Military Review

Commander of the Indian Air Force called the conditions for the acquisition of Su-57

84
In India they made it clear that the issue of the possible acquisition of the newest Su-57 fighter from Russia has not been removed from the agenda. Recall that earlier in India announced the withdrawal from the joint program of a multi-purpose fighter 5-th generation FGFA, making a number of claims about the "inconsistency of the aircraft with the parameters of the new generation."




Now India has decided to name the conditions under which they are ready to sign a contract with Russia for the purchase of Su-57.

Marshal aviation In India, Birender Dhanoa, in an interview with the departmental Russian publication Red Star, spoke out for the possibility of acquiring 5th generation fighters from Russia. According to the Indian Marshal, Commander-in-Chief of the country's Air Force, India is ready to purchase Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft are put into service with the Russian Air Force “and show themselves.”

Recall that initially, several Su-57 with the engines of the so-called first stage will arrive in the VKS of Russia. These engines were most actively criticized by the Indian side. In India, stated that the engines do not meet the parameters of the fifth generation. In addition to engines, Indian partners still have claims on the implementation of low-visibility technology on the Su-57.

At the same time, India got into a situation when, after refusing to work together on the FGFA program, it actually rolled away from receiving the 5 generation fighter, significantly lagging behind its geopolitical rival, China.

I went to an interview with Marshal Dhanoa and talk about other aircraft. The Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Air Force noted that a request for the modernization of the Su-30MKI fleet came from New Delhi to Moscow. The Marshal also added that the Indian Air Force is "very pleased" with the upgrades of the MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29.
84 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Dmitry Potapov
    Dmitry Potapov 19 July 2019 06: 35
    23
    Pakistan needs to sell a couple, and the conditions of India will be one, we first!
    1. 210ox
      210ox 19 July 2019 06: 38
      38
      Yes, they do not care about them along with Pakistan. Everything is the most modern in our army. First of all.
      1. Hagalaz
        Hagalaz 19 July 2019 07: 12
        22
        Well, actually nothing new. Weapons already in the arsenal of the country of manufacture are always more readily bought than simply developments, albeit promising ones.
        But we need to systematically do what we have in mind and pay less attention to any requirements! Sign a contract, pay for development, and then already present the requirements. It's me in the direction of the Indians (snickering!).
        And we will do as we know and are able, according to our school, capabilities and understanding of military equipment. Then you want to take it, but you want to go through the forest.
      2. mihai_md2003
        mihai_md2003 20 July 2019 14: 00
        0
        Correctly say you need to raise the country in all directions, and not the whole world to root for a separate gas pipeline or a military contract. There was a feeling that we are ready to sell everything to everyone and even on credit. Do not forget that such technologies have been created for decades and only in technologically advanced countries. They don’t want our conditions to go through the market.
    2. figwam
      figwam 19 July 2019 06: 51
      +5
      after these planes are put into service with the Russian Aerospace Force "and they will show themselves."

      Already this year, the first serial ones will arrive in the army and, of course, they will, they will.
      1. Shuttle
        Shuttle 19 July 2019 07: 42
        -8
        Quote: figvam
        after these planes are put into service with the Russian Aerospace Force "and they will show themselves."

        Already this year, the first serial ones will arrive in the army and, of course, they will, they will.

        And here it becomes clear why they will arrive at very low prices ....
        1. Shuttle
          Shuttle 20 July 2019 17: 23
          0
          Quote: Shuttle
          Quote: figvam
          after these planes are put into service with the Russian Aerospace Force "and they will show themselves."

          Already this year, the first serial ones will arrive in the army and, of course, they will, they will.

          And here it becomes clear why they will arrive at very low prices ....

