Bronze swords in battles and museums

Bronze swords in battles and museums

A replica of a G2 type Bronze Age sword made by Neil Barridge for Eric Lou


... there were warlike people, husbands wearing a shield and a sword ...
First Book of Chronicles 5:18


Puzzles stories. They say that they meet at every step. And that is why so many speculations have appeared around them. We know how to start, well, let's say, this or that product, is metal or stone ... We know how its “fate” ended - it was made, it is in our hands, it was found and you can hold on to it. That is, we know the points A and B. But we do not know the point C - how exactly this product was made and applied. True, this was, in general, more recently.

Today, the development of science and technology has come to the point that they allow the most amazing studies to be carried out, which give amazing results. For example, the study of microcracks on the tips of spears of Stone Age people made it possible to establish an amazing thing: at first they did not throw spears, but struck them, apparently, coming close to the victim or pursuing her with a run. And only then did people learn to throw spears. It also turned out that the Neanderthals struck with spears, but the Cro-Magnons had already thrown them, that is, they could hit the enemy at a distance.


The oldest bronze rapier sword of the early Bronze Age. Archaeological Museum of Poros, tomb number 3, Greece

It is clear that it would be simply impossible to detect by any speculation! Well, after the Stone Age, the age of metals came, and new types of research again helped to learn a lot about it. Well, for example, that the first bronze appeared was not tin, but arsenic, and this is surprising, because the smelting of such a metal was a very harmful occupation. So the replacement of harmful arsenic with harmless tin is by no means a whim of our ancestors, but a necessity. Other studies have been done on bronze. weapons. The fact is that it has long been found out that all cold steel began for some reason precisely with a sword - a stabbing weapon, not a chopping one, and even secured in a special way on a wooden handle! That is, the blades of the ancient, earliest swords of the handle did not have. And it's one thing a knife attached to the handle with the help of three transverse rivets. But a metal knife can do without a handle that is included in the handle, because it is short.


A typical 164 mm long Wessex dagger blade from Wessex with a wide “heel” for rivets


Sandars Bronze Age Classification of Swords. She clearly shows that the most ancient swords were exclusively pricking! Then came swords with V-shaped crosshairs and a high rib on the blade. The handle was cast at the same time with the blade. For 1250 BC stabbing-chopping swords with an H-shaped handle were characteristic. It was one with the blade, and wooden or bone "cheeks" were attached to it with rivets

But what about the oldest rapier swords that were long? At VO, such ancient Bronze Age swords were already described. But since new data have appeared today related to the study of this weapon, it makes sense to again turn to this interesting topic.


To begin with, it is not clear where and why it is not clear why and why some ancient blacksmith suddenly took and made using this technology not a knife, but a sword, moreover, with a blade more than 70 cm long, and even a diamond-shaped one. In which region of the planet did this happen and, most importantly, what was the reason for this? After all, it is well known that the same ancient Egyptians fought with spears, clubs with stone tops, axes, but they did not have swords, although they used daggers. The Assyrians also had long rapier swords, which we know from the images on the bas-reliefs. Europeans also knew such swords - long, stitching, and used by the ancient Irish, and Cretans, and Mykene, and somewhere between 1500 and 1100. BC. they had a very wide range of use! In Ireland, in particular, they were found a lot, and now they are stored in many British museums and in private collections. One such bronze sword was found right in the Thames, and similar ones - in Denmark and all in the same Crete! And everyone had the same fastening of the blade to the handle with rivets. They are also characterized by the presence of numerous stiffeners or ridges on the blades.


That is, if we talk about the heroes of the Trojan War, we should keep in mind that they fought with swords about one meter long and 2-4 cm wide, and their blades were exceptionally piercing. But what methods of armed struggle could lead to the appearance of swords of such an unusual shape is not clear. After all, purely intuitive chopping is much easier than pricking. True, there may be such an explanation that these rivets were the cause of the injection technique. They held piercing strokes well, since the emphasis of the blade on the handle fell not only on them, but also on the blade shaft itself. But instinct is instinct. In battle, he tells you that chopping the enemy, that is, striking him in a segment of a circle whose center is his own shoulder, is much simpler and more convenient. That is, anyone can swing a sword, in general, like brandishing an ax. It is more difficult to stab with a rapier or a sword - this must be learned. However, there are nicks on Mycenaean swords that say they used chopping blows, not just stabs! Although this could not be done, because with a strong side impact, the rivets easily torn a relatively thin layer of bronze of the blade shaft, which made it break off from the handle, became unusable and was suitable only for remelting!


Rapier sword with a hilt and a crosshair. The work of Neil Barridge

Of course, this did not suit the ancient warriors at all, therefore, stabbing swords with a blade and a thin shank soon appeared, which were already cast as a whole. The shank was lined with plates of bone, wood and even gold to make a hilt convenient for holding the sword! Such swords could not only be pricked, but also chopped, without fear of spoiling the hilt, and in the era of the late Bronze Age, according to the famous British weapons historian Ewart Oakeshott, they were somewhere around 1100-900. BC. spread throughout Europe.


A replica of the so-called Bronze Age Mindelheim sword (Hallstatt sword, 900-500 BC) Length 82,5 cm. Weight 1000 g. The blade was made by an English blacksmith and caster Neil Barridge. Grip pads and tops made by Kirk Spencer. Side view


View from the blade

But then again something happened, and the shape of the swords once again changed in the most radical way. From barbed rapier, they turned into a leaf-shaped, like a gladiolus leaf pricking-chopping sword, in which the blade ended with a shank for attaching the handle. It was convenient to stab with such a sword, but the blow with its blade expanding to the tip became more effective. Externally, the swords became simpler, they ceased to be decorated, which was characteristic of an earlier period.

Well now, let's think a little. Thinking, we come to very interesting conclusions. Obviously, the first swords in Europe were stitching swords, as evidenced by the finds of Mycenaean, Danish and Irish specimens. That is, swords that required that they be fenced, and therefore, learned fencing techniques. Then fencing gradually began to give way to felling as a more natural way of combat, which did not require special training. The result was rapier swords with metal handles. Then fencing completely went out of fashion, and all the swords became purely chopping. Moreover, the swords found in Scandinavia have no signs of wear, and bronze shields made of very thin metal can not serve as protection in battle. Maybe “eternal peace” reigned there, and all these “weapons” were ceremonial?


Mindelheim Original Bone Finish

And the lower we descend on the timeline, the more we find professional warriors, although, reasoning logically (what many “people interested in history” like to do!), It should be just the opposite. It turns out that the most ancient warriors used sophisticated fencing techniques, using relatively fragile rapiers for this, but the later ones chopped swords from their shoulders. We know that Mykene warriors fought in solid metal armor made of bronze and copper, and even with shields in their hands, so it was impossible to hit them with a chopping blow. But in some joint or in the face, you could try to prick. After all, the very same helmets from strong boar fangs did not cover the faces of soldiers.


Mounting the pads on the handle ...


Cover rivets


The relief surface of the blade

All of the above allows us to conclude that the appearance of pricking and chopping swords did not mean regression in military affairs, but testified to the fact that it acquired a mass character. But, on the other hand, the presence of a caste of professional warriors among the ancient Irish, as well as among the Mycenaeans and Cretans, cannot but surprise. It turns out that the caste of warriors among European nations arose before each man of his tribe became a warrior and ... received a stabbing-chopping sword! And it may well be that this was connected with the rarity of bronze weapons. Not everyone could give such a deadly but brittle sword, and that this situation changed only with time.


Finished handle with a wooden topping by Kirk Spencer


This is what the bronze blade looks like


And this is his tip!


The sword in the hand!

No less interesting is the study of the traces that ancient weapons left, as well as an assessment of its effectiveness. Engaged in such a very modern science as experimental archeology. And not only amateurs-subversors of "official history" are engaged in it, but also the historians themselves.


Neil Barridge with a Sword - Museum Replica

At one time, a number of articles were published on VO that mentioned the name of the English blacksmith and caster Neil Barridge. So, not so long ago he was invited to participate in a project on the study of weapons of the Bronze Age, which was initiated by a group of archaeologists from Great Britain, Germany and China led by Raphael Herman from the University of Gottingen.

The task of experimental archeology is to understand how certain items found by archaeologists during excavations were put into practice, as they were originally used. In particular, it is experimental archeology that can tell us how the Bronze Age warriors fought with their bronze swords. For this, copies of ancient weapons are created, after which experts try to repeat the movements of ancient swordsmen.


Neil Barridge Swords Used in Experiments (Raphael Hermann et al. / Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory, 2020)

First of all, the origin of 14 types of characteristic dents and nicks that were found on the swords of that era was established. It was possible to find out that the soldiers clearly tried to avoid sharp blows so as not to damage the soft blades, but used the technique of crossing the blades without hitting them one against the other. But closer to the end of the Bronze Age, it became noticeable that the marks are grouped along the length of the blades more closely. That is, it is obvious that the art of fencing has developed and the swordsmen have learned to deliver more accurate strikes. The article was published in the journal Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory.


The blade of the sword after roughing and before polishing the blade


Polished blade, grip pads and olive wood tops


Completely Sword

Then, analyzes of metal wear were performed. After all, bronze is a soft metal, so a lot of different traces, as well as scratches and notches, remain on products from it. And from them it is just possible to find out how a particular tool was used. But then, scientists increasingly check theoretical calculations in practice and try to get exactly the same marks on modern copies of ancient swords as on their originals.

Neil Barridge, who specializes in making weapons from bronze, was asked to make exact copies of the seven swords found in Britain and Italy dating from 1300-925. BC. And the composition of the alloy, and its microstructure, and micro-strength of the manufactured replicas exactly corresponded to the originals.

Then experienced fencers were found who struck with these swords, as well as spearheads, on wooden, leather and bronze shields. Each hit and parry was recorded on video, and all marks on the swords were photographed. Then, all the marks that appeared on the swords during this experiment were compared with signs of wear on the 110 Bronze Age swords that came to our hands from museum collections in Great Britain and Italy.

So work with the goal of “peering into our” past, including the past of ancient swords and warriors of the Bronze Age, is ongoing today and is by no means a fortune-telling on coffee grounds. The most modern research methods and instruments are applied. So the secrets of the past are gradually becoming less ...


American reconstructor Matt Poytras created these armor of the Mycenaean era, to which he also ordered a type F sword from Neil Barridge!

In particular, it turned out that when the sword hit the surface of the leather shield, either the edge of the blade was crushed, or a long notch appeared on its sharpened surface. If the blow was parried by the flat side of the sword, then the blade was bent by about ten degrees and long scratches appeared on it. Interestingly, such traces were found on only four swords. And this suggests that the soldiers carefully avoided the sharp blocking of blows, as it could lead to damage to the blade.


"Shield of Clonbrin." Neil also made a copy of the leather shield from Clonbrin (the only leather shield of this ancient era that has survived to this day is a custom price of £ 350), and fencers, participants in the experiment, fought with such shields

On the original swords stored in museums, there were many clusters of various marks, and in a small area of ​​the blade there could be up to five such dents. A total of 110 blades found 325 (!) Clusters. And this is evidence that the Bronze Age warriors perfectly controlled their weapons and very accurately hit their opponents with blows that fell on the same section of the blade.


So this experiment was conducted ...


The weapon of the experiment and the visual consequences of it ...

By the way, about which cold steel strikes (chopping or stabbing) are of great danger, the military of different countries argued for a very long time. And in the same England back in 1908 they armed the cavalry ... with swords, motivating it with the fact that the saber must be waved, but with the sword - just stabbing, which is faster and more effective!


English cavalry sword mod. 1908, used during the First World War.

PS The author and site administration are grateful to Aron Sheps for providing color schemes and illustrations.

PPS The author and administration of the site thank Neil Barridge for the opportunity to use photographs of his work.
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  1. tlauicol 11 May 2020 06: 06 New
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    Homer, of course, later lived, but his chopping blows are described in the Illiad. But why the first professional warriors did not limit themselves to a short-handed spear? Economical and easier to manufacture
    1. kalibr 11 May 2020 07: 04 New
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      I do not know! Maybe there was a psychological barrier? Millenniums spear was long and suddenly shorten it? Although there is a study where such spears are described (tips) as belonging to one of the ancient peoples of our country.
      1. Olgovich 11 May 2020 07: 09 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        Millennium spear was long and suddenly him shorten?

        Darts also exist for a long time ... recourse
        1. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 28 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          Darts also exist for a long time ...

          Psychologically and functionally different weapons ...
          1. Olgovich 11 May 2020 08: 35 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            Psychologically and functionally different weapons ..

            Yes, but this and that spear.
      2. Genry 11 May 2020 07: 58 New
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        Didn’t you get the idea that all this is bronze, just performed ritual or decorative functions? And making bronze weapons is much more difficult than steel?
        In our time, it is already clearly visible that history was written by people devoid of logic and the “Bronze Age” is the stupidity of one, the most loudly screaming “historian”.
        1. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 21 New
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          Quote: Genry
          Didn’t you get the idea that all this is bronze, just performed ritual or decorative functions? And making bronze weapons is much more difficult than steel?

