Military Review

The accomplices of Hitler and Mussolini and their actions on the territory of Yugoslavia

282

Ustasha leader Anten Pavelic "zigging" against the background of the Croatian flag


Article Croatia under the rule of the Ottoman Empire we ended with a message about the decision of the Entente powers to transfer the Croatian lands to the kings of Serbia. But on October 29, 1918 in Ljubljana, the creation of a state was proclaimed, which included Croatia, Slavonia (Slovenia), Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Krajina.


Ljubljana, October 29, 1918

It was not recognized by the "Great Powers". Instead, on December 1, 1918, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes appeared on the political map of the world.

Meanwhile, relations between Serbs and Croats by that time were by no means cloudless. The concept of "Greater Serbia" was gaining popularity among the Serbs, which was destined to unite all the Slavic peoples of the Balkan Peninsula. Ilya Garashanin in his "Inscriptions" (1844) called Croats "Serbs of the Catholic faith" and "a people without self-awareness." The Croats, on the other hand, considered Serbs, at best, orthodox schismatics, and at worst, Asians, who had no right to live on Croatian soil, and even the word “Serb” itself was derived from the Latin servus - “slave”. In particular, Ante Starcevic wrote about this in the book "The Name of the Serb". This is especially surprising if you remember that up to this time for centuries Serbs and Croats lived quite peacefully (this period is often called the "Millennium of Friendship") and even spoke the same language, which was called "Serbo-Croatian". The problems began when politicians with theories of the "racial superiority" of their people and the "inferiority" of their neighbors got into the relations between ordinary people.

As for the relations between Serbs and Croats, things then came to the point that on June 19, 1928, in the parliament of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, a member of the People's Radical Party Punis Racic opened fire on Croatian deputies, mortally wounding the leader of the Croatian Peasant Party, Stepan Radic.


Croatian banknote 200 kuna with a portrait of S. Radic

One of the consequences of this terrorist act was a political crisis that ended in a monarchical coup, when on January 8, 1928, King Alexander I dissolved parliament and eliminated all autonomies. The state was officially renamed and was now called the "Kingdom of Yugoslavia".

Croatian Revolutionary Organization (Ustasa)


After that, the leader of the Croatian extremists, Ante Pavelic, created the underground organization Domobran, whose members killed N. Risovic, editor of the newspaper Edinstvo, which supported the government. On the basis of "Domobran" then the "Croatian revolutionary organization - Ustasa" (Ustasa - "Risen") arose. Its leader ("Ustashki's leader") Pavelic soon fled to Bulgaria, where he established ties with the Macedonian revolutionary organization (it was the Macedonian militant Vlado Chernozemsky who killed the King of Yugoslavia Alexander I Karageorgievich on October 9, 1934 in Marseilles). Then Pavelic ended up in Italy, the authorities of which arrested him after the murder of the Yugoslav king. For 2 years, Pavelic was under investigation, which was never completed.

In 1939, the autonomy of Croatia was restored, moreover, about 40% of the lands of Bosnia and Herzegovina were "cut" to its territory: this not only did not satisfy the "appetites" of the nationalist leaders of Croatia, but even more "whetted" them.

Croatia during World War II


In Italy, Pavelic vegetated until 1941, when after the occupation of Yugoslavia by the troops of Germany, Italy and Bulgaria, a puppet Croatian state was created, which included Bosnia and Herzegovina. A fugitive nationalist became its ruler.

In fact, formally Croatia (like Montenegro) was then considered a kingdom. And unlike the same Montenegro, they managed to find a king for it: on May 18, 1941, the Duke of Spoletta Aimono de Torino received the crown (and with her the name Tomislav II). This monarch never visited his "kingdom". After the proclamation of the Italian Republic, he fled to Argentina, where he died in 1948.

On April 30, 1941, racial laws were passed in Croatia, according to which Croats were declared citizens of the "first class" and "Aryans", and people of other, "non-Aryan" nationalities were restricted in their rights.


Hitler and Pavelic in Berchtesgaden, July 1941

One of the leaders of the Ustasha, Mladen Lorkovich, stated in his speech on July 27, 1941:

It is the duty of the Croatian government to make Croatia belong only to Croats ... In short, we must destroy the Serbs in Croatia.

Another "fiery speaker" - Mile Budak, on June 22, 1941 said:

We will destroy one part of the Serbs, we will evict the other, the rest we will convert to the Catholic faith and turn into Croats. Thus, their traces will soon be lost, and what remains will only be a bad memory of them. We have three million bullets for Serbs, Roma and Jews.

However, the Ustashi often preferred to save bullets and used a special knife called "serbosek" ("serborez") for murders, which did not have a constant shape - a handle that was put on the hand and fixed on it was common for this group of knives.


Serbosek knife

It is believed that the sheaf knife, which has been produced by the German company Solingen since 1926, served as a prototype.

At present, it is believed that hundreds of thousands of Serbs were killed then (the exact numbers are still disputed, some researchers say about 800 thousand, the most cautious - about 197 thousand), about 30 Jews and up to 000 Roma. So Budak's plan remained "underfulfilled": the Soviet army and the People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia, commanded by JB Tito, prevented its implementation.

But Muslims in Nazi Croatia were not persecuted. The same Budak said:

We are a state of two religions - Catholicism and Islam.

The accomplices of Hitler and Mussolini and their actions on the territory of Yugoslavia
"Muslims and Catholics are brothers in the SS." Croatian propaganda poster

On the side of Germany against the USSR during World War II, two divisions and the reinforced 369th Infantry Regiment, also known as the "Croatian Legion", fought, the main part of which was killed or taken prisoner at Stalingrad.


Croatian soldiers on the Eastern Front

The pilots of the Croatian Aviation Legion, as well as the Croatian Naval Legion, of which Genichesk became the base, and included coast guard ships and minesweepers, were noted on the Soviet-German fronts.

Other parts of the Croatian army fought in the Balkans against partisan formations and Tito's army. Among them was, for example, the 13th SS Khanjar Volunteer Mountain Infantry Division (Khanjar is a cold weapon, short sword or dagger). It consisted of ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia (who, as a rule, held command positions), Croatian Catholics and Bosnian Muslims. This division was the most numerous in the SS troops: it consisted of 21 soldiers and officers, 065% of them were Muslims. The servicemen of this unit could be recognized by the fez on their heads.


"Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" Amin al-Husseini (after the outbreak of World War II he was expelled by the British authorities and moved first to Italy, and then to Germany) greets the volunteers of the Muslim SS "Khanjar" division

The formation of another similar unit, called "Kama", was not completed, its servicemen were transferred to the "Khanjar" division.

The "Khanjar" division existed until a full-fledged military clash with Soviet troops: in 1944 it was defeated in Hungary and fled to Austria, where it surrendered to the British.

The 7th SS Mountain Rifle Division "Prince Eugen" was mixed (here the Nazis "spoiled the reputation" of the good Austrian commander Eugene of Savoy) - formed in March 1942 from Croats, Serbs, Hungarians and Romanians who wanted to serve the III Reich. It was defeated in October 1944 by the Bulgarian troops that were part of the 3rd Ukrainian Front of the Soviet Army.

Bulgarians at a crossroads


In the occupation of Yugoslavia (as well as Greece), Bulgarian troops took part - five divisions, the maximum number of which was 33 people. During this time, the Bulgarians lost 635 people killed, but they themselves killed 697 partisans of Tito's army and Chetniks. The exact number of civilians killed has not yet been counted, but it was very high. It is known that only during the punitive operation in the Pusta River region, 4782 people were shot by Bulgarian soldiers.

However, it should still be said that Bulgaria was the only ally of Germany, on whose territory partisans operated. True, they mostly fought with the Bulgarians too - gendarmes, police, and sometimes, defending themselves, they fought with army units. Only three actions were carried out against the Germans themselves.

On August 22, 1941, Bulgarian partisans blew up seven fuel tanks in Varna, which were on their way to the Eastern Front. In the fall of 1942, a warehouse with sheepskin coats for the German army was burned down in Sofia. Finally, on August 24, 1944, as a result of an attack on the Kocherinovsky rest house, they killed 25 German soldiers.

In addition, two Bulgarian generals worked for Soviet intelligence, the head of military counterintelligence, the head of the surveillance service and even Metropolitan Stephen of Sofia (a graduate of the Kiev Theological Academy, the future exarch of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church), who in a sermon of June 22, 1941 dared to declare that the attack Germany to Russia is "the greatest fall from sin and a prelude to the Second Coming." It is said that a cache was set up in the ambo of St. Nicholas Church with his permission, and the gospel was used as a container for transmitting messages. To the Soviet intelligence officer Dmitry Fedichkin, the Metropolitan said on this occasion:

If God knows this is for a holy cause, he will forgive and bless!


Exarch Stefan. Monument in the native village of Shirokaya Lyka

Of the 223 Bulgarian political emigrants who fought in the Red Army, 151 were killed.

It is curious that after the news of Stalin's death, a document expressing condolences to the Soviet people was signed by over 5,5 million Bulgarian citizens. And now many Bulgarian veterans who are members of the officers 'Union of His Majesty's Military School Students (one of the two veterans' organizations, the second is the Union of War Veterans), are embarrassed to wear the Soviet medal “For Victory over Germany”, which was awarded to 120 thousand Bulgarian soldiers and officers, because it has a portrait of Stalin.


Medal "For the victory over Germany"

Serbian SS volunteers


In fairness, it should be said that in Serbia, the "puppet government of national salvation" Milan Nedic created the Serbian SS Volunteer Corps, commanded by the Serbian General Konstantin Musitsky, who rose to the rank of Oberführer.


Serbian SS Volunteer Corps soldiers

In September 1941, its number ranged from 300 to 400 people; in March 1945, about 10 thousand people served in it. They fought exclusively against the partisans of I. Tito, but sometimes they entered the battle with the presumptuous Croatian Ustash. But with the Chetniks-monarchists, they had "made peace." Finally, in April 1945, they joined one of the Chetnik units, with whom they retreated to Italy and Austria, where they surrendered to the Allied forces.

White Cossacks Helmut von Pannwitz


Unfortunately, we have to admit that the White Cossacks who fled from Russia after the defeat in the Civil War also "noted" on the territory of Yugoslavia.

The first Cossack division, commanded by German General Helmut von Pannwitz, became part of the 2nd tank Army of Colonel General Rendulich. British historian Basil Davidson incorrectly called Pannwitz "the ruthless commander of a gang of bloody marauders."

Davidson's opinion can be trusted: during World War II, he was an officer in the British Special Operations Directorate and personally liaised the British command with the partisans. In August 1943, for example, he was abandoned in Bosnia, in January 1945 - in northern Italy. "Art" von Pannwitz and his subordinates Davidson saw with his own eyes.

By the way, the Yugoslavs themselves (regardless of nationality) separated the Cossacks from the Russians at that time, calling them "Circassians".

The von Pannwitz division fought with partisans in Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Former White Cossacks burned more than 20 villages, in one of which (the Croatian village of Dyakovo) 120 girls and women were raped. Croats - allies of Nazi Germany, sent a complaint to Berlin. Von Pannwitz sided with his subordinates, declaring:

Croats will not hurt at all if the raped Croatians give birth to children. Cossacks are a wonderful racial type, many look like Scandinavians.

Both the new Yugoslavia and the USSR were eager to hang Pannwitz - it happened on January 16, 1947 in Moscow. At the same time, his subordinates were hanged: A. Shkuro, who was recruiting and preparing reserves for Pannwitz's formations, P. Krasnov (head of the Main Directorate of the Cossack Forces of Germany), T. Domanov (marching chieftain of the Nazi Cossack camp) and Sultan Klych-Girey ( the commander of the mountain units as part of the Krasnov Cossack corps).


And then the oddities began. In 1996, this executioner was rehabilitated by the decision of the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office of the Russian Federation, and only in 2001 this decision was canceled.

In 1998, a monument (marble slab) with a blasphemous name was erected at the Moscow Church of All Saints to these "heroes" - Pannwitz, Shkuro, Krasnov, Domanov and Sultan Klych-Girey:

To the soldiers of the Russian general military union, the Russian corps, the Cossack camp, the Cossacks of the 15th cavalry corps, who fell for their faith and fatherland.


In 2007, on the eve of Victory Day, this slab was broken by unknown persons:


But in 2014 it was restored with a new (equally blasphemous) inscription:

To the Cossacks who fell for Faith, Tsar and Fatherland.

And we are naively indignant at the glorification of Bandera and Shukhevych in today's Ukraine.

"The last battle of the Russian Civil War"


On December 26, 1944, a battle took place on the territory of Croatia at Pitomach, which received the loud name "The Last Battle of the Civil War": the 2nd Cossack Brigade of the Wehrmacht attacked the positions of the 233rd Soviet Division, which was part of the 3rd Ukrainian Front - and managed it from them knock out. The brutality of the parties was so great that the Soviet soldiers without any further ado shot the captured Cossacks (61 people), and the Cossacks - the captured Red Army men (122 people). This local clash had no global consequences: in April 1945, the remnants of the Cossack units of the Wehrmacht fled to Italy and Austria, where they surrendered to the British, who handed them over to the representatives of the USSR (the famous "extradition of the Cossacks to the Soviet regime in the city of Linz"): over the fate of these sadists and Hundreds of Russian liberals shed tears of executioners.

The fate of Pavelic and the Ustasha


The hatred of the Ustasha and the collaborators in Serbia was so great that when Soviet troops entered Yugoslavia in September 1944, the partisans following them in Belgrade alone shot and hanged at least 30 people. In total, about 000 thousand people were executed. Pavelic fled to Argentina, where in April 50 he was found and shot by two Serbs - Blagoe Jovovich and Milo Krivokapic (they managed to escape). Of the five bullets they fired, two hit the target, Pavelic survived, but suffered severely from wounds, from the consequences of which he died in Spain in 1952.

The collapse of Yugoslavia and the emergence of an independent Croatia


However, it soon became clear that interethnic contradictions in Yugoslavia did not disappear, but were only temporarily muted during the reign of JB Tito. Already at the end of the 1960s. in Croatia, there were unrest that included history as "Maskok" ("Masovni will cover" - a mass movement). In areas of Croatia where Serbs lived, inter-ethnic clashes were again noted. The Yugoslav authorities at that time adequately assessed the threat and crushed "Maspok" literally "on the vine." Among those arrested were even two future presidents of Croatia - Franjo Tudjman and Stepan Mesic (who later claimed that “the only Serbian land in Croatia is the one that they brought with them on their soles”).

After the death of J.B. Tito in 1980, a steady growth of nationalist sentiments was noted in Yugoslavia, and the separatists showed themselves more and more actively.

In 1990, even before the independence referendum, the use of the Cyrillic alphabet was banned in Croatia, and texts related to the history of Serbia, as well as the works of Serbian writers, were removed from textbooks. Serbian civil servants were ordered to sign loyalty lists (to the Croatian government). These actions provoked a retaliatory protest from the Serbs (their number in Croatia was then 12% of all citizens), who on July 25, 1990 created the "Serbian Assembly". The "Declaration on the sovereignty of Serbs in Croatia" was adopted, and a referendum on the sovereignty and autonomy of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina was scheduled for August.


To prevent Croatian police and armed groups from reaching the polling stations, the Serbs blocked roads with felled trees, which is why these events were called the "Log Revolution".


Srpske barikade

The first clashes between armed groups of Croats and Serbs began in April 1991. And then a war began on the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia, which lasted until 1995 and ended with the creation of an independent Croatian state. The bitterness of the parties then surprised the whole world. Already in 1991, the Serbs were completely expelled from 10 cities and 183 villages (partly from 87). All in all, as a result of the long-term war until 1995, about 30 thousand people of different nationalities were killed, and about half a million were forced to flee from the "enemy" territory (350 thousand of them were Serbs). These losses increased during the operation of the Croatian army "Tempest" to capture the Serbian Krajina and Western Bosnia in August 1995. Employees of the American private military company Military Professional Resources Inc. also took part in this operation.

August 5 is the date of entry of Croatian troops into the capital of Serbian Krajina, the city of Knin (it was fully occupied on August 7), in Croatia it is now celebrated as Victory Day and Armed Forces Day.


The flight of the Serbs from Knin

Diplomatic relations between Serbia (more precisely, the union state of Serbia and Montenegro) and Croatia were established on September 9, 1996.

Let's say a few words about Slovenia. She escaped the Ottoman conquest, but in the XIV century fell under the rule of the Habsburgs and was divided into three provinces - Kranjska, Gorishka and Shtaerska. In 1809-1813. was part of French Illyria. After World War I, the entire coastal part of Slovenia was part of Italy, the rest - in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. During World War II, Italy also conquered Ljubljana, and the rest of the land was occupied by Germany. After the end of this war, Slovenia returned the lost lands and became part of the socialist Yugoslavia. In 1987, various enterprises in Slovenia provided 20% of Yugoslavia's GDP and produced 25% of the goods exported.

In May 1989, protesters in Ljubljana adopted the "Declaration" on the establishment of a "sovereign state of the Slovenian people." In September, the decision of the Slovenian Assembly changed the constitution, which now confirmed the republic's right to secede from Yugoslavia. Since September, this republic has ceased to pay taxes to the federal budget, and on December 23, a referendum was held in which the majority of Slovenes voted for the creation of an independent state.

The situation aggravated on June 25, 1991, when Slovenia and Croatia simultaneously announced their secession from Yugoslavia. The President of Slovenia gave the order to take control of the borders and airspace of the republic and seize the barracks of the Yugoslav army. The Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, Ante Markovic, in response ordered the JNA troops to take control of Ljubljana.


Yugoslav troops in Slovenia, July 1991

Thus began the "Ten-Day War", which is also called the "War in Slovenia". During this time, 72 clashes of the opposing sides were noted, the war ended with the signing of the Brioni agreements, according to which the Yugoslav army ceased hostilities, and Slovenia and Croatia suspended the entry into force of the already adopted declarations of sovereignty for three months. And then the authorities in Belgrade were not up to Slovenia - other republics broke out.

Already in 1992, Slovenia became a member of the UN, in 1993 - a member of the Council of Europe, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, in March 2004 - joined NATO and became a member of the EU. In 2007, the euro was put into circulation in Slovenia, and it entered the Schengen area.

In the next article we will talk about Macedonia, which was traditionally claimed by Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs in addition to the Ottomans.
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 December 2020 05: 19
    +12
    Thank you, Valery.