          It is very surprising to see such a number of those who disagree with the fact that it is completely obvious that the desire of the Indians to buy a plane already exploited in Russia plays into the hands of everyone - both our MO and Indian. Indians understand why there is no point in explaining. But ours - the reason is a bit deeper.
          It is obvious that the Indian logic is simple, understandable, has objective grounds. Therefore true with a high probability. Now our MO can safely push through the government and the manufacturer with the promise - give us a batch cheaper, but then you have the Su-57 snapped up like cakes. In general, the Russian Defense Ministry is probably the best promoter of weapons. There is already a stereotype in the world that Russian weapons, if not the best at all, are definitely the best for a lower price.
    3. Kuroneko
      Kuroneko 19 July 2019 06: 57
      0
      Quote: Dmitry Potapov
      Pakistan needs to sell a couple

      Pakistan is still a beggar, the budget cannot handle such a technique. And not a single sane general in their defense will approve the purchase of a pair of three units even advanced technology. If this is not some kind of Montenegro or a typical African state (but they do not need it). Not those volumes and real returns, but hemorrhages (with supply, maintenance, and te te) - the sea.
    4. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 19 July 2019 09: 08
      +4
      India is ready to make the purchase of the Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft are put into service with the Russian Aerospace Forces “and prove themselves.”

      And you dance, following the example of the Bender Axis, maybe it will break off! But the price can be raised for such a choosy! And then pay for specific, joint development is weak, and give modern technology!
      And figs to you!
    5. self-propelled
      self-propelled 19 July 2019 21: 57
      0
      Quote: Dmitry Potapov
      Pakistan needs to sell a couple ...

      Well, why Pakistan? I think the Turks, under certain conditions, do not mind explain amer that they have become no authority in their eyes
      winked
  2. Kuroneko
    Kuroneko 19 July 2019 06: 40
    14
    I would ask: what about us? = _ =
    Let them put forward requirements, who is in the way. But Turkey will get such a Makar Su-57 rather than India.
    Dance on.
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 01
      0
      Turkey doesn’t have even 4th generation troubles, it’s just no use to them, so even the 5th will not. True, if they intend to pursue a policy independent of NATO, at least partially, then they may need such.
  3. knn54
    knn54 19 July 2019 06: 41
    +6
    And what did the Indian defense minister say wrong?
    1. Kuroneko
      Kuroneko 19 July 2019 06: 46
      +6
      Quote: knn54
      And what did the Indian defense minister say wrong?

      Everything is so, in theory, but leaving the FGFA program was already very "smart", and new ones were presented to the Su-57 - it looks too much like a middle-class petty-political blackmail (again pursuing the goal of bringing down the price and getting technology). Nothing new. For a niche to get something. Otherwise we won't buy! And how many decades tenders in India can drag on - the whole world already knows.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 19 July 2019 07: 08
        +2
        Quote: knn54
        And what did the Indian defense minister say wrong?

        It's like that. Everything is logical .... these are not the words of the politician of the sloth, the words of RESPONSIBLE commander.
        This does not exclude further "dancing with a tambourine", but the statement is specific.
        1. yehat
          yehat 19 July 2019 10: 30
          +7
          the problem is that even the American f-22 practically did not show itself, except in films, but there are no complaints about it. And the su-57 comes out much later.
          And finally, how should he prove himself? Attack NATO and frolic, so what?
          Where else are the goals to find this plane? ISIS does not seem to have aviation yet.
          in my opinion, you should not go under the Indians, but it’s useful to wave a carrot in front of their nose, because it is an important arms market. Let them move, and China and Pakistan will help them not to fall asleep.
          I have only 1 question - if Pakistan buys a su-57, how did it buy the t90, what will India do?
          1. kit88
            kit88 19 July 2019 10: 39
            +6
            Quote: yehat
            even the American f-22 practically did not show itself, except in the films, but there are no complaints about it.

            So f-22 and do not sell to anyone. Where do claims come from?
            Here they sell f-35s, and then there are claims of 2 echelons.
          2. rocket757
            rocket757 19 July 2019 10: 39
            +1
            Quote: yehat
            if Pakistan buys a Su-57, how did the T90 buy, what will India do?