          Have you read the article? Weapons with "combat marks" found. They were compared with marks on the replicas. Material identity has been achieved. So the tracks on the replicas coincided with the marks on the museum exhibits. So they fought. But there were swords and shields without markings. This is also in the article. It is necessary to READ, and not just look at pictures. By the way, making bronze weapons is much easier than steel. Of course, you, like most Russians, are most likely not a very wealthy person, otherwise I would suggest that you visit Neil Barridge on a visit to Cornwall. He has a luxurious two-story house with sea views and there are rooms that he rents to those who would like to join ... The master class lasts three days. Price 675 pounds. With meals! During this time, you will complete the full course and make your own sword or dagger ... In the evenings, stories by the fireplace. Very interesting people come to him ... It is better to see than to read ten times. So I highly recommend, if that ... How will the epidemic end.
          1. Genry 11 May 2020 08: 41 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            Weapons with "combat marks" found.

            This is how you determined that the military and not some of the "historians"
            or their workers are not pampered?
            Quote: kalibr
            So they fought.

            Have you ever seen in a movie how they fight with knives. There will be thousands of marks and bends (bronze breaks due to bending).
            And how to fight with a weapon to which full force cannot be applied? Even against a stick or wooden sword, this bronze will lose.
            Quote: kalibr
            You are poor, of course, like most Russians,

            And you are rude, as the most "aristocratic ...".
            Quote: kalibr
            otherwise I would suggest that you go to visit Neil Barridge on a visit to Cornwall. He has a luxurious two-story house with sea views and there are rooms that he rents to those who would like to join ... The master class lasts three days.

            You were there?
            This is just a “business”, like sugar homeopathic pills / balls. Here, a considerable part of the funds goes to advertising, for which suckers with poorly developed logic are maintained.
            Quote: kalibr
            You will complete the full course and make your own sword or dagger ...

            And they also let melt bronze from ore, or do they provide ready-made ingots / scrap?
            1. kalibr 11 May 2020 09: 05 New
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              I am also poor and I was not visiting Neal. But what you write is one solid conspiracy theory. Again cunning historians deceive everyone, conceal, indulge in swords, instead of carefully describing them and fixing every little thing on them, museums lie, and scientists lie, they all lie ... and only one truth has been revealed to you. Do not tell people something. And about the "rude" ... is not that true? Go to the Nile and see for yourself. So write an interesting expose book. Become the second Fomenko ... Alas, I can not afford it.
        2. Olgovich 11 May 2020 08: 47 New
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          Quote: Genry
          And making bronze weapons is much more difficult than steel?

          First came the Stone Age, then the Bronze Age (which some also classify as copper and, in fact, the Bronze Age), then the Iron Age.

          And each subsequent century is more complex and high technology.
          1. Genry 11 May 2020 09: 00 New
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            Quote: Olgovich
            First came the stone age, then the bronze, then the iron.

            Bronze could not appear before iron.
            First: melting point of components. Iron could itself be smelted from the ore decomposed at the base of a large bonfire. Copper - no way.
            Secondly: the complexity of the composition and technology of combining components.
            With iron, everything is simple: one component. Everything is complicated with bronze, even today the technology is changing.

            And do not forget that the corrosion resistance of bronze is higher and therefore it has been preserved. But a large number of household items and a small weapon from it, says that most of the weapons were still steel.
            1. Olgovich 11 May 2020 09: 18 New
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              Quote: Genry
              about the first: the melting temperature of the components.

              melting point of copper 1085 g, iron-in one and a half times above
              Quote: Genry
              Iron could itself be smelted from the ore decomposed at the base of a large bonfire. Copper - no way.

              nope, try to melt the iron ... in the fire.

              But copper can be melted in a fire or smelted from ore in a primitive furnace with charcoal and even without boost, it is possible.

              The first copper products are generally forged from copper nuggets by cold forging
              Quote: Genry
              Secondly: the complexity of the composition and the technology of combining the components.

              Mankind had a lot of time to experiment, varying one or another composition
              Quote: Genry
              And do not forget that the corrosion resistance of bronze is higher and therefore it has been preserved. But a large number of household items and a small weapon from it, says that most of the weapons were still steel.

              yes today Most weapons are steel. yes
              1. kalibr 11 May 2020 10: 05 New
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                It is a pity, of course, that people write all sorts of nonsense here, instead of first seriously studying the issue. But the word seriously among the majority is clearly not held in high esteem. Meanwhile, in the USSR and the Russian Federation we have a lot of works by E.N. Chernykh - Head of the Laboratory of Metallographic Analysis of the Russian Academy of Sciences. And familiarity with them is for those who are interested in ancient metal science necessary. Here are some of them:


              2. Maks1995 11 May 2020 10: 16 New
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                Ah, the famous statements of modern alternativists ...
                In the USSR, all the boys manually melted tin, and most processed copper on the labor ...

                By the way, for bronze, you can add anything to copper (common sense).
                But with gold and silver is already called differently, by the noble ....
              3. Fishery 11 May 2020 10: 42 New
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                I’ll intervene a little) for the sake of fairness from swamp ore, iron is easily melted, we build a clay stove and having primitive furs, ritual axes are still made in Africa this way on holidays, the video is on YouTube.
                1. kalibr 11 May 2020 10: 47 New
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                  Quote: Tonya
                  I’ll intervene a little) for the sake of fairness from swamp ore, iron is easily melted, we build a clay stove and having primitive furs, ritual axes are still made in Africa this way on holidays, the video is on YouTube.

                  Yes, but not at the stake ...
                  1. Fishery 12 May 2020 21: 59 New
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                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh3p_PTMlZk
                    in the furnace, won’t show the reconstructors, and there, as I understand it, you want to chop and pierce, you want to get bullion and continue to swim ..
                2. DemikSPb 11 May 2020 13: 01 New
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                  Thus, the iron is not smelted, but an iron sponge is obtained - the cricket. Then slag is beaten out for a long time by forging a heated billet, etc. Just bronzes are easier (less laborious) to obtain complex products, since the workpiece is obtained by casting. But more knowledge and skills are required. As a result, relatively mild low-carbon iron is obtained from the swamp ore, the strength of the products from which is lower than the strength of tin bronze.
                  1. Egor53 12 May 2020 00: 57 New
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                    Dear Dmitry! They did not know how to obtain low-carbon iron from swamp ore even in the Middle Ages. To reduce iron ore (consisting of iron oxides), coal was used, which at reduction temperatures led to the saturation of steel with carbon. The problem in the steel industry, before the pudding process and the Bessemer converter, was just the excess of carbon in the resulting steel, and not its lack.
                3. CTABEP 11 May 2020 18: 36 New
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                  Only here the strength properties of such iron are lower than that of bronze.
                4. abrakadabre 12 May 2020 20: 18 New
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                  I’ll intervene a little) in fairness, from the swamp ore, iron is easy to melt
                  I’ll intervene interchangeably: it is impossible to melt iron from marshy and any other ore (even from scrap metal) at home, that is, it is impossible on a regular fire. Generally. You can’t even get a cry. A sufficiently enclosed furnace and pressurization are required. To obtain crits, there is also a reducing medium - that is, an excess of coal. At the stake, if you strongly stoke, you can turn the iron into scale ... gradually.
                  The bottom line is that melting (bringing to a liquid state) is not required. In a makeshift house, there is not enough temperature for this. But from the ore in the presence of coal, iron is reduced. That is, carbon takes oxygen from iron oxides and flies into the pipe in the form of carbon dioxide.
                  It turns out a spongy mass of iron, which is very contaminated with slags, - krit. After that, to get an ingot, the cricket needs to be cleaned of toxins - forged in many passes. Moreover, since the process occurs in air, that is, with an excess of oxygen, a considerable part of the iron obtained with such difficulty is again oxidized to scale. During forging, slags are mechanically squeezed out and fall off. We get a more or less uniform ingot from which the product can be forged.
                  1. Fishery 12 May 2020 21: 51 New
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                    such a clay stove, a couple of hours of work and fur, on YouTube there are a lot of videos like not reenactors do, but quite real blacks in Africa)))) for the production of ritual axes from iron) which it’s very easy to chop off your head)))
                    here are some of the big list
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ot2znd6aI
                    there are no high technologies, the options are different of course, but the principle is one
                  2. Fishery 12 May 2020 21: 53 New
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                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ot2znd6aI
            2. kalibr 11 May 2020 09: 54 New
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              Quote: Genry
              First: the melting point of the components. Iron could itself be smelted from the ore decomposed at the base of a large bonfire. Copper - no way.
              Secondly: the complexity of the composition and the technology of combining the components.

              What is it like? The melting point of copper is 1083. The melting point of iron is 1538.
              The complexity of the composition? What is it like? Threw a handful of tin in a melt of copper - that’s the whole difficulty!
              1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 13: 57 New
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                You know, based on the fact that you have “bronze - soft metal” in your material, metallurgy is not entirely yours, but you do not track reconstruction of the technologies of this very ancient metallurgy.

                Even here, the material is based on the British. Although, in the Russian Federation only in the Southern Urals there are at least three experiments on casting copper and bronze (and they are also mined for authentic), and five more are in Siberia. Materials and videos - the sea. Articles and monographs - regularly. There are even children's camps with sharpening for the reconstruction of work with metal, stone, horn, wood, and leather as close as possible.

                I mean, if you throw a handful of tin in copper, you will get anything, but not bronze.
                1. kalibr 11 May 2020 17: 16 New
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                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  Even here, the material is based on the British. Although, in the Russian Federation only in the Southern Urals there are at least three experiments on casting copper and bronze (and they are also mined for authentic), and five more are in Siberia. Materials and videos - the sea. Articles and monographs - regularly. There are even children's camps with sharpening for the reconstruction of work with metal, stone, horn, wood, and leather as close as possible.

                  If the "sea" - write! Who is against! It’s easier for me to work with the British than with our people. On our ... burned repeatedly. On them - not once. This is how to look for gold in manure and clay. There are both there and there. Both there and there you choose it with your hands. But there is a slight difference!
                  1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 18: 09 New
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                    There will be an opportunity - certainly!) So far - alas, quarantine measures do not concern me much, and plans for the season seem to have begun to appear. Although, here is just the southern bronze fall from all but the southerners themselves.
          2. Jozhin Besbashen 22 June 2020 00: 10 New
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            Everything, of course, is correctly described, but how do experimental archaeologists deal with knowledge of physics, metallurgy, metal science and blacksmithing? Bronze is an alloy consisting of at least two components - copper and tin. Tin is obtained from cassiterite, which must be mined for something - it does not occur in placers, or rather, in small fractions, from which it can be obtained from sand in small quantities and only by complex synthesis - in modern realities. How and what was mined - with a copper pickaxe? Suppose we somehow got it and, with a sin, smelted and cast the billet in half ... Forged something with a copper hammer, and the anvil and tongs for forging and heating in the furnace were also copper or bronze? Now imagine the legion and their bronze weapons, shields, helmets, shields. How many kilograms of bronze or copper you need to get, enrich, melt, etc. for one person? And for 10 thousand - the legion (legions reached 50 thousand according to official history) ???
            The Gaisky mining and processing enterprise quietly sobbed aside. But there were also chariots .... In general, one of the thousands of fakes about the Bronze Age, in which perfect holes in topazes were drilled with bronze drills. Topaz, I recall, in 8th place in hardness before diamond, bronze and copper in 3.
            But the most important thing is arsenic ... Where and how was it synthesized and how many thousands died of it right away? ....
            Consequently - there was no Bronze Age, there was immediately an Iron Age, and this means that mankind did not develop at all in the way that it was invented by historians and archaeologists themselves.
        3. Trilobite Master 11 May 2020 14: 19 New
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          Quote: Genry
          In our time, it is already clearly visible that history was written by people devoid of logic and the “Bronze Age” is the stupidity of one, the most loudly screaming “historian”.

