Military Review

We do not live in the USSR! Optimizer Acts

245
We do not live in the USSR! Optimizer Acts

First material: "Optimization? Destruction of medicine!"


After the beginning of the struggle of the Angarsk branch of the Irkutsk Regional Psychiatric Hospital with optimization and advanced requirements, after the appeal of the oldest member of the team to health officials in the Irkutsk region, activists were called to a “meeting”. The result is described below. This is a summary of the "conversation." If an MP3 recording file is needed for confirmation, it will be provided. Thanks to the administration of Military Review for reporting on the problem of Russian medicine!

On April 23, 2020, representatives of the collective of the Angara branch of IAPND, who made an open protest appeal against optimization in the institution, attended a meeting at the Ministry of Health of the Irkutsk Region, where they were invited to resolve the conflict.

At the very beginning of the meeting, the audience was made clear that they would not talk to them as with representatives of the trade union. Chief Physician of IOPND Alekhine I.N. He said that a response to the open appeal by management has already been prepared, but the workers will not be provided with this answer until they have submitted documents confirming the legal status of the Action union.

Thus, the leadership not only ignored the initial requirement to include representatives of an independent trade union in the working group to resolve the situation, but also refused to recognize the union as a subject of intermediate negotiations. “You represent an organization, not a team,” said Alekhine. “When we get all the necessary information from you, then we will interact.” Workers objected that they represented the team.

After this beginning, employees were asked to talk about their problems. However, formal formal courtesy soon followed, for which the employees of the Angarsk branch apparently called for an interview: the leadership began to prove the groundlessness of the doctors' demands.

In an initial tone, the question was asked about how things stand with the implementation of the annual work plan. Doctors were asked to provide an analysis of the performance of the institution. A response was given on the institution's overall performance of all targets.

Over and over again, management representatives tried to point out the fact that patients allegedly did not leave the institution for an excessively long time. Doctors and medical staff of the institution, according to management, for a long time "treat the same people, instead of transferring them to the outpatient department and organize home treatment." Health workers were advised that instead of dealing with severely ill patients in a hospital, they should transfer them to an outpatient regimen and then “walk and distribute pills.”

Representatives of the union objected, pointing to the forced long stay in the hospital for certain patients who, due to severe mental disorders, are dangerous for themselves and for others. Indications that such patients simply cannot be treated on an outpatient basis, that some patients have no home or relatives at all, clumsily retorted with indications of existing standards and norms. “Today, the trend is this: do not treat patients in a hospital. Patients should be treated at home, ”said Deputy Health Minister Golonetskaya E.S.

Alekhine, chief medical officer of the Institute for Nuclear Medicine, said that the outpatient treatment can be very effective, citing the experience of treating patients with bronchial asthma at home (!!!). A comparison of patients with bronchial asthma with those who, due to a mental disorder, are not aware of the nature of their actions and are not able to provide elementary help, speaks of an extremely strange understanding by the head physician of a specialized medical institution of the goals and objectives of the psychiatric service.

“Patients with acute psychoses cannot simply be let go on all four sides at the end of the treatment period established by the standard,” the doctors said. In response to this, there were accusations that the employees of the Angara branch of IAPND allegedly arranged a kind of shelter for the homeless within the walls of their institution. Thus, the management representatives deliberately tried to shift the focus from the real problem of the lack of beds for people in dire need of psychiatric help to the sort of improper organization of the institution, in which a mass of patients without a fixed place of residence now allegedly sat down. And although a high-ranking official is clear that there is no need to stand on ceremony with respect to the homeless, representatives of the medical team tried to challenge this view of the situation, they said that there was no dominance of homeless people in their institution.

The debate over the timing of treatment lasted a long time, and sometimes the disputing parties turned to elevated tones. The optimizers, either in order of threat, or in order to boast of their success in reducing hospital beds and medical facilities, said that they would withdraw all patients from the Angarsk hospital in the same way as they did with the Irkutsk Psychiatric Hospital, now closed (the famous Alexander Central) .

The deputy minister also urged those present to take an example from the social protection authorities, which have already reduced all their institutions. Now, in her words, the turn of psychiatric institutions has come.

“We do not live in the Soviet Union — whether we like it or not”,

- said the deputy minister.

We dare to assume that the attitude of the management representatives and ordinary workers can vary significantly: optimization officials in the Soviet Union would have a different fate and career than current health care managers.

Doctors were asked to carry out the plan: in this case, the institution is supposedly guaranteed to preserve beds. There was no answer to the objection that the medical workers had deliberately set plans that were not feasible under the current conditions.

Doctors also noted a lack of drugs, which makes it impossible to provide effective care to the patient. Management representatives left this comment unanswered.

As a result, representatives of the management stated that the medical workers could not justify their claims ...

On the issue of processing, the deputy minister, not embarrassed, stated that her working day also starts an hour earlier and ends a few hours later (so the workers were told in plain text that they were in the same conditions with a high-ranking official). Apparently, the nature of work, working conditions and the salary of the deputy minister and psychiatrist in our area do not differ.

The assembled workers have been repeatedly accused of incorrectly organizing their work, that their claims are not substantiated, that the reason for the poor management of the institution’s affairs lies in the lack of their own work.

Despite the many calls "to show respect for each other" voiced by representatives of the leadership, they themselves did not shy away from interfering with the doctors and communicate with them on the verge of rudeness.

When Aleksey Vereshchagin, the head of the trade union cell “Actions” in the institution, began to refute the optimizers' arguments, he was interrupted by the phrase: “Aleksey Sergeevich, you are still very young ...” When he asked how to cure a severe psychiatric patient in two months, he was answered: "Read the literature."

In general, the system of psychiatric services, according to officials, works great. In response to the astonishment of the doctors, the deputy minister of health of the region repeated that the psychiatric service was working fine, and it was unsatisfactory, it was said, only at your institution ... Not a single complaint about the availability of psychiatric care has been received, according to the official.

The problem of wages and lack of rates was explained by the outdated method of calculating rates, which, according to the head physician, has not changed since the 80s, and, therefore, is hopelessly outdated. Should we understand this in such a way that now, compared with the 80s, people are less likely to suffer from severe mental illness? Or maybe the level of drug addiction has dropped significantly over the past 35-40 years? Has the objective need for psychiatric help really decreased over the years? Apparently, management believes that it is.

The lack of personnel (according to the representatives of the leadership) should be decided by the heads of departments, who, despite combining two, and sometimes three rates, must travel to medical schools and select promising students there ...

The doctors were asked to calculate the optimal number of rates themselves, based on the current standards and indicators of the institution. At the same time, they were assured that the reduction of staff in the institution will happen anyway. In the same way, they were asked to calculate the number of beds. From all that has been said, it is impossible not to single out the following phrase released by the leading workers: "The more bets you have, the less money we will have for development."

Toward the end of the conversation, management representatives again went on the offensive and warned the assembled health workers that after quarantine was over, a check would come to their institution that would analyze the treatment of each patient.

Naturally, it could not do without calls to rally in the face of a common threat - the coronavirus epidemic. By the way, the Angara doctors during the conversation arranged a natural interrogation as to what preventive measures against the spread of coronavirus were taken at their institution. The authorities use every chance to indicate to the employee his place.

In the end, officials and senior officials suggested that the Angara physicians draw up their proposals in the form of a well-defined and calculated, justified and constructive development program, so that management could consider it and give an answer. Needless to say, this is only a ruse, calculated that the protest against having negative phenomena will turn into a petition for some positive changes? What is the fate of all such petitions, it is not difficult to guess: they will simply be sent under the cloth. Or, such a request with the program will simply be given a negative answer, relying on “current standards and norms” that allow burying any positive undertaking under the rubble of bureaucratic evasions.

Therefore, we believe that we need to rally around our requirements and around an independent trade union organization, the cell of which operates in our institution. We still have a lot of tests, we will probably be frightened, persuaded, confused, but if we succumb to and depart from the provisions of our open circulation, we will be defeated, which means that everything will go as optimizers want: the reduction of beds and staff will continue , the burden on the remaining doctors will increase, and their salary will fall, the quality of medical care will deteriorate, and its coverage will narrow.

We will not deviate from our demands, we will stockpile with determination and win - for the sake of the employees of our institution, for the sake of our patients and all citizens!
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  1. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 04: 56 New
    17
    representatives of the staff of the Angarsk branch of IAPND

    All. Kaput them. yes
    1. Far B
      Far B April 27 2020 05: 27 New
      26
      Both the representatives of the kaput and the hospital itself, apparently, are also kaput if they require (as stated in the article) reduction of beds and staff. Here are the social services - those well done, self-reduced themselves laughing The coronavirus optimizers did not teach anything. Apparently, for something to work in their heads, they need something stronger "Faust" by Goethe pandemics (far-fetched or real - another question, now is not about that).
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 05: 33 New
        39
        Quote: Dalny V
        And the representatives of the kaput, and the hospital itself, apparently, also kaput,

        Remember how the cardiologist at the Ivanovo hospital Putin complained about the window dressing? He was quickly fired and declared an agent provocateur.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 April 27 2020 06: 46 New
          30
          Indications that it is simply impossible to treat such patients on an outpatient basis, the fact that some patients do not have a home or relatives at all, awkwardly retorted by indications of existing standards and regulations.

          What is the main purpose, why does the hospital exist, for "standards and regulations" or for the people who need to be treated? Medical officials gave a clear answer to this. And they wanted to spit on sick people!

          Dispute around the question of the timing of treatment nlasted a long time

          When the main thing for the bosses is not living people, but ethereal "standards and norms" (even if they are destructive for patients), what will ultimately win is obvious.
          1. nikvic46
            nikvic46 April 27 2020 08: 49 New
            17
            Stas.You are absolutely right. And this attitude towards people is thanks to technocracy, which is touted in every way. And as a result, trees are cut down in cities, humane people are built. Even artificial intelligence can be taught bureaucratic little things.
            1. Tatyana
              Tatyana April 27 2020 15: 09 New
              +6
              “We do not live in the Soviet Union — we like it or not,” the deputy minister said.
              We have already heard this about the "utilization" of the population in the same Ukraine.

              Health care is an important social component of the state. However, with capitalism and monetarism of the economy (the pursuit of profits) on a large scale, this is in principle not possible !!!

              if we succumb and depart from the provisions of our open appeal, we will be defeated, which means that everything will go as OPTIMIZERS want: the reduction of beds and staff will continue, the burden on the remaining doctors will increase, and their salary will fall, the quality of medical care will be worsen, and its coverage - narrow.

              5 million inhabitants will be enough for Ukraine, the rest will be utilized by Igor Berkut. The performance of Igor Berkut is still under Yanukovych in 2013-2014.
              1. NordUral
                NordUral April 28 2020 21: 13 New
                +2
                So these tasks have to dispose of us. Which they do quite successfully.
            2. ANB
              ANB April 27 2020 19: 57 New
              +9
              And what does technocracy have to do with it? This is just an example of managerial democracy.
              When the leaders do not understand what they are "leading". And this is no longer only in the public sector.
          2. Starover_Z
            Starover_Z April 28 2020 08: 48 New
            +5
            Quote: Stas157
            Medical officials have given a clear answer to this. And they wanted to spit on sick people!

            And officials from medicine do not want to optimize LechSanUpry, where do they run about ?! Transfer them to the service of ordinary patients? Or are their plans there being fulfilled and overfulfilled by "Stakhanov's" methods and there is no need to touch it now ?! Let them go to the ordinary polyclinics at the place of residence, to the family-district doctor in turn! Let them feel their "optimization"!
          3. Severok
            Severok April 28 2020 14: 54 New
            +2
            Such officials should not be allowed to take a missile shot to the leadership of those industries that are directly involved in working with people. All these "chief doctors" and officials are ENEMIES.
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 April 27 2020 07: 10 New
          19
          In response to the surprise of the doctors, the Deputy Minister of Health of the region repeated that the psychiatric service was working. great

          Well, yesterday Peskov also soaked:

          New cabinet, which only works 100 days, in times of crisis and pandemic acts brilliantly and professionally. - Press Secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov


          When he askedhow to cure a severe psychiatric patient in two months, he was answered: "Read the literature."

          Why are you pestering your bosses with such nonsense? This is not even a discussion! Come on, read the literature.

          “We do not live in the Soviet Union — whether we like it or not”,
          - said the deputy minister.

          It has long been noticed that as soon as you point out to the confused people the inhumanity of the present reality, the answer follows in a similar vein. Say, normal - now this is not necessary.
          1. Lannan Shi
            Lannan Shi April 27 2020 08: 54 New
            23
            Quote: Stas157
            Say, normal - now this is not necessary.

            The problem of the Angarsk branch is that people who would lie on a bed in this branch are involved in financing it.
            1. avva2012
              April 27 2020 14: 48 New
              13
              Lannan Shi
              people who would lie on a bed in this branch are involved in financing it.

              What is your exact diagnosis !!!
              I looked at them. After all, I saw and knew some even before they got to the administrators. If he himself had not seen, he would not have believed how people are changing.
          2. Altona
            Altona April 27 2020 09: 39 New
            25
            Quote: Stas157
            It has long been noticed that as soon as you point out to the confused people the inhumanity of the present reality, the answer follows in a similar vein. Say, normal - now this is not necessary.

            --------------------------------
            The logic of the current system is simple: "the more budgetary institutions are destroyed, the more money will remain in the budget, which can then be used on your own wishes: PR, expensive cars, business trips abroad, that is, misuse." And people need to declare themselves more often, not to be silent with their heads down proudly. The more silence and agreement, the more money will be dragged away for unnecessary expenses and the prices will be raised as planned.
            1. avva2012
              April 27 2020 13: 51 New
              14
              "the more budgetary institutions are destroyed, the more money will remain in the budget, which can then be used on your Wishlist

              You look at the root, for this budget medicine and destroy. Some will be dismantled at paid clinics, some will settle in the center.
          3. NordUral
            NordUral April 28 2020 21: 15 New
            -2
            So even the "guarantor" once said that the sands bring a "blizzard".
        3. AUL
          AUL April 27 2020 08: 09 New
          25
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          He was quickly fired and declared an agent provocateur.

          I think this will not be forgiven for these doctors either. Will disperse Optimize the hospital gradually. And then you’re thinking of something - criticize the power!
          1. Malyuta
            Malyuta April 27 2020 09: 44 New
            21
            Quote: AUL
            I think this will not be forgiven for these doctors either. Accelerate. Optimize the hospital gradually. And then you’re thinking of something - criticize the power!

