Military Review

"Assy" of the Third Reich. The phenomenon of huge personal accounts

474

Dedicated to the 75th anniversary of the Great Victory



foreword


I have been fond of since childhood history aviation. And this is already more than 60 years. During this time, I read a huge number of books, memoirs, magazines, articles, websites, reviewed a large number of chronicles and documentaries. I talked with veterans of the Great Patriotic War and with aviators of the 60-90s of the last century. As a passenger, he flew many times on almost all types of Aeroflot passenger planes of the 60-90s - from the Kuban, Crimea, south and west of Ukraine, the Baltic states and Leningrad to Vladivostok and Sakhalin. He lived half his life next to a large military airfield in the town of military aviators. He himself worked at an airline as a technologist and a leading equipment engineer (not for long, unfortunately, in the 90s).

For the past thirty years, I have been very interested in the so-called phenomenon of “huge personal accounts” and “unsurpassed highest skill” by expert experts of the Luftwaffe. At first, when he first found out about it, he was amazed. Then, after reading the data of the best experts, doubts arose, which, after studying the activities of German aces, increased significantly.

Today, when I am quite familiar with this topic, I can judge who the German aces and the best German expert experts were in fact and how they fought.

Many people wrote about this, including Soviet pilots, WWII veterans in their memoirs, such famous Soviet and Russian historians as Isaev, Mukhin, Bakursky, Bodrikhin, Smyslov, Krivosheev, Zhukov, Drabkin, Zhirokhov, Kornyukhin, Morozov, Khazanov , Bear and less well-known aviation experts in Runet. They wrote quite convincingly, bringing a significant amount of supporting documents, materials, facts. But everyone, in my opinion, considered the problem somehow incompletely, partially, some separate points. I rethought everything and decided to cover the topic comprehensively, as broadly as possible, more fully, but at the same time quite briefly, without going into lengthy arguments and proofs. For this, I deliberately do not cite facts and materials confirming my words: their introduction will turn a small article into a book, and my theses, although they will become more convincing, will lose their brevity and turn into something bulky, and the main advantage of the article (relative brevity) will be hopelessly lost. If desired, any honest, objective, attentive and thinking person himself can quite easily find confirmation in my memoirs, historical literature and the Internet and make sure of their correctness.

An article was written not for a narrow circle of sophisticated historians and experts in aviation (they know everything themselves), but for a wide circle of aviation enthusiasts, primarily for ambitious amateurs and "experts" of aviation such as the "Kolya boy" who thoughtlessly swallow the "real", " truthful "information from the opus of the popularizers of" honest "memoirs and" grandiose "feats" of "heroes" - experts of the Third Reich: illiterate translator Zefirov, anti-Russophobe Rezun-Suvorov, Belarusian Taras and Beshanov, those "historians" who are hiding under pseudo Nimami Degtev (very accurate for his "creativity"), Bazhenov (new storyteller?), Teeth, Sokolov and Slavin. It should also be noted the scandalous film of an independent "researcher" Zakharov.

The article, of course, is not dogma, not the ultimate truth. I would be very grateful to knowledgeable and cultured people for polite, friendly and significant comments and additions in fact, based on reliable information and facts.

Not aces, but experts


At the beginning of World War II, the air forces of all countries of the world called an upscale pilot who perfectly knew the fighter, the methods of air combat and had at least five enemy aircraft shot down. It was an honorable, but not an official title. The Germans during the war constantly raised the standard for the title of ace. After the attack on the USSR, the beginning of World War II and the initial German success, the ace on the Eastern Front began to be called a fighter pilot, who first had 10, then 20 or more victories. But the Germans did not call their most successful aces as aces. The German ace, having on his account the number of victories exceeding the unofficial standard and awarded the Knight's Cross, was called an expert.

So what confirms and disproves the phenomenon of “huge personal accounts” and “unsurpassed excellence” of German experts? And what was the difference between German aces and Soviet pilots?

CONS FOR:

1. Significant combat experience of the Luftwaffe at the beginning of World War II.

2. Very good organization and coherence of the Luftwaffe (especially in the first half of the Second World War).

3. Continuous combat activity throughout the war of German air units with constant replenishment of well (before and in the first half of the Second World War) trained pilots with a large raid and rifle training. Until the middle of the war, the air units of the Red Army of the Red Army went to the rear for reformation and retraining, and were replenished in the first half of the war with poorly trained pilots.

4. The effective maneuverable flexible use of German aviation, the constant transfer and concentration of it in the areas of active operations of the ground forces to create local numerical superiority of aviation in order to gain air supremacy for the successful operations of the ground forces (almost the entire Great Patriotic War).

5. Many targets (enemy aircraft) throughout the Second World War.

6. The strategy of the German fighters is different than the enemy’s: aggressive, offensive, aimed at gaining air supremacy and destroying the maximum number of enemy aircraft — without strict binding and responsibility for bombers, ground troops and objects (almost the entire war).

7. In the first half of the Second World War, other than the enemy’s advanced tactics of German fighter aviation actions (not 3 units, like the Red Army Air Force at the beginning of the war, but 4 fighters = 2 pairs; rational methods for building a flight group and conducting combat with minimal risk) .

8. Excellent equipment, airplanes, radio communications (especially in the first half of the Second World War).

9. More intense than most Soviet pilots, the activities of German fighter pilots (up to 6 sorties a day for almost the entire war).

10. Experts are a small elite group that everyone else worked for. These were mainly commanders: squadrons (air divisions), groups (air regiment), staffel (squadrons), less often - a svarma (link).

11. The experts acted solely and exclusively by the “free hunting” method, usually by the four (apart from the others + 3 escort = 2 pairs), flying apart and significantly higher. Other pilots fought stripping before the bombers raid, guarded the bombers, and performed other routine tasks. And the experts just shot down.

12. The main and favorite method of expert attack, perfected to perfection, is a “falcon strike”: diving from a great height (usually from the side of the sun or from behind a cloud) at maximum speed with a powerful blow - in one volley from all trunks from a minimum distance - rapid departure at high speed again to a height with evasion from a maneuverable viscous battle (hit and shot down, did not shoot down - ran away) to again take a convenient position for the next attack.

13. The favorite and main prey of German aces is single, stray, crashed, extreme, terminal aircraft (preferably transporters or bombers) of newcomers, wounded or weak pilots. But not strong and experienced opponents, especially aces!

14. German commanders usually appropriated and recorded for themselves those shot down by the entire flight group, sometimes - shot down by their individual subordinates (by agreement). What was not accepted among pilots of the anti-Hitler coalition and Soviet pilots.

CONS OF CONS:

1. None of the surviving German experts have intelligible reliable and complete documents (flight books) confirming ALL of their sorties, fights and victories (no one showed them!). Which is very strange: everyone knows about German punctuality. But Soviet pilots could confirm with irrefutable evidence and documents every shot down plane! Moreover, many Soviet pilots claimed that they did not count part of their victories for various reasons.

2. None of the German aces in his memoirs convincingly confirmed or described all of their sorties, battles and victories: all the memoirs of German pilots are slurred, piecewise science fiction on the theme of air war, sometimes interesting with picturesque details and pictures of everyday life. And the memory of Soviet pilots was much better than German: in their memoirs (even heavily trimmed and adjusted by censorship), they clearly and convincingly described places, circumstances and details of their sorties, battles and victories!

3. The number of sorties and fights that some experts have indicated is highly doubtful. No, of course, they fought continuously, intensively and fairly productively. But ask those who have flown and are flying: is it possible to complete 2-3 sorties with many battles almost every day for 3-4 years? (Again, injuries, a hospital, an illness, a rest home - albeit short-term - holidays to Germany ... And the weather for all these 2-3 years, of course, was not - especially in autumn and winter - every day flying, which should double , triple the number of flights in the following flight days to achieve the stated result ...) they will answer you that this is possible only theoretically! That is, both the sorties and fights of these experts were probably less. More, of course, than the Soviet pilots, but not the huge amount that they recorded for themselves.

4. With careful documentary verification, it turned out that there were simply not many German “victories”, nor were there so many planes shot down by the Germans in certain areas. The most famous examples are: “The Battle of Britain” (the Germans claimed 3050 victories, and confirmed - about 1000), in the Kuban (2280 shot down declared, and confirmed - 750).

5. The record of the German “victories” was simple and did not require the obligatory (as with Soviet pilots) confirmation of the ground forces and the presentation of the wreckage of a downed plane. A questionnaire of 21 points (with confirmation of a partner and members of his flight group!) Was filled out formally, easily and without difficulty, which made it possible to record in the “victory” as soon as it hit the target, the plane hit (according to the shots of the photo machine gun), and generally mythical “victories” ". Moreover, the “victories” of the “hero” were confirmed by his sole signature by his commanders (groups, squadrons), very interested in increasing the authority and fame of their unit. Usually they did it purely formally.

6. German propaganda not only loudly praised the German “victories” and the “heroes” themselves (including the pilots), but also pushed them to “records”, which also encouraged the German command, which looked indulgently through the fingers at the doubtfulness of many “ victories ”experts and easily claimed them.

7. There was a “cervical disease” among German experts: a rapid increase in the number of “victories” on the eve of reaching the anniversary figure and the mandatory follow-up award hung on the neck.

8. Flying German commanders usually always appropriated and recorded for themselves all those shot down by their group, and often shot down by subordinates (by agreement with them) with a promise of further benefits and promotions.

9. Experts (like all German fighter pilots) have always evaded and avoided fighting with an equal and - especially - superior enemy in numbers and skill.

10. All German experts (with the rare exception) repeatedly lost their way. Even the best experts went astray repeatedly: No. 1, Hartman, - 14 times, No. 2, Barghorn, - 9 times, No. 7, Rudorffer, - 16 times, No. 8, Rem, - 18 times, No. 15, Lippert, - 15 times, No. 34, Dupman, - 19 times. And the most vaunted and titled pilot of the Third Reich, dive Rudel, is already 32 times, wounded several times, his right leg was amputated! At the same time, Kozhedub and most famous Soviet aces have never been shot down!

11. More than half of the German aces died in general, and 2/3 of them died on the German-Soviet, Eastern Front.

12. The most famous and successful German fighter squadron, JG54 “Green Heart” (“Grünherz”), began combat operations in the USSR by 112 pilots, and only 4 of the original 112 ended the war (only every 24 survived, 108 died) with casualties 2135 aircraft (Soviet pilots destroyed more than 19 squadrons of the Gruherts squadron!). And this is the best Luftwaffe fighter squadron! What can we say about the rest ...

13. But the main and most significant argument “against” is the fabulous performance and the fantastically huge number of “victories” of German experts for a flight, a day, several days, a month and several months in a row. No, of course, a high-class ace is able, under favorable conditions, to shoot down a large, record number of enemy planes both in a single departure and in total for a day and for some period of active battles, to set a record. But for the ace (albeit excellent) to make daily, monthly records for 2-3 years in a row, spend 10-13 battles per flight and shoot down the same number of planes, make several sorties a day, shoot down 14-18 planes per day, for 4 days - 30 aircraft, shot down 3,5 aircraft in 98 months - I can’t believe it at all! But these very figures are indicated as real “victories” by German experts! And the official “achievement” of the “most effective expert” of the Luftwaffe - Lieutenant Scheel looks like a frank invention: 71 “victory” in 70 sorties !!! Despite the fact that no one confirmed his “victory” (he flew all the time alone: ​​“Believe me, gentlemen!”) They were counted and approved for him! It is not known how many more enemy planes this “ace” would “bring down” if he did not die soon! The "13 shot down" expert Rudorffer planes in the same flight on November 6, 1943, which "fell into Lake Ladoga and drowned", also look like a fabulous invention. Subsequently, it turned out that there were then so many Soviet planes there did not fly!

Masters of air combat?


To summarize. Were the German experts such masters of air combat as they were unsurpassed by anyone, as they wrote about themselves and about them, and how enthusiastic fans and “all-knowing” “honest” Western “researchers” - “historians” (“knights without fear and reproach ”,“ the greatest aces of the twentieth century ”,“ the greatest aces of all time and peoples ”), and did they personally shoot down each huge number of aircraft that they themselves announced and which all Western historians still blow?

First about the “victories”. By virtue of what is written above (cons): of course not. The number of their personal REAL victories was actually much less than what the experts declared and counted. According to the majority of knowledgeable and objective researchers, the number of TRUE victories of German experts is 2-2,5 times lower than their declared "victories." So, the number of reliable Hartman victories should be somewhere between the 146th and 176th downed planes (and now nobody will ever know the exact number). However, it is also a lot and far superior to the accounts of the best Soviet and Union aces! But if almost the entire war in a powerful high-speed fighter was only scouring in search of easy and safe targets, and exclusively engaged in shooting down the wounded, novices, inexperienced, weak pilots on wrecked and slow-moving aircraft, in every possible way avoiding not only strong and equal rivals, but also battles in general, then the number is quite real and achievable with intensive flight activity and a huge number of goals throughout the war. About the same for all other experts.

I will not argue that all German aces were engaged in postscripts and falsifications on the same scale as the top of the list of experts, but the fact that they all did this was absolutely accurate. This is eloquently indicated by the data of losses of aircraft of the Red Army Air Force in the Great Patriotic War (declared by the Germans and true). So, the Germans announced that they shot down 95 thousand Soviet planes on the Eastern Front: 46 thousand with 900 experts (including more than 15 thousand shot down by 104 experts with more than 100 “victories”), 6 thousand - another 1000 pilots, 31 thousand - anti-aircraft gunners, 12 thousand - gunners. But after all, the USSR had only 46100 combat losses of aircraft during the entire war! And if we add to the German “victories” the “victories” of the German allies, who also fought on the Eastern Front (and they, although less than the Germans, but also in the reports, gloriously “heroed” and “won”), then the number “ victories ”of the Hitlerite coalition will become even more fantastic! To the chagrin of the “real” and “honest” today's “historians,” all this is not Soviet or Russian data, but rather honest and decent Western researchers found, counted and published after the end of World War II. There were then. Insinuations and falsifications began later.

About the outstanding achievement of "highly effective expert" Scheel. An absolutely fantastic fairy tale, cleaner than the stories of Munchausen, looks like this “record" of the commander of the 3rd staffel of group 1 of group 54 of the Luftwaffe fighter squadron, Lieutenant Gunther Scheel, officially declared and still considered the most effective fighter of the Luftwaffe and the world, which for 3 months of 1943 (since mid-April to mid-July) in 70 sorties, allegedly “destroyed” 71 aircraft. Of course, there are no questions for the enthusiastic admirer of German experts. But for any normal person in this story there are VERY many questions and doubts. Why, in mid-April 1943, was the unknown newcomer lieutenant, who had not shot down a single aircraft before, appointed commander of the staffel of the famous squadron? What is so wonderful happened to him that this lieutenant suddenly immediately began to “shoot down” an airplane in every single flight? What did the rest of the squadron do while its commander shot down the planes alone, and who led it? Why did the “outstanding expert” Scheel complete three flights in THREE MONTHS (70-4 times less than the average expert), although he should have performed (according to German statistics) 5-270? Why did the “magnificent master of air combat and piloting” fight so little, accomplish so few “feats”, and so quickly and plainly die in battle with an ordinary Soviet pilot?

Now about the "unrivaled highest mastery of air combat" by German experts. Yes, most of them were skilled gunners, very good pilots with excellent training, great flying experience and excellent command of excellent fighters. First - Me-109, then - FV-190. (No matter what they say, the Me-109 of all modifications is an excellent combat aircraft: a very well thought-out design, powerful engines and armaments, excellent radio communications and a comfortable cockpit. Who doubts, try to "sit" on the pilot's seat: the Internet gives such an opportunity. The same can be said about FV-190.) But again, from the above (the pros), it follows that even the most illustrious German experts not only did not surpass most Soviet aces, but often lost to them in personal air combat skills fights cat They were usually shunned as best they could. This is evidenced by the scattering after well-known warnings on the air: “Ahtung! Achtung! In the sky ... (and not only Pokryshkin)! ”The“ unrivaled expert ”Hartman himself said that he had repeatedly scuttled deep into his territory after such reports. It is evidenced by the number of times even the most illustrious German experts were shot down on the Eastern Front, and the fact that 2/3 of the vaunted "Hitler eagles" perished on the Soviet-German front. And forever landed them in the Russian land is precisely the "Stalinist Falcons", which the Germans contemptuously called the "Bast Ivan".

Upscale Knockers


In principle, most German experts were not real aces (high-class masters of air combat in the usual sense of the term). And who were they? They were upscale DISASTERS! After all, what is air combat? Air combat is a fierce, uncompromising battle in which the mind and skill of the winner are fully manifested, and the loser, as a rule, dies. Air combat is deadly! Group air combat is much more dangerous (pilots of all nations and countries call it the “dog dump”), in which even the most experienced and most skilled ace can die from chance. All German pilots avoided and avoided fights not only in the minority and with a strong rival, but also with equal skill and strength (dangerous!). Entered into such fights only when absolutely necessary or in view of inevitability. But they loved fights with great numerical superiority. Even more - unexpectedly dive, knock down a wimp and flee on the afterburner. Pure jackals tricks and tactics! But “heroes” themselves could not be called that way, and German propaganda called their “knights” jackals ... Therefore, the Germans had a cult of “noble” predators. Especially venerated was the "orderly of the forest" - the wolf ("wolf packs", "wolf den", etc.). Experts counted a large number of battles. But can it be called a battle what Hartman and Co. did: dived - shot - fled? Of course not. This can be called an attack, an attack. But do not fight! But if we consider such “battles” as a battle, then indeed it is possible to achieve those astronomical figures that were recorded by experts. No, German experts were neither “knights without fear and reproach”, nor “unsurpassed masters of air combat”, nor “greatest aces”! Although locked up against the wall, they fought fiercely and often skillfully, in most cases they were difficult rivals.

For the sake of excuse


And where and why did the assertion about the unsurpassed highest craftsmanship and phenomenal huge scores of German experts? Firstly, they claimed this themselves in justification of their defeat, which (in their arrogant opinion) was not a defeat at all: “Wehrmacht and the Kriegsmarine lost, and the Luftwaffe were not defeated!” Secondly, they wrote and write about this, Confirming what was said by beaten experts, the modern “honest” and “objective” Western “researchers” and “historians”, who, as at all times, portray Russians as incapable of oriental savages and barbarians, and praise European Germans. For them, writing the truth means recognizing the strength and high skill of the Soviet pilots, recognizing that the USSR and the Russians made the greatest contribution to the overall victory over fascism in World War II. And they, the inveterate Russophobes, will never agree to this! Moreover, now in the "enlightened" and "democratic" West, a new wave of super-impudent and unscrupulous rewriting of the history of the Second World War is growing with silence, distortion and understatement of the role of the USSR and rabid rabid Russophobia, where Russians have no place among the winners!

And Germany lost the Second World War, largely due to the fact that its best pilots enthusiastically increased their personal accounts of “victories” to receive awards and privileges instead of conscientiously and selflessly performing tasks for the victory of Germany. Who were the German experts and all Soviet pilots really? The Germans were free hunters, choosing victims easier, safer, and, as it turned out, were talented science fiction writers. Soviet pilots were laborers of the war, reliable defenders of their bombers, attack aircraft and ground troops, which is personally dangerous, disadvantageous and does not bring large personal bills, awards and glory.

And for what, for which German experts and Soviet pilots fought? German experts (first of all) - for great personal accounts, awards, fame. For the sake of Great Germany, of course, too ... Officially. Although German propaganda carefully concealed the obvious ambition of the “heroes,” trumpeting the selfless, selfless struggle of the selfless heroic Teutonic knights against the hordes of eastern barbarians for the victory of the Third Reich, the Fuhrer of the German people. But what's the point in the huge personal accounts of “victories”, the loud glory of experts, if Germany lost the war? Soviet pilots fought for the Soviet people, for the dead comrades, for the death of fascism. For your near and dear ones. For the Motherland and Victory! And they won !!! Although the then Soviet propaganda claimed that the Soviet pilots fought not only for relatives, friends and the Fatherland, but also for Stalin, the USSR and the party. But then almost everyone sincerely identified these concepts.

Did the Soviet pilots and the Red Army Air Force have flaws? Of course there were! But this is the topic of another article. And the "Stalinist falcons" defeated their own shortcomings, and the "greatest aces of all time and peoples" with their huge accounts of "victories", and Nazi Germany, and liberated half of Europe. No matter how Western and homegrown haters, spiteful critics and falsifiers try in every possible way to discredit, denigrate, obscure and downplay their patriotism, selflessness, heroism, feat and decisive role in the struggle and victory (then it seemed forever) over fascism in World War II!

A few final words


In conclusion, I will say a little about the results of the air war on the Soviet-German (Eastern) front. Unfortunately, absolutely exact numbers do not exist. Especially (with all German pedantry, organization and order), it is precisely the German data that are incomplete and doubtful: their USSR losses are clearly exaggerated 2-2,5 times, their own losses are significantly (equally) reduced, and about the end of the war (for obvious reasons) none at all. But most objective researchers call the following numbers of combat losses: the Luftwaffe - 58850 aircraft and 50883 pilots, and the Red Army Air Force - 46100 aircraft and 34500 pilots (with a significant number of non-combat aircraft losses, mainly in the initial period and the first half of the war). And if we take into account the losses of the German allies and volunteers from the enslaved countries of Europe, who fought against the USSR together with the Germans, then the losses of the Hitlerite coalition will be even greater. So who then and whom did he “fill up with corpses” and “downed planes”?
Author:
Photos used:
Kogo, commons.wikimedia.org
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  1. GKS 2111
    GKS 2111 12 January 2020 06: 24
    +44
    " their losses in the USSR are clearly exaggerated 2-2,5 times, their own - significantly (as much) reduced"
    I agree with the Author. Never so much lie as during the war, after the hunt and before the election. (Otto Von Bismarck)
    1. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 12 January 2020 07: 44
      -40
      1. Significant combat experience of the Luftwaffe at the beginning of World War II.

      Everyone just repeats one after another the phrase about experienced Luftwaffe pilots, without delving into the essence

      An interesting nuance that is never paid attention to:

      Most of the experienced German pilots and aces involved in battles with British aircraft in 1939-40, in the battle for Britain and battles over North Africa, were DEAD by the time of the attack on the USSR ...

      Against Soviet novice pilots, the bulk of the Luftwaffe fought the same inexperienced novices who began flying in 1941
      1. Alexey G
        Alexey G 12 January 2020 07: 58
        +40
        Oleg Germans almost strangled British aircraft! If not for Goering’s erroneous decision to transfer attacks from airfields to the cities of Britain, then British aviation would die on the spot. This is recognized by the British themselves! They write about it as a happy gift from the Germans. First, the British were released at Dunkirk! Then they did not finish off their aviation! Then they did not begin to take Malta, when she practically climbed into the hands of the Germans. Rejoice that the Germans gave some aces of Britain to survive ... laughing
        1. Santa Fe
          Santa Fe 12 January 2020 08: 03
          -38
          Quote: Alexey G
          Rejoice that the Germans gave some aces of Britain to survive ...

          Alexey, you absolutely did not understand what my comment was about

          We need to rejoice that there were few experienced German pilots on 22.06.41. Those who managed to gain experience - there they buried their experience in the English Channel

          By the beginning of the war with the USSR, a large replenishment had come in the Luftwaffe - pilots who had just sat at the helm yesterday
          1. Alexey G
            Alexey G 12 January 2020 08: 23
            +38
            Oleg, I understand that once again we need to rejoice that, in your opinion, the USSR would never have defeated the Germans without shaving! Glory to the Britons! Without them, Stalin would have lost, because they had brought down the best German aces !!!
            Who puts pluses to this nonsense!
            1. Proxima
              Proxima 12 January 2020 14: 31
              +18
              For fans of the Luftwaffe, who love to savor, they say the Red Army Air Force also had postscripts - yes, there were, but these drops of deposits drowned in the ocean of oversights! To "Stalin's falcon" count the plane - this is a whole detective story, confirmation of the shot down by ground units (partisans, if the plane fell behind enemy lines). Plus, additional draconian measures were introduced in the air armies. For example Vershinin still needed to bring plates with the serial numbers of German aircraft !!! Or, let's take a typical case, a group of fighters returns from a combat mission accompanied by attack aircraft (bombers). A fighter who, in front of all honest people, flunked the messer, not only does not count downed, and even a combat sortie! The reason is the loss of attack aircraft (bombers) from enemy fighters (not from anti-aircraft guns). Plus, a downed plane is always a cash bonus, and an attribution bonus is the theft of public funds with all that it implies. Let's take Pokryshkin, for example. How many knocked down he was not counted !!! It was an interesting moment when he drove three messers into the ground in front of Vershinin’s eyes, only then Konstantin Andreevich began more favorably to consider applications for the victories won by Pokryshkin and his units. In short, look at the confirmed the victory of the Soviet aces and for each counted aircraft, three not counted are visible and vice versa, the aces of the Luftwaffe from three to six recorded - one real!
              1. Vladimir Mashkov
                12 January 2020 15: 02
                +13
                Sergey, you have euphoria in the other direction. Be real.
                1. Proxima
                  Proxima 12 January 2020 15: 49
                  +11
                  Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                  Sergey, you have euphoria in the other direction.

                  No euphoria! I am well aware that The Red Army Air Force faced a more than prepared and serious adversary, but 300 or more shot down - this is not just a bust, but a uniform disgust, humiliating the Soviet Air Force! Let us, at least hypothetically, suppose that in reality Hartmann shot down not so much as he invented, but let’s say four times less. (By the way, this was done by the Americans, who did not “hypothetically assume”, but simply reduced the victory of Japanese aces at times). This is about 90 shot down! This is your little! You are aware of what it means to bring down 15 enemy aircraft, twenty, twenty five ...? How much is behind this military work? And vice versa, the researchers of Pokryshkin “count” to him about 100 in reality of downed planes, and is this a lot in your opinion?
                  Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                  Be real.

                  Believe me, on this issue I am more realistic than yours!
                  1. Proxima
                    Proxima 12 January 2020 18: 05
                    +14
                    Now there is some monstrous substitution of the concept "the most productive ace". stop Goering had an idea about the "performance" of the aces of the Luftwaffe, who repeatedly chastised unit commanders about fake accounts. In any case, the rubbish remained inside the "corporation". But there were exceptions when the activities of the "Goering chicks" affected other "departments" besides the Luftwaffe, in particular the Kriegsmarine. You can't hide dirty linen in the hut here! I'm talking about the tenth most effective Luftwaffe ace (208 "victories") Heinrich Erler. The military tribunal sentenced him to death, accusing him that he was "too carried away in achieving his 200th victory and did not understand the full gravity of the attack." We are talking about the destruction of "Tirpitz" by Allied aircraft. The battleship that has turned into scrap metal is the best indicator of the effectiveness of this ace! good And in general, my personal subjective opinion that the result was given by ordinary Soviet fighter-hard workers, on the "account" of which there were 5 - 15 enemy aircraft! hi hi hi
                    And here is the quintessence of that RESULT!
                    1. andr6
                      andr6 12 January 2020 18: 25
                      -45
                      Quote: Proxima
                      And here is the quintessence of that RESULT!

                      The quintessence is the final size of the loss. Who, where and what phoag screwed, it does not matter.
                      And in terms of the number of losses, the USSR was ahead of the rest. Even the Chinese, and they fought much more than the USSR, lost less people. Despite the fact that they themselves were much more than fellow citizens.
                      1. Boa kaa
                        Boa kaa 12 January 2020 23: 32
                        +10
                        Quote: andr6
                        Even the Chinese, and they fought much more than the USSR, lost less people.

                        The Chinese lost 37 million people. USSR - 26 million 462 thousand people. Hinchiki still fiercely hate samurai.
                      2. fghy
                        fghy 13 January 2020 12: 01
                        -24
                        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                        USSR - 26 million 462 thousand people.

                        According to the data of the USSR State Planning Commission declassified in 2017, 42 million people are only direct losses (20% of the pre-war population of the USSR). 19 million military personnel and 23 million civilians.
                        And another 11 million. The USSR lost indirect losses.
                        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                        Hinchiki still fiercely hate samurai.

