Sanitary vessel "Armenia" sunk by fascists discovered off the coast of Crimea

Sanitary vessel "Armenia" sunk in 1941 aviation fascists and sunken off the coast of Crimea, discovered by members of the "Russian underwater research expedition." This was reported by the media with reference to the message of the expedition.

According to the report, the ship was discovered by the deep-sea apparatus of the Ministry of Defense off the coast of Crimea, about 18 kilometers from Yalta at a depth of 1500 meters. The location of "Armenia" was established after a survey of more than 300 square kilometers of the Black Sea. The preliminary location of the vessel was determined in 2016.

Now doubts have been dispelled, and our point, announced back in 2016, was confirmed. Now we know exactly where the biggest disaster on the Black Sea lies. The ship was on a large slope, sliding into a crevice. Depth, as previously stated, 1 meters

- said the representative of the expedition.

It should be reminded that the “Armenia” motor ship, converted into a medical vessel, left Sevastopol on November 6, 1941. On board were the wounded, medical staff of several hospitals, employees of the Artek pioneer camp with their families, and part of the party leadership of Crimea. Also on board were archives, museum collections and collections. On the evening of November 6, "Armenia" went to the external raid of Balaklava to take on board the NKVD officers and the personnel of local hospitals. That same night, the ship went to Yalta, where it took the last passengers and sailed to Tuapse.

On November 7, 1941, at 11 a.m., a German torpedo bomber He-25 launched two torpedoes and both hit the target on a ship that had the distinctive signs of a medical vessel. The ship sank literally in 111 minutes, taking to the bottom from five to ten thousand people, the exact number of victims has not yet been established.

Comments

[The leader of the Redskins]

Unfortunately, there were several anti-aircraft guns in Armenia ...

[Graz]

do you really think that the Germans wouldn’t have sunk Armenia if they weren’t there?

[The leader of the Redskins]

I do not think. I am stating a fact. Leave the story to the alternativeists.

[Shadow041]

The absence of anti-aircraft guns did not prevent the Nazis from shooting ambulance trains and red cross trucks transporting the wounded. So with or without guns, the ship would definitely be attacked

[Russian jacket]

Nazarius .... In the English Athenia were guns?

[The leader of the Redskins]

Yes, I do not condone the Nazis! I don’t understand ours - they painted the ship in a military color, installed anti-aircraft guns, and when it was sunk, they started shouting that the hospital ship had been shot! From the history of WW2, I know only one case of the nobility of the Kriegsmarine. And the rest are the same attacks.

[smart ass]

The presence of anti-aircraft artillery on a ship with a red cross automatically makes it a legal target for the enemy. It is clear that the Germans do not care. War of annihilation.

[Prisoner]

Do you think the people who fought with this evil spirits for more than four months did not know that the ZU make this ship a combat unit? They probably knew. Why were they installed? Surely they already had an idea and experience of what it is like to hope for "honor" and the observance of the rules of war by these ugly people.

[smart ass]

Setting the memory is just an attempt to increase the chances of survival in a war of annihilation. The efficiency of Xe 111 is surprising, it seems like a single was bombed and very accurately

[AU Ivanov.]

Heinkel 111 did not bomb, he torpedoed. It is unlikely that a horizontal bomber could put a bomb in a ship. Is that a topmaster.

[CERBERFOL]

There is no excuse for such crimes! Kingdom of heaven to the lost.

[Prisoner]

A goofy attempt to justify the Nazi scum.

[Mite]

Quote: Captive

A goofy attempt to justify the Nazi scum.

Definitely, they were just hunting for red crosses ... Then they stopped applying them, because it’s even worse ...
Messers with pleasure shot these ships and gogosh trains on the air ..

[Sergey Zhikharev]

And if they were not there, then the Nazis would not drown the Soviet ship ....

[seti]

Quote: Sergey Zhikharev

And if they were not there, then the Nazis would not drown the Soviet ship ....

Oh holy simplicity.

[Sergey Zhikharev]

Oh yes of course!
The Germans did not plan to destroy the Soviet people, so they strictly followed the rules of warfare. Several anti-aircraft guns - there is a reason to stoke a medical ship. The Russians did not sign the Geneva and Hague conventions - there are legitimate reasons to destroy captured Russians. And the fact that German planes shot columns of refugees-this is all the propaganda of the USSR.
So what?

[seti]

Quote: Sergey Zhikharev

The Germans did not plan to destroy the Soviet people, so they strictly followed the rules of warfare. Several anti-aircraft guns - there is a reason to stoke a medical ship. The Russians did not sign the Geneva and Hague conventions - there are legitimate reasons to destroy captured Russians. And the fact that German planes shot columns of refugees-this is all the propaganda of the USSR.

The Germans or rather the Nazis did not plan to destroy the peoples of the USSR? Are you out of your mind? I advise you to get acquainted for general education:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нацистская_политика_по_отношению_к_славянам

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Политика_Третьего_рейха_в_отношении_гражданского_населения_на_оккупированных_территориях_СССР
Legal grounds ...- it’s a pity that now it’s not 45 and we do not have Lynch’s law
Well, of course, it was not the German Nazis who successfully applied racial theory, moreover, it was mainly against the East Slavic peoples ...

[Sergey Zhikharev]

Dear colleague seti
1. In addition to this paragraph that you quoted, there is another last sentence.
2. It seems to me that there is a banal misunderstanding, and the dispute begins from scratch:
A colleague, the Leader of the Redskins, indicated that there were several antiaircraft guns on the "Armenia".
I pointed out in an ambiguous form: that if there were no anti-aircraft guns, they would not be drowned (in fact, the presence of anti-aircraft guns allowed the Nazis to legally sink "Armenia", but if there were no anti-aircraft guns and escort ships, "Armenia" would still be sunk)

[Pavel57]

Sergey Zhikharev (Sergey Zhikharev) -
..... The Russians did not sign the Geneva and Hague conventions - there are legitimate reasons to destroy captured Russians.

The main thing is that the Germans signed it. And mortality in Soviet captivity was lower than in German.

[Sardanapalus]

In the days of the USSR, the FRG declared about 600 who did not return from captivity.

[Zementbomber]

The Russians did not sign the Geneva and Hague conventions - there are legitimate reasons to destroy captured Russians.

The USSR was a full member of all the Hague Conventions. As the assignee of the Russian Empire. And parts (not all) of the Geneva Conventions. But Soviet prisoners of war def. Geneva Convention - really did not.

[Aborigen4ik]

Do not write nonsense.
On August 25, 1931, the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs M. M. Litvinov signed a special declaration announcing the USSR's accession to the convention.
It turns out:
1. The USSR joined the "Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field."
2. Germany was obliged to comply with the Convention regardless of the actions of the USSR.
On July 17, 1941, the USSR, through an intermediary - Sweden - addressed Germany with the message that it recognized the 1907 Hague Convention
and ready to fulfill it on the basis of reciprocity. Having not received an answer, after three weeks on August 8, 1941, all the heads of the diplomatic missions of countries with which the USSR had diplomatic relations received a note of the same content.
In order to say after all this that the death of our prisoners in concentration camps and the wounded in hospitals is Stalin's fault, that the country and its leader did nothing to save people, our liberde must truly have no conscience.

[strannik1985]

Nonsense do not write

It seems to me sarcasm.

