Polish material about the "wars" around Rurik and the history of Ancient Rus

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One of the most widely read newspapers in Poland last week, Rzeczpospolita, published material Robert Kheda, in which the author decided to introduce the Polish readership to history Russia, namely, with the stage of the history of ancient Russia. The material is devoted to one historical person - Rurik, and it is around this historical image that the reasoning and conclusions of the author of the article “The war around Rurik: who was the creator of Russia?”

Of course, we are not a Polish audience, but if we are talking about the coverage of Russian history by foreign authors, then it would not be superfluous to get acquainted with the fact that these same Polish authors offer to understanding. Still, he writes about our history. Therefore, I think we have the right.



So, this material presents a translation of the article by Robert Kheda with some comments about the author's vision of the history of Ancient Russia.

Polish material about the "wars" around Rurik and the history of Ancient Rus


Who is he and where did the founder of the Rurik dynasty come from? What role did he play in the creation of the first state of the Eastern Slavs, called Rus?

Around the lineage of Rurik there is a constant war between the supporters of the Norman theory and its opponents. For more than 300 years, scientists across Europe have been trying to defend their own (different) points of view. All arguments range from Scandinavian sagas and Byzantine chronicles to archaeological artifacts to DNA testing. Despite the use of such an arsenal, the fundamental essence of the dispute, which, after all, belongs to the sources of national identity, still divides modern Europe.

What is the essence of the dispute?

The basis of the identity of the modern nation is its historical roots, showing the process of formation of society and the state territory. Without historical memory that goes deep into the past, it is impossible to see the value system on which the present, the future is based. An integral part of such a story is the myth of the origin. The pedigree of the authorities ancestor and his affairs greatly influence the sense of identity, creating a sense of pride and national character.
The vision of the ancestor that forms the founding act increases to the status of the most important symbol that distinguishes us from other nations. This is our own history, which gives us the right to be part of the global community of nations. Therefore, it is not surprising that the debate over the origin of the founder of the Eastern Slavic state for several hundred years caused heated emotions. In the end, the Rurik dynasty ruled by Kievan Rus, and then the Principality of Moscow, laying the foundations for modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

In fact, everything is difficult for modern Swedes, Finns, Danes, Germans and Dutch to have their own theory of the origin of Rurik. Among them is the theory of descent from the Baltic tribes. Maybe Rurik came from the emboldened (medieval Slavic alliance in the area of ​​the mouth of the Oder River)? And if he came from the Slavs who inhabited the land between the mouth of the Oder and the Vistula, did Rurik really have Polish or pre-Polish roots?




Next, the Polish author reports that he "knows for sure":

At present, we only know that neither side questioned the following: Rurik ended up in Russia around the year of 862. The persons who called Rurik were from Slavic tribes who could not cope, speaking in modern language, with the construction of effective governance. The elders of the Krivichi, Ilmenian Slovenian tribes, as well as the Finno-Ugric tribes - Chur and Murom, becoming helpless in the face of internal disputes and even tribal wars, invited Rurik to power. The source, created in the XI century, accurately reflects the beginning of the Old Russian principality, adding that the choice of the elders was deliberately imposed on a stranger named the Varangian. Rurik accepted the proposed authority, and since he came with his brothers, he not only founded the state, but also divided it into provinces.

He himself began the reign in Novgorod. A brother named Sineus reigned in Beloozero, and the third of his brothers, Truvor - in Izborsk. It is also known that Rurik expanded the boundaries, subordinating successively to the tribes. When he died about 879, Rostov, Murom and Polotsk were among the most important ancient Russian cities.


Here it is necessary to make a small reference to the modern interpretation of events by Ukrainian historians who created their own historiographic world with statements that there was no Murom in the Vladimir region at that time, and that “Ukrainian” historical “facts” testify, for example, about Ilya Muromets "Eponymous" town near Kiev.
And speaking of the work of the Polish author, it is noticeable that he deliberately emphasizes the question of "possible Polish roots of Rurik."

Polish author continues:

ДNext comes the argument about deciphering the concept of Vareg (Wareg). In the past, and even now, most historians associate this concept with Norman or Viking. Opponents believe that this is a reference to the southeastern coast of the Baltic Sea, thereby denying the roots of the Scandinavian origin of Rurik and his family members. The whole picture is retouched by the fact that the discussion of historians was not a simple debate on knowledge, the debate was more ideological, and therefore emotional.

In fact, the quarrel between the Normanists and their opponents influences modernity, not the past. The former declare that without the influence of the Scandinavians, the Eastern Slavs were not capable of statehood and, consequently, of the progress of civilization. In other words, the northern influences allowed the eastern part of the continent to join Europe. Antinormalists believed and continue to believe that such a theory was initially offensive, not to mention that it looks racist.

A new dispute about the origin of Rurik broke out with a new force during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. And, as you know, this royal dynasty in Russia was closely connected with the German ruling houses. Thus, German scientists should have had the greatest “weight” in Russia in terms of historiography. What remains in this situation? It is best to present the arguments of both parties.

Norman version (Rurik or Roeric):

It should immediately indicate that the theory of the Normanists is considered today to be more convincing and, therefore, probable. Behind this are the historical circumstances and solid evidence collected by modern scientific apparatus. First, the 9th and 10th centuries were a period of expansion of the territory of the Normans, their invasions and colonization. Not only in the North Sea basin, that is, on the shores of Western Europe and Great Britain, but also in Spain (Atlantic), Sicily and Byzantium, that is, in the Mediterranean Sea. Why is the Baltic Sea an exception? Moreover, sources from the XI century mention that, before Rurik, the Eastern Slavic tribes paid tribute to the Normans.
Trails lead us to the etymology, that is, the origin of the name Rurik. It is very close to the old-Scandinavian Hroerich (“bold”, “dominant”). Initially sounding recordings: “rorikR” and “ruRikr” are on runic signs found in Scandinavia. Similar personal names (up to Eric) can also be read in English and German.

Where did Rurik come from according to this theory? At first it seemed that Chroeric from Jutland - in the 9th century, was perpetuated by the Carolingian chronicles.

He was forever a quarreling Carolingian vassal, whose patrimony was on the coast, which borders on modern Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands. He took part in the internal confrontation for the Danish throne and was named the historical great-grandfather of Shakespeare's Hamlet.

