1914. Entente Blitzkrieg

43

Hypothetical situation: East Prussian operation is successful


As shown in previous sectionThe defeat of the Northwest Front was not predetermined. Moreover, initially the chances of the Russian army were higher. Consider a hypothetical situation in which the East Prussian operation ended in success.

1914. Entente Blitzkrieg




What is success for Russia? The minimum program is the siege of Konigsberg and the occupation of the territory to the Vistula. The maximum is an attack on Berlin.

Such an event could take place in two scenarios:

1. General Pritwitz immediately withdraws the field forces beyond the Vistula, returning the garrison to Koenigsberg and possibly reinforcing it with the landver brigades.

2. Hindenburg does the same if it fails to defeat Samsonov or if Renenkampf manages to advance towards the 2 Army, threatening to take the 8 German Army in ticks.

But if you understand it well, it doesn’t matter which scenario will be chosen. In both the first and second cases, the balance of forces will change little, if at all.

The result will be a siege, blown up bridges, powerful German fortresses making the crossing of the Vistula almost hopeless and rare troops on both banks in order to prevent each other if someone decides to build a pontoon crossing for an unexpected sortie.

This means the transfer of the next phase of hostilities to the south from the German Thorn to the Russian Lodz.

To simulate the course of the battle is an unproductive task. But on the other hand, it is possible to predict a possible outcome based on the results of the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation with great reliability.

The main question: what kind of forces will the parties have in the Warsaw area? It is clear that in this case the battle will take place with a different sign. Russian troops will advance, German defenses.

What is a Konigsberg blockade? How big is this event?

The main fortress position was a belt of 12 large forts, 3 small and 24 infantry and artillery shelters. The position is 5 km away from the outskirts of the city, has a diameter of up to 13 km, and a general contour of about 40 km. The distance between large forts depending on local conditions is within 2 - 4 km. In terms of size, quantity and quality of fortifications, Konigsberg is similar to the Austrian Przemysl. In addition, during the war, the fortress was supplemented by a line of field fortifications along the banks of the Pregel and Deyma rivers, and from the sea side it could be supported fleet.

Under Przemysl, blocking forces totaled up to 280 thousand people, although the second-level army of General Selivanov, numbering 70-80 thousand people, was directly engaged in the siege. The siege lasted 6 months, and the fortress was taken after the 3 assault. In fairness, it should be said that the Austrians repeatedly made attempts to unlock, diverting the besieging army.



What forces would have been left at Koenigsberg? I would venture to suggest that it would be the 2th Samsonov’s army, since only it had three divisions of heavy artillery — the 36 guns. But the cavalry, numerous and useless in the siege, was part of the 1 Army.

Based on this, it is worth considering the forces of the parties for the Lodz offensive operation.

Throw west


Can the Germans transfer additional reserves from the Western Front, in addition to the well-known two corps and the cavalry division? Theoretically, yes. But in this case, it would be necessary to finally bury the plans for the capture of Paris and the withdrawal of France from the war. And on 05 of September the battle on the Marne began. If they start shooting, then the Miracle on the Marne will be much more wonderful than in the real stories. If the plans are violated, the Germans tend to panic. But not to the same extent.

In real history, by September 15 in September there was a German 9 army (135 600 bayonets, 10 400 sabers, 956 guns, including the garrison of the Thorn fortress) and the Austrian 1 army (155 000 bayonets, 10 000) in front of Warsaw. Total 666 thousand bayonets and sabers.

They were opposed by 2,4,5 and 9 armies - 470 000 infantry, 50 000 cavalry. Total 520 000 bayonets and sabers.

Moreover, part of the 9 of the German army was made up of corps from the composition of 8, namely 17 and 20. That is, in the case of the abandonment of East Prussia, the remnants of the 8 army should be added to the German forces. But not all, since Pritz (or Hindenburg) will be forced to leave the land divisions in the Fortress and on the banks of the Vistula. I will assume that Pritvits will add 2 army corps (1 and 1 reserve).

However, in the considered version of the offensive, the Axis will not be. Therefore, from further calculations it will be quite correct to remove the 1 Austrian army, as well as the Russian 9 army opposing it and the 2 infantry divisions of the Warsaw fortified area. That is, about 200 of thousands of bayonets and sabers will confront the Russian offensive. And if the Austrians try to help the allies, then due to a gap of one and a half hundred kilometers, this will be an independent battle.

