Polish Su-22 fighters still fly: exclusive rights to repair AL-21F3 declared

The Polish military announced the completion of negotiations and the conclusion of an agreement providing for a major overhaul aviation AL-21F3 engines equipped with Su-22 fighters, which are still in service with the country's Air Force.

The company Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA, specializing in the repair of aircraft, was chosen as the contractor, since, according to the customer, she is the sole owner of the technical documentation for these engines, which gives this company exclusive rights to work with AL-21F3.

The amount of the contract is $ 3,04 million. In total, 18 Su-22s are planned to be brought back to life. They plan to operate their Polish Air Force until the exhaustion of the resource, which was extended in 2014. Airplanes still fly, despite the Polish desire to acquire new American-made fighters.

These aircraft have very low combat value, but they are intensively used, for example, in training JTAC operators [leading combat aircraft from the front line] or radar station calculations

- The Defense24 edition writes, commenting on the decision to return the Su-22 to flight condition.

For our part, we note that questions are raised by statements about the exclusive rights of the Polish company WZL No. 2 to the AL-21F3 engine. This power plant was developed in the Soviet OKB-165 on the basis of AL-21F, differing from it in increased traction and improved characteristics.

Comments

[Pvi1206]

deja vu ... why not replace it with American equipment? ... gas was replaced with American? ...

[The leader of the Redskins]

It’s hard to imagine the Su 22 as a combat unit in the event of a conflict on a European theater ... As a participant in an air show, it’s still gone where.

[bayard]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

It is difficult to imagine the Su 22 as a combat unit in the event of a conflict on a European theater of operations.

And A-10?
Not hard ?
And they are being capitalized, modernized ...
Su-17 \ Su-22 is a Soviet-class fighter-bomber. Perfect for assault strikes, low altitude attacks and bombing with cabriolet. The pilots loved them very much and reluctantly retrained on the Su-24. Reliable, easy to maintain and combat use. Combat capabilities can be enhanced with hanging containers.
In addition, they are very fast.

[The leader of the Redskins]

You have a strange comment.
If we compare the number of upgrades, then B52 is indisputably in the first place.
With a "warthog" - generally not correct. Absolutely not the same class of aircraft.
Well, if with classmates, then I don't even remember whether the "jaguar" and "tornado" are still in service or not.
Of course, if you mean maintainability ... That may be right.

[bayard]

Why is it strange? As an weapons platform, he is no worse than any classmate, and presenting his combat work in a modern conflict will not be a stretch. This is a strike plane and partly a battlefield plane, and perhaps older than the Warthog.
The drummer does not conduct an air battle. The sighting and navigation system can be upgraded or a hanging container can be used. And he does not take speed, maintainability and ease of use. Therefore, all the owners keep it in service until the resource is exhausted. As a rule - until complete exhaustion.

[avg]

Quote: bayard

And they are being capitalized, modernized ...

The Su-22 is being modernized, the Mi-2 is being modernized, the T-72 and BMP-1 are trying to be modernized. And where is the "Proud Polish Genius", is it really all busy cleaning the British sorting?

[Antokha]

I confirm. I personally know pilots who responded very well to the Su-17 / Su-22 and Kayre. I know one of its designers. This is a front-line bomber, not a fighter, and he performed his tasks perfectly. These tasks are not out of date even now, and weapons could easily be updated, including high precision. They wrote off planes early because of Yeltsin.

[ancient]

Quote: Anton

which responded very well to the Su-17 / Su-22 and Kayre.

If I completely agree with the first, then with the second ... where on the Su-17s .. "Kaira" (there was a Background, there was a Maple), and Kaira was only "planned" on the Su-17M4, but ... ... turned out to be too big

[Antokha]

Quote: ancient

and Kaira was only "planned" on the Su-17M4, but ... it turned out to be too big

That's what they said about the Su-17M4 in this connection

[Doliva63]

Quote: ancient

Quote: Anton

which responded very well to the Su-17 / Su-22 and Kayre.

If I completely agree with the first, then with the second ... where on the Su-17s .. "Kaira" (there was a Background, there was a Maple), and Kaira was only "planned" on the Su-17M4, but ... ... turned out to be too big

In the Su-17 in which district flew, if not secret?