            Comrade, the government did not come to us with Nubiru and it is not the first day that it mocks the people, because one of the victims of Dachau said nadar: "Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Kommunist.
            When they locked up the Social Democrats, I was silent; I wasn't a social democrat.
            When they called the unionists, I was silent; I wasn't a trade unionist.
            Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte. ", Which in a free interpretation and translation sounds like this:" First they came for the socialists, and I was silent - because I was not a socialist.
            Then they came for union members, and I was silent - because I was not a union member.
            Then they came for the Jews, and I was silent - because I was not a Jew.
            Then they came for me - and there was no one left to intercede for me. "
            No matter how cynical it sounded, but in this case they came for doctors, that is, for medicine, and accordingly for our health and lives, only the skrepo-inhabitants do not see cause-effect relationships here and with a brisk step march directly to the slaughterhouse, but without wool and accumulated fat.
            1. avva2012
              April 27 2020 13: 54 New
              10
              No matter how cynical it sounded, but in this case they came for doctors, that is, for medicine, and accordingly for our health and lives, only the skrepo-inhabitants do not see cause-effect relationships here and with a brisk step march directly to the slaughterhouse, but without wool and accumulated fat.

              Tired of being silent.
              And what you write, how to hammer into people's heads?
            2. NordUral
              NordUral April 28 2020 21: 17 New
              +1
              Keeping quiet is good. But you have to do something. At least to choose decent people, they have not gone extinct in Russia yet.
              1. Malyuta
                Malyuta April 28 2020 22: 00 New
                12
                Quote: NordUral
                Keeping quiet is good. But you have to do something. At least to choose decent people, they have not gone extinct in Russia yet.

                The election in our case is an illusion. Comrade, do not flatter yourself, what the hell are the choices when physical survival is at stake. After all, any alternative person who has come to power will conduct an audit of the actions of those who left.
                Something you still do not understand ?! hi
                1. NordUral
                  NordUral April 28 2020 22: 02 New
                  0
                  It is necessary to use everything that will lead to a change in the system and power. Including elections. All!
                  1. Malyuta
                    Malyuta April 28 2020 23: 03 New
                    10
                    Quote: NordUral
                    All must be used

                    I agree, but only at the moment, because now everything has come together at one point of tension, and if earlier fraud would have caused a rumbling-mooing, now it is definitely a political crisis, superimposed on many factors unfavorable for the authorities.
                    In general, the gun near the head with cocked trigger, it remains only to start the descent.
                    1. NordUral
                      NordUral April 29 2020 10: 42 New
                      0
                      I hope that in this situation, and she is on the descent, we will not let go of the authorities criminal fraud.
                      I also think that frightened teachers, who mainly work at polling stations, will finally understand that you can’t help cheating. Fortunately, they openly declared the practical destruction of the school with the transfer of the bulk of students (our children and grandchildren) to distance education.
                      So it’s necessary to vote, and there it will be how it is destined. But don't sit there.
          2. avva2012
            April 27 2020 15: 02 New
            +5
            AUL (Alexander)
            Alexander, maybe they will not forgive. Now there is a coronavirus, but it will be seen there. But we have an active link, this is a former nachmed, now an expert on the quality of medical work, a department doctor, I am the department head, a clinic doctor, where there are no doctors anyway. So if they try to fire us, the hospital will completely rise.
            Malice, of course, is an irrational thing, they may not give a damn about problems and begin to take revenge, but wait and see.
            1. AUL
              AUL April 27 2020 16: 08 New
              +3
              Quote: avva2012
              Alexander, maybe they will not forgive. Now it’s a coronavirus, and there it will be seen ...

              Alexander, I think that a wait-and-see attitude will not help you. While the epidemic may not be touched. But then they will definitely remember! Since you started this fight - go to the end! Write to higher authorities, to the media (only not local ones, they will be shut up quickly). If the story gets a wide resonance in the country, it will be difficult to shut it up or break loose. And you have to solve this issue at high levels. The main thing is to show that you will not calm down on a one-time action and do not let yourself shut up just like that.
              At the same time, it would be good to have competent legal support.
              Good luck in your struggle!
              1. avva2012
                April 27 2020 17: 37 New
                +4
                AUL
                Alexander, I think that a wait-and-see attitude will not help you.

                We are not going to wait. People in our hospital are brought to the limit. And legal support, I think they will provide us)). Thanks for the wish !!!!
            2. frog
              frog April 27 2020 20: 31 New
              +2
              They will not forgive for sure. I talked with these effective ones. In the best case, they will wait until some reduction in the stresses associated with "19". But they may not wait ... Local customs, they are ...
              1. avva2012
                April 27 2020 20: 45 New
                0
                frog
                Small-town customs, they are so ......

                So far they promised to wait until the end of the epidemic)). Although it is true, who knows. There is still a problem, in Irkutsk there are solid acting, starting with the governor. The acting Minister of Health, the person is temporary, because there is an age limit for a civil servant. Although many regret it, they say the person is not bad.
                1. frog
                  frog April 27 2020 20: 57 New
                  +1
                  Sorry, of course, you may well be right, but ..... "He is a man, of course, a good one ..... Only a good man is not a profession" (c)
                  I just came across some .... mmm ..... the difference in the modes of Wivend with operands wink conditionally in the capitals and in Zamkadye ..... Well, not to mention the areas in these Zamkadye. Sometimes it happens there that you are quietly amazed, although it seems like I've seen a lot of things. But the reaction of this kodla to such stimuli is the same everywhere. The only question is ....... intensity ..... Alas ......
                  1. avva2012
                    April 27 2020 21: 04 New
                    +2
                    frog
                    But the reaction of this kodla to such stimuli is the same everywhere. The only question is ....... intensity .....

                    It happens in different ways. They told us that some of the expired drugs were thrown up, and then a check was done. There are provocations on live bait, suddenly the doctor will bite the bait. Anything can happen. The fact is that such actions can also break someone’s career, or they can clear the way for someone. You will not guess without knowing the layouts on the air.
                    1. frog
                      frog April 27 2020 21: 08 New
                      +1
                      In general, you are right. Nasalnik's reaction to this is well known. "How, does it still say something inconsistent with the press service ???" Reaction methods ....... are varied. Unless, suddenly, it turns out that someone uses this to promote whoever is needed. Only then the troublemaker is eaten anyway. Unless with a napkin, a knife and a fork ... And not just shoved into the mouth.
                      1. avva2012
                        April 27 2020 21: 19 New
                        +2
                        I hope that it is possible to choke on, especially the "outrages" a decent amount. In addition, there are examples when it passed without consequences. There is an independent trade union and also doctors in its leadership, a "league for the protection of doctors", there is an example of the "ambulance" in Penza, they generally take it by the throat. One thing is for sure, the limit on errors is exhausted)) I fight back))) All the best!
                      2. frog
                        frog April 27 2020 21: 21 New
                        +1
                        Good luck to you!! Good luck and perseverance !!!!
                  2. Severok
                    Severok April 28 2020 15: 02 New
                    +1
                    The fact is that similar actions can break someone’s career

                    Another worse, these (obscene) lives break people and do not see anything filthy in this. That's the bad thing. Until they themselves find themselves in a situation, nothing will reach them. They plopped into the system like a shepherd in a cow flat and would never admit that it stinks of themselves.
            3. Severok
              Severok April 28 2020 14: 59 New
              +1
              Communicated with these, effective

              A donkey always kicks harder. In our case, these are those who, sitting in high chairs for people, will not tear their loins from them.
          3. NordUral
            NordUral April 28 2020 21: 18 New
            0
            So if they try to fire us, the hospital will completely rise.
            Which was required by this.
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine April 27 2020 08: 41 New
        14
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Remember how the cardiologist at the Ivanovo hospital Putin complained about the window dressing? He was quickly fired and declared an agent provocateur.

        That's how people shut their mouths, although many nod to the fact that
        “We do not live in the Soviet Union — whether we like it or not”,
        . Now this is just a mockery.
      3. Malyuta
        Malyuta April 27 2020 09: 29 New
        18
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Remember how the cardiologist at the Ivanovo hospital Putin complained about the window dressing? He was quickly fired and declared an agent provocateur.

        Curious statistics on your comment. You wrote the truth about the doctor of the Ivanovo hospital, but 5 people gave you "-" and 12 "+" is 9:19 Moscow time.
        It remains a mystery to me what drives these people who set the minus. They still do not believe that medicine was destroyed under Putin? Or is the mere mention of the name of this citizen unacceptable to them in a bad, fragile context? what
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 April 27 2020 05: 38 New
      -8
      Well, strictly speaking, social services have not just declined, namely, optimized. what did you have before? you come and stand in line. after reduction you sign up and do not stand in line. as a result, we have, although less staff, but more efficient work. I drove my mom before and drive now. the time she spent on resolving issues was reduced several times. The same thing in the clinic. SMS is now coming to her when to come and why. no need to stand at the reception. all issues are solved either by calling or through the Internet. mother underwent medical examination which is now available to any person and it is very convenient. without queues and without fuss, she went to the doctors and passed the tests. then, according to their results, she was prescribed additional things; they themselves were recorded and notified by a call. plus SMS with a reminder. As for this case, I can’t say anything. you need to know the whole situation.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 05: 56 New
        17
        Quote: carstorm 11
        the time that she spent on resolving issues was reduced significantly.

        The attitude towards the sick became worse. The nurses couldn't even tell my bata what he could and shouldn't eat. They gave nothing. When my father was indignant, they blurted out: "Why, you have no wife? Let her bring you food." And when his stomach ached, they blurted out that it was from tomato juice. In general, I was fucked up by such statements. Tomatoes are recommended for bowel disease, and they got it.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 April 27 2020 06: 03 New
          -7
          I'm talking about clinics. I’ve never been to hospitals. in ordinary at least. all my hospital experience is military 301 OVKG and all that. there was no such thing and could not be. so it’s quite similar I can admit what you’re talking about .. but in a regular clinic everything is as described. conveniently quickly and without this game with the queues as before. it's hard not to notice.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 06: 13 New
            15
            Quote: carstorm 11
            I'm talking about clinics.

            Good. I can and about polyclinics. Not only do you have a doctor’s wife, my sister has been working there since the 87th year (in the outpatient clinic). The mess has become. Moreover, many work at one and a half to two rates. I asked her how many doctors are in the population? She replied that about one doctor per 3 thousand people.
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 April 27 2020 06: 33 New
              -6
              quite admit it in different places. but we have it as it is. I personally liked it. I say, I judge by what I personally felt. I wanted to carry my mother privately and came across a medical examination. and held it on her personally. free and very convenient. the district officer comes on the first call. she is 67 all the same. anything happens. she is also happy with everything. I am for nothing against this. just saying what I saw myself.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 06: 37 New
                11
                Quote: carstorm 11
                she is 67 all the same. anything happens.

                Mine is 72. That year they had eye surgery. Cataract. So here. After that operation, she began to see even worse.
                1. Mitroha
                  Mitroha April 27 2020 07: 28 New
                  +3
                  Quote: mordvin xnumx
                  And when his stomach got sick, they blurted out that it was from tomato juice. I'm generally fucked up with such statements. Tomatoes are recommended for bowel disease, and they have beaten it.

                  You do not have enough knowledge, and doctors and nurses are to blame.
                  Tomato juice is not recommended for people with stomach ulcers, increased acidity of gastric juice. Refrain should be those who are diagnosed with urolithiasis and gallstone disease. Pancreatic diseases are also a contraindication. And it is clearly prohibited in these diseases in the acute stage.
                  Your dad had stomach problems, which means there may have been some kind of exacerbation. What did the nurse say wrong to you?
                  Quote: mordvin xnumx

                  Condensed coffee was given almost every day. Now, in order to lose weight, you have to go to bed there. Starve to freeze. repeat

                  I have never seen how many I have been / visited in hospitals in my life before giving coffee in any form. For the vast majority of patients in almost all departments, it is contraindicated. The maximum that can give is cocoa.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 08: 00 New
                    +8
                    Quote: Mitroha
                    Tomato juice is not recommended for people with stomach ulcers.

                    And where did I write that he had a stomach ulcer? He had esophageal cancer.
                    Quote: Mitroha
                    I have never seen how many I have been / visited in hospitals in my life before giving coffee in any form.

                    89th year. The height of the deficit. Novomoskovsk, Tula region. Lying with bronchitis. I was skiing for about four hours, I came home, I ate a couple of ice cream, then I went to the cinema, I bought ice cream there. Picked up bronchitis. The hospital was given condensed coffee.
                    Quote: Mitroha
                    The maximum that can give is cocoa.

                    Am I a nonsense, do you think?
                    1. Mitroha
                      Mitroha April 27 2020 08: 19 New
                      +3
                      Quote: mordvin xnumx
                      And when his stomach got sick, blurted out what is it from tomato juice. I'm generally fucked up from such statements.

                      I answered this statement.
                      You accused the medical staff of incompetence.

                      Quote: mordvin xnumx
                      And where did I write that he had a stomach ulcer? He had esophageal cancer.

                      You didn't write anything about cancer either.
                      This does not negate the fact that tomato juice could provoke an exacerbation of pancreatitis or an increase in acidity and as a result of pain in the stomach.

                      Quote: mordvin xnumx
                      Quote: Mitroha
                      The maximum that can give is cocoa.

                      Am I a nonsense, do you think?

                      You shared your observations, I have yours.
                  2. tihonmarine
                    tihonmarine April 27 2020 08: 45 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Mitroha
                    For the vast majority of patients in almost all departments, it is contraindicated. The maximum that can give is cocoa.

                    And why then do heal, even if they just drink warm water.
                    1. Mitroha
                      Mitroha April 27 2020 15: 20 New
                      -1
                      Quote: tihonmarin

                      And why then do heal, even if they just drink warm water.