In an attack on Germany could participate:

- 1 A, reinforced by the 2 AK, the 2 Siberian Corps, the 79 and 50 Infantry Divisions, the 1 Cavalry Corps, the Caucasian, Guards and Cossack Divisions, which in real history were part of the 2 Army in the Warsaw area. That is, we can conditionally accept that 1A would be equal in strength to the September 2A from real history;

- 4 and 5 armies from real history.

But in the situation under consideration, Russia has an ace up its sleeve called the 10 Army. What is the 10 army? These are the 11 infantry and 2 cavalry divisions. Approximately 130 000 bayonets and sabers.

Together, this gives up to 460 000 bayonets and sabers from Russia.

In real history, the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation had a balance of forces 1,6 to 1 (520 to 311) in favor of Russia. In our case, there will be 2,3 to 1 (460 to 200).

If we assume that the 8 army went out with battles, the number of troops on both sides will decrease slightly, but the ratio of 2,3 to 1 will remain, because during direct clashes the Russians and Germans suffered equal losses. Therefore, to calculate the balance of forces, the way the 8 army came out, with or without battles, does not matter.

The Warsaw-Ivangorod operation had the following result:

Russia. Number 520 thousand Losses 110 thousand, or 21%.

Germany + Austria-Hungary. Number 311 thousand Losses 148 thousand, or 47%.

With the ratio of forces not 1,6 to 1 (520 to 311) but 2,1 to 1 (460 to 200), the losses will be different.

It can be expected that during the time of the Torno-Lodz Operation (10 days), during which the Russian troops will not defend, but advance, army losses can amount to:

Russia is 70-80 thousand people, and will not exceed 20% of the initial number, which means maintaining the offensive potential.

Germany may lose up to 130 thousand people. Those. not 47% as in RI, but more than 60% of the initial composition. This is a rout.

Bottom line - the path to Silesia is open, the cavalry of Khan Nakhichevan gets the opportunity to justify his existence and rush along the left bank of the Vistula to Danzig bypassing the attached fortresses. The Germans will have to hastily withdraw troops from the Western Front in order to build a line of defense along the Oder.

Further fantasy does not make sense. There are a lot of development options.

Script Weakness


The weak point of the painted picture is the readiness of the French and English to sit on the heels of the Germans and rush after them to the Rhine. The battle on the Marne ended on 12 of September and during it the French ran out of steam. But do not forget that the trench war has not yet begun. German barriers to rely on trench lines and barbed wire are not trained, and there is no time. The possibility of a jerk appears. Will they use it? If you take advantage, then after the French and British exit to the Rhine, it will be quite possible to begin negotiations on an honorable surrender. And then the war would get a chance to end before the white flies.

Why all these calculations? And the fact that the sad outcome of the war for Russia was not at all predetermined. And do not represent Russia as a weak link. Especially knowing the role of Great Britain in unleashing a world carnage.

But that would be a completely different story.
43 comments
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  1. +1
    8 October 2019 19: 10
    It is not at all necessary to consider "a hypothetical situation in which the East Prussian operation ended in success."
    The Russians have enough strength to attack Silesia and begin it successfully, the Germans themselves will transfer from the 8th army, all that they can into the 9th, or even will be withdrawn beyond the Vistula. They have a really strategic failure, they are bogged down on the main western front and can't help the east
    where the decisive battle of the entire war for the Silesian industrial region can begin from day to day. At the same time, the Austrian ally is "knocked down" and he still has problems in the south in Serbia, and the Russian "steam roller" has already been mobilized by mid-autumn.
    1. -1
      8 October 2019 22: 35
      But the offensive began unsuccessfully. And it's not a lack of strength. The command was in complete prostration.
      1. +2
        8 October 2019 22: 39
        Yes, we were not lucky with the German command-Ludendorf and Mackensen, perhaps the best German generals of that war
        1. -1
          8 October 2019 22: 41
          I am inclined to the idea that if Samsonov was a little luckier, he would still show himself. He was more determined than many.
          1. +1
            8 October 2019 23: 17
            It often happens in a war, someone is lucky, someone is not. I am not ready to discuss Samsonov’s military talents.
            As for his decisiveness, he received an active task and his army was greatly driven from above.
            If you mean the battle on the left flank of his army, then the issue is controversial, the army failed reconnaissance and actually fought a "battle with invisibility", not knowing not the enemy's forces, nor his plans, this does not seem to be calculating determination, but rather intuition when Samsonov realized that everything was decided there.
            Compare this with the graceful blow of the Germans from Thorn, on the flank, in the Лód операции operation.
  2. +4
    8 October 2019 19: 48
    I read with great interest
  3. 0
    9 October 2019 20: 37
    The weak point of the painted picture


