Military Review

"Chechnya is a school for us": about the events of August 1996 in Grozny before the signing of the Khasavyurt agreements

101

2021 marks the 25th anniversary of the Khasavyurt agreements. They were signed on August 31, 1996, when Russian politicians and representatives of the command sat down at the same table with the leaders of terrorist groups in the North Caucasus, whom the West stubbornly called "freedom fighters".


Almost a quarter of a century has passed, but the question is still relevant: how was this even possible? How did militant groups manage to take control of Grozny in August 1996, which at that time was completely controlled by federal troops?

The events in Chechnya a quarter-century ago really developed surprisingly and strangely, very strange ... Gangs of militants were able not only to infiltrate the city, but also to create long-term fortifications, firing points in its various regions. And all this actually happened under the noses of the generals from various then power departments of the Russian Federation.

The commander (at that time) of the troops, General Pulikovsky, in his interviews repeatedly stated that there were hundreds of officers in the administrative buildings of Grozny, with weapons, from stocks of ammunition, food and medicine, which could be enough for at least a month. At the same time, according to Pulikovsky, it turned out that most of the servicemen in Grozny "were not combat-ready."

One of the statements:

Imagine if, during the Great Patriotic War, soldiers and officers fought for three months, and would know that in three months they will be replaced by others. That was exactly how it was in Chechnya. Many officers, for example, from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, simply did not know how to fight. They knew how to solve crimes, fight crime, theft, etc.

The video, published on the Sladkov + channel, tells about the fighting in Grozny in August 1996, the heroic actions of the paratroopers, as well as what is usually called a betrayal on the part of top officials. Reflections are presented on how it happened that agreements with the militants were discussed at the moment when the militants were surrounded in Grozny and, in fact, had no chance to get out of there.

Airborne officer about the events of 25 years ago:

Chechnya is our shame, but it is also a school for us ...

Film by Alexander Sladkov:

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  1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
    Nikolay Ivanov_5 7 March 2021 15: 20
    -2
    Betrayal of the nomenclature of the people of the USSR.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 7 March 2021 16: 52
      +13
      Seriously speaking, Russia was then on the verge of liquidation. When representatives of the state with thugs-thugs sit equally at the negotiating table, when they fulfill their requirements, and then let them go home with an honorable escort (Budenovsk), then the prestige of the state falls below the plinth. negative Why, then, is such a state necessary if it is not able to perform even primitive functions to protect its citizens ?! All this was calculated by the non-human bandits and those who financed them ..
      1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
        Nikolay Ivanov_5 7 March 2021 16: 53
        +3
        It all started with the collapse of the USSR.
        1. Niko
          Niko 7 March 2021 17: 55
          +5
          Quote: "It all started with the collapse of the USSR" well, don't be so arrogant: EVERYTHING began either with a "big bang" or with "in the beginning God created heaven and earth" depending on religion
        2. Incvizitor
          Incvizitor 8 March 2021 15: 31
          0
          It began with the degradation of the USSR and the collapse of its consequence.
          1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
            Nikolay Ivanov_5 8 March 2021 15: 55
            +3
            The main reasons are the degradation and betrayal of the ruling class.
  2. mag nit
    mag nit 7 March 2021 15: 26
    +2
    Chechnya is not a school, it is a clamp for us.
    1. Volodin
      Volodin 7 March 2021 15: 28
      +8
      Quote: mag nit
      Chechnya is not a school, it is a clamp for us.

      For you, for whom? ..

      Have already passed: "Stop feeding the Caucasus (Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc., etc.)" ...
      1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
        Nikolay Ivanov_5 7 March 2021 15: 30
        +2
        Then everything beyond the Urals, the Volga region, Karelia, etc. The hydra of a new radical nationalism is growing.
        1. VORON538
          VORON538 8 March 2021 02: 18
          +3
          In order not to grow, the relevant services periodically amputate the extra processes of this hydra. Over the past 20 years, it has been very successful!
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 16: 19
        -11%
        Quote: Volodin
        Have already passed: "Stop feeding the Caucasus (Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc., etc.)" ...

        Can you say why to push into the Russian Federation peoples who are completely unassimilated with it?
        1. Volodin
          Volodin 7 March 2021 16: 39
          +15
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Can you say why to push into the Russian Federation peoples who are completely unassimilated with it?

          First, with whom - "with him"? Secondly, I hope this is a bad joke, and you simply forgot that Russia is a multinational and multi-confessional country in which hundreds of peoples and nationalities have lived in peace and harmony for centuries. Even your nickname underlines this.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 16: 48
            -5
            Quote: Volodin
            in which hundreds of peoples and nationalities have been living in peace and harmony for centuries.

            Is this a joke? For 200 years they have been waving sabers over Chechnya. In the world? Oh well. With Georgians in the world? With the Balts, whom Peter bought - in the world?
            1. VORON538
              VORON538 8 March 2021 02: 22
              0
              Mordvin, what happened? Something from you lately smells like a destructive radical ... Has the deep Mordvin appeared?
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 8 March 2021 04: 22
                -1
                Quote: VORON538
                Something from you lately smells like a destructive radical ... Is it possible that a deep Mordvin has appeared?