            The Chinese can’t, the American F 35, as a competitor, is also doubtful .....
            however, these are words so far, our plane is also not ready .... yet!
            1. whitebeard
              whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 04
              0
              F-35 and should not be a competitor, because he is a mukhach 5P, and the Su-57 is a heavy. So India, most likely, will also buy the F-35, too - we don’t have 5P flymen and we won’t see it in the coming years
          3. whitebeard
            whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 02
            0
            So the F-22 is not sold to anyone. And the Su-57 are going to
    2. Eragon
      Eragon 19 July 2019 07: 04
      +6
      Quote: knn54
      And what did the Indian defense minister say wrong?

      Yes, that's right. With such claims, let them continue flying on 40 and 50 airplanes of a summer prescription. Very modernized.
      1. whitebeard
        whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 08
        0
        No, well, he is right, from their point of view - if you buy a 5P-destroyer, then a full-fledged 5P, and not under 5P. Especially since they are in no hurry for now, they can still buy the 5P-fly fly F-35, and there they will finish the Su-57, and then the Indians will buy it with pleasure too. Of course, it would be great if the same Miga had its own 5P-fly, so that it could be offered to the Indians instead of the kosyachny F-35, but alas, we liked the light 5P segment for the coming years.
    3. Marconi41
      Marconi41 19 July 2019 10: 19
      0
      Quote: knn54
      And what did the Indian defense minister say wrong?

      It's like that. India does not want to invest money in this project, as it was originally. You see, they will buy it all the same.
      1. whitebeard
        whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 11
        0
        Of course they will. There are no more offers for 5P strands on the market, no one will sell them F-22, it is not in China to buy it. They just want to buy a full-fledged 5P heavy, rather than a semi-finished product, which so far in fact is the Su-5 in terms of meeting all 57P requirements.
  4. Graz
    Graz 19 July 2019 06: 43
    +6
    let the Indians only ask themselves who else will sell them 5th generation aircraft?
    1. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 19 July 2019 07: 44
      0
      The market is the market and it has its own rules - to bring down the price and buy more with the same money
      Israel has F-35s ... and what is it?
      This is Turkey. How will she answer?
      1. Graz
        Graz 19 July 2019 08: 26
        +3
        and the Turks for the purchase of f-35 Israel responded with the purchase of C 400
        1. To be or not to be
          To be or not to be 19 July 2019 08: 35
          0
          Graz (Graz) Today, 08: 26 NEW

          and the Turks responded to the purchase of the F-35 by Israel with the purchase of the S 400 "

          Yeah ... covering them with Ankara and Istanbul
          At the same time, the S-400 is a defensive weapon, and the F-35 is a fifth-generation fighter-bomber
          Su-57 is a fifth-generation multi-functional fighter,
    2. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 13
      0
      Americans - F-35. True, it is not a replacement for the Su-57, since it is lightweight, but it is already in the series and can be offered on the market, and India as a special market for the United States, it will certainly be available. And when the 57th is brought to full compliance with 5P, then the Indians will buy it too
  5. V1er
    V1er 19 July 2019 06: 47
    +4
    Indian national fun - dancing and songs in the bazaar to bring down the price)
  6. rocket757
    rocket757 19 July 2019 07: 05
    +2
    India is ready to make the purchase of the Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft are put into service with the Russian Aerospace Forces “and prove themselves.”