    Probably, "Serbosek" hooked the most.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 22 December 2020 05: 39
      +11
      Sergei hi .
      "How much string does not twist ..." (C)

    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 05: 44
      +20
      How not to check it out. The official record is under a thousand Serbs a day by one executioner.
      These are the local competitions of white and fluffy Croats, Japanese samurai quietly indulge in the sidelines.
      By the way, the leaders of the Ustasha from among the representatives of the Catholic Church have been canonized by the Vatican.
      There are no further words, only emotions.
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 22 December 2020 05: 49
        +11
        Vladislav hi , You are damn right. Uncut bourgeoisie is an unforgivable omission.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 12: 05
          +7
          Quote: lexus
          Uncut bourgeoisie is an unforgivable omission

          In this case, the bourgeoisie with its bourgeoisie is only a breeding ground on which anything could grow - in this case, this bloody bacchanalia, described in the article, grew.
          The social base of all these ultranationalist movements is the same everywhere and everywhere - the petty bourgeoisie. People who have something and who are terribly afraid of losing something. They are characterized by a narrow political outlook, selfishness and the desire to pupate in their little world. Their needs are limited to satisfying a primitive set of animal instincts - to devour, sleep and cuddle for something soft and warm. They do not need science, industry, they are not interested in space flights as long as they are "well fed here." But at the same time they are tormented by the constant fear that "someone" will come and take it all away from them, because at the same time they realize their weakness and helplessness. Fear breeds both cruelty and violence. But the worst thing is that they need slaves, because they cannot build such a world purely on their own and cannot achieve a comfortable existence in it. Someone has to work for them, serve them, someone not like them, somehow different from them, in the "worse" side, naturally. And now we already have a "superior race", "a race of masters" and, accordingly, "Untermenshes" who are allowed to live on "their" land, live and work, and the fruits of labor of these "Untermenshes" will be mainly used by gentlemen.
          Yes, in general, radical nationalism is one of the forms of economic oppression, nothing more.
          1. Ryazan87
            Ryazan87 22 December 2020 13: 14
            -2
            People who have something and who are terribly afraid of losing something. They are characterized by a narrow political outlook, selfishness and the desire to pupate in their little world.

            Whether it is the class-conscious proletarians. The broadest views are people. And you, as I understand it, are not at all afraid of losing your property? St. Martin would envy you.
            And so, yes, why is this "middle class" needed at all. The owners are small, shaking, you know, for their hard-earned money, doing businesses, buying houses, nurturing nationalisms.
            To dekulak and to the north, to build great cosmodromes. Uh-huh.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 13: 30
              -2
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              To dekulak and to the north, to build great cosmodromes. Uh-huh.

              ))

              funny as it may seem, but with these red scraps, the modern government is in solidarity in terms of intolerance towards the middle class. Not so, of course, idiotic radical, but nevertheless.
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 13: 49
              +6
              Did you read my comment carefully?
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Bourgeois with their bourgeois in this case only a breeding ground on which anything could grow - in this case, this bloody bacchanalia, described in the article, has grown.

              Quote: Trilobite Master
              radical nationalism - one of the forms economic oppression, nothing more.

              Re-read carefully, think about it and do not write nonsense.
              If for some reason you cannot understand the meaning of the text, I will explain.
              First, not all smallholders become radical nationalists.
              Second, radical nationalism is not the only form of economic oppression.
              Is it more affordable?
              And yes - dispossession in the north. But not all, but only those suffering from radical nationalism - are treated.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              And you, as I understand it, are not at all afraid of losing your property?

              Scary. But in this case I fear not Jews or Caucasians, Tatars or Buryats, but my own Russians, those who have more of this property than me and who, if they want to do this, can take mine away from me, and according to law... To do this, you do not need to send boys with bats (you can fight them off), much worse if they send a lawyer with a daddy. I myself am a lawyer, I can imagine how this is done and I understand that there is no protection that can be relied on against such encroachments, since the law is on the side of those who pay.
              1. Ryazan87
                Ryazan87 22 December 2020 15: 01
                -2
                Did you read my comment carefully?

                I read your comment very carefully. Excuse me:
                The social basis of all these ultra-nationalist movements is the same everywhere and everywhere - the petty bourgeoisie
                Their needs are limited to satisfying a primitive set of animal instincts - to devour, sleep and cuddle for something soft and warm.
                But the worst thing is that they need slaves, because they cannot build such a world purely on their own and cannot achieve a comfortable existence in it.
                You have expressed your thoughts about the middle class very clearly (regardless of whether they are radical, nationalists or moderate), so what is there to "understand". Practically, Ilyich is on the wire.
                And that is "nonsense", "you cannot understand." Comrade, do not exaggerate)) You write everything very clearly.
                Of course, it was curious to know your point of view, what ideas can grow in some lumpen environment. Representatives like the word "dispossession" very much, yes.
                Although who I am deceiving is not interesting. It is clear what you say.
                But in this case I fear not Jews or Caucasians, Tatars or Buryats, but my own Russians, those who have more of this property than I do
                - here you can turn to the most interesting question of the distribution of property and financial resources in the Russian Federation, so to speak, taking into account nationality. But probably useless.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 15: 19
                  +3
                  Truly, I see what I want to see. Only fear can have such big eyes. smile
                  Let me explain it again.
                  I wrote about radical nationalists emerging in the overwhelming majority of their petty bourgeoisie, and not about the petty bourgeoisie in general. Probably, it was necessary in the phrase "Their needs are limited ..." the pronoun "them" should be replaced by these very nationalists, but it seemed to me that it was already clear. It turns out not to everyone. Alas for me. I apologize, I apparently overestimated the level of intelligence of some interlocutors ...
                  Quote: Ryazanets87
                  you can move on to the most interesting question of the distribution of property and financial resources in the Russian Federation, so to speak, taking into account nationality.

                  But this is interesting. Specific figures from reliable sources are always interesting. How much property and finance is there in Russia and how they are distributed among the different nationalities living in the country. If you have such data, I ask them to the studio. Perhaps thanks to them you will be able to convince me to reconsider some of my postulates.
                  1. Ryazan87
                    Ryazan87 22 December 2020 16: 22
                    +1
                    Indeed, people sometimes say more than they want smile
                    Once again, your quote:
                    The social base of all these ultra-nationalist movements is the same everywhere and everywhere - the petty bourgeoisie. People who have something and who are terribly afraid of losing something. They are characterized by a narrow political outlook, selfishness and the desire to pupate in their little world.

                    It turns out that you wrote exclusively about ultranationalists. Well, ok, let's say I have become weakened by the intellect and understanding of the Russian written language. Overestimated, pardon me. On the whole, the petty bourgeoisie is quite normal for itself and it is not necessary to cut it at all (as one comrade here suggested above)?
                    About fear ... yes, I'm afraid. I do not want revolutions, large-scale civil wars, or social oppression. And I would also like to stay away from large-scale social experiments.
                    Specific figures from reliable sources are always interesting.
                    - what's the problem? You can start with Russian Forbes, the source, of course, is like that (it doesn't reflect a lot), but you can get a general idea. Take a look at the property. Yes, even from the store "Pyaterochka")))
                    R.S. By the way, "the world of noon" is a world of the most severe total control and diktat (you remember at least how children are brought up there), something similar is being built now. With numbered parents, juvenile justice, social capital, and bioengineering successes. We can also observe the progressorship techniques in real time. Waves dampen the wind, yeah. You will probably live in such a world.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 17: 46
                      +3
                      Okay, I agree that "them" are precisely the radical nationalists that can only be taken out of context. I was in a hurry, as usual lately. Please accept my apologies, this time without irony.
                      Regarding Forbes, do they write pedigrees, indicate nationality? And yes - Forbes, of course, is a reputable publication, but this is just a list of rich people who do not make general statistics, they are done by ordinary people who have apartments, cars, summer cottages, other property, have some kind of income.
                      And among all nationalities there are, imagine, both rich and poor.
                      If you have data showing that in Russia in reality, representatives of one nationality, on average, live richer than representatives of another, you are welcome. And Forbes - it's just members to measure. smile
              2. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 23 December 2020 08: 05
                +1
                there is no protection to rely on against such encroachments, since the law is on the side of those who pay.

                Quite right, she herself created the laws of nature, they are objective, and all other laws are created by people, in accordance with their inclinations and the wishes of their class.
            3. vladcub
              vladcub 22 December 2020 18: 45
              0
              Ryazanets, something like this
          2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 13: 27
            -3
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The social base of all these ultra-nationalist movements is the same everywhere and everywhere - the petty bourgeoisie.

            well, the commissioner's aplomb is understandable. And you, comrade in a dusty helmet, for whom are you drowning?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 15: 02
              +8
              Yes, you know, you want children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren to live in a normal, independent, big country, in which they would have the opportunity to grow up, to become what they want, in a country in which there is no need to humiliate themselves in front of someone who is richer, in a country where money is not everything, where specialists in every field of human activity are appreciated, and not only in the field of making money ...
              I am drowning for the "midday world" of the Strugatskys. smile
              And you?
              1. Nestor Vlakhovski
                Nestor Vlakhovski 22 December 2020 18: 37
                -5
                I want, do you understand, that children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren live in a normal, independent, big country,
                Modern Russia fits your description perfectly. What's not to like?
                in which they would have the opportunity to grow up, to become what they want in the country
                Russia is an ideal country.
                in which there is no need to humiliate yourself in front of someone who is richer, in a country where money does not solve everything
                And again Russia is in favor, the right of the strong prevails, and not some money.
                where specialists are valued in every field of human activity, not just in the field of making money
                In Russia, you can do anything, in any area. But no one will give you money either, because you do not need it.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 19: 05
                  +2
                  Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
                  the right of the strong prevails, not some money

                  The right of the strong in relation to Russia. as for the USA it is very well expressed in the film Brother-2:
                  Money is all power, brother! And the one is stronger who has more!

                  . laughing
                  This, in my opinion, is wrong.
                  It is impossible for money to buy scientific degrees, sports titles, creative achievements. You cannot make money by the measure of success, the goal of life. Even justice, which should be available to everyone, often needs to be bought with money.
                  I am not against money at all, and I understand their not only economic, but also social significance, but there must be things in life that cannot be obtained for money, only for money. I have listed some of them above, but you can add more.
                  1. Nestor Vlakhovski
                    Nestor Vlakhovski 22 December 2020 20: 03
                    -3
                    as for the USA it is very well expressed in the film Brother-2:

                    Want to talk about a rotting America? "Brother-2" is a good film, but still fictional. In fact, the difference is very noticeable simply by the way car drivers behave.
                    scientific degrees, sports titles, creative achievements.
                    - these are all candy wrappers. The knowledge and skills behind these regalia are important. Money is the equivalent of being useful and not doing useless nonsense.
                    You cannot make money by the measure of success, the goal of life.
                    money is not a goal, it is only a tool.
                    Even justice that should be available to everyone
                    So the right of the strong is justice. Who is stronger is right. It works both ways, not just yours, which is also true.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 22: 02
                      +2
                      I don't want to talk about America.
                      What you called "candy wrappers", apparently having nothing to do with either one or the other, or the third, there are very significant incentives and signs of recognition of their merits for persons engaged in the relevant business. Moreover, you will be surprised, but these "candy wrappers" also bring money, albeit small.
                      If money is a tool, then why do many of those who managed to earn themselves a comfortable life do not stop there?
                      The justice of the strong is not justice at all.
                      You know, people like you, I mean, with the same principles, I met a sufficient number and communication with them was always difficult for me. Hunt the one who is weaker and give yourself more dear to the one who is stronger. I had to hear this aplomb of the strong type and repeatedly, I also had to repeatedly, to see the subsequent humiliation, and, most importantly, after that - the same aplomb, no less. No remorse, no regret. In fact, you proclaimed the basic principle of the criminal community - the strong is always right.
                      I am sorry that people with such principles exist at all. It would be better without you.
              2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 19: 01
                -4
                Unhappy are the children on whom these utopian laces are imposed. It’s somehow not good to keep children for cretins by tempting them with this chimerical syrup. What did the middle class do to you personally that you hate it so much? Or are all sans-culottes so bilious?
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 19: 43
                  0
                  Yes, he did not do anything to me, I refer myself to him. Until recently, he used hired labor, just like a normal capitalist. To live with wolves is to howl like a wolf. The only problem is that I don't like howling, although I have to.
                  I am just a principled and convinced supporter of radical nationalism, just at the same time I understand perfectly well that its origins lie in the same social layer to which, in fact, I myself belong, albeit unwillingly. smile
                  1. Ryazan87
                    Ryazan87 22 December 2020 20: 03
                    0
                    "I am only principled and committed supporter of radical nationalismI just understand perfectly well that its origins lie in the same social layer to which, in fact, I myself belong, albeit against my will. "
                    Forgive me, you have completely confused me) Probably sealed?
                    And yes, curious as long as you involuntarily belong to the "middle class" (although, it seems, it is rather your conscious choice, albeit under pressure from the environment), then voluntarily, what social stratum would you like to join?
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 21: 35
                      +1
                      Damn, I didn't even realize right away what bothered you so much. You have to either keep quiet or really be focused. Of course, not a supporter, but an enemy. I am already angry with myself - there are so many typos, stylistic mistakes lately. Okay, I'll try to improve and not write any more on the run.
                      "Involuntarily" means that my specialty does not allow me to work alone - I need a team, which means people who need to be organized, who need to be paid and deal with other organizational hassle, such as accounting, technical support, client search, etc., from which I always nauseous.
              3. Xnumx vis
                Xnumx vis 22 December 2020 21: 03
                +3
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                I am drowning for the "midday world" of the Strugatskys.
                And you?
                And I remember with longing this song from a children's film... Far, far beyond the sea
                There is a golden wall;
                In that wall is the cherished door,
                Behind the door is a big country.
                Unlocked with a golden key
                The cherished door in the wall,
                But where to find this key,
                No one told me.

                And in this fertile land
                A large and friendly family
                People work fun
                And they don't divide the cornfield.
                There ripen by the blue sea
                For all, without distinction, guys
                And peaches and tangerines,
                And sweet as honey grapes.

                In that country - will you go north,
                To the west, east or south -
                Everywhere man to man
                A reliable companion and friend.
                The mountains and valleys are beautiful there,
                And the rivers, like the steppe, are wide.
                All the children go to school there,
                And the old people are always full.
                1. gsev
                  gsev 1 January 2021 05: 38
                  0
                  Quote: 30 vis
                  Far, far beyond the sea
                  There is a golden wall;
                  In that wall is the cherished door,

                  Do you remember Tvardovsky's poem about the country where Truth lives? And where did Pravda herself have to deceive her innocently condemned son in the last moments of his life?
          3. andrew42
            andrew42 27 January 2021 13: 51
            +1
            Very correct judgment. Just to the point. - About the petty-bourgeois breeding ground of Nazism and militant nationalism. Add a religious "divide" here, and we get a ready-made Nazi instrument.
    3. pytar
      pytar 22 December 2020 13: 13
      +8
      Probably, "Serbosek" hooked the most.

      On the territory of Yugoslavia, everyone killed everyone! Anger, hatred has reached prohibitive proportions! In another article on VO, it is told about the Serbian Chetniks and their atrocities!
      https://topwar.ru/32705-vtoraya-mirovaya-1941-1945-dvizhenie-chetnikov-v-yugoslavii.html

      The target of the Chetniks Draz Mihajlovic and other similar Serb formations was genocide, ethnic cleansing, massacres of Muslims, Croats and titular partisans, prisoners of war and sympathizers. The killing was carried out mainly with edged weapons.


      Two Serbian Chetniks kill a peasant suspected of having links with partisans


      Three Serbian Chetniks kill a peasant suspected of having links with the partisans.


      Serbian Chetniks kill captured partisan


      Chetniks kill a connected partisan who has fallen into their ambush.

      There were no clean ones in Yugoslavia! All including the Serbs are covered in blood!
      1. pytar
        pytar 22 December 2020 13: 25
        -1
        "Domestic political science and analytics have fixed themselves at the level of traditional emotional assessments of the Balkan problems in the categories of" fraternal Orthodox Serbian people. " Primakov over the Atlantic in March 1914. "
        https://serg-slavorum.livejournal.com/2362378.html
      2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 13: 32
        +3
        Quote: pytar
        There were no clean ones in Yugoslavia! All including the Serbs are covered in blood!

        I agree with the comment.
        all enthusiastically slaughtered everyone.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 14: 38
          +3
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Quote: pytar
          There were no clean ones in Yugoslavia! All including the Serbs are covered in blood!

          I agree with the comment.
          all enthusiastically slaughtered everyone.

          I came to the conclusion that the whitest and fluffiest were Tito's communists.
          1. pytar
            pytar 22 December 2020 15: 02
            +1
            I came to the conclusion that the whitest and fluffiest were Tito's communists.

            During WWII, Yugoslavia probably was. But later the titular communists made up for it! Lageri, Gulagi, iztreblenie repression on the basis of ideological and ethnic principles, "growing" new "nations", all this was in the mashtabs of the SFRY!
          2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 19: 16
            -3
            ... I came to the conclusion that the whitest and fluffiest were Tito's communists.

            The conclusion is strange.
            Kamnik, Bleiburg, Hrusice, Maribor. May 1945. Doesn't he say anything?
        2. pytar
          pytar 22 December 2020 14: 59
          0
          all enthusiastically slaughtered everyone.

          This proves the defectiveness of the idea of ​​a multinational Balkan federation / essentially a Serbian empire / attributed to that time and that level of national mentality. hi
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 15: 44
            +2
            The idea of ​​Yugoslavia as a federal union state, in fact, was not bad. But it is necessary to remember the unity of peoples, if there is a clear national idea, and here there were underwater cameos.
            We have a saying, Peter, it is better to be the first in the village than the second in the city.
            Regards, Vlad.
            1. pytar
              pytar 22 December 2020 17: 05
              0
              We have a saying, Peter, it is better to be the first in the village than the second in the city.

              We have the same saying! drinks It was on TV showed a grandmother who lived herself in a desolate village. They asked her why she would not go to the cities? So she answered - "I am here the king, the mayor, the priest and that's all! the beginner! I do what I want!" laughing

              The idea of ​​Yugoslavia as a federal union state, in fact, was not bad. But it is necessary to remember the unity of peoples, if there is a clear national idea, and here there were underwater cameos.

              In connection with the proverb, everyone wants to be a ruler in their country! You are right! Unification is really possible if there is a clear mutually acceptable idea (civilizational, economic, ideological, etc.)! And it should be on a voluntary basis! With the right to exit with pre-agreed conditions!

              Regards, Peter. hi
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 22 December 2020 18: 48
        0
        Quote: pytar
        Probably, "Serbosek" hooked the most.

        On the territory of Yugoslavia, everyone killed everyone! Anger, hatred has reached prohibitive proportions! In another article on VO, it is told about the Serbian Chetniks and their atrocities!
        https://topwar.ru/32705-vtoraya-mirovaya-1941-1945-dvizhenie-chetnikov-v-yugoslavii.html

        The target of the Chetniks Draz Mihajlovic and other similar Serb formations was genocide, ethnic cleansing, massacres of Muslims, Croats and titular partisans, prisoners of war and sympathizers. The killing was carried out mainly with edged weapons.


        Two Serbian Chetniks kill a peasant suspected of having links with partisans


        Three Serbian Chetniks kill a peasant suspected of having links with the partisans.


        Serbian Chetniks kill captured partisan


        Chetniks kill a connected partisan who has fallen into their ambush.

        There were no clean ones in Yugoslavia! All including the Serbs are covered in blood!

        I will say a little differently: "there are no white and fluffy ones in the Balkans" !!
        1. pytar
          pytar 22 December 2020 20: 30
          0
          I will say a little differently: "there are no white and fluffy ones in the Balkans" !!

          There are none in the world at all.
      4. Bagatur
        Bagatur 22 December 2020 20: 06
        0
        Yes! Yugoslavia lost 1 people. More than half of the Yugoslavians themselves were slaughtered among themselves.
      5. gsev
        gsev 1 January 2021 05: 43
        -1
        Quote: pytar
        All including the Serbs are covered in blood to the elbows!

