Military Review

Named the main weapon of the corvette "Mercury", called the media "Russian Zamvolt"

254
Some features and characteristics of the latest domestic mercury ship "Mercury" are presented. We are talking about the corvette, which in some media have already dubbed the "Russian Zamvolt" (although Zumwalt is a destroyer).


Named the main weapon of the corvette "Mercury", called the media "Russian Zamvolt"

Photos from the construction of the corvette project 22160


On the TV channel "Star" The deputy chief designer of warships of the 20386 project spoke about the uniqueness of Mercury. It, he said, consists in the fact that it can be used not only in the near sea zone, but also in the far, including the ocean. This is also due to the use of elements with improved characteristics.

According to the deputy chief designer, “there are probably no analogues in the world” - the helicopter on the corvette is stored in a hangar under the upper deck.

An economical stroke is provided by the rowing electric motors.

From the corvette report:

At other speeds, 20-30 nodes, these speeds are achieved by the progressive commissioning of turbines.

The use of composite materials can reduce the weight of the warship, which in turn contributes to its re-equipment.

What is the main weapon Mercury? It is noted that the Uran anti-ship missile system will become such a weapon. These systems were adopted in the 2003 year. To place weapons, it is planned to use the so-called transform compartment. Moreover, the increased space for installing weapons on the ships of this project allows them to be equipped with Caliber missiles.

From the material on the Zvezda shopping center:

At Mercury, underwater surveillance systems will be provided - as part of the towing and antenna towed stations.
Corvettes of this project will receive sets of torpedoes and torpedoes.

It is added that a silent adjustable-pitch screw will be used on Mercury.

The main question is: when will this ship, laid down in the 2016 year, enter the Russian Navy? They promise that this will happen in the 2022 year.
254 comments
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 16 September 2019 07: 03
    +42
    The main weapon of the corvette "Mercury", named by the media "by the Russian Zamvolt"
    zamvolt ???? which, in principle, was not capable of anything? "compliment" so-so. laughing
    1. Karaul14
      Karaul14 16 September 2019 07: 27
      -4
      Quote: Dead Day
      zamvolt ???? which, in principle, was not capable of anything? "compliment" so-so.
      For example, I have no doubt that all problems with the Zamvolty will be eliminated, and so they already have 3 huge 14 thousand tons of ships, fully stuffed with all kinds of weapons and with EPR 50 times lower than that of a regular ship. So this is a compliment to this Corvette.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 16 September 2019 19: 30
        +8
        Quote: Karaul14
        and so they already have 3 huge 14 thousand tons of ships, fully stuffed with all kinds of weapons

        The weapons of the Zwolt are inferior to the weapons of Burke.
        1. Bogatyrev
          Bogatyrev 17 September 2019 22: 38
          +3
          Come on ))
          Yes, rockets are slightly smaller, but other characteristics - security, radar, integration into the connection, command functions - are much better.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 17 September 2019 23: 06
            0
            Quote: Bogatyrev
            but other characteristics

            so good that instead of 32 they built only 3.
            1. Bogatyrev
              Bogatyrev 23 September 2019 00: 21
              0
              Do not want to build - expensive. For example, the Sivulfs also wanted to build more, but having built only 3, they switched to Virginia. And then something like this may be. And Zamvolt will remain an expensive experiment. Although, on occasion, it can be a blow somewhere.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 23 September 2019 19: 23
                0
                Quote: Bogatyrev
                Do not want to build - expensive.

                Expensive. But if the benefit corresponded to the price, then they would not be limited to three, and so ...
                1. Bogatyrev
                  Bogatyrev 25 September 2019 00: 00
                  0
                  Its utility is not in direct combat value. This is a revolutionary ship. Therefore, there are three of them - enough to run in different combinations. Having run in, they will form a completely new concept of Future Battleship. And there will be a new generation of Berks and Ticonderogs.
                  In vain you underestimate their approach - thanks to people like Rickover, they have developed a very competent innovation strategy, which is still far from us.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 25 September 2019 20: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Bogatyrev
                    Therefore, there are three of them - enough to run in different combinations.

                    What combinations? If you are about working out some technical solutions, then one is enough, but at first they wanted 30, and then having built 1 they decided to complete only 2.
                    1. Bogatyrev
                      Bogatyrev 27 September 2019 11: 02
                      0
                      Firstly, maybe there are some differences in equipment, hidden from others, just like all three Sivulfa are completely different boats.
                      Secondly, some solutions require more than one attempt.
                      Thirdly, there is the possibility of group interaction, which is especially important when you consider that in Zamvolte everything was initially sharpened for network-centric concepts. And there are many possible combinations.
                      And fourthly, Zamvolt is just a rather powerful ship and has its own combat significance. Each new Zamvolt is a large fleet unit. They are expanding the fleet in such a way and can very well afford such a test series. More - it makes no sense, because expensive, but three - just right.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 September 2019 18: 48
                        0
                        1, 2 and 3 - it somehow comes out a little expensive even for the USA.
                        4 -
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The weapons of the Zwolt are inferior to the weapons of Burke.
                      2. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 28 September 2019 00: 16
                        0
                        "1, 2 and 3 are a little expensive" - ​​by no means. This is a normal price to pay for such a breakout.
                        "Armament is inferior to Burke" - not very noticeable. Quite acceptable given the goal. And then - is it worth it so mundane? Berks are already enough. There are enough of them, but we are talking about the next generation, which may replace Burke.
                      3. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 28 September 2019 06: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        "Armament is inferior to Burke" - not very noticeable.

                        With a displacement of one and a half times more noticeable. If they were the same in size, then one could still doubt it.
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        but we are talking about the next generation, which may replace Burke
                        Not replace
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        instead of 32 only 3 were built
                      4. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 29 September 2019 00: 27
                        0
                        Displacement is not the main criterion for the cost of a ship. Their boxes are very stuffed.

                        As for the replacement of the Berks, I did not mean Zamwalt, but the next series.
                      5. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 29 September 2019 06: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        Displacement is not the main criterion for the cost of a ship. Their boxes are very stuffed.

                        Actually, I'm talking about weapons.
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        replacing Berkov, then I did not mean Zamwolt, but the next series

                        And the next episode will be Burke. They don’t even plan anything else.
                      6. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 30 September 2019 00: 21
                        0
                        Why would they change Burke now? They are useful and effective. But these are promising ships)))
                      7. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 30 September 2019 19: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        Why would they change Burke now?

                        Why were you going? And, by the way, their service life is already approaching 30 years, which is pretty decent.
                      8. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 30 September 2019 21: 44
                        0
                        Berks were created to understand what kind of war.
                        The Americans do not now see a clear concept of the fleet of the future. Their ideas are vague (as can be seen from the same Zamvolt at least).
                        Now their main challenge is the construction of the PRC fleet + new Russian missiles. But they are not yet ready to precisely determine the goals and objectives of the fleet. And so they are on the lookout for what engenders projects like Zamwolt.
                        They are not the only ones looking. Such concepts are also being created by other countries (the Advance program or battery multi-purpose submarine).
                        They are united by one thing - the desire to maximize the use of the technical level of the West to gain an advantage. But how exactly is not yet decided.
                      9. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 30 September 2019 23: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        The Americans do not now see a clear concept of the fleet of the future.

                        I can’t say what they see or don’t see, one can only guess here, but Zamvolt is an unsuccessful project.
                      10. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 1 October 2019 22: 19
                        +1
                        Here is a list of some failed projects:

                        KR "Tempest" (OKB LA)
                        RVK 9K73
                        IT 1
                        Lun
                        Object 477A

                        and many others.

                        Progress is impossible without innovation. Not all decisions can be pre-calculated and verified.
                      11. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 October 2019 22: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        Progress is impossible without innovation. Not all decisions can be pre-calculated and verified.

                        I know. But the fact that Zamvolt is just one of the failed projects.
                      12. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 5 October 2019 00: 50
                        0
                        Let’s see what appears after Zwolvt.

                        But Zavmolt himself is a rather valuable ship. Useful in case of any conflict. Like Burke.
                      13. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 5 October 2019 07: 06
                        0
                        Quote: Bogatyrev
                        Useful in case of any conflict. Like Burke

                        Useful. Only from a couple of Berks is more than one Zolvolt's sense.
                      14. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 5 October 2019 16: 20
                        0
                        So what? They have a lot of Burke. Enough for now.
                        Well, Zamvolt will not be amiss. So they can very well experiment without much damage.
                      15. Bogatyrev
                        Bogatyrev 12 October 2019 22: 40
                        0
                        And - and more.
                        The main innovation of Zamvolt is the layout of the control system, operators and commanders. It is much more optimal than even on aircraft carriers. Dozens of operators, optimal distribution of information and solutions, large general information displays. Thus, Zamvolt is designed to control large connections of other ships. This is the perfect compound headquarters.
                      16. bddrus
                        bddrus 4 January 2020 12: 53
                        0
                        those. you don't really know anything, but you are praising the Americans, just because they are Americans - "maybe there is!" this p..ts dear comrades!
    2. Svarog
      Svarog 16 September 2019 07: 29
      -4
      Quote: Dead Day
      zamvolt ???? which, in principle, was not capable of anything? "compliment" so-so.


      The main question is: when will this ship, laid down in the 2016 year, enter the Russian Navy? They promise that this will happen in the 2022 year.

      So they will build it for 6 years ..
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 16 September 2019 07: 37
        +9
        Quote: Svarog
        So they will build it for 6 years ..

        not a fact ... maybe 10.
        1. Maxim Guzevatov
          Maxim Guzevatov 16 September 2019 08: 30
          -5
          or maybe as with a leader - he seems to be in plans and layouts that have been shown on TV for years, but he will never be in hardware
          1. Nick
            Nick 16 September 2019 16: 27
            0
            Quote: Maxim Guzevatov
            or maybe as with a leader - he seems to be in plans and layouts that have been shown on TV for years, but he will never be in hardware

            Yes and no. For today's tasks, we have enough corvettes of frigates and cruisers. And tomorrow will be tomorrow ...
            1. bddrus
              bddrus 4 January 2020 12: 54
              0
              it’s better to get prepared tomorrow, and when it comes, we will only begin to design and try to lay it. and tomorrow we need to shape ourselves
              1. Nick
                Nick 4 January 2020 13: 35
                0
                Quote: bddrus
                it’s better to get prepared tomorrow, and when it comes, we will only begin to design and try to lay it. and tomorrow we need to shape ourselves

                We are forming already
        2. AUL
          AUL 16 September 2019 11: 22
          +3
          Quote: Dead Day
          Quote: Svarog
          So they will build it for 6 years ..

          not a fact ... maybe 10.

          So they would write about him when they’ll even lower them to the water! And our ever-creeping terms are already sick of it!
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 15
            -2
            And our ever-creeping terms are already sick of it!


            The daring Mercury will set a new record in this matter. Do not even hesitate.
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 16 September 2019 07: 03
    +58
    It would be necessary for the phrase "unparalleled in the world" to be deprived of his post. And it is better to drive to the assembly of the same carvettes, because there is a shortage of workers. And it’s time for officials to remember the common truth - if you don’t know how to work with your head, work with your hands!
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 16 September 2019 08: 00
        +11
        According to the deputy chief designer, “there are probably no analogues in the world” - the helicopter on the corvette is stored in a hangar under the upper deck.

        Operation of helicopters on the cruiser "Orlan": you are standing on deck, the helicopter is under your feet. First you need to open the wings of the hangar, then go down below the deck and roll the platform with the 10-ton helicopter onto the lift, secure it, and then it's a matter of technique - when the helicopter is on the upper deck it remains to roll it onto the take-off platform. Remove the helicopter under the deck - all actions are in reverse order.
        1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
          Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 16 September 2019 08: 02
          +17
          There are three rotorcraft on board the Orlan.

          1. sivuch
            sivuch 16 September 2019 09: 19
            +5
            when I worked in the North, we were told about 4 - one in the air or on the deck, 3 inside
            1. Nick
              Nick 16 September 2019 16: 31
              -1
              Quote: sivuch
              when I worked in the North, we were told about 4 - one in the air or on the deck, 3 inside

              And so the fakes are exposed. hi
          2. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 05
            +1
            In general, there should be two turntables, the third will have to be stored either on the lift or on the deck. And this greatly complicates all operations with helicopters. In the correct version, nothing should be stored on the lift, and our "deck parking" is not climate-sensitive.

            Although on a long trip to the warm regions, you can take three.
            1. bddrus
              bddrus 4 January 2020 12: 56
              0
              why on the lift is impossible? Is it that the seaman are using the elevator instead? or religion again?
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 4 January 2020 17: 03
                0
                Why not? Can. Simply undesirable, the movement and maintenance of helicopters is complicated
        2. goose
          goose 16 September 2019 09: 11
          +1
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          Remove the helicopter under the deck - all actions are in reverse order.

          But since there is only one helicopter, then minus 2 actions.
        3. Foxnova
          Foxnova 17 September 2019 13: 41
          0
          At 1155 a cool hangar
      2. bondrostov
        bondrostov 16 September 2019 08: 07
        +3
        Yes, this is already sore. am
    2. Tusv
      Tusv 16 September 2019 07: 34
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      do not know how to work your head, work with your hands!

