff? A little something wrong and they will start rebelling again. They have no common values ​​with us and it is time to admit it.

    About common values, depending on which side you look at. RI or the USSR, as you like, over the centuries paid too high a price, measured in human lives, for those territories that it lost in 1991, in order to abandon them like that idiotically. But we have helmsmen ... that everyone wasted. To me, who still considers himself a citizen of the USSR, since he was born and lived in it for good years, all this is sad. How was that ...
  • apro
    apro April 11 2021 05: 30
    -9
    Why did they lose ... this is not a loss, but a conscious choice. Refusal from Soviet attitudes in society towards national capitalistic. After 1991, they began to cheerfully digest the legacy of the great USSR. Destroying a single economy and breaking technological ties. But not forgetting to establish customs. And appoint their own prices.
    I don’t think that anyone is to blame for this concrete. This is a general decision, the days of independence were both among the Russians and among the Ukrainians, and all with universal approval.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan April 11 2021 14: 53
      -3
      I don’t think that anyone is to blame for this. This is a general decision
      You cleverly determined that everyone is guilty the same way. I ask, what is the fault of a simple miner, teacher, nurse, turner, etc.? Maybe it was that they did not organize themselves, did not arm themselves and did not go into battle for the USSR? But this is not their duty, this is the duty of the security forces. So the fault lies with the country's leadership, the leadership of the army, the KGB and other services.
      1. apro
        apro April 11 2021 15: 08
        -2
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        I don’t think that anyone is to blame for this. This is a general decision
        You cleverly determined that everyone is guilty the same way. I ask, what is the fault of a simple miner, teacher, nurse, turner, etc.? Maybe it was that they did not organize themselves, did not arm themselves and did not go into battle for the USSR? But this is not their duty, this is the duty of the security forces. So the fault lies with the country's leadership, the leadership of the army, the KGB and other services.

        It is their duty as a citizen. To defend their homeland.
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets April 11 2021 05: 50
    +5
    Independent Ukraine will ALWAYS be hostile to us because otherwise it should not exist at all. So either part of the Russian Federation or the enemy. There is no third.
    It's time to learn this already.
    1. Konstantin Gogolev
      Konstantin Gogolev April 11 2021 07: 20
      -3
      It's time to generalize and take it for granted - Ukraine cannot be independent. And I don't think that the current state is preferable for the majority of the population. But the elites decide. And in order for the residents of Thunder to be quieter - the asset is working - all these "pans", and as a separate controller of compliance with the "correctness of the actions and words of the Thunder" - the Nazis.
      1. Konstantin Gogolev
        Konstantin Gogolev April 11 2021 10: 39
        +5
        And what is the reason for minus signs? Ukraine has:
        the elite, united only by hatred of Russia and Russia, and promoting a new story about the influence of the Soviet period on Ukraine, including;
        the Nazis, "sitting at the feeding" and watching over the observance of this hatred;
        "Maidan people" broadcasting this hatred;
        and the majority, which sees that all this is complete crap (including purely economically), but they cannot change anything in the installed system, because they are, so to speak, "not active in the Maidan."
        And don't forget the direct patronage of the Hegemon.
        What? Isn't that so?
    2. silverura
      silverura April 11 2021 07: 36
      +4
      So either part of the Russian Federation or the enemy.

      This is a vivid slogan of interethnic strife, which was caused by the consequences of what is being discussed in the topic. Imagine an ultimatum from the United States to Canada - Either you are our part, really the enemy. So after all, in civilized countries, other priorities are - the standard of living and not a primitive "stall", without approval in the form of a strong economy, technology, developed infrastructure and longevity of the population's life - in the whole of the Human Development Index.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 April 11 2021 08: 51
        +1
        Quote: silverura
        So after all, in civilized countries, there are other priorities

        The bombing of Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, etc.?
      2. Sahalinets
        Sahalinets April 11 2021 11: 05
        -2
        I already wrote about this once, so I'll just leave a link to my article.
        https://topwar.ru/178277-kak-poterjat-to-chego-my-nikogda-ne-imeli.html
      3. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 12: 43
        +1
        Come on, you won't tell us about a civilized country. There is more than enough of their own shit. Although of course your opponent is also wrong.
      4. Black lotos
        Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 18
        -2
        Quote: silverura
        Imagine an ultimatum from the United States to Canada - Either you are our part, really the enemy.

        they had wars in the history (the Canadians even took Washington) and even now the relationship is interesting. And he is from Canada ... in general, a reason for jokes for Americans. But the relationship is strong and built on both calculation and good neighborliness. Their border was very similar to the Ukrainian-Russian border before 2014. They try to resolve all territorial differences in an economic manner. No power pressure.
        And by the way, they also fought together, died, won two world wars.
        So an excellent example. True, a small flaw - countries are separated from others. In Europe, the interaction of neighboring countries is stronger.
      5. Icarus
        Icarus April 11 2021 21: 04
        +1
        This is a vivid slogan of interethnic strife, which was caused by the consequences of what is being discussed in the topic. Imagine an ultimatum from the United States to Canada - Either you are our part, really the enemy. So after all, in civilized countries, other priorities are - the standard of living and not a primitive "stall", without approval in the form of a strong economy, technology, developed infrastructure and longevity of the population's life - in the whole of the Human Development Index.

        You are missing a nuance: there is no Nazi or anti-American propaganda in Canada. The Merikatos state is not declared in Canada, at the highest (doctrinal) level, an enemy or aggressor. Otherwise, I think, the question of Canada's statehood in "civilized countries" would not have stood for long, without any ultimatums.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 April 11 2021 05: 54
    +9
    “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go to your goal, you have to go with everyone.” - African proverb. Frankly, many countries have fallen under American influence. The whole question is who managed to preserve the national state Turkey began modernization in the late 60s. China in the 70s. We are in the 90s. But nowhere has optimization been done with the destruction of everyone and everything like ours. The mentality is destroyed. All unity lies in television flash mobs. Why Turkey, having passed the same path, can build our icebreaker at its shipyard. Simply because it is cheaper for us. And why is it cheaper, no one wants to delve into this issue. Why did we lose Ukraine? There are many dreamers among the Slavs. And everyone has different dreams. There was a congestion on the Suez Canal, and now there are projects of different stripes. Only it never occurs to anyone from where we will get money for these projects. China will help. It gives money to that , from whom he is going to get something. And in no case is it included in his plans to get an economically powerful neighbor.
  • silverura
    silverura April 11 2021 06: 38
    +3
    Why Ukraine was lost

    Everything is trite and simple!
    1. The corruption of the management system from the bottom up to the highest shapes of power, from state enterprises to private enterprises. Moreover, the entire model, as a "sample", came from the Russian Federation.
    2. Speculations on historical topics - minorities, Bandera, parasites and others, which is offensively perceived by the population of Ukraine, especially in the Western regions.
    3. Unwillingness to carry out reforms and raise the standard of living of the population, while relying on lobbied managers with a vague past and an inadequate vision of the future. As an example - "Flirting with the Association".
    1. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 12: 53
      +4
      Quote: silverura
      The corruption of the management system from the bottom up to the highest shades of power, from state-owned enterprises to private enterprises. At the same time, the entire model, as a "sample", came from the Russian Federation.

