Military Review

Aviation design bureaus are homeless. Reforms according to Serdyukov

257
We start with a document that was recently literally thrown onto the Internet and at this moment its authenticity is beyond doubt.


Aviation design bureaus are homeless. Reforms according to Serdyukov

According to data obtained from various sources, on February 2, a secret meeting of the five chief aviation industry chiefs took place in Moscow. But in our country, nothing secret can be such for a long time, so someone dumped the protocol on the Internet. For which many thanks to this person, we are at least now aware of what will begin this year.

And, as you already understood, nothing good will happen. Well, not that country, in fact, to break through, break free, catch up and overtake.

As you can see from the document, it follows that on March 1 of this year, the process of expelling the leading aviation firms. "Sukhoi", "Irkut", "MiG", "Tupolev", "Ilyushin" - all will be evicted from the capital, and the areas they occupy will be sold for construction.


And the money received from the proceeds of the land will be used to pay off the multibillion-dollar debts of our wonderful United Aircraft Corporation, which it has made during its super-efficient existence.

So what? Just think, what sissies, constructors ... Will not fall apart. But they will be, like this, closer to production. As what is invented, it will go straight to production.

In general, it is clear that all this will lead to the fact that aviation design bureaus, which somehow managed to survive and develop something, will soon order us all to live happily ever after.

And the design bureau and the entire Soviet aviation industry, which somehow still held on for these 30 years under the blows of reforms, optimizations and other democratic tricks, will now be tormented once and for all.

I don't know who was the initiator of this venture, this is still unknown to society, although, in theory, the country should know its heroes. But it is known who will be the performer. This is the chairman of the board of directors of the UAC, Mr. Anatoly Serdyukov. And unfortunately, this is not a namesake, but the same former defense minister.


Perhaps, the funeral eulogy of the aviation industry can not continue? After the name of Serdyukov, everything became clear and understandable?

I will risk. Let's just say, in expanded form.

It is necessary to unfold, because it is necessary to understand the corporate style of Serdyukov, without this in any way. And his style is simple and is determined by only two parameters - profitable or not profitable. And he doesn't care how others look at it. Therefore, all decisions of Serdyukov, they are so ... quiet and without unnecessary publicity.

For example, during his time as a minister, a brilliant idea gasped in the ministerial head: to enlarge airfields. There is nothing, for example, to maintain regimental airfields. It is necessary to dazzle the huge airfields on which the mixed divisions will be stationed. Specifically, the planes of the Kursk Khalin, the Voronezh bomber regiment and training aircraft from Borisoglebsk were to be brought down to the Voronezh "Baltimore".

Nice, huh? Minus two airfields, the beauty is simple! And the fact that one airfield would accommodate about a hundred aircraft ... on top of each other. One rocket - and hello, hometown, for "Baltimore" is located within the city limits.

And in the Far North they generally wanted to leave one airfield out of five ... It is expensive to maintain airfields there.

And Serdyukov and the gentlemen wanted to spit on the fact that it was dangerous or harmful. The main thing is profitable!

And now, when Serdyukov was removed from the airfields, aviation design bureaus will go under his saw. As I understand it (and there will be more intelligent ones behind me), effective managers of Serdyukov and the company do not care what to destroy and cut, combat aircraft or drawing boards in the aviation design bureau.


And people, developments, new ideas, traditions, finally - all this is dust and dust before the altar of Financial Profit.

And now the guilty design bureaus will go under the financial knife. Moreover, now I will literally explain on my fingers. Why this will happen if the areas in Moscow will be used for construction.

And as an example I will take PJSC "Il". Where are these "production facilities" "Ila" located? Yes, after the next renaming (nobody knows why) the public joint-stock company "Aviation Complex named after S. V. Ilyushin" has a production site in Voronezh, at PJSC "VASO". And in Ulyanovsk. In short, very close to Moscow.

Attention, the question: how many designers living in Moscow will rush headlong to work in Voronezh, at an aircraft plant? Or to Ulyanovsk?

You don't have to go far for an example. He is here in Voronezh.

There was in Russia, inherited from the USSR, such an Air Force Engineering of the Orders of Lenin and the October Revolution, the Red Banner Academy named after Professor N. Ye. Zhukovsky - a higher military educational institution that trained and retrained engineers for the Air Force until August 2011 ... Since 1920.

Then this academy was gone. Optimized as unnecessary.

And in the same 2011, all with the same optimizer Serdyukov, the Yuri Gagarin Air Force Academy was destroyed and abolished. In general, it was defeated back in 2008, but merged with the Zhukovsky Academy.

And in 2011, the names and part of the equipment were transferred to Voronezh, to the Military Aviation Engineering University.

And they had to transfer the teaching staff. How many people do you think, being of sound mind and clear consciousness, went to Voronezh? That's right, about 5%. Naturally, not professors and academics. Simpler people went. To them were added teachers from the destroyed Tambov and Voronezh schools of radio electronics (on the basis of the latter now the "academy" is located), and the teachers of the former VATU, the Voronezh Aviation Technical School. And the remains from Stavropol and Irkutsk.

In general - "I blinded her out of what was." We ask you to love and favor, "Zhu Garin Academy", as it was called in the flying environment.

But they vacated the premises in the Dynamo metro area. What the Monin premises have become is also easy to see if you visit the still living Air Force Museum.

And in the end, only a beautiful sign remained of the academy. Cadets are taught in Voronezh, however, what and how everyone can read on the site himself.

Nothing remains of the two former splendid educational institutions of the highest academic class but memory.

And Moscow teachers have joined the ranks of Moscow universities, fortunately, there are still ranks there that can be replenished.

Exactly the same will happen with constructors. No amount of force will force a person in our time to break away from his home in the capital to continue working in the premises of the Voronezh aircraft plant. Not very well adapted to this, frankly.

But the designers are unlikely to be asked for their opinions. Not that level, Anatoly Eduardovich will hardly ask anyone. He does not need anyone's advice, as practice shows.

I wonder (and not only me), and who will correct everything that was done afterwards, after Serdyukov, following the model and likeness of the army? Where to get anti-effective managers?

And after all, everything is going under the auspices of "reforming" ... And what is the essence of these, if I may say so, "reforms"?

If you read what falls on the heads of ordinary people, everything is replete with such beautiful themes as “further development of design schools”, “elimination of duplicate functions”, “centralization of management” and so on. They know how to write effective, they know how.

But loud slogans for some reason did not help to fashion domestic wings for the MS-21. For three years, representatives of the Yakovlev Design Bureau have been sitting at the same Voronezh aircraft plant and trying to make a resin that would be even remotely similar to the American one. But for some reason import substitution does not work out. The stone flower does not come out.

And is it not because of the mass production of this "domestic and import-substituted" aircraft from 2017 to 2025 because of ... right, because of the sanctions!

So much for the reforms ...



One clever person on the Internet gave these reforms a great slogan: "Let's do it worse than it was before us!" I agree, it will be so. And that's why.

The idea itself evokes thoughts exclusively of sabotage.

Judge for yourself: take and throw away all KB from the occupied premises. With a subtle "replacement of legal addresses with the addresses of industrial sites." What's next? Further - "to industrial sites"?

I applaud. Standing. Imagining how the great migration of peoples will begin. Okay, the MiGs have a tiny experimental plant in Lukhovitsy, we can say they are lucky. And the rest?

"Silts" go to Ulyanovsk or Voronezh.
"Tu" to Kazan.
"Su" ... Novosibirsk or Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

That's all, you can say goodbye to the Sukhoi Design Bureau. I don’t know who will go from Moscow to the Far East. If nobody rushed to Voronezh for 500 km, then what to say about Novosibirsk or Komsomolsk?

Of course, there is also a project, as I was told. He is even more cynical and does not look sabotage, but mocking.

All design bureaus are collected, expelled from their places and evacuated somewhere to one common site. In one of the cities, of course, excluding Moscow. The list is there, above, plus Nizhny Novgorod, where the MiG base is.

And there is a huge center of aviation design and development under the auspices of the UAC, of ​​course.

In narrow circles, this project has already been called a "mass grave".

But Anatoly Eduardovich does not care. The main thing is that today it will be possible to sell the buildings of the former design bureaus and pay off part of the UAC's debts. Well, don't offend yourself, of course.

The most disgusting thing - where will the KB base for testing combat and civilian systems go? There are dozens, if not hundreds, of stands that have been accumulating over the years! They cannot be disassembled and transported, say, from Polezhaevskaya to Komsomolsk-on-Amur without complete destruction. So the stands of the Sukhoi Design Bureau will simply be destroyed.

However, they say that similar stands of the Ilyushin and Tupolev Design Bureau can already be forgotten.

By the way, an interesting question: where, in fact, does the UAC have 500 billion rubles in debt? How did it happen? Where did the effective manager Slyusar look? Where is the equally effective Serdyukov looking?

Well, Serdyukov is looking at how PJSC Sukhoi is being re-registered from Moscow to Novosibirsk. Then, apparently, the employees will be asked to go there. No one will go, they will quit (as the Sukhoi employees themselves say), and the treasury will have a positive effect: there will be no need to lay off anyone.

By the way, here it is worth remembering how well Serdyukov did the job, commanding Russian Helicopters. There, 50 million for Allochka Pugacheva on concerts as sponsorship hiccuped well. And the reforms too. They led to a drop in both production and demand for our helicopters.

Come on, what is there, the main thing - Anatoly Eduardovich is loyal and devoted to Vladimir Vladimirovich. Everything will be fine. We will fly, as before, in Boeings and Airbuses, and we will buy combat aircraft from the Chinese.

The main thing is that Mr. Serdyukov should have somewhere else to frolic. The helicopters have landed, the planes will now land. What else needs to be reformed?

... I got scared for the air defense ...
Author:
257 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 25 February 2021 05: 40
    +52
    who here advocated "effective manager"? eh?
    1. Destiny
      Destiny 25 February 2021 05: 44
      +52
      In a sober mind and a solid memory? Nobody stood up.
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 25 February 2021 06: 00
        +30
        The helicopters have landed, the planes will now land
        There is a lot more where the playful hands of an "effective manager" are needed!
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 25 February 2021 06: 58
          +19
          I just read the first two paragraphs and immediately understood - again Roman, again everything was mixed up in the house Oblonskikh some state corporation, again “my heart won't get tired of beating” ... But there are those who see all these “innovations” as something supernatural, some kind of promising and promising breakthrough.
          Novel! You shouldn't have worried. Mikhailo Lomonosov also said:
          “All changes that occur in nature are of such a state that how much is taken from one body, so much will be added to another. So, if some matter diminishes, it will multiply in another place ... "

          I cannot answer one hundred percent for the accuracy and order of words in sentences, but the meaning is clear. "Sukhoi", "Irkut", "MiG", "Tupolev", "Ilyushin", "Roskosmos" will arrive from Moscow. Here hares are killed one after another: they create the appearance of a skillful and effective leadership; demonstrate a variety of "seething activities"; create the basis for cutting the federal and Moscow budgets; comply with the order (May decrees) on the creation of 25 dollars each high-tech jobs, and
          The main thing is that Mr. Serdyukov should have somewhere else to frolic. The helicopters have landed, the planes will now land. What else needs to be reformed?

          As for Roskosmos, its successes at various a few parsecs away directions, then after cartoons of the American Mars rover, Mr. Rogozin said (according to the Moscow project) that "crawled out of the ground" (from 4:42)

          And all these "noodles" seem to people to be edible and easily digestible product.
          1. Civil
            Civil 25 February 2021 08: 35
            +12
            So what? Everything is quite logical. Those who disagree can go and stand on their knees. There are no such? That's right, optimization will affect everyone.
            1. lucul
              lucul 25 February 2021 11: 19
              -16%
              So what? Everything is quite logical. Those who disagree can go and stand on their knees. There are no such? That's right, optimization will affect everyone.

              And this is good.
              Let me remind you that when we moved production from America / Europe to China, scientists and designers followed suit. Well, it is simply impossible to develop a new product, being thousands of kilometers away from it. So it was, so it will always be - an intelligent designer is always near his creation.
              It's another matter when the designers create the appearance of stormy activity, without any results at all, but they sit in the capital, imitate stormy activity.
              What results have our aviation design bureaus shown over the past 30 years? Without direct government investments, like the Su-57, well, maybe helicopters, there is nothing to boast about. NOTHING.
              Remind you all what projects Polikarpov created in batches, being in complete disgrace? These are the future Yak and MiG and others, and the lack of funding did not prevent him from CREATING projects. Because he is a creator by nature, and will sculpt beautiful airplanes even from ... and sticks.
              Or our modern design bureaus - hang on the neck of the state for 30 years - and there are NO projects, not even on paper !!!! I understand that funding for full-fledged R&D was not enough (as for the Su-57), but on paper, then, at least something could be worked out? But there is nothing on paper either.
              And the fact that this case will be led by Serdyukov, on the contrary, I am calm.
              When he was the Minister of Defense, he destroyed the army so much, well, he destroyed the army so much that now it is impossible to recognize it at all. The army of the 2006 model, before the Serdyukov reform, is not worth a damn, compared to the 2020 army.
              So here too, I hope that with the KB reform all unnecessary ballast will be removed, because a designer who wants to sit exclusively in the capital is not a designer, but an opportunist.
              1. Vladimir Mashkov
                Vladimir Mashkov 25 February 2021 13: 46
                +2
                Quote: lucul
                A designer who wants to sit exclusively in the capital is not a designer, but an opportunist.

                I agree with you (as a former, though not an aviation one, but a designer) that realconstructor should be next with production: it's easier to decide daily problems of creating technology, correcting minor omissions and bringing, debugging technology to the highest level. Both experienced and serial.

                But historically it turned out that most of the aviation design bureaus ended up in Moscow and its environs, settled down, equipped and took root, settled down comfortably.

                It is clear that neither the designers, nor - especially - their family members completely I do not want to leave the capital for cities that, in terms of social and living conditions (some in terms of climate), are inferior and more severe than those in the capital. In addition, today it is not clear what conditions will create for them for creativity and life in a new place.

                Yes, you are right, the question is exactly like this: are you FOR the cause or FOR their personal interests, are you a statesman and a patriot or a mercantile opportunist?

                This is the cold heart of the problem. The rest is emotions, distortions and provocations.
                1. Temples
                  Temples 25 February 2021 14: 11
                  -20%
                  Well, not that country, in fact, to break through, break free, catch up and overtake

                  Words not of a boy, but ... of one offended by life.