      Amendment To work with your hands you need a head. Because it is better to back in professions where hands are only a grasping tool
    3. Chaldon48
      Chaldon48 16 September 2019 10: 38
      0
      Exactly, tapor in hand and felled!
    4. Sergey Obraztsov
      Sergey Obraztsov 17 September 2019 08: 18
      +2
      If the designer had in mind that for this class of ships (corvettes) there are no analogues with a hangar for a helicopter located under the upper deck, then I do not see what the problem is ...
      1. bddrus
        bddrus 4 January 2020 12: 58
        0
        well, you know - this version of "analogs in the world" can come to absolutely stupid ideas - the main thing is that there are no analogues - it will be like with "elusive Joe"
    5. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 15
      0
      Put 49-th plus laughing
  3. Nycomed
    Nycomed 16 September 2019 07: 09
    +5
    I would like to believe in all this very much, but the "ocean zone corvette" is already alarming. And this, in my opinion, is absolutely correct: "It would be necessary for the phrase "unparalleled in the world" to be deprived of his post."
    Well enough already carry themselves in their arms!
    1. Constructor68
      Constructor68 16 September 2019 08: 50
      -1

      Nycomed
      Today, 07: 09
      I would like very much to all of this
      I would like to believe in all this very much, but the "ocean zone corvette" is already alarming

      Do not strain you already with all these arguments about the seaworthiness of the corvette. Go straight to "everything is gone, everything is bad with us, there are no modern weapons systems, the army has collapsed" and so on.
    2. alexmach
      alexmach 16 September 2019 11: 26
      +4
      but, the "ocean zone corvette" is already alarming

      No, everything is correct here, he has both displacement and power reserve and autonomy more.
    3. Nick
      Nick 16 September 2019 16: 39
      +1
      Quote: Nycomed
      I would like to believe in all this very much, but the "ocean zone corvette" is already alarming.

      Fedor Konyukhov crossed the Atlantic on a rowing boat, and Thor Heyerdahl the Pacific Ocean on a balsa raft. I think on a modern corvette it will be easier to go around the oceans.
      1. Povelitel_buri
        Povelitel_buri 16 September 2019 18: 05
        +2
        Quote: Nick
        Fedor Konyukhov crossed the Atlantic on a rowing boat, and Thor Heyerdahl the Pacific Ocean on a balsa raft. I think on a modern corvette it will be easier to go around the oceans.

        you somehow primitively understand the concept of "seaworthiness"
        1. Nick
          Nick 16 September 2019 21: 01
          -1
          Quote: Povelitel_buri
          you somehow primitively understand the concept of "seaworthiness"

          Seaworthiness depends not only on the displacement of the ship but also on other factors. The center of mass, the hull sail, maneuverability, placement of ballast, etc. .. In the project Mercury use a lot of composite. This is a superstructure and bulkheads in the compartments, the shape of the hull is improved in terms of hydrodynamics. The displacement in 2500 tons is also larger than that of the Corvette of the Steregushchiy 2200 project.
          In essence, Mercury is an intermediate ship between a corvette and a frigate. Displacement of frigates from 3000 tons to 6000 tons
          1. Povelitel_buri
            Povelitel_buri 16 September 2019 22: 21
            +1
            Displacement in 2500 tons

            Amendment - 3400 tons. But even such a VI, reduced CT due to CM will not make the corvette frigate an ocean ship. There ave. 22350 and that feels so-so.
            1. Nick
              Nick 17 September 2019 11: 12
              0
              Quote: Povelitel_buri
              Displacement in 2500 tons

              Amendment - 3400 tons. But even such a VI, reduced CT due to CM will not make the corvette frigate an ocean ship. There ave. 22350 and that feels so-so.

              I will not discuss with you, my knowledge in this matter is not very. Only the question of tonnage bothers me. The figure of the displacement of the Mercury 3400 tons project is walking on the Web, but last Sunday the host voiced the figure in 2500 tons on the Zvezda shopping center. Or is he not in the subject, or misunderstood, or something else?
              If you are in the know, please clarify the tonnage.
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 34
                0
                3400 tons, hi stock volume for modularity. Leading was wrong.
              2. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 September 2019 16: 39
                +1
                Quote: Nick
                last Sunday at the Zvezda shopping center, the presenter voiced a figure of 2500 tons. Or is he not in the subject, or misunderstood, or something else?

                there is all the voice acting nonsense
              3. Povelitel_buri
                Povelitel_buri 17 September 2019 19: 33
                0
                Quote: Nick
                the leader voiced the figure of 2500 tons

                the author of the issue there, of course, again "distinguished himself", but, generally speaking, I did not hear the mention of the displacement of the project 20386 of 2500 tons. Even if I missed this point in the release, then I can tell you for sure that this figure refers to the 20385 project.
          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 September 2019 16: 40
            +1
            Quote: Nick
            bulkheads in compartments

            fool
            Quote: Nick
            Displacement in 2500 tons

            negative
            Quote: Nick
            In essence, Mercury is an intermediate ship between a corvette and a frigate. Displacement of frigates from 3000 tons to 6000 tons

            Displacement 20386 - 3400
            IT WAS
            and continues to grow
            1. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 20: 34
              0
              and continues to grow

              laughing
              But from this place come on in more detail!
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 September 2019 20: 38
                +1
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                But from this place come on in more detail!

                "the process of eliminating design flaws has begun"
                more precisely ATTEMPT ...
    4. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 07
      0
      but, the "ocean zone corvette" is already alarming.


      It’s good to give the corvette a maximum of seaworthiness. But not with this ship.
    5. nickname7
      nickname7 17 September 2019 18: 04
      0
      The instructions apparently have not yet been changed.
    6. bddrus
      bddrus 4 January 2020 12: 58
      0
      who if not we?)))
  4. shinobi
    shinobi 16 September 2019 07: 10
    +1
    And look at this miracle, at least look at the sketch with one glance?
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 September 2019 07: 16
      -5
      Quote: shinobi
      And look at this miracle, at least look at the sketch with one glance?

      and this "miracle" will be able to reload with torpedoes at sea, and not in port, like the rest of the "miracles"?
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 16 September 2019 08: 11
        +3
        No torpedoes - no problems. Well, and so, there is only the 2x4 Package. Similar to 20380. Only it is hidden even deeper and there will be even more crap with reloading in the port.
        1. Grandfather
          Grandfather 16 September 2019 08: 30
          -3
          Quote: donavi49
          No torpedoes - no problems. Well, and so, there is only the 2x4 Package. Similar to 20380. Only it is hidden even deeper and there will be even more crap with reloading in the port.

          understandable ... "supercorvettes" damn ... why no one was shot for such sabotage?
          1. Piramidon
            Piramidon 16 September 2019 09: 13
            +6
            Quote: Dead Day
            why no one was shot for such wrecking?

            What article? Forgot what system and what year now? Why should you shake the air and ask stupid questions?
      2. sivuch
        sivuch 16 September 2019 09: 28
        +3
        NNP, on Orlan-11442 there were URTPU with reloading - 5 more products. Another thing, I do not know if it was possible to quickly replace one type of torpedo with another or with a waterfall. Only lads from 52 (seemingly) department knew about such things
      3. Nick
        Nick 16 September 2019 16: 41
        0
        Quote: Dead Day
        and this "miracle" will be able to reload with torpedoes at sea, and not in port, like the rest of the "miracles"?

        In modern conditions, this is unnecessary. Change the package and continue to serve.
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 08
          +1
          Well, how will they change something? The submarine fired a salvo, the package was fired, the anti-torpedo was gone, after half a day the submarine jerked over the corvette or the convoy guarded by it and fired again. AND?
          1. Nick
            Nick 17 September 2019 16: 28
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, how will they change something? The submarine fired a salvo, the package was fired, the anti-torpedo was gone, after half a day the submarine jerked over the corvette or the convoy guarded by it and fired again. AND?

            I think that the submarine will be destroyed. With her torpedo salvo, she unmasks herself.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 September 2019 16: 37
              +1
              Quote: Nick
              With her torpedo salvo, she unmasks herself.

              1. They shoot secretly (unlike us)
              2. They shoot from long distances (much more than the full range of the "Packet")
            2. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 20: 58
              +1
              What is destroyed? There is no PLUR, you’ll pick up the helicopter, plus you have to guess from the BC - whether there is a search option, or a search-and-strike, or a strike, weather permitting or not allowing, the submarine left the launch site or not, there is an acoustic torpedo at the TA exit spotted or not - it's not easy in this case. PLA has an advantage in stealth and in the range of destruction, and can corvette any type of battle.
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 September 2019 19: 06
          +1
          Quote: Nick
          In modern conditions, this is unnecessary.

          don't smack nonsense
          most submarines are able to form a salvo known to be "piercing" "Packet"
          PM
      4. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 23
        0
        Not. Can not.
    2. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
      Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 16 September 2019 08: 04
      +14
      Quote: shinobi
      And look at this miracle, at least look at the sketch with one glance?

    3. donavi49
      donavi49 16 September 2019 08: 09
      +6
      Yes, a couple of years ago, introduced.



      1. Grits
        Grits 16 September 2019 10: 22
        0
        So this, it turns out, is the ship that previously appeared everywhere under the name "Daring". And I thought that something new ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 09
          0
          Hehe you still do not know the story of the substitution of this boat.
          1. Grits
            Grits 17 September 2019 13: 52
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Hehe you still do not know the story of the substitution of this boat.

            Share it
            1. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 52
              0
              Later, now a little at the wrong time.
    4. siemens7774
      siemens7774 16 September 2019 10: 20
      +1
      Sinobi. Look at the airbase. Marine.
  5. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 16 September 2019 07: 17
    +3
    In fact, "Zamvolt", like the "famous" rabbit, which is not only 3-4 kg of meat, but also ....., is also known not only for "stealth technologies", but also for an impressive "reserve" of electric energy for future use of weapons "on new physical principles" ...
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 September 2019 07: 38
      +2
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      In fact, "Zamvolt", like the "famous" rabbit, which is not only 3-4 kg of meat, but also ....., is also known not only for "stealth technologies", but also for an impressive "reserve" of electric energy for future use of weapons "on new physical principles" ...

      so far, he is known for the fact that there is no weapons, and the "move" too ...
    2. shinobi
      shinobi 17 September 2019 10: 26
      0
      Are you talking about railguns? Vryatli, in the coming years 20. There is one reason that has not yet been solved by anyone. Compact energy-supplying related equipment. And the gun’s rate of fire depends on it. So it’s easier for the military to install a regular artillery machine gun with ammunition stock, yes and cheaper.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 17 September 2019 11: 45
        0
        Quote: shinobi
        Are you talking about railguns?

        Not only ... "Zamvolt" is not only a combat unit of the US Navy; but also a demonstrator of the latest concept, the implementation of which is planned for a long time to come ... And within the framework of this concept, the widespread use of "high-energy" weapons is envisaged in the (near) future ...
        1. shinobi
          shinobi 18 September 2019 01: 38
          0
          We’ll wait and see. Many technology demonstrators remain demonstrators. Dear he, Zumwalt. Weapons should be simple, reliable, cheap and easily replenished.
  6. mark1
    mark1 16 September 2019 07: 39
    0
    "Uranus" is about nothing, the air defense system is silent. It turns out a gigantic (3500 tons), under-armed corvette of the "ocean zone", much inferior to pr 20385. If you have nothing to say (or a great secret). it's better to just keep quiet
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 September 2019 08: 12
      +9
      SAM is the same redoubt in the nasal battery. Ammunition is identical to 20385.

      1. mvg
        mvg 16 September 2019 22: 45
        +3
        What about the radar? Something I do not see paintings AFAR
        1. Aqr009
          Aqr009 16 September 2019 23: 03
          0
          Something I do not see paintings AFAR

          But is it integrated with the wheelhouse?
          1. mvg
            mvg 17 September 2019 07: 05
            +1
            Sorry nonsense
            1. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 27
              +2
              That's right, the radar canvases of the miracle ship are integrated into the plastic superstructure. One of the possible consequences now is the inability to provide the radar at high speed due to continuous and unpredictable deformation of the hull. This is not a fact, but it is possible. And until the tests begin, even specialists can only approximately predict whether such a problem emerges or not.
              1. mvg
                mvg 17 September 2019 18: 02
                +2
                Thank. It seems to me that it's a bit low.
              2. bddrus
                bddrus 4 January 2020 13: 48
                0
                But on the cans with this, everything is OK, because the Americans?
                1. timokhin-aa
                  timokhin-aa 4 January 2020 17: 10
                  -1
                  On the Berks, the radar is much higher. Yes, and the Americans might have put it higher, but Spay has very large and heavy canvases, they can’t assemble a mast for such.
                  Moreover, due to its size and the fact that the steel superstructure is not necessary to Burke, it is not necessary to continuously adjust the radar, even during the shooting process.
                  But under the "Zaslonovskoe" miracle there is just a mast, so it was a crime to hang this radar on the hull.

                  Well, okay, judging by the news about the project, it may not be built.
      2. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 24
        +1
        Only when repelling an attack from nasal angles, you cannot simultaneously use a gun and an air defense system. And on 20385 you can.
  7. donavi49
    donavi49 16 September 2019 08: 07
    +20
    What is the article about?

    Particularly amused was the electric course, which had no analogues, when the carriage and the cart were analogous. Now almost every frigate corvette is built according to this scheme. So you can ensure relative low noise and search for boats on the go. Unlike any Albatrosses who can work only in pairs, one stands and listens, and the second runs to the point of probable contact, becomes = turns off the car and listens, the first breaks down and goes to the second area adjusted for contact. Well, etc.

    The composition of the weapons was known since the presentation. Only in the article they are silent that if we take Caliber = then we throw out the helicopter.

    1. sivuch
      sivuch 16 September 2019 09: 33
      +1
      Especially amused the electric course which has no analogues
      So the electric ship is a rowboat! wink (from article)
      By the way, I somehow didn’t specifically look - did you use VSS before this project somewhere? In Soviet times - only VFSH
      1. alexmach
        alexmach 16 September 2019 11: 12
        +9
        By the way, I somehow didn’t specifically look - did you use VSS before this project somewhere? In Soviet times - only VFSH

        In my opinion, they all messed up with these corvettes. I watched the program itself, there it was about VRS at 20385. In my opinion.