[Zementbomber]

1. It would be nice if you learned to distinguish between different Geneva Conventions.
The "Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War" and the "Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field" are different and unrelated documents.
2. ARTICLE 82.
Les dispositions de la prГ © sente Convention devront ГЄtre respectГ © es par les Hautes Parties Contractantes en toutes circonstances.
Au cas oГ№, en temps de guerre, un des belligГ © rants ne serait pas partie Г la Convention, ses dispositions demeureront nГ © anmoins obligatoires entre les belligГ © rants qui y participent.
Translate yourself.
3. Appeal of the Government of the USSR - The Government of the German Empire did not commit to anything. Moreover, in the appeal of the Government of the USSR, extremely significant reservations were made. In these conditions, the Reich could either show "good will" or not show it. Hitler - for completely understandable reasons (just read Mein Kampf) - decided not to show such "good will". The result is more than well known.

And "liberda" (especially yours) - it has nothing to do with it. I am a radical Wielkopolska nationalist of radical ultra-right views.

[Walking]

Quote: Sergey Zhikharev

Oh yes of course!
The Germans did not plan to destroy the Soviet people, so they strictly followed the rules of warfare. Several anti-aircraft guns - there is a reason to stoke a medical ship. The Russians did not sign the Geneva and Hague conventions - there are legitimate reasons to destroy captured Russians. And the fact that German planes shot columns of refugees-this is all the propaganda of the USSR.
So what?

What kind of non-humans for such a comment put so many advantages?

[Archon]

41 would have become because it was so ordered. and at 45, the attitude towards the USSR changed, but they would still, because were losing.

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Sergey Zhikharev

And if they were not there, then the Nazis would not drown the Soviet ship ....

Here explain to me, wretched, dumb, stupid, why they destroyed ordinary, women, children, old people, prisoners - (unarmed, wounded) soldiers in the end. camps ... They conducted sadistic medical experiments on them, they pumped out blood from children ... It’s also like people were without guns and rifles ...? Why did the Nazis bomb cities and villages with peaceful people ....?

[Sergey Zhikharev]

Here explain to me, wretched, dumb, stupid, why they destroyed ordinary, women, children, old people, prisoners - (unarmed, wounded) soldiers in the end. camps ... They conducted sadistic medical experiments on them, they pumped out blood from children ... It’s also like people were without guns and rifles ...? Why did the Nazis bomb cities and villages with peaceful people ....?

Theory of the Super Race and Living Space.
Aryans (Germans) must live, and subhumans (Slavs) must die. Those who can work - let them work, those who cannot work - should not live. And since it is easy to destroy wasteful subhumans, then every resource must be used. We need an experimental "rabbit" or "laboratory mice" - there are prisoners; you need human blood - there is a resource (children, women, adults - no difference). At the same time, the Nazis themselves somehow did not bother that they were mixing the blood of ARIEV and Subhuman.
As for the bombing of cities and villages, the answer is simple: war. A defenseless city or a major strategic object, Polish, Norwegian, English, Yugoslav - no difference.

[mintai_kot]

And you are aware that of the 28 million dead in World War II, according to various sources, from 15 to 18 million are civilians !?

[figwam]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Unfortunately, there were several anti-aircraft guns in Armenia ...

And my grandfather was traveling on June 22, 1941 from Brest, on a passenger train, but German aircraft bombed the train.

[svp67]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Unfortunately, there were several anti-aircraft guns in Armenia ...

"Wilhelm Gustlov" was our answer ...
I hope the ship is already recognized as a "war burial"

[Zementbomber]

Yes, there were Soviet otvetki and much more abruptly "Gustlov" in terms of military significance. "Tortilla" and "Teia" can be remembered for example.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Unfortunately, there were several anti-aircraft guns in Armenia ...

It seems like an excuse for the Nazis.

[Zementbomber]

Honestly - I for example - strongly notI am sure that the FOSHists need to justify themselves loved by AntifA ...

[bukhach]

Why justify them, they must be destroyed, however, this applies not only to the Nazis but to the other extreme of all colors and colors so that they do not imagine about themselves.

[Zementbomber]

So "them" no one "justifies". AntiFa - is trying with all her might to merge the Fa into scrap. The Fa, in turn, is trying with all its might to merge AntiFa into scrap. The usual game of Life. "those" against "these".

[Olgovich]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Unfortunately, there were several anti-aircraft guns in Armenia ...

what do you regret

guns were installed only AFTER have already been bombed unarmed sanitary ships "Kotovsky" "Adjara", Kuban ".

Those. it was a FORCED measure and an answer to lawlessness.

the mistake was the order to call the ship in Yalta, where he lost night time ....

[New Year day]

Quote: Olgovich

the mistake was an order to go to Yalta

There were a lot of mistakes:
1. evacuation of all doctors by one ship
2. Beria’s order to return the ship from Yalta to Balaklava- and who dares not to fulfill his order
3. the mistake of two fighters, covering the ship and two MO

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Silvestr

Beria’s order to return the ship from Yalta to Balaklava- and who dares not to fulfill his order

There it seems like the NKVD with their pieces of paper stuffed.

[New Year day]

Quote: Mordvin 3

There it seems like the NKVD with their pieces of paper stuffed.

Who knows? Maybe paper, maybe not. Maybe that's why they dived into it?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Silvestr

Maybe paper, maybe not. Maybe that's why they dived into it?

In the Komsomol read in the early 90's. The NKVD exported its archive.

[New Year day]

Quote: Mordvin 3

The NKVD exported its archive.

somewhere in my youth I read, gold, money from the state bank, museum valuables, so there can be both

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Silvestr

read gold, money of the state bank, museum values

This is a provocation I read that the ship turned off precisely because of the NKVD archive. Well, something like this.

[Zementbomber]

The mistakes of the Black Sea Fleet command in this story really were over a dozen (although in fact it is not even clear whether there were in the escort of the MO transport and if so, then one or two?) - Vice-Admiral Ivanov- "Oktyabrsky" was that "kivifrukt". But there was no "Beria order".

[Olgovich]

Quote: Silvestr

Beria’s order to return the ship from Yalta to Balaklava- and who dares not to fulfill his order

an incomprehensible and inexplicable attempt to embrace the immense - to download one. the ship already overloaded in Sevastopol, also in balaclava and Yalta ...

because in. Sevastopol there were dozens more, much less valuable ships ....

[Prisoner]

You still cry. Crocodile. You want to say, if the ship had no weapons, these "supermen" would not sink? You, my friend, seem to be one of those who will grow out of "knees from Urengoy". My wife's grandfather died near Kalinin. A seriously wounded man ended up in a hospital, which these Fritzian bastards bombed with the greatest care. What? Red cross on the banners and no air defense. So the bastards took their fun.

[NKT]

On Athenia they were not, but this did not save her.

[Zementbomber]

"Athenia" - went with extinguished running lights. Which, according to the then Conventions governing the rules of the non-military at sea, made it a legitimate target for an unannounced attack by a warship, TKA or submarine.

[NKT]

I read somewhere that the actions of the captain of the submarine violated the London Maritime Agreement, which says that you can only drown a passenger / merchant ship if you “remove” all passengers and ship documents to a safe place.

Germany until the end of the war hid the torpedoing of this ship. If they were “right,” then what was there to hide? Moreover, the captain of the submarine himself told Doenitz that it seemed to him that the ship was patrolling, there was no talk of any navigation lights.