                  The country is not the same, they are doing the wrong thing, everyone around is morons, only the author on a white horse and knows a lot about everything. laughing negative

                  How alike you all are. Speak on behalf of all the people, though you are not the people and the country is not the same.
                  You are one gang-watering can - sobchaks-bulk-echo-moskovytsy ...
                  And the author of this tearful story from the same deck.
                  Always unhappy with everything.

                  They want to throw out a couple of thousand parasites from Moscow. Of course they (the parasites) do not like it.
                  Just don't call all these "managers" constructors.
                  Articles like this one appeared instantly.
                  Certainly not for money, but from the heart. wassat

                  Your name is three percent.
                  1. gsev
                    gsev 25 February 2021 17: 29
                    +17
                    Quote: Temples
                    They want to throw out a couple of thousand parasites from Moscow. Of course they (the parasites) do not like it.
                    Just don't call all these "managers" constructors.

                    When they began to produce anti-aircraft missiles, it turned out that no one at the plant knows the physics of vacuum and does not know how to work with equipment for checking the tightness of welded seams by filling the tanks with helium or blowing out critical seams. Military envoys are afraid to accept products and fall under reprisals. Production workers are also afraid to take up testing. The situation was saved by a former laboratory assistant at the Institute of Physical Problems, who moved to this plant in pursuit of a long ruble.
                    If the plant were far from Moscow, the development of new production could take several months or years. Now the airlines in Moscow have already been optimized to the point. For example, 2 mechanical designers were left for CNC machines and machine tools. And suddenly the CNC machine designer quit. Now, if a new one does not appear, and cannot enter the course in the next 5 years, the machine park of imported CNC machines at this plant will begin to degrade. In addition, the following problem emerged in Russian aviation: imported universal CNC machines produce less accuracy than old highly specialized aggregate machines. That is, the plant faces a dilemma to produce equipment of inferior quality or to redesign the aircraft again for the machine tool base purchased in the West. It is no coincidence that aviation in Russia developed in the large cities of Kiev, Petersburg, Riga and Moscow. It was there that there were scientific personnel, engineering schools and young students studied. In the distant Tmutarakan, aviation will gradually degrade. In China, for example, industry is developing in clusters. One province is doing CNC, another is machine tools, the third is pyrotechnics, and the fourth is making fabrics. But the main enterprises of the most important industries duplicate this production in Beijing, Shandong and Shanghai. Then it is stupid to consider the designer as a parasite in Russia. He often receives less than a waiter, and from him the Serdyukovs, Rogozins and Putin demand 60 times less resources to keep up with the United States and Musk. True, it turns out that the Russian aviation industry is beginning to lose to the Turkish and Iranian ones.
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 25 February 2021 19: 17
                      -8
                      It is no coincidence that aviation in Russia developed in the large cities of Kiev, Petersburg, Riga and Moscow.

                      Indeed - that was the stupid Stalin that began to create scientific centers in Siberia. He should have listened to gsev - then it would be - uuhhh how good it would be ...
                      1. gsev
                        gsev 26 February 2021 17: 30
                        +3
                        Quote: lucul
                        Indeed - that was the stupid Stalin that began to create scientific centers in Siberia.

                        Akademgorodok was founded in 1957 on the initiative of academicians Mikhail Alekseevich Lavrentyev (1900-1980), Sergei Lvovich Sobolev (1908-1989) and Sergei Alekseevich Khristianovich (1908-2000). The decision to create Akademgorodok was contained in the decree of the USSR government, adopted on May 18, 1957. It was under Khrushchev that scientific institutions began to be moved from the capital. Under Stalin, all the leading aircraft design bureaus were in Moscow. For example, KB Grabin under Stalin moved from Gorky to Moscow. Serial factories were built on the periphery, some of them then grew into independent enterprises, especially with the transition from aircraft production to missile production. There is no need to compare an ordinary engineer with Stalin and demand from him as from Stalin. It is difficult to say what the relocation of factories from Moscow will result in,
                    2. Vadim237
                      Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 20
                      -2
                      "In addition, the following problem has emerged in Russian aviation: imported universal CNC machines produce less accuracy than old highly specialized aggregate machines." This is something of a fantasy - or "In the PRC, for example, industry develops in clusters. One province makes CNC, the other makes machines" They probably buy Chinese machines - whose quality leaves much to be desired. The Chinese have excellent cutting tools, but the machines are rubbish.
                      1. gsev
                        gsev 26 February 2021 17: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        CNC machines give less precision than the old highly specialized aggregate. "This is something of the appearance of fantasy

                        Why are you surprised that a ball screw has less rigidity than a trapezoidal screw? Or do you not realize that the follower drive, when stopped, actually continuously performs oscillatory movements, even in fractions of a micron. But this is an additional error, in addition, these fluctuations make the screw drive unusable within 2 years, if it is not a ball screw and is not equipped with a well-thought-out lubrication system.
                    3. Intruder
                      Intruder 26 February 2021 14: 25
                      0
                      True, it turns out that the Russian aviation industry is beginning to lose to the Turkish and Iranian ones.
                      we'll get there so soon - to Vietnam and Thailand ....!? if they have already begun to lose to the Iranian and Turkish ...
                  2. victor50
                    victor50 25 February 2021 17: 36
                    +3
                    Quote: Temples
                    sobchaks-bulk-echo-moskovytsy ...

                    Which of the Sobchaks do you mean? Is it the teacher of the current president? laughing
                  3. 2112vda
                    2112vda 26 February 2021 08: 14
                    -1
                    It should have been done for a long time! In the United States, for some reason, the head design bureaus of aircraft building corporations are not located in Washington. It is clear that the United States is not a decree for us. But it is much more logical to have a powerful design bureau at each serial plant. No one in our country is indignant about the design bureaus of aircraft engine and simply motor plants. And keeping all the leading design bureaus in one place is stupid for mobilization reasons.
                    1. gsev
                      gsev 26 February 2021 17: 42
                      +2
                      Quote: 2112vda
                      In the United States, for some reason, the head design bureaus of aircraft building corporations are not located in Washington.

                      In the USA, there is free competition in the aviation industry, and the Chemezovs and Sechins will not dispossess a talented independent director and designer. But Russia is gradually moving towards the creation of independent industrial clusters in the periphery. For example, a large and fast-growing supplier of spices, original salt and some products to Pyaterochka, Spar and other grocery chains is located in the village of Ulyap.
                  4. Kuzyakin15
                    Kuzyakin15 28 February 2021 11: 00
                    +1
                    Temples:
                    And why do you always broadcast for the whole people. As you do not read your comment, so your opinion is the opinion of the people. And the rest are bulk, Sobchaks, liberals ...
                    Maybe that's enough, but ...
                2. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 14: 26
                  +26
                  Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                  the real designer must be located near the production:

                  Will the UAC create the same conditions for the designers as in Moscow? Will they provide an apartment, salary, work for wives and schools / kindergartens? No, it won't.
                  Several years ago the Togliatti Military-Technical Institute was enlarged in order to "optimize", in fact it was simply liquidated. Ave Serdyukov, Ave Putin! negative
                  1. Intruder
                    Intruder 26 February 2021 14: 27
                    +1
                    Ave Serdyukov, Ave Putin!
                    only at the end in Latin it was: "... going to death - greet you ..." wink
              2. Vladimir Mashkov
                Vladimir Mashkov 25 February 2021 13: 46
                -13%
                Quote: lucul
                A designer who wants to sit exclusively in the capital is not a designer, but an opportunist.

                I agree with you (as a former, though not an aviation one, but a designer) that real constructor should be next with production: it's easier to decide daily problems of creating technology, correcting minor omissions and bringing, debugging technology to the highest level. Both experienced and serial.

                But historically it turned out that most of the aviation design bureaus ended up in Moscow and its environs, settled down, equipped and took root, settled down comfortably.

                It is clear that neither the designers, nor - especially - their family members completely I do not want to leave the capital for cities that, in terms of social and living conditions (some in terms of climate), are inferior and more severe than those in the capital. In addition, today it is not clear what conditions will create for them for creativity and life in a new place.

                Yes, you are right, the question is exactly like this: are you FOR the cause or FOR their personal interests, are you a statesman and a patriot or a mercantile opportunist? A passing question: are opportunists, NOT patriots, needed to create military equipment in Russia?

                This is the cold heart of the problem. The rest is emotions, distortions and provocations.
                1. Viktor Afanasev
                  Viktor Afanasev 25 February 2021 14: 52
                  +23
                  Unfortunately, many people will refuse to go somewhere far away for family reasons. Will they be able to find a job there for their wife, a normal school for their children? Taking into account the fall in the level of education, the people of the "old school" on whom everything rests will remain in Moscow to live on retirement ... And the losses can be critical ... I agree that it is necessary to have KB branches in production, but not to cut it like that shoulder. And I think soon there will be no people who are ready to give up personal, family well-being in a country ruled by oligarchs with yachts and palaces abroad ...
                  1. Vladimir Mashkov
                    Vladimir Mashkov 25 February 2021 15: 36
                    -3
                    Quote: Viktor Afanasev
                    Unfortunately, many people will refuse to go somewhere far away for family reasons. Will they be able to find a job there for their wife, a normal school for their children? Taking into account the fall in the level of education, the people of the "old school" on whom everything rests will remain in Moscow to live on retirement ... And the losses can be critical ... I agree that it is necessary to have KB branches in production, but not to cut it like that shoulder. And I think soon there will be no people who are ready to give up personal, family well-being in a country ruled by oligarchs with yachts and palaces abroad ...

                    Yes, you are right, many will remain in Moscow: now is not 41st, the population is far from the same. Although the real, and not verbal ostentatious patriots were, are and will be always the mainstay of Russia.

                    As for the oligarchs, yachts and palaces, this is only a reason for those who remain to stay: after all, behind the Central Ring Road lies eternal Russia, and Moscow, polished to shine, is only its capital.

                    And at the head serial factories, I think, you need to have not branches, but the design bureaus themselves.
                    1. Viktor Afanasev
                      Viktor Afanasev 25 February 2021 15: 47
                      +13
                      In 1941, people, the people realized that this was THEIR country. And now? An ordinary person, almost powerless, uninteresting, is not needed by the authorities ... The reform of medicine with the destruction of hundreds of hospitals is one of hundreds of facts confirming this. Any sane person now separates the Country and the Power. These are two opposing forces. For the sake of murderous reforms, I think, no one will sacrifice their lives ... Patriots are those who are FOR the people and FOR the country, and not those who are for Chubais, Serdyukov and other effective managers and their projects.
                      1. lucul
                        lucul 25 February 2021 16: 48
                        -6
                        In 1941, people, people realized that this was THEIR country

                        Do not be ridiculous - the split in society after the civil war was very high, and only the war of 1941 rallied both the Reds and the Whites - the country's survival was at stake.
                        Any sane person now separates the Country and the Power.

                        Yes, yes, everyone in Belarus was also shouting that all of Belarus was against Luka, but as time has shown, there are only 3% of them.
                      2. Viktor Afanasev
                        Viktor Afanasev 25 February 2021 17: 03
                        +6
                        They rallied a couple of decades earlier. Otherwise, with the country destroyed in the 20s, they would not have been able to create by 41st an industrial giant that is capable of producing equipment comparable or even better than the entire military-industrial complex of Europe. If everyone rallied only in 1941, it would be too late. And no “whites” in the 41st rallied. A huge number of old-regime scientists and officers went over to the side of the Reds during the Civil War or immediately after. In 41m there were none.
                      3. Vladimir Mashkov
                        Vladimir Mashkov 25 February 2021 18: 48
                        -7
                        You contradict yourself. In 41, not only whites with reds rallied, but also some white emigres from the USSR. Why? Because, in view of the threat to the Motherland, they transgressed through their contradictions, discarded their rejection of power. Because they were patriots of Russia! And patriotism is gratuitous disinterested love for their homeland. Love for the Motherland, not for the authorities and rulers! Patriotism is free. Which, of course, does not relieve the authorities of the responsibility to take care of the entire population, both patriots and non-patriots. To the best of my ability.

                        Accordingly, those who, citing many reasons, today refuse to help Homelandrefusing to leave Moscow for the cause are not patriots. "Love" for money and goods is called differently. More precisely, they are patriots yourself... It seems that they are worse than the white emigrants of the 40s of the last century ...
                      4. Viktor Afanasev
                        Viktor Afanasev 26 February 2021 04: 07
                        +1
                        1. An insignificant handful of white emigrants did not in any way affect the outcome of the Second World War. But those who raised the country, in less than 20 years from the ruins after the Civil War, including the former white officers who went over to the side of the Soviets, had a very strong impact.
                        2. Now, after 30 years of devouring the achievements of the USSR, having achieved almost nothing positive, except for the accumulation of personal wealth by dishonest means, the current rulers also want to be served silently and unselfishly.
                        3. Designers and so - for many years after the 91st they lived far from being in the best conditions and if the state is not going to take care of them, creating decent conditions for their work, then it is worth considering whether the people need such a state?
                      5. Vladimir Mashkov
                        Vladimir Mashkov 26 February 2021 12: 05
                        -1
                        What is demagoguery? Demagoguery is a way to powder the brains of a crowd and, with the help of chatter (scientifically - sophistry) and correct facts, lead to false conclusion. Today, very many are engaged in it, declaring the meaning of their activities, as always, the national good, care for the people.

                        And the truth simple: constructor for the good of the cause should be next with production.

                        If one does not give a damn about the benefit of the cause, but proceed from the benefit of the individual, then, of course, he should be where him convenient, good and comfortable (in Moscow, for example). And Socrates said a long time ago: "'Who wants to' act ', he is looking for opportunities, who does not want - looking for reasons."
                      6. Intruder
                        Intruder 26 February 2021 14: 32
                        +1
                        And the truth is simple: for the good of the case, a designer must be close to production.
                        The designer himself, even with his family, can be transported to Siberia and to Dalny, and there are quite a few ways for this (socio-economic), but unique stands and test complexes in their mass ???, here the task is an order of magnitude more complicated or simply not technically feasible !
                      7. Vladimir Mashkov
                        Vladimir Mashkov 26 February 2021 14: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Intruder
                        here are unique stands and test complexes in their mass ???, here the task is an order of magnitude more difficult or simply not technically feasible!

