The victory of the Russian army in the battle of the river Vozhe

138
640 years ago, 11 August 1378, the battle of the Vozhe River took place. Russian squads under the command of the Grand Duke of Moscow and Vladimir Dmitri Ivanovich utterly routed the army of the Golden Horde under the command of Murza Begich.

Before the war



In the second half of the 14th century, the Mongolian empire became an extremely loose state entity that lost its internal unity. The decline of the Yuan Empire, which was ruled by the descendants of Kublai, and of Hulaguid Iran, began. Ulus Chagatai burned out in an incessant civil war: over the 70 years, more than twenty khans changed there, and only under Timur, order was restored. Ulus Juchi, consisting of White, Blue and Golden Horde, which included a significant part of Russia, was also not in the best position.

During the reign of Khan Uzbek (1313 — 1341) and his son Janibek (1342 — 1357), the Golden Horde reached its peak. However, the adoption of Islam by the state religion led to the erosion of the imperial organism. Riots of princes, who refused to accept Islam, began, they were cruelly crushed. At the same time, the majority of the population of the Horde (like the Russians, they were Europoids, descendants of Great Scythia), remained loyal to the old pagan faith for a long time. Thus, in the “Tale of Mamayev’s Battle”, a 15th-century Moscow monument, the gods worshiped by the Horde “Tatars” are mentioned: Perun, Salavat, Reclius, Horse, Mohammed. That is, the ordinary Horde still continued to praise Perun and Hors (the Slavic-Russian gods). The total Islamization and the influx into the Golden Horde of a huge number of Arabs were the causes of the degradation and collapse of a powerful empire. A century later, the Islamization of the Horde will divide the heirs of the Great Scythia. The Islamized Eurasian part of the “Tatars” will be cut off from the super-ethnos of the Rus, will fall under the authority of the hostile Russian civilization of the Crimean Khanate and Turkey. Only after the reunification of the main part of the territory of the empire will the process of restoring unity begin, and the Russians and Tatars will become the state-forming ethnic groups of the new Russian empire-horde.

Since 1357, in the Horde, after the killing of Khan Janibek by his son Berdibek, who himself was killed a little more than a year later, "great confusion" began - a continuous series of coups and shifts of the Khans, who often ruled no more than a year. With the death of Berdibek, the Batu dynastic line died away. With the death of Khan Temir-Khoja, killed by the dark mamai, married to his sister Berdibek, the Ulus Juchi actually collapsed. Mamai and his “hand-made” Khan Abdullah entrenched on the right bank of the Volga. Horde finally split into several independent possessions.

The White Horde maintained its unity. Its ruler, Urus Khan, led the warrior for the reunification of the Juchi ulus and successfully defended his borders against Timur’s attempts to extend his influence north of the Syr Darya. One day, as a result of a conflict with Urus Khan, the ruler of Mangyshlak Tui-Khoja-Oglan lost his head, and his son Tokhtamysh, the prince from the house of Chingizids, was forced to flee to Tamerlane. Tokhtamysh led the war for his inheritance unsuccessfully, until in 1375, Urus-khan did not die, and the following year Tokhtamysh easily mastered the White Horde. The policy of Tokhtamysh continued the strategy of Urus-Khan, and it is based on the task of restoring the Juchi ulus. His most powerful and implacable opponent was Mamai, the lord of the right bank of the Volga and the Black Sea. In his struggle for power in the Horde, Mamai sought to rely on both Russia and the Russian-Lithuanian Grand Duchy. However, the union was fragile.

Moscow Rus

In 1359, the Grand Duke of Moscow, Ivan Ivanovich Krasny, died; he was inherited by a son, ten years old, Dmitry. Moscow by that time, thanks to the efforts of its predecessors, Dmitry Ivanovich, occupied one of the most important places among other Russian principalities and lands. In 1362, at the price of complicated intrigues, Dmitry Ivanovich receives a label for the great reign of Vladimir. A label for reigning was issued to the young prince Dmitry, who ruled Khan Murug at that moment in Sarai. True, the right to reign was still to be won from the Suzdal-Nizhny Novgorod prince Dmitry, who had received the exact same label several times before. In 1363, a successful march took place, during which Dmitri subdued Vladimir.

Then Tver got in the way of Moscow. The rivalry of the two Russian centers resulted in a whole series of wars, where Tver against the dangerously strengthened neighbor was supported by the Prince of Lithuania Olgerd. From 1368 to 1375, Moscow continuously fought Tver and Lithuania, and Novgorod joined the war. As a result, when in the 1375 year after a month-long siege of the land of Tver were devastated, and Lithuanian troops did not dare to attack the Moscow-Novgorod rati, Prince Mikhail of Tver was forced to accept the world dictated to him, where he recognized himself as “younger brother” Ivanovich and in fact obeyed the Moscow prince.

In the same period, when the Horde was in turmoil, the Russian princes stopped paying tribute. In 1371, Mamai gave Moscow Prince Dmitry a label for a great reign. For this, Dmitry Ivanovich agreed to pay the “Horde way out” again. In December of the same year, the Moscow army under the command of Dmitry Bobrok Volynsky opposed Ryazan and defeated the Ryazan army. However, the emerging alliance between Moscow and the Golden Horde destroyed the assassination of ambassadors Mamai in Nizhny Novgorod, committed in 1374 at the instigation of the Suzdal bishop Dionysius, close to Dmitry of Moscow, and the new refusal of Moscow to pay tribute to the Horde.

As a result, from this moment on, Moscow finds itself in a situation of military confrontation with the Horde. In the same year, 1374, Mamai is taking a trip to Nizhny Novgorod lands. In 1376, Mamai again attacks Nizhny Novgorod. The Moscow army advances to the city, having learned about the approach of which, the Horde departs. In the winter from 1376 to 1377, the Moscow and Suzdal-Nizhniy Novgorod rati, under the command of Dmitry Bobrok, undertook a successful campaign against the Kama Bulgars. In March, 1377, on the approaches, according to some researchers, to Kazan, a decisive battle took place, where the Bulgars were defeated. According to some reports, both sides used firearms. weaponhowever without much success. One of the Horde lands was subordinated to Moscow: here the Russian governors left the Moscow governor and duty collectors.

However, in 1377, the Horde struck back. 2 August, Prince Arapsha, commander Mamaia, destroyed the Russian army on the River Piana, which defended the eastern borders of Russia and consisted of Nizhny Novgorod, Vladimir, Pereyaslav, Murom, Yaroslavl and Yuryev people. Then the Horde took and burned Nizhny Novgorod, which was left unprotected. After that, the Horde invaded Ryazan and defeated it. The Prince of Ryazan, Oleg Ivanovich, barely managed to escape.

The victory of the Russian army in the battle of the river Vozhe

Battle of Drunk. Facial Chronicle

The Russian Army

The army played a major role in the victories of Moscow during this period. Dmitri Ivanovich was able to organize a serious and efficient army. The Russian army of the XIV century was a feudal army, where the territorial principle was the basis of the organization. That is, in the case of military necessity, the Grand Duke (overlord) convened under his banner all his vassals, according to the principalities, cities, inheritances and patrimonies. Russian consisted of such units, recruited on a territorial basis, it included the unit princes, boyars, nobles, boyar children, approximate feudal lords, free servants and city militias. Detachments were commanded by large and medium feudal lords (boyars and princes). Service in the army at this time becomes mandatory, discipline is growing, and, most importantly, a more precise organization of the army itself and its management. The smallest units were “spears”, that is, the commander was a notable warrior, and several fighters subordinate to him, only about 10 people. Several dozen "copies" were united in the "banner", that is, a larger unit, which was under the command of the boyars or small princes. The number of Russian "banners" was from 500 to 1500 people. The "banner" had its own, unique banner, according to which the unit could easily be found in the thick of the battle. The Стstyles ’could perform independent tasks and be part of larger units: from стtyagi’ (from 3 to 9) formed regiments led by princes and voivods. There were several regiments (like Horde tumens) - the Big Regiment, the regiments of the Left and Right Hands (this was the traditional division of the Russian army), they also formed the Front and Guard Regiments.

An important role in organizing the Russian ratification was played by Moscow’s previous diplomatic efforts. According to the treaties of the time, first the inheritances, and then the principalities independent of Moscow, were obliged to act together with the Moscow Grand Duchy against the common enemy. “And who will be our oldest foe, then we will be a foe, and who will be our oldest friend’s brother, then we will be our friend,” was the usual formula for such “finishing”. And, from here - “will you send us, carry you on a horse without disobedience”. The 1375 war with Tver ended with just such an agreement, and both grand dukes were required to take part in joint campaigns. In the course of the same campaign (against Tver), Moscow conducted such a mobilization: as a part of the joint ratification, the troops of Serpukhov-Borovsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Suzdal, Bryansk, Kashinsky, Smolensk, Obolensky, Molozhsky, Tarusa, Novosilsky, Gordetsky and Starodubovsky principalities came forward. According to the contract, Novgorod also set up its army. According to the chronicles, a total of 22 detachments, which, apparently, were combined into several regiments, appeared on Tver. Already during the march on Tver, the troops assembled by the Grand Duke of Moscow had a single command. Such a commander was the grand duke, at the behest of which the united army of the Russian principalities was going to. It is possible that during the same period, military paintings were created - “discharges”, which regulated the number of troops, their weapons, construction, governor.