      Come on, you won't whistle. So cheerfully plunder the country as you do in Ukraine, you still need to look. You will give Russia a hundred points head start. From an industrial power in a matter of decades to the country of Seluk and guest workers. And all you have is someone else's fault.
      Quote: silverura
      Speculations on historical topics - minority fraternity, Bandera, parasites and others, which are offensively perceived by the population of Ukraine, especially in the Western regions.

      And the nationalist show off velikoukrov, among whom now Bandera like cockroaches, apparently this is so little thing and is not considered?
      Quote: silverura
      Unwillingness to carry out reforms and raise the standard of living of the population, while relying on lobbied managers with a vague past and an inadequate vision of the future. As an example - "Flirting with the Association".

      How did you want? This is capitalism. Moreover, it is peripheral. 10 percent live well, and the rest live well. Well, you drove Yanukovych away, Poroshenko came, then Zelensky. Have you got it? Or need to wait another 300 years and even then?
  • ism_ek
    ism_ek April 11 2021 06: 56
    +1
    You need to dig deeper. Ukraine and Belarus are the heirs of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (not on the way with modern Lithuania). The split took place even then.
    Let's remember that for the annexation of Little Russia, for example, a church reform was initiated in Russia and millions of schismatics fled or were executed
    Then there was 1917, when Ukraine under Kerensky actually gained independence. Only the Red Terror, which we now remember, helped bring her back.
    The author did not understand at all what he was writing about.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 07: 11
      +4
      Quote: ism_ek
      Let's remember that for the annexation of Little Russia, for example, a church reform was initiated in Russia and millions of schismatics fled or were executed

      Let's remember that after the referendum on independence, the DPR asked to be part of Russia. It was not so long ago that it was, seven years have not passed. Why did they refuse? Why, after the announcement of Novorossiya, a Kremlin watchman quickly galloped to Zakharchenko and demanded to make up everything back?
    2. ccsr
      ccsr April 11 2021 10: 04
      +3
      Quote: ism_ek
      Let's remember

      Let's remember that Kiev is the mother of Russian cities, and not a single historical evidence of the existence of the Ukrainian language existed before the 19th century. What makes you think that it was the principality of Lithuania that somehow determined the life of Russian people on the territory of modern Ukraine?
      Quote: ism_ek
      Then there was 1917, when Ukraine under Kerensky actually gained independence.

      In general, from the point of view of history, this episode is only a minor upheaval in the era of turmoil.

      Quote: ism_ek
      The author did not understand at all what he was writing about.

      Here I agree with these - the author seems to suffer from myopia when assessing the events that have taken place in our history for the last four hundred years.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick April 11 2021 10: 27
        +1
        Until the 41st Kiev was a Russian city, according to the 1926 census in Kiev there were 25,4% of Ukrainians, 36,2% of Russians, 32,1% of Jews, 3% of Poles and 3,3% of others.
        Yes, there was the 17th, then the 18th, there were Skoropadsky with the Germans, when the Germans left, and Skoropadsky with them, came Petliura with his heightened national feeling, and with him his Selyuk army. The main thing that Petliura's people were doing was removing signs from shops and institutions in Russian, and there were no others in Kiev and whipping for talking in Russian, it infuriated them, because they did not know Russian at all. Boris Shklovsky, this is the one that Shpolyansky in the "White Guard", talked about the joke of the people of Kiev, they scoffed at the small vocabulary of the Ukrainian language. Kievans came up with such a phrase "Samoper poured into the painting "... Translated into normal language, this is - the car drove to a photographic salon. All this is funny ... if it weren't sad. Nationalism in the brain is for a long time ...
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 11: 04
        +1
        Quote: ccsr
        What makes you think that it was the principality of Lithuania that somehow determined the life of Russian people on the territory of modern Ukraine?

        Did I really write something about the principality of Lithuania? If it comes to that, the Tatarva determined the life of the Russian people much more, and Sashka Nevsky, appointed by the second channel "The Name of Russia", went from them to the label to reign and begged.
      3. Black lotos
        Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 31
        -4
        Quote: ccsr
        and not a single historical evidence of the existence of the Ukrainian language existed before the 19th century

        come on. Here is Kotlyarevsky and a comparison.

        "Aeneid" had an application "Dictionary of Little Russian Words", which was a glossary of Ukrainian words (more than 1000 words), which also contained the correct spelling according to the phonetic variant of spelling
        Kulish's works are also in the subject. And there were many.
        And before the 19th century and after ..
        as far as he saw the inauguration, the president puts his hand on the Peresopnytsia Evangelia - a manuscript monument of XNUMXth century art, written in one of the variants of the Western Russian language / Old Ukrainian (it all depends on which Wiki, Russian or Ukrainian)
        1. ccsr
          ccsr April 11 2021 18: 03
          +1
          Quote: Black Lotos
          come on. Here is Kotlyarevsky and a comparison.

          And where is the "Ukrainian language" indicated there, if it is directly written "Little Russian language, revised"?
          Quote: Black Lotos
          "Aeneid" had an application "Dictionary of Little Russian Words", which was a glossary of Ukrainian words (more than 1000 words),

          This is how you decided to call the Little Russian dialect of the Russian language "Ukrainian language", attributing to it the status of a language only on the basis of 1000 words taken from nowhere, and at the same time modestly kept silent that the modern Russian language is 150 words?
          Maybe you shouldn't use thimble techniques when talking about the "great Ukrainian language"?
          By the way, why didn't Kotlyarevsky write "Ukrainian" on the title page? I think that it was just that there was no such thing in Russia at that time and there was no such name.
          Quote: Black Lotos
          the president puts his hand on the Peresopnytsia Evangelia - a manuscript monument of art of the XNUMXth century, written in one of the variants of the Western Russian language / Old Ukrainian (it all depends on which Wiki, Russian or Ukrainian)

          Your lie about the old Ukrainian language does not find documentary confirmation, because this Gospel is written according to your own words in the Western Russian language. And the fact that you dodging equated it to the mythical "Ukrainian language", which did not exist in the 16th century, only a consequence of Ukrainian propaganda, because the Black Sea could only be dug by Ukrainians, communicating in mov.
          1. Black lotos
            Black lotos April 11 2021 23: 36
            -6
            Quote: ccsr
            Little Russian dialect of the Russian language

            it all depends on the point of view. Someone has a dialect, someone has a language.
            The languages ​​are essentially close.
            Quote: ccsr
            Your lie about the old Ukrainian language does not find documentary confirmation, because this Gospel is written according to your own words in the Western Russian language

            not according to my Wikipedia. And I specifically pointed out that depending on the point of view (Russian or Ukrainian Wiki), it can be Western Russian or Old Ukrainian.
            By the way, the book is in Kiev. A valuable thing. And there is neither Russian nor Ukrainian. And this is just my opinion.
            Your opinion is clear to me, there is no Ukrainian, everything is invented. For me, such a discussion is lousy. There is neither Russian nor Ukrainian in history. But you can assign anything you want.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr April 12 2021 08: 48
              +1
              Quote: Black Lotos
              it all depends on the point of view. Someone has a dialect, someone has a language.

