Military Review

Creel Committee: Heavy Duty Weapon

210

Painting the engine monument for Victory Day is also an important PR event. People see that he is not forgotten, not abandoned, that there are those to whom the memory of the war is not indifferent. The only bad thing is that not all masked workers ...


But only during the war did it become obvious what enormous results could be achieved through the proper use of propaganda. Here again, unfortunately, all the investigations will have to be carried out on the experience of the enemy side, since this kind of activity on our part was at least modest ... For what we did not do, the enemy did with amazing skill and really brilliant calculation. I myself learned a lot from this hostile military propaganda.
Adolf Gitler


Public Opinion Management Technologies. As noted here in past material, for some reason, in our country, there is some very strange reverence for Dr. Goebbels, who is considered almost a genius of propaganda, but who knows absolutely nothing about those people to whom this false doctor owed all his “successes” and who did not his boss Adolf Hitler himself abstained from studying.

Therefore, today we are somewhat moving away from the everyday life of modern public relations and will turn to the topic, of course, interesting to all readers of "VO" - the theme of war and wartime propaganda. And we will reveal the sources of “genius” of the same Goebbels, who didn’t come up with anything himself, but simply read the necessary books and adapt them to what was written for himself.


But this is also our today's Russia. Poster in one of the northern cities of the Russian Federation. He is wearing a Finnish soldier Klemet Jouni Jeremias Halonen and a reindeer in Lapland, May 4, 1944. But our poster, on May 9

In a book published in 1920 entitled How We Advertised America, its author George Creel, who led the Committee on Public Information during World War I, described in detail what principles of PR and advertising he and his people used to so that the Americans would want to fight against Germany. And since he succeeded, Krill’s success showed people like Hitler and Goebbels what can be achieved by using information to influence the masses.


That's what it was like at that time, George Creel

On April 14, 1917, President Woodrow Wilson ordered the creation of a Public Information Committee. It included the Secretary of State, the Minister of War and the Minister of the Navy fleetand his director was a well-known liberal journalist George Creel. "House of Truth" - so he called this organization. And he received excellent funding. And it started! What he did for that time became an unprecedented phenomenon, and in fact it was the first experience of the total control of public opinion.

Creel Committee: Heavy Duty Weapon

“If even less literature were rejected and advised on literature that takes into account Russian realities, preferably in an accessible language, then you wouldn’t have a price at all,” wrote the reader of VO, Mr. Hagen. Well, if so, we continue recommendations on the relevant literature. For example, we can recommend this one, a book repeatedly published in the Russian Federation on PR. By the way, a link to it in a conversation, especially if you remember the authors and learn to pronounce their name without hesitation, there is already a good PR in itself. Well, if you also read it ...

First of all, Krill decided that propaganda should go through all conceivable channels of information. Let there be newspapers, there will be cinema, radio and telegraph, but we also use posters and signs, rumors and oral presentations. Any moment of person-to-person communication is an opportunity to “sell the war”. All you need is to figure out how to put yourself in the service this moment. However, he didn’t invent anything new again ... In the novel “Pharaoh” by the Polish writer Boleslav Prus, written back in 1895, Prince Hiram tells the merchant Dagon how to influence Prince Ramses so that he starts the war with Assyria: “You must make sure that no one knows that you want war, but that every heir’s cook wants a war, every hairdresser wants a war, that all attendants, porters, scribes, officers, charioteers — that they all want war with Assyria and that the heir hears about from morning till night, and even when he sleeps. ”


By the way, although the Polish film "Pharaoh" refers to the genre in historical to films, it is quite possible to recommend it to PR specialists as a tool for managing public opinion. Priest Herhor there is especially versed in it ...

In order to provide himself with such “scribes,” Krill lobbied for a presidential decree that advertising workers should be credited with logistics, so now it’s easier to mobilize the Committee. Newspapers were supposed to provide him with their pages for free. The most famous journalists, advertisers, and artists were involved in the work.


Of course, it would be more interesting to read George Creel himself and we have the opportunity to buy this book of his in Russia today, but it is in English ...

For 750 well-known cartoonists of the country, the Weekly Newsletter for Cartoonists began to be released. It printed ideas and headlines on the topic of the day, artists had to visualize them, and newspapers print. Information was distributed by the Committee to another 600 foreign newspapers in 19 languages, news transmitted through radio transmitters on ships of the American Navy.


The history of PR in the relevant specialties is not taught today, unless optional. But there is an interesting textbook on it by R. Yu. Pochekaeva

V.I. Lenin has not yet uttered his catch phrase that cinema is the most important art for us, and Krill has already contacted Hollywood and has actually put it under the control of the KOI. Pathos films were shot: “Crusaders of Pershing”, “Response of America”, “Under the Four Flags”, etc. A special person was engaged in the promotion of films; he also wrote reviews on them. Under a pseudonym, of course.

Remember Soviet-era grocery kits where scarce buckwheat was sold with a load of sprats in a tomato? So patriotic American films in the world market were sold in exactly the same way. Want a top movie? Fine! But without 2-3 “our” tapes, we won’t sell the movie you need. And so that the impression percentage is appropriate. And then put another Pershing on the shelf ... There was another very tough condition: do you want our films? Then do not dare to show German! Full, so to speak, freedom of choice, right? So KOI not only provided Hollywood with orders, but also provided him with a profitable sale of its products.


Those who buy books at the expense of office rather than personal funds (or, for example, as a gift to the boss!) Can recommend this book by the author, written in collaboration with Daria Egorova, owner of her own center for teaching the Japanese language. She has been to Japan more than once, so everything is absolutely accurate with regard to the texture. It is interesting that the Japanese in the field of advertising and PR borrowed everything from the Americans, including terms!

Another very effective example of CFI was the so-called “four-minute”. Krill believed (and it is) that people trust information transmitted verbally more than what is written. That is why the rumors are so tenacious. And so, a special “oratory department” was created in the KOI, for which 75 people worked, among whom were a variety of people - volunteers. They were selected according to the principle "does a person know how to speak and does he look convincing." The task of the Four Minutes, as Krill said, was to “manage ongoing conversations.” Each of these 000 had to deliver a four-minute speech to his audience several times a week, while preaching the justice of the US military aspirations, and, of course, condemning anti-war and any socialist sentiments in the most unconditional way.


Another book as part of a team of authors. Julia Manannikova taught sociology and in the book was responsible for the sociological part, Svetlana Shpakovskaya - media planning, but the author got “everything else”

To help the propagandists were issued memos: “Why are we fighting”, “Exposure of German propaganda”, “The lies of the enemy and our truth”, “In support of moral principles and morale”, “Threat of democracy”. The topic was divided into 5-7 parts - individual speeches + interesting additional information was given. Those ideas that should have been paid special attention were emphasized + and typical examples of such speeches were also applied. Speakers were instructed to show enthusiasm, and the quality of the speeches was assessed by the chairman of the local KOI cell. Those whose speeches were boring and their eyes did not burn were ruthlessly expelled. Everything is just as it was with us, the lecturers of the OK and RK CPSU, in my time in this service. You speak, and the party organizer sits and writes down what you say, how you say, whether you mumble, whether you adequately answer the workers' questions, if there is insincerity, and if you were caught on “something like that”, two, then more the audience could not see how their ears.

Moreover, the task of the “four-minute” was also that they provoked conversations with their speeches, and that they themselves controlled them and performed the functions of political investigation, that is, to identify and inform people with anti-war sentiments. They did the following with the latter: at first they invited them for a conversation, at which they explained the erroneousness of their behavior. As a rule, in 80% of cases this worked. There remained 20% of the “stubborn”, who were usually treated differently: the committee recommended employers to dismiss them under various pretexts.


Collective textbook of the Department of Philosophy and Social Communications of Penza State University. Moreover, it is written just the way it is necessary to write such books today - simply, understandably, with concrete examples. There are many recommendations in it, which feature film to watch, which fiction book to read, what exercises to develop one or another skill in a word - in a word, everything is there ...

The work of adults was also duplicated by youth groups: “junior speakers” from primary and secondary schools. Under the guidance of loyal teachers and principals, schools held contests in oratory on the topics outlined in the National School Service Bulletin. They were discussed at the classroom in such a way that children would then be very likely to discuss them with their parents at home.

Accordingly, the “Brunswick color speakers” worked in the “colored” areas to encompass all, absolutely all social and national backgrounds in the United States.

Public relations specialists already realized the role of emotions and moved from the concept of "reporting facts" to the concept of "marking in the heart, not in the head." True, George Creel himself has always denied that the Committee’s activities are “emotional”, but in fact it was just that.

Accordingly, the US state machine supported the Committee not only financially, but, very importantly, legally. June 15, 1917 in the United States adopted the "Law on Combating Spying", and in 1918 also the "Law on Subversion". The first encouraged the censorship of anti-war ideas, and the second any criticism of the Wilson administration was declared unlawful.


What is a PR design? And this is a complex work of smart people ... Because stupid people first come up with a name for a store, restaurant, create a new product, and only then they hire advertisers and PR people to “PR” and advertise them. But we must work together. To do what is easy to promote by means of PR and advertising. And how to do this, this book shows specific examples. That is, it has a minimum of tedious theories and a lot of practical recommendations

Well, only 75 Creel volunteers, who supported the war with their four-minute speeches, read over 000 million speeches, covering an audience of 7,5 million people living in 314 cities and towns. Many of Kril’s publications were published in national languages.

For example, the pamphlet Warm Words for Foreigners was published in Czech, Polish, German, Italian, Hungarian and Russian. There were even such special publications as German Socialists and War.

And, of course, it was KOI who prepared the texts of the leaflets, which were then dumped on the heads of German soldiers. Moreover, knowing about their poor food supply, especially at the end of the war, the first thing the flyers said was that if they surrendered to the Allies, they would be treated well and that their diet would include “beef, white bread, potatoes, beans, raisins, real grain coffee, milk, butter, tobacco, etc. ” And all because the rations of ordinary German soldiers were so bad that they often said that kommisbrot (German: “soldier’s bread”) was baked from dust collected on the floors of army bakeries.

A lot of useful information was obtained in prisoner of war camps, where special agents who knew the German language were sent. They argued with prisoners about the war and thus found out which arguments against them were most effective. As the saying goes, a fool sows words, a clever one harvests them. The Germans did the same. In conversations with them, the PR people learned which newspapers they consider the most truthful, which Reichstag deputy they trust more than others, and why. Then all this was compared with information received through diplomatic and intelligence channels; then a draft leaflet was drawn up, it was approved, and the leaflet was printed.


The last among the three textbooks of the Department of Philosophy and Social Communications of PSU. Here, in a simple and understandable language it is written how to write in online publications and how online journalism differs from traditional journalism, well, and advertising, of course. Everything is written on practical experience, including that obtained here, on "IN"!

Here is the name of one of them: "Daytime rations of American soldiers: German prisoners of war receive the same rations." But this is for especially hungry and hungry for normal food: "Beef - 567 grams, potatoes and other fresh vegetables - 567 grams", as well as: "Coffee beans - 31,75 grams." It was noticed that eight out of ten prisoners captured by the Americans found American leaflets in their pockets promising the Germans good food. Moreover, in just three months of the war in 1918, Americans dropped about three million such leaflets over German positions.


Many people care about such a thing as “black PR”. Something will be told about him here. But you can recommend this book. Its main advantage is its accessibility. The circulation was large ...

But when the war ended, the Creel committee was dissolved ... at 24 o’clock! The need for it has disappeared - why spend the extra money?

Well, now let's summarize. All that many of the not too knowledgeable people traditionally attribute to Dr. Goebbels, long before him and with tremendous effectiveness was used against Germany already in the First World War. The experience of the information war was not hidden by anyone and was not hidden primarily because its effectiveness was directly related to the level of economic power of the country. To repeat what was done by the Creel committee in the USA in this area was only for the USA, and all other countries could create only something similar and nothing more. Contemporaries testified that in the USA such a truly comprehensive and effective propaganda machine had never been launched before. And I must say bluntly that Goebbels was just an apprentice next to such luminaries of public opinion management as Krill, Lippman, Burneys and Ivy Lee ... To become something big, he had neither the corresponding education, nor imagination, nor finance, although the Gestapo and SD worked for him, in turn. However, we are still going to deal with a concrete analysis of his mistakes.

To be continued ...
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Information in the community. The weapon is sharper than a sword!
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  1. Basil50
    Basil50 12 May 2020 05: 26 New
    +5
    More briefly is MARK TWEN, who wrote a story about an elected local politician.
    And about how to lie it was worked out in England many years ago, when they had just created a newspaper. Some methods can be seen in the television movie - * Glass of water *. There, Lord Bolenbrock, for the sake of achieving his goals, * threw * a lot * into public opinion.
    1. Mitroha
      Mitroha 12 May 2020 06: 08 New
      0
      Propaganda is a monologue that seeks not an answer, but an echo.

      Wisten Hugh Oden

      Not even three days have passed since May 9, and in the morning, at VO, I already read the article about propaganda с quoting Hitler in an epigraph. Если подходить с точки зрения пропаганды, то мне это видится "танцем на костях" всех погибших в ВОВ.
      A very unfortunate choice of the author of the epigraph to the topic of the article.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Mitroha
          Mitroha 12 May 2020 07: 19 New
          +7
          Check with an ophthalmologist. Obviously something with eyesight.

          Essentially nothing to answer?
          1. kalibr
            12 May 2020 07: 34 New
            +5
            This is the being. No need to look for devils in the censer!
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 14 May 2020 11: 29 New
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              No need to look for devils in the censer!

              You famously started to PR yourself at VO - I hope advertising of copyrighted books will increase the level of their sales. Are they in stock in bundles?
              1. kalibr
                14 May 2020 13: 47 New
                +1
                Quote: ccsr
                Are they in stock in bundles?

                Почему сразу Вы думаете о плохом? Мои книги не залеживаются. Хочу, чтобы люди успели прочитать, пока не закончились. Книга "Танки парадоксальные..." переиздавалась трижды, "Умрем под Москвой..." дважды... "ПР-дизайн и ПР-продвижение" первый раз вышла в 2011 и стала редкостью тут же. Вот я и хочу, чтобы люди успели. Мне пишут, что даже в Казахстане их продают и покупают, а оптовики не будут возить так далеко то, что не продается.
                Вы просто специфики не знаете и так вот по глупому пытаетесь меня поддеть. А специфика такая: сейчас в ВШ преподаватель не может работать не имея утвержденной учебной программы, выложенной в Сеть. И каждый год она должна обновляться. Список литературы ОБЯЗАН состоять из книг не старее 5 лет. То есть с момента выхода моих книг преподаватели ПР и рекламы просто ОБЯЗАНЫ в течении 5-ти лет вставлять их как НОВИНКИ и рекомендовать студентам. Иначе им не утвердят программу. А в списке лит-ры все проверяется по гиперссылкам. И что легче всего проверить проверяющим? Конечно, литературу: нажал, посмотрел... А студенты обязаны знать лит-ру, что у них в учебном плане! Круг замкнулся таким образом. А Вы мне в "пачках на складах". Какая-то из них вообще уже по-моему распродана...Речь идет о переиздании, "дополненное, улучшенное издание". Не пишите на будущее если не знаете!
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 14 May 2020 19: 23 New
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  The circle closed in this way.

                  Вот и я о том, что у вас круг в науке получается, а исторический материализм учил нас что развитие должно идти по спирали. Но раз ваша деятельность требует публикации книг, которые вряд ли хоть один студент прочитает до конца, то флаг вам в руки. У меня сын студент "бауманки" и у него учебники шестидесятых - восьмидесятых и нулевых годов. И что-то их преподавательский состав не парится от того что они используют на первом курсе то, что издавалась ещё во времена СССР.
                  1. kalibr
                    14 May 2020 20: 59 New
                    +1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    У меня сын студент "бауманки" и у него учебники шестидесятых - восьмидесятых и нулевых годов. И что-то их преподавательский состав не парится от того что они используют на первом курсе то, что издавалась ещё во времена СССР.

                    Так и мы использовали старые учебники. Для этого есть раздел: Дополнительная литература. Но как раз мои учебники студенты до конца дочитывают. От них просто нельзя оторваться. Это правда. Они написаны как раз так, как это сегодня читает молодежь! Там есть кино, есть "художка", есть интересные практические задания. И потом... в высшей математике, физике... что преподают на первом курсе у техников мало что изменилось с того времени, а у нас перемены идут очень быстро. Общество быстро меняется... А законы природы - нет!
          2. Stas157
            Stas157 12 May 2020 07: 47 New
            13
            Quote: Mitroha
            Less than three days after May 9, and in the morning, in VO, I already read propaganda article cited by Hitler in an epigraph.

            You are frankly pulling an owl about Hitler’s propaganda. An article about PR technology. It is not worth any mention of Hitler to be considered his advertisement.
            1. Mitroha
              Mitroha 12 May 2020 08: 07 New
              +1
              I do not pull anyone, although individuals should be. I express my opinion, which is as follows:
              Quoting ≠ mention.
              Citation of works direct reference to familiarization with them. The VO site is a fairly well-known and authoritative resource. A viewer with a burning eye: an authoritative website, citing, acquaintance with the works, even if 1 out of 1000 is imbued with his ideas, this is already a victory of fascism propaganda. Exaggerated of course, figuratively. But propaganda works like that
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 14 May 2020 21: 19 New
              +1
              Quote: Stas157
              You are frankly pulling an owl about Hitler’s propaganda. An article about PR technology.

              При Сталине тоже было огромное количество пропагандистов - почему бы их работы не использовать для оценки успехов советского политпропа? По крайней мере идеями социализма восхищались многие люди в мире, а вот идеи национал-социализма привели к краху нескольких государств. По "гамбургскому счёту" советский политпроп оказался гораздо выше чем гитлеровский - вот его и надо использовать при оценке PR-технологий.
      2. Stas157
        Stas157 12 May 2020 07: 41 New
        +3
        in our country for some reason there is some very strange reverence in front of Dr. Goebbels, who is considered almost a genius of propaganda

        And this is not at all accidental. But our leaders and officials have long overtaken their teacher. By PR technologies and self-promotion they are already unsurpassed masters.
    2. avg
      avg 12 May 2020 13: 18 New
      +3
      Some methods can be seen in the television movie - * Glass of water *. There, Lord Bohlenbrock, for the sake of achieving his goals, has * thrown * a lot of things into public opinion.

      А можно просто посмотреть наши фильмы снятые за последние годы. Вот навскидку, лишь для примера: "Шрафбат"; "Сволочи"; "Паршивые овцы"; Сталинград" Боднарчука; "Зелемха открывает глаза". Да их десятки. А потом удивляемся, откуда у многих молодых людей такой циничный, односторонний взгляд на нашу историю.
      1. kalibr
        12 May 2020 15: 42 New
        +1
        Quote: avg
        And then we wonder where many young people get such a cynical, one-sided view of our history.