                        Yes, cause, of course, serious! But ... because their done? Hence, we can repeat it. However, similar exceptions necessary carefully examine, consider and make a reasonable compromise decision. Or no way, once in the capital? smile
                        I understand and sympathize: Muscovites very do not like to leave the capital and in order to stay, they are ready for a lot.
                      8. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 17: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Intruder
                        the designer himself, even with his family, it is possible to transport to Siberia and Dalny, and there are quite a few ways for this


                        And what are they? Build a new Akademgorodok? Or maybe it will be cheaper to leave in Moscow?
                      9. Intruder
                        Intruder 26 February 2021 17: 31
                        0
                        Build a new Akademgorodok? Or maybe it will be cheaper to leave in Moscow?
                        Well, yes, just instead of the new national space center of Roskosmos in Moscow !? wink
                      10. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 18: 02
                        +2
                        This is the plan, which is called the "mass grave" in the article.
                      11. Intruder
                        Intruder 26 February 2021 18: 04
                        0
                        which is called "mass grave" in the article.
                        well .. yes, for the further development of Russian cosmonautics !!! request
              3. gsev
                gsev 26 February 2021 17: 49
                +2
                Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                And the truth is simple: for the good of the case, a designer must be close to production.

                And he will find there a fool who, from such a rogue, will agree to produce new constructor-rogue?
          2. gsev
            gsev 26 February 2021 17: 47
            +4
            Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
            And patriotism is gratuitous unselfish love for one's Motherland.

            But not for the sake of building a new yacht for Potanin and Sechin and not for their departure with the girls to the summit in Switzerland. Or not for the sake of a summer residence or a new SUV of the owner of a small hardware factory.
          3. Vladimir Mashkov
            Vladimir Mashkov 26 February 2021 17: 53
            0
            I'm talking about patriotism, and you - about yachts and SUVs. Do not understand the difference and envy smothers?
          4. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 18: 05
            +2
            When the owner has a yacht, and the designer lives in his workplace "for the good of the cause" (a real story, by the way), patriotism does not work.
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 26 February 2021 14: 29
      0
      to the 41st industrial giant, which is capable of producing equipment comparable or even better than the entire military-industrial complex of Europe
      only in that era, aviation engines were pulled just from Europe ("by all means" and stupidly copying one to one ...), our resource was very small .., by the way! winked
  2. The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 17: 25
    0
    Quote: lucul
    in Belarus, too, everyone shouted that the whole of Belarus was against Luka, but as time has shown, there are only 3% of them.


    In fact, even the official results of the vote, voiced by Luka himself, indicate that against him - 20% laughing
  • Viktor Afanasev
    Viktor Afanasev 25 February 2021 16: 00
    +9
    Sacrifices at the expense of patriotism are needed and should be. When necessary and under special circumstances. But not when the ruling elite is fattening in front of everyone's eyes, sending children to study at expensive universities in the West, buying villas and yachts there, people will never make sacrifices voluntarily.
    1. lucul
      lucul 25 February 2021 16: 50
      -7
      But not when the ruling elite is fattening in front of everyone's eyes, sending children to study at expensive universities in the West, buying villas and yachts there, people will never make sacrifices voluntarily.

      Is it just the top of the USSR, which was begging all the time and shared all the hardships with the people, and returned all the contributions to the people in 1991, right? ))))
    2. Viktor Afanasev
      Viktor Afanasev 25 February 2021 16: 58
      +11
      Therefore, the people did not come to their defense in 1991. And in 1941 he got up... Now, too, no one is ready to sacrifice ... Inflation and loss of deposits are no longer the USSR, but the decline of an already doomed country, surrendered by its decayed elite. Already on the rails of capitalism, the market. In the USSR, people's deposits would never have burned out. And here, under this system, there are still surprises awaiting us with deposits (who still have them) and pensions ...
    3. lucul
      lucul 25 February 2021 17: 00
      -7
      And here, under this system, there are still surprises awaiting us with deposits (who still have them) and pensions ...

      Those who have survived the 90s cannot be surprised by anything.
    4. bayard
      bayard 25 February 2021 19: 04
      +9
      Those who survived the 90s were young then.
      But how will they have to now if the "lights" and pensions are canceled?
      But this has already been announced more than once ... while the herald and provocateur of novelty - Zhirinovsky.
      But such announcements are just entrusted to him.
      Or do you really think that now that conditional aviation industry will be born with fireworks of loud victories? smile
      You really don't understand what's the matter?
      In debt!
      For which the effective management of the UAC does not want to be responsible.
      And now they'll blame it on ... the fact that all the constructors RUN. yes
      All .
      There is no one else to build planes.
      And before that, they were not built, but only models and advances No. , well, and now, for sure, they will rush into a breakthrough.
      Only the sewers can break through these managers.
      Here it just breaks.
      Do you really think that it was due to "objective reasons that for 10 years you have not been able to launch the serial production of the Il-76MD90A?" smile
      What kind of EFFORTS had to be made so that this production is still not established in Ulyanovsk ?!
      And now, even more so, there is a reason - the design bureau has fled ...
      The author formulated everything correctly, but the problem is deeper.
      And wider.
      Preparations are underway for a systemic drain of the state itself.
      To the preparation of a social explosion and a "Russian revolt" - meaningless and merciless.
      But with very great benefit for the customers of this action.
      And the "scapegoat" has already been selected and appointed - the one who was promoted for 20 years, and on whom everything will now be dumped.
      The one who is on all screens and "in the love of the people" ... and who did not justify, did not cope, did not want to, could not.
      And the people's anger is quite fair.
      And the "main culprit" by all accounts - he deserved it.
      If I couldn't ...
      I didn't want to ...
      But he was just a doll and a lightning rod (at the moment), in the hands of the real "masters of life" ... Whose effective representatives indulge in such a delightful revelry on the ruins of the Great Empire created by Stalin's genius ...
      All these events / intentions / initiatives are a very bad sign.
      Anyone else hoping for a "revolution from above"?
      ... She would be now oh how by the way ... but ... on the arena there are clowns ... and a circus with horses ...
    5. Vadim237
      Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 23
      -2
      This is what EFFORTS it was necessary to make so that this production has not yet been established in Ulyanovsk - 7 aircraft have already been established, production is being increased.
    6. bayard
      bayard 25 February 2021 21: 38
      +7
      Quote: Vadim237
      7 aircraft have already been launched

      How many years?
      You call THIS production serial?
      The word “piece” is more suitable here.
      Or - experienced.
      All plans have failed. All programs have been disrupted.
      And no one is to blame.
      And Serdyukov - the hero of the collapse, again on the horse of optimization.
      Do you really think that the "good tsar" boyars are raging?
  • Intruder
    Intruder 26 February 2021 14: 36
    +1
    But not when the ruling elite is fattening in front of everyone's eyes, sending children to study at expensive universities in the West, buying villas and yachts there,
    and who is to blame that they are now in the second generation in 30 years that have become like that !? And who chose them and delegated authority to all of them, so that they could manage and distribute benefits from the budget! ??? laughing
    Now, the population with a voting voice can - blame and get angry, "at the universities of their children and villas with yachts ..."!
  • Simargl
    Simargl 26 February 2021 05: 52
    +2
    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
    But historically, most of the aviation design bureaus ended up in Moscow and its environs.
    Rather - strong in the vicinity
  • alexmach
    alexmach 25 February 2021 13: 54
    +10
    What results have our aviation design bureaus shown over the past 30 years? Without direct government investments

    And what results of your design activity do you want without investing in this very activity, it is very interesting for me to ask?
    1. lucul
      lucul 25 February 2021 16: 45
      -11%
      And what results of your design activity do you want without investing in this very activity, it is very interesting for me to ask?

      Look what Polikarbov created when his design bureau was taken away from him.
  • TT62o
    TT62o 25 February 2021 14: 58
    -5
    Moving material assets within one state is not theft.
  • victor50
    victor50 25 February 2021 17: 32
    +10
    Quote: lucul
    Well, it is simply impossible to develop a new product, being thousands of kilometers away from it.

    How could they not have discovered this before you? lol Not a single Soviet aircraft designer! Fools! request
    Quote: lucul
    Because a constructor who wants to sit exclusively in the capital is not a constructor, but an opportunist.

    I would also add that those who do not agree to work for a meager salary are also not designers! laughing The defenders of the existing mess are interesting: when the situation demands, they appeal to market relations, when it is necessary to justify something like in the article, they appeal to almost Soviet socialist patriotism! laughing
  • Simargl
    Simargl 26 February 2021 05: 48
    +2
    Quote: lucul
    So here too, I hope that with the KB reform all unnecessary ballast will be removed.
    Now I will type no less cons ...
    On one resource I read how one engineer fulfilled his childhood dream and got a job in the famous space-KB ... and ran away six months later: nepotism, not wanting to work, they are afraid to take on projects, according to his calculations, at 80% they are busy with something incomprehensible.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 26 February 2021 08: 30
    +6
    Will you create for such a salary?

    In Soviet times, salaries in aviation and space design bureaus were much higher than in other industries, now a designer, for example, developing stairs to private houses, receives much more, of course in Moscow.
    1. Reader 2013
      Reader 2013 26 February 2021 14: 32
      +2
      It is written absolutely correctly, pay with dignity and no one will hold on to Moscow if there is an opportunity to make good money
      1. gsev
        gsev 26 February 2021 17: 53
        +2
        Quote: Citatelle 2013
        It is written absolutely correctly, pay with dignity and no one will hold on to Moscow if there is an opportunity to make good money

        And in a Siberian city there will be leftist orders for stairs and fireplaces, in which you can cut a monthly salary in a week, or a market where you can organize the sale of shoes or TV consoles and lend money to all your colleagues in the design bureau who design military airfields?
        1. Reader 2013
          Reader 2013 26 February 2021 17: 55
          +1
          Why left orders, if you will be paid 200-300 thousand for an interesting job
          1. gsev
            gsev 26 February 2021 18: 09
            +3
            Quote: Citatelle 2013
            will pay 200-300 thousand

            Friends who have worked for 25 years in aviation have a salary 5-6 times lower than the one you specified.
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 13: 56
    +3
    Quote: lucul
    Let me remind you that when we moved production from America / Europe to China, scientists and designers followed suit.


    What nonsense.

    Quote: lucul
    Well, it is simply impossible to develop a new product, being thousands of kilometers away from it.


    In production, a product is not developed, but produced.
  • veritas
    veritas 25 February 2021 16: 07
    +8
    Quote: Civil
    That's right, optimization will affect everyone.

    She has already touched. But many do not understand the scale of the disaster, and when they do, it will be too late.
  • Svarog
    Svarog 25 February 2021 16: 27
    +10
    Quote: Civil
    That's right, optimization will affect everyone.

    Already touched .. the fruits are already known. Here is the fact that this optimization is gaining speed and there is no one to stop the optimizers .. this fact causes pessimism.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 25 February 2021 13: 26
    +17
    Yuri Vasilievich. I am touched by your selfless faith in our great managers. We also had such faith. But I must admit, aviation fell from the sky. And many airfields simply turned into landing sites. And if we talk about Lomonosov, then his other expression is better for me - "I don't want to believe, I want to know!"
  • mole
    mole 25 February 2021 22: 42
    +2
    Quote: ROSS 42
    I just read the first two paragraphs and immediately understood - again Roman, again everything was mixed up in the house Oblonskikh some state corporation, again “my heart won't get tired of beating” ... But there are those who see all these “innovations” as something supernatural, some kind of promising and promising breakthrough.
    Novel! You shouldn't have worried. Mikhailo Lomonosov also said:
    “All changes that occur in nature are of such a state that how much is taken from one body, so much will be added to another. So, if some matter diminishes, it will multiply in another place ... "

    I cannot answer one hundred percent for the accuracy and order of words in sentences, but the meaning is clear. "Sukhoi", "Irkut", "MiG", "Tupolev", "Ilyushin", "Roskosmos" will arrive from Moscow. Here hares are killed one after another: they create the appearance of a skillful and effective leadership; demonstrate a variety of "seething activities"; create the basis for cutting the federal and Moscow budgets; comply with the order (May decrees) on the creation of 25 dollars each high-tech jobs, and
    The main thing is that Mr. Serdyukov should have somewhere else to frolic. The helicopters have landed, the planes will now land. What else needs to be reformed?

    As for Roskosmos, its successes at various a few parsecs away directions, then after cartoons of the American Mars rover, Mr. Rogozin said (according to the Moscow project) that "crawled out of the ground" (from 4:42)

    And all these "noodles" seem to people to be edible and easily digestible product.

    The novel touches on topical topics.
    Even though they are a bone in your throat. But the principle is more important for you! It is clear from the comments.
    For a long time I propose to build a closed city in the center of Siberia, to surround it with servants' villages, where all but one travel by public transport, to relocate all the embassies there. But who will move to this garrison ?!
  • veritas
    veritas 25 February 2021 16: 05
    +7
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    The helicopters have landed, the planes will now land
    There is a lot more where the playful hands of an "effective manager" are needed!

    Already less and less remains. In ten years there will be nothing to saw.
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 07: 12
    +31
    Quote: Destiny
    In a sober mind and solid memory

    There was a case. Here he was presented as a successful reformer of the army, they say, before raising the army, it had to be lowered. Was it Boris55 who remembers?
    Under the article - well, with Serdyukov, and even with Chemezov, everything is clear, but the tsar is again not in the know?
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 25 February 2021 08: 07
      -7
      Not interesting material is served! Difficult to digest.
      I'm used to reading about the collapse of aircraft factories in Tbilisi, Tashkent and Kiev! There the authors do not hesitate to exaggerate and wring their hands! They draw creepy pictures and sound "and sometime ...."
      And here the whole intrigue is on the "secret" document. Well, the name of Serdyukov, so that the people would immediately feel the guilty!
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 25 February 2021 16: 29
        +9
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        And here the whole intrigue is on the "secret" document. Well, the name of Serdyukov, so that the people would immediately feel the guilty!

        Serdyukov is flesh of flesh .. systemic and "correct" manager .. for this on the loose ..
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 25 February 2021 08: 39
      +9
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      According to the article - well, with Serdyukov, and even with Chemezov, everything is clear, but the king is that, again, do not know?

      The king will not know until someone comes running to him and says:
    3. rjpthju
      rjpthju 25 February 2021 10: 12
      +6
      Where to find priest Gapon to lead people to Putin, to the National Guard, to tell him the whole truth.
    4. veritas
      veritas 25 February 2021 16: 07
      +7
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      but the king, then again, do not know?