        In general, judging by the programs of the Star, it is probably quite difficult to judge anything - a lot of water and inaccuracies. For example, this one spoke at the same time about 20380, 20385, 20386 and a little about 22350, quietly dumping all the characteristics in one pile.
        1. Sergey Obraztsov
          Sergey Obraztsov 17 September 2019 08: 20
          +1
          With all my patriotism, the Star is much more useful to watch, not listen. -_-
          1. PPD
            PPD 17 September 2019 10: 45
            0
            It did not reach how in real life Polyment-Redoubt on 20380 works.
            Yes, with such air defense only in the ocean zone.
    2. Vadmir
      Vadmir 16 September 2019 16: 36
      +2
      Only in the article they are silent that if we take Caliber = then we throw out the helicopter.
      I also don’t like this project, I don’t like it yet, maybe because I don’t know much about it yet.
      But the lack of Caliber in the basic version is a plus. Since the corvette is a warship, the purpose of which is mainly anti-submarine warfare in the near sea zone and escort of other ships, including in the far sea zone.
      Caliber, to solve these problems is not needed, for self-defense it will be enough and Uranus, which is easier and more compact, which means it takes up less space for the main equipment.
      The nearest sea zone is up to 200 miles from the coast (up to 370 km). In fact, it is under the umbrella of coastal air defense and in the domination zone of coastal aviation, in the zone of anti-ship missiles shot by coastal complexes. He doesn’t need calibers, rather harmful — they will persecute all kinds of barmalei, distracting them from the main task — ensuring that our SSBNs are on alert, tracking enemy submarines near our territorial waters.
      Let me remind you, those same Americans do not put their Tomahawks on either corvettes or frigates. We put these Caliber everywhere, even on RTOs, 24 pieces were ordered by Karakurt alone, there will be 80 Caliber on one modernized Nakhimov. So, it's time to remember that our fleet has different tasks and not all ships should have a Caliber. Let me remind you that the INF Treaty is canceled - soon the land version of the Caliber will appear.
      The fact that the ship is bigger, and the weapons on it looks less like a flaw of this ship, but this ship should be at sea constantly, and not only when it needs to show the flag somewhere, it has such a job, which means it needs better living conditions. These ships are intended for the Northern Fleet, where seaworthiness 20380 is already not enough.
      Another thing is that there are also questions on PLO. Electric movement is low noise, an absolute plus. Lack of PLUR or 533mm minus torpedo tubes, towed ASU and plus helicopter, but reduced capabilities of the bow ASU minus. However, perhaps we do not know everything.
      1. mvg
        mvg 16 September 2019 22: 49
        +2
        the same Americans do not put their Tomahawks on either corvettes or frigates

        Why, the Americans have frigates? Yah.. wink and more?
        1. Vadmir
          Vadmir 16 September 2019 22: 59
          +1
          Now not, but once there were, "Oliver Perry" Tomahawks did not have, only Harpoons. We would consider it advisable to put Tomahawks.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 17 September 2019 11: 05
          0
          Quote: mvg
          Why, the Americans have frigates? Yah.. wink and more?

          There were - "OHP" and "Knox".
          And they will - because USN, according to the experience of operating littoralnikov, requested a new normal frigate. Some American admirals even offered to urgently bring back into the fleet the previously withdrawn OHPs (those that remained unsold and not transferred). smile
    3. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 27
      +1
      Particularly amused was the electric course, which had no analogues, when the carriage and the cart were analogous. Now almost every frigate corvette is built according to this scheme. So you can ensure relative low noise and search for boats on the go.


      Not at 20386. On this miracle, instead of low-speed engines working on a valolin line, like those of the same Britons, they made hummers at 1800 rpm, which work on a reduction gear. The result - a low-noise stroke is not possible in principle, but then there is the whole harness of electric movement, the same frequency converters, for example. And diesel generators, of course.

      Well, towing a gas engine with such motors is not a fact that it can, which means it will have to go under the turbines, which means that electric movement is a thing in itself.

      Although all the drawbacks of electric movement in this miracle ship are, that's all.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 September 2019 12: 49
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        made hummers at 1800 rpm, which work on a reduction gear. The result - a low-noise stroke is not possible in principle, but then there is the whole harness of electric movement, the same frequency converters, for example. And diesel generators, of course.

        yes, everything is clear on the velocity spectrum diagram
        wander slowly and sadly on the buzzers on the 10 nodes ...
  8. vic02
    vic02 16 September 2019 09: 43
    +10
    "The features of the new corvette in relation to the corvettes 20380/20385 are the compromise composition of weapons (stronger than in 20380, but weaker than in 20385)" And this despite the fact that "the price of one corvette of project 20386 is almost twice the price of corvettes of project 20380 / 20385, as well as frigates of project 11356 and is very close to the price of a frigate of project 22350, to which the corvette is significantly inferior in its combat capabilities "
    Why is such a miracle necessary?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2019 10: 25
      +7
      The price of the 20386 corvette is quite comparable to 20385 - when they are compared, they forget to add inflation to the difference in bookmark terms. Despite the fact that 20386 may have certain advantages, at least at the expense of another EI, the electric motor is clearly quieter than a diesel engine, for example
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 September 2019 11: 08
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The price of the 20386 corvette is quite comparable to 20385 - when they are compared, they forget to add inflation to the difference in bookmark terms. Despite the fact that 20386 may have certain advantages, at least at the expense of another EI, the electric motor is clearly quieter than a diesel engine, for example

        fool
        1.the price of 20386 in the media is DECREASED (because this is only a "piece" of CB)
        2. The conditions for using the "seemingly the same" radar on 20385 are much better (for obvious reasons)
        3. The sense of HED as from a goat of milk (and this is already OFFICIOSIS - the spectrum of speeds of the "newest" KORYTA pr.20386 published belay ), because on a normal SEARCH move (with the Minotaur) one hell will have to get up under the pipe
        4. Armament is simply a catastrophic loss even from 20385 (and here from 4 additional cells of VPU SAM missiles are of little use)
        5. The main thing is that the fucking cost of 20386 WAS EXCLUSIVELY EXCLUDING the creation of the necessary corvette group for the Navy.
        As a matter of fact, everything is said about this SCAM in
        https://topwar.ru/155697-korvet-20386-prodolzhenie-afery.html
        EXTREMELY - so much so that there were no adequate objections to the article, only a heart-rending screech and efforts to prevent this article from coming out (they should have appeared in another media, but they were removed from the issue at the very last moment)
        1. Vadmir
          Vadmir 16 September 2019 16: 45
          0
          for on a normal SEARCH move
          How much is this? According to the assurances of the developers, he keeps 18 nodes on electric motors. And then, the search move depends on the circumstances and the ship. On the IPC, the search move is generally 0. Squadron speed now, when they do not go without tugboats, obviously lower than 18 nodes.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 September 2019 10: 56
            +2
            Quote: Vadmir
            How much is this? According to the assurances of the developers, he keeps 18 nodes on electric motors. And then, the search move depends on the circumstances and the ship. On the IPC, the search move is generally 0. Squadron speed now, when they do not go without tugboats, obviously lower than 18 nodes.

            unlike the nonsense of the accomplices of this scam on the "zomboyaschik", in "Shipbuilding" and "Morvestnik" officials in a series of articles on the power plant provided a REAL speed spectrum 20386
            - and this is "complete PE"
          2. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 29
            +1
            Firstly, most likely it does not hold 18 nodes, and most importantly, on electric motors of such power it is impossible to tow a GAS with such speed.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 September 2019 12: 49
              +1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              on electric motors of such power it is impossible to tow a gas with such speed.

              without Bugas there will be no such speed and close ...
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2019 17: 41
          +1
          Quote: Fizik M
          fool

          Come in, Maxim. Glad to see you:)
          Quote: Fizik M
          As a matter of fact, everything is said about this SCAM in
          https://topwar.ru/155697-korvet-20386-prodolzhenie-afery.html
          EXCLUSIVELY - so much so that there were no adequate objections to the article

          As for adequate objections - maybe there weren’t, I didn’t read the whole discussion thread. But - a small correction. There are enough adequate objections to your article - I just didn’t start arranging a holivar about your point of view on the 20386 corvette.
          In general, the only EXCLUSIVE conclusion from this article is that you are so addicted to the 20386 corvette that you are not shy about openly distorting the information. Here is an example - a quote from your article:
          The huge price of the 20386 project. The construction cost of the main one is known - more than 29 billion rubles, which is 70% more expensive than the serial corvette of the 20380 project.

          So this is your statement is already misleading readers. Just because 20386 is on 70 (more precisely, on 68%) of the 20380 corvette, which was laid two years earlier

          Everything would be fine, but the difference in 2 of the year between 2014 and 2016 is more than 25% of inflation - even according to official figures. This is the time. Next you write
          The indicated value of the corvette of the 20386 project is taken from the annual report of JSC Severnaya Verf. Given the fact that the development work of the 20386 project is carried out by Almaz CMCB, it is obvious that the real value of the head corvette of the 20386 project is much higher than the figure in the report of the Severnaya Verf Shipyard in 29 billion rubles.

          So this, to put it mildly, again only partially corresponds to reality. Firstly, because without having RKM Severnaya Verf in your hands, you cannot say what exactly was included in the cost of 29 billion plus a tail, and secondly, because you are not even making an attempt to estimate the similar costs of creating the head 20380 "Guarding".
          That is, in fact, your evidence of the 20386 ultra-high price is justified by the fact that you:
          1) Ignore the inflation factor - and this is up to 25% of the cost
          2) Remember the third-party OCD for 20386 but "forget" about those for 20380
          3) Do not say a word about the features of military pricing. For example, such that the profitability of a serial order falls from product to product, because once agreed upon the price of the product, the military will only raise it to the level of official inflation. And it is usually lower than the real one, which is why the cost of the ship / rocket and anything else can fall to cost and lower.
          At the same time, 20386 is a new product, so the price for it is being set for the first time and it is quite possible that the plant has "slightly inflated" the profit margin. In general, in military affairs, it is NOT possible to compare the price of a serial product produced since 2003 (the first serial 20380) and the head product in 2016. And you must know this.
          Maxim, I know about the modern fleet 3 orders of magnitude less than yours. But in certain matters I am still competent enough. And I, for example, know perfectly well that it is very difficult to judge the comparative cost of even serial ships of different projects and one year of laying, and even having a full set of RCMs on hand. So if you would have issued your guesses about the comparative value as "IMHO", that is, perhaps the correct opinion of the author, everything would be fine. But you give it as Truth In the Last Instance. Moreover, if my memory serves me, you have the experience of both a naval officer and a military-industrial complex worker. And this speaks either of incompetence or partiality. I can't blame you for your incompetence, so ...
          Accordingly, there are a lot of questions regarding your other theses.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2019 17: 56
            +2
            Quote: Fizik M
            The sense of the HED is like a goat of milk (and this is already OFFICIOSIS - the spectrum of speeds of the "newest" PR 20386 published belay), because for a normal SEARCH course (with the Minotaur) one hell will have to get up under the pipe

            HERE, I don't know how to comment at all. Because the origin of the term "normal search move" for a corvette is completely unclear. As far as I know, towing speed depends on a lot of things, including jamming conditions and towing depth. But, let's say I'm wrong around.
            There is only a self-evident fact - even if 20386 AT ALL could not drag a towed antenna on electric propulsion, its ability to move economically under low-noise electric motors already represents a rather serious advantage over 20380 corvettes.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 16
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              HERE, I don't know how to comment at all. Because the origin of the term "normal search move" for a corvette is completely unclear.

              think first and then comment
              an insider from the Pacific Fleet wrote very well about the "moves on which 20380 are assigned to live" (and on which they walk VERY well
              And the "normal search move" is the PROVIDING THE BIGGEST SEARCH PRODUCTIVITY, and this is quite obvious
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              There’s only a self-evident fact - even if 20386 AT ALL couldn’t drag a towed antenna on electric motion,

              and he doesn’t need it
              because the electric movement in 20386 "hatched" after it turned out very well with Lakes on "Ocean" (but there it is needed for LONG PATROLING)
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              under low-noise electric motors, it already represents a rather serious advantage over 20380 corvettes.

              YOU, before GORGING STUFF about the "low noise" scheme of the power plant 20386, look;)
              and compare with how it was done on NORMAL ships with a REALLY LOW-NOISE electric drive (where DIRECT drive from HED to GV, and not through the REDUCER as "injected" on 20386)
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 September 2019 18: 06
                0
                Quote: Fizik M
                think first and then comment

                Maxim, do you seriously think that you can take me with a "sip"? :)))) Naive captain of the 3rd rank :)))
                Quote: Fizik M
                YOU, before GORGING STUFF about the "low noise" scheme of the power plant 20386, look;)
                and compare with how this is done on NORMAL ships with a REALLY QUIET electric drive

                And let's not flush from one question to another. Because we are not comparing the 20386 with a mythical ship with a REALLY SILENT electric drive, but with the 20380 corvette, on which, if you remember, there is a diesel engine. And hence the question - how can you prove that
                Quote: Fizik M
                REDUCER as "injected" on 20386

                noisier than an 20380 diesel?
                Quote: Fizik M
                And the "normal search move" is the PROVIDING THE BIGGEST SEARCH PRODUCTIVITY, and this is quite obvious

                Uh-huh. And the greatest search performance depends on the immersion depth of the antenna and the specific conditions of the search area, for which the speed is selected, right? That is, the "normal search move" is a variable rather than a constant value?
                Oh, yes, Maxim, I completely forgot. You wrote
                Quote: Fizik M
                for on a normal SEARCH move (with the Minotaur) one hell will have to get up under the pipe

                Maybe at the same time you can already tell which is less noisy - the 20386 turbine or the 20380 diesel engines with an equal "search stroke"?
                And yes, I did not see any reasoned proof of the thesis that a towed antenna is not needed at relatively low speeds (economic progress)
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 17 September 2019 18: 44
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  we compare 20386 not with a mythical ship with a REALLY QUIET electric drive, but with an 20380 corvette, on which, if you remember, there is a diesel engine.

                  LOOKING FOR BOATS DIESEL DOES NOT DISTURB
                  PM
                  for BUGAS is ACTIVE-passive
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  noisier than an 20380 diesel?

                  again - it does not play Roles! because he has an ACTIVE-passive GUS !!!
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And the highest search performance depends on the immersion depth of the antenna and the specific conditions of the search area, for which the speed is selected, right? That is, the "normal search move" is a variable rather than a constant value?