[ancient]

Quote: Doliva63

if it `s not a secret?

Secret (General) ) in one military research institute, in one .. "semi-civilian"

[Doliva63]

Quote: ancient

Quote: Doliva63

if it `s not a secret?

Secret (General) ) in one military research institute, in one .. "semi-civilian"

In Siversky, when there were Su-17s in service, in the zone 3 of the AE there were institute planes — not yours?

[ancient]

Quote: Doliva63

Institutional aircraft were in zone 3 of the AE — not yours?

Difficult to answer, in those days I was just finishing "school" (in 1974).
But according to experience, the SRI practically never flew on "their" machines .... yes, the machines came to "tests" either from the factory or from the "system" (the regiment engineers did not like this very thing ... to give up their cars to be devoured).
Most likely there was some stage of military trials, and there is already creating a combined team of institute and local pilots who are involved in this topic. and the planes are already combatant.
In my memory, in their cars there were T-8 (across the river), on T-6M (behind the river, but based in TurkVo), and then there were "Coulomb" machines, on the T-6MP there were two "Culon", and 4 , on the T-6M (in Kopitnari, flyby of the MVK), ed.01 (in the North, range and duration) ... it seems that that's all.
How is the situation on this issue in the GLITS .... I don’t know

[Doliva63]

Quote: Anton

I confirm. I personally know pilots who responded very well to the Su-17 / Su-22 and Kayre. I know one of its designers. This is a front-line bomber, not a fighter, and he performed his tasks perfectly. These tasks are not out of date even now, and weapons could easily be updated, including high precision. They wrote off planes early because of Yeltsin.

Frontline bomber? In our regiment on the Su-17 the "architecture" was as follows: 1 AE - carriers, 2 AE - fighters and reconnaissance aircraft, 3 AE - missile and bomb suspension on the ground. And where is the "front-line bomber"?

[Antokha]

I went and looked at an article about the Su-22M3 on the Sky Corner website. There we are talking exclusively about the use of air-to-ground weapons, about the difficulties in testing these modes. It is clear that there were air-to-air missiles, but the work was done precisely on the ground. It tells about the combat use in Afghanistan, of course it was also on the ground. This makes the aircraft a frontline bomber. The main fighter at that time was probably the MiG-23 ...

[Doliva63]

Quote: Anton

I went and looked at an article about the Su-22M3 on the Sky Corner website. There we are talking exclusively about the use of air-to-ground weapons, about the difficulties in testing these modes. It is clear that there were air-to-air missiles, but the work was done precisely on the ground. It tells about the combat use in Afghanistan, of course it was also on the ground. This makes the aircraft a frontline bomber. The main fighter at that time was probably the MiG-23 ...

An article on the site is good, but life was different. And about Afghan - it's ridiculous to talk, there simply was no other work than on the ground. In fact, it was like this: all the AE regiment practiced all kinds of applications - "application", interception, air combat, work on the ground, reconnaissance. Only at night the aircraft were suspended according to the AE specialization. As you can see, only 25% of the training was done on the ground. And they even flew for reconnaissance "over the hill" - a strange occupation for a front-line bomber, don't you think? Su-17 is a fighter-bomber, that says it all, that's how it was planned to be used. And in the spring there was such an "exercise" - the regiment with its full complement strikes with special ammunition at the SETVD, and upon returning it sits on the ice, I don't remember which sea. it was believed that there would be nowhere to sit at home. The multi-faceted aircraft was

[ancient]

Quote: Anton

There we are talking exclusively about the use of air-ground weapons,

In "theory" you can use the R-60 and R-73, but in practice ... all air battles with American and Israeli fighters ended ... not in favor of the Su-22
We were told ... a fighter bomber is still not specifically a bomber .. but it’s not specifically a fighter
But for a full-fledged FBA, he lacks a radar

[orionvitt]

Quote: bayard

Great for assault strikes

Just in this they did not succeed. If the car is simple and reliable, it still does not say that it is the best. All these attempts to adapt the fighter to attack from low altitudes, and bombing with cabriolet (a very difficult maneuver), were not from a good life. Used what is. That is why they replaced the SU-24 and SU-25.