[Zementbomber]

According to the report of the U-30 commander, "the ship followed without navigation lights, on an anti-submarine zigzag and a general course unusual for merchant ships." This is why it was identified as an auxiliary cruiser.
And they hid it - for propaganda reasons. In September 1939 (before the bombing of Warsaw), all sides still pretended that they "intend to wage and are waging a" merciful war "in strict accordance with international law and even more humanely than the current international military law allows." + big politics. Before, EMNIS, September 30 - against ships identified as French (even military) - ships and submarines of the Kriegsmarine were allowed to use weapons only for the purpose of self-defense and protection of other ships flying the German flag.

Generally - a war between any civilized societies is usually not begins as a merciless massacre. The escalation of violence is a process of a certain duration, always. But why go far for examples: ours, too, in April 2014, were still almond-shaped with separatists (just like the separatists were still almond-shaped with ours). And already in August - often each other was not even taken prisoner - they were shot on the spot nafig. And it is "good" if "they just" shot "...

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Unfortunately, in Armenia there were several anti-aircraft guns.

In July 41, the sanitary transports "Adjara" (of the same type as "Armenia") and "Kuban" were sunk, although they met the requirements for hospital ships (in particular, they did not carry weapons). Four 45-mm semi-automatic machines on the "Armenia" appeared after the destruction of the above-named vessels.

German aircraft attacked hospital ships on most of the theater, including and on the Black Sea

[The leader of the Redskins]

4 45 mm k21 and 4 12.7 mm machine guns.
You were banned in Google or you want to change the history of your assumptions? And do not poke me, otherwise it will break.

[kamikaze]

then the Soviet submarine of 1945, February or January, sank the fascist ship GUSTOF in the Baltic Sea, sinking 6000 fascists and another second ship sinking 5000 fascists.

[Revolver]

The Germans are still trying to hang dogs on Marinesko for "Gustlov", they say, a war criminal, but what about the He-111 crew and those who sent it on a mission and directed it to the target? Moreover, "Gustlov" went with an escort of warships (I don't remember the class offhand, but like destroyers), and he himself had several FLAK 88mm on board, which, in case of a successful hit, could sink a submarine, i.e. in fact, it was a warship. Well, the school of scuba diving officers cannot be attributed to the wounded and civilians.

[Olegi1]

And after that, someone dares to reproach Marinesco for Wilhelm Gustlov?

I ought to remind the unwilling "partners" ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Olegi1

I ought to remind the unwilling "partners" ...

The Americans had such a Dudley Walker Morton. He heroically shot survivors from sunken ships. And everything would be fine .... But once the majority of those killed were Indian prisoners of war. Which led to a scandal. However, the command said that those on boats themselves attacked a submarine

[BREAKTHROUGH READY]

I look, the cuckoo has gone completely from the Russophobia liberda.
Attempts to justify themselves in front of the “partners”, putting Nazis and Russian heroes on the same level, cause nothing but contempt. Ugh on you.

[Svarog51]

Buddy wait a bit. The attack was not planned.

[novel66]

and where is the general staff?

[Svarog51]

In the bunker, there is the safest place.

[Zementbomber]

Who "reproaches Marinesco for" Wilhelm Gustlov "?? A legitimate target for an attack, a brilliant success for the KBF. Higt-class worked, in short. And this is the point of view of precisely those whom you disparagingly call "Europs". By the way - the question: Why is not the GSS a drop of Marinesco? (and that this is not a gut) - the first to raise in print were the Swedish sailors. At the height of the cold war ...

[Graz]

By the way, here I look at the photo in the article of the ship and the people on it, somehow I can’t believe that 5 to 10 thousand people and any other evacuated goods fit there

[Vitas]

Quote: Graz

By the way, here I look at the photo in the article of the ship and the people on it, somehow I can’t believe that 5 to 10 thousand people and any other evacuated goods fit there

If you want to live, you’re not getting so bored!

[Peter is not the first]

From this angle from Wikipedia, it looks much larger:

Manufacturer: Baltic Plant
Launched 1928 year
Commissioned 1928 year
5770 ton displacement
Length 107,7 m
Width 15,5 m
Crew 96 people
Passenger capacity 950 people

[AU Ivanov.]

The stretchers with the wounded were erected in Armenia, people stood as if in a crowded tram. If Armenia from Sevastopol immediately went to the shores of the Caucasus, then it would not be sunk - the transition would be night. But the captain was ordered to go to Yalta and pick up high-ranking party leaders. This is with the seriously injured on board when every minute is precious. As a result, Armenia left Yalta during daylight hours and was sunk.

[Sergey S.]

Quote: AS Ivanov.

But the captain was ordered to go to Yalta and pick up high-ranking party leaders. This is with the seriously injured on board when every minute is precious. As a result, Armenia left Yalta during daylight hours and was sunk.

What happened, what happened ...
Calling to Yalta was a mistake.
But what would you do as a fleet commander or a ship commander.
Indeed, in Yalta, the Soviet leaders remained, who, when the Germans appeared, were supposed to be identified first and destroyed.
Destroyed and members of their families.
And there was nowhere to go from Yalta.
The experience of such situations comes with some delay.
But in June 1942 already "Tashkent" will pass by without stopping at the place where the sailors of "Impeccable" and soldiers of the 142nd OSB were killed.
And in October 1943, while trying to save his comrades, the leader "Kharkov", the destroyers "Merciless" and "Capable" were killed. Again, they showed humanity in the war ...
This is a very difficult problem.

I don’t know how I would live if I knew that saving me, I had to abandon families in Yalta with women and children to be destroyed by the Nazis.

[AU Ivanov.]

In the Yalta Bay there were a lot of small-tonnage, but quite seafaring vessels: yachts, fishing boats, various kinds of small bulk carriers and bulk carriers. Remember how the British evacuated from Dunkirk through the English Channel. On everything that floated. For these figures from Yalta, according to the testimony of a surviving NKVD officer, the wounded cabins were cleared. From the wounded !!! Big uncles wanted to sail in comfort.

[Sergey S.]

Quote: AS Ivanov.

Big uncles wanted to sail in comfort.

I think it was not the uncles who arranged it, but the senior assistant of “Armenia” displayed an inhuman initiative.
In this case, this is not the main thing ...

[AU Ivanov.]

Who gave this order to enter and leave Yalta during daylight hours is not clear. Ends in the water. But this is clearly not the initiative of the Armenian crew. The order of the commander of the Black Sea Fleet of Oktyabrsky was in force, banning access to the sea until 19.00, that is, before dark, due to the lack of air cover. It is unlikely that the captain or one of his assistants could take and ignore the order of the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, without pressure from above.

[Sergey S.]

Quote: AU Ivanov.

Who gave this order to enter and leave Yalta during daylight hours is not clear.

This is understandable.
I wrote that for the Yalta people inhumanly freed the cabins from the wounded ...

[New Year day]

Quote: AS Ivanov.

Who gave this order to enter and leave Yalta in the daytime,

call to Yalta was after the order to return to Balaklava. There the NKVD loaded with boxes and the ship sailed to Yalta. After loading, retreat was only possible in the daytime, since there were already Germans in the suburbs of the city.

[mmaxx]

If there was an archive of the NKVD, then the papers there are "Secret" and "Soviet. Secret". It means that a separate place and security have been laid.

[Avior]

In addition, some cargo was loaded in Balaklava, escorted by NKVD officers.