        Александр! А вот раньше в нашем государстве был не циничный взгляд, так?Так! Но где оно, это государство? Тю-тю, накрылось... Так может быть при циничном "не накроется"?
      2. not main
        not main 12 May 2020 23: 42 New
        0
        Quote: avg
        Some methods can be seen in the television movie - * Glass of water *. There, Lord Bohlenbrock, for the sake of achieving his goals, has * thrown * a lot of things into public opinion.

        А можно просто посмотреть наши фильмы снятые за последние годы. Вот навскидку, лишь для примера: "Шрафбат"; "Сволочи"; "Паршивые овцы"; Сталинград" Боднарчука; "Зелемха открывает глаза". Да их десятки. А потом удивляемся, откуда у многих молодых людей такой циничный, односторонний взгляд на нашу историю.

        Александр! Вы смотрите только такие фильмы? Хорошо, может не самые последние, но на уровне тех, что Вы предъявили. Итак: "Мы из будущего" "август 44" "Июнь 41" да тот же "последний бронепоезд" или сериал "снайпер"? Это на эмоциях (или на вскидку)! А так конечно я то же многим не доволен особенно "шедеврами" наших мастеров... .
    3. sniperino
      sniperino 15 May 2020 18: 05 New
      0
      Quote: Vasily50
      And about how to lie it was worked out in England many years ago, when they had just created a newspaper.
      Science does not stand still
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 12 May 2020 08: 29 New
        -1
        kalibr (Vyacheslav)
        I did not give you personal permission to publish my personal data, in this case this photo.
        Then remove all your photos from the Internet, they are in the public domain and it is NEVER written that they are forbidden to use. Do you understand the freedom of speech? So do not blame me.
        You run into big trouble.
        And you?
        Remove it immediately and apologize!
        Apologize to you, DO NOT WAIT !!!
        Article 152.1 of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation.
        And why the hell do you post your photos on the Internet? Here from the Internet and demand that all your photos be deleted. What claims to me?
        We read carefully, and not as usual you read:
        3. Если изображение гражданина, полученное или используемое с нарушением пункта 1 настоящей статьи, распространено в сети "Интернет", гражданин вправе требовать удаления этого изображения, а также пресечения или запрещения дальнейшего его распространения.
        (item 3 is introduced by the Federal law from 02.07.2013 N 142-ФЗ)
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 08: 46 New
          +5
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          Then remove all your photos from the Internet, they are in the public domain and it is NEVER written that they are forbidden to use.

          So, Alexander! Know that a lot of things have been posted on the Internet. But uploading other people's photos, even if they are there, IT IS NECESSARY TO ASK FOR PERMISSIONS of the person who is shown on them. This is the law, and not I came up with it. It’s not your fault that you live according to concepts, you have to end with this. I can post my photos as much as I want. You are not! Or yes, but asking permission. Available explained?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 May 2020 10: 22 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            a lot of things have been posted on the Internet. But uploading other people's photos, even if they are there, IT IS NECESSARY TO ASK FOR PERMISSIONS of the person who is shown on them. This is the law, and not I came up with it. It’s not your fault that you live according to concepts, you have to end with this. I can post my photos as much as I want. You are not!


            recourse
            I’m not sure that this is so: if a person has uploaded his data to PUBLIC space, it means that he agrees a priori and even wants to be known to as many people as possible.

            If someone else has replicated them (without comment, naturally), then he contributes to this goal.

            The use of this data in any other context, of course, must be agreed, IMHO
            1. kalibr
              12 May 2020 11: 18 New
              -3
              Quote: Olgovich
              The use of this data in any other context, of course, must be agreed, IMHO

              That's it!
        2. kalibr
          12 May 2020 08: 48 New
          0
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          You run into big trouble.
          And you?

          But I do not violate the laws of the Russian Federation.
        3. Basil50
          Basil50 12 May 2020 16: 05 New
          +2
          Alexander
          YOU should demand a lot of money from this populist (Shpakovsky) for advertising his personality. Refuses to sue, or you say, for free I wanted to get an advertising banner with my own * patret *. The fact that he was then embarrassed with the help of the VO administrator was his own business.
          Was there an advertisement? It was.
          Let him pay.
        4. BAI
          BAI 12 May 2020 16: 46 New
          +3
          This is a very interesting question.
          1. The author has repeatedly stated on the site that he is an elite. Then:
          !! NEW EXPLANATIONS OF THE Supreme Court (RFPVS of the Russian Federation of June 23.06.2015, 25 No. XNUMX):
          Without the consent of a citizen, the publication and use of his image is permissible when there is a public interest, in particular if such a citizen is a public figure (holds a state or municipal post, plays a significant role in public life in the field of politics, economics, art, sports or any other field), and the publication and use of the image is in connection with political or public debate or interest in the person is socially significant.

          Those. either the author forgets that he is an elite, or - agrees to the use of the image.
          2. We must look at the rules of the site on which the photo is posted. Because:
          However, the circumstances of a citizen posting his image on the Internet may indicate that such person expresses consent to further use of this image, for example, if it is provided for by the terms of use of the site, on which the citizen posted such an image.

          3. You can give a link to the image. No questions at all. And give here and now. What is bazaar about?
          1. kalibr
            12 May 2020 17: 43 New
            -2
            Quote: BAI
            The author has repeatedly stated on the site that he is an elite.

            Не надо путать понятия. Речь идет о признанных представителях политической элиты общества, искусства, спорта. Признанных общественностью таковыми. Я никогда не заявлял, что принадлежу к чему-то такому. Напротив, всегда подчеркивал, что есть много людей более умных и талантливых, знающих и умелых, чем я. Но... есть и много, людей... худших во всех этих отношениях. И разве это не так? И право себя оценивать не связано с публичной дееспособностью. Вам это понятно? В любом случае принято у живых людей, находящихся в реальной доступности (как я, например), спрашивать: не против ли они цитирования их текста или размещения их фотографии. Я спрашиваю всегда, и это свидетельствует об уважении к этим людям. Отсутствие оного в моем отношении заставляет меня вспомнить очень хороший принцип: " Друзьям все - врагам закон!"
            1. ANB
              ANB 14 May 2020 23: 25 New
              0
              . We are talking about recognized representatives of the political elite of society, art, and sport. Recognized by the public as such. I never stated that I belong to something like that.

              Too late. Statements of a recognized person do not mean anything.
              Do you write and publish books?
              Do your articles come out, do people read them? I've read all your articles.
              That's it. Recognized as significant. :)
              PS. I will not get into the topic of your dispute about photographs.
              1. kalibr
                15 May 2020 07: 03 New
                +1
                Well, since you think so ... I don’t think so, but you have every right to have an opinion.
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        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 08: 47 New
          +1
          This is a lesson for you, Alexander! The law is strong, but it's law! I advise everyone to treat the provisions of the legislation of the Russian Federation carefully. Ignorance of the laws does not exempt from liability!
        2. Basil50
          Basil50 12 May 2020 08: 54 New
          +5
          Why was my comment deleted? Am I indecently speaking? Or did the question of the shyness of the author hurt? So the author himself laid out to himself not only photos but also his very often changing * views on life *.
          And if the author is taken on a salary, will he become a staunch supporter of the paid idea? Or how?
          Surely the author will refuse part-time jobs?
          1. kalibr
            12 May 2020 09: 11 New
            +1
            Quote: Vasily50
            So the author himself laid out to himself not only photos

            You can do it yourself!
  3. Same lech
    Same lech 12 May 2020 05: 46 New
    +1
    Thanks to the author for the article ... very interesting ... the information war against Russia is in full swing according to all the described manuals ... he personally was convinced of this.
    What remains for us ... I think the weapons that the enemy uses against us must be turned against him in a more sophisticated form ... I have no doubt that we can defeat the Anglo-Saxon media using their weaknesses.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 12 May 2020 06: 42 New
      +7
      Ничего не помогает вражеской пропаганде так, как свои непрофессионалы, казнокрады и презирающее свой народ люди, преклоняющиеся перед иностранщиной, пробравшиеся во власть и озабоченные только своим благополучием, набиванием своих карманов и пиаром среди западных "друзей". Собственно, когда такие люди во власти, то для расшатывания устоев государства и для роста антигосударственных настроений в народной среде и никакой "пропаганды" не нужно.
    2. sniperino
      sniperino 15 May 2020 18: 29 New
      0
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      weapons that the enemy uses against us must be turned against him in a more sophisticated form
      Mass propaganda lies mainly to its citizens, so that the authorities have the support of their lies to an external audience and their further actions. Do you think that we lack sophisticated lies for complete happiness? We put on pans, but the joy of the new and more reliable (than the non-brothers) super-pans from those who don’t are likely to increase.
  4. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 06: 12 New
    +5
    in our country for some reason there is some very strange reverence for Dr. Goebbels
    For people like the author of the article, it’s possible, but many in our country call Goebbels bullies.
    Remember Soviet-era grocery kits where scarce buckwheat was sold with a load of sprats in a tomato? So patriotic American films in the world market were sold in exactly the same way. Want a top movie? Fine!
    Какой мировой рынок "кино" в в 1917 году, какой иддиот в мире стал бы брать фильмы с нагрузкой? Что за бредни?! Чисто внутриамериканская акция была. Ну и проднаборы приплести уж обязательно надо было, чисто по геббельсовски. И это не считая того, что автор перепутал проднаборы с товарами с "нагрузкой".
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 07: 19 New
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Какой мировой рынок "кино" в в 1917 году, какой иддиот в мире стал бы брать фильмы с нагрузкой? Что за бредни?! Чисто внутриамериканская акция была.

      You just don’t know. Do not write if you do not know! Already in the 17th, American films were actively screened in Europe.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 08: 17 New
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        Do not write if you do not know!

        Quote: kalibr
        Already in the 17th American films were actively shown in Europe
        What, and sold strictly with the load? Nonsense on the blue eye, then do not write, we are not your students!
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 08: 26 New
          +1
          Vladimir! I do not know whether they were strictly sold or not strictly. On the blue eye or on the red ... And not to my students nor ... other ... local .... I do not write nonsense. I don’t have a habit; remember, insert something from yourself into a serious text. The fact that they were sold so abroad was taken from the relevant literature. These books are listed here, including those that describe the work of the Creel committee.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 08: 48 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            And not to my students nor ... other ... local .... I do not write nonsense
            As you write:
            So patriotic American films in the world market were sold in exactly the same way. Want a top movie? Fine! But without 2-3 “our” tapes, we won’t sell the movie you need. And so that the impression percentage is appropriate. And then put another Pershing on the shelf ...
            Утверждать, что американцы ПРОДАВАЛИ за рубеж некое "топовое кино"строго с нагрузкой в виде внутренних агиток, да ещё и с контролем процента показа - это глупость глупейшая, уж извините.
            1. kalibr
              12 May 2020 09: 08 New
              +2
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Утверждать, что американцы ПРОДАВАЛИ за рубеж некое "топовое кино"строго с нагрузкой в виде внутренних агиток, да ещё и с контролем процента показа - это глупость глупейшая, уж извините.

              Очень может быть. Но из песни слова не выкинешь. Еще раз напоминаю, я ничего не придумываю, а как можно точнее передаю содержания оригинальных изданий. От меня идет разве что: "Здравствуйте, дети!", "До свиданья,дети!"
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 09: 20 New
                +2
                Quote: kalibr
                and as accurately as possible convey the contents of the original editions
                What in the original is this comparison of food sets with buckwheat and agitation for domestic use in the load from the cinema for sale abroad was? Let me not believe it. But there is no faith in this, then how to believe outright stupidity.
                Remember Soviet-era grocery kits where scarce buckwheat was sold with a load of sprats in a tomato? So patriotic American films on the world market were sold in the same way
                1. kalibr
                  12 May 2020 10: 37 New
                  0
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Let me disbelieve.

                  Do not believe it! All publications are in front of you. By the way, Catlip Scott has this about it ... But I really inserted the sets about them, for clarity. And in my opinion, it turned out well.
    2. sniperino
      sniperino 15 May 2020 19: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      what idiot in the world would take movies with a load?
      В мировом кинопрокате это практикуется. Сейчас - не знаю, но наши в 90-х брали "нагрузку" и не на выбор, чтобы скинуть цену на кассовый фильм - статью читал.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 15 May 2020 19: 17 New
        0
        Quote: sniperino
        Наши в 90-х брали "нагрузку"
        Cinema was already killed in the 90s, but not in 1917.
  5. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 12 May 2020 06: 33 New
    +4
    Handsome ... so under such an article to squeeze your ads .. oh no, co-authored .. books .... a collective author, and yourself to write to Japan yourself? No ... we are co-authors .. like that, an ardent propagandist communist became a merchant))) Penza now I do not associate with drisya Will, but exclusively with Shpakovsky ... and every day the main article squeezes when it has time ???
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 12 May 2020 06: 44 New
      +3
      Quote: Andrey VOV
      every day the main article squeezes when it has time ???

      I suspect that he has a family contract. Grandfather, grandmother, daughter, granddaughter, bug ... laughing
      1. kalibr
        12 May 2020 07: 20 New
        -4
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        I suspect that he has a family contract. Grandfather, grandmother, daughter, granddaughter, bug ...

        About the fact that your intellect lies in the parameters, we have long ago found out.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 12 May 2020 08: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          About the fact that your intellect lies in the parameters, we have long ago found out.

          Often trynd about my intellect. You look, and everyone will remember. By the way, is this technique also in PR textbooks?
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  6. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 May 2020 07: 28 New
    -8
    To repeat what was done by the Creel committee in the USA in this area was only for the USA, and all other countries could create only something similar and nothing more.


    And we have?

    1934 г, только что в стране умерли миллионы людей от голода , а "Веселые ребята " вовсю поют "Легко на сердце..." и "тюх-тюх-тюх, разгорелся наш утюг...". призывая радоваться всю страну...
    1. Plantagenet
      Plantagenet 12 May 2020 07: 52 New
      +3
      "Кто-то вспомнил Рождество сорок четвертого года, пять лет назад, тогдашнее наступление в Арденнах, которым немцы единодушно гордились как античным: побежденные гнали победителей. И вспомнили, что в тот сочельник Германия слушала Геббельса.
      Rubin, with one hand fiddling with the cuts of his stiff black beard, confirmed. He remembers this speech. She succeeded. Goebbels spoke with such mental difficulty, as if dragging all the hardships under which Germany fell. He probably already had a hunch about his end.
      Seeking, as it were, an imposer for Rubin, Simmel said that there were hundreds of firework speakers in Reich; I wonder why the Bolsheviks are set to coordinate texts in advance and read speeches on paper.
      The reproach came the more offensive than the more just. It was not to explain to the enemy and the murderer that we had eloquence, but what, but the party committees etched him."
      A.I.Solzhenitsyn "In the first circle"

      PS Highlighted by me Plantagenet.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 08: 22 New
        +3
        Quote: Plantagenet
        The reproach came the more offensive than the more just. It wasn’t to explain to the enemy and the killer that we had eloquence, but what, but party committees etched him

        Soljn will not lie, of course. Lying to the nonsense, he is a master, he was, they even gave the Nobel. A little earlier than Obama. )))
        1. Plantagenet
          Plantagenet 12 May 2020 08: 45 New
          +5
          That is, eloquence is not etched. But what about the massive repression of speakers? Yes, even take the same comrade. Trotsky. After all, the speaker was magnificent. As lit before the revolutionary troops. And the rest were not bad. Yes, somewhere all gone ...
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 10: 47 New
            -2
            Quote: Plantagenet
            But what about the massive repression of speakers?
            Хаха, это такая "категория врагов народа" что ли - оратор, что бы их массово репрессировать? То что на митингах люди зажигали и зажигают это что не ораторы? И Троцкого как репрессированного за ораторские способности приплести, это зачёт из зачётов. Ещё Гитлера с Геббельсом забыли, правда они саморепрессированные, но строго за ораторское искусство, да.
            1. Plantagenet
              Plantagenet 12 May 2020 12: 47 New
              0
              "То что на митингах люди зажигали и зажигают это что не ораторы?"

              It’s not enough to light, it is necessary that people follow the speaker.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 49 New
                -2
                They followed the political leaders.
                1. Plantagenet
                  Plantagenet 12 May 2020 12: 50 New
                  -3
                  When is the back of the detachment machine guns?
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 58 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Plantagenet
                    When is the back of the detachment machine guns?
                    Ооо, ясно понятно. Военное дело и историю ВОВ по "Штрафбатам" и Солжу изучали. Для справки, пулемёты, в норме при наступлении, ВСЕГДА несколько позади пехоты.
                    1. Plantagenet
                      Plantagenet 12 May 2020 13: 06 New
                      -1
                      b) form 3 - 5 armored detachments (up to 200 people in each) within the army, put them in the immediate rear of unstable divisions and bind them in the event of panic and indiscriminate detachment of the division into alarmists and cowards and help honest fighters divisions to fulfill their duty to the Motherland;

                      People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR
                      I. STALIN
                      Order of the NPO of the USSR of 28.07.1942 No. 227
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. Plantagenet
                        Plantagenet 12 May 2020 13: 16 New
                        0
                        "У вас ума не хватает,"

                        If you are so smart, why are you talking to fools with us?
                        I gave you the order number for the detachments. Read it all. There it is written why they were introduced (mass desertion). people didn’t believe the political instructors and massively retreated the whole 41st year. And then also the 42nd to the Volga River.
                      3. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 13: 30 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Plantagenet
                        There it is written why they were introduced (mass desertion). people didn’t believe political leaders and massively retreated for the whole 41st year
                        In the army there are from 7 to 15 divisions (up to 100 people), are there 000-600 divisions on them? And how, how can machine guns of detachments of troops help with an attack? You didn’t get it.
                        Quote: Plantagenet
                        Read it all
                        Where in the order about mass desertion?
                      4. Operator
                        Operator 12 May 2020 13: 34 New
                        +1
                        And since 1943, it means that political leaders were sharply believed - the stars didn’t agree that year laughing
                      5. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 14: 22 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Operator
                        And since 1943, it means that political leaders were sharply believed

                        Yes, even in 41-42 near Moscow without political detachments, political officers alone managed. )))
                    2. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 12 May 2020 14: 36 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Plantagenet
                      I gave you the order number for the detachments. Read it all. There it is written why they were introduced (mass desertion) people didn’t believe the political instructors and massively retreated the whole 41st year. And then also the 42nd to the Volga River.

                      Did you mean these lines?
                      There is a lack of order and discipline in companies, battalions, regiments, divisions, in tank units, in air squadrons. This is now our main drawback. We must establish the strictest order and iron discipline in our army if we want to save the situation and defend our Homeland.
                      It is impossible to endure further commanders, commissioners, political workers, whose units and formations voluntarily leave combat positions. You can’t tolerate further when commanders, commissioners, political workers allow several alarmists to determine the position on the battlefield, to bring other fighters into retreat and open the front to the enemy.

