False Elizabeth The sad fate of the impostors

164
In the previous article (The high tragedy of "Princess Tarakanova" ) we left our heroes in Italy.

False Elizabeth The sad fate of the impostors

F. Rokotov, portrait of Alexei Orlov (between 1762-1765 gg.), Tretyakov Gallery




Alexey Orlov, whom Catherine II sent to the honorary exile - to command the Russian squadron of the Mediterranean Sea, was in the Tuscan city of Livorno, located on the shore of the Ligurian Sea.

Abandoned by the Confederates and desperately needing, the False Elizabeth was in Rome.


Anna Samokhina in the role of Princess Tarakanova, the film "Royal Hunt"


Fateful encounter


As early as September 1774, Alexei Orlov himself proposed to Catherine II a plan for the abduction of an impostor. He said that, in his opinion, the French Yard was behind her, and proposed two options:
“I would use a stone on her neck and in the water,” or, “luring her into the ships, send her directly to Kronstadt.”


In a letter from November 12 to November 1774, Catherine II ordered him to act on the second option:
"Bait her in a place where it would be clever for you to put him on our ship and send her here for the guard."


She wanted to subject the rival to the most biased interrogation.

Now Orlov was looking for a meeting with the False Elizabeth. But she, apparently, knew what kind of person he was, and therefore, in a letter sent to him in August 1774, she said that she was in Turkey and was reliably guarded. However, she did not succeed in deceiving anyone at that time, the Russians knew about her presence in Ragusa, and, in the same letter, Catherine allowed Orlov not to pay attention to the sovereignty of this small republic:
“To use threats, and if you need punishment, you can throw a few bombs into the city.”



Ragusa on the map


How cute, isn't it? Commit aggression against a small but universally recognized state. One can imagine what anti-Russian hysteria would rise in the newspapers of Europe, and what a surge of Russophobia would be provoked by such actions. But Catherine, perfectly aware of the risk, nevertheless, gives this order. And for what is all this? To arrest some adventurer? This serves as further evidence of the empress's greatest concern.

But the letter was late, the impostor had already left Ragusa, and was now in Rome. She was already sick, but now the signs of consumption (tuberculosis) were manifested more clearly. She was tormented by fever and cough, sometimes it was even difficult for her to get out of bed.


G. Serdyukov. Portrait of an unknown. The owner of this picture, P.F. Simson, claimed that it depicts Princess Tarakanova


There was no money, and False Elizabeth inadvertently wrote to the British ambassador in Naples Hamilton with a request for a "loan."


Joshua Reynolds. Portrait of Sir William Hamilton, 1777
The wife of this gentleman "became famous" as the lover of Horatio Nelson


Hamilton did not give money, and sent the letter to his colleague in Livorno - John Dick, who transferred it to Alexei Orlov. From that moment on, the impostor, who had recklessly sat down to “play politics” at the same table with the Powerful of this world, was doomed. Alexey Orlov always achieved his goal, and even Ekaterina herself was afraid of him, politely exposing her former “benefactor” outside Russia.

In January 1775, Adjutant General I. Khristinek found an impostor in Rome, telling her that Count Orlov had “living participation” in the fate of “the daughter of Empress Elizabeth.” Through the English ambassador in Rome, Jenkins paid her debts (even the debt to the Polish Confederate Radziwill had to be repaid). Despite the desperate situation, the impostor, who herself had recently turned to Orlov for help, apparently anticipating the evil, very reluctantly agreed to meet with him. Under the name of Countess Silinsky (Zelinsky), she went to Pisa, where she met with her alleged supporter - in February 1775.


Livorno and Pisa on the map


The meeting did not disappoint her: Orlov, who had previously rented a house for her in Pisa (very large - because there were 60 people in the retinue’s retinue, whose salaries were now paid from the Russian treasury), “showed every kind of arrangement, offering his services everywhere wherever she is they didn’t require them. ” He swore allegiance, promised to ascend to the Russian throne, and even offered to marry him. The adventurer was dizzy and she, perhaps for the first time in her life, could not resist the man, and maybe even fell in love with him.

The English consul who participated in the “intrigue” in Livorno, John Dick, sent Orlov a letter with false news about the clashes between the Russians and the British, and demanding an urgent return to his squadron to “restore order”. 21 February 1775 Mr. Orlov, having shown this letter to the False Elizabeth, invited her to Livorno in order to get acquainted with his squadron.


Prospect der Stadt Livorno, engraving, 1760


He persuaded her to take with him only 8 people - Domansky, Charnomsky, a maid and five valets.

Stolen


In Livorno, the False Elizaveta stopped on February 24 at the house of the English consul, who, during dinner, helped Orlov persuade her to inspect the Russian squadron.

Distract for a while. More recently, Russia took part in the Seven Years War, fighting against Prussia and its allied England on the side of France and Austria. Several years pass, and France and Austria support the Polish Confederates, and Prussia is on the side of Russia. France actively participates in the intrigues of the "emigrant government" of Poland, officials of the kingdom host the "pretender" to the Russian throne, trying to help her and the "volunteers" get to the front of the Russian-Turkish war. And the three English envoys in Italy at this time are doing their best to help Alexei Orlov - just like a native, and then a ship with a captive adventurer calmly enters Plymouth harbor, and the British authorities, well aware of everything, politely ask no questions to anyone. And again the "damned" question hangs in the air: why and why did Russia fight against the country of Prussia and England, who wanted peace with our country, and even on the side of such treacherous and hypocritical "allies"?

The squadron of Alexei Orlov met the girl with fireworks and music, the sailors joyfully greeted the "Grand Duchess", it seemed that nothing was impossible, and the most cherished dreams come true. Forgetting caution, she boarded the flagship Holy Great Martyr Isidore and drank wine in the cabin of Admiral Greig.


Central Naval Museum of St. Petersburg. Model of the 74 cannon ship "Holy Great Martyr Isidore"


In Europe, by the way, a version appeared in which Aleksey Orlov and Jose (Osip) de Ribas are represented by some incredibly cynical scoundrels and blasphemers: before the arrest, on the ship, supposedly, a clownish wedding ceremony was performed, the role of the priest on which the Spaniard performed. Of course, there was nothing like this in real life. Orlov and de Ribas, of course, were far from angels, but such a trash could be thought of only by some completely downcast clicker, and for very little money, which was enough to get sober. Unfortunately, this frank fake was joyfully picked up and replicated by our writers, here in the play of Zorin and the film staged on it in 1990, we see this scene:


Shot from the movie "Royal Hunt". Wedding on the ship


In fact, Orlov and Greig suddenly disappeared somewhere, but Captain Litvinov appeared with the guards, who announced the arrest of the impostor. Together with her were detained and members of her small retinue. The shock was too great, the adventurer left the forces: she lost consciousness and came to her senses already in the cabin, which became the first prison cell in her life. Of her people, a maid was left with her, the rest were transferred to other ships.

Often you have to read that the Russian squadron immediately departed from the coast, but it was still in Livorno for 2 days - until the papers of the False Elizabeth were delivered from Pisa. All this time, ships were surrounded by boats of local residents, who managed to keep at a distance only by the threat of use weapons. Adjutant General Khristinek was immediately sent by land to Petersburg with a report, followed by Alexei Orlov. In Venice, he met with Panet Kohanku - Karol Radzivil, which was described in a previous article. The tycoon tearfully asked Catherine to “apologize” for her connections with the Confederates and for participating in an adventure with the “princess”, and begged him to intercede before the empress.

