Military Review

Three truths of Chambois: the magic of numbers

147
In most parts of the world, Holocaust denial is a punishable criminal offense. Denial of the Armenian Genocide is a crime in many countries. Denying war crimes during World War II is nowhere criminalized. And it would be useful in full measure to cool the hot heads of the supporters of rewriting stories... The authors of the falsifications about the battles for Chambois could at least be boycotted by such measures.


This is how a gene absent from Chambois writes about the events of those days. Franciszek Skibinsky:

The behavior of the prisoners, among whom there were many SS men, became more and more insolent and provocative. It was possible, however, to avoid the only possible pedagogical measure under such circumstances. I mean just ... shooting.

However, according to the Americans present in Chambois, not only could not such a "pedagogical" measure be avoided, but quite the opposite: the Poles cold-bloodedly shot German prisoners, regardless of their nationality - even if they were Austrians or Poles from territories annexed to the Third Reich. The soldiers of the 1st Armored Division were remembered by the allies as gloomy and angry, all around them prying out only one thing: what the BBC says about the Warsaw Uprising.

Were the prisoners really shot under the influence of the tragic news from Warsaw?

It will be possible to give an unambiguous answer to this question only when Polish historians abandon the collusion of silence around the Chambois topic.

German prisoners of war
German prisoners of warcaptured by the Polish 1st Armored Division during the Battle of Chambois. The exact number of prisoners of war who fell into the hands of the Poles is still unknown, which gives rise to reasonable suspicions about their destruction.

The main argument of the Polish side in favor of the version that there were no violations of the law in the treatment of the prisoners are the memoirs of the highest rank of the German prisoner from Chambois - General Otto Elfeldt, who never made any claims about the maintenance of German prisoners by the Poles.

This is only partially true. Elfeldt, until his death in October 1982, had no right to say anything bad about the Poles, because neither he nor his group witnessed any crimes on the part of the allies. But we are talking about other prisoners who were not handed over to the Americans and who are still missing.

In Poland, there are only unofficial rumors on this topic. But American veterans openly say that everyone was well aware of the shootings of prisoners by the Poles in Chambois, and even now you can ask the elderly residents of the city about them - the 90th division of the US Army is not afraid of such an investigation.

According to American sources, the soldiers of the 90th division after the war kept in touch with the residents of Chambois, and especially a certain Denise Bucke, who became their kind of "insurance policy" in case the blame for the death of 1300 German prisoners was attributed to the Americans. An officer who fought for Falaise and a veteran of the 90th division, John Colby wrote to me in a private letter:

Even in a letter from Waters, dated September 13, 1999, I see him asking me if I had met Denise Bucke. We called her "Our Lady of Chambois." He and Waters just had a very sweet meeting. Their conversation boiled down, in particular, to the question of the Polish captain and his statement that the Poles had killed 1300 prisoners.

So Denise Bucke and 1300 prisoners.

Where are they from?

In the Chambois area, the Poles faced the problem of the number of prisoners, too large in relation to the personnel of the 1st Armored Division, who were supposed to guard them. Official historical documents speak of 2000 people, but in unofficial research and private memoirs there are different numbers, sometimes contradicting each other.

So there it was:

- 1300 soldiers captured on August 19 by the group of Major Vladislav Zgorzhelsky;
- from 500 to 1000 (according to various sources), captured on August 20 at the height of Mont Ormel;
- several hundred (there is even more spread of data according to sources), taken prisoner on August 20 by patrol platoons of captain Jerzy Vasilevsky;
- and smaller groups captured during 21 August.

Due to the impossibility of keeping such a number of prisoners on their own, the Poles agreed with the Americans to transfer them to a temporary prisoner of war camp, which was held in Chambois by part of the 7th company of the 2nd battalion of the 359th regiment of the 90th division under the command of Captain Laughlin Waters ... The Americans wanted to know how many prisoners they should prepare for the influx. And we received an answer from the Poles - about two thousand.

These prisoners never fell into the hands of Waters.

In his book titled "Narvik and Falaise" Polish veteran Colonel Vladislav Detz, former deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Brigade of the 1st Armored Division, wrote:

General Elfeldt, 28 officers and 1,5 thousand prisoners had to be sent to the Americans. But this could only be done on August 21st.

Such is the obligatory version of events, admitted to print in Poland, that all the Germans were handed over to the Americans in bulk by the Poles.

Decu echoes and Skibinsky:

On the afternoon of August 20, Major Zgorzelski "sold" 1906 prisoners to the Americans.

Both of these information are false.

I'm not even talking about the discrepancy between the dates and the number of prisoners, which both Polish officers see. Because there is still a basic provision that does not withstand the verification of documents, American publications that have been published since 1945, as well as the memoirs of American and French witnesses: Poles transferred prisoners of war in small groups, in different places and at different times. And their total number did not exceed half of the declared.

So, on August 20, 1944, the Poles handed over, according to American data, about 750 Germans, and according to the Polish - 796. They were handed over to the wrong Americans who were expecting them. They were transferred not to the 7th company of the 2nd battalion of the 359th regiment of the 90th division of captain Laughlin Waters, but to the 5th company of the 2nd battalion of the 359th regiment of the 90th division of captain Edward Lingardt, who accidentally met the Poles. confirmed the transfer of prisoners. The fifth company immediately got rid of the prisoners, transferring them to the 3rd battalion of the 358th regiment of the 90th division, that is, to another battalion that fought in Chambois. In the American documentation, this group, which contained the gene. Otto Elfeldt, not even registered in the assets of the 2nd battalion of the 359th regiment, but only in the assets of the 3rd battalion of the 358th regiment.

The last group of prisoners, approx. 200 people, the Poles handed over to the Americans on August 22 to the command of the Waters company. This happened on the estate of Paul and Denise Bucke, members of the Resistance movement who speak English. Denise Bucke was present at the transfer of the prisoners along with Waters.

When Waters asked where the rest of the prisoners were, because there should have been two thousand of them, and there were only about 200, the Polish captain just shrugged his shoulders and replied: “There are none. We shot them. That's all that's left. " Waters, who had already witnessed how the Poles shot prisoners, began to shout: "Why weren't these people shot?" Then, recollecting himself, he added that they have no right to do this, to which he received the answer: “Oh yes, we have. They shot at my fellow countrymen. " And then, taking Waters by the hand, took him to the side and added: “Captain, we cannot shoot these. We're out of cartridges. "

This case, well-known in Chambois, overshadowed US-Polish relations, especially since the fate of at least 1300 prisoners is unknown, and their traces are lost after being recorded in the assets of the 1st Armored Division. But the Poles cannot escape the question of the treatment of prisoners of war while the Americans write the following:

Corpses don't lie. In the territory where we had not fought before, but only later occupied, we found whole heaps of German corpses. They were bodies without weapons, helmets, belts. They lay supine with their arms thrown back; in this position do not go into battle.

“Yesterday, our troops, together with units of the Polish 24th Armored Regiment, advanced along the Div and took the city of Chambois,” - reported on August 20, 1944, Canadian Lieutenant Colonel Jean Thorburn at a meeting at the headquarters of the 27th armored regiment of the Sherbrooke riflemen. And this phrase is firmly inscribed in the annals of Canadian military history. It's hard to find anything more annoying for Americans from the 90th Infantry Division and its fighter battalions. tanks.

If the Canadians really took the city on August 19, then with whom did the Americans fight stubbornly in the center of Chambois until August 21? From the Polish point of view, the Canadians quite unfairly credit themselves with the capture of Chambois solely on the grounds that the 1st Armored Division was subordinated to the Canadian II Corps, although no Canadian fought in Chambois.

Franciszek Skibiński in one of his books calls the Poles "liberators of Chambois" and claims that it was taken already on 19 August.

But the Canadian national hero and veteran of the Battle of Chambois, Major David Currie of the 29th Reconnaissance Armored Regiment of Southern Alberta, sees it completely differently:

On the evening of 19 August, the Poles took the northern edge of the city and attacked the II SS Panzer Corps, which was concentrating on approaching it. The battle continued until August 21, when the Falaise cauldron was closed.

Currie is the only Canadian to be awarded the Victoria Cross (the highest military honor in the British Empire) for the Battle of Normandy. At Chambois, he commanded a mechanized tank group operating in the vicinity of the Poles.

There is no author in the Polish historical literature of the same format and culture as Terry Kopp. One of the few just, Kopp, without reservations and without embellishment, pays tribute to the Americans, Canadians and Poles who participated in the battles for the Falaise Cauldron. The cultural gap between Poland and Canada is illustrated in a warm article by Kop, entitled "Our Polish brothers in arms".