[Zementbomber]

By the way, here I look at the photo in the article of the ship and the people on it, somehow I can’t believe that 5 to 10 thousand people and any other evacuated goods fit there

Well, the LKR "Krasny Kavkaz" somehow took 4700 people on a campaign to Sevastopol. With weapons, equipment and ammunition, moreover.
On the whole 2600-ton sea coastal passenger ferry "Donja Paz", which was lost on the eve of 1988, there were 4399 people.

[anjey]

On November 7, 1941, at 11 a.m., a German torpedo bomber He-25 launched two torpedoes and both hit the target on a ship that had the distinctive signs of a medical vessel. The ship sank literally in 111 minutes, taking to the bottom from five to ten thousand people, the exact number of victims has not yet been established.

It is only according to Mikhalkov that the "good" Germans distribute chocolate to our soldiers from their tanks and bomb ambulances only after the exact hit of the evil Russians in the naked German backside (Citadel) .......

[Mwg]

So that chocolate from the tanks was with amphitamine (standard equipment) and they distributed it not just like that, but to unleash the languages ​​of prisoners and local residents in order to collect information.

[Zementbomber]

hair dryer - not unleashes the tongue. You obviously never used it.

[lopvlad]

on board were archives, museum collections and collections

interesting expedition for museum exhibits will be, or will be left at the bottom.

[Avior]

I think it is unlikely that the paintings have survived for so many years

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Avior

It is unlikely that the paintings have survived for so many years

Ekatirana the second bought a bunch of canvases from the Dutch. Still lying at the bottom, and no one can lift. Our claim, the Dutch (their ship) and the Swedes (sank in their waters). Madhouse, in short.

[Avior]

I did not think that canvases can be stored in sea water for so many years

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Avior

I did not think that canvases can be stored in sea water for so many years

They are packed in tubes and filled with lead. There Van Gogh, and some other famous ones. In the 90s, drivers found the ship. Somewhere in the Baltic.

[Avior]

Frau Maria, 27 paintings, estimated at one and a half billion green papers
If intact, of course
But it seems that now the Finns are claiming them, the place of death used to be Swedish, now it is the waters of Finland and supposedly if they have been lying under water for a hundred years, they consider their own according to the law
One hundred years was in 2017
https://www.google.com/amp/s/tass.ru/v-strane/3690786/amp

I wonder how the story ends

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Avior

I wonder how the story ends

Exactly. Catherine then paid for them.

[Avior]

An important and serious argument, but not an undeniable one
Someone once paid for all the cargo, but the ships and old cargo are raised like that for the benefit of themselves
Many nuances

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Avior

Many nuances

In fact of the matter. You can’t figure it out without a glass.

[Ham]

it’s fun to watch how ukro-bots try to justify the Nazis by any means ....
it’s just turned into some kind of propaganda viper

[Mwg]

The kingdom of heaven to all those who died in that war ...

[Dmitry Zverev]

It is a well-known and verified fact in history that, under certain circumstances, our Western European partners (especially Germans) from respectable, law-abiding citizens turn into wild and ruthless animals without exception.

[Van 16]

It has been known for so long that "a gentleman west of Suez is not responsible for what he does east of Suez"

[Avior]

Sorry, it’s not visible there, you don’t know, this is a poster of what time?

[begemot20091]

[quote = Gammon] it's fun to watch how ukro-bots try to justify the fascists by any means ....
it’s just turned into some kind of propaganda viper
Every time, using the example of the Czechs, I will be these sufferers, tortured by the Holodomor, Stalinist repressions and ... with all their liberal crap I will remind you of traitors, and especially those whom they raise on the shield like the "Prague Spring".
Here I spread again:
why did the Czechs surrender without a fight?

All this is puzzling. There were more than ten thousand Czech pillboxes and forts, and on the Mannerheim Line, for example, there were only a few hundred of them. Their quality was also good - it impressed even Hitler, usually with contempt for the Slavs. Czech tanks clearly outnumbered German ones, aviation was comparable in number, and taking into account Soviet military assistance, it was as if not more numerous. The excellent artillery of the "Skoda" is familiar to our army as well - the Wehrmacht fired at us from it. The USSR also tried small arms of the Czechs the hard way. The Czech ZB-26 machine guns for their high combat qualities, the SS troops preferred the German MG and fought with them. Why did the Czechs not dare to fight, surrendering to the German demands? All these centuries they were not so much an ethnos as an ethnic substrate - next to the Germans who actively absorbed this substrate. The only bad thing in this situation was that for some reason the people with such an undeveloped national feeling were given sovereignty, which they did not really need. What is delivered without a fight is often not appreciated. September 1938 is an excellent example of this kind. The main reason for the surrender of the Czechs was not the Munich Agreement. This reason was their unwillingness to do anything for the sake of their independence.

[Zementbomber]

Here I spread again:
why did the Czechs surrender without a fight?

First you need to eat. And only then "spread".
By the end of September 1938, the "Czech Maginot Line" had approximately 1200 DOS. At the same time, all artillery DOS except for the Tversi Bouda DOS did not have either armored towers or casemate artillery weapons mounted. The date of completion of its construction was determined - as much as 1946 (!!) year.
The rest of your "information" is about the same "level".

[Kronos]

Czech leaders all signed and approved it only in the films the masses of the people will fight against their leadership

[Red Dragon]

Do not forget that about a quarter of the population of Czechoslovakia were Germans. In the Sudeten region, they were under 90 percent. But they are just border ones, and when attacking Germany, who do you think these residents would support?

[Zementbomber]

There, not only the Sudeten Germans (25% of the population) did not burn, to put it mildly, with the desire to fight for their “native” Czechoslovakia. Also Bohemian, Moravian and Slovak (in Bratislava alone there were 120 thousand) Germans, Hungarians (1.2 million for a second) , Poles, Rusyns, Romanians ... And the Slovaks, too, were not very eager to fight - but with great enthusiasm (and for the second time) they separated at the first opportunity. + Czechs, considering themselves "Moravians." Czechoslovakia-1938 - it was such a "patchwork" mini-empire in the manner of Austria-Hungary, from which it emerged in 1918. And just as "strong" ...

[phair]

Second Lieutenant Pavlik fought for 2 hours (until 3 times ordered). They shot in the 43rd. Not all Czechs are eccentric. Ludwig Freedom is an example.

[Zementbomber]

Yes, he was not an eccentric. He surrendered Czechoslovakia without a fight to the troops of the Warsaw Treaty in August 1968. Having more than all the possibilities, it was robust to wash the blood of interventionists. The insignificance ...

[phair]

And the Czechs never fought. Freedom and Pavlik are an exception. Pavlik personally. I don’t take into account the feldsher’s guide frolic on the Trans-Siberian Railway.

[Zementbomber]

In fact, the military history of the Czech Republic is quite epic. Some Hussite wars are worth it!
Well, the Czechoslovak Corps was red on the "Kolchak Front" - not weakly inserted enemas with broken glass.

[phair]

It has its own atmosphere. Transsiberian. There is no maneuver. And the war, as you know, garbage ...

[Zementbomber]

War can be very funny, but that a real war is "garbage" - I would still not he said. In my experience in cr. least.
And the hostilities on the Eastern Front in your Civilian - were completely not only in areas adjacent to the Trans-Siberian Railway.

[bukhach]

And you ... uh, only scoundrels can insult a person who fought against fascism. Forgotten, even the fascists themselves.

