Army structure and regiments of the Byzantine army VI.

70
The composition of the army for most of the VI in:

I. Courts.



1. Spatharies, scribons, sili ciarius, cubiculars are small groups of bodyguards that arose in the preceding period;

2. Protectors and Domestica (protectores domestici) - officer, court ceremonial bodyguard unit, consisting of two schol;

3. Escuvites (eskubitory) - capable Guards unit, which was originally recruited from experienced veterans;

4. The court schola is the “old” guard, unlike the escuvites. Composition - 11 schol (palace regiments), the initial number of 3500 scholaria;

5. Candidates - a unit that was part of the palace schola. It can be described as an officer reserve.



Ii. Army.

The native army was to consist of territorial-based units — the palatini and the comitatus or stratiot arithms.

Two presenatal or court “armies” (in praesenti), which were based near the capital, belonged to the palatini.

The comitatus consisted of four territorial groups of troops ("armies"), which were located in Illyria, Thrace, in the East and (since the reign of Justinian I) in Armenia.

The difference, by this period, between the first and second was only stories the origin of the "armies", i.e., in the fighting, theoretically, the presentation armies were to participate with the support of the regional ones.

Due to the shortage of personnel, arithmics could be included both in the field army, remote from their places of deployment, and move from area to area. We know this by the example of the guard: Emperor Justinian I moved six schols from Asia Minor (Nicomedia, Chios, Kizik, Kotfa, Dorilei) to Thrace, to repel attacks from the north.

Despite the existence of directories, the actual number of stratiots in arithmas or gangs was different. The regiments, already long before the 6th century, were formed on the terms of mercenarism (contract), replenishment most often came at the expense of capable barbarians. Although the local population had such an opportunity: this is how Uncle Justinian, the Romanized Illyrian, the emperor Justin, came to the capital and entered the army. But since the native population did not aspire to military service despite the formally existing universal military duty, the government was forced to create new arithms, some completely consisting of barbarians. It should be noted that during this period, there was a clear separation between the catalog parts of the stratiots (soldiers) and other parts. This is underlined in his "History" of Procopius.

1. Fermopilian units - Under Justinian I, the thermopilic fortifications were guarded by the 2000 stratiotes, in contrast to the fact that they had previously been defended by armed locals who were not prepared for armed struggle. 2000 warriors are equal to two "new" legions or 10 arithmetic.

2. Vandali Iustiniani - Justinian formed regiments of captured vandals, calling their units "Justinian Vandals".

3. Emperor Tiberius, in 574, bought 5000 slaves, created the regiments of Tiberius from them and ranked them among the federals.

4. Theodosiaci - the imperial authorities in Rome under Pope Gregory in 592, created a regiment of "Soldier Theodosius."

5. Captured Bulgarian riders joined the 539 standard units - arithms in Armenia and Lazike [I. Chichurov Byzantine historical works: “The Chronography” of Theophanes, “Breviary” by Nikifor. Texts. Transfer. Comment. M., 1980. C.52.].

6. Of those who passed under the romeysky scepter in the second half of the 5th century. Huns were created two border detachments Sakromantiziev and Fossatisii (Sacromontisi, Fossatisii), existing in VI. [Jordan. On the origin and act of the Geth. Translation by E.Ch. Skrzhinsky. SPb., 1997. C.112].

7. The Armenian Nakharar troops were repeatedly recruited into the ranks of the Romanian troops, so in 600, Mauritius gave them the appearance of regular regiments and sent them to Thrace [Bishop Sebeos History of Emperor Irakl. Translation K. Patkanyan. Ryazan, 2006. C. 50., C.53., C.55., C.65 .; C.66.].

8. Detachments of Peltastes were formed from the Mavrusians (Moors).

9. Detachments of heavily armed infantry were formed from the Tsans.

10. Warriors were also recruited among the Roma population: the Isaurians or the Lycranite, the Samaritans, the Syrians, and the Cappadocians.

11. Catalog parts, cavalry, permanent bases from Thrace, Iliria.

Iii. Federations.

During the VI. we are witnessing a transition from "federated" relations of the early period to the direct employment of tribes or groups of "professionals" from barbarians: the Huns in Africa; Goths, Heruls and Vandals in the East, Persians and Armenians in Italy, Eruls and Lombards in Italy, etc. The federations enrolled in military service both personally and as part of a tribal group. In the federals could get a Greek. As we wrote above, the five thousand slaves purchased by Tiberius were transferred to the command of a committee of federates. Commanded a federation with 503g. committee of federates (comes foederatorum). In peacetime, at the head of each tagg of the federations there was an option, which was in charge of the soldiers ’allowance, in wartime - tribunes. At the beginning of the century, they, according to the historiographic tradition, could be divided into “ethnic” and “imperial”. Gradually, during the VI. This category is "lubricated", because they are trying to give it the appearance of a Roma regiment — arithms, but the specificity of the hostilities did not always allow for unification, as we saw above: “Some of [Heruli –V.E.] they became Roman soldiers and were enlisted in the troops under the name of“ federates ”( allies) ”[Procopius of Caesarea War with the Goths. Translation S.P. Kondratieff. T.1. M., 1996].

Archaeological data (perhaps) draws us an example of such indisputable warriors of the ready-federations from the south-west of Crimea: the population is engaged in farming, men are horsemen and, if necessary, come to the war as part of the Romanian units, as evidenced by army brooches and weapon. i.e., the federates became troops by structure not distinguishable from miles.

Iv. The squads of the leaders and commanders or bukkelarii.

Squads, units that have no formal status, consisting of shield bearers and spearmen, personally loyal to the leader, emerged in the Roman state from the period of the penetration of the barbarians. Commander Belisarius fielded 7000 riders at his expense [Procopius of Caesarea War with the Goths. Translation S.P. Kondratieff. T.1. M., 1996. C.213]. Justinian, with his 9 short story in March 542, commanded the dissolution of such personal commanders, apparently fearing the threat of an overturn from military leaders such as Belisarius, who returned to the capital just at that time [Nov.Just. 116]. But, as practice has shown, in the context of the decline of the traditional Roman military unit, the squads of barbarians or clients sometimes remained the only effective, professional units.

V. Border troops, or Milites limitanei.

These are permanently stationed troops in border settlements along the borders of the empire. In the VI. most of them were located on the border with the Arabs and Persians. There were detachments in Egypt and on the northern border, after the capture of Africa, Justinian ordered to create parts of the Limits here.

Border units could be drawn into the ranks of the field army. Limits, in turn, if necessary, supported the regular army. In repelling the attacks of the Arabs, besides the allied Arabs, the Duxes of the Limits also participated in the chiliarch Sevastian, i.e. 1000 stratiot unit commander [John Malala. Chronography // Procopius of Caesarea War with the Persians. War with vandals. Secret story. SPb., 1998. C.471].

Since the borders of the empire were extremely stretched, the border guards guarding them were in a huge number of fortresses and fortified points on the borders of the empire, many of which were restored during the rule of Justinian. The personnel consisted of settlers cultivating the land and receiving a salary for the service, but Jordan reports about settlement on the borders of the empire at the end of the 5th century. tribes or tribal groups that most likely lived there and in the VI. and carried out border protection:

1. In Illyric, tribes of Sarmatians and Kemandras sat.

2. In the Little Scythia and Lower Moesia there are skira, Sadagaria, Huns and Alans.

Vi. The militia of the tribes, allied Constantinople.

These units include the militia of the Erules, who fought in Italy with their king, the Gepidic squad. The Langobard militia, who, having taken part in the company of Narses, became acquainted with Italy and had already captured it on their own. 60 thousands of Lombards allegedly participated in hostilities in the east in 578. [Chapters from the "Church History" of John of Ephesus / Translation N.V. Pigulevskoy // Pigulevskaya N.V. Syrian medieval historiography. Research and translations. Compiled by Mescherskaya E.N. C-PB., 2011. C.547]. Finally, the tribal militia of the border Arab tribes, covering the eastern border. At the head of the tribes were "kings", officially called the philarchs.

[/ center] [center]

The structure of the army of the end of VI. - beginning of VII. was, according to Mauritius Stratigue, the following:

Territorial group of troops ("Army District") Mauritius, in the field, refers to the term "measure" or "Moira", this equestrian unit numbering 6000-7000 riders. However, as you can see, this unit is equal in number to the presentational or comitat army. In the field, the end of VI - the beginning of VII centuries. The field army consists (or should consist) of measures: Buckelaria, Vecillaria, Optimates, Federations, Illyrians. Connection in 24000 - 28000 riders. Such is the number of soldiers in the expeditionary and field army, without guards and other units. In reality, such an army could be less. So the army that fought in Persia, in 578 during the ascension to the throne of Tiberius, received a donative, based on the calculation of 5 solidis per warrior; C-PB., 11500.C.519].

The measure is naturally divided into smaller structural divisions, and at the base of it was a tagma. It should be emphasized that, formally, the tagma could coincide with arithms or gangs, but it could not coincide, since, according to the “Strategiston”, the tagmas are units for a particular battle, composed of arithms or gangs, which could be either less or more than the right amount of stratiots for the tagma.

In general, it can be said that the structures of the Roman army continued their development in the army of the 6th century.

Most of the old regiments died in the period of battles and catastrophes that went through the territory of the Western and partly Eastern Empire, especially in the V century.

Inattention to the needs of the native army, a sharp decrease in the number of soldiers in the subunit, the formation of subunits based on the current need, the armed nature of the formation, all this led to a drop in the value of the regiment (in the modern sense of the word). But not only that. The active use of cavalry by the enemy, forced the Romans to use a similar branch of service, which led to a change in the numerical strength of the tactical unit. If, in the republican period, 6 thousandth legions decided everything, then, at this time, the tactical unit was reduced to 300-500 people. The author of "Strategicon" notes that there is no exact number of warriors in the regiments (arithms or gangs), and for a combat unit - tagma, there could be a shortage of warriors in arithmet or gang: “Now that unequal magnitude arithms, it is not easy to establish the exact number of the tagma, so that those soldiers who exceed the number of 256 people would not be out of business, as it happens, or placed alongside other soldiers whom they do not know did not destroy would order the system; in any case, tagmy should be formed taking into account the characteristics of each unit. " i.e. it should be clarified that the tagma is a unit of combat formation on the battlefield, which was composed of soldiers of arithmetic or gang [Strategikon Mauritius. Translation and Commentary by V. V. Kuchma S-Pb., 2003. C.207].

By this time, the Greek name for the main lower division (by analogy with the legion), which we call the regiment (tagma), the schola in the guard, the arithmetic (αριθμός) or the number in the infantry, came into use. In the cavalry - gang. New times gave rise to a new organization of troops. Once again, it should be noted that the arithmetic of "permanent basing" in the VI. they were not parts that were put forward in full force to the theater of operations, as was the case with the Roman legion. It was, in modern terms, the framed part, consisting of the commander (tribune), the "headquarters" of the unit and staff employees of screenshots and clerks who were in charge of the Soldiers' Catalog, and, of course, of the stratiot soldiers. In peacetime, the soldiers were self-sufficient, i.e. cultivated their land plots, and were not in camps or barracks, engaged in military training. Although there were part of the barracks location, for example, in the fortress of Dara. The headquarters had a special room, so, by order of Justinian I, in the city of Zenobia, a special room for storing flags was built on the Euphrates.

The “winter apartments” of the regiment could not coincide with the place of its permanent base. Schitonos and spearmen Belisarius had "winter apartments" in Cilicia. In the event of hostilities, individual stratiots personally appeared at war, and the headquarters remained in place: Belisarius recruited an army among the stratiots and federates to go to Africa, in 550. commander Hermann recruited his squad to march to Italy, among the "regular (catalog) Thracian cavalry," in 578. Master of the Army of the East and the Committee of Escuiters Mauritius recruited warriors among the cataloged soldiers, from the guardsmen of the Escubiters and Scribons, in 583. Stratig Filippik recruited soldiers for a campaign against the Persians. It turns out that recruiting troops for war among catalog stratiots was a standard procedure of this period. The advantage of recruiting among catalogers was that these warriors were already prepared for combat, and on the eve of the campaign they did not need to be trained and trained like recruits.

During this period, we meet in the sources and the old parts: infantry and cavalry.

1. Lantsiarii - we meet the legion in the period of accession to the throne of Justin in the VI., The legion, known during the struggle for the throne of Julian the Apostate, in the IV. We also know several such regiments in the "List of all honorary positions." It can be assumed, based on the images of the shields of the “List” legions and the surviving images of the 6th century shields, that at the beginning of the century, the units of the Presentation armies were in Constantinople. It is obvious that its composition, at least, was no more than 1000 stratiots, if we rely on the number of the Legion of this period;

2. The schols (praetorianas cohortes) were located in Rome at the beginning of the 6th century, as Cassiodorus wrote about. [Flavius ​​Cassiodorus. Vararium. L.6.7.// http://antology.rchgi.spb.ru/Cassiodorus/varia6.html].

3. The regiment of brashiats presumably existed even during this period, which John Lead wrote about in his historical excursion: bracchiati or armilligeri .. According to the “List”, among the Palatine auxilii (auxilia) was Brachiati iuniores, in 1 th , among the Palatine vectors, Equites brachiati iuniores. Originally - these parts consisted of "barbarians". Perhaps the name of the regiment was written on the helmets of the soldiers. The origin of the name of the bracelets, which awarded distinguished warriors. [Jean le Lydien Des Vagistratures de l'etat romain. Paris.T.2. 1 partie. P.2.].

4. The Fourth Parthian Regiment of the Clibanaria. At the end of VI. Theophylact Simokatta mentioned a soldier from this unit, based in the Syrian city of Veroe (Halleb). At the beginning of the 5th century, according to the “List”, it refers to the Vexillationes comitatenses of the Master of the Army of the East. It is noteworthy that during the siege of Veroi in 540, most of the soldiers from this city went over to the side of Khosroy I, because the treasury had not paid their salaries for a long time. [Feofilakt Simokatta History. Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. M., 1996. C.43 .; Procopius of Caesarea War with the Persians. War with vandals. Secret story. SPb., 1998.C. 89.]

5. Third Dalmatian Bill (Equites Tertio Dalmatae). A portion is mentioned in Justinian’s decree. This cavalry Komitatsky detachment from Palestine Master of the Army of the East. John Lead defined the Vexillation of the first half of the 6th century. in 500 horsemen. [Lazarev S. A. The structure of the Late Roman Legion // http://www.ancientrome.ru/publik/lazarev/lazar03.htm]. It is possible that the bill of exchange (500 vsadniki) uses Bes, Dux of Martiropol (Mayferkat) in a battle with cadisid Gadar in 531.

6. XII Lightning Legion (Legio XII Fulminata), located in Melitien, a city fortified with Justinian: in the VI. there was a squad of romeevs, possibly connected by tradition with the twelfth legion;

7. At the end of VI. in the city of Asim, standing on the same tributary of the Danube, "from ancient times" was a military unit with its gang. Perhaps it is the Limits or arithms of the master of the army of Thrace [Theophylact Simokatta History. Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. M., 1996.C.182-183.];

8. It can be assumed that in Egypt in the VI. preserved most of the parts listed at the beginning of Vv. So from the papyrus document 550, we know about the "legion" of the Egyptian Siena. According to the “List of Positions” in Egypt, the Limitsky Comitat had only two legions, and Duxa Thevais did not have them, Ala I Herculia, Ala V Raetorum, Ala VII Sarmatarum stood in Egyptian Siena. [Van Burchem D. The Roman army in the era of Diocletian and Constantine / trans. with fr. A. V. Bannikov. S.-Pb., 2005].

9. Formally, on paper existed a framed Legio I Adiutrix, among which were civil servants. [Schamp J. Notice // Jean le Lydien Des Magistratures de l'etat romain. Paris.T.II. Livres II et III. P.CCXIII].

The composition of the regiment or arithmetic ranged from 200 to 400 catalog stratiotes. The number of warriors in the unit was floating, and not rigidly fixed.

As historical experience shows, a hundred and a dozen in antiquity did not always equal a hundred or ten. This is the first. Secondly, for example, even in a structured Soviet army, the number of listed personnel fluctuated within a certain margin of error in a platoon, in a company, and so on. The training regiment was different in size from the linear regiment, and the number of linear regiments also varied depending on the type of troops and the location.

As for the names of the type of legion, cohort, we meet them at the authors of this period. Legion in principle, as, and cohort, terms are synonymous with squad. The cohort is mentioned by Agathius of Mirineas, Coryppus, Cassiodorus, but these references have little to do with army realities, and John Lead writes about the legion, cohort, ale, turma, as divisions of the past historical period.

It should be clearly understood that in the military structure of this period it is difficult to find parallels with the structures of the modern army. Therefore, often, such a system seems somewhat chaotic. Unfortunately, sources do not give a clear answer, and many questions remain debatable in the scientific literature. Nevertheless, some essential moments of the army structure of the Romeyan state can be singled out. Recommendations for the theoretical construction of troops in the phalanx, using the classical Greek military theory, gives Anonymous VI.

In narrative sources there is no confirmation of the use in practice of such a phalanx. As is known, the phalanx itself is inferior on the battlefield to a Roman manipular as early as the period of the Roman Republic. The combination of the first and last is the practice of the period under review.

A clearer structure of the troops of the late VI. can be seen in the work of Mauritius Stratiga, who writes that the tagma should consist of 200-400 soldiers, peace - more than 3000, a measure more than 6000-7000 soldiers:

The decimal system was the basis of the structural unit of the army. The infantry and equestrian units were built into the "tagma" in rows and rows. A number of infantry consisted of warriors of one decarche (Loja).

The Decarche could consist of ten to sixteen warriors:

I. The warriors of decarche (loha) stood in the back of each other's head.

Ii. Equestrian units were built on the 4 rider in a row.

The soldiers, both in cavalry and infantry, who were standing in each line, had, in addition to military posts, certain names:

Protostats stood in the first rank (they are decarche or illarhi, commanders of decarche).

Epistatus stood in the second rank.

Pentarch stood in the middle rank, this is the commander of the five.

Uragi stood in the last rank, watched and encouraged the warriors to battle.

The highest officers consisted of chiliarchs: commanders of thousands, duxes, commanders of border districts, corresponding to them, but occupying a higher rank - military committees (comes rei militaris), the future emperor Justin went through this post during the 502-506 war.

The common name for senior officers is probably from the middle of the 6th century. there were taxi drivers, for junior officers - lohagi.

The master of army or stratilates was the commander of one of four, and later five districts (armies). The specific guard units of the officers had their posts.
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  1. +4
    3 March 2019 07: 04
    By this time, the Greek name for main grassroots (by analogy with the legion), which we call a regiment (tagma), is a schola in the guard, an arithm (αριθμός) or a number in the infantry. In the cavalry - gang.

    Here it turns out where it came from ....

    But Byzantium existed for almost a thousand years after the period described.
    What remains of the described army, to an end?
  2. +2
    3 March 2019 10: 04
    The structure is of course good. But, if, for example, the Gerul squad (light infantry), with its tribal leader, such as Filemut, participated in battles in Italy or the Middle East, it was called tagma; and if, when suppressing the rebellion ("Nika"), in the capital of the Empire, there is already a schola of the Escuvites ... With the same composition, weapons, tactics and commander. The terms and titles do not carry for the most part any meaning, this is simple, roughly speaking accounting and bureaucratic terms for accounting and recording of various divisions. The real reform came about only with the introduction of the "Fem" system, much later ..
  3. +2
    3 March 2019 14: 56
    The site administration cannot find worthy authors in the "History" section. On the left flank, Baranovsky, copying and pasting Wikipedia with a huge number of errors, on the right - noun names like today's Vaschenko, who seem to have undertaken to cover an interesting topic - the army of Byzantium during the period of Justinian's reforms, on the right, but the author, possessing information, does not know the syllable ...
    1. +2
      3 March 2019 15: 18
      Alas, Viktor Nikolaevich, alas again, but you can’t argue with you ....
      So do not worry about sad things, let’s go visit Mikhail (the Trilobite Master) today he has another article about Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, and a good discussion is planned!
      Regards, Kote!
    2. 0
      3 March 2019 16: 16
      The site administration cannot in any way find worthy authors in the "History" section

      Criticizing is easy.
      Try to write yourself.
      1. +1
        3 March 2019 16: 24
        But I do not need to try, including on this site.
      2. 0
        3 March 2019 21: 12
        Quote: lucul
        The site administration cannot in any way find worthy authors in the "History" section

        Criticizing is easy.
        Try to write yourself.

        I don’t remember which smart one said that criticism should not be accepted with heart and gall, but with mind and gratitude! Then there will be no stomach ulcers and lumps from unexplored errors. Since it is human nature to comprehend the new and it is better to do this while studying than teaching !!!
  4. +2
    3 March 2019 17: 55
    The army of Byzantium during the time of Justinian is well shown in the novel by Valentin Ivanov "Primordial Rus", one of my favorite books!
    1. 0
      3 March 2019 21: 29
      Not good, but colorful
      1. +1
        4 March 2019 15: 00
        Quote: Ken71
        Not good, but colorful

        Colorfully ... and unproven. However, what is stated in the condemned article also has no serious evidence.
        More than half is based on a certain Strategikon attributed to Mauritius.
        In fact, the original name of Strategikon is not known; the tradition of calling the work this way goes back to its first scientific publication, prepared by the librarian of Cardinal Barberini L. Holsten and implemented in 1664 by I. Schaeffer in Uppsala. The oldest and best preserved manuscript (Codex Mediceus - Laurentianus LV-4), created on the initiative of Konstantin Bagryanorodny, is entitled Dr. Greek. Ούρβκίου τακτικά στρτηγικά, completed after 959, Codex Ambrosianus gr. 139 (B 119 sup.) Has a longer name dr. Μαυρικίου τακτικά τού έπί τού βασλέος Μαυρικίου γεγονότος, in the other three manuscripts (Paris, Neapolitan and Vatican) it is called Dr. Greek. Μαυρικίου στρτηγικόν.
        The dating of the work is also carried out taking into account indirect signs according to the instructions of the main opponents of the empire (Persians, Lombards who became enemies of the empire after 568, Avars, Slavs and Ants), as well as mention of individual military episodes. As a result, the appearance of the "Strategicon" is referred to the end of the reign of Mauritius or the reign of Foki.
        There are references to Josephus. Who wrote:
        ? And the power of the Romans, on the contrary, in all the inhabited earth is invincible. But all this was still not enough for them, and their desires went further; the whole Euphrates in the east, the Danube in the north, in the south of Libya, which they cut to the deserts, and Hades in the west - all this did not satisfy them; they found a new light on the other side of the ocean and transferred their weapons to hitherto unknown riches. And you? Are you richer than Gauls ‚braver than Germans‚ smarter than Hellenes and more numerous than all nations on earth?

        It goes without saying that I will mention Armenian historians. But .... but all nations in the process of writing have gone from simple to complex. All written peoples, with the exception of the Incas, who used rope writing, and maybe even those peoples who wrote on palm leaves, had a period of manuscripts in the form of scrolls. Today, millions of written scrolls are stored in world museums (and scrolls, this is exactly the first thing DOCUMENTS are).
        But all over the world there is not a single scroll in Armenian !!!!
        And this problem is recognized by the Armenian archivists themselves. It is very easy to see this. You just type in the GUGL "there are no Armenian manuscripts of the scrolls" and you get bitter complaints from your archivists that: "The Armenians did not find the manuscripts wrapped in the form of scrolls."

        All Armenian "ancient" manuscripts are book-format and book-like. They were called the words "matyan" or "girk". There are no manuscripts wrapped in the form of scrolls in Armenian.

        However, in the entire writing world, all documents up to the 17th and 18th centuries, that is, up to the invention of postal envelopes, were written on separate sheets of paper, which implies their subsequent wrapping in the form of a scroll and its sealing. Even special cases were produced for transporting documents in the form of scrolls. Just look at the painting by John Trumbull "The Signing of the US Declaration of Independence", written in 1819 - in this picture we see the US Declaration of Independence itself in the form of a scroll !!!!!
        Well, Armenia is probably just a "unique" country, the only one in the world that in its "many thousand-year history" managed to do without written DOCUMENTS at all! But with a mass of supposedly ancient "handwritten books". But all of them, as I indicated, do not carry any historical information, since all of them, like a sin, are books of religious content, medical books, textbooks, and so on.
        So, the beautifully intertwined book-format "ancient chronicles in the Armenian language" have exactly the same relation to antiquity as the hypothetical "ancient photographs" of your neighbors.
        Alas, in real life this does not happen!

        That's all.
        Oh yes, they mentioned a Decree and Novella Justinian.
        Justinian, with his novel of March 9, 542, commanded the dissolution of such personal squads of commanders,
        Can someone boast that he knows the person who admitted that he saw the original Novella or Decree?
        1. +1
          5 March 2019 00: 41
          Just type in the GUGL "there are no Armenian manuscripts of the scrolls"

          Scored. Not a single sensible link received. None. Exclusively your copy / paste about "all over the world ..., mail envelopes, declaration of independence, blah blah blah"
          Not a single serious argument. Yes, and what is the point? The fact that the Armenians wrote / did not write scrolls? Armenians have been praying to Christ in their language since the 5th century. Some lead their Greek Orthodox church tradition after 500 years. And what do you want to say with your numerous but insignificant opuses about scrolls?!? What should prove / disprove their presence / absence?
          1. 0
            5 March 2019 09: 34
            Yes, now I also have not found. I had to call for help a GUGL translator and search in Armenian.
            And it was also cleaned in Armenian angry But the traces still remained !!!! hi

            Nothing, I’m crawling with the help of a Google translator on the sites of Armenian archivists and there will still be traces. By the way, we must remember, I probably also scanned that page. Just where to put ????
            Armenians have been praying to Christ in their language since the 5th century.

            BC ?
            Or AD?
            Is there documentary evidence for this or that fifth century? NO !!!! And if not, then there is nothing to discuss. There is no subject for discussion. Your fantasies alone.
            1. 0
              5 March 2019 14: 06
              And what do you think the information that there are no scrolls illustrates?
              1. 0
                5 March 2019 16: 53


                I explain it for the 25th time.
                Throughout the writing world, all documents up to the 17th and 18th centuries, that is, up to the invention of postal envelopes, were written on separate sheets of paper, which implies their subsequent wrapping in the form of a scroll and its sealing. Even special cases were produced for transporting documents in the form of scrolls. Just look at the painting by John Trumbull "The Signing of the US Declaration of Independence", written in 1819 - in this picture we see the US Declaration of Independence itself in the form of a scroll !!!!!

                Well, Armenia is probably just a "unique" country, the only one in the world that in its "many thousand-year history" managed to do without written DOCUMENTS at all!
                But with a mass of supposedly oldest "manuscript books."
                But all of them do not carry any historical information, since, as a sin, they are all books of religious content, textbooks, textbooks and so on.
                In real life, this does not happen!
                You understand that your story is fictitious !!! You have a lot of religious literature, there are medical books, there are textbooks - but there is neither a state document flow, nor a private business document flow. You have never written letters to anyone.
                This is nonsense !!!
                1. 0
                  5 March 2019 18: 01
                  Judgment Mkhitar Gosha Nemeth in itself historical information?
                  http://expositions.nlr.ru/armen_manus/
                2. 0
                  5 March 2019 19: 06
                  To make any statements about the lack of letters and other original sources, you need to study the matter a bit. Despite the fact that these exhibits are not digitized and cannot be found electronically, nothing prevents you from going to Venice, to the island of St. Lazarus, to the order of monastic mkhitarists. They have collected a vast library where you can see the originals: the decree of Peter the Great with the personal signature of the monarch on allowing the Armenians to conduct trade throughout Russia; manuscripts of the 429th century: a page from the work of Egishe about the war of Vardan and dated XNUMX; a letter from the Armenian king Vramshapuh, written during the life of Mesrop Mashtots, the creator of the Armenian alphabet; the agreement of the XIII century, concluded between the crusaders and the Cilician kingdom and other written sources in Old Armenian.
                  Also on the link
                  http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus5/Horen_3/frameobzor.htm
                  You can read the essay on the study of Armenian historiography by representatives of different nationalities at different times.
                  Unlike you, their published studies are based on work with primary sources, not assumptions.
                  Pay attention when and where the work of Movses Khorenatsi “History of Armenia” was published for the first time.
                  I understand that you do not believe in God, not a damn thing, but only in your participation in the Searchlight for Perestroika), but I trust more in open and reliable scientific sources.
        2. 0
          5 March 2019 01: 10
          "The Armenians," he said, "are the most intelligent, perfectly selected, most highly developed race in the world - in terms of civilization."
          Guess who said that?
          1. 0
            5 March 2019 09: 38
            Who cares who said. In the world, almost every nation has approximately the same statement regarding it.
            1. 0
              5 March 2019 14: 10
              It is one thing when a representative of the people speaks like that, boasting, another when a person speaks of a completely different nationality, and besides, he refers to those whom he speaks more likely with dislike, like you, for example. What could make you say something like this about the Armenians?
        3. 0
          5 March 2019 10: 34
          What about Sumerian scrolls and cases for them? lol laughing
          1. 0
            5 March 2019 11: 12
            But more seriously, about the Sumerian letters, search for the expression "An engraver at the origins of cuneiform writing" by A. Stepanenko and enjoy.
  5. 0
    3 March 2019 21: 30
    It is abstruse somehow almost an abstract for a dissertation.
  6. 0
    3 March 2019 23: 02
    Quote: Olgovich
    By this time, the Greek name for main grassroots (by analogy with the legion), which we call a regiment (tagma), is a schola in the guard, an arithm (αριθμός) or a number in the infantry. In the cavalry - gang.

    Here it turns out where it came from ....

    But Byzantium existed for almost a thousand years after the period described.
    What remains of the described army, to an end?

    By the time of the assault on Constaninople by Mehmed in 1452, 7 thousand people defended him: 5 thousand Greeks and 2 thousand foreigners - Venetians and Genoese. With many kilometers of wall lengths, it was nothing at all. Moreover, some European master made the sultan the supergun of those times, which, with a rate of 3-5 shots a day, steadily destroyed the wall, which the Byzantines simply did not have time to defend or defend.
    1. 0
      4 March 2019 17: 11
      Quote: faterdom
      Moreover, some European master made the sultan the supergun of those times,

      Well, the name of this designer is Orban ... The diameter of the gun, if not confused, was 800mm ...
  7. 0
    3 March 2019 23: 11
    Quote: andrewkor
    The army of Byzantium during the time of Justinian is well shown in the novel by Valentin Ivanov "Primordial Rus", one of my favorite books!

    The time of Justinian and Theodora is the heyday of Byzantium, and the last time that the western and eastern parts of the Roman Empire were united under a single authority.
    But not this, but a different act glorified this basileus: the code of Justinian. The country's chief lawyer was instructed to carefully review all laws, decrees and other regulatory legal acts issued from the 1st to the 6th century, eliminate contradictions from them, remove those that have lost their relevance and republish all this in a single code (by the way, now trying to do it Mr. Medvedev).
    What happened in the end became the basis of the so-called "Roman law", which formed the basis of the legislation of the countries of Western Europe, right up to the Napoleonic wars.
  8. 0
    3 March 2019 23: 15
    As a rule, the second or third person in the empire was appointed to the post of domestic schola - either a co-ruler (heir), or someone like the Minister of Defense if in a modern way.
  9. 0
    4 March 2019 23: 39
    It seems like a professional Presidency army died in the battle of Adrianople 376 ..
    1. +1
      6 March 2019 20: 14
      The division system of the army into palatini and comitatus continued to exist in the 6th century, but it is gradually disappearing. Although it (with other names, of course) will be in the period when the femt system prevailed, when the armies were divided into the Army of the West and the East, as in the structure of the comitatus. As for the death of the emperor and the troops during the pogrom is ready under Adrianople in 378, Amian Marcellinus writes that Valens led mixed troops from the east, picked up all the capital's guards regiments, reported by Marcellinus, on the road. Already during this period, the empire was bursting at the seams and legions were being transferred from one part of the empire to another.
      The emperor, without waiting for the legions from Gaul (did not want to wait), went on a campaign: “survived, as we know,” he writes, “only a third of the troops.” [AM XXXI.13.18.].
      The presentation army, in our opinion, is the district, it could not “die”, but nominal regiments or legions that formed the district - yes. I point to those few parts that have been preserved from previous periods.
      1. 0
        15 March 2019 22: 11
        What can you say about the interesting Byzantine names for the themes, such as Opsiky, Optimaty, Bukellarii, Armeniak etc? Obviously, they do not reflect the geographical situation, I heard the opinion that the name is associated with the name of the units moved inland from the former borders of the Roman Empire.
  10. 0
    5 March 2019 11: 10
    Quote: alatanas
    What about Sumerian scrolls and cases for them?

    Apparently also, what about clay tablets in the ancient Armenian language. And pencil cases to them.
    lol laughing
  11. 0
    5 March 2019 16: 47
    Quote: genisis
    What could make you say something like this about the Armenians?

    Similar? Considering the Everest of lies that you have piled up for centuries, nothing will force you until you start living without your pseudo-historical fantasies and stop considering yourself "ancient"; "more cultured" and so on than their neighbors.
    Here in the part of the statement. From the whole dialogue you took only what is beneficial to you. But let's see the previous part of the dialogue.

    “But,” I said, “Armenians must work. This is the secret of success, it doesn't matter, for a person or for a nation, in work, hard work. And Armenians must have Armenia to work on it.”

    “The Armenians will not work,” he said. “This is the trouble with your plan and the trouble with the Armenians. And this is the trouble of all ancient races, once civilized, who learned the rules of the game, which once, having seized and controlled the world, they lost power and degraded. They moved forward in logic, psychology, physiology. They don’t need hard work. In this they are different from the infant, truly backward nations that you Americans have had to deal with. Primitive peoples are only lazy. They can be made to work, exploit, if you want. But these outstanding nations, ex-civilized nations - they are not lazy. They are too intelligent to work for others. They exploit themselves, hopelessly, instinctively, innately.

    They are wise, as only ancient races can be wise. From the moment they open their eyes, they see the absurdity of creative labor. It is worthwhile for them to wait until material goods are produced and then somehow take them from the producers. And they know how to do this, like an animal that knows its job - instinctively. So they will practice medicine, law - any profession that, like business, gets its share of the perfect, finished form of material wealth, after the common people produce them. "

    He was silent for a moment, looking at me, and, seeing that I was not looking at him, poured another portion of his propaganda (hereinafter your text).
    1. 0
      5 March 2019 17: 57
      And what, the quotation quoted by you somehow changes the quotation by me? You did not pay attention to the phrase "trouble of all the ancient races"? Do you think Lawrence had the opportunity to form an opinion on the antiquity of a race? Was he based on any sources or just talked to people? After all, there was no Internet.
  12. 0
    6 March 2019 09: 29
    Quote: genisis
    Judgment Mkhitar Gosha Nemeth in itself historical information?

    To begin with, you would have figured out the question, is the handwriting of your character known, so to speak, to "historians". And the second question of itself will be whether at least one genuine letter written by your character has reached the time of "historical materialism". Provided that, of course, paragraph "1.
    1. 0
      6 March 2019 12: 01
      For starters, you would have sorted out the voices in your head.
      First you say that there are no written sources. I give you a link with a photo of the original. You begin - it was not written by Mkhitar Gosh. Yes, by the way, this criminal is part of the collection, at the beginning of which it is indicated that it was written in 1404 without physicists and chemists. As for whoever wrote this. Mkhitar Gosh drew up laws, and wrote a man who owned written Armenian. Thus, you are presented with a genuine handwritten text in Armenian in 1404. Enjoy.
      As for historical materialism, you carefully tried to get around the link
      http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus5/Horen_3/frameobzor.htm
      Because under this link, in the spirit of historical materialism, the historiography of Armenia is analyzed.
  13. 0
    6 March 2019 09: 47
    Quote: genisis
    the decree of Peter the Great with the personal signature of the monarch on allowing Armenians to conduct trade throughout Russia
    There is no problem with this. I myself saw the decrees of Peter, personally signed by him. Not in Venice of course. hi
    And here is the rest
    Quote: genisis
    V century manuscripts: to Venice, to the island of St. Lazarus in the order of Mkhitarist monks. They have collected a vast library ..... manuscripts of the V century: a page from the work of Egishe about the war of Vardan and dated 429; a letter from the Armenian king Vramshapuh, written during the life of Mesrop Mashtots, the creator of the Armenian alphabet; XIII century treaty concluded between the crusaders and the Cilician kingdom and other written sources in Old Armenian
    - these are fantasies.
    Before, a lot of your compatriots constantly sent me to Matenadaran and the National Museum of Armenia. However, after I clearly showed that there was nothing there, they stopped sending. Now you are starting a new epic with sending already
    to Venice, to the island of St. Lazarus in the order of Mkhitarist monks.
    lol
    Well, people's faith in miracles is ineradicable, they say, if not with us, then somewhere abroad everything is for sure. lol lol lol
    To begin with, you would find at least one person (I understand that you did not hold anything in your hands) who would admit that he personally held in his hands or at least saw close originals those rarities that you are talking about here.
    And don't need this "page dated 429"; "written during his lifetime" .. and so on. All these dating are the essence of the agreement of historians. In physicochemical laboratories, neither the material on which the texts are written, nor the composition of the writing material were studied.
    1. 0
      6 March 2019 12: 05
      I can only send you to one address that is well known to you. Open at least TripAdvisor. It is full of reviews from people from all over the world with photographs of exhibits that the mkhitarists had. But you are not a couple to them. You already know from your Khrushchev that there is nothing there.
      1. 0
        6 March 2019 15: 36
        Quote: genisis
        I can only send you to one address that is well known to you.
        But what do you yourself do not travel to this address?
        And refer to TripAdvisor
        It is full of reviews from people from all over the world with photos of exhibits,
        What prevents you from convincing yourself ???
        Believe me, if the Armenians anywhere in the world, even the Mkhitarists, even in the Matenadaran, even in the National Museum of Armenia, at least in any private museum, would really have some kind of genuine document, for example, some kind of Decree any of your "great tsar" or at least a correctly signed and clearly dated Treaty with the Crusaders or some other really ancient document, then this document would have hung in a golden frame for a long time in a museum that would have been specially built by the Armenians for this document ... And copies of the document in silver frames would hang in museums around the world. Moreover, copies of this document would be given by Armenians to various honored people of the planet and not only to honored Armenians, along with orders and medals.
        And at least once a year, the Armenians would send copies of this document to Turkey and Azerbaijan in order to hurt your neighbors once again, showing them that: "And we are ancient, this is evidence of our antiquity."
        Remember the simple truth. For physico-chemical analysis, you need the original of something, not his photograph. Especially with TripAdvisor lol lol hi
        But I suppose, after the embarrassment in the Shroud with the "face of Christ", the Mkhitarists will not give anyone a piece of their "authentic ancient documents."

        Let me remind you that despite the fact that:
        The clergy initially selected seven laboratories for research. Their list is recorded in the so-called Turin Protocol.
        Then the friction between scientists and clergy began, and the number of laboratories was reduced to three.
        Due to deviations from the Turin Protocol that the church insisted on, the sampling procedure was changed. Scientists were not allowed to be present when taking tissue, there was no continuous and documented identification of samples, the procedure was not recorded by the camera.
        Therefore, the researchers had concerns that possible random errors in the study of one of the samples would give rise to doubt the reliability of the studies (seven samples would significantly increase the reliability).
        Nevertheless, close results were obtained in all three laboratories, from which it followed that the cover was made between 1260 and 1390 years.
  14. 0
    6 March 2019 09: 51
    Quote: genisis
    Do you think Lawrence had the opportunity to form an opinion on the antiquity of a race?
    Why would I get into the brains of the long-departed Lawrence? He had the task of fighting the Turks. For this, he exalted the Arabs and, apparently, the Armenians too.
    If Lawrence lived at a different time or there would be a different situation, well, for example, if Great Britain, in alliance with Turkey, fought against Russia, it is not a fact that Lawrence would not fervently exalt the Turks.
    1. 0
      6 March 2019 12: 13
      Throughout the interview there is not a single bad word about the Turks you adore. Not a single word glorifying anyone other than Great Britain. The question is a little different. On the basis of what sources does Lawrence draw his conclusions? Judging by the confidence of his narrative, he does not doubt the antiquity of the nations he mentions.
      1. 0
        6 March 2019 14: 55
        To begin with, recall what was the thread of the conversation between the American journalist L. Steffens and Lawrence during the peace conference in Paris in 1919. The thread of the conversation was an assessment of the proposal of the Armenian delegation to Wilson on taking the United States into mandate management of Armenia.
        The interview was published in "Outlook & Independent" Oct 14, 1931 in 1931 under the title "These Impossible Armenians".
        This means that since the Armenians were the thread of the conversation, there is nowhere to go from the assessment of the Armenians.
        Now about something interesting. We read Steffans.
        I AM ( Steffans - my footnote) found that he (Lawrence - my footnote) felt inexpressible compassion, or, so to speak, a certain knowledge of the Armenians, which allowed him to understand humanly the Turks or other closest neighbors of the Armenians who had ever tried to exterminate this orphan race. It seemed that this was what he considered it necessary to do with the Armenians. He did not speak out explicitly. His method was to, without expressing himself, force me to write everything in such a way that he could deny everything if necessary. So, he did not say that the Armenians should be completely exterminated. He only made it clear to me that this would be the only solution to the Armenian problem: and this was precisely what explained his desire for us Americans to take this care upon ourselves.

        Great, huh? Lawrence of Arabia believed that the only solution to the Armenian problem would be the extermination of Armenians. And by the hands of the Americans. Well, like the Indians. At the same time, Lawrence of Arabia humanly understands the Turks and other closest neighbors of the Armenians.
        Read on.
        He believed, or suggested to me, that the Turks should not undertake this: they are too primitive and not Christians. The Greeks, on the other hand, experience excessive pleasure from this and are ineffective: they do not finish anything, and when their anti-aesthetic pleasure from beating the Armenians is satisfied, they will stop. And so with all the other ancient rival races. They stopped, not exterminating all Armenians to one. Even if they took up the matter together, they inevitably left a couple here or there: Adam and Eve, who, as soon as they seized the moment, multiplied, multiplied and multiplied. So, on the next visit to Armenia, one could find millions and millions of Armenians, humble and humble, but at the same time busy with business, and secretly proliferating, slowly spreading and spreading at night.
        He revealed to me all his Malthusian despair and horror before the Armenians, so I almost swallowed the whole thing, the whole scheme of the American mandate over the Armenians. My American humor saved me.
        "But why shouldn't the British take on this task themselves?" - I asked and, anticipating his sense of humor, smiled.

        Alas. He did not catch American humor, I think. He waited until the smirk disappeared from my face and answered seriously.
        "The literal beating of the Armenians- he objected, - will cause a scandal if the British commit it".

        Here is how. Lawrence of Arabia is merely afraid of scandal. hi
        1. 0
          6 March 2019 15: 11
          Then the conversation turned into a practical plane, Armenians will or will not work.
          Steffans
          "
          But, - I said, - the Armenians must work. This is the secret of success, whether it is for a person or for a nation, in work, hard work. And the Armenians must have Armenia to work on it. "

          Lawrence.
          "The Armenians will not work," he said. "This is the trouble with your plan and the trouble with the Armenians."

          Now he needs to justify something with his conclusion that the Armenians will not work.
          And here Lawrence calls upon herself to help the theory of ancient (already tired and degraded) races, and young races full of energy. In principle, quite a Nazi theory.
          And this is the misfortune of all the ancient races, once civilized, who studied the rules of the game, who once, having taken control of the world and controlled it, lost power and degraded.

          That's all. Lawrence of Arabia had a theory of ancient and young races. He referred to the United States as young.
          Now listen carefully and try to understand.
          If you deduce your "antiquity" on what Lawrence of Arabia once said, your own slippers will laugh at you.
          In fact, your attempts to turn to Lawrence and your attempts to send me to the Mkhitarists on the island of St. Lazarus (certainly you are sure there are all) - this is your inability to analyze and think critically.
          Believe me, if the Armenians really had some kind of authentic document, for example, some kind of Decree of some of your "great tsar" or at least a correctly signed and clearly dated Treaty with the Crusaders or some other really ancient document, then this document is already I would have hung in a golden frame in a museum that was specially built by Armenians for this document. A copy of the document in silver frames would hang in museums around the world. Moreover, copies of this document by the Armenians would be presented to various distinguished people of the planet and not only to the honored Armenians, along with orders and medals.
          And at least once a year, the Armenians would send copies of this document to Turkey and Azerbaijan in order to hurt your neighbors once again, showing them that: "And we are ancient, this is evidence of our antiquity." lol lol
          1. 0
            6 March 2019 15: 18
            Thank you for reminding me about this interview. For a long time I was going to read it carefully somehow. But what do you rejoice at, I don’t understand? Let's see what else Lawrence of Arabia says.
            Lawrence.
            “Armenians,” he said, “should not own Armenia, fertile lands. They will not work for them themselves, even for themselves. They only want to own the land as property. They will not even start organizing work and development. They will give away. land to others on a concession. They want to live on the coast, in cities, on rent, profits, dividends and income from trading in stocks and hard currency created by capital and labor. "

            Steffans
            “There are a lot of such people,” I objected, “Armenians are no exception.”

            Lawrence.
            "I see you still have not grasped my point of view," he replied. "Indeed, there are many others who would like this. The French bourgeoisie is moving in this direction, our English bourgeois, especially the so-called upper class, are inclined towards this. This is their ideal. They would like to do nothing, but they cannot. They are harmless. They only want to spend. And they spend, as you see. Even your Jews are spenders, great spenders. But your Armenians will not have anything. do and will not spend. They receive and store, they sell, but only to buy again and receive more and more. The development of such a perfect, truly commercial spirit is the result of evolution, and in evolution there are different degrees. And the Armenians are the highest degree. I tell you, if someday the Armenians get the opportunity, if they own one corner of the earth, they will take over the whole land and make the rest of humanity work. This is what the Turks know and fear, the Greeks - and everyone who knows them ".


            He again pushes me to conclude for him. I did not want to do this and forced him to continue.
            Steffans
            “So,” I retorted, “Armenia is for some of your ally, for some partner of British capital, and you leave the Armenians to us, the Americans. Great. Two questions arise: what can your ally do in Armenia without labor resources? And what the hell take it, can we, the Americans, do with the Armenians without Armenia? "

            Lawrence.
            "Oh," he said, "there are other peoples in the Balkans, Asia Minor, India and Africa - backward nations, really backward nations that will work. They can be resettled in Armenia. There is no shortage of labor resources."

            Steffans
            "So this solves a practical problem for the British," I said. "What about the idealistic, American problem? What should we do with the Armenians?" He didn't answer. His British humor or diplomatic prudence or something else would not let him. He began to talk about the danger for Asian workers or European capitalists of allowing Armenians to go anywhere where there are mines and lands.
            1. 0
              6 March 2019 15: 23
              And finally, Steffans once again mentioned the Indians.
              He (Lawrence) immediately seized on this.
              Lawrence.
              “This is it,” he exclaimed. “This is what I meant all along! Your policy towards your Indians is the only possible policy towards the Armenians ".

              Steffans.
              I was knocked over, amazed. I asked what he meant by our policy towards the Indians, and he replied that we "exterminated them all - didn't we?"
              I measured it from head to foot, as he once had. With pleasure.
              Steffans
              “So,” I said after a long pause, “you believe that this is exactly what we should do with the Armenians - kill them all to one”.

              Lawrence
              "No, no, no," he corrected. "How do you, newspapermen, misunderstand and quote."

              He did not at all mean extermination as a policy. He knew that we were not capable of this. What should we do? He did not say. He circled and circled around the bush, it was tiring. But I finally swallowed the bait. He forced me to speak out and did not correct me.
              He definitely did not mean that we should consciously and deliberately exterminate the Armenians. In no case. He just believes that having tried all other possibilities, we will come to this. And we will do it well, leaving neither Adam nor Eve, who could conceive Cain.
              Steffans
              "But won't it cause a scandal?" I asked.

              Lawrence
              He believed not. He reminded me that we are so idealistic and philanthropic that we can do anything without losing either our idealism or our good name.
              "Was there any scandal about your Indians?
              -- he asked.
              "I believe that you Americans can do whatever you want and you will not be judged by the world or by yourself. There is something very significant in this, very useful for the world. It allows you to implement what is needed in Armenia - carefully, gradually and completely, without missing a single Armenian, and all without a scandal, not in the least worsening your opinion of yourself. "
              "And, - he hastened to add, - someone must solve the Armenian problem. I see a kind of poetry, a kind policy that the most idealistic nation in the world will prevail over the most practical. "

              Well, how do you find the solution to the Armenian problem according to Lawrence of Arabia, a supporter of the theory of ancient and young races? Do you like the solution?
              1. 0
                6 March 2019 16: 13
                Lawrence argues perfectly cynically. And the cynicism of his reasoning is as follows: either you will destroy all the Armenians, or you will work for them. Cynical, but honestly. I don’t understand how you came to the conclusion that he professed the theory of young and ancient races, but this is not important. The only thing that is of interest to me in his interview is his understanding that Armenians and Greeks have long been living on a planet in a civilized society. Which is actually what you are questioning.
                As for the Mkhitarists, your conclusions are very vividly reminiscent of the story "Pasternak did not read, but I condemn." That is, you were not, did not see, but you know for sure that all this is not true))
                Well, this is a great illustration of the level of discussion.
                And finally, the third time I ask. Have you read the material on the link about the historiography of Armenia? After all, it contains the work of people who worked directly with the primary sources, the existence of which you so vehemently deny.
  15. 0
    6 March 2019 16: 37
    Quote: genisis
    And finally, the third time I ask. Have you read the material on the link about the historiography of Armenia? After all, it contains the work of people who worked directly with the primary sources, the existence of which you so vehemently deny.
    Do you know how many questioners I had like you? And not only in Armenia. And everyone was sure that everything is there, but with someone. And all eventually blown away. Because no one of the documents was able to submit.
    There was a professional historian 15-20 years ago, he taught history at some university. Nickname on the Internet "Yukon". All promised to provide me with a link to the original document of the Ancient Roman Empire. I tried to find it for three years. I even went to Italy. And on vacation and on business trips. He asked his colleagues and Italian colleagues (well, this is all, in his words, it looked something like this: "In a month, you will definitely have your nose in the morning, since my colleagues from such and such an Italian institute promised to send ... (the name of what exactly promised to send) or "I knocked out a business trip to Italy, I'm going in two months, I'll be back - I'll finally show you something so that you can finally be convinced ..." ...
    As a result, after three years, I was forced to admit that of all the ancient Roman documents, he personally found only one copper tablet in Croatia, either embedded in the wall of the house, or pinned to the wall of the house on which some centurion thanks someone Emperor for the provided land. But as an honest man, he agrees that a copper tablet cannot be classified as a document. Moreover, the house is clearly newer than the tablet.
    Two years later he died. Having stepped over a 50-year milestone. I am sure that he had a conscience. He is not you !!!!
    And leave Parsnip to yourself. For you not only did not read it, but also did not see it in your eyes. Nevertheless, you add your voice to the general powerful chorus of condemning. Because it says Ivan Ivanovich, whom you believe, because you are sure that he definitely read it. And if he didn’t read it, then he held it in his hands. And he saw that Pasternak wrote muck.
  16. 0
    6 March 2019 16: 46
    Quote: genisis
    either you will destroy all the Armenians, or you will work for them. Cynical, but honestly.
    Hmm, it turns out you agree that the whole world will work for the Armenians if you are not destroyed? As you say, cynically, but honestly? And the rest of your compatriots agree with you?
    1. 0
      6 March 2019 17: 22
      I will not speak for compatriots; I have the habit of answering only for myself.
      A little off topic, but you, I hope, will not mind.
      For a long time I could not understand why I could not find the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR on awarding the 89th SD with the Order of Kutuzov, II degree. Knowledgeable people suggested that since the beginning of 1944, decrees on the awarding of units and formations to maintain the secrecy regime were no longer published in central newspapers. However, I found a collection of these decrees.
      Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of May 28, 1945
      “For the exemplary fulfillment of the command assignments in the battles during the breakthrough of the German defenses and the advance on Berlin and the courage and valor shown at the same time, award:
      KUTUZOV ORDER II DEGREE
      89th Rifle Taman Red Banner Order of the Red Star Division "
      Now I’m writing from a smartphone, but I can’t upload pictures from it, so I'll post a scan of the Decree later.
      Thus, I consider the issue with the 89th SD completely closed, because the Division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree precisely for its actions during the storming of Berlin. And where exactly 89 SD acted during the storming of Berlin, we have previously dealt with more than in detail.
      I hope that you will not say a word to the commander and soldiers of the 89th SD.
      1. 0
        7 March 2019 00: 47
        Here is the Decree of the USSR PVA. Given the number of awarded parts, the actions of specific parts are not signed. But all parts are awarded precisely for the Berlin operation.




        1. 0
          7 March 2019 00: 48
          And the last page
        2. 0
          7 March 2019 14: 14
          If you were not so hasty and more attentive to the materials, then you would notice that in the list of parts that you presented that were allegedly awarded for the Berlin operation, there are parts that certainly were not involved in the Berlin operation. Yes, next to your 89th SD there are divisions that took part in the Berlin operation. But this is not surprising, since both the 89th SD and those on the list nearby are all parts of the 1st Belorussian Front. But among the parts of even the 1st Belorussian Front that are on the list, there are those that certainly could not have been awarded for the Berlin operation. For example, these are 28 and 56 SLAVES. All the time of the Berlin operation in Berlin and its environs, we operated from our airfields, which were located behind the front line, which was established after the end of the Vistula-Oder operation. But during the Vistula-Oder operation, the Slaves really followed the advancing troops and equipped field airfields on the territory freed from the enemy. For which they were awarded.

          You have to be more careful, more thorough.
          Now I hope that the question is closed for you for real и irrevocably bully
          1. 0
            7 March 2019 15: 25
            For example, these are 28 and 56 SLAVES. All the time of the Berlin operation in Berlin and its environs, we operated from our airfields, which were located behind the front line, which was established after the end of the Vistula-Oder operation. But during the Vistula-Oder operation, the Slaves really followed the advancing troops and equipped field airfields on the territory freed from the enemy. For which they were awarded.

            Well, fullness to you, fullness. You have to be more careful, more thorough.
            Here you are, for a truly irrevocable closing of the issue, documents of the 16th Air Army, which during the storming of Berlin included 28 and 56 slaves


            1. 0
              7 March 2019 16: 19
              So be careful. I am aware that the 16th Air Army took part in the Berlin operation. But you pay attention to the fact that the list indicates 8 areas of airbase ....... and other rear parts.
              That is, the areas of airbase - this is the rear. For all the time of the Berlin operation in Berlin and its environs, aviation, including aviation of the 16th Air Army, we operated from our airfields, which were behind the front line, which was established after the end of the Wisla-Oder operation.
              1. 0
                7 March 2019 16: 29
                Do you have something with eyesight ???
                It says: "FOR SERVICE BATTLE WORK AVIATION ... "
                Someone wrote something about the airfields from which they acted?!?
                For their actions in servicing the combat work of 16 VA in the Berlin offensive operation, 28 and 56 SLA were awarded the Order of the Red Star.
  17. 0
    7 March 2019 12: 48
    Quote: genisis
    “For the exemplary fulfillment of the command assignments in the battles during the breakthrough of the German defenses and the advance on Berlin and the courage and valor shown at the same time, award:
    KUTUZOV ORDER II DEGREE

    Are you so real .... that you don't understand what you are writing? Where do you see what is written "For participation in the Berlin operation" ??? This is not about the storming of Berlin. And about the previous Vistula-Oder operation !!! Of course the target of which was Berlin. And already at the beginning of February 1945, the Soviet army was 60-70 kilometers from Berlin. It was about this operation that they talked about the "Offensive on Berlin". And about the storming of Berlin in April 1945 they talked specifically about the "Berlin operation".
    Lord, where were you when God ... guess for yourself what you were distributing ????
    1. 0
      7 March 2019 13: 24
      And about the previous Vistula-Oder operation !!!

      That is, all the parts listed in the Decree are awarded for the Vistula-Oder operation?!?
      I do not know if you were when God handed out anything at all except aplomb.
      Do you want to be awarded for the crossing of the Oder, what you call the "Vistula-Oder" operation? Hold


      For the crossing of the Oder was awarded on April 5, 1945.
      1. 0
        7 March 2019 13: 41
        There are several other decrees that reward the liberation of cities during the Wisla-Oder operation, but you can easily find them yourself.
        To summarize, we can say that all your libel against 89 SD turned out to be lies and slander.
        89 SD blocked and forced to surrender the anti-aircraft tower garrison in the HumboldtHine Park during the assault on Berlin in May 1945.
        Zinaida Stepanova has nothing to do with the anti-aircraft tower garrison in HumboldtHine Park.
        For its actions when attacking Berlin, 89 SD was awarded the Order of Kutuzov, II degree.
        1. 0
          7 March 2019 14: 56
          Summing up, we can say that all your statements about the exploits of 89 SD in Berlin turned out to be lies and slander:
          1) 89 SD did not block and did not force to surrender the garrison of the Anti-aircraft Tower in the HumboldtHine Park during the assault on Berlin in May 1945.

          You can block (and need) those objects from which there is a threat of a breakthrough. In the Northern Fortress, people (including police generals) fled from the whole district to hide behind the thick concrete walls of the tower from shells and bullets. The garrison of anti-aircraft gunners is not a field force. They do not know how to fight in the field. Therefore, there is absolutely no need to block an object in which the Germans locked themselves in fear and from where they were not at all going to stick out.
          But what a beautiful wording: Blocked laughing laughing
          Yes, they didn’t block, but simply located nearby.
          The only combat operation is the passage past the tower somewhere further by the forces of one company. And then the operation failed, as the company stumbled upon the fighting positions of the Germans and, of course, that it didn’t go any further.
          2) Zinaida Stepanova through negotiations ensured the surrender of the anti-aircraft tower garrison in the HumboldtHine Park.

          3) For its actions when attacking Berlin, 89 SD was not awarded with anything.

          Please pay attention to one more detail. In the divisions awarded specifically for Berlin, as a rule (the expression "as a rule" means that not all in a row) either the divisions themselves received the name "Berlin", or at least one regiment received the name "Berlin". So, for example, you slandered the 52nd Guards Riga Rifle Division on 11.06.1945/52/XNUMX was given the honorary name "Berlin". This is a confirmation of the merits of the XNUMXnd Riga Guards Rifle Division in the storming of Berlin.
          1. 0
            7 March 2019 16: 21
            1) 89 SD did not block and did not force to surrender the garrison of the Anti-aircraft Tower in the HumboldtHine Park during the assault on Berlin in May 1945.


            2) Zinaida Stepanova through negotiations ensured the surrender of the anti-aircraft tower garrison in the HumboldtHine Park.

            "On May 2, 1945, when the war was practically ending with the victory of the Soviet Armed Forces, the enemy put up fierce resistance in the sector of the 52nd Riga Guards Rifle Division. Both belligerent sides suffered losses. A German citizen came to the division headquarters, who was indignant at the senseless bloodshed and asked to send representatives of the division to come to an agreement with the German command “to end the madness.” Risking her life, translator ZP Stepanova volunteered to go to the headquarters of the command of the Berlin Group of Forces to convince the Nazis of the need to immediately end the senseless resistance. the radio operator of the division headquarters Semyon Kalmykov and the staff officer. ”Many obstacles were encountered by the Soviet envoys on their way. Only thanks to the perseverance and courage of the guard did senior lieutenant Stepanova penetrate into the underground German headquarters and secure a meeting with the SS generals. At the command of the command of her division, Stepanova began to ardently persuade him of the need to order a ceasefire, but he replied in the negative. See "Komsomolskaya Pravda", May 9, 1966. The intelligence officer's persistence and common sense won. The SS leaders surrendered. So, as a result of personal courage and tremendous efforts, the brave intelligence officer achieved from the command of the Berlin Group of Forces a ceasefire and a voluntary surrender.
            Senior Lieutenant Stepanova and our parliamentarians brought a whole group of surrendered German generals and 52 officers to the headquarters of the 10nd Guards Riga Rifle Division. The personal merits of Senior Lieutenant Stepanova in this surrender of German generals and officers were very great. Archive of the USSR Ministry of Defense, f. GUK, op. 690306, d. 2180, l. 130 .. "
            3) For its actions when attacking Berlin, 89 SD was not awarded with anything.



            Will you essentially have anything?
            All your graphomaniac fantasies have been read and re-read a thousand times, you can not bother with the new one.
            Is there anything documentary on Stepanova other than fiction?
            1. 0
              11 March 2019 14: 57
              So I'm talking about the same thing.

              Even in your operational documents, it is said about the capture of up to 1000 enemy soldiers and officers.
              While it is believed that in the Northern Fortress, police officers, officials, and SS men of all stripes found shelter. All these categories were captured by our troops and considered prisoners.
              Not a single general among the prisoners is mentioned.
              For its actions when attacking Berlin, 89 SD was not awarded with anything.

              Do not make a surprised face. You perfectly understand that I spoke with you about the Berlin operation.
              Good ! If you want, I’ll clarify my wording.
              89 SD was not awarded anything for its actions when attacking the center of Berlin
              That's better ?
              Or so:
              For its actions during the offensive during the Berlin operation, 89 SD was not awarded with anything [

              hi hi
              By the way, would you like to post the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of 26.04.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX?
              1. 0
                11 March 2019 15: 05
                Saying "at the time it is considered" is tantamount to referring to "one grandmother said on the bench at the entrance." Is there evidence that the characters you listed have found shelter in the Anti-aircraft Tower?
                No. You do not have such confirmation.
                And what about the Decree of 26/04/1945?
                1. 0
                  11 March 2019 15: 31
                  If you are talking about the Decree with which the Order of Kutuzov of the II degree was awarded to the 52th Guards Rifle Riga Order of Lenin and the Order of Suvorov Division, then I can post it if necessary. Is it necessary?
                  1. 0
                    14 March 2019 13: 59
                    It is necessary. It would be informative.
          2. 0
            11 March 2019 15: 02
            Seal, the Nazis, whom Stepanova captured, were not in the HumboldtHine park, but in another place. In addition to the 89 SD and the SAP attached to it from April 29 to May 02, 1945, no other units fought against the anti-aircraft tower.
            A fairly large number of divisions and regiments that fought in Berlin did not receive the word "Berlin" in their name.
            This is your next profanity.
  18. 0
    7 March 2019 14: 39
    Quote: genisis
    For the crossing of the Oder was awarded on April 5, 1945.

    So what ? The Vistula-Oder operation is a fairly long period of time. Actually, at the beginning, no one knew when and where this operation would end. In principle, things could have turned out in such a way that Berlin would have been taken in the course of this operation. In what after the war the hero of Stalingrad, Marshal V. Chuikov, reproached Zhukov and the Supreme Command Headquarters. Therefore, there is nothing strange in the fact that during this period a presentation was made for awards of suits (and people) for individual exploits. For example, for the formation of the Oder. Life went on. I mean army life. She does not freeze: "Until the end of the operation." And once a performance was made, then an award was also made. It goes without saying that most of the awards took place after the end of the Vistula-Oder operation. But this is understandable. Until the performance reaches Moscow, until all the performances are put together, until Comrade Kalinin signs the award documents, until they print ... hi
  19. 0
    7 March 2019 14: 57
    Quote: Seal
    presentation to the awards of suits (and people) for individual feats.

    Amendment. Award presentation should be read parts (and people) for individual exploits
  20. 0
    7 March 2019 16: 24
    Quote: genisis
    Mkhitar Gosh drew up laws, and wrote a man who owned written Armenian. Thus, you are presented with a genuine handwritten text in Armenian in 1404. Enjoy.
    Yeah, I enjoyed it very well. In full, so to speak, measure. hi According to the traditional version of the story, a character named Mkhitar Gosh died in 1213 crying and almost 200 years later, in 1404 he apparently rose again wassat and began to dictate laws to a person who owned written Armenian lol lol laughing
    By the way, what, the lawyer referred to in the traditional version of history as "Mkhitar Gosh" knew only spoken Armenian? Or did this character not speak Armenian at all? hi
  21. +4
    10 March 2019 10: 51
    A small recommendation - you do not need to come up with non-existent parts, break your tongue and so on.
    There is an extensive bibliography devoted to the army of the early Byzantine Empire.
    I can enlighten. And in these works, both structure and so on are given.
    Is it interesting, first of all to the author?
    1. +3
      11 March 2019 08: 07
      I will help you.
      After all, the Byzantine army was clearly structured.
      Here are just guards to the 7th century.
      Cavalry tags:
      Scholi (scholaria) - apparently, their number decreased from 11 to 1 unit (tagma) and the total number of soldiers did not exceed 300-400. Front court guard.
      Escuvites (excavators) - was under the command of the committee of the excavations and consisted, apparently, as before, of 300 people. Palace Guard.
      Arithm (αριθμός) - cavalry tagma, supposedly 200-400 warriors, under the command of drungaria arithm
      Ikanats - cavalry tagma, supposedly 200-400 warriors.
      Hiking tags.
      Numera - obviously a detachment of heavy infantry, not more than 300-400 people.
      Sten - Most likely, this detachment of the metropolitan guard (tagma) totaled no more than 300-400 people. The so-called "Long Walls" were guarded.
      Eteria - A detachment of several thousand heavily armed infantrymen under the command of the ethereal. The Romance historians (Mikhail Psell, Nicephorus Vrienny, Anna Komnina) refer to ethereum either as "those who carry swords on their shoulders" or as "armed with axes", referring to the Anglo-Saxon and Varangian-Russian parts, respectively; the Anglo-Saxon element in the guard began to prevail from the eleventh century, after the Battle of Hastings. In terms of armament and combat method, it was a very good heavy infantry.
      Palace Guard
      Kuvikulariy - Most likely, their number did not exceed 100-200 people. The court guards (usually eunuchs) spent the night near the emperor’s bedroom.
      Candidates - A squad, probably no more than 500 people. Imperial guard; apparently existed until the VIII century.
    2. +1
      11 March 2019 18: 31
      I'm afraid that the confusion in structural issues indicates the incompetence of the author
  22. 0
    14 March 2019 14: 02
    Quote: genisis
    the fascists whom Stepanova captivated were not in the HumboldtHine park, but in another place. In addition to the 89 SD and the SAP attached to it from April 29 to May 02, 1945, no other units fought against the anti-aircraft tower.
    Says the direct participant in the events, Lieutenant General Kozin N.D.
    In fact, it turned out that the Nazis numbering up to 17 thousand with 80 tanks and assault guns broke through on the site of the 125th Rifle Corps of the 47th Army and rushed to the Elbe. Soon they were destroyed in the forests northwest of Berlin.
    The fascists who settled in the northern fortress of the Gumbolt-Hein park did not give up. They tried in every possible way to break out of the "boiler".
    It was necessary to find the enemy command and offer him to stop senseless resistance. The senior lieutenant Zinaida Petrovna Stepanova, who worked in the division headquarters as a reconnaissance translator, volunteered for this mission.
    And here on the headquarters all-terrain vehicle is a task force, in which, in addition to Stepanova, included Lieutenant Colonel P.I. Popov and radio operator Semyon Fedorovich Kalmykov, who later had to remain a "hostage" for a while, went to the fortress of Gumbolt-Hein Parkwhere the command post of the enemy was located. Two generals came to the group. At first, they categorically refused to capitulate. But after a long conversation, convincing arguments, one of which was the roar of our aircraft engines over Berlin, the generals accepted our ultimatum.
    By 15:2 on May XNUMX, the resistance of the Berlin garrison had completely ceased, by the end of the day the whole city was occupied by Soviet troops. Berlin - the fascist lair - fell. Swirls of prisoners, led by once arrogant officers and generals, wandered through the streets of the capital.


    Quote: genisis
    A fairly large number of divisions and regiments that fought in Berlin did not receive the word "Berlin" in their name.
    Well, yes, those who did not show themselves in the storming of Berlin heroically - they did not get it. It goes without saying that there were fewer heroic units than, let's say, not particularly heroic ones. Like the 89th SD.