But he died too early to become a Russian ruler, although it is known that he was at war with the Slavs, but with the western tribes.
The more likely version is Eric Swedish, Konung or the ruler of Uppsala at the time. Indicates this, among others, one of the Scandinavian epics recorded in the XII century. The text mentions Eric, who made an expedition to Courland and owned many lands in what was then Austrasia (part of the territory of modern Germany, France and Belgium). The surname was literally - “Eastern Land” or “Eastern Route”. According to a study by Swedish historians, the times of the rule of Eric correspond to the chronology of Rurik's life. Moreover, the beginning of the exercise of power, that is, 850-860 years, is identified with the period of conquest of the Eastern lands. In addition, Eric is indirectly indicated by both Slavic and Byzantine sources, who derive the word "Rus" on behalf of his family.

In the first texts, the term Rus (Rusi) meant the exact name of the Vikings, “those who arrived from beyond the sea”. In turn, in the Byzantine annals there is the word "Ros" - to highlight the Slavic elites. At the same time, the Dews, the Russians, spoke a different language than their subjects. Meanwhile, Swedish linguists studying the origin of geographic names from the Uppsala region have confirmed numerous cases of the suffix "ros". They made the thesis that in the early Middle Ages the whole region was called Uppland or Roslagen, associated with the ruling family of this particular region.

The Carolingian chroniclers also identified the Vikings (Vikings) as rulers of the Eastern Slavs. There are texts about visiting them by the envoys of Western Europe. It is known that because of the Norman language used, Slavic envoys were perceived suspiciously, almost by Viking spies.

The results of archaeological research also speak in favor of Norman origin. Many years of work were carried out in Novgorod and in Staraya Ladoga. The study allowed to find 1,2 thousand artifacts indicating the obvious presence of Norman culture. Ancient monuments are tangible evidence of a lively trade between the Old Russian state and Scandinavia. Many elements of the ornament are made with the image of the Viking Thor. The same process was observed with weapons, especially in the local production of the famous long Viking swords.

A short archaeological survey should end with burials. In the pre-Christian period, in each tribal culture a different burial rite of the dead was used. It was like the Scandinavian version. Cemeteries characteristic of Northern Europe were found in the Pra-Rus region. However, a certain feature - the lack of boats in the graves.
However, all large-scale evidence exclusively of the Norman theory ultimately upsets the DNA research.


This results of the study of DNA Rurik, which are not provided by the Polish author: 11 from 19 results - haplogroup N1c1 - it (Finno-Ugric and Baltic group), seven - R1a1 - is Eastern Slavs, including Russian, and one - I2a2 - refers to the ancient Paleo-European genus.

Further about the ancient Slavic theory of the origin of Rurik from the Polish author:

Rurik or Rarog?

Behind the theory of the Slavic origin of Rurik is one of the greatest scientists of Russia - Mikhail Lomonosov, who received the thesis about the "underdevelopment" of the statehood of his ancestors. Thus, he entered into a patriotic dispute with the Norman theory, formulated by German scientists studying the history of Russia on the order of the Romanov house. But due to the imperfection of knowledge in the 18th century, Lomonosov incorrectly identified with the Slavic Baltic tribes inhabiting the mouth of the Dvina. Speech, in particular, about one of the tributaries of the Dvina, called Rosa - Rurik's cradle.

In the 19th century, supporters of the Slavic theory of the origin of Rurik focused their efforts on proving that Rurik was from Slavic lands. He came from a West Slavic tribal group that inhabited the northern lands between the mouth of the Elbe and the Oder (encouraged). Speech about the so-called Mecklenburg legends, written in the XVIII century, based on ancient sources. One of them exactly repeats the legend of the three brothers - Rurik, Sineus and Trouvore - and the fate of their eastern epic. He also clearly indicates the origin of the then encourages. An indirect signal was the combination of the name of Rurik with the name of a bird of prey - usually used by the Slavs for hunting. Rarogs called the elders of encouragement, and especially prominent leaders and warriors. In addition, as stated, the ancient ancestral coat of arms of Rurikovich was with the silhouette of a bird of prey, aimed at the victim. The schematic image of this bird has survived to the present day, for example, in the form of a Ukrainian coat of arms, a trident.

However, the legend of the three brothers was refuted when scientists brought a new interpretation of ancient Russian sources. It turned out that Sineus and Truvor were not like brothers, since such words are a translation of the Old Scandinavian –– home, tribe (“home” and “brigade”). In this theory, Rurik came to Russia not with his brothers, but with all the “loyal retinue”.

In this theory, the historical “residence” of Rurik was designated - the same one, between the Oder and the Vistula - the territory of the encouraging - of the Polish lands. This version did not find a response in the Russian Empire (in St. Petersburg) against the background of the Polish insurrection. Because at that time they stopped at the version that representatives of the Krivichi invited Riurik to reign in Russia. And Rurik himself is described as the grandson of Gostomysl — the head of the Ilmen tribes of Slovenia, who had previously disguised one of his daughters as a Scandinavian (probably Finnish) tribal leader. Rurik was born in the same marriage. Thus, Rurik (half-Slavinian, semi-Slavic) got the opportunity to "rule" Rus as a descendant of Gostomysl - from Ilmen slogans (the area of ​​present-day Veliky Novgorod). However, this theory is refuted by those who believe that the Swedes were then called Scandinavian dews.

An important argument of the Slavic historical line: The path from the Varangians to the Greeks. This is about the numerous boats of the Slavic design and the complete absence of long Viking ships along the way. Computer modeling has allowed to prove that such ships would not have crossed the rapids of the Dnieper on the way to the Black Sea.


Further, the Polish author, summing up, asks the question: is a consensus possible in endless debates about the origin of Rurik and how and from where he came to the territories called Ancient Rus.

It seems that the Slavic followers of Rurik no longer exclude his Norman origin. However, they strongly disagree with the key role of the creation of statehood by the Scandinavian invaders or colonizers. They point to numerous proofs of the existence of an Eastern Slavic state even before Rurik, citing Byzantine sources. In their opinion, one can only talk about a voluntary and mutually beneficial trading system, which allows Normans to settle down and live permanently among the Slavs. At that time, the Scandinavians were too undeveloped to physically conquer and hold “under themselves” such vast and rich territories.