    I would call the transportation of trains of the 1st Army of Rennenkampf from Königsberg to Warsaw in 10 days by September 15 the weak point. They would first have to somehow approach Königsberg, wait for Samsonov, surrender their positions to them, then walk back through the whole of Prussia. Only in Russia do you already take trains.
    1. -1
      9 October 2019 22: 13
      Losing positions is not necessary. Where are the Germans going?
      And if there is an encirclement of the 8 Army in the Allenstein area, consider the floor of the VP has already passed.
  4. +3
    10 October 2019 15: 41
    Imagine for a second that I am Karabut))
    He was silent, but I’ll say now I’m embedding the truth-uterus.
    And what happens with the articles? Sheer nonsense.
    That is - the article is built on unknown figures and semi-fantastic speculations.
    An alternative story is clear that it is fashionable now, but for this we need another section. With tolerances and fantasy flights))
    1. +5
      10 October 2019 15: 54
      Join Black Joe
      Flight of fancy schoolboy. More precisely, his understanding of historical events interspersed with dreams. We only make adjustments for the level of the Internet - know-it-all)
      1. +2
        10 October 2019 20: 26
        Compared to the first parts - a masterpiece))
        1. +4
          10 October 2019 22: 45
          It can be expected that during the time of the Torno-Lodz Operation (10 days), during which the Russian troops will not defend, but advance, army losses can amount to:
          Russia is 70-80 thousand people, and will not exceed 20% of the initial number, which means maintaining the offensive potential.
          Germany may lose up to 130 thousand people. Those. not 47% as in RI, but more than 60% of the initial composition. This is a rout.

          I wonder what these numbers are based on. wink
          or pure fantasy flight?
    2. -1
      10 October 2019 20: 57
      the article is based on unknown figures

      Teach the materiel, my friend, teach the materiel.
      1. +4
        10 October 2019 22: 46
        The numbers require a link to the source
        It's just outrageous if you want
        1. 0
          10 October 2019 23: 20
          What specific figure do you doubt?
          1. +4
            11 October 2019 06: 13
            ALL NUMBERS require reference to the source.
            For starters - I wrote above.
            Well, I repeat.
            It can be expected that during the time of the Torno-Lodz Operation (10 days), during which the Russian troops will not defend, but advance, army losses can amount to:
            Russia is 70-80 thousand people, and will not exceed 20% of the initial number, which means maintaining the offensive potential.
            Germany may lose up to 130 thousand people. Those. not 47% as in RI, but more than 60% of the initial composition. This is a rout.

            where does this dubious accounting come from?
  5. 0
    10 October 2019 16: 44
    However, in the considered version of the offensive, the Axis will not be.

    maybe the Triple Alliance?
    1. -1
      10 October 2019 20: 59
      What is a triple alliance if there are two allies - Germany and Austria? Italy has split off.
      But formally, you are right.
      1. +4
        10 October 2019 22: 48
        But formally, you are right.

        lol
        Yeah. Not formally and wrong.
        Wouldn't it be easier to name the Central Powers or the German Bloc until it became the Fourth?))
        In the course of the Axis from one opera with a fantasy wandering around the tree regarding a series of numbers
  6. -1
    10 October 2019 23: 33
    Albatroz (Manfred) I do not share your indignation.

    Sleight of hand and no fraud.
    Losses in a real story:
    Russia. Number 520 thousand Losses 110 thousand, or 21%.
    Germany + Austria-Hungary. Number 311 thousand Losses 148 thousand, or 47%.

    I explain on fingers: 311 thousand Germans inflicted losses on Russians in 110 thousand. How many losses will 200 thousand Germans inflict? Do you remember the math? What losses will the Germans inflict 460 thousand. Russians will be able to calculate?
    1. +4
      11 October 2019 14: 00
      Do not share my indignation?
      Then please explain where these numbers are taken from:
      Russia. Number 520 thousand Losses 110 thousand, or 21%.
      Germany + Austria-Hungary. Number 311 thousand Losses 148 thousand, or 47%.
      I explain on fingers: 311 thousand Germans inflicted losses on Russians in 110 thousand. How many losses will 200 thousand Germans inflict? Do you remember the math? What losses will the Germans inflict 460 thousand. Russians will be able to calculate?