        If it had not been for the Bulgarian-German invasion of Yugoslavia, its government would not have allowed such a massacre. In that war until 1944, the Bulgarians fought to burn the furnaces of Maidanik, Auschwitz and Sebibor, burn Liditsa, Oradur and Khatyn, commit atrocities in Babi Yar and Lvov.
        1. pytar
          pytar 1 January 2021 14: 17
          0
          If it had not been for the Bulgarian-German invasion of Yugoslavia, her government would not have allowed such a massacre. Bulgarians in that war until 1944 fought to burn the stoves of Maidanik, Auschwitz and Sebibor, burn Liditsy, Oradur and Khatyn, commit atrocities in Babi Yar and Lvov.

          By that logic, we can assume that if it had not been the Ribentrop-Mollotov Pact, all this would not have happened either! Essentially Bulgaria literallyo repeated the policy of the USSR towards Germany, with an interval of 1,5-2 years later. When the USSR didn’t mind ...
          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          In the 39th USSR, under an agreement with Germany, he regained the territory of Zap. Belarus and West. Ukraine, and a little earlier and the Baltic states, which were taken away in WWI. In addition, the USSR annexed part of the territory of Finland and the whole of Moldova. On these territories, the USSR carried out purges over its opponents.
          In the 41st Bulgaria, under an agreement with Germany, regained the territories of Macedonia, which had been taken away in PMV / 2BV. Until then, peacefully, Bulgaria regained the South. Dobruja from Romania. In these territories, the Bulgarian authorities fought with their opponents. But there were very few of them.


          There is no fundamental difference!
          1. gsev
            gsev 2 January 2021 02: 03
            0
            Quote: pytar
            By that logic, we can assume that if it had not been the Ribentrop-Mollotov Pact, all this would not have happened either!

            Maybe you are right. Or maybe in this case, the battles on Khalkhin Gol would have developed into a Polish-German war, the intervention of the USSR.
            1. pytar
              pytar 2 January 2021 12: 19
              0
              Everything is possible, but history does not know the subjunctive mood.
  2. Nazar
    Nazar 22 December 2020 05: 43
    +19
    And why be surprised at the restoration of a commemorative plaque with the names of all this bastard - red skins and so on. , on the TV camera, far from the last person in the ROC, Illarion (the external relations of the ROC) called the Vlasovites fighters against the regime, and here on the plate - "fallen for the faith" - as if the ROC was not without. Blindness attacked the prosecutor's office? Yes, and not only this plate, there is also a monument to Krasnov, some scoundrel has installed on his farm and now they supposedly cannot demolish it, but what about "private property" - that is, on private territory, the laws of the Russian Federation do not apply or what?
    Here everything is one to one, in Moscow a monument to the "literary Vlasovite" was opened, in St. Petersburg a plaque to the fascist henchman Manerheim was installed - correctly noted in the article - are we very different from our neighbors with their Bandera and Shukhevych?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 05: 53
      +30
      Subject for discussion!
      I propose to express their opinion members of the forum, who is in favor of demolishing this commemorative plaque "Cossacks"?
      Yes "plus", no "minus".
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 06: 12
        +9
        I completely agree, I squeezed out a plus.

        To erect monuments to Cossacks in Moscow is the same mockery as a monument to Mannerheim in St. Petersburg or monuments to Czechoslovak legionnaires here and there.

        To be honest, I would, on the contrary, erect monuments to Sievers in the Kuban.
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 22 December 2020 06: 22
          +10
          The enemy must not be justified, but destroyed. Let them figure it out "there". hi
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 06: 32
            +12
            Quote: lexus
            The enemy must not be justified, but destroyed.

            Yes Yes. I completely agree with your logic. There is a proposal to erect a monument to Mikhail Maksimovich Gvishiani in Grozny, but here, I'm afraid, it will not grow together (I would suggest Lavrenty Palych, I love him, but he has not yet been rehabilitated, unfortunately. As a compromise, you can consider Alexei Petrovich Ermolov).
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 22 December 2020 06: 34
              +10
              The Caucasian "friends" will burn out in one place then. laughing
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 12: 24
              +2
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              There is a proposal to erect a monument

              What for? Troll? I am not against the monument to Yermolov, but let it stand in his small homeland. Why in the Caucasus?
              1. Ryazan87
                Ryazan87 22 December 2020 13: 05
                +4
                Well, you can, of course, notice that the Groznaya fortress was founded by order of General Ermolov in 1818. Like a monument to the founder. But okay, why are there really monuments to Russian generals and soldiers in the Caucasus. Don't, right? And remove those that remained and were not destroyed in the Soviet period (for example, they cleaned up Arkhip Osipov).
                This is much better:

                Turkish askers, it turns out, fought for Russia, BGG ..
                And one more thing: the Kadyrov bridge in St. Petersburg is also an acute necessity. You keep quiet about it, it is better to draw a picture about the Mannerheim board (by the way, it was removed for a long time by a court decision). Show patriotism, say so. Safe and convenient. I see.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 14: 12
                  +3
                  You are like a small child - they show you the tongue and you want to do the same in return. Use your brains, try to think a little deeper. Answer for yourself the questions: what are the reasons for the appearance of such monuments, who is behind it, what is trying to achieve ... And then think about the consequences of the measures proposed by you ("you" in the broad sense), such as installing "your" monument next to it, and match them with the goals of those organizing the installation cited by you ... Catch the difference? I do not get it. Both lead to disunity, separation of peoples from each other, sows mutual hostility between them, which, in fact, is the final goal of the one who stands behind these monuments. Alas, it turns out that you are pursuing the same goals with them ...
                  There are significantly less effective, but much more effective ways of dealing with such phenomena than what you and the like superficially thinking people can offer you.
                  1. Ryazan87
                    Ryazan87 22 December 2020 15: 15
                    0
                    You are like a small child - they show you the tongue and you want to do the same in return.
                    Well that is you were publicly spat in the face, but you were offended and got into a fight. A superficial person, a child, not otherwise.
                    Do you see the difference? I do not get it. Both lead to separation

                    Well that is erection of a monument to soldiers of the enemy army or a Russian general on the territory of Russia - you can't tell the difference, right? And what is it that Mannerheim's board is bothering you? They would have sprinkled them with their brains .. "in cold blood" and would have said: "The main thing is not to disunite and not sow hostility." Or "is it completely different"?
                    There are measures, yes, much more effective. But not at the amateur level.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 15: 33
                      +3
                      The fact of the matter is that they spat at you, and you don't get into a fight, but spit in response. This is what I call "like a child." But flattery into a fight is just a more effective method, although in the case of monuments this analogy is not very accurate.
                      The Mannerheim board was removed - forced to remove - that's good. You would probably prefer to put up a monument to Stalin in Helsinki, or surround the plaque with signs of Govorov, Zhukov, Vasilevsky, like, there are more of ours ... laughing
                      The monument to the soldiers of the enemy army, in itself, is not a bad thing. Let people remember and know that once these soldiers got to this place, but here they were killed, and the rest were driven away and now this is our land. The question, of course, is in the wording - you need to be careful with them and, unfortunately, we do not always take this into account. On the above monuments, it is enough to change a few words and their tonality will change to a level acceptable. It is both cheaper and more efficient.
              2. Jünger
                Jünger 22 December 2020 17: 39
                0
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Why in the Caucasus?

                Is it possible to erect a monument to Ermak in Siberia? And Khabarovsk can be called that?
                As far as I understand, Dezhnev is also better not to mention there. Cape - rename.
                In general, it is better for Russians to walk with downcast eyes and immediately pay compensation to the nationalities at their first request.
                We cannot upset them. People in the prison of nations have suffered.
            3. Sergey Oreshin
              Sergey Oreshin 22 December 2020 21: 45
              0
              Suggest this to Ramzan Akhmatovich or Vladimir Vladimirovich, they may appreciate and give the go-ahead)))
            4. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 23 December 2020 08: 18
              0
              I would suggest Lavrenty Palych, I love him, but he has not yet been rehabilitated, unfortunately.

              I fully support it. You can start at least with the atomic cities - Sarov, Snezhinsk, etc. Unfortunately, the materials of the investigation into the "crimes" of Lavrenty Pavlovich have not yet been published (GK Zhukov's nonsense does not count).
        2. Jünger
          Jünger 22 December 2020 08: 35
          -19%
          Mockery is when the streets of Russian cities are named after Clara Zetkin. And the Cossacks are the same citizens of Russia as the others. And they did not fight against Russia.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 22 December 2020 09: 48
            +9
            Quote: Junger
            Mockery is when the streets of Russian cities are named after Clara Zetkin. And the Cossacks are the same citizens of Russia as the others. And they did not fight against Russia.

            Yes, they fought on the side of Hitler's Germany, but not against Russia. So, the German soldiers were freed to be sent to the Eastern Front, taking their places in the same Yugoslavia.
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 22 December 2020 10: 02
              -18%
              Quote: Krasnodar
              Yes, they fought on the side of Hitler's Germany, but not against Russia

              Comrade, so they could not fight against Russia. And the Germans couldn't. Russia was hit on the top of the head in 1917 and she was dumbfounded. The Cossacks fought to revive her.
              So that your relatives can live again in Berdichev, and not in Moscow))
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 22 December 2020 10: 09
                +9
                And your relatives were able to serve the Ubermench? lol
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 22 December 2020 10: 20
                  -11%
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  And your relatives were able to serve the Ubermench?

                  Well, I suppose that good white people will figure out who owes what to whom. We don't need Jewish prompts, comrade wink
                  The main thing is to send you to Zhitomir to begin with. laughing
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 22 December 2020 12: 02
                    +7
                    Only one side considered itself good, and most importantly, white people hi
                    As for Zhitomir - how are the Jews of Moscow interfering with you? They sit in their Zhukovka, lead a quiet village life. Maybe they create traffic jams for you on Rublevo-Uspenskoe highway? So they, it seems, go from there to work in the city, and you from the city to Rublevka lol Do not intersect fellow
                    1. Jünger
                      Jünger 22 December 2020 12: 20
                      -11%
                      Well, you are like a little straight ... The problems arising from the penetration of Jewry into the everyday life of conservative European states are well described and analyzed in the ingenious work of Adolf Aloizych.
                      Refer to the classics, but I have nothing to add here. Your brethren must be kept on a very short leash, otherwise you won’t blink an eye and see how a handful of Jews on federal channels discuss and condemn the ways of the Russian people.
                      This is an unhealthy gimp. Therefore - better go to Zhmerinka. Absolutely.
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      and you from the city to Rublevka Do not intersect

                      No, I go to work by train. With Uzbeks - proletarians smile It's hard by car - Jews create traffic jams, yes))
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 12: 39
                        +11
                        Do you have any other idols besides Hitler and Vlasov? laughing
                        By the way, since the historical example of these figures is not enough for you, then this article just shows you what can be if you and your like are not imprisoned in time.
                        When one nation declares itself to be the main type, as the Serbs tried to do with respect to the rest of the Balkan peoples, and the neighbors do not agree with this, it turns out that either Hitler's Germany is an option to the extreme (70 million victims, 26 of them are citizens of the USSR, how many Russians are count yourself), or here - Yugoslavia. There are fewer victims in it, but this is simply because neither the Serbs nor the Croats could win unequivocally and were forced to stop at what they had achieved. And if someone won and did what you propose to do in Russia - the fun would begin - they would try to annex Bulgaria and Poland, then the primordial Slavic lands of Romania and Hungary, Albania and Greece, well, Germany, which is also all on Slavic land ... More blood would have been spilled here, but it did not work out ...
                        For Russia, which scenario do you prefer - German or Serbo-Croatian?
                      2. Jünger
                        Jünger 22 December 2020 14: 11
                        -7
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Do you have any other idols besides Hitler and Vlasov?

                        They are not idols for me - one unbaptized nemchura, the other a renegade Sovdepovets. What kind of idols are there ... Here Shkuro was handsome.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        By the way, since the historical example of these figures is not enough for you, then this article just shows you what can be if you and your like are not imprisoned in time.

                        You, Mikhail, do not cut a bolt in my political platform. smile I realized this long ago. All you have stamps, but clichés.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        For Russia, which scenario do you prefer - German or Serbo-Croatian?

                        I love South Africa's way with apartheid. Well, the USA with racial segregation until the 70s of the last century is also very attractive.
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 14: 38
                        +7
                        Quote: Junger
                        You, Mikhail, do not cut a bolt in my political platform.

                        Oh, come on. laughing
                        Now here we have Adolf Aloizych as an example, then there was a case, Vlasov's manifesto was approved, they said, wiser that he wrote this, then you broadcast about the purity of blood.
                        Okay, Alexander, to portray the girl here. Have the courage to admit that in essence you are a radical nationalist propagandizing the same values ​​as, for example, Hitler, only in relation to the Russian people and with a religious bias. And at the same time acknowledge that by promoting these values ​​you are trying to prove your superiority over others that does not exist in reality. Realize that your thoughts and actions are guided by nothing more than fear for something that you seem to value. And finally, agree that the content of a person's scrotum is more important to you than the content of his cranium.
                        Quote: Junger
                        I love South Africa's way with apartheid.

                        How are things there now?
                        Quote: Junger
                        Well, the USA with racial segregation until the 70s of the last century

                        Aren't you afraid of a Black Leaves Meta rollback?
                        But the fall of the apartheid regime and the current outrages in the United States are not accidental and not a special case. You understand that those who built the United States until the 70s. of the last century doomed their children and grandchildren to kiss their black shoes today? fool
                      4. Jünger
                        Jünger 22 December 2020 15: 23
                        -9
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Then we here put Adolf Aloizych as an example,

                        Well, the man was sensible, whatever one may say. He took care of the Motherland. He was no worse than Karla Marx in any case.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        , Vlasov's manifesto was approved,

                        The manifesto is nothing like that. Maybe Vlasov really took the path of correction? In any case, calling him my idol is stupid.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        And at the same time, acknowledge that by promoting these values ​​you are trying to prove your superiority over others that does not exist in reality.

                        This is absolutely not true. I cannot fully explain the situation here, since for this article, the court and the Mordovian camps. But you are just trying to close your eyes to the obvious things and turn the arrows to the individual.
                        Any person in some way has superiority over others, and in some ways others have superiority over him. If you are aware of this, then you have already taken the first step towards a correct understanding of the situation.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Realize that your thoughts and actions are guided by nothing more than fear for something that you apparently value

                        It is simply unpleasant to see how our country is uncontrollably sliding downhill, overwhelmed by degenerate leftist women’s ideas. It is unpleasant to see how Russians are dying out and their place is taken by the incomprehensible Abduls, who were brought in to work by people who are "broadly" thinking and tolerant.
                        This is what I am afraid of - that historical Russia will disappear. She has already disappeared. The churches and monuments are still standing, but a little after the Mahmuds will unwind everything. How the communists unwound the Russian village.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        How are things there now?

                        There, things are the same as for any organism after more than a hundred years of existence. We will all get sick and die sooner or later, but this does not mean that we have lived badly or in vain.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        You understand that those who built the United States until the 70s. of the last century doomed their children and grandchildren to kiss their black shoes today?

                        The situation is filed incorrectly. That's right - those who built the United States before the 70s - lost the war of debauchery and degradation. These same children and grandchildren refused to live the same way as their fathers and grandfathers. They wanted a freer and more enjoyable life. Now they are reaping the benefits. For the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
                      5. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 15: 48
                        +6
                        How the communists unwound the Russian village.
                        The village was unwound by many tens of times increased labor productivity - one combine operator replaces three thousand men with sickles and flails now, and the yield is many times higher.
                      6. Jünger
                        Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 04
                        -9
                        The siphoning of funds from the village unwound them and, as a consequence, the outflow of the normal population and booze. My parents are from the village, and almost from one.
                        You have not seen life in the Baltics and England, but we used to go to the village every year in the 80s. And I well remember how she died.
                        In the end, there were already only Bukhariks left - a proletarian element that does not mow and plow.
                      7. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 16: 11
                        +5
                        I saw a village in the Baltics (after the Eastern Ukrainian, I understood the meaning of the phrase "should like land to the collective farm") and in eastern Ukraine. I've seen it in England too. Agribusiness technologies came to Russia from England - one combine processes half a village per shift. What are a thousand people to do there? And why don't you want to take and build a strong farm with you at the head? That's right, the city is more fun. And why do others have to live there, they also want where more fun. And I repeat, they have nothing to do there. Progress yes Technology yes At the same time, grain is exported in millions of tons.
                      8. Jünger
                        Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 22
                        -5
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        And why don't you want to take and build a strong farm with you at the head?

                        By the way, I would very much like to. But this is very difficult. So far, I only plant potatoes with tomatoes in the garden, but here you have to fumble cool, have a business plan.
                        Life will have to change. Revenues will fall to zero. smile
                        I will breed pigs on retirement, but for now I’ll buy some little land))
                      9. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 16: 26
                        +5
                        But this is very difficult
                        You see. And those who live in the village do not really need difficulties either. They are also white people.
                      10. Jünger
                        Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 31
                        -4
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        You see. And those who live in the village do not really need difficulties either.

                        They have experience of rural life, which is worth a lot. And they do not need to radically change anything in everyday life. But most of those who now live there simply do not want to work.
                        Whoever wanted to - chopped off the collective farm land and arranged a farm. But most swelled and died.
                        In those places where I come from, Chechens are already settling. They come, build strong houses and that's it. And ours migrate to the graves.
                      11. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 16: 37
                        +5
                        they do not need to radically change anything in everyday life.
                        We did not live well, there is nothing to start wassat They want a good school, college, hospital if needed. Work from 8 to 5, drink in the bar, not under the fence. In general, the city is simply better. So a person is looking for where it is better.
                        most swelled and died.
                        Many people also left for the cities.
                      12. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 20: 27
                        +1
                        In those places where I come from, Chechens already settle
                        Stavropol region? And why aren't Chechens stopped by difficulties?
                      13. Jünger
                        Jünger 22 December 2020 20: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        Stavropol Territory?

                        Yes, not - the Kirov region, a remote corner. There, except for the Russians, and the Mari, no one was born. I was there the last time about 5 years ago and showed the houses that Chechen families built for themselves. I don’t remember what they were doing there — they were raising sheep or stealing the forest.
                        There is not much work there, either an agricultural or a sawmill. Although my brother makes a good living there - a builder.
        3. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 15: 49
          +4
          Like it or not, it turns out that the ideology you are promoting is leading a country in which it will win to complete collapse. And the more radical the ideology, the sooner this collapse comes and the more destructive its consequences.
          If you like South Africa and the United States so much until the 70s, it turns out, you want your children or grandchildren there to live like whites in South Africa now, or to bow to anyone without getting in, asking for forgiveness for what you want to do now?
          There is only one outcome, it doesn't matter ...
          Quote: Junger
          lost the war to debauchery and degradation.

          because they themselves laid the prerequisites for this defeat, depriving their children of the need to fight for a place in the sun, and already their grandchildren are what they are. The right to live is better simply because you are white (Russian, German, Chinese, all the same), and not because you are stronger, smarter, more energetic, tenacious - in itself evil, because it corrupts the holders of this right. Those at the bottom become angrier, those at the top are weaker, so the defeat of the "upper" is ultimately inevitable. A natural outcome.
        4. Jünger
          Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 14
          -3
          Yes, any ideology leads to complete collapse. Any life is to death. Understand this at last.
          The fact that they were born has already laid the prerequisites for death.
          There is no ideology on earth that guarantees eternal success and prosperity. And there is no guarantee that your grandchildren will not kiss the feet ... Uyghurs, for example.
          Cause? Yes, there will simply be a lot of them, they will stick together, and your grandchildren will be religious and tolerant. And that's enough.
          The success of a people is possible only in one case - its steady constancy in traditions, culture, and religion. But this is impossible, since "progress" will cut through any granite rock.
        5. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 December 2020 17: 33
          +4
          Quote: Junger
          Yes, any ideology leads to complete collapse.