The ultimate proof is a local historical tradition. Until the XVI century in Novgorod - the cradle of Russia - there was a rule for the temporary election of the prince by the democratic assembly of the inhabitants - the Veche. The elected prince was primarily military leaders, subject to political control by the "city council". And the princes who tried to expand the military office and politically, were either, or killed in the uprisings of Novgorod.


The material of the Polish author for the article is quite extensive, but the main thing in it is an attempt to highlight several versions of Rurik's origin, and not focus only on one. And because the material does not look one-sided, even if it is seen in an attempt to attract the version of the “possible Protopols” roots of Rurikovich by the ears.
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  1. +12
    5 March 2018 06: 32
    And if he came from the Slavs who inhabited the land between the mouth of the Oder and the Vistula, did Rurik have Polish or Dopole roots?
    And what is crime? In those days, the Slavic language was so similar that from the Dnieper to the Oder they calmly understood each other without an interpreter.
    And in my opinion, the Slavic tribes could not invite the prince of a non-Slav to themselves, since this would simply contradict the logic of the development of society. Dividing the whole world into “words”, that is, those who have and understand the WORDS, that is, they speak the same language with them and the “Germans”, whom they simply did not understand, it’s the same as talking to the MIMES as they could invite the prince from "Germans" who had different traditions and culture. No, Rurik was clearly from the Slavs, and from any of the Slav or Pomeranian, this is not so important.
    1. +7
      5 March 2018 07: 06
      If Rurik had not been a Slav, there was no crime either. As well as sensations. In world history, this is ordinary business. But the Lithuanian Dovmont became the Pskov prince, so what! His people declared a saint without any church.
      In Poland itself, kings were Hungarians and Lithuanians, Germans and Swedes, Czechs and French, but something none of them was called the "creators of Poland."
      1. +2
        5 March 2018 07: 40
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        But the Lithuanian Dovmont became the Pskov prince, but how

        It remains only to clarify that Dovmont, like all Lithuanians of that time, was SLAVES. And they have little relation to the current Lithuanians.
        Dovmont was a descendant of the Polotsk princes. The mother of Wojshelk and Dovmont was “Tver Princess Mary”, and the brothers probably spoke Slavic from childhood, surrounded by mother and father Mindovg.
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        In Poland itself, kings were Hungarians and Lithuanians, Germans and Swedes, Czechs and French, but something none of them was called the "creators of Poland."

        Yes, they have received this honor from the Piasts. They ruled the state from 960 to 1370. It was from this dynasty that the Polish nation began to exist. And the First of the Piasts, ATTENTION !!!, was for a long time among the Varangians. By the way, the Poles even shot a film about it, called "When the Sun was God."
        What I was most interested in in this story was that Piast who came to Polish land and Rurik’s coming to the Rus’s land was very close in time.
        1. 0
          5 March 2018 12: 49
          Quote: svp67
          Dovmont was a descendant of the Polotsk princes. The mother of Wojshelk and Dovmont was “Tver Princess Mary”, and the brothers probably spoke Slavic from childhood, surrounded by mother and father Mindovg.

          Interesting ... Voiskhelk and Dovmont are the sons of Mindovg from the Tver Princess? I was much interested in the personality of Dovmont, but I didn’t hear that ... Can I see the sources of such sensational information?
          1. 0
            5 March 2018 13: 21
            Quote: Luga
            Can I see the sources of such sensational information?

            http://domont.blogspot.ru/2015/07/blog-post.html
            1. 0
              5 March 2018 13: 46
              Thanks, I'll take a look.
            2. 0
              5 March 2018 14: 54
              Quote: svp67
              http://domont.blogspot.ru/2015/07/blog-post.html

              Well, if such studies are considered historical sources, then you can go far.
              The author, by the way, is clearly biased (to look, at least, as the author emphasizes his maiden name), examines some sources and completely ignores others, more specific and detailed. The remaining lacunae of knowledge are filled at one’s own discretion, passing off their hypotheses, and, in fact, fantasies as immutable truth.
              Taking advantage of the fact that the chronicles do not contain specific and accurate information about Dovmont’s parents, the author, hesitating a little, “forgets” the clear indication that Dovmont’s native aunt was Efrosinya Pskovskaya, a princess-nun, the daughter of Polotsk prince Rogvold Borisovich, therefore someone Of his parents, Rogoldovitch or Rogvoldovna was also to be called patronymic. Given the fact that before arriving in Pskov, Dovmont was not baptized, it was somewhat difficult to assume that his father was an Orthodox prince, therefore, the mother of Dovmont was a descendant of Rogvold. Of course, he knew Russian well and was familiar with Orthodoxy. The kinship with Euphrosyne also explains the ease with which Dovmont was received in Pskov - the Eurosinu was known and respected there. The very fact of Dovmont’s baptism in Pskov suggests that he wasn’t baptized before.
              Regarding Mindovg, he certainly was not married to Maria Tverskaya, such a princess simply did not exist at that time, Yaroslav Yaroslavich Tversky did not have a daughter with that name. But the name of the real wife of Mindovg is known - Mart or Mort (they write in different ways).
              Further. No matter how many Dovmontes were in Lithuania at that time, it was Mindovg who killed the prince in Pskov after that. The causes of the conflict are believed to be the matrimonial whims of the amorous Mindovg. Dovmont killed his father and younger brothers? Suppose, but then he certainly had to lay claim to the supreme power, as the son of the deceased, but he calmly refused to fight, leaving the power to Trenyata, and after the death of the latter, without entering into a confrontation with Voyshelk, he got away from Lithuania and didn’t go in her direction anymore looked, did not participate in the strife. A member of the ruling house would not do that - the environment would not allow it.
              So, if you do not come up with superfluous entities, then Dovmont is the son of an unknown to us Lithuanian ruler, of whom there are absolutely independent, then there were no less than a dozen in Lithuania, and the grandson of Rogvold Borisovich Polotsky through his mother. Perhaps the name of Father Dovmont is contained in the list of Lithuanian princes, who, along with Mindovg, concluded an agreement with Daniil Galitsky.
              It is 6723 [1215]. God's command from the princes of Lithuania sent to the Grand Duchess RomanovE and Danilovi and Vasilkovi, peace be upon you. Bykh, the names of the Lithuanian princes are: old Elder Zhivinbud, Davyat, Dovsprunk, his brother Midog, brother Dovyalov Vilikail. And zhemotsky riches: Yerdivil, Vykint, and Rushkovichev - Kintibut, Vonibut, Butovit, VizhEik, and his son Vishliy, Kiteny, Plikosov, and this Bulevichi - killed Vishimut and killed him and killed his wife and his wife , Sprudeika.
          2. 0
            6 March 2018 04: 38
            Dovmont’s wife seems to be the granddaughter of Alexander Nevsky, so he spoke Russian in various ways ..
          3. 0
            7 March 2018 20: 35
            Quote: Luga
            Voyshelk and Dovmont - the sons of Mindovg from the Tver princess?