                        The Chinese are a nation.
                        Soviet citizens were a people.
                        The difference is obvious.
                      3. Nastia makarova
                        Nastia makarova 13 January 2020 15: 20
                        +2
                        these are not official sources and estimates
                      4. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 14 January 2020 00: 21
                        +4
                        And where can one get acquainted with the declassified data of the USSR State Planning Commission? And then it seems that soon something like this will be declassified, that they will say that in the USSR after the war the population was completely gone.
                      5. The comment was deleted.
                      6. alexey alexeyev_2
                        alexey alexeyev_2 14 January 2020 18: 59
                        +4
                        Eck, you old man bent, 42 million. Yes, no state at that time could not afford to have an army of more than five percent of the population .. But who will work then. And after all, they restored after the war .. Your will .. well, here you are clearly lied ...
                      7. Oleg2003
                        Oleg2003 16 January 2020 01: 08
                        +1
                        Ale, in the USSR 210 million in 41 was? Where is the firewood from?
                      8. Chack wessel
                        Chack wessel April 27 2021 10: 24
                        0
                        From the magazine "Shlyakh Peremogi" :)
                      9. mikstepanenko
                        mikstepanenko 17 January 2020 22: 55
                        +1
                        From how smartly, just two and 53 million losses. That is, almost ALL able-bodied population, at the beginning of the war. And is that nothing after that was also Japan? Are the babies fighting there? And who restored the destroyed country, Martians?
                      10. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 13 January 2020 01: 54
                        +4
                        losses? but let’s recall the masses of troops that fought on our fronts and for example, try to reduce losses when, for example, forcing any river with a bridgehead on the other side and holding it for some time so that it could cross under heavy fire there and concentrate the mass of troops needed for the offensive from this bridgehead. such as you, who even in theory do not understand such things, it is better not to start such conversations. I already heard about the fact that it was necessary to surrender Leningrad so that the losses would be reduced and not to force the Dnieper but to bypass other rubbish.
                      11. fghy
                        fghy 13 January 2020 12: 36
                        -12
                        Quote: carstorm 11
                        I already heard about the fact that it was necessary to surrender Leningrad so that the losses would be reduced and not to force the Dnieper but to bypass other rubbish.

                        Yes, an attempt to reduce the number of losses for Soviet nonsense. This indicator is of little interest to them.
                      12. mikstepanenko
                        mikstepanenko 17 January 2020 22: 58
                        +1
                        Despite the fact that the losses of the Soviet army since 43 years were lower than the losses of the German. ONLY German, but on the side of Hitler all of Europe fought.
                      13. Oyo Sarkazmi
                        Oyo Sarkazmi 20 January 2020 22: 27
                        0
                        Quote: mikstepanenko
                        Despite the fact that the losses of the Soviet army since 43 years were lower than the losses of the German.

                        In the USSR only in the summer of the 41st, losses were much higher than the German. When whole armies surrendered to commanders. Since November 41st, losses have been leveled, and since summer 44, the USSR has already begun to paint the German armies. And yes, in aviation Germany, in terms of losses, is second only to Japan. And the USSR - at the last, of the great powers, 5th.
                      14. Babay Atasovich
                        Babay Atasovich 23 July 2021 22: 51
                        0
                        Quote: mikstepanenko
                        , and after all, on the side of Hitler, all of Europe fought

                        Not only Europe, but the entire West! yes
                      15. AK1972
                        AK1972 13 January 2020 11: 48
                        +4
                        andru6 Hello, Kolyasurengoy.
                      16. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 13 January 2020 12: 07
                        +6
                        The quintessence is the final size of the loss.
                        - The casualties of the civilian population should be separated and the combat casualties compared. I guess it turns out that
                        And in terms of the number of losses, the USSR was ahead of the rest.
                        - will not be true.
                      17. fghy
                        fghy 13 January 2020 12: 11
                        -19
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        civilian casualties should be separated and combat casualties compared.

                        According to the data of the USSR State Planning Commission declassified in 2017, 42 million people are only direct losses (20% of the pre-war population of the USSR). 19 million military personnel and 23 million civilians.
                        And another 11 million. The USSR lost indirect losses.
                      18. Nastia makarova
                        Nastia makarova 13 January 2020 15: 21
                        +1
                        this has not been confirmed
                      19. wchin
                        wchin 13 January 2020 22: 46
                        -7
                        Quote: Nastia Makarova
                        this has not been confirmed

                        And what, someone and something had to confirm?
                        1. The data was presented as "declassified data of the State Planning Committee of the USSR".
                        2. The data were announced at the State Duma deputies, senators, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and veteran organizations.
                        What after that can be doubts about their reliability?
                        What, speakers all deceived them? Did they perform before the boys in the sandbox?
                      20. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 23: 06
                        -1
                        Quote: wchin
                        The data were announced at the State Duma deputies, senators, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and veteran organizations.
                        ...
                        What, speakers all deceived them? Did they perform before the boys in the sandbox?


                        Well, actually yes. Doubts may well be. This audience could eat anything without waking up and / or without drying out.
                      21. Nastia makarova
                        Nastia makarova 14 January 2020 07: 43
                        +2
                        in 90, many "historians" wrote any nonsense, now the historical community has determined that the military losses of the USSR are 11 444 100 people
                      22. alexey alexeyev_2
                        alexey alexeyev_2 14 January 2020 19: 02
                        +1
                        The same "speakers" recognized the responsibility of the USSR for Katyn ... Although the case was sewn with white thread ...
                      23. cabbage
                        cabbage 13 January 2020 22: 15
                        +5
                        The greatest losses of the USSR in World War II were brought by the historian Boris Sokolov. They are similar to those discussed in the State Duma. Although we far from all still know, open demographic data is enough to doubt 42 million irretrievable losses.
                        During the war, the losses of the USSR amounted to about 27 million people. This figure consists of the number of dead military (8 million 700 thousand people), civilian deaths (7 million 400 thousand people) and data on the excess of mortality over fertility. During the war years, 34,5 million people passed through the army (including those called up and already in the ranks of the regular army by June 1941). Of these, about 11 million people took part in the hostilities directly. But if you believe the data voiced in the State Duma (more than 19 million dead military personnel), it becomes unclear where our veterans came from?
                        By the way, how did the USSR State Planning Commission know combat losses?
                      24. wchin
                        wchin 13 January 2020 22: 49
                        -3
                        Quote: cabbage
                        During the war years, 34,5 million people passed through the army (including those called up and already in the ranks of the regular army by June 1941).

                        Apparently it is correct to read "were drafted into the army and dropped out of the army ....".
                        Since the disability commissions from the army were 15,2 million people.
                        Another 19 million died.
                        And another 0,3 million people could drop out for some other reason (old age, pregnancy, etc.).
                        Quote: cabbage
                        By the way, how did the USSR State Planning Commission know combat losses?

                        The State Planning Committee of the USSR in those years included the CSB of the USSR.
                        In general, the Gosplan in the USSR knew everything. This howled the second most important (after the Council of Ministers of the USSR) executive authority in the country. The chairman of the State Planning Commission had the status of deputy chairman of the USSR. All ministers by status were lower.
                      25. cabbage
                        cabbage April 8 2020 23: 56
                        0
                        "Apparently read correctly" were drafted into the army and dropped out of the army .... ".
                        Since the disability commissions from the army were 15,2 million people.
                        Another 19 million died.
                        And another 0,3 million people could have left for some other reason (old age, pregnancy, etc.). "

                        It turns out that no one was left intact. Some dead and disabled.

                        "The State Planning Committee of the USSR in those years included the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR.
                        In general, the State Planning Committee in the USSR knew everything. It was the second most important (after the USSR Council of Ministers) body of executive power in the country. The Chairman of the State Planning Committee had the status of the USSR Deputy Chairman of the Council. All the ministers were lower in status than him. "

                        These are your personal fantasies. Gosplan could use only the information of the Moscow Region. The Krivosheyev Commission calculated the amount based on the same data. She got the figure of the total number of dead citizens of the USSR - about 27 million people, with military losses of about 9 million, without prisoners of war. But neither the State Planning Commission nor this commission took into account about 1,3 million people who were immigrants from the USSR who did not return home. In this regard, the figures of losses from Krivosheev appear to be overestimated.
                      26. Oleg2003
                        Oleg2003 16 January 2020 01: 11
                        +2
                        And again I repeat: where in the USSR 210 million in 41? Without 11 million indirect losses?
                    2. Octopus
                      Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 26
                      +2
                      Quote: Proxima
                      were given by ordinary Soviet fighters-hard workers, on the "account" of which there were 5 - 15 enemy aircraft!

                      You, of course, are right, in WWII the mass pressed. Another thing is that you had enough with your "hard workers", 15 shot down - this is the GSS (before the 43rd - 10 shot down). "Workers" mostly had 0, much less often 1-5. But the "noughties" also did their job, and this work solved more than a personal shot of experts.
                      Quote: Proxima
                      And here is the quintessence of that RESULT!

                      Suppose Berlin was not taken, the Red Army ended the war on the Kyustrinsky bridgehead. What does it change?
                      1. victor50
                        victor50 12 January 2020 19: 11
                        +4
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Suppose Berlin was not taken, the Red Army ended the war on the Kyustrinsky bridgehead. What does it change?

                        I do not think that he wrote specifically about Berlin and the Banner. About Victory, after all!
                      2. Octopus
                        Octopus 12 January 2020 19: 23
                        -19
                        Quote: victor50
                        I do not think that he wrote specifically about Berlin and the Banner. About Victory, after all!

                        Let's assume that Berlin is an accident that did not happen (it was a combination of many accidents). If you remove this one operation (two, Prague, too), would you write about Victory with a capital letter?
                    3. CTEPX
                      CTEPX 15 January 2020 05: 02
                      +1
                      Quote: Proxima
                      And here is the quintessence of that RESULT!

                      And what did the St.George ribbon fail to please you as a result of the "quintessence"? In the Second World War, someone else won?
                  2. tatarin1972
                    tatarin1972 13 January 2020 21: 11
                    +2
                    It’s not only a matter of training pilots, it’s a matter of equipment and tactics, for the initial period the Germans had it better. The action of a couple and a triple, plus the first is radio-controlled, the second is not. Yes, and a lot of everything, at the beginning of the war we were losing on the ground and in the air.
                2. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 17: 31
                  +1
                  The combat losses of spacecraft air force pilots during the war amounted to 27, including 600 attack pilots, 7837 fighters, 11 bomber, 874 reconnaissance, 6613
                  "I fought in the IL-2" Drabkin. Of course, this data is taken from somewhere else. And even in these figures there are non-combat losses, ours, unlike the Germans, just tried to attribute technical and organizational "shoals" to combat ones.
              2. theodore rasp
                theodore rasp 4 February 2020 14: 43
                -1
                "- the Luftwaffe aces out of three or six recorded - one is real!"
                Oh! If! According to the rules of accounting for victories in the Lufwaffe, a downed enemy aircraft was credited to the account of ALL pilots of the unit who were in the air, and (attention), even those who were receiving cars 3000 km from the battlefield. Therefore, it is not surprising that in September 1939 more than 95 Polish aircraft were shot down.
            2. andr6
              andr6 12 January 2020 18: 35
              -26
              Quote: Alexey G
              The USSR would never have defeated the Germans without shaving!

              And without shaving.
              And without amers.
              Without the Anglo-Saxons, in general.
              The independent Soviet-German war, which took place outside the framework of WW2 (in the USSR it was called the Second World War), ended on September 24.09.1941, 08.05.1945. On the same day, without a break, the USSR joined the Anti-Hitler Coalition on the side of the Anglo-Saxons. And 2/XNUMX/XNUMX in Europe ended XNUMXMB. It ended with the victory of the countries of the Anti-Hitler coalition. One of which was the USSR.
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 13 January 2020 01: 47
                +6
                Enough of this game already scribble. military alliances have always been created by all to achieve certain results. from a military point of view, this union in our direction had no profits at all. unless of course now you tell me which, for example, American divisions fought on our side in any of the battles that determined the result. understand in the end you and those like you are the losses that the Germans suffered in the first two years of the war with the USSR and decided the actual outcome of the whole war. it was the Soviet army that was grinding the main forces and forced in 43 to carry out a total mobilization and not shaves with amers. but the second front, as it were, was not observed at that time.
                1. fghy
                  fghy 13 January 2020 12: 44
                  -22
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  from a military point of view, this union in our direction had no profits at all.

                  Of course not. That is why the Bolsheviks began to ask for such an alliance in the last days of June 1941. A week after the start of the war.
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  American divisions fought on our side in any of the battles that determined the result.

                  Without weapons, ammunition and, most importantly, the province, there would be no battles at all. Just the whole territory controlled by the Bolsheviks in the winter of 1941/42. would die out of hunger. And that’s it.
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  the losses that the Germans suffered in the first two years of the war with the USSR and actually decided the outcome of the whole war

                  The outcome of the war as a whole was decided by the destruction of the Reich economy from the air. By 1945, the Reich was almost completely in ruins.
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  it was the Soviet army that was grinding the main forces and forced in 43 to carry out total mobilization

                  In fact, in 1943, due to the shortage of cannon fodder, it was the USSR that switched to total mobilization. But the Germans did not even think about it.
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  but the second front, as it were, was not observed at that time.

                  Actually, the second front in Europe, contrary to the oaths of Sovagitprom, was opened by the Anglo-Saxons just in the summer of 1943. After that, Italy, Germany's largest ally, capitulated quite quickly.
                  1. carstorm 11
                    carstorm 11 13 January 2020 12: 50
                    +9
                    where do you take this nonsense, God forgive me ... you listen so totally fed and armed us and we only delivered the body. everything is clear shorter on with such ignorance I don’t see the point.
                    1. fghy
                      fghy 13 January 2020 13: 27
                      -14
                      Quote: carstorm 11
                      where do you get this nonsense

                      Not nonsense, but historical facts.
                      Bullshit, this is the tales of Sovagitprop.
                      Quote: carstorm 11
                      we were totally fed and armed, and we only delivered bodies

                      That is how it was.
                      The USSR produced only tanks / self-propelled guns, aircraft and cannons with small arms. In the form of iron.
                      He did not produce almost anything else.
                      There was almost no food of his own.
                      There was almost no TNT.
                      There was almost no gasoline (there was no TPP at all).
                      There was almost no motor transport of its own.
                      There were almost no steam locomotives.
                      Etc. etc.
                      1. Nastia makarova
                        Nastia makarova 13 January 2020 15: 22
                        +4
                        and where do you get such nonsense?
                      2. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 22 January 2020 16: 14
                        +1
                        Nastia,
                        Do not pay attention, this is another coming out-priibalto-psheksky troll unsuccessfully trying to shake our consciousness. This is exactly that "vile and disgusting mouth", which, according to the statement of the GDP, will be gagged.
                      3. Nastia makarova
                        Nastia makarova 23 January 2020 07: 43
                        0
                        yes it’s clear that this is a Troll))) just that a lot of them divorced ((((
                      4. Oleg2003
                        Oleg2003 16 January 2020 01: 18
                        0
                        The devil is in the details: the detail here is almost.
          2. novel66
            novel66 12 January 2020 12: 01
            +3
            Oleg, hi but they taught them honestly, even without experience - it was a difficult target
            1. Santa Fe
              Santa Fe 13 January 2020 01: 07
              -4
              I completely agree with you

              Speaking of the best organization of the Luftwaffe in '41, this is the best training system and understanding of the importance of interaction with other branches of the armed forces

              Speaking of experienced German pilots and the inexperience of our Air Force, we must put this at the forefront and not the “accumulated combat experience” in the 39-40s. That combat experience disappeared along with the downed Luftwaffe aces drowned in La Manche and the sands of North Africa (Hans Joachim Marcel and Co.)
              1. Dooplet11
                Dooplet11 13 January 2020 12: 10
                0
                That combat experience disappeared along with the downed Luftwaffe aces drowned in La Manche and the sands of North Africa (Hans Joachim Marcel and Co.)
                - Do you think that "combat experience" is accumulated exclusively by "shot down aces"? And nowhere else leaves its traces?
                1. Santa Fe
                  Santa Fe 14 January 2020 03: 41
                  -5
                  Weird question. Experience is people. Crews flying in combat. The pieces of iron themselves do not know how to fight, and in this sense are always the same

                  By June 1941, a handful of crews remained in the Luftwaffe, who participated in the battles and performed tasks in the sky of Poland, France and the battle of Britain

                  And no instructions will teach you to intuitively choose a lead and hit the target, this experience comes only in battle. Comes - and leaves, along with losses
                  1. Dooplet11
                    Dooplet11 14 January 2020 05: 54
                    +5
                    By June 1941, a handful of crews remained in the Luftwaffe, who participated in the battles and performed tasks in the sky of Poland, France and the battle of Britain
                    - "a handful" is how much in absolute and relative numbers? Among the command staff of groups, squadrons, flights, rank-and-file pilots? And also the percentage of participants in the capture of Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia.
                    Give me the numbers, dear Oleg! And their source. Slogans from you are hard to believe. The speed of the fall of the bombs has already been taught.
                    1. Santa Fe
                      Santa Fe 14 January 2020 08: 44
                      -5
                      In absolute terms, irreparable loss of flight crew Luftwaffe in all European campaigns, before the attack on the USSR amounted to 13 535 people.

                      One may ask how many of them were pilots, but the fact itself loss of thousands of flown crewsperforming missions in a real combat situation, suggests that all the "accumulated combat experience" remained in the graves. With such a scale of losses, everyone was killed there, both privates and aces, and pilots from the command staff of groups and squadrons.

                      Regarding relative numbers, the explosive growth in the number of Luftwaffe is best of all. Where to get pilots with combat experience for each aircraftif the production of ME-109 nine months before the attack on the USSR (from the end of the battle for Britain on October 1940 to June 41) amounted to almost 2000 units. This is four times the amount of Me-109, with which Germany began the war

                      In such circumstances, in the cabs of Messers and Junkers, mostly jerks of the Hitler Youth were to sit. And this situation only worsened over time (the increase in the number of Luftwaffe throughout the war). Therefore, there is no reason to doubt the paradoxical statement of the Air Force Commander of the South-Western Front of the Falaleev (1942) - "In July, I reported this to Air Force Commander A. A. Novikov:

                      “Air battles show that the enemy is throwing poorly trained flight personnel into battle. Among the German pilots shot down and captured, there are dropouts who have completed 1-2 combat missions after leaving school ... It can be concluded that we are opposed by a numerically superior air force. the enemy, but qualitatively significantly inferior, who has already lost a significant part of experienced pilots Relying on quantitative superiority, the enemy seeks to compensate for the lost quality of his flight personnel "{8}"


                      There is no free and extramural experience in war
                      1. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 10: 35
                        +2
                        You, dear, are starting to play thimbles. We follow the hands of Oleg Kaptsov:
                        1.
                        That battle experience disappeared with the downed Luftwaffe aces drowned in La Manche and the sands of northern Africa (Hans Joachim Marseille and Co.)

                        And suddenly
                        3.
                        In absolute terms, the irretrievable loss of the Luftwaffe flight crew in all European campaigns, before the attack on the USSR amounted to 13 535 people.
                        .
                        No, really! Let's get back to La Manche and the sands of Africa. How many flight crews remained in service at the close of the Battle of Britain? What percentage of these survivors were the personnel of the units participating in the attack on the USSR? That's when you bring these numbers (and the source, from where you took them), then you can judge whether all the combat experience drowned in La Manche. In addition, let me tell you that the combat experience of the Air Force is not only the personal experience of the flight personnel, but also the experience of combat interaction with other parts, the experience of material support, technical maintenance in a combat situation, communications, camouflage, combat training techniques, combat manuals, manuals and guidelines for the use of tactical techniques.
                      2. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 10: 38
                        +1
                        Therefore, there is no reason to doubt the paradoxical statement of the Air Force Commander of the South-Western Front of the Falaleev (1942)
                        - There is no reason to doubt the statement. There is reason to doubt the conclusions. A sheer methodological error to judge the enemy’s combat training by losers who were captured.
                        And here you are right:
                        There is no free and extramural experience in war
                        . But someone else's experience can and should be used. Everywhere, not only in war. hi
                      3. Vladimir Mashkov
                        14 January 2020 10: 51
                        +1
                        It's ridiculous! New couplets of old songs from modern storytellers! laughing laughing laughing
                    2. Santa Fe
                      Santa Fe 14 January 2020 09: 29
                      -4
                      The speed of the fall of the bombs has already been taught.

                      Well, yes, to the question - how did it happen that these fall in the atmosphere are identical to vacuum, you did not find an answer

                      Why such a source, if it is contrary to common sense
                      1. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 10: 42
                        +2
                        Well, yes, to the question - how did it happen that these fall in the atmosphere are identical to vacuum, you did not find an answer
                        Why such a source, if it is contrary to common sense

                        It's just that your "common sense" hasn't even grown to the level of textbooks for cadets of flight schools. Otherwise, you would have understood how, when and to what extent the atmosphere affects the flight of free-falling ammunition. hi
                      2. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 10: 56
                        -4
                        In this case, it does not affect, the numbers correspond to the vacuum
                      3. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 11: 05
                        +2
                        In this case, it does not affect, the numbers correspond to the vacuum
                        - Did you decide this speculatively? As with the Channel drowned experience? No specific figures, no calculations, only a categorical statement by Oleg Kaptsov. However, you are in your role. laughing
                      4. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 11: 23
                        -5
                        Did you decide this speculatively?

                        No, I, unlike you, counted

                        The figures given are a drop in vacuum
                      5. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 11: 30
                        +3
                        No, I, unlike you, counted

                        -can you see your calculation for these numbers ?:

                        Nowhere is it written about the vacuum ... They deceived the cadets. Probably to be more smeared on the target.
                      6. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 11: 52
                        +2
                        For a body falling in a vacuum from a height of 2000 m, the fall time will be:
                        T = Root (2000 * 2 / 9,81) = 20,192s. The velocity of this body at Vo = 0m / s V = T * g = 20,192 * 9,98 = 198m / s.
                        In the table, for a bomb that had an initial horizontal speed of 50 m / s, a speed of 189 m / s is indicated. You, Oleg, have problems with arithmetic, if you say that the table shows the speeds for the vacuum conditions. hi
                      7. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 12: 09
                        -3
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        = 198m / s. In the table, for a bomb that had an initial horizontal speed of 50 m / s, a speed of 189 m / s is indicated.

                        And next 197

                        It's a vacuum
                        + - several meters error margin

                        What is air resistance - put your hand out the window at 120 km / h. And at 300?

                        Imagine that such a tumbling fool did not experience air resistance ...
                      8. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 12: 35
                        +2
                        And the next one is 197. It's a vacuum.
                        + - several meters error margin

                        For 197m / s the horizontal component is 75 m / s at the first moment. Open the textbook above, study, and you yourself can make an accurate calculation to make sure that the figures given are real speeds for standard atmospheric conditions.
                        What is air resistance - put your hand out the window at 120 km / h. And at 300?
                        ...
                        Imagine that such a tumbling fool did not experience air resistance ...

                        Air resistance for an aerial bomb is a calculable thing, you don’t have to put your hands anywhere. How to take resistance into account in textbooks. Read, and you will find it.
                        "Such a fool" does not tumble. No wonder she has a stabilizer. Resistance is experiencing. And in the tables given it is taken into account.
                        But you again left the MAIN QUESTION: The ratio of BzB veterans and newcomers to the Luftwaffe flight crew, which participated in the attack on the USSR. As I understand it, you cannot give these numbers for lack of. And your statement about the Luftwaffe’s experience drowned in La Manche is nothing more than a declaration of denseness.
                      9. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 13: 02
                        -5
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        For 197m / s the horizontal component is 75 m / s at the first moment.

                        Classical law of addition of speeds, 198 vertical (for vacuum), 75 horizontal

                        Do you really think that the atmosphere didn’t affect the bomb in any way, which turned out to be 197, just a few meters lower than under full vacuum
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        these are real speeds for standard atmospheric conditions.

                        Well, give a calculation of air resistance, since you are familiar with the textbook
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        "Such a fool" does not tumble.

                        Of course, she’s vertically suspended in the bomb bay
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        And your statement about the Luftwaffe experience drowned in La Manche

                        The very fact of a sharp increase in the number of aircraft in the Luftwaffe in 1941-42, compared with any previous year. Airplanes can be built. But where to get "experienced pilots" for new units, if earlier they could not have been, due to the lack of so many aircraft - the main condition for pilots to have combat experience

                        Just honestly answer this simplest question and fan the problem. If you have time, you can list the pilots by name
                      10. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 13: 14
                        +4
                        Classical law of addition of speeds, 198 vertical (for vacuum), 75 horizontal
                        Do you really think that the atmosphere didn’t affect the bomb in any way, which turned out to be 197, just a few meters lower than under full vacuum
                        -
                        198 is the rate of fall of the body in vacuum for the initial conditions Vo = 0, N = 2000m
                        197 is the speed (vertical + horizontal) of a bomb dropped from a height of 2000m with a horizontal speed of 75m / s. I really I knowthat the effect of the atmosphere is taken into account. Do you really argue with the textbook, which studied all the pre-war air forces of the Red Army?
                        Of course, she’s vertically suspended in the bomb bay
                        , - what, everyone and always ????
                        This is a revelation!
                        The very fact of a sharp increase in the number of aircraft in the Luftwaffe in 1941-42, compared with any previous year.
                        - But what, the USSR was attacked in the 42nd? Opening!
                        Just honestly answer this simplest question and fan the problem. If you have time, you can list the pilots by name
                        - That is, you can not answer the question about the ratio of BzB veterans and newcomers to the Luftwaffe flight crew that participated in the attack on the USSR? Expected.
                        Your statement about the Luftwaffe’s experience drowned in La Manche is nothing more than a declaration of denseness.
                        This should be the end.
                      11. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 13: 22
                        -4
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        198 is the rate of fall of the body in vacuum for the initial conditions Vo = 0, N = 2000m
                        197 is the speed (vertical + horizontal) of a bomb dropped from a height of 2000m with a horizontal speed of 75m / s

                        So how much has it decreased compared to vacuum?
                        You can name a number
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        I really know

                        Well, bring at least some calculation, otherwise it looks pathetic
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        - What, everyone and always?

                        No one ever

                        All these changes of orientation in space, oscillations and precession will slow down the fall of the bomb even more.
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        - But what, the USSR was attacked in the 42nd?

                        The situation continued throughout the war
                        Where did the pilots come from for the newly formed staffels
                      12. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 13: 44
                        +3
                        So how much has it decreased compared to vacuum?
                        You can name a number
                        I can. Easy. In a vacuum, the bomb speed for the case of 75 m / s of the initial horizontal component is 11 m / s more. Root (198 * 198 + 75 * 75) = 208 m / s. hi Learn the materiel, then talk about changes in orientation and precession.
                        The situation continued throughout the war
                        Where did the pilots come from for the newly formed staffels
                        - What, all throughout the war drowned the experience in the English Channel? laughing
                        The saws of the newly formed staffels in 1940 were partly those that survived in the BZB, and partly those who studied since 1937, in the 38,39, 40th, absorbing in the lessons and in training flights the experience provided by the army. But here the% ratio of you somehow can not be pulled out by ticks. Or none of the Luftwaffe survived in the BZB? Is everyone drowned?
                      13. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 23: 32
                        -2
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        In a vacuum, the bomb speed for the case of 75 m / s of the initial horizontal component is 11 m / s more. Root (198 * 198 + 75 * 75) = 208 m / s.

                        So you admitted that the source is unreliable

                        When a standard bomb (pointed cylinder with plumage) falls in the Earth’s atmosphere (not on Mars!), Its drop parameters differ by 5% from the fall in vacuum, which is obvious nonsense and simply impossible

                        Two forces act on a bomb - gravity and the opposite force of air resistance. The first is mg, invariably 1000 H.

                        The second is considered c * S * (p * V ^ 2) / 2
                        S-cross-sectional area, for FAB-100 it is 0,224 m2
                        p - the density of the atmosphere for a height of 0-2000m, is 1,1 ... 1,2 kg / m3
                        bomb air resistance coefficient for speed much less than Mach = 0,1


                        The resistance force of air at a speed of 50 m / s will be 30 H
                        At 175 m / s - 400 H

                        Those. We are speaking about tens of percent of gravity

                        Here, the presence of stabilizers, oscillations and a change in the orientation of the bomb during a fall, which will further increase these values, have not yet been taken into account.

                        Your result is a 5% change in speed, and this doesn’t bother you at all
                      14. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 15 January 2020 00: 17
                        -2
                        By the way, I counted incorrectly, 0,267 is the diameter, not the radius. Area - 0,055 m2

                        The specified Newton values ​​must be divided by 4.