      Mixed with semi-crazy reasoning))
      And also where does this doubtfully homegrown accounting come from:
      It can be expected that during the time of the Torno-Lodz Operation (10 days), during which the Russian troops will not defend, but advance, army losses can amount to:
      Russia is 70-80 thousand people, and will not exceed 20% of the initial number, which means maintaining the offensive potential.
      Germany may lose up to 130 thousand people. Those. not 47% as in RI, but more than 60% of the initial composition. This is a rout.

      From the head of a modeler who has become a historian or is there still a link to a credible source ??
      1. 0
        11 October 2019 19: 54
        Would you like a link to the source?
        Please. Source i.
        Would you like to challenge the methodology of my calculations?
        Please. I challenge you to a duel in mathematics.
        1. +3
          11 October 2019 19: 56
          I got what you mean.
          Zero history, one math. Then what does the story have to do with it?
          Okay. Forgive me for immodest questions)
          1. 0
            11 October 2019 20: 04
            That is, in essence, the problem, namely, the likely victory of the Entente, there are no clear objections?
            You are not in a position to challenge / recount the numbers?
            You are not able to understand that this is a calculation of probable losses during an offensive, which in real history was not?
            What are you trying to convict me of? That I studied mathematics at school, and did not smoke a textbook around the corner? Does it annoy you?
            Even a hint of Russia's victory in the WWII makes you cramp? I believe in it. I know your brother well, I can smell a mile away.
            Not surprised at your appearance, but glad that you are few. Apparently died out like mammoths.
            1. +3
              11 October 2019 20: 11
              Okay, if you want to continue, then please.
              One can challenge the vision of the historical process, relying on FACTS, and not on idle speculation.
              There is one clear objection - you replaced the story with your own understandable calculations.
              There is nothing behind the numbers, since you cannot even name the source. I tried to understand this - at least with respect to the basic numbers. Are you aware that indicating the source of numbers is a good tone?
              At least for those numbers from which you repel, can you name the source of borrowing, or also the source - your brain?)
              1. 0
                11 October 2019 20: 19
                Maybe I misunderstood you?
                You do not know the size of the forces opposing the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation?
                Do you think the numbers testifying to the victory of the Russian army in this operation seem incredible? Would you like my ancestors to shower your corpses?
                You do not like my hypothetical calculations based on historical statistics?
                Ok, counter request. Sound the figures of the losses of the Russian army in an unsuccessful operation for the Germans and Austrians that would help you fall asleep happy today. But I sincerely ask, do not calculate our losses in millions. Today it is no longer fashionable and they no longer pay for it.
                1. +3
                  11 October 2019 20: 21
                  You do not know the size of the forces opposing the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation?