                Maybe ... But how can one not become angry when at every step lately they are being deceived? Have you ever seen how they offer a "salary" of 6 (six) thousand per month? After such proposals, everyone on the British flag to break off the hunt.
                1. Grognag
                  Grognag 8 March 2021 16: 39
                  0
                  In fact, it is from there that nationalism's legs grow out of the economy, so it's not about those who periodically chop their heads, but those who create such conditions in the regions
          2. Mairos
            Mairos 7 March 2021 19: 38
            +9
            Yes, they do. But not always in peace and not always in agreement, unfortunately. History shows that the nationalism of many peoples of great Russia (imperial or Soviet) is off the charts. One has only to weaken the central government, as they immediately strive to "run away", along the way, genocide all "non-local" people. So it was at the beginning of the 20th century, the revolution and after, it was the same in the 90s. Unfortunately, the consolidation of the peoples of Russia directly depends on the strength and decisiveness of the authorities in Moscow.
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 7 March 2021 20: 44
              -1
              Quote: Mairos
              History shows that the nationalism of many peoples of great Russia (imperial or Soviet) is off the charts.

              The less educated a people is, the more nationalistic they are. With the rise in the education of the population, nationalism comes to naught.
            2. Modun
              Modun 8 March 2021 04: 59
              0
              This means the words that Russia did not drag anyone to itself by force, everyone voluntarily entered, these are fairy tales. And Ermak is also a thug-scumbag?
      3. demo
        demo 7 March 2021 16: 39
        +2
        Where did you get the money?
        Allah gives!

        Fine? Not a clamp?
        1. Volodin
          Volodin 7 March 2021 16: 43
          +8
          Quote: demo
          Where did you get the money?
          Allah gives!
          Fine? Not a clamp?

          Chechnya got you personally messed up - it's a pity ...

          If there is a collar on the neck of Russia, then these are snickering oligarchs who only benefit from your inventions.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 16: 58
            +6
            Quote: Volodin
            If there is a collar on the neck of Russia, then these are snickering oligarchs who only benefit from your inventions.

            By the way, the oligarchs started the war in Chechnya. Would you like to write about it? This was a war for the pipe, and not at all for some kind of constitutional order.
            1. Baloo
              Baloo 7 March 2021 18: 32
              +6
              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              Quote: Volodin
              If there is a collar on the neck of Russia, then these are snickering oligarchs who only benefit from your inventions.

              By the way, the oligarchs started the war in Chechnya. Would you like to write about it? This was a war for the pipe, and not at all for some kind of constitutional order.

              Not certainly in that way. Akhmadshah's nephew in an interview with Tatarstan journalists named the traitors, and these are not only the first persons of the union republics and Shevardnadze. One of the versions, before the withdrawal of troops, a functionary of the Central Committee and a certain military rank established transit from Afghanistan through Tashkent, Moscow, Grozny. When Dudayev became president of Chechnya, flights became without Tashkent and Moscow. Does anyone remember the composition of Dudaev's government? Only the Minister of Health was there without a conviction for banditry, murder, rape. Now it is clear . why and by whom independent Chechnya was proclaimed as a springboard for terrorism.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 18: 42
                -5
                Quote: Balu
                Now it is clear . why and by whom independent Chechnya was proclaimed as a springboard for terrorism.

                Can you say it more simply?
                1. Baloo
                  Baloo 7 March 2021 19: 19
                  +7
                  Quote: mordvin xnumx
                  Quote: Balu
                  Now it is clear . why and by whom independent Chechnya was proclaimed as a springboard for terrorism.

                  Can you say it more simply?

                  Pervomaisk, Beslan, Moscow ....
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 19: 22
                    -8
                    Quote: Balu
                    Pervomaisk, Beslan, Moscow ....

                    I did not understand who, in your opinion, was the proclaimed independent Chechnya?
              2. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 21: 01
                -3
                Quote: Balu
                a functionary of the Central Committee and a certain military rank established transit from Afghanistan through Tashkent, Moscow, Grozny. When Dudayev became president of Chechnya, flights became without Tashkent and Moscow.

                Just look where the pipe goes.
            2. antivirus
              antivirus 7 March 2021 18: 44
              +2
              sharing money - and then and now. It is beneficial to bow - bow to the owner, loyalty was paid. it was more profitable (more dough) - there were people for the Khasavyurt world. they climbed to the "world". now this is how the bidding takes place for the right heroes.

              and the stupidest question - who is the senior in Grozny? The government of Chechnya, the operation of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Ministry of Defense, right- (left semi-) defenders?
              who is the power? gave the command to put things in order?

              and I clearly remember - the hardliners were defeated (by such an assault on the militants) politicians (LebedA). the secretary of the Security Council was gaining political weight.
          2. demo
            demo 7 March 2021 21: 29
            -5
            I am at the age when the personal fades into the background. And the concept of Motherland comes to the first place.
            Those. I have troubles in my personal life less frustrating than negative events in the life of my country.
            Therefore, your "average" approach - Does it concern you? Not? What are you fussing about? - I am not satisfied.
            Twenty or twenty-five years ago I was equally purple - there is Chechnya, there is no Chechnya.
            If only they did not touch me.
            Today everything is different.
            The presence of such an "enclave" on the territory of Russia is a challenge to moral norms, law, traditions and customs. Both Russians and Chechens.
            You will ride across the Chechen Republic, and if you have the opportunity, then look at dozens of mini refineries that annually process more than 2 million tons of oil from the depths of Chechnya.
            Then find out where these oil products go (to which port). Then, how much does the budget of the Russian Federation receive from this money.
            Then I will drink to the peace of your soul. Hardly anyone will see your body.
            So what does the clamp have to do with it?
            For people like you, any semantic load is extremely contraindicated.
          3. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 8 March 2021 03: 57
            +3
            Quote: Volodin
            If there is a collar on the neck of Russia, then these are snickering oligarchs who only benefit from your inventions.