            Of course not! Voyshelk is the son of Mindovg, and Dovmont is the possessor (she and Mindovg were married to sisters)
            1. 0
              8 March 2018 13: 45
              Quote: Weyland
              Of course not!

              I did not say this, I was surprised at such a message.
              Quote: Weyland
              Voyshelk is the son of Mindovg, and Dovmont is the possessor (she and Mindovg were married to sisters)

              This is the canonical version, which is now disputed by various authors. Personally, I do not see significant facts that could refute it. So I agree with you.
          4. 0
            8 March 2018 13: 25
            If I’m not mistaken, Dovmont’s grandfather or great-grandfather by mother was Alexander Nevsky.
            1. 0
              8 March 2018 13: 41
              Quote: mac789
              If I’m not mistaken, Dovmont’s grandfather or great-grandfather by mother was Alexander Nevsky.

              You are mistaken. At the time of the death of Alexander Nevsky in the 1263 of the year (43 of the year), Dovmont was already an adult prince, an experienced warrior, so their age difference could not be significantly greater than 20 years, but most likely, 10-15 years. Dovmont was married to Alexander Nevsky’s granddaughter (according to other sources, his daughter). And Dovmont’s maternal grandfather was Rogvold Borisovich Polotsky.
      2. 0
        5 March 2018 14: 21
        Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
        If Rurik had not been a Slav, there was no crime either. As well as sensations. In world history, this is ordinary business. But the Lithuanian Dovmont became the Pskov prince, so what! His people declared a saint without any church.
        In Poland itself, kings were Hungarians and Lithuanians, Germans and Swedes, Czechs and French, but something none of them was called the "creators of Poland."

        It’s hard to disagree
      3. 0
        7 March 2018 10: 59
        Which Lithuanians belong to which group? If we take the roots, then also to the Slavic ...
        The results of a large-scale study of genetic material and vocabulary of the Baltic and Slavic peoples are summed up. The 15-year work of an international team of geneticists and linguists showed that the Slavs, rapidly settling in Eastern Europe in the XNUMXst millennium AD, spread their language, but absorbed the gene pool of other peoples.
        Scientists also confirmed the alleged close relationship between the Slavs and the Balts, which was assumed by language data.

        1. The result of a 15-year study: the Slavs and the Baltic states have much in common
        2. Latvian to Russian - relative
        3. Linguistic affinity
        4. At the junction of disciplines
        5. The genetics are investigating
        6. Calculations using the language
        7. Family tree of the Baltic-Slavic languages
        8. Aliens-Slavs swallowed the natives
    2. +5
      5 March 2018 08: 09
      And in my opinion, the Slavic tribes could not invite the prince of a non-Slav to themselves, since this would simply contradict the logic of the development of society

      It just doesn’t contradict - we needed someone from the side who would stop our favorite Slavic sport - feud. One northeastern Slav is good, two are schisms, three are feuds. laughing
      In this connection, it can be said that Kliuchevsky’s theory is the most adequate theory - yes, Rurik was a Varangian, yes, he contributed to the creation of a Slavic state, all the prerequisites for the creation of which were already there, the Varangians became only a catalyst for the process.
      1. +1
        5 March 2018 08: 14
        Quote: Cheerful
        someone from outside was needed who would stop our favorite Slavic sport - feud.

        Here I do not agree that this was necessary not for anybody. First of all, they should have known something about this person, so that they would entrust him with the supreme authority, or you think that you’ve "typed on an ad on the street," even for this they had to read Slavic letters on birch bark. Rurik was one of his own, they knew about him, followed his successes, otherwise they would not have invited him. I admit that his mother was from a Russian princely family.
      2. 0
        5 March 2018 14: 26
        The gloomy Klyuchevsky and Karamzin are some of the BEST HISTORIANS of Russia
        1. +1
          5 March 2018 14: 27
          Karamzin, after all, is more of a fiction writer and a little travel blogger =)
          “Meanwhile, two Germans went ashore, who were traveling with us to Koenigsberg in a special wagon; they lay down beside me on the grass, lit pipes and, out of boredom, began to scold the Russian people. I stopped writing and calmly asked them if they were in Russia further Riga? "No," they replied. "And when so, my sovereigns," I said, "you cannot judge the Russians by visiting only the border town." They did not judge for the benefit of arguing, but did not want to recognize me as Russian, imagining that we don’t know how to speak foreign languages. The conversation continued. One of them told me that he had the good fortune of being in Holland and had accumulated a lot of useful knowledge there. "Who wants to know the light," he said, "he needs go to Rotterdam. They live there nicely, and everyone walks on boats! Nowhere to see what you see there. Believe me, my lord, in Rotterdam I became a man! " “Good goose!” - I thought - and wished them a good evening. "

          “When we got down, we found a young officer and an old woman in the stroller who were recommended in our favor and announced that they were coming with us. Thus, it became much closer to us. My officers were glad to have a new comrade with whom they could talk about the past review A woman from Swedish Pomerania, hearing that I am Russian, raised her hands to the sky and shouted: "Ah, villains! You are destroying our poor king!" "The officers laughed, and I laughed, although not quite from a good heart."