                      Прочитайте приказ теперь вы. Если найдете хоть одно упоминание о массовом дезертирстве или недоверии "политрукам" - значит мы читаем разные приказы. Или у вас редакция этого приказа специально для таких как вы.
                      As it does not sound corny, but in 1941 and in 1942. and in subsequent fighters and commanders of the Red Army showed mass heroism and self-sacrifice, about which there are numerous memories written by both our and Germans.
                      And by the way, if you decide to judge the role of the commissar, political instructor, political leader, as well as the role of a military counterintelligence officer on publications of the 90s or on some modern films, where they are mostly dumb, fat, always drunk and sexually preoccupied sadists, then I sincerely regret you. For this means that you have been badly hit on the head and you have to live with such content in your head.
                2. fighter angel
                  fighter angel 13 May 2020 11: 59 New
                  0
                  Ну если уж правде в глаза смотреть про "заградотряды", ТО ПОЯВИЛИСЬ-ТО ОНИ НЕ В РККА, И НЕ ВО ВРЕМЯ ВЕЛИКОЙ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННОЙ!
                  А впервые их в новейшей истории СФОРМИРОВАЛ И ПРИМЕНИЛ генерал от кавалерии А.А. БРУСИЛОВ! В 1915-1916 гг. ЕЩЕ! Привет "булкохрустам"! Они про это ох как не любят вспоминать! Этож только "Красные" мясорубку своим устраивали...
                  А в 1941 "заградотряды" сначала ПОЯВИЛИСЬ В ВЕРМАХТЕ! И это ФАКТ! И только потом - в Красной Армии.
      2. sniperino
        sniperino 16 May 2020 07: 22 New
        0
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Хаха, это такая "категория врагов народа" что ли - оратор
        С конца 19 в. в науке наблюдается всплеск интереса к теме "масса и вождь". Хороший лектор вождём не станет, ибо он пользуется логикой, обращаясь к разуму аудитории. Оратор же с помощью риторики ломает логику, умело играет эмоциями аудитории и подвигает толпу на импульсивные действия; из них то и выходят вожди масс. А потенциальные вожди - всегда под прицелом.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 May 2020 09: 45 New
    -8
    Quote: Plantagenet
    o eloquence we had, but what a thing, but we etched him


    very eloquent and bright the best propaganda film +1936 year "Цирк":
    My country is widespread,
    There are many forests, fields and rivers in it!
    I do not know another such country,
    Where man breathes so freely.

    Spring wind blows over the country
    Every day is happier to live,
    And no one in the world can
    It’s better to laugh and love us.

    much more convincing for the masses!

    but it’s not for the masses (they didn’t have the right to know, didn’t deserve it, didn’t come out with mugs, apparently) from only one NKVD message for the same 1937 g- КАК "дышал и "смеялся" человек" :
    In the Kamensky district, in recent days, 2 deaths from starvation were again noted, in the Chembarsky district - 2 cases, in the Svishchevsky, Issinsky, Kuznetsk, Kochkurovsky and Tengushevsky districts - one case each. Altogether during the winter in 14 districts there were 62 starvation deaths. In a number of collective farms of Teleginsky, Staro-Shaigovsky, Bezenchuksky, Klyavlinsky, Tagaysky, Penza and other districts (total 52 districts) swelling collective farmers from malnutrition. There were also cases of swelling from hunger in the families of the Red Army. Eating various surrogates is observed in the vast majority of collective farms of districts, . In the Red Sloboda, Kamensky and other areas noted eating fell.

    In the Staro-Kulatkinsky district, there was an attack of a crowd of more than 200 people at a bakery. The crowd broke the doors to boutiquesn and began to grab a loaf of bread, which was no more than 150 kg. At the same time, a pregnant woman was hushed up, who immediately had premature birth.

    Due to food difficulties in the area homelessness and poverty are growing. In the city of Kuznetsk at the railway station in recent days 20 homeless children left by collective farmers of the Neverkinsky district when leaving for work were selected. In sec. Isaevka of the Chembarsky district do not attend school, and up to 40% of schoolchildren are impoverished. . On the collective farms of the Petrovsky district, 16 families of collective farmers engaged in poverty have been established.

    collective farmer farm them. Blucher of the Svishchevsky district Botov had seven children, in December 1936 he had two children who, being weakened by malnutrition died. . In order to buy bread Botov podal your home.
    etc. etc.


    and it’s a pity they didn’t know ...
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 10: 57 New
      -3
      Where is it about MILLIONS of starvation deaths?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 May 2020 11: 52 New
        -2
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Where is it about MILLIONS of starvation deaths?

        where are you looking? belay

        it 1937 year, not 1933.

        this (1937) year is already built socialism and the year when:
        "сельское хозяйство flourishing".
        Stalin


        and for whom kept the people. stating this to him though. what in
        14 districts took place 62 starvation deaths. swelling and eating
        ?
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 27 New
          -1
          What, again quotes cuts Olga?
          The audit found that acute food difficulties are a consequence not so much of the shortage of 1936 as criminal inactivity and slowness of rural and district organizations ... For example, in 5 Litvinovsky District collective farms, where acute food difficulties are felt, 40 centners of food were spent on livestock fodder loans ... Due to the extremely soulless and criminal attitude of the chairman of the N.-Archinsky village council of the Telegin district of Kulikov, a member of the CPSU (B.), in early January of this year in the village Joy committed suicide collective farmer Zakharov ...
          For example, the collective farmer of the collective farm. Blucher Svishchevsky district Botov had seven children and had the right to receive multi-family allowance in the amount of 2 thousand rubles. However, the grant was delayed and in December 1936 two children fell ill with him, who, weakened by malnutrition, died. Therefore, the amount of the allowance was reduced by 1 thousand rubles. But behind these 1 thousand rubles. Botov went to the district center 12 times (distance 25 km). Botov repeatedly appealed for assistance to the chairman of the rick Golenbeev and yet he received only 300 rubles so far. In order to buy bread Botov sold his house

          In a number of places, the principle of free trade in bread is grossly violated. In the regional center of Kerensk, the district consumer union, installed by the head of the regional internal trade agency Feofanov, a member of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, instead of selling bread in stalls, organized buffets in each institution and sold bread according to lists. The sale of bread on the lists stopped. Material on Feofanova transferred to the district prosecutor.
          It seems that Feofanov with his acquaintances turned out to be innocently repressed.
          Large size in a number of areas, mainly the most affected by the shortage of 1936, took the dumping of livestock, which is individually used by collective farmers. Most cows are slaughtered for meat or sold and exchanged for bread
          Well, about comedies, during the Great Patriotic War they shot at least a film newsreel with comedy plots, but Olgych did not know about this, of course.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 08: 36 New
      +2
      According to Russian scientists, the demographic losses in 1932–33 due to a decrease in the birth rate, exacerbation of diseases associated with hunger, deportations, and repressions amounted to 3531 thousand people in Ukraine [36] [37], 1.3 million people in Kazakhstan, the Volga region - 0.4 million people, in the North Caucasus - 1 million people, in other regions - 1 million people [37]. At the same time, direct losses from hunger amounted (in the Volga region) to approximately three quarters, with the number of direct victims of hunger at 365 people and indirect losses due to a drop in the birth rate in the same region by 722 people [115].
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 09: 09 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        According to Russian scientists, demographic losses in 1932-33 due to a decrease in the birth rate
        What kind of scientists are there, where is the link? I just found this in VK.
        And this is not counting the fact that heaps of famine in the Volga 21-22 years and the famine of the beginning of the 30s dumped in a heap. Decent level, you will not say anything !.
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 10: 27 New
          +2
          The link is the simplest. Wikipedia And in it there are numbered links to the works of the respective authors. But you can see the data on the GARF archive website. There are copies of documents. There are a number of interesting dissertations on this subject and monographs. If you are interested, I can post data on them.
          Но самое главное, что Ольгович "не сбрехал". Тут Вы явно погорячились...
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 30 New
                0
                What is it? The numbers are one on one with yours, scientists only let us down.
            2. kalibr
              12 May 2020 12: 31 New
              +3
              1 The hungry years in the territory of the Russian Empire and the USSR
              2 Background
              2.1 Forced collectivization
              2.2 Bread
              2.3 Fight against theft
              2.4 Repression of the rural population
              2.5 Socialization of livestock
              3 Consequences of Famine
              4 The actions of the Soviet leadership in the fight against hunger in 1933
              5 Disaster Estimates
              5.1 In the territory of the Ukrainian SSR
              5.2 In the territory of the Kazakh Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic
              5.3 In the territory of the Belarusian SSR
              6 Memory of the victims
              7 See also
              8 notes
              9 Literature
              10 References
              Вот материалы Вики. То, о чем писали российские ученые находится в разделе "Оценки масштабов бедствия". Про украинских ученых дальше... Не надо передергивать, в эпоху Интернета это смотрится глупо.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 43 New
                -1
                Quote: kalibr
                No need to juggle, in the era of the Internet it looks stupid.

                Вот именно, только статей в Вики больше чем одна, и абстрактные "российские" учёные обернулись украинскими.
                1. kalibr
                  12 May 2020 13: 27 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  "российские" учёные обернулись украинскими.

                  У Вас "да", у меня нет. См. разделы статьи в Википедии... Специально для Вас в списке разделов нужное highlighted. This is where the data on our historians. Ours. On Ukrainian further. But if you want to be confused ... with a finger, then please.
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 14: 13 New
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Especially for you in the list of sections the necessary is highlighted. This is where the data on our historians. Our

                    And I was not too lazy, I downloaded the text from the link.
                    According to Russian scientists, demographic losses in 1932–33 due to a decrease in the birth rate, exacerbation of diseases associated with hunger, deportations, and repressions amounted to 3531 thousand people in Ukraine [36] [37]

                    https://vk.com/doc-23433303_437517347?hash=3a155236103d97dad0&dl=b5566b625df003ef97
                    И вот по этой ссылке, стр 272 всплывает настолько "российский" учёный Станисла́в Владисла́вович Кульчи́цкий, что "двуглавый российский орёл курит от зависти":
                    Head of the working group of historians under the Government Commission for the Study of the OUN-UPA. The contemporary works of S. V. Kulchitsky are mainly devoted to attempts to justify the heroization and rehabilitation of the OUN-UPA and the theory of the “famine-genocide of the Ukrainian people”

                    So you, Vyacheslav, before getting clever and writing anything:
                    Quote: kalibr
                    But if you want to be confused ... with a finger, then please.

                    сперва сами по ссылочке пройдите, а то слова о Радзинском - "халтурщик, конъюнктурщик и верхогляд" скорее о Вас будут.
                    1. sniperino
                      sniperino 16 May 2020 08: 31 New
                      0
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      И вот по этой ссылке, стр 272 всплывает настолько "российский" учёный Станисла́в Владисла́вович Кульчи́цкий
                      Россия - это многонациональное государство, в котором даже голимый эфиоп может стать "нашим всем". Поэтому и нацисты тут не прижились (имеется ввиду в России, а не на ВО): шкерятся под плинтусом, а не с факелами ходят.
        2. kalibr
          12 May 2020 11: 13 New
          +4
          I don’t know where you look ... And where everything is piled up. You were given figures for demographic losses in 1932-33.
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 12 May 2020 21: 12 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        According to Russian scientists, demographic losses in 1932-33 due to a decrease in the birth rate, exacerbation of diseases associated with hunger, deportations, and repressions amounted to

        Вячеслав Олегович, "demographic losses в 1932-33 годы за счёт уменьшения рождаемости, обострения болезней связанных с голодом, депортаций, репрессий составили" не совсем равны количеству смертей от голода. В количество смертей от голода входят лишь люди, умершие непосредственно от голода + люди умершие от "обострения болезней связанных с голодом". И всё! "Прикручивание" к этому остальных категорий - верх цинизма и/или iдиотии.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        About Olga Olhych squeaked, however, as usual.

        ALL MORTALITY !!! The USSR for 1932-33, calculated on the basis of the data of the registry office and TsUNHU, is 3,2 - 3,4 million .. So, yes, millions. This time, Olgovich didn’t.
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 22: 15 New
          +3
          Quote: HanTengri
          amounts to 3,2 - 3,4 million .. So, yes, millions.

          So am I about the same ...
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 12 May 2020 22: 28 New
            +3
            Quote: kalibr
            So am I about the same ...

            I, in principle, about the correctness of some of the studies referenced by Aunt Vika. There is no need to twist the numbers artificially. There is enough without it ...
            And the fact that some local plasma Marxists do not know this ... So ask them what the proletariat is, according to Marx, and see what they say! lol
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 10: 23 New
        +1
        If everything I have described deserves the attention of the Central Committee, send to the Veshensky district authentic communists who would have the courage, regardless of their faces, to expose everyone whose fault the region's collective farm was mortally undermined, who would really investigate and discover not only all those who applied the disgusting “methods” of torture, beatings and abuse to collective farmers, but also those who inspired this.
        It is impossible to ignore what has been going on in the Veshensky and Verkhne-Don regions for three months. Only you hope.
        And as the lies about millions starved to death?
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 11: 11 New
          +2
          You have already been answered this question. Add all the numbers and you will have a total of millions. You can go to the GARF website, there is a whole selection of documents about hunger in the USSR. Everything is...
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 09 New
            -1
            As you can see, if we subtract from the mortality rate for 1932 the average mortality rate for 1929-1931, it turns out that in addition 138 thousand people died that year. Further. If we summarize the number of deaths for 1933-1936 (3036,9 thousand people) and subtract from this amount the number of deaths for 1928-1931 (2086 thousand people), we get 950 thousand people, which together with additionally died in 1932 will amount to 1088 thousand people. If we add about 300 thousand people who died in other zones of hunger, then we get about 1,5 million people. Interestingly, in table 1 on the same Wikipedia (2), the total mortality rate in 1933 was only 1552,2 thousand people. And if so, then the number of victims can be reduced by another 300 thousand people.
            https://narodna.pravda.com.ua/rus/history/46713afe4b9e8/
            There are such studies. Wiki edit, just remind.
            1. kalibr
              12 May 2020 12: 34 New
              +3
              Now refer to the GARF materials ... They are not correct!
          2. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 12: 48 New
            -1
            Quote: kalibr
            You can go to the GARF website, there is a whole selection of documents about hunger in the USSR
            Ткните меня носом в эту "подборку", нет там ничего.
            http://statearchive.ru/funds.html
            1. kalibr
              12 May 2020 12: 54 New
              +3
              Report of the inspector of the Pokrovsky district health department in the RK VKP (b) on the examination of the starving families of the district
              26 March 1932 city
              On behalf of the RK VKP (b), on March 24, 1932, I, Kisilev, examined several families of the Karpovsky village council to identify diseases due to hunger, and the following turned out to be.
              According to the statement of the chairman of the village council, Comrade Sukhanov, and the secretary of the cell, Comrade Medvedev, the village council received a number of written and oral statements from the collective farmers of this village that they and their families were sick from hunger. The following persons declared: Gorokhova Maria, Pautova Malanya, Rogozina Irina, Logacheva Ustinya, etc.
              The facts that the collective farmers eat dead animals, the chairman of the village council, cell secretary and other communists confirm. Personally, together with the chairman and other citizens, I went around the apartments of the aforementioned collective farmers, and also, as I personally wished, examined a number of houses, besides those listed, to make sure that they would not choose the worst families for me to demonstrate.
              Of the 20 houses I examined in the First and Second Karpovs, I met only in the Red Army’s house in a relative state of nutrition: a little flour and bread, and the rest eat surrogates. In almost every house there are patients: either children or mothers, undoubtedly because of hunger, since they have swelling of the face and whole body.
              A particularly creepy picture of the following families: the family of Konstantin Sidelnikov, who left to get bread for the last shirts, skirts, scarves of his wife, and his wife lies sick, giving birth to a child 5 days ago, and 4 young children, pale as wax, with swollen eyelids, like marmots sitting at the table and eat hot water from a common cup, into which a white liquid of dubious taste and sour smell is poured from the bottle, as it later turned out to be the reverse (a departure from milk transfer through a separator). Sidelnikov Konstantin and his wife are the best drummers-collective farmers, the old collective farmers.

              Sidelnikov Yakov has 2 children and old parents, who are 70 years old, living in the same room, but eat separately, since the old people get surrogates for their belongings, the son of Sidelnikov Jacob for their own. Food substitutes hide their exhibits from each other on the street (the exhibits of which are attached herewith). Old people with tears ask the doctor: "Give death."
              Borodin Philip earned 650 workdays, has a wife and 5 children, from one and a half to 9 years, his wife is lying on the stove is sick, two children are sitting on the stove, like pale wax with swollen faces. A one and a half year old child sits on the window, a pale, swollen, 9-year-old boy lies sick on the earthen floor, covered with tatters, while Philip Borodin himself sits on the bench and continuously smokes craps of a disgusting surrogate, cries like a child, asks for death for children. With tears, he asks Comrade Sukhanov: “Give me at least 1 kg of potato, give me at least 1 liter of milk, because I worked all summer and now work tirelessly” (now he cares for the bulls, and in the summer shepherded cows). According to Sukhanov, the foreman of the collective farm "Red Partisan" Borodin was an unrequited worker. This Borodin does not even have food substitutes. Two days ago, he ate two dead piglets thrown out of the common yard. In Borodin’s house, impossible dirt and stench mixed with tobacco smoke. Borodin scolds the children: "Damn it, you’re not dying, at least not looking at you."
              Objectively examining the state of Borodin himself, I ascertain that he (Borodin) begins to fall into a psychosis due to hunger, which could lead to the fact that he will eat his own children.

              I examined a number of families during lunch, where they consumed the same food surrogates that they eat with hot water, and in some houses (two) there were gnawed bones of a dead horse. According to the explanation of the collective farmers, the surrogates attached to you are prepared in the following order: push the stalks of sunflower, push the flax in the mortars - seeds, ovoste, ponds, colza, quinoa, dried potato husk, hemp seed and bake cakes. Of the above-mentioned surrogates, oilseeds are nutritious, which are useful for mixed foods containing vitamins, vegetable fats themselves, oil of vitamins do not contain and without impurities other foods that are more equivalent in nutrition and calorie content, and at the same time, when consumed without impurities, these oils are poisonous and only harm the body. Ground of decision: general hygiene course prof. G.V. Khlotsina, pp. 60−431.
              Dirty houses, around houses polluted by human feces, due to diarrhea from these surrogates. People walk like shadows, speechless, dull, houses empty with clogged windows (about 500 homeowners left somewhere unknown from Karpovo village, abandoning their homes), you rarely see animals on the streets (obviously, the last ones were eaten).
              In the whole village (1 thousand yards) I met only two hens and a rooster, and occasionally a skinny dog ​​will be met.
              The impression that the Karpovskoye village is as if suspended (in hibernation, smeared, filled up). The thatched roofs of houses and sheds are uncovered.
              Reporting on the foregoing to the Pokrovsky RK VKP (b), as a district health inspector and a doctor, I ask you to take urgent measures to provide assistance to the starving and on practical measures to inform me.
              District health inspector doctor Kiselev.
              TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 2. On. 10. D. 513. L. 256−251.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 13: 08 New
                -1
                What, what is it? Is this a link to the GARF? No. What is it for? Does anyone deny hunger in those years, or many hundreds of thousands of deaths? Personally, I do not. But why lie about millions?
                1. kalibr
                  12 May 2020 15: 26 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  many hundreds of thousands of deaths? Personally, I do not. But why lie about millions?