                        But this does not change the essence, especially since plumage and somersault were not taken into account when falling out of the bomb bay
                      15. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 15 January 2020 09: 44
                        +2
                        So you admitted that the source is unreliable

                        Do not wait! laughing Because you strictly set the pattern in Kaptsovsky:
                        its falling parameters differ by 5% from falling in a vacuum, which is obvious nonsense and simply impossible

                        And typically, in Kaptsovsky, you fit arguments under it:
                        bomb air resistance coefficient for speed much less than Mach = 0,1
                        ...
                        The resistance force of air at a speed of 50 m / s will be 30 H
                        At 175 m / s - 400 H
                        ...
                        By the way, I counted incorrectly,
                        ...
                        But this does not change the essence, especially since plumage and somersault were not taken into account when falling out of the bomb bay

                        instead of figuring out why the numbers and facts do not fit into your template.
                        But still, let's figure it out.
                        1. The above values ​​of the speeds FAB-100 and FAB-50 are practical values ​​obtained during tests to determine the characteristic time of an aerial bomb, which is used to calculate the lead angle during bombing.
                        2. Now about the theory.
                        a) You take Cx = 0.1 of a hypothetical bomb for the FAB-100. Although this is not true, the CX FAB-100 may be different. But all right, we will forgive you this and accept for FAB-100 Cx = 0,1.
                        b) you count for a speed of 175m / s for the final section trajectory a drag force of 100n (10,2% of gravity) and on this basis you conclude that 5% (and actually 5,556%) deviation of the speed of a real bomb from the speed in a vacuum is "rubbish and simply impossible." Let's see how the ratio of the resistance force to gravity depends on the current velocity value for a mass of 100 kg and Cx = 0,1:

                        The average value for the speed range 0-200m / s will be about 4,62% that is even less practical 5,556% for FAB-100.
                        c) You come up with a "somersault" and unfoundedly draw it into arguments.


                        Summary.
                        Sometimes to evaluate practice using the theory of arithmetic alone is not enough, it is necessary to apply at least algebra. And if the framework Your[b] [/ b] "theories" are broken by practice, look for a cant in theory.
                        So it turns out that the bombing textbook is lying, because it does not correspond to Kaptsov’s template that the bomb cannot fall faster than 150m / s, and the entire Luftwaffe’s experience drowns in La Manche because Kaptsov sees it this way, and not because Kaptsova has specific figures and facts that confirm this. But such is Kaptsov, and he will persistently push facts to theory, and not build theory on facts.
                      16. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 15 January 2020 09: 53
                        -4
                        And this is just a case

                        Why in approximate calculation give figures with an accuracy of thousandths of a percent. As if it adds to the scientific. On the contrary, you are simply hiding from reality for meaningless details.

                        Better Count the Effect of Plumage
                        Or is it more convenient for you to pretend that he is not
                      17. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 15 January 2020 10: 08
                        +2
                        And this is just a case

                        Why would the body only? You (you !!!) brought Cx data for the bomb along with the plumage. So here is this phrase:
                        you are simply hiding from reality for meaningless details

                        try to apply to yourself. wink
                        Better Count the Effect of Plumage
                        Or is it more convenient for you to pretend that he is not

                        It’s better to carefully study the primary sources (a bombing textbook, graphics and photos that you yourself bring) so as not to blush from your own incompetence.
                      18. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 15 January 2020 21: 05
                        -3
                        You (you !!!) brought Cx data for the bomb along with the plumage.

                        Cx this is understandable. But what about the plumage area

                        In the calculations - only the cross-sectional area of ​​the body

                        You too often fail to notice obvious things or pretend
                      19. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 16 January 2020 09: 39
                        +1
                        You too often fail to notice obvious things or pretend

                        And this is written by a person who first takes into account the mid-ceiling Cx, then he calculates four (!) Times in calculation, immediately writes that the essence of such an error does not change, and suddenly for some reason the opponent starts to catch fleas in the calculations.
                        Well, let's catch fleas:

                        The midship area taking into account the plumage of the FAB-100 will be 0,0617 m2. Substituting this value into the calculation of the ratio of resistance to gravity (taking into account the ceiling Cx, which Kaptsov did not cause objections), we obtain the average ratio in the speed range 0-200m / s, equal to 5,09%. Let me remind you, the practical difference between the speed of the FAB-100 and the speed in vacuum is 5,566% Looking for fleas in Cx? Look for it. Cx real FAB-100 will be less than 0,1 in this speed range. hi
                        Oleg! Your speeches in our discussion begin to resemble something between a clowning and babble of a loser at the blackboard. I'm afraid the public no longer knows to laugh at you, or cry.
                      20. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 15 January 2020 09: 56
                        -4
                        You come up with a "somersault"

                        The bomb is suspended horizontally and in this position leaves the plane

                        Does it change position in space?
                        Does this somehow affect the strength of the air resistance?
                      21. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 15 January 2020 11: 11
                        +2
                        the omba is suspended horizontally and leaves the plane in this position.
                        Does it change position in space?
                        Does this somehow affect the strength of the air resistance?

                        The practical angle of attack (do you know this term?) Of the bomb in calculations is taken to be equal to "0". This means that the force of resistance of the air environment is always directed along the axis of the bomb. However, in practice there is time for the bomb to stabilize in the stream. It ranges from 0 for a bomb suspended horizontally to 2s for a bomb suspended vertically with the stabilizer. And they are trying to reduce it in various ways. But this is to increase the accuracy of bombing. So the "somersault" cherished by you is possible only for hanging the bomb down with the stabilizer. But this is an exotic case (Yak-1B). In fact, the effect of stabilization on the contact speed of the bomb with the target is negligible (less than the effect of air temperature).
                        But judging from the questions you are asking, you have not mastered the textbook on bombing.
                      22. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 15 January 2020 11: 20
                        +3
                        Oleg, it’s ridiculous to watch you cling to straws to protect your slogans, based either on false messages or not at all from scratch. And bombs can fall faster than 150 m / s, and the Luftwaffe’s experience did not completely drown in La Manche. Calm down already! laughing
                      23. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 15 January 2020 21: 54
                        -2
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        And bombs can fall faster than 150 m / s

                        You mentioned the characteristic time, this is what you googled on this issue:

                        “The fall time from a height of 2000 meters in the void is the same for all bombs and amounts to 20,193 s. The real characteristic time of most modern bombs lies in the range of 20,25–33,75. Less characteristic time speaks of better ballistic characteristics of the bomb. ”
                        ----

                        “By the beginning of the air battle, the British could throw 1103 pilots into the battle, the Luftwaffe - 1450 .... [later] the Luftwaffe had an average of 1100-1200 pilots in service, that is, they lacked about one third of the flight personnel in fighter units. “The tangible losses suffered by German aircraft during the spring battles over continental Europe were affected.”

                        The battle for Britain lasted 4 months. If we proceed from the calculation of 50% of the monthly renewal of flight personnel (combat and sanitary losses, urgent leave), then about 10 thousand pilots and other members of the flight crews managed to gain combat experience

                        Losses - 3500+ irrecoverable, N commissions on wounds, for example, about 4000 in total (pilots are much more likely to die than wounded return)

                        60% retained their experience
                        But we did not take into account:

                        - Did the Germans have the opportunity to make 50% regular updates to the flight crew that took part in the operation? - or is this a rough assumption

                        - the experience of those who came to an end in October is not comparable with the experience of those who fought since July (in these conditions, an absolute minority)

                        - The influence of the next 8 months, the European theater of operations, Africa, Crete, which were supposed to “mow” still a new number of pilots. Total losses 39-June41 already resulted, 13k irrecoverable, 6k wounds

                        Now you can argue with the obvious
                      24. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 16 January 2020 10: 10
                        +2
                        And bombs can fall faster than 150 m / s

                        You mentioned the characteristic time, this is what you googled on this issue:

                        “The fall time from a height of 2000 meters in the void is the same for all bombs and amounts to 20,193 s. The real characteristic time of most modern bombs lies in the range of 20,25–33,75. Less characteristic time speaks of better ballistic characteristics of the bomb. ”

                        AND? We look at the bombing tables of the 2 Pe-1943 Aircraft Bombing Guide:

                        and we see that the characteristic time of the FAB-100 is from 20,75 s to 20,87 s, depending on the type of suspension of the bomb. Accepting the fall of the bomb equally accelerated and making a simple calculation for a characteristic time of 20,87 s, we get for FAB-100 vertical component speeds of 191,7 m / s. The result obtained correlates perfectly with 197m / s contact speed from the bombing textbook.
                        Oleg, will you still argue with the obvious of these documents ?:
                      25. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 16 January 2020 10: 20
                        +2
                        - 1450 .... [later] the Luftwaffe had an average of 1100–1200 pilots in service,
                        ...
                        The battle for Britain lasted 4 months. If we proceed from the calculation of 50% of the monthly renewal of flight personnel (combat and sanitary losses, urgent leave), then about 10 thousand pilots and other members of the flight crews managed to gain combat experience

                        Losses - 3500+ irrecoverable, N commissions on wounds, for example, about 4000 in total (pilots are much more likely to die than wounded return)

                        60% retained their experience
                        But we did not take into account:

                        - Did the Germans have the opportunity to make 50% regular updates to the flight crew that took part in the operation? - or is this a rough assumption

                        - the experience of those who came to an end in October is not comparable with the experience of those who fought since July (in these conditions, an absolute minority)

                        - The influence of the next 8 months, the European theater of operations, Africa, Crete, which were supposed to “mow” still a new number of pilots. Total losses 39-June41 already resulted, 13k irrecoverable, 6k wounds

                        Do you play thimbles again with the same numbers? But even of them obviously that not everyone drowned in the English Channel , part survived, but taking into account your own phrase (with which I absolutely agree!):
                        As a rule, aces became those who managed to survive in the first fights. After which professional intuition was already developed to know how to aim to shoot and bomb.

                        the surviving part was the best and knew how to aim, shoot and bomb. Hence the conclusion - your slogan about the fact that "the entire experience of the Luftwaffe by the time of the attack on the USSR drowned in the La Manche" (c) is suitable for clowning, and not for serious perception. hi
                  2. Dooplet11
                    Dooplet11 14 January 2020 11: 10
                    +3
                    And no instructions will teach you to intuitively choose a lead and hit the target, this experience comes only in battle.
                    - Instructions teach choosing the lead correctly and consciously. Instructions based on combat experience make this easier and faster. And the combat experience itself accelerates the process of taking the right lead.
                    1. Santa Fe
                      Santa Fe 14 January 2020 11: 25
                      -5
                      Learn to drive a racing GT-R on the track among rivals in the tutorial))

                      Confidence in actions and practical experience in such things is all. Words and instructions can’t convey it
                      1. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 11: 34
                        +2
                        Learn to drive a racing GT-R on the track for a tutorial))

                        Confidence in actions and practical experience in such things is all. Words and instructions can’t convey it
                        - Yes, but without studying the sane instructions, even sitting in the GT-R on the track is not worth it. But you should not take the topic aside. Where are the specific numbers for the surviving Luftwaffe pilots in the Battle of Britain and their participation in the attack on the USSR? What, in general, everyone died in La Manche ??? !!!! belay
                      2. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 13: 14
                        -2
                        Quote: Dooplet11
                        Where are the specific numbers for the surviving Luftwaffe pilots in the Battle of Britain and their participation in the attack on the USSR?

                        In your place, I would think about who was sitting at the controls of the aircraft of the newly formed staffels

                        The Germans in the years 39-40. there was not so much military equipment as in the attack on the USSR. The equipment was built. Who trained the crews for her and how? This Hitler Youth did not have the opportunity to take part in battles before 41.

                        (Yes, better preparation and a 400-hour raid - against 30 for ours. The results should not be surprising. Moreover, a richer nation even in peacetime had many times more opportunities for education and the acquisition of technical knowledge in practice for young people - for example, compare the number of motorcycles per capita of the USSR / Germany in the 30s.)
                      3. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 13: 17
                        +3
                        There were no numbers, no. In exchange, a comparison of the number of alarms per Eskimo in the armies of the USSR / Germany. Kaptsov is Kaptsov.
                      4. Santa Fe
                        Santa Fe 14 January 2020 13: 32
                        -3
                        The Germans were not Eskimos, that was the problem

                        By the way, on your part there are no numbers at all, like facts, I would still write, but I do not like labels and transitions to personalities

                        With alarms - this is "Programmed defeat", the best I read about the disaster of 1941. Only facts, without a gram of Russophobia. And the conclusion is that it is necessary to study, and not wave slogans and look for excuses
                      5. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 13: 51
                        +2
                        And the conclusion is that you need to learninstead of waving slogans and seeking excuses
                        - it is right. Start by exploring the theory of free-falling ammunition.
                        As for numbers, the burden of proof lies with the slogan. Is this your slogan ?:
                        That combat experience disappeared along with the downed Luftwaffe aces drowned in La Manche and the sands of North Africa (Hans Joachim Marcel and Co.)

                        Where are the numbers? (he asked for the hundredth time .... with the same result ...)
                    2. Santa Fe
                      Santa Fe 14 January 2020 12: 25
                      -4
                      Yes, it’s clear where the instructions explain the buttons

                      The vast majority of fighter pilots (valid for the air forces of all countries) have not shot down a single aircraft. This is the benefit of all the instruction, advice, and instruction available to every student. The phenomenon of the appearance of ace pilots remains a mystery of combat aircraft. People on whom the effectiveness of the entire regiment rested. As a rule, aces became those who managed to survive in the first fights. After which professional intuition was already developed to know how to aim to shoot and bomb. And then they went into the gap.

                      If such a pilot died, the replacement was not soon
                      1. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 14 January 2020 13: 01
                        +3
                        words words words....

                        Oleg, where are the numbers? Where are the specific numbers for the surviving Luftwaffe pilots in the Battle of Britain and their participation in the attack on the USSR? What, in general, everyone died in La Manche ??? !!!!
          3. dmmyak40
            dmmyak40 14 January 2020 10: 35
            +2
            By the beginning of the war with the USSR, a large replenishment had come in the Luftwaffe - pilots who had just sat at the helm yesterday
            Maybe. Only what training did German beginners and ours go through? What was their raid? Shooting? Aerobatics? Confusion?
            Don't you see the difference? Or do not want to?
          4. Sandy
            Sandy 22 January 2020 14: 20
            +1
            We need to rejoice that there were few experienced German pilots on 22.06.41. Those who managed to gain experience - there they buried their experience in the English Channel

            By the beginning of the war with the USSR, a large replenishment had come in the Luftwaffe - pilots who had just sat at the helm yesterday

            Most likely, this is the one who was "buried in the waters of the English Channel", Horst Bohmann:
            https://warspot.ru/5679-poslednee-slovo-vozdushnogo-asa
        2. knn54
          knn54 12 January 2020 08: 48
          +7
          Britain was bombed symbolically (before the start of the Second World War). London, once or twice at most. Seriously, only Coventry. This is incomparable with what the Germans did in the USSR.
          They just hoped, at least, for the neutrality of the Anglo-Saxons. It is not for nothing that the islanders stubbornly did not declassify the documents of that period.
          The article is excellent. I want to add a little. The Germans had a point system. 1 point-single-engine aircraft, ... four-four-engine. Ie shot down two slow-moving TB-3-8 points! I.e.
          eight downed single-engine fighters.
          There was an article in some Western publication. Squadrons from the Rommel group almost without participating in the battles attributed a bunch of victories. EVERYTHING was disbanded.
          1. Vladimir Mashkov
            12 January 2020 14: 59
            +7
            Nikolay, I’ll disappoint you: about points - this is a myth.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 17: 39
              +4
              The falsity of Hartmann’s account is also confirmed by the number of IL-2 allegedly shot down by him, only 10 or 15, I don’t remember exactly, but this is the most frequently encountered plane over the front line, in theory!
          2. Alexey Z
            Alexey Z 13 January 2020 18: 37
            +1
            There really were points, but they did not count for airplanes. They were taken into account during awarding (such as shooting down a 4 engine bomber is more difficult than a 2 engine bomber or a fighter)
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              17 January 2020 12: 19
              +2
              Yes, you, Alexey, are absolutely right: there were points. When I say that points are a myth, I mean that points as victories are a myth. Thanks for the clarification.
      2. Alexey G
        Alexey G 12 January 2020 08: 01
        +11
        Against Soviet novice pilots, the bulk of the Luftwaffe fought the same inexperienced novices who began flying in 1941

        What is this passage for? To say that German novices inflicted a heavy defeat on the USSR in 1941? That is, it turns out we were worse than beginners? Who put this plus ???
        1. Santa Fe
          Santa Fe 12 January 2020 08: 07
          -15
          Quote: Alexey G
          To say that German novices inflicted a heavy defeat on the USSR in 1941?

          3500 pilots - Luftwaffe losses in battle for Britain

          Almost all of the German pilots who managed to gain experience in the 39-40s did not have time to survive before the war with the USSR (they were killed or captured)
          1. Alexey G
            Alexey G 12 January 2020 08: 21
            +12
            Oleg, where are these numbers ??? Again from the ceiling?
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              12 January 2020 15: 05
              +15
              Alexey, wang that not from the ceiling. From Zefirov and Co. I wrote about such supporters of "truth".
          2. Alexey G
            Alexey G 12 January 2020 08: 27
            +14
            Of course, all experienced German pilots died in the struggle for Britain !! The Germans lost everyone and recruited newcomers for the war with the Russians ??? Can you hear yourself Yes, this whole battle for Britain is nothing more than window dressing! As she walked, the Germans dragged their forces to the Bug and Neman! There was a major battle and the best experienced forces!
            1. andr6
              andr6 12 January 2020 18: 21
              -13
              Quote: Alexey G
              Yes, this whole battle for Britain is nothing more than window dressing!

              Nothing of the kind There was an attempt to crush the British from the air. Which failed.
              Quote: Alexey G
              As she walked, the Germans dragged their forces to the Bug and Neman!

              They began to drag everything there after the loss of the "Battle of Britain".
              Quote: Alexey G
              There was a major battle and the best experienced forces!

              There was, according to the Germans, a weak link.
              And the Germans as a whole were not mistaken in this.
              1. Alexey G
                Alexey G 13 January 2020 11: 37
                +2
                Nothing of the kind There was an attempt to crush the British from the air. Which failed.

                Respected! You can’t win a war only with air raids! Do you not understand this?
                Hitler probably never seriously planned to take Britain. This became clear when he released the British from Dunkirk. Read Erich Manstein! Their entire generals were indignant that Hitler did not bring the operation of encircling the French and English forces to complete annihilation, as was then repeatedly carried out in Soviet Russia. Hitler wanted to come to an agreement with the Anglo-Saxons, as he related himself to them, considered them Aryans, and formed his SS divisions from them. Then these air raids were invented! How a terrorist measure! Scare the British and no more. The most important thing was to lull Stalin. He, like you now, believed that Hitler wanted to attack Britain, that everything was serious there, but no. Even the British were waiting for the Germans to sail through the Lamans in fishing boats.
                They began to drag everything there after the loss of the "Battle of Britain".

                April 15 1941 of the year: night raid on Belfast - a large shipyard of the Navy ("Easter" raid [en]). About 200 Luftwaffe bombers dropped tons of conventional and incendiary bombs onto the city and shipyards. 955 people were killed, 1500 injured, half of the city, including most industrial facilities, was destroyed. This is an episode of the so-called Battle of Britain. April is the month! In 2 months the war will begin with the USSR! Do you seriously believe that Hitler managed to prepare for the operation of Brabaross in 2 months ??? And transfer your strength there? Divisions are not carried forward per day or week. To plan an operation of this magnitude takes a lot of time. The Germans used at least six months.

                There was, according to the Germans, a weak link.
                And the Germans as a whole were not mistaken in this.

                This passage does not stand up to criticism at all. To call the USSR a weak link ??? They were not mistaken ??? Are you so sure about this? And the results of the war with us do not tell you anything? After the battle for Britain in the Reichstag there were no charcoal inscriptions on the wall! Blitzkrieg died in the steppes near Stalingrad, and not in the sky over London!
                1. fghy
                  fghy 13 January 2020 12: 34
                  -20
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  You can’t win a war only with air raids! Do you not understand this?

                  You can easily. And Iraq and Serbia are a confirmation of this.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Hitler probably never seriously planned to take Britain.

                  Of course I didn’t plan. He did not need her. He planned to crush her from the air and force her to peace. What he could not do.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  it became clear when he released the English from Dunkirk.

                  He made a choice - to follow the originally approved plan (the British in this case went to Britain) and defeat the French. Or merge the Reich to the Franks and British already in 1940.
                  In 1940, he listened to the staff and the Reich on the Western Front, everything worked out.
                  In 1941, Hitler listened to the combatant, and the company of 1941, and with it the whole war with the USSR, the Reich failed.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Read Erich Manstein!

                  Never read German builders. Just because they are boobies. ALL. What they perfectly proved back in 1940 (in France). And confirmed, from 1941 to 1945.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Their entire generals were outraged by

                  BUILDING general. Those. Doodles with stripes on his underpants.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  as it was repeatedly carried out later in Soviet Russia.

                  Those. how the German company of 1941 proceeded on the Eastern fronts you are not aware of.
                  It is a pity.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  formed from them its SS divisions

                  He formed the SS from the Aryans. All Slavs, except for the Poles, he attributed to the Aryans.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  The most important thing was to lull Stalin.

                  The last thing anyone thought about was the native Tsar Dzhugashvili.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Even the British were waiting for the Germans to sail through the Lamans in fishing boats.

                  Of course. Everything in the world. Except Soviet.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  This is an episode of the so-called Battle of Britain. April is the month!

                  April 1941, is this a battle for Britain?
                  You somehow don’t know the story at all.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  To call the USSR a weak link ???

                  And how strong? The Bolsheviks began asking for support under the wing of the Anglo-Saxons at the end of June !!!!! 1941. And Sudoplatov, through the Bulgarian ambassador, on behalf of Beria, offered the Germans the Baltic states, Bessarabia, Belarus and Ukraine. He was also interested in what the Germans needed from the territory of the RSFSR and other republics.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Are you so sure about this?

                  Absolutely.
                  If Hitler had not listened to his combat drills, he would have ended the USSR, west of the Volga and the North. Dvina, back in 1941. And no one in the USSR could help.
                  But even so, without the support of the Anglo-Saxons, the USSR in the winter of 1941/42. would simply die of hunger. There was nothing to eat that winter. Nothing at all. And "Leningrad" then was happening throughout the territory controlled by the Bolsheviks. The victims of that secret famine number in the many millions. And this is also taking into account the supply of food by the Anglo-Saxons.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  And the results of the war with us do not tell you anything?

                  They say. September 24.09.1941, 2 the USSR merged the Soviet-German war (in the USSR it was called the Second World War and it went outside the framework of the 2MB) and entered the XNUMXMB on the side of the Anglo-Saxons. Lugger chestnuts from fire in Europe. In Asia, they were Chinese, in Africa, Ethiopians. Natives, there's nothing to be done.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  there were no charcoal inscriptions on the wall in the Reichstag!

                  You pay less attention to any external tinsel such as charcoal inscriptions and flags on the towers.
                  "Behold at the root" - Kozma Prutkov.
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Blitzkrieg died in the steppes near Stalingrad

                  Blitzkrieg died July 12.07.1941, XNUMX. It was on this day that the Germans WAS CANCELED the plan of Barbarossa.
                  1. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 13 January 2020 13: 10
                    +11
                    Oh my God! I caused an even greater nightmare from the depths! A whole sheet of liberals out! Just a nonsense fountain!
                    You can easily. And Iraq and Serbia are a confirmation of this.

                    Both ground troops were brought into Iraq and Serbia! Raids are a prelude! About
                    desert storm
                    you probably haven't heard ???
                    BUILDING general. Those. Doodles with stripes on his underpants.

                    I don’t understand what are you doing on VO if you write this?
                    And how strong? The Bolsheviks began asking for support under the wing of the Anglo-Saxons at the end of June !!!!! 1941. And Sudoplatov, through the Bulgarian ambassador, on behalf of Beria, offered the Germans the Baltic states, Bessarabia, Belarus and Ukraine. He was also interested in what the Germans needed from the territory of the RSFSR and other republics.

                    Is it generally from what well of mud is drawn?
                    USSR in the winter of 1941/42 just would die out of hunger. There was nothing to eat that winter.

                    Who you are??? I can’t even comment on this? Well, some quietly kiss the west in the ass, and you? Are you also doing this ideologically?
                    And yes! Battle of Britain (1940-1941)

                    The Battle of Britain (in Russia the name "Battle of England" is adopted) in the historical literature refers to the period of intensive air strikes by the German Air Force against Great Britain and the struggle of the British air forces to repel them (August 1940 - May 1941) in the Second World War.

                    Learn history, otherwise you will behold crookedly, not the root!
                2. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 13 January 2020 16: 06
                  +2
                  Quote: Alexey G
                  Hitler probably never seriously planned to take Britain. This became clear when he released the British from Dunkirk. Read Erich Manstein! Their entire generals were indignant that Hitler did not bring the operation of encircling the French and English forces to complete annihilation, as was then repeatedly carried out in Soviet Russia.

                  Mwa-ha-ha ... And it’s nothing that the main initiator and author of the famous "stop-order", which stopped the German offensive on the Allies pressed against the shore and eventually allowed them to evacuate from Dunkirk, was just the general - and not anyone- anything, and Herr Rundstedt himself. It was he who proved to Hitler the need for this order and eventually knocked out his visa. Moreover, by the time Hitler approved the "stop order", in fact, it had been being executed for XNUMX hours.
                  Do not read German memoirs at dinner. smile
                  1. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 13 January 2020 20: 49
                    0
                    Lesh I read The Lost Victories of E. Phon Manstein, where not a little is said about this. Where did you get information about Runstedt? Can you write
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 14 January 2020 13: 05
                      0
                      Quote: Alexey G
                      Lesh I read The Lost Victories of E. Phon Manstein, where not a little is said about this. Where did you get information about Runstedt? Can you write

                      Isaev's LJ ten years ago had a review of The Blitzkrieg Legend: The 1940 Campaign in the West by Karl-Heinz Frieser; John T. Greenwood (editor).
                      In some detail, Freezer analyzes the Dunkirk stop order, analyzing all the versions put forward. So, in his opinion, in fact, the initiator of the stop order was not Hitler, but the commander of Army Group A, von Rundstedt. The order, the content of which fully corresponded to the stop order, was issued in Army Group "A" the day before the Fuehrer's order. At that moment, the high command wanted to take all the tanks from Rundstedt and transfer them to Army Group B, without consulting the Fuehrer. Hitler learned about this from Rundstedt himself and boiled over. This order was canceled, and Rundstedt received carte blanche for all his actions, including the stop order. Initially, the stop order was dictated by concerns about the flanks.

                      We have about the fact that Hitler only approved the proposal of von Rundstedt, wrote Lopukhovsky / Cavalierchik:
                      On May 23, the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces, von Brauchitsch ordered to transfer the 4th Army from GA A to the subordination of GA B. (...) Von Rundstedt, of course, was greatly offended that he was immediately deprived of all mobile units and left with one infantry. When Hitler visited his headquarters the next day at 11.30, he immediately complained to him about von Brauchitsch. The Führer did not like at all that such an important decision was made without agreement with him. Irritated by such arbitrariness of the commander in chief of the ground forces, he immediately canceled his order, convincingly demonstrating to the entire military elite, "who is the boss in the house." Moreover, Hitler agreed with the pessimistic assessment of the situation, which von Rundstedt reported to him, and sanctioned the appearance of the famous “stop order”:
                      “The Führer ordered the offensive east of Arras to continue with the forces of the 8th and 2nd Army Corps in collaboration with the left wing of Army Group B in a north-west direction. North-west, Arras does not move further than the general line of Lap, Bethune, Er, Saint-Omer, Gravlin (line along the channel). On the contrary, the task of the troops of the western wing is to deploy all the mobile forces and force the enemy to break into the named defensive line that is favorable for us. ”
                      At the same time, Hitler left the final choice of the method and time of operations of the 4th Army with all its mobile units to von Rundstedt.