Conscience apparently bothered Orlov: before leaving, he never found the strength to meet again with a woman who confided in him, who, as it turns out, became pregnant from him. He managed to get a letter from her pleading for help, to which he replied that he himself was under arrest, but those loyal to him would release both of them. It is believed that by giving hope, he wanted to turn her away from a suicide attempt. And, indeed, in the hope of an early release, the captive remained calm until her arrival in Plymouth. Here the girl fainted (or staged him). When she was carried out into the fresh air, she tried to jump into a boat passing by - this desperate attempt to escape failed.

Orlov’s actions, of course, violated international law, and aroused great indignation among the politicians of some countries - from among those that are now commonly called “partners”. It was especially strong in Italy and Austria. In a letter to Catherine II, Orlov wrote that “in these places (in Italy), he must be careful not to be shot or nourished from the accomplices of this villain, I am most afraid of the Jesuits, and with her some were and remained in different places” .

Of course, it can be assumed that Orlov points to the empress at the “special complexity” of her assignment and hints at the need to “be grateful”. But, it is thought that, during his journey, he really felt uncomfortable, constantly feeling hostility both of local authorities and private individuals.

To quarrel seriously with the powerful Russian empire over imposture, however, no one wanted it, Orlov safely reached St. Petersburg, the noise soon ceased.

And the pseudo-voyage of the False Elizabeth continued until 11 on May 1775, when the ship with the captive arrived in Kronstadt. On May 26 she found herself in the western (Alekseevsky) ravelin of the Peter and Paul Fortress.


Western (Alekssevsky) ravelin of the Peter and Paul Fortress


The last days of the adventurer's life


A special commission led by Prince A.M. Golitsyn, the investigation began. Catherine II did not believe that her rival acted on her own: she demanded at any cost and by any means to obtain from her recognition that "who is the boss of this comedy."

The commission found out that the name Elizabeth the impostor considers real that she is 23 years old and does not know either her birthplace or her parents. Until nine years old, she supposedly lived in Kiel, and then for some reason she was transported to Persia, where she lived for 15 months - through Livonia and Petersburg. The people accompanying her (three men and a woman) said that all this was done by the will of Emperor Peter III. She fled from Persia with some Tatar who brought her to Baghdad - to the house of the rich Persian Gamet. Then she was taken to Isfahan by the “Persian Prince Gali,” who informed the girl that she was “the daughter of Elizabeth Petrovna, and her father was called differently, who is Razumovsky and who is different.” In 1769, the “Persian Prince” was for some reason forced to flee the country. He took the girl dressed as a man outfit with him. Through St. Petersburg, Riga, Koenigsberg and Berlin, they reached London, where the patron left her, giving goodbye "precious stones, gold bullion and cash a great number." From London she moved to Paris, then to Kiel, where the local duke invited her to marry him. But at first she decided to go to Russia to find out “about her breed,” but instead she ended up in Venice, where she met Prince Radziwill.

Sometimes she changed her testimony, claiming that she was a Circassian born in the Caucasus, but brought up in Persia. She allegedly intended to acquire a strip of land along the Terek in order to settle French and German colonists on it (her fiancé — Philip de Limburg should have helped her) and even found a small border state in the Caucasus.

A young woman, who had recently played, as if with puppets, with far from stupid men, and who had become a serious factor in European politics for some time, carried some outright nonsense, and it seemed that she firmly believed in her words. It was hard to believe that this apparently not mentally healthy girl scared Ekaterina, who was so careful about her reputation abroad, that forced her to scandalously violate the sovereignty of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, which was ruled by relatives of the Austrian Habsburgs. They didn’t believe her, torturing her with long interrogations and constantly tightening her conditions of detention. Catherine demanded an answer to the main question: which of the European, or even Russian, politicians stood behind the impostor?

The “owner” of the adventurer was never found, it seems that he really wasn’t.

Meanwhile, the symptoms of tuberculosis in the captive rapidly progressed, the most alarming of them was a cough with blood. In addition, according to some reports, communication with Orlov was not in vain, and it was revealed that the impostor was in the fifth month of pregnancy. Based on the doctor’s report, it was decided to transfer it to the basement under the house of the commandant of the Peter and Paul Fortress, as a drier room.

From her cell, she wrote to Catherine, begging for a meeting, these letters remained unanswered.


One of the letters of the impostor to Catherine II


In 1860 in the newspaper "Northern Bee" was published an essay by P.I. Melnikov-Pechersky, where the testimony of a certain Vinsky was given. It was a sergeant of the Izmaylovsky Guards Regiment, who was imprisoned in Alekseyevsky ravelin for some “political” cases, and ended up in the cell of “Princess Tarakanova.” Here he saw the words "About mio Dio!" Scrawled on a window pane. A very old veteran watchman, allegedly having opened up once, told him that Count Aleksey Grigoryevich Orlov himself once visited the young lady who was here before, who she “really scolded” in a foreign language and even “stamped her feet.” the same watchman Vinsky learned that the "lady" was "brought pregnant, she gave birth here."

It should be said that not all researchers tend to trust this story. However, this situation is the rule, and not the exception: story it does not belong to the category of “exact” sciences, and many more answers are offered to more than one.

The prisoner's health deteriorated sharply in October 1775, on the 26 of this month, Golitsyn told the empress that "the doctor is despairing of her cure and says that she, of course, will not live long." However, it is believed that in November she gave birth to a living child. This was a boy whom some researchers identify with Alexander Alekseevich Chesmensky. He later served in the Life Guards Horse Regiment and died at a young age. Other historians, of course, strongly disagree with this - everything, as always.

In early December, the prisoner asked to send an Orthodox priest for a confession, which was held in German. After this, agony began, lasting two days. On December 4 this mysterious woman died, her body was buried in the courtyard of the Peter and Paul Fortress.

Members of the impostor suite brought from Livorno together with the “princess” (Domansky, Charnomsky, the maid Melschede, valets Marchezini and Anchiolli, Richter, Labensky, Kaltfinger), who could not say anything about the origin of the impostor, were sent abroad after her death. They were even given money “for the journey” (Domansky and Charnomsky for 100 rubles, Melshed for 150, the rest for 50), forbidding them to return to Russia and strongly advising them to “forget” everything.

It is interesting that after the death of Alexander I, in his personal office in the Winter Palace were discovered the “Book of the Senate's Secret Expedition” (which contained materials on the Pugachev case) and the investigation case of “Princess Tarakanova”. It would seem: figures of a completely disparate scale, but even the imposter of Catherine II, apparently, seemed no less dangerous than the famous leader of the Peasant War. Moreover, having discovered the Tarakanova case, Nicholas I, ordered D.N. Bludov, in parallel with the Decembrists case, to prepare for him a full report on the impostor. And when, in 1838, in the papers of the deceased Chairman of the State Council, N.N. Some new documents related to the False Elizabeth were discovered by Novosiltsev, followed by an order from the emperor: all papers, not familiar with the contents, should be immediately transferred to ... Bludov! And then the new emperor, Alexander II, wished to familiarize himself with the Tarakanova case. Something painfully much attention was paid to this impostor and Catherine II, and her heirs. Maybe we still don’t know everything about her?

