Military Review

The score of victorious battles of one of the Soviet air divisions over the Germans - "5: 1": from the history of the Second World War

49

For people interested in history air battles of the Great Patriotic War, I would like to know for sure about what was the real ratio of losses of the Soviet aviation and the Luftwaffe. The fact is that in this regard, a dogma was formed that the Soviet losses were allegedly ten times higher than the German losses. Various kinds of materials appeared with a claim to historical ones, in which it was stated that the losses were "incomparable", and it was not in favor of the air fleet THE USSR.


Not everyone agrees with this dogma. Moreover, disagreement in this case is not expressed in the form of unfounded statements that "German losses could not be ten times less." It is based on a whole series of historical facts that were recorded even during the Great Patriotic War itself. Among such facts are the narratives of Soviet pilots, staff officers, representatives of the technical level of aviation divisions. Among the interesting data are the narratives of the servicemen of the Guards Air Division, in which the Soviet aces Pokryshkin, Fadeev, and others served.

A video has appeared on the SkyArtist channel, which tells about this kind of narratives by the participants in air battles. Such assessments from the direct participants are a real chronicle of the Great Patriotic War, which sheds light on the real ratio of losses in battles between the pilots of the Soviet air force and the Nazis.

The score of the victorious battles of one of the Soviet air divisions against the Germans is "5: 1". Could everyone show such a result?

From the history of the Second World War:
49 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. certero
    certero 18 February 2021 10: 39
    +21
    The loss ratio is considered wrong. Not according to the stories of the participants in the battles, but according to our documents and the documents of the enemy. Then the picture is objective.
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 18 February 2021 10: 54
      -9
      Only the documents on the losses of the Luftwaffe by order of Goering were destroyed. So the picture is biased anyway. Kohl losses of the Germans are looking for the left numbers. Type of movement of aircraft hulls at repair bases
      1. Machito
        Machito 18 February 2021 11: 56
        +6
        Akhtung. Akhtung. Pokryshkin in de play. am
      2. Zug
        Zug 19 February 2021 16: 17
        -1
        They order documents in the states, it's quite normal
        1. Cowbra
          Cowbra 19 February 2021 16: 46
          -1
          I know I know. With holes! For example, figs there you will find losses in Tatsinskaya. When tanks crushed several hundred aircraft. Because they were compiled on the basis of LEFT documents and miraculously preserved stubs
      3. IL-18
        IL-18 22 February 2021 00: 58
        -1
        Quote: Cowbra
        Only documents on the losses of the Luftwaffe by order of Goering - destroyed

        Documents! For my service as a clerk, I myself printed the documents, and sometimes even composed ... And, let's say, at the level of the regiment, a slightly embellished summary is drawn up, the division is also very small, the corps, well, just a drop, the army is so, for beauty. The front did not embellish anything, only slightly underreported. Well, why does the Supreme Commander spoil the mood? We will report only what He likes.
        And they declassified the archives. And there ... You just wonder: how are the losses of the Germans on the Eastern Front with satellites approximately equal to ours? We put them on paper both in the tail and in the mane. And as a result - parity.
        And this applies to all participating countries.
    2. fighter angel
      fighter angel 19 February 2021 11: 36
      +3
      Yes, but provided that the documents reflect true data, and are not fabricated, not falsified according to the principle: "we will write down two of our shot down now, we will hold ten in our minds, and then we will arrange them in parts as written off due to wear and tear", not compiled for the sake of "beautiful figures in reports ". The fact that the Hans had "double-entry bookkeeping" for losses and victories has long been known, and there are facts confirming this. Will we see the true numbers of their losses? I don't think so.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 19 February 2021 13: 39
      +4
      Quote: certero
      Not according to the stories of the participants in the battles, but according to our documents and the documents of the enemy