            And with numbers in hand, can you prove that the Chechen Republic is a New Year's gift for the Russian Federation? We look at the hands:

            This is all for one and a half million people.
            ==========
            This is for 3 people of the population of two regions:


            ==========
            This is the data for the Krasnodar Territory:

            ==========
            Now explain to us what this is:
            2020 year:
            gratuitous receipts in the amount of 71 thousand rubles

            2021 year:
            gratuitous receipts in the amount of 78 thousand rubles

            ==========
            Stop reading morality. Read the notes about General Yermolov Alexei Petrovich and then tell us about our "EVERYTHING" and the fastened "NO FUCK TO YOURSELF".
        2. Nikolay Ivanov_5
          Nikolay Ivanov_5 7 March 2021 16: 45
          +3
          Everything that happened at the end of the existence of the USSR was a betrayal of the ruling class, which was infected with varying degrees of nationalism.
          1. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 8 March 2021 04: 06
            +1
            Quote: Nikolay Ivanov_5
            Everything that happened at the end of the existence of the USSR was a betrayal of the ruling class,

            Direct betrayal of the nomenklatura under the control of the committee. Criminal seizure of power could not take place without the participation of the authorities guaranteeing the security of this power.
            All these stories about drunkards from Sverdlovsk and their guards from recruited locksmiths are idle speculation. Type in the search on Y0uTube "Korzhakov o" and listen to:
            As an example:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WqriB45u8s
          2. mat-vey
            mat-vey 8 March 2021 08: 23
            -1
            Quote: Nikolay Ivanov_5
            Everything that happened at the end of the existence of the USSR was a betrayal of the ruling class, which was infected with varying degrees of nationalism.

            What can you tell us about 1958 about this?
            1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
              Nikolay Ivanov_5 8 March 2021 08: 37
              0
              Did you want to know my point of view on a particular event? A lot happens every year.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 8 March 2021 08: 39
                -1
                Quote: Nikolai Ivanov_5
                Did you want to know my point of view on a particular event? A lot happens every year.

                In 1958 there were a lot of specific events ...
                1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
                  Nikolay Ivanov_5 8 March 2021 08: 44
                  0
                  Reduction of the armed forces.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 8 March 2021 08: 51
                    -1
                    Quote: Nikolay Ivanov_5
                    Reduction of the armed forces.

                    We are talking about Chechnya ... in 1958 there were "riots" no different from the 90s .. With special operations and cleansing operations ...
                    1. Nikolay Ivanov_5
                      Nikolay Ivanov_5 8 March 2021 09: 06
                      0
                      What happened in 1958 cannot be compared with the events taking place in the 90s.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 8 March 2021 09: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: Nikolay Ivanov_5
                        What happened in 1958 cannot be compared with the events taking place in the 90s.

                        Because then they did not allow it to "bloom" and crushed it, although you cannot say that on the vine ..
      4. seacap
        seacap 7 March 2021 19: 00
        +7
        Svidomye, the Balts, etc. also started by shouting all the time how much you can feed the Muscovites, and since the end of the 80s we have been shouting how much you can feed the parasites in the army, so in the 90s they almost destroyed them at the root, now they continue to mock veterans of the non-profit and in / retirees, the only category in the world subjected to humiliating discrimination on the basis of professionalism in the appointment of pensions.
        1. adler87
          adler87 8 March 2021 10: 43
          0
          Are military pensioners discriminated against? Oh how! And then how, to whom have you been told, will you go to retirement not in 5 years, but in 10?
        2. adler87
          adler87 8 March 2021 10: 43
          -1
          Are military pensioners discriminated against? Oh how! And then how, to whom have you been told, will you go to retirement not in 5 years, but in 10?
          1. seacap
            seacap 8 March 2021 11: 51
            0
            Do not lump everything together, at the moment we are talking about in / pensioners, a crime in the form of a pension reform is not being considered at the moment. We are talking about a reduction coefficient only when calculating the pension provision in / with 1,9, and in / for retirees before 2000, no recalculation was made at all and was calculated, in fact, from the monetary allowance of SA, and these are people who went through all interethnic conflicts, Afghan, etc., who were spat and thrown into tents with their families in the middle of the field, humiliated, did not pay for months ,those. who remained faithful to the oath and duty kept the traditions and what is now called and what they are proud of, the RVS and the Navy
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. adler87
              adler87 22 March 2021 13: 58
              0
              How is it not to lump everything together, if the military pension is paid from the budget, which is filled not by the military, but by hard workers like me? The point is that I should retire at 65 and die at 67, statistics. And the military pensioners, as they left at the age of 29 (well, you have ALL gone through ALL conflicts, and with me, all the military leave at 29), and they leave. Well, the coefficient was lowered, nothing, you will survive.
              And they spat on the military, it is known why, in Soviet times it was a privileged stratum of society, it was only their wives who could not work for them, they were first of all provided with apartments, and we civilians waited for 10 years, living in the far north in a one-room apartment with amenities on the street, and watched the young lieutenant drive into a comfortable two-story apartment in a new five-story building. That's okay. It was me, a second-year student of the Penza Polytechnic University, who was not allowed into the military center of the military town, as unworthy. This is what I saw enough of officers in the army on a draft for 2 years: a drunk company commander who drove in his six to the parade ground at 12 am and yelling "Daytime!" also the merit of the ochs. And it happened, they came after hard work at night, at 90 o'clock, and we had nothing to eat, no supper, no bread, thanks to the officers. In tents with families, not only the military lived, but in the XNUMXs the military had a normal patch, unlike the rest of the people, and had rations, which the rest did not have at all. And the military immediately forgot the oath, when it was possible to leave for a warm place, immediately the report and legs in hand and galloped off. No need to cry here, it should be a shame, discriminated against.
    2. Nikon OConor
      Nikon OConor 7 March 2021 18: 09
      +9
      For you, maybe. For Russia, this is a springboard, a fortress and a whip. For everyone in the south will start acting against Russia. Were you not impressed when a few years ago Akhmatovich in 4 hours on alarm gathered 40000 fighters in full gear at the stadium, or how in 2008 the Georgians bursting with plugging their anuses, knowing that the Chechen battalion was catching up from behind?
      Yes, there was a war, but we must remember. But in history we fought a lot with whom now to live and not be friends with anyone? Tell the Tatars and Bashkirs.
      1. Mikle2000
        Mikle2000 7 March 2021 18: 47
        +4
        ++++ You were not impressed when a few years ago Akhmatovich, in 4 hours on alarm, gathered 40000 fully equipped fighters at the stadium