And in Polish publications, the most famous Canadian, Major David Currie, almost does not exist. If he is mentioned, it is usually casually, with errors and with belittling of the significance of his group. Currie commanded the forces of three Canadian regiments. Like the Poles, he plugged the gaps in the front and more than once rescued the Poles in critical situations - for this he received his Victoria Cross. And how the Poles describe other Canadian connections, it is better not to remember.

The Polish 1st Armored Division in the Falaise Cauldron fought excellently, but with peculiarities of national tactics. Gord Collette, a Canadian signalman from the 4th Armored Division, has repeatedly observed the actions of the Poles, including in the battles for Chambois. His memoirs are a unique contribution to the "trench truth" of the war, often contradicting dry, official historical monographs. The Polish mixture of reckless courage, indiscipline, ill-conceived initiative, a desire to stand out and specifically understood tactics aroused mixed feelings among Canadians. Where Skibinsky saw "excellent knowledge of tactics and the most effective use of them," Canadians saw something else:

Their soldiers were excellent, but the army needed discipline, and their hatred made them a very problematic ally in battle. Both the Poles and our division were ordered to act with armored formations - starting at the exact time indicated and the end when the precisely indicated goals were achieved. This was done in order to enlist reliable cover for the flanks. The attack went ahead, the goals were achieved - then we stopped to strengthen on new lines. But the Poles refused to obey and continued to advance - thus, they exposed their left flank. After waiting for them to advance far enough in the center, the Germans went to their rear, cut them off from the main forces and began to destroy the Poles in parts. Our reserve armored regiment was ordered to come to the rescue and remove the survivors from the encirclement, which resulted in tangible losses in equipment and tank crews for us. They did this once - and we helped them out. A few days later, they again acted in a similar way - and again this resulted in the loss of half of our tanks and crews for us, when our regiment went to their rescue. When they did this for the third time, as far as I know, the general commander of our division notified the corps headquarters that he was sending the regiment to the rescue - but for the last time he was giving such an order to the units entrusted to him. If the Poles do this again, he will no longer send them any help, and damn them - let them get out as they can. As a result, the Poles no longer acted in this way, but our general was recalled from the active army back to Canada, to an administrative position. What a fucking injustice to send a great line commander to hang around in the rear.

Why did the demons of World War II in Western Europe suddenly return to Poland so many years later?

This whole unpleasant story actually dragged on latently for decades. But in 2000 it was rethought.

That year the Polish translation of Stephen Ambrose's book was released "Citizens Soldiers" (Citizen Soldiers). In Polish translation - "Citizens in uniform" (Obywatele w mundurach). There you can find an excerpt from a conversation between the already mentioned John Colby, which took place in Chambois between Captain Laughlin Waters of the 90th American Infantry Division and Polish soldiers escorting prisoners who, according to earlier Polish-American agreements, were supposed to deliver Waters 1,5 –2 thousand, but brought - only 200 and said that the rest were shot.

What's unusual?

No one in Poland was surprised, no one was indignant, no one on this occasion began to demand any answers to this question, shocking for the Polish mentality. Democratic public opinion was gagged. And the veil of silence fell over this whole story, according to the principle - "quieter over this grave", which in this case is far from imagery.

Polish veterans of the 1st Armored Division have publicly denied these conversations in Chambois, accusing both Western historians and Polish journalists of lying.

Meanwhile, the authenticity of this conversation is easily confirmed even today by unbiased historians and journalists. As a long-term researcher of the history of the battles for Chambois and an informal consultant to a large team checking all the details of the conflict over the capture of this city, I researched it myself. The conversation took place at the estate of the Buquet couple and in the presence of many witnesses, including Denise Bucke, who spoke English.

Whether anyone likes it or not, at least one report published in the United States on the execution of prisoners of war by Poles in Chambois has become known in the world. And there is no getting away from him.

However, according to the Polish side, the Chambois problem does not exist.

On the other hand, there is a huge problem of Polish public opinion ignorance of the real picture of the battle in Normandy, which is directly superimposed on the gigantic problem of pathological myth-making on the theme of the Polish army, as the only armed force in the history of mankind, not affected by baseness and criminal acts. This, in turn, coincides with the inability of the Poles to assimilate the slightest but negative historical information about themselves.

If we add to this the perception of World War II in the West through the prism of fiction films, all these "Kelly's Heroes", "Dirty Dozen", "Weapons of Navarona" and other "Where the eagles don't fly", as well as the underdeveloped market of solid translated literature on the topic of World War II, it should be stated that in the imagination of the Poles, the war in the Western European theater of operations has turned, if not into a farce, then into some fanfare - akin to stories about cowboys and Indians.

There is a lot of food, drink and women. There - cool military equipment, clean uniforms, serviceable supplies. And only weather whims occasionally interfere with the good mood or plans of military strategists. Any information other than these stereotypes would be shocking and implausible for Poles.

However, there are no such wars.

Just as there are no wars that come out with clean hands, regardless of whether they are fighting on the right side or on the wrong side.
Author:
Photos used:
History of the combat path of the 1st armored division (Archive of General Sikorsky)
147 comments
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 7 2021 05: 33
    +6
    Could the Poles have shot prisoners?

    They could: the Nazis caused too much hatred by their crimes.

    Yes, it's not good, but rarely what war exceeded the brutality of WWII
    1. ABC-schütze
      ABC-schütze April 7 2021 12: 44
      +9
      The question is not whether the Poles "could" shoot the prisoners (even the Germans, even the Red Army men ...), or "could not." There are enough precedents on this subject during any war. And the question is why the Poles, after the collapse of the USSR, who violently took up the "rethinking" of history (in particular, the reasons and organizers of the outbreak of World War II in EUROPE ...), prefer to actively "poke their fingers" in all directions. But they are extremely unwilling, calmly, to go to the mirror ...
  2. Catfish
    Catfish April 7 2021 06: 11
    +9
    Interesting material, I do not presume to justify or judge anyone, but the author is absolutely right about one thing:
    This, in turn, coincides with the inability of the Poles to assimilate the slightest but negative historical information about themselves.

    Judging by my own communication with Poles who worked or studied in the Union, normal and sociable people immediately turned into hysterics, as soon as the topic of the Second World War was touched upon. True, no one touched on Falaise's story in conversations, there were enough other topics.
    1. wkat
      wkat April 7 2021 09: 22
      0
      You can replace Poles with people, and nothing will change at all
      1. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze April 7 2021 12: 20
        +5
        And why "replace" them with some abstract "people"? .. You, for a start, replace them, say, with Soviet people. And no emotional tantrums on their part will be seen ...
        1. wkat
          wkat April 7 2021 14: 29
          -4
          Especially they were not in the article about Polish chauvinists and Russian benefactors.
          1. ABC-schütze
            ABC-schütze April 7 2021 14: 46
            +6
            And is it right, HABITUALLY changing the topic, so briskly to "jump" from some "ordinary people", ie among the common people, banal "tram passengers" (to whom you turned the arrows, in your comment, wishing to "level everyone" and avoid discussing some objectively existing "features" of the Polish national mentality) to those who "write articles"? .. it does not seem that both of them are, after all, quite different "people"? .. Why did you "suddenly" jump away from the layman and proceed to assessments expressed by one or another, Soviet or ANTI-Soviet, Russian or ANTI-Russian, PRO-Polish or ANTI-Polish "semi-official"? .. In any case, as an intelligible objection to my comment on your post. Even TWO comments ... This is clearly not rolling ... That's what my teacher said ...
      2. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze April 7 2021 12: 24
        +6
        By the way, and the same post-war "ordinary Germans" reacted and react when the above-mentioned topics on the Second World War were raised, in a completely different way than the Poles. You cannot escape from the peculiarities of the "eternally offended" national character ...
      3. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 09
        +2
        seems to be correct, but not yet succeed. so far it has been possible to replace people with Poles.
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 09: 26
      +8
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Interesting material, I do not presume to justify or judge anyone, but the author is absolutely right about one thing:
      This, in turn, coincides with the inability of the Poles to assimilate the slightest but negative historical information about themselves.

      Of course. Do we know how to calmly perceive any negative information about ourselves? Everyone sacralizes their version of history - what's new?
      1. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze April 7 2021 12: 48
        +1
        "Something", we do not know how. And, I would like to hope, we will not study ... But, documented, objectively meaningful and reasoned, we can quite ...
      2. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze April 7 2021 12: 53
        +6
        By the way, clarify, if it does not make it difficult, who is it actually, such "we"? .. Gorbachev and Yakovlev, who actively threw a shaft of tendentious and opportunisticly selected negative "texture", under the guise of "glasnost", was this "we" ?. . Or "they"? ..
      3. Catfish
        Catfish April 7 2021 14: 22
        +3
        Of course. Do we know how to calmly perceive any negative information about ourselves?