    It is quite logical. This is already similar to the words of the RESPONSIBLE COMMANDER!
  7. midshipman
    midshipman 19 July 2019 07: 15
    +5
    India is our longtime partner. There are more than 3 thousand airfields, two aircraft carriers and everywhere our aviation. I had to participate in working with them when the Indians launched the production of the MiG-23. And they did everything.
    1. yehat
      yehat 19 July 2019 16: 24
      +1
      very interesting statistics of the operation of mig-23 in india and its comparison with the USSR
  8. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 19 July 2019 07: 16
    +3
    A pair of dozens of 57 gypsies - and support the USC, and our cost will drop ... And there are still buyers to catch up ... They have an eternal theme ... Bargain ... How ... gypsies wassat
  9. aszzz888
    aszzz888 19 July 2019 07: 16
    0
    India is ready to make the purchase of Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft will be put into service of the Russian Air Force "And prove themselves."
    Hints at running-in during hostilities?
    1. hydrox
      hydrox 19 July 2019 09: 05
      +2
      It’s likely: it’s not even a year has passed since the Su-57 pair was on a 3-day business trip to Khmeimim: I don’t think that many people know what this couple was doing there, but they say that it was successful ...
      1. whitebeard
        whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 16
        0
        Well, the Indian aviator is hinting that it would be nice to talk about these actions in more detail, at least to them, so that they themselves can evaluate the effectiveness.
  10. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 19 July 2019 07: 39
    +1
    There is common sense in this.
  11. steelmaker
    steelmaker 19 July 2019 07: 46
    -4
    What kind of power do we have? They either send it, or put ultimatums! It's disgusting!
    1. URAL72
      URAL72 19 July 2019 08: 44
      +3
      Just to fart. What does power have to do with it? This is business, this is the defense of a foreign country. The intervention of the Russian authorities will be regarded as pressure. Provocateur.
  12. svp67
    svp67 19 July 2019 07: 46
    +6
    According to the Indian Marshal, Commander-in-Chief of the country's Air Force, India is ready to purchase Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft are put into service with the Russian Air Force “and prove themselves.”
    Well this is a common requirement of any foreign buyers. In the 90s and "noughties" many of our new models of weapons could not win various tenders for the purchase because of the simple question that if this weapon is as good as you say, why is it not in service with the Russian army?
    Therefore, it has long been necessary to make it a rule that if we want to bring some type of weapons to the international market, then first of all it must be delivered to our troops
  13. Alexander Petrov1
    Alexander Petrov1 19 July 2019 07: 56
    +8
    If we didn’t leave the joint program, then there would be India and 5th generation technologies and co-production and the price as an ally and partner would be much lower than the market, and now you will buy from Russia at a market price of $ 100 million and you will not have any discounts and technology ... laughing
    1. Andrey83
      Andrey83 19 July 2019 08: 32
      +1
      That's right! And then they want everything at once to get both technology and a pleasant price, and so that without risks ...
      1. Alexander Petrov1
        Alexander Petrov1 19 July 2019 08: 46
        +5
        We have already taught them the mind, for example, with the S-400 the same thing was made out at the beginning such as transfer technologies, build factories in India, and when we saw that the Great Neighbor China bought and other countries lined up, including Pakistan hinted at a purchase, here they forgot pride and bought without conditions, as they say, to jump into the last tram at least, otherwise you’ll be left with nothing and without protection of your sky, as happened with SU-57 ... smile
    2. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 17
      0
      If she didn’t have 5P technologies, they would only be engaged in their assembly - have not yet grown enough to produce
      1. Alexander Petrov1
        Alexander Petrov1 19 July 2019 20: 30
        -1
        Well, as if there would be no technology, under the joint development agreement it was 50 to 50, by the way, just as they received the supersonic Bramos (Onyx), even before China, they would never have made such a rocket without us. smile
  14. FRoman1984
    FRoman1984 19 July 2019 07: 56
    +2
    It would be better not to sell the Su-57 at all until all IAPs are rearmament, at least.
    the Americans didn’t sell the F-22 to anyone.
    1. URAL72
      URAL72 19 July 2019 08: 51
      +3
      F-22 is already a hundred years old at lunch. Americans themselves admit that the Su-57 car is more advanced. What technologies are more secret and perfect there than on the F-35? I think they will not sell it, so that the myth of the best fighter in the world does not collapse.
      1. whitebeard
        whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 34
        0
        It is more perfect in full 5P form, now while it is in the under 5P version. Moreover, the initially declared characteristics for a full 5P must be confirmed, there the very concept of stealth can cause questions, you need to look at real tasks
    2. Marconi41
      Marconi41 19 July 2019 10: 23
      +1
      Quote: FRoman1984
      It would be better not to sell the Su-57 at all until all IAPs are rearmament

      so it is, but export makes it possible to build for yourself.
      1. Alf
        Alf 19 July 2019 19: 53
        0
        Quote: Marconi41
        so it is, but export makes it possible to build for yourself.

        That's how it is, but the plant is not rubber.
    3. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 19
      0
      We have a different policy, so we can very well sell the export option.
  15. servant.
    servant. 19 July 2019 07: 56
    0
    everything is logical! No one will buy a cat in a bag .....
  16. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 19 July 2019 08: 00
    +2
    after these planes are put into service with the Russian Aerospace Force "and they will show themselves."

    Nobody will buy a cat in a poke. But they spoiled their "credit" history.
  17. lopvlad
    lopvlad 19 July 2019 08: 06
    +3
    India is ready to make the purchase of Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft will be put into service with the Russian Aerospace Forces “and show themselves”


    while India will have to take a seat for the Su-57 at the end of a very long line of people who want to buy.
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 22
      +1
      So far, there is no "long queue"))) And India, in any case, would be ahead of everyone in this queue, as a major buyer. So, it will no longer be possible to test them, our military industrial complexes are already too dependent and too fond of money;) But we also don’t need to succumb to blackmail, there should be equal cooperation, and Great Russian weaponry pride should be shoved far away and fulfilled India's reasonable quality requirements and combat capabilities.
  18. Demagogue
    Demagogue 19 July 2019 08: 49
    0
    If Borisov says that the Su-57 does not have any particular advantages over the Su-35, then what would the Indians want? They announced the real term of readiness in 2025, and now there is nothing to discuss.
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 23
      +1
      Well, in this version - really does not. The same thing drove him, in fact, from the same Su-35go. Plus, it’s still not clear what’s happening with the radar. Yes, and by stealth there are also questions.
  19. Demagogue
    Demagogue 19 July 2019 08: 52
    +2
    Quote: lopvlad
    India is ready to make the purchase of Su-57 from Russia after these aircraft will be put into service with the Russian Aerospace Forces “and show themselves”


    while India will have to take a seat for the Su-57 at the end of a very long line of people who want to buy.


    What a stupid thing. Hindu wholesaler, no one else will take large parties. To sell two pieces to China, so that everything that is possible is ripped off, of course much more profitable.
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 24
      +2
      No, now they sell 24 pieces to China for a "couple of pieces". But this is also a drop in the ocean, in fact, and technologies are wasted
  20. Esaul
    Esaul 19 July 2019 08: 58
    -1
    The Su-30 is enough for Hindus, they still didn’t really learn how to fly them.
    1. IL-18
      IL-18 19 July 2019 09: 17
      +4
      Quote: Esaul
      did not learn to fly.

      Do not put on one level the elementary scam and professional skills of pilots.
    2. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 26
      +1
      The Chinese, too, are not particularly able to fly, but they already have 5P, even if in fact it’s under 5P. But something like India, at least for prestige, must be, even if 5P so far will have more of them))
  21. mihey
    mihey 19 July 2019 09: 10
    +3
    In India, it was stated that the engines did not meet the parameters of the fifth generation.

    Here I can not understand: "I look in the book I see a fig" (c) - engines 22 and 35 mericos are somehow better than our first stage, but nevertheless, the next generation?
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 28
      0
      Better. On the F-22 - there is a guaranteed cruising supersonic. As for the F-35 - so far questions in this sense, but they will also finish it. An engine with a resource of 6000, we now only have a "1st stage" engine for the 57th and 35th, but they do not provide cruising supersonic.
  22. DimDimych
    DimDimych 19 July 2019 09: 15
    0
    "Well done" Indians, they do not want to take the "raw" version, they are waiting for all the "childhood diseases" to be removed ...
    True, when they decide and save some money, then, already, it will be necessary to purchase generations 5 ++ and 6 !!! laughing
  23. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 19 July 2019 09: 19
    +1
    It is clear that India, as a purchasing country, has every right to put forward its wishes (but not requirements).
    after these aircraft will be put into service with the Russian Aerospace Forces “and show themselves”
    They propose to adopt and unleash a small war for the manifestation of the qualities of the aircraft and to satisfy the ambitions of a potential buyer. So the Su-57 traveled to Syria undergoing tests in real combat conditions or is it not enough for the Indians?
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 29
      +1
      Requirements can also - who will forbid them ?;) Another thing is whether we and we want to satisfy these requirements.
  24. Demagogue
    Demagogue 19 July 2019 09: 33
    +1
    Quote: rotmistr60
    It is clear that India, as a purchasing country, has every right to put forward its wishes (but not requirements).
    after these aircraft will be put into service with the Russian Aerospace Forces “and show themselves”
    They propose to adopt and unleash a small war for the manifestation of the qualities of the aircraft and to satisfy the ambitions of a potential buyer. So the Su-57 traveled to Syria undergoing tests in real combat conditions or is it not enough for the Indians?


    Why war game? They will conduct joint exercises with the videoconferencing. Let's say su-30 or rafal versus su-57.
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 29
      0
      This will be an incorrect comparison. It is necessary to compare with the F-22, and the Americans themselves will not do that.
  25. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 19 July 2019 09: 33
    -1
    To convince this Buridan donkey - India to come to some decision, you need to start selling the SU-57 to Islamabad.
    1. whitebeard
      whitebeard 19 July 2019 20: 31
      +1
      It’s not necessary, you just need to finish it up to full 5P, put it in a commodity quantity in the troops and share info with India about real military use, in Syria, for example. Islamabad still does not have money for this, and they will buy, if anything, cheaper under 5P from China
  26. Serg81
    Serg81 19 July 2019 11: 51
    -1
    In general - give a discount
  27. Berkut24
    Berkut24 19 July 2019 12: 18
    0
    At the same time, India got into a situation when, after refusing to work together on the FGFA program, it actually rolled away from receiving the 5 generation fighter, significantly lagging behind its geopolitical rival, China.

    And at the same time set the conditions for Russia?
  28. bmv04636
    bmv04636 19 July 2019 18: 24
    -2
    You just need to sell the Su-35 packs and all the dances will end
  29. schura.kilka
    schura.kilka 19 July 2019 19: 08
    0
    We respond to vskie statements, why, the roasted rooster pecks themselves will come running, and more money will be paid for urgency.
  30. Vdi73
    Vdi73 19 July 2019 20: 25
    +1
    Yes, the fool understands what the Indians need, technology and production in India ...
  31. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 19 July 2019 23: 20
    0
    Quote: whitebeard
    It’s not necessary, you just need to finish it up to full 5P, put it in a commodity quantity in the troops and share info with India about real military use, in Syria, for example. Islamabad still does not have money for this, and they will buy, if anything, cheaper under 5P from China

    Are we cheaper than the skirting board? Worked together, financing, labor, information, building production ..... They decided that they were smarter than the Pope. Now let them catch up. We need to do, dviguny, locators, we have no allies and assistants. But let these bl ... and then pay in full. And no discounts.
  32. Alcoholic
    Alcoholic 20 July 2019 02: 31
    0
    :)))))
    Clown Indians.
    Now it is not surprising how people from the north of India and southerners differ.
  33. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 20 July 2019 13: 58
    0
    Where are you going, we need to get along with Delhi, but not at the expense of Russia. And the SU-57 is an intermediate aircraft and it is cool, but intermediate. Therefore, you need to export.
  34. dobrik10
    dobrik10 20 July 2019 14: 31
    0
    I would not buy a "pig in a poke" either, let him prove the stated characteristics ...
  35. Local from the Volga
    Local from the Volga 20 July 2019 16: 36
    0
    Here we have a weak bidding! Why not tell the hypothetical Borisov or Chemezov, well, they say, they decided to build a new airplane with Pakistan, they will also make brushes for the windshield and a cigarette lighter, but they will receive a squadron, and with China they decide to assemble the 7th generation at once! Then the great Indian intelligence with the MO would have gone into the dance!
  36. Demagogue
    Demagogue 22 July 2019 13: 38
    0
    Quote: whitebeard
    This will be an incorrect comparison. It is necessary to compare with the F-22, and the Americans themselves will not do that.


    Even as correct. The Americans conducted a mass of exercises of the 5th generation against the 4th. The advantage over the 4th generation must be proved.
  37. octogen
    octogen 5 August 2019 11: 50
    0
    Gypsies in their repertoire)))) A tender with rafals will not let you lie))))))