        Impressed, but not happy
        1. VORON538
          VORON538 8 March 2021 02: 30
          0
          The stump is clear, not happy. At times your crushed by the crown of the name, cries sometimes break out that Ukraine has the right to part of the territory of Russia. I think you understand that these 40.000 will not be on the side of Kiev! ask the Georgians :)))
      2. Mairos
        Mairos 7 March 2021 20: 04
        +7
        The main thing is not to repeat the mistakes of the Western Roman Empire - they supported and paid for whole legions of "barbarians" (in their understanding), and these legions then plundered Rome themselves. Simply flooding the national republics with dough is a direct path to seperatism, with the slightest weakening of the central government. So it happened with the USSR. Like there was a single and great Soviet people, but, in fact, they didn't exist.
        1. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 12 March 2021 00: 02
          0
          Quote: Mairos
          The main thing is not to repeat the mistakes of the Western Roman Empire.
          First there was ONE Roman Empire ...
          Then BEGAN ... division into WESTERN and EASTERN parts in 395 AD. - The division of the Empire began from the CAPITAL - Rome ... Appeared - TETRARCHY - two AUGUST and two CAESARS (deputies of Augustus).
          breakdown of rome 395g
          hi
  3. Doctor
    Doctor 7 March 2021 15: 38
    -1
    This is not the first time I have reviewed it. Once again I am convinced that it is necessary to switch to the brigade organization.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 16: 23
      -4
      Quote: Arzt
      it is necessary to move to the brigade organization.

      And how did this help 131 brigades?
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 7 March 2021 16: 41
        +1
        And how did this help 131 brigades?


        A word to the same Pulikovsky:

        A lot has been said about this event, but one thing is true - the brigade was the only a military unit that managed to complete the assigned task during the assault on Grozny, although all units that were on the outskirts of the city received similar orders.
        The personnel of the brigade managed to break through the defenses of the militants and reach the designated area, taking designated positions near the railway station. And it is not their fault that others could not do this, that they alone had to repulse the attacks of superior enemy forces.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 16: 51
          -7
          Quote: Arzt
          the brigade turned out to be the only military unit that managed to complete the assigned task during the assault on Grozny,

          What? Yes, he went to hell. Horns and legs remained from the 131st brigade.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 7 March 2021 17: 25
            +6
            What? Yes, he went to hell. Horns and legs remained from the 131st brigade.

            From the BRIGADE?

            The group "North" included in Grozny:

            400 people from 276 MSE. This is the BATALION.
            426 from 81 ms. This is also a BATALION.
            446 from 131 ms. Another BATALION.

            Total 1300. Regiment. Under the command of a general.
            Losses of 131 msb - 157 out of 446. A lot. But everything is relative.
            During the Second World War, they would not even be taken out for reorganization.

            The question is different.
            We are at war with WINEGRETS. Nobody knows anyone, there is no military coordination, the commander was appointed 3 weeks ago.

            Watch the video from 7 minutes. Whoever was there. From paratroopers to security officers.

            But it could have been different.
            As in Ancient Rome.
            Raised LEGION (6000 - brigade).
            Well-coordinated.
            With downed units.
            With permanent commanders who know the capabilities of the soldiers.
            And sent to Gaul.
            And at the point of permanent deployment they left the commandant's battalion so that the walls would not be dismantled.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Doctor
                Doctor 7 March 2021 18: 00
                +6
                What are you driving that? Yes, Savin was shouted openly so that he did not create panic when they were hollowed out from all sides.

                Not about that. About the number of troops.

                The brigade is 4000 - 6000 people.

                And 131 entered Grozny from 446 MSB. Battalion.

                And in the newspapers they smashed the BRIGADE. Oh-ho-ho! What warriors!
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 18: 04
                  -4
                  Quote: Arzt
                  And in the newspapers they smashed the BRIGADE. Oh-ho-ho! What warriors!

                  Oh you ... Well, well ... Consider that the battalion was there. Who asked for fire.
                  1. Doctor
                    Doctor 7 March 2021 19: 08
                    0
                    Oh you ... Well, well ... Consider that the battalion was there. Who asked for fire.