                      © Leo Lopukhovsky, Boris Kavalerchik. June. 1941. Programmed defeat.
                      1. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 14 January 2020 19: 27
                        -1
                        Thank! Very interesting and detailed.
                        However, this question, nevertheless, is rather debatable than resolved! Even if Runstedt expressed some concerns about the flanks and some pessimism, this does not mean that he could authorize a stop to the offensive! Hitler was a rather sophisticated manipulator of consciousness. Perhaps Runstedt dropped a phrase saying that you need to be careful, save energy or something like that, and Hitler only needed it, because he wanted to let the British go, have mercy on them, as if he were not Corporal, but Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire! It looks like they say we had a good fight, and now I reach out to my opponent!
                        Hitler always heard what he wanted to hear! For example, when he was recommended to withdraw the troops of Paulus, while there was such an opportunity, he wanted to listen to the voices of those few who said that the Russian offensive might not be so serious. And when it turned out that it was very serious, he said that you see, now they can’t leave, because they don’t have enough fuel and that Paulus fears for the flanks!
                        The high command always has different approaches and a different assessment of the situation. It is up to the Supreme to affirm one and reject the other. In this sense, I am inclined to believe that the Dunkirk decision was naturally Hitler's decision. He is a man of will, and if he wanted to destroy Britain, he should not have shown them a single drop of pity. Moreover, they were very vulnerable, crowded and pressed to the water. Why did he decide to save his strength? Especially tanks? Then they could not swim across the Channel, and there was no fleet for this purpose! Dunkirk’s losses there could be replenished by building new ones and repairing the battered ones, but the 400 thousand group that sailed away on the other side is a force! Do not have it from the British, and the British could be taken with the help of paratroopers, as in Crete. The tanks had to be protected for another matter, of which Rundstedt certainly did not know anything then! Not by the Seine hat laughing
                      2. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 15 January 2020 12: 33
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexey G
                        However, this question, nevertheless, is rather debatable than resolved! Even if Runstedt expressed some concerns about the flanks and some pessimism, this does not mean that he could authorize a stop to the offensive!

                        You know, the vaunted German ordnung, even in the Wehrmacht, was in fact quite arbitrary. It is enough to recall how von Leeb attacked Leningrad in September 1941.
                        According to Directive No. 35 he was ordered:
                        On the northeastern front, together with Finnish corps advancing on the Karelian Isthmus, encircle enemy forces operating in the Leningrad region (also capture Shlisselburg) so that no later than 15.9 a significant part of the mobile forces and formations of the 1st air fleet, especially the 8th air corps , release for Center Army Group. However, first of all, it is necessary to strive for the complete encirclement of Leningrad, at least from the east, and, if weather conditions permit, to conduct a major air attack on it. It is especially important to destroy water supply stations.

                        That is, von Leeb's task was to strike towards the Finns between Lake Ladoga and Leningrad, while completely surrounding Leningrad. At the same time, the operation was supposed to be completed no later than September 14, in order to have time to transfer the motorized mechanical connections from the "Sever" to the "Center".
                        What did von Leeb do? That's right - he put M120x250 on the Directive signed by the Fuhrer, and instead of hitting the city bypassing the Neva, he began to break into the direction of Pushkin - Krasnoye Selo - Pulkovo, striking directly at the city. With a predictable result, the Germans were able to break through the Krasnogvardeisky UR, but there were no sufficient forces to develop success, and instead of victorious occupation of the city, German formations were bogged down at the next frontier of Soviet defense. In addition, the advancing German units also got into the effective fire zone of the coastal and naval artillery of the base of Kronstadt.
                        At the same time, von Leeb also thwarted the timing of the withdrawal of 4 TGRs - on September 17, 1 panzerdivisia fought in the Pushkin area.

                        Returning to von Rundstedt and May 23, 1940: he had some abstract flank concerns, but quite a concrete counterattack of the Allies at Arras,
                        During which the thick-skinned "Matilda" went like a knife through butter through a regular German anti-tank gunnery and trampled on motorized infantry and tanks. It got to the point that Rommel personally had to search and collect weapons for the new anti-tank defense line.
                        Despite modest actual results, psychologically this counterattack had a rather strong influence on the German commanders. The main alarmist turned out to be Kleist, who announced heavy losses and that, until the threat was eliminated, Arras could not advance further. Moreover, Kleist’s information reached right up to Halder.
                        May 23 1940 year.
                        17.30 - Guildenfeldt: Report on the concerns of Kleist. He thinks that he is not able to fully accomplish his task until the crisis in the Arras region is eliminated. Losses in tanks - up to 50%. I reported that the crisis will be overcome within 48 hours. I am aware of how difficult this task is. It is necessary to demand strength from the troops.
                      3. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 15 January 2020 14: 00
                        0
                        Yes, I read a little of your reference to Freezer "Blitzkrieg Legend". And about the Matilda strike, and about Rommel, who shot them with 88mm anti-aircraft guns!
                        At one time I had read the Wehrmacht generals and I know that they were inclined to complain and be careful. This is understandable, because no one wanted to take responsibility for failure alone. Big eggs are needed for this, but not everyone has them.
                        However, even a cursory analysis of the situation in the Dunkirk region made it possible to understand that no local blow from the means left by the British and French would help them strategically. Only the agony will be slightly delayed. Well, let’s say Matilda would even break somewhere, so what? Gasoline is over, they are behind the Germans! What's next? Remember our counterattacks at 41m? Tanks without fuel were abandoned on the road, the crews at best left to partisan!
                        Strategically cut off from supply bases, frightened by the Germans, the group could no longer do anything in strategic terms. This is a half boiler. Such a conclusion can even be made by an amateur.
                        The Germans wanted to eliminate the boiler with minimal blood. This is a fact! They cherished the tanks! This is also a fact. But for what??? They could defeat the British, only on the continent! Here they are their enemies! Nearby. Obviously, there is a chance to kill them here and now, while they are trapped. Where is the logic?
                        There is only one conclusion! The British are not a real enemy, but only an intractable neighbor. The true enemy of the USSR. Further events have confirmed this.
                        In the offensive near Moscow, German generals also complained about very specific problems with winter lubrication, warm uniforms, terrible roads, heavy losses in tanks and people, with immense Russian open spaces and new divisions, heavy Russian tanks, even more terrible than the Matilda KV and T34! ...
                        But Hitler mercilessly drove them forward! Take Moscow by Christmas to at least sleep but take!
                        Just like he drove them to the Caucasus and Stalingrad, where they mercilessly lost their tanks on the streets of the city! Complained, but lost and stubbornly crawled to the Volga! And this is because the Führer needed it so much! And he spat on complaints and fears when the troops fulfilled his wishes!

                        In the end, remember the Kiev boiler! It was much larger than in Dunkirk! There seemed to be 600 thousand of ours. And ours, unlike the French and the British, did not give up and went on breakthroughs to their own, to their rear!
                        The Englishman had the rear behind Lamanche. The Germans did not skimp on losses! They methodically and quickly crushed the boiler to pieces, then to parts, and so on, they didn’t destroy them all, because they needed Moscow and the summer was over and they didn’t give a damn!
                      4. mikstepanenko
                        mikstepanenko 17 January 2020 23: 46
                        +1
                        There is another factor that you probably don’t know about. Intelligence service. Canaris back in 18, a naval lieutenant was recruited by the British. In South America, where the ship he served was interned. Not for money, but for returning to Germany. And he provided a report in which he repeatedly exaggerated the forces available at that time on the Island. As a result, the landing operation was canceled. The connection of Canaris with the British intelligence was unearthed much later, for which he was hanged.
                      5. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 17 January 2020 23: 59
                        0
                        No, I just heard about it, but I am still skeptical about it. Canaris led some kind of his game. He was associated with the conspirators of 1944. But I doubt that being at such a post acted only as an agent. He could lead both a double and a triple game and with the knowledge of Hitler too. Intelligence is a tricky thing.
                        Another thing is that neither Hitler nor Stalin trusted the intelligence data very much. Intelligence warned Stalin, but he did not hear it or did not want to hear it. Hitler also did not particularly listen to Abwehr. Almost the entire German general staff was against an attack on the USSR and a war on two fronts, but Hitler convinced them that it would be better.
                  2. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 13 January 2020 20: 58
                    +1
                    The victory in Northern Belgium was not as complete as it could have been. According to Churchill’s information, the enemy managed to transport 338 people (of which 226 French) through Dunkirk, although he lost all his heavy weapons and other equipment. This is due to the intervention of Hitler, who twice delayed the advancing tank formations: the first time during their advance to the coast, the second time before Dunkirk. Three reasons are given in support of the last order, which built the British Army a golden bridge across the English Channel. Firstly, Hitler allegedly wanted to give the tanks a rest before the Second phase of the campaign in France, in view of the fact that Keitel informed him that in the Dunkirk area there was a tank inaccessible area. Another reason is that Goering allegedly guaranteed the Führer that the aviation itself would be able to prevent the British from evacuating from Dunkirk. Given Goering’s desire to enhance his prestige and his love of boasting, I consider this statement to be quite possible on his part. Be that as it may, both of these arguments, from a military point of view, were untenable. As a third reason, they argue that Hitler - as he allegedly said in an interview with Colonel General von Rundstedt - deliberately let the British evacuate, as he believed that this would bring closer the opportunity to negotiate with them. In any case, the fact that the British army was given the opportunity to evacuate from Dunkirk is Hitler's decisive mistake. She prevented him from later deciding on the Invasion of England and then gave the British the opportunity to continue the war in Africa and Italy.

                    This is page 117 of the original text by Erich Mashtein
                    Lesch Rundstedt could not solve such issues as the destruction of the British army! Only the Fuhrer could make such a decision. And his subsequent actions just explain it.
                    1. Karen
                      Karen 13 January 2020 21: 15
                      -1
                      Rumor has it that there was an agreement; the British are allowed to evacuate, and England "gives" Norway for this ...
          3. Farewell
            Farewell 12 January 2020 09: 57
            +4
            Not pilots, but members of flight crews. Pilots, respectively, about half.
          4. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 January 2020 11: 52
            +6
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Almost all of the German pilots who managed to gain experience in 39-40 years before the war with the USSR did not have time to live (killed or captured)

            And WHAT was between 1940 and June 1941?
            WHERE did they die, thousands? belay do you even understand what you are writing?
            nope .....
            1. Deniska999
              Deniska999 12 January 2020 15: 52
              0
              So, the commenter clarified: the battle for Britain. The Germans lost about 2 thousand aircraft.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 12 January 2020 18: 09
                +1
                Quote: Deniska999
                So, the commenter clarified: the battle for Britain. The Germans lost about 2 thousand aircraft.

                the battle for Britain ended in OCTOBER 1940

                WHERE almost all experienced German pilots died between 1940 and June 1941 ?? belay
          5. victor50
            victor50 12 January 2020 19: 14
            +3
            Quote: Santa Fe
            3500 pilots - Luftwaffe losses in battle for Britain

            Almost all of the German pilots who managed to gain experience in the 39-40s did not have time to survive before the war with the USSR (they were killed or captured)

            Wow! And who did the Germans fly in the last days of the Battle of Britain? Single remains of airplanes and pilots !? lol
          6. Dooplet11
            Dooplet11 13 January 2020 12: 12
            +2
            Almost all of the German pilots who managed to gain experience in the 39-40s did not have time to survive before the war with the USSR (they were killed or captured)
            - I do not believe. Can I bring the payroll? Who when joined the battle, when he died?
        2. Octopus
          Octopus 12 January 2020 08: 19
          -6
          Quote: Alexey G
          That is, it turns out we were worse than beginners?

          Is this any news for you? Order "On the establishment of a training system and the procedure for recruiting higher educational institutions of the air force and improving the quality of flight and technical personnel" No. 080 of March 3, 1941 established the standard for cadets of flight schools at 30 (thirty) hours.

          What is much worse, such an attitude towards their pilots in the Red Army Air Force did not go to the end of the war, when it was already possible to think a little bit about the quality, it would seem.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 13 January 2020 16: 10
            0
            Quote: Octopus
            Order "On the establishment of a training system and the procedure for recruiting higher educational institutions of the air force and improving the quality of flight and technical personnel" No. 080 of March 3, 1941 established the standard for cadets of flight schools at 30 (thirty) hours.

            This is the norm for cadets. Before combatant combat pilots, the raid was still better - but only for border districts and the Far East.
            The situation is better in the troops of the Far Eastern Front and the Trans-Baikal District, mainly because they had the ability to give more air raids, having fuel. FEF has a flying time of more than 100 hours per pilot, according to ZabVO - more than 70 hours of flying per pilot, and some internal districts have 35 to 40 hours per pilot.
            © Smushkevich, from "Materials of the meeting of the senior leadership of the Red Army on December 23-31, 1940"
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 13 January 2020 17: 54
              -3
              The thesis was for beginners. In the same order there were cadet pilots, they had a better touch. In theory.

              But the essence is one. That mechanized corps, that battleships, that art, that aviation. The invincible and legendary that the USSR of the 41st year dreamed of for itself, he did not pull at all. On paper, three Wehrmacht, in practice it is clear that.

              They could recruit people for thousands of fighters, give them training aircraft, give them gas for these aircraft - no. And the bourgeoisie have massively radio-controlled targets, God forgive me.
              1. Alf
                Alf 13 January 2020 19: 17
                +2
                Quote: Octopus
                And the bourgeois have massively radio-controlled targets,

                An example, please.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 13 January 2020 21: 43
                  -4
                  https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioplane_OQ-2

                  Another conversation is that my phrase is constructed as if the targets were used in the preparation of the pilots. They were used mainly by anti-aircraft gunners, pilots fired at towed cones, rarely reinforced with armored cobras.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 14 January 2020 13: 18
                0
                Quote: Octopus
                And the bourgeoisie have massively radio-controlled targets, God forgive me.

                Do not poison the soul ...
                Regarding aerial firing. We teach cone shooting at speeds of 200 - 250 [km per hour], because at high speeds the cones come off.
                © the same presentation by Smushkevich
        3. Lipchanin
          Lipchanin 12 January 2020 11: 02
          +1
          Quote: Alexey G
          Who put this plus ???

          Even more surprising are the cons that put you down
      3. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 08: 16
        +7
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Against Soviet novice pilots, the bulk of the Luftwaffe fought the same inexperienced novices who began flying in 1941

        Beginners, but not the same. A 41-year-old German recruit usually had a flying time of 400 hours (200+ in school, 200+ in preparatory units). Plus Hitler's DOSAAF with youthful glider schools, which gave, including, Hartmann.
        1. qQQQ
          qQQQ 12 January 2020 09: 59
          +13
          Quote: Octopus
          Beginners, but not the same.

          I’ll support you, it's hard to call such newcomers. But in fairness, I must add that in the initial period of the Second World War, our bombers and attack aircraft flew without cover, the DBA often engaged in attacking German columns, while incurring huge losses from German fighter aircraft. Regarding how many times their aces were shot down, they just did not try to land the plane at any cost, Hartman himself wrote that his task was to fly over the front line, and then in the event of any malfunction, he parachuted. Calling the Germans jackals, well, it's overkill, everyone is fighting for victory and nobility doesn’t smell like that, and until the middle of 43, German tactics were very effective, we adopted a lot from them, and we also did free hunting at the end of the war (they spies, and we have scouts). What I agree with is that it was with great difficulty that we grind their Luftwaffe.
          1. Vladimir Mashkov
            12 January 2020 15: 15
            +4
            I agree with your comment. As for the "jackals", after all, I focused on jackal tactics and methods. And war, yes, a dirty business. Not done with white gloves. So is politics.
            1. qQQQ
              qQQQ 12 January 2020 21: 59
              -1
              Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
              As for the "jackals", after all, I focused on jackal tactics and methods.

              I meant that just tactics in war can be anything, if it brings success, and the "free hunt" was quite effective in terms of destroying enemy pilots and aircraft, and as our aces appeared, we also began to actively use it ...
              1. Dooplet11
                Dooplet11 13 January 2020 12: 18
                +3
                "free hunting" was quite effective in terms of destroying enemy pilots and aircraft
                - For the Air Force, there may be the only measure of efficiency - the provision of ground forces. As a result, the Luftwaffe did not defend its ground forces by "free hunting" and lost the battle for the sky.
                1. qQQQ
                  qQQQ 13 January 2020 15: 19
                  -1
                  Quote: Dooplet11
                  For the Air Force, there may be the only measure of effectiveness - the support of ground forces.

                  You can’t argue with this, but you can move towards this goal in different ways, and one of these areas was just free hunting (as the most effective method with the least losses to destroy as many enemy pilots as possible). If this were not effective, then our aces Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and others would not be engaged in this.
                  1. Dooplet11
                    Dooplet11 13 January 2020 15: 50
                    +3
                    , and one of such areas was just free hunting
                    - key, - "one of".
                    as the most effective method with the least losses to destroy as many enemy pilots as possible). If this were not effective, then our aces Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and others would not be engaged in this.
                    - in order for the method to ensure its least loss per enemy pilot destroyed, external conditions are also needed in the form of general air supremacy. Otherwise, this method of effectively ensuring the actions of ground forces is losing its effectiveness. What the Luftwaffe and demonstrated. In addition, it is necessary to destroy the pilots more than the enemy can afford to reproduce, otherwise the method is generally useless.
                    1. qQQQ
                      qQQQ 13 January 2020 16: 44
                      +1
                      Quote: Dooplet11
                      external conditions are also necessary in the form of general dominance in the air

                      Again, I do not argue, at the beginning of the war we simply did not have the opportunity to send pilots to the CO, only when we dominated the air they began to practice. I only emphasize that any tactic is good if it even brings victory to a victory, and the more varied the way the database is maintained, the more effective the army is.
                      1. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 13 January 2020 16: 55
                        +3
                        So it turns out that the presence of free hunting as a tactical device is not the presence of efficiency and success. This is just one of the tactics. Which may not be effective. wink
                      2. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 13 January 2020 17: 00
                        +1
                        Yes, I agree with everything, I am against the fact that any tactical device is declared dishonest, and moreover, we willingly use it when certain conditions are met.
                      3. Dooplet11
                        Dooplet11 13 January 2020 17: 15
                        +2
                        hi
                        I agree. The very concept of honesty / dishonesty does not apply to tactics. War is not a sports tournament.
          2. Octopus
            Octopus 12 January 2020 16: 21
            -18
            Quote: qqqq
            What I agree with is that it was with great difficulty that we grind their Luftwaffe.

            1. It was not "we".
            2. And did not grind. The last one shot down by Hartmann is May 8th.
            3. Air Force of the Red Army - were just terribly bad. For example, near Iasi, the spring-summer of the 44th, JG 52 with Hartmann opposed 6 fighter divisions (12th Guards Iad, 294th Iads, 302nd Iads, 9th Guards Iads, 205th Iads, 304th Iads). Moreover, not about any domination the Soviet side over Iasi is not necessary to speak, at best about superiority.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 17: 34
              +6
              How is it not ground? By the year 44, things had hardly flown, and bombers were not massively transferred to the FV-190 from a good life.
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 12 January 2020 17: 56
                -8
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                By the year 44, things had hardly flown, and bombers were not massively transferred to the FV-190 from a good life.

                Have the Germans transplanted from an airplane of absolutely clear sky to information security? Yes, grind so grind.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 07
                  +5
                  So the sky, at least for Stuck, was closed, and Stuck is much more effective as a bomber than PV. Already from the age of 44, the Germans practically did not bomb with the large forces of the Heinkels and Junkers. Even as grind.
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 17
                    -12
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    at least for Stuck, they shut down, and Stuck is much more effective as a bomber than PV

                    Yes, the freebie is over.
                    Quote: Octopus
                    at best about excellence.
                  2. andr6
                    andr6 12 January 2020 18: 41
                    -20
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Already from the age of 44, the Germans practically did not bomb with the large forces of the Heinkels and Junkers. Even as grind.

                    Grind. But the Anglo-Saxons.
                    For the entire duration of the war (from September 01.09.1939, 08.05.1945 to May 28, XNUMX) on the Eastern Front, the Germans lost only XNUMX% of the aircraft. The rest were lost by them on other fronts.
                    At the same time, already from 1943 on the Eastern Front, the Germans fought almost exclusively one young growth. Except for a few "roving squadrons" of aces, who impressed everyone so much that they are mentioned in a heap of stories and books. Moreover, written in the USSR.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 50
                      +5
                      What, and did the bombers grind? Bish, yes, know the measure.
                      1. andr6
                        andr6 12 January 2020 18: 52
                        -10
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What, and did the bombers grind?

                        There was nothing to cover the bombers. And without cover, the Germans, unlike the Red Army, did not fly.
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 57
                        +10
                        Quote: andr6
                        There was nothing to cover the bombers. And without cover, the Germans, unlike the Red Army, did not fly.
                        Sadness is stupid nonsense.
                        Quote: andr6
                        For the entire duration of the war (from September 01.09.1939, 08.05.1945 to May 28, XNUMX) on the Eastern Front, the Germans lost only XNUMX% of the aircraft.
                        Source bring this stupidity. Well, write about a submarine, but about aviation !?
                      3. andr6
                        andr6 12 January 2020 18: 58
                        -13
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Source bring this stupidity.

                        If this is stupidity, then why do you need its source?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but about aviation !?

                        There is no arguing against numbers.
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 19: 10
                        +6
                        Numbers sucked from a finger?
                        Quote: andr6
                        There is no arguing against numbers.

                        Quote: andr6
                        If this is stupidity, then why do you need its source?
                        I want to make fun, maybe.
                      5. andr6
                        andr6 12 January 2020 19: 13
                        -14
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Numbers sucked from a finger?

                        Out of him.
                        From a finger.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I want to make fun, maybe.

                        It is you who practice the cat at home. With me, it won’t work.
                        Calm down already. The Germans lost 2/3 of the manpower on their Eastern Front. Does it suit you?
                      6. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 19: 19
                        +7
                        Quote: andr6
                        It is you who practice the cat at home. With me, it won’t work.
                        What is it? The cat is not afraid of me, but you were afraid. Just bring the source.
                        Quote: andr6
                        The Germans lost 2/3 of the manpower on their Eastern Front. Does it suit you?
                        At least 6/7, there is also such data, which is much more truthful, moreover, English.
                      7. andr6
                        andr6 12 January 2020 19: 29
                        -17
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        At least 6/7, there is also such data, which is much more truthful, moreover, English.

                        3,57 million Germans of the Reich perished on the Eastern Front. And 1,75 million Germans of the Reich died on other fronts.
                        At the same time, German Germans died less than the Germans of the Reich, not 5,32 million people, but 4.44 million people.
                        According to the data of the USSR State Planning Commission declassified in 2017, about 19 million people were killed by Soviet troops.
                      8. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 03: 50
                        +8
                        Quote: andr6
                        3,57 million Germans of the Reich perished on the Eastern Front. And 1,75 million Germans of the Reich died on other fronts.
                        At the same time, German Germans died less than the Germans of the Reich, not 5,32 million people, but 4.44 million people.
                        The tales of the Berlin forest, but if you suddenly believe them, then the German 15 million, out of 20 million mobilized, where have gone? Self-absorbed? And this is not remembering the Volkssturm and Todt's army. Although, as an anti-Soviet, which means a Russophobe, he will remember this, he will not be allowed "mind, honor and conscience".
                      9. The comment was deleted.
                      10. Operator
                        Operator 13 January 2020 11: 53
                        +6
                        Quote: fghy
                        Figures from Overmans ... They are known by name

                        Yes, yes, yes: especially from January to May 1945 laughing
                      11. fghy
                        fghy 13 January 2020 12: 56
                        -11
                        Quote: Operator
                        Yes, yes, yes: especially from January to May 1945

                        All German losses are known to them by name.
                        The Germans are a nation. And a nation honors and values ​​its members. And knows them by name.
                      12. Operator
                        Operator 13 January 2020 13: 08
                        +7
                        The German nation crap thoroughly in 1945 with its own order, accounting, honor, line of the Nibelungs, etc.

                        What Ukrainians have yet to bully
                      13. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 13: 49
                        -11
                        Quote: Operator
                        The German nation crap thoroughly in 1945

                        Well, everything has its pros and cons.
                        1. Most Germans changed one of the worst governments of the twentieth century, Hitler, to one of the best, Adenauer-Erhard. At the same time, the Soviet people, for example, remained with their mustachioed effective manager as they were.
                        2. As a result of a rather sad development of events, the Germans have no discussion of whether Adolf was an effective manager, whether he accepted Germany with a plow, and left with a ballistic missile, or whether he was basically a ghoul. But in other places, a similar discussion has been going on with great enthusiasm for 70 years.
                      14. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 14: 06
                        +5
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Most Germans changed one of the worst governments of the twentieth century, Hitler, to one of the best, Adenauer-Erhard.
                        What, directly she changed, or helped, in some way? Through bloody snot in 1945?
                      15. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 14: 32
                        -7
                        Well, they helped or not, but the whiskered bastard was replaced by decent people.
                      16. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 13 January 2020 16: 14
                        +3
                        Quote: fghy
                        All German losses are known to them by name.

                        More precisely, all known to the Germans German losses are known to them by name.
                        As for the official German documentation on losses, already in the second half of 1944 it became fragmented, and in 1945 it was often completely absent even among the army men.
                      17. mikstepanenko
                        mikstepanenko 18 January 2020 00: 08
                        0
                        What, and the victims of the bombing of Dresden are known by name? Despite the fact that there were up to two million unaccounted refugees in the city. From which there were only "shadows on the asphalt", as in the atomic bomb in Hiroshima.
                      18. Nastia makarova
                        Nastia makarova 13 January 2020 15: 29
                        0
                        actually Germans died more at the front
            2. qQQQ
              qQQQ 12 January 2020 22: 05
              +1
              Quote: Octopus
              It was not "we".

              Yes, it is precisely we - the USSR, together with the allies. The last one shot down does not say anything at all, or rather, only that the Germans still had pilots, but they could not influence something and no one claimed that we destroyed all who could fly at all. And the Germans at Iasi something could? Maybe this was the role of fighter aircraft, so that the enemy could not do anything?
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 12 January 2020 22: 43
                -11
                Quote: qqqq
                And the Germans at Iasi something could? Maybe this was the role of fighter aircraft, so that the enemy could not do anything?

                Yes, you are absolutely right.

                In May-June, as discussed, the Germans thwarted the Yasso-Chisinau operation of the Red Army with triple superiority in the forces of the Soviet side.

                Naturally, the most honest Soviet historians somehow forgot all this fuss (which, in terms of the scale of the involved forces and losses, corresponded approximately to the Ardennes). According to the Soviet version, the Yasso-Kishenev operation began at the end of August, and what Konev and Malinovsky did from March to August there is good news.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 03: 56
                  +5
                  Quote: Octopus
                  In May-June, what was discussed, the Germans thwarted the Iasi-Kishinev operation of the Red Army with threefold superiority in the forces of the Soviet side
                  Or maybe it was a lack of preparation for the offensive, a powerful prepared defense line, and even in the foothills, although of course these are such trifles, the offensive only thwarted the Luftwaffe, there is nothing to think.
                  It is one of the most successful Soviet operations during the Great Patriotic War, is one of the "ten Stalinist strikes." It ended with the victory of the Red Army, the liberation of the Moldavian SSR and the complete defeat of the enemy. Some Western European historians call this operation the Second Iasi-Chisinau Operation
                  It looks like you are "some Western European historian" laughing .
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 13 January 2020 06: 20
                    -10
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    maybe it was a lack of preparation for the offensive, a powerful prepared defense line, and even in the foothills, although of course

                    Quite possible. But qqqq gave its formulation of the effectiveness of fighter aircraft, and it suddenly came up too.
                    1. qQQQ
                      qQQQ 13 January 2020 09: 23
                      +2
                      Quote: Octopus
                      But qqqq gave its wording

                      I gave the wording of the fact that I have never seen that the operation was frustrated by the Luftwaffe, and you do not have to pull the owl on the globe. And again, the Germans were not whipping boys, and the war continued for a long time and there were both successes and failures, but this does not in any way change the fact of the complete superiority of the USSR over Germany since 44.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 13 January 2020 12: 06
                        +5
                        Quote: qqqq
                        the Germans were not whipping boys

                        Were - in the Vistula-Oder operation, when the Red Army passed 180 km in 20 days (9 km per day).

                        For comparison - the Wehrmacht traveled 320 km from the Soviet border to Smolensk in 45 days (7 km per day)

                      2. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 13 January 2020 15: 10
                        +3
                        Quote: Operator
                        Were - in the Vistula-Oder operation, when the Red Army passed 180 km in 20 days (9 km per day).

