There will be no union of MiG and Sukhoi design bureaus

Although the MiG and Sukhoi companies entered the combat division aviation, the design bureaus of Sukhoi and Mikoyan and Gurevich are not planned to be combined. About this in an interview with RIA News said the CEO of Sukhoi Ilya Tarasenko.

According to him, the entry of companies into one combat aviation division will help develop the potential of both design bureaus, but there will be no unification. Each design bureau will preserve its school, identity and uniqueness, developing new projects for light and heavy aviation systems.

We do not plan to combine the KB. The engineering schools of MiG and Sukhoi remain and continue to develop within each design bureau. (...) joint development, technology transfer and other processes are planned as part of the strategy being formed

- said Tarasenko.

At the same time, he noted, the centralization of the management of the combat aviation division continues, within the framework of which, from June 2020, the functions of the sole executive body of MiG Corporation were transferred to the Sukhoi company.

The new structure will combine the design and production potentials of the two enterprises and will be responsible for the development, production and maintenance of the entire line of current and promising UAC combat aircraft

- added Tarasenko.

Comments

[Labrador]

remain and continue to develop within each design bureau

And rightly so!

[NEOZ]

Quote: Labrador

And rightly so!

scattering of forces and means ... let's see the result ...

[APASUS]

Quote: NEOZ

scattering of forces and means ... let's see the result ...

Not all airplanes have to do one enterprise. Moreover, machines for different purposes.

[NEOZ]

Quote: APASUS

Not all aircraft must be made by one enterprise.

justify

Quote: APASUS

Especially cars for different purposes

so different that MiG29 / 35 doesn’t need our MO, right?

[APASUS]

Quote: NEOZ

Quote: APASUS

Not all aircraft must be made by one enterprise.

justify

Quote: APASUS

Especially cars for different purposes

so different that MiG29 / 35 doesn’t need our MO, right?

What to justify, competition, technology development, approach to problem solving?
Our Defense Ministry needs a MiG29 / 35. But it was the approach of Director Sukhoi Poghosyan that led to the fact that we have 90% of heavy fighters in the Defense Ministry.

[NEOZ]

Quote: APASUS

What to justify, competition, technology development, approach to problem solving?

justify this !!!

Quote: APASUS

MiG29 / 35 our MO needs

What for?

[APASUS]

Quote: NEOZ

justify this !!!

Read the story of the creation of the OLS for the Su-27, this example is very revealing

Quote: NEOZ

What for?

Escort of columns, cover of small objects - is this not enough?

[NEOZ]

Quote: APASUS

Escort of columns, cover of small objects - is this not enough?

what is the need for fighters in our Defense Ministry? what% should the MiG35 be?
if the development and production of this number of blinks costs 3 times more than to buy with this money (SU30 / 34/35) .... the question is: why is this necessary ???

[APASUS]

Quote: NEOZ

what is the need for fighters in our Defense Ministry? what% should the MiG35 be?
if the development and production of this number of blinks costs 3 times more than to buy with this money (SU30 / 34/35) .... the question is: why is this necessary ???

The Ministry of Defense needs approximately 50/50 in light and heavy fighters. Su is much more expensive to use and is designed for the girth of the territory, Mig is just under the force of escorting and protecting a small object

[1976AG]

Quote: NEOZ

Quote: Labrador

And rightly so!

scattering of forces and means ... let's see the result ...

Why watch? MiG-15, MiG-25, Su-27, Su-35, MiG-31 .. Is this not enough?

[orionvitt]

Quote: NEOZ

dispersion of forces and means ....

This is not a scattering of funds, this is healthy competition. Suffice it to recall the competitive struggle of the Soviet design bureaus, as a result of which new models of aviation technology were issued literally "to the mountain". And of excellent quality, some of our foreign "partners" are still flying, too. True, times were different, and they did not skimp on funds, and people were not the same.

[wowka]

Quote: orionvitt

True, the times were different, and they did not skimp on the means, and the people were not the same.

And this is the whole philosophy! The rest is romance

[NEOZ]

Quote: orionvitt

This is not a spray, it is a healthy competition.

and if two KB do not show the result?
and if the united design bureau would show the result, then what would it be called?