The case of “Princess Tarakanova” was kept secret, however, some fragmentary information became known to the general public, as a result, over time, this already sad story was dramatically reinforced by the rumor about the death of an impostor during a flood in St. Petersburg - 10 September 1777 of the year. In 1864, Mr .. Konstantin Flavitsky painted the famous painting "Princess Tarakanova", which contributed to the final consolidation of this legend in the public mind.


K. Flavitsky. Princess Tarakanova


The success of Flavitsky’s painting prompted Alexander II to declassify some of the documents “cases of Princess Tarakanova” - because “the picture is false” and it is necessary “to put an end to empty talk”.

Another irritating factor for the authorities, which pushed them to greater openness, was an appeal to the readers of the editorial board of the Russian Talk magazine in 1859:
“Is Russian history condemned to lies and gaps for all the time, starting with Peter I?”



Cover of Russian Conversation magazine, 1859


As a result, V.N. Panin published two works in 1867: “A Brief History of Elizabeth Alekseevna Tarakanova” and “About the Impostor, posing as the daughter of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna.”


V.N. Panin. Engraving. 1850's


Later, “Princess Tarakanova” became the heroine of the books of P. Melnikov, G. Danilevsky, E. Radzinsky, the play by L. Zorin, on which the film “Imperial Hunt” was shot, and even musicals.


The performance of the Mossovet Theater “Imperial Hunt”, 1977
Margarita Terekhova as Princess Tarakanova and Leonid Markov as Alexey Orlov


"Princess Augusta"


A lesser-known pretender to the role of the daughter of Elizabeth Petrovna and Alexei Razumovsky is the real-life nun Dosifei, who in 1785 was placed by imperial command of Empress Catherine II in the Moscow John the Baptist Convent.


John the Baptist (Ivanovo) Women's Stauropegial Monastery, 19th-century engraving



John the Baptist (Ivanovo) Women's Stauropegial Monastery, modern photo


This monastery was founded by Elizabeth Petrovna in the 1761 year, which intended it "for the charity of widows and orphans" of noble and honored people of the empire. However, life made its own adjustments, and the monastery became not only a “nursing home”, but also a prison for “uncomfortable” persons of noble origin. It is curious that, at the same time as Dosifei, the underground cell of the John the Baptist Monastery contained the famous sadist "Daria Nikolaeva" (Daria Nikolaevna Saltykova, better known as "Saltychikha").


P.V. Kurdyumov. "Saltychikha"


Here she spent more than 30 years, from 1768 to 1801. The investigation proved the killing of her 38 serfs. But for what was the meek Dosifei buried alive in this monastery, which was ordered to be kept indefinitely in strict isolation? The only relief was the permission to purchase products without restrictions (taking into account the “fast” and “fast” days, of course) with the money allocated from the treasury to the table of this nun.

Dosifeya was placed in two small cells with a hallway not far from the abbess herself. The windows of these cells were always covered with curtains, only the abbess herself and the personal confessor of Dosifei could enter them. These cells were not preserved - they were demolished in 1860.

As often happens, the veil of secrecy aroused an unprecedented interest in the mysterious recluse: all the while, curious people gathered, hoping to see her through the gap in the curtains, at least out of the corner of her eye. Rumors circulated about the youth and the unprecedented beauty of the nun, her high origin. Only after the death of the empress did the regime of Dosifei's maintenance somewhat improve: she was not allowed to leave the cells, but visitors were more freely allowed. It is known that Metropolitan Plato was among those. A priest of the monastery claimed that some of the guests held on like nobles, and had conversations with Dositheus in some foreign language. They also recalled that on the wall of her cell hung a portrait of Empress Elizabeth.

Dosifei died after 25-year imprisonment at the age of 64 years - in 1810 year. Her funeral surprised a lot of people, since this nun was buried by the Moscow vicar - Bishop Augustine of Dmitrov. And at the burial there were many nobles of Catherine’s time, who appeared in full uniforms and at orders. The body of Dosifei was buried in the Moscow Novospassky Monastery - at the eastern fence, on the left side of the bell tower. On the gravestone was written:
“Under this stone is the body of the nun Dosipheus of the monastery of the Ivanovo Monastery, who had departed for the Lord, who labored about Christ Jesus in the monasticism of 25 years and died on February 4 of the 1810 day.”


In this monastery for quite a long time they showed the still not preserved portrait of the nun Dosifei, on the back of which one could read:
"Princess Augusta Tarakanova, in the foreign shop of Dosifey, sheared in the Moscow Ivanovo Monastery, where she died many years of her righteous life, was buried in the Novospassky Monastery."



Cenotaph chapel (symbolic grave) of nun Dosifei, Novospassky Monastery, Moscow


In 1996, during the reconstruction of the Novospassky Monastery, the remains of Dosifei were studied by the staff of the Republican Center for Forensic Medical Examination and a forensic professor, doctor of medical sciences V.N. Zvyagin. It turned out that she had a hump, which was the result of some kind of trauma suffered in childhood.

The Secret of the Nun Dosifei


But who was this captive of Catherine?

Some argue that from the marriage of Elizabeth Petrovna and Alexei Razumovsky around 1746 year, indeed, a daughter was born, named Augusta. Allegedly, she was given up for education to the beloved sister of the favorite - Vera Grigoryevna, who was married Colonel of the Little Russian Army E.F.Daragan. After the death of Elizabeth, she was allegedly sent abroad - what if the new monarch doesn’t like the “unnecessary” relative? But, on the orders of Catherine II, in 1785 the girl was brought to Russia and assigned to the familiar John the Baptist monastery.

Dosifei herself, when visitors began to more freely admit visitors, leading a third-person story, told G.I. Golovina:
"It was a long time ago. There was one girl, the daughter of very, very noble parents. She was brought up far beyond the sea, on the warm side, she received a brilliant education, lived in luxury and honor, surrounded by a large staff of servants. Once she had guests, and among them - one Russian general, very famous at that time. This general offered to ride in a boat on the seaside. Let's go with music, with songs, and when we went out to sea, a Russian ship stood ready. The general and tells her: is it not pleasant to see the device of the ship? She agreed, entered the ship, and as soon as she entered, she was taken by force to the cabin, locked and put on guard. It was in 1785 year. ”


In St. Petersburg, she was taken to Catherine II, who, speaking of the Pugachevsky revolt and the impostor Tarakanova, said: for the peace of the state, she, “in order not to become an instrument in the hands of ambitious people,” should be tonsured a nun.

You probably noticed that this story very much resembles the real story of the abduction of the False Elizabeth by Alexei Orlov. And therefore, most historians are sure that Dosifei was a moron or mentally unhealthy girl who, having heard from someone about a real impostor, came up with a similar story for herself. Apparently, she really was of special noble origin, since the empress herself took part in her business. They did not begin to exile the daughter of one of her close associates to Siberia, but, away from sin, they were forever locked in a privileged monastery, having appointed life support. The placement of the insane in a monastery was a very common practice of those years. They told acquaintances of the pious desire of one of the relatives to get away from the temptations of a sinful social life, devoting himself to serving the Lord. This was all the more convenient because in the monastery they received new names, and, as it were, were dissolved in the total mass of monastic “brothers” and “sisters”. Previous names and surnames were oblivious, and their madness did not cast a shadow on the family.

But not everyone had the means to make the necessary “contribution” to the monastery or to appoint a “pension”. And therefore, the “holy fools” of the church porches did not surprise anyone either.