          It's just that yours, as historical practice shows, is faster and more accurate. Perhaps even faster and more sure of all.
          I'm not even talking about how you (this ideology) will introduce it to the masses. On the example of the SFRY, which, in fact, was destroyed by nationalism, this can be clearly seen. The same scenario, you can be sure, awaits us too - there will be "partners" who will support the right side, so that "charismatic leaders" in all parts of the country, like, you know, Yarosh, everything will immediately be formed at your request - guts, blood, anarchy. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Russians will be killed in places of residence on the outskirts of the country, a lot of refugees, rivers of blood. And the "Donbas" along the perimeter and along the Volga, for which no army will be enough ...
          And Mother Russia will collapse to the Volga-Oka interfluve and enter into a sluggish war with Great Tartary, or as it will be called ...
          I only hope that my Ingermanland will quickly join the European Union and NATO and will be deprived of these charms.
          If you do not understand this and think that a nationalist coup can take place quietly and bloodlessly, then you are an infantile romantic who needs to get healthy, adult cynicism somewhere, and until then do not stick out his opinion
          So, Alexander, take it for granted: you are an unconditional enemy of modern Russia and, most likely, deserve to go to jail, since the heresy that you carry is dangerous for the state and is fraught with a lot of blood for it. So far, thank God, it is not very popular among the general population, but it is better to suppress this infection in the bud.
          For this I say goodbye. Take care of your scrotum. hi smile
        6. Jünger
          Jünger 22 December 2020 17: 45
          -4
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          It's just that yours, as historical practice shows, is faster and more accurate.

          She proves the opposite. Empires based on nationalism have lasted for millennia.
          Your hodgepodge like the USSR and Yugoslavia, where they tried to glue the warm with the sweet at the expense of the majority, scattered in an instant.
          But everyone sees what he wants to see. Therefore, it is useless to prove something here.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          For this I say goodbye. Take care of your scrotum.

          Bye bully
  3. Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 16: 23
    +1
    fall of apartheid regime
    The result of sanctions (trade war) by all the worthwhile states of the world. And support by the Union of freedom-loving blacks. So they would have held out for a long time.
  4. Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 34
    -1
    Quote: Bolt Cutter
    The result of sanctions (trade war) by all the worthwhile states of the world. And support by the Union of freedom-loving blacks. So they would have held out for a long time.

    Holy truth. The handsome leftists crushed them. Forced to live in someone else's.
  5. Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 22 December 2020 16: 41
    +3
    The most interesting thing is that the negroes got practically nothing from this. As laborers in mines / farms, and continue. And the same white people live in the multimillion-dollar villas. Moreover, if before the workers were somehow cared for by the mine owners, now, if anything, they drive out and bring in new blacks, Nigerians and Zimbabweans.
  6. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 17: 18
    +2
    Quote: Junger
    The handsome leftists crushed them.

    )))
    This is yes. Only these were not leftists, unfortunately. Reagan. Thatcher, Bush-st., Major.

    Another shameful page in the history of the West. Rhodesia, South Africa, Hong Kong.
  7. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 22 December 2020 12: 53
    +2
    The supporters of Aloizych on the backs of their wives fell in love, so I do not advise you to read his works laughing
    By the way, why exactly in Zhmerinka? Che not in Tel Aviv, for example? ))
  8. Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 12: 58
    -3
    Quote: Krasnodar
    The supporters of Aloizych on the backs of their wives fell in love, so I do not advise you to read his works

    And there are no supporters here. I can't be a supporter of a German. It's just written there well and true.
    Quote: Krasnodar
    By the way, why exactly in Zhmerinka? Che not in Tel Aviv, for example? ))

    Well, Zhmerynka is like a designation for the Pale of Settlement. So it's like a tablecloth road even to Australia.
  9. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 22 December 2020 13: 07
    +4
    Hitler wrote a lot about whom he wrote, including about the Russians, and I don’t think this is true, all the more I don’t think it’s good.
    And drive the Jews out of here - change the train to a Rolls-Royce? lol
  10. Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 14: 06
    -4
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Hitler wrote a lot about whom he wrote, including about the Russians, and I don’t think this is true, all the more I don’t think it’s good.

    You can count whatever you like, we have a free country. But it's better if you do it in Tel Aviv smile
    Quote: Krasnodar
    And drive the Jews out of here - change the train to a Rolls-Royce?

    No, I won't. The trains don't bother me.
    I like practical cars. I'll take a Toyota Hilux to carry manure to the garden smile I'll take it without any Jews. And we'll drive out the Jews - the roads will become freer and more pleasant in the soul lol
  11. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 23 December 2020 17: 14
    0
    Jünger, what year of birth do you forgive?
  12. Jünger
    Jünger 23 December 2020 19: 24
    0
    Why do you need this, comrade? Do you want to humiliate me by age? smile
  13. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 24 December 2020 09: 25
    0
    No, not at all
  14. Jünger
    Jünger 24 December 2020 09: 27
    0
    Quote: Andrey VOV
    No, not at all

    Well then I will say so be it. It's purely a secret for you - 80th.
  15. gsev
    gsev 1 January 2021 05: 56
    0
    Quote: Junger
    And we will expel the Jews - the roads will become freer and more pleasant in the soul

    And a new virus will appear, without the Jews you can invent a vaccine yourself?
  16. Jünger
    Jünger 1 January 2021 14: 57
    +1
    Are you hinting now that Russians are stupider than Jews and Germans? An interesting thought ... Let's develop in more detail wink
    Do you have such a thought?
  17. gsev
    gsev 2 January 2021 02: 00
    0
    Quote: Junger
    Do you have such a thought?

    I am trying to explain to you that it will become more difficult for Russians to live without Jews in Russia. In addition, when a nation is driven out of the country, indigenous intellectuals are often the first to flee. For example, after Dudaev came to power in Chechnya, according to the testimony of his secretary, the first girls to run from Grozny before the Russians were those who knew how to correctly type in the Chechen language.
  18. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 16: 06
    +6
    Quote: Junger
    No, I go to work by train. With Uzbeks - proletarians It's hard by car - Jews create traffic jams, yes))

    It's sad. What a misfortune, a thoroughbred Cossack, a descendant of the Aryans (the Germans considered the White Cossacks to be the descendants of the Ostrogoths), travels in the same carriage with the Turks. Although take a closer look, maybe a couple of Tajiks hid there. They are Indo-Europeans, that is, the descendants of the Aryans. I also suggest asking at the ticket office who the driver is when buying a ticket. If the surname is suspiciously of Jewish origin, proudly throw the ticket into the trash can and wait for the next train.
    I myself am 1/8 descendant of the Cossacks. Great-grandfather fought for whites and for reds. Later he was repressed. Formally, I have reason to hate everyone and everything. The question is who will benefit from this. What will my homeland gain from this if I erase 70 years of the USSR? Ask what the White Cossacks did in the Ural Mining Plants. But what does it say in my hometown, the church was burned by the first Cossacks of Pugachev, in the years of the Civil, out of three inches, first white officers drunkenly fired at churches, then white Czechs.
    But we are not even talking about that. In a difficult time, the failed Visigoths fought for Hitler, and now "for faith, king and patronymic."
    Your patronymic Junge, died at 17. Mine is still alive, since I do not refuse it, unlike you.
    By the way, take an interest in who the proletarians are.
  19. Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 59
    -1
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    It's sad. What a misfortune purebred Cossack

    All ancestors are state peasants. So I'm a man, not a Cossack smile
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    rides in the same carriage with the Turks. Although take a closer look, maybe a couple of Tajiks hid there.

    I have a good attitude to the working people. Unlike many leftists, who despise the same hard workers in their hearts, but here they sing the praises of the Soviets. I worked at construction sites and dug ditches. So I will survive both Uzbeks and Tajiks.
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Great-grandfather fought for whites and for reds. Later he was repressed.

    First for whites, then for red? Well then, everything is clear and you shouldn't be offended.
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    The question is who will benefit from this

    There is no need to hate, but the truth must be disclosed. Everyone will benefit from this. Here it is bashful to keep silent and play the fool - definitely not necessary.
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    In a difficult time, the failed Visigoths fought for Hitler, and now "for faith, tsar and patronymic."

    I have nothing to do with the Visigoths laughing
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    By the way, take an interest in who the proletarians are.

    People fit only for breeding. It seems that there was such a definition in Rome.
  20. Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 18: 26
    +1
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Ask what the White Cossacks did in the Ural Mining Plants.

    And what were they doing there? Where can you find out?
  21. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 19: 58
    +7
    Next to me, 14 kilometers away, there is the Bazheva station. Today it is the Deer Brooks National Park.
    In a nutshell. The boy is 14 years old. Lagged behind the Red detachment (in which he was for two days). The old people said that it was banal to run home. Was caught by the White Czechs. They gave him to the White Guards. Those involved him in correctional labor. In the area of ​​the village of Polovinka, representatives of the White Guards who are admired by many have chopped off the boy's head. The old people talked about the argument.
    All my great-grandfathers, the workers of the Atigsky and Serginsky factories, were flogged. So for the sake of prevention. The brother of one of the great-grandfathers could not resist died. Another brother was taken into white, and there he disappeared. So to make it clear, two of the three great-grandfathers were not ordinary people, one dam master, the second steelmaker. The third charcoal burner (burner).
    When the White Czechs left, the White Cossacks shot 25 “communists” by lot to strengthen discipline! The draw was carried out on playing cards, the numbers obtained were summed up and the lists were checked against the factory tokens.
    Then they got drunk and shot the church from a three-inch. Then the church got from the White Czechs.
    So I have no desire to love Kolchak's white guard.
  22. Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 22: 06
    -4
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Then they got drunk and shot the church from a three-inch. Then the church got from the White Czechs.
    So I have no desire to love Kolchak's white guard.

    There is no need to rebel against the legitimate government, one must live firmly. Instead of sticking to a detachment of red "for two days" or sitting in a hut on the edge and waiting for someone to take it.
    Concepts, in short, must be specific, and not swim in the hole as you know what to wait for when it breaks off.
    Then you won't have to love anyone by force.
    The workers of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk factories did not swim, took a clear position, organized an army and poured red. And no white Czechs with the Cossacks whipped them. They themselves could whip anyone.
  23. Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 16: 27
    0
    Quote: Junger
    There is no need to rebel against the legitimate government, one must live firmly.

    Well, yes, you have to endure and pray. It will be reckoned in the next world. May be.
    Quote: Junger
    the workers of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk factories did not swim, took a clear position, organized an army and poured red

    Clear, but obscure: they fought in whites, but under the red flag and for Soviet power. The Reds were whipped, but the white command tried not to keep one with the other, tk. there was a risk that instead of the Reds they would kill "each other." what
  24. Jünger
    Jünger 23 December 2020 22: 52
    0
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    Well, yes, you have to endure and pray. It will be reckoned in the next world. May be.

    Take a pitchfork and go make a revolution. Who's stopping you then? You scratch theories here ... All your idols have rewound good terms, but you probably don't even have a drive smile And then you sweep the snowstorm ... Purely like Leiba Dyvydych laughing
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    Clear but obscure

    Degraded, but not completely. Common sense still remained.
  25. Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 07: 59
    0
    Quote: Junger
    Take a pitchfork and go make a revolution.

    Note - it was not me who suggested it! fellow
  26. gsev
    gsev 1 January 2021 06: 01
    0
    Quote: Junger
    There is no need to rebel against the legitimate government, one must live firmly.

    So the White Cossacks rebelled. They also committed high treason by going over to the side of the German (Krasnov), French (Shkuro), English (Dutov), ​​Japanese (Semyonov) interventionists.
  27. Looking for
    Looking for 22 December 2020 18: 40
    -9
    you are 1 \ 1 -balabol and demagogue.
  28. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 20: 00
    +5
    Quote: Seeker
    you are 1 \ 1 -balabol and demagogue.

    Arguments in the studio.
    Although, what to take from you "intellectuals" that the word demagogue means at least you know, otherwise I cannot understand they sing praises and scold me. wink
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 10: 24
    +7
    Quote: Junger
    The Cossacks fought to revive her.

    Sorry.

    If by the Cossacks we mean Krasnov, then his path with the United and Indivisible, it seems, somewhat diverged.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 22 December 2020 10: 28
      -5
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      If by the Cossacks we mean Krasnov, then his path with the United and Indivisible, it seems, somewhat diverged.

      There is such a thing. Lead him a little ... in the wrong direction. In general, I don't really like the Cossacks - they threw Rasey notably then with their independence.
      For which they themselves answered and the good people were strongly framed.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 December 2020 11: 27
      +10
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      If by the Cossacks we mean Krasnov, then his path with the United and Indivisible, it seems, somewhat diverged.

      Duc ... according to the laws of the United and Indivisible, an unenviable fate awaited him - for separatism, intercourse with the enemy during the war and a separate peace.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 11: 48
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Duc ... an unenviable fate awaited him, according to the laws of the One and Indivisible

        You see, I have big claims to the One and Indivisible. This idea came out very sideways, including for the Russians.

        But the Entente, yes, the Entente shit. And not only to Krasnov. So here I will, as usual, support Mr. Samsonov. These friends really have something to hate.
    3. gsev
      gsev 1 January 2021 06: 03
      0
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      understand Krasnov, then his path with the United and Indivisible somewhat diverged, it seems.

      An ordinary SS fascist in the service of Hitler.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 1 January 2021 11: 54
        +1
        Quote: gsev
        in the service of Hitler

        There are no special questions regarding the WWII period. I was referring to the period of the Great Don Army, when Krasnov, correctly considering that the Entente was good as a goat of milk, tried to come to an agreement with the Germans, contrary to Denikin's position. It did not help him, as well as VVD, but the idea is certainly reasonable. Actually, Denikin's tricks with the Entente also came out sideways. And especially they went sideways to Kolchak.
        Quote: gsev
        failed preparation for Japanese and World War 1

        Yes, you are partly right. Both Hitler and Comrade Stalin proved that the main thing in a war is to shoot everyone who is smart, it is better in advance, but at least in the process. Then, in general, do not care how you fight. In WWII, RI lost 10-15 times less to the people than the USSR in WWII, but this did not bring happiness to Nikolai.
        Quote: gsev
        SS Panwitz according to Munich verdict war criminals

        So what?
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 22 December 2020 11: 38
    +9
    Quote: Junger
    Comrade, so they could not fight against Russia. And the Germans couldn't. Russia was hit on the top of the head in 1917 and she was dumbfounded. The Cossacks fought to revive her.

    Reanimating Russia by fighting on the side of the Germans as punishers in Yugoslavia is a very cunning plan.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 22 December 2020 11: 41
      -5
      They were there against the communists Tito. The same serpent gornych, only the head is different.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 12: 02
      -2
      Quote: Alexey RA
      fighting on the side of the Germans as punishers in Yugoslavia is some very cunning plan.

      The position of the author about the Serbs who were offended by everyone - it almost did not arouse the interest of the public. In reality, figuring out who is the main cannibal is a rather rotten occupation. And there are some doubts that Comrade. Tito.
      in Belgrade alone, at least 30 people were shot and hanged.

      was such an unalloyed protector of widows and orphans. I, in my usual context, drew attention to the process of establishing socialist legality by the Yugoslavs in Trieste in 45.

      And here's another fact. Macedonia and Montenegro bloodlessly separated from the former Yugoslavia - this is when the Serbs have already got their brains out of the way - and Slovenia, which has no common border with Serbia. And where there were Serbs, there were problems everywhere.
      1. VLR
        22 December 2020 13: 07
        +4
        In Slovenia, the Yugoslav army fought for 10 days.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 13: 25
          0
          Quote: VlR
          In Slovenia, the Yugoslav army fought for 10 days.

          As if yes, this army was called Yugoslavian. But they are actually Serbs. Velko Kadievich, according to the results, was drawn to The Hague, but he found a better place, Rostov-na-Donu Moscow. As soon as the issue with the Serbs was resolved, for some reason it was not necessary to fight the Croats.
        2. Bagatur
          Bagatur 22 December 2020 20: 49
          0
          Slovenia is not Croatia! There is no Serb population. Italy (NATO) made it clear to Belgrade that the war will not tolerate itself. And the JNA took her feet. Unrest began in Croatia, and there is great love for Serbia ...
      2. pytar
        pytar 22 December 2020 13: 32
        +2
        The position of the author about the Serbs who were offended by everyone - it almost did not arouse the interest of the public. In reality, figuring out who is the main cannibal is a rather rotten occupation. And there are some doubts that Comrade. Tito.

        The doubts are justified ...
        And here's another fact. Macedonia and Montenegro bloodlessly separated from the former Yugoslavia - this is when the Serbs have already got their brains out of the way - and Slovenia, which has no common border with Serbia. And where there were Serbs, there were problems everywhere.

        Absolutely true! good The problem arose due to the fact that Serbia wanted to annex those territories of neighboring republics where the Serbian population was in the majority. But at the same time she did not want to give up the territories with the non-Serb population! hi
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 22 December 2020 11: 33
    +9
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Yes, they fought on the side of Hitler's Germany, but not against Russia.

    And they also fought against the Red Army - they were also proud that they "defeated the Soviet division."
    In fact:
    On December 26, 1944, the Cossacks of the 2nd Caucasian Cossack Brigade of the Pannwitz Division (3rd Kuban, 5th Don and 6th Terek regiments with fire support from six mortar and three artillery batteries) knocked out parts of the 233rd rifle division (703rd rifle division, 23 -th flamethrower battalion, two days of the 684th ap and a platoon of zen-pool company) from us. point Pitomach.
    Soviet troops left 205 killed on the battlefield, and 145 Red Army soldiers were captured. As trophies, the Cossacks got 29 guns, 6 mortars, 42 machine guns, 149 flamethrowers, 13 anti-tank rifles, 72 machine guns, several hundred rifles, as well as a lot of vehicles, ammunition and other materials.

    Here is a "defeat of the division." By the way, everything is as always - the closer to defeat, the more propaganda in the "victories" of the losers.
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 13: 58
      +6
      Here is such a "defeat of the division"

      Interested in the fate of our soldiers captured by the so-called. "Cossacks". What happened to them? hi
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 22 December 2020 14: 03
        +6
        Shot on the spot
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 14: 29
          +9
          Shot on the spot

          After that, the "defenders for the fascist lackeys" can stick their tongue deeper.
          Some of the "happily fled to the West" then scattered a little book - "The Great Betrayal"... In a sense, betrayal is not that the "Cossacks" betrayed their homeland, but that the Anglo-Saxons in Lienz gave them to ours (as they say - "but for what?"). Iosif Vissarionich was generally the greatest humanist - they only received camps for some years there (except for the leaders, of course) ... what
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 22 December 2020 14: 34
            +5
            I don't understand why they are given the right to vote request The purpose of the Nazis on the territory of the USSR was the enslavement of all representatives of the Soviet peoples, which was facilitated by their assistants from ChiVi, ROA and Cossacks
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 14: 36
              +5
              I don't understand why they are given the right to vote

              Albert, I don't understand either. request
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 14: 56
            +3
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            Someone from the "happily fled to the West" then scattered a little book - "The Great Betrayal"

            Naumenko V.G.
            http://militera.lib.ru/research/naumenko_vg/index.html
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            and what their Anglo-Saxons in Lienz gave our

            The concept of Western Betrayal is much broader.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
            But yes, the Lienz episode is definitely one of the highlights. Therefore, when liberals tell me that the Anglo-Saxons have always done only good for Russians, I remind you of Kilhol, which in terms of the scale of victims among (generalized) Russians is quite comparable to the Holocaust.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 15: 07
              +3
              Naumenko V.G.