                      So far I have not seen you inadequate posts.
                      Do you have any certainty that patients can be treated by giving them coffee?
                      Tell me honestly, even if you have no contraindications for coffee, would you like to drink a drink that will be brought to you in a medical facility like coffee?
                      PS Warm water will be at least exactly water)
                    2. tihonmarine
                      tihonmarine April 27 2020 18: 02 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Mitroha
                      PS Warm water will be at least exactly water

                      I mean who will bring coffee to the hospital, maximum "railway tea".
                  3. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack April 27 2020 15: 30 New
                    -4
                    Quote: Mitroha
                    I have never seen anyone give coffee in any form. For the vast majority of patients in almost all departments, it is contraindicated

                    Quote: tihonmarine
                    Why then do heal at all, even if they just drink warm water

                    Um ... buddy, are you good at logic? My doubts.

                    And about warm water - I've already voiced what I have heard personally (from doctors) and repeatedly: "cold, hunger and peace." And you lie there for two or three days, sucking on your paw ... well, you can have a little water, moisten the sky cleanly.

                    Guess the sore? wink
                  4. AU Ivanov.
                    AU Ivanov. April 27 2020 23: 21 New
                    +2
                    Pancreatitis.
                  5. avva2012
                    3 May 2020 18: 49 New
                    +3
                    "cold, hunger and calm"

                    Pancreatitis )))
                  6. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack 3 May 2020 18: 54 New
                    -6
                    Quote: AS Ivanov.
                    pancreatitis

                    Quote: avva2012
                    pancreatitis

                    Doga-a-a-aaaah ... damn it. avva2012Are you a doctor if I’m not mistaken? So dishonest ... did you know laughing
                  7. avva2012
                    3 May 2020 18: 59 New
                    +3
                    Are you a doctor if I’m not mistaken?

                    yes, well, how else to shine on VO?
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 April 27 2020 07: 51 New
          -3
          Well, the medical aspects are not mine. I sympathize. We have an Eye Microsurgery Center in the city. he was not treated but his daughter drove all kinds of examinations. so I don’t know much about concrete.
      2. Malyuta
        Malyuta April 27 2020 12: 54 New
        +7
        Quote: carstorm 11
        I wanted to carry my mother privately and came across a medical examination. and held it on her personally. free and very convenient. the district officer comes on the first call. she is 67 all the same. anything happens.

        I just can’t understand, are you writing for money or by the will of your own soul? If for the money, then I understand, but if the second, then to the doctor.
        So you wanted to take your mother to paid doctors, and then, suddenly, they tripped over a medical examination .. Already ridiculous.
        Next, you will tell that the local doctor, who was reduced to impossible, sits and waits for your call in order to run headlong to your mother through the snowy plains. Here, too, you can applaud either the local police officer, or your imagination or intentional lies.
        Quote: carstorm 11
        I just say what I saw myself.

        I immediately remember a joke how Americans came up with farsighted glass eyes.
        And now in essence !!!
        1) In order to make an appointment with a doctor of narrow specialization, you need to make an appointment with a local doctor!
        2) Now it is possible to make an appointment with a district police officer only at a personal appearance, or one of the relatives through the terminal in the clinic (the registry does NOT do this anymore)
        3) Your entry (coupon) to the district police officer can be extended in time from 1 to 14 days, depending on the workload of the doctor.
        4) The district doctor records (only he can do it now) you to a specialist, the line to which you can stretch from 1 day to 2-3 months !!! Depending on the availability of specialists and thirsty and suffering patients.
        5) Recording on diagnostics such as ultrasound for at least 2 weeks, I won’t even talk about MRI and CT, it’s unrealistic.
        If you need it urgently, then a welk in a pay place is if you have money, but if you are aground, just sit, breathe evenly and dry out.
        All this happens in any regional city, in the regional centers, medicine is completely destroyed, in the best case they measure the pressure and spread something in the green, in heavy cases only the ambulance and in the region and everything will be fine if you survive ...
        1. Mitroha
          Mitroha April 27 2020 15: 33 New
          -6
          You either do not live in the Russian Federation, as I already told you, or you intentionally distort information.
          1. Lies. State service site, two minutes of time
          2. Yes, yes. Government services or a home call.
          3. Automatically after item 1 there. I saw a maximum of two weeks. The doctor had a vacation.
          4. Ultrasound, maybe yes. I had a week from recording to receiving.
          CT and MRI are generally not related to clinics in any way. In the sense that they have never been there. Maybe in the capitals only. If there is evidence, you will be sent to a hospital and there, depending on the need, they will be examined for compulsory medical insurance. Or if you need it urgently and at your request, then yes, it is paid in any clinic.
          District center, if that.
          1. Malyuta
            Malyuta April 27 2020 18: 07 New
            +3
            Quote: Mitroha
            You either do not live in the Russian Federation, as I already told you, or you intentionally distort information.

            Yes, indeed, I distort information because I don’t dump everything that I know about modern medicine and do not swear here, well, of course, you live alone in Russia, oh no, two, since only in this beautiful country is the site of public services does not hang, in every village and district center there is a wired 5Zh, the first letter of the famous word and excellent roads ....
            Quote: Mitroha
            District center, if that.
            Moscow region...
            1. Mitroha
              Mitroha April 27 2020 21: 39 New
              -1
              in every village and district center there is a wired 5Zh, the first letter of the famous word and excellent roads ....

              That is, you confirm that you do not live in Russia, because judging by your productivity on the site in writing posts with a fair amount of lies and speculation, everything is fine with the Internet.
              Moscow region...
              So the speculation arrived in time.
              Finger to the sky. hi
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 April 27 2020 23: 31 New
          0
          and why so many letters? Yes, I would like my mother to be examined by doctors. just to find out if there is something you need to know about. He began to study the issue in the paid segment and came across a medical examination. what is bad to use it? almost the same as I wanted only for free. What surprises you so much in the fact that I can count my funds? to sign up for a highly specialized doctor, you just need to go to the public services website. the district police officer is the same. (apparently for you this is news) and do not believe anything there was not stretched. the district police officer will write you down to all specialists. right on the spot what you will be notified there on the spot. Ultrasound and other yes. need to wait. but this is quite usual since there are a lot of people and you can’t put such an apparatus in each office. I do not want to convince you. you can check everything yourself since I do not hide the place where I went through all this and just google it. and do not rush in righteous anger do not understand with what accusations.
  2. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 06: 42 New
    +4
    Doctors do not always fit in time and there may be a queue.
    Quote: carstorm 11
    I'm talking about clinics. I’ve never been to hospitals. in ordinary at least. all my hospital experience is military 301 OVKG and all that. there was no such thing and could not be. so it’s quite similar I can admit what you’re talking about .. but in a regular clinic everything is as described. conveniently quickly and without this game with the queues as before. it's hard not to notice.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 06: 47 New
      14
      Quote: Reptiloid
      Doctors do not always fit in time and there may be a queue.

      They got them with paperwork thoroughly. They no longer treat, but write pieces of paper. And the lines - yes. We sit for a couple of hours at the reception.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 27 2020 07: 09 New
        +4
        And not all doctors are good with the computer. They call for the help of another doctor, all the clearance, that the hospital, that the prescriptions and more --- through the computer. As a result, the line is growing.
        Let the doctors do what kind of training centrally with a computer on documents
        Quote: mordvin xnumx
        .... They got them with papers thoroughly. They no longer treat, but write pieces of paper. And the lines - yes. We sit for a couple of hours at the reception.
        It’s good that you support them.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 07: 33 New
          12
          Quote: Reptiloid
          It’s good that you support them.

          Well, by the way, doctors are different. In the 94th year I caught three dross in the eye. Okay. The doctor took it out, I bought him a bottle of cognac. Darling, some had a salary at that time, like the cost of that bottle. So he refused. And a few years ago, my mother broke her arm, so the doctors directly hinted that we should thank them.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 April 27 2020 08: 02 New
            -18
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            so the doctors directly hinted that we should thank them.

            It was always accepted that it was earlier, now. This is a rule of good form, if hinted at, when it’s probably quite slow-witted.
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine April 27 2020 08: 49 New
              11
              Quote: bober1982
              It was always accepted that it was earlier, now. This is a rule of good form, if hinted at, when it’s probably quite slow-witted.

              An interesting judgment, if the plumber replaced the tap, then he must be thanked, the bus driver must also be thanked, and do not forget the janitor, too, put a "bottle" for him.
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 08: 56 New
              +4
              Quote: bober1982
              So it was always accepted that before, now.

              I am writing to you in Russian that the surgeon refused a bottle of horse meat.
            3. bober1982
              bober1982 April 27 2020 09: 26 New
              -15
              As you say, it was in 1994, what kind of cognac could have been then? Indeed, some kind of horse meat was burnt, so the doctor refused, because he understood the consequences of drinking such a "cognac".
            4. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 09: 41 New
              +7
              Quote: bober1982
              it was in 1994, what brandy could it be then?

              You have something not very good with memory. hi Starting from the end of the 93rd, they began to fill all of Russia with alcoholic drinks. And the church was actively involved in this process. Remember, Rasputin winked, the piano flowed like a river, the White Eagle danced a ballet, Smirnoff turned a cat into a panther. laughing Polish Napoleons, Greek Olympus ... But I don’t remember exactly which one I bought. I remember that my dear is very, then he was persuaded with the guys.
            5. bober1982
              bober1982 April 27 2020 10: 05 New
              -9
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Polish Napoleons

              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Greek Olympus.

              Quote: Mordvin 3
              then they persuaded him.

              It was possible to go blind from such a swill.
            6. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 10: 17 New
              +6
              Quote: bober1982
              It was possible to go blind from such a swill.

              Blinded by alcohol, which stinks with rubber heels. By the way, he worked at the enterprise of the blind, there alone he was blinded by this. But you didn’t drink alcohol from the MiGs and didn’t use it? wink
            7. bober1982
              bober1982 April 27 2020 10: 27 New
              -2
              What topic (unusual), such and comments (unusual)
              And, to you my respect, fire, water and copper pipes + singed vodka passed, like me.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 08: 19 New
    +6
    Hinted --- and okay, if only to help. If only a hint is feasible to you. When my grandmother (the kingdom of heaven to her) in the hospital, the temperature rose to 40, they didn’t mean to write out. Colds, they say. Mom called the city health. What do you think --- the doctor then cleaned the vessel and was treated for another week. And if they had been discharged then she would not have lived another 10 years later.
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: Reptiloid
    It’s good that you support them.

    Well, by the way, doctors are different. In the 94th year I caught three dross in the eye. Okay. The doctor took it out, I bought him a bottle of cognac. Darling, some had a salary at that time, like the cost of that bottle. So he refused. And a few years ago, my mother broke her arm, so the doctors directly hinted that we should thank them.
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 April 27 2020 07: 10 New
    +8
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    They got them with paperwork thoroughly.

    And now they should fill out both on the computer and on paper.
    1. Mitroha
      Mitroha April 27 2020 08: 23 New
      +9
      This is sometimes "annoying" most of all, you sit to her about your sores, tell her, and with one finger she tries to defeat the electronic assistant bureaucrat. Such a feeling, ask nothing about what he said, can not repeat. Deja vu about school, yomyo smile
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 April 27 2020 07: 52 New
    -8
    Well this is particular. this does not negate the fact that one could sit there several hours earlier knowing that the reception begins at 14, without specifics.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 06: 48 New
    +8
    I sympathize with your relatives, Vladimir, whom you wrote about before.
    We remembered the Doctor, thought why he had a break. In the comments. And he, it turns out, is trying to solve very important problems for his city. Respect to him!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 27 2020 07: 46 New
      +1
      Dmitry! hi
      The Doctor has a "comment break" for another reason. And not a break, but a protest action related to the incorrect behavior of one of the authors with the audience. Otherwise, you are right.
      I really lack communication with Alexander. request
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 27 2020 08: 28 New
        +3
        And who told you this, Anton? Or do you think so yourself?
        Is it somehow strange to do shares here, because we are basically anonymous? In my opinion, this is not his style. The work did not leave him time for anything.
        If Alexander destroyed his anonymity ---- a serious matter.
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Dmitry! hi
        The Doctor has a "comment break" for another reason. And not a break, but a protest action related to the incorrect behavior of one of the authors with the audience. Otherwise, you are right.
        I really lack communication with Alexander. request
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 27 2020 08: 39 New
          +1
          And who told you this, Anton? Or do you think so yourself?
          I am not ready to conduct a dialogue in such a tonality.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid April 27 2020 08: 46 New
            +2
            Yes, the question is normally asked, Anton! I have no key except surprise. Why do you need to accept your words as truth? How do you know the reasons for Alexander’s actions? I didn’t know about any action, although I often spoke in the comments with Alexander before. There are no answers, most likely
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 27 2020 09: 03 New
              +1
              As well as disadvantages, each has its own criteria of "normality".
              1. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid April 27 2020 09: 18 New
                +2
                The direct question is the direct answer, Antont. How did you know that this is a stock? Facts. Or is it your interpretation. What is the name of the article where you can look.
              2. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 11: 37 New
                +3
                The name of the article, where you can see.

                Colleagues, forget it. If it is necessary, it will come. He really is not enough on the forum.
                I wanted to speak for the media. Here, then, I am going to work on Friday morning, put on "Vesti FM". The presenter with the invited political scientist Ishchenko are discussing the appeal of the Kiev hospital staff. Idem. There are no beds, the salary is low, etc. And, of course, after reading all this, they shift the conversation to the "Maidan revolution", and as a result of this, everything is bad for them, because the Maidan ruined everything. If you want - find the entry, it seems, after 10 am they discussed.
                Colleagues, I wanted to be exhausted. Because our doctors write the same thing. But you, ladies and gentlemen, are discussing not their problem, and discuss maidan, etc. - the topic is too attractive. negative
                This, as they say - "I will see a speck in someone else's eye." I would like to recall Joseph Vissarionovich and his proposal to build socialism in a single country. Maybe it’s worth first putting things in order in our hospitals (and not "optimization"!), And then discussing only the neighbors?
                But, from the point of view of our media, this is not interesting! request
              3. Leshy1975
                Leshy1975 April 27 2020 12: 26 New
                +3
                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                The name of the article, where you can see.