Other "children" of Elizabeth and Razumovsky


One should be equally skeptical of the information that Elizabeth also had a son born from Razumovsky, who either died in one of the monasteries of Pereyaslavl-Zalessky in the beginning of the 19th century, or under the name Zakrevsky rose to the rank of Privy Councilor.

As if this were not enough, some claim that the empress's other daughter, Varvara Mironovna Nazaryeva, lived in a monastery near Nizhny Novgorod until 1839. Another alleged daughter of Elizabeth and Razumovsky allegedly lived in the Moscow Nikitsky Monastery. Legends about the “daughters of Elizabeth and Razumovsky” were also told in the convents of Arzamas, Yekaterinburg, Kostroma and Ufa. As you probably guessed, nameless noble women were considered as such, whom relatives assigned there because of their insanity.
164 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +5
    11 October 2019 18: 39
    Thank you Valery! I read your article with pleasure. But the Angles are something! Wow, * gentlemen *! Where the intrigue is there too. And I'm sorry for Tarakanov, just humanly. hi
  2. +10
    11 October 2019 19: 15
    Valery, thank you very much. Very interesting.
    Different thoughts and feelings overwhelm me.
    1) Alexey Orlov: "I would have thrust a stone around her neck and into the water" this is at least ugly.
    2) I feel sorry for this girl. Whatever she is, her fate cannot be envied.
    3) perhaps her psyche is not all right.
    4) what are the English ones: they helped her and Radziwil and, in fact, gave her to Ekaterina 2 on a "platter with a blue border".
    1. +6
      11 October 2019 19: 46
      Quote: Astra wild
      Whatever she is, her fate cannot be envied.

      "There is no destiny, except for the one that we create ourselves" (c)
      1. +3
        11 October 2019 20: 02
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Quote: Astra wild
        Whatever she is, her fate cannot be envied.

        "There is no destiny, except for the one that we create ourselves" (c)

        * The roads we choose *?
        1. +3
          11 October 2019 20: 09
          No. Terminator 2. Judgment Day
          1. +1
            11 October 2019 21: 01
            Nothing like this! "Roads of Fate" from which you will not go anywhere and, like the finale, at the end of any of them a bullet from the pistol of the Marquis de Beaupertuis.
            (Damn, I have Deja Vu, it seems like it was recently.)
            1. +1
              11 October 2019 21: 15
              Yes shazzzz!
              "The future is uncertain. There is no destiny, except for the one that we create ourselves" (c)
              Sarah Connor's voiceover. In the frame: the heroine scratches with a knife on the hood: "NO FATUM"
              1. +1
                12 October 2019 02: 30
                She wrote NO FATE
                1. 0
                  12 October 2019 02: 53
                  You are probably right.
            2. +2
              11 October 2019 21: 16
              It was. I nadis enlightened Nikolai regarding Peters and Tucker.
      2. +3
        11 October 2019 20: 36
        Anton, I don’t remember where the quote came from, but it’s not Gilyarovsky. Something I suspect of scripture
        1. +4
          11 October 2019 20: 51
          That's right, Svyatoslav. This is the gospel of Sarah Connor.
          1. +3
            11 October 2019 21: 10
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Gospel of Sarah Connor.

            * There are 215 bones in the human body, I broke only one *. From there! good
      3. 0
        12 October 2019 06: 06
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        "There is no destiny, except for the one that we create ourselves"

        Yes, I wanted more than I had and got a collapse ...
  3. +6
    11 October 2019 19: 26
    Is Russian history condemned to lies and gaps for all time, starting with Peter I?

    Well, of course, at first everything was classified, while already knowing that there were rumors, and then they pretended that nothing was happening, allowing the rumors to strengthen over the years and become a "generally accepted" version instead of what it really was. What are the claims to whom? They screwed up themselves ...
    1. +2
      11 October 2019 20: 28
      Artyom! Good evening! You can be called a specialist in Spain, can you tell me, but in Spain there were cases of imposture?
      1. +3
        11 October 2019 20: 44
        Perhaps during the time of the Visigoth state, or in the early Middle Ages, but from the New Time I do not remember anything on such a scale as ours. It was very, very difficult to become an imposter of royal blood, because, firstly, there were no such troubles, and illegitimate children, or any other, were immediately recognized, and the offspring who somehow appeared later looked at least suspicious, and secondly - in Spain, for a very long time, the law and bureaucracy reigned in these matters. Any marriage, any child, even a "leftist", was somehow documented, and even if not, then it was extremely difficult for the impostor to squeeze into a clear system of inheritance and submission to the power of the Crown.

        By the way, something related to Aragon vaguely pops up in the mind, perhaps even in the era of the reign of Ferdinand the Catholic or his father, but if something like that was there, then it did not get a big scope. Certainly not the Pugachevs, False Dmitry and Tarakanovs.
        1. +3
          11 October 2019 21: 33
          But in Portugal, the kings of Sebastian are still a spoon
          1. +3
            11 October 2019 22: 24
            The Portuguese there generally had their own atmosphere, from time immemorial. Who knows about the details of the last generations of the ruling branch of the House of Bragança and the Miguel Wars, he does not laugh at the Spaniards with their Carlists and Christians.
    2. +2
      11 October 2019 20: 39
      Also with our post-war history there is a lot of fog
      1. +4
        11 October 2019 20: 47
        And in general, we like to act according to a similar scheme, at all levels. The main thing is that if there is the slightest inconvenience to anyone, then everything is sharply classified, and then deny, thereby fueling the wildest rumors, which as a result cannot be interrupted by documents declassified after 100 years. A separate type of help in strengthening rumors is the persecution of their distributors: this only convinces people of the accuracy of the rumors. And after all, in the secret one usually doesn’t see anything so terrible when they start to publish it - but the very fact that the information is hidden under the lock causes suspicion that there is some kind of tin, and therefore the most unbridled assumptions suddenly begin to look plausible.
        1. +1
          11 October 2019 21: 19
          Artem, do not you think that this is not unique to Russia?
          1. +2
            11 October 2019 22: 14
            Of course, this happens not only in Russia. In some Asian countries, this will probably be tougher. But in European countries, as far as I know, such a long time ago is considered a big bad manners. If rumors have already begun, on the contrary, they disseminate information as widely as possible in order to interrupt these same rumors, leaving the government in the blank defense and unconsciousness for a long time in society associated with the fact that the rumors are true. And not only governments - this also applies to large enterprises, noble families, etc.
    3. +2
      11 October 2019 21: 03
      Artyom, hello! Glad to meet you. How are you and when will you please us with the new opus? drinks
      1. +2
        11 October 2019 22: 20
        Oh, I don’t know yet, in the immediate plans there was nothing of the kind. I’m in the midst of a project for .... Peter III! And I came to him, regardless of this cycle - the study was already underway during the publication of the first post of a respected author on this topic. And besides, a subproject on Russian shipbuilding, but there are so many alternative fillings that you won’t be able to highlight anything here. So for now, alas, I again went to Dusk hi
        1. +1
          11 October 2019 23: 07
          And "on Russian shipbuilding" exactly what, about what?
          1. +2
            11 October 2019 23: 13
            The development thereof under the dynamically developing Russian Empire since the end of the 18th century, squeezing real stocks + layout for enterprises in AI conditions, with adjustments for real life. Pieces of 7 or 8 articles, and for each shipyard you still need to draw the general layout of production capacities .... So far, I'm stuck in the Far East and trying to find at least some specifics about the shipyard that we planned to build in Sovetskaya Gavan. I can’t even localize it for sure - there is a huge water area, there are many kilometers of shores, depths in places, but I haven’t found where it was planned to build the enterprise ...
            1. +1
              11 October 2019 23: 18
              Yes ... you can simply drown in papers here, with our Soviet bureaucracy you will not find any ends. In any case, success to you.
        2. +2
          11 October 2019 23: 46
          Artem, is it possible to look at your shipbuilding alt projects somewhere?
          1. +2
            11 October 2019 23: 49
            Yes, now I’ll throw off the link in PM.
            1. +2
              11 October 2019 23: 50
              Thank you, I will look with pleasure.
            2. +2
              12 October 2019 00: 00
              Quote: arturpraetor
              Yes, now I’ll throw off the link in PM.