                  And I want to hear this from you with reference to the source.
                  To understand whether you have a relationship with history. Having learned this, I will satisfy your response request.
                  Well, as for the fact that I would have dreamed of Russia's victory in the WWII - you can have no doubt about it)
                  1. 0
                    11 October 2019 21: 00
                    I guessed.
                    You expect me to say that I used Wikipedia, and you will laugh at demonic laughter, and say that the link to Wikipedia completely nullifies the assumption that Russia could win.
                    Well, the mention that the figures I quoted are mentioned in the Soviet Military Encyclopedia will suit you?
                    If not, name a source you believe to be trustworthy. Devils are curious.
                    1. +3
                      11 October 2019 21: 04
                      No, I’m not waiting for Wikipedia.
                      Let there be a Military Encyclopedia) But, unfortunately, not all operations are registered in it.
                      If I understood correctly, you did not look at the source database and literature specifically for operations. This is sad, but in order to ride on the top is probably enough
                      1. 0
                        12 October 2019 09: 40
                        Not certainly in that way. There were several sources. The list did not make.
                        I sincerely do not understand which numbers do not like?
                        And yet, yes, a short article on the dissertation did not swing. For who will read the sheet?
                      2. +1
                        12 October 2019 17: 01
                        I just sincerely do not understand how to give the original numbers without reference to the source. It looked like hooliganism) That's what was the basis of the question
                      3. +1
                        12 October 2019 17: 16
                        Sorry if you took the time, it became interesting)
                        I agree with the tone of the article, with a number of conclusions and with some (but not all !!) figures
                      4. +1
                        12 October 2019 18: 43
                        You should not apologize. I didn’t immediately understand you either. Your posts below are more likely to be in favor of my numbers. Let's continue the conversation and discuss our differences. What specific figures seem doubtful? I'm damn curious.
                      5. +1
                        12 October 2019 19: 40
                        I did not say dubious ones, I said that I did not agree with everyone. If there were indications of a source in the source, I would have realized faster)
                        For instance. You have said:
                        But in the situation under consideration, Russia has an ace up its sleeve called the 10 Army. What is the 10 army? These are the 11 infantry and 2 cavalry divisions. Approximately 130 000 bayonets and sabers.
                        ?
                        In September (at the beginning of the First August Operation), the 10th Army included 9 infantry divisions. Are we talking about this period?
                      6. +1
                        13 October 2019 14: 05
                        Just now I finally understood what I’m talking about. You would more accurately indicate interest. I thought it was about another. As a result, part of the correspondence turned out to be unproductive.
                        But in fact you are right. My numbers are more suitable for the August operation of January 1915. Looked.
                        For the period described, we can confidently speak of 4 buildings - 22AK, 3 Siberian, 1 Turkestan and 2 Caucasian. I do not have reliable information about the guaranteed reinforcement of the 10 Army by the beginning and during a hypothetical offensive.
                        Thank you for your attentiveness to reasonable persistence.
                      7. 0
                        14 October 2019 17: 42
                        But you must admit that it is sad - when the author uses the wrong information ...
                      8. 0
                        14 October 2019 21: 21
                        I repent, sinful.
                        In justification, I can say that this will not significantly affect the general conclusions.
                        As it seems to me now, the army that did not complete the formation of the offensive could well be the second echelon, rushing into a breakthrough.
  7. -2
    12 October 2019 16: 50
    A lie is written about the losses. According to the study of S.G. Nelipovich "Russian front of the First World War. Losses of the parties. 1914" (Moscow, 2017) in the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation, Russian troops (2,4, 5 and 9th armies) lost 155,1 thousand people (16,7 thousand killed / dead, 74,3 thousand wounded / shell-shocked , 64,1 thousand missing). The enemy lost 81,2 thousand people, including Germans - 25,2 thousand, Austro-Hungarians - 56 thousand
    1. +1
      12 October 2019 17: 14
      Nelipovich is a dangerous provocateur-Germanophile, and yet not quite in the subject.
      The following facts testify to the quality of this candidate's "research":
      so, for example, he criticized in one of his works the RAS specialist D.I. n. SN Bazanov on the subject of incorrect losses of the Austro-Germans by prisoners during the Brusilov offensive of 1916 with the following words "on the pages of historical works, incorrect figures continue to wander about 420 thousand prisoners." And at the end of the same article he writes - so, prisoner losses, the losses of Austrian and German troops amounted to 420 thousand people))
      What is it like???
      And in another book indicates that the loss of German troops in the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation by prisoners amounted to 200 (!!!) people. This is one of the largest strategic operations of WWI!
      If interested - I will send links indicating the pages.
      So do not take this character, Nelipovich seriously.
      1. 0
        12 October 2019 17: 26
        This kind of "Germanophile" in which the real level of German losses in the East in 1914 compared to the official level is almost twice as high (256,4 thousand against 149,4 thousand).
        1. +1
          12 October 2019 17: 28
          Well, reality - it takes its toll)
          What do you mean by "official"?)
          1. 0
            12 October 2019 17: 39
            Sanitätsbericht über das Deutsche Heer (Deutsches Feld- und Besatzungsheer) im Weltkriege 1914/1918 (Deutscher Kriegssanitätsbericht 1914/18).

            So leave the rivets on Nelipovich to yourself, a person spends a lot of work with archives and literature.
            1. +1
              12 October 2019 17: 55
              Why on earth had the Sanitary Loss Report become official ?? Because he was called so non-Lipovic?
              Especially if it diverges from the main text of the Reichsarchive)
              So leave the rivets on Nelipovich with you
              This is not slander, but real facts. Do you believe in 200 German prisoners during the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation?))
              Stupidity or treason?) Not the possession of material or the processing of German money?)
              man does a great job
              let him spend it.
              The only question is - for what purpose and in what direction