                Colleagues, forget it. If it is necessary, it will come. He really is not enough on the forum.
                I wanted to speak for the media. Here, then, I am going to work on Friday morning, put on "Vesti FM". The presenter with the invited political scientist Ishchenko are discussing the appeal of the Kiev hospital staff. Idem. There are no beds, the salary is low, etc. And, of course, after reading all this, they shift the conversation to the "Maidan revolution", and as a result of this, everything is bad for them, because the Maidan ruined everything. If you want - find the entry, it seems, after 10 am they discussed.
                Colleagues, I wanted to be exhausted. Because our doctors write the same thing. But you, ladies and gentlemen, are discussing not their problem, and discuss maidan, etc. - the topic is too attractive. negative
                This, as they say - "I will see a speck in someone else's eye." I would like to recall Joseph Vissarionovich and his proposal to build socialism in a single country. Maybe it’s worth first putting things in order in our hospitals (and not "optimization"!), And then discussing only the neighbors?
                But, from the point of view of our media, this is not interesting! request

                Oh, just not Ishchenko. I also listened to him at first, when he only moved to Russia after the Maidan. I was on all TV shows. Well, I listened to him for a year and a half, his "most accurate" forecasts fantasies about how Ukraine is about to freeze, fall apart, go bankrupt and all the other "Egyptian executions" will certainly befall it.
                In general, the starball, Ishchenko, rare. But the population hangs the noodles exactly in accordance with the state-approved recipe - but look, in Ukraine it is even worse. That would terribly catch up on the population of the Russian Federation and distract from their own internal problems. So they drag him through the media.

                PS That would be someone who asked him on the air, but where is at least one of your forecasts come true in Ukraine?
              4. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 12: 30 New
                +4
                But the population hangs the noodles exactly in accordance with the state-approved recipe - but look, in Ukraine it is even worse.

                just skillfully following the trend. Like, sorry, a fallen woman. what they pay for - I’ll speak and will.
                I haven’t been listening to Solovyov for a long time. I just can not. I caught myself thinking that if I listen to five minutes - then I leave morally for half a day. Anger pours out of the speaker. But this is my personal opinion.
              5. Leshy1975
                Leshy1975 April 27 2020 12: 32 New
                +2
                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                But the population hangs the noodles exactly in accordance with the state-approved recipe - but look, in Ukraine it is even worse.

                just skillfully following the trend. Like, sorry, a fallen woman. what they pay for - I’ll speak and will.
                I haven’t been listening to Solovyov for a long time. I just can not. I caught myself thinking that if I listen to five minutes - then I leave morally for half a day. Anger pours out of the speaker. But this is my personal opinion.

                I agree with you completely. hi
              6. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 12: 48 New
                +4
                I agree with you completely.

                it is unfortunate that this is happening on the central media.
            2. frog
              frog April 27 2020 20: 39 New
              +1
              If only anger. In the end - just an emotion. But he also leads ............ professionally. And this is no longer an emotion, but a gobbled calculation
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 28 2020 09: 26 New
              0
              But he also leads ............ professionally. And this is no longer an emotion, but a gobbled calculation

              I have a very negative opinion about this character. But we understand this! drinks And the crowd of people will watch it ... request
  • Digital error
    Digital error April 27 2020 06: 50 New
    +4
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    from tomato juice

    which the wife brought ... God forbid to get to the hospital in the outback
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 06: 56 New
      0
      Quote: DigitalError
      God forbid to get to the hospital in the outback

      I was in the same hospital in the 89th year. Feeding was better than now. Condensed coffee was given almost every day. Now, in order to lose weight, you have to go to bed there. Starve to freeze. repeat
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 April 27 2020 07: 12 New
        +3
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Feeding was better

        In particular, in Tolyatti, I can say that feeding has become somewhat better, but the professionalism of doctors and attitude are worse.
      2. your1970
        your1970 April 27 2020 19: 57 New
        +1
        Quote: Mordvin 3

        I was in the same hospital in the 89th year. Feeding was better than now. Condensed coffee was given almost every day.

        Your hospital was rich !!!
        At the end of 1989, I sent aunt's soap to Moscow to my aunt and sent caramels in parcels, since in Kushka this good was in bulk ... and in Moscow it was already tense ...
        But even our condensed milk was already in short supply
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 20: 40 New
          -1
          Quote: your1970
          Your hospital was rich !!!

          The most ordinary. And I was lying in a double room with one grandfather. I remember he treated me to Fanta: "Drink, otherwise it will turn sour!" laughing And about Moscow, yes, just in the 89th I went there in the summer, there, as the Mamai went through the shelves. And people are really embittered. All fell to the Communist Party.
          1. your1970
            your1970 April 27 2020 22: 04 New
            0
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            The most ordinary

            We have already discussed the specificity of your city. "Fanta" was in Moscow, St. Petersburg and you ..
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            All dumped on the Communist Party
            - sorry, and on whom ???!
            The directors of shops, trades, factories, regional consumer unions and vegetable depots - all without exception were 100% members of the CPSU. Who else to blame, except for the CPSU, the fact that there were Buran snowmobiles in Kushka (not even FOR Karakum !!!!) - a couple of thousand kilometers north of the people choked after them .....
            Did the Mossad and the CIA buy our district traders?
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 22: 43 New
              -1
              Quote: your1970
              Directors of shops, trades, factories, district consumer unions and vegetable stores — all 100% were all members of the Communist Party.

              Apart from the sign that they were from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, many of them had nothing for their souls. I have seen such "communists" and real Communists with a capital letter. To which of them do you include the current elite of power, there are solid "communists" sitting there.
              Quote: your1970
              Did the Mossad and the CIA buy our district traders?

              Hopeless stupidity bought them. And greed. Plus irresponsibility
              Quote: your1970
              "Fanta" was in Moscow, St. Petersburg and you ..

              Not here, but in the mining town 15 kilometers from the city. Forgot mine number. The coal basin near Moscow. I was surprised myself.
              1. your1970
                your1970 April 27 2020 23: 08 New
                +1
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                Besides the sign that they were from the CPSU, many of them had nothing for their souls.

                Nevertheless, it was they who were in power, they ruled the country, they commanded the army / MVD / KGB. ....
                so it is the CPSU that is to blame for all the acts of all its members ...
                And Gorbachev, unanimously elected secretary general, is also to blame for the Communists ..
                And by and large it’s absolutely unimportant even that they were honest, smart and decent.
                It’s enough that they ALL were guilty of the collapse of the USSR. Someone approved, someone was silent, someone for the sake of a career, someone was not fun .... the result - the USSR does not exist and never will be, alas ....
              2. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 23: 26 New
                -1
                Quote: your1970
                And Gorbachev, who was unanimously elected Secretary General, is also to blame for the Communists

                They had their own covert games. For example, quite decent Romanov applied for the post of general secretary. And why do not you admit that the CIA could not buy the party elite? For example, the perestroika ideologist, Yakovlev, studied at Columbia University in the same group as the future KGB general Kalugin, who was sentenced in absentia to zero for treason. Well, in the 80s and in a terrible dream, the people could not assume that terry capitalism would begin in our country. At least, remembering the 80s, I did not know such. Yes, even the United States did not expect that the USSR would collapse 5 years after the start of the disaster. They were at a loss when Yeltsin called them.
              3. your1970
                your1970 April 28 2020 01: 18 New
                +1
                Uh-huh ... Gorbachev and Yeltsin - no one else is to blame ... this is a normal position .... only now it is very insulting for the population of the USSR - they say "The CIA bought shepherds, and the population - 300 million completely brainless rams went under the knife"
                And this formula is sooooo convenient for the communists "it was not we who betrayed the Idea, these are those two over there, and we are not at all involved"
  • Hagen
    Hagen April 27 2020 07: 07 New
    10
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    The nurses couldn’t even tell my baht what he could eat and what not. They didn’t give anything.

    In fact, prescribing a diet is a function of the doctor, not the nurse. But if they don’t feed, then try to file a complaint with the local branch of the MHIF. Food is included in the cost of treatment (in the hospital) and is transferred to the hospital for each presented case. Questions about the presence of wives and other household members are incorrect and deserves, at a minimum, letters to the department of health of the subject. Refer to the fact that
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    Tomatoes are recommended for bowel disease, and they have beaten it.
    I think it’s not quite right, because diseases are different, and diets, respectively, too. It is better (more correct) to use the recommendations of a doctor.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 07: 22 New
      -2
      Quote: Hagen
      In fact, prescribing a diet is a function of the doctor, not the nurse.

      Are they really downs? I, a complete layman in medicine, and I know better than them what is possible and what is not. And then such nurses work for us, at least stand, even fall. One has worked out to the point that she completely banged a stranger with an ax. Caught up on the street, and hacked it. Four years of mental hospital gave. Nurse. repeat I have a friend of her neighbor, so I'm afraid to go to him. Who knows what this crazy thing wanders around. laughing
      1. Hagen
        Hagen April 27 2020 11: 18 New
        +4
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        And then such nurses work for us, at least stand, even fall. One has worked out to the point that she completely banged a stranger with an ax.

        The particular case cannot be extended to the entire category of health workers. All who "bale" someone have a profession. Who is a plumber, who is a locksmith, who is a driver .... But this does not mean that all the drivers-locksmiths are plumbers. Silly, isn't it? Unfortunately, the human factor cannot be excluded from any profession. And all juices, or almost all, today may have ingredients undesirable for the patient. I can also eat oranges, but orange juice is prohibited.
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        and then I know better than them
        let me disagree. This is a very self-confident statement. In principle, with any disease, you can eat allbut some of this once. laughing
  • Golovan Jack
    Golovan Jack April 27 2020 07: 53 New
    -2
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    The nurses couldn’t even tell my baht what he could eat and what not. Gave nothing

    In my experience of lying in the gastrointestinal tract (and this experience I have more than I would like), "what is possible, what is not" (and in general - is it possible to do anything) is determined not by the nurses, but by the attending physician. What is being recorded in the medical history, by the way. I, too, as a rule, were not fed in the first place - "cold, hunger and peace", damn it.

    So the nurses are probably out of business here.

    Quote: Mordvin 3
    Tomatoes recommended for bowel disease

    Tomatoes - maybe. And here is the tomato juice ... Vladimir, have you seen how and from which it is consumed? I saw that my project was at the Nidan-Soki factory. So - the factory workers do not drink their products. Categorically. They are all stupid there, probably yes
    1. Altona
      Altona April 27 2020 09: 58 New
      0
      Quote: Golovan Jack
      And here is the tomato juice ... Vladimir, have you seen how and from which it is consumed?

      ---------------------------
      By the way, yes. Apple juice is included in the ingredients of many nectars and ketchups as a cheap diluent, and its acidity is also quite horseish, and vinegar is made from it. Therefore, it is better not to get carried away with juices. Citrus juices, for example, can provoke an allergy. I'm already talking about other diseases.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 11: 33 New
      +1
      Quote: Golovan Jack
      Vladimir, have you seen how and from which it is used?

      I haven't seen it, to be honest. I saw Yablochny, they went to the state farm in a techie to buy apples, but I didn't see a tomato one. But they write on the boxes about the recommendation: "for children from three years old." It turns out that we are being deceived. All for the sake of the Chinese concentrate, because with such recommendations, taxes are paid less. Batya had cancer of the esophagus, he poured it straight into the navel from the tube. And they brought him such food that did not fit into the tube. That is, he stupidly could not pour food into his stomach. When Dad was indignant, the nurse yelled at him: "Why, you don't have a wife? Let her bring you some food!"
      1. your1970
        your1970 April 27 2020 20: 01 New
        +2
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        All for the sake of the Chinese concentrate, because, as with such recommendations, taxes are paid less.

        No, not from Chinese, from Iranian tomato paste, the cheapest but surprisingly the highest quality.
        Chinese is much more expensive ...
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 20: 25 New
          -2
          Quote: your1970
          Chinese is much more expensive ...

          I read in the AIF what exactly is exported from China. And the inscription "recommended by the Ministry of Health" was pushed through by the manufacturers, because there tax benefits come with such an inscription. There are three types of concentrate, and our builders buy the cheapest one. They themselves admitted this, saying that without the recommendation of the Ministry of Health, the juice would have cost more. They took care of us, benefactors. Yes, even Iranian. I don’t think they’re trying very hard to pick fruits from the bushes, as we did as students. The slightest dent on an apple is a marriage. The agronomist explained this to us with examples. In this state farm, they made wine and jam and juice ...
    3. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 20: 46 New
      -2
      Quote: Golovan Jack
      and the attending physician.

      Then the doctor, who did chemotherapy for him, said that it was not from juice, but such a sore. Three days were irradiated, on the fourth day he became ill, the body could not stand it. Well, at least thank you for not calling at night about the death, the manager called in the morning. Mother hadn’t slept all night.
  • knn54
    knn54 April 27 2020 08: 19 New
    +4
    Ukraine.
    As for the "psychiatric hospitals". It was before the Maidan (after the transatlantic "reformer" Suprun, I do not think that the situation has improved). Almost all patients were "mowed" from the court or the army. The patients were treated symbolically and were not detained.
    By the way, the ex-minister has already come up with the idea of ​​testing new vaccinations and drugs in Ukrainians.
    Now we are witnessing reforms in Russia. The truth is without foreign reformers-optimizers.
    No USSR, no socialism. Social protection of people will be minimized
  • avva2012
    April 27 2020 15: 13 New
    +1
    Mordvin 3
    The attitude towards patients has become worse.

    There are several reasons. The load increased at times and not only physically, but also morally. Crush from all sides. Apparently, in order to justify the optimization, it was necessary to show the inefficiency of the old system. To do this, they started shouting at all angles that complain about the doctors, even from the ministry. Believe me, there is 50 rubbish per justified complaint. You must answer with flight debriefings for each. The team is in a fever, nerves tremble.
    They filled up with paper work, and this despite the fact that in Soviet times there was not enough paper. Now, it just does not describe! And finally, artificial selection. From medicine, in general, they leave, and also go to paid, they leave representatives of pharmaceutical companies. There are youths after college, retirees, often with the age of 80+ and driven horses.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 15: 41 New
      0
      Quote: avva2012
      There are youths after college, retirees, often with the age of 80+ and driven horses.

      And they will leave while the doctors have such salaries. Moreover, in the regions they pay doctors three times less than in Moscow. I live two hundred km. from the capital, and the salary is many times different. I’m wondering why my aunt in Moscow gets three times more than my sister with absolutely the same job. That one, that the other nurses work.
      1. avva2012
        April 27 2020 15: 55 New
        0
        This is because people don’t give a damn from the high bell tower. And if they have few psycho-patients, then they will still be released and will not be caught ....
      2. frog
        frog April 27 2020 20: 48 New
        0
        And they will leave while the doctors have such salaries.