              What about me ???? crying
              1. +2
                12 October 2019 00: 04
                Then send me your e-mail in PM, otherwise the topwar messenger will break the links, then you’ll wash them to restore them in a virgin state.
                1. +2
                  12 October 2019 00: 14
                  Not a question, although we have already exchanged the boxes, it seems
                  1. +2
                    12 October 2019 00: 16
                    Sorry, still exchanged, I just forgot to write it down separately feel Now I will send links.
                    1. +2
                      12 October 2019 00: 20
                      Thank you! hi
        3. +2
          11 October 2019 23: 58
          Quote: arturpraetor
          And besides, a subproject on Russian shipbuilding, but there are so many alternative fillings that you won’t be able to highlight anything here

          Knowing the quality of your AI, and the low grade of some materials on the site, I would go for a similar provocation. laughing
          1. +3
            12 October 2019 00: 02
            Moderators, I'm afraid, will not miss laughing In general, I have already done some sort of analysis on the shipyards - true, in Spanish. Both real and AI were considered there, and separately. But in our country there are so many shipyards that I spat on this business, and almost completely "cut out" the real from the project, otherwise the volume turned out to be completely indecent. Therefore, there are horns and legs left from the real, and articles will not be allowed here under any sauce, you can be sure of this.
            1. +3
              12 October 2019 00: 17
              Quote: arturpraetor
              Moderators, I'm afraid, will not miss

              I beg you, don’t make me funny!
              1. +3
                12 October 2019 00: 30
                Already done laughing In any case, I’m simply too lazy to rewrite the articles under Topvar, given that without large river shipyards (I haven’t reached them yet), I already have 47 enterprises under consideration, and in addition to the schemes, I also need to write some text . It's a little ... Tiring wassat
            2. +3
              12 October 2019 00: 29
              I am now redoing my long-standing opus into articles, and it is tempting to insert something about the Great Holy Slavonic Mission and the treacherous Masters of the West. And after all a ride !!!
              1. +3
                12 October 2019 00: 32
                Don't forget about Hyperborea bully
                1. +3
                  12 October 2019 01: 23
                  Alas, the era is different request
          2. +4
            14 October 2019 13: 25
            I would go on a similar provocation.

            I will offer you an alternative option! wink drinks
            The English consul who participated in the "intrigue" in Livorno

            Livorno has one noteworthy case. Yes In this city in the second half of the 1780s, Russian General Zaborovsky recruited Christian volunteers to join us in the army for the war against the Turks. And once a short young French officer appeared to him. Asked for service. soldier Yes, it’s bad luck - shortly before that, Catherine’s order came to Zaborovsky to take foreigners into the Russian army .. with a decrease in rank! stop when the general voiced this to the officer, whose French language was strongly accented, he became nervous, waved his hands, and, finally crying out something like: "I will then go to the service of the Austrians, and Caesar will immediately give me the rank of captain!", ran out of the office, slamming the door ... angry Zaborovsky did not attach much importance to the case. Well, some guy came in with a very high self-esteem, well, he made a noise, that’s why .. request And the officer’s name was Napoleon Bonaparte! hi
            So here. The situation of alt-history. winked Catherine made an amendment to the order. Take down all foreigners, with the exception of those who are knocking on the Zaborovsky commission. Or didn’t issue an order at all. stop What will happen next? wink drinks
  4. +4
    11 October 2019 19: 48
    Respect to the author, I read it with pleasure, it is necessary to refresh memory not only with crosswords.
  5. +4
    11 October 2019 19: 52
    Thank you, Valery!
    The scale of the operation is amazing. Otto Skorzeny writhes from envy of Alexei Orlov.
    1. +4
      11 October 2019 20: 00
      * Skorzeny, Skorzeny. The First Reich saboteur! *. Ha! Vestimo, our Orlov is cooler, what special operation has muddied up. And if he had connected the brothers? My respect Anton!
      1. +5
        11 October 2019 20: 05
        Mutually, Sergey! hi As for:
        Quote: Phil77
        And I'm sorry for Tarakanov, just humanly

        Perhaps your life did not bring you together with such women. I had enough on the most "do not spoil".
        1. +5
          11 October 2019 20: 15
          I don’t argue, personal experience is a sacred thing! I feel sorry for her because she used the woman for selfish purposes * gentlemen * and gave for reprisal, because everything went wrong according to plan. Well and certainly a considerable factor to the question of pity: What actresses played her role! Gorgeous Terekhova! Charming Samokhina! Well, I am sorry for this young lady, that’s a pity and that’s it! Old dunce romantic (this is me about myself).
          1. +5
            11 October 2019 20: 26
            When a person starts to play games that have a ducal title as a bargaining chip, pink snot, tears and cries of "well, I'm a girl," invariably turn out to be "below the baseboard."
            1. +4
              11 October 2019 20: 39
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              "well, I'm a girl"

              Anton, Anton! Yes, you really are a TANK! laughing She is * a sweet and reverent creature *! Well, sinful, I wanted to measure the crown, but what if ???
              1. +5
                11 October 2019 20: 49
                Ага.
                "The crown turned out to be too big. As the heroine did not try to fix the case" pushup ", the treacherous metal, all one, slipped to the hips and turned into a" chastity belt. "
                Improvisation
            2. +4
              11 October 2019 21: 09
              Who is trying to try on a crown, someone is a jester's cap request
              1. +5
                11 October 2019 21: 22
                "Dare I ask, laugh at me
                If it helps you.
                Yes, I seem to be a jester, but in my soul is a king,
                And no one like me can! " tongue laughing
            3. +5
              11 October 2019 21: 57
              Anton, oh you and the cynic. Usually I don’t like cynics, it’s sin-romantic, but somehow I’m not offended by your cynicism. You’ve rudely, but correctly said
              1. +4
                11 October 2019 22: 13
                Good evening, Beautiful Stranger! I am a cynic, a jester, a marginal, et cetera. But my rudeness and cynicism never goes into vulgarity. hi
                1. +2
                  11 October 2019 23: 11
                  Andrey, you are not a jester. You are a man and a tank, and an invincible admiral in Toga! hi
                  1. +3
                    11 October 2019 23: 25
                    Che, having relapsed again? Will you start to impose Mikasu on me? am laughing
                    1. +2
                      11 October 2019 23: 27
                      No, "Mikasa" is now a museum, but it is too early for you to become an eternal joke, it will become boring and people will not understand.
                      1. +3
                        11 October 2019 23: 30
                        Well, thank God, otherwise I started to figure out how much the port fee will cost.
                      2. +2
                        11 October 2019 23: 33
                        "The fees were short-lived,
                        from the Urals to the Volga
                        we collected horses for the campaign! "
                        (S. I can not vouch for accuracy).
                      3. +3
                        11 October 2019 23: 38
                        Yes, yes, With the world on a string, bare - a rope.
                      4. +1
                        12 October 2019 00: 01
                        More precisely a bridle for a mare. And "to whom the mare is the bride," as the janitor Tikhon said.
                  2. +4
                    14 October 2019 15: 13
                    You are a man and a tank, and an invincible admiral in Toga!