              Exactly. hi About fifteen years ago I saw it in our St. Petersburg on the shelves of bookstores ... Is it for sale now - I don't know. And I don't want to know, to be honest.
        2. VLR
          22 December 2020 14: 38
          +5
          Yes, both sides shot the prisoners. So the Red Army men who fought against Hitler and the Cossacks who fought for Hitler did not consider each other "theirs" and hated each other with all their hearts.
          And here is what a certain BV Sokolov writes in the anti-Soviet and anti-Russian book "Secrets of the Second World War":
          In July 1944, a platoon of Vlasovites was captured in the Brest Fortress. The Soviet commander says to the prisoners: “I can submit your case to the tribunal, and everyone will be shot. But I'm speaking to my soldiers. As they decide, so it will be with you. " The soldiers immediately raised the traitors to bayonets, refusing to listen for what reasons they began to serve the Germans.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 14: 47
            +6
            they did not consider each other "theirs" and hated each other with all their hearts

            It is very difficult to consider as "ours" someone who first betrayed the Motherland, then became savage over the civilian population (and our soldiers saw and heard this when they went west), and then shot at you and your comrades. angry
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 22 December 2020 14: 55
            +6
            Quote: VlR
            “I can submit your case to the tribunal, and everyone will be shot. But I'm speaking to my soldiers. As they decide, so it will be with you. " The soldiers immediately raised the traitors to bayonets, refusing to listen for what reasons they began to serve the Germans.

            We got off cheaply. After all the destruction seen by the soldiers of the Red Army on the way to the Brest Fortress, the Vlasovites are lucky that they were not hung on their own guts.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 15: 26
              +6
              the happiness of the Vlasovites that they were not hung on their own guts

              By and large, yes.
              Among them was, for example, the 13th SS Khanjar Volunteer Mountain Infantry Division (Khanjar is a cold weapon, short sword or dagger).

              An unusual unit in terms of uniforms, as Valery pointed out - they wore a fez on their heads.
              Here is the emblem of the division - the same handshar.

              The fez was of two colors. The green one is for permanent wear, and the red one is for the day off.
              This one cost (already sold) - 1150 Euros. I don't know if it's a replica or an original, here's a link to an online store:
              https://militariaplaza.nl/archive-38/waffen-ss-maroon-dress-fez-2-detail

              But in someone's "Facebook" with Arabic script I found a photo of "brothers in arms", if you can call these scoundrels that way - a soldier of the "Handshar" division posing with "Cossacks". negative
            2. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 22 December 2020 16: 10
              +4
              The founder of these units was the leader of the "Palestinian national liberation movement", the mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin El Husseini. After the war, many Bosniaks and some Croatian SSs fled to "Palestine". Of the descendants live in the Ramallah area, the most famous Bosnian family Arabized their surname, now they are Tamimi. It is a pity that I didn’t know this on time, I would have asked for a visit to the grandfathers laughing
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 16: 23
              +5
              After the war, many Bosniaks and some Croatian SSs fled to "Palestine". Of the descendants live in the Ramallah area, the most famous Bosnian family Arabized their surname, now they are Tamimi. It is a pity that I didn’t know this on time, I would have asked for a visit to the grandfathers

              I, of course, read that the rats from the SS fled to Latin America, but that the representatives of the "Muslim SS" fled to Palestine - for the first time I hear .... belay
            4. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 22 December 2020 16: 27
              +5
              And not only Muslims. The special services of Syria and the tank troops of the SAR were founded by the fugitive Germans SS-ts (Mossad could only blind one eye and cripple the hand of one of them in Damascus with an "exploding parcel"), but the Reich rocket scientists in Egypt in the early 60s crashed.
            5. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 16: 33
              +4
              And not only Muslims. The special services of Syria and the tank troops of the SAR were founded by the fugitive Germans SS-ts (Mossad could only blind one eye and cripple the hand of one of them in Damascus with an “exploding parcel post”)

              EMNIP, the first Arab-Israeli war (war of independence) was fought with the use of German weapons and equipment? I mean, that swag that remained after the Nazis? Even German tanks were used there, such as the Pz-4?
              And here is the padded Syrian Renault R-35. At that time, it was almost antiques.
            6. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 22 December 2020 16: 42
              +2
              Both sides used everything that could be bought, obtained or stolen under the conditions of the arms embargo on the BV from the United States and Western Europe.
              Egypt - Messers, Israel - their Czech replicas. Czechoslovakia sold weapons to the Jews and Syria, with Stalin's approval (the German rifleman and Spitfires. The German fours were with the Syrians, until the Israelis knew how to use tanks, delivered them a lot of smut until the early 60s.
              Then the shooting standards were raised for the Jews and the Pz-4s were smashed.
              They also bought weapons through fake deals through Latin America (Heil Avir bought the B-17s this way), Shermans disguised as scrap metal, etc.
            7. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 December 2020 17: 03
              +1
              Both sides used everything that could be bought, obtained or stolen under the conditions of the arms embargo on the BV from the United States and Western Europe.

              In short, they blasted each other with whatever came to hand. what EMNIP, Israelis, in the absence of tanks, at first did some shushpanzers a la "tiznaos", out of everything at hand? drinks
              Then the Jews

              The word itself resembled a famous video, I'm sorry. drinks
            8. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 23 December 2020 17: 14
              +2
              Quite right - they armored everything that moved, especially since all Jewish transport was shot through - at the initial stage of the war, there were no borders and a front line.
            9. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 December 2020 17: 43
              +1
              Quite right - they armored everything that moved, especially since all Jewish transport was shot through - at the initial stage of the war, there were no borders and a front line.

              People just defended themselves. Here is the armored bus:

              and here is a whole article about Israeli "shushi":
              https://warspot.ru/8959-izrailskie-sendvichi
            10. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 23 December 2020 19: 27
              +2
              On the Jerusalem Tel Aviv highway (# 1) there are padded shushpanzers on the side of the road, constantly being tinted
  • APIS
    APIS 24 December 2020 06: 56
    +1
    The soldiers immediately raised the traitors to bayonets, refusing to listen for what reasons they began to serve the Germans.

    There is more than one evidence of how women in villages lifted the caught policemen on pitchforks.
    On the topic of the article:
    Remembering the Pannwitz Kozaken you completely forgot the Russian security corps of Skorodumov / Shteyfon. Those are also nice. Skorodumov demanded that he be sent to the Eastern Front, and Shteifon was completely Jewish. Zakovyka.
    There was no partisan movement in Bulgaria, so petty sabotage. In Italy (Hitler's ally) it was the opposite. The command of the Italian occupation troops, even in quiet time, helped D. Mikhailovich to kill the Ustasha, which later really turned out to be his side. After Italy's withdrawal from the pact with Hitler, several national Italian brigades were formed in NOAJ.
    There were also Bulgarians in NOAJ, but an SS brigade was formed from especially frostbitten punishers, which later defended Berlin. The Bulgarian punishers caught in Yugoslavia and Greece were executed by burying them in the ground up to their necks.
    Anti-fascist partisans were also in Croatia, and quite numerous. The most famous photograph of the execution of a Yugoslav partisan captures a Croat - Stepan Filipovich.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 24 December 2020 17: 49
      0
      Was born in Kharkov. Father, Alexander Konstantinovich Shteifon, a workshop master, from the Ukrainian Germans, who later became a merchant of the 3rd guild. Mother is the daughter of a deacon, Russian. He received his general education at the Kharkov real school.

      Typical Jew
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. APIS
      APIS 24 December 2020 21: 07
      0
      https://gotps3.ru/general-vermahta-rodom-iz-obychnoj-evrejskoj-semi/
      The most typical
    4. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 24 December 2020 21: 14
      0
      Fake - dad is Ukrainian German))
  • vladcub
    vladcub 22 December 2020 19: 07
    +2
    Nikolay, I don't know much about the liberation of Yugoslavia
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 09: 58
    +6
    )))
    I dislike the left movement, but I have no particular complaints about Clara Zetkin. Positive grandmother. Even if you ask questions "why the name of this ghoul is so-and-so", then Zetkin has a long list of local talents ahead.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 22 December 2020 10: 03
      +1
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      If you ask questions "why the name of this ghoul is so-and-so named", then Zetkin is ahead of a long list of local talents

      It's hard to argue with that)
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 11: 08
    +7
    Quote: Junger
    Mockery is when the streets of Russian cities are named after Clara Zetkin. And the Cossacks are the same citizens of Russia as the others. And they did not fight against Russia.

    Cossack - Cossack strife!
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 22 December 2020 11: 22
      -2
      You would have expanded your wondrous thought more informative.
  • Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 22 December 2020 13: 10
    -1
    How could such a remarkable figure as Rudolf Sievers not erect a monument? I did so much for the Kuban. Even though there is a whole avenue in Rostov, this is not enough. At the same time, put and name the streets:
    Hungarian internationalists;
    the Chinese;
    Latvians and Estonians (this on a special scale)
    It is true that there are monuments, and a table, and the names of villages and streets in honor of this rabble, and so fairly (the Chinese were just offended for some reason), but don't stop.
    Well these are not some invaders, this is completely different.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 13: 34
      +2
      Well, firstly, the sketch is at the wrong address, Rudolf Ferdinandovich is a native of St. Petersburg. Secondly, why not remember proletarian internationalism, for that matter.
      1. Ryazan87
        Ryazan87 22 December 2020 15: 02
        -2
        It is necessary to remember, you have correctly noticed this.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 13: 42
    +2
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    To be honest, I would, on the contrary, erect monuments to Sievers in the Kuban.

    How can you even erect monuments to those who slaughtered their compatriots? What kind of mental disability should you be?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 13: 49
      +1
      Someone you are too aggressive today. First, the Cossacks Sivers are not compatriots. Secondly, a proletarian and a Bolshevik, in principle, cannot have a fatherland.

      But reminding people of what Soviet power is will never hurt. For the same reason, I am not at all against the monuments to Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.

      And most of all I would like to see a monument to Brusilov in Crimea. Of course, Pyatakov - Kun - Zemlyachka is also good, but Brusilov is just my hero.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 14: 15
        -1
        I'm afraid your intellectually edifying trolling will be taken at face value)
        I do not create illusions and am quite sure that the ascetics will drag flowers to the monument to R. Zalkind aka Zemlyachki, be it installed in the Crimea.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 14: 33
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          will be taken at face value

          7 signatures for the Gvishiani monument are very pleasing to the eye.
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          I am quite sure that the ascetics will drag flowers to the monument of R. Zalkind aka Zemlyachki, be it installed in Crimea.

          No doubt. Rosalia Samoilovna is lying on Red Square, Kuhn and Pyatakov have been rehabilitated, it is quite possible to erect a monument, why not?
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 December 2020 15: 05
            +1
            ... No doubt. Rosalia Samoilovna is lying on Red Square, Kuhn and Pyatakov have been rehabilitated, it is quite possible to erect a monument, why not?

            ))
            Excuse my skepticism about your belief in the power of absurd therapy) I do not believe in cleansing the chakras and brains with such a method that is not devoid of grace hi
      2. Jünger
        Jünger 22 December 2020 14: 19
        -3
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        And most of all I would like to see a monument to Brusilov in Crimea. Of course, Pyatakov - Kun - Zemlyachka is also good, but Brusilov is just my hero.

        I don't understand - are you joking so subtly? smile And Genosse Himmler, where will we put it?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 14: 29
          +1
          Quote: Junger
          And Genosse Himmler, where will we put it?

          Honestly, I know little about the Reichsfuehrer from the good side. So there are no suggestions.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 14: 55
            +3
            Honestly, I know little about the Reichsfuehrer from the good side. So there are no suggestions.

            The only good thing is that he was detained by our own former prisoners of war. It returned to him like a boomerang ...
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 14: 58
              +1
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              The only good thing is that he was detained by our own former prisoners of war.

              From the Soviet point of view, the Vistula State Aviation Command can be considered a plus. But I have a slightly different approach here.
            2. Jünger
              Jünger 22 December 2020 16: 27
              -1
              He was a good family man, responsible and intelligent worker. A reliable comrade ... Isn't that enough?
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 16: 28
                +3
                He was a good family man, responsible and intelligent worker. A reliable comrade ... Isn't that enough?

                Hmm .. Are you kidding or trolling?
              2. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 17: 20
                +2
                Quote: Junger
                He was a good family man, responsible and intelligent worker. Reliable companion ...

                Excuse me, are you certifying Nicholas II?
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 22 December 2020 17: 22
                  -1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Excuse me, are you certifying Nicholas II?

                  No, the list of Nikolai Alexandrovich's merits will be wider wink
                2. gsev
                  gsev 1 January 2021 06: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  He was a good family man, responsible and intelligent worker. Reliable companion ...

                  Excuse me, are you certifying Nicholas II?

                  Nicholas II cheated on his wife with kept women from the Mariinsky Theater, allowed his mistress to participate in scams with bribes in defense orders, failed preparations for the Japanese and World Wars, for which he was removed from office and severely punished.
              3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 December 2020 20: 16
                +3
                Quote: Junger
                He was a good family man, responsible and intelligent worker. A reliable comrade ... Isn't that enough?

                It is worth adding that I did not miss a single actress. Surprisingly, everyone was not Aryan !!!
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 22 December 2020 21: 43
    0
    Sivers had nothing to do with the Kuban, he fought on the Don
    1. gsev
      gsev 1 January 2021 06: 20
      0
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      Sivers had nothing to do with the Kuban, he fought on the Don

      Moreover, Sievers fought with the German interventionists and their accomplice Krasnov.
  • gsev
    gsev 1 January 2021 05: 53
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    To erect monuments to Cossacks in Moscow is the same mockery as a monument to Mannerheim

    SS Panwitz under the Munich verdict war criminals. I wonder who in Moscow justified and covers up the SS executioners? Who does not care about V.V. Putin, who publicly promised not to justify Nazism? What employee of the Internal Affairs Directorate and the prosecutor's office condones the glorification of fascism in the territory entrusted to him? And when will these characters or their patrons from the bosses be fired in disgrace for sloppiness or Nazi propaganda?
  • Lexus
    Lexus 22 December 2020 06: 14
    +15
    The mummers - a broken bottom and a rotten support, it is clear who ... There is no longer time to demolish the signs.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 December 2020 06: 36
    +10
    But what about the authority that allows such signs to be installed? A fish, it rots from the head.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 22 December 2020 06: 46
      +9
      This means that this fish is already completely rotten, with all the consequences ...
    2. apro
      apro 22 December 2020 07: 03
      +5
      Quote: Sea Cat
      A fish, it rots from the head.

      Dead fish ...
  • vladcub
    vladcub 22 December 2020 19: 01
    +1
    The namesake, in fact, said correctly, but first of all, even if the entire site is "demolished" ', but this will not work: even on the site there are different people.
    Secondly, this is a question for the Moscow deputies: why were you chosen, so that you trindels or work?
    In the end, it can be formalized as a deputy mandate.
  • Serg koma
    Serg koma 22 December 2020 07: 18
    +8
    Quote: Nazar
    Blindness attacked the prosecutor's office?


    Quote: Nazar
    laws of the Russian Federation do not apply or what?


    Monument to Alpine Riflemen in Rossosh - "a monument to an unknown fascist". Inside the monument are the remains of the Alpines found in the area of ​​the fighting. The inscription on the monument: "From the tragic past through the friendly present to the future brotherly cooperation." And they are friends


    The solemn review was attended by NATO generals and the head of the region, Vladimir Grinev, who for great services to the guests received the status of "honorary alpine"... Mr. Grinev (Head of the Department for the Development of Municipal Formations of the Voronezh Region. In 2005 - by the Decree of the President of the Russian Federation, he was awarded the Medal of the Order of Merit to the Fatherland, II degree.) Has since become a frequent guest of sunny Italy, and after him new state personalities: Yuri Mishanov, the mayor of the city Eduard Markov and the regional researcher Alim Morozov.
    Letters to the president, appeals to the prosecutor's office, lawsuits in court in Rossosh are issued in batches. Local activists are preparing to appeal to European anti-fascist organizations - they demand to demolish a monument to the Alpine riflemen who occupied Rossosh in 1942 in the city center.
    https://chr.aif.ru/voronezh/events/shlyapa_razdora_v_rossoshi_uberut_skandalnyy_pamyatnik
    In 2018, the monument was still standing, although the prosecutor's office established that the construction was illegal.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 December 2020 05: 57
    +13
    Thank you Valery. As always, maximum information with a minimum article volume.
    After the collapse of Yugoslavia, people were outraged there, and the bitterness was great. From all sides. But I just remember well who in the Great Patriotic War was our friend and who was our enemy. Neither Croats nor Muslims were our friends, and this should not be forgotten. Whoever wanted to, he always knew, and Valery also added specific information.
    1. apro
      apro 22 December 2020 06: 13
      +4
      Quote: Sea Cat
      was our friend

      There are no friends there. The Serbs are not angels either. They built their own Iperia. And Nazism and they had enough. Contradictions between ITito and the IVSTalin did not form out of nowhere.
      1. Nazar
        Nazar 22 December 2020 08: 21
        +2
        apro (Frolov Oleg) - The Serbs are the ONLY people in Europe who resisted the Nazis throughout the war, neither the Germans, nor the Italians, with the help of the Bulgarians, Croats and White Cossacks, could not completely break this resistance.
        And Tito is not a Serb, he is a Croat.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 December 2020 08: 23
          +4
          They say - half.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 22 December 2020 09: 51
            +7
            Quote: Sea Cat
            They say - half.

            They say that the Chetniks and the Communists killed each other more than the soldiers of the Wehrmacht. Good morning, Constantine! hi
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 22 December 2020 10: 12
              +9
              Good morning, Albert! drinks

              There the devil himself will break his leg, one word - the Balkans. request
              By the way, there was such a Yugoslav film "Battle on the Neretva" (1969), have you seen it? They have something of their own Stalingrad, or something, so the yugas gathered there actors from all over the world: our Bondarchuk and Vidov, Yul Brynner, Franco Nero, Hardy Kruger, in general, the whole color of world cinema of that time. And the film, really, came out very good.