                    Documents are open, check. To clarify, I'm only talking about those who entered the city.

                    In total, the "North" group is about 4000. Brigade.
                    And the combined detachment of the 131st brigade in 1469. So the losses are about 10%. wink

                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 7 March 2021 19: 50
                      -6
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Documents are open, check.

                      What do I need your documents ... According to them, Raduev, I suppose, ran barefoot from Pervomaisk, and Chernomyrdin was a hero.
                    2. cat Rusich
                      cat Rusich 12 March 2021 19: 42
                      0
                      Quote: Arzt

                      And the combined detachment of the 131st brigade in 1469. So the losses are about 10%. wink
                      The consolidated detachment of the 131st Omsb Brigade under the command of Colonel I. Savin numbered 1469 personnel, 42 infantry fighting vehicles, 20 tanks and 16 artillery pieces. The brigade was located - 1msb on the southern slopes of the Tersk ridge in the area 3 km north of Sadovoe, 2msb concentrated in the MTF area 5 km north of Alkhan-Churtsky.
                      Here are just Colonel I. Savin DIE when leaving the encirclement, like his entire group. Almost all the equipment of the Maykop "brigade" remained the same somewhere in Grozny. You can read the "statistics of losses" and think that "a lot of forces" remained in the "Maikop brigade" - in reality, in the first days of January 1995 - the REGULATED Detachment of the 131st Motorized Rifle Brigade was RAGMED and temporarily lost its combat capability.
            2. Niko
              Niko 7 March 2021 18: 01
              +1
              Quote: "but it could have been different. As in Ancient Rome" .... I agree in the meaning, but I want to draw your attention to the fact that Rome became GREAT when its legions were a militia, ie. had nothing to do with the professional army.
              1. Doctor
                Doctor 7 March 2021 18: 31
                +1
                Quote: "but it could have been different. As in Ancient Rome" .... I agree in the meaning, but I want to draw your attention to the fact that Rome became GREAT when its legions were a militia, ie. had nothing to do with the professional army.

                Not fundamentally.
                The question is in the number of tactical units for the war.

                The experience of history teaches that they are fighting in battalions (250-500 people) brought together in brigades (4000-6), and not regiments and divisions.
                1. Mairos
                  Mairos 7 March 2021 20: 07
                  +4
                  What experience does this teach? World War II? There regiments and divisions ruled, moreover, armies!
                  1. Doctor
                    Doctor 7 March 2021 20: 34
                    0
                    What experience does this teach? World War II? There regiments and divisions ruled, moreover, armies!

                    Good question. Thank.

                    The Konigsberg operation, the peak of the military art of the Red Army.
                    Strength "divisions".



                    This is BEFORE the operation. And in the process, the "divisions" could be reduced to a thousand. wink

                    There are 3 men in 106 "armies". Do you get it?

                    We won the Great Patriotic War with BRIGADS. Which were called divisions. laughing

                    From the point of view of the number of stars and gaps on the shoulder straps, this is, of course, correct. laughing
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 7 March 2021 22: 19
                      0
                      Sorry, I didn’t quite understand.
                      Can you tell me what the column Personnel of the company means?
                      1. Doctor
                        Doctor 8 March 2021 08: 03
                        +1
                        Sorry, I didn’t quite understand.
                        Can you tell me what the column Personnel of the company means?

                        This is the forward assault force of the "divisions".

                        Naturally, not the entire 106-strong group of Soviet troops took a direct part in the assault. Fortified lines and enemy positions were overcome by specially trained sub-divisions: assault groups and assault detachments, the basis of which were rifle companies of active fighters. Each army numbered 9-10 thousand.

                        The assault on Koenigsberg in 1945: the number and losses of the opposing sides and the civilian population.
                        G.V. Kretinin
                        Problems of the National Strategy No 2 (11) 2012.


                        Approximately 1/4 of the entire unit. As in Grozny. smile
                    2. Glory1974
                      Glory1974 9 March 2021 14: 51
                      -1
                      We won the Great Patriotic War with BRIGADS. Called divisions

                      it's not about the name, and not even about the number of people in the compound. The whole trick is in the number of people directly participating in the battle and in the means of strengthening.
                      So, in the Second World War they acted in divisions. Because the composition includes parts of reinforcement, maintenance, and it can act independently.
                      The brigade of the modern army is a regiment with the means of reinforcing the division. An attempt to reduce personnel to increase shock capabilities.
                      1. Doctor
                        Doctor 9 March 2021 15: 03
                        0
                        it's not about the name, and not even about the number of people in the compound. The whole trick is in the number of people directly participating in the battle and in the means of strengthening.
                        So, in the Second World War they acted in divisions. Because the composition includes parts of reinforcement, maintenance, and it can act independently.
                        The brigade of the modern army is a regiment with the means of reinforcing the division. An attempt to reduce personnel to increase shock capabilities.

                        It's about balance.
                        Between power and control.

                        Vasilevsky near Konigsberg considered the total strength of the tactical formation to be about 4000, with about 1000 directly participating in the battle.
                        Pulikovsky near Grozny - too.
                      2. Glory1974
                        Glory1974 9 March 2021 15: 36
                        0
                        It's about balance.
                        Between power and control.

                        This is closer to the topic. Therefore, for combined arms combat, one method is used to build up troops in one or two echelons with or without the allocation of reserves, and assault groups are formed to conduct combat in the city. All this is spelled out in the combat manual.
                        A division is fighting or a brigade, it has nothing to do with it.
                        This is a matter of tactics.
                      3. Doctor
                        Doctor 9 March 2021 18: 44
                        0
                        A division is fighting or a brigade, it has nothing to do with it.
                        This is a matter of tactics.