                    Armored cavalry admiral? wink good eeeh .. and I would give him a saber, but the armored hussar armor .. fellow
                    1. +3
                      14 October 2019 15: 45
                      "I would use a katana, a horse, and a line of fire,
                      And seppuku on the tatami, it's not about me. "
                      (Trilobite Master)
                    2. 0
                      14 October 2019 16: 52
                      The staff members have armored cavalry generals (Patton), so why not the admiral wear such an honorary title. By the way, now, in many fleets, sailors are dressed in infantry khaki and, moreover, in camouflage. laughing
                      1. +3
                        14 October 2019 16: 59
                        The staff members have armored cavalry generals (Patton), so why not the admiral wear such an honorary title.

                        Konstantin, here's another example: the armored vehicles of the British during the First World War belonged to their Admiralty. That is, the fleet. Ranks were also naval. soldier
                      2. 0
                        14 October 2019 17: 28
                        Well, yes, the first tank was also "invented" by the First Lord of the Admiralty Churchill, so he seems to be the "godfather" of our Anton, Man and Tank. smile
                2. +4
                  12 October 2019 20: 07
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Good evening, Beautiful Stranger! I am a cynic, a jester, a marginal, et cetera. But my rudeness and cynicism never goes into vulgarity. hi

                  For this I appreciate you, and also for your well-read.
                  Honestly, if your cynicism were on the verge of obscenity, I would forget your well-read.
                  1. +2
                    12 October 2019 20: 56
                    Tough but honest. I respect hi
                    1. +4
                      14 October 2019 15: 19
                      But my rudeness and cynicism never goes into vulgarity.

                      yeah, and I .. and I .. recourse and I am a philosopher and a romantic, and generally a kind person, but for some reason all my mental efforts about the beautiful just go into this vulgarity ...request drinks
                      1. +2
                        14 October 2019 15: 41
                        It's nothing, it goes away. With age. As Immanuel Kant used to say when impotence overtook him: "Well, finally, you can calmly engage in philosophy!" laughing
                      2. +4
                        14 October 2019 15: 45
                        at the time of Kant they simply could not treat it, forgive me for cynicism ... feel and now look at the Italian grandfather, who, when he was prime minister of Italy, was famous mainly for his love affairs. wink
                      3. +2
                        14 October 2019 15: 53
                        It’s like that joke.
                        "Well, so you tell me!"
                      4. +4
                        14 October 2019 16: 00
                        It’s like that joke.

                        About Pan Kokhanka and so everything was told in the last series laughing there is a whole life - like a jokedrinks I must match my own nickname! request laughing
                      5. +2
                        14 October 2019 16: 06
                        Mdaaaa! Realized his inferiority. request I don't know what I need to do to match. Become a Warcraft hero? recourse
                      6. +4
                        14 October 2019 16: 11
                        Become a Warcraft hero?

                        Nope stop Marshal Jim Raynor had the greatest "kind cynicism" out of the entire Blizzard universe! wink he didn’t have a tank, but he had an armored motorcycle! drinks
                      7. +2
                        14 October 2019 16: 25
                        Nooo, I have a "booth" more "Ryazan".
                      8. +3
                        14 October 2019 16: 30
                        Nooo, I have a "booth" more "Ryazan".

                        we are not Alena Delona. Well, of course, except for Alain Delon himself! wink and each has its own characteristics, its advantages, and its shortcomings drinks
                      9. +1
                        14 October 2019 17: 43
                        And you can't drink "Triple" cologne! laughing
                      10. 0
                        14 October 2019 16: 48
                        In-in, let us near Ryazan, I do not promise an armored motorcycle, but we will definitely find something that will not kill.
                      11. +1
                        14 October 2019 17: 46
                        "To the village, to my aunt, to the wilderness, to Saratov" ????
                        I will never leave!
                        Let the rent high,
                        Burn, burn, my star!
                      12. +1
                        14 October 2019 17: 49
                        But, intrigued! What is being offered?
                      13. +1
                        14 October 2019 17: 52
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        But, intrigued! What is being offered?

                        In the 90 years we drank cucumber pickle. wink Green one.
                      14. 0
                        14 October 2019 18: 02
                        What we just did not drink in our youth!
                        For me, the lowest bar was the "Coniferous" tooth elixir /
                      15. +1
                        14 October 2019 18: 09
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        tooth elixir "Coniferous" /

                        I don’t remember that. Well, they drank brakes, they drank alcohol there with a compote ... And I remember vodka, Zhirinovsky was called. wink
                      16. +1
                        14 October 2019 19: 38
                        This is in the army.
                      17. 0
                        14 October 2019 21: 59
                        The local difference affects. Spirit "Royal" remember?
                      18. +1
                        14 October 2019 22: 07
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Spirit "Royal" remember?

                        But what about. In the year 94 I bought a leather jacket and 15 people got drunk. I bought two Royal bubbles, a bottle of Russian, a two-liter bottle of wine, and an Amaretto bubble. Everyone in the zyuzyu ate. laughing
                      19. 0
                        14 October 2019 22: 16
                        Brother !!! I apologize, Vladimir, so, it escaped from memory. laughing
                      20. +1
                        14 October 2019 22: 20
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Brother !!!

                        Not ... I'm a humble person .... I'm not a brother. Even when my comrades, militiamen, used heroin to inject drugs at home, I used vodka ... wink
                      21. 0
                        14 October 2019 22: 44
                        I apologize again, the joke did not come in. He himself pulled one such "militiaman comrade" out of an overdose.
                      22. +1
                        14 October 2019 22: 47
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        He himself pulled one such "militiaman comrade" out of an overdose.

                        Ah ... When the guys from Chechnya came, they went to the board drunk.
                      23. +1
                        14 October 2019 23: 10
                        Vladimir, let's not talk about Chechnya. You are welcome. In my personal cemetery, seven graves.
                      24. -1
                        14 October 2019 19: 19
                        I wanted to upload a picture for clarity, so the window doesn’t open at all, and without it it makes no sense. Maybe later it will pass.
                      25. +1
                        14 October 2019 19: 22
                        Something like that ... sort of ... but with barbecue and under vodka. soldier

                      26. +1
                        14 October 2019 19: 43
                        3x3zsave, Sea Cat, Mordvin 3
                        ,,, for what reason sabantuy? drinks
                      27. 0
                        14 October 2019 19: 46
                        Who cares? As the saying goes: You, my friend, do not rebel - it’s better to go to Sabantui. drinks
                      28. +2
                        14 October 2019 19: 58
                        Regarding my non-churching in tank troops and others like him.
                      29. The comment was deleted.
                      30. +1
                        14 October 2019 22: 32
                        There would be vodka, and we will always find a reason. wink In memory of Willy Tokarev.
          2. +3
            11 October 2019 21: 52
            Sergey, I tell you +: the girl is most sorry. Another thing is that she got into a meat grinder because of vanity and children's naivety
            1. +2
              11 October 2019 23: 15
              Amiable Astra love What "childish naivety" you are talking about, but there is nowhere to put samples on this professional student! Naivety ... Read again what Valery wrote, the first part. hi
          3. +3
            11 October 2019 21: 53
            Quote: Phil77
            Gorgeous Terekhova! Charming Samokhina!