Quote: orionvitt

Suffice it to recall the competition of the Soviet design bureaus

The USSR could afford it (the Russian Federation in human resources is 50% of the USSR)

Quote: orionvitt

Truth and times were different

that's it!!!!

Quote: orionvitt

and did not skimp on funds

that's it!!!

Quote: orionvitt

and the people were not the same.

just in the USSR there were 2 times more !!!!

[orionvitt]

Quote: NEOZ

and if two KB do not show
and if the unified design bureau would show

If, if only, this is not a conversation, this is a fortuneteller

The Russian Federation for human resources is 50% of the USSR)

So what? You might think that the Uzbeks with the Kazakhs and other Turkmens were engaged in the design and creation of aircraft? In Ukraine, they created something, but now there is massive psychosis, so all that was basically remained in Russia. But the former potential is lost, I agree.

[NEOZ]

Quote: orionvitt

If, if only, this is not a conversation, this is a fortuneteller

so you guess !!! you cannot justify your position !!!

Quote: orionvitt

You might think that the Uzbeks with the Kazakhs and other Turkmens were engaged in the design and creation of aircraft?

sure!!! Uzbeks and Kazakhs occupied their production niche for the exploitation of human resources for the design of aircraft !!!

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: NEOZ

scattering of forces and means ... let's see the result ...

The first thing that the coach of the boys who first came to the gym teaches is that winning with one blow is impossible. Having put all your strength and all your hopes into a single blow - you will miss and you will be defeated in the end. Always keep in mind the fallback options. Betting on a single horse is the opposite of excessive power dissipation.

[wowka]

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

Betting on a single horse is the opposite of excessive power dissipation.

And if there is no money for other horses? And they are not planned for full-fledged projects for all "horses". So Se la vie .. It remains not to "play" at all, otherwise "half measures" come out - sometimes under-stealth, then under-drone .. and so on in everything. No? Well, that's how I see it.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Wowka

And if there is no money for other horses?

Especially if there is no money. A monopolist is always more expensive. If you want to save money, maintain competition among suppliers. This is the alphabet.
But there is money, sort of. Bankers were given 3 trillion with a light hand from the fund, and they are glad to try and still ask.

[NEOZ]

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

But there is money, sort of.

money meant resources (material / technical / human / know-how).

[NEOZ]

Quote: Wowka

"half measures" come out - either under-stealth, or under-drone .. and so on in everything. No? Well, that's how I see it.

I’m talking about this!

[NEOZ]

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

The first thing that the coach of the boys who first came to the gym teaches is that winning with one blow is impossible.

how many professions do you have?

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

Having put all your strength and all your hopes into a single blow - you will miss and you will be defeated in the end.

those. a person who studied for a doctor, and an engineer, and professionally involved in sports will not lose the competition with people who have devoted themselves to only one profession?

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

Always keep in mind the fallback options.

I won’t become a doctor so I’ll become a boxer?

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

Betting on a single horse - extreme opposite to excessive power dissipation

just the only horse ....

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: NEOZ

how many professions do you have?

Two. One military account, one civilian.

Quote: NEOZ

those. a person who studied for a doctor, and an engineer, and professionally involved in sports will not lose the competition with people who have devoted themselves to only one profession?

And who says that aircraft engineers need to learn additional professions? In your analogy with doctors, it’s wiser to imagine that in your region you left only one hospital at all.

Quote: NEOZ

I won’t become a doctor so I’ll become a boxer?

In our time, several applicants immediately submitted documents to several universities. I won’t go there - at least I will study there.

Quote: NEOZ

the only horse

Not yet. But soon from two - one will be gathered, to a campaign. Then they will wonder why it turned out inanimate.

[NEOZ]

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

And who says that aircraft engineers need to master additional professions?

development and production of aircraft is a collective work of many designers and engineers - the more complex the aircraft (the next generation), the more (almost geometric progression) science-intensive labor is needed !!!!
accordingly, to develop a new aircraft it is simply necessary to combine scientific resources !!!!! especially since after the collapse of the USSR these resources are extremely limited !!!!!

[iouris]

Remaining is one thing, developing is another. What is your evidence?