                        I repeat, the Red Army in 44 years and beyond completely surpassed the Wehrmacht in everything, and the brilliant Vistula-Oder operation was proof of this, but until the Victory the Germans remained a very serious and dangerous enemy. And I want to remind you that even in the spring of 45 parts of the spacecraft fell into the environment.
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 13 January 2020 15: 35
                        +7
                        I will repeat with pleasure: "The German nation was completely crap in 1945 with its own Ordung, accounting, honor, the Nibelungen line" - that is. in the comments, it was a question of the complete collapse in 1945 of the organized resistance of the Germans in all senses: mobilization (conscription of old people and children into the militia, throwing unlearned military cadets into battle), technical (riveting surrogates on the knee and release of undeveloped wunderwaves), logistic (overcrowding of roads military equipment, which the IL-2 burned with pleasure), registration (they simply beat them to count the losses of military and civilians), moral-strong-willed (surrender of reservists on the same line of the Nibelungen), political (mass executions and hanging of militias and reservists by forces SS and punitive detachments of the NSDAP), etc. etc.
                      4. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 13 January 2020 16: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Operator
                        I will repeat with pleasure: "The German nation was completely crap in 1945

                        In fact, it’s correct, but the formulations are very categorical, all the same, far from backward countries (the USSR, the USA, Britain) fought against them and taking into account the time of their resistance, it’s not worth putting them in wimps and throwing their caps.
                      5. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 18: 15
                        -4
                        Quote: qqqq
                        the wording is very categorical

                        Quote: Operator
                        complete collapse in 1945 of organized resistance of the Germans in every sense

                        The last German WWII boiler is Bautzen. 20th of April of the 45th year. Gobbled up the 7th guards mk and 294th SD 1 Konev UV.
                      6. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 14 January 2020 09: 28
                        +2
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The last German WWII boiler is Bautzen. 20th of April of the 45th year. Gobbled up the 7th guards mk and 294th SD 1 Konev UV.

                        Therefore, I am against the fact that the Germans are reduced to the level of whipping boys, until the last they remained a very dangerous enemy. Reducing the power of Germany, we thereby humiliate ourselves, who defeated probably the most powerful enemy in the history of wars.
                      7. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 15 January 2020 13: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The last German WWII boiler is Bautzen. 20th of April of the 45th year. Gobbled up the 7th guards mk and 294th SD 1 Konev UV.

                        They forgot about the 254th SD - she fought in Bautzen along with the 7th Guards. And her 929 cn from the environment did not come out.
                        The 254th Infantry Division, encircled in Bautzen, suffered heavy losses in a ten-day battle. According to the combat report of the headquarters of the division No. 00127 to 19.00 21.4 there were 4072 people in the formation (officers 596, sergeants 945, privates 2531), 5 SU-76, 76-mm divisional guns - 15, 122-mm howitzers - 15, 45-mm anti-tank guns - 22, 120-mm mortars - 12, 82-mm mortars - 42. After battles in the encirclement, the division was greatly thinned. According to the combat report No. 00130 of the division’s headquarters, by 17.00:30.4.45 on 2484 there were only 452 people (officers 654, sergeants 1378, privates 76), 9-mm divisional guns - 122, 9-mm howitzers - 45, 9-mm guns - 120, 11-mm mortars - 82, 29-mm mortars - 273 {7}. The severity of the fighting is eloquently testified by the report of the division commander, addressed to the command of the 21th Guards. mechanized corps on April 1945, 929: “3 joint ventures with 791/929 ap didn’t leave the encirclement, according to reports, the regiment’s personnel died in the first (erratum, more correctly“ unequal ”? - AI) fight with the enemy. Together with 791 cn there was his banner and banner XNUMX ap. ”
                        © Isaev
                  2. Vladimir Mashkov
                    13 January 2020 13: 26
                    +1
                    ABOUT! And you noticed it! I told him this already (below in the text). And he wrote in the article, he knew that they would not sit quietly while exposing their idols, they would definitely start throwing out OWN (Western) "truth".
      4. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 January 2020 11: 47
        0
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Most experienced German pilots and aces participating in battles with British aviation in 1939-40, in the battle for Britain and battles over North Africa, by the time of the attack on the USSR were ... DEAD

        Decipher what the "majority" is, what the "experienced" is: how much was before, how much after the sowing of Africa and how much came to 22,06,1941.

        Otherwise ...... request No.
      5. Leaning
        Leaning 12 January 2020 23: 30
        +2
        oh well)) compare the raid of our and their cadets, tactics of battle and the capabilities of technology at the beginning of the war ...
        1. Schekn Irtch
          Schekn Irtch 13 January 2020 12: 31
          -6
          That's right, for felt boots like me, it's enough just to compare our large-scale equipment (almost any) with the Western one, from the beginning of the 20th century to the present day. Well, the historical phrase "we paid for the horses with gold, and women give birth to sodat" alas, is relevant in our country across the entire range of modern and contemporary history.
      6. tatarin1972
        tatarin1972 13 January 2020 20: 56
        +2
        Where are you from?! Hopefully not from Ukraine or the Baltics. Then all your nonsense can be written on not literacy in this matter. All the quirks, I spoke with the veterans of the Luftwaffe, do not count. Those "funny" grandfathers wrote down everything that got into the lens of the machine gun. Well, yes, you are more interested in the losses of the Luftwaffe on the western front ?! The best ace of the Royal Air Force (RAF)), it seems like he shot down 51 Luftwaffe aircraft, that's just the tally of victories in the Royal Air Force (RAF)), a quarter of a victory, a half of a victory, somehow not in the tune.
      7. 73bor
        73bor 25 January 2020 15: 08
        0
        Another myth about the poor training of our pilots, the fact of the matter is that in the USSR there was a whole system of training and hundreds of thousands of pilots in reserve. No one will send a young pilot to the reserve regiment from the school without the appropriate flight hours, and then prepare and fly on the appropriate type of aircraft in the reserve regiment, and then prepare and take off directly to the unit. Even in the most severe periods of the war, the system did not change.
    2. BAI
      BAI 12 January 2020 15: 31
      +6
      The reports were processed by professionals:
      One side:
      the figures should be treated critically, since it turned out that the department of Dr. Goebbels “had a hand” in drawing up the final report for June 22. In the summer of 158, Lieutenant X. Stein from the Luftwaffe propaganda company fell into Soviet captivity, showing that the data received from the air corps was processed in an unusual way. If one of the corps lost 1944 aircraft, the other - 35, and the third, say, 12, then the summary reported the total losses of 10 aircraft. According to the ideologists of the German propaganda machine, this would not have allowed the “sources of information” to establish the truth and should have encouraged the commanders to continue fighting with the Russians with less casualties. Stein also said that he was instructed not to consider the missing crews lost: they could still return {35}.

      At the same time, on the other:
      Data on 120 German planes shot down on August 23, 1942 over Stalingrad, 145 aircraft on June 2 on Kursk, especially 400 at the beginning of the battles over the Kursk Bulge are not supported by any documents at all.

      Khazanov D. B. 1941. War in the air. Bitter lessons. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2006 .-- 416 p. - (World War II: Unknown War). Circulation 6000 copies.
  2. Olddetractor
    Olddetractor 12 January 2020 06: 38
    +9
    Thank you for the article. I support the position of the author
  3. andrewkor
    andrewkor 12 January 2020 06: 48
    +15
    In my favorite alternative cycle "The Sea Wolf" by Vlad Savin, among other things, E. Hartman is also caricatured with the call sign "Za ... ets".
    But seriously, since the beginning of military activity in November 1942, there has been one victory in three months. (!) And from the Battle of Kursk rushed to "write the province". In total, judging by the numbers of combat missions, battles fought, victories won (?), "Blond Knight" is equal to the Soviet air division !!!!
    1. YOUR
      YOUR 12 January 2020 07: 30
      +22
      You read memoirs, their assaults on our tank units, in one launch of 32 tanks. It’s not funny for yourself?
      Or an aerial battle on Taman. The Germans "shot down" almost twice as many planes as we had. Sami lost 3 to 3.5 times less.
      But this is the case, for our pilots and anti-aircraft gunners, everyone paid for the destroyed enemy equipment, to prove that they had shot down confirmation from at least 2 independent sources, or removed with a machine gun.
      The Germans are all different, gentlemen believe in the word. Or 10 of their planes fired on a plane, it smoked and went somewhere down, that means they shot down all 10, they all counted on the downed plane.
      1. LeonidL
        LeonidL 12 January 2020 08: 01
        +7
        Yes, confirmation was required, preferably from the airborne landing gear or infantry, a snapshot of a downed aircraft, etc.
      2. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 08: 12
        -23
        Quote: YOUR
        confirmation of at least 2 independent sources

        Who is this, for example?
        Quote: YOUR
        or take off on a machine gun.

        What Soviet photo machine guns of those years do you know?
        Quote: YOUR
        then they shot down all 10, everyone counted on the downed plane.

        Here it is as lucky with the commander. 52nd with the same commander was "lucky" in this respect.
        1. svp67
          svp67 12 January 2020 09: 02
          +12
          Quote: Octopus
          What Soviet photo machine guns of those years do you know?

          The PAH-22 photo-machine gun began to be installed before the war
          Here is a photo of Boris Safonov near his I-16 on whose gargot
          mounted machine gun
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 12 January 2020 16: 30
            -6
            )))
            Do not prompt.
            Quote: svp67
            Here is a photo of Boris Safonov near his I-16

            not his
            Fighter pilot Boris Safonov and photojournalist Yevgeny Khaldey at the Vaenga airfield. A shot against the background of the plane of Senior Lieutenant Alexander Kovalenko - I-16 type 24, tail number 11 “For Stalin!”, Serial number 24P21891. The military unit is the 72nd SAP (Mixed Aviation Regiment) of the Northern Fleet Air Force. On top of the fuselage behind the cockpit, a PAU-22 photo machine gun was installed, which at that time was not common. This shot is also interesting because in a couple of minutes there will be a German aircraft raid on the airfield, and the machine gun burst will lie literally a few steps from the photographer.
          2. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 16: 31
            +5
            Quote: svp67
            near his I-16 on whose gargota

            All the same, gargrot, I'm sorry.
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 12 January 2020 09: 47
          +4
          I don’t know how the pilots did, but the wrecked tanks also required two sources in order to be counted. as a variant of the report of the attached infantry and the report of the party leadership of the unit. Komsomol there for example or political instructor.
      3. Andrey NM
        Andrey NM 12 January 2020 09: 58
        +10
        My grandfather told me that with the confirmation of those shot down in their regiment it was very difficult. If the plane crashed in the enemy’s territory, then you can forget about it, if in our territory a commission was collected to the crash site, some numbered part or plate was actually torn from the plane, otherwise no nachfin will sign the paperwork to pay for the shot down.
      4. victor50
        victor50 12 January 2020 19: 24
        +2
        Quote: YOUR
        The Germans are all different, gentlemen believe in the word. Or 10 of their planes fired on a plane, it smoked and went somewhere down, that means they shot down all 10, they all counted on the downed plane.

        Not certainly in that way. This is one of the "fashionable" explanations for the large accounts of the victories of the German pilots - nothing more. The article contains much more balanced explanations.
    2. svp67
      svp67 12 January 2020 08: 56
      +9
      Quote: andrewkor
      "Blond Knight" is equal to the Soviet air division !!!!

      For the sake of interest, if not familiar, then read, here is a very interesting analysis of the combat "victories" of Hartman in the air battle over Yassy
      https://warspot.ru/3125-hartman-nad-yassami-fantazii-v-pogone-za-mechami
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 16: 40
        -6
        Quote: svp67
        "victories" of Hartmann in the air battle over Iasi
        https://warspot.ru/3125-hartman-nad-yassami-fantazii-v-pogone-za-mechami

        Yes, a very characteristic article and discussion. At first, 200 posts were buried in Hartmann, two button accordions were torn. And then another calico came. The words Well, specifically according to the article, then take the calculator in your hands:
    3. Captain45
      Captain45 12 January 2020 13: 27
      +10
      Quote: andrewkor
      But seriously, since the beginning of military activity in November 1942, there has been one victory in three months. (!) And from the Battle of Kursk rushed to "write the province". In total, judging by the numbers of combat missions, battles fought, victories won (?), "Blond Knight" is equal to the Soviet air division !!!!

      Once I came across the book "Cavaliers of the Iron Cross", there are all awarded the Iron Cross since the inception of the award. The bottom line is: a friend began to assert that, they say, the aces of the Luftwaffe, the book listed all the awardees, there was some chief lieutenant, now I do not remember the name, and especially did not remember, awarded with oak leaves with swords and there was a description of the feat: in one day at the Kursk Bulge made 27 sorties and destroyed 40 tanks. In response, let's just count: 24 hours in a day, the approximate time to take off, search for a target, defeat, return well, let it be 30 minutes. Then refueling the plane, loading weapons, hanging bombs for another 30 or even 40 minutes. Drink coffee , to piss the pilot between flights for another 15-20 minutes, in total, one flight with a break requires at least 1 hour 20 minutes, and there are 27 of them, and in a day there are 24 hours, and the enemy does not sit for 24 hours on the battlefield waiting for an attack and what happens ... ... Thought my friend, thought and was blown away.
  4. pro100y.belarus
    pro100y.belarus 12 January 2020 06: 53
    +9
    I fully agree with the author of the article. Thanks to such people, the TRUTH is passed on to the next generation.
    I really hope that Ukraine will "recover" from its Bandera-Galicia period and the author will see her "recovery".
    Health and good luck.
    1. unknown
      unknown 12 January 2020 07: 26
      -3
      Such a forecast can only be astrological.
      According to himself, to date, the reputable astrologer Grigory Kvasha, will get sick, but not soon. After 2029, the Southwestern outskirts of the Russian state will return to its composition.
      1. LeonidL
        LeonidL 12 January 2020 07: 59
        +1
        Not in a hurry, you can wait!
    2. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 15: 26
      +7
      Thank you sincerely pro100.belarus! And then after all, some argue that in / in Ukraine there are no people left at all, ALL if not Bandera, then greedy fools. And that’s all for Europe and Russophobes. And this is NOT so! Some Syabrs understand ...
  5. Mcar
    Mcar 12 January 2020 07: 05
    +12
    Many thanks to the author!

    To accommodate such an extensive, exhaustive and objective analysis of such a controversial topic in such a small volume of text - it is necessary to really own the material.
  6. AlexVas44
    AlexVas44 12 January 2020 07: 24
    +3
    The author V. Mashkov did not mention yet another way of accounting for downed planes; apparently, he does not consider it to be true. Often met in the press that the Germans had a system of points for the number of engines on the plane, and the fact of the downed enemy plane was confirmed only by photographs of the fact that there was shooting at the plane.
    There has always been a question - is that so?
    1. LeonidL
      LeonidL 12 January 2020 07: 58
      +1
      So - also read.
    2. Octopus
      Octopus 12 January 2020 08: 09
      0
      Quote: AlexVas44
      Often met in the press that the Germans had a point system for the number of engines on the plane

      Points are points, and a downed one is a downed one. For four-engine they could write a bonus, but statistics on the shot down were kept in pieces.
      Quote: AlexVas44
      the fact of the downed enemy aircraft was confirmed only by photographs of the fact that there was shooting at the aircraft.

      Yes, German aircraft were mainly equipped with a machine gun and their data was usually attached to the questionnaire. Another conversation is that Soviet aircraft are usually a machine gun not equippedso that confirmation of firing on an airplane is usually did not have.
    3. Captain45
      Captain45 12 January 2020 13: 32
      +2
      Quote: AlexVas44
      Often met in the press that the Germans had a system of points for the number of engines on the plane, and the fact of the downed enemy plane was confirmed only by photographs of the fact that there was shooting at the plane.
      There has always been a question - is that so?

      There was an article on this topic at VO about two years ago, there this engine system was also examined in detail, a 4-engine British bomber went for 4 downed planes.
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 14 January 2020 01: 12
        0
        Here in the comments it seems like a link to the site "VO". So what are the cons? For a link to the site? Original ... it's easier oh ... to go crazy. You can see the truth about all sorts of community groups minus. Four-legged artiodactyl small-horned domestic animals, for the name of 5 letters tolerance does not miss.
    4. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 15: 37
      +3
      Alexander AlexVas44, this is a myth that arose initially from deafening "bills". And even those who knocked down the "fortress" were counted by the piece. But about the photo-gun - it's true.
      1. AlexVas44
        AlexVas44 12 January 2020 16: 39
        +1
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        a myth that arose initially from deafening "bills".

        Thanks, I understand. This deafening "account" was embarrassing, I wanted to believe in a myth.
        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          12 January 2020 17: 26
          +6
          Alexander, our people then strongly believed in the "civilized" European "democrats" and the SAM was looking for the reasons for the frantic over-accounts. And the reason for the postscripts was banal not in the "motors", but in the boundless arrogance of the German "superas". Like those who shot a group of ammunition in the sand of the Sahara and reported on dozens of destroyed British aircraft. The Eastern Front had its own "maneches". Supers are such super experts! laughing
    5. victor50
      victor50 12 January 2020 19: 28
      +1
      Quote: AlexVas44
      Asto met in the press that the Germans had a system of points for the number of engines on the plane, and the fact of the downed enemy plane was confirmed only by photographs of the fact that there was shooting at the plane.
      There has always been a question - is that so?

      On the Western Front. In the East - no.
  7. Strashila
    Strashila 12 January 2020 07: 51
    +7
    "9. More intensive activity of German fighter pilots than most Soviet pilots (up to 6 sorties a day for almost the entire war)." This is an old bike, elementary arithmetic showed that a German pilot could not actually fly more than 3 sorties a day , strict regulations on pre-flight preparation of equipment and receipt of pre-flight information by pilots.
    As far as I remember back in December 1941 after the defeat near Moscow, Hitler asked a question to his military, and with whom are we fighting, if according to your reports the Red Army has already been destroyed several times.
    In this question there is an answer to the German victories.
    1. Alf
      Alf 12 January 2020 21: 07
      +3
      Quote: Strashila
      Hitler asked a question to his military, and with whom are we fighting,

      "With the hordes of Mongols who were hired by the Jews with the money of Western plutocrats." laughing
    2. Vladimir Mashkov
      15 January 2020 15: 11
      +1
      Scarecrow
      You are partially correct. But "up to 6 flights a day" DOES NOT MEAN "6 flights a day" necessarily.
  8. Amateur
    Amateur 12 January 2020 07: 52
    +8
    It is not the actions of an individual "Hartmann" that should be evaluated, even if he (conditionally admitted) shot down at least 1000 enemy aircraft. It is necessary to evaluate the result of the actions of both the Air Force and all the armed forces of the opposing countries. By May 9, 1945, the Air Force of the Third Reich was completely defeated, and Hartmann himself spent 10 years in the Soviet high-security camp for his "victories". So let him write and count everything that comes into his head.
    Our cause is right and victory will be ours
    1. mr.ZinGer
      mr.ZinGer 12 January 2020 10: 02
      +2
      The old rule "Order beats Class" in action.
  9. Santa Fe
    Santa Fe 12 January 2020 07: 56
    -27
    "Assy" of the Third Reich. The phenomenon of huge personal accounts

    No phenomenon

    In the process of industrialization, the Soviet leadership managed to adopt almost everything from Western countries. To purchase machines, build enterprises in the aviation industry, master the technology of manufacturing aircraft and weapons, establish large-scale production, train tens of thousands of pilots

    But to copy the organization, motivation and self-awareness of the inhabitants of the Zap. Europe was not
    1. frei67
      frei67 12 January 2020 08: 25
      +13
      -motivation and self-awareness of residents of the Zap. Europe was impossible - do not tell me how the motivation of Westerners helped bring down our pilots?
    2. qQQQ
      qQQQ 12 January 2020 10: 04
      +11
      Quote: Santa Fe
      But to copy the organization, motivation and self-awareness of the inhabitants of the Zap. Europe was not

      At the expense of motivation and self-awareness, I laughed, although probably laughing through tears, the inhabitants of Zap are very motivated and selflessly. Europe destroyed our civilians.
    3. Andrey NM
      Andrey NM 12 January 2020 10: 39
      +9
      Quote: Santa Fe
      But to copy the organization, motivation and self-awareness of the inhabitants of the Zap. Europe was not


      And what about the motivation of the French, Czechs, Poles, British and other Europeans of the "highest grade"? How long did they lie under the Aryans? Was their motivation enough for a month and a half? The British were saved only by the strait.
      1. Santa Fe
        Santa Fe 12 January 2020 10: 47
        -10
        Quote: Andrey NM
        The English saved only the strait.

        In this case, only the size of the country saved us

        300 km from Paris to the Belgian border; Germans covered them in a month
        300 km from Minsk to the western borders of the USSR; Germans overcame them in 3 DAYS
        1. Andrey NM
          Andrey NM 12 January 2020 12: 18
          +7
          Quote: Santa Fe
          In this case, only the size of the country saved us

          300 km from Paris to the Belgian border; Germans covered them in a month
          300 km from Minsk to the western borders of the USSR; Germans overcame them in 3 DAYS

          Quote: Santa Fe
          In the process of industrialization, the Soviet leadership managed to adopt almost everything from Western countries. To purchase machines, build enterprises in the aviation industry, master the technology of manufacturing aircraft and weapons, establish large-scale production, train tens of thousands of pilots

          Well, they are all superhuman there. Moreover, they have technology, education, level of development ... And so, we just broke away from the plow. In addition, they had contractual arrangements for mutual assistance. Did they help Czechoslovakia a lot? Did the British help the French a lot? But what a hero film about Dunkirk was shot.
          These guys knew what sizes they were entering. And now it doesn’t matter how many days they went through individual pieces. It is important where they were then driven. And if we were able to do this, then the British actually remained to sit on their shore.
          1. Santa Fe
            Santa Fe 12 January 2020 12: 32
            -7
            Stop citing Czechoslovakia as an example. These are German wolves in Slavic skin. Slovaks generally lived under the Germans for 900 years, completely dissolved in their culture. Schwarzenegger's hometown - Austrian Graz former Gradovec.

            Did they have at least one reason to fight the Germans?
            Czechoslovakia - Wehrmacht weapons forge, suppliers of first-class military equipment
            1. Andrey NM
              Andrey NM 12 January 2020 13: 03
              +7
              Quote: Santa Fe
              Czechoslovakia - Wehrmacht weapons forge, suppliers of first-class military equipment

              And whom to cite as an example?
              And France - suppliers, and Sweden - suppliers, and Holland, and much more ...
              And together with Germany, the USSR was attacked:
              Romania - about 200 thousand soldiers, Slovakia - 90 thousand soldiers, Finland - about 450 thousand soldiers and officers, Hungary - about 500 thousand people, Italy - 200 thousand people, Croatia as part of the security division ...
              And the Waffen SS also served: the Dutch - 50 thousand people, the Belgians - 20 thousand people, the French - 20 thousand people, the Danes and Norwegians - 6 thousand people, 1200 people from Sweden, Luxembourg, Switzerland ...

              So what kind of motivation were you talking about?
              1. andr6
                andr6 12 January 2020 18: 48
                -10
                Quote: Andrey NM
                And whom to cite as an example?
                And France - suppliers, and Sweden - suppliers, and Holland, and much more ...

                You can still recall other suppliers.
                USA, for example.
                Britannia.
                Canada.
                They supplied a lot of all kinds of USSR. Which, in general, "in the coalition" mainly supplied soldiers.
              2. andr6
                andr6 12 January 2020 18: 51
                -10
                Quote: Andrey NM
                Romania - about 200 thousand soldiers, Slovakia - 90 thousand soldiers, Finland - about 450 thousand soldiers and officers, Hungary - about 500 thousand people, Italy - 200 thousand people, Croatia as part of the security division ...

                The "blue division" was also forgotten. Spanish "Komsomol volunteers". Alaverdi for Soviet tramps in the 30s in Spain.
                By the way, the Romanians lost a lot of soldiers after joining the Anti-Hitler Coalition. And the Bulgarians too.
                There were 3 Poles in the army. And the sea fell upon them during the capture of Berlin.
                1. Andrey NM
                  Andrey NM 12 January 2020 20: 16
                  +5
                  Quote: andr6
                  You can still recall other suppliers.
                  USA, for example.
                  Britannia.
                  Canada.
                  They supplied a lot of all kinds of USSR. Which, in general, "in the coalition" mainly supplied soldiers.

                  You can remember this too. And the USSR supplied in response. Would it be better if the United States, Britain and Canada were the supplier of Hitler's Germany? Although Senator and future President Harry Truman on June 24, 1941, in the New York Times said: "If we see that Germany is winning, then we should help Russia, and if Russia is winning, then we should help Germany, and thus let them kill as much as possible ... ". In addition, thanks to these supplies, the United States got out of the Great Depression, which at the end of the 30s had not yet released the country. These supplies were not free. And the soldiers are the most valuable thing in all these, as you say, "supplies".
                  Quote: andr6
                  By the way, the Romanians lost a lot of soldiers after joining the Anti-Hitler coalition. And the Bulgarians too.
                  There were 3 Poles in the army. And the sea fell upon them during the capture of Berlin.

                  These throwings from one to another remind me of girls with low social responsibility. The same Czechoslovakia, which they asked not to give as an example, in 1939 surrendered without a single squeak, for so many years it regularly supplied arms to the Reich, no sabotage and guerrilla warfare ... They also issued rational proposals for improving products and increasing production rates. But when the fried rooster began to peck in one place, they quickly orientated themselves, organized a kind of uprising, let’s save us. But at the same time, the last products for the Wehrmacht were handed over on May 9, 1945.
                  1. fghy
                    fghy 13 January 2020 12: 55
                    -8
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    But what would be better if the United States, Britain and Canada were suppliers of Nazi Germany?

                    What did they plan? They actually fought with the Reich. The British since September 1939, the Americans since March 1941
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    Although Senator and future President Harry Truman on June 24, 1941, in the New York Times said: "If we see that Germany is winning, then we should help Russia, and if Russia is winning, then we should help Germany, and thus let them kill as much as possible ... "

                    The thought is actually sound and correct.
                    What bothers you about it?
                    Allies of the USSR and the USA only became September 24.09.1941, XNUMX. Before that, the Soviet-German war (in the USSR it was called the Second World War), if anyone was interested, it was only from the point of view that it would be shed as long as possible.
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    In addition, thanks to these supplies, the United States emerged from the Great Depression.

                    Rave. The United States emerged from depression in the 30s.
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    These deliveries were not free.

                    For money, the USSR is free.
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    The same Czechoslovakia, which was asked here not to be given as an example, in 1939 surrendered without a single squeak

                    Czechs are smart luy. Like the French.
                    It was not their war, and they evaded participation in it. What the USSR did not do, although he needed it most of all. But the Bolsheviks did not need this. Therefore, the USSR did not evade.
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    no sabotage and guerrilla warfare ...

                    Heydrich not killed in Prague?
                    Quote: Andrey NM
                    But at the same time, the last products for the Wehrmacht were handed over on May 9, 1945.

                    An invoice in your hands? Or eat fables runet?
                    1. Andrey NM
                      Andrey NM 13 January 2020 19: 30
                      +1
                      Quote: fghy
                      What did they plan? They actually fought with the Reich. The British since September 1939, the Americans since March 1941

                      It is not known how everything would turn out if Edward remained on the throne.
                      Quote: fghy
                      The thought is actually sound and correct.
                      What bothers you about it?

                      Well, if you thought about the killings you think is right, then what else can you talk about?
                      Quote: fghy
                      Rave. The United States emerged from depression in the 30s.

                      In 1939, the United States did not even reach the level of the early 30s. The booming economy is associated with increasing military orders in 1939-41.
                      Quote: fghy
                      For money, the USSR is free.

                      The "free" lend-lease debt was closed in August 2006. The US originally billed nearly $ 3 billion. After lengthy negotiations, they paid 772 million. Real pennies.
                      Quote: fghy
                      Czechs are smart people. Like the French.
                      It was not their war, and they evaded participation in it.

                      Those. mind allowed to collaborate with the Nazis, and when it suddenly smelled fried, the mind allowed to immediately pose as martyrs. Fine ... And the assassination of Heydrich is the plan of the British intelligence services. The goals of this murder did not reach. These fellow countrymen also surrendered their own. Moreover, the fathers of their sons surrendered!
        2. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 17: 20
          +5
          Quote: Santa Fe
          300 km from Paris to the Belgian border; Germans covered them in a month
          300 km from Minsk to the western borders of the USSR; Germans overcame them in 3 DAYS

          And why does the countdown go from the Belgian border to Paris, which by the way was announced open on May 10? After all, the Germans began a real war on May 10 by June 22 forced to surrender to THREE countries, Holland, Belgium and France, in less than a month and a half, and defeated in fact FOUR armies! What number capitulated the USSR?
          Not three but seven days, on June 28 the Germans broke into Minsk.
          1. andr6
            andr6 12 January 2020 18: 16
            -18
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            What number capitulated the USSR?