            You should see Boyarskaya on the stage. No worse! good
        2. +4
          11 October 2019 20: 19
          Is something of our friends not visible and not heard?
          1. +5
            11 October 2019 20: 29
            So, "I'm bored, devil!" Friday evening, who goes where ...
            1. +6
              11 October 2019 20: 34
              Yes, Friday, and tomorrow morning I will go back to the factory! In general, for me the most favorite form of relaxation: a sofa, a book and a cute fluffy, tailed friend of Filka (Russian yard breed) are at hand! Neither give nor take Oblomov! laughing fellow
            2. +5
              11 October 2019 20: 46
              Robinson rejoiced on Friday even before it became mainstream. laughing
              3x3zsave
              Today, 21
              Phil77
              Today, 21
              hi
              1. +6
                11 October 2019 20: 48
                Thanks to the author of the article good
              2. +3
                11 October 2019 20: 59
                So Sergey arrived! Good evening! hi
              3. +3
                11 October 2019 21: 05
                Well, it's hard to say why he rejoiced on Friday, until Friday he only had a goat. And only after 400 years did it become mainstream.
                This is the question of the centuries-old treachery of the British. laughing
            3. +1
              11 October 2019 21: 16
              Nowhere, I am at home, with my cat and computer. drinks
    2. +1
      11 October 2019 21: 13
      Skorzeny is only a lieutenant colonel, if he translates his SS rank into universal language, where he does not care about the commander of the whole squadron and the empress’s lover (although he is an ex, but who knows ...).
      1. +1
        11 October 2019 21: 18
        Hello to you, Konstantin! So you’ve also escaped from the Eastern Front, stripped man! A steamed fruit.
        1. 0
          11 October 2019 21: 24
          Yes, he did not flee, do not believe the Bolshevik propaganda. laughing In our frosts, gall bladder inflammation started and was sent to the hospital, where he was found by an old friend and duelist at the University of Vienna Kaltenbrunner. By the way, from cancer of this bladder Skorzeny subsequently died.
          1. +2
            11 October 2019 21: 35
            ,,, so what outstanding did he do? Nothing! No. ,, well, only recourse Mussolini freed ,,, from Italians wassat
            1. +1
              11 October 2019 21: 38
              In fact, he was not even a 5 wheel in a cart). You should not confuse PR (in which he was a master) with real affairs in which he was a dummy
              1. +1
                11 October 2019 21: 50
                And yet we did not mention Pavel Sudoplatov! Here Skorzeny does not compare with him at all. The developer of special operations from God.
                1. 0
                  11 October 2019 22: 00
                  Well, you remembered and did the right thing. The whole mistake under the Soviets was that they secreted something that did not need to be secreted, and the losers of the war at that time were making advertisements for themselves. But she, too, does not arise from scratch.
                2. +2
                  11 October 2019 22: 00
                  Sudoplatov has a different size.
                  1. +2
                    11 October 2019 22: 09
                    Can I find out the most outstanding operations of Sudoplatov?
                    1. +3
                      11 October 2019 22: 19
                      That's just the point, dear Town Hall. I said, "size", that is, the level is different.
                      1. +1
                        11 October 2019 22: 22
                        Sudoplatov "became famous" for the murders of the "opposition" and simply "enemies of the people" I doubt that this is a sufficient reason to consider him an outstanding intelligence officer, etc. in the normal sense of the word. I would have killed Hitler there, I would agree that the great. Killing Trotsky is not a great thing from a technical point of view vision
                      2. +3
                        11 October 2019 22: 49
                        I don’t know who minded you, I am categorically against unreasonable minuses.
                        I consider Sudoplatov one of the outstanding leaders of Soviet sabotage and intelligence activities. All that he can be blamed for is the disgusting preparation of the DRG at the end of 41.
                      3. +1
                        11 October 2019 22: 58
                        I am superficially familiar with his activities, which is why I asked you about his operations. Maybe there were other serious cases, confirmed by documents, and not just his memoirs. Skorzeny also got into the great saboteurs with his memoirs). From what I read about Sudoplatov - a high-ranking executioner of "enemies of the people" in the country and abroad. I think this is not a sufficient reason for joining the ranks of the Great. If you are familiar with his other successes, I will read with pleasure
                      4. +3
                        11 October 2019 23: 09
                        Sorry, but I also read only Sudoplatov’s memoirs; I don’t want to quote Vicki.
                      5. 0
                        14 October 2019 22: 37
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        From what I read about Sudoplatov, a high-ranking executioner of "enemies of the people" in the country and abroad.

                        Not true. Sudoplatov was a partisan. Rail war.
                      6. +3
                        12 October 2019 19: 50
                        Town Hall, you mixed up: Sudoplatov killed the leader of the Ukrainian nationalists Konovalov, and Trotsky was killed by R. Mercader, a Spanish communist, on TV there was a doc film about him.
                    2. +2
                      12 October 2019 05: 25
                      Operations * Monastery *, * Berezino *, management of the activities of sabotage groups in the rear of the Germans, Nikolai Kuznetsov was under his command, by the way, he was responsible for the work of atomic bomb analysts. Is this not enough?
                      1. 0
                        14 October 2019 22: 39
                        Quote: Phil77
                        Nikolai Kuznetsov was under his command,

                        Nikolai Kuznetsov was under the leadership of Medvedev. hi
                  2. +2
                    11 October 2019 22: 36
                    3x3zsave
                    Today,

                    ,,, my relative was ,, the kingdom of heaven ,,, during the war, captain ,, SMERSH ,,. So he didn’t tell anyone at the end of 80x either.
                    There are now sites, a feat of the people, there he is in the awards, but what for which, the same data is closed.
                    And then Sudoplatov.
                    1. +3
                      11 October 2019 22: 53
                      Yeah. My grandfather's cousin in special communications went through the whole war, what is now called the Feldeger Service, the Red Star, also did not say anything.
                      1. +2
                        11 October 2019 23: 30
                        Same. Cousin uncle SMERSH liaison officer. Only once I was able to get it and he told the story of how the bunker of the "forest brothers" was found under a suburban highway in Lithuania. And everything, then silence, "I told you everything I remembered."
            2. +2
              11 October 2019 21: 39
              The Ardennes and the "brigade 150" (or 130, sclerosis). True, the entire German offensive was initially doomed. And one more thing by the past Read Julius Madera. The Germans, too, did not keep fools and cowards in such posts.
              1. +2
                11 October 2019 21: 53
                I repeat: A steamed fruit + two-meter charisma with a scar on her cheek.
              2. +2
                11 October 2019 21: 54
                Quote: Sea Cat
                The Ardennes and the "brigade 150"

                Which ended in an epic fiasco. Speak up the style)
                1. 0
                  11 October 2019 21: 57
                  No need to repeat my words:
                  The Ardennes and the "brigade 150" (or 130, sclerosis). True, the entire German offensive was initially doomed.