        Except of direct insults, of course. I'm only talking about myself. I don't care what strangers or half-familiar people will say about me. And if the negative comes from close people, then there is nothing to be offended, you just need to think about why you get gingerbread from friends and how to live on so that this does not happen again.
        It seemed to me that to you, Epitaphich, it is absolutely up to the icon lamp what someone will say about you. drinks
      4. Doliva63
        Doliva63 April 7 2021 20: 03
        +1
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Interesting material, I do not presume to justify or judge anyone, but the author is absolutely right about one thing:
        This, in turn, coincides with the inability of the Poles to assimilate the slightest but negative historical information about themselves.

        Of course. Do we know how to calmly perceive any negative information about ourselves? Everyone sacralizes their version of history - what's new?

        But still. Where and when did the Red Army shoot fifteen hundred prisoners?
    3. Constanty
      Constanty April 7 2021 09: 33
      +9
      I have a completely different opinion, dear namesake. You can see this, for example, on VO, how sensitive Russians are to the slightest criticism, and besides the monumental image of the Great Patriotic War.

      In addition to the heroism of many, many, in every army, in every country that participated in this war, there were cases of meanness, atrocities, treason. I emphasize - in each.

      And this is not an auction, but rather a sad reflection and an excuse to prevent a new war. War is evil.
      1. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze April 7 2021 13: 03
        +5
        Excuse me, but who, by definition, can “criticize” the USSR for its victory in the Great Patriotic War? general watering "... You assure that war is" evil "? .. And you want to" prevent a new war "? .. Well, nothing is easier ... Remember the USSR with a kind word. And return, for a start, to the BASIC PRINCIPLE of "inviolability of post-war borders" in Europe, after the Second World War. It formed the basis of ALL EUROPEAN adopted Helsinki agreements. And if you have enough courage, try, before that, to comprehend and acknowledge publicly, "publicly" and frankly, who put their hands on the undermining of the mentioned principle ... AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE? ..
        1. wkat
          wkat April 7 2021 14: 30
          -2
          And for September 17, can you criticize?
          1. ABC-schütze
            ABC-schütze April 7 2021 14: 55
            +3
            Whom to "criticize"? .. And for what? .. To those who OFFICIALLY, at the request of the Romanian authorities, having resigned from themselves, before crossing the border, fled to Romania? .. Having abandoned the country and the army? .. Or those who gave the order not to resist the "Soviets" and to retreat to Romania? .. And is it worth it, by definition, to "criticize" anyone without a PRELIMINARY and OBJECTIVE-SCIENTIFIC assessment of the cause-and-effect relationships to the mentioned "17" that led? ...
          2. Kwas
            Kwas April 7 2021 17: 02
            +4
            Yes please! Lay out your (Western, Polish) version of events, and we will criticize. Based on a historical approach and documents.
      2. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze April 7 2021 13: 13
        +7
        In short, don't swap themes. Transferring arrows to saving "there were cases" ... This is, first of all, about an objective assessment of the OBJECTIVES and POLICIES of the involved state actors. And only this objective assessment, further, will make it possible to judge either about "individual cases" (manifestation of emotions), or, about a deliberate, national, racial and political genocide ... As the teacher told us, today, the international Nuremberg Tribunal. And I am not at all surprised by the fact that in Warsaw, Washington and other "Europe", after the collapse of the USSR, their decisions are practically not remembered. Unlike, say, Moscow, where his decisions were always remembered and remembered ...
      3. Catfish
        Catfish April 7 2021 14: 37
        +6
        Kostya, hello. hi
        So not everyone and not everywhere stupidly repeat what they have been hammered into their brains by the Politprom since childhood, and here, in VO, there are also enough normal people. Constructive criticism - please, but outright lies are better off, not everyone is absolutely illiterate in the sense of history.
        If you want my opinion on Falaise frankly - Polish soldiers did not need to take anyone prisoner, they had the right to take revenge on the Germans for what they had been doing on the territory of their country for several years. I say it sincerely.
        Almost all men, from sergeant to general, fought in my family on my paternal side, and I had heard enough of this that not a single paper could stand it. War hardens people, especially those who have lost their entire family, it is impossible to judge such people.
        As for the guys from Poland, with whom I spoke, the main stumbling block was the Warsaw Uprising, well, they did not want to listen to any arguments. It is a pity that no one here undertakes to frankly and objectively cover those events, this is a painfully slippery topic.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty April 7 2021 15: 20
          +1
          Hi Kostya hi

          I am not saying that everyone is the same. I believe that this is worth and should be discussed even on complex topics. Hence my presence here.
          I believe that prisoners should not be shot under any circumstances, and this is a crime, even if you can try to understand the reasons for this behavior, and the fact that after many years of a terrible war, human life has become much cheaper, and morality has disappeared.

          This needs to be talked about and condemned. Moreover, no one hides this in Poland. Unfortunately, the Poles were not saints. I just doubt Falaise himself. This is not obvious and based on dubious evidence.
          The Warsaw Uprising is actually a complex topic, and my compatriots are arguing with themselves. Some people see a zero-one situation and this is wrong.
          I personally feel pain and irritation at the diminishing heroism of Berling's soldiers who crossed and fought on Chernyakov.
          They also fought for the freedom of Warsaw and Poland.

          And the role of Stalin and the USSR? The authorities of the USSR should think about what is good for the USSR, the French authorities for France, etc.
          This is how this world works.

          I can discuss this - I have no problem with discussions about history and other points of view, even if I am often annoyed by the current narrative.
        2. Kwas
          Kwas April 7 2021 17: 08
          +3
          Quote: Sea Cat
          If you want my opinion on Falaise frankly - the Polish fighters did not need to take anyone prisoner at all, they had the right to take revenge on the Germans for what they had been doing on the territory of their country for several years.

          Well, if we approximate it on ours, it means that we obviously would have to just cut out all the German soldiers. In my opinion it would be wrong, because they were different ...
          But to arrange a hunt for all specific geeks after the war, and all over the earth (roughly how the Jews did it), was definitely worth it, and more than that, it was necessary as a lesson for the future.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 7 2021 17: 51
            +4
            War hardens people, especially those who have lost their entire family, it is impossible to judge such people.

            I have already written about this and only meant it. A person who has lost everything that was most important in his life, the thought of observing some kind of incomprehensible convention for him could not arise. Moreover, the radio and newspapers from day to day spoke literally with the following calls: "Kill the German !!!"
      4. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 15
        +1
        Pan, correct me, pan, if I'm wrong, sir, but after all, except for you, sir, no one has officially declared an information war on Russia for the whole world. no one except you, sir, has elevated the falsification of history to the rank of state historical policy.
    4. Hlavaty
      Hlavaty April 7 2021 10: 00
      +5
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Interesting stuff,

      Only for some reason it starts with an outright lie:
      In most parts of the world, Holocaust denial is a punishable criminal offense.