                        Why were Vasilevsky and Pulikovsky satisfied with the number of connections of about 4000?
                        Why did they not bring the division to a full-fledged state - 9000 and 14000, respectively?

                        Why in the legion of Romans 4000-6000 in different years?
                        Not 10000 - 12000?

                        Why is the number of peacekeepers in Karabakh 1700? And will it stay the same?
                        (Wanguyu, no, he won't. It will be brought to a minimum of 3000-3500. But not up to 12000). wink
                      4. Glory1974
                        Glory1974 10 March 2021 10: 08
                        0
                        Why were Vasilevsky and Pulikovsky satisfied with the number of connections of about 4000?

                        if it is a combined arms battle, in defense, the division occupies up to 40 km along the front, in the offensive, 10-15 km.
                        In your listed examples, do you need such a scale? Obviously not. Moreover, a brigade or other unit cannot go into battle at the same time. At least it is advanced by battalion columns, that is, at least 3 paths of movement. But even the battalion cannot, stretching out in a column of 5-7 km long, go to the assault. Therefore, depending on the conditions, elements of the battle order are created.
                        The peacekeepers in Karabakh do not need to keep the front 40 km, they do not need to storm the fortified city, for their tasks they have formed their own battle formation.
                        The combat manual tells how to act, what number is needed to complete the combat mission. Based on this, the battle formation is being built.
                      5. Doctor
                        Doctor 10 March 2021 11: 25
                        0
                        The combat manual tells how to act, what number is needed to complete the combat mission. Based on this, the battle formation is being built.

                        The order of battle is already the formation of the formation.
                        And we are talking about the original organization.

                        In 1945, the staff of the division 04 / 550-558 operated - 9543 people.
                        Divisions of the USSR in the 80s - 11000-14000 people.
                        Each staff unit seemed to be scientifically substantiated, proven and approved.

                        However, Vasilevsky did not combine 27 "divisions" at 3500-4500 in 10-12 at 9500.
                        And Pulikovsky cost 1/3 of a full-fledged division.

                        It's just that such connections are unmanageable. Only the Germans succeeded. But if you look closely, they were divided into 2 or even 3 groups in battle.
    2. Nikon OConor
      Nikon OConor 7 March 2021 18: 32
      0
      He served in 2002-2004. Officers were recruited from the Strategic Missile Forces, at will (who wants seniority and combat). Our divisional commander, the colonel, drove without fail for the "general". We, the soldiers, asked with them, in companies, did not take. Only officers and only at will. Those. Such a hodgepodge was in the 2nd Chechen war, and in the subsequent counter-terrorism ...
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 7 March 2021 18: 46
        0
        He served in 2002-2004. Officers were recruited from the Strategic Missile Forces, at will (who wants seniority and combat). Our divisional commander, the colonel, drove without fail for the "general". We, the soldiers, asked with them, in companies, did not take. Only officers and only at will. Those. Such a hodgepodge was in the 2nd Chechen war, and in the subsequent counter-terrorism ...

        Solyanka all the time. This is the problem. Not only are they from different parts, but also from different species and genera they are shoveled into a heap.

        1980 Panjshir operation.

        According to the operation plan, a tactical group of five battalions (three Soviet and two Afghan) with a total number of 1000 fighters.
        For fire support, a helicopter squadron and artillery units were attached.
        The deputy commander of the 40th Army was appointed as the head of the operation Maj.-Gen. Pechevoy Leonid Nikolaevich.

        1982 Panjshir operation

        According to the plan of the operation, the territory of the Panjshir Gorge was divided into three zones, in each of which the summary tactical grouping of the 40th Army and the DRA Armed Forces:
        The tactical group consisted of the 40th Army - of 108th Mechanized Infantry Division (177th MRR, 180th MRR, 181st MRR, 781st orb, artillery division) and 191st OMR. From the Armed Forces of the DRA - units of the 8th Infantry Division (332nd Regiment, 58th Regiment, 72nd Regiment) ...

        1984 Panjshir operation
        In total, 33 were involved in the operation. battalion (20 Soviet, 13 Afghan).
        The red herring began on April 14 with the advance parts 108th Mechanized Infantry Division, 191st Motorized Rifle Division, 395th Motorized Rifle Division, 201st Motorized Infantry Division, 8th and 20th Infantry Divisions of the DRA Armed Forces.

        To block the enemy's retreat to the north from the Panjshir Gorge to the Andarab Valley, of 201st Mechanized Infantry Division and 350th Infantry Regiment of the 103rd Guards. airborne


        Etc.
        1. Runway
          Runway 7 March 2021 23: 18
          -1
          Write nonsense. From not knowing or not understanding.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 8 March 2021 08: 24
            +1
            Write nonsense. From not knowing or not understanding.

            View the number of tactical formations from Romans to Syria.
            Everywhere the same thing.

            Borodino for example:

            1st Infantry building - 23200 people.

            Composition:
            5th Infantry "division"
            14th Infantry "division"
            3rd Cavalry Brigade
            1st backup art. brigade
            Grodno hussar regiment
            pioneer company Gerua
            two Don Cossack regiments

            2st Infantry building - 14600 people.
            2 infantry "divisions"and the hussar regiment

            3st Infantry building - 17100 people.