            24.09.1941 the USSR completed the INDEPENDENT Soviet-German war (in the USSR it was called the Second World War) and immediately, without a break, entered 2MB on the side of the Anti-Hitler coalition.
            It was not surrender, of course. But nevertheless, thereby the USSR made it clear to everyone that he himself could not fight in Europe against the Axis countries.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 26
              +3
              Comment in more detail on this Russophobic nonsense.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Octopus
                Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 46
                -5
                Russophobe had in mind the (first) Moscow Allied Conference, September-October 41st. Russophobe is not quite right, in July Hopkins arrives in Moscow and on July 30 he meets with Stalin. Hopkins director of the Land Lisa program at that time. Already on July 10, Chrisp, the head of the English mission, met with Stalin, on July 12 the first Anglo-Soviet agreement was signed. So there was absolutely no one in the frost of the USSR even in the summer of the 41st.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 53
                  +3
                  Lend-Lease as the savior of the USSR is Russophobian nonsense.
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 56
                    -8
                    In this regard, let me first of all express my full agreement with your assessment of the work of the Three Powers Conference in Moscow, which should be attributed to the greatest extent to the merits of Mr. Harriman, as well as Mr. Beaverbrook, who did everything possible to successfully complete the work of the Conference in the shortest time. The Soviet Government expresses its deep appreciation for your statement that the decisions of the Conference will be carried out as much as possible.
                    Your decision, Mr. President, to provide the Soviet Union with an interest-free loan worth $ 1 billion to pay for the supply of arms and raw materials to the Soviet Union, the Soviet Government accepts with sincere gratitude as the extremely serious support of the Soviet Union in its enormous and difficult struggle with our common enemy, with bloody Hitlerism.
                    On behalf of the Government of the USSR, I fully agree with the terms and conditions set forth by you for providing this loan to the Soviet Union, the payments on which should begin 5 years after the end of the war and will be made within 10 years after the expiration of this five-year period.
                    The Government of the USSR is ready to do everything necessary to supply the United States with the goods and raw materials that it has at its disposal and which the United States may need.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 59
                      +3
                      It was necessary for Stalin to write something like: "Not really that and should have been, but since they gave me thanks," so what?
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 12 January 2020 19: 07
                        -8
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        "Not really that and it was necessary, but since they gave it thanks," so what?

                        But didn't he say that after the war?
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 19: 11
                        +3
                        Quote: Octopus
                        But didn't he say that after the war?

                        This is news, as they say: "Proofs in the studio"!
                      3. Octopus
                        Octopus 12 January 2020 19: 30
                        -10
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        This is news, as they say: "Proofs in the studio"!

                        Have liberals come up with about paying for blood with LL?
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 03: 30
                        +2
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Not really that and it was necessary, but since they gave it thanks, "so what?

                        But didn't he say that after the war?
                        Wow, exactly the same! Payment in blood and "Not really that and should have ..."
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Have liberals come up with about paying for blood with LL?
                      5. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 06: 24
                        -7
                        I fully agree with the terms and conditions set forth by you for providing this loan to the Soviet Union, the payments on which should begin 5 years after the end of the war and will be made within 10 years after the expiration of this five-year period.


                        It seems that the Soviet people underpaid with blood, no?

                        And about not much and it was necessary - these are the famous 4% of the enemy of the Ascension people.
                  2. andr6
                    andr6 12 January 2020 19: 36
                    -9
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Lend-Lease as the savior of the USSR is Russophobian nonsense.

                    You are a strikingly ignorant person. You do not even bother to ask yourself, but what did the USSR and the Red Army eat during the war?
                    The 1941 harvest was not lost all, but mostly.
                    The harvest of 1942 was almost completely consumed.
                    Etc.
                    What did the USSR and the Red Army eat? Holy spirit? And this despite the fact that even in peacetime, when the fields were sown, and men engaged in productive labor, the USSR balanced between malnutrition and hunger.
                    And in 1946, after Lend-Lease ceased at the end of 1945, the next famine began in the USSR.
                    And stop littering with words. In relation to the USSR and the Soviet, the term "Russophobia" is inapplicable. Since the USSR itself was Russophobic.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 03: 38
                      +3
                      Quote: andr6
                      In relation to the USSR and the Soviet, the term "Russophobia" is inapplicable. Since the USSR itself was Russophobic

                      About Stalin’s words about the role of the Russian people in the war, you are completely unaware. And for some reason I am a strikingly ignorant person.
                      Quote: andr6
                      What did the USSR and the Red Army eat? Holy spirit? And this despite the fact that even in peacetime, when the fields were sown, and men engaged in productive labor, the USSR balanced between malnutrition and hunger.
                      And in 1946, after Lend-Lease ceased at the end of 1945, the next famine began in the USSR.
                      Thanks, of course, to the allies for the help paid, however, but in November 1941, near Moscow, the Lend-Lease did not show itself, but the Germans were stopped and driven back. But since you are not in the know, then your awareness is simply unique. And the famine of 1947 is a consequence of human losses in agricultural, a consequence of losses in agricultural machinery, temporary losses of sown areas and dry weather, in the end. It is a pity that your exceptional politeness and education did not bring this to you.
                      1. fghy
                        fghy 13 January 2020 11: 41
                        -13
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        About the words of Stalin

                        Jugashvili’s chatter is not interesting to me.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And for some reason I am a strikingly ignorant person.

                        Because you do not know basic things.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Thanks, of course, to the Allies for their help,

                        And here you do not know who helped whom during the 2MB.
                        Not the Anglo-Saxons helped the USSR. Starting from September 24.09.1941, XNUMX, this USSR helped the Anglo-Sakas. And he was on their premises. For a small fraction.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        paid for

                        Lend-Lease, and in his program of the USSR was included 01.10.1941, was free. And deliveries from 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX to this date were carried out on credit (on credit).
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but in November 1941, near Moscow, the Lend-Lease did not show itself,

                        You somehow didn’t notice British tanks near Moscow.
                        It is understandable, they didn’t want to see, so they didn’t notice it.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        however, the Germans were stopped and driven back.

                        Don't be creative. So they "drove back" that they reached Stalingrad and the Volga.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And the famine of 1947 is a consequence of human losses in agricultural, a consequence of losses in agricultural machinery, temporary losses of sown areas and dry weather, in the end.

                        Yeah. And also a consequence of the intrigues of "enemies of the people" and "wreckers".
                        We know these Soviet songs. Years go by, and the songs are all old.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It is a pity that your exceptional politeness and education did not bring this to you.

                        Soviet zombie installations brought to me not a single decade. But I was smart enough to treat them critically. And in the information age, look for the truth.
                        It's easy to find her. You just need to want to. And in order to want, you need to have a head on your shoulders, and not a blank for a hat.
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 14: 35
                        +4
                        Quote: fghy
                        Jugashvili’s chatter is not interesting to me.
                        Of course, to you, as a stubborn Russophobe, the words of Hitler and Goebbels are closer and dearer.
                        Quote: fghy
                        Not the Anglo-Saxons helped the USSR. Starting from September 24.09.1941, XNUMX, this USSR helped the Anglo-Sakas. And he was on their premises. For a small fraction.
                        What kind of idiocy?
                        Quote: fghy
                        Lend-Lease, and in his program of the USSR was included 01.10.1941, was free. And deliveries from 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX to this date were carried out on credit (on credit).
                        Wow, your rental is a free thing, your awareness directly scales, below the bottom!

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but in November 1941, near Moscow, the Lend-Lease did not show itself, but the Germans were stopped and driven back

                        Quote: fghy
                        You somehow didn’t notice British tanks near Moscow.
                        It is understandable, they didn’t want to see, so they didn’t notice it.
                        And how many English tanks were near Moscow in November?
                        Quote: fghy
                        Don't be creative. So they "drove back" that they reached Stalingrad and the Volga.
                        How, you, the most educated of the educated and not aware that
                        On December 5, 1941, the Red Army launched a counterattack on the entire front near Moscow, having carried out a number of successful front-line offensive operations and drove the enemy 150-300 kilometers from the capital.

                        Quote: fghy
                        And the famine of 1947 is a consequence of human losses in agricultural, a consequence of losses in agricultural machinery, temporary losses of sown areas and dry weather, in the end.

                        Yeah. And also a consequence of the intrigues of "enemies of the people" and "wreckers".
                        We know these Soviet songs. Years go by and the songs are all old
                        Seriously? Do you think the 1947 famine was a consequence of the cessation of Lend-Lease? Those. Neither human losses, nor losses in technology, nor the explosive field covered with any rubbish and drought could cause crop failure? Sorry, but this is a diagnosis.
                      3. begemot20091
                        begemot20091 13 January 2020 15: 19
                        0

                        USE gives its results
                2. andr6
                  andr6 12 January 2020 19: 41
                  -8
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Already on July 10, Chrisp, the head of the English mission, met with Stalin, on July 12 the first Anglo-Soviet agreement was signed.

                  Until 01.10.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, all deliveries to the USSR were carried out not under the Lend-Lease program, but as part of foreign trade (on credit).
                  This loan then for a long time and needed to give first the USSR, and then the Russian Federation.
                3. Captain45
                  Captain45 12 January 2020 22: 15
                  +5
                  Quote: Octopus
                  On July 12, the first Anglo-Soviet agreement was signed. So there was absolutely no one in the frost of the USSR even in the summer of the 41st.

                  And that on July 13, British soldiers fought in Smolensk? Just don’t retell Weller’s tale about Moshe Dayan.
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 12 January 2020 22: 32
                    -12
                    Quote: Captain45
                    And that on July 13, British soldiers fought in Smolensk?

                    And why should they fight in Smolensk? They have their own war, in which the USSR unexpectedly for itself became their ally.
                    1. wchin
                      wchin 13 January 2020 23: 54
                      -1
                      Quote: Octopus
                      They have their own war, in which the USSR unexpectedly for itself became their ally.

                      Why unexpectedly?
                      Negotiations of the USSR on its acceptance under the roof of the Anglo-Saxons lasted from the end of June to 24.09.1941. almost 3 months. It doesn’t feel like “unexpectedly”.
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 14 January 2020 02: 11
                        -3
                        Suddenly, he was on June 22 at exactly 4 o’clock. And about the interest of the Soviet government in the Atlantic males, it was already in the 30s and more or less remained without interruptions, even to the Finnish one. Richness of vectorization is not the invention of Yanukovych.
                    2. Captain45
                      Captain45 14 January 2020 01: 22
                      +1
                      Quote: Octopus
                      And why should they fight in Smolensk?

                      So you yourself said
                      Quote: Octopus
                      On July 12, the first Anglo-Soviet agreement was signed. So there was absolutely no one in the frost of the USSR even in the summer of the 41st.

                      Therefore, the question is, where were the British soldiers, if already in the summer of 1941 the USSR was not alone in the cold? Did the trenches on the Mozhaisk line really dig?
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 14 January 2020 02: 06
                        -3
                        Quote: Captain45
                        Are the trenches dug on the Mozhaisk line?

                        Again. Britain has been at war with Germany since September 3, 1939. Not even two years had passed since the USSR turned out to be on the side of Britain in this war (and not on the side on which it was the first two years). Do you think the British should have rushed to dig trenches near Mozhaisk? You didn’t confuse anything?
                      2. Captain45
                        Captain45 14 January 2020 02: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Britain has been at war with Germany since September 3, 1939.

                        Well, let him fight. I’m personally on the drum, I’m not going to enter into a discussion with you because of its futility. I am happy to remain in my belief that GB has won all. Greetings to Prince Charlie and Meghan Markle.
                      3. Octopus
                        Octopus 14 January 2020 02: 22
                        -3
                        Prince Harry.

                        Did I write somewhere that Britain defeated everyone?
              3. Alf
                Alf 12 January 2020 21: 16
                +7
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Comment in more detail on this Russophobic nonsense.

                This is not Russophobian nonsense, this carbine ran off the fool again.
                By the way, a question for admins. If carbine is banned (just the other day they drove UU6, how did andr6 appear)? then how does he manage to climb here every time? Maybe it's time to ban on IP?
          2. Santa Fe
            Santa Fe 13 January 2020 22: 42
            -3
            About Holland and Belgium, their size and significance is a rhetorical question.

            What number capitulated the USSR

            If the Union were the same size as France, then at the actual pace of advance / retreat, simple mathematics gives the answer - in a few days. For which the Germans traveled through Soviet territory, the distance identical to the distance to Paris

            I never liked the ridicule of the quick surrender of France, in the context of 1941.
        3. victor50
          victor50 12 January 2020 19: 38
          +4
          Quote: Santa Fe
          300 km from Paris to the Belgian border; Germans covered them in a month
          300 km from Minsk to the western borders of the USSR; Germans overcame them in 3 DAYS

          So what?! Ours, as in the West, stopped fighting? And how did this "sprint" end? Our troops, crossing the border, also showed good speed qualities.
          1. Santa Fe
            Santa Fe 13 January 2020 23: 12
            -1
            Ours, as in the West, stopped fighting?

            We lay the bulk of the country east of Minsk

            About 1944 - no one argues there, the army gained experience. The dispute arose about the summer of 1941. The rate of advance of the Germans in the summer of 41 was several times higher than in France
            1. Operator
              Operator 14 January 2020 00: 50
              +3
              From May 16 to 19, 1940, the Wehrmacht traveled 100 km from the Ardennes to the Atlantic coast at a speed of 33 km per day


              South of the formed front was 90% of the territory of France, including the capital Paris. On May 24, Hitler ordered the Wehrmacht to be stopped until the evacuation of the British and French from Dunkirk.

              Nevertheless, France surrendered a month later.
            2. victor50
              victor50 14 January 2020 08: 13
              +1
              Quote: Santa Fe
              The rate of advance of the Germans in the summer of 41 was several times higher than in France

              Are we looking for record speeds? Or understand the causes of victories and defeats? Napoleon generally took Moscow and reached it faster than Hitler. Just what happened then ?! But about the heroism of the defenders of France in 40 I did not come across anything even from Western authors. Although, of course, there were also separate heroic episodes. But overall - a shame! And not that the Germans found themselves in Paris so quickly, but that spirit of resistance (or rather, in its absence) of the majority of the country's population. In my opinion, the French, those who continued to fight later, also applied to this, and the West as a whole, if and only when it forgets political interests.
      2. Alf
        Alf 12 January 2020 21: 12
        +6
        Quote: Andrey NM
        How long did they lie under the Aryans? Was there a month and a half of their motivation? The English saved only the strait.

        Especially if you know the history of the Guernsey Islands, where from the 40s to the 45s, the British administration got along well with the German.
    4. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 12 January 2020 18: 45
      +4
      Quote: Santa Fe
      But to copy the organization, motivation and self-awareness of the inhabitants of the Zap. Europe was not

      What kind of motivation? Lie under the Germans, and wait until someone there will fight with them?
    5. Alf
      Alf 12 January 2020 21: 10
      +4
      Quote: Santa Fe
      motivation and self-awareness of residents of the Zap. Of Europe

      This phrase was especially nailed. The army is a part of society, look how the peoples of conquered Europe behaved in relation to Germany. They lived and did not blow a mustache.
    6. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny 13 January 2020 13: 59
      +2
      But copy organization, motivation and self-awareness[i] [/ i] residents of Western countries Europe was not

      Oleg, for "being organized" I agree - I read somewhere that about 1/3 of supplies to the Wehrmacht were made by "organized" residents of Western Europe. For Motivation and Self-Consciousness - which country offered the most fierce resistance to Hitler? I mean guerrilla warfare? USSR, Yugoslavia and .... Poland. The rest were "motivated and self-conscious" at military factories that manufacture products for the needs of the Reich.
  10. LeonidL
    LeonidL 12 January 2020 07: 58
    +6
    The statistics of the Third Reich are cunning in everything, the "victories" of the Assam (not the Aesam) Doenitz were also counted, especially since 1943, when the "fat" years ended, the transports stopped going without convoys, a real PLO began. So it turned out that the number of declared victories for very many does not coincide with the number of sunk or damaged ships and ships of the Allies. Many victories are simply exaggerated. the same with tanks - losses were divided into categories, and a tank was considered lost, turned into complete scrap metal. If there was even a small hint of restoration, the tank was considered repairable and was sent to Germany. That is why, in August 1943, after the Battle of Kursk, hundreds of tank scrap metal with crosses were seized both at the tank repair factories in Kharkov and Belgorod, and on the platforms of trains ready to drag it all to Germany ... there was already a final culling and about half immediately was sent to the furnace for melting. Yes, in 1941 victories were given to the Germans easier both in the air and at sea - experience + excellent equipment. But gradually all this sank into oblivion - and the places of experienced submarine crews and pilots were occupied by early graduates, and the Allied equipment was superior to that of Germany. Everything fell into place and ended with the Great Victory.
    1. mr.ZinGer
      mr.ZinGer 12 January 2020 10: 12
      +5
      The first two weeks of fighting in June 1941 were among the highest level of losses for the Luftwaffe.
    2. bubalik
      bubalik 12 January 2020 12: 18
      +4
      "victories" of Assam (not Asam) Denits were counted, especially
      ,,, a transport ship, or even a warship, is not a serial tank or plane. There were no puffed victories on sunken ships.
      1. LeonidL
        LeonidL 13 January 2020 03: 14
        +1
        You, dear, are simply ill-informed. At the beginning of the war, the aces fought in hothouse conditions, in 1942, after the United States entered the war, at first, too, single ships or weakly guarded convoys were torpedoed, usually from the surface with zero resistance ... hence the 100 tons for the knights of the cross. Since the beginning of 000 things have gone oh so bad - they fired from long distances, because they could not break through the PLO ... but sometimes they were counted as phony to 1943 "sunk" by the boat. Read, for example, the work of G. Drozhzhin. "Aces and Propaganda" everything is documented there. Incidentally, inconsistencies happened with Soviet submariners - torpedo attacks on rocks, ships and ships sunk in the grit, early triggering of induction fuses. Another thing is that there were many fewer such incidents than Nemchura.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 14 January 2020 08: 59
          +2
          Leonid, unfortunately, I do not know any historian by the name of Drozhzhin, although he himself worked for more than ten years at the State Historical Museum. Perhaps you can share with us what other historical works this author is known for. Along the way, I want to note that after the war the figures for the tonnage losses of the allies and the victories of the Germans were verified, the differences there were minimal. As his colleague bubalik (Sergey) rightly noted, a ship is not an airplane, you cannot hide it in a "swamp". hi
          PS I advise you to read S. Morrison and F. Ruge, it is their compatriots who fought against each other in the Atlantic. Im and cards in hand.
          1. LeonidL
            LeonidL 15 January 2020 00: 29
            +1
            Konstantin! Drozhzhin, a retired capraz, a very knowledgeable person, worked on the book using the archives of the Navy. His second book "The Best Underwater Aces of the Second World War". Sorry, Konstantin, but I think the State Historical Museum is not the most competent place on this topic. In the first half of the war, the numbers were indeed more or less correct; from the second half, they were credited in full. Doenitz knew about this, but preferred to keep quiet. As I wrote, Soviet submariners also had errors in counting, most often for objective reasons.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 15 January 2020 05: 34
              +1
              I worked on a book using the archives of the Navy ... I think GMM is not the most competent place on the subject.

              Good morning Leonid! hi These are just the archives of the USSR Navy, in my opinion, not quite a competent source, especially on foreign fleets. As for the GIM, a man is not the only GIM, at that time I had enough connections with the leading museums of the country, including in Leningrad and Sevastopol, and in the General Staff of the Navy in Moscow there were friends. And any available information could be obtained without problems, and I had a lot of questions after the book of F. Ruge, and for many I received exhaustive answers, both from the historians of the Navy and from the current officers of the fleet. Now, of course, this is easier, but, as far as I can tell from the weapon themes that are close to me, it would be better for some authors not to undertake this work at all. Naturally, I’m not talking about Drozhkin, I haven’t read it and I don’t presume to judge.
              1. LeonidL
                LeonidL 16 January 2020 04: 06
                +1
                Greetings, Konstantin! The fact is that the huge tonnages and high-profile victories of the Doenitz aces fall on the years when the transports either went without convoys at all, or with very weak security. They were drowned in packs from the surface or generally with artillery fire. It's like fishing in an aquarium. As soon as the convoy system started working, losses began, the tonnage fell, and the number of boats killed increased. Doenitz transferred the submarine to the shores of America, it became hot there - to Africa ... But over time it became hot everywhere - heavy PLO aircraft with UHF radars appeared, new PLO ships in large numbers ... It became possible to attack only from under the water and from great distances. The Germans were already launching homing torpedoes, but ... but they did not reach the target either. But the "count" went, though not in hundreds of thousands of tons per boat ... I will give a few examples of "additions" - 12/1942 "U-392" attributed the destroyer and transport. 12/1942 - "U-545" - attributed the sinking of three transports to ... 19400 tons. 20-21 / 09 42 - six boats reported the sinking of a destroyer or frigate ... not a single hit. The U-543 commander assigned two destroyers without sinking a single one, but received the Knight's Cross! February 1945 - a report on the sinking of nine transports from the convoy - in fact, only two ... and so on. There are many such examples, especially after 1942. By that time, the real aces of the first years either died or were captured, and the young ... Well, just like in the sky.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 16 January 2020 07: 14
                  +1
                  Greetings Leonid! I have now re-read everything that you and I wrote here and noticed that we are practically talking about the same thing. After all, in the very first post I named the names of the commanders whose victories no one doubts. And these are far from all surnames. smile
                  1. LeonidL
                    LeonidL 17 January 2020 03: 07
                    +1
                    We will dwell on this joyful fact! Good luck
  11. Octopus
    Octopus 12 January 2020 08: 02
    -5
    At first, the author pretends to be objective.
    Then it begins to seem that the author is misunderstanding something.
    But then the author finishes twisting feints and begins to just lie directly. This is not good.
    None of the surviving German experts have intelligible, reliable and complete documents.

    441 German fighters have 20+ accounts. Statement that none of them does not have flight books requires slightly more proof than "details by letter".
    None of the German aces in his memoirs convincingly confirmed and described all of their sorties,

    Does the author spree on Deutsch? Or is it him none Regarding translations into Russian?
    The number of sorties and fights that some experts have indicated is highly doubtful

    Naturally, this statement does not require any evidence.
    With careful documentary verification, it turned out that many German “victories” simply didn’t exist,

    Wow, with a counter check of the application / loss of the application was not confirmed. What a discovery!
    The record of the German “victories” was simple and did not require the obligatory (as with Soviet pilots) confirmation of the ground forces and the presentation of the wreckage of a downed aircraft.

    Direct lies. Naturally, the Soviet standards did not require any wreckage of the aircraft, it was still not enough to drive pilots through the swamps behind the front line to search for wreckage. Moreover, the Germans, as a rule, used a light machine gun, while the Soviet side noted an interesting effect: units equipped with light machine guns, for example, the elite 176th Guards. Iap Kozheduba, had lower performance (in relation, say, to the consumption of shells) than the neighboring regiments without photo guns. Such a strange coincidence.
    also encouraged the German command, which condescendingly looked through the fingers at the doubtfulness of many "victories" of experts and easily affirmed them.

    There was a “neck disease” among German experts: a rapid increase in the number of “victories” on the eve of reaching the anniversary figure

    Yes, in Germany there were Panfilov’s.
    Flying German commanders usually always appropriated and recorded to themselves all those shot down by their group

    Direct lies. Under the word usually the author refers to such cases that he saw two or three times.
    Experts (like all German fighter pilots) always dodged and avoided fighting with an equal and - especially - superior enemy in numbers and skill.

    Direct lies. This time in the word always. Yes, German tactics really do not involve dumps, even with aces, at least not with aces. Yes, German tactics really involve hunting newcomers and wounded animals, leading under attack came relatively rarely. However, the tactics feature is presented as some kind of personal cowardice of experts.
    At the same time, Kozhedub and most famous Soviet aces have never been shot down!

    It is true that most of the top aces were also extremely lucky in parachute jumping. However, the author presents this fact as "if they would fly well - they would not fall" or what?
    More than half of the German aces died in general, and 2/3 of them died on the German-Soviet, Eastern Front.

    Out of 421 20+ fighter planes, 182 died. Of 105 100+ fighter planes, 51 were killed. It is not clear what the author wants to deduce from this. What B.F. Safonov is a bad pilot, since he crashed, and I.N. Kozhedub is good, since he wasn’t shot down, or what?
    The most famous and successful German fighter squadron, the JG54 Green Heart (Grünherz), began operations in the USSR with 112 pilots, and only 4 of the original 112 ended the war (only every 24 survived, 108 were killed) with 2135 aircraft losses (Soviet pilots destroyed more than 19 squadrons of the Gruherts squadron!)

    1. In which of these groups did the author include V. Novotny? In 108 shot down by Soviet pilots?
    2. The author somehow forgot to mention that the 54th fought on all fronts, not just the East.
    But the main and most significant argument "against" ... I can not believe it at all!

    This is the only argument made by the author.
    So, the Germans announced that they shot down 95 thousand Soviet planes on the Eastern Front: 46 thousand with 900 experts (including more than 15 thousand shot down by 104 experts with more than 100 “victories”), 6 thousand - another 1000 pilots, 31 thousand - anti-aircraft gunners, 12 thousand - gunners. But after all, the USSR had only 46100 combat losses of aircraft during the entire war!

    That speaks of the amazing, implausible honesty of the Germans, they lied only twice. Kozhedub and the company later shot down 832 Sabers (combined with OVA) out of 275 lost in Korea, coefficient 3.
    The former Allies also did not particularly restrain themselves, I must admit.
    However, it is also a lot and far superior to the accounts of the best Soviet and Union aces! But if almost the entire war in a powerful high-speed fighter was only scouring in search of easy and safe targets, and exclusively engaged in shooting down the wounded, novices, inexperienced, weak pilots on wrecked and slow-moving aircraft, in every possible way avoiding not only strong and equal rivals, but also battles in general, then the number is quite real and achievable with intensive flight activity and a huge number of goals throughout the war. About the same for all other experts.

    Exactly. Not all war, however, specifically Hartmann has fought since the end of the 42nd. Indeed, Hartmann did not participate in the German championship on honesty, so the number of people actually shot down was not exactly 352 and, quite possibly, less than that of Barkhorn or one of 200 people.

    But this is not enough.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 15: 56
      +5
      An octopus, and after all, a direct lie - all your arguments! I won’t be surprised if it turns out that your last name is mentioned in the fifth paragraph of the article. And why do you love experts so much and hate Soviet pilots and the USSR?
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 17: 01
        -11
        )))
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        direct lies - all your arguments!

        You have an unhealthy love for the word "everything."
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        I won’t be surprised if it turns out that your last name is mentioned in the fifth paragraph of the article.

        )))
        No.
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        And why do you love experts so much and hate Soviet pilots and the USSR?

        Why should I hate Soviet pilots? These are mainly boys sent to death. I have a claim to TT. Alksnis, Loktionov, Smushkevich, Rychagov, Zhigarev, Novikov. All but Zhigarev are enemies of the people, I recall.

        Well, to comrade Stalin, of course. Wow, appointed to the command of the Air Force some enemies of the people, where he only found them in such numbers? Did they have a club there?
        1. andr6
          andr6 12 January 2020 18: 56
          -11
          Quote: Octopus
          Well, to comrade Stalin, of course. Wow, he appointed some enemies of the people to the Air Force command,

          Yes, it was very unprofessional. He only promoted the enemies of the people to command and leadership positions.
          Well, at least the NKVD opened his eyes to him.
          But here, without the enemies of the people could not do. The People's Commissars of the NKVD, Yezhov and Yagoda also turned out to be enemies. And both of them were also assigned to them.
          So, the fish rots from the head.
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 12 January 2020 19: 05
            -3
            Quote: andr6
            Yezhov and Yagoda also turned out to be enemies

            The berry was also a Jew. But Yezhov is generally such a goose that he just spits after.
            Yes, that’s what happens. An intelligent man, works well, they envy him, they dig under him. And if he is also a brave man, he says what he thinks, and causes discontent and attracts the attention of suspicious Chekists who do not know the affairs themselves, but willingly use all sorts of rumors and gossip. Yezhov bastard! Decayed man. Calling him at the People's Commissariat - they say: he left for the Central Committee. You call the Central Committee - they say: he left for work. You send to his house - it turns out, lies dead drunk on the bed. He killed many innocents. We shot him for it
            1. andr6
              andr6 12 January 2020 19: 11
              -10
              I forgot Beria. Also, after all, Dzhugashviley is an advanced and appointed People's Commissar of the NKVD.
              Only his "hostility to the people" became clear after Dzhugashvili's death.
              "Excellent" managerial result - three people's commissars during the entire existence of the NKVD under Dzhugashvil, and all three are enemies of the people.
              Already starting to think, maybe it was all not by chance? Maybe Dzhugashvilya was also the enemy of the people?
      2. lucul
        lucul 12 January 2020 19: 04
        +1
        An octopus, and after all, a direct lie - all your arguments! I won’t be surprised if it turns out that your last name is mentioned in the fifth paragraph of the article. And why do you love experts so much and hate Soviet pilots and the USSR?