          “What, will we have a war, gentlemen officers?” The old man, the innkeeper in Curlin asked my comrades. “I don't think so,” the captain replied. “God grant that it does not exist!” - said the innkeeper. - I'm not afraid of the Austrian hussars, but of the Russian Cossacks. ABOUT! What kind of people they are! ” “Why do you know them?” The captain asked. "Why? Weren't they in Curlin? Nothing escapes their peaks. Moreover, they have such terrible faces that they’re tearing my skin when I imagine them! ” - “Yes, here is a Russian Cossack!” - said the captain, pointing to me. "Russian Cossack!" The innkeeper shouted and hit the back of his head against the wall. We all laughed, and the innkeeper gasped. “For this joke you will pay dearer to me, gentlemen!” He said, taking the coffeepot from the hands of the maidservant.

          "Letters of a Russian traveler"
      3. +1
        5 March 2018 16: 00
        It is still unknown why he was invited. When he "rebelled from generation to generation", one of the genera could call for his help Landsknechts for money. And the leader of these confectioners, Rurik, having done the job - having defeated Vadim the Brave, sat down on the local “table”. For good or not, but sat down. And then, as usual, it turned out that he had every right to do so, because of "princely blood."
    3. +4
      5 March 2018 08: 42
      Slavic tribes could not invite a prince not a Slav
      That's exactly what they could and invited. First, these events did not take place in self-enclosed Slavic tribes, but at the crossroads of trade routes, in the area of ​​Staraya Ladoga, where there are many foreign merchants. That is, the Slavs even before Rurik were included in international trade.

      they just didn’t understand, it’s like talking to Dumb people

      Write nonsense, since you do not have a minimum level of knowledge. Even today, in border cities, at the junction of several countries, local residents are familiar with each other’s cultures and speak several languages, even surzhiks and pydzhis arise, as well as joint families. Therefore, for the Slavs, from shopping centers, the Vikings were not strangers.
      1. +2
        5 March 2018 08: 56
        Quote: nickname7
        That's exactly what they could and invited. First, these events did not take place in self-enclosed Slavic tribes, but at the crossroads of trade routes, in the area of ​​Staraya Ladoga, where there are many foreign merchants. That is, the Slavs even before Rurik were included in international trade.

        That is, the merchants, the Slavic agreed to put on their neck a "stranger", who not only need to feed and drink, but also to maintain his army. Knowing a little the psychology of the “merchants”, they WILL NOT WHEN THEY WILL NOT DO IT. This person should be his own, the one who was trusted, knowing that he would not violate the agreements, and for this he had to worship the gods who were one with them, who were sworn.
        Quote: nickname7
        Therefore, for the Slavs, from shopping centers, the Vikings were not strangers.

        Here you wrote nonsense, at the expense of the Vikings. They were wars, and could not have families here, since their main craft was Looting. It’s hard to call a person robbing YOURSELF. Yes, sometimes the Varangian troops called, but FOR MONEY, never giving them the supremacy. And if you look at our chronicles, it is said in them that Askold and Dir were killed only because they took their places NOT BY BLOOD RIGHT. And Oleg said: “You are not princes or a famous family,” but pointing to Igor, he added: “Here is the son of Ruriks!” So who was Rurik? At least the princely family.
        1. +2
          5 March 2018 11: 03
          That is, the merchants, the Slavic agreed to put on their neck a "stranger", who not only need to feed and drink, but also to maintain his army.
          Stranger - in those days the word relative. Merchants, in a voluntary-compulsory order, sat on the neck of the princes, since the merchants simply had no choice. The prince, controls the territory, levies tribute from the merchants, his own does not matter
          This person must be his own, the one he trusted
          When it comes to power and money, one’s own can be even worse than someone else’s. For example, in disputes over capital’s apartments, it’s not uncommon for children to condemn apartments from their parents. it has a conception of a contract, not its own, not its own.

          They were wars, and could not have families here, since their main craft was Looting.
          Basically, the Scandinavians robbed the rich western kingdoms, with the Slavs the Vikings entered into more symbiosis. The Vikings were not only wars, they were universals and traded and robbed, and since the loot, it was necessary to put it somewhere, they sold it, for purchases, and other things needed in campaigns. And also, you need to have the rear and base of rest and replenishment of supplies. Therefore, Sarai Ladoga was a neutral territory, the Vikings did not rob there.
          Slavic tribes, closed to themselves, despite the same language, were alien to each other and to the Germans. But the centers of trade, like a melting pot, where the Slavs emerged from their corners, began to interact with each other and the Germans learned to trade. Initially, Russia is based on a multinational basis.
          1. 0
            5 March 2018 11: 26
            Quote: nickname7
            Merchants, in a voluntary-compulsory order, sat on the neck of the princes, since the merchants simply had no choice.

            No, here you are wrong. Princes were invited. And this was preceded by the choice of the prince who should be invited, formally at the veche, but in fact at the council between the "best people". And each city, in the case had its own argument, against the prince - the city regiment, which was equipped and trained no worse than the prince's squad. And at the entrance, the Prince made an oath, which he could violate, but then they told him that "the path is open before him,"
            which meant that he was FREE from his duties, and the city from his obligations
            Quote: nickname7
            Initially, Russia is based on a multinational basis.

            I won’t argue, the fact that one of the savior of Russia was Tatarin by the name of Minin is sufficient for me, and this says a lot
            1. 0
              5 March 2018 14: 39
              Svp, "a Tatar by the name of Minin" You surprised me, the fact is that I don’t know Minin’s pedigree, but they said to us at school: “ordinary townsman” since Nizhny Novgorod is in Russia, and therefore Minin is Russian
            2. 0
              7 March 2018 20: 43
              Quote: svp67
              one of the saviors of Russia was Tatarin by the name of Minin,

              There are many different versions about Minin's nationality. Actually, the version is more likely: "what ends in -in is called Mordvin!". In any case, his namesake patriarch Nikon Minin is 100% but Mordvin!
      2. 0
        12 March 2018 19: 40
        as is known (Marx proved) all Russians descended from the Communists.
    4. +1
      5 March 2018 10: 31
      Quote: svp67
      And if he came from the Slavs who inhabited the land between the mouth of the Oder and the Vistula, did Rurik have Polish or Dopole roots?
      And what is crime? In those days, the Slavic language was so similar that from the Dnieper to the Oder they calmly understood each other without an interpreter.
      And in my opinion, the Slavic tribes could not invite the prince of a non-Slav to themselves, since this would simply contradict the logic of the development of society. Dividing the whole world into “words”, that is, those who have and understand the WORDS, that is, they speak the same language with them and the “Germans”, whom they simply did not understand, it’s the same as talking to the MIMES as they could invite the prince from "Germans" who had different traditions and culture. No, Rurik was clearly from the Slavs, and from any of the Slav or Pomeranian, this is not so important.