                  Add up hundreds of thousands to make millions.
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 15: 31 New
                    -2
                    Hundreds of thousands are made up of hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands, but millions are already obtained from manipulating numbers.
                    1. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 12 May 2020 21: 46 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Hundreds of thousands are made up of hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands, but millions are already obtained from manipulating numbers.


                      Count the supermortality for 1932-33. And check for yourself - millions or not. (data given in thousand people)
                    2. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 03: 11 New
                      0
                      This tablet is muddy, give a reference to the source.
                    3. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 13 May 2020 12: 28 New
                      +2
                      I collected this tablet last year when I tried to prove to Olgovich that not 1932 or 33 million, but much less, died from the famine of 15-7.
                      go to Istmat. All these figures are there, in the statistical documents of the corresponding years.
                    4. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 15: 59 New
                      0
                      Thank you, but I would like a direct link, a lot of time is left to shovel in context, and even more so in the picture.
                    5. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 13 May 2020 19: 38 New
                      +1
                      http://istmat.info/files/uploads/44830/rgae_4372.92.161_l.1-34.pdf
                      Table No. 3.
                      Barely found, damn it. I forgot the name of the document. (Information on the population of the USSR according to the registry office, on the estimates of TsUNHU and a comparison of the results of the census of 1926, 1937 and preliminary data of the census of 1939. February 20, 1939 (So, there you go! laughing )) And without this, you can search until the second coming.
                    6. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 04: 07 New
                      +1
                      Thanks, downloaded, browsing. And it seems I’m forced to agree with the figure of supermortality that you quoted about 2,5 million in two years, if the document is genuine of course.
                      However, there are quite plausible explanations for this in addition to hunger.
                      https://lenta.ru/articles/2015/11/28/golodomor
                      Moreover, in the summer of 1932 more people died than in the hungry winter of 1932-1933.
                      A simple calculation shows that this “abnormal”, abnormal mortality in 1933 accounts for about 75 thousand people in cities and 800 thousand in villages, that is, more than half of those who died in that fateful year in Ukraine, by definition, could not die of hunger. What's the matter? ..... The evidence was surprisingly easy. The Dnipropetrovsk regional department of the GPU in a memorandum dated March 5, 1933 reports: “In the Novovasilievsky district, high mortality refers to mass diseases of tropical malaria, which has become a mass epidemic with a large number of deaths.”
                      Спорно? Возможно, но уж точно о "голодоморе" только ольгычеподобные "русофилы" могут вещать.
                      U.I. Mukhin also has debriefings, but he is a comrade too original, although in Katyn it’s just a hammer.
      2. kalibr
        12 May 2020 15: 30 New
        +4
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        What, what is it? Is this a link to the GARF?

        This is another archive. But who cares? You won’t get into any of them anyway, so wait until I contact them, get information and write a few more articles on this topic. Do not hurry...
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 15: 32 New
          -1
          Quote: kalibr
          This is another archive. But what difference does it make to you

          This is nice, they were broadcasting about GARF, but here is such an affront.
          1. kalibr
            12 May 2020 16: 07 New
            +2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            This is nice, they were broadcasting about GARF, but here is such an affront.

            It will be about the GARF. It’s just that the FSB turned up first in hand (they just now opened up a lot of documents on repressed people!) And RGASPI. Not all at once, haste - he wrote, good at catching fleas.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 May 2020 20: 07 New
            -2
            Quote: kalibr
            It will be about the GARF.


            .. Collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934 years. "


            Organizers and participants:

            Federal Archival Agency
            State Archive of the Russian Federation
            RGAE
            RGASPI
            Federal Archival Agency

            State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF)

            Russian State Archive of Economics (RGAE)

            Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI)

            Central Archive of the Federal Security Service (CA FSB of Russia)
          3. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 05: 27 New
            -1
            As usual, look for it as you want. Well, I found
            http://www.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/1933.shtml
            The heaviest unit the document reports no more than
            According to additional (far from complete) data, during the past months of 1932, 14549 people died on the basis of industrial difficulties, of which 2500 died in September and October.
            And that’s all, the rest is about hundreds of deaths, dozens and isolated cases of starvation deaths! Hard reading, but you won’t be able to count millions! And at the same time no less than documents on food assistance, food loans and other things. And there is direct sabotage or squandering and theft.
          4. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 May 2020 11: 20 New
            -3
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            As usual, look for it as you want. Well, I found
            http://www.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/1933.shtml
            The heaviest single document reports no more than
            According to additional (far from complete) data, during the past months of 1932, 14549 people died on the basis of industrial difficulties, of which 2500 died in September and October.
            And that’s all, the rest is about hundreds of deaths, dozens and isolated cases of starvation deaths! Hard reading, but you won’t be able to count millions!


            for half an hour, dispelled the malicious slander against the fuzzies? lol

            By the way, what did they themselves NOT say ANYWHERE ANYWHERE and themselves did not count and did not publish the number of victims of the worst in the history of famine?

            Вы бы сейчас прямо писали : " Согласно подсчетам ЦСУ СССР. заявленным на 17 съезде вкпбе и опубликованным в статсборнике и газете "правда" количество жкртв голода-ннн человек.

            And today they make you climb into the jungle, count, strain. lol

            Here’s another half an hour reading documents about several million victims,
            The tragedy of the Soviet village. Collectivization and dispossession. 1927 - 1939 Doc and mat. T. 3. The end of 1930 - 1933. M. 2001;
            Danilov V.P., Zelenin I.E. Organized hunger. To the 70th anniversary of the peasant tragedy // Patriotic History. 2004. No. 5.

            [THE SOVIET VILLAGE WITH THE EYES OF THE OGPU - NKVD Volume 3. 1930 - 1934 Book 2.1932 - 1934]

            "Население Советского Союза. 1922-1991"
            [EAT. Andreev, L.E. Darsky, T.L. Kharkov. Demographic History of Russia: 1927-1957]

            Lorimer F. The population of Soviet Union:
            History and Prospects. Geneva, League of Nations, 1946; Urlanis
            B.Ts. Problems of the dynamics of the population of the USSR. M., 1974, p. 310; Wheatcroft
            SC Famine and Factors Affecting Mortality in the USSR: The Demographic
            Crises of 1914-1922 and 1930-1933 // Reported in Vevey Switzerland.
            July 1981. Symposium The Famine History. Birmingham University;
            Anderson BA and Silver BD Demographic Analysis and Population
            Catastrophes in the USSR. // Slavic Review. 1985, 44, No. 3, p. 517-536;
            Conquest R. Harvest of sorrow // New World, 1989, No. 10, p. 179-200;
            Maksudov S. Losses of the population of the USSR. Benson / Vermont: Chalidze Publications,
            1989; Tsaplin V.V. Statistics of the victims of Stalinism in the 30s // Questions
            истории, 1989, № 4, с. 178; "Советская культура" от
            March 31, 1990; Andreev E.M., Darsky L.E., Kharkov T.L. Population
            Soviet Union. 1922-1991. M., 1993; Ivnitsky N.A. Famine 1932-1933
            years. M., 1995.

            Read, add and ... refute their numbers lol
          5. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 11: 47 New
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            for half an hour, dispelled vicious slander against the white fuzzies
            There are documents that Olgych cited, which in no way allow millions to be counted.
            Quote: Olgovich
            And they make you climb into the jungle today, count, strain

            Well, it’s clear to Olgych that it’s enough to throw Russophobic agitation, why should he strain, his Russophobe brothers have already strained.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Anderson BA and Silver BD. Conquest
            How many Conquest counted there? 8 million? And what is so little, hohlohistoriki caught up to 10, whom to believe then?
          6. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 May 2020 13: 58 New
            -3
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            There are documents that Olgych cited, which in no way allow millions to be counted.

            Oh, you are even more cool: thousands pages of documents and analysts mastered and even ... rejected in just 20 minutes! belay lol good
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            it is clear to Olga that enough Russophobian agitation is thrown over, why should he strain, his Russophobe brothers have already strained.

            so imagine Bolshevik reports the communists 30 years (40,50,60,70,80гг,) ИХ анализы катастрофы, гневные статьи в "правде" . известиях" и пр, гневные речи на съездах, на радио, выводы с indicating the correct numbers of victims famine in the country. arranged by them. WHO is in the way?

            and provide their explanations. . why they didn’t shoot themselves. when they realized what they had done. And they lived for themselves. happily ever after. like nothing happened.

            Shaw, dumb? Nothing?

            They had no time to bother with such trifles as the martyrdom of millions?

            and are these people?

            or else look? seek, seek and present to all!

            but they talked about exactly that — on the terrible day of the terrible February of 33, when more than 10 peasants died of hunger. (as in other days of autumn, winter and spring)
            moreover, they said it in person to THE MOST PEASANTS::
            " Мы добились того, что миллионные массы бедняков стали wealthy people.

            rescued from poverty and ruin, turned thanks to collective farms in wealthy people.


            This is a great achievement, comrades. That is an achievement that the world did not know yet and which no state in the world has yet achieved.

            Here are the practical ones, the tangible results of collective farm construction, the results of the fact that the peasantry took the path of collective farms.

            Да ТАКИХ "достижений" мир еще в своей истории не знал, а результат -вообще потрясает воображение!

            I have never met more cynicism ...
          7. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 17: 52 New
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            There are documents that Olgych cited, which in no way allow millions to be counted.

            Oh, you’re even more cool: thousands of pages of documents and analysts have mastered and even ... rejected in just 20 minutes!
            Umishko let Olgych turn on
            Olgovich (Andrey) Yesterday, 20:07
            Vladimir_2U (Vladimir) 5 Today, 05:27
            20 minutes, yeah. And this miracle (Olgych) something about the calculations bleats.
            And this is not counting the fact that
            Collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934 years. "
            Project URL: http://portal.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/index.shtml

            there are no thousands of pages on this link, plus the name of each document posted, but Olgych is not a reader, he is a thrower of links, and he prepares them filthy, intentionally by itself.
            Ну а если Ольгыч считает аналитикой брехню откровенных русофобов типа Конквиста и прочих идейных братьев собственно Ольгыча, то да, достаточно их фамилий что бы не нырять больше в их измышления. (которые к тому же и перечитаны давно). В общем давно понятно, что для Ольгыча "подсчёты" русофобов как англосаксонского так и хохлобандеровского разлива непреложная истина, вот такой вот Ольгыч "русофил".
            The founding father of the figure of 7 million victims of famine in 1932-33. is Robert Conquest with his book Harvest of Sorrow. For this book in 1994, he received the Taras Shevchenko National Prize of Ukraine, and in June 2006 he was awarded the Order of Prince Yaroslav the Wise
            .
            https://alexandr-palkin.livejournal.com/3167915.html
            Quote: Olgovich
            submit Bolshevik reports of the communists of the 30s
            Wow! Why would Olga demand from me? Let him lead, trample on them. Something did not hesitate to bring documents,
            Collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934 years. " it’s true that he could not read, much less comprehend them. Although there are sane assessments, not Hohlobander’s
            For example, by February 1922, the number of hungry people in Chuvashia amounted to about 595 thousand people. out of 850 thousand of the population of autonomy, and more than 12 thousand people who died of hunger. [85]. In other words, the number of deaths from starvation was 2% of the number of starving people. I talked a lot with my mother, she lived in Novocherkassk and with my wife - her relatives lived in Yeysk. As such, the hunger there was very moderate. They ate quinoa, grass, weakened died, but not all. A comparison of these testimonies with the stories of survivors of the siege of Leningrad suggests that this hunger was much easier to tolerate than the famine during the siege of Leningrad. But even, based on the ratio of the number of deaths to the number of starving people equal to 10%, the number of victims of hunger in Ukraine will be less than 500 thousand people. So, the number of victims of famine in Ukraine is in the range of 0,5-0,94 million people.

            https://stalinism.ru/kollektivizatsiya/taynyi-goloda-30-h.html

            Quote: Olgovich
            on the terrible day of February 33, when more than 10 peasants died of hunger. (as in other days of autumn, winter and spring)
            moreover, they said it in the face of THE MOST PEASANTS
            What expression, a powerful gurgle, but where does the figure come from, will Olgych lead a link? And does Olga understand the stupidity of his own statement about hunger in the village in the fall?

            Quote: Olgovich
            I have never met more cynicism ...
            Here's how Russophile can with such aplomb support the fabrications of frank Russophobes? That's where true cynicism, or schizophrenia.
          8. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 May 2020 08: 33 New
            -3
            [quote = Vladimir_2U] [quote = Olgovich] There are documents that Olgych cited, which in no way allow millions to be counted.

            Oh, you’re even cooler: thousands of pages of documents and analysts mastered and even ... rejected in just 20 minutes! [/ Quote] Umishko, let Olgych turn it on
            [quote] Olgovich (Andrey) Yesterday, 20:07
            Vladimir_2U (Vladimir) 5 Today, 05:27 [/ quote] 20 minutes, yeah. And this miracle (Olgych) something about the calculations bleats.
            And this is not counting the fact that
            Collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934 years. "
            Project URL: http://portal.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/index.shtml

            there are no thousands of pages on this link, plus the name of each document posted, but Olgych is not a reader, he is a thrower of links, and he prepares them filthy, intentionally by itself.
            Ну а если Ольгыч считает аналитикой брехню откровенных русофобов типа Конквиста и прочих идейных братьев собственно Ольгыча, то да, достаточно их фамилий что бы не нырять больше в их измышления. (которые к тому же и перечитаны давно). В общем давно понятно, что для Ольгыча "подсчёты" русофобов как англосаксонского так и хохлобандеровского разлива непреложная истина, вот такой вот Ольгыч "русофил".
            [quote] The founding father of the figure of 7 million victims of famine in 1932-33. is Robert Conquest with his book Harvest of Sorrow. For this book, in 1994 he received the Taras Shevchenko National Prize of Ukraine, and in June 2006 he was awarded the Order of Prince Yaroslav the Wise [/ quote].
            https://alexandr-palkin.livejournal.com/3167915.html
            [quote = Olgovich] submit Bolshevik reports of the communists of the 30s [/ quote] Wow! Why would Olgych demand from me? Let him lead, trample on them. Something did not hesitate to bring documents,
            Collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934 years. " it’s true that he could not read, much less comprehend them. Although there are sane assessments, not Hohlobander’s
            [quote] For example, by February 1922, the number of hungry people in Chuvashia was about 595 thousand people. out of 850 thousand of the population of autonomy, and more than 12 thousand people who died of hunger. [85]. In other words, the number of deaths from starvation was 2% of the number of starving people. I talked a lot with my mother, she lived in Novocherkassk and with my wife - her relatives lived in Yeysk. As such, the hunger there was very moderate. They ate quinoa, grass, weakened died, but not all. A comparison of these testimonies with the stories of survivors of the siege of Leningrad suggests that this hunger was much easier to tolerate than the famine during the siege of Leningrad. But even, based on the ratio of the number of deaths to the number of starving people equal to 10%, the number of victims of hunger in Ukraine will be less than 500 thousand people. So, the number of victims of famine in Ukraine is in the range of 0,5-0,94 million people. [/ Quote]
            https://stalinism.ru/kollektivizatsiya/taynyi-goloda-30-h.html

            [quote = Olgovich] on the terrible day of the terrible February of 33, when more than 10 peasants died of hunger. (as in other days of autumn, winter and spring)
            moreover, they said it in person to THE MOST PEASANTS [/ quote] What expression, powerful gurgle, but where does the figure come from, will Olgych give a link? And does Olga understand the stupidity of his own statement about hunger in the village in the fall?

            [quote = Olgovich] did not meet more cynicism ... [/ quote] Here's how a Russophile can with such a rd
            You are given a dozen works that you have mastered in ... 20 min

            Shame ....

            Today there is only one OFFICIAL document of the state on the number of victims: the State Duma’s declaration of SEVEN million victims.

            Your Russophobian party did not bother to WISE a word either about hunger or about victims: it was much more interested in the case of SCOTT than people: they traced and wrote about cattle, not about people.

            Russophobic power because MILLIONS of Russian people died of HUNGER during it, and the Russian people, in just 70 years, from the fastest growing, full of strength and energy, turned into an endangered, weak aging. Russia itself CUTTED by FIVE Million km2.

            These are just facts.
          9. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 08: 54 New
            -1
            Quote: Olgovich
            on the terrible day of February 33, when more than 10 peasants died of hunger. (as in other days of autumn, winter and spring)
            moreover, they said it in the face of THE MOST PEASANTS
            Where is the source of gurgling, Olgych?
            Quote: Olgovich
            You are given a dozen works that you have mastered in ... 20 min
            Вот умора! Типа Ольгыч сам всё это прочитал. Ну и умишко Ольгыча не в состоянии освоить тот факт что многое было прочитано до Ольгычевских "исследований и разоблачений".
            Quote: Olgovich
            Today there is only one OFFICIAL document of the state on the number of victims: the State Duma’s declaration of SEVEN million victims.
            There is also an official recognition of the president and the Duma about the fault of the USSR in the Katyn execution. Very, very patriotic recognition of the deceitful Polish and Goebbels version. As false as the figure of 7 million starvation.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Your Russophobian party did not bother to WISE a word about either hunger or victims: it was much more interested in the case of SCOTT than people: it was they who traced and wrote about cattle, not about people

            Может Ольгыч приведёт "исследования" о падеже скота в 32-33 годах, только не в дегенеративной манере драных цитат без ссылки, конечно.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Russian people, in just 70 years, from the fastest growing, full of strength and energy, turned into an endangered, weak aging
            Well, these degenerative pro-Western howls are not new.
          10. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 May 2020 10: 19 New
            -3
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Where is the source of gurgling, Olgych?

            Stalin's speech to the peasants, in the face, about their prosperity in the terrible cannibal February-gurgle? fool
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            As false as the figure of 7 million starvation.

            This is an OFFICIAL STATE assessment. Research based

            your authority is officially Shamefully and cowardly kept silent- about the results of its activities, which led to millions of victims, for I was afraid until the PIG squeal, that they will be ASKED and destroyed.

            о cattle your Central Committee wrote in '33, and about people - neither
            the words!
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Well, these degenerative pro-Western howls are not new.