          Excuse me, are you a supporter of the new chronology? Or just a "brilliant subverter" operating with "logic and common sense" without basic knowledge of the subject?
          I mean, I’d like to decide whether it’s worth trying to explain or prove something to you or it’s useless.
        4. The comment was deleted.
      3. Engineer 11 May 2020 11: 42 New
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        Vyacheslav, everything is fine. But....
        Indicate the sources. I want to dive more fully)
        At least in the comments indicate
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. kalibr 11 May 2020 17: 27 New
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          I am glad. For some reason, the first answer went down. So, for starters: above are the covers of THREE BOOKS E.N. Black. The most affordable and ... interesting is the first. Next, look for this book:

          Well, these:



          1. Engineer 11 May 2020 18: 02 New
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            Thank you very much
      4. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 11: 59 New
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        For me, piercing swords are quite logical when you consider that the main weapon is a spear used in the ranks of something like a phalanx. The spear is a heavy dimensional piece. In battle, it tends to break. Therefore, it is desirable to have a second weapon for replacement, and for the convenience of battle in the ranks, one more spear is desirable. But since, as mentioned above, it is heavy and dimensional, it is logical to use a short spear. By the way, as far as I remember, the soldiers of the Seima-Turbino culture were just like that. And then a short spear evolves into a stabbing sword.
      5. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 13: 52 New
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        Whence is long when growth?
        And - the meaning of the spear, even a short one, in a street fight? Given the width of the streets.
      6. cat Rusich 11 May 2020 21: 53 New
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        My opinion. Long rapier sword - overcoming protection with a knife.
    2. rich 11 May 2020 08: 36 New
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      Homer, of course, later lived, but his chopping blows are described in the Illiad

      Xyphos inflicted not only piercing and flanking, but also chopping blows.
      Proof of? Yes, they are full - and drawings on ancient Greek vessels, and a description in Homer's tales, and the same parable about the cut Gordian knot. Although in my opinion the most important evidence is the presence of protective helmets, a handrail and shoulder pads




    3. Denimax 11 May 2020 11: 07 New
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      Quote: Tlauicol
      Homer, of course, later lived, but his chopping blows are described in the Illiad. But why the first professional warriors did not limit themselves to a short-handed spear? Economical and easier to manufacture

      Who knows?! Maybe the spearheads were found and were partially from such half-swords.
      1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 14: 00 New
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        Between those and these - as if a millennium of difference.
        And the spears in Bronze are characteristic, there is basically a short petiole. Very rarely - a sleeve.

        And the spear itself is not dolly, but protruding ribs in the same places.
    4. Bar1 11 May 2020 15: 37 New
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      About all sorts of Mycenaean and English swords it’s certainly interesting to talk to someone, but it’s better to talk about our land.
      according to OI we are told that in Russia there was neither iron, nor gold, nor silver. As for gold and silver, we shall wait with an answer, but iron!
      Since ancient times in Russia there was such a city of Tula gunsmiths, if you think about it, why would such a production suddenly appear in this city? There is only one answer, all these crafts are usually located where there are minerals. And this is so. If you open the mining map of the Tula region, then we can say that such an accumulation of minerals cannot but become a center for mining in the past.
      In the Tula region there is coal, iron ore, gypsum, refractory clays. all that is needed for iron production and weapons production to begin in these parts of the world. And we are told that there was no iron in Russia.
      http://info.senatorvtule.ru/info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=211

      for example, photos of quarries. It is believed that these are abandoned quarries of brown coal of the Soviet period, but, as usual, one can doubt it, because in these quarries they find sludge-waste from iron-mining production.

      1. kalibr 11 May 2020 17: 07 New
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        Why are you breaking through the open door? Who tells you that there was no iron? When do they find slags and everything else? There is a book by Rybakov published back in Soviet times ... I don’t even speak about the USSR Archeology recommended to you in 20 volumes. Their very quantity - 20 volumes, speaks of the overwhelmingness of such a task. But here are Rybakov’s books ...

        I’ve read such a thing at the institute ...

        Now she looks like this, but she didn’t get any worse. Take and read ... Less get on the sites of different half-fools, and read the work time-tested and based on solid field material.
        1. Bar1 11 May 2020 20: 35 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          Who tells you that there was no iron?


          there were no mines, as OI and Rybakov said, but there was only swamp iron. But as you can see, the mines were. And ore iron ore contained copper as impurities.
        2. betta 12 May 2020 09: 09 New
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          Vyacheslav, you probably read these books, tell me, bronze is melted without access to air and with additives, how could a person think of all this? . I can’t imagine how to realize that it is possible to get metal without knowing anything about this material. How do authors of books (mentioned above) build a logical chain of reasoning of a person, from inventing new material to creating it, well, application, purpose, etc.?
          1. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 46 New
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            Quote: betta
            Vyacheslav, you probably read these books, tell me, bronze is melted without access to air and with additives, how could a person think of all this? . I can’t imagine how to realize that it is possible to get metal without knowing anything about this material. How do authors of books (mentioned above) build a logical chain of reasoning of a person, from inventing new material to creating it, well, application, purpose, etc.?

            Very interesting question. The answer will be this: firstly, I had a series of articles about ancient metal, the cities of Chatal-Khayyuk, the city of Cyprus Hirokiti ... and there is about it. The whole cycle! Go to the profile and look. There is no time to help you. Secondly, look at the book of Blacks, the very first with a copper idol on the cover. There about it in detail.
    5. DDT
      DDT 12 May 2020 13: 44 New
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      The "primitive" peoples of Mesoamerica and Africa, by the way, had a certain half-spear-half-sword. Surely it was at the cracks, Just until the archaeologists dug up?
  2. Olgovich 11 May 2020 06: 08 New
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    Completely Sword

    Beautiful weapon, unusual, golden color of the blade.

    The tip resembles a tetrahedral bayonet.

    Thickening along the entire blade from its wide sides, apparently, a kind of stiffening ribs to compensate for the low strength of the material? recourse
    1. kalibr 11 May 2020 07: 05 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      Thickening along the entire blade from its wide sides, apparently, a kind of stiffening ribs to compensate for the low strength of the material?

      Yes, and this suggests that our ancestors were wonderful technologists. We noticed this ...
    2. rich 11 May 2020 07: 54 New
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      The Greek sword Xyphos appeared at the end of Mycenaean civilization. The first blades were made of bronze, so their shape was so complicated. The thing is that bronze is not forged, but poured, so there was nothing complicated in making such a blade. It was enough to fill the hot bronze in a wooden mold, and then polish the workpiece and make a handle.

      When the Greeks learned to work with iron and harden it, then the xyphos became iron. They used such hoplite blades, especially well trained, because this blade in tight formation was much more convenient to work with than a curved copy.
      It is believed that xyphos were most common in the II-III century BC. It has always been considered a secondary weapon, and some historians and archaeologists believe that it was Xyphos who became the progenitor of the Roman sword of gladius. Although most archaeologists believe that the direct Celtic swords of the Celts are the progenitor of Roman gladius.
      In fact, at the dawn of their development, the Romans used curved swords such as copis, and only after the Roman troops clashed with the Spanish tribes, they switched to straight swords.
      As for xyphos, it was a real masterpiece of Greek gunsmiths. When the blades began to be forged from iron, then for the manufacture of the leaf-shaped form of xyphos had to sweat. It is for this reason that only the best Greek warriors who had it used such blades. The fact is that all Greek swords were purely secondary weapons, and were used only in case of a broken spear, which was the main weapon of the hoplite. It was necessary to have great courage to continue to fight in close formation with one short sword after breaking a spear.
      Just the Greeks - this is not the Romans, although both of them fought in close order. Just the Romans used straight short swords as their main weapon, and the Greeks fought with a phalanx. But the most experienced Greek fighters, who were considered Spartans, perfectly fought in close formation using xyphos. By the way, the Spartan straight swords were shorter, so that the warriors could work in close order without interfering with each other.
      1. rich 11 May 2020 08: 05 New
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        In general, the ancient Greeks built their phalanx according to certain principles. The front was always the best and most experienced veterans who not only masterfully possessed the most diverse types of Greek weapons, but also had a full set of weapons and armor. The less experienced warriors stood behind, and in the end there were poorly armed recruits whose main task was to gain experience in battle, while being exposed to minimal risks.
        The ksifos sword had a total length of about 60 centimeters, and was worn not at all on the belt, but on a special shoulder mount. This arrangement of the blade made it possible to quickly remove it if necessary. This also indicates that the weapon was purely secondary, and should have been used in extreme cases when the spear suddenly broke. But in later times, xyphos up to 80 cm long began to appear, which were clearly worn on the side, and were used much more often.
        Pictures Bronze Spartan Xyphos in the exhibition of the Archaeological Museum of Sparta




        1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 10: 43 New
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          Quote: Rich
          Archaeological museum of sparta

          Good afternoon, can you tell me what kind of museum it is?
          1. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 43 New
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            Small museum and very stuffy. There are no air conditioners, only fans, and they do not refresh the hot air. So you need to look as quickly as possible if you come in the summer. But located in Sparta, yes. And there are a lot of interesting things!
            1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 16: 48 New
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              Quote: kalibr
              But located in Sparta, yes.

              I was there, I don’t remember exactly, but in my opinion there were no swords on display, only in this form

              However, exposure may vary.
              Small museum and very stuffy.

              Yes, very small, literally a couple of rooms.
              1. kalibr 12 May 2020 17: 15 New
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                But in Sparta!
                1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 17: 21 New
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                  Quote: kalibr
                  But in Sparta!

                  Yes, in Sparta. Perhaps there are the most "grandiose" ruins in all of Greece.
                  The best preserved is the foundation of the temple of Athena Mednodomnaya, repeatedly described in the literature.
      2. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 12 New
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        Great addition +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      3. Phil77 11 May 2020 11: 44 New
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        Good morning to you Dmitry!
        And about the wooden forms, didn’t you get excited? The forms were probably clay, wooden, they will burn out!
        1. Phil77 11 May 2020 11: 54 New
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          What am I doing? In early youth, I got a profession as a fashion designer at AZLK. So, we made models of various parts from wood, then our models went to the foundry, where they made molds, and then these forms went directly to production.
          I will say in advance that I have nothing to do with the collapse of AZLK, ZIL!
          1. rich 11 May 2020 18: 39 New
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            Good day, Sergey!
            about the wooden forms, didn’t you get excited? The forms were probably clay, wooden, they would burn out!

            They were different - both clay, and stone and sand, and wooden.

            In Herodotus' History, for example, the manufacture of wooden molds for open bronze casting is described. A thick layer of a mixture of crushed "tin stone" and hematite, mixed with bee wax, was applied to the recess, in which the blade was imprinted.
            In the tomb of a high-ranking Egyptian official of the XVIII dynasty (about 1450 BC), an image of the technological process for obtaining bronze castings was found. . The hieroglyphic text explains that these paintings illustrate the casting of either swords or spearheads, and that metal was ordered from Syria by order of the pharaoh.

            One worker, under the supervision of the overseer, hammer a mold in a wooden deck immediately for 12 blades. Another coat this form with a mixture of river sand and “stannum” on a piece of fat. Three workers, under the supervision of an overseer, bring metal. Two workers with furs fan the fire in the forge. Nearby are melting crucibles and a pile of charcoal. The center shows the casting operation. In the evening, the workers carry off the finished blades.
      4. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 14: 02 New
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        Uh ... You just invented it all yourself, or read where?

        Yeah, bronze is not forged but poured, especially on a long blade, yes. And traces of forging on everything that is not a Celt, akinak, or a mace - this is so, from the bulldozer.
        1. abrakadabre 12 May 2020 21: 05 New
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          Yeah, bronze is not forged, but pours
          I will upset you. Bronze is forged and poured, and even goes to the springs. It all depends on the specific composition. That is the content of the components. This was known to the masters already in the Bronze Age. What they used.
          1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 22: 05 New
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            So there was irony, here, judging by the comments, many people are sure that bronze swords are exclusively cast, and the fact that ancient bronze is very far from always an alloy of copper and tin is generally a discovery for the majority.

            On the other hand, to refute patterns and stereotypes that were originally driven into the head by school books is a necessary thing. There, the history of antiquity is given so casually, and so incorrectly, even in pictures ...

            One good thing, the Recon movement is expanding. These are, yes, meticulous. But almost nobody will reconstruct her Bronze ...
  3. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 06: 11 New
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    Thank you, as always read in one go!
    1. kalibr 11 May 2020 07: 01 New
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      Glad you liked it. But I was just lucky to meet good people and knowledgeable professionals.
      1. Snail N9 11 May 2020 08: 48 New
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        The bronze sword-like weapon does not hold water. It can be used in battle with the same success as a regular pointed crowbar, into which it turns after several hits. In my opinion, a bronze ax or a six-club club is far more dangerous, reliable and convenient weapon than this sword. Some scholars even consider bronze swords a purely status and ritual thing unsuitable for battle.
        1. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 58 New
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          Quote: Snail N9
          Some scholars even consider bronze swords a purely status and ritual thing unsuitable for battle.