      Moreover, the Slavs lived in the territory of the present Scandinavian countries. This was written in the Circle of the Earth and confirmed by archeology, which is found in a large number of evidence of Slavic settlements. It is also worth remembering the complete relocation of the population of the devastated Retra to Hodeby, if my memory serves me right.
    5. 0
      9 March 2018 17: 46
      You are absolutely right. Imagine two villages on different banks of the river. One is Ugro-Finnish, the other is Slavic. And who could invite Gostomysl - the ruler of Slovensk to strengthen the power of the Slavs? There was a very fragile geopolitical balance between the villages. Any third force could upset this balance in their favor. Therefore, inviting Swedes or Danes did not make any sense. Rurik himself was the grandson of Gostomysl, and apparently encouraged, arrived in Slovensk with his whole family, but his wife Efanda and her brother Oleg with his squad from Scandinavia. That's where the Varangians come from - Rus (in Finnish ruotsi). Rurik himself settled near Slovensky, in a princely residence on the Rurik hillfort, and his entire family settled near the Ugrofin village (Nerevsky end). This village was called "People’s End", because the aliens were called people, not Germans (who do not understand the language, dumb). Oleg’s squad, apparently, settled by the river that flows into Ilmen and received the name Veryazha. Rod Rurik left the city of Starogard (Oldenburg). Therefore, in a new place on the basis of three villages, a city with the name New City - Novgorod should naturally arise.
      As excavations on the shores of Lake Ilmen already show in the 21st century, the last (third) wave of settlement began on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea not in the seventh but in the fifth century, so Rurik was not a pioneer in this matter.
      1. 0
        9 March 2018 18: 08
        A small part of the Slavic-Venedians left the Stargorod district (present-day Oldenburg, Germany) and moved to the Porus region (left bank of the Rusa / Neman River, present-day Kaliningrad Oblast, Russia) in the 6th century A.D.
        Therefore, when, after three centuries, the Rurik tribe, under the name of Rus in full force, moved to Ladoga, it came already from Porus.
        1. 0
          9 March 2018 19: 31
          Do not be so strict with your statement. The Porosya River flows through Staraya Russa (Rusu), Everything else is even more controversial. Why would they go to Ladoga, where it is not known what awaited them when they were invited to Slovensk. And for this there is a shorter way from the Gulf of Finland along the Luga River.
          1. 0
            9 March 2018 20: 03
            Rusov was invited by the elder of the Slovenian Gostomysl (Rurik is the grandson of his daughter Umila), so the Rus (about 1000 people) knew why and where they were moving.
            1. 0
              9 March 2018 20: 35
              I’m talking about the same thing. And why should they then Ladoga, when shorter on the Meadow right to Slovensk.
              1. 0
                9 March 2018 20: 43
                Where Gostomysl indicated, there and relocated.
    6. 0
      12 June 2020 12: 50
      The Germans are not the ones whose language we do not understand and therefore they are dumb ... It's just "not - We" (strangers). As "ours and not ours".
  2. +2
    5 March 2018 07: 41
    Somehow on the side who Rurik was by nationality .. From the 18th century to the 20th century, Germans with a Russian surname, Russia ruled in general and nothing somehow ..
    1. +4
      5 March 2018 08: 11
      The highest aristocracy does not have a nationality in principle, at the head of which the states stand - they belong to such a nation. So, you know, the Germans rule Britain as well - and nothing more, "more British" can be found. =)
  3. +16
    5 March 2018 07: 56
    I don’t see trouble even in Varangian influence
    Good guys
    Not shameful
    1. +4
      5 March 2018 09: 10
      I found these lines about Rurik, Sineus and Truvor in Ignatiev’s book “Fifty Years in Service”. Here they are.


      "My site was in the vicinity of the freelance city of Izborsk, which I knew
      only from the textbook of Russian history of Ilovaysky: it was said there that in this
      the city was once settled by the younger brother of Rurik - Truvor. Having studied subsequently
      Swedish, I made sure that Rurik came to Russia not with his brothers, but "with his
      home "(blue-house - what made Sineus) and with a faithful retinue (truvor - from
      what Truvor came out). "

      So what happens? There was neither Sineus, nor Truvor, the Rurik brothers. And there were just Swedish words that mean "with your home and faithful squad." Swedish So Rurik was still a Swede? Or not? Difficult science history.
      Ignatiev was ambassador to Sweden and learned the language.
      1. 0
        5 March 2018 11: 52
        So PVL was written 200 years after Rurik came to reign.
        And what's the difference who Rurik really was - a Swede or a Slav, if in fact he was invited to an existing position.
      2. +15
        5 March 2018 16: 20
        Yes you are right.
        And scientists came to the conclusion that Rurik arrived not with his brothers, but with his retinue and home.
        Translated wrong.
  4. 0
    5 March 2018 09: 13
    Quote: parusnik
    Somehow on the side who Rurik was by nationality .. From the 18th century to the 20th century, Germans with a Russian surname, Russia ruled in general and nothing somehow ..

