Russian machine gun of the times of the First World War

When it comes to automatic weapons, then primarily the topic of the Kalashnikov assault rifle is usually raised. But were there machines during the First World War? - This question is not always answered by a person who is not deeply familiar with history weapons. The historian Andrei Ulanov and the expert on historical weapons Nikolay Sobolev help to answer this question.

The Kalashnikov channel on YouTube talks about an interesting weapon that was used more than a hundred years ago. This is an automatic machine of the Fedorov system of the 1916 model.

It is noted that the development of automatic small arms in Russia has been going on since the end of the XNUMXth century. About five different versions of machines were tested in the early years of the last century - before the First World War. As a result, it turned out that the so-called three-line cartridge for automatic weapons is not a suitable ammunition. The trend was aimed at reducing the caliber and overall power of the cartridge. And this trend was coming from abroad.

The video on the Kalashnikov channel tells about the features of the Russian automatic machine of the Fedorov system, about which fronts of the war were used in combat operations, about the manufacturers of cartridges for it and other interesting historical and weapon details.

Comments

[Pavel57]

Can I shoot from anywhere?

[figwam]

Quote: Pavel57

Can I shoot from anywhere?

Where to get such a rarity and cartridges for it? I think if there are living samples, then they are of historical value and cost a lot of money.

[Trevis]

And I would shoot)

[Lexus]

Where to get such a rarity and cartridges for it? I think if there are living samples, then they are of historical value and cost a lot of money

A total of about 3 units were produced. The machine gun even participated in the Great Patriotic War - it was removed from storage and entered the service of engineer-sapper units in assault units. See photo

I do not know how many samples have survived to this day, but just a little.
There are no problems with cartridges (6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka) - they are produced in small quantities to this day.

[figwam]

Quote: lexus

The machine gun even participated in the Great Patriotic War

This is a photo from a Finnish, sitting on a blown up Finnish bunker.

Quote: lexus

With cartridges (6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka) no problems

I have not seen such cartridges on sale.

[Lexus]

This is a photo from a Finnish, sitting on a blown up Finnish bunker.

Yes you are right.
By the way, on the Internet there is an interesting photo of a walrus hunter

[figwam]

There is even a short shooting video for 12 min 22 sec.

[Lexus]

Sergey, thanks for the video! Awesome Awareness and Insight
I do not have enough perseverance to watch a long documentary, and over time I often won't run away. Continuing the topic, I also rummaged in various sources, I found that, yes, they again entered the equipment in the Winter War. And the latest evidence of use is associated with it. But! The units to which they entered were not disbanded, and not storage, which would have been documented, the "trunks" were not returned. It is unlikely that the Finns could have "infected" all of them, and then it was also hardly possible to irrevocably lose all samples. The specificity and period of application were not conducive. This means that they were shooting in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War, the times were just catastrophic, and therefore there were no documents left. Or maybe ... much will remain a mystery to us. Alas

[figwam]

Quote: lexus

So, they shot in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War,

Yes, most likely they shot, near Moscow the militia was given everything that was in the warehouses, and the cartridges were still the same.

[Lexus]

Yes, most likely they shot, near Moscow the militia was given everything that was in the warehouses, and the cartridges were still the same.

"Food" for several articles for VO with a description of the history of their appearance there: "canned food" taken out of service, tsarist SOS purchases, "humanitarian aid" from the invaders, trophies for more than half a century. A topic that still needs to be revealed and disclosed.

[figwam]

Oh, there are our Berdan rifles and the Japanese Arisaki and Czech Mausers and the Austro-Hungarian Manlicher and French Lebel and each with its own cartridge in a limited amount, it was not easy then.

[Lexus]

If memory serves, besides the domestic Berdan, there were even such rarities: Gra, Gra-Kropacheka and Vetterli-Vitali. Not to mention the "little boys" from shooting clubs and hunting rifles.

[figwam]

Quite right, and even American hard drives under our patron, and with the machine guns there was the same vinaigrette.

[Pedrodepackes]

Quote: lexus

The machine gun even participated in the Great Patriotic War - it was removed from storage and entered the service of engineer-sapper units in assault units.

Well, actually in other sources, the signature for this photo is:

This is what the Engineers of the Engineering Base looked like in the winter of 1940.

why the Second World War, why run with such a stick when there were PPSh and PPD, the ideal weapon for the assault at that time, in fact, PP for this purpose were designed.

[Catfish]

This is a photo of our engineering and sabotage reconnaissance group on the ruins of the 1940 Mannerheim bunker line. In order to oppose something to the Finnish Suomi, they were really withdrawn from long-term storage and transferred to specialists. And PPD, if you remember, by order of Kulik were removed from army units to warehouses as "police weapons". True, after the winter war with Finland, they were returned to the troops, so Fedorov's assault rifles were hardly used in the Second World War.

[Amateur]

This is an automatic machine of the Fedorov system of the 1916 model.

In the workshops of the Gun Range of the Officer Rifle School, Fedorov engaged in the conversion of his system into a machine gun (the name of the machine appeared later) (Wiki)

[Strashila]

I liked the phrase "the license for the production of the Arisaka cartridge was acquired", it turns out that in Russia this cartridge can be produced and therefore design weapons for it.

[mat-vey]

So Fedorov was engaged in setting up production at the Sestroretsk plant. Therefore, he knew the characteristics like no one else.

[sterx20072]

The armament consisted of more than 250 thousand Arisak rifles, and it seems that Sestroetsk established the production of cartridges.