          I would like to know these some and their work, where they expressed it. Could you do it?
          1. Snail N9 11 May 2020 10: 23 New
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            No need to ulcerate. I don’t write down the names of books where I met this or that statement, all the books I read for 40 years are hard to remember ... But I confirm in historical literature that I have repeatedly doubted that bronze swords were weapons of battle (due to insignificant fighting qualities) . and it is claimed that they were rather a status thing or a ritual attribute.
            1. kalibr 11 May 2020 10: 28 New
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              Why immediately ulcerate? Why is a normal question immediately perceived as an “ulcer”. But I write down where I read what, and that is why I asked this question. I didn’t have to read this, although I’m sure that I read much more than yours. And then there are authoritative authors, for example E.N. Black, and there is Fomenko ... Soon my book "Warriors of the Bronze Age" should be published. First full encyclopedia. This is where historiography is presented and links to sources ... And you ... just words. By the way, there are several Black books above - look, they are available.
              1. Snail N9 11 May 2020 11: 05 New
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                At one time I read quite a few low-budget publications such as “Arms and armor of Turkic-nomadic peoples” or “Analysis of arrowheads from burial grounds ....” - the names are not literal as I don’t have the habit of spelling the names of books. And by the way, one fact that many authors, for example, here https://history.wikireading.ru/206501 just argue with the assertion that bronze swords were not intended for fencing, and indeed battle, already says that such theories (about the parade of this weapon) have been repeatedly expressed by certain authorities.
                1. kalibr 11 May 2020 12: 58 New
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                  Well, this is already something. But the article just has about it, though the whole line ...
              2. Ptolemy Lag 11 May 2020 23: 56 New
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                Vyacheslav Olegovich, when the book comes out, please report on the site! Is preorder possible?
                1. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 37 New
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                  Anatoly! Of course I will inform you. But for now, the publisher answers: "in the plan, in the plan ...". I’ve been waiting for one book for 3 years! So what is the pre-order? And all my artwork on author.today. There you can order them cheaply to read ...
          2. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 14: 06 New
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            You know, on the Hansa there is such a section - “Historical edged weapons” and there is such a topic in it “Merciless Bronze”, somehow go to read. It is small, about two hundred sheets, and has been going on for about five years somewhere, but there, at least among the leading people who held these blades in their hands, tried to forge and pour, and there are enough knowledgeable metallurgists.

            The topic of ceremoniality of the Cretan rapiers was also dismantled, one of the first.
            1. kalibr 11 May 2020 16: 58 New
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              Quote: AllBiBek
              You know, on the Hansa there is such a section - “Historical edged weapons” and there is such a topic in it “Merciless Bronze”, somehow go to read. It is small, about two hundred sheets, and has been going on for about five years somewhere, but there, at least among the leading people who held these blades in their hands, tried to forge and pour, and there are enough knowledgeable metallurgists.

              What only I, Anatoly, did not read, whom I did not consult. I once wrote about the technique of writing books. You choose a topic and only read it from morning to evening. Then a week rest. Then again. Then you write a questionnaire and answer it. You see where the punctures are, and you look where they are. If you do not find it, it means 0, and here is either a discovery or "nothing shines." You score and go further. After 2 months, you can write 2 pages per day. There is another way ... you write a year, a second article, publish them according to plan. Then you collect, write an epilogue prologue and to the publishing house. Then you read gradually ... The main thing is the plan, perseverance and perseverance and 2 pages a day, regardless of mood and weather. There is a good mood and a lot of material - then 5!
              1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 18: 05 New
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                )) Well, see:

                Mycenaean rapiers are a separate blade class, with no analogues before, and a couple of thousand after. Bronze in Ireland - only five hundred years from them will only begin, and in Scandinavia - after a thousand. Moreover, in Scandinavia it is not as such, it is not even on imported raw materials, it is 9/10 on imported products. The peak of the development of bronze as a material for weapons is generally China, the times of Qin Shi Huang, although the Chinese knew well the iron, they had Altai and the Turks at their side. Nonetheless. And the same Japan switched to iron in general in the first centuries of our era.

                This is to say that you took blades with a chronological difference of a millennium, with a territorial one of two thousand, with functionality from military to decorative, and they only have in common that the material was copper with the addition of something, more precisely - then arsenic, antimony, tin, and lead, respectively.

                But - made a good review.

                I liked the people, this is the main thing).
                1. kalibr 11 May 2020 21: 57 New
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                  Anatoly! The material turned out to be 11000 characters! In online journalism, the norm is 8000 characters, 14000 is no longer readable and not perceived material. Some sites generally switch to 5000 format. I worked with this and it is very difficult. Popular Science at one time gave materials to the Network in 4000 characters - it also worked with them and it was also very difficult. That’s what’s going on. So to paint in more detail is like a man urinating against the wind!
        2. Fishery 11 May 2020 10: 44 New
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          in a tight formation, you don’t especially wave, and it’s enough to stab with a bronze sword like a bayonet.
        3. zuber 12 May 2020 17: 37 New
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          on an agate seal, a warrior conducts quite a good reception with this thing unsuitable for battle


    2. Phil77 11 May 2020 12: 45 New
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      Hi Albert!
      * Everyone knows how prettier the capital was under the Sobyanin, but everyone can see how prettier the Sobyanin was under the capital. *
    3. Phil77 11 May 2020 12: 47 New
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      * On the straight line of the Sobyanin.
      -Your favorite deer song?
      -My dear, Muscovites. *
      1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 13: 17 New
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        Greetings! hi Happy holiday!
        I have long noticed a great love of Muscovites for the new mayor laughing
        1. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 24 New
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          Favorite nickname? Reindeer herder! Other? Bardyurshchik! Tiler! You see, Albert, Luzhkov before this, this ...... just a kid!
          1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 13: 44 New
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            Baturin in front of him baby? laughing I take off my hat three times hi hi hi
            1. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 49 New
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              Baturin, Baturina, Luzhkov! Before that, just the kids !!!! I already wrote about it, 5! 5! Factories in West Biryulyovo !!! And that's all about it !!!!! without hiding it !!!!
              1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 14: 07 New
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                Well done man - what else can you say laughing As we Jews say, Aleev Alein - give us Gd!
                1. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 24 New
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                  This is not well done, this is a reindeer herder !!!!!
                  1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 14: 30 New
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                    Come on to you - the Tyumen guy is also not easy in the capital)).
                    1. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 32 New
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                      Buddy !!!!!! And we with him ???? and with his girlfriend ?????????
                      1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 15: 06 New
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                        Yes get used to it, and when you get used to it, a new one will come. And the old Peter always sweeps cleaner)).
                      2. Phil77 11 May 2020 15: 07 New
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                        I do not want !!!!! Better in Ryazan !!!!!
        2. 3x3zsave 11 May 2020 19: 32 New
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          Luzhkov, you are also very "loved." laughing
          1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 19: 51 New
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            Hello Anton! hi I did not dare to say this to our emotional friend Phil today)),
            1. 3x3zsave 11 May 2020 20: 07 New
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              Albert! hi
              Well, I'm a jester, I can! laughing
      2. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 27 New
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        You know, those who were under Yeltsin, at least something, but were shy! These !!!!! There are no concepts at all about morality !!!!!
        And in this, as I wrote earlier, we are to blame! Grandchildren of the Winners !!! Sin!
        1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 13: 45 New
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          The period of accumulation of initial capital and the formation of capitalism are all norms. )))
      3. Birch 11 May 2020 13: 30 New
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        Quote: Krasnodar
        Greetings! hi Happy holiday!
        I have long noticed a great love of Muscovites for the new mayor laughing

        Well, he is not a Jew, after all .. Or soon, one of yours will be and will "restore order"? negative

        I feel for this.
        1. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 45 New
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          Oh, how simple! Here is Sobyanin, who is he? Also chosen by God? Understand, those who are above are out of nationality!
          1. kalibr 11 May 2020 16: 50 New
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            Quote: Phil77
            Understand those who are upstairs outside of nationality!

            How well you said !!!
          2. Catfish 11 May 2020 21: 27 New
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            Seryozha, hi! The machine gun doesn’t care what nationality the target is.
            As Vladimir Ilyich said in the film "Michman Panin":
            "Imagine the seventeenth year, well, let’s say, the eighteenth, a revolution will certainly break out in Russia ..." (c)
            Now it’s already the twentieth year, and he doesn’t smell of revolution, he has shredded the people. request
        2. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 13: 51 New
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          So I’ll come)).
          1. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 30 New
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            Oh, dear Albert! It’s time, it’s time to roll off as our friend, GENERAL !!!!, from Moscow! It’s time, buddy!
            1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 15: 08 New
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              Remind the name of a mutual friend, pliz hi
              1. Phil77 11 May 2020 15: 14 New
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                And you don’t know, pliz, Konstantin, his name !!!!
                1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 16: 10 New
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                  Quote: Phil77
                  And you don’t know, pliz, Konstantin, his name !!!!

                  Are you talking about a Sea Cat or a friend in Real Madrid?
                  1. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 12 New
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                    Sea cat! We lived in the same area !!!! Gravity, damn it!
          2. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 38 New
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            The trouble is that I, like our mutual friend, was born in this city !!!
          3. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 43 New
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            And the worst thing is !!!! My friend, Albert !? What we lose. position, yes? Do you understand ???
            1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 15: 10 New
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              So get settled in motionless motionless and again motionless fellow
              As a will and broadcast of a mutual friend - if we are talking about that mutual friend))
              1. Phil77 11 May 2020 15: 17 New
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                Pliz, you fenced off from the Arabs. Why not Muscovites fenced off these * Muscovites *?
                1. Phil77 11 May 2020 15: 18 New
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                  Yes, then think about why I should leave my city because of these ?????
                  1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 16: 11 New
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                    Because, if "these" cease to climb into the MSC, you yourself do not want to live in this city. They are his blood.
                    1. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 24 New
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                      Al, I feel disgusted to live in this city. What should I do? Question! And at the same time I was born here! You see?!?; !!
              2. Phil77 11 May 2020 15: 21 New
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                No!!!!! Biryulevskaya street is mine !!!!! Visitors are not allowed !!!!!
                Do not give up, do not pass !!!!
              3. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 06 New
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                Al! And why on earth should I take my city ???
              4. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 10 New
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                Anticipating your question, yes I am fighting them. How? Well, how can an ordinary taxpayer fight?
                1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 16: 35 New
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                  Have you both parents been born in Moscow?
                  1. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 40 New
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                    No, of course not. Grandfather from Vladimir, mother from Tiraspol.
                    It’s debatable
                    1. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 16: 46 New
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                      And their children will be NEW MOSCOW fellow
                    2. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 54 New
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                      Al! And who are they Muscovites?
                    3. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 58 New
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                      No, well, what is clear who we are with the Cat is clear. But who else ??? Who else but Samoteki, Trubnaya, Tsvetnoy?
                    4. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 19: 52 New
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                      Born or living more than 25 years in the capital))
                  2. Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 00 New
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                    What is the bazaar about !!
                  3. Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 05 New
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                    So, my friend, the question is, who am I? Muscovite? Roots, everything is completely well, not Moscow!
                  4. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 19: 53 New
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                    You are a Muscovite. And I am the Eternal Jew laughing
                  5. Phil77 11 May 2020 19: 55 New
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                    The eternal Jew, the eternal Muscovite! And that sounds, amigo !!!
                  6. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 19: 56 New
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                    So the Eternal Jew is a Muscovite by definition laughing
                2. Phil77 11 May 2020 19: 57 New
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                  Albert, honestly! It's nice to deal with you!
                3. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 19: 58 New
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                  Taki yes - the brooms do not knit hi
                4. Phil77 11 May 2020 20: 34 New
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                  Albert! My friend! I want you to give Koresh my friendship in the spring of memory forever!
                5. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 20: 56 New
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                  Thanks, accepted drinks
            2. Phil77 11 May 2020 20: 00 New
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              Take my cat to tell you the same - * Yes! *
          4. Phil77 11 May 2020 20: 03 New
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            Albert, I’m cooking potatoes with you!
          5. Phil77 11 May 2020 20: 06 New
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            Potato with a Jew, ??? ha, ha, ha !! Do not tell me !!!
          6. Krasnodar 11 May 2020 20: 57 New
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            Taki hanku? No, I'm on the paths, but on the paths)). And then, in the past
        3. Phil77 11 May 2020 20: 09 New
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          Yes, yes, yes! Here is the right to add another Anton !!!!!!
        4. Phil77 11 May 2020 20: 10 New
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          And how do you like it?
  4. Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 07 New
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    Ha ha ha ha !!! laughing
  • Catfish 11 May 2020 21: 34 New
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    Hi Albert! Something Seryoga struck hard today, apparently got his mayor with the company. But, in general, I agree with him, this gang, headed by the "sun-faced" one, sat in the Kremlin. He turned to us, to the old people, "lose your relatives," he says. Did we immediately become his family? History repeats itself a second time as a farce, remember, one leader also once abruptly propped up, and all of a sudden for him they immediately became "brothers and sisters." But there was a completely different situation, but because today everything looks like a cheap farce. hi
    1. Operator 11 May 2020 23: 24 New
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      Here in fig drag your Russophobic nonsense in this thread? am
      1. Catfish 11 May 2020 23: 57 New
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        And the licking of power is called by the patriotism that is in your possession? laughing
    2. Krasnodar 12 May 2020 08: 39 New
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      Greetings, Konstantin hi
      Alternatives to the Kremlin party are not yet visible, there are, of course, “applicants”, but they are different - curves, slanting, etc.
      Moscow has always been a merchant city - now it is turning into a "bureaucratic".,
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 May 2020 11: 55 New
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        Quote: Krasnodar
        Greetings, Konstantin hi
        Alternatives to the Kremlin party are not yet visible, there are, of course, “applicants”, but they are different - curves, slanting, etc.
        Moscow has always been a merchant city - now it is turning into a "bureaucratic".,

        There was an idea of ​​breeding power institutes in the province !!!
        It would not be bad for someone in Omsk, someone for Nizhny Novgorod, and some for someone in Anadyr !!!
        And then the whole initiative ended with the relocation of the Constitutional Court of St. Petersburg !!!
        1. Krasnodar 12 May 2020 12: 24 New
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          It will end with a transfer to Sochi)).
  • SaLaR 11 May 2020 23: 11 New
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    From the heart dancing ...)))
  • Marine engineer 11 May 2020 07: 20 New
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    “..... it has already been found out that all cold weapons began for some reason precisely with a sword — weapons that pierce, rather than chop, ..”