[Zementbomber]

The fight against Nazism - not can serve as an excuse for bestial cowardice as a Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of their own country. Even if this fight was successful. "The army - must fight, if possible - win, - and - if necessary - die - it is no longer suitable for anything and is not needed!" (from) Army General Ludwik Freedom - in 1968 betrayed his State and his Nation.

[39GB]

The command of the Black Sea Fleet was not a childish oddity: either they planted mines, it is not clear from whom, they were waiting for the landing force from the sea, or the ambulance transport would be sent without escort and cover. A lot of the Black Sea Fleet medical personnel, wounded, evacuees, and the crew were lost on "Armenia". The figures are more than 5 people, although exactly how many are above, I'm afraid we won't know.

[Phil77]

* Armenia * was accompanied by two boats, from the air it was covered by two I-153 fighters.

[AU Ivanov.]

The naval historian caperang Vladimir Shigin gives the figure of 9000 people.

[Phil77]

The same story as with * Gustlof * figures are approximate. If it is already impossible to accurately determine the number of deaths in peacetime on * Titanic *, then what about these disasters.

[bubalik]

and with * Gustlof * approximate figures

,,, or "Goya"

[Zementbomber]

The naval historian caperang Vladimir Shigin gives the figure of 9000 people.

Otlamp figure. As in many other cases, nobody considered the people on board the "Armenia" even rude.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: 39RUS

then the ambulance will be sent without a convoy and cover

"Armenia" was escorted by two MO-4 boats and a pair of I-153 fighters, but both of them missed the Heinkel attack.

But, having a cover, "Armenia" was automatically deprived of the status of a hospital ship in the legal sense.

Quote: 39RUS

Black Sea Fleet command is not childish

weird, it happened ... But in the place of the captain of "Armenia", what would you do? Remained in Yalta, risking being bombed, and waiting for the advancing Germans, so that they would either capture the ship or shoot it with artillery?
The Germans captured Yalta on November 8, the day after the departure of "Armenia"

[petrol cutter]

And when did you find something? This season must be assumed.
I read for this ship. There, almost by the hour, his actions were sorted out. And the movement. And the actions of the command also understood ...
The final verdict was a dark affair.

[SHURUM -BURUM]

... the ship was discovered by the deep-sea apparatus of the Ministry of Defense off the coast of Crimea, about 18 kilometers from Yalta at a depth of 1500 meters ...
So still looking for a plane? Well, what's the bottom? For a long time, scribblers wrote that there at the bottom there are such terrible deposits of silt and hydrogen sulfide. That's how it smells !!! Crimea will not be !!! But how really?

[petrol cutter]

And, what, to this day have not found something?! .. This is a turn ...
I’ve forgotten even here. And he was sure that everything was discovered and taken out without too much noise.

[Phil77]

No wonder. * The Titanic * sank in 1912, and it was found only in 1985, despite the seemingly known coordinates of the death.

[bubalik]

,,, technology appeared, and found it.

despite the seemingly known coordinates of the death

,, approximate.

[Phil77]

No Sergey! Not everything is so simple! He was searched, objectively!, From the beginning of the 70s. Technologies then allowed it, but did not find it. For? .... the coordinates of the death were different !!!

[bubalik]

The main difficulty was that the place of death was known with very low accuracy - it was about an area of ​​100 kilometers in diameter. Given the fact that the Titanic sank in an area where the depth of the Atlantic is several kilometers, the search for a ship was a very problematic

[Phil77]

Here! Here I am about it! By the way, I read that Mr. Ballard was * taken * to the place of the ship’s death, as the Americans already knew it. In view of the fact that in those parts they were looking for some kind of sunken submarine / here you are cards in hand! You are in these matters special ./, well, stumbled upon him by accident!

[bubalik]

,,I think so , in matters of underwater searches, Konstantin could say something practical.

[Phil77]

The depths are clearly not his! He's a diver, after all.

[bubalik]

,,, knows the principles of searches, or does he have a non-disclosure subscription termless?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: bubalik

or is his non-disclosure subscription unlimited?

Who? At Stirlitz?

[bubalik]

they were looking for some kind of sunken submarine

The vessel R / V Knorr and the Argo apparatus were to carry out a mission to examine the sites of the death of two American nuclear submarines Scorpio and Thresher, which had sunk back in the 1960s.

[Phil77]

Here! I’m saying that in these matters all hope is for you!

[bubalik]

,,, and with Armenia, or intentionally the coordinates of the death were incorrect or what?
The official report on the death of “Armenia” reads: “At 11 hours (November 25, 7) TR“ Armenia ”, guarded by two patrol boats from Yalta to Tuapse with wounded and passengers, was attacked by an enemy torpedo plane. One of the two dropped torpedoes hit the bow of the ship and at 1941 hours it sank at w = 11 degrees 29 minutes. 44 sec., D = 15 g. 5 min. Eight people were rescued, about 34 people died. ",, why so long could not find if the coordinates are known?

[Phil77]

Well, you estimate, the ship sank within 4 minutes, therefore the coordinates are approximate. There was no time to determine them according to the situation! And before that, there was simply no need.

[mmaxx]

We were reckoning. And if the coordinates with an error are even 200 meters, then you’ll be tired of looking under water.

[Sergey Zhikharev]

For a long time, scribblers wrote that there at the bottom there are such terrible deposits of silt and hydrogen sulfide. That's how it smells !!! Crimea will not be !!! But how really?