        Well then welcome to the internet war .....
        Haifa is a trollite of you here, and you seriously think that you are communicating with ordinary Russians)))))
        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          13 January 2020 13: 49
          +1
          Yes, I'm actually new to the comments. I’ve been reading articles for a long time, but there’s always not been enough time for comments. Thanks for the useful information! yes
      3. Schekn Irtch
        Schekn Irtch 13 January 2020 12: 53
        0
        Do not go to emotions, pliz ...
    2. albert
      albert 12 January 2020 16: 25
      +3
      Quote: Octopus
      Kozhedub and the company later shot down 832 Sabers (combined with OVA) out of 275 lost in Korea, coefficient 3.

      Oh well? And where is it talked about? About Sabers, pin dos first said that they had lost only 76 cars during the Korean War, when they shot down 1500 blinks, that’s where it’s pure lies. Only then this figure increased to 275. And this is not the final data.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 17: 11
        -8
        Quote: albert
        lost only 76 cars during the Korean War, when 1500 shots were shot down

        Quote: Octopus
        The former Allies also did not particularly restrain themselves, I must admit.

        Quote: Octopus
        That speaks of the amazing, implausible honesty of the Germans, they lied only twice.
    3. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 17: 56
      +6
      Quote: Octopus
      Kozhedub and the company later shot down 832 Sabers (combined with OVA) out of 275 lost in Korea, coefficient 3.
      Yes, yes, of course, that's just the amer rescue service pulled out
      The fixed-wing and helicopter air crews of the command were credited with 996 combat saves in the Korean War
      Of course, with 275 Sabers, almost a thousand pilots jumped with parachutes, and even jumped. The Americans are the same nonsense as the Germans. And you, if you seriously believe them, you are at least naive.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 01
        -9
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Of course, with 275 Sabers, almost a thousand pilots jumped with parachutes, and even jumped.

        The Americans did not conduct any other combat work, unlike 64 IAK.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 12
          +5
          Quote: Octopus
          The Americans did not conduct any other combat work, unlike 64 IAK.
          And did they fight on the ground with planes themselves? They were shot down like that, and mostly IA. And notice
          Quote: Octopus
          it's from 275 Sabers almost a thousand pilots jumped
          Saved ALIVE, but how many did not save, and how many were killed right away, right in the cockpit?
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 18
            -10
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Saved ALIVE, but how many did not save, and how many were killed right away, right in the cockpit?

            Again. Do you know what the UN losses were by type of aircraft?
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 24
              +4
              What are you talking about?
              Quote: Octopus
              Again. Do you know what the UN losses were by type of aircraft
              That is, Saber plane, and the rest so? For some reason, you only considered Sabers at first, and only now have you remembered the UN. What means again? Good, againabout the UN you only now remembered.
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 35
                -7
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                That is, Saber plane, and the rest so?

                I specifically gave the loss of MiG-Saber, as the simplest case. For some reason, you started giving statistics on the work of rescuers, which concerned everyone.

                The total losses of the UN are naturally higher than the Soviet ones. If one side has aviation, and the second fights only with the latest fighters, but does not work on the ground, then the losses on the side that has aviation are higher.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 48
                  +6
                  Wagging begins
                  Quote: Octopus
                  I specifically gave the loss of MiG-Saber, as the simplest case.
                  Actually, the comment was

                  Quote: Octopus
                  So, the Germans announced that they shot down 95 thousand Soviet planes on the Eastern Front: 46 thousand with 900 experts (including more than 15 thousand shot down by 104 experts with more than 100 “victories”), 6 thousand - another 1000 pilots, 31 thousand - anti-aircraft gunners, 12 thousand - gunners. But after all, the USSR had only 46100 combat losses of aircraft during the entire war!

                  That speaks of the amazing, implausible honesty of the Germans, they lied only twice. Kozhedub and the company later shot down 832 Sabers (combined with OVA) out of 275 lost in Korea, coefficient 3.

                  Those. at first everything was against everyone, but then bam and only Sabers remembered, and so it was arranged, as if only Sabers had fought in Korea.
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 52
                    -9
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    and here the bam and only Sabers remembered, and so it was arranged, as if only Sabers had fought in Korea.

                    Yes, only Sabers, which he wrote directly about. This is problem? Do you really want Migi against the Mustangs with the Corsairs to count? So yes, they have bent the capitalists.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 19: 07
                      +5
                      write down
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Yes, only Sabers, which he wrote directly about. This is problem
                      And why then La-7 and FV-190 are not compared? What is the simplest case?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      You really want Migi vs Mustangs with Corsairs to count

                      Actually, the Amertsians, the Germans and Po-2 were not shy about recording them. But for example, the B-29 in the ranks, Shuting is old, Panther, Meteor, a shameful target, in your opinion?
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 12 January 2020 19: 32
                        -8
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What is the simplest case?

                        And were these two aircraft the only fighters on their theater?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Actually, the Amertsians, the Germans and Po-2 were not shy about recording them.

                        Do not be shy. Therefore, I am talking only about Mig and only about Saber.
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 03: 28
                        +4
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Therefore, I am only talking about the Mig and only about Saber

                        А THESE two planes were apparently the only ones in Korea, so your way out. And about the "simple case" is wagging from wagging.
                      3. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 06: 26
                        -7
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        THESE two planes were apparently the only ones in Korea, so in your opinion

                        Well, finally it dawned on you. Yes, the Mig-Saber case is good because Saber did not work on the ground, and there were practically no other military reasons for his losses, except for meeting with Mig.
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 06: 37
                        +3
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Well, finally it dawned on you

                        But it never dawned on you that most of the US and UN planes were shot down by the IA of North Korea, China and Soviet "advisers" (said nicely)).
                      5. Octopus
                        Octopus 13 January 2020 06: 43
                        -6
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        most of the US and UN planes were shot down by the IA of North Korea, China and Soviet "advisers"

                        And who argued with this? My task was to establish the Munchausen coefficient in combat statistics, for which this particular aircraft is optimal. On the one hand, it is difficult to confuse him with something, on the other hand, his losses for reasons other than the actions of the IA can be neglected.
  12. Strashila
    Strashila 12 January 2020 08: 09
    +8
    "3. The number of sorties and battles that some experts indicated is very doubtful. No, of course, they fought continuously, intensively and quite effectively. But ask those who have flown and are flying: is it possible for 2-3 years almost every day to make 3-4 sorties with many battles? ... You will be told that this is possible only theoretically! "
    And then I remembered an article about magic pills on the VO website, which seemed to be what they wrote in the reports.
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 12 January 2020 11: 45
      +7
      The number of sorties and fights that some experts have indicated is highly doubtful.


      Still how doubtful. What is only this passage of Vrudel:

      In the evening I commit seventeenth departure for this day and we carefully look at the battlefield. Here it is quiet, everything is wiped off the face of the earth.
      1. Flatter
        Flatter 12 January 2020 14: 33
        -5
        The number of sorties should not be surprising. If the practical range of the Messerschmidt was about 670 km, then the La-5, for example, 1000 km. Soviet pilots stayed in the air longer, unlike the German ones, refueling-takeoff, etc. plus increased fatigue, under such conditions the presence of radio communications for the Germans was of paramount importance.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 12 January 2020 15: 39
          +5
          The number of sorties should not be surprising.


          Suspension of bombs, refueling, take-off, climb (with 2 bombs for at least 20 minutes), approaching the target, attack, return, landing. If the daylight hours are 17 hours, then one flight per hour. No breaks. Absolutely unrealistic.
          Modern jet aircraft with incomparable speed perform maximum 3-5 flights per day.
          1. Flatter
            Flatter 12 January 2020 16: 38
            -4
            Airfields are 20-30 km from the front. Fuel supply is one-third less than that of Soviet fighters. Separate 5-7 German missions by three, and get approximately the same pilots stay time in the air. Small fuel supply and range are a serious disadvantage
          2. Flatter
            Flatter 13 January 2020 09: 14
            -2
            For fighters of the Yakovlev family 1941-1945, g-climb to a height of 5 km with a full combat load of 4 to 7 minutes; Charging, refueling in Formula 1 mode during intense collisions, from memories. Taxiing, take-off from the hot state for a few minutes. 5- 7 sorties really.
            1. Alf
              Alf 13 January 2020 16: 43
              +2
              Quote: Flatter
              5-7 sorties really.

              Of course it’s real. If in the cabs cyborgs are sitting. How many times in the memoirs did the pilots write that after the 4th departure there was no force to get out of the cockpit.
              1. Flatter
                Flatter 13 January 2020 17: 04
                -1
                Fights on Kursk. Our pilots make 8-9 sorties a day
                http://ww2airbattles.org/pages/
                How many sorties will a German make having half the tank capacity
                1. Alf
                  Alf 13 January 2020 17: 07
                  +1
                  Quote: Flatter
                  Fights on Kursk. Our pilots make 8-9 sorties a day
                  http://ww2airbattles.org/pages/
                  How many sorties will a German make having half the tank capacity

                  Really 17?
                  1. Flatter
                    Flatter 13 January 2020 17: 54
                    -1
                    This is real, of course, not for everyone.
                    1. Alf
                      Alf 13 January 2020 19: 16
                      +1
                      Quote: Flatter
                      This is real, of course, not for everyone.

                      Translate please.
                      1. Flatter
                        Flatter 13 January 2020 19: 31
                        -1
                        Sorry, not for all pilots
                      2. Alf
                        Alf 13 January 2020 19: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Flatter
                        Sorry, not for all pilots

                        And for what?
  13. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 12 January 2020 09: 16
    +1
    Good article. There are minor flaws that do not affect the quality of work. Respect to the author.
  14. Free wind
    Free wind 12 January 2020 09: 25
    0
    Lose dozens of aircraft under your booty, and stay alive? Rudel knocked out a tank, TANK., Pilots, of course, were aces.
  15. CommanderDIVA
    CommanderDIVA 12 January 2020 09: 26
    +6
    Best of all, this area of ​​the Second World War is described in the book by Alexei Isaev "10 Myths of the Second World War", where an analysis of the large accounts of the Germans is carried out in detail, at least I have not read anything better, the tactics of the Germans were very well covered in their memoirs of the GSS Skomorokhs "Fighter lives in combat" and GSS Vorozheikin "Soldiers of Heaven", there are electronic versions in Litmir, for the preparation of the Germans he remembered B. with heavy losses on the eastern front, but the fact remains, we still did the Germans and their allies, our ancestors bow low
  16. mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 12 January 2020 09: 57
    0
    Become for "a wide range of amateurs"
    I didn’t like it, but it was long, and there were two lists of pros and cons, but the reasoning was at the level of emotions. There are many of them on the Internet and aviation magazines, there is even a whole book by the "historian" Mukhin. Many various indirect facts cast doubt on the reliability of the victories of the German pilots, but when there will be serious work with analysis, with numbers. Long ago I stopped buying books on the history of aviation because of their stereotyped.
  17. parusnik
    parusnik 12 January 2020 10: 01
    +8
    When you read the memoir of German pilots and not only, you wonder if Soviet planes were so famously shot down, destroyed Soviet equipment, tanks, guns, manpower, so why did they ultimately lose decisive battles: near Moscow, Stalingrad, on the Kursk Bulge, etc. d .. Do not razed Leningrad to the ground and you understand this memoir is the creation of a myth: they lost because the Soviet corpses threw us in heaven, on land and at sea ... Thanks to the author for the article ...
    1. Strashila
      Strashila 12 January 2020 11: 58
      +2
      "When you read the memoirs of German pilots and not only, you wonder if Soviet planes were so dashingly shot down, they destroyed Soviet equipment, tanks, guns, manpower, so why did they end up losing decisive battles", and when you read the memoirs of German infantrymen, those write about the absence of their own aviation and the constant attacks of the Soviet.
      1. BAI
        BAI 12 January 2020 15: 02
        -1
        Nothing like this. The absence of its own aircraft was noted only by Manstein in the Crimea and only until the appearance of the Richtofen corps (which is Wolfram von).
        In the remaining cases, the German infantry constantly noted the high efficiency of their air strikes, and that air support was always provided. This is even taking into account the fact that the Germans concentrated aviation on the decisive sections of the front, exposing the remaining sections.
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 12 January 2020 16: 24
      0
      And what memoirs of German pilots did you read?
    3. Octopus
      Octopus 12 January 2020 17: 12
      -3
      Quote: parusnik
      why, in the end, the decisive battles were lost: near Moscow, Stalingrad, on the Kursk, etc.

      And which of these battles did they lose in the air? Stalingrad with Goering lies about supplying the boiler by air, or what?
  18. A hundred
    A hundred 12 January 2020 10: 05
    +1
    The Germans were "aces" in 41-42 after almost all of our aviation at the airfields was destroyed. The favorite entertainment of the "aces" was single hunting and not for the military, etc. I don’t want to write this, as much as a lump in my throat .. padly Then we got ours in full. soldier
  19. Amateur
    Amateur 12 January 2020 10: 09
    +3
    Quote: Santa Fe
    But to copy the organization, motivation and self-awareness of the inhabitants of the Zap. Europe was not

    In spite of
    organization, motivation and self-awareness of residents of Western countries. Europe was not
    , which piled on the USSR, our Motherland piled on them all in full. And the Germans, and the Hungarians with the Romanians, and the rest of the European community. On May 9, 1945, it was the Soviet soldier who celebrated the victory. It is for this that all santafailers do not like the USSR.
  20. Ros 56
    Ros 56 12 January 2020 10: 57
    -1
    Of course, I did not dig so deeply, but on the whole I agree with the conclusions, the Germans have a lot of nonsense in the number of their victories. And one more fact about Kozhedub, according to him, he was shot down once, had to jump with a parachute and once had to board a forced one. And of course he shot down more than 62 aircraft, but .... that's another story.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      13 January 2020 14: 03
      +2
      About the fact that Kozhedub got lost and jumped with a parachute is not true. It is also not true that he sat on the forced one. I was knocked out more than once, but I always brought the plane to the airfield and landed. And in the Great Patriotic War he shot down 62 Germans + 2 American Mustangs = 64.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 13 January 2020 14: 18
        -8
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        62 Germans + 2 American Mustangs = 64.

        We arrived, also Mustangs with blacks, where would they be without them.
        Today, when I am pretty familiar with this topic

        All clear.
    2. Ros 56
      Ros 56 13 January 2020 15: 58
      0
      Did you see or communicate with him?
  21. 2112vda
    2112vda 12 January 2020 11: 20
    +17
    Experts not only shot down planes but also raged over the roads. My grandfather told me how one was shot down on the Volga in Stalingrad. He was captured and brought to the airfield where Vasily Iosifovich Stalin was. Stalin was told that the German shot women and children crossing the Volga. This "hero" on the orders of Stalin V.I. shot. My grandfather saw it all. Two of my relatives, fighter pilots, were killed in the battles at Stalingrad. One died in the Svetloyarsk region, the other over the German airfield in the village of Tatsinskaya, this is 42 years old. My mother, aunt and grandmother spent 10 days in the trenches under continuous German bombing. When the bombing was over, pieces of people, horses, cows and other animals were lying on the road along which the refugees were walking. These are the "experts" they are. The morons who are now praising these "knights" just need to beat the face.
    1. BAI
      BAI 12 January 2020 14: 52
      -3
      shot down on the Volga in Stalingrad. He was captured and brought to the airport where Vasily Iosifovich Stalin was.

      With all due respect, where did Stalin come from? Stalin was at the front once - near Rzhev.
      To bring a German pilot to Moscow to be shot there on Stalin’s personal order?

      The option presented in the figure is not considered.
      Even with statements like:
      In total, there were no less than 10 such trips. There are no exact data, since all of them were carried out in a regime of extreme secrecy, because Stalin went to the front at the most difficult and dangerous moments for the country, in the very "hell".
      1. Vladimir Mashkov
        12 January 2020 16: 05
        +6
        You are very inattentive (or maybe ...?). Basil - NOT Joseph.
      2. albert
        albert 12 January 2020 16: 31
        +3
        Quote: BAI
        With all due respect, where did Stalin come from? Stalin was at the front once - near Rzhev.

        So we are talking about the son of Joseph Vissarionovich, Vasily, and not about Stalin himself.
        1. BAI
          BAI 12 January 2020 21: 15
          +2
          I agree. The name is confused. I apologize.
      3. Nitochkin
        Nitochkin 12 January 2020 19: 14
        +1
        Quote: BAI
        shot down on the Volga in Stalingrad. He was captured and brought to the airport where Vasily Iosifovich Stalin was.

        With all due respect, where did Stalin come from? Stalin was at the front once - near Rzhev.
        To bring a German pilot to Moscow to be shot there on Stalin’s personal order?

        The option presented in the figure is not considered.
        Even with statements like:
        In total, there were no less than 10 such trips. There are no exact data, since all of them were carried out in a regime of extreme secrecy, because Stalin went to the front at the most difficult and dangerous moments for the country, in the very "hell".

        Basil, not Joseph.
  22. Sidor Amenpodestovich
    Sidor Amenpodestovich 12 January 2020 11: 21
    0
    Simply excellent, decoration of the site.
    Dear author! Can anyone count on a similar article on American pilots during the Vietnam conflict?
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 16: 13
      +6
      Dear Sidor Flavievich! Unfortunately no. The topic of the Vietnam War is not very interesting to me and is well studied. Someone will probably describe someday.
      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 12 January 2020 17: 22
        0
        Thanks for the reply.
  23. smaug78
    smaug78 12 January 2020 11: 27
    -10
    An article from the series "I really want to write something"
    1. Captain45
      Captain45 12 January 2020 17: 31
      +3
      Quote: smaug78
      An article from the series "I really want to write something"

      An article from the series - such as you need to constantly remind who won the WWII and at what cost the victory went!
    2. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 17: 40
      +4
      Boris! Nothing is easier than writing something more significant and publishing your writings! It seems to me that most commentators are normal people and correctly rated my article and topic. Or are you just jealous?
  24. Pavel57
    Pavel57 12 January 2020 11: 32
    +2
    There are postscripts in any war.
    1. Alf
      Alf 12 January 2020 21: 25
      +3
      Quote: Pavel57
      There are postscripts in any war.

      Of course.
      But, it’s one thing when a pilot ascribes one or two victories to himself because of his mistake, and it’s quite another thing when the system of posts is encouraged and directly enforced by the state.
  25. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 12 January 2020 11: 33
    +3
    Thanks to the author, a very interesting article, I myself am interested in this topic ..
    However, there are a few nuances ...
    1. On losses: ours talk about 46100 shot down, Germans about 95000 .. well, usually to find an approximate truth - you need to take a figure in the middle i.e. about 70000 .. ours could also not be considered shot down, for example, an airplane arriving at the airport, but no longer suitable for flight, etc. That is, postscript / undersubscription I think is mutual.
    2. "Knockers" well, yes .. "falcon strike" is not an air battle, but knocking down knocked-down / novices / invisible attacks is not an indicator of skill (although you also need to be able to). In classic air combat, we had pilots no worse, or even better, fact ... But! a sniper in a war, too, is not engaged in assault and will probably do it worse than a submachine gunner, but at the same time it often inflicts more damage on the enemy .. I think if the same Pokryshkin would have been the same in the same place, in the same place, then they would have considered victory.
    3. Awards / posts .. well, it has always been with everyone, just the Germans noticeably more ..
    4. The most important thing .. The above is possible simply because real competitors in terms of performance characteristics of the Germans appeared in the middle of the Second World War with the advent of LA-5F (FN) and Yak-3 .. After all, when you go to a Ferrari it’s easy to beat the Fords even if the level of training is the same .. But how normal planes came .. I think that aviation is the weakest point of the Red Army in 1941 .. And the statistics .. We won, not them ..

    In conclusion .. thanks again to the grandfathers for the fact that in those conditions and on those machines, they managed to fight and win! Every aerial victory in 1941, in my opinion costs two in 1945
    1. Schekn Irtch
      Schekn Irtch 13 January 2020 12: 56
      0
      I would be entitled to appoint a first level adviser. Weighted, smart comment. Thank.
    2. Vladimir Mashkov
      13 January 2020 16: 35
      +1
      Level 2 advisor! Are you offering me an amicable compromise with experts and "honest" Western "historians"? I do not agree !!! In addition, THIS has already happened: Hitler, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, ... And what did it lead to? smile
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 13 January 2020 18: 42
        0
        Vladimir, what compromises, I am for an objective assessment. My human opinion is in the conclusion of my comment. It was not the leaders who fought, but the pilots, and the article is not about the moral qualities of the Nazis, but about the air war.
        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          13 January 2020 20: 27
          +1
          I explain (my previous comment was mistakenly shortened).
          I meant by loss: not yours, not ours?
          And about the "hunters". They appeared in the USSR from the Kuban. And the first, it seems, was Alexander Ivanovich. And at the end of the war regiments of "hunters" appeared. But it was not they who pulled out the war, but the "air war workers" who defended flying, moving and stationary objects.
          And postscripts, injustices with awards, of course, were. But significantly less than the Germans.
  26. aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 12 January 2020 11: 37
    0
    Has anyone played Tanks, WOT? the difference between a tough tanker and a deer is 3-5% wins! how much does victory in the technology of that time depend on personal qualities and reactions, and how much depends on the technical characteristics of the equipment ??? How is luck so different? the technique was the same ....
  27. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 January 2020 11: 59
    0
    The author is right in everything.

    А my sincere respect for him not only for the article, but also for the wonderful author’s signature:
    anti-fascist, anti-Maidan, permanent member of the Immortal Regiment in Nikolaev, the son and father-in-law of participants of the Great Patriotic War. Writes from the occupied territory
    hi

    Ps only, probably not "father-in-law", after all, but "son-in-law" hi
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 16: 27
      +6
      Andrey, thanks for the rating. And I fully agree with you. Of course, not father-in-law, but the son of a machine gunner near Stalingrad, the commander of a platoon of anti-tank rifles in the Kuban and the commander of reconnaissance of an anti-tank battery until the end of the war (Crimea and East Prussia). smile
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 January 2020 18: 15
        -1
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        Andrey, thanks for the rating. And I fully agree with you. Of course, not father-in-law, but the son of a machine gunner near Stalingrad, the commander of a platoon of anti-tank rifles in the Kuban and the commander of reconnaissance of an anti-tank battery until the end of the war (Crimea and East Prussia).

        Good luck, Vladimir, health and - take care! hi
    2. dgonni
      dgonni 12 January 2020 19: 45
      -11
      Og. Straight encryption Eustace Alex. I see how the author, hiding in the attic, frantically connects the Internet and quietly sends an article to VO. Afraid of healthy ukrov.
      There the cockroach writes calmly and is not encrypted. I don’t understand why the ento circus.
  28. Operator
    Operator 12 January 2020 12: 50
    +6
    Objective information:
    - the method of confirming the air victories of the Germans was based on the statements of the pilots themselves (shots of light machine guns do not count - at best, they show smoke, and not the fall of the enemy aircraft);
    - the difference in the total number of downed Soviet aircraft according to German and Soviet data is more than twofold (plus losses from operations on the Eastern Front of the German Allied aviation);
    - in connection with the peculiarities of the mentality in the Luftwaffe, it was customary to attribute asss to victories in the group (in the Air Force of the Red Army - on the contrary, victories in the group were not attributed to asses).

    In this connection, the declared victories of the German aces must be at least divided by three.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 15
      +2
      Well, all the same, both the explosion of the plane and the loss of the wing, for example, were often recorded at the FKP.
      1. Operator
        Operator 12 January 2020 19: 05
        0
        Most of the shots are when a projectile / shells hit an enemy aircraft, followed by smoke, after which the German ace left the battlefield according to the tactics used.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 19: 09
          +2
          Well, if there were such recommendations, then it is clear why there are a lot of "downed" planes.
  29. Dizel200
    Dizel200 12 January 2020 13: 11
    +2
    Good article.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 13 January 2020 19: 07
      +1
      Quote: Dizel200
      Good article.

      And most importantly informative and objective.
  30. BAI
    BAI 12 January 2020 14: 35
    -2
    1.
    3. The number of sorties and fights that some experts have indicated is highly doubtful. No, of course, they fought continuously, intensively and fairly productively. But ask those who have flown and are flying: is it possible to complete 2-3 sorties with many battles almost every day for 3-4 years? (Again, injured, hospital, illness, rest home - albeit short-term - vacation to Germany ...

    I think it is possible. They were young (24 - 27 years old), healthy, athletic guys who worked for wear and tear, out of sports interest. Plus - tonic drugs.
    2. By the number of fights - Kozhedub entered the first battle, after staying on the front for 2 - 3 months. FEW MONTHS! he flew without meeting the enemy.
    3.
    The Germans were free hunters, choosing victims easier, safer,

    The method is not important, the result is important. Knightly warfare by that time was long in the past. The main thing is to destroy the enemy, everything else is secondary. The winner (the one who survived) will be right.

    "And what does he have - around five hundred,
    And who will survive whom
    He will prove that he was right,
    When screwed "
    V. Vysotsky
    4. Well, and most importantly, the author, in fact, noted that the Germans had much more goals and opportunities to bring down the enemy than the Soviet and allied pilots. The Germans had significantly fewer planes than the opposing sides.
    The numbers of victories for the Germans, of course, are overstated, but in any case higher (more) than ours
    1. Rostislav Bely
      Rostislav Bely 12 January 2020 15: 41
      +1
      You can't fight drugs for a long time - the children of German "alcoholics" could not produce a healthy generation in mass, although the education was higher - compare the consumption of alcohol per capita in Germany and Russia ...
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 12 January 2020 18: 17
      +4
      Quote: BAI
      I think it is possible. They were young (24 - 27 years old), healthy, athletic guys who worked for wear and tear, out of sports interest. Plus - tonic drugs

      Pervitin and the like, a very hard drug, well, a day, well, two and that's it! But in addition to the pilot himself, there is also a plane, and under narcotics it’s not possible to serve it quickly, it’s just normal.
  31. Rostislav Bely
    Rostislav Bely 12 January 2020 15: 14
    +2
    Thank you, though a little tedious - you need to build an article in this case as a conclusion, first conclusions, and then a detailed analysis of the points, this part should be placed upstairs:
    But most objective researchers call the following numbers of combat losses: the Luftwaffe - 58850 aircraft and 50883 pilots, and the Red Army Air Force - 46100 aircraft and 34500 pilots (with a significant number of non-combat aircraft losses, mainly in the initial period and the first half of the war). And if we take into account the losses of the German allies and volunteers from the enslaved countries of Europe, who fought against the USSR together with the Germans, then the losses of the Hitlerite coalition will be even greater. So who then and whom did he “fill up with corpses” and “downed planes”?

    figures of combat losses: the Luftwaffe - 58850 aircraft and 50883 pilots - is it on the eastern front, or with the British together?
    My father fell under the bombing in Stalingrad as a child, they ironed there before the offensive decently (shell shock) half-ton bombs were scary ... My grandmother told stories - the German smoked and sat on the field, the trophies are running happy like they will be taken prisoner, the authorities will note - but it turns out he just lit a smoke bomb and as they approached a critical distance, waved their hands faster, sits in the cockpit and takes off ... the question in single combat thus avoided a collision, or simply made fun
    1. mixas55
      mixas55 12 January 2020 16: 07
      -7
      21213: 52311 in favor of the Western theater of operations. In total, 73524 of the 86733 Luftwaffe aircraft lost at the fronts during the war were counted - it was not possible to "trace the fate" of 13209 aircraft. Even if we assume that all of them were lost in the last months of the war in the East, then the "final score" will take the form 21213 + 13209 = 34422: 52311 in favor of the Western theater of operations (c).
      Where did the author get the figure, 58850 aircraft, there is a great mystery.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 17: 15
        -3
        Quote: mixas55
        that they were all lost in the last months of the war in the East

        In the last months of the East and West was gone.
      2. Octopus
        Octopus 12 January 2020 17: 28
        -2
        Quote: mixas55
        21213: 52311 in favor of the Western theater of operations. In total, 73524 of the 86733 Luftwaffe aircraft lost at the fronts during the war were counted - it was not possible to "trace the fate" of 13209 aircraft.