[bayard]

Quote: orionvitt

Just in this they did not succeed.

Well, who will argue with this? For this, the Su-25 and MiG-27 were developed. He was the best at the beginning of his long life ... or rather one of the best, here the rating is difficult to reduce.
But before they appeared, they were used. And not bad at all.

[VO3A]

Su-17m3 and Su-17M4 independently worked in parallel with Su-24, Su-25 and MIG-27 ... Nobody changed anyone .. Su-17 and Su-25 worked in simple weather conditions, they are not all-weather ... Su- 17 a reliable, simple aircraft, and the M4 with a digital system that was superior to the Su-25 complex ... The flight and technical personnel praised this aircraft ... The decommissioning and actually destruction of the Su-17M4 was a mistake ...

[ancient]

Quote: orionvitt

All these attempts to adapt the fighter to attack from low altitudes, and bombing with cabriolet (a very difficult maneuver), were not from a good life.

A little is not true ... all the complex types of combat use of TSA on the airplanes of IBA and FBA are caused by the appearance of more and more modern air defense and MZA means in a probable enemy, therefore the approach to PMV was motivated by the fact that the enemy had a problem with detecting an airplane, and cabling (fast angular the movement of the aircraft and the discharge range without entering the MZA application area).
In practice, it looked like this - approaching the target at an altitude of 30-40 m. At ranges to the target (where the PM is already "tied") from 1 km to 2 km (depending on the V flight history), you begin to increase the pitch angle (you perform almost a half-loop ), you clamp the BC and ... wait for the "cut" ("shooting") (at an angle of 70 to 90 degrees).
The results were .

[ancient]

Quote: bayard

Perfect for assault strikes, low altitude attacks and bombing with cabriolet. The pilots loved them very much and reluctantly retrained on the Su-24

A very "smart thing" was done on "54" -, the cone of the central air intake was made stationary, optimizing it for flight at transonic speeds.
As a result, the maximum Mach number at high altitude fell from 2,1 to 1,75, but a gain in mass was obtained due to the removal of the control system, and a significant free internal volume appeared.
And due to this, it was possible to integrate most of the REO into the aiming and navigation complex PrNK-54, based on the digital computer TsVM 20-22 “Orbit 20-22”,

It includes new near and far navigation systems:
- A-312 "Radical NP" and A-720 "Skip-2",
- ARK-22 radio compass,
- marker receiver MRP-66,
- radio altimeter RV-21 "Impulse" (A-035),
- Doppler speed and demolition meter DISS-7,
- SHS air signal system,
- inertial course vertical IKV-8,
and other equipment.
And in the cone VZ installed a modified LDK "Maple-54".
Under the fuselage of the aircraft, it was possible to suspend a BA-58 container with Blizzard equipment, which provided the launch of X-27PS, X-58U or E. anti-radar missiles.
In the later series, an IT-23M indicator appeared in the cockpit, which allowed the use of the X-29T missile with the Tubus-2 homing television head.

[bayard]

In Azerbaijan, when the Kurdamir regiment on the Su-24 was rearmed, there were so many passions - at least 7 pilots (who were suitable for their seniority) wrote their reports. And with what idiomatic expressions the aircraft mechanics expressed their "delight" ... and about the Su-17, always with love.
Deserved it.
At the same time, we had our own RTV unit at the regiment, so we communicated ...

[VO3A]

It is not important. On the Su-17M4 there was a digital sight, the parameters of which did not deteriorate over time and did not require constant adjustment, as on the M3. M4 very accurately bombed and shot ...

[akarfoxhound]

Leader, you seem to be a very "big" specialist in combat aviation

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

They wrote that the aircraft will be used for training aircraft pilots and radar calculations.

The Poles need the Su-22 as a training aircraft, and the combat ones they need are multi-purpose F-16s and, in the future, F-35s.

[white.eagle]

Su-22 is the only aircraft in Poland that uses Polish thermobaric bombs LBPP-100

[Nikolay R-PM]

Chelyabinsk 712 Arz does not have these exclusive rights or what? in general, he repaired the Al-21f-3 in any version (and a whole bunch of units), it will repair it and will repair it while the Su-24m and Su-17m types are in operation.