      He's in the stake.
    5. GRIGORIY76
      GRIGORIY76 25 February 2021 16: 56
      +7
      The king is in the share!
  • Shkodnik65
    Shkodnik65 25 February 2021 15: 54
    +10
    With a sober mind and solid memory, no one stood up
    And that's not true. That, it was the case, tore the fifth point, proving that it was Serdyukov who put in place the presumptuous generals and optimized the over-hyped army colossus. And about the fact that he is a thief and walks over corpses, it's a slander. Well, now the aircraft industry is also optimizing. Till the end of time. am
    I'm just wondering, but there are beneficiaries. MO for example. After all, the khan of the military aviation (the civilian was killed long ago) Why is Shoigu silent? Or, like Havail SUVs, will we buy planes from China too?
  • indeveral
    indeveral 28 February 2021 10: 42
    +1
    Come on! There was a whole Caudle of his fans. They tell with delight how he carried out the secret plan of the first liberal of Russia to strengthen the Army. And he and his pack of lapdogs played the role of "thieves", but in fact worked hard for the good of the Fatherland. And who doubted it, they immediately wrote down as Bendera or traitors. After all, the first liberal of Russia is always right with them.
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 25 February 2021 07: 21
    +12
    The fifth column is working, 30 pieces of silver are being worked out. As for the devil, the shkonka is crying, and this creature continues to destroy the country's defense industry from within! I tell the truth, Stalin is not enough in Russia!
    1. A1845
      A1845 25 February 2021 11: 21
      +8
      Quote: Thrifty
      and this creature continues to destroy the country's defense industry from the inside
      and you will remember about the cases of "pests in the upper echelons .."
      1. dSK
        dSK 25 February 2021 11: 43
        -7
        Before 1945 there were 41 and 42, with their huge losses.
        The shooting of the commander-in-chief of the Western District and even a fellow countryman, Stalin's best friend - Mehlis ...
        1. RMT
          RMT 25 February 2021 13: 47
          +9
          Mekhlis was not shot. By God, they did not shoot, he died himself and the urn with ashes in the Kremlin wall to this day.
    2. Aleksandr21
      Aleksandr21 25 February 2021 11: 47
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      The fifth column is working, 30 pieces of silver are being worked out. As for the devil, the shkonka is crying, and this creature continues to destroy the country's defense industry from within! I tell the truth, Stalin is not enough in Russia!


      Under Stalin, the people from non-rubber would have reached out to master Siberia and the Far East, i.e. there is a real threat of losing this territory in 40-50 years, given the rate of population decline and migration to Moscow, St. Petersburg, Sochi, Kaliningrad, etc. As for the transfer of design bureaus, the controversial initiative will certainly reduce costs + decrease the time for approval - documentation (if everyone is in one place), but the problem with the human factor is ... to change well-fed Moscow to some remote place, and even if with a family (and wife + children, obviously will not be delighted) then yes, the problem.
      1. Sahalinets
        Sahalinets 25 February 2021 14: 54
        -2
        Under Stalin, the people from non-rubber would have reached out to explore Siberia and the Far East
        Then the people were staged ... Do you want to repeat their path?
        1. Aleksandr21
          Aleksandr21 25 February 2021 15: 25
          +3
          Quote: Sahalinets
          Then the people were staged ... Do you want to repeat their path?


          If you are asking my opinion (after all, I'm not Stalin), then the government should develop new programs to resettle people from the European part of the country (especially Moscow and the Moscow region) to Siberia and the Far East, + invest in local infrastructure, build factories / enterprises and give people a decent salary, so that local residents do not have to go to Moscow / St. Petersburg to earn money + unload the capital. Are you satisfied with this answer?
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 37
            +2
            Of course, the idea is super only where you will take tens of trillions of rubles for all this resettlement and infrastructure, and most importantly, where will you take the sales markets for the operation of all sorts of factories occupied with non-primary non-energy goods in Siberia and the Far East, but you will have complete ruin only in logistics. People live where it is good and warm, alas, this is not Siberia or the Far East
            for comparison, the territory of permafrost in Russia, as we can see, the proportion is preserved; the population lives where the climate is better

            And at the expense of the design bureau, whose territories will be given for development, they will all be moved to the territory of Moscow technoparks.
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 22: 01
              +1
              Quote: Vadim237
              People live where it is good and warm, alas, this is not Siberia or the Far East

              Again you are talking nonsense Vadik - people live where they can create (!) Conditions for life. The expansion of the Russian people took place to the East and North, and not to the South. History textbook in your hands.
              And the development of the USSR once again confirmed this.
              And according to your logic, the population of Scandinavia should already in full force move out for permanent residence somewhere further south. wink
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 26 February 2021 15: 07
                -1
                This is what you are talking about rubbish. People live where they can create conditions for themselves, but something is not observed in the north of Canada in the same Alaska and in our north "And the development of the USSR once again confirmed this." Only in the USSR it was the forced movement of the masses of people to the north and the construction of cities there, which then began to shit.
                "And according to your logic, the population of Scandinavia should already in full force move to permanent residence somewhere further south." First of all, there is no permafrost and the climate is milder than ours in the northern territories, part of the heat from the golf stream reaches them and the population of these countries is scanty Norway 5.3 million Sweden 10 million Denmark 5.8 million people.
            2. Aleksandr21
              Aleksandr21 26 February 2021 06: 58
              +1
              Quote: Vadim237
              Of course, the idea is super only where you will take tens of trillions of rubles for all this resettlement and infrastructure, and most importantly, where will you take the sales markets for the operation of all sorts of factories occupied with non-primary non-energy goods in Siberia and the Far East, but you will have complete ruin only in logistics. People live where it is good and warm, alas, this is not Siberia or the Far East


              As for the sales markets, well, first of all, this is domestic consumption, I myself live in Omsk and the same dairy products, meat, etc. locally produced (and of good quality), if we talk about foreign markets, then the light did not converge like a wedge in Europe, near the EAEU countries, Asia ... even in the Far East everything is not so bad with its geographical position: near Japan, China, South Korea, etc. .d. another thing is that, of course, this will require colossal investments (transfer of production from Moscow, Moscow region) + as you correctly noted, people try to live where it is good and warm ... with warmth, but not lucky, although people live and live all their lives in their region , but to do well - i.e. living conditions worthy of a salary, this can be done, with the desire and the right policy, so far, unfortunately, this is not observed .... well, about logistics, you are wrong, unless of course you drag products from Moscow to Vladivostok, then yes you can go broke, and if (for example) to make products in the Far East (provided that all components and components of the products will be produced locally and not somewhere there ...) then the costs will not be, over-the-top ... and then by rail, sea - you can deliver the finished products to Asian countries.

              Well, the main argument why it is worth fencing a garden is the threat of losing these territories in the long run, i.e. population decline + mass migration to the European part of Russia, people leave in search of work and a better life ... and with this approach, the territory will become empty, and as you know, "a holy place is never empty", of course someone can object that to whom this territory it is necessary under such conditions of life ... but in the world they are fighting for territories and resources that are much smaller, and there in Siberia-the Far East there is something to take, and with the correct policy of neighboring states (in terms of migration), such things can be done ... ...
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 26 February 2021 15: 18
                0
                But in the world they are fighting for territories and resources that are much smaller, and there in Siberia-the Far East - there is something to take, For which territories they are fighting - that is not a single country was observed fighting for permafrost and glaciers.
                And if (for example) to make products in the Far East (provided that all components and components of products will be produced locally and not somewhere there ...), then the costs will not be, over-the-top ... The local sales market will not recoup all these productions since the demand will be minimal with a minimum population of consumers, and here the transportation from Moscow to Vladivostok does not have to go far - transportation of milk from the Altai Republic where I have an investment production transportation to Yekaterinburg + 50% to the cost of the goods.
                1. Aleksandr21
                  Aleksandr21 26 February 2021 16: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  that then not a single country was observed fighting for permafrost and glaciers.


                  They are not at war yet, but the Arctic has already been divided into zones of influence and everyone (who will have the opportunity and strength) will fight for resources, and Siberia and the Far East are far from the Arctic, the list of resources: from minerals to fresh water supplies is long. there are also territories (uninhabited), remember the earthquake in Japan in 2011? Well, living in such an earthquake-prone area is still a pleasure ... can you imagine Japan going under water in 2050-2100? I can completely admit this to myself ... and in this case, their government must have an evacuation plan and theoretically an attempt to resettle to the mainland with the seizure of territory can happen, of course now this is a fantasy, but in our time, everything can be. Is China close at hand, do you need resources? more like + fresh water, this is perhaps one of the most important resources, and with the right migration policy, you can start a quiet expansion, at the beginning, the composition of the population will change - then focus on the PRC, and then a matter of technology and desire ... and even a bunch of options can be thought of ... For example, could you imagine in 2000-2010 that Crimea would return to Russia and there would be a war in the Donbas? If someone told me about this, at that time ... then I would just laugh, but now the situation in Ukraine is far from funny, so nothing can be ruled out and the government should seriously think about the prospects of these territories.
    3. Malver
      Malver 25 February 2021 14: 13
      +2
      Chertdyukov, putler's friend
  • Ryusey
    Ryusey 25 February 2021 11: 57
    -2
    I, then what?
  • g1v2
    g1v2 25 February 2021 12: 02
    +2
    I. Tolik is my favorite. No one provides massive undermining of farts on a site like him. I began to worry that I had not heard about him for a long time. fellow But then he appeared and immediately caused a tantrum in the Banshee. lol
    Ay, yay. What a bad person. He sends aircraft designers and managers to work from warm money Moscow. Straight Stalin of some kind. You will also see the sharashka will introduce. Totalitarianism however. laughing Is it really possible to send honored people who for 10 years cannot lighten IL112 by 2 tons to the plant? The horror of what's going on.
    Well, Serdyukov was given the old task - to become a surgeon and cut off everything that was rotten and unnecessary. At the same time, get rid of the ballast. I believe in Tolik - he will cope and we will still see pitying articles about how the evil Taburetkin tyrannizes the best people with bright faces and destroys aviation. belay Then a good uncle will come, who will bring everyone down and build a new structure on the basis of the kernel that has been created a little.
    Tolya - burn. I believe in you. fellow
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 25 February 2021 14: 28
      -1
      Quote: g1v2
      Tolya - burn. I believe in you

       I am also for Tolyan. Where did the money go before Serdyukov? That's it. They went to the maintenance of the feeders. The format is an "air force base" with an official regiment, in reality 2-4 vehicles cannibalize the sludge, of which, at best, one is relatively combat-ready, and that is not a fact. But together with ancillary services and security, this took funding for the division.
      Where, under Serdyukov, dead "supposedly bases" with flightless equipment appeared again? Suddenly, they are gone. The bases to be opened have normal staffing levels and combat effectiveness.
      Where are the toad-like military leaders, barely able to move and as if unable to think from eternal alcoholism? Again, tyutyu, in spite of the ranks, you must take it regularly.
      Where is the continuation of purchases of the "newest" (tm) bee sample of the 70s, because "nothing more perfect can be done"? Where is the situation in which, with the same funding, "for some reason" there is no money either for new equipment, or for salaries, or even for paying for energy, which is why military facilities were stupidly disconnected from electricity and heating? Where are the eternally incapacitated ships, but at the entrance to the bases there are kiosks for buying mikruh for gold and alloys? Where are the personnel who, during the service, do not see weapons, but are sold by officers to build dachas to merchants?
      etc. etc.
      Serdyukov turned the army into a working mechanism.
      The main word is working.
      And the hatred on the part of those who have lost their feeding - I somehow don't care. The country needs an army capable of protecting it, and not places for feeding the strippers and those who have attached themselves to them.
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 14: 31
      +14
      Quote: g1v2
      Well, Serdyukov was given the old task - to become a surgeon and cut off everything that was rotten and unnecessary.

      I personally saw Serdyukov's order to disband the country's last helicopter school in Syzran. Is this in your "superfluous and rotten"? fool Thank goodness someone upstairs was smart enough to pull the fucking furniture maker.
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 26 February 2021 09: 39
        -1
        Nobody would have pulled him back. Such decisions were made by him and the head of the General Staff Makarov after discussion with experts. That is, if the order went into action, it means he canceled it himself. There is no one else.
    3. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 14: 01
      +1
      Quote: g1v2
      He sends aircraft designers and managers from warm money Moscow to their work.


      Doesn't send. Because people will not go stupidly.
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 26 February 2021 14: 28
        0
        Then why are they needed? Sitting in a cozy office? We'll have to look for those who will go. If necessary, then teach. And those who do not go, what will they do? Change their careers and positions to a mid-level manager? The work of your whole life? Well, it means that the priorities are set for people. In Soviet times, they went to any part of the country. Moreover, they are not sent to the Arctic and not to the unknown.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 26 February 2021 14: 33
          +1
          Quote: g1v2
          Then why are they needed?


          Aircraft to develop.

          Quote: g1v2
          We'll have to look for those who will go.


          Of course you have to. It's not a fact, it's true, what happens.

          Quote: g1v2
          If necessary, then teach.


          Well, yes, teaching is fast and free. And those who have been trained become slaves - they have no right to go where it is better to live.

          Quote: g1v2
          In Soviet times, they went to any part of the country.


          Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers. And, in case you haven't noticed, the Union hasn't existed for 30 years.
  • veritas
    veritas 25 February 2021 16: 04
    +7
    Quote: Andrew Y.
    who here advocated "effective manager"? eh?

    Only kremlebots. And the efficiency is shown only in cutting.
    1. dSK
      dSK 25 February 2021 17: 00
      +3
      Smart heads who do not want to leave Moscow will go to new Space Center in Fili. 17 enterprises of Roskosmos and MCC from the Moscow region are transferred there. In order for employees to have Moscow bonuses and pensions ...
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 26 February 2021 13: 58
        0
        Quote: dsk
        those who do not want to leave Moscow will move to the new Space Center in Fili.
        Will the seats be allocated in the octagon?
  • Andrew_A
    Andrew_A 25 February 2021 17: 25
    +1
    Boris Martsinkevich. "A few words about Serdyukov" (November 3, 2015. RussiaPost) https://rubin65.livejournal.com/1225374.html
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 25 February 2021 05: 42
    +9
    After the name of Serdyukov, everything became clear and understandable?