              Yul Brynner played a partisan demolition man, but still, he remained a cowboy here too. smile
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 22 December 2020 10: 15
                +6
                I'll have to look, thanks! hi
                Yugoslavia is a hodgepodge of peoples, without a totalitarian form of government (monarchy, "people's" democracy), it was destined to fall apart
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 22 December 2020 10: 23
                  +7
                  That's all right. We have a similar compote, only the territory is incomparable, and everything else too.
                  There, below, I advise you to watch another film, look, it was shot well, but better find a book, this is a story about the operation that Skorzeny conducted, trying to clear the partisan area, and he succeeded. After the war, the Czechoslovakians demanded his extradition as a war criminal precisely for this operation. Not given.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 22 December 2020 12: 48
                    +3
                    Thank you!
                    After the war, Skorzeny collaborated with a bunch of intelligence services around the world, it is expected that he was not given out))
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 22 December 2020 13: 16
                      +2
                      Mostly with the Americans.
                      There was such a publicist in the GDR - Julius Mader, he himself sat with Adolf, so he literally followed all the tracks of Skorzeny and wrote the book "The Man with Scars", there he just told how in 45, in the Alps, having received an order from Berlin to blow up adits with looted goods, he blew up the mines with accumulated weapons for the "Alpine Fortress", and his adjutant and friend, Karl Radl, sent towards the Americans with a detailed map of the location of these treasures. In short, he made his first contribution as a guarantee of future friendship.
                      Americans are business people and immediately appreciated everything. As a result, after Skorzeny and Kaltenbrunner were captured by the same Americans in an alpine hut (I wonder how they only found out? laughing ), Kaltenbrunner was hanged, and Skorzeny arranged an escape from the camp, and not even an escape, the captain and two sergeants from the army counterintelligence came for him in a jeep, with all the papers - rank-by-rank, took him, and only a few years later brave Otto showed up already in Paris. Such are the things.
                      But they, together with Kaltenbrunner, graduated from the University of Vienna, one - law school, the second - architecture and construction. And both of their faces were slashed with scars from student duels. Here's a short story.
                      1. Bagatur
                        Bagatur 22 December 2020 20: 54
                        0
                        Skorzeny did services at MOSAD. Killed the Germans, nuclear scientists who worked for Egypt.
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 23 December 2020 13: 29
                        +1
                        Well, he himself did not kill anyone, and not only the MOSSAD was involved in the story with the Egyptian nuclear scientists, many, but almost everyone, were very interested in the fact that Egypt could not create an A-bomb. Not so simple.
      2. apro
        apro 22 December 2020 08: 39
        +2
        Quote: Nazar
        - Serbs ONLY

        How who resisted? As nationalists? The Serbs had enough of their cockroaches in their heads. And their activities after the First World War, entertaining reading. With their nationalism, prepared rich ground for the subsequent massacre. Having appeared in the camp of the victors. In a multinational country. To look for the guilty.
        Yes, the communists were able to organize. But they had to wage essentially a civil war during the occupation by the Germans. More often they fought with Chetniki. Croats and Muslims than with the Germans. Yugoslavia is a chimera. Like the Caucasus. There are many rightists there?
      3. pytar
        pytar 22 December 2020 13: 34
        +3
        Serbs are the ONLY people in Europe who resisted the fascists throughout the war, neither the Germans nor the Italians, with the help of the Bulgarians, Croats and White Cossacks, could not completely break this resistance.

        The myth is constantly repeated by the pro-Serb propaganda waged in Russia.
      4. VLR
        22 December 2020 14: 22
        +2
        Quote: "Tito is not a Serb, he is a Croat"

        Have you not paid attention to the fact that many leaders, leaders, heroes of different nations are half-breeds or even strangers?
        Alexander the Great, who was the first to unite the Hellenic world, is a half-breed.
        Timur, who revived and expanded the state of the Khorezmshahs, is Barlas, a representative of the nomadic tribe.
        Napoleon is a Corsican, that is, in general, an Italian.
        Prophetic Oleg is a Norwegian (no one has ever considered him a Slav and does not consider him - unlike Rurik).
        Dovmont is the idol of Pskov and the locally revered saint is a Lithuanian.
        Stalin, who gathered the lost lands of the Russian Empire, is a Georgian (about Georgia, by the way, he once said: "a small piece of Russia calling itself Georgia").
        You can still remember the German woman Catherine 2, and others.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 December 2020 14: 52
          0
          Yes, Stalin always said - we, Russians, although he himself did not completely get rid of the accent.
        2. Jünger
          Jünger 22 December 2020 17: 05
          -2
          Quote: VlR
          Alexander the Great, who was the first to unite the Hellenic world, is a half-breed.

          Father is Macedonian, mother is from Epirus, which is the same as the Macedonians. What is half-blood here?
          Quote: VlR
          Prophetic Oleg - Norwegian

          There is no reason to think so.
          1. VLR
            24 December 2020 11: 56
            0
            Epirus is a Greek state and Alexander was half-Greek by his mother and was even considered a descendant of Achilles, which he was very proud of.
            Oleg is a purebred Norwegian Helgi, whose name (meaning "Leader led by spirits") was translated into the Slavic language - so he became "Prophetic". Moreover, there is a Scandinavian saga, the hero of which is very similar to "Prophetic Oleg": he becomes a prince in foreign lands, but dies in his homeland, wiggling a horse's skull with a spear (from which a snake crawled out) - as he was predicted in childhood. The death of Oleg in Norway is confirmed by the Novgorod Chronicle:
            “Idea Oleg to Novugorod and from there to Ladoga. My friends say that I’m going to him across the sea and will bite the snake in my leg and die from that. ”
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 24 December 2020 12: 02
              0
              Quote: VlR
              Epirus is a Greek state and Alexander was half-Greek by his mother and was even considered a descendant of Achilles, which he was very proud of.

              Likewise, the Macedonians are Greeks. Just peripheral. And the Macedonian dynasty was descended from Hercules, which was recognized by the rest of Greece.
              Olympias just added Achilles to the pedigree.
              Quote: VlR
              Oleg - purebred Norwegian Helga

              Straight purebred without impurities smile
              We only know about Oleg that he seemed to exist. And he lost the war to the Khazars. Everything else is lyrics. And whether he is a Norwegian, an Eskimo, or he will cheer - this is purely an area of ​​conjecture and assumptions.
              And his name can be deduced in other ways.
              Quote: VlR
              The death of Oleg in Norway is confirmed by the Novgorod Chronicle:
              “Idea Oleg to Novugorod and from there to Ladoga. My friends say that I’m going to him across the sea and will bite the snake in my leg and die from that. ”

              It is also wildly interesting - why is it confirmed in Norway, and not in Denmark, England or Slavic Pomerania?
              1. VLR
                24 December 2020 14: 24
                0
                But, meanwhile, a contemporary of Alexander and a relative of Aristotle, the philosopher Callisthenes, considered the king's Macedonian origin to be barbaric. His opinion can probably be considered an expert in this matter - the Macedonians were not Hellenes.
                According to the Norwegian origin, Oleg is confirmed in the Scandinavian source, albeit indirectly (because the hero of the saga is not called Oleg). Therefore, it is much more likely than English, and, moreover, Eskimo. In any case, this prince is not a Slav.
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 24 December 2020 14: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: VlR
                  But, meanwhile, a contemporary of Alexander and a relative of Aristotle, the philosopher Callisthenes, considered the king's Macedonian origin to be barbaric. His opinion can probably be considered expert

                  Probably only. There was an ironclad rule - only Hellenes can participate in the Olympic Games. So - Alexander 1 Phylellinus (Macedonian king) took part in them.
                  Quote: VlR
                  In any case, this prince is not a Slav.

                  On what basis? Oleg - Magus. The root is "olh / olg". The Magus is actually a tracing paper from the nickname Prophetic. Everything is transparent, logical and there is no need to build pyramids from theories.
                  Or do you definitely want to study the saga?
                  1. VLR
                    24 December 2020 15: 11
                    0
                    Phyellinus - the nickname directly says that the king was not a Hellenic: why, for example, call a German "loving Germans"? But "loving the French" or "loving the English" is another matter.
                    He was admitted to the Olympic Games only after he proved to the judges his Argos origin. And the participants in the competition demanded to remove him as a barbarian and shouted, they say, "OI is only for the Greeks."
                    Magus, like the name Oleg, is a word of Scandinavian origin, on behalf of Helga, which has become a household name in Scandinavia. The name of the popular hero of the "sagas of ancient times" Helga, who was killed by Odin's spear and became the leader of the warriors of Valhalla, became the title. And Igor, Olga's husband and Svyatoslav's father, is actually Helga Ingvar: Oleg the Younger. We don't really know what his name was. Perhaps "Prophetic Oleg" was also not called Oleg.
                    1. Jünger
                      Jünger 24 December 2020 15: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: VlR
                      Phylelline - the nickname directly says that the king was not a Hellenic: why, for example, call a German "loving Germans"?

                      Well, because the Macedonians are, shall we say, the Greeks under suspicion. Greeks living next to the barbarian world and often in contact with it. Naturally, they raised doubts about their origin. As well as the Epirus, however.
                      Quote: VlR
                      He was admitted to the Olympic Games only after he proved to the judges his Argos origin.

                      Proved the same. If you proved to the judges that the Macedonian dynasty is Greek, then what else do you want?
                      Quote: VlR
                      Magus, like the name Oleg, is a word of Scandinavian origin, on behalf of Helga, which has become a household name in Scandinavia. After the first Helga, who was killed by Odin's spear and became the leader of the warriors of Valhalla, this name became a title. And Igor, Olga's husband and Svyatoslav's father, is actually Helga Ingvar: Oleg the Younger. We don't really know what his name was. Perhaps "Prophetic Oleg" was also not called Oleg.

                      These are just words, behind which there is not a single direct proof. Simply - you so want and like.
                      I can do this too, listen here:
                      Sacred falcon Slavs from the island of Rügen were called Rarog. Coat of arms of Rurikovich - diving falcon... The name Rarog is almost the same as the name Rurik. Conclusion Rurik is a Slav. Oleg is his relative and also a Slav.
                      Proven - all Slavs, hurray!
                      By the way, a very real logical chain without any silly sagas. Pure logic.
                      Magus, like the name Oleg, a word of Scandinavian origin,

                      Of course, the Volga river is of Scandinavian origin. And an alder tree. And what is not Scandinavian, then Turkic.
                    2. VLR
                      25 December 2020 05: 00
                      0
                      Alexander proved his personal maternal descent from the line of kings of Argos - not all Macedonians. Macedonians were strangers and barbarians for the Greeks. Demosthenes also called them barbarians in his speeches against Philip, the father of the Great Alexander (the famous Philippines).
                      Prophetic Oleg is a Scandinavian, this is not denied by anyone and anywhere. They argue about Rurik to the point of hoarseness, about Oleg-Helga - no. That is why, by the way, he suddenly called Kiev "mother" - Russian was a stranger to him, and the chronicles brought this mistake to us. By the way, about Olga, one of the chronicles says: "she was of the Varangian kind." And also the chronicles convey to us her living speech: she reproaches the Byzantine emperor for holding her during his visit to Constantinople "in scooters on the zund" (did not allow her to go ashore). There are two Norman words in a row: I would be Russian, I would say "on boats in the strait." Her son
                      Svyatoslav was the last typical "Viking" among the Kiev princes and the first to bear the Slavic name - "transitional stage". Then the Slavic element prevailed. But even the son and heir of Vladimir Monomakh Mstislav had a second - Scandinavian name: Holti.
                    3. Jünger
                      Jünger 25 December 2020 09: 41
                      +1
                      Quote: VlR
                      Alexander proved his personal maternal descent from the line of the kings of Argos - not all Macedonians

                      You are trying to mislead me. All The Macedonian dynasty was the Argead dynasty. All she came from Argos. And from Hercules in general.
                      And we are not talking about all Macedonians. We are talking about the fact that neither Alexander the Great nor his father Philip were any half-breed.
                      Alexander 1 received the nickname Philellinus not because he was not a Hellenic (that he was - he proved it to the Greeks), but because he promoted Greek culture in the country. The customs of the Macedonians really differed from the Greek ones, but we are talking about a dynasty, not about the Macedonian population.
                      Demosthenes was a fierce enemy of Philip and could say anything about him.
                      Quote: VlR
                      Prophetic Oleg is a Scandinavian, this is not denied by anyone and anywhere

                      This is nowhere and is not approved by anyone. And if it does, then with the word "possible". Like all Norman theory, it is possible. To listen to you, everything has already been proven one hundred percent, but even 10 percent will not be typed there.
                      Quote: VlR
                      Olga, one of the chronicles says: "was a kind of Varangian"

                      Nobody knows what kind it is. Nobody has proved and will not prove that the Varangians = Normans.
                      In European chronicles, Olga is generally called the ruler of the rugs.
                      And the Rugi are a famous Germanic tribe.
                      Quote: VlR
                      But even the son and heir of Vladimir Monomakh Mstislav had a second - Scandinavian name: Holti.

                      Another attempt to categorically pass off a rumor from some saga as the truth. There is not a single reliable proof of this fact.
                      And not the second name, but the third then. In baptism, he is Fedor.
                      I understand that you are an artist, and an artist sees this way. But we must somehow more balanced and reasoned approach to questions. You seem to be writing historical articles, not novels.
                2. gsev
                  gsev 1 January 2021 06: 26
                  0
                  Quote: VlR
                  Magus, like the name Oleg, a word of Scandinavian origin, on behalf of Helga

                  There is an Afghan (Persian) name Khalik. There is a possibility that this name is from the Iranian-speaking tribe Ros. Ossetian and Russian epics are very similar.
  • Lexus
    Lexus 22 December 2020 06: 17
    +8
    One people. Only urine in the ears with different biochemistry poured / pours. Russia and Ukraine now.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 22 December 2020 06: 33
      +6
      One people.

      The fact of the matter is, and it must be the same, over time, "true Aryans" showed up, I'm already silent for the faithful warriors of Allah. Needless to say, there is more precisely, but they will be banned. I think everything is clear.
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 22 December 2020 06: 36
        +7
        Obscurantism is evil!
  • Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 22 December 2020 08: 09
    0
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Neither Croats nor Muslims were our friends

    Tito was a Croat, so I would not divide by nationality. The article in this regard is not entirely objective, because I would like to see the ethnic composition of the NOAJ.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 22 December 2020 07: 30
    +6
    However, it should still be said that Bulgaria was the only ally of Germany, on whose territory partisans operated.

    No, they were in Slovakia too.

    The wild animal hatred of the Croats for the Serbs is astonishing not only in WWII, but to this day.

    In Krajina, there was a genocide of Serbs, to which the West turned a blind eye and even helped to carry it out.

    And in Kosovo, they have already supported the separatists.
    The main thing is that against the Serbs.

    Nothing is sacred ...
    1. VLR
      22 December 2020 07: 39
      +11
      There is a difference between Bulgaria and Slovakia. Czechoslovakia was captured by Germany and divided into 2 parts: the Czech Republic, in fact, became part of the Reich, the Slovaks did not receive such an honor and they were given a puppet government. Bulgaria was not conquered by Germany and voluntarily entered into an alliance with her. Therefore, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania were independent countries - allies of Germany, Slovakia - occupied territory with sham attributes of statehood.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 22 December 2020 12: 04
        +1
        Quote: VlR
        There is a difference between Bulgaria and Slovakia. Czechoslovakia was captured by Germany and divided into 2 parts: the Czech Republic, in fact, became part of the Reich, the Slovaks did not receive such an honor and they were given a puppet government. Bulgaria was not conquered by Germany and voluntarily entered into an alliance with her.

        No, not like that: Slovakia was NOT captured by Germany in any way: it had autonomy in emergency situations, and on March 14, 1939 proclaimed independence-Before the formation of the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

        Quote: VlR
        ... Bulgaria was not conquered by Germany and voluntarily entered into an alliance with her.

        And Slovakia was not and voluntarily entered into an alliance with it.

        Slovakia LONG before these events had established cooperation with Hitler and set out to secede Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, and accordingly was considered an ally.
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 22 December 2020 17: 24
          0
          Olgovich, in fairness. This became possible only thanks to the Munich Agreement, when Czechoslovakia was rebuilt at gunpoint as they wanted: Germany took the Sudetenland, then in descending order: Hungary, Poland.
          The Poles were glad that they snatched someone else's, and Hitler giggled: I deceived you all
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 22 December 2020 22: 49
            +1
            Quote: Astra wild2
            Olgovich, in fairness. It became possible only thanks to the Munich Agreement, when Czechoslovakia "at gunpoint" was redrawn as they wanted:

            Nope. in Munich about Slovakia NOT A WORD was said or cut.

            Moreover, the Czechs themselves tried to prevent the separation of Slovakia in March 1939, but Slovakia insisted on its own.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 22 December 2020 17: 11
        +2
        Valery, good evening. I read with pleasure I am enlightened. Unfortunately, they didn't tell us this at school.
        I am proud that I studied in a Soviet school, but in fairness, we preferred to keep silent about the history of Yugoslavia and the Balkans. There were ambiguous facts and they were just being hushed up.
    2. Nazar
      Nazar 22 December 2020 08: 28
      +4
      Olgovich - Andrey, good afternoon !.
      I would also like to note the participation of the Catholic Church in the genocide of Serbs during WWII - Catholic priests baptized Serbian children according to their rite and Croats immediately killed the children - "The Lord needs the righteous", in the sense that the newly baptized child had not yet had time to sin and died "righteous." As far as I know, no one was convicted for this and the Catholic Church never admitted its guilt.
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 22 December 2020 08: 31
      +8
      No, they were in Slovakia too.

      There was a good book, a no less good film "Death is called Engelchen" was shot based on it. Just about the partisan movement in Slovakia, the instructors and commanders there were Soviet officers.
      I recommend it to those who have not seen it.

      As one heroine said there: "For courage under the enemy, orders are not given." (C)
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 22 December 2020 12: 12
        +2
        Quote: Sea Cat
        There was a good book, a no less good film "Death is called Engelchen" was shot based on it. Just about the partisan movement in Slovakia, the instructors and commanders there were Soviet officers

        Greetings, Konstantin.

        These are the events of 1944, and the Slovaks themselves have been partisans since 1939: of course, it was a meaningless minuscule, but nevertheless ...

        Slovaks, by the way, managed to make war with the Poles from September 1, 1939, selecting they have territories that they lost as a result Munich Agreement.
        Here is such a perdimonocle ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 December 2020 12: 42
          +1
          Good day, Andrey. hi
          Yes, I am aware that they, together with the Germans, launched an offensive against Poland and, it seems, through the mountains. I first read about it from A. Patients.
          And in the book, a specific operation is described, with names and other things, much has been omitted from the cinema and, in my opinion, in vain.
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 22 December 2020 16: 46
          0
          "it was a meaningless minuscule" when compared with the partisan movement in the Soviet Union - 10000 times minuscule, and if as a percentage of the population? A question of curiosity for the sake of
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 22 December 2020 16: 58
        +1
        Konstantin, it seems to me that the name "Death is called Engeheln" is familiar, perhaps I watched it on TV? I definitely didn't see him at the cinema.
        I preferred to watch romantic pictures or such as: "Teens in the Universe". By the way, I reviewed the "youths" a month ago in order to remember a fairy tale. For childhood - a FAIRY TALE
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 22 December 2020 21: 40
        +2
        Kostya, hello. I don’t remember such a movie. I'll have to check.
        Perhaps you remember the movie Rebel Story?
        The actions of one of the series took place in my homeland. And I'll tell you: it's 95% true. I knew eyewitnesses and in Izvestia they wrote, Man and Law (?)
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 December 2020 13: 26
          +1
          Hello, Glory. hi
          I haven't seen Rebel Story, but where does the action take place?
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 23 December 2020 16: 25
            +1
            "Rebel Story" seems to be episodes 8 or 10. I don't remember exactly. In one of the episodes, the action takes place in December 1942
            The Slovak battalion, together with the commander, decided to go over to our side. What did they tell the Germans? In the vicinity of the village of Ponezhukay, on December 31, they met a boy, his family was hanged by the gendarmes. In short, the Slovaks attacked the village and "congratulated" the traitors on the New Year.
            The boy, Sorokin, became a guide for the Slovaks. After the war, Sorokin was awarded: medals: "Partisans of the Patriotic War" and the Czechoslovak Medal of Resistance.
            The former police barracks, the school, has survived to this day. The streets where the traitors were roasted have changed. Not everyone knows this story anymore
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 December 2020 16: 37
              +1
              And whose film, whose production? And where is the village from? Ponezhukay - like something Lithuanian.
              I read about the commander of a Slovak company, who, together with his soldiers, went to ours, even the film was like this, but I don't remember the names or where it happened.
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 23 December 2020 17: 48
                +1
                Soviet-Czechoslovak film of the eighties.
                Ponezhukay, (village of Ponezha, approximate translation) aul in Adygeia.
                I read that about 300 people have come over to our side.
                There is no such thing in the film, but according to the stories of the elders (the father of my classmate, was a kid in a partisan detachment with Sorokin, old-timers of the aul) I know that there are 40 Slovaks, they quietly lagged behind and came back.
                There was another case, it seems, in Belarus, when the Slovaks with their commander, later a Hero of the Secular Union, went over to ours. There was also a film about this episode, but I don't remember the name. Perhaps you watched it?
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 December 2020 18: 01
                  0
                  Perhaps you watched it?