                  NO this value is close to the constant
                  because the length of the cable cable (its resistance) is a "penny" against the background of the body resistance
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Maybe at the same time you can already tell which is less noisy - the 20386 turbine or the 20380 diesel engines with an equal "search stroke"?

                  and this is "how to do"
                  but ONCE AGAIN:
                  BUGAS ACTIVE-passive
                  and to her the question of this difference does not really matter
                  but what it has is the presence of an OPTIMALLY DISTRIBUTED number of carriers in the region for mutual overlapping of shadow zones by light zones - i.e. need QUANTITY! - which 20386 DOESN’T ENCOURAGE!
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And yes, I did not see any reasoned proof of the thesis that a towed antenna is not needed at relatively low speeds (economic progress)

                  Have you done math in school?
                  Calculate S = VxTxP (where P is the survey band) in the state?
                  Despite the fact that up to large moves P very little depends on the speed of the carrier!
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 September 2019 19: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Fizik M
                    again - it does not play Roles! because he has an ACTIVE-passive GUS !!!

                    Maxim, do not torment the caps. Instead, think for a second what you are writing.
                    That is, in your opinion, the noise of the ship searching for submarines does not play any role? Here is none at all? :)))) And our "Pikes", which, according to your words, lose in noise to "Elks", it turns out, do not have any damage from this in a duel situation? I understand polemical ardor and all that, but I did not expect to hear this even from a schoolboy.
                    Quote: Fizik M
                    Despite the fact that up to large moves P very little depends on the speed of the carrier!

                    Yeah - if you scare everyone away, working in active location mode. But who would do it, and why?
                    1. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 19 September 2019 13: 57
                      +1
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      That is, in your opinion, the noise of the ship searching for submarines does not play any role? Here is none at all? :)))) And our "Pikes", which, according to your words, lose in noise to "Elks", it turns out, do not have any damage from this in a duel situation?

                      fool
                      DO YOU understand the DIFFERENCE between a surface ship and a submarine at all? Or just "pretend wassat "
                      as for the invoice, then:
                      1. In the overwhelming majority of cases (for us, in the West "there are nuances"), the submarine has a PREVENTION in detecting NK.
                      2. The efficiency of the PASSIVE means of NC is rather low (but there are "some nuances"), therefore, the BASIC search mode for submarines and NCs is ACTIVE (and the Dobn of its active GAS is much higher than the Dbn of its noise).
                      3. Under these conditions, for detecting a GAS NK of underwater targets, only the NK RUNNING INTERFERENCE influences, and if it is low enough (and for 20380 it is so !, but for 22800 - there are very serious nuances), but the noise of the NK does not really matter for efficiency search.
                      4. The main "working tool" of the corvettes is the "Minotaur", and you can't "run around" with it, ie. in combat conditions there is no sense from 30 knots 20386, for he is "blind" to them.
                      5. It is more than enough to carry the "Minotaur" with a SIMPLE DIESEL GEM, and there is not much sense in the Innovative electric propulsion here (the increase in efficiency is "a penny", but the loss of speed in the search is "losses for rubles")
                      6. But what is really extremely important for the search is the presence of DISTRIBUTED "SENSORS" and their carriers - stupidly due to the "zonal structure" (in most cases) of the acoustic field - to ensure a large REAL control zone and mutual overlap of the "shadow" zones some carriers, lighting zones of others. Those. NEED MASSIVE SERIES OF EFFICIENT SHIPS (not Innovative crap saws like 20386)
                      7. Pikes (671RTM) lose not only to "los" but also to older "sturgeons" (in one of the documents, the acoustics' assessment "Sturgeon is subjectively perceived by ear as a well-muted RTM"
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2019 17: 54
                        -1
                        Great explanation, thanks.
                        There is nothing left - to prove that Dobn noises 20386, going on electric motion above Dobn Minotaurs in passive mode. Only here is your usual "I swear by my mom!" (he has a reducer! Aaaaa !!!!!) will not work - after our last conversation, you have not a penny of faith.
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        The main "working tool" of the corvettes is the "Minotaur", and you can't "run around" with it, i.e. in combat conditions, there is no sense from 30 knots 20386, for he is "blind" to them.

                        This is a bit untrue, because high speed allows you to respond faster - for example, go to the area of ​​detection of enemy submarines
                      2. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 September 2019 18: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        substantiate that Dobn noises 20386, going on electric motion above Dobn Minotaurs in passive mode. Only here is your usual "I swear by my mom!" (he has a reducer! Aaaaa !!!!!) will not work - after our last conversation, you have not a penny of faith.

                        Monsieur, YOU HAVE FINALLY LOSED
                        no need to ascribe to me your nonsense and nonsense
                        I CLEAR AND IN RUSSIAN WRITTEN that the Minotaur has the main mode of operation ACTIVE-passive
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is a little false

                        YOU LIE AS usual
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        go to the detection area of ​​the enemy submarine

                        is that a "torpedo in the face" to get it BLINDLY?
                        apparently in your training manual the fact that planes fly faster than ships is not written
          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 11
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There are enough adequate objections to your article

            in this case, it will not be difficult for you to bring them
            waitingC
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The exhaustive conclusion from this article is that you are so addicted to the 20386 corvette that you feel free to openly distort information

            1. This phrase is Timokhin, but I AGREE with her.
            2. But I agree because the ESSENCE it reflects accurately, or rather, inaccurate - because everything is MUCH WORSE (for 20386).
            3. PARTICULARLY - YOU LIE. The fact that since 20386 the Navy has been left with a "naked .opa" in the face of a real military danger is FACT. And I repeat once again - there were no imputed objections to this
            4. Well, the FACT that YOU "have abruptly changed the subject" (exactly after calls from "Konashi village" "in the direction of" Klimov, Timokhin, and "someone from Chelyabinsk") seems to be hinting. And specifically so hints. For example, I clearly see that someone began to receive "buns" that were offered to me too - so that I would "change my anger to mercy" to the kindness that is now going on with the fleet.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So this is your statement is already misleading readers. Just because 20386 is on 70 (more precisely, on 68%) of the 20380 corvette, which was laid two years earlier

            NO, everything is for sure
            More precisely - EVEN WORSE.
            For according to 20386, the price tag is not full ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Firstly, because without the RCM of the North Shipyard, it’s impossible to say what exactly went into the cost of 29 billion with a tail

            LIE
            For the FACT is that the SV CONTRACTOR of "Almaz". And financing goes through Almaz.
            The conclusions from this FACT are obvious.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            1) Ignore the inflation factor - and this is up to 25% of the cost

            No, there are completely different numbers.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            3) Do not say a word about the features of military pricing. For example, such that the profitability of a serial order falls from product to product, because once agreed upon the price of the product, the military will only raise it to the level of official inflation. And it is usually lower than the real one, which is why the cost of the ship / rocket and anything else can fall to cost and lower.

            let's not lie in a lie you will not ...
            Rakhmanov announced the% margin, moreover, this figure is for SV (with all its fornication and "financial holes")
            Well, with the "peculiarities of military pricing," I am, to put it mildly, I KNOW.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In general, in military affairs it is NOT possible to compare the price of a serial product manufactured with 2003 g (the first serial 20380) and the head product 2016 g bookmarks. And you cannot but know this.

            those. compare Khzachem the desired 20386 with the serial 22350 (which covers it as it was a sheep) YOU "knees trembled"
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So if you would have issued your guesses about the comparative value as "IMHO", that is, perhaps the correct opinion of the author, everything would be fine. But you give it as Truth In Last Instance.

            because it is a fact
            and in the article I can only say what you can refer to
            the fact that the price tag for 20386 is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than that indicated for ST is precisely a FACT for the above reasons
            As well as the fact that the very concept of 20386 is simply ROTTED (how "his TTZ was born" - look at the Balancer (the link in my article is given), and this is also a FACT)
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I cannot blame you for incompetence, so ...

            Andrew!
            I would say a lot of AAAA (very rotten and deceitful).
            So now please BBBB - to bring precisely the FACTS and ARGUMENTS for this TORCH of the 20386 project.
            ZHDEMS
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 September 2019 17: 55
              +1
              Quote: Fizik M
              Andrew!
              I would say a lot of AAAA (very rotten and deceitful).
              So now please BBBB

              Maxim, what is the point for me to say "BBBB" if you could not give any adequate answer to my "AAAA"? I wrote that it is impossible to compare corvettes 20380 and 20386 head on, because they were laid in 2014 and 2016, respectively, and that
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Everything would be fine, but the difference in 2 of the year between 2014 and 2016 is more than 25% of inflation - even according to official figures.

              What did you answer?
              Quote: Fizik M
              No, there are completely different numbers.

              And where are these "other numbers"? Meanwhile, it's enough not even to climb the Rosstat website, but to look here https://ria.ru/20150112/1042216490.html and here https://rg.ru/2016/01/12/inflyaciya-site.html or just go to the inflation rate.rf to see the inflation rates in 2014 - 2015 - these are 11,36 and 12,91%, respectively. Taking into account the fact that inflation is calculated in relation to the previous year, the overall inflation rate for these two years will just exceed 25%.
              There were no objections in essence from you. Next. I said you
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Remember third-party OCD for 20386 but "forget" about those for 20380

              And what could you answer me? All that was enough for you:
              Quote: Fizik M
              by 20386 the price tag daAaleko not complete ...

              Maybe, of course, not complete. But I said something else - remembering about the possible incompleteness of the 20386 price tag, you weren’t puzzled by the completeness of the price tag of the serial 20380. You write
              Quote: Fizik M
              The FACT is that the SV CONTRACTOR "Almaz". And financing goes through Almaz.
              The conclusions from this FACT are obvious.

              They are not at all obvious for one simple reason. That OCD on the 20386 project went in Diamond, you remember. You preferred to forget that the 20380 project was CREATED EXACTLY by THE SAME DIAMOND. That is, both 20380 and 20386 have the same birth pattern, but at the same time you waved your hand at the costs that Diamond incurred on the 20380 corvettes, but persistently shove the costs of Diamond on the 20386 corvettes of the project Mercury.
              Maxim, well, who are you after that? Extremely incompetent, or extremely partial person?
              Next, I wrote
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Do not say a word about the features of military pricing. For example, such that the profitability of a serial order falls from product to product, because once agreed upon the price of the product, the military will only raise it to the level of official inflation. And it is usually lower than the real one, which is why the cost of the ship / rocket and anything else can fall to cost and lower.

              And what do I hear in response?
              Quote: Fizik M
              let's not lie in a lie you will not ...
              Rakhmanov announced the% margin, moreover, this figure is for SV (with all its fornication and "financial holes")

              So, Maxim, you, as a person related to the state defense order, are simply obligated to know that the numbers voiced by Rakhmanov or any other persons on 20380-20386 are air. Because margin / profit is determined in RCM to the contract. And they, these RCMs, will be drafted by law, and the margin stipulated by law (or rather, profit) will be mandatory there. Another question is that the military representative simply DOES NOT show the entire cost of serial production, they allow price increases only within the official ratios, which are usually lower and much lower than real inflation. As a result, there will be profit in the contract, of course, but taking into account the fact that the company simply will not be allowed to plan / write off the costs of the contract in full, this serial margin may not be present, and in any case it will decrease.
              And the fact that you are now waving Rakhmanov’s margin just indicates either your incompetence or partiality. Anyone who has had at least minimal relevance to pricing SDOs will understand me in this.
              So, in essence of the questions I raised, you could not answer anything. So what is the point for me to say BBBB when you and my AAAA were buried by the top of their head? You essentially fell into the usual hysteria and are trying to jump now from uncomfortable questions for you. I especially liked this
              Quote: Fizik M
              Well, the FACT that YOU "dramatically changed the subject" (exactly after the calls from "Konashi village" "in the direction of" Klimov, Timokhin, and "someone from Chelyabinsk") seems to be hinting. And specifically so hints. For example, I clearly see that someone started to receive "buns" that were offered to me

              Is this a hint that someone bought me? :)))) Alas, no. And I really wanted, you know, to ride kids on their own Rolls-Royce in the Bahamas there, or the Maldives laughing
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 September 2019 18: 36
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I wrote that it is impossible to compare 20380 and 20386 corvettes on the forehead because they were laid in 2014 and 2016 respectively, and that

                Yes, you really can’t believe it like a snake under a fork;)
                for the question of comparing the prices of 20380 and 20386 does not go at all so they are disproportionate
                and compare (and fucking with this comparison) need 20386 and 22350 - t. for the price tag they are in "the same weight category"!
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And taking into account the fact that inflation is calculated in relation to the previous year, the overall inflation rate over these two years will just exceed 25%.

                well, if you take prices for defense industry products from the "shelves in the grocery store" - tady oh lol
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                There were no objections in essence from you

                YOU at school were told that PART LESS THAN WHOLE? Or YOU are not "aware" of this?
                For stubbornly do not want to see the fact that the indicated price tag (in the CB report) on 20386 is PART!
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But I said something else - remembering about the possible incompleteness of the 20386 price tag, you weren’t puzzled by the completeness of the price tag of the serial 20380.

                ONCE AGAIN - what Timokhin already said above YOU:
                1. Disadvantages of 20380 can be eliminated within the FRAMEWORK OF THE SERIES (including the REFINING of the first buildings), and this is exactly what you need to do! This is how the same Americans "drive" a series of "Berks" !!!
                2. No one needs XER in 20386 except for a group of SCAMS, but for the Navy this is generally CONSCIOUS Sabotage!
                3. I have an idea of ​​the "sane price tags" in the court industry, and I can responsibly say that for "little money" the combat effectiveness of 20380 can grow DIFFERENTLY, but this "nobody needs", because you need to "cut the loot" on a new project!
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                That is, both 20380 and 20386 have the same birth pattern, but at the same time you waved your hand at the costs that Diamond incurred on the 20380 corvettes, but persistently shove the costs of Diamond on the 20386 corvettes of the project Mercury.