      The author can cite figures proving that such countries are "the majority"?
      1. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 20
        0
        it is easier to list those countries where it is not prohibited - Iran, Turkey and Arab countries. oh yes - also Bosnia and Herzegovina.
        1. Hlavaty
          Hlavaty April 7 2021 17: 52
          +3
          Have you already been banned on Wikipedia?
          For example, in the USA, Norway, Denmark, there is no such persecution. In many others, the wording is not the Holocaust, but the Nazi genocide is a broader concept.
          Why is this protrusion of the Holocaust? Other nations that did not suffer? Slavs, for example, killed more than Jews.
          1. Former naval person
            April 7 2021 18: 07
            -1
            yeah, and I was also banned on the bench at the entrance. is also a source of information. in the united states, it is the denial of the holocaust that is prosecuted. and is persecuted in Canada. and in the United States there is a special agency that deals with tracing cases of Holocaust denial. but about Norway ... gee! Tell David Irving how Holocaust denial is not persecuted in Norway.
            1. Hlavaty
              Hlavaty April 7 2021 18: 12
              +1
              Why, when it comes to the Holocaust, should all non-Jews shut up and believe everything they are told without hesitation?
              But when it comes to other destroyed peoples, it is allowed to think and argue.
              Doesn't this question seem strange to you?
              And is not the prohibition to argue with any point of view discrimination or a sign of totalitarianism?
              1. Former naval person
                April 7 2021 18: 31
                -2
                the point, you see, is Jurassic, that ...
                Czechs, Poles, Russians, Serbs, Greeks were supposed to be destroyed in a certain perspective, after they would have worked as slaves to the Aryan masters, and those who survived were supposed to be Germanized or evicted beyond the Urals.
                Jews were subject to complete, immediate and unconditional extermination, regardless of the military-political situation.
                feel the difference.
                1. Hlavaty
                  Hlavaty April 7 2021 19: 56
                  +4
                  As a result, "Czechs, Poles, Russians, Serbs, Greeks" and others were killed several times more than Jews.
                  Feel the difference.
    5. Undecim
      Undecim April 7 2021 10: 10
      +11
      Konstantin, the author made another sketch, taking as a basis the fact that took place and distorting some of the details in the right way. There is no conspiracy of silence in Poland regarding the shooting of German prisoners in Chambois. The issue is being discussed publicly, moreover, not only on forums, but also in official thematic publications. In 2002, the topic was discussed in several issues on the pages of Mars magazine: Problematyka i historia wojskowości: studia i materiały (Military history and problems).
      In 2003, a similar discussion took place in the journal of the Ministry of Defense "Polska Zbrojna", in the same year an article in the newspaper "Kulisy" "Victory stained - In France, General Maczek's soldiers killed 1500 prisoners."
      In 2007, the topic came up again against the background of accusations of the Polish contingent in Afghanistan of killing civilians.
      Naturally, the majority of the audience is inclined to conclude that if such a fact took place, then the soldier can be understood.
      Similar moments in history took place for all the belligerents, without exception. And everyone tries not to touch such moments without the need.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 7 2021 14: 43
        +3
        Vic, I was just curious to read, that's all. By the way, history gave the allies a chance to arrange a good pogrom for the Germans there, but this never happened, there was no such catastrophe as at Stalingrad, although there was an opportunity to arrange it, their generals did not know how to fight, since by the 44th year ours had learned.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim April 7 2021 14: 51
          +7
          It is interesting to read, of course, only the manure flying from all sides is very distracting. It seems that the site is hosting a no-name competition for throwing at a fan.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 7 2021 15: 39
            +6
            ... manure flying from all sides ...

            Well, what can you do, each fertilizes the soil in his own way. laughing
    6. Kwas
      Kwas April 7 2021 16: 55
      +3
      Their arguments about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact are especially touching and naive.
      1. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 23
        -3
        them, who is this? and if you disagree with them - write. and we honor.
        1. Kwas
          Kwas April 7 2021 17: 38
          +5
          One of my acquaintances is a Pole. Reasoning at the level of housewives, obviously from some kind of propaganda. They say there were neighbors, and then two neighbors conspired and killed the third.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri April 7 2021 20: 34
            0
            Quote: Kwas
            One of my acquaintances is a Pole.

            This is you, Pan Vasilkovsky, not about me by chance? Look, you and I are still in the mountains, to go this Saturday. I can take Pig Cut with me too ... laughing
            1. Kwas
              Kwas April 8 2021 10: 54
              +1
              Yes, Pan Bagrinovsky, you still need to prove your noble origin, look, Rurikovich-Gedeminovich was found! And that comrade, you can immediately see - a clear-minded gentleman, and by the shuttlecock he is not like you better!
  3. Moskovit
    Moskovit April 7 2021 06: 12
    +9
    Vae victis! The Germans did not stand on ceremony with the Poles at the beginning of the war, the Poles with the Germans at the end. What goes around comes around.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 7 2021 08: 33
      +2
      Quote: Moskovit
      The Germans did not stand on ceremony with the Poles at the beginning of the war, the Poles with the Germans at the end. What goes around comes around

      I think that our grandfathers and fathers treated German and European
      invaders. It was necessary to act with their own methods.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey April 7 2021 09: 05
        +6
        Quote: tihonmarine
        I think that our grandfathers and fathers treated German and European
        invaders. It was necessary to act with their own methods.

        Even fighting with outright scum, you have to remain human - then you can also boldly look at your children’s eyes and the children of the defeated .. Approximately this (according to the stories of the grandfather) was told to them by the representative of the command of the 28th army near the borders of Prussia in 1945 ..
        1. Kwas
          Kwas April 7 2021 17: 14
          +3
          And it is right. But to arrange a hunt for all specific geeks after the war, and all over the earth (roughly how the Jews did it), was definitely worth it, and more than that, it was necessary as a lesson for the future. But it was not done, they did not want to spoil relations with the ally. Although after Fulton and McCarthy, one could and should have given a damn.
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey April 7 2021 17: 18
            +2
            Quote: Kwas
            But to arrange a hunt for all specific geeks after the war, and all over the globe (roughly how the Jews did it), was definitely worth it, and more than that, it was necessary as a lesson for the future.

            So in the USSR in the KGB there was a special department to search for traitors and punishers ..
            1. Kwas
              Kwas April 7 2021 17: 40
              +1
              But there was no department for the search, export and destruction of them on the territory of the Western states. How the Jews did.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey April 7 2021 17: 45
                0
                Quote: Kwas
                How the Jews did.

                One could only demand through official channels ... Otherwise, can you imagine what would have risen?
                1. Kwas
                  Kwas April 8 2021 11: 02
                  0
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Otherwise, can you imagine what would have risen?

                  I can imagine. But firstly, it was possible to refer to the same Israel, having documented, on the outrageous facts of genocide, that not only they were holocaust, and secondly, contacts with the West first of all corrupted the elite, well, why is it? Well, to firmly define your position and your righteousness is always useful, they would be respected more, and scum would stain your pants until your death!
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey April 8 2021 14: 41
                    0
                    Quote: Kwas
                    But firstly, it was possible to refer to the same Israel, having documented, on the outrageous facts of genocide, that not only they were holocaust, and secondly, contacts with the West first of all corrupted the elite, well, why is it? Well, to firmly define your position and your righteousness is always useful, they would be respected more, and scum would stain your pants until your death!

                    Do you think you did not do that?
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine April 7 2021 18: 30
          0
          Quote: mat-vey
          Even when fighting with outright scum, one must remain human - then you can also boldly look your children 's eyes on the children of the defeated.

          Yes, we now boldly look into the eyes of the defeated children. But how they look at us, we also see everything.
      2. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 29
        0
        - And I killed a German yesterday, so Karaulov gave me a shot. Yes?
        - Serves you right! - responded Komarov. - Well, people tried, they took the "language", and you beat him! Look what a shooter!
        - So I took it, - objected Leonidov.
        - You were not the only one who took it.
        - Well, okay, on the ear, - said Leonidov. - If he had not been a platoon commander, he would have rolled! Okay, let it be, ”he repeated. - But he also threatened: I will repeat it next time - I will shoot! How shoud I understand this?
        - And so and understand: do not hit the "tongue" - again instructively said Komarov.
        - And how to understand that I was still a senior political instructor? He did not tell me about the "language". He says: "Once a prisoner, then you have no right at all ... What is your right!"
      3. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 29
        -1
        - Don't put your anger in our eyes! Wait ... - he slapped on the knee, seeing that Leonidov was going to interrupt him. - You're evil! How many fascists do you have on your account? Besides a prisoner, two? And Komarov is kind, he has four!
        - Not all are written, - Leonidov answered gloomily.
        - Not all are written for everyone. Komarov also does not have everything written down. What is the price of your anger? Out of anger that he had killed a little, he decided to add a third to the two? Beating prisoners is inexpensive anger!
        - You know a lot about my anger! - interrupted Sintsova Leonidov, in anger turning to "you".
        - I know! Sintsov cut off. Fate hardened him, stripped the last remnants of his former, pre-war softness. - Little did you see anything else! That's what!
        - Not less than yours!
        - No, less. And your first real fight, if you want to know, was in Kuzkovo!
  4. mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer April 7 2021 06: 21
    +3
    "Vae victis"
    So it was, so it will be.
  5. sergo1914
    sergo1914 April 7 2021 07: 05
    +2
    The Cannons of the Isle of Navarone is a good book. In vain the Author ran into Alistair McLean.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 7 2021 08: 36
      +1
      Quote: sergo1914
      The Cannons of the Isle of Navarone is a good book.