        As for unaccounted for, there are no special mysteries there. Pilot training is not free in this sense. EMNIP, the US Navy alone lost just 13 thousand vehicles on training flights.
  32. IL-2
    IL-2 12 January 2020 16: 15
    +2
    The losses of the USSR aviation in the Second World War were divided into 2 parts - combat and non-combat, and many researchers believe that the number of combat losses is comparable to non-combat. In fact, it is obvious that many losses of Soviet aviation in combat conditions also occurred due to mass cases of equipment failure or piloting errors, including loss of orientation in conditions of poor visibility (fog, snow, darkness).
    Thus, to be honest, it is necessary to conduct a detailed study in which:
    1. Set the exact number of aircraft delivered to the troops.
    2. Accurately establish the number of combat losses (subtract non-combat losses at the front and the loss of aircraft on the ground from ground fire and bombing of airfields).
    3. To analyze and compare losses on both sides of all theater of operations for each day of the war.
    4. Conclusions and evidence should be presented to the public in the form of summarized material supported by statistics and documents.
    P.S. I would very much like to see a similar study on tank troops where there is the same dominance of German "expert" tankers who burned our tanks in thousands of kilometers)) But as soon as they got to the Western Front, all of their effectiveness fell somewhere and was not found) And Rudel's tales? Which, on an old Ju-87, attributed to himself 518 destroyed Soviet tanks and 2500 sorties, and sank 70 small ships in another 3 months). At the same time, the Ju-87 troops were gradually replaced by the Focke Wulf 190 and put out of action due to huge losses at the front, partially converted into night bombers starting from the beginning of 1943, and also withdrawn to calmer theaters such as Italy.
    This can be done, if only because there are similar techniques in military medicine with all the statistics on the wounded and dead. dead from wounds and diseases, moreover, the nature of the wounds is seriously taken into account rather than what they were done and to which part of the soldier’s body.
    Of course, there was a commotion of 1941, but even during this period the control of the Air Force was not completely lost and losses were accounted for more or less systematically.
  33. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 12 January 2020 17: 52
    0
    Quote: Undecim
    And what memoirs of German pilots did you read?

    How can you read literary literature Rudel for example, but as a must-read work, I would advise you to read the book Walter Schwabedissen "Stalin's Falcons: An Analysis of the Actions of Soviet Aviation in 1941-1945".
    Published in a monstrously small print run.
    Bought once on occasion.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 18: 49
      +1
      Better than "Militera-Military Literature" NOTHING! There, any person will find whatever their heart desires! And paper book lovers can make a great list and look for a paper version.
  34. Nikolai
    Nikolai 12 January 2020 18: 45
    +2
    Somewhere I saw statistics of losses of pilots and aircraft (American researcher). In 1st place are the Americans (probably due to losses in bomber aircraft). On the second, the Germans, on the third the British, on the fourth the Russians. German "victories" ended in 43 when the Red Army reached parity with the Luftwaffe in the quality of pilot training, tactics, number and quality of aircraft. By the 45th year, the superiority of the Stalinist falcons is already complete.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 12 January 2020 18: 48
      -9
      Quote: Nikolai Alexandrovich
      German "victories" ended in 43rd

      Hartmann only arrived at the front.
      Quote: Nikolai Alexandrovich
      when the Red Army was achieved parity with the Luftwaffe as a pilot training, tactics, quantity and quality of aircraft.

      Has never been achieved. In addition to quantity, in this part of the superiority of the Red Army factor of was originally.
      Quote: Nikolai Alexandrovich
      By the 45th year, the superiority of the Stalinist falcons was already complete.

      Local
  35. Taras mp
    Taras mp 12 January 2020 19: 01
    +1
    Good article. For a long time I myself thought to write not so programmatically but nevertheless. How to evaluate the score? Suppose a man on the street from the back with a knife attacks people how many he will win? And how many people will find such a person who will seek and neutralize such specialists?
    1. destiny20
      destiny20 13 January 2020 19: 13
      -5
      Where is the good article there? here where? poke please. I will gladly accept my words back. article is a dummy! there is nothing to discuss in it. useless to argue with emotions
  36. dgonni
    dgonni 12 January 2020 19: 22
    -8
    The author wanted to make an analysis but unfortunately did not work.
    So yes. The postscript was that on the one that on the other.
    Yes, Pokryshkin’s formula is the speed of fire, licked from the tactics of the Germans and is an ordinary zoom buoy. By the way, there are also questions regarding the Pokryshkinsky shot down.
    And yet, Germany lost 2/3 of experienced pilots on the western front, especially since the moment of mass raids of fortresses.
    And yet, Hartman was struggling to transfer to the Western Front. For to beat the ento fortress is not a free hunt and here we need iron textiles.
    What about the number of declared destroyed Soviet aircraft by Luftwaffe aviation? Then they also showed little.
    Production of the USSR for 1941-1945, 143 thousand aircraft of all types. Plus 20-22 thousand allied supplies.
    On June 22, the air force of the Red Army had something like 12 thousand aircraft at the end of the war, a similar number. Therefore, these indicators level each other. Discarding non-combat losses in the form of tens of thousands of aircraft. We get a spoilage of 150 thousand aircraft lost in battle.
    This is such a la vie.
    And in the place of the author, I would not minimize the losses, but honestly said. Yes, we defeated the very blood of a very strong enemy. And this does not plead in any way with the heroism of our pilots.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 13 January 2020 19: 39
      +1
      Quote: dgonni
      And in the place of the author, I would not minimize the losses, but honestly said.

      You in vain think that all our losses of planes are connected with the victories of German pilots, because Hero of the Soviet Union II. Lezhov in his book described that he personally shot down two Soviet aircraft, one of which was led by Kozhedub. He returned from reconnaissance and was attacked by our airplanes, and, following the order of the command, took measures to repel the attack of our airplanes, which occurred due to erroneous actions and inconsistency of actions of different parts of the Air Force. Moreover, our planes and our air defense systems were shot down:

      So, unlike the boastful German pilots, ours did not hide their victories or their mistakes, and this led to such an imbalance in losses. The author of the article simply drew attention to the most egregious facts of the posts of German pilots, and in fact no one objected to him with argument.
    2. Vladimir Mashkov
      13 January 2020 21: 34
      +2
      For dgonni-djon-A
      I do not like terribly to explain to lazy loafers what they can easily check, calculate themselves, or prove something to the trolls! But I do not like to endure obvious nonsense! Yes, in 1941-1945, 142 thousand aircraft were produced. But ALL (military and civilian), including the whole of 1945. And from 1941 to May 1, 1945, the army received 105 thousand military aircraft (in 1941-1944 a total of 116 thousand, 97 thousand military aircraft were produced). And in 1945 - 26 thousand in all, 8 thousand military = 24/3. We summarize: 97 + 8 + 25 (as of June 22.06.41, 25, the Red Army Air Force included about 1 thousand old aircraft, a considerable number of which were such rarities as TB-3, TB-2, ICBM-5, R-10, Rzet, R- 2, U-12,5; and 18 thousand were on the front line, of which new types were less than a thousand) +148 thousand (Lend-Lease). Total - 56 thousand combat aircraft. After the end of World War II, 148 thousand remained. Losses in the Second World War: 56-92 = 46 thousand (46 thousand combat, XNUMX thousand NOT combat). EVERYTHING is absolutely clear and logical.
      What else would you like to "honestly" say?
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 13 January 2020 23: 45
        -4
        And what civilian planes did the union produce that would not take part in the war? And yet the Germans did not divide the downed into civilian and military. They all fought. From the ancient r-5 used as attack aircraft. U-2 are the same guenno transport and bombers. And Li-2 used to drop assault forces and even in the form of night bombers. Well, to a heap, the union riveted 39 thousand silts and in addition to them for cover more than 36 thousand yaks. 22 thousand shops and lags. 11.5 thousand pawns. 6.5 thousand il4 and so on the little things 800 tu2 and a hundred pe8 and ep2. And this is not counting all sorts of y2 and yt2 that were massively used as bombers and messengers. And now all this mass was basically lost in combat conditions.
        The question of what is considered a non-combat loss is generally interesting. For according to the recollections of the attack aircraft, the sludges were cheerfully written off after the sortie because there was no longer anything to restore. By glider wear, so to speak. Well, in 41m 42, the hero on il2 was given for 10+ sorties. And not in vain. Messer them just at that time and mowed. From the middle of 43, the main losses they had already gone from the air defense which was very powerful at Drachev in the initial period.
        P.S. on il2 arrows were in fact suicide bombers for the death of one pilot there were 3 arrows.
        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          14 January 2020 19: 13
          +3
          I don't know you very well yet. But, communicating with "experts" like you, I always ask myself: who is he? Stupid lazy dunce who does not want to delve into the REAL primary sources?
          Zombie juvenile "expert" who has read fantastic "memoirs" of German "heroes" and "honest" Western "historians" -Rusophobes?
          A foreign "compatriot" who hates Russia, Russians, posing as a liberal Russian, and trolling out of dirty tricks?
          Or an officer in the information department of a foreign intelligence agency waging an information war against Russia? .

          But it’s obvious to me that when you raise obviously NOT true questions and receive exhaustive answers to them, you FULLY ignore them, don’t comment on them at all, and pose new, no less delusional questions.

          The numbers that I brought you about the losses of the Red Army Air Force, in my opinion, are pretty accurate. MOST serious researchers call about the same, slightly different.
          22 thousand Lend-Lease - not true.
          "150 thousand aircraft lost in battle" is a fiction.
          Fiction and that all civilian aircraft fought. How can you not know that only 8,7% of the territory of the USSR was occupied, and the rest of the country (91,3%) lived a tense but peaceful life, and Aeroflot intensively transported goods and passengers, including deep rear, which the Germans did not have? And Aeroflot needed planes, especially before the end of the war!
          As for non-military losses, if the plane flew to the airfield and landed safely (and then was decommissioned) - the loss was NOT a military one. And so it was not only with the Red Army Air Force, but with all the air forces of the world (including the Germans). That is why non-combat losses reached 120% of combat losses.

          I re-read that whole mess, illiterate without punctuation marks, that you dumped me and realized: you are a foreigner. Apparently - a juvenile admirer of experts, who has read a lot of their creations and Western "honest" "historians" -Rusophobes. And you are not interesting to me ...
          1. dgonni
            dgonni 15 January 2020 11: 09
            -4
            What did Vladimir Illich say about the Decembrists? They are terribly far from the people!
            Also, you are terribly far from the topic you raised!
            For a general understanding, we would have gathered our strength and at least revered such a website corner of the sky. There, in fact for each type of aircraft, there is a complete description of both the history of creation and combat use.
            Well, on the site, I remember, it would not hurt to go in and read the memories of flyers.
            I understand that accepting the fact that the victory went with great blood is hard. But such is life!
            P.S. And yet I would recommend Galanda to read! Well, even some German pilots. Of course, it will be a big shock for you, but the eastern front for the Germans was not the main one and was considered an easy walk like a sanatorium!
            P.S. 2. By the way, translating into personalities and labeling does not color you, but it says that you have no arguments.
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              15 January 2020 15: 55
              +2
              Afterword to Jonica (I will never discuss with you again in view of the complete uselessness).
              I was VERY amused by the wishes for me to enlighten myself with a couple of sites known to the "prominent expert". And because of the "discovery" that the Eastern (and not the Eastern) front was for the Germans "an easy walk like a sanatorium" I lay under the table laughing! What exactly is this? A rout near Moscow? A boiler near Stalingrad? Defeat at the Kursk Bulge? Many other lost battles? Or all together? laughing laughing laughing
              In general, get out of the computer and quickly learn grammar and syntax! yes
              1. dgonni
                dgonni 15 January 2020 16: 44
                -3
                Such Germans considered the Eastern Front a sanatorium, due to the low level of the opposing enemy. Both in terms of technology (until 1944), and in terms of training pilots!
                You can laugh and remain in your ignorance. But the fact is the fact!
                P.S. I ento you like Alex Eustace! And then the banderlogs must have already found the correspondence!
  37. smaug78
    smaug78 12 January 2020 19: 32
    -1
    Quote: Captain45
    Quote: smaug78
    An article from the series "I really want to write something"

    An article from the series - such as you need to constantly remind who won the WWII and at what cost the victory went!

    What clearly didn’t work out for you to write ... Although people like you will swallow any bullshit and lies ...
    1. Nikolai
      Nikolai 12 January 2020 20: 23
      +2
      Give your bullshit - read.
  38. smaug78
    smaug78 12 January 2020 19: 33
    -6
    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
    Boris! Nothing is easier than writing something more significant and publishing your writings! It seems to me that most commentators are normal people and correctly rated my article and topic. Or are you just jealous?

    And your lie and your errors have already been indicated to you ...
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      12 January 2020 20: 13
      +5
      Boris, doesn't it seem VERY strange to you that out of almost two hundred who responded like you, there are only a few? That YOUR "truth" is supported by an insignificant number of "truth-lovers" about whom I wrote? Remember: in Russia you will ALWAYS be in the minority or (as it is now) within the arithmetic error!
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 12 January 2020 22: 15
        -2
        It doesn't even seem strange to me. For from the bulk of those who admired your pearls they did not even delve into the statistics and read more than the excellence of laudatory odes to our worthy air forces of the Red Army.
        Although in the darkness of publications everything that they say and write to you has been described and chewed.
        To understand that your article does not draw on analytics, read to begin with the recollections of fought pilots. At least on the site I remember.
        Well, take a look at the official statistics of the USSR. Both in production and salary at the beginning of the war, and in the supply of allies! And you will be surprised to see that the figures of your calculations clearly do not dance and are not related to reality.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 13 January 2020 02: 17
        0
        Vladimir hi , thanks for the article, I studied it with great interest. Everything is quite convincing and without any "hurray-patriotism".
        I would like someone to do a similar article on German tank aces. I understand that the "Tiger" was the "best anti-tank self-propelled gun" during the Second World War, but 150-200 enemy tanks destroyed by one crew, in my opinion, is unrealistic.
        With the submariners, such as Kretschmer and Schepke, everything seems to be clear, there the data of the sunk trading tonnage are confirmed by the Allies, but with the tanks ... Isn't that the story with the Luftwaffe? Although what Wittmann did at Ville-Bocage is certainly impressive, but ... not every day.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 04: 04
          +2
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I understand that the "Tiger" was the "best anti-tank self-propelled gun" during the Second World War, but 150 - 200 enemy tanks

          As soon as the battlefield began to remain, basically, for the Red Army, so the accounts with the panzer immediately climbed up, as well as with the backlashes, however. wink
      3. Engineer
        Engineer 13 January 2020 14: 03
        -6
        Boris, doesn’t it seem VERY strange to you that out of almost two hundred respondents like you, there are only a few?

        It’s just that you broadcast a hackneyed myth pleasant for a pseudo-patriotic layman. The myth of 2/3 aces of the dead on the Eastern Front. The myth of the hacky fixation of victories in backlash and the scrupulous in the Red Army Air Force. The myth about how the German wingmen gave the leaders their victories. All this nonsense is refuted by a simple, attentive, non-selective reading of books, including those that you indicated.
        The myth always conquers history because it is opportunistic and pleasant to the mind. That's just the truth of this does not become.
      4. smaug78
        smaug78 15 January 2020 20: 28
        0
        You have already been pointed out to your lies and delusions, but you all continue to hide behind chimeras ... Your stupid predecessors from the USSR have already spawned the traitors Suvorov, Corned beef and other nits. So you follow the slippery slope of these characters. So you will determine with whom you are with your "righteous anger" and desire to rip off the veils ...
  39. Operator
    Operator 12 January 2020 20: 21
    +3
    Data reported by WWII member countries about the combat losses of their aircraft in air battles from anti-aircraft artillery fire and bombing strikes at airfields:
    Germany 85650
    Japan 494800
    USSR 47844
    USA 41575
    Britain 15575
    Data for France, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Finland, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria are not given in the source
    https://belayaistoriya.ru/blog/43574164471/Nekotoryie-aviatsionnyie-itogi-vtoroy-Mirovoy-voynyi.?nr=1&utm_referrer=mirtesen.ru

    Non-combat losses of aircraft (technical malfunctions, depletion of a glider's life, exhaustion of maintainability of a glider as a result of hits by enemy shells, piloting errors in a non-combat situation) during WWII are estimated at 100-120% of combat.
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 12 January 2020 22: 33
      -5
      Take your numbers. Then, plus 120% officially lost in battles, we get about 100 thousand lost during the war. Where else have gone about 50-60 thousand aircraft?
      1. Operator
        Operator 13 January 2020 00: 01
        +2
        The numbers are not mine, taken from the link.

        The balance of the receipt of combat aircraft from all sources, combat and non-combat losses, and availability for certain dates requires additional analysis for all countries participating in WWII.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  40. 32363
    32363 13 January 2020 01: 32
    +1
    there is a great 1957 film about German ace of French descent Hans Joachim Marcel who fought in Africa.
    "Star of Africa"

    [media = https: //youtu.be/bcmm5ZOSaFI]
    1. 32363
      32363 13 January 2020 01: 44
      +1
      link chtoli beaten .. here is a fragment from the movie

  41. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 13 January 2020 04: 01
    +3
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The Russians almost did not participate in the WWII war. And if you participated, then not where you think.

    This is not even nonsense at all ...
  42. victor50
    victor50 13 January 2020 06: 10
    -2
    This topic will obviously never be closed. The author noted almost all the factors affecting the performance of German fighter pilots. Yes, the bills were overpriced. Consciously and erroneously. It is impossible in a battle in most cases to know whether an airplane was shot down or if it was not a fatal hit. But all the warring parties have the same picture. Well, maybe in percentage terms this overstatement is slightly different. Cannot be contemptuous of enemies. From their successes and mistakes, conclusions and experience should be drawn. It seems to me that our pilots made such conclusions, and already in Korea there was a completely different picture of air battles and victories. As for the Great Patriotic War, it seems to me that until the very last days, the organization of the actions of fighter aircraft, in the first place, suffered from us. Both from films and from books, including memoirs, it is clear that with our total (6-fold, if I am not mistaken, in the 45th) advantage in numbers, German aviation raided crossings, convoys with equipment, the train. And in the 44th, the picture was even worse. Although with such a numerical superiority, not a single German aircraft should have taken off from airfields, not a single one had to reach our troops and bomb its targets. Well, maybe exaggerating a little. Nevertheless, German aviation, although limited, acted against our troops. Maybe I'm wrong, but so I see it.
  43. EvilLion
    EvilLion 13 January 2020 08: 59
    -6
    But Soviet pilots could confirm with irrefutable evidence and documents every shot down plane!


    This is already bullshit, all WWII air forces overestimate their results 3-4 times, the Germans only lie more than others, they have an EMNIP of 6-fold overstatement.

    So who then and whom did he “fill up with corpses” and “downed planes”?


    In 1944, the Germans were no longer up to the Pokryshkins, they all had 3-4 hundreds of fighter jets on the entire eastern front, all of them sat in the Reich’s air defense and were massively killed by machine gunners on bombers and escort fighters.

    At the same time, Kozhedub and most of the famous Soviet aces have never been shot down! At the same time, Kozhedub and most of the famous Soviet aces have never been shot down! At the same time, Kozhedub and most of the famous Soviet aces have never been shot down!


    And this is just not surprising, Kozhedub was a super-good shooter and rarely got close. The Pokryshkinskaya whatnot is 8 cars, that is, a very dense and large group was formed, which was not engaged in deliberately pecking out single individuals, or other actions like "hit and run" when any mistake easily leads to a spiral flight to the ground.

    However, I do not remember something that Hartman was shot down more than 6 times.

    . But can it be called a battle what Hartman and Co. did: dived - shot - fled? Of course not. This can be called an attack, an attack. But do not fight!


    Fire on the enemy is open - it means a battle. It doesn’t matter how useful and effective the actions of single hunters were, moreover, the problem is not even in their tactics, ours periodically hunted. Free hunting is very effective in the ratio of damage to the enemy and resources expended. The problem for the Germans is that these small successes of individual shooters against the general background replaced the full-fledged work of preparing new pilots and preserving them, which Pokryshkina was able to achieve as soon as the industry was able to produce enough aircraft.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 January 2020 13: 56
      0
      However, I do not remember something that Hartman was shot down more than 6 times.

      In the preface to the second Russian edition of the book of Toliver and Constable. In a loss chronicle of JG 52, Hartman featured 2 times. An episode with a posad in Soviet territory with capture and flight and a clash with the Mustangs.
  44. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 13 January 2020 10: 39
    +5
    Quote: andr6
    And without shaving.
    And without amers.
    Without the Anglo-Saxons, in general.
    The independent Soviet-German war, which took place outside the framework of WW2 (in the USSR it was called the Second World War), ended on September 24.09.1941, 08.05.1945. On the same day, without a break, the USSR joined the Anti-Hitler Coalition on the side of the Anglo-Saxons. And 2/XNUMX/XNUMX in Europe ended XNUMXMB. It ended with the victory of the countries of the Anti-Hitler coalition. One of which was the USSR.

    1. The independent Soviet-German war never struck. Another 22 yuns on the USSR attacked Romunia, then Finland, Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia. In addition, the German Reich attacked the USSR with the annexed and occupied territories and population.
    2. Could the USSR defeat the issue of discussion without the Anglo-Saxons, but without the Soviet Union the defeat of the Anglo-Saxons was absolutely inevitable.
    3. So the anti-Hitler coalition won, the main force of which was beaten by the ground forces of the USSR. Everything else is helpers.
    1. destiny20
      destiny20 13 January 2020 19: 07
      -3
      And who fought at sea? How much is the tonnage of all German submarines? and how much is the full tonnage of tanks? call Britons and amers assistants .. well, you know the excess
  45. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 13 January 2020 10: 56
    +3
    Quote: dgonni
    production of the USSR for 1941-1945, 143 thousand aircraft of all types. Plus 20-22 thousand allied supplies.
    On June 22, the air force of the Red Army had something like 12 thousand aircraft at the end of the war, a similar number. Therefore, these indicators level each other. Discarding non-combat losses in the form of tens of thousands of aircraft. We get a spoilage of 150 thousand aircraft lost in battle.
    This is such a la vie.

    1. At the end of the war, the USSR had more than 30 thousand aircraft in the army, in force and in warehouses.
    2. USSR production of approximately 100 thousand aircraft, together with 20 thousand aircraft at the beginning of the war and 20 thousand on lend-lease produced a total of 140 thousand aircraft.
    3. Part of the Lend-Lease deliveries came after the end of the war. The old planes were written off in warehouses.
    So there is no discrepancy.
    Look at the German and American balance of aircraft. The United States produced more than 300 thousand, in the end there were 100 thousand and transferred to the allies about 50 thousand. Does their loss amount to 150 thousand?
    1. Operator
      Operator 13 January 2020 11: 08
      +4
      Air Force of the Red Army and the Red Army
      on 22.06.1941/20/100 20 + produced 50 + received on lendlise 60 - combat losses 9 - non-combat losses 1945 = as of May 30, XNUMX XNUMX thousand aircraft

      Full balance, however (accurate to thousands of units)

      At the same time, the combat losses of the air forces of the Red Army and the Red Army from the actions of the military aircraft of Germany, Finland, Hungary, Romania and other member states of the Hitler coalition amounted to only 35 thousand aircraft (70%).
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 13 January 2020 14: 52
      +2
      So even in the USSR at the end of the war most of the planes were not lost in battles, or accidents, although there was trouble with them, but was written off by wear and tear. Wooden structures have near-zero storage capability, and then an airplane is basically a motor.
  46. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 13 January 2020 11: 04
    +3
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I would like someone to do a similar article on German tank aces. I understand that the "Tiger" was the "best anti-tank self-propelled gun" during the Second World War, but 150-200 enemy tanks destroyed by one crew, in my opinion, is unrealistic.

    Here, as with airplanes, German storytellers shoot themselves in the foot. If one crew destroyed 150-200 tanks, and they had 30 thousand crews in the East, then only their tanks destroyed 6 million Soviet tanks. If we add German artillery, infantry and aviation (Rudel), then we come to the minimum figure of 10-12 millions of destroyed Soviet tanks.
    1. Schekn Irtch
      Schekn Irtch 13 January 2020 12: 40
      +1
      And here I allow myself to disagree. Wittman was really cool. Only one episode in Ville-Bocage (trash for transcription) is worth the epic. And how many of them he had. Another thing is that the crews were shuffled and the calculation of victories was subsequently carried out not according to them, but according to individual personalities, each type for itself. Again, Lavrinenko for a short time in the most mocking conditions showed RESULT, so ....
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 13 January 2020 14: 55
        +1
        There, "Cromwell" gave him a bochin, but could not break through. It's just that Wittmann isn't as tough as British armored forces are bad. Lavrinenko just had a fig of goals, like the Pz-38, which against the T-34 do not roll from the word at all.
        1. Schekn Irtch
          Schekn Irtch 13 January 2020 17: 06
          +1
          Cool is just being in the right place at the right time and being ready to use the moment correctly. In such a situation as in Wittmann's, the majority would have merged before reaching the battle, and against him were fired "desert rats" and not the 4th Notourberland. Lavrinenko was not only opposed by Chekhkarton, but by a machine that brilliantly in practice implements the interaction of all branches of the armed forces, so exaggeration is inappropriate here.
  47. Desperado
    Desperado 13 January 2020 11: 43
    +1
    But most objective researchers call the following numbers of combat losses: the Luftwaffe - 58850 aircraft and 50883 pilots, and the Red Army Air Force - 46100 aircraft and 34500 pilots (with a significant number of non-combat aircraft losses, mainly in the initial period and the first half of the war)


    Where do these numbers come from? Links to the studio.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      13 January 2020 14: 21
      +1
      I wrote that I DO NOT give links SPECIALLY, and NORMAL people themselves can freely find them (if desired). Your reception is the reception of an ordinary troll, forcing the author to fulfill his Wishlist and make excuses. laughing
  48. Engineer
    Engineer 13 January 2020 12: 03
    -6
    It was the year 2020. In addition to monographs, a lot of primary sources are posted on the network. IT technologies allow reading foreign documents without even knowing the language. But the level of people is clearly lagging behind information evolution.
    The author simply transferred the theses of Mukhin 15 years ago.
    Let me remind you that in the West, comparisons of declared and real victories have long been made on the basis of documents of both parties at least for individual aces.
    Hans-Joachim von Marseilles confirmed 65-70 percent of victories
    Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer's night ace confirmed 110-120 wins out of 150
    For comparison
    Thomas Marmaduke St. John Pattle confirmed ok 55 percent
    "Killer" Clive Caldwell 50-60 percent.
    At the beginning of the XNUMXs, attempts were made to reconcile bilaterally on the accounts of our aces. Seems Fat
    made for a relatively isolated theater-polar region. It turned out exactly the same situation - 50-65 percent of victories were confirmed.
    But the myth for national consciousness turned out to be more important. Therefore, now people broadcast nonsense like
    This is evidenced by the scattering after well-known warnings on the air: “Ahtung! Achtung! In the sky ... (and not only Pokryshkin)!

    Flying German commanders usually always appropriated and recorded for themselves all those shot down by their group, and often shot down by subordinates (by agreement with them) with a promise of further benefits and promotions.

    People hawala and ask for more.
  49. Schekn Irtch
    Schekn Irtch 13 January 2020 12: 17
    +1
    Hartmann began fighting in 1943. It is also possible to indirectly confirm their "cheating" on victories by the accounts of Japanese pilots.
  50. Operator
    Operator 13 January 2020 12: 19
    +5
    Quote: fghy
    According to data declassified in 2017 by the State Planning Committee of the USSR

    It’s not good to lie: the total loss of the population of the USSR (including the unborn relative to the pre-war growth rate) in 1941-45 amounted to
    205 - 170,5 = 34,5 million people
    1. The comment was deleted.