                LIES!
                For there is a PRINCIPAL difference! 20380 was "hung" with new ROC.
                Unlike SCAM from 20386 - where they "sawed" on "ship architecture" (and work on 203 was frankly small - even with ED it was done according to an openly poor and "deshman" version!)
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Maxim, well, who are you after that? Extremely incompetent, or extremely partial person?

                WHO YOU - it is clear - a LIAR, and obviously a "charged" LIAR!
                For obviously Ignore the facts:
                1. The meaninglessness of the "new project" itself
                2. Extremely weak weapons 20386
                3. Its extremely high cost (almost equal to 22350, disproportionately more powerful)
                4. The fact that even Zakharov (!!!) writes one thing in his book, but "cuts" something completely different
                5. The fact that vEmEfe simply "hammered a bolt" to eliminate the most critical shortcomings of corvettes (lack of PLUR for 20386 (and 20386 with a vert) and RK SAM)
                I can continue the list of questions, and YOU are so kind as to answer at least FOR ONE OF THEM (and not to run from them like lousy from a bath).
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Because margin / profit is determined in RCM to the contract.

                Do not smash her nonsense! You have no idea what you are trying to judge!
                RCM is generally "preliminary" figures for the contract, and what will happen in the end is a completely separate question!
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Anyone with at least minimal relevance to pricing SDOs will understand me.

                YOU are carrying this nonsense yourself, or are you "advised over the shoulder"?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This is a hint that me

                I don't care
                1. karabass
                  karabass 17 September 2019 20: 45
                  +2
                  Good evening Fizik M! It is very interesting to read your disputes with Andrei from Chelyabinsk and Alexander Timokhin. It is because of these disputes that I love VO - it captures! And I can’t help it, I really want to correct something essentially, which already itches, but in this case I’m not a boom - a boom. I’ll come from the other side - what difference does it make which ship is better, which is worse! They do not fight with America! Sailors serve the Motherland, obey the orders of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, receive a salary, go along the seas - go along the waves! Well, okay! Shipyards work quietly, they comprehend design bureaus, managers master, birds sing, constitutional order is not violated, nerve cells are not restored, the weather is good ...
                  Best regards
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 17 September 2019 21: 17
                    +1
                    Quote: karabass
                    It is very interesting to read your disputes with Andrei from Chelyabinsk

                    this is not with "Andrey Chelyabinsk", but with "konash" lol
                    The FACTS are such that "there" at the end of last year showed "increased interest" to Andrei (I know this for sure), at the same time the subject matter of ACh's articles is dramatically changing, and now he was apparently "very much asked" to suffer for konashi " laughing
                    + went a series of clearly "charged articles" (of which not only "ears" are sharpened, but also a very recognizable style some "major experts" wassat with xnumx gaps on uniform lol )
                    + more "interesting facts"
                    so "if something very similar to a duck swims like a duck, quacks like a duck", then it is most likely really a "duck" laughing
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 September 2019 16: 49
                      +1
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      The FACTS are such that "there" at the end of last year showed "increased interest" to Andrei (I know this for sure), at the same time the subject matter of ACh's articles is dramatically changing, and now he was apparently "very much asked" to suffer for konashi "

                      By the way, who are these konashas?
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 September 2019 13: 45
                        +1
                        don't pretend wink
                        ALL YOU understood, and even wrote not "what" but WHO laughing
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2019 17: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        don't pretend to be a wink
                        ALL YOU understood, and even wrote not "what" but WHO

                        Maxim, are you out of your mind? :)))) In response to the phrase
                        Quote: karabass
                        It is very interesting to read your disputes with Andrei from Chelyabinsk and Alexander Timokhin.

                        You wrote
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        this is not with "Andrey Chelyabinsk", but with "konash"

                        On the basis of which any sane person will conclude that "konashi" are WHO, not WHAT, and that there are more than one of them :))) Accordingly, I asked
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        By the way, who are these konashas?

                        And it turned out that I am their agent :))))))
                        Maxim, your mistake is understandable and even excusable. The problem is different - as I see, your argumentation on issues related to 20386 you suck from the same finger as my mythical connection with "konash"
                      3. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 September 2019 17: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Maxim, your mistake

                        Yes, I have a mistake ("konashi") or not
                        I was taught that "the first to notice ... an explosion, a fire, ... dangerous concentrations of gases ... must immediately voice an emergency alarm in the compartment, with an immediate report to the central control unit, and if impossible, to the adjacent or other compartments" (to understand - THEN already)
                        The facts are that:
                        1. From "konasha" YOU were interested (and very much interested) - and I have infa, as they say, "first-hand".
                        2. At the same time, YOU "subject matter is changing dramatically"
                        3. As for the last comments, YOU are just stupid, and despite the fact that YOU are simply "smeared" in the comments, you are trying to "drown" for the villains.
                        After that, the "details" are no longer interesting ...
                      4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2019 18: 07
                        +2
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        3. As for the last comments, YOU are just stupid, and despite the fact that YOU are simply "smeared"

                        laughing good
                        Yes Yes. Already smeared so smeared :))))
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        in the comments trying to "drown" for the villains.

                        :))))))))))) Oh, I can not :))))) The thing is that ...
                        No, I will not anticipate :)))
                      5. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 September 2019 18: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Already smeared so smeared :))))

                        Yes exactly
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Oh, I can’t :))))) The thing is that ...

                        "everyone understood everything"
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 September 2019 16: 46
                  0
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  Yes, you really can’t believe it like a snake under a fork;)
                  for the question of comparing the prices of 20380 and 20386 does not go at all so they are disproportionate

                  M-d? No, Maxim, it’s still going on, and coming from you, since it is you who are comparing the prices of these two ships. You did this in your article, and you just wrote
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  1. This phrase is Timokhin, but I AGREE with her.
                  2. But I agree because the ESSENCE it reflects accurately, or rather, inaccurate - because everything is MUCH WORSE (for 20386).

                  Maxim, well, seriously, what's the point in denying the obvious? You yourself signed under Timokhin's phrase that the 20386 corvette is 70% more expensive than the 20380 and even "even worse." Through the comment - "oh, I'm not me, and I didn't say that."
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  well, if you take prices for defense industry products from the "shelves in the grocery store" - tady oh

                  Clear :))) That is, even by the links given to you, you could not figure out that we are talking about the general level of inflation, and not about food products. I am not at all surprised.
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  LIES!

                  As usual, the loudest shouts "Stop thief!" the thief himself :)
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  For there is a PRINCIPAL difference! 20380 was "hung" with new ROC.
                  Unlike SCAM from 20386 - where they "sawed" on "ship architecture" (and the work on 203 was frankly small

                  That is, you just admitted that 20380 had a bunch of new technologies that were implemented and paid for, but which, of course, were not included in the price of the serial product.
                  Maxim, maybe you are right, of course, about the cut on architecture - I don't know, I didn't stand there with a candle. But the fact is that when the OCD is taken into account as part of the serial 20380, its cost will be much higher than those more than 17 million - and you "forgot" to mention this in your article. And you could not fail to understand this. So which of us is a liar after that? :)
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  WHO YOU - it is clear - a LIAR, and obviously a "charged" LIAR!
                  For obviously Ignore the facts:

                  No, Maxim, it’s you ignoring the facts that I (and you yourself) have just proved by the example of your lies about the comparative price of 20380 and 20386.
                  And as for the rest of the above, you are right in some ways, not in some ways, but the point is that our conversation began precisely from the fact that, upon seeing my remark that the price of 20380 and 20386 corvettes is quite comparable exploded and splattered my shoes with an unappetizing substance. I explained the whole depth of your wrongness, and explaining your other mistakes in the article to you is not included in my plans - at least in the comment format
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 19 September 2019 14: 11
                    -1
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    You yourself signed up under Timokhin's phrase that the 20386 corvette is 70% more expensive than the 20380 and even "even worse." Through the comment - "oh, I'm not me, and I didn't say that."

                    YOU absolutely fool ??
                    I ALL IN RUSSIAN, CLEARLY AND UNDERSTAND WRITTEN:
                    - phrase Timokhin
                    - I agree with her, because the "price tag" is still WORSE (but without links "for the media")
                    What's not clear?
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    That is, even from the links given to you, you could not figure out that we are talking about the general level of inflation, and not about food products.

                    yes even about the prices for "cowards"
                    on pricing for the products of the defense industry complex YOU (or not YOU)
                    and the funny thing is that YOU "don't get it" that PART is less than the WHOLE laughing
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    As usual, the loudest shouts "Stop thief!" the thief himself :)

                    Monsieur, for a start, the SCREAM about "THIEF" here (above) was arranged by YOU
                    and then YOU were "taken by the collar" and simply "smeared" by showing exhaustively who is lying here
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Maxim, maybe you are right, of course, about the cut on architecture - I don't know, I didn't stand there with a candle. But the fact is that when the OCD is taken into account as part of the serial 20380, its cost will be much higher than those more than 17 million - and you "forgot" to mention this in your article. And you could not fail to understand this. So which of us is a liar after that? :)

                    LIAR YOU, and it has been convincingly shown
                    THE TASKS of the Navy - COMBAT and not "architecture" and not "drank"
                    for BATTLE tasks a SCAM with 20386 is an OBVIOUS and CLEAR STEP BACK - 20386 is actually a TAMPER and A DELIBERATED NAVIGATION
                    (I repeat again - two KEY flaws 20380 on 20386 did not even "scratch" to eliminate)
                    And there is no need for Andryusha (and Co) to pretend that you (you) "like you don't understand anything."
                    For OCD (about which you "bounce") at DIAMOND, but the "price tag" lit up in the media - at the SV - where sheets are stupidly cut and welded on a new one, they put up stands of complexes and sip on cables (and then they will paint all this), and here the actual OKR works - "a penny".
                    And yet, you wipe your "splashes" and, if you please, answer the VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS previously asked to you here on 20386 (from which you (and your "suppliers of manuals" with "konasha") spin like "horrors under the fork")
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2019 17: 39
                      0
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      Monsieur, for a start, the SCREAM about "THIEF" here (above) was arranged by YOU

                      Nope. I just talked about the comparability of prices for 20380 and 20386 :)))) But the fact that you regarded it this way is very symptomatic, like our whole further discussion.
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      LIAR YOU, and it has been convincingly shown

                      Well, let the readers decide :)
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      For OCD (about which you "bounce") at DIAMOND, but the "price tag" lit up in the media - at the SV - where sheets are stupidly cut and welded on a new one, they put up stands of complexes and sip on cables (and then they will paint all this), and here the actual OKR works - "a penny".

                      Maxim, excuses look extremely sorry. First, you think about 20386 OCD, but keep quiet about the amount of 20380 OCD, then in the heat of the discussion we let it slip, and now you are trying to jump off the question by saying that 20380 is real, and 20386 is dumb.
                      I’m wondering when you finally turn on your gray matter, and realize that in the case you described most of the OCD on 20386 should NOT be extended to the cost of construction, because it was not the cost of creating the corvette, but the corruption component. That is, the real cost of 20386 will not increase much, but the cost of serial 20380, taking into account real (in your own words) OCD, will grow even more than I described. So - the price difference between 20386 and 20380 is even smaller than I expected :)
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 September 2019 17: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I just talked about the comparability of prices for 20380 and 20386

                        fool
                        YOU THIS TRESH wassat "something" is able to "justify"? lol
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Maxim, excuses look extremely sorry. First you think of the OCD 20386 but keep quiet about the amount of the OCD 20380,

                        Monsieur, did you mislead anything?!?!
                        on the amounts for ROC 20386, there was no talk at all, there "while" "just" "they swallow validol" (especially given their debt load)
                        and the FACT is that from even a SMALL part (work of SV) to 20386, the public "quietly fucking" belay
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and now trying to jump from the question

                        Monsieur, so from YOU the answers to simple questions WILL BE? or are YOU "capable" only of LIE and SCREAM?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        they say that at 20380 this is real, and at 20386 it’s a puff.

                        and what - is that not so?!?!?!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I’m wondering when will you finally turn on your gray matter, and realize that in the case described by you most of the OCD on 20386 DO NOT need to be extended to the cost of construction,

                        Monsieur, if you bring the cost of OCD CRASH to 20386 - the public will simply "tear" from such a SAW
                        YOU ... "it looks like something is warming"

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, the real value of 20386 will not increase much

                        fool
                        YOU absolutely fool or YOU have this nonsense wassat "just in the manual" is written?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        here is the cost of serial 20380 taking into account real (from your own words) OCD

                        Monsieur, DO YOU represent the difference between GOST 203 (OKR) and ADDITIONS (GOST 307)? or "they didn't write about it in the manual?" and YOU are just stupidly "PAINT CUSTOM BALAIKA"
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2019 18: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        Are you able to "substantiate" this TRASH wassat?

                        I justified it, and you could not refute this with anything. Well, except for the cry "vyvsevriti!"
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        Monsieur, did you mislead anything?!?!
                        by the sums for OCD 20386 there was no discussion at all,

                        Go crazy :)))) This is just some medical case. Maxim, I once again quote your article where you write about OCD and your comments, where do you write about them? :)))
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        Monsieur, so from YOU answers to simple questions WILL be?

                        Alas, but you are so divorced from common sense that you do not understand - you ask the wrong questions. You should have asked me ONLY ONE question - and everything would have become clear right away :)))) But you didn’t ask him, which prettyly amused him, and you continue to amuse me.
                        And I could answer your questions, of course ... and I will definitely do it. I believe that for all your insults I got a little satisfaction hi
                      3. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 September 2019 18: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I justified it, and you could not refute this with anything. Well, except for the cry "vyvsevriti!"

                        Andryusha (and Co.), you are completely there fool
                        Can you bring your PRISON proof to this?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        once again quote your article where you write about OCD and your comments, where do you write about them? :)))

                        ONCE AGAIN - Andryusha was not told to you at school that the PART is less than the WHOLE? Huh?
                        The article was about PARTS (from the size of the "price tag" of which the people are so fucking crazy), ALL OCD - there generally "put out the light"
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You ask the wrong questions.