      It is unlikely....
      Documents are also different. This requires an integrated approach. It is necessary to analyze both the documents and testimonies of participants and eyewitnesses and, most importantly, the final result.
      After all, no way has been invented to defeat the enemy in a war other than inflicting losses on him. Destroy, incapacitate, capture (capture).
      If the enemy is defeated, then he is forced to retreat, to surrender important territories, if we are defeated, then our troops have to do this.
      Yes, if we have more troops and weapons, then we can suffer more significant losses than the enemy. But not at times and not constantly throughout the war.
      Otherwise, the front after Stalingrad would not have moved to the West.
      If you look at other "studies" that seem to be based on documents, you immediately see their complete inconsistency ..
      So in the Battle of Kursk, the Germans lost "according to documents" a ridiculous number of tanks and aircraft, and as a result did not turn the tide of the war at all, but lost Kharkov, Oryol and rolled back to the Dnieper.
      1. Zug
        Zug 19 February 2021 16: 32
        0
        Yes, not a ridiculous number of planes they lost, according to their own reports. Where did you get it? Look at the Gorbach-specialist in Kursk by vozduuu.Tam on the faces, by day and hour, all the losses are painted. Documents are attached. They pressed the Germans in the air. Not immediately, of course, not from the first day, but then they gave them some good dust.
    4. Zug
      Zug 19 February 2021 16: 16
      -1
      If Sky Clown said, ours won, then it is (sarcasm) This comrade is just for fun to listen to. Let him provide summaries on the days of the air regiment or air division with losses for the current days and those with whom they fought. And the rest is the chatter of a pregnant woman
    5. Vechernick
      Vechernick 21 February 2021 18: 55
      0
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixfjswfwYhw - изучайте
    6. Vechernick
      Vechernick 21 February 2021 18: 56
      0
      and more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPC3bVd2nPU
  2. New Year day
    New Year day 18 February 2021 10: 42
    +19
    The winners write history. It has always been that way.
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 18 February 2021 10: 59
      -1
      Scammers write it in this case. The numbers shot down during WWII - the Japanese were cut three times from the Japanese official, they say, it can't be! And those announced at Khalkhin-gol were left unchanged. So it comes out))) They don't lie, they say)))
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 18 February 2021 11: 46
      +12
      Quote: Silvestr
      The winners write history. It has always been that way.

      And now the defeated are trying to rewrite it, and even some of the winners.
    3. Andros
      Andros 19 February 2021 16: 32
      -1
      And who is the winner now?
  3. Ros 56
    Ros 56 18 February 2021 10: 43
    0
    Of course this pleases, but where to write off the thousands of aircraft destroyed in the first days of the war?
    1. New Year day
      New Year day 18 February 2021 13: 10
      +20
      Quote: Ros 56
      and where to write off the thousands of aircraft destroyed in the first days of the war?

      Good question! +
      But not needed laughing
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 18 February 2021 13: 29
        +1
        Therefore, they minus. And what to hide from the truth, especially after so many years? fellow
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 18 February 2021 13: 47
          +26
          Quote: Ros 56
          Therefore, we minus

          How without it!
          Quote: Ros 56
          And what to hide from the truth

          Truth is an expensive pleasure and only the brave is able to admit it. There is also political expediency, and with it to the truth, like to Kiev on all fours
        2. Fat
          Fat 21 February 2021 11: 37
          0
          And because hundreds are not thousands, comrade accountant.
      2. Andros
        Andros 19 February 2021 16: 33
        +2
        Not politically correct?
    2. boris epstein
      boris epstein 18 February 2021 18: 18
      +3
      They were destroyed by bombers and attack aircraft or abandoned from bombed airstrips, but not in combat. And this is not a lot, not a little, 1800 machines. And the conversation, as far as I understand, is about shot down in air battles. The destroyed enemy aircraft did not count for the Soviet pilots during the attack on the airfield. But the Germans did. Already incorrect. Soviet pilots did not count aircraft that were shot down in a free hunt and fell on enemy territory or at sea. And the Germans were counted.
      But continuing your comment: where to write off those shot down by anti-aircraft artillery on both sides? After all, the Germans had excellent numerous anti-aircraft artillery. And read Pokryshkin's. From the autumn of 1944 until the Victory, most of the losses of Soviet aviation were inflicted by anti-aircraft artillery. Where to write off those destroyed at airfields (the village of Tatsinskaya, where the Soviet tank corps crushed German aircraft with tracks). Exactly the same can be attributed to the Germans, when their tankers in 1941 destroyed Soviet aircraft at airfields.
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 February 2021 07: 51
      +2
      Quote: Ros 56
      Of course this pleases, but where to write off the thousands of aircraft destroyed in the first days of the war?

      They were not destroyed. They disappeared. wassat The question is that the Luftwaffe never claimed the thousands of aircraft that we lost in the border battle. They write down much more modest numbers for themselves, EMNIP are several times smaller. As a result, it turns out that according to our data, they were lost, but according to the German data, they were not destroyed. So understand how you want ...
      However, I'm not a specialist in the air war.
    4. Vechernick
      Vechernick 21 February 2021 18: 57
      0
      for reflection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixfjswfwYhw
    5. IL-18
      IL-18 22 February 2021 01: 09
      0
      Quote: Ros 56
      Of course this pleases, but where to write off the thousands of aircraft destroyed in the first days of the war?