              The scientific definition of language and dialect does not depend on the point of view - these are basic concepts, and cannot be interpreted as you want.
              Quote: Black Lotos
              Your opinion is clear to me, there is no Ukrainian, everything is invented.

              The Ukrainian language is an invention of the 19th century, because the Little Russian language is just a dialect of the Russian language and, according to science, it is just a VARIETY of the Russian language:
              Dialect is a type of language that is used as a means of communication between people connected by one territory. A dialect is a full-fledged system of verbal communication (oral or sign, but not necessarily written) ...
              Quote: Black Lotos
              There is neither Russian nor Ukrainian in history.

              Those. do you think we are Martians who have no history of their own?

              Quote: Black Lotos
              But you can assign anything you want.

              I completely agree with you - this is exactly what the Svidomye are doing, trying to come up with their own history and their own language.
      4. ism_ek
        ism_ek April 12 2021 16: 03
        0
        Quote: ccsr
        What makes you think that it was the principality of Lithuania that somehow determined the life of Russian people on the territory of modern Ukraine?
        The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was also a Russian state, like the Moscow principality. I wrote that there is no need to identify him with modern Lithuania. They have nothing in common, except for the name.
        There were several centers of the unification of Rus. The main ones were the Moscow principality and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Yes, Lithuanian princes were in power in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but they spoke Russian. Unfortunately for us now Russia and Russia are one and the same. We forget that Ukraine and Belarus are also Rus
        And the Ukrainian language was invented at the beginning of the 20th century by Mr. Grushesky, who sat tightly on Austrian grants and with the outbreak of the war was sent into exile as a German spy.
    3. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 12: 58
      +1
      Quote: ism_ek
      Only the Red Terror, which we now remember, helped bring her back.

      The non-availability detector is already off scale. laughing
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 April 11 2021 06: 57
    -4
    The reason is simple and obvious. Since the times of Peter the Great, we have developed an admiration for the West. The tsar himself sought to modernize the country on the model of Europe, but did not suffer from servility before it, but his successors turned out to be less intelligent. It was the same in the USSR, and more than that, Soviet education spread this disease to the entire population. And now it's useless to try to prove something to someone - they just won't listen. Fyodor Ivanovich Tyutchev said it best of all:
    It would be possible to give an analysis of a modern phenomenon that is acquiring an increasingly pathological character. This is the Russophobia of some Russian people ... They used to tell us, and they really thought so, that in Russia they hate lawlessness, lack of freedom of the press, and so on. etc., that it is precisely the indisputable presence of all this in it that they like Europe ... And now what do we see? As Russia, seeking greater freedom, more and more asserts itself, the dislike of these gentlemen for her only grows. They have never so much hated previous institutions as they hate modern trends in social thought in Russia. As for Europe, then, as we see, no violations in the field of justice, morality and even civilization have in any way diminished their disposition towards it ... In a word, in the phenomenon I am talking about, there can be no talk of principles only instincts...

    Why didn't perestroika become a disaster in China? Because the nationalists are in power there.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich April 11 2021 07: 29
    +2
    Ukraine ... A country with a kindred mentality for us. The people who speak the same language with us. The state, to this day, is closely connected with the Russian economy.

    Interestingly, we had much more prerequisites and means for the development of successful vassal relations with her than Turkey and Azerbaijan ...

    no, the author, not like that: Azerbaijan has never been anti-Turkey. And if there they say that this is one people, but two states, then in the case of Ukraine and Russia, it is strictly the opposite: the Ukrainians declare that they are non-Russians - that is how they were brought up and, the same, brought up.

    Ukraine is initially ANTIRussia - for this it was invented and created

    And since the official collapse of the USSR there has not been a single pro-Russian elite - they all strove to the West and they never intended to become a satellite of Russia.

    Any other country, but not Russia.

    The author demands from Russia what he could not achieve, in much better conditions, the USSR. Did he himself appoint, feed, and educate the elite and cadres, and the result?
    1. Gardamir
      Gardamir April 11 2021 07: 40
      +6
      And since the official collapse of the USSR, there has not been a single pro-Russian elite - they all strove to the West
      Name me at least one pro-Russian in the current Russian elite. All are completely Westerners.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 April 11 2021 08: 07
        -3
        Quote: Olgovich
        Did he himself appoint, feed, and educate the elite and cadres, and the result?

        The result is what they wanted. It was not just that Khrushchev released the Bandera and forest brothers from prison, and Brezhnev did not seem to notice them ...

        Quote: Gardamir
        Name me at least one pro-Russian in the current Russian elite.

        Only one? - Putin.
        If you say that he is so stupid that for so many years he could not destroy Russia, then I will not believe it - Humpbacked it took much less time for the collapse of the USSR.
        1. Gardamir
          Gardamir April 11 2021 08: 32
          +8
          Only one?
          this is your opinion, not supported by anything.
          that he's so dumb
          do not think so straightforwardly. For Yeltsin, the task was to take power at any cost. Therefore, take the sovereign as much as you want .. For the present, another task. Power has already been given to him, which means, "This is our cow and we milk it."
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 April 11 2021 08: 44
            -2
            Quote: Gardamir
            this is your opinion, not supported by anything.

            Compare life at the end of the last century with the present. Just don't tell me that all good things happen by themselves, and all bad things come from power. laughing

            Quote: Gardamir
            "This is our cow and we milk it."

            This is true. Their efforts are aimed at preventing anyone else from visiting the cow, i.e. to the full sovereignty of Russia. At this stage, this is the main task with which they, at the very least, cope. As soon as full sovereignty is achieved, and only then, not earlier, it will be possible to move on to reorganizing the country. The influence of the pro-Western forces in power is still significant, but they are being cleaned up:

            2011 - Governor of the Tula Region Vyacheslav Dudka (served 9,5 years in prison for a bribe of 40 million rubles for the allocation of land to an entrepreneur for a hypermarket.)

            2014 - Governor of the Novosibirsk Region Vasily Yurchenko (served 3 years probation for trading in federal land, at first a bribe of 18 million rubles was incriminated, but could not prove it.)

            2014 - Governor of the Bryansk Region Nikolai Denin (served 4 years in prison for the allocation of 22 million rubles to a family poultry farm.)

            2015 - Governor of the Sakhalin Region Alexander Khoroshavin (serving 13 years in a strict regime colony and a fine of 500 million for bribes totaling 522 million rubles in the company of the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Agriculture, Trade and Food of the region.)

            2015 - the head of the Komi Republic Vyacheslav Gaizer (serving 11 years in prison for creating a criminal group to steal shares of a poultry farm in which they invested 3,5 billion rubles from the fund for supporting investment projects).

            2016 - Head of the Komi Republic Vladimir Torlopov (serving 6,5 years in a penal colony for creating a criminal community and fraud on an especially large scale using his official position.)

            2016 - Governor of the Kirov Region Nikita Belykh (serving 8 years in a strict regime colony for bribes worth more than 50 million rubles for patronage in deforestation.)