                        clear
                        those. simple questions about technique and tactics 20386 from which Tryapichnikov "merged" caused the same drain in "konash" (and Andryusha Ch and Co)
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I believe that for all your insults

                        with insults from Andryusha, it was YOU who began
                        and a very good question - WHY
                        and the "version" that you were "well asked" (it may well even be that "deliciously asked" - has good reasons
              2. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 September 2019 21: 22
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                these RCMs will be compiled by law, and the margin stipulated by law (or rather, profit) will be mandatory there.

                kindly request to "Andryusha and Co" - do not leave this topic
                curiously curious, what else is CREATIVE wassat will be in the next "METHODICHKA"
                so to speak "DIMK look" winked on the problem of pricing in the defense industry
                there will be a lot of "grateful readers" (moreover, "experts in the subject") laughing
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 September 2019 16: 51
                  -1
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  kindly request to "Andryusha and Co" - do not leave this topic
                  very curious, what other CREATIVE wassat will be in the next "METHODICHKA"
                  so to speak "DIMK look"

                  Maxim, my advice to you, talk with the economists of your company - I guarantee, you will learn a lot for yourself :)))
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 19 September 2019 14: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Maxim, my advice to you, talk with economists

                    Andryusha (and Co), you are your "fairy tales about the gray bull" in this part - tell ducks in the bathroom laughing
                    And I am already silent about the fact that "something" in terms of the RCM was laid out even on purchases of gov ...
          3. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 39
            +4
            Firstly, because without the RCM of the Northern Shipyard, it’s impossible to say what exactly came in the cost of 29 billion with a tail,


            Andrei, but the fact is that even without any docks in your hands, you can understand everything from the simple facts:

            1. At 20386, the tech novelty rate goes down to 70% or so. The GEM, for example, has never been created in this form, it does not exist, the RLK only partially borrows the technological groundwork from what is at 20385, plus there are "pitfalls" in the form of the need for continuous adjustment of the canvases, which some experts are already warning about.
            2. 29,6 yards is only the money of the Northern Shipyard, that is, it is its SHARE in OKR, with the novelty of the subsystems at approx.


            and secondly, because you are not even making an attempt to estimate the similar costs of creating the head 20380 "Guarding".


            And why, because they ARE ALREADY MADE, you can no longer bear these prices, but drive and drive the series. What is the question?
            In the case of 20386, everything is from the beginning. With the same weapon with 20380 and inferior 20385.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 September 2019 18: 10
              -1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              29,6 yards is only the money of the Northern Shipyard, that is, it is its SHARE in OKR, with the novelty of the subsystems at approx.

              The same thing happened with 20380
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              And why, because they ARE ALREADY MADE, you can no longer bear these prices, but drive and drive the series.

              When it was decided to create 20386, it was a serious reflection. By the way, do you know exactly what amounts were spent on developing 20386 with Diamond? And on 20380? And - most importantly - whatever costs are incurred, they are already incurred in the same way as in the case of 20380, so this can no longer affect the decision to build or not 20386
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 September 2019 18: 53
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                When it was decided to create 20386, it was a serious reflection.

                Please provide justification for this.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                By the way, do you know exactly what amounts were spent on developing 20386 with Diamond? And on 20380? And - most importantly - whatever costs are incurred, they, in the same way as in the case of 20380, are already incurred

                AGAIN - 20380 was "hung" by OCD as a "Christmas tree".
                In this regard, 20386 is a "downgrade" (take the same subtle GAS)
              2. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 20: 28
                0
                When it was decided to create 20386, it was a serious reflection.


                The personal whim of Rear Admiral Zakharov who dreamed of building a modular ship in time for his life, being integrated into the global trend.

                And - most importantly - whatever costs are incurred, they, in the same way as in the case of 20380, are already incurred


                Not everyone.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 September 2019 17: 20
                  0
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  The personal whim of Rear Admiral Zakharov who dreamed of building a modular ship in time for his life, being integrated into the global trend.

                  There is such a concept in economics - "cost relevance". The point is that when a decision was made - to modify and continue the 20380/20385 series or design a new corvette (that is, to finance R&D for 20386), the responsible persons had to think with their heads, comparing the costs of new R&D, as well as the modernization of production, with the projected cost serial ship, etc. etc. with the potential benefits that 20386 will give. This is the logic of business planning pure water - before creating a new type of ship, carry out a price / quality analysis taking into account ALL costs, for ALL activities for a new product - and with the highest possible accuracy , sure.
                  If this is not done, we have an economically ill-considered solution. For which, in fact, someone should answer. Head.
                  But in a situation where the ROC and some other preparatory measures have already been fully or partially completed, then "the train has already left" - by stopping further construction of the same 20386, these costs cannot be returned. So all that remains is to come to terms with this, to punish the guilty, but a decision on the further continuation of the project must be made without taking these costs into account.
                  I will explain with a simple example. Let's say we wanted to build a series of 4 corvettes. We have a serial ship worth 150 million dollars, and if we build them, we will spend 600 million for it. But here comes a certain genius-inventor, and offers us the corvettes of a new project with the same performance characteristics for 100 million dollars. But for this you need - just a little - to spend OCD on 1 billion dollars
                  So, a simple calculation shows that the proposal is completely unprofitable, since the total project price of 1 000 million for OCD + 400 million of the cost of the corvettes themselves = 1 400 million, and not 600 million of the option to build serial corvettes, despite the difference in performance characteristics no. But the inventor promises a rollback to the admiral who makes the decision, and he allocates a billion for OCD
                  And now, a billion has been spent on OCD, you can build new corvettes for 100 million. And then, finally, the NKVD comes in, understands the issue, puts the admiral against the wall for embezzlement. But what to do next? It makes no sense to build old serial corvettes for 150 million dollars, but you need to build new corvettes for 100 million dollars - you can’t return the billion, and so the cost of building 4 corvettes will be 400 million dollars instead of 600 million. And the whole program will cost 1 400 million and not 1 600 million
                  So, depending on the time of the decision, it may change to 180 degrees. This is called the relevance of costs - when making a decision, look only at those costs that you will have to bear in the future, and do not pay attention to what you have already ... err ... dried
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    timokhin-aa 18 September 2019 20: 35
                    +1
                    You miss the difference in the cost of the life cycle of a single ship, and the series as a whole (which will include, for example, the production of two different lines of spare parts for two types of corvettes instead of one - among other things).

                    And you also miss the fact that TsMKB "Almaz", as the main executor of the R&D project, collected credits for this project, but the ship is not working. It doesn't work anymore.
                    I did not check it on purpose, but a number of comrades "from there" are talking about the prospects of the KB bankruptcy.
                    There are also technical risks.

                    What to do, for example, if the software fails to "select" the errors from the "walking" RLC canvases?
                    Well, how can one be in such a situation?
                    And there are problems of a non-economic nature - count how many BMZ ships with anti-submarine capabilities we now have in stocks. And think about how this gap will end in the number of ships being laid.

                    There is exactly one good thing in 20386 - there are chances that he drank it up even when Putin is on his last term, and those involved will not succeed in being blamed for retirement. Our military-industrial commission has long been in need of cleaning. The failure of this cut will be a good reason to start it.
                  2. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 19 September 2019 14: 27
                    +1
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    The point is that when a decision was made - to modify and continue the 20380/20385 series or design a new corvette (that is, to finance R&D for 20386), the responsible persons had to think with their heads, comparing the costs of new R&D, as well as the modernization of production, with the projected cost serial ship, etc. etc. with the potential benefits that 20386 will give. This is the logic of business planning pure water - before creating a new type of ship, conduct a price / quality analysis taking into account ALL costs, for ALL activities for a new product - and with the highest possible accuracy , sure.

                    blah blah blah
                    "for reference" - we have never done this
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    But in a situation where the ROC and some other preparatory measures have already been fully or partially completed, then "the train has already left" - by stopping further construction of the same 20386, these costs cannot be returned.

                    ONCE AGAIN - THE CONSTRUCTION OF REMOVED "COURTS" 20386 is an INJURED UNDERSTANDING OF THE NAVY'S IMPORTANCE = CONSCIOUS SABOTAGE

                    PS
                    So what about Andryusha (and Co) with the answer to "simple questions for 20386"? Huh?
                    Tryapichinkov "not Shmog", maybe now the "konashi" (through Andryusha and Co.) will push themselves? laughing
              3. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 19 September 2019 09: 31
                0
                I will express my fry.
                - 20386 is basically miserable. Conceptually. Too complicated. It will be implemented very crookedly. I will not argue about the high cost.
                Along the way, you simply don’t understand such a moment - you need a lot of corvettes, about 30 pieces, and they were needed yesterday. During the GPV there is no such adventure in the fleet where we did not let the money go, there is not much money! The result is shit, you used to understand this apparently judging by the cycle of your articles, although you swam in a number of special issues ...
                Corvette in my understanding, this is primarily a jack of all trades for operations within the EEZ primarily. This is for brevity, to indicate the area of ​​use. To ensure deployment of submarines, escorting TR and NK.
                Summing up, the corvette is primarily the carrier of the HOOK Vignette, the rest is secondary.
                The minimum required composition of REV is Positive, Vignette, Platinum.
                Armament - 2x4 launchers (RCC Uranus / PLUR X), 6x4 launchers SAM Tor-FM, AK-176, Duet, 2x4 TA Package-NK (in human form and not perverted), RBU-6000, runway. Hangar storage of the helicopter at the current stage does not make sense. It is possible to provide a soapy hangar for 1-2 UAVs.
                The course is 24-27 knots. In / and it is unlikely that there will be more than 2500 tons.
              4. Fizik M
                Fizik M 19 September 2019 14: 22
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The same thing happened with 20380

                LIE
                because 20380 is the "final" price
                and here by 20386 it is not yet close
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                When it was decided to create 20386, it was a serious reflection.

                Monsieur, YOU still quit your "yeast in your knees" laughing and give these alleged "weighty reflections" "for 20386" laughing
                and then from YOU only a cheap SCREAM and FALSE, but from direct questions to technical and tactical "failures" for 20386 YOU run like "crap from the bath" laughing
                that "manuals with konasha were not brought up"? laughing Oh no no no laughing
                near the "Grenadier" for a long time already "pushing" something sane in this regard to "disfigure", but that's all "not Shmogut" ... wassat
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                just like in the case of 20380 already incurred, so that the decision to build or not 20386 NOW it can no longer affect

                at YOU (more precisely at YOUR owners) precisely blazes
                because if you STOP this SCAM (even stupidly writing off the money and cutting into scrap metal what has already been "naughty" in the hardware), channeling funds to 20380 (and their modernity), then the combat capability of the Navy in the part of the OCD will not just "grow", but will GROW MULTIPLY

                PS, by the way, a very good question - who pays for the composite SNSS add-on?
                I won’t say for sure, but I strongly suspect that the SNSS has an agreement on this issue (and money) not with SV but DIAMOND
            2. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 September 2019 18: 59
              +1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              At 20386, the novelty coefficient goes to 70%, or so. GEM, for example, has never been created in this form, does not exist, the radar system only partially borrows

              this is not true
              OKRovskoe loot 20386 is sawn on "architecture"
              you will laugh, but in the docks "justification" of spending is written like this "implementation of new architectural solutions" (something like this, I don't remember literally)
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 20: 33
                0
                Come on, let's immediately recall something that did not exist before - 6RP, all Zakharov's automation, all this moronic "division into functional zones" with restrictions on the movement of the crew, etc., which is supported by the design of everything from which this ship is consists, not just of the case. Or is this what you mean by architecture? Well, this is not the only idea.
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 17 September 2019 20: 38
                  0
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  let's immediately recall what did not exist before - 6RP, all Zakharov's automation, all this moronic "division into functional zones" with restrictions on the movement of the crew, etc., which is supported by the design of everything that this ship consists of, and not only hulls. Or is this what you mean by architecture?

                  in terms of complexity, this is garbage (compared to a bunch of OCD 20380)
      2. Nick
        Nick 16 September 2019 17: 14
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The price of the 20386 corvette is quite comparable to 20385 - when they are compared, they forget to add inflation to the difference in bookmark terms. Despite the fact that 20386 may have certain advantages, at least at the expense of another EI, the electric motor is clearly quieter than a diesel engine, for example

        They forget that the head one is always more expensive than the serial one, and they plan to release them each year in pieces. In addition, we must watch and weapons, because armament is a significant part of the cost of the ship.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 17
          +3
          Quote: Nick
          In addition, we must watch and weapons, because armament is a significant part of the cost of the ship.

          yes, you need to look at weapons
          because with the price tag KORYETA 20386 like the FRIGATE pr. 22350, its "armament" is WEAKER than by 20385
        2. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 40
          +1
          and they plan to release them each year.


          It’s already beyond good and evil.

          They still don't know how to make a gearbox, do you understand? In the news, the delivery in 2022, on the Star-Reducer, "we can figure out how to do this within five years."
      3. Cympak
        Cympak 16 September 2019 20: 46
        +2
        There were also figures for corvettes laid down in 2014-16: 20380 - 17 billion, 20386 - 29 billion. At the same time, admirals consider it expedient to put "Caliber" on an 800-ton ship (22800), and on a 3500-ton ship, 20386 consider which is expensive.
        I think the answer is simple, if you put "Caliber" on 20386, then the concept of "modularity" loses its meaning, and the price of a corvette approaches a frigate, a more expedient ship for our Navy.
        In addition, the corvette is located on the coast, and they are trying to send it to the distant sea zone, where there is a place for a more seaworthy and balanced frigate.
        With the 20386 project, devastation begins with a concept artificially drawn to the corvette in the form of modularity and work in the far sea zone.
        In addition, a high degree of novelty, laid down in Project 20386, can lead to a prolonged refinement of the ship and a significant shift to the right of the timing of taking the ship into service, as was the case with project 22350. And this is a blow to serial production.
        We need to develop project 20385 with new energy.
        1. Vadmir
          Vadmir 16 September 2019 21: 43
          +3
          At the same time, the admirals consider it expedient to install "Caliber" on an 800 ton ship (22800), and consider it expensive for a 3500 ton ship 20386.
          At least because the purpose of these projects is different. After the cancellation of the INF Treaty, there was no need to put the Caliber on everything that can move by sea. Soon land gauges will appear.
          For self-defense, the corvette will have enough Uraniums, its main purpose is the PLO in BMZ.
          Of course, there is an anti-submarine gauge, the question is whether the range required by the PLUR is needed, whether the SAC capabilities are enough, if not, there are enough torpedoes.
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 42
            +1
            At least because the purpose of these projects is different. After the cancellation of the INF Treaty, there was no need to put the Caliber on everything that can move by sea.