      Not a bad book, although a lot of fiction.
      1. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 32
        0
        everything is fiction. no history, adventure reading. it's like teaching the history of France in the xvii century from the "three musketeers".
  6. Cowbra
    Cowbra April 7 2021 07: 19
    +2
    Yes there are many things they do not like to remember. The same Americans do not know at close range that their heroic future president rotted more prisoners of war in concentration camps than they were killed in battles with their allies. A light pirouette - bam - and they are not prisoners of war, but "the disarmed forces of the enemy." There is no need to feed and heal, what kind of convention is there ...
    Do you think a lot of tripods even know about this?
    1. Zakirov Damir
      Zakirov Damir April 7 2021 13: 34
      +6
      Quote: Cowbra
      Yes there are many things they do not like to remember. The same Americans do not know at close range that their heroic future president rotted more prisoners of war in concentration camps than they were killed in battles with their allies. A light pirouette - bam - and they are not prisoners of war, but "the disarmed forces of the enemy." There is no need to feed and heal, what kind of convention is there ...
      Do you think a lot of tripods even know about this?

      Well done!

      Of the 866 "POWs of the Wehrmacht and SS, captured from 200 to 1.9.1939", 30.4.1945 died in captivity by the allies.

      Of the 3 "Surrendered to the allies after 708", 200 died. They were simply transferred from the category of prisoners of war to the category of internees, relieving themselves of their obligations to accommodate them, feed and sanitize. The overwhelming majority died in American captivity, who were engaged in outright genocide in relation to prisoners of war, although I do not feel much sympathy for the dead.

      And yes, that's right, 164 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers died in the ground from 000/6.6.1944/30.11.1944 to 233/000/1.1.1945 and 30.4.1945 from 1944/163/000 to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX in all three branches of the army. Data for December XNUMX - XNUMX dead in three branches of the military on both fronts. As you can see, the allies killed in captivity twice as much as they destroyed.

      Here's where to dig. The topic is forbidden, not promoted, not advertised in the Western world. The topic should be called "We ran away from the bear - we got to the wolf!"
      1. Constanty
        Constanty April 7 2021 16: 39
        +6
        The United States is saddled with the death of about 18,1 thousand people. German soldiers near Bretzenheim at the turn of April and May 1945. They died as a result of non-provision of medical care, from cold and hunger. Left in the open air, without toilets, eating grass, in inhuman confinement and immersed in their own excrement, they had little chance of survival. They were captured at their worst time in history, when shocked Americans discovered new concentration camps. The will to alleviate the plight of the prisoners waned.
        In the Rhine POW camps, which are only under the control of the US Army, about 50 people have died as a result of the appalling living conditions. captives. All Western allies bear the burden of 000 men. German soldiers who did not return home from the front west of the Elbe and whose fate is not fully understood. They died in the thousands in prisoner-of-war camps, but it is assumed that a significant number of them were killed.
      2. Constanty
        Constanty April 7 2021 16: 45
        +3
        On December 21, 1944, the commander of the 328th Infantry Regiment ordered the execution of captured SS and paratroopers. The vengeance machine started. On December 27, in the Chenoni area, soldiers of the US 11th Panzer Division shot and killed 21 German soldiers despite the white flag. On January 1, 1945, soldiers of the 36th American Panzer Regiment cold-bloodedly shot 60 Waffen-SS soldiers. It should be clarified here that at that time the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe were sent to the German units of the Waffen-SS as a supplement. But the allies did not know about it.

        Further executions of captured Waffen SS soldiers (and not only) were associated with injuries sustained by young American soldiers at the sight of liberated concentration camps. The most famous war crime took place on April 29, 1945 after the liberation of the Dachau camp. They saw a crematorium and unburned human remains, and a train with prisoners evacuated from Buchenwald stood at the junction near the camp. Most of them were dead, and the rest of the survivors were in a dying state. Upon learning of this, the commander of the 157th Infantry Regiment of the 45th Thunderbird Infantry Division, Colonel F.L. Sparks ordered the execution of 122 SS men captured the day before on the railway sidings. Interestingly, these were not soldiers. camp staff, but young men recently recruited into the Waffen-SS. For several hours, complete chaos reigned in the camp. An example of this was the shooting of 346 German prisoners of war by Lieutenant Jack Bushhead with heavy machine guns. ... In May 1945, the US 7th Army's attorney ordered an investigation. The case was investigated by Lieutenant Colonel Whitakers, who, after investigation, filed a motion to bring Colonel Sparks to trial. The prosecutor's opinion was rejected and the entire investigation was classified by the military governor of Bavaria, General Georg Patton.
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan April 24 2021 21: 22
          0
          considering that the United States was doing in Vietnam only 10 years later, right after the French, also famous humanists and fighters for human rights and democracy, what you described is childish pranks request
  7. Free wind
    Free wind April 7 2021 07: 46
    +2
    They shot, well, to hell with them. And what to do with them? Should I dance a polka with the Germans?
  8. Avior
    Avior April 7 2021 08: 07
    +4
    Some kind of throw on the fan: ((((
    The fact that there were facts of the execution of prisoners is not a secret, but little is written on this topic. For some reason, the car decided to write about the Poles, and even with references to the Americans. The author is not aware that the Americans had similar cases?
    Did the author hear about the release of Dachau?
    Or does he think that our partisans gave the captured Germans increased food?

    But the author's claim to the globality of judgments is especially striking.
    If we add to this the perception of World War II in the West through the prism of fiction films, all these "Heroes of Kelly", "Dirty Dozen", "Navarona's Cannons" and other "Where the eagles do not fly" ... There is a lot of food, booze and women ... There - cool military equipment, clean uniforms, serviceable supplies ...

    Did the author read McLean at all?
    How could you write such nonsense?
    The author is aware of the fact that McLean is a World War II veteran, a member of polar convoys?
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 7 2021 08: 51
      +7
      Dead serpent does not climb into the sand
      Dead goldfinch does not chirp
      Dead Fritz does not go to war. To the East
      Only the dead Fritz does not go to fight in the East
      Ay-i-i-yay! Fritz killed
      Fritz was killed. Killed
      Ay-i-i-yay! For no reason, Poles, soaked
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 08: 54
      +5
      Quote: Avior
      Did the author hear about the release of Dachau?

      In addition, the famous farce with the "Malmedy trial" took place in Dachau. The kosher American Themis in the person of Colonel Rosenfeld did not bother too much with the evidence base. Clearing justice - the Germans were given walls and terms in a 1: 1 ratio with the "brutally shot" GI. It's funny (and symbolic) that the investigator in the Malmedy case, Lt Perl, later, already in the States, sat down for 16 years for breaking all the fingers of his fiancee on both hands.
    3. Constanty
      Constanty April 7 2021 09: 26
      +10
      I've written about this before. There are many documented cases of Poles shooting prisoners, both in 1920 and during World War II. Order of General Sikorski, or not scolding prisoners from the 15th Latvian SS division by soldiers of the 1st Polish infantry division of Tadeusz Kosciuszko, after the discovery in Podgajach, war crimes against Polish prisoners of war, when Latvians burned alive in a barn, tied up with a telephone cable, 32 soldiers of the Army Polish from the 4th company of the 3rd infantry regiment.
      Of course, as a Pole, I am ashamed of this.

      Other examples can be cited, but no one hides this. Falaise is one of the least obvious, questionable and almost undocumented.

      And this is not an excuse that this was true for every army - USA, UK, Canada or USSR - I can provide you with DOCUMENTED examples for each. It was a terrible war.

      The author chose Falaise for political and cynical reasons.
      The idea was to impress the Poles and their alliance with the United States. Since it is good form here at the BO to write against Poland, the author guarantees himself this applause.
      And what is this gross manipulation - and what? At the end of the day, what matters is the effect
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri April 7 2021 10: 17
        +7
        Quote: Constanty
        Of course, as a Pole, I am ashamed of this.

        I don’t understand why you should be ashamed? Yes, shooting prisoners is probably not very good, but this is a war, and not everyone is able to crawl in the mud, wearing white gloves.
        Quote: Constanty
        Since it is good form here at the BO to write against Poland, the author guarantees himself this applause.
        And what is this gross manipulation - and what? At the end of the day, what matters is the effect

        There is nothing you can do about it. Everything is as usual: "Pans (politicians) fight, but slaves' forelocks crack."
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 11: 04
        +8
        Quote: Constanty
        The idea was to impress the Poles and their alliance with the United States. Since it is good form here at the BO to write against Poland, the author guarantees himself this applause.

        Absolutely right. On VO it is enough to shout "Poles !!" - and the guys immediately come running with shovels of feces.
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan April 24 2021 21: 34
          -1
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Absolutely right. On VO it is enough to shout "Poles !!" - and the guys immediately come running with shovels of feces.

          hmm ... I wonder what they should run into when mentioning the Poles demolishing monuments to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers who died during the liberation of Poland. or not liberating? or, as it is fashionable to say in Poland now, "these are the Soviet occupiers"?
          decide in your liberal get-together, Poland was liberated or not? if not, the army of the region cooperated quite successfully with the Nazis, then Poland is not a victim but an accomplice of German crimes wink
      4. Kwas
        Kwas April 7 2021 17: 23
        +3
        Quote: Constanty
        Since it is good form here at the BO to write against Poland, the author guarantees himself this applause.