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Nikolay R-PM

Chelyabinsk 712 Arz does not have these exclusive rights or what?

Here, most likely, we are talking about other Polish plants over which it is Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA that has the advantage. Competitors to cut off. I doubt that the proud clearing will turn to Chelyabinsk ...

[Invoce]

Quote: Vasyan1971

Quote: Nikolay R-PM

Chelyabinsk 712 Arz does not have these exclusive rights or what?

Here, most likely, we are talking about other Polish plants over which it is Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA that has the advantage. Competitors to cut off. I doubt that the proud clearing will turn to Chelyabinsk ...

To be honest, I generally doubt the quality of the AL-21F3 repair at foreign factories ... You can repair everything! But the cost of repair will be little different from the cost of the engine, if you repair the product by purchasing special stands and mechs ... Or the quality will be the same as after the "Ukrainian" repair of the MiG-21

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Invoce

Everything can be repaired! That's just the cost of repair will not differ much from the cost of the engine, if you repair a product by purchasing special stands and fur ...

Who knows this "Troop Mortgage"? Maybe they still have this? No wonder they probably shout about their exclusiveness. In the current times of a sluggish zombie apocalypse, it is necessary to fight for denyuzhku with teeth.

[Revolver]

"Poland is a greedy hyena of Europe" Winston Churchill
For those who do not speak English: "Poland is Europe's greedy hyena" © Winston Churchill

[rotmistr60]

These vehicles have a very low combat value ...

But we will repair the engines and

Polish Air Force plans to operate until the resource is exhausted, which was extended in 2014

So if, in your words, they do not have combat value, then why are you spending money on repairs? Somehow it is not Polish to fly on Soviet planes and at the same time not forgetting to swear the USSR and Russia. Overseas "bros" do not want to give their own, and probably the toad presses to buy.

[strelokmira]

So if you do not have, in your words, military value, then why spend money on repairs?

So everything seems to be written in the article

however, they are heavily used, for example, in the training of JTAC operators [leading combat aircraft from a forward position] or in the calculations of radar stations

Have not a bad educational value

[akarfoxhound]

What the journalist wrote about the educational value of combat Drying is stupid!

[Cyril G ...]

This is a miserable whining ........ For the sake of this, no one will spend millions on their maintenance, repair, training of flight and technical personnel ...

The casket is simply too expensive to maintain the existing F-16s and prepare the flight crew for them. Last year, the technical readiness of the existing Polish Air Force F-16s was in the region of 30-35%.

[Reserve buildbat]

It was the gentlemen who appropriated exclusive rights to themselves? So let Sukhoi declare a ban on the use of its planes, in which other people's crooked hands were digging. This is a civilized practice. Useless, but cultural.

[aszzz888]

Polish fighters Su-22

Well, and how does it fly on the planes of the aggressor))? Doesn’t shiver, doesn’t feel sick?

[Zaurbek]

With the AL-31 it would be generally good to fly. They were written off early in the Russian Federation.

[Eug]

There was an option of serious modernization on the border of the 80-90s with a new wing without a variable sweep. But the Air Force then abandoned single-engine aircraft ....

[Zaurbek]

With a modern avionics and engine, the fighter would have turned out to be full-fledged. Yubtekatel under the radar is small only.

[Eug]

The minimum radar - a modification of the Spear with MiG-21-93 - was placed, more advanced ones can be suspended in a container. The problem is that they rejected single-engine aircraft in principle, even the number of twin-engine aircraft was considered excessive .. peace, friendship, chewing gum ...

[Doliva63]

Quote: Eug

There was an option of serious modernization on the border of the 80-90s with a new wing without a variable sweep. But the Air Force then abandoned single-engine aircraft ....

It is not the Air Force that they were abandoned.

[Eug]

Specify, please, I know the version of what exactly the Air Force Command (Deinekin). It was necessary to reduce under the signed agreements and under the reduction, the Air Force command "let down" single-engine aircraft, primarily as those that are inexpedient to modernize into multipurpose.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Eug

Specify, please, I know the version of what exactly the Air Force Command (Deinekin). It was necessary to reduce under the signed agreements and under the reduction, the Air Force command "let down" single-engine aircraft, primarily as those that are inexpedient to modernize into multipurpose.