                  Everything has already been said before your appearance.
                  1. +2
                    11 October 2019 21: 59
                    An epic fiasco is about Skorzeny's "ingenious plan". Like the kidnapping of Stalin / Roosevelt / Churchill in Tehran and other similar nonsense. Treasury cutter and not special.
                    1. 0
                      11 October 2019 22: 02
                      Ours simply defeated the Germans with Tehran, now this is no secret to anyone.
      2. +4
        11 October 2019 21: 25
        Starinov, I remember, was also just a lieutenant colonel.
      3. +2
        11 October 2019 21: 27
        and, yes, Grigory Orlov was a lover.
        1. +1
          11 October 2019 21: 34
          Otpad! With tongue removed! laughing
          Starinov began to work on this "profile" much earlier than Skorzeny, therefore he had more experience, and he was smarter. And Skorzeny got into SD only in 42, which is why, probably, ours bought him with a lime tree during Operation Berezino. ...
  6. +5
    11 October 2019 20: 52
    Comrades, I have just read both stories and I think: I Radzevil had a good idea when I wanted to put it up for a meeting with the Russian army. Of course this is nonsense, but why not fantasize. How great were the chances, "Princess of Volodimerskaya", that the army would support her? Doubt all, but some parts could recognize it
    1. +2
      11 October 2019 20: 58
      Yeah! And if she was also called the Constitution, remember the episode from the movie * Star of captivating happiness *? Well, the guard would definitely go after her! laughing wink
      1. +3
        11 October 2019 21: 24
        I remember the film, in my opinion it fairly truthfully shows those events
  7. +2
    11 October 2019 21: 04
    I am just her Majesty Catherine interested in: who is the puppeteer? How did it happen that she decided to "exclaim the name" of the Russian princess
  8. +1
    11 October 2019 21: 39
    "in order to arrest some adventurer" Valeriy, she posed a serious threat to the stability of the whole empire. You yourself told how Radziwil wanted to use it and only chance prevented it. And where is the guarantee that London or Paris did not decide to use it as a card again?
    Somewhere there was information that Tarakanova had passed the diamond to Pugachev through the Turkish sultan. Known as the "Emelkin Stone". It seems that the site had information that Pugachev had connections with the British, supposedly some kind of English representative? And "Princess Tarakanov" at that time was a "trump card" and great for "well-wishers"
    1. +3
      11 October 2019 23: 00
      Quote: vladcub
      And "Princess Tarakanov" at that time was a "trump card" and a great

      It would be great, the British would never give it up. Of the high-ranking nobles of the politician level, only Pane Kohanku tried to bet on her. Well, who was this odious nobleman Valery with Nikolai explained to us in a previous article. smile
      No, she did not pose a serious threat. However, this is probably due to the fact that she was not allowed to turn around very much, having stopped her creeps in the bud. If Catherine was less vigilant, perhaps something could happen for Tarakanova. Although, in the same place, tuberculosis was ...
      And why guess what would happen if ... It didn’t happen, well, thanks to Ekaterina and Orlov. They noticed and eliminated the threat in time. Well done. smile
      1. +2
        11 October 2019 23: 20
        It remains to understand why Catherine so landed in treason?
        1. +2
          11 October 2019 23: 30
          She had such a profession ... smile
          Those who did not land on her ended their reign quickly and often under mysterious circumstances. However, the general felling of goals also did not always save.
          The higher a person occupies the post, the more people who want to move him from there. Each ruler needs his own Skuratov or Beria - the duration of the board depends on this substantially. smile
          1. +4
            11 October 2019 23: 34
            "- Aleksashka, my pipe is gone ...
            Senators in torture!
            After a couple of hours
            - Alexashka, there was a pipe!
            - It's too late, minhertz, - they confessed.
            1. +2
              11 October 2019 23: 44
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              “Late, Minkherz,” admitted.

              Anyone interrogated with partiality - there will be something to confess. So it was, so it is and it will be so at all times and everywhere. "There is no punishment without guilt." Maybe the senators did not steal the pipe, but they were definitely sent to the rack. I would only know for what ... smile
              1. +2
                11 October 2019 23: 47
                There would be a man - but there is an article " request
                1. +2
                  12 October 2019 00: 03
                  If punished, then it’s to blame. It may not be what he was punished for, but these are costs. smile
                2. +1
                  12 October 2019 22: 20
                  Interrogate anyone with an addiction - there will be something to confess to

                  ,,, the main thing is the result, namely, you will tell everything, or you will die in screams, but in a sense, silently; but you only understand that I cannot allow this in any way. I won’t let you die. I’ll sit here for a day or three, if necessary, but I will leave intact what I need to breathe, think and say; and any baby knows how many different ways this can be done in the inquisitor’s arsenal ... My bosses are not here, and that’s why I love working away so much - I am free to act and I don’t need to write any requests so I can copy you onto half-warm coals of day two ,,,
                  1. +2
                    12 October 2019 22: 46
                    ... Ma'am my witches are not ambitious and not greedy. They need neither money nor power; they do not feel hunger or lust. They do not understand what is good and what is called evil - they are innocent. They destroy us with their mere existence ... "(c)
      2. +2
        12 October 2019 15: 05
        Michael, I agree with you that Catherine reacted in time, and she could well mature like a boil. Although if you look from the other side, then only Napoleonic plans to build with consumption
  9. +7
    11 October 2019 21: 44
    Greetings, colleagues.
    "Firstыx lines of the letter "I would like to thank the author. Fascinating and interesting. smile
    By the way, no one ever disputed the fact that Catherine II had no rights to the Russian throne and, by virtue of this, she was suspicious and cautious to the outrage. Perhaps, and even for sure, that is why she managed to rule for so long and successfully.
    By impostor. You can twist men around as much as you like, jumping from bed to bed and pumping money and other benefits out of miserable voluptuous people. You can even make a girl out of yourself or play a romantic nature, living with pure and disinterested feelings. Whoever believes is his problem.
    But when you invade politics, counting on partners in the political process to have some kind of tender or sentimental feelings for you is the height of naivety.
    In short:
    No one is sorry, no one
    Neither you nor me nor him

    For what I fought for it and ran.
    1. +1
      11 October 2019 22: 05
      Michael hi !!!
      And I mean the same thing.
  10. +2
    11 October 2019 21: 54
    Valery, thanks and deepest bow for the excellent work! good hi
    I found such an engraving here, I’m not sure what exactly about it, but it’s very similar in mood:
  11. 0
    11 October 2019 22: 08
    Have you noticed too? Under the kings, the Russians were completely free in the Mediterranean. And under the general secretaries the sea immediately closed. Only autonomies, only secretly from the almighty fleet of NATO on forgotten banks to refuel.
    1. +4
      11 October 2019 22: 50
      Quote: Basarev
      Have you noticed too? Under the kings

      Noticed, noticed. Under which only kings should be clarified. The kings before the fig were different. So under what did the Russian fleet operate freely in the Mediterranean Sea? Alexandrah? Nikolai?
      1. 0
        12 October 2019 15: 12
        Under Alexander 1 and 3, and the gap between them was so on so
  12. 0
    17 October 2019 12: 13
    As always, beyond praise
  13. 0
    20 November 2019 18: 48
    All these lies of Elizabeth remind me of the classics of Ilf-Petrov, children of Lieutenant Schmidt.