        Let's put it bluntly - Poles and Russians don't really like each other, but in my opinion the author's applause was not very good, some sort of watery. We don't like Nazis much more.
    4. Former naval person
      April 7 2021 17: 40
      -3
      the author is in the know. but you are not aware that the Americans openly discuss such uncomfortable issues. and Canadians are discussing. and the Poles are shouting that it's all Putin, gays and Jews are to blame. thanks for not braiding the covid. yet.
      1. Avior
        Avior April 7 2021 17: 57
        +3
        Did you write for Americans and Canadians?
        1. Former naval person
          April 7 2021 18: 02
          0
          for Canadians only.
          1. Avior
            Avior April 7 2021 18: 38
            0
            for Canadians only.

            Then, probably, you had to print material in the Canadian edition in the Canadian dialect - perhaps there this material would be perceived differently.
            And you wrote it in Russian and offered to publish it on an opus resource - that's natural and the result was a sketch for the fan.
            1. Former naval person
              April 7 2021 18: 41
              -1
              you will not believe - I do it on an ongoing basis. and from 1997 to 2017. I even had my own website on the Internet.
              1. Avior
                Avior April 7 2021 20: 24
                0
                sketches on the fans?
                understandably....
  9. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine April 7 2021 08: 28
    0
    Poles shot German prisoners in cold blood, regardless of their nationality - even if they were Austrians or Poles from territories annexed to the Third Reich.

    The Poles did the right thing, I do not blame them.
    1. apro
      apro April 7 2021 09: 29
      -4
      Quote: tihonmarine
      The Poles did the right thing, I do not blame them.

      But zeal in direct battles with the Germans did not show itself.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 10: 29
        +4
        Quote: apro
        But zeal in direct battles with the Germans did not show itself.

        And the "Red Poppies of Monte Cassino"?

        1. apro
          apro April 7 2021 10: 32
          -4
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          And the "Red Poppies of Monte Cassino"?

          Song only. Rest of Aussies. Americans and Moroccans.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 10: 53
            +3
            Quote: apro
            Song only. Rest of Aussies. Americans and Moroccans.

            Norway 1940, France 1940, Tobruk 1941, Gazala 1941 and further to Tunisia, Battle of Britain, Italian campaign, Normandy. In Operation Ogorod, the Polish parachute brigade lost a quarter of its strength.
            1. apro
              apro April 7 2021 11: 04
              -3
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Norway 1940, France 1940, Tobruk 1941, Gazala 1941 and further to Tunisia, Battle of Britain, Italian campaign, Normandy.

              Also say that the Poles took Berlin as a unified one. They were always on the sidelines. Especially Anders's army. And did not show itself in anything.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 11: 20
                +3
                Quote: apro
                Also tell me that the Poles took Berlin into a single one.

                Why is this petty distortion?
                Quote: apro
                have always been second

                Well? What does it change?
                Quote: apro
                especially the army of Anders. and did not show itself in anything.

                Anders's army fought in Italy.
                1. apro
                  apro April 7 2021 11: 40
                  -4
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Why is this petty distortion?

                  Not a trifle. Poles even have a song on this topic.
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Well? What does it change?

                  Much. Poles' claim to the main victims somehow dims against the background of an obvious unwillingness to fight the Nazis.

                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Anders army fought in Italy

                  He also argues. Only success is not visible. When a battalion of green devils held back this army.
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 12: 04
                    +4
                    Quote: apro
                    Not a trifle. Poles even have a song on this topic.

                    Well, and in our main military epic in the film The Last Assault "there is on this topic." AND?
                    1. apro
                      apro April 7 2021 12: 35
                      0
                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Well, and in our main military epic in the film The Last Assault "there is on this topic." AND?

                      So these are the communists. They, under the leadership of the IVS of Stalin. Fought. And today these Poles in Poland itself are considered traitors to the national interests of Poland. These are not the same Poles.
                      1. Former naval person
                        April 7 2021 18: 14
                        -1
                        wrong poles.
              2. Kwas
                Kwas April 7 2021 17: 27
                +2
                Anders' army was thrown by dear allies into a well-fortified monastery as cannon fodder. The Poles washed in blood, as any brave warriors would. Respect.
                1. Former naval person
                  April 7 2021 18: 16
                  -1
                  Anders threw his army into a well-fortified monastery. over the head of General Sosnkovsky. and the monastery was surrounded and taken according to the plan of General June. the Poles occupied it when the Germans left it fearing encirclement.
            2. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine April 7 2021 11: 23
              +6
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              In Operation Ogorod, the Polish parachute brigade lost a quarter of its strength.

              Well, the Polish 1st and 2nd armies, as part of the red army.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 11: 32
                +4
                Quote: tihonmarine
                Well, the Polish 1st and 2nd armies, as part of the red army.

                Well, as far as I understand, the claims and accusations of cowardice concern mainly those Poles who fought under the leadership of the Allies. Well, of course - the huntsmen Bohusha-Shishko, who distinguished themselves near Narvik, initially prepared for participation in the Winter War, but did not have time.
                And "our" Poles and their tank "Rudy", of course, are beyond criticism)
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan April 24 2021 21: 50
                  0
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Well, as far as I understand, the claims and accusations of cowardice concern mainly those Poles who fought under the leadership of the Allies.

                  um ... this is the occupation German administration in Belarus, with which the AK cooperated and participated in the fight against the partisans, are they "allies"?
                  what is this mess in your head? Ludov's army with Polish units in the Red Army, and Andres's army with AK - these are two big differences. the former fought against the fascists, the latter either refused to fight the fascists like Andres, or directly collaborated with the fascists. and let me remind you that the former, friends of the USSR, are now considered traitors in Poland, and the latter, friends of the fascists, are considered heroes.
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 24 2021 22: 15
                    0
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    this is the occupation German administration in Belarus, with which the AK cooperated and participated in the fight against the partisans, are they "allies"?

                    You first take the trouble to understand what you read, sir. When you master this, let's move on to the question of 'porridge'. In your head, it is quite rich, apparently, based on this:
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    Ludov's army with Polish units in the Red Army, and Andres's army with AK - these are two big differences. the former fought against the fascists, the latter either refused to fight the fascists like Andres, or directly collaborated with the fascists.

                    Especially this pearl:
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    and the second, friends of the fascists, are considered heroes.

                    Which fascists were the friends of Anders Army? Where did you come from?
                    1. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan April 24 2021 22: 35
                      0
                      gorgeous pearl! good
                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Which fascists were the friends of Anders Army? Where did you come from?

                      tell me, why in your pearls you only remembered Andres and forgot about the AK? facts are inconvenient?
                      Aren't you ashamed to pull so rudely out of context? this is a small post, about 10 lines, and your forgery is visible to the naked eye. wink
                      Tell us, why are you so persistently trying to merge the Poles who fought against the Nazis as part of the Red Army and the Poles who refused to fight against the Nazis and the Poles who fought together with the Nazis? for the same Poles, the difference is obvious. don't you? Or are you here those who were friends with the Nazis decided to wash? belay
                      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 25 2021 09: 09
                        0
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        Poles who fought with the Nazis?

                        This is when the AK people fought together with the fascists? What is this nonsense for?
        2. Constanty
          Constanty April 7 2021 11: 19
          +6
          And Lenino 12 X 1943? 510 killed, 1776 wounded and 776 missing, and Berlin 1945? - 539 wounded and killed soldiers A Bologna 1945? - where the Poles fought, knowing that they had been betrayed by their Western allies - 234 killed and 1228 wounded. These are just examples.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 11: 26
            +5
            Quote: Constanty
            where the Poles fought knowing they were betrayed by their Western allies

            They were always betrayed. What did Gen.Denin say to Sosnkovsky when he asked for help with the evacuation from Dunkirk? Hire ships yourself, pay in gold, or give up like the French. Although in Lorraine, it was the Poles of the 2nd frontier post of Prugar-Ketlinga who covered the retreat of the French to the Swiss border.
        3. Former naval person
          April 7 2021 17: 42
          -2
          the myth of monte cassino has already been discussed here.
    2. Constanty
      Constanty April 7 2021 11: 11
      +4
      Poles in cold blood shot German prisonersregardless of their nationality - even if they were Austrians or Poles from territories annexed to the Third Reich.