    Because the ancestor of the sword was a spear, or rather the tip of a spear.
    1. rich 11 May 2020 08: 09 New
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      It's hard to disagree with you
    2. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 09 New
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      Quote: Marine engineer
      Because the ancestor of the sword was a spear, or rather the tip of a spear.

      Good phrase. Thank!
      1. Phil77 11 May 2020 11: 57 New
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        And the ancestor of the spear was a sharpened stick. Evolution, however!
        1. kalibr 11 May 2020 12: 56 New
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          Exactly! And not only imprisoned - burnt on fire. Found such ancient spears ...
    3. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 12: 14 New
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      By the way, the very shape of the sword is often very similar to the spearheads in the details. Which speaks in favor of this version. The lengthening of the cutting edge is most likely caused by the first desire to make it impossible to capture with a bare hand, and secondly to increase the likelihood of causing a cut wound to the enemy.
    4. Trilobite Master 11 May 2020 13: 14 New
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      Quote: Marine engineer
      the ancestor of the sword was a spear, or rather the tip of a spear.

      An interesting statement, albeit controversial. In appearance and method of application, the sword is more like a large knife than the tip of a spear. At the same time, archaeologists have provided us with a whole set of transitional forms - namely, from a knife to a sword, not from a spear.
      In this case, I am inclined to agree with the author - the hypothesis voiced by him that the transformation of swords into a stabbing tool is due to the design flaws of attaching the blade to the hilt seems to me quite acceptable.
      1. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 16: 28 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        In appearance and method of application, the sword is more like a large knife than the tip of a spear.

        Rapier swords? You definitely do not confuse them with any others?
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        At the same time, archaeologists have provided us with a whole set of transitional forms - namely, from a knife to a sword, not from a spear.

        And who told you that all swords, all long-bladed edged weapons evolved only from copies? The Egyptian-Hyksos Khopes generally looks like an ax.
        1. Trilobite Master 11 May 2020 21: 52 New
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          Nevertheless, the blade and pole arms evolved each in its own way, although periodically at different times and in different regions their development paths intersected.
          In relation to the samples presented in the article, I have no doubt that they have knives, not spears, as their ancestors. The spears developed in the direction of lengthening the shaft or sleeve, but not the feather. I personally attribute protazans to axes (halberds) rather than to spears and in the Bronze Age, especially the early one, they are still very far away. The knife developed in the direction of lengthening the blade, which we have in this case.
          The low quality of the material required a large thickness of the blade, which in turn made it necessary to lighten this blade due to its width.
          The imperfection of fastening the blade to the hilt forced the master to shift the center of gravity of the blade to the hilt, which predetermined its expansion towards the guard. Hence this form.
          With the advent of developed shanks, the shape of the blades themselves immediately changed.
          By the way, I don’t know why these swords are called rapiers. In their form, they remind me of the rather Gothic swords of the late Middle Ages. Like that. This is a remake, of course, but to make it clear what I mean.

          Those, however, were larger and appeared as a result of completely different reasons, but nonetheless ... smile
    5. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 14: 13 New
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      Not yours.
      The ancestor of the sword was a Neolithic hunting knife, and just at its base there are no recesses for attaching the pole, since they greatly reduce the strength of the product on side loads.

      ANY tip of the Stone Age spear - including those that the megafauna was hunted for - with a maximum palm size, and there - yes, either a side notch or an end.

      The Neolithic massively mastered the bilateral squeezing flattening retouch.

      And so, ANY object when switching to a new material dances from the familiar form of the predecessor from another material. Bronze is the rule.
  • rich 11 May 2020 08: 12 New
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    Thanks for the interesting article and illustrations.
  • Operator 11 May 2020 08: 14 New
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    From the series "British scientists proved" - but didn’t they understand in advance that no bronze in the sense of strength holds a transverse load (chopping with a sword) laughing

    The rib of strength, which was forced to form on the blade of a bronze sword, allowed them to apply only shallow cutting wounds with a depth of ~ 1/4 of the width of the blade. Those. even a suit of thick cowhide could protect against the blow of such a sword.

    The sword as a mass weapon appeared only after the development of smelting and iron production, and before that, it was mainly managed by spears, darts and arrows with bronze stitching tips.
    1. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 27 New
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      Quote: Operator
      From the series "British scientists proved" - but didn’t they understand in advance that no bronze in the sense of strength holds a transverse load (chopping with a sword)

      The rib of strength, which was forced to form on the blade of a bronze sword, allowed them to apply only shallow cutting wounds with a depth of ~ 1/4 of the width of the blade. Those. even a suit of thick cowhide could protect against the blow of such a sword.

      I see - this is one thing. Now it is proved experimentally.
      1. Operator 11 May 2020 08: 43 New
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        "Proven" by cutting grants, apparently laughing
        1. kalibr 11 May 2020 08: 59 New
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          Rich countries and rich scientists can afford it. But this, of course, does not shine for poor scientists ...
          1. Operator 11 May 2020 09: 04 New
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            Beggar scientists use their brains, rich "British scientists" breed suckers for money in their "magnificent boarding houses" laughing
            1. kalibr 11 May 2020 09: 48 New
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              Yes, but for some reason the result is in favor of the British ... For me, you know, for example, it doesn’t matter how they earn. The result is important to me. And the result is this: my colleagues in England and the USA get many times more for the same work. Even if you take away taxes ... in a lot! D.Nikol was informed that they had found a catapult in Syria ... he took it and flew there in the middle of the school year. And I couldn’t even dream of such a thing. And so in everything. And all this reduces the effectiveness.
              1. Phil77 11 May 2020 12: 17 New
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                Quote: kalibr
                And the result is this: my colleagues in England and the USA get many times more for the same work. Even if you take away taxes ...

                Vyacheslav Olegovich, our esteemed one! Too much about money, about them * green * and various.
                But they don’t give me masks of peace! Restricting my personal freedom and forcing me to comply not with the recommendations of specialists / virologists, dermatologists, etc./, but with bureaucrats who have become impudent from impunity, such as sobyanin, cancer, etc. person !!!!! amForgive me for being a little off topic! Because .... What is a Russian rebellion, you as a historian know, and he is not far off! Forgive me once again, what is off topic, it’s boiling !!!!!
                1. kalibr 11 May 2020 12: 53 New
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                  Quote: Phil77
                  Forgive me for being a little off topic! Because .... What is a Russian rebellion, you as a historian know, and he is not far off! Forgive me once again, what is off topic, it’s boiling !!!!!

                  Dear Sergey! There is such a wonderful drug phenibut. Created in Soviet times for astronauts. It is not addictive. Do not sell in a pharmacy - ask any therapist. You will find evidence on the Web ... And more such nonsense will not worry you.
                  1. Phil77 11 May 2020 12: 57 New
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                    Vyacheslav Olegovich! And the film * Law-abiding citizen * Do you know?
                    1. Phil77 11 May 2020 15: 02 New
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                      Sorry! And who does not agree with this film? With the plot? As? What are the names! You are welcome!
                    2. kalibr 11 May 2020 16: 48 New
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                      Quote: Phil77
                      Vyacheslav Olegovich! And the film * Law-abiding citizen * Do you know?

                      No. I am not too familiar with the movie world.
                      1. Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 28 New
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                        Frets! In short, Butler in the title role! He has a wife and daughter killed. He takes revenge on everyone! Because he is a real killer in the past, capable of killing everyone. But they, the protagonist Denzel Washington do not know about this. And he kills everyone except Denzel , because this is not the plot. The film is excellent!
                      2. Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 32 New
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                        Vyacheslav Olegovich! Isn’t it time to get acquainted? With this? Kiromir, and ????
                      3. kalibr 11 May 2020 21: 48 New
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                        Sergei! You are clearly less than me. Therefore, you can still watch a movie simply because "the movie is great." I can’t afford it already. I watch a movie with my family, often without even thinking about what I watch, but with my family, or films "for work". There are some loved ones and that’s all ... I just don’t have time for more. My day is scheduled in minutes!
                2. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 13 New
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                  If they bring me like that. It will be inconvenient for the authorities. By the way the question! After all, it’s about wearing masks and gloves, right? What are the complaints to me if I carry this crap in my bag? Where is the decree that I should bear this * indecency * on his favorite physics, and pens * playful * ????
              2. Birch 11 May 2020 12: 58 New
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                Quote: Phil77
                Forgive me for being a little off topic! Because .... What is a Russian rebellion, you as a historian know, and he is not far off! Forgive me once again, what is off topic, it’s boiling !!!!!

                This "historian" just shakes the country into a riot of the type of the 90s, everything will be even bloodier .. We have come to whom to contact .. hi
                Quote: kalibr
                Dear Sergey! There is such a wonderful drug phenibut. Created in Soviet times for astronauts. It is not addictive. Do not sell in a pharmacy - ask any therapist. You will find evidence on the Web ... And more such nonsense will not worry you.

                Here is his malicious answer and he is very glad that people like us are hurt by the living and spit in the soul .. They are waiting in the wings! negative
                1. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 03 New
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                  C'mon! And you like to wear a mask, gloves do not understand whose decree ??! Tomorrow? Collar, strict? I do not want !!!!
                2. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 07 New
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                  Quote: Birch
                  that people like us hurt

                  There are so many of us! And do not you think that those who are in the Kremlin and on Tverskaya ask much more questions than answer them? Penalties? Pension reform? What else is needed in order, conditionally, for the French people to take to the streets?
                  French? But not Russian! Why ????
                  1. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 20 New
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                    Waiting for an answer? Your answer?
                  2. Phil77 11 May 2020 16: 19 New
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                    Oh, minus signers! Well, guys, at least provide some justification, eh? Why are you so stupid?
                  3. Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 40 New
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                    As I understand it, you minuscars like to wear masks? Is it better to wear strict collars, right? Who are you guys?
                  4. SaLaR 11 May 2020 23: 21 New
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                    Russia ... a great country ... nullified Victory Day ... that's why
                3. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 02 New
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                  My friend, don’t you think it’s worthwhile to think at all. And about history, and about who rules, and finally about what this word * liberalism * means? And it means one thing - freedom! No? Who are those who turned out to be above and obliging us to have the concept of freedom, since they see each other ???? There is an answer ????
                4. kalibr 11 May 2020 16: 46 New
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                  Quote: Birch
                  Here is his malicious answer and he is very glad that people like us are hurt by the living and spit in the soul

                  Why is this a malicious answer? What is your perverted perception of reality? The person has clearly increased anxiety. I want to help not with words, but with the most effective means. And you are imagining something ... some intrigues.
              3. 3x3zsave 11 May 2020 19: 56 New
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                But they don’t give me rest masks
                "I'm under the fence, wearing a hockey mask,
                Trying to remember my name and bus
                In which I sit, empty as a globe,
                And as a finished poet, I’ll leave into the distance "(C)
            2. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 12: 38 New
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              Quote: kalibr
              And I couldn’t even dream of such a thing.

              As I suspect and still do not dream.
              1. kalibr 11 May 2020 12: 54 New
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                Now it’s too late to dream ... you need to do what works well!
                1. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 13: 07 New
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                  Good article turned out. It is a pity that this does not work out for you in articles regarding the period of bloody communes.
                  1. Birch 11 May 2020 13: 23 New
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                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    Good article turned out. It is a pity that this does not work out for you in articles regarding the period of bloody communes.

                    Yes, you’ve scrubbed a little .. soldier

                    bully wink
                    1. kalibr 11 May 2020 17: 30 New
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                      Quote: Birch
                      Yes, you’ve scrubbed a little ..

                      The main thing is that you put clicks and write comments. What they do not play any role ...
                  2. Phil77 11 May 2020 13: 37 New
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                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    regarding the period of bloody communes.