        We in the valiant VKS lack now, probably already, more than 2 thousand pilots. A couple of years ago, according to Kuzhugetiche in the state ..... me, 1300 were missing, approximately. After that, everything is clear with the position of the doctors. And not only doctors, unfortunately.
  • your1970
    your1970 April 27 2020 19: 47 New
    +3
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    The attitude towards patients has become worse.

    Oh nafig .. type in the USSR it was amazing !!!!!
    In a quiet 1980, his father was in the hospital, the whole ward was lying ... so the nurse took a ruble from the nose to take out the duck and that was the norm for that time ..
    Judging by the fact that the head doctor repeatedly complained, and the grandmother continued to cut rubles, he was with her in proportion ...
    About porridge in sunflower oil, even remember uninteresting ...
    Bronchitis began to be treated, it was treated to complications in the heart and liver, and up to 2 disability groups ...
    1980, USSR, regional hospital ...
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 21: 09 New
      -2
      Quote: your1970
      In a quiet 1980, his father was in the hospital, the whole ward was lying ... so the nurse took a ruble from the nose to take out the duck and that was the norm for that time ..

      In a quiet 82nd, my temperature jumped to 40. An ambulance rushed after 10-15 minutes. They injected an injection and after half an hour the temperature dropped to 34. Now I live twice as close to the station, an ambulance rides for about 20 minutes.
      In 1987 he lay in Tula. With the flu, I spent 2 weeks in a children's hospital. I can’t say anything bad about her. Only positive impressions. On New Year's Eve, they were discharged home. And in the 89th he was already in an adult. And again, no negative impressions. All. And I wasn’t sick anymore. But when I visited others, I saw how the quality was blown away. In Tula, when an apple was whistled from a common refrigerator, it was an emergency. and in the 89th, in the adult, I don’t remember what would be stolen from me, but my parents constantly dragged the gears. Now almost every day they steal from common refrigerators, no one itches.
      1. your1970
        your1970 April 27 2020 22: 14 New
        +1
        "An ambulance rushed along" - in the USSR ... well, nafig ... a man (a very distant relative) died through the house in 1988 on the day of my call - he was called in the morning, but he was already feeling bad, they called an ambulance ...
        9 hours 3 kilometers traveled ... but the truth must be paid tribute - there was a scandal, they scolded the head doctor ...
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 22: 34 New
          0
          Quote: your1970
          "An ambulance rushed along" - in the USSR ... well, nafig ... a man (a very distant relative) died through the house in 1988 on the day of my call - he was called in the morning, but he was already feeling bad, they called an ambulance ...
          9 hours 3 kilometers traveled ... but the truth must be paid tribute - there was a scandal, they scolded the head doctor ...

          Yours, where do you live in general? What kind of people are you irresponsible? Moscow, or what? What is the point of lying to me? In the 82nd he lived about a couple km. from the station, now - less than one km. About four years ago, an addict on a bench was bending under my window, they called an ambulance, so she drove these meters for 20 minutes. Despite the fact that we do not have traffic jams in this particular area. Yes, I walk to this station in five minutes.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 06: 39 New
    +3
    That you, dear carstorm 11 they wrote, we definitely have in St. Petersburg, in other big cities. And what about the small, and even so far from the capitals ----- we do not see. There is no reason not to believe the author of the article
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 April 27 2020 07: 08 New
    -2
    Quote: carstorm 11
    all issues are solved either by calling or through the Internet.

    This is called scientific and technological progress, which for some reason is taken into account as a plus of the current government.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack April 27 2020 07: 57 New
      -5
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      This is called scientific and technological progress.

      No, my friend ... this very "progress" is only give a chance "resolve issues" in this way. But the introduction of this all in the workflow - it requires very specific costs. Money, time and human labor.

      Technically, the ability to "make a call" was also in the USSR, in some thread there in 1960. And further. And where was it, can you tell me? wink
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 April 27 2020 08: 01 New
        +1
        Quote: Golovan Jack
        it requires absolutely kinky costs. Money, time and human labor.

        As the experience of other countries shows, "it" is being implemented much more successfully. And something tells me that under the Union these innovations would have been implemented more successfully. And in the 60s it was in the same place as in the rest of the world.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 27 2020 08: 03 New
          -9
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          something tells me that under the Union these innovations would be implemented more successfully

          Once again, the question is:

          Quote: Golovan Jack
          Technically, the ability to "make a call" was also in the USSR, in some thread there in 1960. And further. And where was it, do not tell?

          Don’t you turn around like that, try to answer already wink
        2. Revival
          Revival April 27 2020 16: 35 New
          -2
          Why are you wasting time on the troll, I predict that the conversation will end with nothing, press the fact, go into verbiage, etc.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 27 2020 16: 39 New
            -5
            Quote: Revival
            the conversation will end nothing

            You should write correctly to learn to start, or something ...

            Quote: Revival
            press fact

            So far, "Ingvar" has been "pressed" - the implementation of technological progress achievements in work processes "by itself" does not grow ... if you want - you can try to refute ... well, if there is enough tyama, certainly wink
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 April 27 2020 08: 00 New
      -2
      and their introduction, it’s supposedly grown by yourselves?) I repeat, I’m very protective of my parents and I always drive doctors. Sorry for the expression, but mom generally kicks because she does not like it all) dad when the ambulance was dying at the very first request took him to the hospital. arrived very quickly. all his illness was near and he saw everything himself. and I have no complaints about my case in life at all with doctors and staff, and with the system in general. . everything was up to standard. but unfortunately not everyone can be helped ... which of course does not deny the fact that in other places everything can be completely different. the country is big and all people are different. as well as the approach to medicine in different places. the human factor, he always was and will remain.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 15: 51 New
        0
        Quote: carstorm 11
        . arrived very quickly.

        How fast is that? I live twice as close to an ambulance station than I lived in the 80s, and an ambulance travels one and a half times more. I specifically compare the 82nd and 2016. Yes, and doctors running around the porches, looking for movers. Drove sits and does not itch, and doctors are looking for who would load the patient in an ambulance. request
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 April 28 2020 00: 22 New
          +2
          fast is fast. I do not remember exactly. . managed to get dressed and go down the street. and stood for a bit. I did not have time to time. Well, about 15 minutes. Maybe a little more. at ns with ambulances I didn’t hear that there would be problems. For many years now, every year buying new ones, they are driven out to Lenin Square so that everyone would see them. It has become a tradition that looks something like this.

          the same Ford came only cardiology. there are also many UAZs and Gazelles ambulances also new every year. there are a lot of photos on the internet. and so, year after year, it probably began in the nineties.
  • Stas157
    Stas157 April 27 2020 07: 53 New
    -2
    Quote: carstorm 11
    I drove my mom before and drive now. the time she spent on resolving issues was reduced several times. The same thing in the clinic. SMS is now coming to her when to come and why. no need to stand at the reception. all issues are solved either by calling or through the Internet. mother was examined which is now available to any person and it is very convenient. without queues and without fuss, she went to the doctors and passed the tests. then, according to their results, she was prescribed additional things; they themselves were recorded and notified by a call. plus SMS with a reminder

    What country are you writing about? You should write fairy tales about how good everything is with us. I underwent medical examination in November, so I spent two days. And in our budget clinics it is so "good" that more and more people prefer paid ones. And this not at all fromthat people have extra money.

    My wife is a doctor in a budget clinic, she always prefers to walk better in a paid clinicthan to use what the state provides for free. Because the quality of medical services provided by the native state is absolutely unsatisfactory.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 April 27 2020 08: 26 New
      -2
      I'm talking specifically about the city of Khabarovsk. I can call the clinic if you want. two days is quite normal. I didn’t say what happened in a day. all the same, there is the working time of various specialists. and it is different. as for the paid, you have not carefully read it; I wanted to take it to the paid, but I came across this. and do not regret it. this despite the fact that I can afford to pay generally calmly. By the way, in all paid clinics doctors from the budget work. generally in all) I have come across this dozens of times that a paid doctor prescribed me an appointment at the main workplace in the budget. doesn't that seem strange to you?)
  • Stas157
    Stas157 April 27 2020 08: 15 New
    -1
    Quote: carstorm 11
    Well, strictly speaking, social services have not just declined, namely, optimized. what did you have before?

    The goal of optimizing medicine was to reduce costs, and not to improve treatment for the population. As a result, hospital facilities, beds, the quantity and quality of the medical services themselves were reduced. But Dmitry, who always sees our lives in a rainbow, is telling us how everything has changed for the better in a wonderful way!
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 April 27 2020 08: 29 New
      -5
      I do not see her in a rainbow light. you confuse me with someone apparently. I just know how to live at this time and study if I see difficulties. for me, difficulties are always a challenge and an opportunity to make myself better. that's all. and I repeat, I described what I saw and went personally. and shared his perception. you have it different and this is your business. but in my life it was like that. if everything in your life is bad, this does not mean that it should be so for everyone to understand this.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 April 27 2020 08: 45 New
        +1
        Quote: carstorm 11
        I do not see her in a rainbow light. you confuse me with someone

        Yah!

        Quote: carstorm 11
        in all paid clinics doctors from the budget work. generally in all) I have come across this dozens of times that a paid doctor prescribed me an appointment at the main workplace in the budget. it doesn't seem strange to you ?)

        It does not seem. I am sure that public sector doctors are pushing for part-time jobs only insufficient pay in their main place. But, you are right, the way it is - most of the doctors in paid clinics come there (forcedly) from the budget sphere.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 April 27 2020 09: 08 New
          +2
          I'm generally talking about something else) if everything is bad in the budget and the doctors that are paid and the budget are the same) why does your wife want to be paid if the same doctors are in the budget?) are they treated differently there?)
          and not yes, but it is. I am always out of politics and always speak only my opinion. without making you believe in something else. my life is my life. and I quite like her. I have wonderful children and a wonderful wife. excellent work and arranged life that I created myself. What should I complain about? so sorry but leave your sarcasm to yourself.
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 April 27 2020 15: 08 New
            -6
            Quote: carstorm 11
            I'm generally talking about something else) if everything is bad in the budget and the doctors that are paid and the budget are the same) why does your wife want paid if in the budget the same doctors?) are they treated differently there?)

            Are you pretending to be something ?? You have already been answered about this:

            Quote: Malyuta

            1) In order to make an appointment with a doctor of narrow specialization, you need to make an appointment with a local doctor!
            2) Now it is possible to make an appointment with a district police officer only at a personal appearance, or one of the relatives through the terminal in the clinic (the registry does NOT do this anymore)
            3) Your entry (coupon) to the district police officer can be extended in time from 1 to 14 days, depending on the workload of the doctor.
            4) The district doctor records (only he can do it now) you to a specialist, the line to which you can stretch from 1 day to 2-3 months !!! Depending on the availability of specialists and thirsty and suffering patients.
            5) Recording on diagnostics such as ultrasound for at least 2 weeks, I won’t even talk about MRI and CT, it’s unrealistic.
            If you need it urgently, then a welk in a pay place is if you have money, but if aground, just sit, breathe evenly and dry out.


            My wife (a budget doctor) says that the state is doing everything to oust the population from budgetary clinics to paid ones. The opinion of a professional.
            1. Golovan Jack
              Golovan Jack April 27 2020 15: 21 New
              -4
              Quote: Stas157
              Professional Opinion

              Dear friend, and you, too, probably count yourself among the "professionals"?
            2. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 April 27 2020 23: 37 New
              0
              they didn’t answer me. a person apparently does not know such things as the Internet and so on or religion does not allow you to sign up to doctors through the Internet) as for the opinion of a professional, my wife is also a doctor and does not have such an opinion. as for mocking, the question was quite specific — why go to the paid doctors who work in the budget ones? are they treated differently there?) because as you and I agreed, the same people work there and there)
            3. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 April 27 2020 23: 55 New
              +2
              https://uslugi27.ru/nd/main.htm
              study. everything is concrete and clear. how to sign up and where.
  • avva2012
    April 27 2020 18: 33 New
    +1
    carstorm 11
    as a result, we have, although less staff, but more efficient work.

    Look, listen, we are not propagandizing anything. What you write, officials tell us: "you are not effective!" I have been working since 1995 by profession, I have the highest qualification category, awarded with the Appreciation Min. Hello RF, has always been effective, but now it has suddenly stopped .... It's not even funny.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 April 27 2020 23: 41 New
      +2
      I just talked about what I went through personally. and problems in medicine are not denied. the fact that in social networks I used to hang around with my mother for hours and now I spend several times less time is a fact. I used to sit in queues in the clinic and now I’m not sitting, this is also a fact. quality of service? I was satisfied at this stage. everything may change in the future but so far everything is fine. I’m not poking a finger at the sky, but saying that I saw it myself. as for propaganda, then do not insert video from the political assault channel. it does not fit with your statements.
    2. avva2012
      April 29 2020 04: 53 New
      +1
      This video someone put a minus .....
      Listen, people, this is who you need to be ???? Who and what may not agree there ??? !!!!
  • mole
    mole April 27 2020 22: 55 New
    0
    Therefore, probably in the Irkutsk region in the leaders in deaths from Kovid 4% of the number of cases, more than only in Pskov - 6%.
  • DEDPIHTO
    DEDPIHTO April 27 2020 05: 47 New
    +8
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    representatives of the staff of the Angarsk branch of IAPND

    All. Kaput them. yes

    For negotiations with pests, it was necessary to take charged syringes and an ambulance with strong orderlies ... A short-term diagnosis should be made on the spot .. winked ..
    1. Hagen
      Hagen April 27 2020 07: 12 New
      +3
      Quote: DEPHIHTO
      For negotiations with pests, it was necessary to take charged syringes and an ambulance with strong orderlies ...

      For negotiations, you need to take the results of the examination for the compliance of the course of treatment with the diagnosis. They do it, but for the money. And then connect the labor inspectorate and the prosecutor's office.
      1. DEDPIHTO
        DEDPIHTO April 27 2020 08: 13 New
        +5
        Let's say that you got bed bugs at home. Will you persuade some of the bugs to fight the rest? wassat This is a SYSTEM, unfortunately. hi
        1. Hagen
          Hagen April 27 2020 17: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: DEPHIHTO
          Let's say that you got bed bugs at home.