      I wonder where, then 89000 Poles who previously served in the German army were in the Polish armed forces in the West.
  10. yehat2
    yehat2 April 7 2021 09: 29
    -3
    The Poles never hesitated to shoot prisoners - either in the war with the Soviet republic after the invasion of Ukraine, during ww2, and even earlier, such reprisals were commonplace, even under the crusaders. But they do not recognize a single such episode.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey April 7 2021 09: 38
      -3
      Quote: yehat2
      The Poles never hesitated to shoot prisoners - either in the war with the Soviet republic after the invasion of Ukraine, during ww2, and even earlier, such reprisals were commonplace, even under the crusaders. But they do not recognize a single such episode.

      And what were they doing in Czechoslovakia ...
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 10: 00
        +4
        Quote: mat-vey
        And what were they doing in Czechoslovakia ...

        And what were they doing in Czechoslovakia?
        1. mr.ZinGer
          mr.ZinGer April 7 2021 10: 26
          +3
          I also wonder what the Poles were doing in Czechoslovakia?
        2. mat-vey
          mat-vey April 7 2021 11: 30
          -4
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          And what were they doing in Czechoslovakia?

          Ethnic cleansing was carried out during the seizure of Cieszyn Selesia ..
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 11: 32
            +5
            Quote: mat-vey
            Ethnic cleansing was carried out during the seizure of Cieszyn Selesia ..

            More details, please.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey April 7 2021 17: 07
              -1
              In January 1919, the Czechs were able to quite successfully screw up the Poles, freeing the Cieszyn region from them. In response, what is now commonly called "hybrid warfare" began. On the territory of Czechoslovakia, the Poles constantly threw armed militants who blew up railway tracks (a transport artery connecting the Czech Republic with Slovakia passed through Teshin), killed police officers and organized riots. This state terror lasted until October 1938 - when Poland again attacked Czechoslovakia, this time quite successfully occupying the rich, industrialized northern lands.
              A policy of aggressive polonization began in the new territories. According to the memoirs of General Vehirek, “the Poles mercilessly persecuted the Czechs, terrorized them with layoffs, threw them out of their homes, and confiscated property. Everything that was Czech was destroyed. The Czech language and even greetings were prohibited. Greeting "Nazdar" was fined 4 zlotys and so the Czechs began to greet each other: "Four zlotys!" Chekhov was beaten in the streets for no reason. "

              All this ended with the fact that more than 30 thousand Czechs and about 5 thousand Germans left Saolzie, who also got nuts.
              So what began in 1945 ...
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 17: 23
                +1
                so where is it
                Quote: mat-vey
                ethnic cleansing

                ?
                Czechs in relation to the Sudeten Germans were engaged in the same pressure - the prohibition of the language, the closure of schools, the prohibition to hold public office, the requirement of loyalty and so on. But no one says something about ethnic cleansing in the Sudetenland, no?
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey April 7 2021 17: 27
                  -1
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  But no one says something about ethnic cleansing in the Sudetenland, no?

                  Well, wikipedia for example?
                  so or
                  https://germania-online.diplo.de/ru-dz-ru/geschichte/Gedenkdaten/sudetendeutsche/1930508
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 17: 30
                    +1
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    so or

                    After WWII? We seem to have been talking about interbellum. Your phrase
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    And what were they doing in Czechoslovakia ...
                    was about this period, right?
                    1. mat-vey
                      mat-vey April 7 2021 17: 38
                      -1
                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      so or

                      After WWII? We seem to have been talking about interbellum. Your phrase
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      And what were they doing in Czechoslovakia ...
                      was about this period, right?

                      This is how the term appeared after the war ...
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 April 7 2021 09: 51
      +1
      Poles never hesitated to shoot prisoners

      The Germans were not shy either. Americans about a million captured Germans rotted away in the camps are silent about this. Language will not turn to say something against the soldiers of the Red Army, who shot prisoners.
      I believe that we should talk about just retribution. If they gave the command not to take prisoners of the infantry regiment soldiers who executed Zoya Kosomdemyanskaya, this is retribution. They shot the punishers who burned civilians alive, this is also retaliation.
      It was necessary in the camps to look for captured Fritzes who participated in war crimes and hang them publicly so that it would not be confusing.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 April 7 2021 09: 54
        +2
        the Germans were very afraid of revenge from the Soviet soldiers when the Red Army went to Germany
        and were greatly surprised that the episodes of revenge were not massive.
        Moreover, they would even consider it to some extent fair and understandable if the Red Army would kill 2-3 million civilian Germans, and precisely because this was not done, the GDR became a loyal ally of the USSR.
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 April 7 2021 15: 24
          +1
          precisely because this was not done, the GDR became a staunch ally of the USSR.

          Here I think you are exaggerating. Otherwise, the FRG would have become an ally. More political reasons.
      2. mr.ZinGer
        mr.ZinGer April 7 2021 10: 30
        -1
        Oskar Dirlewanger, beaten to death by the Polish guard, who did not wait for the verdict.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty April 7 2021 11: 25
          +5
          I don't really regret him. although there is a version that inmates killed him - see Samuel W. Mitcham jr.: "German Armed Forces 1939-1945. Armor. Ordre de Bataille." pages 178-179
      3. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine April 7 2021 11: 31
        +2
        Quote: glory1974
        It was necessary in the camps to look for captured Fritzes who participated in war crimes and hang them publicly so that it would not be confusing.

        And they searched, and found, and got what they deserved. Few have slipped through the SMERSH "sieve".
      4. EvilLion
        EvilLion April 7 2021 12: 03
        0
        Even from Soviet captivity, 300 thousand in total did not return, despite the fact that after Stalingrad there were many extremely weak, who, despite the efforts of honey. the staff did not survive. What problems do the Americans have with the content? Moreover, their main prisoners are May 45, when the war is kaput, and the surviving Germans, beaming with joy that they survived, went in formation to surrender, while the generals who got out from the command post went to shake hands with their American colleagues and negotiate the placement of their people.

        It was necessary to look for the captured Fritzes in the camps


        The obviously guilty did not reach the camps, and no one would have begun to look for what a part of which the prisoner was doing half a year ago, no time was stupid. At the front, the perception of the enemy as a fighting side was still in effect, and the rules of decency, more or less, were observed, and in some cases the parties could agree.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 15: 04
          +2
          Quote: EvilLion
          What problems do the Americans have with the content? Moreover, their main prisoners are May 45

          In fact, in Tunisia, the Allies took 240 thousand prisoners, three times more than after Stalingrad.
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion April 7 2021 15: 33
            0
            Then there was Sicily, and before Normandy they simply did not fight so actively, but even there the scale is not great.
          2. yehat2
            yehat2 April 7 2021 15: 42
            0
            but there were less than half of the Germans.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 7 2021 16: 04
              +1
              Quote: yehat2
              less than half of the Germans were there.

              and in Stalingrad, one might think, only the Germans were captured? There was also an international there.
      5. Avior
        Avior April 7 2021 16: 04
        +2
        ... If they gave the command not to take prisoners of the infantry regiment soldiers who executed Zoya Kosomdemyanskaya, this is retribution.

        Did you give the attack command?
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 April 8 2021 08: 40
          0
          Did you give the attack command?

          According to legend, such a command was given by Stalin himself. Moreover, I would like it to be true.
          But in reality, any commander knows that issuing such an order is a military crime, so you will not find any documents anywhere.
          Although in war, this happens all the time, with which he personally encountered himself.
          1. Avior
            Avior April 8 2021 09: 08
            +1
            According to legend, such a command was given by Stalin himself. Moreover, I would like it to be true.

            It seems that you are talking about Stalin's November speech in November 1941, but it concerned all the Germans, it was not connected with Kosmodemyanskaya. This is not a document or an order, strictly speaking, but as far as I understand, the troops took his instructions as an order.
            In the award sheets, they wrote directly, anyway.

            Not everyone shares your attitude to the executions of captured Germans, so I painted over the instructions on the name of the awarded person - his personality in this case is of no fundamental importance.
            hi
            1. Glory1974
              Glory1974 April 8 2021 10: 25
              0
              we are talking about Stalin's November speech in November 1941, but it concerned all the Germans, it was not connected with Kosmodemyanskaya. This is not a document or an order, strictly speaking, but as far as I understand, the troops took his instructions as an order.