[NEOZ]

Quote: iouris

Remaining is one thing, developing is another. What is your evidence?

agree

[Eldorado]

Right! No need to dump KB in one heap!

[iouris]

It is impossible to "lump it in a pile" while planes under the MiG and Su trademarks are flying somewhere in the world.

[Eug]

We need a competition between the developments on the same technical design for the two design bureaus. And may the best project win. But the phrase about the unification of "design potentials" is embarrassing - isn't it in order to reduce the number of designers?

[Starover_Z]

Quote: Eug

But the phrase about the unification of "design potentials" is embarrassing - isn't it in order to reduce the number of designers?

If there is such a "high opinion", then where did his "legs grow" interesting and who submitted such a "valuable" idea ?!

[PavelM]

Quote: Starover_Z

If there is such a "high opinion", then where did his "legs grow" interesting and who submitted such a "valuable" idea ?!

There is only one "reformer" capable of such "ideas" - this is the one with the high trust of the President and, therefore, unsinkable, A.E. Serdyukov.
What are the other opinions?

[NEOZ]

Quote: Starover_Z

If there is such a "high opinion", then where did his "legs grow" interesting and who submitted such a "valuable" idea ?!

Do you have any relation to projects?

[K-612-O]

Sukhoi can’t make light fighters, like MiG bombers. Schools are completely different, so nothing will happen with a single TTZ. MiG will work with PAK DP for a long time.

[Cyril G ...]

The projects were more adequate than the MiG-29. I'm talking about Su-37 (first), S-54/55/56 was also extremely interesting

[Boris Chernikov]

they weren’t interesting .. but there were attempts to mold at least something. They don’t have to climb each other .. Have their beds, let them mess around: MiGs are engaged in light fighters and interceptors, and Dry ones are played in heavy fighters and bombers. To each his own, otherwise we will have rout and bacchanalia

[1976AG]

And what are their beds? MiG-25 and MiG-31 are light fighters? This Sukhoi did only heavy, and MiG did all sorts.

[Boris Chernikov]

and what interceptors did Sukhoi do?

[Herman 4223]

Schools are different and therefore the result is not predictable. It may be more expensive to develop, but the army in the end has plenty to choose from and get the best car. Who knows which competitor the T-50 would have been blinded in an instant if they were also given funds.
Maybe the drying was even banned in the end and another plane would have been prepared for serial production. Well, a number of technical discoveries as a bonus.

[Boris Chernikov]

Well, in general, there were rumors that the MiG is now quietly sawing its 5th generation fighter, which should be simpler, but much cheaper than Drying, because there are many countries that want the 5th generation, but they are strained with money ... Therefore, I think they will take the MiG-35 and make it "stealth"

[Herman 4223]

They themselves can cut for a long time, there is no clear state program for a light fighter. It makes no sense to make stealth out of the MiG-35, if you make the internal compartments of the plane swell in size and the car loses its flight characteristics and becomes more difficult, the compartments themselves, even if they are made in a light fighter, will be small, because there is no room, the car must be small and light , if the compartments are not made, then it will add stealth but little. The next question is with the engine, in the Su-57 the new engine has a variable bypass ratio, which makes it very efficient. A similar one is now being developed for the American F-35, it is called an adaptive engine and will have to greatly increase the flight characteristics of the machine.
For a moment, there is nothing in this regard and is not created.

[iouris]

Quote: K-612-O

Schools are completely different

Schools are different, but the software for the design process is the same (state-owned).

[NEOZ]

Quote: K-612-O

Dry can not do light fighters

Why?
there were projects C54 / C55 / C56
MiG did MiG31 - and this is a very heavy machine.

[K-612-O]

MiG 25 was also not easy. But after the experience with the Sukhoi interceptors, frankly not very successful, they gave this niche to the MiG and did it right. Not Su-11, not Su-15 did not differ outstanding characteristics.
And the Su-7 and Su-17 were and in some places remain workhorses, but these are front-line bombers, like the Rasp.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Eug

But the phrase about the unification of "design potentials" confuses

I agree. Today we have such a thing in use - they say one thing from the screens, but do something completely different with this sauce, hiding behind words about optimization, pooling potentials, and so on.