      Well, so 1200 adversaries at the airfields in the first 14 minutes 15 seconds and destroyed.
      Or admit that the German corporal struck a match and set fire to the planes dragged out of the captured airfield after a few days of fighting? And under a tribunal? The fate of General Pavlov and others like him eloquently shows how everything will turn out. And then the suddenness, as opposed to.
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 22 February 2021 08: 25
        0
        Let's just say that General Pavlov was shot for the cause, for his cowardice and complacency. For some reason, the Black Sea Fleet and the south-west of the country met the Germans as it should be, the hominy felt all the delights in their own skin on the first day of the war.
  4. Avior
    Avior 18 February 2021 10: 50
    +16
    There is a simple principle in the work of military historians - their losses are counted according to their own credentials, the enemy's losses - according to the enemy's credentials.
    Of course, it does not give a complete guarantee of accuracy, but at least it gives the data as close to real as possible.
    What can not be said about the calculation of enemy losses according to your own data.
    hi
    1. Destiny
      Destiny 18 February 2021 10: 56
      +18
      I agree, the most (as far as possible) the best option.
      What can not be said about the calculation of enemy losses according to your own data.

      And counting their victories (especially among the Germans) is also, to put it mildly, controversial in terms of objectivity ...
  5. yehat2
    yehat2 18 February 2021 10: 50
    +10
    Quote: Ros 56
    Of course this pleases, but where to write off the thousands of aircraft destroyed in the first days of the war?

    planes are just things. They are of little interest to anyone. Much more important is the fate of pilots and aerodrome personnel. Before the war, hundreds of I-16s were written off. And none of this makes a tragedy.
    Therefore, it is better to abandon purely provocative questions about thousands and ask questions to the point. For example, in the 40-minute-3 unit, 3 pilots are able to fly them and have never taken off on them into battle. All 40 were destroyed after the raids and the capture of the airfield. Are you going to count them too?
    1. Andros
      Andros 19 February 2021 16: 37
      0
      Why not. The enemy is not to blame for the poorly trained pilots. And losses are losses. At least they need to be replenished.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 19 February 2021 16: 40
        +2
        equipment losses are not equal to the loss of aircraft with pilots
        after all, in the end, they constantly compare, meaning vehicles equipped with crews,
        and especially stupid ones even assume that all the cars were lost in battle and there were no unsuccessful landings, malfunctions, navigator errors and other reasons.
  6. certero
    certero 18 February 2021 11: 03
    +12
    Quote: Cowbra
    Only the documents on the losses of the Luftwaffe by order of Goering were destroyed. That

    Well, of course. All the war logs were destroyed, all the data that flocked to the headquarters was also destroyed ... excuse the stupidity, don't write this.
    Dofiga German documents, including ours.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 18 February 2021 11: 10
      0
      Well, funny zhezh- "in the stories." That it is "in-stories, memories", it is enough to listen to the stories of hunters and fishermen. As for one division ... Well, this - we are the only d'Artagnan, and all the rest - ... well, so ... wink
      And the losses have long been calculated and everyone knows that they are far from in our favor. yes
  7. Federal1
    Federal1 18 February 2021 11: 14
    +2
    Article Fake
  8. Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 18 February 2021 12: 06
    +11
    Starting with a completely reasonable and well-founded criticism of Timin's 10k1, the channel's author predictably began preaching the other extreme - 5k1. Which means that viewers are again presented with a false dilemma. I wouldn't be surprised if both authors' channels receive funding from the same source.
    It seems that in the near future no one will analyze the combat work of aviation, instead of perceiving it as a sporting event. However, given the ability to analyze in people writing on "military-historical" topics on parallel Internet portals, it is for the better
    1. Zug
      Zug 19 February 2021 16: 26
      0
      In the Baltic in 44, according to our own documents, during the fight against the "magic" or whatever its German Order (Raumbots, minesweepers, etc.) for 3 months, without any serious results, 52 IL-2 attack aircraft fell. The same documents. Without practically losses on the German side. All from the fire of the anti-aircraft artillery of this very Magic Order. And this is 1944. And they mined the Baltic as they wanted and when they wanted.
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. Constanty
    Constanty 18 February 2021 13: 16
    +5
    The results are admirable, but it should be remembered that the 9th Guards. iad was not a typical Air Force combat unit.
    It was rather an elite team of experienced and battle-hardened aces (Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, Fadeev, Trud, Babak, Glinka ...), with better aircraft than other regiments and divisions.
  11. Vladimir Mashkov
    Vladimir Mashkov 18 February 2021 13: 29
    -8
    BATTLE The losses of the Red Army Air Force in the Great Patriotic War were comparable to those of Germany, and - no matter how surprising it may seem to the "connoisseurs" of "real history" and amateurs-admirers of German experts - there were slightly less German losses in terms of both aircraft and pilots. I will not describe in detail, I wrote about this in the article "Aces of the Third Reich." The phenomenon of "huge personal accounts", published here on VO. Whoever wants to read it.