            2017 - Governor of the Chelyabinsk Region Mikhail Yurevich (fled from investigation in Israel, spotted in Great Britain after receiving 26 million rubles in the form of a bribe from the Minister of Health of the region.)

            2017 - the head of the Udmurt Republic Alexander Soloviev (released on March 18, 2021 from places of detention due to a serious illness, after he was sentenced in 2020 to 10 years in a colony with a fine of 275 million rubles for bribes from the company he gave licenses to build bridges near the town of Kambarka.)

            2017 - Head of the Republic of Mari El Leonid Markelov (on February 24, 2021, sentenced by the court to 13 years in a strict regime colony for receiving 235 million rubles for patronage when paying state support funds for a large agricultural holding and ammunition storage.)

            2018 - Governor of the Jewish Autonomous Region Alexander Vinnikov (the case was sent for revision after the verdict, previously received 4 years probation for lobbying the interests of a private company - he persuaded the head of the Regional Health Department to purchase equipment for an oncological dispensary at inflated prices.)

            2019 - Governor of the Ivanovo Region Pavel Konkov (under house arrest, suspected of embezzling 700 million budget rubles that were found on dummy accounts.)

            2019 - Former Governor of the Khabarovsk Territory Viktor Ishaev (1991-2009) (February 17, 2021 received 5 years probation for embezzling 7,5 million rubles from PJSC Rosneft.)

            2020 - Governor of the Khabarovsk Territory Sergei Furgal (under investigation on suspicion of contract killings that occurred 15 years ago.)

            Link: https://www.kp.ru/daily/27254.5/4385290/

            ps
            There are 59 governors in Russia.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 11: 09
              +2
              Quote: Boris55
              Compare life at the end of the last century with the present.

              And I will also compare. If at the end of the last century I had a more or less stable job, with sick leave, time off and double salary on Saturdays, now nothing like this is observed on the horizon.
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 April 12 2021 07: 53
                -4
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                If at the end of the last century I had a more or less stable job, with sick leave, time off and double wages on Saturdays,

                Is it in the 90s? If you have forgotten, here is a clip about those times:

        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich April 11 2021 09: 13
          +3
          Quote: Boris55
          The result is what they wanted.

          Precisely for a reason, they carried out wild violent Ukrainizations of Russians in non-Russians under the leadership of the Ukronazis invited by them, Hrushevsky and Vinnichenko.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 11 2021 09: 08
        +3
        Quote: Gardamir
        And since the official collapse of the USSR, there has not been a single pro-Russian elite - they all strove to the West
        Name me at least one pro-Russian in the current Russian elite. All are completely Westerners.

        Those. For how many years has the West been at war (by sanctions, informational, political, etc.) with ... its own Westernizers? belay lol
    2. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 April 11 2021 13: 26
      -1
      Quote: Olgovich
      And since the official collapse of the USSR there has not been a single pro-Russian elite - they all strove to the West and they never intended to become a satellite of Russia.

      It would be strange if it were different. The sick and the poor are of no interest to anyone.

      Quote: Olgovich
      The author demands from Russia what he could not achieve, in much better conditions, the USSR. Did he himself appoint, feed, and educate the elite and cadres, and the result?

      You wanted to say that the capitalist Russian Federation, in the initially better conditions, could not achieve what the USSR was able to achieve?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 12 2021 05: 53
        -1
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        It would be strange if it were different. The sick and the poor are of no interest to anyone.

        you said badly about the USSR ...
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        You wanted to say that the capitalist Russian Federation, in the initially better conditions, could not achieve what the USSR was able to achieve?

        I said what I wanted and what did not reach you: the USSR, having unlimited power, could NOT establish a pro-Russian power on the ruin. On the contrary, he raised Russophobes and put them in charge.

        It is foolish to demand significant results from Russia in such conditions, because it got an independent Ruina
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2021 08: 33
          0
          Quote: Olgovich
          you said badly about the USSR ...

          Have you again decided to place accents according to your delusional ideas about reality?
          Quote: Olgovich
          USSR with unlimited power

          It is permissible to write such nonsense to a primary school student for some time. But you don't seem to be a schoolboy.
    3. Black lotos
      Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 40
      -2
      Quote: Olgovich
      Ukrainians declare that they are non-Russians, so they were brought up and, nevertheless, brought up.

      so there is a situation in what. Ukrainians say they are Ukrainians. And they are told that they are not. And there was not. And in general they are radishes. Which increases the desire to assert that they are Ukrainians, not Russians. (This trait is both Russian and Ukrainian, stubbornness)
      Tell the people of Azerbaijan that they are not there. And there was no, and in general they occupied the territory of Turkey and they need to be seized and their lands distributed to all neighbors. So they will also be against it.
      Turkey does not do this.
      Quote: Olgovich
      Ukraine is originally ANTI-Russia, for this it was invented and created

      With these words, who are just doing what they say, doing Ukraine, anti-Russia, because they accuse the Ukrainians of what they have not done yet, and the Russians are set up towards Ukraine as a hostile country a priori.
      Quote: Olgovich
      The author demands from Russia what he could not achieve, in much better conditions, the USSR. Did he himself appoint, feed, and educate the elite and cadres, and the result?

      Under the USSR, Ukraine was an integral part (one of the main parts of the country) of the USSR and was not going anywhere. Moreover, it strengthened the USSR and was not any Anti-USSR.
      But then the USSR .... there they understood the value. And they worked with everyone, not just the corrupt officials in power.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 12 2021 06: 09
        -2
        Quote: Black Lotos
        so there is a situation in what. Ukrainians say they are Ukrainians. And they are told that they are not.

        you can invent a nation, for example, the Dnieper people, and teach and convince them for a hundred years, and they will be ardent patriots, the Dnieper people. ... So will it be a nation or not? So, they invented a non-existent-she and went her own life.
        Quote: Black Lotos
        With these words that do exactly what they say, do Ukraine, anti-Russia, because accuse Ukrainians are in what they have not done yet, and Russians are set up to Ukraine as a hostile country a priori.

        what kind of clumsy nonsense? See history, there were Rus and Rus, there were no Ukrainians in the past, appeared in the 19th century in AVEngria. What for?
        Quote: Black Lotos
        Under the USSR, Ukraine was integral part (one of the main parts of the country) of the USSR and nowhere was not going to Moreover, it strengthened the USSR and was not any Anti-USSR.

        Look out the window, huh? 1991 remember at the same time.
        Quote: Black Lotos
        about the USSR .... there they understood the value. And they worked with everyone, not just the corrupt officials in power.

        finalized, yes, before such a catastrophe of the collapse of the country, which has never happened in history.
    4. Icarus
      Icarus April 11 2021 21: 28
      0
      Ukraine is originally ANTI-Russia, for this it was invented and created
      You do not consider the impact of government propaganda, the media, and the education system on people. It is thanks to propaganda that Ukraine has become ANTI-Russia. But it was not like that from the beginning. Germany was not originally a Nazi. Thanks to Goebbels, she became like this in a few years. And in the modern information world, the influence of propaganda is only increasing. And this can be treated not only with a scalpel, but also with anti-propaganda, and better: with a scalpel and anti-propaganda.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 12 2021 06: 12
        0
        Quote: Icarus
        You do not consider the impact of government propaganda, the media, and the education system on people. It is thanks to propaganda that Ukraine has become ANTI-Russia. But it was not like that from the beginning.

        initially there was a single Russia, then Russia.