            No, the need to rivet RTOs has disappeared, but on carriers capable of "pulling out" the launch line in the DMZ Calibers are quite necessary and can be installed.
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 18
          +3
          Quote: Cympak
          With the 20386 project, devastation begins with a concept artificially drawn to the corvette in the form of modularity and work in the far sea zone.

          Exactly!!!
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 11
            0
            I’m thinking, but should I write about the story of Putin, the Sevastopol mortgage, and all the other trash that has recently been outlined around this boat? I am V.S. I wrote that I do not want to touch this topic, because a normal mentally healthy person in the present case will not be able to believe.

            Or maybe it’s worth it?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 September 2019 13: 18
              +1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Or maybe it’s worth it?

              maybe ...
              but not right now, but somewhere in a month
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 13: 21
                0
                Hehe.
                Is something outlined in the gallery? Well, remember, in a month. smile
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 17 September 2019 13: 26
                  +1
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Is something outlined in the gallery?

                  scheduled for a long time ...
                  "put the squeeze" on angry
  9. Corn
    Corn 16 September 2019 10: 20
    -2
    A magnificent ship of the modern level, there would be more of such a fleet.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 September 2019 11: 08
      +5
      Quote: Corn
      A magnificent ship of the modern level, there would be more of such a fleet.

      fool
      Tell me, did you try, at least a little, to try? lol
      1. Corn
        Corn 16 September 2019 11: 24
        +2
        And what did I write wrong?
        Are you against replenishing the Russian fleet with first-class warships?
        Of course, I understand that many local visionary dreamers want to see atomic super linkors and mega-avian carriers in the ranks, but the reality is that the country needs just such “mercury” and not useless wunderwaffes with caliber zircons.
        1. Archivist Vasya
          Archivist Vasya 16 September 2019 12: 23
          0
          And why is this angular vessel better than a multifunctional cruiser or battleship? At the expense of aircraft carriers, I agree that they are not needed.
          1. Corn
            Corn 16 September 2019 12: 58
            +2
            And why is this angular vessel better than a multifunctional cruiser or battleship?
            by the fact that they can be built a lot, while keeping and not bankrupt the country, which will provide reliable protection of territorial waters and control over the water area around. And what can piece "multifunctional cruisers" do for the country? - rightly, only rot at the pier in anticipation of a "big war", which will never be (and if it will), they will be the first victim.
            Nowadays, the combat surface fleet has transferred the attacking functions to the submarine and aviation, there remains only reconnaissance, patrolling and self-defense, on which it is necessary to rely.
        2. Super
          Super 17 September 2019 08: 36
          0
          Yes, we have everything. And super-atomic battleships and much more. But this information is still secret.
        3. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 20
          +1
          Quote: Corn
          Are you against replenishing the Russian fleet with first-class warships?

          fool
          where do you see "first-class"?!?!
          or vert or BAD "box for missiles"?!?!
          moreover, at the price of TOR 20386 at the level of the serial FRIGATE pr. 22350 (with simply incomparable combat power)
          Quote: Corn
          commentator dreamers want to see atomic super links and mega-carriers

          dreamers may want it
          only here who with brains and conscience is all right wants MASS SERIES OF EFFECTIVE SHIPS of the Navy, and 20386 "cuts" it in the bud
        4. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 43
          +1
          He is never first-class. Dear, slightly armed, overcomplicated, with a bunch of technical risks. And he already cost us a BMZ ship upgrade program. And this is only a miserable beginning.
        5. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 19 September 2019 07: 34
          0
          I'm against replenishment with shit and useless crap. And "Impudent Mercury" is such and is in fact.

          Yes, and about atomic superabianos battleships it seems like they were not talking. The maximum of a distinct corvette. Which would be worth building a dozen three more.
  10. shonsu
    shonsu 16 September 2019 11: 06
    +4
    Everyone criticizes this project, but it seems to me that they are not negotiating something. Well, a ship of the 20386 project with weaker (and cheaper) weapons than the 20385 cannot be twice as expensive. What the same stuffed into it for this money?
    1. Mestny
      Mestny 16 September 2019 11: 21
      0
      Everything is sofa experts on the Internet. What they read is fiercely criticized.
      In this case, it’s wonderful that they’re not negotiating anything. It is known to whom, as you know, half of the work is not shown.
    2. Cympak
      Cympak 16 September 2019 20: 57
      +1
      New ROCs, NIIRs, kickbacks, drinks ... And we get a more expensive ship, but with a simplified strike complex, without CD, without PLUR, with a simplified GAK, but with a lift for a helicopter, a "modular" concept, but without modules ready for installation ...
    3. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 22
      +1
      Quote: shonsu
      Everyone criticizes this project, but it seems to me that they are not negotiating something. Well, a ship of the 20386 project with weaker (and cheaper) weapons than the 20385 cannot be twice as expensive. What the same stuffed into it for this money?

      see https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom
  11. alexmach
    alexmach 16 September 2019 11: 08
    +2
    According to the deputy chief designer, “there are probably no analogues in the world” - the helicopter on the corvette is stored in a hangar under the upper deck.

    Yes, but why?
    1. uav80
      uav80 16 September 2019 12: 38
      0
      This is a modular system instead of an elevator for a helicopter, you can install an additional package of the same "calibers", "onyx" or the same air defense system
      1. alexmach
        alexmach 16 September 2019 13: 30
        +3
        Calliber instead of a helicopter, well, such an idea in my opinion. Let's put instead of chopping Callibra or something. Onyx - very vryatli.
        1. Vadmir
          Vadmir 16 September 2019 16: 57
          +6
          Let's put instead of chopping Callibra or something.
          Yeah, and now let’s place the Gauges on every tug, every barge, and in every inflatable boat laughing
      2. Cympak
        Cympak 16 September 2019 21: 02
        +1
        But there are no modules. Caliber in a container only as a model for an exhibition. SAM? Additional launchers for "Reduta"? There was no question of this. Tor-MF, Pantsir-M? How will they work as guidance radars from below deck? There was also no talk about "Onyx" in the container.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 35
          +3
          Quote: Cympak
          But there are no modules. Caliber in the container only in the form of a model for the exhibition.

          yes Caliber flew with them, and a long time ago
          see both patents, and video twisted, EMNIP on MVMS-2011
          the question is that such PU has VERY SEVERE RESTRICTIONS, and it didn't give the fuck to the navy, that's why they came up with a "sauce" Innovation for this rotten "modular" "NOODLES"
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 24
        +4
        Quote: uav80
        This is a modular system instead of an elevator for a helicopter, you can install an additional package of the same "calibers", "onyx" or the same air defense system

        instead of HELICOPTER
        moreover, at the previous 20385 MORE THAN TWO TIMES MORE POWERFUL WEAPONS TOGETHER TOGETHER with a helicopter
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 59
          +1
          Despite the fact that he himself was less than a third)))

          And all the modularity. Give half a meter for cranes, and then displacement went on to grow ...
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 September 2019 13: 02
            +1
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Give half a meter for cranes, and then displacement went on to grow ...

            at the same time, it was possible to stupidly put the rails for rolling containers from the stern into the middle part on the "cargo deck" (IMPACTED patrolman)
    2. Tektor
      Tektor 16 September 2019 12: 39
      +1
      So that stealth does not break ...
      And Mercury in its capabilities approaches the destroyers. It is likely that there will be 12 Zircons on board ... If you take into account the advanced radar systems, air defense / missile defense and a complete anti-submarine kit, coupled with the most advanced electric propulsion system, then Mercury will definitely become the most advanced warship in the world.
      1. alexmach
        alexmach 16 September 2019 13: 36
        +7
        So that stealth does not break

        And does the hangar on the deck really upset her? That is, 20380 and 22350 are no longer stealth?
        And Mercury in its capabilities approaches the destroyers

        Very vryatli.
        It is likely that there will be 12 Zircons on board ...

        Generally unbelievable. Native weapons of Uranus. 12 zircons will not fit there at all, not to mention the fact that these weapons were primarily intended for the first ranks.
        Considering advanced air defense / missile defense systems

        Weaker than Polyment-Redoubt on Gorshkovy
        and full anti-submarine kit

        No PLUR. The "kit" is the same incomplete as on the other 20380s.
        with the most advanced electric propulsion system

        Let's say yes.
        then Mercury definitely becomes the most advanced warship in the world.

        Yeah .. and the capital automatically moves to New Vasyuki ...
        The ship may not be bad, and promising, and most of the innovations on it are exactly what the Russian fleet needs, but it will never become the most perfect in the world.
        1. Tektor
          Tektor 16 September 2019 13: 47
          +1
          The exact composition of the armament of the Mercury / Daring corvette is unknown, the designers have repeatedly stated that the principle of modular acquisition will be implemented on a warship. And what happens in the end is very interesting.
          1. donavi49
            donavi49 16 September 2019 17: 57
            +4
            Known by 4 main directions:
            1) Nasal battery ZURok = Redoubt. They are not unified - therefore only ZURki, no Caliber and Zircon will fit there.
            2) A new version of A-190 in a new cap.
            3) 2x4 Package = at the same time, the crap with reloading (under the conditions of the base) will be even larger than on 20380, because they are hidden even deeper and the procedure will be even more complicated.
            4) a feed multi-functional area, which is suitable for accommodation:
            2X20f containers and helicopter
            6x20f containers
            2x20f containers and 2x40f containers
            additional watercraft (high-speed boats - you can take not 2, but 4 and feed them to the general quick-discharge system) or equipment in container design.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 32
              +1
              Quote: donavi49
              4) a feed multi-functional area, which is suitable for accommodation:

              Hochma in that HOW troubled 22160 Naumov scoffs at 20386
              with all his problems (and with its small displacement) TWO 40f containers + vert
              on 20386 ONE such a container - and only INSTEAD of vert
            2. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 58
              0
              for they are hidden even deeper and the procedure will be even more complicated.


              At one time, either Zakharov or Shlyakhtenko spoke on this subject in this vein:

              we lift the helicopter, it flies away, load the goods with a crane onto the deck, roll it in various ways on the helicopter lift, lower it down, roll it into the hold under the takeoff and landing deck, it’s easier there, because there are telphers, that’s why it’s all pulled apart places, well, and then the helicopter flies back, it is serviced and put on a lift, lowered back to the hangar.

              This was said in all seriousness.
          2. alexmach
            alexmach 16 September 2019 18: 20
            +2
            designers have repeatedly stated that the principle of modular acquisition will be implemented on a warship

            That is the whole question that this modularity will represent from itself in reality.
            The main thing is that this modularity does not look like something, a mythical container caliber napirmer, instead of a helicopter or a towed GAS.
            1. Cympak
              Cympak 16 September 2019 21: 15
              0
              Show those modules that are in service. Or pass the GI. I have heard about a diving module, a prison module, a module with BUGAS "Minotaur". But according to "Minotaur", there is no one to produce a cable for a flexible antenna (as of August 2019), the previous manufacturer went bankrupt, and there was no other one.
              1. alexmach
                alexmach 16 September 2019 21: 19
                +2
                Show those modules that are in service

                In all honesty, the ship itself has not yet been accepted into service, maybe it’ll be finished off .. but I agree, the very concept of this container modularity is extremely strange, and talking about the Calliber and especially modular air defense looks like a misinformation or journalistic stupidity.
              2. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 47
                0
                And what is Pskovkabel all already? I am aware that everything was on the verge, but I did not know that they crossed this line.
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 17 September 2019 12: 51
                  +1
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  And what is Pskovkabel all already? I am aware that everything was on the verge, but I did not know that they crossed this line.

                  there are options
                  and not just quite reasonable, but much more adequate than with the Pskovgeokabel
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 25
        +2
        Quote: Tektor
        And Mercury in its capabilities approaches the destroyers. It is likely that on board will be 12 Zircons.

        fool
        PLEASURE 120 ZirconoF
        why should their basurman be sorry ...
        lol
        1. Tektor
          Tektor 18 September 2019 11: 02
          0
          Nah, 120 won't fit. But 16 x 4 = 64 can:

          The ship is modular! We can only load rockets.
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 18 September 2019 11: 53
            0
            This picture was drawn by one forum enthusiast, it has nothing to do with reality.
    3. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 46
      +1
      And where is it? If you sculpt the radar blades on the overhead tripod, then it should be large. As a result, they made a shed, passed gas ducts and gas intakes of the gas turbine engine through it, and ZAKs, all antennas, etc. were stuck on it.

      Sailing has reached the limit. You can no longer increase the add-in.
      So we remove the helicopter under the deck.

      There, in general, everything is bad with the superstructure - the ship is in fact balanced around it.
      1. alexmach
        alexmach 17 September 2019 13: 26
        0
        The above-deck hangar will add a lot to the sailing add-ons? That is, this sailing is the reason why they hid it under the floor? Interesting.

        But what about 20385? there, in my opinion, the same radar antenna on a noticeably smaller superstructure. Or not the same?
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 18 September 2019 11: 54
          0
          On this project, an increase in the superstructure is no longer possible due to sailing, so there is nowhere to put the hangar - just below the deck.