    Until 1914! And then the queen is a spy!
  5. +4
    5 March 2018 09: 37
    The very statement of the question that the Norman state was the basis of Russia is stupid, since the Normans did not exist at the time of Rurik. At that time, there was a communal-clan system, Slavic tribal structures and Scandinavian ones development. Rurik was called, not because he possessed some kind of transcendental knowledge, not as a progressor, but as an outside manager, as an arbitrator and a way to resolve conflicts. Princes solve conflicts through war, but the economy suffers. Therefore, they choose among themselves the eldest and give him power and the duty to resolve conflicts, without wars. This is a universal way to balance power, it is still used today. For example, gangs choose Georgian authority.
    It is interesting that the prince with the squad by modern standards, roughly corresponds to the criminal gang and authority. Princes, konungs, lords, etc. in fact, they were engaged in collecting tribute from the population, from markets, and holding the territory, and politics was reduced to control, seizure, squeezing of territories and robbery, of each other. The historians of the humanities, to the end do not understand the nature of power and its underlying motives, everything is too emasculated.
    On this, I advise, to humanities historians who explore the Middle Ages, imbued with the spirit of the era and get acquainted with the history and activities of criminal gangs.
    1. +2
      5 March 2018 11: 31
      I agree. In the absence of ideological and religious issues, power is necessary for the economic exploitation of the population. National obstacles at that time are not significant, but linguistic and cultural ones make themselves felt. After all, explaining to a tribe member in his language that now he should give so many sables, martens and squirrels a year is much easier than poking a sword at him and shouting something incomprehensible to him.
    2. +1
      5 March 2018 12: 05
      Quote: nickname7
      On this, I advise, to humanities historians who explore the Middle Ages, imbued with the spirit of the era and get acquainted with the history and activities of criminal gangs.

      That's for sure. As a state, Russia was generally rather strange. Rather, it looks more like a semi-criminal corporation that maintained trade routes and closely merged with the Scandinavian organized crime groups.
      Again, do not forget about the great influence of the oligarchy on the policies of Novgorod and Kiev. We are now inclined to think that the autocracy (the empire, so to speak) is the ideal construction of the state, and meanwhile we stole it from Byzantium. We do not even deny it: Moscow is the third Rome. In fact, it was from the north-eastern principalities that the formation of the modern appearance of Russia began. So the attitude of the Scandinavians and other visitors to our statehood should be characterized by the expression - you were not here.
      PS Surprisingly, more than a thousand years have passed, and little has changed in Kiev.
  6. 0
    5 March 2018 09: 59
    read . not funny .. everyone is climbing up. for +. for recognition.

    What peoples, tribes and clans lived on the East European Plain? how much, where, in time, resettlement varied ????
    maybe the “Nefino-Ugric” (??) tribes came from Vyatka or Pechery and Kama - to the top of the Volga and closed the way to Persia,
    what is the way to Byzantium? - Is the Dnieper free?
    by haplo groups, you can determine who was in conflict with whom? what kind of gods are good and evil?
    which tribes accepted - didn’t they accept strangers peacefully or only after a military clash?
    WHAT COULD THE VARYAG (NOT THE VARYAG-SLAVAN) CHANGE IN THE HUGE TERRITORY? --MONTH SWIM ON THE RIVER TO THE NEIGHBORING TRIB
    RIDE ON THE HORSE - WAS THE ROAD (EVEN LET THE TRAILS)? A CAR RIDE?

    these BB questions: what impact did the alien prince have on land management?
  7. +1
    5 March 2018 11: 21
    The author of the article should give a reference to who Robert Head is. Publicist, former analyst of the Polish Intelligence Agency, an employee of the analytical center "Casimir Pulaski Foundation". He specializes in the subjects of Russia and the post-Soviet space.
    At the same time, about Pulaski, whose name is the foundation.
    Casimir Michal Vaclav Victor Pulavsky - one of the leaders and marshals of the Barsky Confederation, and after its rzgroma - General of the Continental Army during the US War of Independence.
    There was a bit in both Poland and America. But, nevertheless, he became the "father of the US cavalry."
    So you should not expect any historical discoveries from this side.
  8. BAI
    0
    5 March 2018 12: 55
    Here it is necessary to make a small reference to the modern interpretation of events by Ukrainian historians who created their own historiographic world with statements that there was no Murom in the Vladimir region at that time, and that “Ukrainian” historical “facts” testify, for example, about Ilya Muromets "Eponymous" town near Kiev.

    Here, from one title of the article, it immediately came to mind that Ukrainian historians could not do here.
    The next historical find belongs to the public inspector for the protection of cultural and historical heritage, a military historian and human rights activist from Kiev Alexander Stankov.
    The social historian proved the fallacy of the prevailing opinion among the masses that the name of Kiev came from Kyya - brother of Schek, Khoriv and Lybed, whose monuments adorn the embankment of the Dnieper and Independence Square along with the necropolis of the celestial centurions.
    It turns out that the name "Kiev" comes from the name of Queen Eve, who founded it. According to Stankov, in the language of some ancient people (ancient ukrov?), "Ki" means "place", and "Eve" is part of the name of the queen.
    Of course, information about Queen Eve was hushed up. But Stankov for some reason did not blame the falsification for the Kremlin, but for the historian Mikhail Grushevsky, known for his record-breaking short (three-hour) tenure as president of Ukraine.
    The researcher claims that the remains of Eve were stored in the dungeons of the museum "Sofia Kiev", but not so long ago, the tomb was robbed.
    “The values ​​of the founder of our city, Eve, were stolen. It is really expensive. Stolen from the safe "Sophia of Kiev". At 18:00, the museum was closed and some jewelry was removed from Eve - a necklace, earrings, handrails, a chain, ”Stankov specified.
  9. +4
    5 March 2018 13: 11
    So it is. Rurik is an Armenian, which obviously follows from his name. And his brothers were Usyk, Khachik and Gagik. I consider the question closed.
    wassat laughing
    But seriously, in my opinion, nationality in this case does not matter. Ladoga, where Rurik was invited (if this is not fiction), was absolutely international at that time, if the concept of "nationality" is correctly used in this context. A sort of densely mixed alloy of Slavs, Scandinavians and Finno-Ugric peoples in approximately equal proportions, plus or minus. So that any of the representatives of these peoples would be there in the role of a prince to the place, there would be a candidate suitable in terms of abilities. Yes, even if he were a Jew, all the same, the bearer of sovereignty is only and exclusively the people, without the people, Rurik would remain one of the countless Ragnars, Ottars, Baldurs, etc. In short, it was not Rurik who created the Russian state, but the Russian state created Rurik as a historical person.
    1. 0
      9 March 2018 18: 05
      The settlement of Primenmenia by the Slavs took place before the Neva River appeared. Settlement (development) through Slovenia and Rus occurred along the Luga River. Check out the excavations at Cape Okhta in St. Petersburg and you will understand this. It is possible that Rurik arrived in Slovensk along the Meadow, and not along Volkhov, through Ladoga. Volkhov was not navigable on the rapids in the area of ​​the current village of Krasnofarforny. After active peat mining, Luga is now very shallow, and a hundred years ago it was possible to sail along this route with a small drag to the Kibu River, then Mshaga and Lake Ilmen.
  10. 0
    5 March 2018 14: 14
    And who are the Varangians need to first figure out whether these were national formations.
    1. 0
      9 March 2018 18: 11
      Varangians are tribes of Rus from both Baltic shores engaged in salt production. Mitten - a mitten for salting. After the settlement of the southern coast of Ilmen by the Rus tribe, salt cultivation was practiced in almost all settlements.
  11. 0
    5 March 2018 15: 06
    Quote: parusnik
    Somehow on the side who Rurik was by nationality .. From the 18th century to the 20th century, Germans with a Russian surname, Russia ruled in general and nothing somehow ..