            1th Grenadier "division"
            3th Infantry "division"
            2 combined grenadier battalions,
            Life Guard Cossack Regiment
            1st Teptyar Cossack Regiment
            2nd cavalry artillery company.


            Divide the total strength by the number of units (taking into account the smaller in cavalry and arte) or see the real one.

            You will find the same 3000 - 6000 people.
            TEAM.
            And this is NOT RANDOM. wink
            1. Runway
              Runway 8 March 2021 08: 28
              -2
              Man, are you not a motorized rifle regiment dentist?
              1. Doctor
                Doctor 8 March 2021 08: 31
                +1
                Man, are you not a motorized rifle regiment dentist?

                A doctor, not a dentist. I visited motorized rifle regiments, but did not serve.
                He served in brigades. And divisions, of course. laughing

                But he taught at the departments of OT the mythical, vitrual staff of the MSE.
                Type of this:



                Which I never saw in my life. wink
              2. Runway
                Runway 8 March 2021 14: 06
                -1
                Then the anecdote about the speech of a dentist at the international congress of military doctors should know.
                It's not worth talking about the "picture" and the texture (I also had to have 3/2/50, but it was in the period 1/0/17 - officers / warrant officers / conscripts, but the task is according to the "staff").
                So your example of operations (the composition of the grouping per task) is not correct.
              3. Doctor
                Doctor 8 March 2021 16: 02
                0
                It's not worth talking about the "picture" and the texture (I also had to have 3/2/50, but it was in the period 1/0/17 - officers / warrant officers / conscripts, but the task is according to the "staff").
                So your example of operations (the composition of the grouping per task) is not correct.

                This is reality.
                Full-fledged divisions exist in the minds of staff strategists, mobilization plans, and (sometimes) in permanent deployment points.
                For example, my head of the course started his service in a full-fledged SME, with a number of about 2400. But that was in the Western Group of Forces.
                And this is all before the start of the real war.
              4. Glory1974
                Glory1974 9 March 2021 15: 32
                +2
                Full-fledged divisions exist in the minds of headquarters strategists, mobilization plans, and (sometimes) in permanent deployment points. For example, my head of the course started his service in a full-fledged SME, with a number of about 2400. But that was in the Western Group of Forces.

                in the USSR there were divisions of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd echelons. In the WGV, there were fully equipped units according to wartime states. In the inner districts, the divisions were staffed according to the peacetime staff, and in the heart of the country they were generally cadre: officers and soldiers for the maintenance and protection of equipment.
                In the event of war, all units and formations are staffed up to a full staff, because in peacetime it makes no sense to keep such a horde.
              5. Doctor
                Doctor 9 March 2021 20: 48
                0
                in the USSR there were divisions of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd echelons. In the WGV, there were fully equipped units according to wartime states. In the inner districts, the divisions were staffed according to the peacetime staff, and in the heart of the country they were generally cadre: officers and soldiers for the maintenance and protection of equipment.
                In the event of war, all units and formations are staffed up to a full staff, because in peacetime it makes no sense to keep such a horde.

                It's like that. But we are talking a little about something else.

                The 2nd Guards Taman Division is standing near Moscow. The one that took Königsberg.

                Chechnya began. That would be to take and raise this division and send it in full strength there. And what, part of it worked, the commanders are all their own, they know the technique, the tactics at the Alabino training ground have been worked out together for more than one year.

                But no.
                The 1st regiment is on its way, then the 15th. There they join some incomprehensible groups, no one knows anyone, the rear from Siberia, reconnaissance from the Urals, arts from the Volga region, parachutes are swarming right there ( laughing ), cops with dogs and screwy sailors (where without them). fellow

                All this gang of Makhnovists is sent to take the city. With a natural outcome.

                And why? Because a division is also an uncontrollable organism. Already during loading and mooring, 50 people will be strangled by the technicians.

                Brigade. 6000 maximum. The only way.
  • Nikon OConor
    Nikon OConor 8 March 2021 13: 19
    0
    Indeed, my stepfather participated in the Panjshir. But I don’t know which one, he doesn’t like to talk about the war at all. He's a border guard. Let's count: He is 62 + 17 years old + 5 years of institute and it is 84th year. I went there with a summer jacket, went out as an elder with a medal "For Courage".
  • cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 12 March 2021 00: 17
    0
    Quote: Arzt
    But it could have been different.
    As in Ancient Rome.
    Raised LEGION (6000 - brigade).
    Well-coordinated.
    With downed units.
    With permanent commanders who know the capabilities of the soldiers.
    And sent to Gaul.
    And at the point of permanent deployment they left the commandant's battalion so that the walls would not be dismantled.
    Also add - legionnaires - contract soldiers with a 20 year contract (the specific number of years of service in the legion varied ...). The classic number of fighters in the LEGION is 4200 infantry (30 maniples) and 300 horsemen (10 turms). soldier
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 12 March 2021 07: 00
      0
      The classic number of fighters in the LEGION is 4200 infantry (30 maniples) and 300 horsemen (10 turms).

      Manipulas are already companies.

      Cohorts.

      Each legion consisted of 10 cohorts, ranging in size from 360 to 555 people in different years.