          On 20385, the radar antennas are compactly assembled in a tower mast design, which provides a LARGE antenna height with a smaller superstructure.
          1. alexmach
            alexmach 18 September 2019 16: 59
            0
            First I wrote a comment, then I looked at the layouts, compared it again with 20380 (5) - the setting is really monstrous.
  12. Forest
    Forest 16 September 2019 11: 47
    +1
    The media - a wooden ship, without modern weapons and with a problematic propulsion system was taken as a standard)
  13. Alexander Bezpalchev
    Alexander Bezpalchev 16 September 2019 12: 59
    +6
    Without going into discussions about uniqueness, prospects, effectiveness, etc., I will say one thing: it’s a shame to place so illiterate under the auspices of the Military Review both in content and, sorry for the tautology, for the literacy notes!
  14. Pavel57
    Pavel57 16 September 2019 13: 06
    +1
    A strange project, what will happen in the end and the share of what tasks is not clear. So far, to escort NATO ships in the Black Sea.
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 16 September 2019 21: 16
      +1
      What? What other NATO ships and in which such Black Sea? Nothing messed up? Corvette for the Northern Fleet, presumably with a focus on PLO .. though without PLUR for some reason. What is not clear here?
    2. Cympak
      Cympak 16 September 2019 21: 16
      +1
      For this there is already a "modular" corvette 22160, which can only be accompanied and only not very fast ... itself produces 22,5 knots with all its innovative contours and "deep - V"
  15. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 16 September 2019 14: 03
    +1
    If only this project on paper, or in the layout just does not remain. Let's wait, see, and I don't think that comparison with the floating iron "Zamvolot" is appropriate, we don't have Mercury yet .... so there is nothing to compare yet.
    1. Vadmir
      Vadmir 16 September 2019 16: 50
      +1
      If only this project on paper, or in the layout just did not remain.
      It’s already being built, don’t worry, the paper and the layout are out of the question.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 26
        +1
        Quote: Vadmir
        It’s already being built, don’t worry, the paper and the layout are out of the question.

        Well, you need to "master" the loot ...
        https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 53
          0
          https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom


          And someone from a couple of Pos * ov-St *** s protected him and jacked him all this time, by the way. Maybe you even know who.
          1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Cympak
      Cympak 16 September 2019 21: 27
      +2
      In 2016, the 20386 project was laid down, technical readiness at the end of February 2019 amounted to 12%, at this rate this project could well remain on paper + metal
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 27
        +1
        Quote: Cympak
        In 2016, the 20386 project was laid down, technical readiness at the end of February 2019 amounted to 12%, at this rate this project could well remain on paper + metal

        the project is now very kurochit
        due to obvious serious flaws
        by the way, the effect of the "podzhopnikov" on him from Timokhin and me also had consequences;)
      2. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 17 September 2019 12: 51
        0
        It was simply not built until the end of 2018. Subsystems did, an add-on, and the mortgage section was lying on the NE, by the way, I'm not sure that it was from this project at all.
  16. Kerensky
    Kerensky 16 September 2019 14: 46
    +2
    Modular weapons, of course, are interesting. Part of the service staff, with its containers, constantly misses the shore.
  17. Antokha
    Antokha 16 September 2019 14: 50
    +3
    Shipbuilding experts speak very poorly about project 20386. We can say they call it wrecking.
  18. Pavel57
    Pavel57 16 September 2019 15: 22
    +1
    It is necessary to refuse modularity. Need a corvette - put Uranus and torpedoes. And until the average repair left in this configuration.
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 16 September 2019 21: 19
      0
      The best modularity - UVP Mk41. Or you can still look towards the popular MEKO.
    2. alexmach
      alexmach 16 September 2019 21: 22
      +1
      We must abandon modularity

      Well why. some kind of free space where you can put something auxiliary as a whole would not be very bad to have. On the other hand, it would be very good, for example, to be able to replace the inclined PUs of Uranus or part of them with the inclined PUs of Callibra with the PLUR or something else, and not during some large-scale repair of perestroika. This is also modularity.
    3. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 28
      +2
      Quote: Pavel57
      It is necessary to refuse modularity.

      do not
      it makes sense
      you just need to do it ACCORDINGLY (see the same "Absalon")
      and not "shove in 20 and 40 foot containers" KhZCH and KhZchem
  19. garri-lin
    garri-lin 16 September 2019 21: 43
    0
    I’m not a specialist at all, but I can’t understand by Packages. Why is there so little and what is the difficulty of making a reserve near the launcher? Self-defense is one thing, but corvettes are escortmen. If you have to upholstery yourself and escort ships will it be enough to sew up?
    1. Pavel57
      Pavel57 16 September 2019 22: 28
      +1
      Not enough. The package at sea does not reboot. ((((
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 17 September 2019 02: 13
        +1
        And what about recharging so complicated? In fact, a curbstone with a swivel mechanism on which an eNoy amount of TPK is attached. Why not put a stack of those TPK near the pedestal? There the weight is about 600-700 kg. An ordinary winch can be raised and installed. Or are there any difficulties?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 17 September 2019 10: 55
          +1
          Quote: garri-lin
          Or are there any difficulties?

          There is. As the uv. mina:
          From the "usual" torpedo tube the torpedo is fired with compressed air. The launch of a torpedo or anti-torpedo from CM-588 is performed using a powder charge. Naturally, the re-installation of the powder charge in TPK outside the manufacturing plant is impossible. In the usual TA torpedo load sailors, with the help of simple devices.
          Sailors cannot load anything into TPK, it comes to the fleet already equipped, it is only necessary to install it on the launcher and connect the wiring.
          And its mass is such that even if it is tightly surrounded by sailors, they will not be able to lift it to the height needed for reloading PU (look again at the photo). Mass TPK with a torpedo of about a couple of hundred kilograms fails to a ton. He is too heavy to be turned over in the closed ship space.

          What is the process of reloading PU CM-588? Consider the example of a corvette project 20380.
          Above the PU there is a sliding hatch through which the transport and launch containers can be loaded on board the ship and immediately put on the launcher. In order to take advantage of this hatch, it is necessary to moor the ship to the pier overboard, adjust the crane to the ship, remove the boat with the hatch, and then everything is simple - the TPC crane rises to the height and then descends into the hatch, where personnel of the warhead-3 secures them to the launcher.
          Then the hatch closes, the boat is put in place, and that's it - we can again beat off the 4 torpedoes and attack the boat with the same number of our torpedoes. And then you have to go back to the base, wherever the ammunition is spent.

          Judging by the advertising materials at the exhibitions, the mass of one equipped TPK "Package" is about 930 kg. When reloading at sea, it will be necessary to precisely install this almost one-ton pipe 4,5 meters long in waves on the launcher. Moreover, in a compartment limited in size.

          The bourgeoisie is all the easier - their 324-mm torpedoes do not have TPK and other body kit and weigh 270-350 kg.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 September 2019 12: 03
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As the uv. mina

            Timokhin wrote, in his article his small mistakes, but the main thing is transferred correctly
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 17 September 2019 14: 12
              0
              Quote: Fizik M
              Timokhin wrote

              Oops ... I apologize for the incorrect attribution.
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 19 September 2019 09: 41
            0

            They did everything right ....
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 30
          +1
          Quote: garri-lin
          There the weight of 600-700 kg is approximately

          more
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 September 2019 11: 29
      +1
      Quote: garri-lin
      I’m not a specialist at all, but I can’t understand by Packages. Why is there so little and what is the difficulty of making a reserve near the launcher?

      see Timokhin's TA article
  20. Dmitry Vyazmenskiy
    Dmitry Vyazmenskiy 17 September 2019 02: 12
    0
    Quote: mark1
    "Uranus" is about nothing, the air defense system is silent. It turns out a gigantic (3500 tons), under-armed corvette of the "ocean zone", much inferior to pr 20385. If you have nothing to say (or a great secret). it's better to just keep quiet

    Here: https://youtu.be/0wjhAfJHWiA
  21. Super
    Super 17 September 2019 08: 38
    0
    Imagine how Americans are writing from such news! Go Russia!
  22. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 17 September 2019 12: 37
    0
    It is too early to talk about what is not yet. But it’s already remarkable that the corvette can also be used in ocean waters
  23. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 12: 57
    +1
    Examples of Adequate Modularity:
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=2134&p=22#p1251302
  24. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 13: 13
    +1
    a bit of harsh reality (officialdom!)


    as they say - "facts on the face" angry
  25. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 13: 25
    +1
    clearly:
    at the top - when they "think" fool .opoy (and tear a trampoline about "not having analogofff" wassat )

    below - when they think HEAD
  26. looker-on
    looker-on 17 September 2019 13: 58
    0
    Quote: Super
    Imagine how Americans are writing from such news! Go Russia!

    Wrong word! They have that unfortunate hundred destroyers and a hundred other "little ships" including 11kton aircraft carriers. The Americans almost surrendered)
  27. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 15: 34
    +1
    Analyzing the experience of using the above concepts according to foreign press, it can be noted that the transition to modular ships revealed the following problems [1]:
    Loss of useful volumes in the ship's hull. This problem, firstly, is associated with the formation of specially allocated volumes of “mounting zones” for modules. Of the approximately 3000 tons of LBK displacement, only 400 tons account for the payload, and replaceable warheads account for about 180 tons.
    Secondly, mechanical fastening of modules, unlike welding fastening, requires special foundations or platforms with reinforcements, which complicates the layout of the ship. This problem is especially relevant for ships of small displacement.
    Switching off the supporting structures of modules from the operation of the ship’s hull. Ships built by
    the ideologies of Modular Payload will inevitably have, in addition to excess displacement, a greater bend and
    elastic deformations afloat, since the supporting structures of the modules are practically switched off from the equivalent beam of the ship. Large deformations of the hull after descent, in turn, lead to a mismatch of the exact ship systems during operation.
    The content of the required excess modules. The implementation of the idea of ​​plug-in modules requires a certain excess of them. For the maintenance and replacement of modules, and subsequently for their disposal,
    appropriate infrastructure and peacetime costs are required, especially with extended
    sea ​​border. It is also necessary to take into account the costs of retraining and shift crews. Currently, the Danish Navy refused to maintain interchangeable items due to the high cost of operation
    weapon modules for ships like Flyvefisken under the Standard Flex program.
    Positioning modules when replacing. During operation due to deformation of the hull
    ship structures there is a mismatch of elements of the system of ship bases, as well as their
    loss for various reasons. Restoring the system of ship bases during repair and modernization
    ships, especially those afloat, require the use of special equipment and enough
    laborious methodology performed by highly qualified specialists. It makes it difficult
    coordination of accurate ship systems when replacing modules by the forces of the Navy repair services. AT
    the proposed LEGO system does not have a lock providing unambiguous positioning of weapon modules.
    The difficulty of matching cable and pipeline routes of the ship when replacing modules with another
    type or upon receipt of combat damage.

    http://www.remmag.ru/admin/upload_data/remmag/12-5/CTSS.pdf
  28. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 16: 45
    +1
    But the 61 project differed from the 159 project (159А) only in a large displacement, the number of crews, gluttony of gas turbine engines and high cost of maintenance. Armament and sonar were almost the same, the crew was almost double the rank of the second. Of particular pride is the architecture and gas turbine power plant, it is really beautiful - “The Singing Frigate”. But it is impossible to fight submarines with melodies alone. So, it is no coincidence that they were reclassified as watchdogs. They were practically not allowed to engage in anti-submarine training, but kept in bases because of the high cost of operation. On fuel, which one ship with two gas-turbine power units consumed for daily access to the sea, the KPUG consisting of three ships of the 1124 Ave. could search for submarines for three days!


    https://topwar.ru/33919-o-protivolodochnyh-korablyah-istinnyh-i-mnimyh-o-vypolnenii-raketnyh-strelb-otlichnym-korablem-i-korablem-rabotyagoy.html
  29. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 16: 54
    +1
    I recommend to follow this link and comments
    https://topwar.ru/33919-o-protivolodochnyh-korablyah-istinnyh-i-mnimyh-o-vypolnenii-raketnyh-strelb-otlichnym-korablem-i-korablem-rabotyagoy.html
  30. kutuz
    kutuz 17 September 2019 17: 59
    +3
    "On the air of the TV channel" Zvezda "" - you don't have to read any further.
  31. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 19: 08
    +1
    It’s added that Mercury will be used silent adjustable pitch screw.

    "silent" belay screw is "five!" - from the category of "alternative physics" wassat
    Shnobelya to the author !!! lol
  32. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 September 2019 21: 43
    +3
    Can summarize some results of today's discussion.
    1. The Ministry of Defense and the Main Command of the Navy read Topvar, and in some cases they read it carefully, and moreover, they try to influence the "information vector."
    2. A series of publications of the "pink pony" level went just for the "eye delight" of "some faces" laughing
    3. However, they "did not succeed", because these "agitation" were "torn to shreds" in the comments.
    4. The main thing - at acc. persons of the RF Ministry of Defense to answer simple questions on the critical problems of the Navy and the supply of the Navy of obviously worthless weapons. Not a single argument in the case, not a single reasonable answer to sharp questions, some cheap and stupid agitation ...
    5. Topvar Publications Really Affectin particular in what way are they "kurochat" now 20386 my articles and Timokhina directly influenced (info from a reliable person in the subject)
    1. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 18 September 2019 11: 59
      0
      By the way, the people at VO sharply began to delve into the details, this is felt in the comments.
      I know this from myself, you do not delve into anything, then suddenly you discover a rigid discrepancy between officialdom and reality and you start digging into the details - and they quite "make their way". And they are accessible to the mind of an ordinary person.
      What am I living proof laughing

      And, I confess, the thought warms me that I, too, made my small contribution to this evolution.
  33. storm
    storm 17 September 2019 22: 16
    0
    the corvette does not differ in combat characteristics from pr 20380, but is twice as expensive, for 30 billion full-fledged frigates of the ocean zone, pr 22350 are being built.
    Does Kum need this mutant?
    There are lines of ships that took place in all fleets of the world and they need to be produced:
    Corvettes 20380/385
    - frigates 22350 / 350M
    - destroyers 23560