          In order to fight bugs, you need to keep yourself and the house clean, i.e. lead a hygienically correct lifestyle. To deal with the elements of the system, it is necessary to apply the correct legal methods of protection. And you, I think, you yourself were unlikely to take syringes and orderlies for a showdown with the system, but you offer what you yourself cannot. wassat
      2. depressant
        depressant April 27 2020 09: 29 New
        +9
        She recently left (from March 12 to 17) a full five days in a hospital near Moscow, which is considered good, and, without completing treatment, resolutely demanded discharge. I haven't eaten anything for two days, but when I tried ... my God! The point is not that everything is unsalted, unsweetened and without a drop of fat - the patient cannot be overloaded with anything like that. And the fact is that ... Have you ever washed a pot of borscht or soup, taking half of that pot with hot water? Having moved along the walls with a washcloth, you will receive slops in which a piece of cabbage floats and more rare small fractions of what has adhered to the walls. Or two or three vermicelli floats. It is these slops that form several portions of "borscht" or "soup". On the second - a cutlet made of bread with signs of taste of stale minced meat, which should have been thrown away long ago. Mashed potatoes are generally a song! No matter how much you dilute the homemade puree with water, you will not get such a suspension spreading on the plate - obviously, masters of cookery work in the hospital. I took my plates almost untouched. Such is the optimization of nutrition, obviously, based on the fact that
        Relatives and friends will bring home-made food to all sick people. Is there a contradiction between what the patient can eat and what they bring him from home? Probably not, since transmissions are allowed. This means that the hospital feeds the sick, saves on food - if only those whom no one brings die from hunger, they will starve and devour slops for a sweet soul ...

        I have no complaints about the staff, although doctors, especially nurses, are imperative about patients. Correct rudeness. The cleaning ladies are kind and affectionate. But it was clear that all the staff were on edge. Either because of the approaching coronavirus, or because of the limited salaries, or from something else. In my case, the cocking of the doctors broke through twice. Their toasts were burnt. The compartment filled with the smell of burning. Alarmed patients who could walk were poured into the corridor. After clarifying the circumstances to my remark "How can this be? There is a hospital here!" In response, I received rudeness and excuse, "And if one of your roommates defecates in bed? We tolerate!" To a casually thrown remark, intended not at all for doctors, but for the ward neighbors, that, they say, general quarantine was from March 7, and in the department it was announced only from the 17th, I received a cry from the doctor on duty:
        "Go to your America!" Of course, mentally, I just smiled: where am I and where is America, but then I realized how much the doctors are on edge, depressed. Apparently, for me as a patient, a lot has remained behind the scenes.
        It was not food that drove me out of the hospital, not the inflated staff, and not the close coronavirus — the hopelessness of the diagnosis.

        And if we talk about medicine in the context of what is still going on in the country according to the "optimization", and in fact - the utilization of the entire legacy of the Soviet Union - that which needed only a small correction, bringing to the modern level of technology and power institutions, but is still fiercely torn down at the root, then the "optimization" of medicine is not surprising. After all, our power is optimized! Everything that could be taken into it the worst instead of the best is taken. And optimizers are abroad. Saying an emphatic "No!" to our own optimizers, we are with this "No!" we cannot shout to their masters. How convincingly to say "No!" those and others?
        I try to do this by saying "No!" own.
        1. Hagen
          Hagen April 27 2020 11: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: depressant
          Have you ever washed a saucepan from borscht or soup with half a pot of hot water?

          I wonder at you. You are such an active girl, but do not present the obvious shortage of products to a senior official? It's so simple. You have a table number, there is a menu layout and the output of finished products in portions. Filmed on the phone and transferred to the head doctor with comments. No reaction? The same thing in the department of the regional public health department of the Moscow Region. I assure you, after that you will like to lie there. wink
          1. depressant
            depressant April 27 2020 13: 49 New
            +3
            You know, colleague, in the hospital I was so bad that there was only one desire: to get to my hole as soon as possible. And I didn’t take the phone with me. When I was taken away by ambulance, I was in a state of fainting, the earth was leaving under my feet - what a phone! Having no experience lying in a hospital, I didn’t capture a lot of things. Now I know what you need to take there and, just in case, I collected it in advance, but I really hope not to get into the medical institution anymore, the atmosphere is difficult there. Four patients in the ward, two ancient old women snore mightily, it’s impossible to sleep, stuffiness, vile smells, neighbors do not allow to open the window, they scream all day on the cell phone all the time, a hard bed of a foreign type, causing back pain, absolutely unsuitable for staggering Italian toilet in the only one on the department of the women's toilet. They took us to a repeated X-ray in a broken-up tarate, and back - about 700 meters on foot ... There are a lot of things wrong. With obviously large funds spent on the repair of the department. It was impossible to lie in an ambulance rattling with some kind of inside-cabin metal stuff - an icy plane from which the patient could easily slide. The headboard is not raised. I had to hold on to some stance. The doctor is in the cab chatting with the driver. It seems to me that if I lost consciousness, he would not have noticed. But in general, everything was done as if someone had realized their desire to deliver maximum inconvenience and suffering to a person who is already feeling bad.
            1. depressant
              depressant April 27 2020 14: 46 New
              +1
              And by the way, what kind of table number?
              I suspect that this is the name of the diet. What a diet there! They brought food in cisterns, loaded them onto a cart and transported the same thing in all the wards.
              1. Hagen
                Hagen April 27 2020 17: 36 New
                +3
                Quote: depressant
                what is the table number?

                Yes, this is a diet set according to the disease. I lost 12 kg with my "table" in three weeks. I don't even know in the end whether I liked it (diet) or not. laughing
            2. Hagen
              Hagen April 27 2020 17: 31 New
              +4
              Quote: depressant
              at the hospital I felt so bad

              I sympathize. When it's good, they go to other places. A year ago, I myself was in the hospital for three weeks with a nasty illness. Yes, I would not take "healthy" food in the "wild" into my mouth. But .... over time, along with experience, we acquire the burden of any accompanying quite tangible negative. The main thing is not to lose your presence of mind, then the "inmates" who chatter incessantly will be easier to bear. Sometimes everything around us becomes unbearably bad simply from our mood. I wish you health and optimism ...
              1. depressant
                depressant April 27 2020 18: 16 New
                +1
                Thanks, colleague Hagen, for your kind words of comfort. I try to hold on.
                But do our doctors hold on? After all, they are also people, from flesh, blood and nerves.
                On April 25, the head physician of the regional hospital for veterans in Krasnoyarsk "fell" out of the 5th floor window right during a conference call with the head of the regional Ministry of Health Boris Nemik. The woman was taken to Bodnitsa in serious condition.
                What, huh?
                It just became known that the head doctor of the Star City hospital committed suicide. Officially there are 6 coronaviruses, and unofficially - a lot for 20.
                What, huh?
                The high-ranking bureaucrats, they are also the conductors of the inhuman optimization of the state health care system, put the hospital staff in accordingly inhuman conditions, people can not stand the gap between the countless requirements imposed on them by optimizers and the scarcity of opportunities to meet those requirements in the performance of official duties. You can say as much as you like that everything is fine, as some colleagues in this forum do, but realities overtake us in the most tragic way.
                I believe these cases are not the only ones. I look forward to a tough and impartial investigation by the prosecutor's office of all episodes of suicide among doctors. I believe that the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation should be connected.
                1. Hagen
                  Hagen April 27 2020 18: 30 New
                  +2
                  Quote: depressant
                  Officially there are 6 coronaviruses, and unofficially - a lot for 20.
                  What, huh?

                  And how much can you trust unofficial information. Sometimes it seems to me that, reading everything in a row, sometimes we ourselves are choked with an overabundance of information and find it difficult to weed out the false. All of us together and leads to depression and other ailments. Sometimes you just need to grab a good book instead ... or take a walk in the fresh air. We ourselves are able to regulate the amount of "eaten" information, we often neglect this and become such suffering information addicts. And from this everything around us becomes unpleasant and even disgusting to us. Here is an example of an acting head physician who fell out of a window. Are you sure this is not an accident? After all, there is a lot of conflicting information, you choose the suicidal version. It is so? But is it true? Although in fairness I would like to note that the administrative pressure on the first heads of budgetary organizations today is "not childish", and they deservedly receive a multiple of their salary. But the time today, too, is not easy. However, as always ... I just suggest not to make hasty conclusions on insufficient information. It is necessary to treat everything with a certain amount of philosophical reasoning - everything passes, it will pass ...
                  1. depressant
                    depressant April 27 2020 18: 52 New
                    +1
                    Hagen, we have not made hasty conclusions for too long and have come to what we have. To reduce the country's defense capability in terms of its medical support. It is only in particular.
                    1. Hagen
                      Hagen April 27 2020 19: 05 New
                      +1
                      Quote: depressant
                      for too long we did not make hasty conclusions and came to what we have.

                      In this sense, I am an optimist. Still not so bad as to wait for improvements ... laughing But in general, there is no one to blame except yourself. As one character used to say - he didn’t give the enemy, he forged.
  • Beringovsky
    Beringovsky April 27 2020 05: 10 New
    16
    The Main Optimizer sits in the bunker.
    Our Bunker is president.
    And the officials simply follow the instructions from above, they do not have their own thoughts. In a word, what is pop, such is parish, we have what we have. Vertical however wassat
    1. DEDPIHTO
      DEDPIHTO April 27 2020 06: 48 New
      +8
      The vertical is good)) Bunker-president, wrecker-ministers, rogue-officials, footman-deputies, spin-off siloviki ... and forgot about heroic friends .. wassat
  • Uncle lee
    Uncle lee April 27 2020 05: 54 New
    16
    “We do not live in the Soviet Union

    1. apro
      apro April 27 2020 06: 21 New
      -6
      There is nothing Soviet there ...
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 April 27 2020 06: 27 New
    +7
    Unfortunately, health officials are increasingly hearing about economic feasibility.
    And we hear about human health
    less and less. But health care,
    with all desire, can not bring fabulous profits
    to the budget. It was created to treat people, and not for guaranteed profit.
  • Digital error
    Digital error April 27 2020 06: 53 New
    +2
    According to the official, not a single complaint about the availability of psychiatric care has been received.

    Well, here's the way out - and not to the Ministry of Health, but to Roszdravnadzor, Rospotrebnadzor and the prosecutor's office. It works, I tested it. And it works because there are the same officials who, in case of a threat to their well-being, will "go over the heads" of the leaders described in the article.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 07: 05 New
      +7
      Quote: DigitalError
      According to the official, not a single complaint about the availability of psychiatric care has been received.

      And who, will some psychos complain? This official has no brains at all, she needs to be put in the same room, and let her complain about how much she can fit.
      1. Digital error
        Digital error April 27 2020 07: 08 New
        +2
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Are there any psychos who will complain?

        Relatives are "legal representatives". Lack of brains is a ubiquitous problem - such higher bosses will not sit up, but will be "executive" ...
  • Most kind
    Most kind April 27 2020 07: 03 New
    +4
    It’s just that psychos should start gas blasting at home, being on home treatment and, perhaps, taking pills at home that honey carefully brought them. sister, well, if there are pills, but if they are not enough, then anyway a psychiatric nurse will come and give the psycho a sign. Once the amount of psycho. patients on the street will grow, and the number of crimes committed by them will increase, so immediately the optimizers will receive bonuses from the prosecutor's office and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. doctors surviving honey. institutions will be unsubscribed from the Ministry of Internal Affairs and prosecutor’s lack of available places, for which they will receive submissions and adm. fines under the protocols, so in Siberia it will be fun and everything at work. Then, for annual appeals to the darkest, everyone will ask to return the nut. hospitals and not raising the charge. pay, there would be alive, not fat, well, and as one activist said, good mood to you.
  • Digital error
    Digital error April 27 2020 07: 06 New
    +4
    The assembled workers were repeatedly accused of incorrectly organizing their work
    Among several applicants, once in 2012, I applied for the position of deputy director, and as a result, a woman from the regional center was sent to this place (career prospects - what is this?). This madame put her job on me (you’re young, and you applied for it - here’s a "labor test" for you) without exemption from mine. I had to work 10-12 hours to prove that I can. When it came to the surcharge for expanding the service area, I was told that I was overworking because "I cannot organize my working hours correctly." I wrote a statement on the same day (Friday), allowing me to think until Monday. On Monday, the director called, promised mountains of gold (later), but now we have to be patient. As a result, I worked for two weeks and quit. An interesting detail - when he quit his job, the director called and offered me a job in another organization - it means that my job suited him ...
  • samarin1969
    samarin1969 April 27 2020 07: 15 New
    +6
    The "humanization" of psychiatric clinics began in the 80s under the Soviet Union. Many "half-psyches" were released into the streets. Since the 2000s, control over psychiatric dispensaries began for the "exploitation" of patients. Now the commissions recognize the majority as "not sufficiently sick".

    In general, the topic of "optimization" of hospitals is rather sad and shrouded in mystery. "Writers" can be written "out of competition" as "patients". bully
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 27 2020 07: 40 New
      +9
      Quote: samarin1969
      Many "half-psyches" were released into the streets.

      But Raisa Gorbacheva, her brother, a children's writer, on the contrary, was put in a psychiatric hospital in the 89th, and was not released. There he died in the 10s. The tagged bastard did not even bother about his fate.
  • Oleg Skvortsov
    Oleg Skvortsov April 27 2020 07: 19 New
    +9
    I alone want to recycle all these optimizers - golikovy, starling, nabibulin, gref, kudrinyh. And another 1% of bugs that destroy my country and my people?
    1. depressant
      depressant April 27 2020 10: 52 New
      +6
      You are not alone! )))
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 27 2020 07: 35 New
    +5
    “We do not live in the Soviet Union — whether we like it or not”,
    - said the deputy minister.
    ....That's it... laughing
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 11: 13 New
      +3
      That's it...

      they are not ashamed of this phrase, Alexey Anatolyevich. Although, it seems, they should think about the patients, first of all, like those doctors whom they invited "to the carpet".
      referring to the experience of home treatment for patients with bronchial asthma

      after such words this "optimizer" can be replaced by Malysheva. It certainly won't get any worse.
      Colleagues, it's scary - when such "optimizers" come along and begin to rebuild everything "for themselves and their vision." It usually turns out very badly. Moreover, they feel infallible. They have a chair. You give them the word of reason - they give you twenty with pressure. Passed and talked with the like.
      I am glad one thing - IPA Doctors do not give up. soldier
      1. parusnik
        parusnik April 27 2020 12: 29 New
        +1
        Colleagues, it's scary - when such "optimizers" come here
        They came a long time ago. A person is not a flea, gets used to everything .... sad
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 12: 37 New
          -1
          A person is not a flea, gets used to everything ....

          and everything will end like in Ostrovsky's "Handsome Man"?
          - Survive, Pierre?
          - Survive, Georges!