            These are FACTS, ignoramus.
            Russian Cross and the borders of the 17th century -it is exclusively the work of YOUR Russophobian government.
            CENTURIES of the titanic work of the people are DESTROYED by it.

            first places in the WORLD on alcoholism, abortion, tobacco smoking, homicide, suicide, divorce, rape, also Her work.

            These are just FACTS. Murderous for you.
          11. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 11: 07 New
            -1
            Quote: Olgovich
            Stalin's speech to the peasants, in person, about their prosperity in the terrible cannibal February-gurgle?
            Pretending to be an idiot, huh, Olgych?
            Quote: Olgovich
            on the terrible day of February 33, when more than 10 peasants died of hunger. (as in other days of autumn, winter and spring)
            Where does the source of THIS gurgle come from?
            And Stalin’s speech, from where it is shameless, however, as usual for Olgych and his ilk, quotes are torn out, here
            SPEECH I.V. Stalin at the First All-Union Congress of Collective Farmers
            http://grachev62.narod.ru/stalin/t13/t13_39.htm
            We have ensured that the millions of poor people who used to live hungry now are now on collective farms middle peasants, have become wealthy people. We have succeeded in undermining the stratification of the peasants into the poor and kulaks, smashing the kulaks and helping the poor to become masters of their labor on collective farms, to become middle peasants.
            By expanding the collective farm construction, we succeeded in destroying this mess and injustice, breaking the kulak bondage, drawing the whole mass of poor people into collective farms, giving them a secure existence there and raising them to the level of middle peasants who could use collective farm land, benefits for collective farms, and tractors agricultural machinery.
            What does it mean? This means that at least 20 million peasants, at least 20 million poor people were saved from poverty and ruin, saved from kulak bondage and turned into wealthy people thanks to collective farms

            We have achieved what we have raised thanks to collective farms the poor to the level of the middle peasants. It is very good. But this is not enough. We must now achieve one more step forward and help all collective farmers — both the former poor and the middle peasants — to rise to the level of the prosperous. This can be achieved and this we must achieve at all costs
            For a particularly "gifted" Olgych, in the years of famine, long before the Revolution, and the kulaks were starving, not to mention the middle peasants
            Quote: Olgovich
            As false as the figure of 7 million starvation.

            This is an OFFICIAL STATE assessment. Research based
            Well, as usual, the deceased Olgych is a master at tearing quotes, you can check them right there, is it really not clear?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            There is also an official recognition of the president and the Duma about the fault of the USSR in the Katyn execution. Very, very patriotic recognition of the deceitful Polish and Goebbels version. As false as the figure of 7 million starvation.
            Что, подзабыл резко Ольгыч о Катынской лжи и её признании Думой и Президентом? Или Ольгыч также признаёт польскую и геббельсовскую версию? То что "русофил" Ольгыч признаёт насквозь русофобские английские и укробандеровские цифры голода понятно, но что и с Катынью так же? Ответ то где?
            Quote: Olgovich
            your Central Committee wrote about the case of SCOTT in 33
            Links where, Brehunishko?
            Quote: Olgovich
            These are FACTS, ignoramus.
            The Russian Cross and the borders of the 17th century is exclusively the work of YOUR government.
            CENTURIES of the titanic work of the people are DESTROYED by it.
            the first places in the WORLD in alcoholism, abortion, smoking, homicide, suicide, divorce, rape are also Her work.
            Тыкать носом Ольгыча в его идиотские обвинения Советской власти бесполезно. Но всё равно поинтересуюсь, неужели Ольгович настолько туп и не понимает. что проверить эти "данные" легко? И что при Советской власти бухали заметно меньше чем при царебатюшке, и что криминальные аборты намного опаснее легальных для женщин, и что по табаку цифры среднемировые, ну а уж по убийствам самоубийствам просто слов нет, кроме вопроса, не идиотише ли Ольгыч?
          12. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 May 2020 11: 37 New
            -3
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Pretending to be an idiot, huh, Olgych?

            think you got infected from you?
            Nope!
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Where does the source of THIS gurgle come from?

            Divide the number of victims by the number of days. And it can’t? belay
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And Stalin’s speech, from where it is shameless, however, as usual for Olgych and his ilk, quotes

            quotes are given expressing the MEANING of what has been said. Only the idiots cite the whole speech, the article. a book. This is stupid and nobody does it.

            And the meaning is simple-dying poor. in person, called wealthy people.
            do you agree. that wealthy people die of hunger?

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Что, подзабыл резко Ольгыч о Катынской лжи и её признании Думой и Президентом? Или Ольгыч также признаёт польскую и геббельсовскую версию? То что "русофил" Ольгыч признаёт насквозь русофобские английские и укробандеровские цифры голода понятно, но что и с Катынью так же? Ответ то где?

            belay fool
            1 where ... question? fool
            2. topic, what are we discussing?
            3. Tsffry-RUSSIAN official. . Give the Soviet official liar. And -NO such -your cowards were afraid.

            your unbelief is the least. What are you interested in
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Links where, Brehunishko?

            in e.

            Central Committee indicated, year too.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Тыкать носом Ольгыча в его идиотские обвинения Советской власти бесполезно. Но всё равно поинтересуюсь, неужели Ольгович настолько туп и не понимает. что проверить эти "данные" легко? И что при Советской власти бухали заметно меньше чем при царебатюшке, и что криминальные аборты намного опаснее легальных для женщин, и что по табаку цифры среднемировые, ну а уж по убийствам самоубийствам просто слов нет, кроме вопроса, не идиотише ли Ольгыч?

            Under the Emperor 0,2 l. With you18 liters / person.
            Growth in 90 times .
            Got it, no?

            and so on.
            Or what are you from Russian cross you made?

            it is built out of YOUR alcohol produced in the unthinkable state, tobacco, your abortion (200 million). your reasons. murders, etc.

            dawned not?
          13. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 11: 52 New
            -1
            Quote: Olgovich
            Pretending to be an idiot, huh, Olgych?
            think you got infected from you?
            Nope!
            Sami, all by yourself? This is clear.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Where does the source of THIS gurgle come from?
            Divide the number of victims by the number of days. And it can’t?
            Why would false numbers be used. I am not Olga.
            Quote: Olgovich
            quotes are given expressing the MEANING of what has been said. Only the idiots cite the whole speech, the article. a book. This is stupid and nobody does it.
            Quotes are cited and not torn out of context.
            Quote: Olgovich
            То что "русофил" Ольгыч признаёт насквозь русофобские английские и укробандеровские цифры голода понятно, но что и с Катынью так же? Ответ то где?
            1 where ... question? fool
            2. topic, what are we discussing?
            3. Tsffry-RUSSIAN official. . Give the Soviet official liar. And -NO such -your cowards were afraid.
            Exactly, pretending to be an idiot.
            Quote: Olgovich
            but what is the same with Katyn?
            It's not a question? If you recognized a knowingly false version with Katyn, then it means that you knowingly false figures about hunger. What, it is not clear, although this is Olgych.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Links where, Brehunishko?

            in e.
            Central Committee indicated, year too.
            What a wonderful link, this is extravaganza, extravaganza of ignorance and deceit.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Under the Emperor 0,2 l. With you, 18 liters / person.
            90 times growth.
            Got it, no?
            Hosspadi, Olgych really thinks that this completely idiotic figure cannot be verified? That’s who, after that, Olgych. Yes, and even check is optional
            Teetotalers demanded the closure of taverns, and sometimes it came down to the pogroms of drinking establishments. The Minister of Finance, who felt the loss in the treasury, by a special decree banned temperance gatherings [16] and “destroy existing sentences on abstinence from wine and continue to prevent them” [17].
            However, in May 1859, activists proceeded to the defeat of drinking establishments - these unrest swept 15 provinces of the Middle and Lower Volga region, the Urals and the Center of Russia [18] [19].
            The rebellion was pacified by troops who received orders to shoot the rebels. 11 thousand people were sent to prison and hard labor.
            The teetotalers were thrown into hard labor! Whether Olgych will catch the connection is doubtful.
            There are no communists such as Olgych in power and what do we see?
            According to a number of experts [21] [22], in Russia there is a very strong alcohol lobby, which blocks anti-alcohol laws. As a result of the fact that excise taxes were given to the regions, the local authorities merged with vodka producers
          14. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 May 2020 12: 08 New
            0
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Quotes are cited and not torn out of context.

            quotes and are given. context-appropriate.
            blind?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Exactly, pretending to be an idiot.

            the idiots don’t notice -The figures are RUSSIAN official. . Give the Soviet official liar. And -NO such -your cowards were afraid.
            you have nothing for your soul.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            What a wonderful link, this is extravaganza, extravaganza of ignorance and deceit.

            you can not, do not torture! yes
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Hosspadi, Olgych really thinks that this completely idiotic figure cannot be verified? That’s who, after that, Olgych. Yes, and even check is optional
            Teetotalers demanded the closure of taverns, and sometimes it came down to the pogroms of drinking establishments. The Minister of Finance, who felt the loss in the treasury, by a special decree banned temperance gatherings [16] and “destroy existing sentences on abstinence from wine and continue to prevent them” [17].
            However, in May 1859, activists proceeded to the defeat of drinking establishments - these unrest swept 15 provinces of the Middle and Lower Volga region, the Urals and the Center of Russia [18] [19].
            The rebellion was pacified by troops who received orders to shoot the rebels. 11 thousand people were sent to prison and hard labor

            so where data consumption,. chatterbox, in Russia and with you, eh?

            they are murderous for you bankrupt!

            the same for tobacco, abortion, etc.
          15. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 14: 10 New
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            Quotes are cited and not torn out of context.
            quotes and are given. context-appropriate.
            blind?
            Olga they tear out, brazenly and stupidly:
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Quote: Olgovich
            As false as the figure of 7 million starvation.

            This is an OFFICIAL STATE assessment. Research based
            Well, as usual, the deceased Olgych is a master at tearing quotes, you can check them right there, is it really not clear?
            The quote without Katyn was RIPPED out by a false Olga, an honorary citator of the Verkhovna Rada, but this is not accurate. Here is the full quote.

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            There is also an official recognition of the president and the Duma about the fault of the USSR in the Katyn execution. Very, very patriotic recognition of the deceitful Polish and Goebbels version. As false as the figure of 7 million starvation.
            So what about Katyn? What does Olgych dodge the answer? Either Olgych admits that the Duma adopted the false version of Katyn, and therefore could accept the false figures about the famine, or Olgych considers the Polish-Goebbels version of Katyn to be true!
            Ау, прямой вопрос, продублирую для умишка Ольгыча: Признаёт ли Ольгыч польскогеббельсовскую версию расстрела в Катыни истиной, как и Госдума? ДА или НЕТ? Прямая связь с "официально призаными" цифрами голода.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Give the Soviet official liar
            There is only a liar here, because there are no figures officially reported by the Soviet government of human losses from the famine of 1932-33. As there are no such figures about US casualties during the Great Depression. Who is Olgych to demand official figures from the Soviet government?
            That's right, NOBODY!
            But I do not mind giving statistics:
            http://istmat.info/files/uploads/44830/rgae_4372.92.161_l.1-34.pdf
            Will Olgych give such statistics in the USA over the years of the Depression? It’s unlikely because it is SECRET and still, unlike the Soviet. Personally, I believe that at least 5 million people died of starvation in the United States then.
            Quote: Olgovich
            so where are the consumption figures, .boltun, in Russia and with you, huh?

            Precisely, Olgych imagines that only he can use the Internet.
            According to statistics, the consumption of wine drinks per capita in 1890 was 2,46 liters, in 1910 - 4,7 liters, 1913 - just over 6 liters.
            Since 1914, an anti-alcohol company began in Russia, which allowed it to reduce the figures to a record level of 0,2 liters per year. The Soviet government in the first years of its reign also directed all its forces to maintaining a sober lifestyle among citizens. This policy bore fruit until the 60s of the last century. If in 1960 the level of alcohol consumption per person was 3,9 liters per year, then in 1970 - 6,7 liters, in the mid-80s - 11 liters, in 5 - 1994 liters, in 15 - 1995 liters in year.

            https://www.alcoclinic.ru/poleznaja-informacija/alkogolizm-v-rossii/
            Cook, in 1913 at 6 liters. was there another king? 18 liters in 1995 under the rule of Russophobes such as Olgych spilled onto Russia. This stupid bullshit is your Olgych, so brazenly and stupidly tear out the figure of 0,2 liters and stick it to 18 liters. in YELTSINSKY Russophobic Russia, under the guise of a country of Soviets, this is the deceit and insolence of the true Olga-Bandera.
            Quote: Olgovich
            the same for tobacco, abortion, etc.
            What is so, I suddenly forgot about the killings, and Olgych, full of memory, ayayay
            And again: a direct question, for Olgych: Does Olgych recognize the Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn as true, like the State Duma? Yes or no?
          16. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 May 2020 14: 46 New
            -2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Olga they tear out, brazenly and stupidly:

            are given for the ignorant.

            WHAT is out of context, liar?
            The poor have become prosperous people, And they have died in millions (at the same time) - did they get it?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            So what about Katyn? What does Olgych dodge the answer? Either Olgych admits that the Duma adopted the false version of Katyn, and therefore could accept the false figures about the famine, or Olgych considers the Polish-Goebbels version of Katyn to be true!
            Aw, a direct question, I’ll duplicate for umishka Olgych: Does Olgych recognize the Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn as true, like the State Duma? Yes or no? Direct link с "официально призаными" цифрами голода.

            not the slightest connection.

            In Katyn, I believe FACTS and DOCUMENTS: in Manchuria, the disappeared Poles were not found, nor were they found not a single letter of them home after May 1940, although before that they regularly wrote.

            where were they from 1940 to summer 1941?

            Goebbels didn’t get to the shooting pits under the Copper, by the way.

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            https://www.alcoclinic.ru/poleznaja-informacija/alkogolizm-v-rossii/
            Cook, in 1913 at 6 liters. was there another king? 18 liters in 1995 under the rule of Russophobes such as Olgych spilled onto Russia. This stupid bullshit is your Olgych, so brazenly and stupidly tear out the figure of 0,2 liters and stick it to 18 liters. in YELTSINSKY Russophobic Russia, under the guise of a country of Soviets, this is the deceit and insolence of the true Olga-Bandera.

            18 liters is your figure for 91 years, alkgoliki, the maximum in Russia was 4.7 liters. But you captured Russia, pr. 0,2 liters.

            Yes, do not forget that yours. Soviet record (FIRST PLACE in the world for alcohol consumption - not broken by any other country.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            What is so, I suddenly forgot about the killings, and Olgych, full of memory, ayayay


            chop on your forehead. ignoramus power is first places in the world by alcoholism. abortion. smoking. rape. divorces. to the killings. suicides and inmates.
          17. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 16: 43 New
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            The poor have become prosperous people, And they have died in millions (at the same time) - did they get it?
            Is it clear that at that time no one was safe from hunger? Although it is unlikely to Olga.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            для особо "одарённого" Ольгыча, в голодные годы, задолго до Революции причём, и кулаки голодали, не говоря уж о середняках
            Supplement, and starving, long before the Revolution.
            ... В наших местах крестьянин считается богатым, когда у него хватает своего хлеба до "нови". Такой крестьянин уже не нуждается в продаже своего летнего труда помещику, может все лето работать на себя, а следовательно, будет богатеть, и скоро у него станет хватать хлеба не только до "нови", но и за "новь".

            https://yandex.ru/turbo?text=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.perunica.ru%2Fstfoto%2F10126-zazhitochnoe-krestjanstvo-kulachestvo-vo-vtoroj-polovine-hih-nachale-hh-vv.html
            And this is without any crop failures and other calamities. Just not a laborer the peasant was already considered rich! But then, apparently, the farmer sees Olga on seven tractors, while Olga is.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Ау, прямой вопрос, продублирую для умишка Ольгыча: Признаёт ли Ольгыч польскогеббельсовскую версию расстрела в Катыни истиной, как и Госдума? ДА или НЕТ? Прямая связь с "официально призаными" цифрами голода.
            not the slightest connection.
            Yes, of course, no connection, Olgych and logical connections, really funny. But I’ll try on my fingers: the State Duma recognized the clearly false Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn, which means that the State Duma can recognize obviously falsified data as true. And this means that the figures of those who died of hunger recognized by the Duma can be (in fact, they are) falsified.
            Quote: Olgovich
            According to Katyn, I believe FACTS and DOCUMENTS: in Manchuria, the disappeared Poles were not found, nor were they found a single letter home after May 1940, although before that they regularly wrote.
            where were they from 1940 to summer 1941?
            Goebbels didn’t get to the shooting pits under the Copper, by the way.
            What is Olga swirling wet-tailed creature
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And again: a direct question, for Olgych: Does Olgych recognize the Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn as true, like the State Duma? Yes or no?
            Yes or no?
            Про Медное, немцы в Медном БЫЛИ. Об этом есть на сайте администрации с. Медное. Зато поляки там во второй свой визит нарушив все правила раскопок, без присмотра российских властей навалили привезенных с собой "доказательств" в раскоп
            Quote: Olgovich
            18 liters is your figure for 91 years, alkgoliki, the maximum in Russia was 4.7 liters. But you captured Russia, pr. 0,2 liters.
            Olgych pretends or really such a degenerate ?! Here is the data with the link!
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            in 1910 - 4,7 liters, 1913 - a little more than 6 liters.
            Since 1914, an anti-alcohol company began in Russia, which allowed it to reduce the figures to a record level of 0,2 liters per year. The Soviet government in the first years of its reign also directed all its forces to maintaining a sober lifestyle among citizens. This policy bore fruit until the 60s of the last century. If in 1960 the level of alcohol consumption per person was 3,9 liters per year, then in 1970 - 6,7 liters, in the mid-80s - 11 liters, in 5 - 1994 liters, in 15 - 1995 liters in year
            6 liters in 1913, 0,2 with a direct ban !, (how is it with moonshine, why? Was moonshine considered in official statistics?) And 18 liters in 1995! Under Yeltsin, America’s best friend! Well, what a stupidity to lie right at the given data!
            Quote: Olgovich
            chop on your forehead. ignoramus power is the first place in the world in alcoholism. abortion. smoking. rape. divorces. to the killings. suicides and prisoners ... Yes, do not forget that yours. Soviet record (FIRST PLACE in the world for alcohol consumption - not broken by any other country.
            Приведёт ли "учёный", (как попугай видимо) Ольгыч доказательства этой идиотии? Он ведь ответить ДА или НЕТ не в состоянии.
            And again: a direct question, for Olgych: Does Olgych recognize the Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn as true, like the State Duma? Yes or no?
          18. Olgovich
            Olgovich 15 May 2020 06: 57 New
            -2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Is it clear that at that time no one was safe from hunger? Although it is unlikely to Olga.

            There has never been such a disaster in history.

            has reached. not?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Supplement, and starving, long before the Revolution.

            Before the Thief, tens of years after 1892, they did not die.

