Retired Indian Air Force Marshal: Chinese J-20 fighters will not dominate the skies over Asia - Rafali will easily defeat them

An absentee press controversy arose between Indian and Pakistani military experts (retired military personnel). It all began with the publication in the Pakistani press of an interview with retired Pakistani Air Force general Shahzad Chaudhry, who was asked to comment on the issue of a possible confrontation in the air between Chinese-made J-20 aircraft and French-made Rafale aircraft. Recall that Rafale has recently been part of the Indian Air Force.

In response to this question, General Chaudhry said that the new generation J-20 fighters "are fundamentally game-changing in the region."
Shahzad Chaudhry:

These are aircraft with new technologies and new capabilities. They are inconspicuous and equipped with modern avionics. J-20s carry air-to-air missiles capable of striking enemy aircraft without entering the affected area themselves.

According to the retired Pakistani general, all this allows the J-20 fighters to outperform Aviationin service with the Indian Air Force.

It was noted that Indian Air Force Rafale fighters "would be better off avoiding meeting with Chinese J-20s."

The retired Indian Air Marshal, Anil Chopra, strongly disagrees with such interpretations. According to a retired marshal, who entered into an absentee dispute with a retired Pakistani general, "many believe that the J-20 is superior to the French Rafale only because the first is attributed to the fifth generation, and the second to the 4,5 (4+) generation." ...

Anil Chopra:

While China is clearly downplaying the Rafale's capabilities, I have reason to doubt the capabilities of the J-20 fighters. They have imperfect engines and are designed in such a way that there is no need to talk about radar stealth. And in the infrared range, they "shine" as clear targets.

Retired Indian Marshal Anil Chopra claims that the French Rafale are superior to the Chinese J-20 in speed and maneuverability, as well as the effectiveness of countering electronic warfare systems.

Anil Chopra:

Chinese J-20 fighters will never dominate the skies over Asia, as the Rafali will easily defeat them.

The main thing in this correspondence dispute between two large retired military men of India and Pakistan is that both of them clearly cannot know all the characteristics of the aircraft that they criticize.

Comments

[Semenov]

many believe that the J-20 is superior to the French "Rafale" only because the first belongs to the fifth generation, and the second to the 4,5 generation (4+)

Here it is, the Asian "Secret of Success" - you just need to carry the plane to the next generation

[TermNachTer]

To grope with your tongue, especially when you are no longer responsible for anything, is an exciting activity. But what are the claims of the Pak and the Indian based on? Has anyone simulated the battles between these machines? It is high time, it is possible that in the near future they may collide in a real situation.

[SSR]

Quote: TermNachTER

To grope with your tongue, especially when you are no longer responsible for anything, is an exciting activity.

On VO a similar situation)))
Imha.
French and Chinese, noble warriors with a famous history and school of air battles.
The Chinese have advanced a lot in CEA, the French are stronger in terms of production culture and many other technologies, but they are both air fighters, but I would not choose any of them, it all depends on where and how they will be used, single-engine rafal will not fly from far away and from the duty area, and if the base is nearby, then you can cover it on the ground.
As our specialist said, it is not enough to create a fighter, it still needs to be taught to fight.

[Mykhalych]

Quote: SSR

French and Chinese, noble warriors with a famous history and school of air battles.

Each sandpiper praises its swamp and no more.

[Timx]

single engine rafal won't come from far away

It seems that the Rafale has always been a twin-engine fighter, unlike the Mirage family, which he replaced on the assembly lines of the Dassault company and as part of the French Air Force, as well as from buyers of French technology. The presence of 2 engines was a mandatory requirement of the representatives of the French Navy, who were going to operate new machines from the deck of aircraft carriers, and France in the 80s and 90s (besides, was not a NATO member at that time) would not have been able to develop a high-thrust engine from scratch alone. .. And so, the resulting SNECMA M88 engine (its gas generator) also served as a prototype for the SAM-146 engine for our SSJ-100, which in many ways led to the current problems (low resource of a military unit and high life cycle cost) with this engine.