        A piece cut off from it is automatically an opposition, i.e. ANTIRussia.
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir April 11 2021 07: 39
    +2
    the countries of the post-Soviet space were our satellites.
    if it’s the mister the author. Those same 15 republics, if you dig a little deeper into history, this is our territory. And the Baltics are Russian lands, over the centuries the Balts were intensively assimilated by the Germans.
    Ukraine is one hundred percent, part of Russia. Few people and how in centuries cut the borders. It is a betrayal to give up your land. Ukraine is only about five regions on the map of today's Ukraine.
    In 1991, Ukraine was separated, because otherwise Boriska would not see power. And so he was invited to omerika, he conducted the orchestra.
  • Yuri Tverdokhleb
    Yuri Tverdokhleb April 11 2021 07: 44
    +3
    Let's not forget that against the USSR and then against Russia, the Americans and the Westerners have always acted according to the rule of scrap, against which there is no admission. But the paradox is that there is something good in this bad, the niggas literally and figuratively put on the knees of Amers, and Asians and Africans are destroying Europa.
    It is necessary, since the card fell like that, to proceed from the present day and to defend the great and Orthodox Russia with a calm and firm gaze.
  • Al_lexx
    Al_lexx April 11 2021 07: 53
    -4
    All this is idle chatter. The loss of Little Russia was laid back in 1917. Thanks to grandfathers Lenin and Trotsky, as well as other overt and secret fiery Cominternists (the first large-scale performance of globalists with the aim of seizing world domination), with the subsequent division of the Russian Empire into a patchwork quilt, along ethnic lines, after the revolution.

    The funniest thing about all this is the incessant cries of stone-faced communists (and just fools repeating other people's stupidity) that the revolution in Russia happened naturally (about the lower and upper classes, etc. crap), who do not understand or do not want to understand one simple simple thing ... Namely, the fact that initially the October revolution did not set itself the task of improving the life of the population of the former Russian Empire and establishing a new just state. In general, the Comintern did not care about the population of our country, they needed a world fire and the destruction of national sovereigns, in order to establish state power over the state (which they are doing now with this or that success). This is confirmed by the monstrous number of victims and the almost complete destruction of the so-called white bone, but simply the class that was the most educated and had experience in leading anything. By the way, the IVS rigidly dissociated itself from the Comintern and subnumbered them as much as possible, after which the III / IV intentionals put their ears to the shadows. And it is the IVS that is, in fact, our last emperor, albeit harshly (often mistakenly) who preserved the country.
    At the same time, today's globalists have not changed their tasks and tools, but only began to use a slightly different legend of their planetary scam. Strictly speaking, the purchase of fiery revolutionaries (the fifth column) in 1917, in fact, differs little from the purchase of the leaders of the USSR in the late 80s, early 90s, only the entourage is different, with practically the same monstrous human and territorial losses.
    Further more. After they bought the party elite in the late 80s and destroyed the country, they began to buy in parts each fragment, each separately. Incl. and on the territory of the so-called Ukraine, in fact a phantom state, about which no one even heard about 100 years ago.
    And I don't need to sing here army songs about a weak-willed tsar, an empress who hated Germany and other nonsense from the textbooks of "scientific communism" (I read them at one time as a student and at one time was a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, obliged to study works, etc., schizophrenia) ... As well as about Gorbachev, who really believed in something there, and his burdock was bred like a rabbit. Leave these songs for the idiots.
    We lost Little Russia 100 years ago. In return, they received a phantom called Ukraine. And then, after the "withdrawal" of the IVS, everything was only a matter of time, when the clans would seize power, and not the nominees from the lower classes, who moved the country in the 30-50s. The USSR was divided among themselves long before Gorbachev. He was just a comfortable, weak-willed figure who had worked out his performance for a small bribe. Those. no matter how funny it is, but although Gorbachev was one of the main interests of that circus with horses, called "perestroika and glasnost", he was given only severance pay for unemployment.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 April 11 2021 09: 15
      +4
      Quote: Al_lexx
      All this idle chatter... The loss of Little Russia was laid back in 1917. Thanks to grandfathers Lenin and Trotsky

      Empty chatter. In fact, the USSR only increased land and influence. And Russia has lost all 14 republics and even something from the lands of the RSFSR. The only exception is Crimea, which itself fell off from the rebellious Ukraine.

      No, well, you can blame anyone ... even Lenin and Trotsky, even the Polovtsy with the Pechenegs.
    2. tatra
      tatra April 11 2021 09: 18
      -2
      The enemies of the communists will never surprise. I deliberately went into this topic to make sure that again there will be their cowardly blaming the communists for the fact that the enemies of the communists divided the USSR among themselves, for 30 years they inculcate anger and hatred both against the communists and their supporters, and against each other, play the peoples among themselves, unleash wars among themselves.
    3. clerk
      clerk April 11 2021 09: 24
      +3
      . All this is idle chatter. The loss of Little Russia was laid back in 1917. Thanks to grandfathers Lenin and Trotsky
      For the loss of Little Russia and before Lenin and Trotsky, there is someone to say "thank you": - "Central Rada (Ukrainian. Central Rada, literally." Central Council ") (March 1917 - April 1918) - at the initial stage - a representative body of Ukrainian political, public , cultural and professional organizations; from April 1917, after the All-Ukrainian National Congress, took over the functions of the highest legislative body in Ukraine, coordinating the development of the Ukrainian national movement, unilaterally proclaimed the national-territorial autonomy of Ukraine within Russia ”; “One of the measures that, according to Kornilov, could radically increase the combat capability of the troops, was the creation of large national military formations - primarily Ukrainian ones: according to Kornilov, it was the Ukrainians who directly defended their native land that showed the greatest stamina and discipline in battle. ... In August 1917, at the suggestion of L. G. Kornilov, Skoropadsky began to "Ukrainize" his corps (104th and 153rd infantry divisions) "(c).
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 11: 12
        +4
        Quote: clerk
        For the loss of Little Russia and before Lenin and Trotsky, there is someone to say "thank you"

        Why didn't they take her a couple of years ago? BUT?
    4. place
      place April 14 2021 15: 55
      -1
      Quote: Al_lexx
      with the subsequent division of the Russian Empire into a patchwork quilt after the revolution, along ethnic lines.


      After what revolution? I guess Mr. Al_lexx did not understand that "grandfather Lenin" came to power when no Empire existed anymore. And by 1922 he and his comrades had to collect a "patchwork quilt" from the republics. already created by this time by the nationalists. Why do we have so many illiterates?
  • avia12005
    avia12005 April 11 2021 07: 57
    +7
    The reason for our losses is the incompetence of our elite and its betrayal of the interests of Russia and all Russians. There is no other.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I April 11 2021 08: 26
      +3
      Quote: avia12005
      The reason for our losses is the incompetence of our elite and its betrayal of the interests of Russia and all Russians. ...