I meant the Air Force itself - pilots and IAS, they liked the car, they did not want to abandon it. And isn't the Su-17 a multipurpose aircraft? Interception, aerial combat, work on the ground with RSami, URami, guns, bombs, reconnaissance - where are there so many targets? And the Air Force command, in order to preserve the stripes, could then write off anything. Actually, as the Union was "written off", to write off the main fleet of the IBA is a trifling matter.

[bayard]

Yes, and with the fact that there are speeds for his eyes - he always flew faster than the MiG-21. To launch it into space?

Quote: Zaurbek

They were written off early in the Russian Federation.

They began to write off even under the Union, when the regiments were transferred to the Su-24. The pilots, by the way, were reluctantly retraining for the Su-24, many even (of those who had little to do before service) wrote reports ... and the Su-24 aircraft simply sweared.
And the Su-17s were loved.

[Zaurbek]

The load will increase, fuel supply, range, acceleration ...

[bayard]

It’s too late for us, but they don’t need anything.
We have no one thought of the Su-24 move on the AL-31F change, they could also decide:

Quote: Zaurbek

The load will increase, fuel supply, range, acceleration ...

But they didn’t decide.
Enough of what is. After all, there is 11200 kg of power on the afterburner, where is it more to him?

[Herman 4223]

Looks like the machine is not so bad for their work since they are so cherished.

[bayard]

Wonderful car in its class.

[bober1982]

These machines have great combat value, the Poles must somehow justify the costly commissioning of the Su-22, and they are talking about some kind of guidance operators and the low value of the aircraft.
They need to humble pride.

[datura23]

to humble the pride of the Pole? yes it’s easier to loop.

[Ros 56]

And as with spare parts, you can’t even put a stolen right for repair instead of a piece of iron on the engine.

[Eug]

As for me, this is the distribution of the pie within NATO. I suspect that a real repair or most of it will be done on Lutsk Motor. But Poles within NATO can quite officially buy both a license and modern repair tenologies (if they have changed compared to the one for which they have documentation) and, accordingly, spare parts and repair kits - after they figured out who will repair.

[svp67]

For our part, we note that questions are raised by statements about the exclusive rights of the Polish company WZL No. 2 to the AL-21F3 engine. This power plant was developed in the Soviet OKB-165 on the basis of AL-21F, differing from it in increased traction and improved characteristics.

And what, someone bothered us to formalize all rights? I'm more than sure not. So they use it. And I will not be surprised that it was not without our help ... For example, one of ours wanted to bypass the sanctions in this way in order to service this type of aircraft and its propulsion system in the countries still operating it, so they opened a "dummy" or joint enterprises, with the transfer of rights and documentation ...

[Piramidon]

Quote: svp67

And what, someone bothered us to formalize all rights? I'm more than sure not. So they use it. And I will not be surprised that it was not without our help ... For example, one of ours wanted to bypass the sanctions in this way in order to service this type of aircraft and its propulsion system in the countries still operating it, so they opened a "dummy" or joint enterprises, with the transfer of rights and documentation ...

Do not forget that Poland received these rights from the USSR when it was considered an ally of the Warsaw Pact, long before any sanctions

[svp67]

Quote: Piramidon

Do not forget that Poland received these rights from the USSR when it was considered an ally of the Warsaw Pact, long before any sanctions

I like their position ... here it is not profitable for us, but to mean this is the "remnant of the criminal totalitarian past", which must either be prohibited, or simply not carried out, but as soon as it is profitable, like nothing, you can be patient, the main thing is that money was dripping ...

[APASUS]

Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA, specializing in the repair of aircraft, as, according to the customer, she is the sole owner of the technical documentation for these engines, which gives this company exclusive rights to work with AL-21F3.

I always believed that it was the manufacturer’s license that gives the right to repair aircraft, and the Poles have one of those documentation

[Dysindich]

Quote: rotmistr60

These vehicles have a very low combat value ...