[SSR]

Quote: TimX

It seems that the Rafale has always been a twin-engine fighter

To India with one engine. Two engines, these are the first "instances".
Ps.
But the engine is very decent.

[Timx]

To India with one engine

) I would recommend that you better understand the issue before declaring so categorically ...

PS
The Rafale family has never had a single-engine version. Just as there is no different number of engines for one family of modern combat aircraft (such a modification will require the creation of an essentially new machine) ...

[SSR]

Quote: TimX

) I would recommend that you better understand the issue before declaring so categorically ...

PS
No and never was

Yes, I was wrong. You can dance a jig.

It was originally powered by two General Electric F404-GE-400 by-pass turbojet engines. After 460 test flights, which included landing on the deck of the aircraft carrier Clemenceau (touchdown and missed approach), one engine (left) was replaced with a SNECMA M88-2, which was specially developed for Rafale.

I was confused to see this.

[Timx]

You can dance a jig.

Perhaps, I will refrain - not yet in that shape after isolation and holidays)))
PS
Thanks for answering In no way did I want to hurt you!

[tralflot1832]

The one who first flies over the Himalayas will lose!

[FIR FIR]

Quote: tralflot1832

The one who first flies over the Himalayas will lose!

The one who buys the planes will lose, and the one who produces them will win.

[Orange bigg]

Retired Indian Air Force Marshal: Chinese J-20 fighters will not dominate the skies over Asia - Rafali will easily defeat them

I bet China will defeat India with a couple of dozen Raphals, and such statements from a retired marshal are more like propaganda.

[lucul]

I bet China will defeat India with a couple of dozen Raphals, and such statements from a retired marshal are more like propaganda.

No, no, no - this is the level - "my folder will beat your folder")))

[Orange bigg]

Threatening with a couple of dozen Raphales fighters of the 5th generation J-20, of which there are much more, is at least strange. Some kind of kindergarten.

[lucul]

Some kind of kindergarten.

Here I am about the same)))
And this is the elite of the troops)))

[tralflot1832]

Will he beat my folder? Yes, my folder 3 brothers has one boxer and two karate fighters with black belts!

[Zaurbek]

The question is different: how many J20 and J11 will China have and how many Rafals and Su30mki will India have ....

[Rusticolus]

The topic of the superiority of this or that aircraft is clearly not fully disclosed. Give both generals a traditional rooster hat, a baton in hand, and set a meeting point at the border, for the final clarification of all the advantages of these aircraft.

[Petr Vladimirovich]

What is not an obituary is advertising (c)

[Prisoner]

If the general does not need a brain, then the marshal of course did not give up. “The colonel is being operated on the brain, the surgeon removed the skull and took out the brain. Here the operative on duty runs in.
- Comrade Colonel! You have been awarded the rank of Major General!
He jumps up, pushes on the skull, puts on his cap and runs to the exit. The surgeon in pursuit:
- Brains forgot!
- Why the hell do I need them now! "(C)

[Lord of the Sith]

The Rafale is at least battle-tested, but the Chinese? No.

So personally, I would not dare to mess with Rafal, at least until the Chinese J-20 are baptized by fire.

[Orange bigg]

In which battles has Rafal been tested?

[Lord of the Sith]

Everything is on the Internet, the main thing is not to be lazy and search))

[Orange bigg]

Well, find it. I don't remember Rafali taking part in air battles.

[Lord of the Sith]

All by yourself. Or 500 r. on my card, I will provide information.
Otherwise, I won't lift a finger. We have capitalism and market relations here))

[Orange bigg]

Quote: Lord of the Sith

All by yourself. Or 500 r. on my card, I will provide information.
Otherwise, I won't lift a finger. We have capitalism and market relations here))

Strange excuse.