          May God grant that the Doctors hear! hi
          It's not about salaries. Such diseases are not quickly treated. If patients are not left in the hospital, a lot of people dangerous to themselves and others will be on the streets and in their families. We practically do not see them just because their Doctors see them. Everyday. hi But with this approach, things could change soon.
  • podymych
    podymych April 27 2020 07: 52 New
    -1
    In no case can you reduce the asylum. Otherwise, after all, there will be nowhere to put KOVIDO-tantrums
  • svp67
    svp67 April 27 2020 07: 54 New
    11
    Lord, well, bring them to your senses ... Well, why is it necessary to abandon something bad, you have to demolish everything? And then on these ruins to rebuild something that has its own bunch of shortcomings ... Medicine has already been optimized so that in small towns, not to mention villages and villages, there is practically no one left. Now we are reaping the benefits ...
  • oracul
    oracul April 27 2020 07: 55 New
    +5
    The Stalinist formula - "Cadres decide everything" explains a lot. I can only emphasize one thing - the management system from top to bottom is largely filled with random people. The purpose of which is simply determined - to hold out until the retirement of a civil servant: federal, regional, municipal level. And this is a very difficult task. For example, you are 25 years old and you are invited to work as an official. Salaries seem to be small (so that people do not make noise), but various allowances provide a good final salary. However, the problem is that you will receive an employee's pension, usually after working for at least 15 years, but only if you resign from an official position. In other words, if in fifteen years you will be 40 and you want to leave, then the right to a civil servant's pension is lost. And most do not want this, so they cling to their place by hook or by crook. The main thing is to remain silent and follow the instructions of the leadership. Of course, the loophole remains - before going on a well-deserved rest to work again in officials, but naturally not for 15 years. And everything is covered in chocolate. Personnel must be constantly dealt with at all levels, checked on real deeds, and not on trainings and business games alone. Only in close communication with people, the ability to perceive their problems, and not only with the authorities, can you get a real idea and assessment of a person.
    1. your1970
      your1970 April 27 2020 20: 17 New
      0
      Quote: oracul
      However, the problem is that you will receive an employee's pension, usually after working for at least 15 years, but only if you retire from an official position. In other words, if in fifteen years you will be 40 and you want to leave, then the right to retire

      Only here is trouble
      1) since 65 years old,
      2) a pension with a length of service of 40 years in the chief specialist of the expert will be in the region of 11 ... with leading and just specialists 000-8 9
      With 15 years, the pension will be 7 .....
  • victor50
    victor50 April 27 2020 07: 55 New
    +4
    Quote: carstorm 11
    The time she spent on resolving issues was reduced significantly. The same thing happened in the clinic. SMS is now coming to her when to come and why. no need to stand at the reception

    I know that oh how far from everywhere it is.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus April 27 2020 07: 56 New
    +7
    "OPTIMIZERS" have another name - PEST.
  • Angrybeard
    Angrybeard April 27 2020 08: 03 New
    +6
    What can I say. Earlier, numerous examples of the so-called optimization caused confusion and dull discontent, but against the background of an epidemic, when glaring facts are revealed at the cost of the lives of patients and medical staff, there is only one requirement - the military tribunals.
    When I read the memoirs of the Bolshevik revolutionaries, they somewhere described a rotting empire full of swaggering fools and thieves at the top who were unable to think or plan - neither tactically nor strategically - about the future of the country and people. History has made a turn and again the same thing.
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir April 27 2020 08: 03 New
    +5
    “We do not live in the Soviet Union — whether we like it or not”,
    Well, yes, the Union had everything for the people. In Russia, everything is for kleptocrats.
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 April 27 2020 08: 13 New
    +2
    You can’t play with cards with their cheaters ..

    As long as you do not have AK, they will not respect you.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 April 27 2020 08: 53 New
    +4
    We are given to understand that we have unlearned our old habits and previous behavior after the end of the pandemic. It will not be difficult to guess how it will look. Someone will continue to live. And someone will flounder until he whips sour cream.
  • Siberia
    Siberia April 27 2020 08: 55 New
    +8
    Optimization and reduction of psychiatric institutions is stupidity and wrecking! You read the news - a man was killed there, a child was killed there ... Guilty was quickly found, but he was found insane by the court. And now thousands of such irresponsible people now go to our cities and what nobody knows on their mind! I see in my city - people who are clearly out of their mind are walking quietly around it ... But there are those who seem to be quite normal people ...
  • Igoresha
    Igoresha April 27 2020 08: 56 New
    +7
    it seems that Putin and Zelensky from one center are managed:
    https://hippy-end.livejournal.com/3390603.html


    Well now are the real chronicles of Armageddon. During the coronovirus epidemic, the global quarantine, the global economic crisis, our government has meanly and treacherously stabbed doctors in the back. I work in a large psychiatric hospital - KNPKL "PSYCHIATRIYA" of the city of Kiev in the Department of acute psychoses for 35 beds.

    Our beds have been filled 99% all last year. Acute psychotic patients. For a day there is 1 Nurse and 2 nurses. Which deal with excited, suicidal, aggressive, somatically severe patients, patients with AIDS, syphilis, etc. The nurse receives about 3 UAH per month, the nurse - about 500.



    that in the Russian Federation and in Ukraine the same thing and at the same time.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Avior
      Avior April 27 2020 09: 41 New
      -1
      The nurse receives about 3 UAH per month

      in fact, the minimum wage in Ukraine is 4700.
      What the nurses do there, and even in Kiev, and not in the outback, is unclear
      1. Igoresha
        Igoresha April 27 2020 10: 23 New
        +2
        Nurses usually keep order, wash floors, etc. I, when I was a gatsrabiter, lay in the Moscow hospital named after Pirogov and there worked as a nurse woman already from the Vladimirovsk region
        1. Avior
          Avior April 27 2020 10: 30 New
          0
          Yes, I know what the nurse does
          I had in mind something else - why do they work there with such a salary, and even in Kiev, where the average salary is 16500? I understand that the nurses do not pay the average, but I can’t believe it in 3500 even once. Not to mention that the salary simply cannot be lower than the minimum wage.
          It’s easier for them to move from place to place, in all hospitals and offices they are practically doing the same thing.
          it seemed to me in that message that your link didn’t agree on something.
          hi
          1. Igoresha
            Igoresha April 27 2020 10: 43 New
            -2
            "Mirror of the Week"! NATO mouthpiece, and the article is fresh from April 25 this year. so they say
            Immediately after Easter, the staff of the capital mental hospital reduced salaries by half

            https://zn.ua/UKRAINE/vrach-psihiatr-pokazala-hroniki-armageddona-v-kievskoy-psihlechebnice-352278_.html

            fat years have passed (((on the site https://www.work.ua/en/jobs-kyiv-sanitary/ not higher than 12 thousand UAH and the dentist’s office, that is, they obviously do not reach the average Kiev in 16 thousand. In New Oskol of the Belgorod Region talked with a nurse, worked in a mental hospital for one and a half hours and was going to leave her 20 rubles a month, it turned out last year.
            1. Avior
              Avior April 27 2020 11: 17 New
              -1
              this link also with a link to the same post, the text of which you cited
              he seemed strange to me
              and as for
              fat years have passed (((on the site https://www.work.ua/ru/jobs-kyiv-sanitary/ not higher than 12 thousand UAH and the dentist’s office, that is, they obviously do not reach the average Kiev in 16 thousand.

              12 thousand hryvnias is 33 thousand rubles., The conversion rate is 2,75, not bad for a nurse.
              Well, in dentistry, salaries are higher, of course, than for others, but I don’t believe in 3500 either, it’s simply unrealistic, for that kind of money no one would work
              1. Igoresha
                Igoresha April 27 2020 13: 55 New
                0
                if you believe the article with ZN then s \ n have been reduced, and if there is no money at all then where to go and you will work for food.
                12 x 4 now it’s 48 thousand rubles, now it’s 1 UAH = 4 rubles, for 3500 UAH it would work the same way, in the summer I was in a Kharkov hospital, nurses from the Valkovsky district, taking into account the way back there, it’s not exactly the same amount Of course, it’s better to ask directly, but one of my only nurse I knew in the Czech Republic hit the long crown bully
                1. Avior
                  Avior April 27 2020 22: 19 New
                  +2
                  actually 1 hryvnia = 2,75 rubles, such a course
                  and the salary in Ukraine cannot be less than 4723 in any way - this is the official minimum salary
  • The comment was deleted.
  • veritas
    veritas April 27 2020 09: 00 New
    +9
    We will not deviate from our demands, we will stockpile with determination and win - for the sake of the employees of our institution, for the sake of our patients and all citizens!

    Respect is caused by such people. But it’s just that, they won’t get away with it. They will take revenge and do harm in every way.
  • awdrgy
    awdrgy April 27 2020 09: 24 New
    +6
    You crawled to ask for food, you can't walk anymore (it turned out to be unlucky), but they start asking you with a clever look so that you understand they are asked to justify the refusal of a crust of bread This is the work of our officials And you sit down with a person, talk there is something that does not allow on a smart piece of paper something is written) So find a way out or another option to help a person and the fastest and most efficient without red tape And sculpt excuses on pieces of paper referring this is not a business, this is sabotage. learned to do nothing justifying the next scribble) And they get a considerable salary But it is hard work to help people and it requires certain qualities-ingenuity, high speed of decision-making, improvisation and logic, and most importantly, fewer smart words (such as optimization of development, etc.) most of us "upward" do not even address, people understand that at best they will "politely send three letters" and at worst it is still their fault And maybe if the interests of the applicant (!!!) coincide purely with the interests of some official, a businessman who was screwed on, etc., who himself was going to resolve the issue in this direction (some kind of personal interest, let's say the road is bad and he also needs to drive along it to his house ) success will be achieved There is a complete impasse in general
  • dgonni
    dgonni April 27 2020 09: 27 New
    +6
    The question is that the leadership of the ministry lives in a completely different reality. They do not walk along the same streets with doctors and sick people. They do not think that a discharged patient can do business with human casualties. And the fact that they or their relatives can become these victims. Moscow is far away, security and all matters. We will not touch.
    But as the corona virus has shown, it can affect everyone.
    In principle, all the special services of the world, during an attempt on higher persons, are afraid of the so-called mad grandmother. Well, they have such professional slang !.
    And this expression implies an attempt to assassinate a loner without any connections and flashes on people and any networks. so identifying such a very big problem. By the way, almost successful assassinations, both against Stalin, Brezhnev and the same Reagan, were committed by loners. And they were saved by the extreme circle of protection, or even God's hand. You cannot call it otherwise.
    By the way, schizophrenics think very rationally and even sophisticatedly.
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 April 27 2020 09: 49 New
    +5
    When money in the state becomes an end in itself, this periodically leads to a social crisis ... it breaks where it is thin ... the government has thinned medicine so much that it itself began to suffer from it ... and only after that it changed its mind ... badly, when the government in the country belongs to people whose sole purpose is to eat deliciously and sleep sweetly ...
  • Qwertyarion
    Qwertyarion April 27 2020 10: 11 New
    +5
    We will not back down from our demands, we will stockpile with determination and win

    Recently I watched a plot on TV about the fight against coronavirus in Italy.
    Our military doctor in Italy said there: “One of the reasons for the difficult situation with the epidemic is that the optimization of healthcare in Italy took place earlier than in Russia and that is why everything is so bad, many hospitals were closed, there are virtually no infectious disease specialists, etc. ETC.
    It turns out that the optimization of health care is carried out in many countries, obviously according to someone else's recommendations ..... which Russia is also fulfilling.
    1. avva2012
      April 27 2020 14: 02 New
      +4
      Qwertyarion
      It turns out that the optimization of health care is carried out in many countries, obviously according to someone else's recommendations ..... which Russia is also fulfilling.

      Oh, how else does it go ... Germany alone put it all on. Here are the results with the same coronavirus. Yes, and crazy. they did not reduce hospitals, but modernized them.
      1. Qwertyarion
        Qwertyarion April 27 2020 14: 26 New
        +1
        Quote: avva2012
        Oh, how else comes out ...

        I know only one organization in the world whose recommendations it is impossible not to heed, and this is the IMF.
        1. avva2012
          April 27 2020 14: 38 New
          +2
          Then Germany is not a decree. One thing I can say, but optimization has been prepared for several years. First, city hospitals were transferred to direct regional subordination, and then, unification and reduction. Everything is done very thoughtfully.
          1. Qwertyarion
            Qwertyarion April 27 2020 15: 22 New
            +1
            Quote: avva2012
            and then, consolidation and contraction. Everything is done very thoughtfully.

            For what purpose, for what?
            Logically, it turns out that hard-to-reach, low-quality medicine will affect the life expectancy of the population, and with an increase in the retirement age, very many simply will not survive.
            Everything is simple and sad ...
            1. avva2012
              April 27 2020 15: 34 New
              +4
              Qwertyarion
              For what purpose, for what?

              And for what purpose was it necessary to slander the workers and peasants until the year 17 around the world? After all, after the Revolution, we immediately found resources and opportunities to somehow improve the life of ordinary people in the West so that they would not look at the USSR.
              It seems to me that greed and a sense of power is a very strong drug. You look at these meandering people from the armored saloon of Benckley and feel like a blond beast, a superman. The problem is that the parasite does not consider itself a parasite.
  • Old Orc
    Old Orc April 27 2020 10: 24 New
    +6
    Unfortunately, medicine is presented as a service in the world. something like a hairdresser. Which is fundamentally wrong. Medicine, education is a system that forms the obligations of the state and government. If they are not, then there is not, or soon there will be no state that refuses to fulfill its obligations.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 April 27 2020 11: 03 New
    +5
    There is nothing to discuss .... officials have been instructed to reduce, optimize something there, they will do it.
    the motto "there is no money, but you ......." will survive everyone and everything, any government. It's a SYSTEM!
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 27 2020 12: 58 New
    +1
    I can assume that the outcome of this struggle will be almost according to Pushkin.
    In the depths of Siberian ores
    Keep your patience,
    But your mournful work will be gone
    And we think of a great aspiration.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • avva2012
    April 27 2020 14: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Dmitry! hi
    The Doctor has a "comment break" for another reason. And not a break, but a protest action related to the incorrect behavior of one of the authors with the audience. Otherwise, you are right.
    I really lack communication with Alexander. request

    Thank you very much for the "not enough ..." hi But Dmitry is more right in this matter. The last year, at least, the loads have increased. I work in the "acute" male department alone without doctors at 3 rates, plus another 0,5 on duty. And other problems piled up.
  • faterdom
    faterdom April 27 2020 14: 29 New
    +7
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: Dalny V
    And the representatives of the kaput, and the hospital itself, apparently, also kaput,

    Remember how the cardiologist at the Ivanovo hospital Putin complained about the window dressing? He was quickly fired and declared an agent provocateur.