      Absolutely true! yes Unsuitability and betrayal! I remember how Yeltsin's liberation explained to the people why they "abolished" the USSR, gave up Crimea, abandoned nuclear weapons ... I had never heard such idiocy and blatant lies before! I, an ordinary Russian man in the street, "a steamy engineer" (according to Raikin ...) saw through and through the falsity and stupidity of the arguments of the representatives of the ruling regime of Yeltsin! I tried to explain this to my acquaintances, neighbors ... I tried to write something, perform somewhere ... everything was empty! People didn't give a fuck! It was "from there" that I stopped (and did not start ...) to vote for the current government ... I have never voted for either Yeltsin, or Medvedev, or Putin!
    2. place
      place April 14 2021 16: 00
      -1
      Quote: avia12005
      The reason for our losses is the incompetence of our elite and its betrayal of the interests of Russia and all Russians. There is no other.


      The reason for our losses is that we do not care and sneeze about everything except our personal affairs. The Russians are not that "betrayed the interests of Russia." The Russian people never realized that they were responsible for the History of Russia. The Russian people always believed that Jews like Trotsky were responsible for Russia; "first these came to us and did this, then those came and did that." What are you guys doing here, generally speaking? THE MOVIE IS ALREADY OVER!
  • kig
    kig April 11 2021 07: 58
    -2
    A country with a kindred mentality for us, a people who speak the same language with us
    mentality ... one can hardly say so boldly that we have the same mentality. He is different among the Russians. Ukrainians who were born and educated in Russia by passport do not really differ much, but they can hardly be called pure Ukrainians. It is necessary to live for several years in Ukraine and communicate with the local people, then you can talk about the mentality. Well, one language is generally far-fetched.

    Well, in general, after CrimeaNasha it is foolish to lament that Ukraine has turned its back on us.
    1. Sheridan
      Sheridan April 11 2021 09: 22
      -9
      And what did Russia lose from the turned away Ukraine?
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan April 11 2021 15: 09
        0
        And you also ask - what have we lost? A possible ally was lost. If they had a correct policy, they would have been able to return Ukraine to their allies. Even neutral Ukraine is more useful to us than the current hostile one.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr April 11 2021 10: 12
      +4
      Quote: kig
      It is different for Russians too. Ukrainians who were born and educated in Russia by passport do not really differ much, but they can hardly be called pure Ukrainians.

      Quite right, and I can confirm this with an example from my own life:
      My old friend, an ethnic Ukrainian, who has all relatives from the Vinnitsa region, starting from Vinnitsa and ending with Zhmerinka, is absolutely Russian in spirit and thoughts and he always sincerely hated today's Ukrainians, not only because of the collapse of industrial and economic ties with Russia, but also because of some features of their mentality.
      And it began in the distant seventies, when as part of the unit we went to the neighboring collective farm named after Michurin of the Stupinsky district and there we harvested potatoes, cabbage, carrots for the unit and ourselves, paying for it at collective farm prices, because the people and the army were truly united and helped each other. This miserable collective farm near Moscow, having one clay, frail cows, nevertheless managed not only to pay off loans, but even to make a small profit, i.e. listed in the average middle peasants, which at least caused respect, because he supplied milk and meat, and also had different landings and people did not live well, but nevertheless provided products according to plans (we were aware of collective farm affairs - patronage help, holiday gatherings, etc.).
      And so, going on vacation to his relatives, my friend arrived and said an amazing thing. It turns out that the Vinnitsa collective farm, where he was resting with his relatives, takes loans from year to year, does not repay them, and they write off a million rubles each, then for drought, now for crop failure, or for cattle death, in a word, like a bottomless barrel (and this Ukraine, and not in the suburbs, where we first learned what -42 C is - winter 77-78). But on the collective farm everyone had stone houses, cars, large personal households and all their prosperity was built on the usual theft of collective farm property - animal feed, hay, etc.
      This shocked my friend so much that he called them cattle, because in his spirit he was and is a statesman, and he was used to appreciating a penny — as we were taught, all the more so since we had an example of honest farming.
      Since then, he has always treated with a certain contempt all conversations about how Ukrainians know how to work and live - he just learned the ins and outs of this "miracle" and he was disgusted by it.
      Subsequently, he held a responsible position in the central office of the Moscow Region, knew our defense industry, its architecture and communications well, and immediately after the collapse of the USSR said that Ukraine would bend much faster than everyone thinks. In principle, everything was confirmed.
      So it's not about Russia - it's about the brains of the Ukrainians themselves, and until they understand that they need to work and not plunder what is left of the USSR, they will be in constant shit, and at the same time blame the Russians for their troubles. And what they come up with to justify - we do not care about it ...

      Quote: kig
      It is necessary to live for several years in Ukraine and communicate with the local people, then you can talk about the mentality.

      Yes, this is the only way to understand what they are breathing, and not to believe everything that their propagandists here on VO tell.
      1. genezis6
        genezis6 April 21 2021 15: 21
        0
        Your truth, I fully support.
    3. Black lotos
      Black lotos April 11 2021 17: 51
      -3
      Quote: kig
      Well, in general, after CrimeaNasha it is foolish to lament that Ukraine has turned its back on us.

      which is logical, since territorial exclusion very rarely leads to good relations. And there is nothing better for enmity - than disputes over territory.
      It's just that Krymnash is always taken away from the parentheses, preferring to say that the reason for leaving was only the Ukrainians themselves. And he didn't influence Krymnash on anything.
      For me, he became a terrible blow to everything Russian in the territory of Ukraine. Because of him, all Russian died abruptly in the country. And no one, no one began to fight for it. The country with the largest Russian-speaking environment began to perceive the Russian in itself as a threat to territorial integrity, which led to the loss of 13.22% of the territory and the war.
      No nationalists / Vyatrovichi / Bandera and others could not have killed everything Russian in the Russians themselves, as Krymnash did, because the external, it gives rise to resistance and rejection. And this is an internal defeat, an admission to ourselves that the Russian is hostile.
      By the way, the Russians in Ukraine were most worried about the loss of the Crimea and the war. Because for the Westerners, this is all the electorate of the regionals / pro-Russian, and they themselves are almost in Europe and there are not many of them.
      In general, for some Russians it is a holiday, for other Russians it is a defeat. Cruel, after which they ceased to see the center of crystallization and ideas in the Russian Federation.
      Therefore, they are strenuously becoming Ukrainians. Radical. Much more nationalists than Western Ukrainians.
      1. clerk
        clerk April 11 2021 18: 01
        +1
        ... No nationalists / Vyatrovichi / Bandera and others could not kill everything Russian in the Russians themselves, as Krymnash did.
        Only those who are not familiar with the results of the 1991 referendum on the independence of Ukraine can believe in this Bandera fake.
      2. Nestor Vlakhovski
        Nestor Vlakhovski April 12 2021 00: 33
        +1
        It’s a very neat story, it’s a pity that it doesn’t fight with reality.
        If at the beginning of the 00s Russian was the most popular and used language in Ukraine (without any restrictions), then by 2013 there were practically no Russian schools left in this country, Russian-speaking TV channels were also strangled, according to Russophobic history textbooks, we did not manage to unlearn one generation, the same with the workflow and the business sphere.
        As you can see, the artificially rotated Nazis, long before our Crimea, were killing any "Russianness" without any problems for the money of the oligarchy and under the indifferent bleating of the submissive majority.
        By the way, of those acquaintances who stayed in / on the Square, no one in himself "killed Russianness" and they treat Russia with understanding, in the changing stop the country tried to save at least crumbs.
        And the attitude towards Crimea itself "on the mainland" was old. Unwind the Internet years back and you will see tons of mockery about how "cunning mykols squeezed their Crimea from stupid Ivanov."
        1. kig
          kig April 12 2021 02: 34
          +1
          Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
          by 2013, there are practically no Russian schools left in this country,