    For example: Alexander 3 is 98% German (Shirokorad’s statement), but he was the most “Russian Tsar” and Nikolay 1 was an outwardly poured Prusak, and Russia's interests more than prevailed, this is a simplified retelling of how Tsar Pushkin and Vyazemskaya evaluated
  12. 0
    5 March 2018 15: 12
    [quote = Zheleznostop] And who are the Varangians, you first need to figure out whether these were national formations. [/ According to Samsonov and Rurikovich, both the Varangians and the Mongols are hyperbereans.
    Thank God, when we were in school, we didn’t know such a thing. You can read on the next branch.
  13. +1
    5 March 2018 15: 48
    Quote: svp67
    all Lithuanians of that time were SLAVS.

    What a conversation! As well as ALL Germans and Danes. And most importantly - ALL SLAVES of that time were Ukrainians. According to the latest research.
  14. 0
    5 March 2018 16: 19
    What is the actual argument? Whoever Rurik is, (I am inclined to think that he was still a Norman, because for the next 150 years the Slavs will constantly recruit Norman squads as a professional army up to and including Yaroslav), but he was NOT the founder of the first Russian state . Because Russia was united by his relative (according to one version, the husband of Rurik's sister) Oleg was subsequently called by the Prophet. For 40 years of his reign, it was he who laid the foundations for the fact that Yaroslav the Wise destroyed by dividing Russia between his sons. There is an opinion that Prince Igor is actually the son of Oleg, and not Rurik ... that is. all subsequent Rurikovich are not from Rurik at all ..
    1. 0
      5 March 2018 18: 44
      that Yaroslav the Wise destroyed by dividing Russia between his sons
      [Quote] [/ quote]
      So Svyatoslav shared! And Vladimir!
      Yaroslav refused a tribute to his father! He kept a constellation in the pit! He nailed Konstantin Dobrynich!
      Zhivyahu brutally slaughter each other. (And brother's brother.) Such a time!
      With sons, time has changed. The economy too! And they began to divide, divided into destinies, anglers!
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. 0
    5 March 2018 21: 02
    The lies of Russian "historians" (naturally, "compatriots") about the allegedly invented names of the Rurik brothers are exposed

    http://pereformat.ru/2018/03/rorik/#more-8205
  17. -1
    5 March 2018 22: 31
    It doesn’t matter where he came from. His deeds are important. Catherine the Great is 100% German. And she loved Russia more than hundreds of thousands who were only called Russians. And Yeltsin, who was 100% Russian, but who sold Russia to the West.
    1. +1
      6 March 2018 00: 20
      Russia can be loved in different ways .. And being sold to the West as EBN and having enslaved ordinary people like Catherine .. Yes, it’s just then that now ordinary people are completely forgotten.
  18. 0
    6 March 2018 16: 19
    What is the difference of what nationality was Rurik? What does it change?
  19. 0
    6 March 2018 17: 21
    Could Rurik not be a Slav? Quite. The prince’s role as a military commander did not essentially exclude direct mercenarism, the position was essentially a hired one with a certain agreement with Novgorod. Nevertheless, it is necessary to build on the actual state of affairs: Rurik came to Novgorod, and later extended his power in Russia. As for the judicial functionality, I would refrain. The alien prince could not "steer" according to his code. Yaroslav the Wise, forming the "Russian Truth", compiled multiple codes of Russian lands that existed at that time. Rather, the prince could be a "bailiff" guaranteeing execution. But in essence, the coming of Rurik from a political or historical point of view is not an epoch-making event. He did not build Russian civilization, but neatly joined it, becoming a part of it.
    1. 0
      10 March 2018 12: 21
      "Rurik came to Novgorod, and spread his power in Russia later."
      Rurik did not go to Novgorod, but to Slovensk. Only with the advent of his family was formed the New City - Novgorod. There was no Russia at that time, just as there was no Poland. All this was one big state - Slavia, whose territory extended right up to Andalusia
  20. 0
    7 March 2018 11: 05
    Most likely, Rurik was a Varangian, but had Slavic roots, given the close communication of the tribes of that time, and the fact that division according to ethnicity was not accepted then (because there were no nations yet), but only tribal-clan division ... perhaps the arrival of a Slav with a Norman squad and the fulfillment of managerial and military functions / duties ..... but Rurik simply appropriated the principality and became the founder of the dynasty (by the way, according to ancient sources, there was a riot in Novgorod that Rurik brutally crushed) Everything was very arbitrary. ...
    1. 0
      9 March 2018 19: 41
      Rurik came with his Slavic clan, as he was invited by his grandfather Gostomysl, and brought with him the Varangian squad of Prince Oleg (brother of the wife of Efanda)
  21. 0
    10 March 2018 20: 55
    "Where did the Russian land come from" is old and in some places not interesting.
    I personally am not very interested in the question of where the Rurikovich came from in Russia.
    I know that Rurikovich Nevsky drove the Swedes in the tail and mane.
    Rurikovich Ivan the 3rd created a centralized state, virtually destroying all dissent among the Orthodox.
    Rurikovich Ivan the 4th began a victorious step to the east, which we now live in.

    But the glory and influence of the modern country has already been laid by other people:
    Petr Romanov
    Catherine Anhalt of Zerbskaya
    Vladimir Lenin
    Joseph Stalin

    None of them are Rurikovich. History is a memory and a guide to further actions. Do not nostalgia for disappeared through the centuries.

    IMHO