    The biggest mystery pops up: who is our main customer of window dressing. And these are not regional stupid butt ministers. We now know exactly what his name is. And even if he becomes obnoxious, and writes God into accomplices, he won’t help!
  • Radikal
    Radikal April 27 2020 14: 46 New
    +5
    Quote: avva2012
    No matter how cynical it sounded, but in this case they came for doctors, that is, for medicine, and accordingly for our health and lives, only the skrepo-inhabitants do not see cause-effect relationships here and with a brisk step march directly to the slaughterhouse, but without wool and accumulated fat.

    Tired of being silent.
    And what you write, how to hammer into people's heads?

    Unfortunately, without the conventional "Mauser" - nothing. request bully
    1. avva2012
      April 27 2020 16: 05 New
      +3
      Radikal
      Unfortunately without

      It is necessary that the idea prevails in the minds of people that only the whole world can we change something in our lives. There are few parasites, but we .....
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Mite
    Mite April 27 2020 16: 23 New
    +3
    The collapse of the USSR began after the closure of many psychiatric hospitals ... The song of Vysotsky immediately came to mind "Dear program .." And it's funny and sad. no ... And they complained to the whole house. To close them up always, everything is useless ...
    We will not deviate from our demands, we will stockpile with determination and win - for the sake of the employees of our institution, for the sake of our patients and all citizens!

    Hold on, maybe this info will continue to go on. You need to fight otherwise Russia will turn into a huge nuthouse!
    1. avva2012
      April 27 2020 17: 09 New
      +5
      Mite
      Hold on, maybe this info will continue to go ..

      There will be no other way. I have been working for a quarter of a century and I think that it was not in vain that I lived my conscious life, since many people, despite the terrible diagnosis, were returned to normal life. People got married, gave birth to children, they work just taking supportive treatment. Recently I met a former patient and at least recognized him, but frankly, I thought that he had been special or forced for a long time. like or in a cemetery, because he had terrible attacks. But he’s okay, he visits our clinic once a month, takes treatment, is married, works.
      That's for the sake of him and many of our other patients, we will continue to fight. Otherwise, beyond the threshold, what will I say in my defense?
      1. Mite
        Mite April 27 2020 17: 20 New
        +3
        Quote: avva2012
        But he’s okay, he visits our clinic once a month, takes treatment, is married, works.
        That's for the sake of him and many of our other patients, we will continue to fight. Otherwise, beyond the threshold, what will I say in my defense?

        There are fewer and fewer people like you in Russia .. I would like to help you really .. It feels like you relate to your work with a soul!
        The main thing is not to be silent .. There are a lot of normal men on the site and with connections, maybe that’s what happens hi
        1. avva2012
          April 27 2020 17: 33 New
          +2
          Thanks. In fact, those who "treat their work with soul" are among honey. workers, fortunately, there are still a lot. One must sincerely love medicine in order to plunge into its realities to stay there. Our nurses / orderlies, honey. sisters, these are special people. What they take from shift to shift cannot be described. And not only here.
          And I hope that we will all be able to stop dehumanization in our country, that we will not turn into "khataskraischikov". Russia has always lived in Peace, in society.
          1. Mite
            Mite April 27 2020 18: 46 New
            +3
            Quote: avva2012
            And I hope that we will all be able to stop dehumanization in our country, that we will not turn into "khataskraischikov". Russia has always lived in Peace, in society.

            Your words, yes to God’s soul or pitchfork to the side of power, people have been mumbling to the point .. hi
            1. avva2012
              April 27 2020 18: 55 New
              +2
              Mite
              To God’s soul or pitchfork to the side of power, people have been mumbling to the grave

              They say that people harness for a long time, but travels quickly. They will bring to the handle, bring. If doctors all over the country, then there, then snarl, so where, so to speak, a peaceful profession. They brought ....
          2. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid April 27 2020 18: 58 New
            0
            Quote: avva2012
            Thanks. In fact, those who "treat their work with soul" are among honey. workers, fortunately, there are still a lot. One must sincerely love medicine in order to plunge into its realities to stay there. Our nurses / orderlies, honey. sisters, these are special people. What they take from shift to shift cannot be described. And not only here. ......
            Yes, I met such kind good nannies.
            1. avva2012
              April 27 2020 19: 01 New
              +2
              These kind nannies still need to be educated, taught, and for starters choose from those who are adapted to this work.
              1. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid April 27 2020 19: 15 New
                0
                Do you understand what? Alexander! In Surgery Separate .---- far, it may not be seen at all. For the entire stay in the hospital. And the nannies are nearby, and they can work more and you see them more often. What they bring up, people do not think.
                1. avva2012
                  April 27 2020 19: 18 New
                  +1
                  So in the end, the head took over the work of these nannies. branch. For the most part, they go to the personnel department only after an interview with the future direct manager. And you look after them and explain, and this is also your job.
                  1. Reptiloid
                    Reptiloid April 27 2020 19: 27 New
                    0
                    I could not imagine that, Alexander!
                    Quote: avva2012
                    So in the end, the head took over the work of these nannies. branch. For the most part, they go to the personnel department only after an interview with the future direct manager. And you look after them and explain, and this is also your job.
                    1. avva2012
                      April 27 2020 19: 39 New
                      +1
                      The manager is responsible for his employees. We, as in the army, only are not called to us, and therefore there is the opportunity to choose. The last few years, junior and middle honey. staff paid not bad. And therefore there was an opportunity to select capable candidates. In the 90s, he held on to every nurse, if she had worked since the Soviet era, if only she had not left. Because such a miracle could come in its place that it could not be described. And where you got to, someone had to work. And now, everything can happen again. People can leave, a team that has evolved over the years to disintegrate. Who will feel good from this?
                      1. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid April 27 2020 19: 57 New
                        0
                        And who was going in the 90s? Those who also fell under reductions, because in our country many people from the suburbs lost their jobs, but it’s hard to find, they destroyed it, and travel far. And in the hospital --- a day. Riding less and less. And the staff was also fed in the hospital.
                        After all, then the industry was optimized, hospitals supported many.
                      2. avva2012
                        April 27 2020 20: 20 New
                        +2
                        Well then in the hospital, at least ours, not like honey. staff, patients had nothing to feed. Honey. the staff from their gardens, some potatoes, some greens. Different people came, yet we have a specific service. But somatic hospitals helped a lot. It was then that often the old people were put in bunks, since there was at least some kind of food and they could reach the pension.
                        Now, optimizers do not allow such things. Humanity is such a thing. Dimensionless.
                      3. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid April 27 2020 20: 30 New
                        0
                        What surprised me somewhat. I have not heard about alcoholism and other habits.
                        Also, the department of nursing care, it turns out, this is not treatment, but the content ... ... We say about alcoholism and treatment in the hospital,. Pro .. different dependencies ...... about the nursing care did not hear. ...
                      4. avva2012
                        April 27 2020 20: 39 New
                        +3
                        Reptiloid
                        I didn’t hear about nursing care. ...

                        This is a unique branch for the country, and not only for our region. There is a manager and honey. sisters with nurses. Naturally, it provides not only care, but also supportive treatment for patients in the final stage of a disease such as schizophrenia and patients with senile dementia.
                        It’s a gold mine for some, as it seems, since you can tear money from relatives of patients with dementia. Therefore, the "competitor" is removed.
                      5. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid April 28 2020 00: 28 New
                        +1
                        -
                        Quote: avva2012
                        ....... This is a unique branch for the country, and not only for our region. There is a manager and honey. sisters with nurses. Naturally, it provides not only care, but also supportive treatment for patients in the final stage of a disease such as schizophrenia and patients with senile dementia.
                        It’s a gold mine for some, as it seems, since you can tear money from relatives of patients with dementia. Therefore, the "competitor" is removed.
                        Not even imagine it
                      6. avva2012
                        April 28 2020 05: 09 New
                        +1
                        Another unique department is closed: rehabilitation of patients with alcohol and drug addiction. When asked by patients, where will we live? The answer followed, this is a medical institution, not a night shelter. In psychiatry and narcology, both medical and social problems have always coexisted. Once upon a time .....
    2. Mite
      Mite April 27 2020 19: 17 New
      +4
      Quote: avva2012
      These kind nannies still need to be educated, taught, and for starters choose from those who are adapted to this work.

      Exactly ! One alone will start (a black sheep) and all the many years of work down the drain .. This is not only in medicine, but also in other areas hi
      1. avva2012
        April 27 2020 19: 20 New
        +4
        Of course, but the human factor in medicine, it especially affects the result. It happens that a person is good, but in special conditions it breaks. Not his work is simple.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 18: 55 New
    +2
    So it turns out, Alexander, that in addition to treatment, except for pills, you gave that patient the right direction, so that he would take the medicine, he would follow the regimen, he wouldn’t drink alcohol.
    Thanks to you --- the family has developed.
    1. avva2012
      April 27 2020 19: 10 New
      +4
      Dmitry, medications not only cure / stop psychosis, but also change the perception of the world. When a person's head stops shouting from voices, when the voices stop threatening, ordering, at this moment it is necessary to convey to the consciousness that this medicine has done its job, the brain has protected, for example. And it is true, but the drug acts differently for each patient. Individual characteristics. And besides, you need to find an approach to each person so that he sees you as a doctor, and no one else. And if everyone is rowed with the same brush, then there will be no effect. A person will lose faith that they can help him, become embittered. Have you watched Joker? So, until their service was cut, albeit seedy, he still lived with the hope of understanding, and the drug worked. And then everything. He was thrown out of society and he began to take revenge.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 18: 50 New
    +1
    ...... the collapse of the USSR began after the closure of many mental hospitals .....

    Somehow I don’t agree ..... ????? Maybe on the contrary ---- people didn’t understand what was happening, the nerves gave in,
    did the hospitals hit? Then, after all, a whole layer of people who lost their jobs and ended up without a piece of bread turned out. In the hospital, what kind of food saved from hunger. In any case, the most helpless, people in a difficult situation, received support in the hospital.
  • rotkiv04
    rotkiv04 April 27 2020 17: 20 New
    +3
    It’s time for Kremlin optimizers to think that after hysteria with a pandemic, which they themselves arranged, it will be necessary to restore psychiatric hospitals (as they are now heroically rebuilding and building hospitals), as patients can greatly increase
  • iouris
    iouris April 27 2020 17: 50 New
    +3
    And then WE do not see WHERE we live: where the chief doctors fall out of the windows during official telephone conversations with the "optimizers". It is not yet known how this whole story will end and when.
    1. avva2012
      April 27 2020 19: 14 New
      +3
      This is Man! To the last, she defended her point of view that it is impossible to arrange a department for patients with coronavirus in an unsuitable room. But there were not so long ago and specialized rooms, they were called infectious hospitals. Optimized!
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 27 2020 19: 05 New
    +2
    Quote: avva2012
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Dmitry! hi
    The Doctor has a "comment break" for another reason. And not a break, but a protest action related to the incorrect behavior of one of the authors with the audience. Otherwise, you are right.
    I really lack communication with Alexander. request

    Thank you very much for the "not enough ..." hi But Dmitry is more right in this matter. The last year, at least, the loads have increased. I work in the "acute" male department alone without doctors at 3 rates, plus another 0,5 on duty. And other problems piled up.

    Great people working with you nearby, Alexander!
    Perhaps your example is very important for them.
    Let everything work out, what you seek. Health to you, your colleagues, people you care about.
    1. Mite
      Mite April 27 2020 19: 19 New
      +5
      Quote: Reptiloid
      Great people working with you nearby, Alexander!
      Perhaps your example is very important for them.
      Let everything work out, what you seek. Health to you, your colleagues, people you care about.

      I join my soul with you and people like you in Russia, I hope all is not lost yet .. hi
    2. avva2012
      April 27 2020 20: 33 New
      +3
      Reptiloid
      people are working with you, Alexander!

      Yes, Dmitry, people are definitely wonderful! Such unanimity from the majority, the IOPND administration, certainly did not expect. And what about an example. Until last year, we had a former chief physician, born in 1934, Fedotenko V.E., this is a real example! Man, when I found out what was going on with us, I went to the hospital with a heart attack. She actively participates as best she can. In particular, she wrote a letter in support of the hospital addressed to acting. governor and acting Minister of Health of the Irkutsk Region. What result do you think? It was sent to us to respond to this appeal. The letter ended with these words: "Save the hospital!" What should we answer to it?
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 28 2020 00: 20 New
        +2
        Yes, I know about this letter.
        On their part, this is a formal relationship.
  • Phoenix040
    Phoenix040 April 28 2020 20: 15 New
    +2
    If the deputy minister does not understand that psychos dangerous for the population cannot be let out of the psychiatric hospital, then she has a headache herself and she cannot work in the ministry for health reasons !!! I have a question for Putin, who appoints such officials - If a psycho who is released from a psychiatric hospital kills someone on the street, who and how will be responsible for this ?! Or again something will be mumbled on TV and that’s all ?! Then Russia needs a new president !!! And this one with the coronavirus screwed up so that there are already more cases in the Russian Federation than in China !!!
  • Jager
    Jager April 29 2020 14: 47 New
    +2
    It is curious that ANYONE even from the top (who will forget about his traveling colleague the next day) can get into this charitable institution. God forbid.
    1. avva2012
      April 29 2020 16: 26 New
      +1
      Yes, just a blood vessel in the head in the wrong place will burst, no luck and "welcome." You cannot protect yourself from a bag, a prison and a mental hospital.