[Lord of the Sith]

Excuse? Heheh))

I do not want to waste such a precious resource as time on proving the obvious things.

Either pay for the work, or look for information yourself, it's simple.

[A_Lex]

I do not want to waste such a precious resource as time on proving the obvious things.

The person says that he is sorry to waste time on an elementary search for information in Google, while he is not sorry to waste time explaining why he is not looking for information. If in 20 minutes in Google it is impossible to find facts confirming the assumptions, then there are no such facts, and unreasonable assumptions are of no value, as well as attempts to justify themselves.

[Bow]

You are not considering the psychological aspects.
For example, such as the inertia of human thinking (when you see that you have chosen the wrong path, but you can’t stop) and illogical laziness (when you know that if you don’t lift your finger today, you’ll have to bend your back tomorrow, but you still don’t move because today is today, and tomorrow is tomorrow)

[A_Lex]

You are not considering the psychological aspects.

Yes, I do not take into account the psychological aspects, because I am not interested in motivation, because you still don’t know the thoughts for sure. I am only interested in whether the statement is true or not.

[Bow]

To correctly process real data (not a spherical horse in a vacuum, from a school physics textbook, but, for example, the results of a real experiment / measurement), it is necessary to correctly select and apply a certain set of filters, thereby removing noise that distorts the truth.
In the context of human thinking, people look at truth through the prism of their own perception. If we make corrections for the curvature of the image of truth in this prism, then it is possible, according to a person's description of how he sees truth, to establish how it looks in reality.
The simplest example. If your friend's tastes in cinema seem disgusting to you, then you most likely will not go to a film that your friend will go out of their way to praise.

[A_Lex]

The simplest example. If your friend's tastes in cinema seem disgusting to you, then you most likely will not go to a film that your friend will go out of their way to praise.

Truth has nothing to do with subjective judgment.

[Bow]

In my example, the "prism" of one is recalculated relative to the "prism" of the other. The very possibility of such calculations is important here.
From subjective perception, the truth, often, is quite deduced for itself, with the proper skill, tools and desire. All natural sciences are built on this.

[A_Lex]

From subjective perception, the truth is often quite deduced for itself

Truth is that which is depersonalized and devoid of subjective perception. Everything else is not true, but a private point of view.

[Bow]

Where do I state the opposite? My "recount" is your "depersonalization".

[A_Lex]

My "recount" is your "depersonalization".

Truth does not depend on personal perception, therefore, to determine it, a complete and clear understanding is required, after which it becomes possible to explain the real state of affairs to those who are in error.

[Bow]

The perceived picture depends on the truth and on the characteristics of the prism through which its image is refracted for the observer. Knowing these characteristics, one can recalculate the perception of the observer into real truth.

We repeat ourselves for some reason

[A_Lex]

We repeat ourselves for some reason

We are not repeating ourselves. You are not saying at all what I am saying.

[Bow]

Do you want me to say the same as you do?

[A_Lex]

Do you want me to say the same as you do?

I did not say that. I said that we are saying different things. You say one thing, I say another. If you do not understand that truth is depersonalized and does not depend on subjective personal perception, there is no point in talking further.

[Bow]

Depersonalization is possible by the appropriate "recalculation" of personal vision data.
You with a clever look repeat "common place" and absolutely do not understand what they are saying to you.

[A_Lex]

Depersonalization is possible by the appropriate "recalculation" of personal vision data.

Nonsense.

You look smart

The transition to personalities is a typical technique of the sophist. There is no point in continuing the conversation further.

[Bow]

To me your personality is like a book about Vedic cuisine to an alligator.
I just state that instead of arguments, you are cleverly talking about a rather hackneyed "commonplace".
You could just as well just say something like, "be-be-be." There would be the same level of controversy.

[Lord of the Sith]

Instead of a thousand words for idlers who require stupid proof)))

Who imagined themselves to be airships on the wings of Olweiss))

[Bow]

If the very absence of evidence of anything was considered proof of the opposite, science could be safely buried.