    The score of victorious air battles against the Germans - "5: 1" - could and was shown, of course, not all and not always. And the performance of one of the best air divisions (possibly the best) for individual periods and battles is not an indicator. Moreover, the 9th Guards (216) air division fought a lot, actively with active opposition and the presence of an enemy. Others were less fortunate: they performed routine tasks to protect troops, attack aircraft, bombers and waited for the arrival of the enemy with the task of only driving him away from the guarded. A small number of groups and regiments of "free hunters" appeared in the Red Army Air Force only at the end of the war, and throughout its war, Soviet "hunters" were episodic, although the Germans acted so constantly ..

    As for the questions, what kind of aircraft: La-5FN, Airacobra, Spitfire, are better and more effective - rather stupid and provocative. Why? It all depends on the application and the tasks to be solved! Definitely you cannot answer them. Although, of course, a comfortable cockpit with a side door, a nose wheel (inexperienced pilots and in the mud many aircraft with a tail wheel were nosing), a powerful 37-mm cannon and a rear engine protection for the pilot speak in favor of the Airacobra. Although the engine at the rear, with the consumption of ammunition and fuel, led to the rear centering and the danger of stalling into a spin, and the side door - to the danger of damage to the pilot when jumping out of the cockpit.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 19 February 2021 17: 23
      0
      Most of our aces, the most effective ones, fought on Cobras due to the fact that the control of this fighter with powerful weapons was difficult - the centering of the aircraft did not allow piloting errors, so pilots who flew well on I-16s with a similar centering were put on Cobras. Those. almost all of our aces on Cobras had pre-war experience. The pilot, who shot down 9 planes in one battle on the Kursk Bulge, Gorovets, flew a La-5 and died while leaving the damaged plane, hitting the stabilizer. Such cases made the pilots all the more wary of a different layout of the lantern, considering the Aircobra to be very dangerous when jumping out of the plane because of the side doors, this phobia was in young, inexperienced pilots. And Pokryshkin, with its dimensions, really liked these doors. The Cobra's problem was also in the original profile of the lower contour, very rounded, like a paperweight, such a profile contributed to the nosing of the aircraft when landing on the belly. Therefore, pilots with great experience and without any phobias flew on Cobras, and this plane suited them. Some even removed the wing machine guns in order to reduce weight and further increase maneuverability. And experienced pilots had to shoot down more than recruits. And the fact that the Americans and others did not favor this aircraft, they did not have a "training" I-16, and they did not need the extra maneuverability that distinguished air battles on our front. If our aces switched to Yaki or La, they would have shot down no less, but they got a capricious aircraft in piloting, but excellent in battle.
      The R-39 Airacobra was a very expensive aircraft to board inexperienced pilots. For the ferry from Alaska it was, but for the fight only those who flew the I-16.
      1. victor50
        victor50 19 February 2021 21: 41
        +3
        Quote: Konnick
        pilots who flew well on the I-16, with a similar alignment, were put on Cobras.

        Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems that Pokryshkin flew a MiG before Cobra.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 20 February 2021 03: 12
          +1
          55 IAP, in which Pokryshkin served, rearmed MiGs before the war, and before that Pokryshkin flew the I-2 for 16 years.
        2. Zug
          Zug 20 February 2021 12: 02
          -2
          MiGG-then YAK then Cobra
          1. victor50
            victor50 20 February 2021 14: 11
            +1
            Quote: Zug
            Yak then cobra

            Yak is not mentioned everywhere.
            1. Zug
              Zug 20 February 2021 17: 43
              -1
              It is mentioned in his novel.
              1. Konnick
                Konnick 20 February 2021 19: 36
                +1
                Pokryshkin flew the U-2, R-5, I-16, MiG-3, R-39 Airacobra, MiG-15, MiG-17.
                1. Zug
                  Zug 20 February 2021 21: 04
                  -2
                  Roman his-Sky of War read-will help
  12. Vechernick
    Vechernick 21 February 2021 18: 54
    +1
    but it will not be shown on any TV channel ... for the ideology of the ALL political palette cannot do without at least "a few grams" of anti-Soviet
  13. certero
    certero 22 February 2021 11: 07
    -1
    Quote: Alekseev
    So in the Battle of Kursk, the Germans lost "according to documents" a ridiculous number of tanks and aircraft, and as a result did not change the course of the war at all,

    The Germans rolled back because ours launched an offensive on the other front.
    The ratio of tank losses on the Kursk Bulge is far from in our favor.