[John22]

According to information from Ulanov, at the Sestroretsk factory production of 6,5 x 50 mm Arisak cartridges was established. THOSE. technology allowed to produce a bezelless sleeve. It is unclear then why, after 1945, the production of 7,62x54 cartridges with a collarless sleeve was not established in the USSR - after all, all weapons were changed (and they began to produce 7,62x39 cartridge)?

[tank64rus]

General Fedorov is the founder of the Russian school of small arms of the 20th century.

[KCA]

And Nikolashka killed an assault rifle, said that it would hurt a lot of cartridges ...

[Qwertyarion]

Quote: KCA

And Nikolashka killed an assault rifle, said that it would hurt a lot of cartridges ...

He was a man of error ...

[Senior seaman]

The machine gun was "stabbed" by a non-technological design and a non-standard cartridge.
Which completely does not detract from the merits of Vladimir Grigorievich.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: KCA

And Nikolashka killed an assault rifle, said that it would hurt a lot of cartridges ...

Well, I don’t know, I don’t know ... I did, or I didn’t! It should be borne in mind that automatic small arms were a novelty in WW1 ... they didn't have time to figure out a lot! And what does "Nikolashka" have to do with it, when before WW1 and during the "world war" were the development of automatic weapons by many Russian gunsmiths? And on orders from the military department! Many of the well-known Soviet designers (and, perhaps, almost all!) Started just then ... Fedorov did not immediately start working on a 6,56 mm assault rifle ... at first there were self-loading rifles chambered for (7,62, 54 x 6,5R) mm; but before the war he created a "machine gun" chambered for 57 x 6,5 mm of his own design ... and by order of the same "military department"! Yes, in Russia the "topic of changing the caliber" was considered! The plans included an order for a very large number of Fedorov's "automatic machines" ... The war and the "underdeveloped" industry of the Russian Empire prevented us! The military industry could not cope with orders! Under these conditions, Fedorov was forced to "recycle" his weapon under the Japanese cartridge (50 x 1SR) mm! In WW1928, a rifle company was formed, armed with "Fedorov assault rifles ... an order was made for an even larger number of weapons ... the revolution prevented ... During the civil war, Fedorov" assault rifles "were produced at the Kovrov plant for the Red Army ... these weapons were used to equip individual companies within larger subunits. ”The“ Moscow ”regiment had“ submachine guns ”in service until 6,5. The last mention of the combat use of Fedorov’s“ machine gun ”refers to the period of the“ Soviet-Finnish ”war. Fyodorov designed XNUMX-mm machine guns for various purposes, so don't touch Nikolashka!

[zadorin1974]

Good time, Vladimir! It seems that you have to agree on Nikolai’s account, his direct fault in the insufficient filling of the army’s automatic weapons in the initial period of the WWII (we will also include shell hunger) .NO !!! He was weak-hearted and suspicious, trusted his too much uncles.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: zadorin1974

He was weak-hearted and suspicious, trusted his uncles too much.

I won't argue here! I "just" wanted to say that not all the troubles of Russia "Nikolashka" personally took part in! "Underdeveloped! Industry; incompetence, corruption of state officials, military leadership ... served in many respects to the collapse of the Russian Empire, the" ruling "state ideology ...

[Andrzej k]

If World War I began in a year or two, the development of small arms would be much faster.

Fedorov's machine for original ammunition will establish a global trend, as later StG-43

[32363]

somehow this machine appeared interestingly, like a hedgehog out of fog.
the Germans made such developments more logical, first one model Mauser M1910 self-loading rifle, then its modernization selbstladegewehr M 1915, then M1916 is surprisingly similar to the Fedorov assault rifle.

[mark1]

Quote: 32363

M1916 is surprisingly similar to the Fedorov assault rifle.

Well, if only the shape of the store.

[mat-vey]

"Well, if only the form of the store." - so to speak, this is a classic of design specialists.

[mark1]

And experts on the type of automation and the method of locking the shutter, what will they say?

[mat-vey]

Fedorov - automatic equipment due to the recoil of the barrel with a short stroke with lever locking, Mauser - had automatic equipment based on a half-free shutter with braking with a pair of swinging levers. Just one to one.

[mark1]

Quote: mat-vey

with lever locking

Where did you find leverage at Fedorov ?! You are very mistaken - believe me.
At least look at the pictures.

[mat-vey]

Well, a lever accelerator with two rotary maggots ... it seems to be?

[mark1]

No, it’s not like it, only if they are swinging and symmetrically arranged.

[mat-vey]

So I'm talking about the same that only shops and similar ....

[mark1]

Maybe the DP-27 inspired you? Fedorov’s locking is carried out by combat larvae.

[mat-vey]

So the DP like a gas piston ..

[mark1]

And the Mauser has a semi-free shutter, but this didn’t stop you, however.

[mat-vey]

what didn’t hurt?

[mark1]

Compare weapons with different automation schemes and locking methods.

[mat-vey]

And why can’t you compare? Just as a result of the comparison, the difference is visible ... it's like under different nicknames, like people are different ..

[mat-vey]

I laughed so much - someone didn’t like that DP had a gas piston and that mark1 had confused me with someone ..

[figwam]

Dismantling on the foreign.

[figwam]

Mauser 1916, apparently different designs, from the word completely.

[Moore]

Translation burns with napalm.
... if you want to download this magazine with a stripper ...

[Demagogue]

Quote: figvam

Quote: Pavel57

Can I shoot from anywhere?

Where to get such a rarity and cartridges for it?

In xnumx?

[Pavel57]

Would a replica under 5,56 x 39 be popular?