[A_Lex]

If the very absence of evidence of anything was considered proof of the opposite, science could be safely buried.

This is not about proving a hypothesis, which can often be obtained far from immediately, as, for example, was the case with atomism, a hypothesis about which was expressed in ancient Greece.
In this case, you need the usual factual confirmation. If instead of citing the fact that now it is extremely fast and easy to implement with the help of Google, an absurd persistence follows, then most likely such a fact is absent.

[Bow]

Or psychology intervened, like the one I described above).
I am not suggesting that your opponent is right. I am only pointing out the lack of proof of your conclusions.

[A_Lex]

I am only pointing out the lack of proof of your conclusions.

And I'm not interested in 100% proof regarding the opinion of another person. The conclusion that most likely his statement is false is enough for me.

[Bow]

What is enough for you and what is not - I, of course, have no right to define.
I am only stating the lack of proof of your statement.

[A_Lex]

I am only stating the lack of proof of your statement.

You can only state that my statement is not 100% proven. But it normal. In our world, very little is 100% proven.

[Bow]

The "not 100% proven" statement is already the domain of the humanities). And I must admit, not a walker there)).
In this terminology, I see only two "not 100% proven" statements (yours and your opponent's) and absolutely do not understand the meaning of their mutual existence.

[A_Lex]

"Proven not 100%" statement is already the domain of the humanities

Of course, this applies not only to the humanities, but also to the exact sciences.

[Bow]

Give an example of a theorem that is not 100% proven.

[A_Lex]

Give an example of a theorem that is not 100% proven.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Or do you not know that as part of the work on the same AI, the developers themselves do not fully understand how it works? Another example is medicine, where in most cases it is not completely clear how certain drugs work, which are precisely selected compounds of chemical elements.

[Bow]

AI is not any kind of intelligence, in the medical sense. Every neural network has strict mathematics under the hood. Don't be fooled about this. Here you will not find "proven not 100%".
As for medicine, when did it become an exact science?

[A_Lex]

AI is not any kind of intelligence, in the medical sense.

A typical sophist's answer is not in the sense of the original statement.

Don't be fooled about this.

Scientists and programmers have stopped understanding how artificial intelligence makes decisions. This problem was announced by several experts at the main AI conference - Neural Information Processing Systems - held in Long Beach (California), writes Quartz.
Experts interviewed at Quartz say they need to act before the system gets too complex. “We don't want to take AI decisions for granted without understanding their logic,” says Jason Yosinski of Uber. "For society to accept machine learning models, we need to know how AI makes decisions."
https://hightech.fm/2017/12/08/i-is-now-so-complex

Then I stop communicating with the demagogue. You can continue to play with sophistry in public while there is still such an opportunity.

[Bow]

You are ignorant. You absolutely don't understand what you have quoted.
Another journalist, in pursuit of a beautiful headline, gave the speaker's assumption that neural networks may become too complex in the future, as: "scientists have ceased to understand."

Why are you littering the information space with your ridiculous interpretations of what you have no idea about? In my picture of the world, this is akin to a crime.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Lord of the Sith

... Or 500 r. on my card, I will provide information.

Isn't it Hoo-Hoo-Hoo-Ho?

[Lord of the Sith]

He-he rather

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Lord of the Sith

He-he rather

Here is Bes ... Scream ...

[Hwostatij]

In air battles, no, they were used in Afghanistan and Libya, they worked on the ground. We can say that we have gone not far from the polygon conditions. Karoch, I bet on the Chinese in case of kneading)

[Grits]

Quote: OrangeBigg

In which battles has Rafal been tested?

Bombed the defenseless forces of Gaddafi and pointed the thugs where he ran

[yehat2]

firstly, there are few rafals and India not only does not produce them, but cannot even serve properly
secondly, Rafali is now at the peak of modernization and will not get better, and the Chinese j20 has a huge performance improvement program ahead.
Thirdly, there is simply no comparison of characteristics.
sad from showing off Indians - they do not understand the real balance of power
do not understand that their litigation has already led the country to a very difficult situation, when China has become head and shoulders above the military and the efficiency of the military-industrial complex.