[uav80]

C Kamov and Miles, too, probably should do so, otherwise there are rumors that they will unite ...

[dauria]

The new structure will combine the design and production potentials of the two enterprises and will be responsible for the development, production and maintenance

I didn't understand a damn thing. What is the new structure? "battalion of combat aviation" - what kind of beast? Who owns the Sukhoi and MiG Design Bureau?
What does it mean to be responsible for development and production and service staff? The MO was responsible for the service staff all his life. From the moment of departure from the factory airfield by the Air Force ferry crew. Production is a bunch of allies; the final plant that draws up the form is blown away for everyone. But not at all.
And if it is simpler - there will be something flying at the Sokol plant in Nizhny Novgorod, except for crows, or the gentlemen will fight over the "little factories for the little children". I would tell them that it will no longer be possible to simply milk the Soviet factories. Now you need to invest your loot to get the fat.

[doubovitski]

Quote: dauria

The new structure will combine the design and production potentials of the two enterprises and will be responsible for the development, production and maintenance

I didn't understand a damn thing. What is the new structure? "battalion of combat aviation" - what kind of beast? Who owns the Sukhoi and MiG Design Bureau?
What does it mean to be responsible for development and production and service staff? The MO was responsible for the service staff all his life. From the moment of departure from the factory airfield by the Air Force ferry crew. Production is a bunch of allies; the final plant that draws up the form is blown away for everyone. But not at all.
And if it is simpler - there will be something flying at the Sokol plant in Nizhny Novgorod, except for crows, or the gentlemen will fight over the "little factories for the little children". I would tell them that it will no longer be possible to simply milk the Soviet factories. Now you need to invest your loot to get the fat.

Who owns the KB? But guessing yourself is not fate? Who puts them together in some structures, that owns. Second, in civil engineering, the parent enterprise is the factory. And, with it, KB. Kb can be isolated, but it has no decision to start production of its product. In aircraft engineering, on the contrary, there the plant belongs to the design bureau. And for everything from design, production, and maintenance, the design bureau is responsible.

[dauria]

In aviation engineering, on the contrary, there the plant belongs to the Design Bureau

Irkutsk, Voronezh and Tashkent riveted An-12. All these plants belonged to the Kiev design bureau? And among the bourgeoisie, a lot of factories under license produce different models of different offices.
In your scenario (the plant belongs to the design bureau), a small design bureau that created a successful model will have to buy a plant to push its plane.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: dauria

I didn't understand a damn thing. What is the new structure? "battalion of combat aviation" - what kind of beast? Who owns the Sukhoi and MiG Design Bureau?

Lagging behind life, my friend! What is there not to understand? Modern "young family"! They work ... Everyone has their own work, their own bank account ... Together they plan family expenses: who pays the communal flat, and who buys the sausage for dinner ... Someone gives another his car "for a ride, and the other pays for gasoline and repairs...

[wayden]

Only those design bureaus that are no longer capable of their own completed projects make sense. The competition of ideas must be maintained.

[doubovitski]

Quote: wayden

Only those design bureaus that are no longer capable of their own completed projects make sense. The competition of ideas must be maintained.

Such KBs need not be merged, but overclocked. "Avoska held on to Neboska, and both fell." The freeloader who wants to sit on the sidelines, receiving his modest fee, will never come to the fore. To be the first is to take risks.

[doubovitski]

The competition that was and was supported in the USSR was bearing fruit. And only a crazy enemy, preoccupied with the destruction of democratic Russia, could carry out the unification. Numerous design bureaus always succeeded in development only when they competed fiercely, sometimes cruelly.

[K-612-O]

This is for these design bureaus, as well as for helicopter pilots.
And Il, Antonov and Tupolev yes, they competed strongly

[D16]

Il, Antonov and Tupolev yes, strongly competed

In fact, there has been no competition since the 60s. Everyone scored their niches and didn’t let competitors go there. What Antonov, what Tupolev, what Ilyushin. Only Sukhoi periodically tried, but each time oxygen was blocked. But Myasishchev Design Bureau generally became a victim of rocket science.

[D16]

The competition that was and was supported in the USSR was bearing fruit.