            But under YOU, after the Thief, many MILLIONS died: 21,22,24,25,27,32,33,37,46,47 yy-in the middle of the 20th century - DISAPPOINT!
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Yes or no?
            Про Медное, немцы в Медном БЫЛИ. Об этом есть на сайте администрации с. Медное. Зато поляки там во второй свой визит нарушив все правила раскопок, без присмотра российских властей навалили привезенных с собой "доказательств" в раскоп

            1. More YES than NO.
            for not a single trace living people after spring 40 g - NO.

            2. They reached the Copper, but NO to the graves.

            3. "Навалили поляки "? В ....России? fool lol
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            6 liters in 1913, 0,2 with a direct ban !, (how is it with moonshine, why? Was moonshine considered in official statistics?) And 18 liters in 1995! Under Yeltsin, America’s best friend! Well, what a stupidity to lie right at the given data!

            Your data - into the tube and there, yeah! yes

            to the thief -0,2 l the maximum in Russia was 4,7 liters.
            USSR in the mid-1980s14,9l-FIRST PLACE IN THE WORLD! For alcoholics, first, for deaths from alcohol, first.
            A half-drunk village ...
            disgrace ......
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Приведёт ли "учёный", (как попугай видимо) Ольгыч доказательства этой идиотии?

            is there really a school for those with developmental delays? belay
            "Сама. сама!" lol hi
          19. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 15 May 2020 13: 51 New
            -1
            What is the use of referring to the degenerate shrill Olgych, he does not cite any evidence other than Russophobic clicks.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And again: a direct question, for Olgych: Does Olgych recognize the Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn as true, like the State Duma? Yes or no?
            Hey, a wet-tailed shrill creature under the nickname Olgych, no answer is visible from Olgych.
          20. Olgovich
            Olgovich 16 May 2020 08: 39 New
            -2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            What is the point of linking for degenerative shrill Olgych, he then does not cite any evidence except Russophobian clicks.

            but there are no such: -NO Soviet research. analyzes. reports of commissions on the number of starvation deaths in Bolshevik rule. About the cattle case is. about the death of millions of people-NO

            priorities are visible clearly
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            wet-tailed shrill creature

            Вовочка из 2-го "У" never grew over 50 years. lol laughing
    3. ccsr
      ccsr 14 May 2020 19: 29 New
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      in Manchuria, the disappeared Poles were not found, nor were they found a single letter home after May 1940,

      Я вам уже один раз задал вопрос - что стало с польскими военнослужащими, которые находились в тюрьме "Бригидки", которая была захвачена немцами 22 июня со всеми заключенными на окраине Брестской крепости. Таких тюрем на территории только Белоруссии было более тридцати (по некоторым данным около 50), в которых находились заключенные поляки, и которые не были эвакуированы вглубь СССР после начала войны. Ни поляки, ни немцы никогда не упоминают о их судьбе в своих документах, которые они открыли - с чего бы это?
    4. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 May 2020 07: 04 New
      -3
      Quote: ccsr
      Я вам уже один раз задал вопрос - что стало с польскими военнослужащими, которые находились в тюрьме "Бригидки", которая была захвачена немцами 22 июня со всеми заключенными на окраине Брестской крепости. Таких тюрем на территории только Белоруссии было более тридцати (по некоторым данным около 50), в которых находились заключенные поляки, и которые не были эвакуированы вглубь СССР после начала войны. Ни поляки, ни немцы никогда не упоминают о их судьбе в своих документах, которые они открыли - с чего бы это?

      I do not know.

      So what?

      imagine the traces of the LIVING Poles (which are installed in the burials) after spring 1940 to summer 1941Letters, applications, documents, etc. .. Until the spring of 1940, they are, after-no.
    5. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 15 May 2020 14: 37 New
      -1
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      What is Olga swirling wet-tailed creature
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And again: a direct question, for Olgych: Does Olgych recognize the Polish-Goebbels version of the execution in Katyn as true, like the State Duma? Yes or no?
  • Icelord
    Icelord 7 June 2020 17: 32 New
    0
    While there is no official refutation, of course the truth
  • ccsr
    ccsr 15 May 2020 10: 20 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    itiots-do not notice -Digits-RUSSIAN official. .

    А что наши "официальные цифры" не могли быть искажены в угоду политической конъюнктуры алкаша президента? Вы еще расскажите про чеченскую войну со слов Березовского, который тогда якобы вызволял пленных "за свои деньги", а на самом деле имел большой гешефт от контактов с главарями бандформирований. Так что не стоит спекулировать на "официальных цифрах" той поры - Явлинский убеждал всех что нам выгоден "Сахалин-1", а оказалась что благодаря ему мы до сих пор практически ничего от этого проекта не получаем. Впрочем и так понятно, что вы используете термин "официальные цифры" того времени, когда вас приперают к стенке из-за откровенных подтасовок, и не более.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 May 2020 09: 02 New
    -2
    Quote: ccsr
    А что наши "официальные цифры" не могли быть искажены в угоду политической конъюнктуры алкаша президента?

    the wino died long ago by that moment, what conjuncture?
    Quote: ccsr
    Вы еще расскажите про чеченскую войну со слов Березовского, который тогда якобы вызволял пленных "за свои деньги", а на самом деле имел большой гешефт от контактов с главарями бандформирований. Так что не стоит спекулировать на "официальных цифрах" той поры - Явлинский убеждал всех что нам выгоден "Сахалин-1", а оказалась что благодаря ему мы до сих пор практически ничего от этого проекта не получаем.

    don’t bother with your head and bring nonsense about INCOMPARABLE things — which Chechens have been cheating for 33 years?
    Quote: ccsr
    . Впрочем и так понятно, что вы используете термин "официальные цифры" того времени, когда вас приперают к стенке из-за откровенных подтасовок, и не более.

    who pinned and, most importantly. than?
    YELLOW? lol

    Millions of starvation victims are not disputed by anyone, except for frank tebils.

    Есть данные историков, демографов, ученых , ОФИЦИАЛЬНАЯ ГОСУДАРСТВЕННАЯ оценка, им противостоит ОфициаЛЬНОЕ совесткое молчание и ЛОЖЬ и жалкое блеяние вовочек из 2 У" lol
  • ccsr
    ccsr 16 May 2020 12: 22 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    the wino died long ago by that moment, what conjuncture?

    Then it was fashionable to water the USSR with shit - you, for example, have still not gotten rid of this habit.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Millions of starvation victims are not disputed by anyone, except for frank tebils.

    The number of millions of dead is disputed, because 3-4 million is one figure, and when they lie that there were more than 10 million, the question arises for what purpose lies are spread like you.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 May 2020 12: 45 New
    0
    Quote: ccsr

    Then it was fashionable to water the USSR with shit - you, for example, have still not gotten rid of this habit.

    how the Bolshevik government SAMA threw itself out in rme-no one else can
    Quote: ccsr
    The number of millions of dead is disputed, because 3-4 million is one figure, and when they lie that there were more than 10 million, the question arises for what purpose lies are spread like you.

    3-4 million .....- not enough ?! belay

    WHERE is your official SOVIET victim rating. reasons for the culprits. and?
  • ccsr
    ccsr 16 May 2020 13: 17 New
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    3-4 million .....- not enough ?!

    No, not a little, but comparing these figures with the losses of tsarist Russia from starvation, when there were much more rural people, it becomes scary why we were the largest exporters of grain, and the people were dying of hunger in the Russian Empire.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 May 2020 14: 26 New
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    No, not a little, but comparing these figures with the losses of tsarist Russia from starvation, when there were much more rural people, it becomes scary why we were the largest exporters of grain, and the people were dying of hunger in the Russian Empire.

    You are ignorant: SUCH. as with yours, in Russia and in the world, it was NEVER.

    and the cannibalistic bread export was precisely in 1930s.

    MILLIONS have already died in 1932 in the spring of 33, and grain exports have been stopped already ....April 1933!

    no words ... negative
  • ccsr
    ccsr 16 May 2020 17: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    You are ignorant: SUCH. as with yours, in Russia and in the world, it was NEVER.

    Enlighten the pathetic liar:
    SHARE OF HUNGERS IN THE POPULATION OF CENTRAL RUSSIA
    (without Poland and without Finland) in 1891-1911 years
    HUNGER: 1891 - 25,7% and 1892 - 9,1%. In 1893 - 0,1%, 1894 - 0,5%, 1895 - 1,1%, 1896 - 2,2%,
    1897 - 3,8%, 1898 - 9,7% 1899 - 3,2%, 1900 - 1,5%.

    At the beginning of the XX century, Russia was hungry in Russia: 1901-1902, 1905-1908 and 1911 - 1912 years.
    In 1901 - 1902, 49 provinces starved: in 1901 - 6,6%, 1902 - 1%, 1903 - 0,6%, 1904 -― 1,6%.
    In 1905 - 1908. starved from 19 to 29 provinces: in 1905 - 7,7%, 1906 - 17,3% of the population
    In 1911 - 1912 over the 2 of the year, famine swept 60 provinces: in 1911 - 14,9% of the population.
    30 million people were on the brink of death.
    According to various estimates in 1901-1912 years. about 8 million people died from hunger and its consequences. The tsarist government was preoccupied with how to hide the scale of hunger. In the press, censorship forbade the use of the word “hunger,” replacing it with the word “underperformance.”
    One can doubt the concrete figures about the number of deaths from starvation, but one cannot doubt that hunger was a regular and widespread phenomenon in tsarist Russia.
    GRAIN FOR EXPORT. Despite the famine, grain flowed from Russia to Europe (as now oil and gas also go to Europe, bypassing Russia). On average, 30% of the bread was exported annually. So, the trade in bread was a necessary measure, and was not at all due to an excess of it. The Tsar’s Minister Vyshnegradsky, answering the accusations of selling bread abroad even during the famine in Russia, said from the rostrum of the State Duma: “We are undernourished, but we’ll take out!” This slogan was implemented.

    http://www.domarchive.ru/history/part-1-empire/61
  • ccsr
    ccsr 15 May 2020 10: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    ИХ анализы катастрофы, гневные статьи в "правде" . известиях" и пр, гневные речи на съездах, на радио, выводы с указанием ПРАВИЛЬНЫХ цифр жертв голода по стране. ими устроенного. КТО мешает?

    А вы не оригинальны - Шпаковский например предлагал нам изучать боевую мощь Красной Армии накануне войны по передовым статьям в "Красной Звезде" и "Правде". Есть такой деятель на просторах интернета как Закорецкий, так тот даже "Пионерскую правду" и журнал "Работницу" рекомендовал изучать, чтобы понять ход замыслов генштаба в предстоящей войне.
    Do you really believe that all the authentic statistics of those years can be found in the editorials of party newspapers? Who's stopping you from relying not on newspaper articles, but at least party archival documents, or even better on the archives of the USSR State Statistics Committee?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 15 May 2020 10: 17 New
    -3
    Quote: ccsr
    But you are not original - Shpakovsky, for example, suggested that we study the combat power of the Red Army on the eve of the war по передовым статьям в "Красной Звезде" и "Правде". Есть такой деятель на просторах интернета как Закорецкий, так тот даже "Пионерскую правду" и журнал "Работницу" рекомендовал изучать, чтобы понять ход замыслов генштаба в предстоящей войне.

    Что , врали "правды"?! belay request

    those. crowded for bd believed yes?
    Quote: ccsr
    Do you really believe that all the authentic statistics of those years can be found in the editorials of party newspapers? Who it’s stopping you from leaning on newspaper articles, and at least party archival documents, or even better to the archives of the Goskomstat of the USSR

    nobody and nothing prevents me from relying on OFFICIAL SOVIET data on the number of starvation deaths and their causes in 32,33,37,46,47.

    But they are NOT!
  • ccsr
    ccsr 15 May 2020 11: 09 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Что , врали "правды"?!

    Вы думаете что Шпаковский в своих книгах вам свет истины доносит? "Правда" - это печатный орган ЦК КПСС и естественно это не столько информационный ресурс, как "Известия", а пропагандистский в первую очередь.
    It is a pity that you and some others do not even understand this when they speculate on articles of those years.
    Quote: Olgovich
    OFFICIAL SOVIET data on the number of starvation deaths and their causes in 32,33,37,46,47.

    Ну так давайте ссылки на них, которые могут изучить читатели ВО, а не ссылайтесь на статьи в "Правде" тех лет.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 May 2020 08: 55 New
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    Do you think that Shpakovsky in his books brings you the light of truth?

    he true DOCUMENTS REPORTS.
    It works for me.

    not happy with those. who was hoping. that this truth will never come up.
    Quote: ccsr
    "Правда" - это печатный орган ЦК КПСС и естественно это не столько информационный ресурс, как "Известия", а пропагандистский в первую очередь.

    Не несите ерунды: "в "Правде" нет известий, а в "известиях" нет правды"-это извесный совесткий афоризм.

    Newspapers did not differ at all. printing the same lies and agitation, depriving people of their LEGAL right to know the truth: they are mugs, you see, according to the Bolsheviks, they didn’t come out.
    Quote: ccsr
    It is a pity that you and some others do not even understand this when they speculate on articles of those years.

    I read them for more than thirty years and don’t think. that you are smarter than others
    Quote: ccsr
    Ну так давайте ссылки на них, которые могут изучить читатели ВО, а не ссылайтесь на статьи в "Правде" тех лет.

    belay lol
    so I write, they are NOT!

    The Communists were afraid to the point of animal paranoid horror and fear of writing the truth about the millions of dead as a result of their experiments.

    WHO would forgive them?

    NONE. would dare them on. .
    they were silent.
  • ccsr
    ccsr 16 May 2020 12: 17 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    I read them for more than thirty years and don’t think. that you are smarter than others

    I am not smarter than others - I just participated in the process of obtaining information for what you later read. Therefore, I know the price of prints, unlike you.
    Quote: Olgovich
    The Communists were afraid to the point of animal paranoid horror and fear of writing the truth about the millions of dead as a result of their experiments.

    They were not afraid of a damn thing by and large - remember the Caribbean crisis, or the war in Vietnam.
    Quote: Olgovich
    WHO would forgive them?

    В вашем "прощении" они точно не нуждаются - их не сильно интересовали мнение маргинальных слоёв общества, они о большинстве населения страны заботились.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 May 2020 12: 40 New
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    I am not smarter than others - I just participated in the process of obtaining information for what you later read. Therefore, I know the price of prints, unlike you.

    цена вашим "изданиям" и, сответственно, Вашегг участия-НОЛЬ.
    Quote: ccsr
    They were not afraid of a damn thing by and large - remember the Caribbean crisis, or the war in Vietnam.

    lol laughing
    Afraid to colic, therefore, they were silent about the CATASTROPHE. They wrote about the death of SCOTT, about the death of MILLION people-cowards.
    Shame ....
    Quote: ccsr
    В вашем "прощении" они точно не нуждаются - их не сильно интересовали мнение маргинальных слоёв общества, они о большинстве населения страны заботились.

    don't you understand Russian at all?

    written about the people of the 30s, who comm. handed marginals considered B.
    again:
    The Communists were afraid to the point of animal paranoid horror and fear of writing the truth about the millions of dead as a result of their experiments.

    WHO would forgive them?

    NONE. would dare them on. .
    they were silent.

    if today from hunger. from September to May, 7 million people died. with mass cannibalism and corpse-eating, who would forgive power, huh?
    Do you think then people were thick-skinned, dumber were they, wanted to live less than you?
  • ccsr
    ccsr 16 May 2020 13: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    if today from hunger. from September to May, 7 million people died. with mass cannibalism and corpse-eating, who would forgive power, huh?

    So with us, and so the demographic losses during the years of democratic Russia have already exceeded all the losses from the Stalinist repressions - so think about who was better concerned about preserving the people.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Do you think then people were thick-skinned, dumber were they, wanted to live less than you?

    No, I don’t think, on the contrary I think that they were great workers and worked for future generations. Only this new generation, in the person of people like you, proved that they tried in vain, since you spit on the past, numbing those who led the people to Victory and the second in the world GDP.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 May 2020 14: 18 New
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    So with us, and so the demographic losses during the years of democratic Russia have already exceeded all the losses from the Stalinist repressions - so think about who was better concerned about preserving the people.

    To think, you still need to KNOW that NO ONE generation born after 1910, i.e. , practically ALL soviet generations-Did NOT reproduce themselves.
    Extinction since 1964, by 1991, the old people, few youth, who will give birth, eh?
    Quote: ccsr
    No, I don’t think, on the contrary I think that they were great workers and worked for future generations.

    that is yes.
    while the attitude was towards them, as above
    Quote: ccsr
    Only this new generation, in the person of people like you, proved that they tried in vain, since you spit in the past who brought people to Victory and the second in the world of GDP.

    And how without these drivers Russia was saved for HUNDREDS in HUNDREDS of wars? belay

    а привели они-без всяких внешних войн и катаклизмов-к КатаСТРОФЕ 91 и Русккому кресту-. таков итог "водителей".
    Like? not for me.
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri 13 May 2020 12: 46 New
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    "Население Советского Союза. 1922-1991"
    [EAT. Andreev, L.E. Darsky, T.L. Kharkov. Demographic History of Russia: 1927-1957]

    Olgovich, you, as always, refer to very controversial studies. The fact is that E.M. Andreev, L.E. Darsky, T.L. Kharkov. tighten up the numbers as they want, applying on nothing but their own convictions, an unfounded method of calculating the error correction of the statistics of the registry office and the calculations of TSUNHU. (Is it really convenient? Everything seems to be science-like, and you can count everything that your heart desires!)
    But you are probably not interested in such trifles. The main thing for you is to count more and more terrible.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 18: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: HanTengri
    Olgovich, you, as always, refer to very controversial studies
    Are you kidding, is this a link in the 21st century? Olgych simply sprinkles with a mass of lines pulled out how and from where, (https://echo.msk.ru/blog/aillar/657314-echo/) from here for example, and for him Conquest the authority that the diagnosis. Minus from Olgych I blocked you. )))
    And so,
    But even, based on the ratio of the number of deaths to the number of starving people equal to 10%, the number of victims of hunger in Ukraine will be less than 500 thousand people. So, the number of victims of famine in Ukraine is in the range of 0,5-0,94 million people.

    https://stalinism.ru/kollektivizatsiya/taynyi-goloda-30-h.html
    as an example of calculations about hundreds of thousands of starvation victims.
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri 13 May 2020 19: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Are you kidding, is this a link in the 21st century?