          We look at the statistics, and by the way - Ukrainian
          https://uiamp.org.ua/isl/dinamika-kolichestva-shkol-i-uchenikov-po-yazykam-obucheniya



          as you can see, a sharp decrease in the number of schools with the Russian language occurred after 2014. Coincidence?
  • Kolin
    Kolin April 11 2021 08: 09
    +2
    Well, of course, the communist comrades who donated Novorossiya and Crimea to Ukraine, who had been conducting Ukrainization for decades and ruled the USSR so "professionally" that it collapsed, has nothing to do with it.
    1. tatra
      tatra April 11 2021 09: 20
      0
      Stop lying . The communists did not give any territory to YOU, to their enemies.
      1. Al_lexx
        Al_lexx April 11 2021 13: 45
        0
        Quote: tatra
        Stop lying . The communists did not give any territory to YOU, to their enemies.

        Like any other person, you have every right to believe and broadcast any nonsense!
        If you do not understand how real politics works and judge it from TV programs, then you still cannot be persuaded. How can you explain to a person something that he has no idea about and is guided only by newspaper and television clichés and his own emotions?
        The real USSR existed only under the rule of Stalin. And the reason for this, first of all, is that Russia has always been and is a country that normally develops only under an authoritarian rule. Everything else that happened after Stalin was a movement by inertia. Suffice it to look at the stagnation of the pace of development, after he was essentially killed by the so-called communists.
        You must understand, I have a direct idea of ​​how the apparatus of the CPSU worked, since I worked as an instructor of the district party committee and not in some "Ustkukuisk", but in the Kiev district committee of Moscow. And the Kiev district committee of the CPSU, this is the district committee of the district Kutuzovsky prospect, etc., where the entire nomenclature of the Central Committee lived (all their relatives were living in the Kiev district committee) and what kind of scoundrels ruled our country in the 80s, I know very well and not from the stories of grandmothers on the bench or evenings with Malakhov. As soon as our unforgettable "maize" came to power, the party immediately turned into a family enterprise, almost at the level of an organized criminal group. And here you are telling some stories about the kibalchish boy and shaking red banners with a heroic face.
        However, what am I talking about? I suppose you didn't even really understand whether I was for the Reds or for the Whites, because that's what you think about. You are not even able to understand that the Comintern, to which the Lenin-Trotsky belonged, have nothing to do with the Communists you are trying to talk about here. winked
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 48
          -2
          Quote: Al_lexx
          worked as an instructor of the district party committee and not in some "Ustkukuisk", but in the Kiev district committee of Moscow.

          Oh, half a liter! I shut my mouth - the working day is over! Hey, instructor, why did you ruin the USSR?
  • Silhouette
    Silhouette April 11 2021 08: 56
    0
    Even under Brezhnev, I heard that Ukraine feeds the entire Union from my relative, a Poltava resident. It was an everyday chat with a tinge of pride. But the crypto-Bandera who came to power after the collapse of the Union elevated this message to the rank of state ideology and zombified the inhabitants. Ukraine is an anti-Russian chimera that has no right to exist. The question is: Russia or Ukraine. As long as there is such a word as Ukraine, the existence of Russia is under threat.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr April 11 2021 17: 19
      +2
      Quote: Silhouette
      Even under Brezhnev, I heard that Ukraine feeds the entire Union from my relative, a Poltava resident. It was an everyday chat with a tinge of pride.

      This is exactly what happened, and those who grew up in Ukraine and know their mentality well know this. Therefore, after the Balts, they were the first to rush into independence, and this was laid down long before Gorbachev, just the local svidomo do not like to remember it.
      Quote: Silhouette
      But the crypto-Bandera who came to power after the collapse of the Union elevated this message to the rank of state ideology and zombified the inhabitants. Ukraine is an anti-Russian chimera that has no right to exist.

      And they started it with propaganda in the media and on TV how good it is to live in Ukraine, which Russians are stupid, and Ukrainians have the right to income from mining in Russia, because Ukrainians also worked there in Soviet times. Most of those writing here do not even suspect what kind of bacchanalia and Russophobia was in their media, even such as the local "Moskovsky Komsomolets", AIF and "Komsomolskaya Pravda" published in Ukraine.
  • Virus-free crown
    Virus-free crown April 11 2021 09: 03
    +5
    The author did not put a plus sign for the article, because he is "not in the subject" repeat
    There is no "common Ukraine"
    There is:
    - "Westerners"
    - there is a middle Kiev
    - and there are Russians

    With the "zapadnentsy" everything is clear - they considered Bandera as a national hero back in the days of the USSR

    Middle Kiev - "not ours, not yours" - we neither acquired nor lost it

    But with the Russians in Ukraine "specific troubles" - in 2014 Russia beckoned and threw ... am

    I have relatives all over Ukraine ... So my relatives in Donbass do not understand why they also voted to join Rosssey, like my relatives in Crimea ... "krymnash" - why not "donbassnash" ?! am Why children from the same family - some have become "ours" - and others "NOT ours" ?!

    PS about children from the same family - it was written in plain text ... an aunt from Crimea is already "ours" - and my aunt and uncle from Donbass are NOT ours
    1. Silhouette
      Silhouette April 11 2021 17: 41
      +1
      The explanation is simple. After 2014, 20 thousand people left Crimea for Ukraine (mainly from those who settled in 20 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union), and 1 million from Donbass. There is a difference?
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown April 12 2021 13: 23
        0
        Quote: Silhouette
        The explanation is simple. After 2014, 20 thousand people left Crimea for Ukraine (mainly from those who settled in 20 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union), and 1 million from Donbass. There is a difference?

        I did not understand why your answer, about the fact that as you say 1 million left the Donbass, 5 of this million we sheltered in Belarus and Russia - not everyone is ready to live under EVERYDAY shelling !!! am When you go to the store and do not know whether it will kill you on the way or not ...
        1. Silhouette
          Silhouette April 12 2021 15: 00
          0
          Read carefully and then you will understand the difference between those who left for Ukraine and for Russia and Belarus.
  • clerk
    clerk April 11 2021 09: 09
    -5
    Against the background of Russia's rather vague policy in Transcaucasia (flirting with the sometimes anti-Russian-minded Armenia, coupled with a disdainful attitude towards Azerbaijan, which was a regular customer of our defense industry with "real" money), Ankara was able to become not just an ally, but also a "big brother" of Baku.