At the same time, a peculiar revival of infantry is taking place in Russia. Dense infantry formations, bristling with a hedgehog of copies, relying on the support of archers and crossbowmen in the back ranks have become a formidable force capable of stopping the enemy cavalry and giving their cavalry time to organize a counterattack. 1 — 2 lines of construction were occupied by heavily armed warriors, armed with a long spear with a long leaf-shaped tip, a sword and a dagger, a shield, scaly armor with mounts and bibs, and a quality helmet. 3 — The 4 line was occupied by medium-armed warriors, weapons — a sword, a combat knife and an ax, a hammer or a war hammer, a shield and protective armor. At the beginning of the battle in the first line, and during the attack of the enemy in 5 and 6, archers and crossbowmen marched.

Remote combat weapons during the 14th century play an increasingly important role in the conduct of hostilities. Crossbowmen and archers during the battle of the Vozhe and the Kulikovo battle played a fairly significant role in the Russian regiments. Armed with crossbowmen was the simplest crossbow, loaded with stirrup and belt hook. From the other weapons of the warriors - a cleaver, an ax and a long combat knife. Crossbow arrows bolts were stored in a leather quiver suspended from a belt. The warrior's head was protected by a spherical conical helmet, the body is covered with scaly armor with a hem and braids, over which a short jacket is worn with short, elbow-length sleeves. On the knees - protective plates. Of great importance in the complex armament of the crossbowman played a large shield with a vertical chute. The crossbowman could not only completely hide behind such a shield, but also use it as an emphasis for shooting. The role of archers in the Russian army at this time was not only preserved, but also increased.


Russian infantry: 1 - dismounted commander, 2 - heavily armed footchanger, 3 - medium-armed infantryman, 4 - crossbowman, 5 - archer, 6 - trumpeter, 7 - drummer. Source: A. Shcherbakov. Battle of Kulikovo

Battle of the Chest

The Horde in the spring of 1378, undertook a new punitive expedition and on July 24 defeated Nizhny Novgorod again. Prince Dmitry Konstantinovich closed in Gorodets and vainly begged for peace. Then Mamai, having received reinforcements, crossed the Volga and invaded the borders of the Ryazan principality. Horde took and burned Pronsk, stormed Ryazan. Ryazan region again washed with blood. It seemed that the new invasion of Batu began, and other lands would follow Ryazan.

Dmitry Ivanovich understood the danger, personally podpdel with his army on the southern side of the Oka and met the Tatars on the banks of its right tributary, the River Legends, versts in 15 from Pereyaslavl-Ryazan. For several days both troops stood against each other on different banks. Horde feared start crossing. The Moscow prince, in order to lure the enemy into a previously prepared trap, began to withdraw his troops from the river (gave breg). 11 August 1378 Horde crossed I drive and join the battle. But Dmitry has already made his army for the battle. In the center, in the depths of the forest, a moat and a rampart prepared, here stood infantry and crossbowmen, who stopped the onslaught of the enemy cavalry. On the wings were heavily armed squads. One wing was commanded by Daniel Pronsky, the other by the Moscow okolnichy Timofey Vel'yaminov. The Grand Duke himself also launched a counterattack with the main regiment. As a result, the outcome of the case was decided by a sudden strike by the regiments of the right and left hand on the flanks of the Horde army. In this case, the Horde were deprived of maneuver because of the forest fortified by abutments and swamps on the flanks, and in the rear was a river. The Horde people could not stand the direct battle and ran back to drive: "... and our people began to pursue them, chopping and pricking, and a great many killed them, and many of them drowned in the river." And on the river they were met by the Russian ship party.

It was a complete rout. Among the fallen was Begich himself and some other notable Murza and his temniki (the commanders of the cavalry corps): Khazibey, Koverga, Karuluk, Kastrok. That is, the enemy's army was almost completely destroyed - according to tradition, the Horde commanders themselves tried not to join the battle, commanding from a safe place. And here all the leading commanders died. The night came prevented the persecution by the Russians. The morning after the battle of Voge there was a thick fog. Only when he dispersed, Dmitri crossed the river and chased the remaining enemies. It was impossible to overtake them. The Russian warriors collected large booty, because the enemies in a hasty flight abandoned their tents and carts filled with various good things. The monument to the battle of Voge 1378 is the high burial mounds, under which fallen warriors are buried.



It was the first big victory of Russia over the Horde. An open and decisive uprising of the Moscow prince against the Golden Horde began, which led to the Kulikovo battle, and then the defeat of Moscow Tokhtamysh. Mamai began to gather a huge army to punish Moscow and repeat Batu's invasion. On the other hand, Mom had to repel the threat from Tokhtamysh. Thus, the participants of the big war were determined: on the one hand, Mamai and Lithuania, claiming Russian lands, on the other, rising against the usurper Tokhtamysh, trying to restore the unity of the Horde and opposing the same Mamaia Moscow and Russian lands to it.

It is worth noting that during this period the mass transition of ordinary Horde (Cossack) with their Murzians and princes to the side of Russia (in particular, Ryazan and Moscow) begins. The Islamized elite of the Horde lost the support of a significant part of the population. Orthodoxy, which absorbed much of the ancient Russian faith (the period of dual faith ended with the synthesis of Christianity and Russian paganism), turned out to be closer to ordinary Horde people than foreign Islam. The process of the formation of a new center of many thousands of northern civilizations began - from Hyperborea and Aria, Great Scythia to the Russian-Horde empire and the Russian kingdom-empire (the Soviet empire continued this tradition). Moscow for a century and a half will restore the main core of the empire (Horde), and Ivan Vasilyevich the Terrible will be the first Russian emperor.


Battle of the Voge 1378 River. Miniature of the second half of the 16th century
138 comments
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +14
    13 August 2018 07: 18
    Orthodoxy, which absorbed much of the ancient Russian faith (the period of dual faith ended with a synthesis of Christianity and Russian paganism), turned out to be closer to ordinary Horde than alien Islam. The process of establishing a new center of millennia-old northern civilization began - from Hyperborea and Aria, Great Scythia to the Russian-Horde Empire and the Russian Empire-Empire (the Soviet empire continued the same tradition). In a century and a half, Moscow will restore the main core of the empire (Horde), and Ivan the Terrible will become the first Russian emperor.
    "Yakov's cow hardened everything about one thing and about everyone!"

    When captions are made under the figures, they indicate not the source, but their author. In this case: I. Dzys. And pointing out the source, they do so; A. Shcherbakov. "Battle of Kulikovo" (Moscow: Publishing house. 1998, p ....) It is customary, these are elementary requirements for the design of even popular materials.
    By the way, both are miniatures from the Annalistic Code. But the signature needs clarification: The front annals of Ivan the Terrible, the Tsar Book.
    1. Cat
      +19
      13 August 2018 08: 13
      Well, get ready Vyacheslav Olegovich for the ban !!!
      I have already received a warning today for criticizing the above article !!! And it turns out it's called "trolling - incitement" !!! I was ready to see something in my commentary, not even direct insult, but not trolling for sure. Or do references to academicians Likhachev and Shakhmatov contradict Samsonov's story?
      In some way I do not dispute the decision of the Admins and Moderators, they made a decision - they accepted. I realize that I crossed the border.
      Back in 2010, a similar situation was described in his dissertation by S. Slukin, who distinguished the concept of patriotism into two categories: the first is when an individual proves his belonging to patriots, every morning raising his fatherland flag on a flagpole, convincing everyone around that we are the birthplace of elephants. The second is when a person simply does his job.
      I do not know how you forum users, I like the second.
      Is it possible that if we prove to ourselves a couple of tens of millennia, come up with a new heroic past, we will be brighter, richer and we will be smarter?
      One clever man said, - "When inventing its past, society drives the first nail into its coffin, the present. Starting to believe in an invented past is the last nail in the coffin of the future!"
      Sincerely, Yours sincerely smashed drunk and stoned Vlad Kotische!
      1. +21
        13 August 2018 11: 37
        Good morning, Vladislav.
        I regret that I did not have time to read your deleted message. Whatever you wrote there, if you put a warning for it, all the more, even in your opinion deserved, it means they wrote it correctly. smile After reading Samsonov, I want to comment so much that I would not only warn myself for this, but also ban it for a day or three. smile
        Samsonov's articles are somehow boring to criticize - he writes the same thing, and accordingly the criticism is repeated. The fact that this is not history, but a certain phenomenon that needs to be studied by specialists in other fields, seems to have been agreed for a long time, nevertheless, the orgy in the style of "Songs of Ice and Fire" with dragons and "super ethnos of Rus" still continues. ..
        I haven't been commenting on Samsonov for a long time, but today I couldn't resist. Apparently, simply, he touched on the topic dear and close to me - what time was it, what kind of people - Oleg Ryazansky, Mikhail Tverskoy, Olgerd and Keistut of Lithuania, Dionysius of Suzdal and Sergius of Radonezh, and, of course, Metropolitan Alexy Byakont ... And then Samsonov with their delusional constructions of the "bright past", in which there are crossbowmen and
        high mounds under which fallen warriors are buried
        that struck me especially ... It is up to what degree it is necessary not to love, not to know, and not to understand history in order to do this ... However, as I quite rightly noted below Olgovich
        Quote: Olgovich
        the narrative looks a bit surreal description of some other, probably parallel world.

        in which the author of the article undoubtedly remains most of the time.
        In general, it seems that he came to his favorite secluded meadow in the forest, where he used to rest under the twitter of birds and the rustle of leaves, and on it right in the middle someone piled a fat pile. am
      2. +5
        13 August 2018 13: 16
        The namesake, with both hands behind and, if necessary, with legs.
      3. +1
        14 August 2018 19: 34
        convincing everyone around that we are the birthplace of elephants.

        Are we the homeland of walruses?
      4. 0
        14 August 2018 19: 46
        unite in Dzhuchiev ulus - right to the Volga region, western Siberia and sowing Kazakhstan - THERE. SOLOVYEV WAS MENTIONED.
        and others will come to comprehend GREATNESS.
        everything has its time - maybe your lack of counterarguments against the "great ukrov" leads to such an interpretation of history! the wedge of wedges is knocked out or with a crowbar, BUT NOT BY ARGUMENTS AND LOGIC ((((((((((((((((((CHRONIC ARCHIVES)
    2. +4
      13 August 2018 14: 56
      Quote: kalibr
      Yakov's cow confirmed everything about one thing and about everyone! "

      Vyacheslav Olegovich, in the proverb it is not a "cow", but a "crow" - t. almost all corvids can be taught a few words (although they are far from parrots)
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 17: 43
        And here in Penza they say so ...
  3. +17
    13 August 2018 08: 01
    superethnos of Russ
    "Russian empire-horde"
    and the first Russian emperor will be Ivan Vasilievich formidable
    Russian-Horde Empire and the Russian Empire

    there is no such scientific concept or definition as "superethnos of the Rus", neither in History, nor in any other science, as there is no definition of "Russian empire-horde", etc.
    Therefore, the story looks a bit surrealistic description of some other, probably parallel world. request
    1. +7
      13 August 2018 09: 35
      This is a fantasy based on the author’s dreams.
      1. Cat
        +18
        13 August 2018 10: 39
        No dear forum users - it is we who live in a parallel and far-fetched world !!!
        In which the case of falk historians Rybakov, Yanin, Shakhmatov, Karamzin, Soloviev, Kostomarov and Tatishchev flourishes and smells foul. We read the wrong books, we write the wrong comments, we (the evil ones) demand the impossible - proofs, references to sources, archaeological artifacts from the only "correct", the only "correct" and many, many ......... (you can continue on your own) I have no words, only emotions ...
        Sadly, we just have to believe the "unnamed" ...
        He said that Ivan is an ampirator! Vivat to the emperor of All Russia. Hyp-Hyp Uraaaaa!
        He said that the Russian squads had crossbows! Must justify and pull the cat on the globe! Himself said ........ !!!
        He said that since the Batu invasion in Eurasia, there has been a civil war between Russia-Hordes and Russia-not-Hordes! Should.......
        No Tatar-Mongols. Yes sir! Cut those who disagree ....
        Sadly, I can't drink so much, smoke and get stoned to accept the "only" argument of the author of the article that the 15th century source "The Legend of the Mama Massacre" says that "filthy pagans" believed in Perun and Svyatovit, which means they are the descendants of the Scythians!
        A stupid question? Scythians - also believed in Perun and Svyatovit. Maybe throw a link to at least one Greek source, as the Scythians make sacrifices to Perun or gifts to Svyatovit.
        Or is it the truth of Shakhmatov's conclusion, who wrote ".... naturally the monk compiler of the Legend condemning the Horde with the label" filthy pagans "based on his knowledge, except for the" Mohammedan "faith, hung on the last ancient Slavic gods" Perun "and" Svyatovit " What speaks about the liveliness of the mind and the well-read of the latter "!
        Sincerely, Kitty!
        Ready for a constructive dispute, both in a personal and in a post !!!
        1. +10
          13 August 2018 12: 24
          Quote: Kotischa
          Ready for a constructive dispute, both in a personal and in a post !!!

          A constructive dispute about the work of the aforementioned author should take place on other specialized resources, such as "schiza.net" or "neuroleptic.ru".
          1. +4
            13 August 2018 12: 54
            Then not a dispute, but discussion of treatment wassat
          2. +1
            13 August 2018 18: 50
            Michael, so, regardless of the topic, did you study German at school?
        2. +5
          13 August 2018 13: 06
          Quote: Kotischa
          ... it is we who live in a parallel and far-fetched world !!!

          Uv. Vlad, the tendency of self-deception based on printed publications, forums and pseudo-historical sites, as well as on the basis of fantasy films, the number of which is darkness is a familiar phenomenon. But why stoop to discuss nonsense? Pointed to the fantasy-elven essence of the "spear"
          crossbowmen and the Mongol orc cavalry and that's enough.
          Public meetings and beliefs on the basis of such scriptures are not part of the historical discussion, but rather are the subject of a psychiatric dissertation.
        3. -4
          13 August 2018 21: 12
          Vladislav, how do you explain the absence, almost complete, of artifacts left by the "Golden Horde".
          Compare with Khorezm, Bukhara, Samarkand, these artifacts of states are incomparably less powerful than the Golden Horde, but they left behind both architectural and written artifacts. Where are the Horde, I ask you? Why, after the 500-year yoke of the Horde, do Russians have virtually no Tatar blood in their blood? Do you know any horses? Can you imagine that the Mongols traveled on horses from the Mongolian deserts and steppes to, for example, Kiev, Smolensk? Yes, and defeat the squads of these principalities. I am quite familiar with the works of Solovyov, Karamzin, Rybakov, but ... All their stories do not fit with logic, with the usual everyday logic. And, tell me, where did the Volga Bulgars go? After all, they lived on the lands of present Tatarstan. And I personally know them, but for some reason, they had Tatar in their passports, in their Soviet passports, in the column “nationality”. Why do you think so?
          1. -6
            14 August 2018 16: 22
            ... the main Jew of Russia, Ulyanov = Lenin = Blank, applied this dirty rake in 1920 .. as he * organized * Mongolia in 1920 ..
          2. +1
            14 August 2018 17: 54
            When will you get out of your middle-class, urban-settled world, a descendant of a craftsman or peasant from the Middle Ages, and at least a little understand the world of a nomad .... ??? Then, probably, you will be able to say something meaningful in this regard. In the meantime, you only have what a person usually does in the toilet. New ones like you regularly appear here again and again, and it’s extremely tiring to explain something to everyone every time, and it’s useless
            1. -2
              15 August 2018 07: 18
              ... however, it is true that some nationalities are very hooked, they are already * flattened * ..- facts in the studio .. no snot and tears ...- these are just emotions ..
          3. 0
            16 August 2018 11: 57
            500 years yoke, where did it come from?
          4. 0
            28 August 2018 19: 44
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Do you know any horses? Can you imagine that the Mongols traveled on horseback from the Mongolian deserts and steppes to, for example, Kiev, Smolensk?

            It’s interesting, but how did land development take place on helicopters and airships?
            This truly fantastic raid of the Soviet cavalrymen into the German rear continued for about two weeks: the Cossacks, who went 100 kilometers deep, destroyed more than two thousand soldiers and officers, 9 tanks, about two hundred vehicles, and they captured many trophies.

            My great-grandfather had his own carriage (he kept horses), and so, in winter he "drove" as part of convoys from the present Novoaltaysk to Tyumen (1232 km (in a straight line)), Tobolsk (1111 km (in a straight line)), and this is one way. .. He was mobilized for the war of 1905 and the unit was sent on foot (!!!) - while the war was over)))
            I personally met a man walking on foot from Lake Seliger to Vladivostok, not for the sake of records, he took a vow. At the time of the meeting, he went over 4 thousand km in 8 months with all the stops (including lying in the hospital). - here's how it turns out.
            Probably you are not very familiar with horses, horse-drawn carts and with cavalry in general, otherwise you would not have pulled up the "theory of origin" by the ears
        4. -1
          16 August 2018 13: 10
          ... so you may have a split consciousness - there is such a term in medicine ...
    2. +3
      13 August 2018 14: 57
      Quote: Olgovich
      there is no such scientific concept or definition as "super ethnos of the Rus",

      Andrei hi , this is not science, but folk history! laughing
    3. -1
      13 August 2018 21: 35
      Quote: Olgovich

      there is no such scientific concept or definition as "super ethnos of the Rus",

      Mm-yes, the logic is iron. While some prokhessor did not say, then there is no such thing.
      I remember that then prokhvesor asserted that the Earth on three whales sways. So what?
      I am not for the "superethnos of the Russians", I am against this kind of "arguments"
      By the way, I didn’t like the article.
    4. 0
      17 September 2018 09: 43
      Therefore, the story looks a bit surrealistic description of some other, probably parallel world.
      It does not look, it is: description
      some other, probably parallel world
  4. +5
    13 August 2018 08: 30
    The event is glorious.
    Statement - under the same sauce.

    Could the Horde have gone the wrong way of Islamization? Maybe. But this is again the same subjunctive mood.

    And it is difficult to imagine the Principality of Moscow without two spiritual leaders - the Monk Sergius of Radonezh and Metropolitan Alexy.
  5. +10
    13 August 2018 09: 13
    At first I thought that the article would be serious. But as I read about the “spears” of the Russian army and the rear-line crossbowmen supporting the offensive “bristling with spears as a hedgehog infantry” I decided that I would not pay attention to the “Slavic-Russian gods Perun-Khors”.
    I have only one question - is it possible to at least sometimes give such a source under such high-profile and loud statements? Not a picture, but a link to a more or less reliable source. The paper will endure everything, but the knightly “spears”, crossbowmen in Russia and an attempt to undermine Perun and Chorus for all-Russian use, excuse me — a historical bad man.
    How to read an article (let’s say it’s beautifully written, well-illuminated and well-reasoned) in which fantasies about someone’s super-ethnicity slip through, reservations of someone’s gods, etc., etc. Mobilizing history to argue today's claims / raising morale / self-affirmation (choose the right one) is not a story.
    1. +6
      13 August 2018 10: 05
      Quote: Mac Simka
      But as I read about the “spears” of the Russian army and the rear-line crossbowmen supporting the offensive “bristling with spears as a hedgehog infantry” I decided that I would not pay attention to the “Slavic-Russian gods Perun-Khors”.
      I have only one question - is it possible to at least sometimes give such a source under such high-profile and loud statements?

      Mr. Samsonov literally "borrowed" pearls about infantry with crossbowmen from A. Shcherbakov's "Battle of Kulikovo", as well as most of the article.
      1. +3
        13 August 2018 10: 47
        Yes, I know where he got them from. But the vinaigrette is credited :)
        1. +2
          13 August 2018 18: 53
          But the vinaigrette is an offset
          This is the author’s business card.
      2. +9
        13 August 2018 12: 40
        Aleksandr Aleksandr Shcherbakov (28 June 1932, Rostov-on-Don - 9 October 1994, St. Petersburg) - Soviet translator, science fiction writer. Member of the USSR Writers' Union (1981).
        Tales
        1. Court. Genre fiction.
        Books outside the series
        1. Runaway student Loyna ward. Genre fiction.
        2. Blue ball. Genre fiction.
        3. Gentleman from Antares. Genre fiction.
        4. Doumer. Genre fiction.
        5. Serpent. Genre fiction.
        6. Golden cube Genre fiction. To read. Download.
        7. Candidate Lt. Genre fiction.
        8. Katka (Tales of Scheherazade). Genre fiction.
        9. Cuckoo Genre fiction.
        10. Kulikov battle. Genre scientific and historical.
        11. Battle on the Ice. Genre scientific and historical.
        12. Night flight. Genre fiction.
        13. Groin antelope. Genre fiction.
        14. Working day. Genre fiction.
        15. Stories from the life of AP Balaev. Genre fiction.
        16. Shift. Genre fiction.
        17. Service. Genre fiction.
        18. The third modification. Genre fiction.
        We will not throw stones at the author of the source text. smile He did not know that Samsonov would read his works.
      3. +2
        13 August 2018 14: 46
        Khan, does Shcherbakov have a super ethnos and Hyperborea?
        1. +3
          13 August 2018 15: 07
          Quote: vladcub
          Khan, does Shcherbakov have a super ethnos and Hyperborea?

          Well, Samsonov should have added something from himself! laughing
      4. -3
        14 August 2018 16: 33
        ..Kulikovo battle and the battle of Kalka - the same battle ..
    2. 0
      13 August 2018 21: 42
      Quote: Mac Simka
      I decided that I wouldn’t pay attention to the “Slavic-Russian gods Perun-Khors”.

      Would you like to say that Perun, Khors and other Dazhbog (s) are not Russian gods?
      Then I will recommend, I will take up such impudence, - Y.D. Petukhov "By the ways of the gods"
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 21: 58
        I claim that they are SLAVIC gods. And to reserve them for some Russians is somehow strange. In exactly the same way, I can argue that Tengri / Tangra is the proto-Bulgarian god.
        1. +2
          14 August 2018 18: 00
          Khaan Tengari (Huhe Munhe Tengari) is the supreme deity of modern Mongols - actually the Mongols, Buryat-Mongols, and Oirat-Mongols .... Those who have not gone into Buddhism and even into Christianity
  6. +2
    13 August 2018 09: 34
    "Russian squads" ... "Russian troops" ... "Russians" ... Is this what the author calls people of those years for himself? Did they call themselves Russians? Yes, there was no such thing. Already got this profanation of history. Give the primary source of those years, where would appear "Russian"!
    1. +1
      13 August 2018 09: 39
      Quote: 1970mk
      Give the primary source of those years, where would appear "Russian"!

      Link, or what? laughing

      Quote: 1970mk
      "Russian squads" ... "Russian troops" ... "Russians"

      I don’t understand - you don’t like the word itself, or the truth -

      Quote: 1970mk
      profanation of history

      ?
    2. +5
      13 August 2018 11: 30
      Yes, they called it, in the singular "Rusyn". What else were they supposed to call themselves ??
      "The bewildered Mamai puffed up, I was like a tsar, beginning to create evil, his dark princes nasty call, and say to them:" Let's go to the Russian prince and to the whole land of Ruska, as it was at Batu. "
      "And I bought up with all the Russian princes and with all my might, and go against them from Moscow, although harrowing my fatherland. And I came to Kolomna, picking up my 100 thousand and 100, outstripping the princes and governors of the local. And from the beginning the world has not been such is the strength of the Ruskaa of the princes of Rus, as with seven princes. "
      "And the slaughter of evil and great, and the abuse is great, and the coward is great evil; for since the beginning of the world, this has not been the case of the great prince of Russia, as well as this great prince of all Russia. Like a rain cloud, both, Russian sons and rotten ones, and a multitude of innumerable corpses of the dead fell from both. And a lot of Russia was beaten from the Tatars, and from Russia - to the Tatars. And the corpse fell on the corpse, the Tartar corpse fell on the Christian body; sometimes you see it. Rusin after the Tatar is ganias, and the Tatar of the Rusyn is stigash. "
      1. 0
        14 December 2018 12: 01
        It is written THIS when ... a specific document "list" of which years? You delve into the great Russian literature of the 17-18 centuries. Who is called "Russian" there? Even in a Caucasian prisoner, "Orthodox-Orthodox" are screaming from captivity ... and not "Russian-Russian" .. The tribes were not called that way ... you know the name of the tribes ... everything has become "Russian" in our country since Peter the Great. .. "Russian" seafarers like Bereng Vitus, "Russian" nobility poorly understanding Russian .. "Russian" Romanovs flooded ... "Russian" subject of the "Russian tsar")))
  7. BAI
    +6
    13 August 2018 09: 34
    Crossbowmen and archers during the battle of Vozha and the Battle of Kulikovo played a rather significant role in the Russian regiments.

    But this statement is very controversial!
    There is another opinion:
    In the opinion of the famous Moscow historian - weapons expert Yu.V. Shokareva, crossbows in Russia were used mainly in the defense of fortresses and siege warfare, and the current assertion that there were numerous detachments of professional crossbowmen in the Russian armies and that during the Kulikovo battle the Russian army used crossbows, not only unproven, but also contrary to the essence of the conduct of the field battle by the Russians at that time.
    1. +4
      13 August 2018 17: 46
      You are absolutely right! For the first time, this idea about crossbows was launched through the Techno-Youth magazine by senior lieutenant Dmitry Zenin back in 1980, as well as about oak shields among peasants and swords in every hut ... And it went!
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 20: 03
        As far as I remember, Zenin in the 1980 year made quite reasonable assumptions about the number of troops, based on the ability to control the battle, a quite reasonable figure was obtained - an upper estimate of no more than 10 thousand on each side. And I don’t remember about crossbows with oak shields, if there were any, then sheer nonsense.
      2. -5
        14 August 2018 16: 45
        ... crossbows were still in the times of Christ Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky .. But there were no khans beside Rurik's descendants .. All kinds of uluses of Dzhuchi and Dzhanibekov were pulled in - obviously the national trifle claims to be the rulers of the world .. and seeks to rewrite history ...
    2. -2
      19 August 2018 15: 08
      ... I had to read that the conspiracy against Christ was led by Isaac Angel (the fallen angel, the archangel who betrayed God, Christ ..) .... Tsar Michael kills Satan, the radiant fallen angel .... Christ's wife was shot from a crossbow by hanging on the gate .. , her brothers were boarded up in a box and drowned in the sea alive ..
      Pushkin has a poem * Gavriliada * however - a whole poem about that episode ..
  8. +8
    13 August 2018 10: 01
    Read. Digested. Sorry, but the article is just at the high school level or something ... Type of victory? Of course, only apparently the author (or rather the one who is hiding behind a pseudonym) does not corny know that Vozha is far from the first victory of the Russians (not only Muscovites) over the Hordes.

    After all, could it have been something more serious?

    Quote: Alexander Samsonov
    So, in “The Legend of the Battle of Mamaev”, a Moscow monument of the 15th century, the gods who were worshiped by the “Tatars” Hordes are mentioned: Perun, Salavat, Reklii, Khors, Mohammed. That is, ordinary Horde still continued to praise Perun and Khors (Slavic-Russian gods).

    Does the author really think that a simple enumeration of deities by the Old Russian chronicler is a serious source on the religious studies of the early Horde?!?

    I am embarrassed to ask, who is Reklius then, if Mohammed is enlisted in the gods?

    Quote: Alexander Samsonov
    In March 1377, at the approaches, according to some researchers, to Kazan, a decisive battle took place, where the Bulgars were defeated. According to some reports, both sides used firearms, but without much success.
    Why is this so? Where does the infa come from, as the Russians used the fire battle in that battle? Actually, everything is very accurately known that it was the guns taken from the walls of the Bulgar that were transported to Moscow as trophies, where they were used against Tokhtamysh as well.

    One of the Horde lands was subordinated to Moscow: here the Russian governors left the Moscow governor and toll collectors. However, in 1377, the Horde fought back. 2 August Tsarevich Arapsha, commander of Mamaia, destroyed the Russian army on the Pian River,
    This, excuse me, is a complete discrepancy with historical realities and their ignorance.

    The campaign to Bulgaria was made by the Moscow army WITH CONSENT AND BY ORDER from the Horde! acting like a faithful vassal, subduing the Bulgarian rebels! And the campaign of Arapsha, the representative of a completely different group, had the goal of REDUCING RUSSIAN rebels! And not Moscow, but the Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal principality ... And, I must say, unfortunately failed, and for the banal reason of drunkenness and lack of patrols ...

    To a large extent, the anti-Moscow position of the Finnish Volga peoples played a role, the guides of which led the Arab Shah’s army in unexpected ways through the forests ...
    1. +4
      13 August 2018 10: 12
      Yes. "People are drunk for the Drunken". Also our story. And you can't get away from her.
    2. +5
      13 August 2018 12: 02
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      article just well at the high school level

      Greetings, Mikhail. With your message, you certainly demonstrated your knowledge of the historical material, but I'm afraid you didn't impress the author of the article. Samsonov's "creativity" is unshakable in its postulates and does not change from year to year, despite any critical arrows and even tubs of slop, which, in my opinion, are systematically and deservedly poured on him here.
      However, thank you for the message, let people read. Personally, I have only enough for bile. smile
    3. +4
      13 August 2018 18: 59
      but the article is just at the high school level or something ...
      Sorry, Michael, but if it will be taught at school (taking into account the pedagogical education of the author), we can all slowly move towards the cemetery.
      1. -3
        14 August 2018 17: 29
        ... an account in the battle on the Vozha River (neighbors' brawl) got a wound Yuri-George Dolgoruky (Genghis Khan = Caesar Khan (first-born-eldest son) Vsevolod, from whom he died .. Wooden cannons were used by Dmitry Donskoy = Old Testament Konstantin the Great on the Kulikov field .. - development of the Church - Sergius of Radonezh) he founded Constantinople ... Dmitry - the name given at birth, Constantine - the name given at baptism ..
        Horde - headquarters - of the military order of Rus- sia as the headquarters of the Supreme High Command .. united army ... There were princely squads, ear-flocks on the rivers, horse breeding in the Caspian steppes, and fodder preparation .., and a pit 50 km away. from each other (mail) - this is a whole military structure .. Tatars- cavalry = horse squads ..
  9. 0
    13 August 2018 10: 07
    Quote: 1970mk
    Give the primary source of those years, where would appear "Russian"!


    Svyatoslav’s campaign in Bulgaria (Bulgarian census of the Chronicle of Manasiev, 1335-45). We look at the picture:
    1. +3
      13 August 2018 13: 03
      Quote: Mac Simka
      Svyatoslav’s campaign in Bulgaria (Bulgarian census of the Chronicle of Manasiev, 1335-45). We look at the picture:
      I’m disappointed, the author calls the invaders of Svyatoslav of Kiev, who invaded Bulgaria, not Russians and not Russians, but Taurus Scythians.
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 13: 58
        I must say that the word “Russian” (graphemes, of course, are slightly different, but the sounds are those) you did not notice. And this phrase is translated - Russian attack on the Bulgarians.
        Manasius of course called the Russian Taurus Scythians. BUT this miniature, like the inscription, was made in the middle of the 14th century in Bulgaria. The book itself is by the way stored in Moscow.
        So there were Russians in the 14th century and earlier too. At least in Bulgaria they were called that.
      2. +2
        13 August 2018 17: 08
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        Quote: Mac Simka
        Svyatoslav’s campaign in Bulgaria (Bulgarian census of the Chronicle of Manasiev, 1335-45). We look at the picture:
        I’m disappointed, the author calls the invaders of Svyatoslav of Kiev, who invaded Bulgaria, not Russians and not Russians, but Taurus Scythians.

        So the Greeks and Krivichi Arimaspami (one-eyed) called and several dozen other crazy names for the Slavic tribes invented. This topic was brilliantly dealt with by Yegor Ivanovich Klassen in "The Ancient History of the Slavs and Slavic-Russes"
      3. 0
        13 August 2018 21: 05
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        not by Russians and not by Russians, but by the Taurus Scythians.

        EMNIP, in the Greek chronicles about these events, the term "grew" is found - but "Scythians" and "Tavro-Scythians" the chronicler calls the soldiers of Svyatoslav 4 times more often
        1. 0
          13 August 2018 22: 01
          Slavic language says "p (o) accelerate" and does not matter what Manasius called them.
          In the Bulgarian books they were called Russian.
  10. +3
    13 August 2018 10: 13
    Legally, conditionally, Dmitry Ivanovich opposed the separatist Mamaia. In fact, there was a battle between the two vassals of Tokhtamysh
    1. -6
      14 August 2018 11: 13
      ... idiocy: .. Dmitry Donskoy = Konstantin the Great = Khan Tokhtamysh is all one person .. The title Khan of all the descendants of the Khan Aeneas John - Rurik - Varyag - Trojan ..
      1. +2
        14 August 2018 18: 05
        Can you write in Russian ...? And then nothing is clear
  11. +4
    13 August 2018 10: 15
    Confuses the picture, which depicts warriors, including heavily armed foot spearman with a tiny shield. Could a system of such spearmen with such shields hold back the onslaught of cavalry?
    1. +4
      13 August 2018 10: 45
      Of course not. The Byzantines defended themselves with “growth” shields from shelling of light cavalry.
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 10: 50
        It’s not even a matter of defense against shelling (though. And this is very important). And in containing horse lava with a wall of shields and spears
        1. +6
          13 August 2018 11: 25
          Equestrian “lava” is in principle a less-practiced lesson in infantry construction. The cavalry of all nomadic peoples threw an enemy army with a shower of arrows, and when it fled / set off in pursuit, they surrounded and finished off. But with spears, at the ready, no one per. Spanish terti stopped the knight cavalry without any shtits. And I had to create a raider.
    2. +4
      13 August 2018 13: 07
      Quote: Sovpadenie
      Confuses the picture, which depicts warriors, including heavily armed foot spearman with a tiny shield.

      Nothing strange, at least for Europe, the fourteenth century is an almost complete departure from large to small shields due to the transition to a new technological level - when the price and prevalence of armor became different. The only question was whether there were such foot lancers in the Russian army on Vozha and on the Kulikovo field?

      Quote: Sovpadenie
      Could a system of such spearmen with such shields hold back the onslaught of cavalry?

      Of course. This is proved in many examples - that it is precisely the lancers with shields, even without additional forces, that can withstand the blow of the cavalry. But not chivalrous.
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 14: 06
        And not spears, but peaks.
        Spear fighting was never considered the main for nomads.
    3. +2
      13 August 2018 14: 54
      The author said that it was so, which means it is an axiom
      1. +1
        13 August 2018 17: 42
        And even over Woj, the elephants flew. And what - we believe.
    4. +1
      13 August 2018 21: 56
      Quote: Sovpadenie
      Confuses the picture, which depicts warriors, including heavily armed foot spearman with a tiny shield. Could a system of such spearmen with such shields hold back the onslaught of cavalry?

      These journalists did not have cameras, and therefore they painted. But our modern journalists do not write nonsense? Even worse than the then-scribe monks. When reading any chronicle, do not forget modern scribes - journalists.
  12. +9
    13 August 2018 10: 44
    What is so "interesting" you need to take inside, so that from the rather meager message "The Tale of the Battle on the Vozha River"
    Hearing the same, the prince the great Dmitri Ivanovich, having taken up many howls and went against them in his own strength. And, having crossed the Oka, down to the land of Ryazan and hiding from the Tatars at the river near the Leader, and standing, between them the river of property.

    Not many days later, the Tatars moved to this side and, striking their horses, and jumping into bones and sniffing their voices, and gossiping on gruens and poking on ours. And strike them: on the one side Timothy is an outstripping one, and on the other side Prince Danilei Pronsky, and the great prince strike in the face. Tatarov, at the same time, defeated his spear and defeated the river for the Leader, and our messengers beat them, and sukuchi, and prickles, and slaughtered them a lot, and rooted them in the river. And all the names of the beaten princes: Khazibѣy, Koverga, Karabuluk, Kostrov, Bѣgichka.

    To this end, we slept, and set the sun, and darkened the light, and the present, and the swiftness of the darkness, and it was easy to chase them over the river. And tomorrow, the speed of the velmy was great. But the Tatar and tacos were still alive in the evening, and loaf all night. The great prince at the morning service already before dinner, having followed them, and having driven them away, those who had run away. Their yards, and their tents, and their rulers, and their yurt, and their havers, and their carts, were turned over to the floor, and the goods were countless in them. But Samѣkh did not turn around - Byakhu was defeated by the Horde.

    To be able to fish out such wonderful details:
    The Horde were afraid to begin the crossing. Prince of Moscow to lure the enemy into a pre-prepared trap, began to withdraw troops from the river (gave Breg). On August 11, 1378, the Horde crossed the Vozhu and entered the battle. But Dmitry had already made his army for battle. In the center, deep in the forest, a moat and rampart were prepared, and there were infantry and crossbowmen who stopped the onslaught of the enemy cavalry. Heavily armed squads stood on the wings. Daniil Pronsky ruled with one wing, Timofey Veliaminov, a Moscow roundabout, with the other. The Grand Duke himself also launched a counterattack with the main regiment. As a result, the outcome of the case was decided by the sudden blow of the regiments of the right and left hands on the flanks of the Horde army. At the same time, the Horde were deprived of maneuver due to the forest fortified by notches and swamps on the flanks, and there was a river in the rear. The Horde could not stand the direct battle and ran back for the Vozh: "... and ours began to pursue them, chopping and kalya, and a great many killed them, and many of them drowned in the river." And on the river they were met by a Russian ship's army.
    1. +5
      13 August 2018 11: 54
      Yes, the Middle Ages it is so interesting - from a meager message in the annals often get a list of participants, the dispositions of the troops and a couple of Anka machine gunners on the flanks.
      1. +3
        13 August 2018 13: 11
        Quote: Mac Simka
        from a mean message in the annals often get a list of participants,

        In general, the names of the commanders of the regiments are known, it is not difficult to find.

        Quote: Mac Simka
        troop dispositions
        The disposition of the troops was also a classic three-part for the Russians. It is quite probable that even then the grand-ducal equestrian "yard" was allocated as an equestrian tactical reserve, which was developed on the Kulikovo field.

        And so the main thing - it is not said - that it was the battle on Vozha that laid the tactical principles used by the soldiers of Muscovite Rus over the next 200 years - to repel the Tatars' raid, standing in defense at a seemingly convenient ford, but on the high bank of the river, it is better "archery and driven in combat "- the losses are minimal, the effect is excellent.
        1. +1
          13 August 2018 14: 03
          Yes? Have you discovered warm water? Why didn’t they think of Kalki sitting out on a high bank?
          Military art is changing for a specific opponent. A few centuries before this event, the Chinese decided to build a high coast around all of China.
          1. +2
            13 August 2018 19: 51
            Quote: Mac Simka
            Why didn’t they think of Kalki sitting out on a high bank?

            Actually, there was a different opponent on Kalka, and a different time. Moreover, a good half of the troops did just that - they didn’t defend the bank of the river, but defended themselves in Wagenburg.
            1. +1
              13 August 2018 22: 19
              That's it - another time and other people. Tactical tactics appear when weapons are more or less standardized.
              So far, one has mostly peaks, while the other does not particularly need to change tactics. Archers stupidly shoot spearmen. Nada change weapons. As observed in Russia from the 13th to the 16th century. And then you need to change tactics, otherwise there is nowhere to take a special advantage.
              1. 0
                14 August 2018 22: 27
                Quote: Mac Simka
                That's it - another time and other people. Tactical tactics appear when weapons are more or less standardized.

                Another era - yes. But the weapons are almost the same. And before unification (due to machine production - even 400 years).

                Quote: Mac Simka
                So far, one has mostly peaks, while the other does not particularly need to change tactics.
                You have a too simplistic view of the military art of Ancient Russia. Yes, however, among Europeans in general. Very often, with the infantry that was hiding behind the shields and the forest peak, in which arabletchiki and archers are standing in the rear ranks, the cavalry of Asia simply could not do anything ...

                Quote: Mac Simka
                Nada change weapons. What is observed in Russia from 13 to 16 century.
                And what kind of armament has changed in Russia, can't you say? if only it degraded due to the yoke and decline of handicrafts ... "paper hats" instead of magnificent helmets did not spread from great opportunities ...

                The gunshot was generally not considered serious in Russia in the 14 century; in xnumx too. More or less, it all began with the 15 century, but there already arerebuks and muskets play a role. Well and yes - until the era of rifles and machine guns there were still centuries ...

                Quote: Mac Simka
                And then you need to change tactics, otherwise there is nowhere to take a special advantage.
                But skillful tactics - yes. All the achievements of Kievan Rus, when the Russians ratified the nomads from Asia, even in the offensive, attacking them even in field battles, did not work against the Mongol-Tatars ...

                And our ancestors began to "play from defense" - using defensive tactics on the banks of the rivers, actively using Wagenburg and then "Walk-gorod", while maximizing the activation of small arms fire (to suppress the Tatars even in it), and actively using firearms + practically abandoning heavy cavalry in order to reach and successfully catch Mongolo-Tatars in maneuverable combat.

                Actually, therefore, all the commanders in his headquarters so criticized the holy noble prince Dmitry Donskoy for his decision to go beyond the Don (since by this he violated all the tactical achievements that had just been developed against the Mongols). But - the army of Mamai was mostly not Tatar-Mongolian, but recruited from very many peoples (up to the mountains of the Caucasus, and even Armenia and Azerbaijan, although there were no "Genoese mercenaries" in it, just because of the lack of free military contingents in the Genoese fortresses of the Crimea), among the warriors there were probably a lot of infantry (or riding infantry) - and the khan's tactics were not Tatar, which our prince took into account.

                And when, after 2 of the year, Tokhta came to Moscow Russia, with the truly Tatar army, with its Mongol Tatak, then victory did not happen, they did not even have time to gather an army ...

                And Samsonov’s article is just a laugh ...
                1. 0
                  16 August 2018 09: 41
                  ... for the gifted Tatars and Mongols appeared only in 1920 through the efforts of Ulyanov = Blanca ..
            2. 0
              16 August 2018 12: 55
              ... the battle was near Moscow ..
    2. +1
      14 August 2018 18: 08
      So the writer is a science fiction ....
  13. -3
    13 August 2018 10: 48
    Thank you for the story of the relatively little-known battle!
    1. +1
      13 August 2018 11: 04
      Why little-known?

      School reading: The Battle of Vozha - and then - standing on the Ugra River.

      And such a sequence in retelling for young people is quite normal.
      1. +4
        13 August 2018 11: 59
        Between these events more than 100 years. And if you immediately mention standing on the Ugra after the Battle of Vozha, then where did the Kulikovo battle go?
      2. +1
        13 August 2018 13: 41
        and the capture of Moscow Tokhtamysh?
        1. 0
          13 August 2018 18: 42
          I hope the Battle of Kulikovo and the capture of Moscow by Tokhtamysh are known to the vast majority.

          Although the idea of ​​grouping battles and standing on the rivers - from Kalka to Ugra has a right to exist.
        2. -4
          14 August 2018 11: 22
          ..dyk had to beat the Poles out of the Moscow Kremlin .. Khan Toktamyshum = Dmitry Donskoy ..
  14. +1
    13 August 2018 13: 10
    Moreover, the main part of the Horde population (like the Russians, they were Caucasians, descendants of Great Scythia) // M-ya? And then, under the influence of Islam, Mongoloidism began to prevail among them, as among the Nogais, for example? Everything that archaeologists find for this period in the steppe is clearly of the South Siberian race, with a significant excess of Mongoloidity over Caucasoid characters.
    1. -2
      14 August 2018 18: 13
      Yes, yes, the adoption of Islam automatically entails a rapid change in appearance towards Mongoloidism .... And you did not know ..? There were great Scythian Siberian Rus with pagans with, of course, clearly Caucasoid facial features (the Russians are all the same), but how they converted to Islam, they changed right away ..... Gee
  15. +4
    13 August 2018 14: 38
    Regarding the work of Samsonov.
    I propose, before it's too late, to supplement chapter 18 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation with the article "Rape or lecherous actions in relation to history."
    In view of the particular social danger of this act, establish a punishment of imprisonment of eight to fifteen years with deprivation of the right to occupy positions related to the media and engage in creative activities for up to twenty years and a ban on crossing the Arctic Circle from the North Pole for life.
    Otherwise, the process will require much more effort to treat the affected.
    1. +4
      13 August 2018 19: 44
      Nifiga! Basement, rack, bonfire!
  16. +4
    13 August 2018 14: 53
    the main part of the Horde population (like the Russians, they were Caucasians, descendants of Great Scythia), for a long time they remained faithful to the old pagan faith. So, in “The Legend of the Battle of Mamaev”, a Moscow monument of the XNUMXth century, the gods who were worshiped by the “Tatars” Hordes are mentioned: Perun, Salavat, Reklii, Khors, Mohammed.
    Reasoning by analogy:
    the main part of the Caliphate's population (like the Arabs, these were Caucasians), for a long time remained faithful to the old pagan faith. Thus, in the Song of Roland, a XNUMXth-century French monument, the gods worshiped by the Saracens are mentioned: Apollin (Apollon), Mohammed and Tervagan. laughing
    1. +1
      13 August 2018 19: 55
      Quote: Weyland
      Thus, in the Song of Roland, a 12th-century French monument, the gods worshiped by the Saracens are mentioned: Apollin (Apollon), Mohammed and Tervagan.

      Dear Konstantin, you will laugh, but in fact the question about "The Song of Roland" and who was revered in Spain in the Early Middle Ages is MUCH more difficult than it seems at first glance.

      I am now on a completely different topic and in "another life" I have touched on this issue, and I was simply struck by some facts that one Spanish comrade cited. So far this material is not completely ready, but everything is interesting there. In general, not everything is so simple with Spanish Islam in the era of Roland, there was also a revival of paganism ... THEREFORE, THE FIRST SOURCE OF THE SONG ABOUT ROLANDA IN REGARDING THE COMPARISON OF ISLAM AND LANGUAGE WAS RIGHT, no matter how strange it may seem at first glance!
      1. +1
        13 August 2018 21: 12
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        THEREFORE, THE FIRST SOURCE OF SONGS ABOUT ROLAND IN RESPECT TO COMPARISON OF ISLAM AND PAGANISM WAS RIGHTS, as it does not seem strange at first glance!

        that, to the extent that they had a mentality at the level of the Chukchi one - after a successful hunt they smeared the idol's lips with blood, and after an unsuccessful one they beat him with a whip? In "Song", I remember, after an unsuccessful battle for the Saracens
        "Mohammed (in the sense, his idol) was thrown into a deep moat -
        he was trampled by pigs and dogs "
        1. 0
          14 August 2018 22: 47
          Quote: Weyland
          that they had a mentality at the Chukchi level - after a successful hunt, an idol was smeared with blood, and after an unsuccessful one, they beat him with a whip?

          Well, such details hardly reached laughing , but just as a fact - in the Early Middle Ages in northern Spain there was a renaissance of paganism - all the deities were recalled, from Roman and deities of the Germans who came down to the Ibero-Celtiberian ones.

          Apparently this was due to the constant intrusions and the collapse of the church way of life and Christian enlightenment ... There was a kind of bizarre such symbiosis of all pagan cults - and if the Christian Church fought against this (along with the Reconquista), then the Muslim Arabs and satisfied, and their power over these regions was not stable.
  17. +4
    13 August 2018 15: 03
    I am ashamed of the author: he recorded the prophet Magomed in pagan deities! In that case, Jesus Christ preached Islam?
    1. +2
      13 August 2018 17: 45
      What are you? They didn’t hear about the prophet Issa? That which Meriem gave birth to. And who predicted the appearance of Muhammad himself.
    2. +3
      13 August 2018 21: 14
      Quote: vladcub
      In that case, Jesus Christ preached Islam?

      You will laugh, but from a Muslim point of view, yes! According to their version, Moses (Musa), and all the biblical prophets, and Christ (Isa bin Mariam) preached Islam!
      1. +1
        13 August 2018 22: 35
        Interestingly, Christ is the only person in Islam in whose full name a woman is mentioned, while kinship in Islam is carried out along the male line
        1. -4
          14 August 2018 16: 09
          ... Islam appeared only in the 15th century ..
    3. 0
      15 August 2018 01: 45
      .. during the time of Christ, Islam did not even smell close .. Islam - a product of the 15th century - a split * of paganism * into Islam and Jewish Christianity .., this is the planting of the Vatican ..
    4. 0
      17 August 2018 10: 02
      ... Jesus could not preach himself beloved - had not yet created his own special Jewish faith - Buddhism was also not known that * paganism * .., Islam arose in the 15th century ..
  18. +1
    13 August 2018 15: 38
    And yet, what did the Arabs of the Islamic preachers do in order to Mongoloidize the Caucasian population of the Horde? Maybe some have used, respected Alexander Samsonov biotechnology to distort the appearance of the blond-haired Horde? Was the code changed genetic or injected into the skin by local residents?
    In my opinion the topic is not disclosed.
  19. +1
    13 August 2018 16: 31
    the infantry is not very Russian view)))))))))
    1. +1
      13 August 2018 17: 29
      Quote: ashnajder
      the infantry is not very Russian view)))))))))

      In the sense of? And what should be "raw and bast shoes"? normal PRINCES and CITY squads. These are Professional Warriors who were very concerned about protecting their health on the battlefield and lived in war, that is, at the expense of trophies
      1. +2
        13 August 2018 18: 38
        Well, some element of fantasy is definitely present:
        1. Crossbowman with an infantry pavez from the wrong place-time. At least the first who began to form infantry regiments was Ivan IV the Terrible.
        2. The scaled helmet of an infantry archer looks like the helmets of Polish Karacen. But again - not the time and place.
        1. +1
          13 August 2018 20: 04
          Quote: Mac Simka
          1. Crossbowman with an infantry pavez from the wrong place-time. At least the first who began to form infantry regiments was Ivan IV the Terrible.

          Well, how to skzat. Crossbows (well, at least self-arrows without rotary mechanisms) have been known in Russia since 13 of the century at least (or maybe earlier). Apparently as a loan from the Livonian and Teutonic orders - because the first tips of the arablet swamps came from the Pskov and Novgorod regions (and, in fact, against which warriors they were used).

          Paveza is a normal East European shield, if you take its Lithuanian version, and not Italian. So theoretically - maybe. But most likely - it was used not in a field battle, but in the defense of cities almost exclusively.

          Quote: Mac Simka
          2. The scaled helmet of an infantry archer looks like the helmets of Polish Karacen. But again - not the time and place.
          We will assume that Dzys did not very well depict the "paper cap" or "kuyachnaya cap", which then appeared and were actively used in Russia, as a borrowing from the Horde. By the way, the Polish scaly karatsin helmet - from the same place has roots (probably from the Lithuanian Tatars or Karaites of Lithuanian Rus).
          1. +1
            13 August 2018 22: 44
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            Crossbows (well, at least self-arrows without turning mechanisms) have been known in Russia since at least the 13th century (or maybe earlier). Apparently as a loan from the Livonian and Teutonic orders - because the first tips of the arablet swamps came from the Pskov and Novgorod regions (and, in fact, against which warriors they were used).

            I completely agree with you. Self-arrows in Russia were first found in the northwest, and then they are already found in the inventory records of central Russia. And in the south they did not take root. But I have never met a mention that they were used massively in field battles. For the defense of fortresses and monasteries - yes there.

            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            Paveza is a normal East European shield, if you take its Lithuanian version, and not Italian.

            Lithuanian paveza is a cavalry shield. But the Italian - infantry cover for crossbowmen. There is a difference in both size and weight. The illustration shows the Italian infantry paveza. Maybe the author (I. Dzys) imagined the Russian crossbowman as follows:

            4. Medium-armed foot crossbowman. (1 or, when attacking the enemy, 5-6 lines of construction).
            Weapons of remote combat during the 14th century play an increasingly important role in the conduct of hostilities. Crossbowmen during the Battle of Kulikovo played a rather significant role in the Russian regiments. In the arsenal of this warrior is a simple crossbow, charged with a stirrup and a belt hook. Of other weapons, he has a cleaver and a long combat knife. Crossbow bolt arrows are stored in a leather quiver suspended from a belt. The head of the warrior is protected by a spherical helmet without any face protection, with a chain mail. The body is covered with scaly armor with a hem and shoulders, over which a short jacket is worn with short sleeves to the elbows. On the knees are protective plates. Of great importance in the complex of protective armament of the arbalester is a huge paveza - a shield with a vertical gutter. Behind such a shield, the arbalester not only could completely hide, but also use it as an emphasis for shooting.


            I think that they looked like that on the Agincourt and Cressi field, but not at all on the Kulikovsky field and on the Vozha river. I am sure that they simply weren’t there. Especially - in the Russian army.

            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            By the way, the Polish scaly karazin helmet has roots from there (probably from Lithuanian Tatars or Karaites of Lithuanian Rus).

            In my opinion, I. Dzys painted one of the most plausible restorations. But I will not find fault. Just noted the mismatch.
            I am not an expert on the Commonwealth, but as far as I remember the Polish Karacena is a replica of the armor of the Sarmatian armored rider. Since the theory that the Polish gentry has its roots in the Sarmatians was popular in the 16th century (this does not remind you of anything. Deja Vu is simple), the Polish Hussars mowed down under the Sarmatian cataphracts. Kostpley not faith took.
            1. 0
              14 August 2018 13: 28
              Lithuanian paveza is a cavalry shield

              In the army of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, both the cavalry (manual) paveza and the heavy infantry were used.
              but not at all on the Kulikovo field and on the river Vozhe. I am sure that they simply weren’t there. Especially - in the Russian army

              Some modern historians believe that pavezas appeared precisely in Eastern Europe (the lands of Russia, the Baltic region), and from there, through crusaders, they came to Western Europe.
              So the Russian crossbowman of the second half of the 14th century could well be equipped with such a shield.
              1. -1
                17 August 2018 15: 57
                Could the appearance of the infantry pavez in Eastern Europe be more detailed? She appeared as a shield for crossbowmen. If a crossbow in Eastern Europe came along with the Teutonic Order, how is it possible that there will be a pavez before him?
      2. +3
        13 August 2018 19: 58
        Quote: svp67
        normal PRINCIPAL and CITY squads.

        Yeah. Only they did not fight on foot in the 14 century.
        1. Cat
          +3
          13 August 2018 21: 57
          What kind of beast is this "city squad?"
          1. +2
            13 August 2018 22: 12
            Friendly city militia?
          2. 0
            13 August 2018 22: 47
            This army is recruited from among free citizens, in contrast to the army recruited by the prince outside the city. That is why there were "city regiments" and "princely squads" - small, senior, etc. The same eggs sideways, only delivered from different places.
            1. Cat
              0
              14 August 2018 20: 27
              The militia recruited by the thousands, hundreds and tens of agrees. City Regiment, Vladyka Regiment agrees.
              But the city squad cannot be a priori, since it is formed around the prince, and not the city.
          3. 0
            14 August 2018 22: 36
            Quote: Kotischa
            What kind of beast is this "city squad?"

            Apparently they mean "city regiments" - which were actually both horse (from the richest merchants) and footmen from at least three to five ranks (the first three - "capable of serving in the field" - rich, slightly less rich, professional shooters, and those who was "capable of fighting on fences" - that is, only auxiliary personnel in the defense of the fortress).

            But the fighting qualities of city militias were very much inferior to professional princely squads of all ranks - both close (boyars, armored extra heavy cavalry), and older (heavy cavalry, but without armor on horses and with bows), and even younger (medium cavalry, or rather horseback arrows in armor).

            It's like in the "300 Spartans" mf - "who are you by profession? - sculptor, merchant, artist ... And who are we? We are warriors!"
          4. 0
            16 August 2018 06: 07
            ... policemen ..
      3. 0
        14 August 2018 18: 18
        The city squad is ALWAYS PERFORMANCE. And they are professionals in crafts, well, or in trade, and NEVER in war
        1. 0
          14 August 2018 19: 23
          I agree. I kind of didn’t write anything else.
  20. 0
    13 August 2018 17: 25
    Russian squads under the command of the Grand Duke of Moscow and Vladimir Dmitry Ivanovich routed the army of the Golden Horde under the command of Murza Begic.
    Mom was an Imposter, and therefore any opposition to him was taken for granted.
    1. 0
      17 August 2018 09: 27
      ... she’s neither an impostor .. Mamai = Velyaminov - uncle Dmitry Donskoy who also has the title Khan, like Dmitry .. Putin said that the right of succession was poorly spelled out, which led to a conflict of applicants for the throne ..
  21. +4
    13 August 2018 19: 02
    In general, given that the forum thread, as a rule, lives for one day, you can simply use the name as a reason for discussion.

    Something like a tear-off calendar with a place for notes.
    1. +3
      13 August 2018 21: 18
      Golden words
  22. +4
    13 August 2018 19: 40
    "during this period, a massive transition of ordinary Horde (Cossacks) begins", - again the author's drawing of an owl on the globe.
    1. Cat
      +2
      13 August 2018 21: 59
      Not for this the cat was pulled, in the first deleted comment! And they forgot to remove the owl from the globe !!!
    2. 0
      13 August 2018 22: 23
      Pulled in a vacuum, most likely wassat
    3. -1
      14 August 2018 22: 37
      Quote: Operator
      during this period, a massive transition of ordinary Horde (Cossacks) begins ", - again the author's drawing of an owl on a globe.

      With the Cossacks, incidentally, is not so simple.

      But here the author simply did not understand what he wanted to say. And the mass transitions of the Tatars, their adoption of Orthodoxy and the resettlement on the outskirts of Russia began precisely with the hara of Uzbek, when he began the active Islamization of the Horde, contrary to Yasa Chingis.
      1. 0
        15 August 2018 07: 38
        ..tatar - an equestrian warrior .. Tatars - an equestrian squad - cavalry .. Nationality Tatar appeared in 1920 - Ulyanov-Blank * re-christened * Volga Bulgars to Tatars - decree of the Central Executive Committee ..
  23. +1
    14 August 2018 17: 28
    This is what happens - there were great Scythian Siberian Rus. Almost a century and a half earlier, they punished the renegades from European Russia who converted to Christianity. Fought loot with them all this time. And then they themselves accepted Islam ... And all the same, from time to time they punished the Christian ruov for the betrayal of the Faith ....
  24. +1
    14 August 2018 17: 30
    And where is the item - SUBSCRIBE TO NEW COMMENTS ...?
  25. +1
    14 August 2018 17: 58
    why is it the russian army? Russia under Peter 1 was formed. The army of the principality \ such festivities then.
    1. +1
      16 August 2018 14: 20
      Quote: Igoresha
      Russia under Peter-1 was formed.

      I haven’t laughed like that for a long time! Oh well, really, only under Peter? Those. you do not share and do not know about the existence of Rus of Kiev, Rus of Moscow and the Russian Empire?
  26. -1
    16 August 2018 14: 24
    ..Dmitry Donskoy is Rurik’s great-grandson .. now it’s clear? ..
  27. -1
    20 August 2018 09: 55
    ... I had to read that the conspiracy against Christ was led by Isaac Angel (the fallen angel, the archangel who betrayed God, Christ ..) .... Tsar Michael kills Satan, the radiant fallen angel .... Christ’s wife - Judas was shot from crossbows by hanging from gate .., her brothers were boarded up in a box and drowned in a living sea ..
    Pushkin has a poem * Gavriliada * about that episode .., and * .. our William Shakespeare * in * Macbeth * has a hint of Christ - a man not born of a woman ... In their days there were * papers * that were later destroyed ... There is no smoke without fire, and the church itself is spiritual tolerance ..
  28. 0
    12 September 2018 09: 51
    All the same, it is more correct to replace "Tatars" with "Horde" wherever it is written, because there were practically no ethnic Tatars, and in the horde there were every creature in pairs.
  29. 0
    19 September 2018 18: 17
    Fantasy write again laughing
    What else is the Golden Horde. The Horde vassals of Tokhtamysh defeated the Beklyarbek murza squad.
  30. 0
    6 October 2018 17: 44
    both Russians and Tatars will become state-forming ethnic groups of the new Russian empire-horde
    After that, I decided not to read further. Well, the mention of Hyperborea with Aria in a mixture with the interpretation of Orthodoxy as a mixture of Christianity and Russian paganism and the image of the Russian infantry finally finished my tender psyche. smile
  31. -1
    8 October 2018 15: 53
    I got these pseudo-historical "notes" already. What is the victory of the "Russian army"? Were there Russians then? FUNNY ... and false patriotism is growing ... Call things BY THEIR NAMES.
    1. 0
      8 November 2018 11: 39
      Quote: 1970mk
      I got these pseudo-historical "notes" already. What is the victory of the "Russian army"? Were there Russians then? FUNNY ... and false patriotism is growing ... Call things BY THEIR NAMES.

      And who was then ?! belay
      Well, call them by their proper names ... and indicate the primary sources of your information !!! And then "false" comes out of your mouth !!!
      1. 0
        14 December 2018 11: 54
        What are you talking about? I don't have primary sources ... they really don't exist at all ... Generally! Fairy tales hound ... In our country, unlike Europe, there is nothing at all of those times about which "historians" argue. 99% of the population is sure that there were Kievan Rus, Vladimir Rus, etc. Although what then existed was never called ... The terms were coined 100 years ago to designate different periods. About Kiev in general there is no real data until the 13th century .. yes, and it is not spoken of as a "capital city" .. History was written under Peter the first by the Germans ... they did not find their own (why history should be written) but how they were looking .. ..