    Для меня - да. Я это, с позволения сказать, "исследование" читал. (И, видимо, даже раньше, чем до него добрался Ольгович.)
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 14 May 2020 02: 55 New
    0
    Quote: HanTengri
    And, apparently, even before Olgovich got to him
    In the case of Olga, he did not read such a 99% probability. )))
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 15 May 2020 13: 13 New
    -2
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    But even, based on the ratio of the number of deaths to the number of starving people equal to 10%, the number of victims of hunger in Ukraine will be less than 500 thousand people. So, the number of victims of famine in Ukraine is in the range of 0,5-0,94 million people.

    https://stalinism.ru/kollektivizatsiya/taynyi-goloda-30-h.html

    This crazy tebil myroninia .... sigismund lol with a psychopath friend Mukhin, turn into a tube and, yes! yes

    In comparison with the monographs of SCIENTISTS, these ignorant libel-stupid propanagadas are pitiful and shameful lol
  • kalibr
    12 May 2020 12: 56 New
    +1
    Is it worth it? Before you was VIKI. You saw in it only what you wanted. Look again, I brought you its subtitles above ... But I will certainly find interesting materials for you ...
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 13: 04 New
      -1
      Those. Are you unable to link? And what then to poke this GARF site, then you lie even in this smallness. But then Wiki with often crooked articles is authority, yes.
      1. kalibr
        12 May 2020 14: 02 New
        +3
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Those. Are you unable to link? And what then to poke this GARF site, then you lie even in this smallness. But then Wiki with often crooked articles is authority, yes.

        Я не занимался этой темой. Что есть с ссылками на архивы перед Вами. Если Вас так интересует эта тема... свяжусь с архивами и напишу статью на основе предоставленных данных. А "кавалерийские наскоки" я не одобряю...
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 14: 16 New
          -2
          Quote: kalibr
          You can go to the GARF website, there is a whole selection of documents about hunger in the USSR. Everything is...

          Quote: kalibr
          I did not deal with this topic.
          А что же врать то тогда? Ссылку не приведёте на "целую подборку документов"? А, я и забыл, нет её, враньё Ваше есть, а подборки нет.
          1. kalibr
            12 May 2020 15: 24 New
            +2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            А что же врать то тогда? Ссылку не приведёте на "целую подборку документов"? А, я и забыл, нет её, враньё Ваше есть, а подборки нет.

            Will you bring a Wikipedia passage for the third time? If all the numbers are added, then there will be millions. Documents in front of you. With links to archives. One must be blind so as not to see them. Do you want a selection of documents? She will, do not worry. I just did not deal with this topic. And for starters, Wikipedia is enough. Everything that is used from it is taken from the section in bold. So do not rush. Rushing well when catching fleas. I’ll contact the archives, get copies of the documents and we will have another article, and not one, most likely, about the famine of 1932–33. It’s a pity that there are problems with the virus now and I personally can’t visit many of the archives. But this is a temporary difficulty ...
          2. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 05: 29 New
            +1
            http://www.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/1933.shtml
            The heaviest unit the document reports no more than
            According to additional (far from complete) data, during the past months of 1932, 14549 people died on the basis of industrial difficulties, of which 2500 died in September and October.
            And that’s all, the rest is about hundreds of deaths, dozens and isolated cases of starvation deaths! Hard reading, but you won’t be able to count millions! And at the same time no less than documents on food assistance, food loans and other things. And there is direct sabotage or squandering and theft. No way to count millions! Если Вы не украинский "историк" конечно.
          3. kalibr
            13 May 2020 06: 47 New
            +1
            Look at the comment of KHAN TENGRI ... Here on the site ... He is not a Ukrainian historian ...

            And here is what he writes: Super Mortality FOR ALL !!! The USSR for 1932-33, calculated on the basis of the data of the registry office and TsUNHU, is 3,2 - 3,4 million .. So, yes, millions.

            And now what I write: You yourself all started it. Nobody, including myself, knows everything. I once saw something ... But I don’t keep it in my head. So be patient and wait. And everything will be for you, and articles, and archives, and millions - all-all!
          4. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 07: 01 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            He is not a Ukrainian historian
            А какой он историк? Без ссылки мутная таблица и ничем не подтверждённые слова это признак историка? А, ну да, ссылку на ГАРФ Вы так и не дали, к Вики апеллируете, "российские" ученые на поверку у Вас выходят щирыми голморисследователями, так что да историк. Все признаки.
          5. sniperino
            sniperino 16 May 2020 10: 08 New
            +1
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            "российские" ученые на поверку у Вас выходят щирыми голморисследователями
            Во-первых, Кульчицкий был нормальным советским профессором из Одессы, получившим задание от ЦК в 1985 году и одним из первых засевшим в архивах для исследования вопроса. Во-вторых, архивы про голод 32-33 гг. до 1985 г. были закрыты. Спрашивается, для чего? В-третьих, результатом работы Кульчицкого стал тезис о том, что отряды, изымавшие хлеб в других регионах, на Украине изымали не только хлеб, но и другие продукты, поэтому и погибших от голода было заметно больше. Этот тезис и надо обсуждать, т.к. цифры 2,5-3,5 миллиона - это не его статистика. Это могло быть вызвано уровнем саботажа, проявленном при раскулачивании-расказачивании, стремлением троцкистов вновь разжечь пожар гражданской войны в СССР на фоне маячившего в Европе национал-социализма, либо иными причинами. Связали мотив с этносом и Сталиным, получился "голодомор". С темой "миллионов" это слабо связано.
          6. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 16 May 2020 13: 41 New
            0
            Quote: sniperino
            Firstly, Kulchitsky was a normal Soviet professor from Odessa, who received a task from the Central Committee in 1985 and was one of the first to be archived to study the issue
            Exactly what was.
            Quote: sniperino
            This thesis should be discussed as well. figures 2,5-3,5 million - this is not his statistics
            I will not argue reluctantly with these numbers, thanks Khan Tengri, looked at copies of statistical documents. It is debatable that all the dead died of hunger.
            Quote: sniperino
            Связали мотив с этносом и Сталиным, получился "голодомор"

            But at the same time, the numbers were extremely clocked up, but I think that you already know this.
  • kalibr
    12 May 2020 13: 18 New
    +4
    From the informational summary of the Secret Political Department of the GPU on hunger in the North Caucasus
    7 March 1933 city
    Comrade Menzhinsky, Berry, Prokofiev, Agranov
    In certain settlements of a number of districts of the JCC, aggravation of industrial difficulties is noted.
    Facts of difficulty in the areas: Kurganinsky, Armavirsky, Novo-Aleksandrovsky, Labinsky, Nevinnomyssky, Mozdoksky, Essentuki, Crimean, Anapsky, Yeisk, Staro-Minsk, Kushchevsky, Tikhoretsky, Medvezhensky, Novo-Pokrovsky, Kanevsky, Krasnodar, Pavlovsky , Veshensky, Kalmyk, Konstantinovsky and Timashevsky.
    According to far incomplete data in these areas, the following has been taken into account:
    1742 people swollen from hunger.
    898 people became ill from starvation.
    740 people starved to death.
    Cases of cannibalism and carcass 10 people.
    In starving settlements, there are cases of eating various surrogates: meat of dead animals (including hoe horses), dead cats, dogs, rats, etc.
    TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 4. Op. 11. D. 42. L. 62. A certified copy.
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 13: 18 New
      +4
      From the report of the head of the political department of the Samoilovsky MTS of the Lower Volga Region D. Mikhailenko about the difficult food situation on collective farms
      17 May 1933 city
      ... Some collective farmers in Elovatka have not been working since March, some collective farmers still participated in early sowing as seeders, but later they did not go to work, some of them were already expelled from the collective farms as loafers. By a personal examination on May 15 and 16, I found that a number of honest and conscientious collective farmers did not go out and did not go to work just because they were exhausted and had swelling on the body (chubby legs, face, stomach, constipation, etc.), because that from systematic malnutrition have become disabled.
      I found that the feldsher point in Elovatka daily receives 10−20 people a day. patients due to exhaustion (with edema). I personally examined a number of collective farms and came to the conclusion that in Yelovatka hunger swept over most of the farms and threatened the extinction of collective farmers. Over the past 10 days, 45 people have died in Elovatka. (from 1 to 10 years old - 16 people, from 18 to 50 years old - 11 people and older than 50 years old - 18 people) There were cases when the bodies were not cleaned for several days due to the helpless state of other members of the deceased's family and in while able-bodied collective farmers are in the field. Found the facts of the burial of collective farmers on their estates without coffins. There was a case when two starving people went hunting for ground squirrels and didn’t return from there - they died at the ground squirrels ...
      Head of Political Department D. Mikhailenko
      RGASPI. F. 112. On. 32. D. 78. L. 26-27.
      1. kalibr
        12 May 2020 13: 20 New
        +3
        Спецсводка Секретно-политического отдела ОГПУ "О продовольственных затруднениях в Казахстане"
        November 5 1932 city
        Difficulties observed in several regions of Kazakhstan continue to worsen.
        According to additional (far from complete) data, during the past months of 1932, 14549 people died on the basis of industrial difficulties, of which 2500 died in September and October.
        Currently, Turgai, Batbakkarinsky, Karsakpaysky and Kuva districts are experiencing particularly acute food difficulties. In these areas, agriculture is extremely undermined, livestock are almost completely destroyed, and the fields remain sown.
        In the Batbakkarinsky and Turgai regions, the population is starving. Kazakhs feed on roots, ground squirrels, and mice collected in the steppe. The rooms of the RIKs are full of starving people, who immediately die.
        In the Turgai region, where 50% of the crops were killed, 5 people died of starvation before October 4452. Every day, an average of 20 people die. In the district of 77 thousand people. have absolutely no food.
        There are 8400 people in the Batbakkarinsky district without bread, and 900 farms organized on the collective farm have 100 hectares of crops.
        В Кувском районе в колхозе "Жана-Жол" колхозники, колхозницы и малолетние дети при отсутствии другого продовольствия питаются только зеленью. В этом же районе в колхозе Шуакал ежедневно умирают от голода по 3-4 колхозника. В Карсакпайском районе ежедневно умирает по 2-3 чел.
        In some areas, those in need of emergency food assistance make up between 50 and 95% of the population. So, in the Abralinsky district, 95% of the total population needs bread, in Kuva - 85%, Bayan-Aulsky - 60%, Pavlogradsky - 50%.
        The following areas are also in dire need of food assistance: Chelkarsky, Tabyn, Atbasarsky, Akmolinsky, Zhana-Arkinsky and others.
        In a number of regions of the East Kazakhstan and Karaganda regions, where until very recently, due to scarcity, acute difficulties were observed, and now, after a new crop failure, the population is provided with food only for the first one or two months. In these areas, there are already isolated cases of starvation and swelling.
        The population of the starving regions is directed and settles, mainly in industrial cities and especially in Karaganda and Karsakpay. Since a significant part of the Kazakhs arriving in masses does not find work at local industrial enterprises, mortality and diseases from exhaustion are highly developed among them.
        Without effective food assistance and the organization of auxiliary work and handicrafts for the Kazakh population, a number of regions of the Eastern, Karaganda, Alma-Ata and Aktobe regions. a month or two after harvest threatens a serious aggravation of difficulties. The decrease in starvation deaths and diseases from depletion that has recently been observed in a number of areas was the result of the provision of partial food assistance by the government and, in part, due to the theft of stalk bread, which became widespread in the Kazakh regions.
        From the Turgai and Batbakkarinsky districts, as from the regions of inedible and boneless, currently 8 thousand farms are moving to adjacent bread districts of Semiozerny, Fedorovsky and others. This relocation almost exposes the Turgai and Batbakarinsky districts from the population.
        Kazkrayk informed about the situation with the difficulties in the regions of Kazakhstan.
        Head SPO OGPU Molchanov
        Pom. Head of Department 2
        SPO OGPU Sidorov
        TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 2. On. 10. D. 514. L. 234-236.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 13 May 2020 05: 28 New
          +1
          http://www.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/1933.shtml
          The heaviest unit the document reports no more than
          According to additional (far from complete) data, during the past months of 1932, 14549 people died on the basis of industrial difficulties, of which 2500 died in September and October.
          And that’s all, the rest is about hundreds of deaths, dozens and isolated cases of starvation deaths! Hard reading, but you won’t be able to count millions! And at the same time no less than documents on food assistance, food loans and other things. And there is direct sabotage or squandering and theft.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 15 May 2020 10: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      From the informational summary of the Secret Political Department of the GPU on hunger in the North Caucasus

      This report refutes the lie that the Bolsheviks staged a famine in Ukraine - it turns out that at that time there was even a famine in the Krasnodar Territory. Moreover, the very number of dead (740) for such a relatively large number of regions is not so great, and does not draw hundreds of thousands or millions of dead.
      1. kalibr
        15 May 2020 11: 14 New
        +2
        Quote: ccsr
        This report refutes the lie that the Bolsheviks staged a famine in Ukraine - it turns out that at that time there was even a famine in the Krasnodar Territory.

        Absolutely. D.Sc. Professor V.V. Kondrashin spoke about this very well in 2010 to his Ukrainian colleagues at a scientific conference. But wait for the judgment of millions ...
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 16 May 2020 10: 36 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          But wait for the judgment of millions
          Вот именно! Чуть выше написал, что в конструкции "голодомора" самыми слабыми элементами, нмв, являются нацистская мотивация ("против украинцев") и личное участие Сталина в перегибах на местах, коли таковые имелись, а то, что имелись, в этом у меня меньше сомнений. Сталину это зачем было, если он не с украинцами, а с троцкистами боролся в этот период.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 12 May 2020 10: 02 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich


    And we have?

    1934 г, только что в стране умерли миллионы людей от голода , а "Веселые ребята " вовсю поют "Легко на сердце..." и "тюх-тюх-тюх, разгорелся наш утюг...". призывая радоваться всю страну...

    Buna deminyase!
    That's right - life has become better, life has become more fun!
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 12 May 2020 07: 40 New
    +4
    The author can not sell this waste paper in any way? Have you unfastened your ads?
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 08: 54 New
      +4
      Quote: sergo1914
      Have you unfastened your ads?

      And why is it that people raised under the USSR are always so worried about money issues, moreover, in someone else's wallet? Or do you think that the site administration is not viewing all the materials coming to it?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 12 May 2020 07: 55 New
    +5
    Thanks for the article, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    reaching an audience of 314 million people,
    It became interesting the origin of this number? According to the 1910 census, the US population was 92,2 million.
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 08: 02 New
      +1
      This is a committee count. They considered people who came to his events. That is, someone came both twice and thrice ...
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 12 May 2020 08: 10 New
        +2
        Sorry, Vyacheslav Olegovich, but then the phrase is incorrectly written, in my opinion, it hurts the eye.
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 08: 40 New
          +2
          Well, maybe. But right now it's stupid to fix it.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 12 May 2020 10: 08 New
      0
      Hello Anton hi
      Perhaps the whole English-speaking audience, including the WB and the colonies, was meant?
  • lucul
    lucul 12 May 2020 08: 52 New
    +5
    Creel Committee: Heavy Duty Weapon

    Here is also a good American doc film on this subject - From the Shadows:
    https://youtu.be/uW86cFB6WRM
  • Slavs
    Slavs 12 May 2020 10: 01 New
    +3
    But this article by Comrade Shpakovsky is really informative ...
    But in connection with the image of the author established at VO, not everyone will accept it ...
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 10: 23 New
      +2
      He catches the sounds of approval
      Not in the sweet murmur of praise,
      And in the wild cries of bitterness.
      ON THE. Nekrasov, 1952.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 12 May 2020 12: 45 New
        +2
        ON THE. Nekrasov, 1952.
        1852 год, Вячеслав Олегович. И, если точно, совсем не по теме. Стихотворение "Блажен незлобивый поэт" было направлено против эстетов, призывавших к уходу от действительной жизни.
        Where did you find them on the site? Suvorov with Olgovich esthetes? The fact that they are already quite far from realities is not aesthetics; it smells more like dementia.
        As for public opinion and the ways to manipulate it, it seems to me that since you have already begun to cover this issue, then for the sane reader it would be necessary to somehow somehow state it. And then wears you, sorry for the comparison, like a broom in a bathhouse.
        You should not start with the pharaohs, but with fama publica or vox et fama communis you can already. Then Shakespeare, John Locke and so step by step to ... Well, if you think you have made a significant contribution to this issue, to to Shpakovsky. Although, as for me, Lipman is more worthy of the article. But everything is in your hands.
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 13: 25 New
          +3
          Quote: Undecim
          But everything is in your hands.

          That's it, that's why everything will be the way I like it, and the way I consider it necessary. But the broom in the bathhouse is a necessary thing, and don’t say ... And by personalities and Lipman there will be Ivy Lee ... there is enough time ahead. You can’t do it all at once ... Next time it will be about my personal experience, then about the Second World War ... then ... then it will be later!
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 12 May 2020 13: 36 New
            +2
            That's it, that's why everything will be the way I like it, and the way I consider it necessary.
            Да кто ж спорит-то? Хотя запросы аудитории не стоит игнорировать. А с другой стороны, в статью о Тарде сложно ввернуть о "личном опыте"... Как там Цицерон говорил: "Даже те философы, которые писали трактаты против славы, не забывали ставить свое имя в заголовке своей книги."
            1. kalibr
              12 May 2020 13: 59 New
              +1
              Quote: Undecim
              Although the requests of the audience should not be ignored.

              It is sacred. But the audience is also ... different, Viktor Nikolaevich. There is one that thinks, there is one that puts clicks ... The balance must be respected!
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 12 May 2020 18: 26 New
                +2
                It even became interesting to which audience I belong? laughing
                1. kalibr
                  12 May 2020 18: 36 New
                  +3
                  You, Anton, belong to a very good audience with which it is pleasant to talk and discuss, which asks interesting questions that are always pleasant to answer. Such an audience in my opinion is a gift of fate.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 12 May 2020 19: 13 New
                    +1
                    Thank you for your kind words, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Most of all in our communication I am attracted by your courage to admit your ignorance in some issues.
                    1. kalibr
                      12 May 2020 20: 36 New
                      +2
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      Your courage to admit your ignorance in some issues

                      Well, I'm not a fool! Only they all know and make no mistakes.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 May 2020 21: 02 New
          -2
          Quote: Undecim
          Where did you find them on the site? Suvorov with Olgovich esthetes? The fact that they are already quite far from realities is not aesthetics; it smells more like dementia.