Manipulation of Consciousness, Kara-Murza

Hydrogen sulfide boom. It is known that a feature of the Black Sea is the presence of a “hydrogen sulfide layer” in it. He was discovered a hundred years ago by a Russian boatswain, smelling a rope lowered to the depths, from which it smelled slightly of rotten eggs. The level of the “hydrogen sulfide layer” fluctuates, sometimes its boundary rises to a depth of only 50 m. In 1927, there were even “sea fires” during a large earthquake, and pillars of flame were observed in the sea in the regions of Sevastopol and Yevpatoriya.
Perestroika in the USSR coincided with another rise in the hydrogen sulfide layer, and glasnost gave newspapers spicy information about the “sea fires” of 1927 (before, when there was no habit of scaring people, this information was not widely published). Convenient conditions for a major boom arose, and he was “untwisted”. Here are examples of hysterical predictions from 1989-1990. only in central newspapers:
Literaturnaya Gazeta: “What will happen if, God forbid, a new earthquake occurs off the Black Sea coast?” Sea fires again? Or one flash, one grand torch? "Hydrogen sulfide is combustible and poisonous ... hundreds of thousands of tons of sulfuric acid will appear in the sky."
“Working platform”: “A small earthquake is enough for hydrogen sulfide to come to the surface of the Black Sea and catch fire - and its coast will turn into a desert.”
“Top Secret”: “There is enough coincidence in time and space ... a sharp decrease in atmospheric pressure and vertical flow. Boiling, water will saturate the air with toxic fumes of combustible gas. Where the deadly cloud will drift - God alone knows. It can cause casualties on the coast, in a matter of seconds it can turn a passenger airliner into a “flying Dutchman” 293: #.
Finally, M.S. Gorbachev himself warned the world about the apocalypse coming from the USSR. He said from the rostrum of the International Global Forum on Environmental Protection and Development for Survival (what is the name of the forum!): “The upper boundary of the hydrogen sulfide layer in the Black Sea over the past decades has risen from a depth of 200 m to 75 m from the surface. Not much else, and through the threshold of the Bosphorus he will go to the Sea of ​​Marmara, Aegean and the Mediterranean. ” This statement was published in Pravda.
Scientists - and oceanologists, and chemists - tried to explain to politicians that all this is ignorant nonsense (they naively thought). Well-known data were published in scientific journals:
1. “Sea fires” of 1927 have nothing to do with hydrogen sulfide. They were observed in places distant from the boundary of the hydrogen sulfide zone for 60-200 km. Their reason is the emergence of methane from a Kryvyi Rih-Yevpatoriya tectonic fault during an earthquake. This is a gas-bearing region, drilling is underway there for gas production, natural gas outlets in this area in the form of “torches” are regularly observed. All this is well known, and the refusal of all major newspapers to publish this scholarly note directly indicates that it was a matter of deliberate misinformation.
2. The maximum concentration of hydrogen sulfide in the water of the Black Sea is 13 mg per liter, which is 1000 times less than necessary so that it can be released from the water in the form of gas. A thousand times! Therefore, there can be no question of any kind of ignition, devastation of the coast and burning of liners. For hundreds of years, people have been using the hydrogen sulphide springs of Matsesta for therapeutic purposes (perhaps even M.S. Gorbachev himself enjoyed it). They have never heard of any explosions and fires, and even the smell of hydrogen sulfide is quite tolerable there. But the hydrogen sulfide content in the waters of Matsesta is hundreds of times higher than in the water of the Black Sea.
There were times when people in mines encountered high-concentration hydrogen sulfide jets. This led to poisoning of people, but explosions, unlike methane, never were and could not be - the threshold explosive concentration of sulfur dioxide in the air is very high.
3. Fatal concentrations of hydrogen sulfide in the air are 670-900 mg per cubic meter. But even at a concentration of 2 mg per cubic meter, the smell of hydrogen sulfide is unbearable. But even if the entire “hydrogen sulfide layer” of the Black Sea is suddenly thrown to the surface by some unknown force, the content of hydrogen sulfide in the air will be many times lower than the level of unbearable smell. So, a thousand times lower than the level dangerous to health. So there can be no talk of poisoning.
4. Mathematical modeling of all conceivable regimes in fluctuations in sea level and atmospheric pressure over the Black Sea, carried out by oceanologists in connection with the statement of M.S. Gorbachev, showed that the flow of hydrogen sulfide into the Sea of ​​Marmara and beyond, with poisoning of western civilization sweet to his heart, absolutely impossible - even if the most powerful of the known tropical cyclones passes over Yalta.
All this was thoroughly known, the hydrogen sulfide anomaly of the Black Sea has been studied for a hundred years by many scientists around the world. When the Soviet press began this boom, a number of authoritative scientists, including academics (!), Turned to newspapers - not one of them undertook to give soothing information. The most popular publication that managed to break into - the journal of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR "Nature", a journal for scientists. But he could not compare with the circulations of Pravda, Literaturnaya Gazeta, Spark of that time, or with the influence of television.

[petrol cutter]

However, a detailed answer! ... Respect! ...
If you do not climb into the wilds and in a nutshell ...
Horrors and spontaneous combustion of the World Cup, hydrogen sulfides periodically scare local people, yes.
Now I don’t remember, somewhere around the end of the eighties, the question was raised very seriously and urgently! I was a kid then. Fifteen years. Not today, tomorrow there will be earthquake, the sea will light up. Alive- envy the dead! It was scary. In fact.
Tolchek or three ... There was a place to be. I personally felt on the fourth floor. Doors staggered ...
However, in my memory, our Khrushchevs did not collapse from something, the sea did not ignite. And I see no reason for further fires. At least "bulls" about him carcasses.

[Sergey Zhikharev]

Thank you.
At first I was going to write simply "the concentration is not the same", and then I decided to look at the original.
I remember after the tsunami in Southeast Asia (December 2004) there was a noise that the tsunami will be on the Black Sea (literally tomorrow or the day after tomorrow), and all cities on the Caucasus coast will be washed away. And then everything died out - maybe even BEFORE the Olympics.

[Zementbomber]

The most popular publication that managed to break into - the journal of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR "Nature", a journal for scientists.

Priroda was not a "journal for scientists". I was in the reading room of every library and every park. The circulation is hundreds of thousands. Although I could not compare with Pravda, of course - yes. But I personally - he was still "an Octobrist - a gallant kid" - began to read. And completely without any accessibility issues. They also awarded the badge of the Society of Book Lovers.

[phair]

Hydrogen sulfide is dissolved at a depth below 50 meters. Do not bzdi, will not explode.

[Zementbomber]

A lot lower.

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Petrol cutter

And when did you find something?

It seems that "Armenia" is being rediscovered by every new generation of Black Sea divers ...
This "discovery" is definitely not the first.
I suppose that upon discovering, they forget to document this and add the exact place to the list of Soyin burials.
Which gives the right to the next expedition to announce a new discovery.

[petrol cutter]

Duck is the thing.
What is there that World Cup ?!
But everything is entangled in mystery and darkness!
During the Second World War, "Armenia" sank. There are no witnesses, no survivors. Nobody knows anything.
You read right there, they bombed in direct visibility from the shore ...
I mean, in the Arctic Ocean, you should not look ...
Immediately - the torpedo bomber beat. But witnesses from the shore say that the bomber hit with a single bomb at the seradinu (this also happens). Steamboat hit in the middle and at the bottom ....

[Avior]

How is it no witnesses? Just as it is. Armenia marched with two boats and two planes

[New Year day]

Quote: Petrol cutter

no survivors.

several people were picked up and delivered to Yalta

[New Year day]

Quote: Petrol cutter

And when did you find something? This season must be assumed.

the ship was found somewhere in the 16th year, but could not identify it.

[faterdom]

The depth is great, of course. The tragedy is huge - one Sevastopol hospital is worth what - all the doctors, medical staff, equipment and all the wounded.
But the following is also curious: Beria, by his personal order, delayed the exit of "Armenia", the Chekists loaded something there, and they themselves set off on the ship, escorting the cargo.
This "something" is still unknown, and is probably of great value.

[petrol cutter]

Yes, yes. It was this version that was blamed. As long as I remember. I have long read ...
It seems that he was waiting for something there, so he had to go out in the afternoon. And here the BAM and the fascist covered one bomb.
Also, the thing is ... Well, how would a fascist fly a little further ...
Or he wouldn’t fly at all ... A motor wouldn’t be a parasite? Nothing would have happened that day.

[faterdom]

It's not the fault ... The point is in it now. And what was it, why did they risk the ship and the evacuees?
Yes, they lost at this risk, but the question remained: what was it?

[AU Ivanov.]

It seems like archives. But the main reason for the ship leaving in the daytime was the call to Yalta to pick up party officials from there. Although in Yalta there were plenty of boats from yachts to fishing vessels. Someone really wanted to swim in comfort.

[Sergey S.]

Quote: faterdom

security officers loaded something there

I think everything is simple - operational documents ... archives ...

[CommanderDIVA]

The NKVD would not until the last keep its archives in that situation, as a rule, such materials were taken out in advance, most likely the NKVD employees were taken

[Sergey S.]