[DDT]

Quote: yehat2

firstly, there are few rafals and India not only does not produce them, but cannot even serve properly
secondly, Rafali is now at the peak of modernization and will not get better, and the Chinese j20 has a huge performance improvement program ahead.
Thirdly, there is simply no comparison of characteristics.
sad from showing off Indians - they do not understand the real balance of power
do not understand that their litigation has already led the country to a very difficult situation, when China has become head and shoulders above the military and the efficiency of the military-industrial complex.

You say that as if India at least once had superiority over the PRC ?! Do not forget, the USSR supplied our weapons to India, and in the same China, the Chenas produced it under license or without it. Moreover, the motivation of the Chinese and the Indians cannot be compared. India has always been an outsider and a victim. And the fact that they took Rafal instead of the non-existent MiG-35 is a fat minus for Rosoboronexport, Poghosyan, MiG, the Russian government, etc. But even if they took the MiGs, this IMHO would not change anything. As the Indians were beaten, so they will be.

[yehat2]

India did not have superiority, but at least it was a very serious enemy, comparable both in mobilization and in technology. Now it is not so - China is stronger both technically and mobilizingly, economically and psychologically. And this, if you have studied history, always results in some kind of serious change, beneficial to the strongest side.

[DDT]

Quote: yehat2

India did not have superiority, but at least it was a very serious enemy, comparable both in mobilization and in technology. Now it is not so - China is stronger both technically and mobilizingly, economically and psychologically. And this, if you have studied history, always results in some kind of serious change, beneficial to the strongest side.

Well, she can still do a lot of things. All the same, it has nuclear weapons. Huge mobilization potential, so if the PRC attacks the Indian SS, it will only be paired with Pakistan. One on one, do not risk it. But what’s interesting to me is that now everyone is starting to produce their own weapons ... The monopolies of the USA, Russia, the EU are gradually decreasing ... where will the bloated military-industrial complex go? Although there is still Asia, Africa and Latin America, although there are also movements in the direction of their military-industrial complex?

[Hwostatij]

What kind of weapon are you talking about? Fighters, air defense, tanks? You can, of course, buy a drone on Ali, but its effectiveness in a conflict slightly different from the showdown of gangs in the third world is not too impressive. And about the bloated military-industrial complex - take an interest in the dynamics of the arms market in the world.

[yehat2]

Quote: DDT

bloated military-industrial complex

apparently you did not live in the cold war. Now the United States cannot build 1 new aircraft carrier, and earlier they were stamped like pies. Aviation on both sides was 3 times more.

[DDT]

Even as he lived :))) In full swing. But then, in view of this very cold war, the military-industrial complex did not seem inflated anywhere
And now, I see attempts to unleash a new Cold War, but everyone is resisting ...

[yehat2]

Quote: DDT

The military-industrial complex did not seem bloated

this is because the military-industrial complex was scattered throughout the territory of the Warsaw Pact - some of the ships were made in Poland, artillery in Czechoslovakia, a lot of things in Germany, boots in Hungary
And military units were stationed in Europe, Cuba, the mountains of Kazakhstan, Vietnam and other remote points
And it turned out that on average there were not many military men around.
For example, it was only 15 years later that I found out that there are already 3 anti-aircraft units in my city. They stood in the forest and did not shine.

[Illanatol]

where will the bloated military-industrial complex go?

Our military-industrial complex is definitely not inflated. It is necessary to increase it, as well as the release of military equipment for our own Armed Forces. At present, the pace of rearmament is clearly insufficient.

[Ryaruav]

every sandpiper praises his swamp everywhere and at all times, of course, except for any lousy dissenters

[Thrifty]

So, let the Indians follow the path of the Chinese, and begin to declare that they are being supplied with Rafale of a heat of 4,98, and on missiles and a radar, in general, a heat of 5,20!