                    What do you mean by this period?
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 14: 07 New
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                      The fact that it is time for 90 percent of the site’s audience to pump their crinkle and sense of humor at the very least.
                    2. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 11 New
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                      Ha, ha, ha! And you attributed yourself to 10 percent? No?
                    3. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 14: 30 New
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                      Quote: Phil77
                      Ha, ha, ha! And you attributed yourself to 10 percent? No?

                      It all depends on the circumstances. laughing
                  3. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 13 New
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                    Moreover, a sense of humor concept oh what an individual!
                  4. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 14: 29 New
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                    Quote: Phil77
                    Moreover, a sense of humor concept oh what an individual!

                    That is yes. Sometimes I get the impression that for most of those around me it has not progressed since the time of the mammoth hunt. All the same .. Hmmm .. individual.
                  5. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 51 New
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                    Individual laughing Other! Note!
                  6. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 53 New
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                    My sense of humor. Purely Muscovite!
                  7. Phil77 11 May 2020 14: 56 New
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                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    All the same .. Hmmm .. individual.

                    Be patient?
          2. kalibr 11 May 2020 16: 41 New
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            Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
            It is a pity that this does not work out in articles regarding the period of the bloody communes.

            Who said that? Just these articles are much more professionally written and more scientific. In any case, they always have links to PRIMARY sources. Articles of a general historical plan are usually SECONDARY. And what is more valuable?
            1. IS-80_RVGK2 11 May 2020 16: 53 New
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              Quote: kalibr
              Who said that? Just these articles are much more professionally written and more scientific. In any case, they always have links to PRIMARY sources. Articles of a general historical plan are usually SECONDARY. And what is more valuable

              Those articles where your opinion on certain historical events is less subjective. With articles about the bloody komunyak in your objectivity does not work out very well.
            2. kalibr 11 May 2020 21: 38 New
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              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              With articles about the bloody komunyak in your objectivity does not work out very well.

              Excuse me, how is your vision? Just like the prophet Isaiah: "have eyes but do not see!" These materials are essentially not articles at all, but collections of documents. They cannot be called articles either. 90% are photocopies of newspapers and documents. What other objectivity do you need from copies ?! Why did I write about primary and secondary sources to you? But you point blank do not see what is written! Doctors, ophthalmologist come here and immediately! Or else ... maybe something else here?
            3. IS-80_RVGK2 12 May 2020 01: 09 New
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              Let's not prove anything to me? Otherwise, everything will end very badly. You can assume that all of the above is my opinion and nothing more. Tired of you all wrestlers with komunyakami to toothache.
            4. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 30 New
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              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Otherwise, everything will end very badly.

              This is terrible, Makar! I'm already afraid and ask to relate with descent to my white and black hairstyle ...
  • Phil77 11 May 2020 17: 56 New
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    No, no, dear Vyacheslav Olegovich, the opponent has an answer! There is no answer in the authorities either! It’s a shame, I am ashamed that I defended them in due time.
  • Phil77 11 May 2020 12: 39 New
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    Dear Andrey, So you know why I like Olegovich’s articles? I’ll explain, because any points of view are allowed, any and everything about everything! What’s important!
    Moreover, all this is presented culturally, with respect to the opponent. This is not bad, will you agree?
    1. Operator 12 May 2020 15: 53 New
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      Such articles on history at VO are published not only by Shpakovsky, but also by Vashchenko and some others. One misfortune - such articles have not only individual deviations from the logic, historical facts or the competence of the authors (which is fully compensated by the comments), but also contain generic wormholes such as idolatry before the West (as an example, “British scientists” that attract 18-century armor to their ears the time period of the Middle Ages), Slavophobia (insertion of a bast - Avar in each line - an article), etc. etc.

      On the other hand, such authors at VO have a support group of Tatars, Philiphenavophiles and other Russophobes suffering from inferiority complexes, which must be pressed in full.
  • AllBiBek 11 May 2020 14: 15 New
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    In the sense of "now" when half a century ago, independently by their archaeologists, and ours?
  • Senior seaman 11 May 2020 10: 24 New
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    bronze - soft metal

    Actually an alloy :)
    why he broke off the handle, became unusable and was only suitable for re-melting!

    Only if tin bronze. Arsenic is not suitable for redistribution. Such is her irreparable flaw.
    In general, it’s very interesting.
    P.S. The caption in the image is wrong. Still, publishing is in crisis. Correctors are paid minuscule, respectively, can not find good specialists.
    1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 14: 20 New
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      Good for why.
      Only there, due to the inability to establish the percentage of loss of arsenic in the melt process, you need tremendous experience working with arsenic bronze to add the right amount, but it becomes fragile.

      But - it is still suitable for households.

      This is the early Bronze, and in Bronze, even the late bronze proper was sparse in everyday life. Metal war. A bronze dagger on a belt is a status piece in the cost of a good SUV (in translation to our realities), full bronze armor and weapons are the cost of a modern main tank.
      1. Senior seaman 11 May 2020 14: 53 New
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        Quote: AllBiBek
        Good for why.

        the unsuitability of arsenic bronze for metallurgical processing: metallurgical marriage of such bronze, as well as broken products from it, were not subject to remelting to high-grade metal, since during remelting part of the arsenic simply evaporated or precipitated as slag, and the bronze became very fragile, and at best, they could be used to make jewelry or irresponsible details;

        This is from the wiki, but also in other sources I met that arsenic bronze was not transfused.
        1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 15: 01 New
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          I don’t really look into it for such information; in terms of archeology, chronology, and geography of cultures (and their continuity and sequence), it lags far behind reality for about ten years.

          But.

          With the remelting of arsenic bronze (remake, of course), the familiar bronzers bother. It turned out, though not immediately. They poured it into short knives with a petiole, which were not at all characteristic of the Early Bronze.

          By the way, the Mycenaean rapiers mentioned here were forged from it, and how they forged and at what temperatures and what percentage of arsenic was in the blank - no one came close to the close result.

          The closest, oddly enough, were the Swedes, they had several departments of primitive crafts in the country.

          In our country it is good if electives are available, because in general, most often, they are enthusiasts on the basis of expeditions of a corresponding orientation.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • DDT
    DDT 11 May 2020 14: 19 New
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    The article is just shine! thank
    Further a question, the ancient Greeks had "indestructible bronze", orichalcum. From it the gods forged weapons. Hephaestus for example for Achilles. Here I, as a layman, are interested in the opinion of experts, what was it? Primeval "titan"? Primeval steel? hi
    1. Senior seaman 11 May 2020 14: 55 New
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      Quote: DDT
      What was it?

      Most likely - beryllium.
      1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 15: 53 New
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        At that time, only one way was possible in that oikumene to get something like this, we would bother with adding precious stones to the melt, in this case, emerald.

        The problem is that in Bronze they came to Asia Minor from the Middle East, and to it - through half the continent to the east, and in scanty amounts.

        In the Early Iron, it became simpler, because vast mines were found in Egypt, but - even then it never occurred to anyone to pour emerald powder into copper. At the peak of insanity - I came across that the powder was added to the paint for painting sarcophagi, but nothing more.

        Until traces of this kind of activity in metallurgy are found - at least indirect - beryl bronze in Antiquity will be a hypothesis earlier.

        But brass - this is a well-grounded theory, measured ingots of native copper with a high zinc content - have been found, their extraction sites have been found, and archaeologically proven that mining was carried out in Middle Bronze.
        1. DDT
          DDT 12 May 2020 13: 25 New
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          Hmm, and what added the rigidity of copper at the level of steel ?! Yes, a strange method. I also thought about brass, to be honest, is it much stronger than bronze and a little lighter?
          1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 13: 31 New
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            Uh ... And with what steel could they compare at one time?

            Hittite iron is a status thing (I love the Hittites, they managed to sell iron to their ancestors not even worth its weight in gold, but several times more expensive), and even later not to say which is much better.

            From the Illiad events to the first normal - in our understanding - steel, more years have passed than from the birth of Christ to our days.
            1. DDT
              DDT 12 May 2020 13: 36 New
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              Quote: AllBiBek
              Uh ... And with what steel could they compare at one time?

              Hittite iron is a status thing (I love the Hittites, they managed to sell iron to their ancestors not even worth its weight in gold, but several times more expensive), and even later not to say which is much better.

              Yes, the Hittite civilization still confuses historians, archaeologists, geneticists, etc. I was in Pergamon recently, very few on the Hittites. Nobody has yet decided what language they communicate with each other, which gives the right to dream of all the "folkhistorics" from the Great Apostles to the Great Armenians ... Why don’t you write articles yourself?
              1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 13: 52 New
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                What's so complicated?
                Zaguglie work on the topic of such a man as Grozny, he opened their writing during Interbellum, and he also unearthed Hatussa. "Champollion of our day," he was then called. Colorful uncle was. Steeper than him in terms of deciphering the ancient scripts - only Knorozov, this one also coped with Maya.

                Regarding ethnicity - take a map of Eurasia, put your left hand on it with your wrist in Europe and forefinger in the right shoulder. Presented such a picture?

                So, the thumb is the path of the Hittites, the index is the Mittans, the middle is the Dorian Greeks, the nameless are the future Persians, the little finger is the Sintashtins, who are Indo-Arians.

                The line of the wrists from right to left is the Celts.

                In sum, this gives a very simplified migration pattern of what is called the "battle ax culture". It is very simplistic, there in each direction there are its own nuances and relationships with auto-hones for its period, but still.

                One day, maybe I will start a cycle on this issue (and a number of others), while there is no possibility. It’s not very convenient from the phone, but the laptop is dead, and the necessary parts cannot be found.

                So far, I recall these topics through commenting).
                1. DDT
                  DDT 12 May 2020 14: 26 New
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                  Well, not everything is so simple. Peoples migrate, much that changes along the way. And in the end, the people who left England, came to Israel as Jews. On the way, you know, you never know what can happen. Interpenetration of cultures hi
                  1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 14: 36 New
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                    This is certain.

                    But.

                    That’s what I love about “battle axes,” because they are always visible among the surrounding peoples.

                    Because they are terrible Nazis by local standards.

                    They have a standard scheme - to sit down with the estate of warriors and priests on the neck of the vanquished, and in no case to mix with them.

                    Even if the vanquished - as is the case with the Achaeans - are the closest relatives.

                    And how they rallied to fix it in place - each case has its own scheme ... But the fact remains that even the Egyptians distinguished the Hittites from the Hutts, that the Dorians and Achaeans did not become one people, even in Sparta, that the Persians invented Zoroastrianism with its impossibility of changing the class and rigid transfer of the highest authority in the community only from father to son (only the son of atravan can become an atravan), well, everyone knows about the Indian castes and the visual difference - so far - among the upper and lower.
                    1. DDT
                      DDT 12 May 2020 14: 40 New
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                      That’s how it turns out, Petrovich ... Yes, but we sin on Hitler! laughing
                      Think seriously about writing your articles. You have a good analysis and knowledge is present. hi
                      PS That's just the scheme, it never worked and will not work. For one simple reason, no one can reverse the sex drive factor. Do you want to, but beautiful .ope, long and straight legs, a pretty and silly little face and conquerors replenish the cohort of assimilated.
                      1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 17: 15 New
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                        Why?
                        It still works in India. And it will work for more than one century.

                        At all times, marriage was mostly negotiated, half of the legends of all nations that the two loved each other went against the will of their parents / social realities, and this sadly ended.

                        The Celts also turned out to be very interesting; their adultery was almost legal.

                        And they broke the Scandinavian system, they usually sailed to create a colony without women or with a small number of them, and then, according to the situation, they either married local commoners or were born with the local nobility, this is their method of expansion, pure handwriting.

                        Rurik over there was called up because he was married to Umila, the board of Gostomysl.
                      2. DDT
                        DDT 13 May 2020 14: 58 New
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                        Not just the Scandinavians. As soon as the army goes to conquer foreign lands, the system "it is impossible, it is not kosher (orthodox, low-caste), etc." crashes.
                      3. AllBiBek 13 May 2020 16: 09 New
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                        Where how.
                        The psychology of primitive tribes is such that they consider only their tribe for people, and a number of animals from among the totemic ancestors of the clans, and all the rest are stupidly not people, and that’s it.

                        The Indians are clearly visible, there tribal relations, even in the format of rape - I don’t remember. Cutting the entire camp is easy.

                        The Maori also have this, from another tribe - only slaves and slaves, but they did not stupidly breed with slaves.

                        With a calm and non-taboo attitude towards sex, everything is simpler and more natural. The massive rape of women of the defeated peoples of the cities taken is more like a handwriting of cultures with monotheistic and avramic religions, no matter how strange it sounds.