Quote: CommanderDIVA

The NKVD would not until the last keep its archives in that situation, as a rule, such materials were taken out in advance, most likely the NKVD employees were taken

There were definitely documents. Eyewitnesses saw boxes and sacks on the pier.
Employees of the NKVD who were evacuated could be the bosses and their families. These were mainly the leaders of Yalta and other cities and party leaders, as well as their families.
And the NKVD officers themselves remained - these were mainly border guards and operatives, mainly future partisans and underground workers. Their families could also be evacuated.

[New Year day]

Quote: faterdom

This "something" is still unknown, and is probably of great value.

maybe that's why the deep-sea vehicle was dragged to the Black Sea

[fa2998]

Quote: lopvlad

on board were archives, museum collections and collections

interesting expedition for museum exhibits will be, or will be left at the bottom.

Actually this is an underwater burial. We’ll climb into the grave? Let them lie, there’s nothing to disturb the dead.

[petrol cutter]

What can you say ?! The Baltic states have always considered Russia / USSR as occupiers.
The activities of Ukraine me (as an ex-citizen) over the past fifteen years plunged into despondency.
Especially the confrontation South-East / the rest of Ukraine escalated in '13 -14. We had never loved each other before.
In Crimea in '14, this escalated to the point of impossibility. And the Russian Federation supported us. Thank you very much for this.

[Karaul73]

C ... ki German. So many people at once. Eh.

[Gennady Fomkin]

The official report on the death of “Armenia” reads: “At 11 hours (November 25, 7) TR“ Armenia ”, guarded by two patrol boats from Yalta to Tuapse with wounded and passengers, was attacked by an enemy torpedo plane. One of the two dropped torpedoes hit the bow of the ship and at 1941 hours it sank at w = 11 degrees 29 minutes. 44 sec., D = 15 gr. 5 min. Eight people were rescued, about 34 people died. "

[Valter1364]

Everlasting memory!

[Zementbomber]

8 units on board anti-aircraft weapons and the protection of combat boats - automatically excluded the status of "ambulance transport" for "Armenia".

[sagitch]

part of the party leadership of Crimea

on the evening of November 6, "Armenia" entered the outer raid of Balaklava to take NKVD officers on board

So many years have passed! Or did the enemy know something about the passengers? And ..., I would not want to, but ... did someone decide to hide behind the hospital? ...

[petrol cutter]

No, as far as I remember, the main sorrows began much later than Baba Klava. Namely, in the area of ​​Yalta.
There they waited / accepted something ...
And honestly, I don’t believe in a mega conspiracy against the ship.
Inclined to think, a coincidence has happened.
That which did not come out at night is certainly not right.
Again ... We were not there at that moment either.
The ship commander knows better. Challenge his actions ...
God forbid me to be in his place.

[cniza]

The German torpedo bomber He-111 fired two torpedoes on the ship, which had the distinctive signs of a medical vessel, and both hit the target. The ship sank literally in 4 minutes, taking to the bottom from five to ten thousand people, the exact number of victims has not yet been established.

This is their whole shakalya essence ...

[agoran]

Hm. The ship entered the port, loading, including the NKVD and cargo.
It is possible that not only values ​​but also archives, which were much more important.
Well, the attack of a single torpedo bomber (not a pair, not a troika, without cover) leads to certain thoughts.

[Phil77]

Pure water accident. 1941, the complete domination of German aviation in the air.

[agoran]

Well, hz I do not say anything, but what I saw in the museum, there the torpedoes correspond to a standard size of 4 Fab 250s and fly with a couple of these for free hunting on those types of comrades, well, I don’t think that the Germans were fools.
Explicitly pointed.

[Phil77]

A pair of our fighters patrolled at an altitude of about 3000 meters, as they were mostly afraid of dive bombers. Well, the guys missed a low-flying torpedo bomber, and a couple of watchdogs unjustifiably went far ahead. Such an ambush happened! By the way, in February of this year there was an article about this disaster on the VO. And the article and discussion were quite good!

[agoran]

Seriously?
Ie one torpedo bomber (read the target) flew without cover?
Hmm, Goering at his Communist Party in Lertz ate bread in vain.

[Phil77]

Well, why not? Free hunting. Yes, and it was 41 years old on the calendar, things were going well at that time. Heinkel 111 is hardly a target.

[agoran]

Well, not a fact. Bomb load of 1500 kg., Well, or a couple of torpedoes.
Of the defensive 3 7,92 MG-15, the crew of 4 people, well, obviously not Stratofortress.

[Phil77]

Lada! Then we attribute this situation to the self-confidence of the Germans and .... I repeat, in the fall of 1941, which generated this self-confidence!

[agoran]

If you will, I'll take a little action.
In Crimea, there was a large diaspora of Germans, even during the 1st MB, spies and saboteurs were caught, I do not go into history, read it yourself.
So, here I am inclined to the idea that here too there was an obvious aiming at the target.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: agoran

In Crimea there was a large diaspora of Germans

There were Tatars. I read the memoirs of the commander of the Crimean underground, the Tatars and the Germans were very friends.

[Zementbomber]

Well no. You give the characteristics of the He.111 era of the beginning of the War in Spain. In 1941, it was already a pretty different airplane.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: agoran

Well, hz I do not say anything, but what I saw in the museum, there the torpedoes correspond to a standard size of 4 Fab 250s and fly with a couple of these for free hunting on those types of comrades, well, I don’t think that the Germans were fools.
Explicitly pointed.

Quote: agoran

Seriously?
Ie one torpedo bomber (read the target) flew without cover?

It was not uncommon to fly solo Condors (they were even called the scourge of the Atlantic) Focke-Wulf Fw 200. This is a hefty 4-engine car. Could attack the target itself, if it seemed too tough, or else circled over a convoy discovered, constantly transmitting coordinates, to submarines, and directing aircraft (conceived - of its own brothers). Convoys did not have air cover, and Condors acted at the beginning of World War II with almost impunity.
In the Black Sea, German dominance was overwhelming.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: agoran

Well, the attack of a single torpedo bomber (not a pair, not a troika, without cover) leads to certain thoughts

Free hunting. It was practiced not only by fighters, but also by pilots of bombers and torpedo bombers.
In addition, there was especially nobody to fear - Luftwaffe aircraft dominated the sky. Meet the Soviet fighters - the probability is very small.

[Pvi1206]

In war as in war ... moral standards do not apply ...
Napoleon’s fighters during the campaign to Moscow were offended by Russian men who fenced not according to the rules adopted in Europe ... but simply deafened on the head ...

[Emphasis]

In fact, a great day for the repose of many people !!! Land they rest in peace.
And about the anti-aircraft guns, on the one hand it seems like yes, with them the ship is no longer civilian and this is a fact.
But one must look at the circumstances. First of all, the plane was alone. This means that there was probably no preliminary aerial reconnaissance and the plane flew to torpedo the ship. It is unlikely that the pilot would make a preliminary flight, then again went in for torpedoing. With a high degree of probability, we can say that they deliberately bombed.
The only option could be that he was fired by the same anti-aircraft guns and went on the attack. Then the anti-aircraft gunners themselves signed a sentence.
But as for me, it is nevertheless closer to the truth the first option, in which the ship was sunk consciously.
Be that as it may, this is a great event, a day of justice and tranquility !!!