[Keyser soze]

Give them Luke Skywalker's interstellar fighter, but the pilots will still be Indian and Chinese. And with Rafale, bolts and nuts will fall off on takeoff ...

[Alexey Stepanov]

Yeralash №106 "Battle"

[svp67]

The most important thing is that no matter what India, Pakistan or China dares to check, since a military clash of three powers with nuclear weapons and such a mass of population can lead to unpredictable consequences

[Ros 56]

Listen to these figures, as much laughter makes out. The Hindus will take off with their dances, the Chinese will shove them into okroshka.

[Alex Justice]

India easily defeated Pakistan in the last war.

[Ros 56]

You probably confused the Chinese with the Pakistanis.

[Alex Justice]

I wanted to say that India knows how to fight and whose question will take.

[Ros 56]

And where, when and with whom she fought. Just don't touch the Pakistanis, they are the same people, only they once parted ways. True, the Chinese are also still those warriors, but over the past couple of decades, their army has grown greatly in terms of quality.

[Vitalian]

Retired Indian Air Force Marshal: Chinese J-20 fighters won't

Yes, they will smash India to smithereens for your stupid policy in the field of armaments .. Say thank you to Russia, which is harnessed. By diplomacy and special services ..
Not worth it, etc.

[Dmitry Makarov]

Two completely agree - India has entire arms sectors missing, I even doubt that the Indian army can be called modern - numerous Yes, unbalanced Yes.
I would also like to know about the "great victories of the Indian army"
And at least China has a core.
However, I hope this will not happen, but today they are tearing templates.

[Vadim_888]

Will the third Indo-Pakistani war, for example, suit?

[123456789]

Country China France
Brand Shenyang Aircraft Dassault
Name J-20 Rafale
Modification J-20 Rafale
Start of production (year) 2011 1985
Length (m) 20.30 15.30
Height (m) 4.45 5.34
Wingspan (m) 12.88 10.90
Empty weight (kg.) 17 000
Maximum takeoff weight (kg.) 36 300 21 500
Maximum flight range (km) 5 500
Maximum flight speed (km / h) - 1 900
Cruising speed (km / h) - 1 350
Service ceiling (m) 20 000
Power plant 2 x TRDDF 2 x TRDDF SNECMA M88-2
Engine power 180 92
Crew (people) 1 2
Armament -
12 250 kg of bombs and 4 8 SD or SD

Produced (units) 9 140

More details at: https://avia.pro/sravnenie/voennue-samoletu/result

[Timx]

Start of production (year) 2011 1985

More details at: https: //avia.pro / ...

You don't have to read further)))

[antiaircrafter]

The technology will be evaluated by the war.

[Poetry]

All these layouts are good only before the first clash. The Pakis are enemies of the Hindus, they cannot say anything good to them. See them pacing with brutal mugs on the Indo-Pakistani border.

[Revolver]

Quote: Poetiszaugla

Pakis are enemies of the Hindus

But once there was one people ... This is what Islamization leads to.

[Poetry]

Yeah. Pakistan is essentially North India.

[Timx]

But once there was one people ... This is what Islamization leads to.

Maybe not "Islamization", but the strategy of the Anglo-Saxons "divide and rule"?
And in our country (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine), when did “Islamization” happen? Maybe I, of course, do not know something? And what about Bulgaria, Macedonia and Greece? (well there, at least in theory, you can drag the Turks)

[Foxnova]

All 4 raphals?

[APASUS]

So it will be! However, the retired Indian Air Force Marshal said nothing that the success of air combat depends on a thousand components, the aircraft themselves are just a tool!

[Dmitry Makarov]

I certainly agree that the J-20 may not be an Akhtetsky fighter, but it’s not clear, but what about Rafal, some kind of Heaven's ace?