                        Well, the Japanese stand apart, but for that they are the Japanese, which are so everywhere.
                      4. DDT
                        DDT 13 May 2020 16: 14 New
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                        Hmm, I don’t quite agree. If rape was not recorded, it does not mean that they were not. The instinct of reproduction and the pleasure of sex has not been canceled. And now you’re contradicting yourself, it’s just that a developed person can be nonsense about God's chosenness and exclusivity. The more primitive the culture, the more abstract the concepts of exclusivity and indecency.
                      5. AllBiBek 14 May 2020 00: 43 New
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                        And there is such a thing.
                        “Women of the vanquished take the most valuable from the winners, their seed” © I don’t remember who.

                        The question is complex and debatable, in fact, I did not come across any sane work on it, only a feminist-gender heresy for unicellular ones.
                      6. DDT
                        DDT 14 May 2020 19: 57 New
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                        Yes, but the winner could only say that. The losers were not particularly happy about the opportunity to pick up the seed. Unfortunately, the question is very interesting and not studied, and I can not advise the work. As a rule, they are discussed in a narrow circle of historians and sociologists, but no one writes dissertations on this topic. Unless students
            2. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 17: 17 New
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              * daughter, of course, T9 clever. But - he summed up painfully beautifully, and not the fact that she was not called so in her childhood.
      2. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 26 New
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        Quote: AllBiBek
        In sum, this gives a very simplified migration pattern of what is called the "battle ax culture".

        Here in VO was my article about the culture of "battle axes." Look ... And when you write your materials, please do not forget to check them through the ADVEGO-PLAGIATUS system so that the novelty is at least 75% ...
        1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 17: 10 New
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          )) I'll keep it on mind.
          I usually write from scratch and avoid quoting pieces of other people's work in my own words.

          But in general, as far as I can tell, from this perspective and with the attachment of the entire cultural and ethnic (in that order) component of the “battle axes” to specific peoples and events known from the school history textbook, nobody seemed to do it. That historians, that - especially - archaeologists are very much attached to the period of specialization, and the latter also to the materiel, whose manufacturing theory in practice is well known if one out of a hundred ...
          1. kalibr 12 May 2020 17: 14 New
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            Quote: AllBiBek
            I usually write from scratch and avoid quoting pieces of other people's work in my own words.

            Anatoly, the point is not just in quoting in pieces, it is removed by links, but in the general structure of the text. It's just that if your novelty is at the level of 92-98%, then ... everyone will be only for it.
  • AllBiBek 12 May 2020 13: 37 New
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    Oh yes. An important addition.
    If for the duration of the Illiad - that is, the eve of the "Bronze Age catastrophe" - there the quality of bronze fell many times. It is mostly lead there, the most lousy of the possible. Available sources of arsenic - ran out, tin - too, there was little antimony.

    The massive development of the giant Cornish tin outcrops is already Early Iron, and even then not immediately.

    But in the end, tin bronze fell in price so much that the Colossus of Rhodes became possible, it is made of bronze sheets, and on the iron frame by the way.
  • AllBiBek 11 May 2020 15: 15 New
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    And in those days, any metal, rare compared to the already infrequent metal, was given to them. Ramses won the Hittite king Muawalli begging for an iron dagger in plain text, and for some reason the Hittites are credited with armies shrouded in iron, about which the Egyptian Khopesh are breaking.

    Meanwhile, well, that iron could not be better than that bronze, if only absolutely trashy. Somehow it was found, well, rubbish rubbish in metallography. Syrodutnoe, single-layer, with lousy hardening.

    Orihalk is almost certainly just native copper, it has slightly different properties compared to blown from ground stones (it cannot be melted from minerals without pressurization).

    The remains of a pair of small deposits were found and dated, just 19-17 BC. They are characterized by inclusions of native zinc in ingots.

    So, most likely, their orichalcum is closest to poor quality brass due to walking percent of zinc from ingot to ingot (they were also found on some ship of that period).

    But it shines beautifully, if you clean it, but it starts easier than bronze.

    In those days, that was enough.
    1. ee2100 11 May 2020 16: 24 New
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      Well done. He said everything correctly, neither add nor decrease.
  • kalibr 11 May 2020 17: 11 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    Vyacheslav, everything is fine. But....
    Indicate the sources. I want to dive more fully)
    At least in the comments indicate

    Thank God that at least someone was really interested ...
    1. DDT
      DDT 12 May 2020 13: 27 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      Thank God that at least someone was really interested ...

      Yes, of course it is interesting! Thank you very much. 100 times better than reading Samsonov and Co., about how large ships plow a small theater ...
  • CTABEP 11 May 2020 18: 39 New
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    Thanks for the article, I first read about bronze rapiers.
  • Ua3qhp 11 May 2020 20: 02 New
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    Quote: AllBiBek
    By the way, the Mycenaean rapiers mentioned here were forged from it, and how they forged and at what temperatures and what percentage of arsenic was in the blank - no one came close to the close result.

    The following is written:
    "The presence of arsenic in bronze in an amount up to 6% by mass significantly (more than 2 times) increases its strength and hardness, improves cold malleability, makes it possible to obtain denser castings, and also increases the fluidity of the alloy. Thus, the use of arsenic bronzes facilitated the production of dense castings in embossed molds.
    Of no small importance in antiquity was the color of the alloy. When added to copper 1-3% of the mass. arsenic is a metal of red color, 4-12% - golden, more than 12% - silver-white tones. "
    Link: https://metalspace.ru/history-metallurgy/tom1/ore-metallurgy/18-myshyakovaya-bronza.html

    “After cold forging, the hardness of copper from 2,6% arsenic increases from 65-70 Hv to 150-160 Hv (Scott, 1991, p. 82). In addition, arsenic plays the role of a deoxidant, it improves the mechanical properties of products (Ravich, Ryndina 1984, pp. 117-120; Budd, Ottaway, 1990, p. 95). "
    Link: https://cont.ws/@dmstanislav/1581003
    "Arsenic in copper alloys improved their physical and mechanical properties. The presence of 0,5% arsenic in copper improves its cold malleability, makes it possible to obtain denser castings, and also increases the fluidity of the alloy. Thus, the presence of arsenic in copper facilitated the production of dense castings in embossed casting molds, without arsenic additives or other alloying elements, this was a difficult task.In addition, compared with pure copper melting at a temperature of 1083 ° C, copper doped with arsenic melts At a lower temperature, depending on the content of arsenic in the alloy, the same applies to the hardness of arsenic copper, which rises sharply as a result of hardening. conventional units, according to Vickers, from 100 to 245, pewter from 116 to 252.) With an increase in arsenic content up to 8%, the ductility of arsenic copper does not deteriorate, in contrast to the copper-tin alloy, but plastic is higher than this limit st decreases and the alloy becomes brittle. Thus, arsenic copper in many physicomechanical properties is not inferior to various types of copper-tin alloys. The color of arsenic copper is different (from white to reddish and golden hues). Arsenic minerals are usually found in the upper parts of deposits of primary arsenic-pyrite ores, and in ancient times it was not difficult for a person to find them in places of occurrence. "
    Link: https://www.sites.google.com/site/bskamalov/Home/bronza/bronza-1

    With your permission, a couple of comments for Shpakovsky:
    1. In a real battle, no one in their right mind will throw a spear - this means being left without a weapon.
    2. The chopping sword number 4 most likely is not a sword at all, but a skinning knife (skinner) from large pinnipeds, most likely walruses or seals. The presence of a characteristic hook at the end of the blade. Yes, and the region is suitable.
    Link to the modern version for a small beast.
    https://stan-knife.ru/product/nozh-byembi-kh12mf-kap-klena-rog-skrim-shou/
    1. Andobor 11 May 2020 20: 53 New
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      Quote: Ua3qhp
      The number 4 chopping sword is most likely not a sword at all, but a skinning knife (skinner)

      Yes, there is probably a stone analogue, which is generally unrealistic for the sword, but on one boat it is painted, the same in the subject. https://zen.yandex.ru/media/armsandarmor/pervaia-shashka-v-istorii-chelovechestva-bronzovye-mechi-15-veka-do-ne-iz-rorbi-5d891b12fe289100afcb5a4d
    2. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 12: 36 New
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      1. Well, why, the spear differs from the spades in that it can be thrown if something happens. Moreover, purely throwing spears are also known. For example, the Iberian soliferrum. And created on its basis, the well-known Roman pilum.
      2. So he is the imported props. Scandinavia is. There are no signs of use, thin and soft, if I remember the composition correctly - lead bronze mixed with antimony.

      How much they killed the fur-bearing beast in order to trade for this useless chopper, in which the whole task - to be put in the grave of the local major for its time - I am afraid to suppose.
      1. Ua3qhp 14 May 2020 21: 50 New
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        You can throw almost any heavy and hard object. But maybe this will be the last throw, as is the case with the spear.
  • Operator 11 May 2020 20: 06 New
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    Quote: AllBiBek
    Qin Shihuandi times

    There were no "Chinese" before Qin Shihuandi (3rd century BC), since before him on the site of modern China (without Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Manchuria) there were an assortment of 148 motley principalities whose population spoke different languages and fiercely hated neighbors.

    Therefore, the "Chinese" natives could not independently master the manufacture of iron products and were interrupted by bronze until they were trained by the Huns. By the way, the natives themselves didn’t even learn bronze - they were taught by the Black Sea arias who migrated to Manchuria in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.
    1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 22: 36 New
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      Yes, they all knew how, they had their own iron processing - centuries from the fifth, and before that - they were actively buying from the same chateaux that periodically won them.

      They didn’t make sense to switch to the iron of their time while sitting on the largest deposits of copper and tin.

      There and on the rest of the mainland is about the same.

      The Scythians over there in the Early Iron have fought a bronze akinaki for a thousand years and their arrowheads are solid bronze. Moreover, they themselves did not bother with casting, the Greeks poured, in the same Olbia.

      The massive transition to iron as the main metal of war in weapons and armor is already Rome, and even then in the second or first century BC.

      By the way, China was taught not to cast "bronze" as you call them, they have the Minusinsk depression on their side - much closer, and their bronze looks much more like it than the same Sejm-Turbine ones, if you know what I mean.
      1. Operator 11 May 2020 23: 12 New
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        Stupid Altai people (25% R1a) learned to make bronze from the same Black Sea Aryans (100% R1a).

        Manchuria, where the remains of R1a carriers and Aryan chariots of the middle of the 2nd millennium BC are found, are geographically multiple times closer to the Chinese principalities than Altai.

        PS The subclades of the Black Sea, Manchu and Hindustan (self-designation "Arya") carriers of R1a coincide.
        1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 00: 12 New
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          I realized what kind of bronze culture you are in Manchuria.

          Do you know that it is a) a dead end and b) the closest analogues are Southern France, but not the Black Sea?

          Well, all this haplogroup Nazism — and I can’t call it another way — is nothing at all. Cultural traditions and mentality are not determined by descent from the Aryans, which was confidently proved by the doubting Soviet troops 75 years ago.
  • Uncle Izya 11 May 2020 20: 42 New
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    The Romans had bronze swords and the Gauls already had steel
    1. AllBiBek 11 May 2020 22: 26 New
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      You probably can show bronze Roman swords, right? Some kind of parasonium (and this is the Dogalu Roman sword), or a bronze copy bought from the Etruscans ...
      1. Uncle Izya 15 May 2020 16: 04 New
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        Read the story when in Gaul iron began to be processed when in Rome
        1. AllBiBek 15 May 2020 17: 45 New
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          In Rome itself, iron slag and the remains of forges are the end of the 8th century BC. These are the founding days of Rome as such.

          The Gauls appeared later. They are the end of 6 to ours and are latent. Before them in Gaul there is a Hallstatt (these are other Celts), for those the level of iron processing is so-so. They are more bronze.

          What exactly do you recommend reading on the history of Gaul?
          1. Uncle Izya 16 May 2020 08: 59 New
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            on YouTube a birch bark canal, people study history unlike you
            1. AllBiBek 16 May 2020 10: 57 New
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              Ah, well, if you already have a channel and even on YouTube - where are we poor and wretched ...
  • Mihaylov 11 May 2020 20: 50 New
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    In 2015 in Greece, near Pylos, a tomb of a Bronze Age warrior was found around 1500 BC
    In addition to weapons and other items (about 3 thousand), a very interesting 3,6 cm long agate seal was discovered, possibly a Minoan work, depicting a battle scene. An interesting stabbing blow to the neck over the shield.
    Reminds Achilles blow performed by Brad Peet in the movie Troy.
    The seal itself.

    Drawing
    1. betta 12 May 2020 09: 47 New
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      By the way, is it possible to do such a job with a bronze instrument? Tool hardness allowed?
      1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 10: 02 New
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        Quote: betta
        By the way, is it possible to do such a job with a bronze instrument? Tool hardness allowed?

        I think quite. The image is authentic, of that time.
      2. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 12: 45 New
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        But chalcedony and now in their right mind no one will undertake to cut metal, even modern.