          This narcissistic smug mug, which through the lip, down and like. diagnoses, apparently, considers himself ... an esthete? belay lol

          banned for MAT and rudeness в комментариях в его прежних , "курьезной" и пр жизнях (за что посетители сайта брезговали ( и до сих пор брезгуют) общаться с ним)? request

          Передайте этому,увы, несколько туповатому (раз не знает элементарных вещей)" эстету" ( а еще лучше- его опекунам!) , что именно психи и считают себя самыми, что ни на есть, ...здоровыми людьми.
          And they should, it is worth taking care .....hi
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 12 May 2020 16: 13 New
    +4
    Good article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. hi
    From myself, I want to add that the methods of information impact on the population for a hundred years, although they have stepped far forward, but the basic principles of propaganda have remained unchanged. And in general, no one is able to resist well-organized information pressure, even if he is at least seven spans in the forehead. If a person is in the general information space, he will absorb it, whether he wants it or not, and, accordingly, this space will affect him.
    There is, however, one way to weaken this influence. It is necessary to form a stable installation within yourself, which will automatically ignore all information influences that do not fit into it. Here, by the way, it should be noted that the wider the range of topics covered by this installation, the dumber and more limited its carrier becomes, so it is important not to overdo it in this matter. smile Кстати, несколько ярких примеров людей, которым, сознательно или нет, судить не берусь, создать такую непробиваемую установку вполне удалось, можно наблюдать и здесь на сайте. Про таких говорят "хоть кол на голове теши". smile The influx of information from outside does not affect their worldview. smile
    А вот интересно - есть какие-то специальные универсальные тонкие методики по преодолению таких установок? В свое время, кода мне часто приходилось проводить допросы, я на основе учебников по юридической психологии и криминалистике, а больше на собственной интуиции, разработал несколько алгоритмов по преодолению сопротивления допрашиваемого. Правда, помогали они только мне и не всегда, но все-таки помогали. И это, все-таки беседа один на один или один против двоих (я имею в виду адвоката). А вот как, например, чисто теоретически можно разработать такую программу информационного воздействия, чтобы, например, всех уверовавших в истинность "новой хронологии" - людей разного возраста, пола, рода занятий, достатка, интеллектуального потенциала, проживающих в разных местах - вернуть в реальный мир, чтобы они поняли и осознали, что учение Фоменко суть даже не заблуждение, а откровенная и прямая ложь? Или тут действенны только прямые меры, основанные на административном ресурсе - цензура, контроль, запреты и репрессии, сопряженные с активной контрпропагандой? Ну, то есть, как это водится во всем цивилизованном мире?
    А вообще мне нравится это слово - "пропаганда", особенно в сочетании со словом "государственная". И чего народ его так не любит? "Нас обманывают!" Конечно, обманывают. А вы что, никого не обманываете? Лично я не могу сказать о себе, что всегда и со всеми был абсолютно честен, как не могу сказать, что был всегда честен и с государством. Если здесь найдется человек, который сможет сказать о себе, что он честен абсолютно всегда и со всеми, то... этому лжецу я не поверю. smile
    Lies, deceit, underreporting, etc. - an integral part of our life, we need them no less than air. Well, maybe a little less. smile А уж в государственной деятельности, в политике это самый основной инструмент, "основнее" нет. smile
    And here I want to ask my colleagues one question. What do you think is better - when the state has reached perfection in propaganda, that is, in deceiving everyone who needs it and does it in such a way that no one, not a single person (except complete paranoid people, mentally ill people) suspects that he is a victim of fraud, or when the propaganda of the state is clumsy and shines through, so that more than half of those who are its goal do not believe in all these nonsense and are intensely seeking the truth? In which state would you like to live? In other words, what is better - to be qualitatively deceived without a chance to find out the truth or to be always in search of this truth?
    The question is directly created for discussion under a good bottle, I understand. But anyway? smile
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 17: 24 New
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      In other words, what is better - to be qualitatively deceived without a chance to find out the truth or to be always in search of this truth?

      Страшно, мне с Вами, Михаил! Я хотел к этому подвести исподволь, так сказать...через то, что "красивое всегда совершенно", а "совершенное красиво" даже если оно и безобразно. Уже и второй материал по ПР об этом написал... И тут Вы... все поняли, все выложили... Очень хороший комментарий. Пиши я сейчас книгу... "украл бы" в текст (с разрешения, конечно!), потому как очень продумано. О методах обхода "непробиваемых"... Можно найти, но только в личном контакте. Вот как у Вас - следователя. На расстоянии, не зная о человеке ничего практически... нереально.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 12 May 2020 20: 29 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        I wanted to bring this gradually

        Excuse me generously, I did not want to ... smile
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, I, like every person, love to be praised, even if I doubt that it is deserved. smile
        По поводу "непробиваемых" - неужели нет какой-то методики, позволяющей проанализировать их общую установку (может быть, единственное общее, что у них есть), и подобрать "ключики" к ее разрушению?
        Хотя, я, наверное, если бы такую универсальную методику выработал, держал бы ее в секрете, как атомную бомбу, от греха подальше. Вспоминается рассказ или повесть Александра Беляева "Мистер Смех". Ну его на фиг, там герой плохо закончил. smile
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 20: 41 New
          +1
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I, like every person, love to be praised, even if I doubt that it is deserved.
          По поводу "непробиваемых" - неужели нет какой-то методики, позволяющей проанализировать их общую установку (может быть, единственное общее, что у них есть), и подобрать "ключики" к ее разрушению?

          Well, it's true ... in terms of praise
          And as regards the methodology ... for example, I don’t really like children, not even very much. But he worked with them and for many years. And most of all he was afraid that they would notice it in the eyes. But ... no one noticed. So it’s very difficult to find such a technique without knowing the person.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 12 May 2020 19: 35 New
      +2
      Which state would I like to live in? Good question! In that which, while promoting an idea, is honest with its citizens.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 12 May 2020 20: 22 New
        +2
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        honestly with your citizens.

        In which officials do not abuse, managers do not row kickbacks, workers do not steal, the police do not take bribes, etc.
        That is, in a fictional. smile
        A state that is honest with its citizens is where you are the president, I am the prime minister, and there is no one else. And then, about myself, I'm not very sure. smile
        The paradox and justice of life is that the state consists of people, and an honest state should consist of honest people, but where to get so many if there are none? Well, if someone has the hope that a dishonest person will come to power and become honest - well, then medicine is powerless.
        smile
        1. kalibr
          12 May 2020 20: 47 New
          0
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          consist of honest people, but where to get so many if there are none?

          Genghis Khan also asked such a question ... but he also could not find an answer!
      2. kalibr
        12 May 2020 20: 45 New
        0
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        In that which, while promoting an idea, is honest with its citizens.

        У моей дочери в ее кандидатской диссертации есть об этом отличный пример. В Чапаевске начали строить завод по ликвидации хим.оружия на деньги американцев. Те приехали посмотреть, как они тратятся. Спрашивают: а где деньги на обработку общественного мнения, чтобы оно было "за". А чиновники им: "А у нас и так все "за". А там за окном митинг протеста идет... Американцы посмотрели и говорят: "Неправильно вы деньги расходуете". Больше не дадим. И завод так закончен постройкой и не был! И как вывод: наверное все правительства и все государства обманывают своих граждан, но те, которые обманывают больше других и не извиняются - разваливаются!
        1. Driver d
          Driver d 12 May 2020 22: 54 New
          +1
          We must study the experience of Western Europe, there is an official for people, and not vice versa. In Germany, there are many federal states that can take their own rules of life and managing in them, for example, as a trucker, for example, travel restrictions on some days or environmental restrictions concern me. When an official doesn’t even need to be fired for the slightest violation of public morality, he will quit himself, but no, that’s how the journalists will help ...
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 15 May 2020 10: 47 New
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          Американцы посмотрели и говорят: "Неправильно вы деньги расходуете". Больше не дадим. И завод так закончен постройкой и не был!

          And you are lying in an unscrupulous manner, because the construction stoppage was connected with completely different circumstances, because the Americans themselves slowed down the construction of their chemical ammunition processing plants, citing that they have no finances for this:

          As the diplomat noted, “a completely different picture so far with the elimination of chemical weapons in the United States, which undoubtedly have all the necessary financial, industrial and scientific and technical resources to accomplish this task.”
          However, in spite of this, irresponsibly over and over again delay the deadlines for the complete destruction of their own chemical arsenal. Now it turns out that it is Washington that remains the owner of the world's largest stockpile of chemical weapons - more than 2,5 thousand tons of the most dangerous weapons poisonous substances. Thus, the United States carefully preserves the prohibited for all others type of weapons of mass destruction. Apparently, for some reason they need it,
          stressed Ryabkov.

          https://topwar.ru/134639-ssha-ne-toropyatsya-s-unichtozheniem-himoruzhiya.html
          You can write books on PR technologies, but do not forget that your primitive PR is not perceived by everyone in VO, especially when it touches on issues related to the country's defense capabilities, because there are people here who do not have your propaganda - they know better than you to evaluate it.
          1. kalibr
            15 May 2020 11: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: ccsr
            And you are lying in an unscrupulous manner, because the construction stoppage was connected with completely different circumstances, because the Americans themselves slowed down the construction of their chemical ammunition processing plants, citing that they have no finances for this:

            I think that this will definitely become clear when the time comes to publish excerpts from her dissertation, which will be done as part of the cycle. And maybe the memory let me down in some ways - I already wrote that the memory is imperfect, but to lie on purpose, especially to people, let’s say, biased and not quite adequate in terms of assessments, I consider it below my dignity. Just wait, it will be mandatory! Maybe even a photocopy of the page. And you can find her work on the Internet - she is posted there for free!
            but do not forget that your primitive PR is not perceived by everyone in the military academy, especially when it touches on issues related to the country's defense, because there are people here who do not have your propaganda - they know better than you how to evaluate it.
            But this, to put it mildly, is ridiculous to read to me. The fact that you are writing to me for the umpteenth time and are trying to prove what to me, as it says that what I write affects everyone. But the estimates of these your people, just do not play any role. Do you really not understand this? And the last ... here it is https://topwar.ru/134639-ssha-ne-toropyatsya-s-unichtozheniem-himoruzhiya.html I do not need links.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 15 May 2020 11: 35 New
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              I already wrote that memory is imperfect, but to lie on purpose, especially to people, well, let's say, prejudiced and not quite adequate in terms of assessments, I consider it below my dignity

              А вы концептуально заточены на оболгание нашего прошлого, вот поэтому это не память вас подводит, а просто вы по другому не можете. Причины этого мне давно понятны, у нас до фига непризнанных "гениев" было в советское время, так что это явление не ново.
              Quote: kalibr
              . here it is https://topwar.ru/134639-ssha-ne-toropyatsya-s-unichtozheniem-himoruzhiya.html I do not need links.

              But I don’t take others specifically for you to go to these and raise your VO rating - you see how I worry about your material well-being as the author of this resource.
              1. kalibr
                15 May 2020 13: 19 New
                +1
                As for the first, it is impossible to defame something that itself has already discredited in such a way that there is nowhere else to go, and the second ... so you already raise our rating, so what else should I try. Keep trying. You ... I feel so good.
  • Kushka
    Kushka 12 May 2020 22: 09 New
    -1
    Somehow the guys who organized the BOP were not deservedly bypassed.
    They didn’t have anything at all (radio, access to audiences,
    legal army of agitators). Some kind of gray-pale
    "Искру" печатали у черта на рогах, с огромными ухищрениями
    delivered to Russia, secretly, under the threat of exposure and punishment,
    dragged already beyond the Urals, in the cellars in a whisper read semi-literate
    peasants (wow logistics) - and they did it! Put on ears
    multi-million country! And here is an ode to some American who has
    was the financing of the state, 75 thousand, slaves and even newspapers
    with hollywood in your pocket
    1. kalibr
      12 May 2020 22: 23 New
      +1
      Who told you that they only had a spark? Oh, how wrong you are. But yes. It’s worth telling about it, otherwise you will continue to think so ... And it will be told! Thank you for reminding!
      1. Kushka
        Kushka 12 May 2020 22: 55 New
        0
        Thank! I will be grateful. It seemed to me that these figures
        Well, at least for three years have worked? Honestly, I am a layman in the subject.
        But I have long been plagued by vague doubts about the genius of Goebels.
        Был же у большевиков такой опыт "побочного продукта", как Чан Кай Ши и Голда Меир.
        Похоже, Гебельс оказался одаренным учеником и просто "творчески переосмыслил"
        и приспособил под нужды нацисткой Германии все "ноу-хау" Ленина-Троцкого.
        As a result, we got a deadly battle between two propaganda and as a result
        Vlasov, Lokot republic and Krasnovshchina-trained on their own head,
        so to speak. In short, I do not believe that Goebels is a sort of unique and myself above all
        thought of a genius of darkness. Interestingly, did anyone dig into his library?
    2. gsev
      gsev 12 May 2020 22: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Kushka
      not deservedly bypassed the guys who organized the BOP.

      Propaganda succeeds when it touches some unknown deep strings of popular consciousness. Therefore, the Bolsheviks, overthrew the tsar, defeated the invaders of the 14 powers with all their puppets from the Denikins to the Krasnovs, created industry, defeated the Germans, mastered virgin soil and space. And propaganda does not abolish the responsibility of the authorities and intelligentsia to think and find the right solutions. Management propaganda errors cannot be corrected.
      1. Kushka
        Kushka 12 May 2020 23: 12 New
        0
        You are certainly right! I just wanted to emphasize in what conditions
        they did it. They did their job with a huge
        risk to life, in the face of counteraction of a powerful repres
        a sivny apparatus, having in front of itself a clogged mass of people and
        we know the result. It also discusses a sort of well done, whose
        powerful state support, money, movies and newspapers and
        some no result. Honestly, the guy worked, that's all.
        And when it worked, then it was dispersed - and again, everything is honest. Business.
        Where is ideology, strings?
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 12 May 2020 23: 18 New
        +1
        Quote: gsev
        Therefore, the Bolsheviks overthrew the king,

        Here is more about this, please!
        1. gsev
          gsev 13 May 2020 15: 33 New
          +1
          Quote: HanTengri
          Here is more about this, please!

          I admit a mistake - the Bolsheviks overthrew the Provisional Government, which refused to legalize the liquidation of landownership. Although the Bolshevik Dybenko seems to have made the transition of the army to the side of the rebels in February 1917.
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 12 May 2020 22: 49 New
    +2
    About the epigraph and Shpakovsky

    Shpakovsky, looking at his minuses, understands that he is already tired of his empty articles in the form of comments on the Pravda archives, and to give his informational garbage significance and to attract attention at all costs, he used an epigraph from an author who has a negative reputation ..

    The elderly stars of show business, about whom they stopped talking in the "elite salons", and representatives of the ancient profession, who have ceased to be popular, and who use any scandalous information to draw attention to themselves, act similarly. It is all from spiritual poverty.

    The epigraph usually expresses the main idea of ​​the author or his attitude to events, it should be a decoration of the article, and not its shame,

    So Shpakovsky missed the mark with the epigraph. Quoting Hitler, he showed who his idol was. In addition, I have shown my lack of professionalism. Hitler only admired the effectiveness of propaganda, but the principles of Nazi deceiving propaganda were formulated by Goebbels.

    Goebbels propaganda methods are built on lies and aimed at the manipulation of consciousness, they appeal to the baser feelings of the layman. Here are its basic principles:

    - we do not seek the truth, but the effect;
    - the more monstrous a lie, the more willingly they believe in it;
    - appeals should be primitive, without details, at the level of a monosyllabic slogan;
    - propaganda should be bright, catchy;
    - a lie repeatedly repeated becomes the "truth"

    How does this look like the author and some of our forum participants who, from commentary to commentary, launch the same slander ..
    1. kalibr
      13 May 2020 06: 59 New
      -2
      Вы все-таки какой-то глупый, Грин. Думайте, когда пишите головой. Писал ведь Вам и не раз, что и минусы и плюсы это все детские игрушки для... ну понятно кого. Значение имеют клики, в том числе и Ваш. А с этим как раз все нормально! Так что обличайте дальше! Тем более, что и к теме "Правды" мы еще вернемся...
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 13 May 2020 17: 17 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Clicks matter, including yours

        But what about conscience? Doesn't torment?
        1. kalibr
          13 May 2020 17: 39 New
          -3
          О чем Вы? Какая совесть? Совесть - это когда ты жене денег не приносишь, на которые она рассчитывает, когда не помог человеку, которому мог бы помочь. Не дал укорот хаму, хотя мог бы, придурку не сказал, что он , чтобы знал место. Вот это "совесть". А так по большому счету весь окружающий наш мир всего лишь комплекс наших ощущений и реально не существует. А раз так, то... все что хорошо моему сознанию, то только это и хорошо! Все остальное значения не имеет! Умру я, умрет и этот мир, а с ним и вся Вселенная. Так о чем беспокоиться?
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 14 May 2020 09: 27 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            What are you speaking about? What a conscience


            "...Хоть человеческая жизнь дороже всего на свете, но мы всегда поступаем так, словно в мире существует нечто ещё более ценное, чем человеческая жизнь…" (Antoine de Saint-Esupery)

            You do not understand this, you are a beggar. Beggar in spirit. As Vysotsky wrote: "... о таких не поют".
            1. kalibr
              14 May 2020 13: 52 New
              -1
              You know, let them not sing, but they love those who are close and dear to me. And the opinion of the drunkard Vysotsky is not credibility at all. You still refer to the songs of this in an eternal hat. Or do you hope that they will sing about you? They’ll bury them like a dog, there’s no difference. Well, someone close will cry. Bukhara with the inscription put on the grave? Well, then you still will not be where your corpse lies, under the bukhara with the inscription that in mugs under the fence!
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 14 May 2020 18: 00 New
                +1
                Well what can I say? ....
                Your behavior on the forum is only a confirmation of the justice of the well-known definition of V.I. Lenin on the intelligentsia.
                I don’t understand only: have you become this way or were you born? But most likely: the apple does not fall far from the apple tree.
                1. kalibr
                  14 May 2020 18: 27 New
                  0
                  So don’t say anything. The opinion of the Ukrainian loser here, apart from the defective, is of no interest to anyone ...
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 14 May 2020 20: 54 New
                    +1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    . The opinion of the Ukrainian loser here, apart from the defective, is of no interest to anyone ...

                    You have more than enough ambition ..... Well, who do you call defective?
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 15 May 2020 10: 56 New
          +2
          Quote: Alexander Green
          But what about conscience? Doesn't torment?

          Вы думаете что она у него есть? Не верю - этот человек познал "истину", что деньги не пахнут, а поэтому если ему заплатить, то вам он Маркса и Ленина будет восхвалять и доказывать что это теоретики самого передового учения в мире. Или же наоборот докажет что Горбачев действовал в интересах народов СССР - главное заплатить, и деньги вперед.
  • remserves
    remserves 13 May 2020 09: 47 New
    +1
    Thank you for the article, it will never be superfluous to remind you what exactly now flies into the head from various sources .--- I once read with pleasure--
    С. Кара-Мурза Манипуляция сознанием © Copyright С.Г.Кара-Мурза Date: 14 Aug 2003 OCR: Сергей Парунов
    --- How the USSR was broken.
    1. kalibr
      13 May 2020 17: 40 New
      0
      Quote: remserves
      Thank you for the article, it will never be superfluous to remind you what exactly now flies into the head from various sources .--- I once read with pleasure--
      С. Кара-Мурза Манипуляция сознанием © Copyright С.Г.Кара-Мурза Date: 14 Aug 2003 OCR: Сергей Парунов
      --- How the USSR was broken.

      Well then ... a handbook!