              From a legal point of view, everything said by the commander is an order. There are no requests in the army, so the troops took everything correctly.
              I wrote specifically about Kosmodemyanskaya, and in a broader sense about all civilians killed by the Germans. If some military unit has stained itself with the killing of civilians, its soldiers and officers are outlawed and are not subject to capture.
              Sometimes this was the case, for example, in Voronezh, they did not take prisoners of the Hungarians, who showed a brutal attitude towards the peaceful, although there were many of them in our captivity.
              1. Avior
                Avior April 8 2021 11: 35
                -1
                The case of Kosmodemyanskaya is rather complicated, since there was a situation in which the Germans protected the houses of our people from destruction.
                As for taking prisoners ...
                It's just that I have never seen an order or instruction - to shoot the servicemen of such a particular division when captured.
                1. Glory1974
                  Glory1974 April 8 2021 12: 26
                  +1
                  The case of Kosmodemyanskaya is rather complicated, since there was a situation in which the Germans protected the houses of our people from destruction.

                  You just killed me. What does the house and everything else have to do with it? A soldier of the Red Army, after being captured, was brutally tortured and then hanged in front of all local residents!
                  What's so complicated?
                  It's just that I have never seen an order or instruction - to shoot the servicemen of such a particular division when captured.

                  Plan "Ost" to kill the civilian Slavic population. Hitler's speech, where he says that he forgives his soldiers for any crimes they committed in the East. Direct instructions to carry out mass executions in the occupied territories, etc. etc.
                  An instruction not to take commanders and commissars prisoner, but to shoot them immediately, no matter from which division.
                  If we have such documents, there is nothing to be ashamed of, because it was retribution to the Germans for the crimes they committed as part of the unit.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior April 8 2021 13: 56
                    -1
                    ... A soldier of the Red Army, after being captured, was brutally tortured and then hanged in front of all local residents!
                    What's so complicated?

                    To begin with, she refused to recognize herself as a soldier of the Red Army, she had no documents, there were no insignia on her clothes either ...
                    1. Glory1974
                      Glory1974 April 9 2021 09: 23
                      +1
                      To begin with, she refused to recognize herself as a soldier of the Red Army, she had no documents, there were no insignia on her clothes either ...

                      Yeah........
                      This circumstance allows anyone to torture to death.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior April 9 2021 16: 57
                        -1
                        You forgot what you were talking about
                        ... A soldier of the Red Army, after being captured .... What's so difficult?
            2. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan April 24 2021 22: 09
              0
              Quote: Avior
              Not everyone shares your attitude to the executions of German prisoners, so I painted over the instructions on the name of the recipient.

              and also the name of the settlement, dates and everything that could allow the identification of the document ...
              Quote: Avior
              In the award sheets, they wrote directly, anyway.

              what is this document? what does the award list have to do with it?
              funny ukrodeformation you have wassat like Soviet soldiers were awarded for shooting prisoners ... belay
              1. Avior
                Avior April 25 2021 01: 24
                +1
                This is a part of the award list for one famous person who, in my opinion, performed a feat, the analogue of which I simply have never met.
                If you leave the dates and names of settlements there, then it will not be difficult to identify this person, many have heard of his feat.
                And the question is not in him.
                And what kind of deformations you have there., I do not know, these are your problems
      6. Former naval person
        April 7 2021 17: 44
        -1
        in the commentary a little higher there was "18 thousand". now "half a million". I'm afraid to read on ...
        1. Constanty
          Constanty April 7 2021 18: 08
          +2
          Then read again what exactly the number 18000 was and what other numbers were there.
  11. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA April 7 2021 11: 08
    +4
    But the Poles refused to obey and continued to advance - thus, they exposed their left flank. After waiting for them to advance far enough in the center, the Germans went to their rear, cut them off from the main forces and began to destroy the Poles in parts.

    Well, just the 2nd AVP in the battles for Berlin. There, the Poles also rushed to Dresden, not paying attention to the flank attack of two tank divisions and to the direct order of the command of the 1st UV for a turn and counterstrike on the advancing Germans.
    1. Basior
      Basior April 7 2021 11: 37
      0
      You have forgotten who commanded them: a veteran from Spain sent from Moscow, still a drunken general - Colonel of the Red Army Karol Sverchevsky ... He squandered the army, the senseless losses of soldiers. But the drunken communist general received the award ...
    2. Constanty
      Constanty April 7 2021 11: 48
      +3
      In the battles for Berlin, not 2, but 1 WUA participated, more precisely

      more precisely:
      1st Warsaw Infantry Division Tadeusz Kosciuszko
      2nd Pomeranian Howitzer Artillery Brigade
      6th Separate Warsaw Motorized Pontoon Bridge Battalion
      1st separate mortar brigade
      In total, about 12 thousand. soldier
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 7 2021 14: 43
        +2
        Quote: Constanty
        In the battles for Berlin, not 2, but 1 WUA participated, more precisely

        Two WUAs participated in the Berlin operation.
        The 1st AVP, as part of the 1st BF, was on the right flank, insuring the grouping surrounding Berlin from the north from a blow to the rear. Steiner ... Steiner did not come precisely because of the Poles - they not only stopped his offensive, but threw his group back to the starting ones.
        The 2nd AWP, as part of the 1st UV, was on the left flank, delivering an auxiliary blow in the direction of Dresden. And I got carried away ...
        1. Constanty
          Constanty April 7 2021 15: 03
          +3
          I meant the storming of Berlin itself. The tragic battles of Bautzen, although part of the Berlin operation, take place 100 km further from the city.
  12. EvilLion
    EvilLion April 7 2021 11: 52
    -3
    To fight is difficult, but to destroy prisoners is always easy and simple for the Poles. Typical medieval master's approach, when all around are slaves, why pity them if the ransom is not paid for them. They care about Katyn just as much as they can cut it off, but Russia does not pay, and ask the Germans apolitically.
  13. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx April 7 2021 12: 04
    +3
    Even if the Poles really shot the prisoners, then for some reason it is impossible to blame them.
    As well as feeling sorry for the executed, too, not particularly.
    I guess I'm too bloodthirsty.
    Or maybe just too much grief was brought by the German soldiers to everyone they reached.
  14. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 7 2021 15: 03
    +1
    What is kipish about? They shot the Ubermenchs, who did not stand on ceremony with the Poles, as well as with other Slavs, what is there to discuss?
  15. Cheerock
    Cheerock April 7 2021 17: 54
    0
    Quote: tihonmarine
    Quote: Moskovit
    The Germans did not stand on ceremony with the Poles at the beginning of the war, the Poles with the Germans at the end. What goes around comes around

    I think that our grandfathers and fathers treated German and European
    invaders. It was necessary to act with their own methods.

    Well yes. And who will restore what was then destroyed? We did everything right.
  16. pytar
    pytar April 8 2021 11: 31
    0
    ... Poles shot German prisoners in cold blood, regardless of their nationality - even if they were Austrians or Poles from territories annexed to the Third Reich. The soldiers of the 1st Armored Division (Laibschastandart SS Adolf Hitler) were remembered by the allies as gloomy and angry, everyone around them prying out only one thing: what the BBC says about the Warsaw Uprising.

    We have lived to see this! To cry about the poor, unhappy members of the EU, who were shot by the bad Poles! fool Never mind that the same SS-sheep brutally destroyed hundreds of thousands of people, and being captured by them was worse than dying !!! As far as I know, they didn't stand on ceremony with the SS and the Red Army! Even the Americans have had cases of blown up the surrendered ESS members.
    The soldiers / Polish / of them were excellent, but the army needed discipline and their hatred made them a very problematic ally in battle.

    Poles must have loved SS-sheep, or what ?! belay
  17. pytar
    pytar April 8 2021 11: 48
    +1
    In most parts of the world, Holocaust denial is a punishable criminal offense. Denial of the Armenian Genocide is a crime in many countries. Denying war crimes during World War II is nowhere criminalized. And it would be useful in full measure to cool the hot heads of supporters of rewriting history

    According to the author, he shot 1300 ss animals, tantamount to the genocide of Armenians and the Holocaust ??? belay Can the author add to the war criminals and Soviet soldiers, who did not stand on ceremony with the Essovites at all, having seen their atrocities, incredible in their cruelty? fool What have the publications on VO sunk to?!?! Bottom !!! Full of horror! negative
  18. Codexgigas
    Codexgigas April 9 2021 19: 26
    0
    Let's start with the fact that the Poles are the second in terms of losses in the second, and there are a lot of civilians, the Germans destroyed them mercilessly, in that city they shot the SS, who, as you know, were not taken prisoner. And the Americans and the British also shot them without trial, even in films it calmly shows .the same film "rage" .so the Poles, as it were, had the "right".