But we will repair the engines and

Polish Air Force plans to operate until the resource is exhausted, which was extended in 2014

So if, in your words, they do not have combat value, then why are you spending money on repairs? Somehow it is not Polish to fly on Soviet planes and at the same time not forgetting to swear the USSR and Russia. Overseas "bros" do not want to give their own, and probably the toad presses to buy.

They, like, write what they are going to use for training operators of guiding attack aircraft and radar calculations ... However, in the world, only two countries are able to build attack aircraft, and the American A-10 is very outdated. (and there is simply no selling quantity of these). And for work on bearded men (for example) the capabilities of the Su-22 are enough for the eyes.

[pavelty]

As if the resource of the glider is dead ...

[Cyril G ...]

Iranian forty ++ year old Tigers, Phantoms and Tomkets fly the same

[knn54]

In 2014, the aircraft lifespan was extended by 10 years.

[iouris]

The next step is exclusive rights to the alcohol-containing drink "vodka".

[Nikolay R-PM]

Quote: Vasyan1971

Quote: Nikolay R-PM

Chelyabinsk 712 Arz does not have these exclusive rights or what?

Here, most likely, we are talking about other Polish plants over which it is Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA that has the advantage. Competitors to cut off. I doubt that the proud clearing will turn to Chelyabinsk ...

most likely it is

[opus]

Quote: author

For our part, we note that the questions raise Polish exclusive rights statements WZL No. 2 for the AL-21F3 engine.

1. again distorted

declared exclusive repair rights AL-21F3

против

Quote: author

For our part, we note that the questions raise Polish exclusive rights statements WZL No. 2 for the AL-21F3 engine.

there is a difference?

Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA is the sole owner (on an exclusive basis) of technical documentation and has the exclusive right to overhaul the engineth AŁ-21F3 in accordance with the “Technical conditions for the overhaul of AŁ-21F3 engines of series III and higher with the serial number index 540”. .
In addition, Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 SA has the technical capabilities to ensure the implementation of the above order and there is no alternative solution to complete the contract.

2.Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze Nr 2 SA (Military Aviation Plant No. 2) is the main partner supporting and supporting the operation of aircraft for the Armed Forces of the Republic of Poland, including Su-22, MiG-29 and C-130 Hercules.

Modernization and equipping of aircraft with modern systems is becoming an important area of ​​activity of WZL No. 2 SA. The company upgraded the MiG-29, Su-22, TS-11, Mi-17, Mi-8 and Mi-2 aircraft, including the following systems: GPS, TACAN, VOR / ILS, anti-collision lamps, UHF / VHF radios , transponders, KT / IFF and others. In 2007, the Su-22 aircraft for the Angolan Air Force was completely modernized, including the development and integration of a new mission computer, EGI laser platform, HUD head-sight, multifunction display. In 2011–2014, the company upgraded 16 MiG-29 aircraft of the Polish Air Force. It included the integration of modern avionics systems and the creation of an open architecture based on the new mission computer and data bus MIL BUS 1553 B.

In November 2011, the reconstruction of the prototype Mi-8 helicopter was completed, combined with the expansion of maintenance and modernization. The company received permission to conduct serial repairs of this type of aircraft.

Verification repair of the Su-22M4K and Su-22UM3K aircraft has been carried out since 2015 with the adaptation of instruments in the cabin to Anglo-Saxon units along with the installation of a new radio station.

Inspection repairs extend the life of the aircraft for another 10 years.

factory certified since 2000

3. In 1982 year the company received the status of a state enterprise and received the name: Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze No. 2, and six years later expanded its scope of activity through the repair of the Su-22, and in 1996 - the MiG-29, which significantly increased the potential of the plant. In 1996, the factory in Bydgoszcz won a tender for the repair of this type of aircraft and was practically the only one in the country that was able to successfully modernize military aircraft. On December 20, 1997, the first repaired MiG-29 left Bydgoszcz, and by May 1999, four more had been modernized.

What else is needed?

[TermNachTer]

Well they are going to buy F - 35, why do they need "drying"?)))

[Doliva63]

In the photo - S-54U, no? I forgot how they look.

[iouris]

Why did the Su-17 suddenly become a "fighter"? This is a strike aircraft, it was delivered as a "fighter-bomber". Something has changed?