    In fact, at the moment Azerbaijan occupies the position of not just a union, but a vassal (in the best sense of the word) country - Ankara has received a new sales market (especially for weapons products) and a reliable foothold in the Transcaucasus. Turkish culture is gently and unobtrusively exported to create stable "brotherly ties" between the two states, which are henceforth linked not only by military or political, but also by spiritual ties. However, this process has been successfully launched in Central and Central Asia ... In the countries that were ours less than half a century ago.
    In 2010-19. Azerbaijan bought weapons from Turkey for $ 93 million, from Russia - for $ 2,1 billion. In 2020, Turkey increased its arms exports to Azerbaijan up to $ 256 million (due to drones and missiles), but the cost of the deal for the supply of S-400 to Turkey amounted to $ 2,5 billion. The total cost of the Akkuyu NPP is $ 22 billion. So while the author laments that Turkey is climbing into Central Asia (where, by the way, it will have to compete with China), Russia itself is mastering the high-tech part of the Turkish energy and arms market. As for Pan-Turkism or Pan-Slavism, these are bows on the body of the economy. In Turkey, the birth rate is too low to really demographically develop new territories.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 11: 16
      +1
      Quote: clerk
      In 2010-19. Azerbaijan bought weapons from Turkey for $ 93 million, from Russia - for $ 2,1 billion.

      Why do you hate Armenians so much, if in your opinion it turns out that the Azerbaijanis (and, in fact, the same Turks), gouged them with our peaceful tractors?
      1. clerk
        clerk April 11 2021 11: 33
        +1
        ... In 2010-19. Azerbaijan bought weapons from Turkey for $ 93 million, from Russia - for $ 2,1 billion.

        Why do you hate Armenians so much, if in your opinion it turns out that the Azerbaijanis (and, in fact, the same Turks), gouged them with our peaceful tractors?
        What hate - what are you talking about? Nonsense. Yesterday's fifth liter speaks in you. If over 10 years Azerbaijan spent 2,1 billion dollars on the purchase of Russian weapons (63% of arms imports), and Armenia - 419 million (93%), then who hates whom?
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 13: 25
          -2
          Quote: clerk
          If over 10 years Azerbaijan spent 2,1 billion dollars on the purchase of Russian weapons (63% of arms imports), and Armenia - 419 million (93%), then who hates whom?

          Ahh, and we are happy to sell them clubs, so that they mutuzit each other better. And you don’t have to tell me that if not we, then others would have sold. I remember what the cry was when they found out that the Jews put optics on the Georgian tanks, and the Ukrainians took their tanks for overhaul.
          1. clerk
            clerk April 11 2021 14: 54
            +2
            ... I remember what the cry was when they found out that the Jews put optics on the Georgian tanks, and the Ukrainians took their tanks for overhaul.
            With these screams, not to me. By the way, Jews are the second after Russia arms seller to Azerbaijan.
            .Aah, and we are happy to sell them clubs, so that they mutuzit each other better.
            For you do not need to supply shoddy cognac to Russia and raise prices in the markets. jedem das Seine (c)
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 11 2021 15: 00
              -1
              Quote: clerk
              With these screams, not to me.

              Of course not to you. In those years you dabbled in diapers. American.
              Quote: clerk
              For it is not necessary to supply shoddy cognac to Russia

              They did not supply us with crappy cognac, they supplied us with feces, Onishchenko will not let us lie.
              1. clerk
                clerk April 11 2021 16: 33
                +1
                ... With these screams, not to me.

                Of course not to you. In those years you dabbled in diapers. American.
                Don't you dry out since the 70s?
                .For nefig to Russia to supply shoddy cognac

                They did not supply us with crappy cognac, they supplied us with feces, Onishchenko will not let us lie.
                What do you drink yourself - a stool?
  • Alexy
    Alexy April 11 2021 09: 10
    +5
    “What is interesting, we had much more prerequisites and means for the development of successful vassal relations with her” - this is one of the main delusions. Ukraine has never wanted to see itself in secondary roles. Remember the Union, more than half of the party elite were from Ukraine. Post-Soviet Russia, on the other hand, liked to look at the environment often from a high level, even when she herself was on the verge of collapse. In the countries of the former USSR, this was called imperial thinking. Perhaps this behavior can be swallowed by some Kyrgyzstan or Armenia, but not Ukraine. It is a pity that our management, as well as the author, have not yet understood this. Ukrainian elites did not want and do not want to be on the sidelines with the Russian ones, because they considered and consider them, at least, equal. But they consider Europe and the United States to be higher and therefore it is not disgraceful to be "vassals" to them, as they say.
    1. clerk
      clerk April 11 2021 15: 05
      0
      Perhaps some Kyrgyzstan or Armenia will be able to swallow such behavior, but not Ukraine. It is a pity that our management, as well as the author, have not yet understood this. Ukrainian elites did not want and do not want to be on the sidelines with the Russian ones because they considered and consider them, at least, equal. But they consider Europe and the United States to be higher and therefore they are not "vassals", as they say.
      A slave cannot become a vassal. Russia understands this, Ukraine never. laughing
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker April 11 2021 09: 13
    +4
    "Why are we losing our territories at all?"
    Betrayal of the country's leadership!
    "How long will we retreat on our own land, abundantly watered with the blood of our ancestors, losing in the war of words and public opinion?"
    Until we get rid of the traitors! Traitors should not build centers, but give a truthful assessment of their activities.
    "In particular, the head of Channel One, K. Ernst, allegedly has British citizenship. In turn, the successful TV presenter V. Solovyov has an Israeli passport, the venerable TV presenter E. Andreeva is Italian, the husband of A. Pugacheva, showman M. Galkin owns a US green card, showman I. Urgant has a Montenegrin residence permit. "Https://zen.yandex.ru/media/human_resources_inform/dvoinoe-grajdanstvo-televeduscih-v
    And who will give the assessment and tell the truth? There are also deputies in the government, and their families have been living there for a long time.
  • Sheridan
    Sheridan April 11 2021 09: 20
    -8
    Does the ally want to be an ally of the Russian Federation? No, he wants to have a free feeder and water it with his own Bandera shit. Well, Ukraine is sitting in the shit from his greediness and under the rule of the Ukrainian Jews. And the gap is not visible. So what does Russia have to do with the groaning from the loss of such a parasite? No, why is this uyo ...
  • Placebo
    Placebo April 11 2021 09: 25
    0
    The cook will badly run the state, the colonel, the lawyer, the comedian, these are all dolls that look so much like people.
  • tatra
    tatra April 11 2021 09: 25
    +2
    Just as the "liberated" by Gorbachev, the enemies of the communists in their Perestroika brazenly LIEED to the people that it was their republic that feeds the entire USSR, so the Russian enemies of the communists 30 years after their capture of the RSFSR crucify that they "fed" the republics of the USSR, and "feed" the states the former USSR. Naturally, with such an "ideology" the enemies of the communists are only capable of destroying the country and creating a State with "enemies all around".
  • Niko
    Niko April 11 2021 09: