Prototype SAM "Derivacii-air defense" began to test

The first prototype of the newest self-propelled anti-aircraft missile system "Derivaciya-Air Defense" was created and began preliminary tests, the general director of the Central Scientific Research Institute "Burevestnik" (developer, part of "Uralvagonzavod") Georgy Zakamnykh told reporters on Friday.

2С38 SZAK "Derivation-air defense

There is (sample), is now at the stage of preliminary tests

- He said, answering a journalist's question at the exhibition of arms ArmHiTech-2018.

According to the developers, the ZAK-57 “Derivation-Air Defense” complex in millimeter 57 caliber will have no equal in the world. He will be able to hit air targets, covering the troops from the air, and participate in ground operations as weapons support

Experts note that the effectiveness of ZAK-57 differs little from the anti-aircraft missile system, while its production and operation are believed to be significantly cheaper. Experts also believe that the new Russian complex will probably be created on the basis of the Armata universal platform.

It is also reported that the enterprise of the nuclear weapons complex "Rosatom" - the production association "Start" named after Protsenko - is already mastering the production of shells for these complexes, reports RIA News

Comments

[Lord of the Sith]

Not to "shield troops from the air," but to shield troops from an air attack!

[Gray brother]

Quote: Sith Lord

Do not "cover the troops from the air,"

It seems that things are not so simple))) Friday is a hard day)))

[Borik]

He will be able to hit air targets, covering troops from the air, and participate in ground operations as a weapon of support. [quote] [/ quote]

The main task, participating in ground operations as a support weapon. And the fact that he can and in aviation is secondary.

[Gray brother]

Quote: Borik

covering troops from the air,

And from the sea.

[novel66]

those. flying and floating? ARE ABLE ABOUT OUR!

[san4es]

Quote: novel xnumx

those. flying and floating? ARE ABLE ABOUT OUR!

Rum ...

AU-57M "Baikal" 220-mm uninhabited combat module on the BRM-3K (included in the "Air Defense Derivation") Aug 2017 year

[novel66]

Sanya here to shoot!

[novel66]

for a man firing an aircraft gun on the ground, simulators are no way out!

[neri73-r]

I agree, I saw firsthand how ZRAK "Dagger" shoots an artillery unit, an unforgettable sight !!!

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Gray Brother

And from the sea.

from space))

[mvg]

Yes, something we get a whole zoo again, and armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, and Terminators, and Derivations, not to mention a separate cell with different tanks. Logistics will be delighted.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: mvg

Logistics will be delighted.

you are not embarrassed that for the derivation they chose the chassis of the serial BMP-3 (more precisely. Object 699, it seems to me), but did not invent something of their own, such as under Tunguska?

[mvg]

But the tanks are already on 4 platforms, Terminators on 3ekh, BTR on 3ekh, BMP 2, plus shilka, arrows, octopus and landing. A combat modules can not be counted. In which army is this?
The engines are different, the ammunition is different, even for the rifle now different cartridges. I saw caliber 8.6 for the first time.
ps: and aviation also, 24, 27, 30, 35, 57 plus Migi 29, 35, 31 and scorers. It is necessary to relocate, so the train should fly behind, or even two. And to lift a train into the air is difficult, and even loaded.

[Grigory_45]

necessary, I do not argue (I do not comment on many controversial things, because in general it does not matter). Unification is a very important thing. Sometimes even more important than fighting qualities. Here I do not argue with you, this is very urgent. But here is an example with "Derivation" - somehow Krivovast came out, don’t you?

[mvg]

So the chassis will still be changed, sort of. Anyway, an unnecessary car. 57 - a bit too much, against the infantry, aviation and UAV can not be defeated. Against the MBT is rather weak, with lightly armored vehicles and BMP enough with its 100 + 30. The fashion for uninhabited modules has gone, that's what they do in batches.
ps and our 57 ballistics are worse than the British 30's on Puma. A machine, it turns out not cheap.

[Grigory_45]

Let me argue. The arguments are as follows. Firstly, our thirty are already ineffective against imported LBTs. MBT - 57 mm into the side and pierces the stern. The ballistics of the gun are pretty good, but the survivability of the barrel leaves much to be desired. But the niche of the machine itself - such as a ZSU with a 57 mm gun - is incomprehensible. My opinion: if you need a ZSU, then the caliber is not more than 40 mm and a perfect SLA. If you want a station wagon - then hang in addition rockets. And so - neither fish nor meat

[mvg]

Ammunition must be done. Why does a smaller caliber of shaving, on a promising gun for the same Puma, have armor penetration of almost 140 mm at 2000 m and 60 to the normal, and we have 60 mm / 60? And I do not know (except for Namer and the Chinese) bmp with such armor.
TTX from the wiki. And the ammunition is small. I do not see a place for her on the field, if only export. About the SLA, well, the thermal imager is visible, it’s already good. And obviously an expensive car will be, if on Armata. Will not go into the series.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Gregory_45

But the niche of the machine itself - such as a ZSU with an 57-mm gun - is incomprehensible. My opinion: if you need a ZSU, then the caliber is no more than 40 mm and a perfect LMS.

Nevertheless, “Derivation” is better viewed not as a ZSU in the “traditional” sense. The Swedes somehow launched an infantry fighting vehicle with an 40-mm gun and explained that they had analyzed the development prospects of infantry armored vehicles and noted a tendency to increase the caliber of infantry fighting vehicles (they say, " thirty "is already too small to effectively" one on one "fight with enemy BMP). And at one time in NATO (and not only!) There was a discussion: whether to supply the troops with anti-helicopter (!) Self-propelled guns of "Srendeg caliber": they say, it should turn out quite effectively! As part of this concept, an anti-helicopter 76-mm self-propelled gun was made in Italy Otomatic SPAAG. Well, and in "Derivations" the Swedish "trend" was combined with the Italian "Wishlist" ....

[Dreamboat]

Quote: mvg

So the chassis will still be changed, sort of. Anyway, an unnecessary car. 57 - a bit too much, against the infantry, aviation and UAV can not be defeated. Against the MBT is rather weak, with lightly armored vehicles and BMP enough with its 100 + 30. The fashion for uninhabited modules has gone, that's what they do in batches.
ps and our 57 ballistics are worse than the British 30's on Puma. A machine, it turns out not cheap.

In my opinion, not just needed, but necessary!
57 mm. a high-explosive fragmentation shell from a rapid-firing gun, and even with a distance of up to 10 km. it will generally be fire!
Power 57 mm. BOPS will destroy all equipment up to MBT up to 4 km. (with which 30 mm. 300-500 meters can no longer cope).
Firing range for air targets 6 km. and an altitude of 5 km. will not give a chance to attack and front-line aviation ...
And the cost, weight and complexity of using the module is 100 + 30 mm. also not small .....

[mvg]

Do you know how many anti-aircraft artillery was in Iraq, and how many were they shot down? Never mind. What 10 km, stop dreaming, suppress a machine gun nest with a maximum of 2 km. The rate of fire is 120 rpm, the ammunition load of 200 shells .. several bursts and it is empty, I see only 7.62 machine guns. There is no match for MBT security; there are no ATGMs.
ZAK needs a radar and a computer, and a rate of fire of 5-6000 / min. And for this fool you need programmable shells for an explosion behind the wall.
The army of this class in the army is full, and on the market.

[Dreamboat]

Quote: mvg

Do you know how many anti-aircraft artillery was in Iraq, and how many were they shot down?

And how many modern anti-aircraft artillery were in Iraq? S-60 on open platforms and Shilka. The former could not bring down anything because they did not have normal target designation, the latter simply did not achieve in view of the small caliber ..
"What 10 km, stop dreaming, suppress a machine gun nest at most 2 km."
Before arguing with foam at the mouth, take a look at the performance characteristics, there are generally 12 km of ground targets. written and 6 by air! And this is already more of the coverage area of ​​actual ATGMs. Here 30x168 has a range of 4 and 2 km. appropriately allows the "carrier" to be shot with impunity from ATGM ...
"The rate of fire is 120 rpm, the ammunition of 200 shells .. several bursts and it is empty, I see only 7.62 machine guns."
And what kind of ammunition does 2A42 have at a rate of 600-800 rounds do you know? For 30-40 seconds and put them on all the equipment! It's just that no one is stealing a single queue. ...
"The security of MBT can not be compared, no ATGMs.
ZAK needs a radar and a computer, and a rate of fire of 5-6000 / min. And for this fool you need programmable shells, for an explosion behind the wall. "
Maybe, but 2.8 kg. 57 mm. the projectile can actually be made programmable, but with 30 mm. It doesn’t work at all, there is too little space for explosives and fragments.
“There are a lot of cars of this class in the army, and on the market.”
There are NO cars of this class, there are relative analogs like the old 2-barrel ZSU, which in Syria is worth its weight in gold, and the Swedish experienced BMP with 40 mm. BOFOS.

[mvg]

What is right.
12 km is a "canopy" like a howitzer. Really aiming, on motionless 3 from force. Only the turn moves, and this is a rollback. Do not get.
57 mm for this and did to create a programmable. You are right here.
Yes, in bursts of 10-20 shots, I agree, but the shell does not fall through the air from 2 barrels, in training, and not in battle.
6 through the air - also from science fiction, without radar and computing you can’t shoot 1 km. To no purpose.
What is the difference from shilka? Yes, nothing.
Cars of this class - Germany, England, South Africa, China, Brazil.
Iraq had shilka, zsu-57, an arrow-10m, and a bunch of Chinese analogs.
By the way, open fresh Helfire. 12 km It is clear that they also lie, but they fall from 5-6.

[cast iron]

Comrade, have you ever heard the term "direct firing range"? So, in a 57mm shell it’s almost the same as a 30mm one. Well, maybe a maximum of 300-500 m further. And that is not a fact. And to shoot a canopy for 12 km from 57 mm bullets without a special system like self-propelled guns is idiocy.

[cast iron]

Dreaming is not harmful. 57mm bullet is not able to penetrate even the ancient T-55 in front. It is a fact.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: cast iron

Dreaming is not harmful

Exactly.
I have a blue (in the good sense of the word) dream: Put you in the T-55, and give it a turn from Shilka, at least.
Short, just a couple of seconds
When again after that you speak - ask you about your impressions ...
It’s a pity that this Dream, unfortunately, is impossible

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Golovan Jack

I have a blue (in the good sense of the word) dream: Put you in the T-55, and give it a turn from Shilka, at least.

you start with yourself. Have you tried it already? Well and how impressions?

[cast iron]

Shilka has a 23mm autocannon. Weak in modern terms. The United States filmed a 30mm test gun against the T-55. So, she couldn’t even penetrate the side armor with a burst of bursts from the top. So your strange dreams are school-childish.

[Bad thing]

Under the Tunguska chassis both on the Torah and the Beech. The only difference is the Buk suspension on the torsion bars, Tor and Tunguska on the hydroprocessor (hydropneumatic springs)

[Samaritan]

Quote: Lord of the Sith

Not to "shield troops from the air," but to shield troops from an air attack!

This is written for foreign partners ... they still haven’t dried their pants after past novelties, and then a flying tank is on the way
... and floating:

[Samaritan]

And the Holding "High-Precision Complexes" has completed state tests of the latest SAM "Bagulnik"

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Samaritan

And the Holding "High-Precision Complexes" has completed state tests of the latest SAM "Bagulnik"

in fact, it’s the Sosna air defense missile system, the code of the Ledum. Do not confuse square with round

[Samaritan]

Quote: Gregory_45

Quote: Samaritan

And the Holding "High-Precision Complexes" has completed state tests of the latest SAM "Bagulnik"

in fact, it’s the Sosna air defense missile system, the code of the Ledum. Do not confuse square with round

And I do not advise you!

As part of the Ledum project, a new firing module with the GRAU index 9P337 was developed. This product was intended for use as part of an anti-aircraft missile system with the code "Pine"

[Grigory_45]

It is very remarkable that you confirmed my words)) OCD Bagulnik, the result is the SAM Sosna, everything is as I said, and not at all as you wrote first) I am glad that a person admits mistakes) This is so rare in modern times.
That's just

Quote: Samaritan

And I do not advise you!

they wrote completely off the counter.

[Samaritan]

Pine for overseas, us Ledum

[Grits]

... and floating:
What is worse than PT-76?

[Grigory_45]

[quote = Gritsa] The worse PT-76 [Boat with a gun - anti-aircraft gun? You would also compare the ICBMs and mortar - which is cooler than jumping penguins

[Gray brother]

Why SAM? Where is his rocket?

[Chertt]

Quote: Gray Brother

Why SAM? Where is his rocket?

Editors in their mouths hands. Under the photo, the normal signature is "2C38 SZAK" Derivation-Air Defense "

[Ushly_bashkort]

Here, too, embarrassed.
UPD Naguglil, he anti-aircraft artillery complex.

[vadim.alekseevich]

ZAK - anti-aircraft artillery complex.

[just exp]

The first prototype of the latest self-propelled anti-aircraftrocket the Derivation-Air Defense complex was created and started preliminary tests

along the way just out of habit wrote.

[Bad thing]

The campaign was again written off from the messenger of Mordovia, and there were only victims of the exam and no habits.

[vladimirvn]

Not expensive, on the basis of "Almaty"?

[Grigory_45]

How illiterate))

Prototype SAM Derivations-Air Defense

When this "Derivation" managed to become anti-aircraft rocket complex?

[rocket757]

The Yankees over there also want their super-duper shells from the failed railgun to attach to anti-aircraft!
The barrel system, Schaub is very effective in air defense ??? Something massive, slow, low flying, I believe.
Fast, shallow, high, et doubtful.

[Genry]

Quote: rocket757

The barrel system, Schaub is very effective in air defense ???

The shell is guided like a rocket, but without an accelerating stage. 150 pieces in the module.

[rocket757]

This is a different level and of course a different price. Bolshe accuracy can be achieved, like shells to Zamvoltu, super-duper but the price oooh!
Everything is simple here - tests and compare the technical and economic indicators of different systems.
That is, in fact, not tests! All sorts of lights seen!
I do not argue, I doubt it is necessary to understand!

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Genry

Guided projectile

we don’t have a guided projectile yet. Develop a projectile with remote detonation

[Genry]

Quote: Gregory_45

we don’t have a guided projectile yet. Develop a projectile with remote detonation

Take a look at the link:
https://kbtochmash.ru/press-center/articles/artic
les_26.html

[Grigory_45]

Quote: rocket757

The barrel system, Schaub is very effective in air defense?

barrel anti-aircraft guns - different. And supersonic shoot down, which in a small caliber, of course, terribly fast-firing, short-range and gluttonous. However, capable of shooting down not only

Quote: rocket757

massive, slow, low flying

[rocket757]

I know, shot! There are many restrictions, but in some cases, in fact, the price - efficiency, is justified at 100%.

[Grigory_45]

agree that now the anti-aircraft gun is justified in the form of a fast-firing machine with a caliber of 30-40 mm, with a projectile with remote detonation, which can quite efficiently bring down UAVs and low-speed missiles that go directly to the position - i.e. provide air defense and cover for a position, for example, a long-range air defense system or an airfield. Derivation, of course, does not fit into them. This is a kind of attempt to resurrect ZSU Otomatic

[Dreamboat]

And here I do not agree
ZAK on the basis of 30 mm. automatic machines and less it is not tomorrow, but yesterday. Today, they can only cope with artisanal drones and random targets, because Serious attack drones and aircraft, knowing the presence of a ZAK, work with high-precision weapons from heights inaccessible to them, and helicopters - in range (for 30 mm. this is only 2 and 2.5 km., respectively). 30 mm assault rifles remain effective as a means of cover in the composition of the CRAF type of the Shell, but not independently.
Even the old S-60 is capable of firing at targets for 5 km. altitude and 6 km. uninstalling!
About no effectiveness of domestic 30 mm. guns against modern armored vehicles and advanced robotic systems at a distance of more than 1 km. only the lazy did not write ... high-explosive fragmentation 30 mm. the infantry projectile is also low.
Therefore, at 57 mm. guns prospects are excellent, but to a greater extent on ground targets (IMHO)!

[rocket757]

The last time I worked from the receiver in the late 70s, it turned out spectacularly, the wing to the left, the wing to the right! Then only rocket technology. At the firing range I saw the shooting of the barrel, at small targets, at a short distance. Speed ​​guns are of course vesch, especially multi-barrel.
Anyway, a small caliber, a small distance. Any atmospheric factors affect accuracy. There were no such ballistic computers as now.
The caliber is more serious, the dispersion cone is larger. Yes, and ammunition is limited.
Where is the golden mean?
Ideally, a large caliber and electronic control, such as taxiing a projectile and controlled detonation, this can significantly increase the lethal effect!
The question is how much it will cost and whether we can make it technologically.
I don’t know. For a long time I’ve been working at a distance.

[Ivan Tomato]

Why SAM? Are there rockets there?

[d ^ Amir]

Rosatom's nuclear weapons complex - the Protsenko Start Production Association - is already mastering the production of shells for these complexes

ooohhh !!!!!!!! Now the waves of shit will go !!!!!! atomic ammunition !!! in caliber 57 mm !!! the Russians are coming !!!!!!!! we are behind !!!! 500 trillions are needed for development !!! violation of strategic offensive arms, etc ....... and there you are stroking and London, will anyone introduce themselves from a similar caliber ....

[Zubr]

And why is the release of ammunition mastered by ROSATOM ..!? Did they decide to release special ammunition for ZAK 57? Or have you decided to produce a subcaliber with a uranium core?

[Vadim237]

So the enterprise producing warheads with a laser non-contact fuse is part of Rosatom Corporation.

[tchoni]

And will there be a modification based on the t-72? It seems to me that we need it, for God still knows when it will appear in the army, and the armor on the chassis of the mass grave of infantry number 3 is painfully cardboard.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: tchoni

And will there be a modification based on the t-72? it seems to me that we need it, for God still knows when it will appear in the army, and near the chassis of the mass grave of infantry at number 3 the armor is painfully cardboard

and radar you also tank armor? ZSU no place in front of tanks, so then

[axxmanm]

Quote: tchoni

And will there be a modification based on the t-72?

Then you get the correct "terminator" with 57mm, and not the current 30 mm misunderstanding.

[Vadim237]

"And not the current 30 mm misunderstanding" - It all depends on the ammunition.

[axxmanm]

Quote: Vadim237

"And not the current 30 mm misunderstanding" - It all depends on the ammunition.

With an increase in the range of modern ammunition, the gap of 57 mm from 30 mm in effectiveness will become astronomical.

[Vadim237]

57 ammunition is small, 120-220 shells, against 500 at 30ki.

[axxmanm]

that 57 will need 1 shell 30 ke will need 10 ..
..not to mention the fundamental difference in range,

[cast iron]

What is such a fundamental difference in range? If you are not in the know, then the range of a direct shot at 57mm and 30mm differs very slightly. Not at times.

[axxmanm]

Quote: cast iron

What is such a fundamental difference in range? If you are not in the know, then the range of a direct shot at 57mm and 30mm differs very slightly. Not at times.

The point is not the range of a direct shot, but the range of effective firing.
For example, at a distance of 2000m 57mm
guaranteed to destroy any lightly armored vehicles.

[cast iron]

First you need to get there. And with this, even 120mm-125mm tank feathered sub-caliber ammunition has big problems. Real shooting does not lie. I personally consider the pair of 100mm and 30mm much more successful than one 57mm.

[axxmanm]

Quote: cast iron

First you need to get there. And with this, even 120mm-125mm tank feathered sub-caliber ammunition has big problems. Real shooting does not lie. I personally consider the pair of 100mm and 30mm much more successful than one 57mm.

It is much easier to get out of 57 mm high ballistics than from 100 mm low.
57 mm with the appropriate set of modern ammunition is much better than the 100/30 twin.

[cast iron]

Old tales of ammunition 57mm. Not a single 57mm PSU will blow up a block post from FBS-s - at least shoot. A 100mm blow from the first shot. ATGM from 100mm will fly into the enemy tank much more precisely, 57mm fart.

[Dreamboat]

That is right. Such a weapon must be on the Terminator instead of 2x 2A42 ... Then it really can cover it from the infantry and drive the helicopter away ....

[cast iron]

Nonsense. 21 century, and we again invent cannon defense))))

[Grigory_45]

Quote: cast iron

Nonsense. 21 century, and we invent cannon defense again)

some kind of nonsense, 21st century, and cannon self-propelled guns from all the armies of the world are still in service. Mess on! Replace everything with missiles urgently! thermonuclear!
Do you know the advantages of the cannon system?

[cast iron]

I know that by 1945, cannon defense was universally recognized as unsatisfactory. And when the first fighter jets and bombers appeared with speeds of about 1000 km / h and higher, they also began urgently designing homing missiles because it was impossible to get out of the gun at all. And to build a separate air defense system only from drones is insanity.

[Hiller]

Yes ... and then "cover the troops from the air" and again "will have no equal in the world" ... more modest need more modest ..

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Samaritan

Pine for overseas, us Ledum

Good Samaritan, Pine - for the time being for the native MO. What will be exported will be seen. Do not confuse the system name and the OCD code with the component. I can give you bundles of examples when they are different things. At least Bahcha and the Gardener. You persist in vain, we are not from evil. Also a good Samaritan) It’s just as if the site implies a correct description of BT, and not being compared to ignorant journalists.

[Old26]

I did not quite understand from the note. Still, an anti-aircraft artillery system or a missile-artillery complex. And in some places the article is generally written by SAM

[Golovan Jack]

Grigory_45

Quote: Gregory_45

Quote: Golovan Jack

I have a blue (in the good sense of the word) dream: Put you in the T-55, and give it a turn from Shilka, at least.

you start with yourself. Have you tried it already? Well and how impressions?

Do not get alarmed, I have a comrade cast iron old, ahem, graters.
I do not like "teoretoff"