    Nothing is clear, what is the reason and purpose of this optimization? Is there any money? ... without the indulgence of the tsar-father, this is impossible ... does he really agree with this document?
    What kind of business is going on there?
    The document requires confirmation from officials ... let's wait with conclusions.
    1. Pilot
      Pilot 25 February 2021 06: 27
      +17
      The UAC got debts from somewhere pollyarda and the type of land Moscow evicted from under the evicted KB want to sell to pay off this debt - only yesterday I read this topic and did not remember where the damn thing .. A fair question arises why the state corporation has such debts, money from the budget did not give or someone so diligently "steered" in their favor. Well, the second question about Serdyukov ... well, it is described in the article, thanks to Roman.
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 25 February 2021 12: 07
        +2
        Because the defense industry mostly spends money, and does not earn it. Any creation of something is a lot of money. Plus, the enterprises that united in Oak many were in debt. Tch these debts were transferred to Oak. Any missed deadlines - losses, etc. The ships in general were written off huge debts that year.
    2. NDR-791
      NDR-791 25 February 2021 06: 53
      +4
      The document requires confirmation from officials ... let's wait with conclusions.
      I totally agree. Digged in the network, the signature strains. Partly similar to Chemezov's signature, but only similar. There is no seal on the document. Although infa about the "great resettlement" all the same has already passed. Will wait.

      Well, about C and helicopters, I said everything yesterday
      1. Volder
        Volder 25 February 2021 08: 32
        +11
        Quote: NDR-791
        There is no seal on the document.
        Minutes of meetings are not stamped.
    3. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 07: 22
      +11
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The document requires confirmation from officials ... let's wait with conclusions.

      Type in the search engine "UAC Transformation", a bunch of links will come out, and many official media outlets.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 25 February 2021 07: 44
        +1
        Thanks for the link ... the situation cleared up a bit. hi
        There is a centralization of powers ...
        by areas of activity, consistent centralization of management, elimination of duplicate administrative functions, creation of general corporate centers of competence and service, expansion of cooperation of production sites for more efficient implementation of aircraft building programs.

        https://uacrussia.ru/ru/press-center/news/oak-uskoryaet-protsess-integratsii-diviziona-voennoy-aviatsii
        Let's see how this will affect the result.
        Who will be put up against the wall if there are no results?
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 25 February 2021 10: 55
          +12
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Who will be put up against the wall if there are no results?

          As usual, that is, no one. They change from one warm chair to another, and that's all. I don't understand at all how a convicted person can work in a high state position? Here, a job in "Magnit", in the presence of enforcement proceedings or unpaid overdue loans are not taken. There are no censorship words anymore.
        2. akarfoxhound
          akarfoxhound 25 February 2021 11: 21
          +12
          Yes, no one will be put up against the wall, what are you talking about? Only the name moved from the moninka to Voronezh. And that's all. Not that the "greyhound" teaching staff refused to move from Moscow to Voronezh, but the entire library with "technical documents" for some reason did not reach the black earth. Lectures to listeners on the sent notes "on military acquaintance" of graduates of the Moscow moninka read. According to the notes !!! Who is there that scribbled question ten in a notebook. And today's teachers are still that "professorship". And the Strategic Missile Forces academy moved from the center of the capital to the outskirts of Moscow. Guess what and who moved there? The effect is like a moninky, but this is not Voronezh. True, a bummer with the building - it did not go for sale, the UN with its youthful managers from the MO all raspberries about .., the building of historical value and world heritage turned out to be empty now. But this is all garbage, there is no academy with people, like an academy in reality. And the topographic institute? Why do the army need maps when there is a GPS? - Tolik was surprised and sold the building, and the office went to zero without moving to zero. Now the red army is using the Soviet paper backlog, the storage facilities are emptying rapidly and that's all, they sailed, a copier to help! And such examples - the sea! And the king does not know, does he? These are all nasty boyars!
  • Destiny
    Destiny 25 February 2021 05: 50
    +21
    The main thing is that Mr. Serdyukov should have somewhere else to frolic.

    Serdyukov has long been a common noun, like Chubais, and the same unsinkable. For whatever they undertake that the other one, they will surely be successful. Perhaps this is precisely their purpose?
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 25 February 2021 06: 09
      +45
      Quote: Destiny
      Serdyukov has long been a household name, like Chubais, and the same unsinkable

      Who are they holding on to? And who made the furniture maker minister of defense?

      ... On March 1 this year, the process of expelling leading aviation firms from Moscow will begin. "Sukhoi", "Irkut", "MiG", "Tupolev", "Ilyushin" - all will be evicted from the capital, and the areas they occupy will be sold for construction.

      Come on, everyone here knows (believes) that Putin raised the army to unprecedented heights. So the destruction of the KB, as well as Serdyukovism with the army, is part of the great upsurge !! You need to understand. Otherwise, you are out of the laudatory trend.
      1. veritas
        veritas 25 February 2021 16: 09
        +3
        Quote: Stas157
        Otherwise you are out of the laudatory trend.

        The trend has already changed. They only praise themselves.
      2. Svarog
        Svarog 25 February 2021 16: 31
        +6
        Quote: Stas157
        Who are they holding on to? And who made the furniture maker minister of defense?

        This question is inconvenient, as well as the one why Serdyukov is free .. but Serdyukov himself is one of the many effective managers ..
    2. Ryusey
      Ryusey 25 February 2021 15: 01
      -6
      What did Serdyukov do away with, only with dates, numbers, and not with gibberish?
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 16: 31
        +5
        Quote: Ryusey
        What did Serdyukov do away with, only with dates, numbers, and not with gibberish?

        Google, request "military schools closed by Serdyukov."
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 25 February 2021 20: 11
          -2
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          Google, request "military schools closed by Serdyukov"

          This list, according to your request, is complete nonsense, it includes military schools that were disbanded in the 90s and even includes the mythical Shadrinsky school of navigators, destroyed by Serdyukov.
          And, this notorious list of schools wanders constantly in the comments, along with the Shadrinsky School of Navigators. There really was such a school, but it was closed in the 50s, when Serdyukov was not yet born.
          You have to be a complete jerk to write such a thing.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 20: 42
            +1
            Quote: bober1982
            This list, at your request, is complete nonsense, it includes military schools that were disbanded in the 90s and even includes the mythical Shadrinsky school of navigators,

            And what, by years, to separate those closed under Serdyukov by years, your calculator is not able to?
            Few? How long will we write off everything for the 90s?
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 25 February 2021 21: 01
              0
              So in this list, by the way, my own military school, which no one has closed, is also among the destroyed.
              They began to destroy military schools at the end of perestroika, they already became a burden. And, after 1991, there was just a collapse, and if Serdyukov closed any schools when he was minister of defense, it was already a parody of military educational institutions. These miserable remnants of the former power had to be raked up.
              The same applies to all these flightless air regiments, it was a real fiction, no one flew, and the peculiarity of flight work is such that during a long break, the personnel quickly and irrevocably passes into the category of air degenerates. And this had to be raked.
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 21: 51
                0
                I don't even know what to say to you. It's hard to carry, so you have to quit, that's all your logic.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 25 February 2021 16: 39
        +5
        Quote: Ryusey
        What did Serdyukov do away with, only with dates, numbers, and not with gibberish?

        Warrant officers with warrant officers, for example.
  • leks
    leks 25 February 2021 06: 12
    +20
    Comrade C, they put it in such places where you need to optimize everything (break up), and then get a quiet money and dump it to another position.
    Obviously, no one will give the go-ahead for this without the knowledge of the "king".
    I can imagine how many square kilometers of area will be vacated for the development of a shopping and entertainment center and residential areas with elite real estate.
    Don't give a damn about the designers and design bureaus, let them go quietly in the direction of Voronezh and Novosibirsk who need them unprofitable in Moscow.
    The staff of these design bureaus is probably looking for a job in Moscow, and someone will explode over the hill (brains allow).
    Because no one in their right mind will go from Moscow to Voronezh or Novosibirsk, this is not only because they are far away, but also because salaries will be lower than those in Moscow, as well as the standard of living is completely different in the provinces.
    1. Destiny
      Destiny 25 February 2021 06: 30
      +20
      Yes, it’s not Soviet times, when the standard of living in the country was approximately the same, and in the "north" there were even more salaries, hardly anyone from Moscow would want to come to us, to the provinces ...
    2. Ryusey
      Ryusey 25 February 2021 15: 02
      -9
      Prove that he ruined, optimized, you are not a balabol, but a serious person?
  • From Tomsk
    From Tomsk 25 February 2021 06: 38
    +21
    The tale of a good tsar and bad boyars has long ceased to work.
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 25 February 2021 06: 38
    +16
    and who is better than Serdyukov or Putin? what is happening in the most high-tech association of the country, the president should probably know
  • mark1969
    mark1969 25 February 2021 06: 47
    +10
    Words cannot describe without a mat.
    am
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 25 February 2021 08: 27
      +2
      Words cannot describe without a mat
      Even worse ... it is now forbidden to pronounce obscenities in words, but we understand you well without these words ... myself, sometimes reading chernukha in the media, I mentally pronounce the whole set of abusive words.
      During quarrels or debates
      There is a wonderful instrument.
      From ignoramuses to aristocrats,
      Checkmate is an argument. hi
      In general, the mass media can also be equated with obscenities ... but alas, our legislators do not want to eliminate this gap in the law.
  • Alien From
    Alien From 25 February 2021 06: 51
    +4
    Only from above can such things be done. It's scary to think if this document is original.
  • 7,62x54
    7,62x54 25 February 2021 06: 53
    +8
    The protocol is incomplete, drawn up incorrectly.
    The following must be indicated: the full name of the secretary, questions for discussion, the person responsible for execution on each issue, the signatures of the participants
    Either it is sticky, or this is the current level of office work.
    1. Moore
      Moore 25 February 2021 07: 32
      +7
      I looked at the changes in the Unified State Register of Legal Entities specified in the PJSC minutes as of 25.02.2021. The legal addresses are the same. Deadline until 01.03.21 - not long left.
    2. Volder
      Volder 25 February 2021 08: 48
      +7
      Quote: 7,62x54
      The following must be indicated: the full name of the secretary, questions for discussion, the person responsible for execution on each issue, the signatures of the participants
      Who are responsible? They are not fools to sign as performers. They understand that one day they will have to answer for their actions. And so - there are no responsible, no signatures. They will say that there was no meeting, and if there was, no one got acquainted with the protocol. That is, they are innocent. Someone else must have signed for Chemezov so that the handwriting examination would not confirm his involvement in the collapse of the aviation industry. Later, the designers themselves, who for some reason decided to relocate, will be blamed for everything.
    3. Alien From
      Alien From 25 February 2021 23: 42
      0
      And there is! We didn’t have fun with the office work teacher wassat
  • leks
    leks 25 February 2021 07: 03
    +10
    Quote: Pilot
    The UAC got debts from somewhere pollyarda and the type of land Moscow evicted from under the evicted KB want to sell to pay off this debt - only yesterday I read this topic and did not remember where the damn thing .. A fair question arises why the state corporation has such debts, money from the budget did not give or someone so diligently "steered" in their favor.


    Do you not understand how debts appear?
    Effective managers have collected loans, have successfully mastered this money for themselves.
    They have not really created or produced anything, so there is no profit, there is no money to pay for their obligations to banks and employees.
    Further, an effective manager stretches out a pleading hand towards the state and, with tears in his eyes, says save help. Voila, the state gives more to pay off debts and throws in from above. In extreme cases, choose the option that is in the article. Then everything is in a new circle.
    In the Russian Federation, this is a win-win option for sucking money out of the budget.
    1. Pilot
      Pilot 25 February 2021 08: 04
      +10
      Quote: leks
      Do you not understand how debts appear?
      Effective managers have collected loans, have successfully mastered this money for themselves.
      They have not really created or produced anything, so there is no profit, there is no money to pay for their obligations to banks and employees.
      I don’t understand such “state” corporations where the state does not actually participate in the work, if managers are allowed to independently collect loans somewhere for their “plans,” Therefore, such a parsley turns out and it is necessary to ask from the roof for such a device.
    2. Alien From
      Alien From 25 February 2021 23: 43
      +1
      Not quite so, but you have built the scheme correctly.
  • U-58
    U-58 25 February 2021 07: 07
    +12
    It would seem that the example of the Tushino plant and the Lightning Design Bureau should horrify and overthrow everyone ...
    But no, he did not horrify and did not overthrow.
    Because THIS is not needed.
    Not that anyone.
    On the contrary, space enthusiasts, patriots still need it!
    But ... they do not make the weather in the state, they do not lead.
    But modern managers do not need space or aviation.
    They want profit.
    And what is strange, at the same time in America, colleagues of our managers are successfully developing the aerospace direction. Because that's their job.
    And ours are preoccupied with profit. But not new Ilami and Tu.
    The trouble is when a state official finds himself in another joint-stock company (that is, a private shop) and starts forging money, but not products.
    It will take 10 years.
    The obvious harmfulness of today's decisions will lead to the degradation of the aviation industry. But the restoration will take decades.
    And even then, if it is the will of the state.
    And if this will does not exist?
    How do you like that, Ilon Musk?
    1. kakvastam
      kakvastam 27 February 2021 00: 22
      +1
      Quote: U-58
      And even then, if it is the will of the state.
      And if this will does not exist?


      With this approach, the state may not exist, what kind of will ...
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 25 February 2021 07: 12
    +16
    It is a pity, very sorry for the work of our grandfathers and fathers. How much effort did they put in to build it all ... But now the enemies are destroying everything, i.e. "optimize" ... The Great Russian Power is inexorably destroyed and turns into an analogue of the Latin American colonies ...
    1. veritas
      veritas 25 February 2021 16: 10
      +2
      Quote: Doccor18
      The Great Russian Power is inexorably collapsing and turning into an analogue of the Latin American colonies ...

      Rather, the Chinese one, the vector of "development" is changing.
  • Khibiny Plastun
    Khibiny Plastun 25 February 2021 08: 09
    +13
    Who else has doubts that Putin and his country looting trust are leading Russia to disaster? It turns out that he is ready to throw a new bone to his minions in the form of the aircraft industry. It means that Putin unbuckled 450 billion for oil pumps two years ago, and there is no money to save the aviation industry, which is vital for the country, but you hold on - after me there is even a deluge. Or the bunker sitter does not reach, that when there will be nothing to sell and steal, his bald head will be in the form of goods.
    And the people continue to be silent ... Let's blow off steam on the Internet ..
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 25 February 2021 09: 17
      +5
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      Let's blow off steam on the Internet ..

      The hashtag # farted, ........ is gaining momentum.
  • Volder
    Volder 25 February 2021 08: 21
    +8
    This article is written on the basis of another, more extended article in the "MK", ​​which is called: The next reform of Serdyukov threatens to bury the hopes of the domestic aircraft industry. Link:
    https://www.mk.ru/politics/2021/02/23/ocherednaya-reforma-serdyukova-grozit-pokhoronit-nadezhdy-na-razvitie-otechestvennogo-aviastroeniya.html
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 25 February 2021 08: 22
    +3
    Well, the room and equipment can be transported and put at least on Iturup, the question is, will people all move to a new address? I doubt that everything is strong. And this is a blow to science and development. And what's the use of moving the beds again? We passed, zero sense from this. Digitization all the more helps with the transfer of drawings and online control from anywhere. Rather, the whole point is in personal interest in the money from the development.
  • Your stranger
    Your stranger 25 February 2021 08: 47
    +8
    Maybe first it is necessary to jail those who, with trillions of budget revenues, did not make sure that Voronezh and Ulyanovsk were no worse than Moscow in terms of living standards?
    1. Soho
      Soho 25 February 2021 11: 06
      -2
      That is, a million residents of Voronezh and half a million residents of Ulyanovsk? Or maybe let's shoot them right away, why waste time on trifles?
      1. Your stranger
        Your stranger 25 February 2021 12: 43
        0
        Living standards are made less by residents, more by local and federal authorities,
        Do not believe me, ask those who went to rest or live in baden-baden, karlovy vary, nitsa, etc.,
        And these cities are far from the capitals of their states!
        Another example,
        In the United States, the capital is Washington, the main place is New York,
        And norton gruman, los angeles headquarters,
        Boeing - Chicago
        Lockheed martin
        Headquarters in Bethesda (Maryland), USA.,
        Space Exploration Technologies Corporation (SpaceX) is an American space technology company. Headquarters - in Hawthorne, California, USA,
        1. Soho
          Soho 25 February 2021 12: 55
          -4
          Living standards are made less by residents, more by local and federal authorities,

          Dada, in your alternative universe the citizens themselves have nothing to do with it, and the power is the reptilians who flew from the planet Nibiru. What are you smoking so bad? GUNK MIA in the know?
          1. Your stranger
            Your stranger 25 February 2021 13: 02
            +2
            It turns out it wasn't NATO soldiers who made shit in Voronezh?
            And then they made such a mess that a Moscow engineer would disdain to move there!
      2. lukewarm
        lukewarm 25 February 2021 13: 02
        +3
        Quote: Soho
        let's shoot them right away, why waste time on trifles

        Not our method. The virus and the market will be solved.
    2. forty-eighth
      forty-eighth 25 February 2021 13: 12
      +5
      In addition to the standard of living, there is also health, family, relatives, friends, a sofa, a library, a dog ...
      Half of this will have to be abandoned, the other half - somehow transported to no one knows where (will they give an apartment?). After forty, only a few will go for this, young people can still move relatively painlessly, but they have their own reasons not to leave Moscow.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 44
        -2
        And they won't have to leave Moscow because they will move to Moscow technoparks.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 February 2021 09: 02
    +7
    For example, during his time as a minister, a brilliant idea gasped in the ministerial head: to enlarge airfields. There is nothing, for example, to maintain regimental airfields. It is necessary to dazzle the huge airfields on which the mixed divisions will be stationed. Specifically, the planes of the Kursk Khalin, the Voronezh bomber regiment and training aircraft from Borisoglebsk were to be brought down to the Voronezh "Baltimore".


    You can't go to Voronezh, they don't know that "ours" will bomb Voronezh before New York ... from an anecdote. But seriously, everything is dull.
  • Maalkavianin
    Maalkavianin 25 February 2021 09: 07
    -5
    The article is crying that engineers and managers will be relocated from the capital to the castle. They will begin to pay not Moscow, but Russian salaries.
    1. lukewarm
      lukewarm 25 February 2021 13: 12
      +5
      Cry (without b) that for decades (previously even successfully) working firms have begun to enlarge and "optimize". As already "optimized" medicine, education, the army (and the same character). Even earlier - other industries to which the pens reached. We all experience the results for ourselves. And the "moving to the castle", sounded by you, is just a small touch to the picture. And, perhaps surprisingly, the salaries of Moscow defense workers are much closer to the provinces than to the rest of Moscow. This is, of course, not about leadership.
      1. rjpthju
        rjpthju 25 February 2021 17: 11
        +4
        "And, perhaps surprisingly, salaries in Moscow are much closer to the provinces than to the rest of Moscow."
        This is logical. Our traders make money. And smart specialists are being forced out to the West.
      2. Maalkavianin
        Maalkavianin 25 February 2021 17: 48
        -5
        Serdyukov was not responsible for medicine and education. He was appointed the army scapegoat, and behind his back there were people at
        ranks and shoulder straps. Yes, he may have been stealing, he even managed to mess things up, but he did his job. Apparently now it's the turn for aviation. And once he was appointed, the industry actually rotted away. And it is again made a convenient lightning rod for public opinion. And the article is just pressure on emotions, in the style of "oh, what is going on?" And in the end, it all comes down to the fact that someone does not want to lose money, and that's all. There is no trace of patriotism and joy for the motherland and its successes here.
        1. lukewarm
          lukewarm 25 February 2021 18: 02
          +3
          I remember very well who was responsible for what. You, I think, have understood the point: "optimization" equals reduction and collapse. And you are not voicing a new version. There was already about the "secret decree" and "Hero of Russia". We agreed to the point that the Crimea was returned by its merits.
          Quote: Malkavianin
          Yes, he may have been stealing, he even managed to mess things up, but he did his job.

          request And this is not enough ?! So calmly talk about it? And what did he do? Destroyed the rotten and sold the non-rotten?
          Quote: Malkavianin
          Apparently now it's the turn for aviation. And once he was appointed, the industry actually rotted away.

          They clearly expressed about the queue, as if we were talking to Serdyukov himself. Excuse me, but the industry itself is rotting? Nobody created such conditions for her? On the basis of what such statements, especially the same persons who do all this cheerfully report on modernization and import substitution? When your turn comes, will you take it as calmly?
          1. Maalkavianin
            Maalkavianin 25 February 2021 20: 34
            -1
            And in your opinion, we need to leave everything as it is, fold our hands and remember the glorious times of the Union, which has been gone for 30 years? They say let it fall apart, come a wise, honest, responsible, and so on and so on, and everything will be adjusted?
  • leks
    leks 25 February 2021 09: 20
    +9
    Quote: Pilot
    Quote: leks
    Do you not understand how debts appear?
    Effective managers have collected loans, have successfully mastered this money for themselves.
    They have not really created or produced anything, so there is no profit, there is no money to pay for their obligations to banks and employees.
    I don’t understand such “state” corporations where the state does not actually participate in the work, if managers are allowed to independently collect loans somewhere for their “plans,” Therefore, such a parsley turns out and it is necessary to ask from the roof for such a device.


    To our great regret, this is life in the "OOO" RF. The state has withdrawn itself from this type of activity, the maximum that they can pull it up or threaten with a finger
    "Zine is where the money" and in response hundreds of replies and excuses.

    The concept of words was changed.
    "steal-master"
    "reduction-optimization" and so on.

    Gangster Petersburg. Lawyer ”words Antibiotic.
    "In our time, Seryozha, you can steal a bicycle and give all your health in prison. Or you can steal in wagons and always stay afloat. In Russia, stealing trains is much safer than bicycles, I'm telling you this specifically."

    Antibiotic is wrong about one thing, but 90 years discount. Now, if you have money, then in the zone, you will live in excellent conditions. Eat great, have fun, dress, communication, tv, internet, a girl on request, no problem. Under such conditions, three five years will quickly fly by, and then again to a high position or over the hill. Funds from offshore, no court will pull out.
    1. Pilot
      Pilot 25 February 2021 10: 00
      +5
      This ,, LLC ,, consists of security officers, traders, lawyers and economists of the Higher School of Economics, well, and other crap .. well, of course, if a person is talented, he is well versed in other areas, not in words, but in deeds, but as we see talents are not observed from the word absolutely. Well, this is if you do not bother with the theory that it is specially arranged so as not to allow the development of the raw materials appendage of the West and in return it is allowed to engage in robbery. wink
  • d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 25 February 2021 09: 39
    0
    It’s time for the state to intervene directly, but, as usual, if it does, it’s too late, as was the case with Serdyukov’s other reforms. If the real estate does not give so much peace, well, they would be transferred to the state in exchange for debts, and the state would make technoparks, in which sufficient areas would be allocated to engineers. The practice of preferential lease for residents of technoparks is widespread, after all, these are jobs. Why does Moscow need space without jobs, for the next renovation and unnecessary shopping centers in our time? No one argues that it is possible that it is not advisable to keep surplus areas with archives of drawings in Moscow, but why take away the jobs.
    1. rjpthju
      rjpthju 25 February 2021 10: 15
      +7
      What are you talking about? Who is there to interfere? The past has shown that the owner does not give up his own.
  • Runway
    Runway 25 February 2021 09: 48
    +7
    If you read the "document" carefully:
    1. Transfer of legal addresses of design bureaus to factories in the Russian Federation - legal cleaning of territories within the Moscow Ring Road.
    2. KB and management represented by UP after optimization (transfer of positions to new legal addresses / factories = rolling eggs on the table) will be packed into one pile where they can be placed.
    3. After moving from Moscow to the Russian Federation, the remaining humanoids will be tested once again and whose eyes do not shine with devotion will be “optimized”.
    Basically - nothing new ...
  • mik193
    mik193 25 February 2021 09: 52
    +3
    At the beginning of the article, the protocol is posted. I would very much like all the names mentioned in it to appear in the future only in the lists of those convicted of sabotage and sabotage or (which is optimal) sentenced to the highest measure of social protection for treason. How long can you stare at outspoken enemies?
  • rjpthju
    rjpthju 25 February 2021 10: 14
    -3
    One mat is torn from the inside. How long !!! There is no master in Russia.
    1. Soho
      Soho 25 February 2021 11: 00
      -3
      Judging from experience, the only one who is guided by the method of one Georgian leader can be the master in Russia: to shoot every tenth Russian, regardless of his guilt. Then the order will be guaranteed. After all, Stalin was the master. Now many are nostalgic for those times (and the fewer those who lived in those days, the more nostalgia for some reason). Only one snag - and if you get into the list of these "every tenth"?
      1. Your stranger
        Your stranger 25 February 2021 13: 04
        -1
        Korolev to jail is it Khazi?
        1. rjpthju
          rjpthju 25 February 2021 16: 53
          0
          Korolyov became QUEEN then. And at the time of his arrest, he was one of many engineers. And he became so, perhaps, thanks to the sharashka.
      2. rjpthju
        rjpthju 25 February 2021 16: 49
        +1
        By the Master, I mean a person who will not think about his own pocket, but about the people, the country. By the way, Stalin is an example in this respect. From 1947 to 1953, he cut prices and raised wages six times. Under Stalin, there were 10% of acquittals, now less than 1%. And the main accuser, Khrushchev, he even upset in his zeal to destroy people. This is documented. And then he covered Stalin with mud.
        1. Your stranger
          Your stranger 25 February 2021 19: 03
          0
          What was Korolev imprisoned for?
          1. rjpthju
            rjpthju 26 February 2021 05: 25
            -1
            I'm not saying that he was imprisoned for something. Human envy, rats, denunciations and a man there. And now a little is sitting for nothing? The same legal chaos. Look at the historian Spitsyn. He puts everything on the shelves, reasoned, leads the documents.
            1. Your stranger
              Your stranger 26 February 2021 08: 29
              0
              Why did the father of nations not plant donoschiks and so on?
              1. rjpthju
                rjpthju 26 February 2021 11: 37
                0
                Look (read) Spitsin, as he wrote above
  • BAI
    BAI 25 February 2021 10: 41
    +11
    It is absolutely the right idea to withdraw various institutions, corporations, departments from Moscow. It is impossible for everything to be concentrated in Moscow and the rest of the cities to die. They took Gazprom to St. Petersburg. Nobody died, a lot of people went there, housing prices in St. Petersburg immediately rose. Such a taxpayer has arrived. By the way, the COP was taken to St. Petersburg. In general, I would disperse all Moscow offices around the periphery to revitalize local cities. Rostec - to Irkutsk, Rosatom - to Nizhny Novgorod, Roskosmos - in general, to Vostochny, so that the construction of the cosmodrome would be directly controlled.
    Gosdu.ru - to Vladimir, SovFed - to Kostroma, etc.
    Many high-paying jobs will appear in the province, which will immediately revive life there. And now some (and very few) cities are drowning in money, while others are begging. Because they correctly said in the train carriage "Moscow - Peter": "All the money is in Moscow, you have to go to Moscow." They said correctly, but the situation is not correct.
    Why don't people from Moscow want to go to the periphery for the same salary? But because the infrastructure is not at all the same. Why is she not the same? Because there is no money, which in Moscow and paving slabs are constantly being changed because there is nothing to do. And why are people living on the periphery worse than Muscovites? Why is everything to a small part of the population, and nothing to the majority? Because there is little of everything and not enough for everyone?
    1. Pilot
      Pilot 25 February 2021 11: 02
      +5
      Yes, it is convenient for the rulers if only boyars and their servility will live in non-rubber, no one gets confused under their feet and the walls of the Kremlin will not sway - not life, but raspberries spilled out. wassat This is me on the issue of eviction of production workers, so no one is going to evict the State Duma and Federation Council. wink
    2. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 25 February 2021 11: 23
      +8
      Well, Khrunichev tried to take the production to Omsk, did it work? Moscow has its advantages in the form of human potential, you have to be an idiot not to use it. And then it turns out that Boeing has jobs in Moscow, but the UAC does not. It's not about the tiles. People do not want to live in wastelands, without medical care and basic amenities. But of course, you shouldn't forget about money, construction projects in Siberia were all about money. There is no need to forcibly overclock and relocate - the latter will still not work. Only material incentives. And you shouldn't have a fever.
    3. Nitarius
      Nitarius 25 February 2021 12: 17
      +3
      but every now and then! grain fields and the production of oil and coal, the same is not going in Moscow ... but all the money, the local parasites get it!
    4. lukewarm
      lukewarm 25 February 2021 12: 25
      +6
      Another would be to withdraw the Ministry of Finance, Central Bank and others. From Moscow. Ideally, from the Russian Federation. Number - to optimize. As a bonus, many expensive graves will appear. But for some reason, KB is being evicted.
      1. dauria
        dauria 26 February 2021 02: 58
        +2
        Another would be to withdraw the Ministry of Finance, Central Bank and others. From Moscow. Ideally, from the Russian Federation.


        Are you right to torture people? Families with children in Italy stick around, and the poor fellows have to travel to Moscow to work. Maybe let them lead "remotely"? And even better - they will lease us to the Chinese or someone else .... Or have they already passed it?
      2. rjpthju
        rjpthju 26 February 2021 12: 39
        0
        I will concretize. Withdraw the staff of leaders.
    5. Kronos
      Kronos 25 February 2021 12: 29
      +3
      Housing price increases are always bad for the local population.
    6. seacap
      seacap 25 February 2021 13: 42
      +8
      I agree that the re-concentration of everything and everything in one metropolis, where 10% of the country's population and 90% of funds are concentrated, is a direct and obvious threat to the country's existence. Those. the capital already poses a clear danger to the country, and even taking into account that the metropolitan nobility behaves in relation to the periphery and regions as a conquering metropolis. Where does the capital's so-called. business and money, everything dies there quickly, after which "scorched earth", death, destroyed everyday life and local color, what remains is only drunkenness, drugs and general crime, dying villages and old people. I myself have seen a similar picture more than once.
      Almost all over the world, the capital is a small city with a small population, where, as a rule, there is no industry or production.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 52
        -4
        This is how Moscow and the Moscow region, with their own GDP under 30 trillion rubles a year, are dangerous the more people live, the more money turns and the better the infrastructure, but what really poses a danger is the total idleness of local officials in all 85 regions at all levels they allocate 1.5 trillion rubles every year for the development of the regions, and at the end of the year, almost a trillion of this amount is returned back as stupidly spent on nothing.
    7. rjpthju
      rjpthju 25 February 2021 16: 59
      +2
      The direction of thought is correct, but the aviation design bureau, and all aviation, will be kirdyk. When will she recover from this ...? And will it recover ...
      1. seacap
        seacap 26 February 2021 19: 47
        +1
        No restoration and development is envisaged in the plans of the overseas owners and "effective managers", it is not for this that they pumped so much effort and resources into this territory, which was once a great power.
    8. Titus_2
      Titus_2 26 February 2021 02: 49
      -3
      Sir, from your lips, a Muscovite is by definition sitting on money because of this other regions suffer. Maybe all the same, the point is that we all got the government we deserved and it is not true to roll out all claims to Muscovites. And by the way, it is not a Muscovite who changes the curbs. In fact, the majority of Muscovites are not happy either ... unless the percentage of those who are sitting on financial flows is a little more.
    9. kakvastam
      kakvastam 27 February 2021 00: 32
      0
      Are you not a financier for an hour? And the level of analysis is too indicative.
      Gazprom's servants do not care where to sit, they have a very indirect relationship to production. With KB, everything is a little different, this is not accounting and not a call center, you cannot just type in an ad.
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 25 February 2021 11: 42
    +1
    then what to say about Novosibirsk or Komsomolsk?
    Komsomolsk is not something to say, not even worth mentioning ...
  • Ka-52
    Ka-52 25 February 2021 11: 50
    +7
    For three years, representatives of the Yakovlev Design Bureau have been sitting at the same Voronezh aircraft plant and are trying to make a resin that would be even remotely similar to the American one.

    Roman, in order not to be a chatterbox, you should:
    1. Know that the Yakovlev Design Bureau is not involved in the development of the "chemistry" of the composite. Yakovlevites design structural elements based on the specified parameters.
    2. To know that the Vakovites are not engaged in the production of composite for the MS-21 wing. This task is entrusted to the AK in Ulyanovsk.
    3. Introduce HOW the process of creating aircraft structural elements is going on and with what time frame. In your alternate reality, Americans probably got this polymer in a week. laughing
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 25 February 2021 13: 30
      +3
      Quote: Ka-52
      In your alternate reality, Americans probably got this polymer in a week.

      For a century and a half, Americans have been continuously developing resin and coating technologies without major shocks. When they needed to make a difficult wing for the Catalina, they made it without inventing anything - all the materials, technologies and specialists in the required volume were already available.
      In addition, they have enough experience and finance to develop materials for the future.
      So they got the polymer modification for the wing quickly.
      1. Viktor Afanasev
        Viktor Afanasev 25 February 2021 17: 18
        +2
        I agree. And they (the USA) still have managers who are focused on development, albeit at the expense of others. And with us, managers, only to the collapse of everything ... In such conditions, any progress is a miracle. Thanks to the altruists, but I'm afraid they won't be left soon, and it's understandable why ...
      2. Ka-52
        Ka-52 26 February 2021 08: 08
        -1
        a century and a half have been continuously developing resin technology

        a century and a half? belay A century and a half ago, the Civil War ended in the United States and Russia sold Alaska to it. What polymer and epoxy resins, oxides! And they also began to make a wing for the OA-10, right after the Civil War, Abraham Batkovich Lincoln himself probably did? laughing I understand that you can splendor on the Great Mattress, but not to the same stupidity laughing In fact, even synthetic rubber was obtained at the beginning of the 20th century, and epoxy was first welded somewhere in the 40s. EMNIP. got it somewhere in Europe, not in the USA.
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 26 February 2021 09: 10
          +1
          Quote: Ka-52
          What polymer and epoxy resins, oxides!

          I don't like demagogues
          a century and a half ago - this is about 1880
          at that time in the USA there was already a serious industry, and the resins went mainly to the fleet
          And you just made up about polymerization. Nobody talked about her. But it has already been known since about 1850, although the theoretical basis for it was summed up only in 1922 after a series of discoveries in chemistry that began after Mendeleev's discoveries.
          It was the large volumes of construction of the fleet, mainly commercial, that led the United States to traditionally highly developed areas in the chemical industry.
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 26 February 2021 09: 54
            -1
            I don't like demagogues

            first, realize what demagoguery is. And it turned out just as wrong as with the composite lol
            Demagoguery is a deliberate influence on the feelings, instincts of people, a hypocritical adaptation to the tastes of the unconscious part of the masses in order to achieve their goals.

            now about the resins.
            at that time in the USA there was already a serious industry, and the resins went mainly to the fleet

            before writing such nonsense, take an interest in what impregnated the wood of ships in the 19th century. And also what is epoxy resin from the point of view of chemistry. With natural it has in common only the word "resin". I remind you once again that epoxy resin (the simplest filler for organoplastics) appeared only in the middle of the 20th (!!!) century. Enough here to write about events in your parallel universe. Maybe they learned to produce polyesters there at the same time as mastering the technique of knitting bast shoes, but in the real world this is not so)))
            It was the large volumes of construction of the fleet, mainly commercial, that led the United States to traditionally highly developed areas in the chemical industry.

            The most advanced chemical industry in the 19th and early 20th centuries was in Europe. Find another way to impress me with your beloved USA lol
            a century and a half ago - this is about 1880

            this is "about" 1871. What a bad luck - they were wrong for 9 years. About laughing
            1. yehat2
              yehat2 26 February 2021 10: 02
              +1
              Quote: Ka-52
              epoxy resin

              you have a loop problem. Look where I wrote that it has been produced in the USA for a century and a half.
              I talked about something else - about the infrastructure for using resins, not what they are.
              Quote: Ka-52
              The most advanced chemical industry in the 19th and early 20th centuries was in Europe.

              oh, this is probably a brilliant discovery. But you forgot that specialists were constantly leaving the USA. Especially Bismarck and other German bigwigs complained about this, where just from 1870 the industry began to grow rapidly, including the chemical one. Scientists from Victorian small Britain also traveled briskly to the United States. An example of the state of technology in the United States is the argument typical of those years about who created radio. Practically, at the same time, these works were carried out in 3 completely different points of the planet and not only in 3, including in the USA.
              And chemical innovations also quickly got across the ocean.
              So, it seems to me that your overly archaic ideas about that time are not substantiated.
              1. Ka-52
                Ka-52 26 February 2021 10: 14
                0
                And chemical innovations also quickly got across the ocean.
                So, it seems to me that your overly archaic ideas about that time are not substantiated.

                I am not belittling the contribution of North American chemists to world science and industry. But that's not the point. If you meticulously poke around in the history of the composite, then you can fall down to Mongolian bows glued with fish glue. But we're talking about reinforced polymers! And here it is worth starting with the fact that fiberglass was invented in the 20th century, polymer plastics and polyester resins - also in the 20th century. So "Americans have been continuously developing resin technologies for a century and a half" from your commentary is sheer nonsense.
                1. yehat2
                  yehat2 26 February 2021 10: 22
                  +1
                  Quote: Ka-52
                  "Americans have been continuously developing resin technologies for a century and a half" from your comment, this is sheer nonsense.

                  glad you switched to constructive.
                  but the problem is you can't hear me.
                  technology is not only a technological process and a textbook entry.
                  It is also a ready-made experimental base and industrial infrastructure for use.
                  This is what has been actively developed in the United States, making it easier to work on resins and their applications.
                  by 1918, the United States had already become the world leader in the export of resins and various wood bonding compounds. And they have not lost these positions today.
                  This is what I am trying to convey by describing why this component for the wings first appeared there.
                  1. Ka-52
                    Ka-52 26 February 2021 10: 33
                    0
                    It is also a ready-made experimental base and industrial infrastructure for use.
                    This is what has been actively developed in the United States, making it easier to work on resins and their applications.

                    all I wanted to say about the history of the composite in general and fillers in particular I have already written. I have nothing to add. request
                    by 1918, the United States had already become the world leader in the export of resins and various wood bonding compounds. And they have not lost these positions today.

                    Well, this pattern is far-fetched. History is full of deviations from this rule. The first nuclear physicists were Germans and French, and the greatest development in the practical field was achieved by Russians and Americans))
                    1. yehat2
                      yehat2 26 February 2021 10: 37
                      +1
                      Quote: Ka-52
                      the greatest development in the practical field was achieved by Russians and Americans

                      you again stubbornly confuse the development of science and industry
                      The USSR and the United States advanced because they were able to build all the necessary production components in a short time.
                      USA - because there is a lot of money, the USSR because it could concentrate efforts very effectively.
                      And the pampering of the Curies with a funny mineral is a trifle, a decoration that costs nothing.
  • Nitarius
    Nitarius 25 February 2021 12: 12
    -22%
    That's all, you can say goodbye to the Sukhoi Design Bureau. I don’t know who will go from Moscow to the Far East. If no one rushed to Voronezh for 500 km, then what to say about Novosibirsk or Komsomolsk? --------------- Author! that's just for that people like you .. must put up to the wall! if the goal is to create airplanes ... people will go! and if the goal .. ass in warmth and in the capital ... then yes! so ... stop whining!
    1. Kronos
      Kronos 25 February 2021 12: 30
      +6
      People suddenly want to live better, too, even those who create.
    2. Roman070280
      Roman070280 25 February 2021 13: 17
      +12
      Author! that's just for that people like you .. must put up to the wall!


      Well, yes .. the author to the wall, the Serdyukov Prize, and the order for Putin ..
      And you 20 rubles ...

      if the goal is to create airplanes ... people will go!

      In the capitalist world, no one has such goals .. There is only one goal - money ..
      Where they pay more, where the ass is warmer, people rush there ..
      This is not the Soviet Union, when people threw themselves under the tanks for the sake of the country and other people ..
      1. Nestor Vlakhovski
        Nestor Vlakhovski 25 February 2021 15: 13
        -2
        This is not the Soviet Union, when people threw themselves under the tanks for the sake of the country and other people.

        Well, yes, in capitalist countries there are probably fewer examples of feat and self-sacrifice, yeah.
        Where they pay more, where the ass is warmer - there people rush
        And in the USSR, of course, everything was different, people worked for the idea :)))
        In the capitalist world, no one has such goals .. There is only one goal - money
        ... and power. These are the laws of nature, in the capital countries they were able to turn these laws for the benefit of the people, and Russia has traditionally gone its own way.
        1. Roman070280
          Roman070280 25 February 2021 15: 30
          +4
          Well, yes, in capitalist countries there are probably fewer examples of feat and self-sacrifice, yeah.



          Not sure, but for sure !!

          And in the USSR, of course, everything was different, people worked for the idea :)))

          Right!! In the USSR there was an idea, now it is not at all ..
          Read the memoirs of pilots, missilemen .. The same Korolev, his deputies .. How to export factories across the Urals, even in Catherine's barracks, coal was taken out of the floor, and the glass was set at 40 degrees below zero .. so that the plane could be developed there !!
          Of course, everything was different in the USSR, this is not disputed ..

          and power. These are the laws of nature

          Money / power are almost synonyms .. it's hard to imagine one without the other ..
          And this does not in any way correlate with going to hell, "in order to create airplanes" ..
          1. Nestor Vlakhovski
            Nestor Vlakhovski 25 February 2021 16: 26
            -7
            Not sure, but for sure !!
            Not probably, but bullshit. Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance.
            Right!! In the USSR there was an idea, now it is not at all ..
            How was your "idea" different from a religious teaching? You cannot live without a tsar in your head ... So you have already returned to you "Orthodoxy, autocracy, nationality", this is your new idea. Is the landmark clear?
            The same Korolev, his deputies
            Especially Korolev and Glushko were noble communists, it’s a pity they don’t know about this, therefore, imbued in the camps with love for the native party, they expressed themselves not very favorably about the country of Soviets :)
            how, while exporting factories beyond the Urals, even in Catherine's barracks, coal was taken out of the floor, and the glass was placed at 40 degrees below zero .. so that the plane could be developed there !!
            Between being shot and working for the party, the choice was obvious. Ostarbeiters for the Germans also worked for wear and tear, but you don't think of them as ideological Nazis, for some reason. Dissonance.
            Money / power are almost synonymous
            Almost, but from a psychological point of view, there is a difference. Therefore, as a rule, power is preferred over money.
            it's hard to imagine one without the other
            It's easy to imagine - look at an army or a prison.
          2. Vadim237
            Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 55
            -3
            "There was an idea in the USSR, now there is none at all." What idea is not a utopia for an hour in the form of building communism?
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 25 February 2021 12: 13
    +2
    This is the handiwork of the "fifth column" ... The mishandled hirelings of international imperialism are harmful. laughing
    1. vik669
      vik669 25 February 2021 12: 19
      +3
      Yes, we have all our rottenness creeping out of all the cracks, we don’t need someone else's, we will not stand for the price!
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 25 February 2021 12: 22
        +4
        It, the rot has not disappeared anywhere and has not crawled into the crack, it is enough to remember EBN.
        1. Nestor Vlakhovski
          Nestor Vlakhovski 25 February 2021 15: 06
          0
          And what do you EBN, almost all this "rot" membership cards are available, and mentors from even more ancient times.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • lukewarm
    lukewarm 25 February 2021 12: 20
    +7
    Yes ... The beginning of the year abounds. As if not worse than the past. Certainly no better than the coronavirus, this unsinkable and unplantable. His art is still hiccuped by the army. But, apparently, this is the policy: we threaten the West with a fist, and we ourselves, under the Chihara, we saw and took apart what was left.
  • Escobar
    Escobar 25 February 2021 12: 29
    +5
    It is necessary to shoot such managers, worse external enemies for the country
    1. seacap
      seacap 25 February 2021 13: 28
      +7
      They are external, they work here for their sake, in no way connecting their future with the country that they rob and destroy, ensuring other people's interests, for the sake of overseas owners.
  • Roman070280
    Roman070280 25 February 2021 13: 06
    +7
    Well, who in his right mind, after reading this article, will still say that our president is not a swindler or a thief who does not care about everything, the main thing is to keep his "Serdyukovs" near the feeding troughs ..
  • yehat2
    yehat2 25 February 2021 13: 23
    +10
    I did not understand why Serdyukov, and not Chemezov, whose signature is on the documents. And of course, it is very strange that the reorganization is underway right now and with vague consequences. After all, a number of key projects - su-57, ms-21 and others need not only be completed, but done quickly, if you do not pay attention to a bunch of other circumstances. I would not call Novosibirsk a hole where no one wants to go, but the losses from one-time movement are simply gigantic.
    Я
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 February 2021 14: 18
      +6
      Quote: yehat2
      I would not call Novosibirsk a hole where no one wants to go, but the losses from one-time movement are simply gigantic.

      Of course. Indeed, when Serdyukov was minister of defense, the military engineering institute was moved from Togliatti to St. Petersburg with the same "good" intentions. more than half of the teachers did not go to St. Petersburg, not everyone will go from their native places to the unknown. And this "optimization" and consolidation poured out sideways.
    2. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 25 February 2021 14: 30
      +5
      I agree. I remember when I passed the entrance examinations at NSTU in 2000, those who could not enroll in others entered the faculty of flying machines, with three-point results. Such will design be healthy. And now the school graduation is half. There is no one there to design aircraft, the whole of Siberia in terms of population is equal to or less than Moscow time + MO.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 25 February 2021 14: 36
        +2
        Quote: d4rkmesa
        There is no one there to design aircraft, the whole of Siberia in terms of population is equal to or less than Moscow time + MO.

        I would not look down on the graduates of NETI (I remember him so)
        there is a school and environment, and if a person wants, he will learn a lot.
        he studied at NSU himself.
        1. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 25 February 2021 14: 47
          +1
          Sorry, I didn’t mean graduates, I’m rather human potential in general. There are talents, just statistically there are fewer of them. All over Siberia, you need to lure. I must say that in Novosibirsk the situation has improved now, universities have slightly risen in ratings and activity. It was at the end of the 90s that there was a uniform menagerie in some faculties. However, it is possible that they were later turned into specialists. And nevertheless, in the first places are universities from Moscow time and, in some places, St. Petersburg. And, not competing for their graduates is somewhat rash. Or, it turns out that the UAC obviously does not have money for specialists from them. Then what is the point in general in budgetary places in these universities? A rhetorical question. ) Well, wait and see.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 25 February 2021 14: 51
            +5
            Quote: d4rkmesa
            It was in the late 90s there was a uniform menagerie

            I was studying at that time. yes, it was very difficult.
            The hardest thing to understand is why this suffering, if the nouveau riche lived nearby much better.
            I saw how many students just dropped out of school and went to the stalls, and scientists switched to work in the West or China.
  • seacap
    seacap 25 February 2021 13: 25
    +10
    And our "guarantor" will continue to talk to the TV, while "effective managers" destroy the last assets of the country and deprive us of the prospects for further existence as at least some significant country? With his own "filing", I doubt that at least someone would lift a finger without his direction, they pulled this person out into the "light of day" and destroyed the legendary formations and military, academic school, engineering and experimental centers, which had no analogues in the world. the guarantor awarded this ghoul without honor and conscience with the highest rank for unparalleled heroism and selfless courage in the fight against the RF Armed Forces. A few years ago, after our "bashful" media outlets modestly announced the new appointment of the "furniture maker" in a corner, I realized that about Tu, Yaki and Ila, etc. Now we will only read in books and show children their products in pictures, and occasionally move around the country exclusively on Boeings and Airbuses, who can pay for a ticket, at the cost of a flight to the Moon and back. Our aircraft industry looks like a khan, and rightly so, why it is to us, without aluminum, the industry which another "effective manager" handed over to overseas friends and partners, for permission to kiss the pen and to whip on the cheeks less often. So who else doubts that the upper class of the nobility and the boyar leadership of the country does not create the impression of a colonial administration, fulfilling the instructions of the metropolis to destroy everything that the once great victorious people created and prided themselves on, now loyal and brought to their knees by their own stupefied with impunity and irresponsibility nobility.
  • JD1979
    JD1979 25 February 2021 14: 53
    +9
    Correctly dragging Sedyukov, chase them to the neck, to Siberia parasites, with their design bureaus, stands, platforms, and then you know they sit in the capital, occupy a valuable area. Meanwhile, in the center there is no longer any land to build houses for elite managers and their families from the castle))) You understand injustice) To their factory! let them live there in the back room)) and the stands are not needed, now the camputars are so smart that you want to draw! Like the Federation on Mars, like the Eagle on Jupiter - Rogozin won't lie, the trampolines are ready to launch the next ISS crew into orbit)
  • Nestor Vlakhovski
    Nestor Vlakhovski 25 February 2021 15: 02
    -3
    Why feed these parasites who do not create anything useful? Only papier-mâché layouts.
    Design bureaus should be with aircraft manufacturers and be fed by mass production.
    Where is Serdyukov wrong?
  • lis-ik
    lis-ik 25 February 2021 15: 15
    +5
    This is all called "renovation" and the entertainer is Sobyanin, who is also a reindeer herder. The area is needed for building, on expensive Moscow land. More damage to the city was not caused by a single war, like the mayor from hell knows where, who got hold of big money. Burn him in hell.
    1. veritas
      veritas 25 February 2021 16: 12
      +6
      Quote: lis-ik
      More damage to the city was not caused by a single war, like the mayor from hell knows where, who got hold of big money.

      He was appointed to this position, he has a patron and he is happy with him.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 25 February 2021 20: 59
      -3
      Thanks to him, the transport infrastructure of Moscow has improved several times and has become much more convenient "More damage to the city has not been caused by a single war, as the mayor knows where from, who got hold of big money. He will burn in hell." - You're carrying garbage.
  • avia12005
    avia12005 25 February 2021 15: 19
    +5
    Killed aircraft, killed in Russia and its production. Long live non-commissioned furniture.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 25 February 2021 15: 35
    +3
    ... I got scared for the air defense ...
    mmm, and it smelled like tragedy !!!
  • TT62o
    TT62o 25 February 2021 15: 52
    0
    It will not be surprising if, after the move, all these design bureaus are privatized. In the United States, this is private.
  • Svarog
    Svarog 25 February 2021 16: 25
    +4
    And, as you already understood, nothing good will happen. Well, not that country, in fact, to break through, break free, catch up and overtake.

    The country is no longer the same .. it's true .. lost the country.
    1. DWG1905
      DWG1905 25 February 2021 17: 14
      +8
      We have already discussed this idea of ​​moving - uniting. Well, first of all, the protocol is real, who doubts it. This idea is still comrade. Poghosyan if that. Since 15 years ago it was clear that due to the loss of aircraft sales markets, the structure of the aviation industry is excessive. There is no desire to win back the markets of strength and desire; something must be done. Even if we assume that the Superjet was started by extremely naive people who firmly believed in the success of this business, they understood that the Superjet still cannot feed the entire aviation industry. Thanks to the Indians and Malaysians with the orders for the Su-27 and its modifications, they did not let them die at all. So the problem is ripe. The question of how to solve it, having read the protocol, shocks the depth of the study of the problem, it is very easy to control the globe. Everything can be done according to the mind, but this will not happen. In reality, the teams of the design bureau in Moscow, as soon as the movements begin, will scatter. Grandfathers will retire, the average age will find a job, everyone needs qualified people, the youth will settle down. The Moscow agglomeration will digest 20 people. easily. Then the most interesting thing will begin, at each serial plant there is a branch of the Moscow Design Bureau, which actually produces the design department. But these are hands, brains in Moscow, this has developed for decades, a certain mentality has been formed. All developments will gradually stop, there will be a series of trifles until the intellectual groundwork ends. For the formation of new brains and psychology, that now you yourself decide in which direction to design, and do not wait for the initial data from Moscow, it will take 000 years per eye, and maybe more. In general, this is a delicate matter, sometimes it is enough for one person to leave and the whole direction gets into a stupor. The entire plan set out in the protocol will actually see the liquidation of the head design bureaus and the transfer of the entire scope of work to the branches, but the process will not stop there, then they will start to unite the factories, anyway there is an excess of them. In fact, the country does not need planes, they would need to be ordered, there is no ideology in the aviation industry either. All this will come back to haunt, maybe even tomorrow. Here's a pessimistic view.
  • Andrew_A
    Andrew_A 25 February 2021 17: 42
    +3
    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
    This is the cold core of the problem

    This is the cold core of the problem
    What is the result? Liquidation of KB?
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik 25 February 2021 17: 53
    -1
    Quote: Viktor Afanasev
    Unfortunately, many of them will refuse to go somewhere far away for family reasons.

    Well, in different ways ... I know examples when people from Moscow went to Siberia to make a career. From enterprise to enterprise. Not trade. Someone from St. Petersburg to other cities also left. I also know such examples ...
    Does anyone know the objective state of affairs in these KB? Maybe there really was mostly "ballast" left? Maybe it makes sense to leave several hundred fans out of several thousand people with high salaries and excellent working conditions?
    1. DWG1905
      DWG1905 25 February 2021 18: 29
      +1
      How much is a high salary? On what basis to pay more than locals? And what are the excellent working conditions? It is not realistic to move if the war is yes, but not in a peaceful life. Each person is tied by many social ties, family, parents, etc. Where to live? Civilians are not military even once, the psychology is different. Imagine if in reality 100 people come to the plant with children and households and junk, there will be a movie. Read the evacuation memories.
  • lukewarm
    lukewarm 25 February 2021 18: 12
    +1
    I remember very well who was responsible for what. You, I think, have understood the point: "optimization" equals reduction and collapse. And you are not voicing a new version. There was already about the "secret decree" and "Hero of Russia". We agreed to the point that the Crimea was returned by its merits.
    Quote: Malkavianin
    Yes, he may have been stealing, he even managed to mess things up, but he did his job.

    request And this is not enough ?! So calmly talk about it? And what did he do? Destroyed the rotten and sold the non-rotten?
    Quote: Malkavianin
    Apparently now it's the turn for aviation. And once he was appointed, the industry actually rotted away.

    They clearly expressed about the queue, as if we were talking to Serdyukov himself. Excuse me, but the industry itself is rotting? Nobody created such conditions for her? On the basis of what such statements, especially the same persons who do all this cheerfully report on modernization and import substitution? When your turn comes, will you take it as calmly?
    Quote: Malkavianin
    There is no trace of patriotism and joy for the motherland and its successes here.

    That's for sure. From your client and even more so. Effective manager stinks. What should work reliably and efficiently, primarily for the benefit of society, is adjusted by them to the criteria of profitability. So you build a profitable plant! Not! We will cut the army, medicine, education.
  • DWG1905
    DWG1905 25 February 2021 18: 51
    +3
    Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
    Why feed these parasites who do not create anything useful? Only papier-mâché layouts.
    Design bureaus should be with aircraft manufacturers and be fed by mass production.
    Where is Serdyukov wrong?

    And he is not right that there should be one aircraft in the series. KB should make dozens of projects, work out a bunch of options. And being at the plant, it degrades to the level of servicing of mass production, mainly the legalization of marriage. We drilled holes in the wrong place, you fix the CD for them, otherwise it is expensive to remodel a marriage. This was the whole point of the system head KB - branch of KB at a serial plant - factory KB. The head design bureau must continuously design new things. To stay in place, you need to run forward very quickly.
    1. Nestor Vlakhovski
      Nestor Vlakhovski 25 February 2021 21: 38
      -1
      so that there was one aircraft in the series, the design bureau must make dozens of projects, work out a bunch of options.
      so in this regard, nothing will change, only the design will be without interruption from reality
      And being at the plant, it degrades to the level of servicing of mass production, mainly the legalization of marriage.
      ??
      The bungler enterprise will live at what expense?
      The head design bureau must continuously design new things. To stay in place, you must run forward very quickly.
      The head design bureau, like the entire industry, must feed on the result.
      If the PLANT cannot create modern competitive products, it simply has to sit hungry. Until the management grows wiser / goes to the rest.
      Problems with marriage and obsolescence of products are solved very simply - by competitive state purchases and the absence of squandering the state budget with the help of handouts to losers of all stripes.
      1. Avior
        Avior 25 February 2021 23: 52
        +2
        he simply has to sit hungry. Until the management grows wiser / leaves in the rest.

        the conclusion is not obvious.
        The management is not hungry ...
        1. Nestor Vlakhovski
          Nestor Vlakhovski 26 February 2021 11: 06
          0
          The conclusion is widespread, I would even call it generally accepted.
          Everyone has a different threshold of "hunger", so for most owners the very fact of the absence of quarterly profits is unacceptable.
          1. Avior
            Avior 26 February 2021 12: 42
            0
            and who are the owners there?
            1. Nestor Vlakhovski
              Nestor Vlakhovski 26 February 2021 13: 09
              0
              and who are the owners there?
              State. But above I wrote how it should be, as it is in developed countries.
              I think you already know how the aircraft building industry is in Russia and what real prospects it has. The state does not intend to develop the high-tech sector of the economy.
  • Revival
    Revival 25 February 2021 19: 05
    -1
    Well, now is it really a breakthrough, finally?
  • Ajevgenij
    Ajevgenij 25 February 2021 21: 43
    -2
    I would not heap the transfer of design bureaus to regions and the stagnation of aircraft design schools in one heap. From an urban point of view, it is very good that they are being transferred to the regions.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 25 February 2021 21: 55
    +2
    Quote: Viktor Afanasev
    there are still managers aimed at development, albeit at the expense of others

    do you propose to create our pirate state, once you praise?
  • 75 Sergey
    75 Sergey 25 February 2021 22: 49
    +1
    It's time, it's high time !!!
  • Ugochaves
    Ugochaves 26 February 2021 07: 41
    0
    Something the protocol looks like a fake. It was not drawn up correctly, there is no secretary of the meeting, and Chemezov's signature raises doubts.