      The predecessors of modern battalions.
      1. cat Rusich
        cat Rusich 12 March 2021 19: 49
        -1
        Quote: Arzt

        Manipulas are already companies.
        Cohorts.
        Each legion consisted of 10 cohorts, ranging in size from 360 to 555 people in different years.
        The predecessors of modern battalions.
        Do not forget about the LEGIONARY service life - 20 years. When the "Establishment of Constitutional Order in Chechnya" began (1994), the term of service was reduced to 1,5 years ...
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 12 March 2021 22: 22
          0
          Do not forget about the LEGIONARY service life - 20 years. When the "Establishment of Constitutional Order in Chechnya" began (1994), the term of service was reduced to 1,5 years ...

          What does it have to do with it at all.

          Initially, we are talking about the fact that since the time of Rome, 4000-6000 people have actually been fighting in tactical formations with divisions into units of 300-500, that is, in brigades and battalions.

          Even when these brigades are called divisions.

          Therefore, it is necessary to consolidate the existing order of things and move to a brigade organization.
          1. cat Rusich
            cat Rusich 12 March 2021 22: 31
            0
            Quote: Arzt
            Do not forget about the LEGIONARY service life - 20 years. When the "Establishment of Constitutional Order in Chechnya" began (1994), the term of service was reduced to 1,5 years ...

            What does it have to do with it ..
            Despite the fact that in the LEGION during a combat campaign, the soldiers do not change every 3-6 months.
  • seacap
    seacap 22 March 2021 20: 09
    0
    According to the treaties, at that time we did not have the right to move more than a battalion across the European part of the country, so consolidated reinforced battalions from units and formations operated in Chechnya. b / d units did not affect, in this case the loss of military equipment had a greater impact than l / s.
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 9 March 2021 15: 23
    +2
    the brigade turned out to be the only military unit that managed to complete the assigned task during the assault on Grozny,

    The brigade stormed nothing. The marching column went to the indicated positions, did not meet resistance. From the headquarters of the group they gave her the command to move on. As a result, the brigade went to the railway station and found itself inside the militants' defensive ring. As a result, it turned out to be surrounded and fought heroically, having lost almost all equipment and a lot of people.
    I respect Pulikovsky, he is a military general, he lost his son in that war, but for such a command of the brigade he must be shot.
    When the brigade reached the station, it was shown live on local television. Therefore, the truth is not the same as in your quote.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • don-1500
    don-1500 8 March 2021 01: 22
    +2
    Quote: Nikon OConor
    Akhmatovich in 4 hours on alarm gathered 40000 fighters in full gear at the stadium, or how

    Such a normal Chechen ponte what? Only here is his "devotion" to Moscow for the time being and he prepares these fighters for something completely different. Waiting. I would also have probed him about his connections with the Turkish and British special services.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 8 March 2021 06: 32
    0
    Who prompted Yeltsin such a hypocritical horror as "Take sovereignty, as much as you want." So they began to take it. Rotten power, rotten outskirts. Yes, in fact, the oligarchs took power at that time. I watched this video with pain. And what did the people, the heroes of this experience video, we will not fully find out.
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 8 March 2021 09: 39
      -5
      Quote: nikvic46
      And what the people, the heroes of this video, experienced, we will not fully find out.

      Here's one video:

      There is also a vivid example of forgetfulness.
      1. kaban7
        kaban7 8 March 2021 12: 23
        +1
        Nevzorov is a vivid example of shit, and you don't need to give it as arguments
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 8 March 2021 22: 04
          -1
          Quote: kaban7
          and you don't need to use it as an argument

          Most importantly, you do not give me the names of the Heroes of Russia as arguments. Please don't!
          And the "scoundrel" Nevzorov and the scoundrel Santa Claus, who arranged the New Year in an unprepared room, are to blame for everything ...
          Start developing your analytical skills and think how Aivazovsky could write this:
  • Gregory Charnota
    Gregory Charnota 8 March 2021 09: 29
    +1
    Yes, from friendly fire many soldiers died there, even witnessed such an emergency
  • kaban7
    kaban7 8 March 2021 12: 21
    -1
    I believe that the Minsk agreements are not far from the 1996 agreements - the same betrayal ...
  • Basarev
    Basarev 9 March 2021 11: 00
    +3
    But in reality - a large-scale trade in interests. The Kremlin almost openly played along with the militants. You had to be consistent and principled. And once it was said once - no negotiations with terrorists - then it was necessary to press them and press them, not to accept surrender and not to take prisoners. And just do not hesitate to kill everyone who took up arms against the feds. That's right in general, everyone, without examining any titles, names, or regalia.
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 9 March 2021 15: 27
      +3
      The Kremlin almost openly played along with the militants.

      I agree with you. In the books of Troshev and Kulikov, the names of some people from Yeltsin's entourage are named, who did not allow the troops to fight. For example, Lobov forbade the use of aircraft and artillery at certain moments. As Troshev writes in his book, as a result Major Zotov's company died, which was sent to the gorge, but was not supported by fire as planned. If this is not betrayal, then what is betrayal?
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 9 March 2021 15: 45
        +1
        Quote: glory1974
        In the books of Troshev and Kulikov, the names of some people from Yeltsin's entourage are named, who did not allow the troops to fight.

        He's a clown himself.
  • Oleg Aviator
    Oleg Aviator 11 March 2021 23: 13
    0
    I don't see anything strange at all. This is to be expected. And the lessons were good in Afghanistan, including the mentality of the bandits. Only everything was done stupidly again. They put a bunch of people. Both military and civilians who relied on them.
  • Azamat Ramazanov
    Azamat Ramazanov 13 March 2021 15: 12
    -1
    Because the soldiers and officers did not want to die in this dirty war, where they were constantly betrayed by their own government