        With rare exceptions, the stone is treated with another stone, either harder or of the same hardness.

        It took not a single year to make an agate object of such complexity of drawing. Just picking a blank could take several months.

        And the master removed the abrasive - a few kg.

        At that time, mankind has been working with the Stone for more than one hundred thousand years, so it has been dealt with.
  • cat Rusich 11 May 2020 21: 31 New
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    Long rapier sword - overcoming protection with a knife.
  • Engineer 11 May 2020 22: 06 New
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    In addition to the article, a visual video test of the products of Neil Bridge - the blacksmith from the article.
    Parry. Cutting wood and soft materials
    If someone already gave a link here - I apologize
    1. betta 12 May 2020 10: 09 New
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      What fighting technique should be such soft swords? I can’t imagine.
      1. Engineer 12 May 2020 11: 52 New
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        Most likely, the basic principles of how-everywhere, if possible, mark in unprotected places
        User Mikhailov posted an excellent gem illustrating the principle
      2. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 13: 06 New
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        They are not soft.

        Unlike some Gallic spatha or a Sarmatian sword (and there will be about the same length and width, and the thickness of the blade is even more), the Mycenaean rapier is much more resistant to bending.

        True, this is expressed in the fact that the first two swords you can easily bend on your knee, but it is already difficult.
  • Operator 12 May 2020 03: 09 New
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    Quote: AllBiBek
    not from the Aryans, as the Soviet troops confidently proved doubters 75 years ago

    The vast majority consisting of descendants of the Aryans is a purely concrete coincidence, yeah.

    What is such a South French bronze in Manchuria in 1500 BC - to the francs (carriers of R1b, suddenly) another 2 thousand years with a tail laughing
    1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 12: 48 New
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      Well then, the territory of England can not be called England until the first centuries of ours, because there the Angles have not yet arrived. Bulgaria is also not Bulgaria in terms of territory until the 7th century.

      How do you order to call the ancestral home of the Mighty Aryans in the Black Sea at the time of their Exodus from there? Pont Aryan?
      1. Operator 12 May 2020 13: 51 New
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        According to the Vedas, the Aryan name for the Black Sea steppes is Arya Vazhda (Aryan space).

        The outward resemblance of bronze found on the territory of present-day Southern France and Manchuria still does not mean anything - the main thing is which ethnos its manufacturers belonged to. In Manchuria, the middle of the 2nd millennium BC they were the Aryans (R1a), and not the Manchus (C2), the Chinese (O1), the Altai (N1c1), or the Central Asians (J2).
  • geologist 12 May 2020 08: 21 New
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    As a child, I preferred a short leaf-shaped wooden sword and a round shield in games with elements of antiquity. Our opponents were spearmen with Roman shields made of plywood barrels. My hands were bruised and bruised forever. fending off the spear is still a pleasure. Our task was to tolerate, forge the phalanx for a short time, until friends come from the rear. Then poke the spearmen was a matter of minutes. The short bronze sword was probably very effective against spears as you do not parry the metal, but the wooden shaft, which means there will be no chipping on the sword, and it’s harder to bend a short thick sword. To strike with a sword on the shield, in my opinion, is a meaningless exercise. It’s easier to knock down a shield with a shield.
    1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 12: 55 New
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      He is more likely there to stab into the unprotected side of the one who was able to break your system. Including armor at that time, alochug was not yet. The phalanx is the same.
      They defended themselves not so much as the neighbor on the right. And they expected the same from the neighbor on the left.

      Therefore, the extreme left in each row put the most experienced, there was no one to cover them, because there was also a Corinthian helmet on his head, in it with audibility and visibility - so-so.

      I still think how they also managed to fight to the sounds of flutes, what kind of flutes did they have there ...
      1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 14: 28 New
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        Quote: AllBiBek
        so, after all, there is also a Corinthian helmet on his head, in it with audibility and visibility - so-so.

        When the mobility of the phalanx increased, the Spartans abandoned closed helmets such as Corinthian and began to use open helmets such as pilos, mobility and reaction to teams was more important.

        And they refused heavy protective weapons.
        Quote: AllBiBek
        Therefore, the extreme left in each row put the most experienced,

        Only in my opinion the most experienced were set on the right and the right flank set the tone for the entire phalanx.
        1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 14: 43 New
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          Left. Completely open, and the right hand inside the system.

          Pylos, linothoraxes, and long blades - this is the finish of the Spartan-Athenian graters, and there was not long before the Macedonian.

          And notice, for the millennium, the Hellenic ecumenical woman lives in the Iron Age - and the helmets are still made of bronze.

          The Iron Age is so characteristic in those parts for as many as a thousand years that copper and bronze began to be missed, but iron was still a relative deficit, it is there for a person in life - like bronzes for it in Bronze.
          1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 14: 51 New
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            Quote: AllBiBek
            And notice, for the millennium, the Hellenic ecumenical woman lives in the Iron Age - and the helmets are still made of bronze.

            And not only helmets, as I understand it, most of the protective bronze came.


            1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 15: 33 New
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              Well, that's just for this reason that one can really speak of any sane iron age, really, if it’s been so since the fifth century BC.

              And precisely for this reason, for the past quarter of a century, the term “Eneolithic" has been abandoned all over the world; it has been replaced by chalcolithic, copper-stone age. Although, even in this case, by the logic of things - stone-copper.

              The Bronze Age - it is actually stone-bronze, if you look closely, and the first millennium of the iron - it is bronze-iron. And it is both in everyday life and in war.
              1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 15: 51 New
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                You have a question as a specialist: where in Mycenaean (Minoan) time did you take tin for bronze?
                If with copper everything is more or less clear, at least there are a lot of it in Cyprus, then I was always tormented by the tin issue. When you start asking where the tin was brought from, you usually get 2 answers: 1) from the British Isles (confidently), whence 2 more) apparently from the British Isles (uncertainly). But vague doubts torment me ....
                1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 16: 23 New
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                  And correctly torment.
                  Neither the Mycenaeans nor the Minoans made tin bronzes.

                  In them, they are first arsenic, and then either antimony or lead.

                  Antimony - from the Middle East, arsenic - from the North Caucasus, from the territory of modern Adygea.

                  Tin is already Achaeans, and a little another period.

                  Here it is - yes, British. But not Cornish. From the south of the British Isles, more precisely, I won’t say offhand. There are alluvial deposits there, where it can be washed, than the natives did.
                  1. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 16: 37 New
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                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    Neither the Mycenaeans nor the Minoans made tin bronzes.

                    Thanks I'll know.
                    And from what time did tin bronze begin to pour?
                    1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 17: 03 New
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                      Middle Bronze.
                      The concept is vague, but - centuries from 15 BC. And first in Asia.

                      About three hundred years later, the field bloomed again, mainly in Luristan; google luristan bronzes, they are very beautiful.

                      But they are already after the Bronze Age Holocaust.
      2. Mihaylov 12 May 2020 15: 52 New
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        Quote: AllBiBek
        The phalanx is the same.
        They defended themselves not so much as the neighbor on the right.

        Putting your foot to your foot and your shield resting on a shield,
        Terrible Sultan - O Sultan, helmet - Comrade helmet,
        Tightly closing chest with chest, let everyone fight with enemies.
        Grasping the spear or sword hilt with your hand!
  • geologist 12 May 2020 08: 53 New
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    If you broke the distance and entered close combat, then you shouldn’t hammer on the shield furiously, as the reenactors of the medievalists from the Battle of the Nations, dressed in armor, do. The ancient warrior was naked and therefore had to be stabbed in the neck or in the stomach, chopped thigh or cut tendons on the back of the thigh. The bronze sword did an excellent job of these tasks, but it hardly occurred to anyone to hit the shield or parry another sword. Why break a good weapon, which is convenient to stab and cut soft flesh.
    1. Engineer 12 May 2020 12: 00 New
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      The Battle of the Nations is not a demonstration of history. This is indicated by the participants themselves. There are your own rules
      And so, most likely you are right. Looked for holes in the defense above all
    2. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 13: 02 New
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      It depends on what and when, antiquity is great.

      Notice, for example, several centuries BC, for the same umber, the main focus of the helmet is the protection of the back of the neck. And all because they preferred to work from half a squat and with a short spear.

      Even in antiquity they loved to bother with the protection of their cheeks, it seems that the scars on their faces were not ice.

      They intensely defended the lower leg, but went to war in sandals, and even barefoot. If someone at that time thought of garlic or just stick sharp branches into the ground along the path of the phalanx, they would surely win the battle, and more than one.

      And so on. Strange they lived there by our standards ...
      1. geologist 12 May 2020 13: 18 New
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        A closed face and an umbrella-shaped round shield - protection from small "stone rain". The population of the coastal villages ran away from the Greek pirates on a hill and threw stones. When you attack a hill from the bottom up we say the Panticapaeum fortress (Mithritdat) the face and shoulders will be most vulnerable to stones.
        1. AllBiBek 12 May 2020 13: 27 New
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          And by the way, yes, more than logical. Sling in antiquity was more than common.

          It is strange that she abruptly left the battlefield, it is doubly strange that the bullet bow did not replace her in large numbers; he was always a hunting weapon.
      2. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 15 New
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        Quote: AllBiBek
        Strange they lived there by our standards ...

        Here is the most accurate comment!
      3. geologist 16 May 2020 12: 42 New
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        There is one point in the work of the spear, which many do not know. A long flexible shaft can be used to strike a sharp blow to the head or neck, and the blow will be strengthened due to the flexibility of the tree. If the neck is not protected, then you can break the vertebrae or stun to a complete knockout. Perhaps the ancient helmets were designed for this rather archaic blow, which was probably used by hunters of savannahs and steppes against small animals.
        1. AllBiBek 16 May 2020 13: 20 New
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          The times of the Corinthian type of helmet are RZHV, where the main system is the phalanx, and the main weapon in it is the sarissa. She has so-so flexibility. Moreover, later it became composite and sleeve, under two hands, and without the possibility for the restraint to clearly see what was happening in the area of ​​the tip.

          In Bronze - yes, quite a welcome, hike. There, normally, either a bunch of light hunting spears, or heavy darts.
  • alimov76 12 May 2020 11: 00 New
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    The experiment is interesting, it would be more correct to lay out the link, once you describe it and draw conclusions. And as usual, it is interesting to popularize the topic, but there is so much bullshit and misunderstanding on the topic in fundamental matters, the article is weak, work and work.
    1. kalibr 12 May 2020 16: 13 New
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      Quote: alimov76
      article is weak, work and work.

      Yuri! VO is a popular site. Everything is there for popularity. Can you write better and more interesting and stronger? Please, no one bothers! VO always gladly presents its pages to "fresh" and interesting authors. Show the class, I will learn from you with pleasure!
  • Free wind 13 May 2020 05: 36 New
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    I love knives, I tried to forge it myself, but how can I make such beauty.
  • Jozhin Besbashen 22 June 2020 00: 05 New
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    Everything, of course, is correctly described, but how do experimental archaeologists deal with knowledge of physics, metallurgy, metal science and blacksmithing? Bronze is an alloy consisting of at least two components - copper and tin. Tin is obtained from cassiterite, which must be mined for something - it does not occur in placers, or rather, in small fractions, from which it can be obtained by complex synthesis. How and what was mined - with a copper pickaxe? Suppose we somehow got it and, with a sin, smelted and cast the billet in half ... Forged something with a copper hammer, and the anvil and tongs for forging and heating in the furnace were also copper or bronze? Now imagine the legion and their bronze weapons, shields, helmets, shields. How many kilograms of bronze or copper you need to get, enrich, melt, etc. for one person? And for 10 thousand - the legion (legions reached 50 thousand according to official history) ???
    The Gaisky mining and processing enterprise quietly sobbed aside. But there were also chariots .... In general, one and thousands of fakes about the Bronze Age, in which perfect holes in topazes were drilled with bronze drills. Topaz, I recall, in 8th place in hardness before diamond, bronze and copper in 3.
    Consequently - there was no Bronze Age, there was immediately an Iron Age and this means that humanity did not develop at all in the way that historians and archaeologists came up with and believed. Thank you for the article.
    1. Jozhin Besbashen 22 June 2020 00: 18 New
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      I, like, did not break anything ....
  • Jozhin Besbashen 22 June 2020 00: 35 New
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    The copper and bronze age of false history https://youtu.be/_nxVT5bCOqI
    The Bronze Age, which has never been https://www.tart-aria.info/bronzovyj-vek-kotorogo-nikogda-ne-bylo/
  • Jozhin Besbashen 22 June 2020 00: 40 New
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    Bronze-well, a very controversial story
  • Jozhin Besbashen 22 June 2020 00: 48 New
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    Think about what the practitioner and specialist say
    The idiocy of official history. Obvious inconsistencies and contradictions in historical science. V. Sundakov