                  Yes, most likely it was him that I saw. This guy here.

                  Czechoslovak officer, participant of the Great Patriotic War, organizer and commander of the Slovak partisan detachment of the partisan formation of Major General A. N. Saburov, who operated in the occupied territory of the Belarusian and Ukrainian SSR, Hero of the Soviet Union
    4. pytar
      pytar 22 December 2020 13: 55
      +3
      The wild animal hatred of the Croats for the Serbs is astonishing not only in WWII, but to this day.

      Hate does not arise out of the blue. The outrageous Great Serb chauvinism is a catalyst for Serbophobia. By the way, nowadays the Croats do not have hatred of the Serbs. I often visit Croatia, there is nothing of the kind, except for the exclusion of certain nonbosh groups in society.

      In Krajina, the GENOCIDE of the Serbs was carried out, to which the West turned a blind eye and even helped to carry it out.

      There was no genocide, because the Serbs withdrew very quickly, not waiting for the offensive of the Croatian army. Ksati before that they / the Serbian / drove out the Croats from there, and in Western Croatia / Vukovar / they carried out a real purge of the Croatian population.

      And in Kosovo, they have already supported the separatists.

      Where do you think the difference between separatism and the right to self-determination? South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Crimea, Donbas, what category do you define?

      The main thing is that against the Serbs.

      According to the special commission ONN, the number of people killed in B.Yu. 100-000 and 110 million lost their homes. A survey from 000 shows that the majority of the 1.8 documented victims (civilian and military) are Bosniaks (2007%), followed by Serbs (97%), Croats (207%) and some Albanians + Roma. Bosniaks / Mohamedans / civilians have more casualties (66%) compared to Serbs (25%) and Croats (8%). Installed systematic rape of women, especially in Vost. Bosnia (83-10), committed by the Bosnian Serbs). A significant part of the victims, children! 5% of the war crimes in the Bosnian War were committed by the Serbs.

      Nothing is sacred ...

      The facts conflict with your sympathy for the Serbs, but the problem is not with the facts ... hi
      1. Nazar
        Nazar 22 December 2020 20: 03
        -1

        pytar - Whose studies and figures are you citing - NATO? Your country is now in NATO and you are, of course, promoting their information, according to which, of course, "the Serbs killed everyone" and therefore they had to be bombed. Well it is necessary to carry such nonsense "90% of crimes" is it from the point of view of NATO?
        But in our opinion, one thing is that Serbia is not in NATO says a lot.
        And your country once again "changed shoes" in the air and again against Russia, the NATO bedding - twice in history after the First World War and after the second, these Bulgarian tricks went unpunished - the third time will not work.
        1. pytar
          pytar 22 December 2020 20: 59
          -1
          Whose research and figures are you citing - NATO?

          A huge amount of information has been collected from the UN side. The evidence is undeniable! But it doesn't reach you! You have pro-Serb propaganda outrageous! I have not seen in Russian media not once, the point of view of Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians!
          Well it is necessary to carry such nonsense "90% of crimes" is it from the point of view of NATO?

          It so happened, I was a witness to these events. 90% of the hostilities in the 1st Yugoslav War took place in territories with a non-Serb population. Accordingly, the excesses of the local population were committed by the Serbs. Everything can still be seen. Walk around Bosnia, Croatia, see endless cemeteries ... There are names, dates, age ...
          You are of course promoting their information, according to which, of course, "the Serbs killed everyone" and therefore they had to be bombed

          Most of you are confused by the events. The first Yugoslav war was fought on the territory of Bosnia and Grecegovina, Croatia and, for a short time, in Slovenia. Not a single bomb fell on the territory of Serbia proper. It is the Serbs who bombed the Bosnian and Croatian cities! Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Sarajevo ... hundreds of other cities and villages! Wouldn't it be an ultimatum of NATO, it would still be cut there!
          The second Yugoslav war / Kosovo / was already on the territory of Serbia. NATO did bomb, but the number of victims is several times less than during the first war in the south.
          And your country has once again "changed shoes" in the air and again against Russia, NATO bedding ...

          After you gentlemen! You started this, you betrayed everyone! Has no right to reproach anyone, because you are not the best.
          ... these Bulgarian tricks went unpunished - the third time will not work.

          Calm down, there will be no third time, because your beginners will not go spoiling your business and your life! And so that you do not ask "unnecessary" questions, they fool your brains with frenzied patriotism - "NATO is at the gates of Russia, about to attack ..."! Nobody will attack anyone, they are all lads, Igor ... laughing
          1. Nazar
            Nazar 22 December 2020 21: 14
            -1
            pytar -
            When the Russian Empire collapsed, the "lads" also came to power - Trotsky protege of Jacob Schiff, and a whole set of "accomplices" with him.
            Almost all of them were cut out in 1936-37, Trotsky was pounded a little later.
            So the current "lads" are not eternal, if they are not cut out, they themselves will merge by age, almost everyone is already under 70t. Who will take their place? The question is serious - there may be those who will not suit your current masters at all - in this case, war is quite likely. And then all these Romania, Bulgaria and other Poland will become just a battlefield, with all the ensuing consequences, there is no Siberia in your countries, Boyan? You have nowhere to sit belay
      2. gsev
        gsev 1 January 2021 06: 35
        0
        Quote: pytar
        Where do you think the difference between separatism and the right to self-determination? South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Crimea, Donbas, what category do you define?

        Where the separatists were able to defeat the metropolis, a national liberation struggle took place there. For example, this happened in the United States with the help of polite people from France, led by the French and American national hero Lafayette. It is possible that in the next century, the Turks, thanks to the wise policy launched by Erdogan, will be able to suppress the Bulgarian, Greek, Macedonian, Romanian, German, Spanish separatism.
    5. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 22 December 2020 21: 55
      0
      Well, then they openly declared that "Muslims and Catholics are brothers forever." And they acted as a united front against the Orthodox.
  • Avior
    Avior 22 December 2020 08: 27
    +6
    As a child, I had a book by Dobri Marinov Dzhurov about the partisan movement in Bulgaria.
    Before that, I had only heard about our partisans.
    I remember that I was amazed that the Bulgarian partisans pretended to be tourists. Somehow it didn't fit with stories about the war.
    1. Bagatur
      Bagatur 22 December 2020 13: 05
      +6
      Partisans in Bulgaria is a joke ... Our communes were sitting in brilliant green, robbing peasants so that they would not die of hunger. Nobody supported them ... Until the Red Army came and put the country in power. We went to the Soviet commandant Varna ... "Comrade Major, we got up ... ???? We got up ?! Why didn't we get up yesterday ..."
  • Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 08: 31
    -8
    To the Cossacks who fell for Faith, Tsar and Fatherland.

    I am glad that slowly the brains of the citizens are beginning to clear themselves of the red infection.
    But very slowly, of course.
    1. Dym71
      Dym71 22 December 2020 12: 35
      +4
      Quote: Junger
      But very slowly, of course.

      You should have companions, but more, and ardent ones! wassat
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 22 December 2020 12: 47
        -2
        Valeria Ilyinichna was close friends with a Jew - I forgot his last name. And not just one. So it does not roll into companions smile
        1. gsev
          gsev 1 January 2021 06: 44
          0
          Quote: Junger
          Valeria Ilyinichna was close friends with a Jew - I forgot his last name. And not just one. So it does not roll into companions

          But in contrast to the losers of the white movement, who were not friends with the Jews: Krasnov, Semenov, Ungern, she defeated the communists.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 22 December 2020 18: 28
        +4
        Let's just say the "commies" are also different: Stalin and Khrushchev, Vlasov and Govorov. Gaidar, Yeltsin were also "commies"
      3. gsev
        gsev 1 January 2021 06: 40
        0
        Quote: Dym71
        You should have companions, but more, and ardent ones!

        And where is her photo with the slogan of a lady with low social responsibility, the coolest anti-communist slogan: "I won't give it to a Russian!"
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 22 December 2020 11: 27
    +3
    For this topic, I recommend this book:
  • Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 22 December 2020 12: 41
    +2
    Unfortunately, this is the weakest article in the cycle, there is little information, the author has a lot of emotions.
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 22 December 2020 12: 57
    +4
    Incorrectly indicated the number of Croatian Wehrmacht divisions. Incorrect dates for Pavelic's biography. The author's translation of the inscription on the propaganda poster is extremely alternative (despite the fact that you don't even need knowledge of the language to read this inscription). The history of the formations is incorrectly stated (the 369 regiment is the core of the future 369 division, and not an "addition" to the existing divisions, the Cossack division consisted not only and not so much of white emigrants as of citizens of the USSR + Germans)
    All these, of course, are more likely the laws of the genre. But there are more important points.
    Croats and Serbs are two different peoples. To argue the kinship of their origin by the kinship of the language (which itself is a remake and analogue of Esperanto) is like declaring that the Aztecs and the Spaniards are one people, because they now speak the same language.
    Pannwitz was not a caricatured degenerate, and repeating propaganda clichés 70+ years ago, even for the purpose of promoting good, is bad manners. Pannwitz really defended his subordinates, rightly believing that a wide propaganda campaign was being waged against his division. It is also true that this propaganda was based, though exaggerated to the point of grotesque absurdity (Pannwitz's "quote" in the article), but numerous real facts of robberies and rapes. Moreover, the behavior of the Cossacks horrified the Germans themselves. Cases of Cossack atrocities were subject to investigation. The first sentences appeared. According to the results of investigations, sentences of the military field courts of the Vemakht and the Cossacks for "excesses" began to be shot. The Cossacks began to desert in small groups with weapons. This was Pannwitz's dilemma. Punish, keep in check, but at the same time close your eyes to many things. Standard "management problem".
    Pannwitz was shot not so much for the crimes of his division (although it was formulated that way), but for his chieftaincy and politics.
    In general, the post-war fate of the Wehrmacht officers who fought in the Balkans and the same Pavelic, "mufti", Kammerhofer, etc. is indicative. It is immediately clear who made the mess, who is the valuable shot, and who is the switchman
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 22 December 2020 14: 50
      0
      Quote: Force Multiplier
      Croats and Serbs are two different peoples.

      What is their difference as peoples? The Aztecs and Spaniards are peoples of fundamentally different origins. Comparing them with the Serbs and Croats is inappropriate, since the latter peoples belong to the Slavic community. For about a thousand and a half years they lived side by side.
      Please explain your vision of the situation.
      1. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier 22 December 2020 16: 59
        -5
        The comparison is more than appropriate. There is no "Slavic community" in the ethnic sense. We can only talk about linguistic community. And then, if you do not touch on what the "Slavic" languages ​​are in essence.
        Ethnically Croats - Goths-Greatungs (Greatungs = Croats, this is the self-name) + some part of the Sarmatian peoples subordinate to them + Illyrians
        Serbs - Sarmatian people from the Caspian steppes. A people ethnically close to the same Cossacks
        They lived side by side, both in the East and in the Balkans, but in both cases on different sides of the political and cultural (simplifying, civilizational) borders, within the same culture, staying for a relatively short time in the second half of the 1st millennium (Byzantium). As a result, the socio-cultural community did not work out either
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 22 December 2020 17: 29
          +3
          Quote: Force Multiplier
          There is no "Slavic community" in the ethnic sense.

          Quote: Force Multiplier
          Croatians ethnically - Goth Greatungs

          Quote: Force Multiplier
          Serbs - Sarmatian people from the Caspian steppes.

          Got it laughing I have no more questions. I'm not asking about the sources of revelations.
          1. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier 22 December 2020 19: 50
            -2
            Don't worry like that. I already see that in fact you have nothing to argue with
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 22 December 2020 21: 45
              +2
              But what can I argue here - for example, Doctor of History. Alekseev in his cult, in my opinion, two-volume book "Slavic Europe" (I have it even in paper form smile ) writes the following:
              First of all, this is the tribal name "Croats" (* хъrvate), originally referring to the inhabitants of the Upper Dniester region. This name was, according to a number of linguists, the Iranian folk form of the ethnonym "Sarmatians" (by Indo-Aryan origin) - hence the proper name "Horvat" in the Sarmatian environment of the XNUMXnd-XNUMXrd centuries

              Those. not a word about the Goths-greatungs.
              Initially, the Serbs were to be among the Ant tribes. The name of this Slavic people originates in the Scythian-Sarmatian steppes, where it is mentioned by ancient authors. [102] Slavs-Serbs, like Croats, were also called "white" from ancient times. The original localization of all these Antian tribes is unknown to us.

              So perhaps there is a certain minimum grain of truth in your words about the Sarmatians. But only minimal. And only possible.
              1. Force multiplier
                Force multiplier 22 December 2020 23: 29
                0
                You have not asked yourself a question: where did kin Alekseev get this? What are its sources?
                Because the most important primary sources on the history of Croatia - "History of the Archbishops of Salona and Split" by Thomas of Split and the famous "Chronicle of the priest Duklianin" say that the Croats are Goths. The "Slavs" by Thomas of Split are mentioned in such a context that with the Goths came tribes from Poland and Moravia, called "Slavs". "Slavs" are tributaries of the Goths (like Glades, for example, tributaries of the Rus). That is precisely why they, like Polyana, are "Slavs". K.Bagryanorodny, by the way, does not call the Croats or the Rus "Slavs".
                The Byzantines began to call the Goths themselves "Slavs" after they fell into dependence on Constantinople. Here at Jordan Gotha is not yet "Slavs", but at Theophylact Simokatta, after the fall of the Gothic kingdom in Italy - already "Slavs".
                Moreover, already in the New Time, Pan-Slavism (Orbini and beyond) began with the identification of the Goths with the "Slavs". And until the middle of the XVIII century the Goths and the "Slavs" were synonymous

                According to the Greatungs, this is my assumption based on obvious consonance. In addition, Jordan speaking about the kingdom of the Ostrogoths, which at one time included part of the territory of modern Croatia, deduces its continuity of statehood from the Greatungs. Yes, original research, but history does not have to be a dogma, science is always original research, and not a retelling of a "book" for generations. Thomas of Splitsky believed that Croats = Kurets. And I agree with him too. All these are variations of one ethnonym recorded at different times by ear using different writing systems. (I will give an analogy - Rugii and Ῥῶς are one ethnonym, literally identical in meaning, denoting the same ethnos, only in two different languages ​​- Latin and Greek. Only official textbooks and Wikipedia do not "see" this and believe that they are different peoples)

                Serbs - yes, these ancient authors Pliny and Ptolemy
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 23 December 2020 09: 24
                  +1
                  Quote: Force Multiplier
                  You have not asked yourself a question: where did kin Alekseev get this? What are its sources?

                  That's why he is a doctor, so that I can trust his sources. I have neither the time, nor the desire, nor the linguistic ability to analyze and double-check its sources. request
                  Quote: Force Multiplier
                  the most important primary sources on the history of Croatia - "History of the Archbishops of Salona and Split" by Thomas of Split and the famous "Chronicle of the priest Dukljanin" say that the Croats are Goths

                  It is not important what they say, since it was fashionable to withdraw oneself from the Goths in the Middle Ages. The Swedes did the same. All these tales can be believed in the same way as the stories of Tsar John Vasilyevich about his descent from Caesar Augustus.
                  All these chronicler authors replicated legends, rumors, fables and fantasies, as they wrote from scratch after many hundreds of years without any reliable basis for writing.
                  In their writings, of course, there is a grain of truth, but it is very small and, in order to isolate it, you have to try pretty hard.
                  And for you everything is simple - it is written by the fabulist "Goths", which means "Goths". smile
                  Quote: Force Multiplier
                  with the Goths came tribes from Poland and Moravia, called "Slavs". "Slavs" are tributaries of the Goths

                  There is a fair amount of truth in this, if we remember that the Slavs were part of the Gothic state of Germanarich.
                  Quote: Force Multiplier
                  K. Bagryanorodny, by the way, does not call the Croats or the Rus "Slavs".

                  As for the Croats, I don't know what Konstantin was talking about about them. And about Russia - a sign.
                  Quote: Force Multiplier
                  The Byzantines began to call the Goths themselves "Slavs" after they fell into dependence on Constantinople. Here at Jordan Gotha is not yet "Slavs", but at Theophylact Simokatta, after the fall of the Gothic kingdom in Italy - already "Slavs".

                  Well, this is purely your interpretation.
                  Quote: Force Multiplier
                  According to the Greatungs, this is my guess based on obvious consonance.

                  Are you a doctor or candidate of historical sciences? If not, then your assumptions have nothing to do with the case. smile
                  I can assume that the Earth is square and I know reliable people who saw it themselves.
                  1. Force multiplier
                    Force multiplier 23 December 2020 10: 36
                    -2
                    I understand your idea. In the book, the doctor writes the truth. The Pravda newspaper writes only the truth.
                    But still think, why did the doctor become a doctor, who awarded the degree? State. This means that he can write only within the framework of the state ideology.
                    What the sources say is crucial. There are no others. And they can only be interpreted unambiguously, there are no three layers of meaning as it happens in art.
                    All modern constructs about "Slavs" were invented in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. It was invented. For the "Pan-Slavists" the sources, as well as for you, were not important. But it was important for them, with the money of the Vatican, and later the British, to form the identity of the Untermensch, who had allegedly been sitting in a swamp for millennia and had no relation to the cultural and historical development of Europe, a "second-class" identity. And here the Goths, the ethnonym itself, indicates a special connection with the divine. (one of the reasons for the supplanting of this self-designation by the Christian church. Goths at the time of F. Splitsky were not popular, it was synonymous with a barbarian and a heretic). The Goths, who brought the light of civilization to the most remote corners of Eurasia and shaped the appearance of Europe, as it remained until the beginning of the XNUMXth century and partly remains today. The Goths, whose mission is to be a beacon, a reference point for humanity and to lead nations. No, this is not suitable for those who were going to be used as sepoys against their opponents on the continent. Otherwise, wake up and remember who they really are. Only dugouts in the middle of the Pripyat bogs (square land), only "Slavs", only tales about "eternally hostile Teutons" and "Russia is not Europe"
                    1. Jünger
                      Jünger 23 December 2020 11: 15
                      +1
                      Quote: Force Multiplier
                      But still think, why did the doctor become a doctor, who awarded the degree?