[bubalik]

,,, in early August, the ship was re-equipped for transporting the wounded from Odessa, changing its status and painted in a spherical color, traditional for a warship. On the vessel were installed 4x45mm 21K universal guns and four 12,7mm machine guns. Since August 10, 1941 it’s already incorrect to call “Armenia” a ship, it’s a ship that was part of the Black Sea Fleet, because he, in addition to weapons, receives a fully military command.
,,, from the point of view of shipbuilding, it is impossible to accommodate 5 thousand people on board the “Armenia”. This is a very large quantity. An analysis of the transportation of the same type of transport "Abkhazia" and "Georgia" shows that the maximum number of personnel transported by these vehicles at a time never exceeded 2,7 thousand people. Calculations of the capacity for these ships show that when transporting such a number of passengers, the personnel had to be placed on the upper deck while standing, and in office space sitting on the floor. At the same time, at least 4 people were supposed to sit on each stationary bed, and the hanging beds should be removed, i.e. transportation of the wounded was excluded.

[bubalik]

,,, traditionally, the drowning of “Armenia” is attributed to group II./KG26, its 6th squadron (12 aircraft) was based at the Buzeau airfield west of Galati, in Romania, from where this squadron operated on communications in the Odessa region.
Theoretically, her planes could reach Yalta, the distance from the airfield to Yalta is about 700 km, the radius of this aircraft, 800-900 km (flight range 1950 km). But there is one “but”: since October 19, 1941. Squadron aircraft did not, not a single sortie.
,,, the Black Sea Fleet aviation could not ensure the passage of the vessel, especially since the documents mention I-153, which is also strange, because the time spent by airplanes in the air was limited, especially considering the need to return to Sevastopol.

So the questions are full.

[Zementbomber]

the time spent by airplanes in the air was limited, especially considering the need to return to Sevastopol.

They could be based not on Sevas. At that time, they still had the entire Kerch Peninsula east of the Ak-Monai border.

[Zementbomber]

,,, from the point of view of shipbuilding, it is impossible to accommodate 5 thousand people on board the “Armenia”.

At half the size of Donne Paz, there were over 400 people. And not refugees, but commercial passengers.

[Zementbomber]

FRAUD - should be "over 4000 people."

[Ravil_Asnafovich]

Marinesco, hero of the Soviet Union.

[Ros 56]

So invoice Grandma Merkel for payment taking into account the accrued interest and convict for destruction SANITARY vessel.

[Zementbomber]

Yes, no it, nafig, was not "sanitary". See discussion. The FRG government will send it far. And it will be right for 146%.

[Sardanapalus]

And on November 7th, the 41st at 23.00 was light?

[rotfuks]

Other sources write that the attack on "Armenia" was two torpedo bombers. ……… The first target was spotted by a pair of German torpedo bombers Heinkel He-111. Our fighters considered the diving bombers of the Yu-87 to be the main danger, therefore they patrolled high and did not notice low-flying vehicles. The boats were ahead and also missed the attack. The overloaded ship could not leave in time for the anti-torpedo zigzag. Later, during interrogations, the katerniki testified that two torpedoes of the Heinkel’s lead passed by and exploded in the coastal cliffs. The second came from the shore, on a shaver, tightening the crests of the waves with screws. The torpedo hit the bow compartment, "Armenia" sank literally in a matter of minutes ... ... ..

https://svpressa.ru/post/article/263675/?utm_source=warfiles.ru

[Andrey VOV]

Quote: Zementbomber

War can be very funny, but that a real war is "garbage" - I would still not he said. In my experience in cr. least.
And the hostilities on the Eastern Front in your Civilian - were completely not only in areas adjacent to the Trans-Siberian Railway.

And what experience and where, I want to ask?

[Andrey VOV]

And on whose side?

[Andrey VOV]

A polygamist, and even an enemy ... Evano as

[Zementbomber]

What, nafig, "polygamist" ?? I have only one wife. The fourth is already true. But there are girls in common with his wife, yes.
Well, yes - I am the enemy of the "Russian World". And so are my Girls. For four oaths - as "some" deputy. com. your fleets - they are not used to accepting. It's called Soldier's Honor, you know.

[Andrey VOV]

Not everyone took 4 oaths and for individual individuals conclusions should not be made at all

[Zementbomber]

Of course. If the "oath of office" were some kind of coastal drop or even capraz, and the episode was dated by the 90s - it would not be worth attaching any importance to this. But this is the deputy. commanders in vice-admiral ranks, appointed after 2014. What characterizes your attitude to the like, ahem ... "comrades". cops (and even security officers) are also far from all trashy. But the cops and security officers are judged by the "most prominent representatives" of these estates. Undoubtedly - this is unfair and even offensive in relation to those to whom Honor - not empty sound. But these are the immutable laws of the formation of public perception. "one black sheep - spoils the whole herd"- This is a saying, however, of those times when neither Russia nor Ukraine elementarily existed.

[bukhach]

Well, if your girls are against the end of the Russian world, he will not survive this, will collapse.

[Zementbomber]

And then! But seriously - sarcasm-humor - appreciated. Plus - put it. But, of course, everyone understands perfectly well that the fate of the "Russian Mir Project" does not depend on individuals. It does not even depend on Russia or Russian society as a whole, or even more so on Ukraine. The fate of this project - like many others on our Beautiful Planet - is decided by the consensus opinion of those who "own all the riches of the Earth and the Earth itself."

[bukhach]

Do you seriously believe in the World Government, or rather, a global conspiracy conspiracy? The fate of any state formation depends solely on its citizens, to what extent they are able to put the interests of the Motherland above their own, if on the contrary, it is a cover, and the opinion of those who "owns" plays only a certain role, nothing more.

[Zementbomber]

No, I do not believe in the existence of a World Government. Moreover, I am of the opinion that such a government cannot be created in principle, at least until Mankind begins to colonize Mars on a large-scale or enters into an exchange of resources with extraterrestrial civilization.
But the World Conspiracy exists. And not alone. But all such "conspiracies" are nothing more than attempts to "fish in the troubled waters of the general civilization crisis."
Nevertheless, the phenomenon of "world elites" does exist. And if a stable, broad and active consensus on some issue develops among these elites, no state and no society can successfully and long-term resist them.
PS In the course of a general nuclear war - "the fate of the state formation" will also "depend exclusively on its citizens"? Maybe - all the same from the used megatonnage and other operational factors? (I do not consider VOYAV essentially probable - this is just an illustration of the obvious absurdity of your corresponding thesis)

[tank64rus]

And after that, someone else is trying to convict Marinesco for the sinking of William Gustav

[Zementbomber]

Well, who is Marinesco "condemning"? Even NATO members write and say - it was an outstanding success of the Baltic Fleet. Ranked in the Top 5 WWII Submarine Attacks.

[Greenwood]

What a shame that Mir bathyscaphes are no longer used, and their operators have grown old. I think it will be problematic to explore the vessel at such depth without them.

[Olegi1]

Quote: Zementbomber

Who "reproaches Marinesco for" Wilhelm Gustlov "?? A legitimate target for an attack, a brilliant success for the KBF. Higt-class worked, in short. And this is the point of view of precisely those whom you disparagingly call "Europs". By the way - the question: Why is not the GSS a drop of Marinesco? (and that this is not a gut) - the first to raise in print were the Swedish sailors. At the height of the cold war ...

Exactly so, a brilliant attack on a legitimate target, unlike Armenia, which no one talks about there. I’m trying to say that his actions are trying to present as barbarism, in contrast to the actions of the Nazis, who are in every possible way justified in the gerop at this time. About Marinesko - Yandex to the rescue, a difficult person was with a difficult fate. But I would give the Hero of Russia, definitely.