The competition may formally exist, but it does not cancel the administrative resource of individual design bureaus and yielded very peculiar fruits in the form of a completely unhealthy zoo in the ground forces and the navy. In addition, he allowed to absorb other design bureaus together with production facilities and appropriate other people's promising developments.

[Boris Chernikov]

By the way, yes, I would unite the developers of land equipment, but it’s ridiculous that on one tank there is a machine gun remote control, and on the other there is no, because competitors do not give the right to install ...

[D16]

This is not the case. The remote control machine gun can be installed on any of the current MBTs. The only question is the price of modernization and whether the Ministry of Defense is ready to pay for it. After all, they are all undergoing modernization at UVZ.

[Boris Chernikov]

the joke is that some successful decisions are ignored due to the fact that different design bureaus are friends and enemies

[D16]

Maybe ignored, I don’t know. But Doo machine gun is put everywhere and there are no restrictions. It's all about the ticket price I'm not talking about machine guns, but about three! main tanks of the late USSR Two fighters, one of which did not match those. assignment. Nevertheless, it was adopted. I mean, that no one and never in the armed forces of this country could lead the breeders to standardization and uniformity. Understand,. that everyone lacked the right engines, it was impossible to pull out a steel nuclear submarine from Gorky and had to build goldfish ahead of the rest of the planet, But why such delights for a policy of nuclear deterrence

[Boris Chernikov]

but what is wrong with several types? there, the Americans have since "we have one car" .. in fact, the whole design idea has died

[D16]

and what is wrong with several types?

Primarily the cost of maintenance and lack of unification.

.in fact, all design thought has died

She began to die with them after becoming a nation of lawyers. The unification of tanks has nothing to do with it.

[Boris Chernikov]

it's funny to read about the "cost of service" .. the cost of service makes sense in the presence of single samples or units with several types of equipment in service, and when we have 500-1000 units of each type and they are territorially and structurally separated, then there are problems with the "cost" - no. And yes .. T-72b3m and T-80bvm are much more unified among themselves than similar t-72 and t-80 at the time

[silverwolf88]

A mature decision was unexpectedly made ... not quite typical for effective management

[avia12005]

We read carefully: "The centralization of control over the combat aviation division continues, within the framework of which, since June 2020, the functions of the sole executive body of the MiG Corporation have been transferred to the Sukhoi company.... So, after all, they were united in one division? And the main one is "Dry".

[jaroff]

Tarasenko changes the whole management team in Sukhoi. Drags from Mikoyan.

[avia12005]

Considering that the chairman of the board of directors of UAC is Serdyukov, I have great doubts about the success of this plan. Switch all cash flows to one place, that's for sure. But about airplanes this is a big question.

[Svarog]

Definitely the right decision.

[Doccor18]

There will be no union of MiG and Sukhoi design bureaus

So that's great.
Firstly, sound competition is needed everywhere.
Secondly, the MIG in the 80-90s was at such a height that Sukhoi could "bury" him. Only the disintegration of the Great Country and "perestroika" ruined the plans and destroyed many serious MIG projects.
But I'm still for the competition. Let there be SU and MIG, and YAK, and IL, and TU, and BE.

[Pavel57]

At one time, Poghosyan almost strangled the MIL, so the question is purely at the level of the "ministry".

[Eug]

We need maximum unification of machines of different design bureaus - in terms of equipment, cabin, engines, etc. But there is no need to unite design bureaus - we need intense (but healthy, not lobbying) competition. And it's the same with helicopter design bureaus.

[RUSLAN]

I understand that instead of uniting, in which the apparatus of officials could be halved, they created another structure, thereby increasing the parasites?

[Elephant]

Good news. Let there be healthy competition for design bureaus as the engine of progress.

[Alf]

Although the MiG and Sukhoi companies entered the combat aviation division, the Sukhoi and Mikoyan and Gurevich design bureaus are not planned to be merged.

And why then fence the garden? To attach the kids?

[bars1]

Quote: avia12005

So, after all, they were united in one division? And the main one is Sukhoi.

That's it!

[bars1]

Quote: silberwolf88

A mature decision was unexpectedly made ... not quite typical for effective management

As expected, the MiG will be led by Sukhoi.