                      When you come to the doctor for treatment, do you also ask him such questions and start a discussion on his qualifications?
                      Or do you think it is possible to have a certain degree of trust in other people's titles and merit?
                      Or are all doctors lying by definition and you don't go to them?
                      Quote: Force Multiplier
                      What the sources say is crucial. There are no others.

                      It is important, but it is necessary to take a variety of sources, conduct a comparative analysis, and find common ground. Question everything that is not confirmed by other sources. Make sure the sources being compared are independent.
                      Archeology is also a source and must be taken into account. If there are extremely few sources, then it is better to reject all of them altogether than to state revolutionary things that Croats are Goths or Martians.
                      Have you done all the work listed? I strongly doubt it. After all, you have assumptions laughing And the doctor did it.
                      1. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 23 December 2020 13: 40
                        0
                        And who told you that the doctor did this work? If he clearly ignored all the sources? An academic degree is not an indicator of the qualifications of a specialist, it's not about that at all. A doctorate diploma only means that a person has the right to occupy certain positions in the state system of science and education.
                        There are many sources. There are more than enough of them. It's just that they all contradict what "is taught in school", including in "higher". Because the function of the education system is not at all to provide knowledge. Croatians are Goths, and there is no revolution, sensation and disruption of the veil in this, everything has been published long ago. The only question is, do you want to know this, or do you prefer to "reject everything altogether" and delegate your right to know to a doctor appointed by the state, who is essentially just an official, in order to decide for you what you need to know and what you need reject
                      2. Jünger
                        Jünger 23 December 2020 14: 05
                        +2
                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        And who told you that the doctor did this work?

                        Who told you that the ophthalmologist studied the structure of the eye? This kind of implies his diploma and position in the hospital.
                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        There are many sources. There are more than enough of them.

                        There are few written sources deserving respect, and the older the less. And you have to involve archeology and linguistics.
                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        Croats are Goths

                        On what basis? According to the Chronicle of Priest Duklyanin?
                        For example, based on the "Tale of Bygone Years" Princess Olga, when she gave birth to Svyatoslav was already over 50 years old. And when she was baptized, she was "young and good," but she was over 70 and the emperor wanted to marry her. Can you believe it? No.
                        I have already mentioned about Ivan the Terrible and his origin from Caesar.
                        You cannot believe everything indiscriminately. We need a critical approach, which you seem to have only in relation to "official" science.
                      3. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 23 December 2020 18: 09
                        0
                        So the diploma din does not imply this, that's the point. His diploma means that he can apply for certain positions, and that's it. He may or may not be a good specialist.
                        Archeology and linguistics do not contradict priest Duklyanin. Yes, archaeological data can be interpreted depending on ideological attitudes, as Academician Rybakov did. And in which case, to interpret absolutely any architectural culture as polyethnic (which is understandable by default, but the point is not in this, but in what ethnos was the main driving force of society)
                        These chronicles about Olga, or rather, their incompleteness, is not a reason to deny her or Svyatoslav's existence and their ethnicity.
                        Ivan IV - everything is correct, that "from Prus", absolutely corresponds to the information of sources about "where the Russian land came from". About Caesar - yes, he justified the right to power, obviously. Only now, neither for the priest Duklyanin nor for Thomas Splitsky, as for the ministers of the church, the Gothic origin of the Croats was not and could not be honorary (Goths are Arians, heretics)
                      4. Jünger
                        Jünger 23 December 2020 22: 18
                        +1
                        Kindergarten sad The diploma of a historian implies that a person at least knows some ancient languages ​​and knows how to work with documents and sources.
                        I would not be surprised if you do not really know Church Slavonic either.
                        There is no PhD diploma - it is an academic degree that implies expanded knowledge in comparison with an ordinary specialist.
                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        Archeology and linguistics do not contradict priest Duklyanin

                        What sources did this priest use, writing a thousand years after the last Sarmatian disappeared? Have you asked yourself this question? Or are you only interested in Alekseev's sources?
                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        These chronicles about Olga, or rather, their incompleteness, is not a reason to deny her or Svyatoslav's existence and their ethnicity

                        Their existence cannot be denied just because they are cross-referenced in independent Byzantine, Russian and Western European sources. And only because of this.
                        It is also impossible to deny the existence of Oleg, as he is vaguely mentioned by other sources. But Rurik is a mythical person, since, apart from PVL, almost no one knows him.
                        And about ethnicity - it's generally laughter. Can't deny her laughing Who else would have known this belonging ..
                      5. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 23 December 2020 23: 19
                        0
                        There is a diploma of both a candidate and a doctor. You are apparently very far from the topic. As well as your ideas about what a diploma of a historian is.
                        Duklyanin did not write about the Sarmats. But you learned about him from me, so you hardly had time to read it, even if you were really interested in his work. Duklyanin wrote about the Goths. And besides him, at least Orosius, Zosimus, Jordanes wrote about the Goths in Illyricum (and, apparently, Cassiodorus, the work has not survived).
                        Sarmatians still exist - Serbs, Cossacks, etc. Ethnicity, unlike nationality, is not a social construct and artificial identity. Ethnicity is an objective reality that cannot be overcome with a "correct" ideology. (The relationship between Serbs and Croats is a vivid example. The Sarmatians are not complementary with the Germans, a cat with a dog)
                        Rurik is Rorik of Jutland, documented much better than the same Oleg. And the ethnicity of the Russian princes is reported by the PVL, for example. It's just that Rurik and ethnicity of Russia is not history. This is politics. Present and future. Hence the reluctance of officials to admit the obvious
                      6. Jünger
                        Jünger 23 December 2020 23: 47
                        0
                        Rerik of Jutland is, of course, documented, but the catch is that there is not a single proof that he is the desired Rurik. And it probably never will.
                        And the ethnicity of the PVL, of course, reports, but only no one knows what kind of affiliation it is. And then the fitting and stretching begins - as you like. To whom the Cossacks - the Goths, to whom the Rus - the Normans.
                        I am ending with this nonsense, excuse me, because nothing valuable can be learned from a conversation with you.
                        It's hard to argue with believers, I myself am a believer. ))
                      7. gsev
                        gsev 1 January 2021 06: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        And the ethnicity of the Russian princes is reported by the PVL, for example.

                        There are seven versions of the origin of the Russian state. Norman is more believable, but not the only one.
  • Bagatur
    Bagatur 22 December 2020 20: 58
    +2
    Serbi-Sarmati ??? Great ...
    1. Force multiplier
      Force multiplier 22 December 2020 23: 36
      -1
      It's like that. See the discussion thread above
  • gsev
    gsev 1 January 2021 06: 51
    0
    Quote: Force Multiplier
    A people ethnically close to the same Cossacks

    Cossacks are a military class, not a people. For example, there were Bashkir Cossacks. For example, the Polish nobility ranked themselves among the Sarmatians, and they called the serfs cattle. It is unhistorical now to talk about two peoples in modern Poland. Tales about the Cossacks as a separate nation were invented in the late 1920s by German revanchists on the eve of a new "Onslaught to the East".
  • vladcub
    vladcub 22 December 2020 17: 54
    0
    "They shot Panvits" Actually, according to the verdict of the tribunal, they have fun, but shooting and hanging is not a big deal, but the difference.
  • pytar
    pytar 22 December 2020 14: 44
    +3
    In the occupation of Yugoslavia (as well as Greece), the Bulgarian troops took part - 5 divisions, the maximum number of which was 33 people. During this time, the Bulgarians lost 635 people killed, but they themselves killed 697 partisans of Tito's army and Chetniks. The exact number of civilians killed has not yet been counted, but it was very high. ... However, it should still be said that Bulgaria was the only ally of Germany, on whose territory partisans operated. True, they mostly fought with the Bulgarians too - gendarmes, police, and sometimes, defending themselves, they fought with army units.

    The communist partisan movement in Bulgaria itself was incomparably more active than in the so-called. "occupied territories" Macedonia.
    For comparison: On the territory of the Kingdom of Bulgaria / without annexed territories / from 1941-1944 the police and gendarmerie arrested 64 354 people. 12 killed and 461 sentenced to heavy-regime prison terms. The military courts alone sentenced 7324 soldiers and officers to death, and 1570 more to heavy-regime prison terms. The killed accomplices of the partisans and their relatives were 1133 10. Interned 930 31. 250 The houses of partisans and accomplices were killed.
    The population of Macedonia by 41 is 1 people. ... According to the author bulg. army killed in the "occupied areas" 4782 partisan, but here it is necessary to clarify that the partisans and Chetniks were Serbs and Croats. "Macedonians" among them are a couple of dozen! But even if we take the whole figure, it turns out that only 0,05% of the total population were killed partisans!
    During that period 24 961 partisans killed in Bulgaria and accomplices. With a population of 5 people. this is 500% of the total population!
    The obviousness of the figures leaves no doubt that for the local population of the "occupied regions" the Bulgarian army was a LIBERATOR! The titular partisans had no support among the local population!

    Of the 223 Bulgarian political emigrants who fought in the Red Army, 151 were killed.

    After the inclusion of Bulgaria in the anti-fascist coalition from 09-09-1944, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Bulgarian armies with a total number of half a million soldiers took part in the war against Germany. 2nd and 3rd cut the path with a staggering 200 thousand. Wehrmacht groupings from Greece. 1-BGA was part of the 3-Ukrainian front of Marshal Tolbukhin and reached Alpakh / Kragenfurt / from the battles. The 4th Army did not take part in the hostilities, but provided the southern flank of the Red Army, from the Turkish side. As a result of the battles with the Bulgarians, the Wehrmacht lost approx. 80 thous. soldier / + 200 thousand. in captivity / and many military equipment. The Bulgarian army, however, lost 32 thousand. killed and wounded. In the orders of the High Command of the Soviet Army, the victories of the Bulgarian army were marked 3 times with salutes over the Kremlin! At the Victory Parade on Red Square in the ranks of the commanders of the 3-UKF, marching and the commander-in-chief of the 1-BGA, Gen. Stoichev!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 December 2020 18: 24
      +2
      Quote: pytar
      After the inclusion of Bulgaria in the anti-fascist coalition from 09-09-1944, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Bulgarian armies with a total number of half a million soldiers took part in the war against Germany.

      EMNIP, the only allies of Germany who did not have time to fight against her were the Hungarians. All the rest in 1944 changed their shoes in a jump, turning from fascist hirelings в allies in the anti-Hitler coalition.
      1. pytar
        pytar 22 December 2020 21: 10
        0
        EMNIP, the only allies of Germany who did not have time to fight against her were the Hungarians. All the rest in 1944 changed their shoes in a jump, turning from fascist mercenaries into allies in the anti-Hitler coalition.

        EMNIP, the only of Germany's allies who did not have time to fight against the USSR were the Bulgarians. All the rest fought ... By the way, the allies of Germany should be written, oddly enough, and .... Russian! Since ROA and so on. collaborationist formations of the former citizens of the USSR were the most numerous / more than 1,4 million! /! None of Germany's allies sent to Vost. the front has as many soldiers and accomplices as the USSR gave it ... yes
        1. gsev
          gsev 2 January 2021 02: 31
          0
          Quote: pytar
          None of Germany's allies sent to Vost. the front has as many soldiers and accomplices as the USSR gave it ...

          Your truth. But! Likewise, not a single enemy of Germany killed as many German soldiers and their accomplices as the Red Army.
          1. pytar
            pytar 2 January 2021 12: 26
            0
            Your truth.

            Truths are different! And I speak the Truth!
            Likewise, not a single enemy of Germany killed as many German soldiers and their accomplices as the Red Army.

            Nobody argues! And there is! I just mentioned the fact that the colaborationists from the USSR were 10 times more than their counterparts from Bulgaria.
            1. gsev
              gsev 3 January 2021 04: 06
              0
              Quote: pytar
              that the colaborationists from the USSR were 10 times more than their counterparts from Bulgaria.

              Until September 1944 Bulgaria was Hitler's ally. That is, all the power of the state made the Bulgarian people work and fight for Hitler. By 1944, and in the USSR, former policemen tried to break with the Germans. For example, the units of the Crimean Tatars in the first years, famous for their cruelty towards partisans, encircled people, just the Slavic population in the last months of the occupation of Crimea, fought against the Germans and very skillfully. They destroyed much more Germans than the partisans of Bulgaria until September 1944.
              1. pytar
                pytar 3 January 2021 13: 19
                0
                Until September 1944 Bulgaria was Hitler's ally. That is, all the power of the state made the Bulgarian people work and fight for Hitler.

                But she did not fight against the USSR! But since September 44, she fought against the Wehrmacht, eliminating almost 280 thousand. Germans. ! According to your "logic" the USSR from 23.08.1939/22.06.1941/09.09.1944 to 700/XNUMX/XNUMX was also an accomplice of Germany! If you say that the USSR at that time was solving its geopolitical goals, then Bulgaria did so too! You can, but we can not? By the way, for comparison, after XNUMX, there were only XNUMX collaborators among the Bulgarians who went over to the side of the Germans, and the Soviet collaborators fought in thousands to the end of the war. The last of them were also finished off by the Bulgarian army in Croatia.
                They killed many more Germans than the Bulgarian partisans until September 1944.

                The scales in view of the size of territories and population, of course, are not comparable. Here I will note that in Bulgaria the Germans behaved quite decently, they were not noticed in any excesses. In fact, a civil war was going on in Bulgaria between the leftists and the monarchists. The war, which has been going on permanently since 23 years.
                1. gsev
                  gsev 5 January 2021 16: 49
                  0
                  Quote: pytar
                  According to your "logic" the USSR from 23.08.1939/22.06.1941/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX was also an accomplice of Germany!

                  In the USSR and Russia, there have always been opponents and critics of the non-aggression pact. Read for example the memoirs of Ehrenburg. They can be found for free under the link militera library. My history teacher in a Soviet school could not forgive Stalin for his refusal to attack Poland and Germany at the time of the partition of Poland, and 5 times in history lessons touched upon this topic. I am not a supporter of the incorrectness of the 1939 treaty, but I admit this point of view from many opponents.
    2. gsev
      gsev 1 January 2021 07: 07
      0
      Quote: pytar
      The obviousness of the figures leaves no doubt that for the local population of the "occupied regions" the Bulgarian army was a LIBERATOR! The titular partisans had no support among the local population!

      In Bulgaria all repressions were carried out by Bulgarians, in Yugoslavia, in addition to Bulgarians, local traitors, Bulgarians and Germans. In the USSR, the Germans also mainly used local traitors and SS Sonderkommando for mass killings, and not parts of the Wehrmacht. Hitler protected the vulnerable soul of a German soldier from such dirty work. On this basis, neither the Wehrmacht, nor Hitler, nor the Bulgarian government and its army can be justified. As soon as the Wehrmacht was faced with inevitable defeat, so Himler, according to Shelenberg's recollections, became a zealous savior of the Jews. With the Bulgarian political and military leadership, a similar transformation took place earlier, so they avoided the gallows.
      1. pytar
        pytar 1 January 2021 13: 33
        +1
        On this basis, neither the Wehrmacht, nor Hitler, nor the Bulgarian government and its army can be justified.

        In the 39th USSR under an agreement with Germany, regained the territory of Zap. Belarus and West. Ukraine, and a little earlier and the Baltic states, which were taken away in WWI. On these territories, the USSR carried out purges over its opponents.
        In the 41st Bulgaria under an agreement with Germany, regained the territory of Macedonia that had been taken away in PMV / 2BV. The Bulgarian authorities drove their opponents to these territories. In truth, there were very few of them.
        There is no fundamental difference!
        1. gsev
          gsev 2 January 2021 02: 09
          0
          Quote: pytar
          There is no fundamental difference!

          There is also a fundamental difference. After the war, the Bulgarians left Macedonia and now Macedonia seeks to preserve its freedom from Bulgaria. And Vilensky Krai, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus are striving to preserve their freedom from Poland. That is, the expulsion of the Polish state from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine met the aspirations of the majority of the inhabitants of those places.
          1. pytar
            pytar 2 January 2021 12: 24
            +1
            After the war, the Bulgarians left Macedonia and now Macedonia seeks to preserve its freedom from Bulgaria.

            They left, because the situation was like that then! And there were no "Macedonists"! My grandfather is from Bitol! Macedonists were raised by Tito in half a century! Janissaries who do not remember their origin and relationship! Balkan hide! One to one! Sooner or later they will come to their senses! Macedonia is Bulgaria!
            And Vilensky Krai, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus are striving to preserve their freedom from Poland.

            Then from Poland, but what about? Ukraine left Russia, the situation with Belarus is also precarious ...
  • Cure72
    Cure72 22 December 2020 15: 35
    0
    Yes ..... The Balkans are still a boiling boiler.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 22 December 2020 16: 29
    +1
    "The concept of" great Serbia "was gaining popularity EVERYWHERE, where a similar concept appears, expect trouble.
    "Great-power chauvinism" is an extreme form of nationalism of representatives of ruling nations "(TSB)
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 22 December 2020 16: 38
      +3
      EVERYWHERE such a concept appears, expect trouble.

      Vera, have you ever thought that this often becomes a national idea for a small young country - to grab more space for itself before the neighbors come to their senses? what Poland and Finland in the 1920s thought the same! request
      I am not justifying anyone at all ... It's just that the laws of history sometimes converge strangely ... what
  • vladcub
    vladcub 22 December 2020 17: 48
    +1
    "The problems began when politicians with theories of" racial superiority "Valeriy got into relations between ordinary people, it is always like this: politicians don't care about the interests of the people. The main thing for them is to satisfy their wishes. Ukrainians, no offense, I use as taught at school) and in the former Yugoslavia
  • vladcub
    vladcub 22 December 2020 18: 21
    0
    Valery, for accuracy: the ataman Krasnov did not obey Panvits. General Panvits was formally on an equal footing with Shkuro or Sultan Klych Girey, but in reality he is "Aryan" and means more confidence in him
    1. gsev
      gsev 1 January 2021 07: 12
      0
      Quote: vladcub
      for accuracy: the ataman Krasnov did not obey Panvitsu. General Panvits was formally on an equal footing with Shkuro or Sultan Klych Giray

      Formally, Hetman Skoropadsky was the supreme ruler of Ukraine, but any German lieutenant of the occupation forces could cancel his decree or order. Likewise, Shkuro and Krasnova Sultan Giray in case of betrayal of the oath to Hitler could be shot or tortured by a simple Gestapo or military counterintelligence officer.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 1 January 2021 07: 49
        +2
        Abysmal. But that's life. Shkuro, Sultan Klych Girey, Krasnov were hanged, and many officers of the Gestapo and Abwehr lived and prospered.
        There are many examples: Gehlen and his organization, Klaus Barbier, Krasnodar talked about one former Gestapo, he created a security service in Syria, and in Europe he would have been hanged. And there are many such examples
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 22 December 2020 20: 18
    0
    "the" appetites "of the nationalist leaders of the Croats" did not satisfy "was a completely natural phenomenon: the appetite came with eating. If they were told that greed heals the grave. They would have behaved differently. It seems so to me
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 22 December 2020 21: 58
    +1
    The article is, of course, "galloping across Europe", and the comments are just fire