Military Review

India threatens Russia, or the plight of FGFA

106
Indian participation in the joint project of the 5 generation fighter with the Russian Federation is under a very large question mark. At the same time, the question mark on Indian participation is already so large that the program itself has to a greater degree become Indian in claims to Russian colleagues. And these claims are growing like a snowball.


We are talking about the project of a multi-purpose fighter 5-th generation, which (the project) was originally held under the working English-language name Sukhoi / HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Today, a shortened version of the name - FGFA, which in its essence represents an export modification of the prototype of the Russian T-50 fighter, which recently received the name of Su-57, is often applied to the Russian-Indian project.

The Indian side, as already noted, expresses dissatisfaction with the project, which in itself leads to more and more new shifts in the timing of work. Sergey Chemezov, Director General of the Russian corporation Rostec, spoke recently with a weighty amount of optimism that the final version of the contract with Indian partners could be signed in the “near future”.

Chemezov added:
The project is very difficult, but the work continues, although not so quickly.


However, the optimism of the head of Rostec regarding the signing of the final version of the FGFA contract (the very same export version of the Su-57 or, in the Indian version, a promising multiplayer fighter - PMF) is not shared by colleagues in India. There are statements that “Russian specialists have been arguing for a contract to be signed some time in a row, but the situation has not really shifted from the dead point.” What are the specific claims from the Indian side?

As it turns out, to the claims that accompanied the joint project initially, new “troubles” from New Delhi were added.
To understand, for a start it is worth recalling some history the project.

The first agreement, which had an intergovernmental status, was signed by the Russian Federation and India more than 10 10 years ago - in 2007. After that, it took three years for countries to solve the first difficulties that arose and to “give birth” to the project contract for the implementation of FGFA / PMF. Give birth - gave birth, but the brainchild was very painful.

Problems manifested themselves from the first days. One of the problems associated with the technologies that should be applied on a promising fighter. India stated that it only agrees to invest if all of its (Indian) specialists' requirements are strictly complied with by their Russian colleagues at Sukhoi. The Russian colleagues scratched their heads and it seemed like promises were made by New Delhi.

However, immediately India said that among the priority requirements - the distribution of costs. In the Indian Air Force, it was considered that the financial interests of the department with the version of the "trial" contract, which was concluded in 2010, could not be fully satisfied. The Indian side stated that it was ready to immediately cut funding in order to “not stay with a hole in the joint budget.” Like, the consequences of the global economic crisis - all that.

The Russian side again scratched their heads and assured the partners that it was necessary to wait for at least the first results of the work, and then speak about the adjustment of the “monetary” component of the program.

In general, the work began. The financial terms of participation in the cooperation remained the same (from 2010 year), namely, the Russian Federation and India, until 2020, should invest the project in the amount of 12 billion dollars (six billion from each of the partners).

After the start of the design work in New Delhi, it was considered that the technologies that Sukhoi implements do not meet the requirements that at that time (2011 year) were applied to the 5 generation aircraft. Evaluation of the draft prototype by the Indian Air Force led to the fact that Indian friends presented Russia with as many as four dozen changes in the parameters of the new aircraft. In particular, such design flaws were pointed out as: “weak capabilities of armaments”, “not complying with stealth characteristics” and “lack of modernization component on the use (in plan) of the engine”.

The Russian side at that time recognized that the requirements of India on a number of points are quite relevant - as an example, the same engine (as they say now - the “first stage”), as well as the somewhat vague situation with the promising fighter’s missiles. The implementation of the project again went astray - India, in fact, refused to invest in contract volumes, stating that Russia must first "refine" the characteristics.

India threatens Russia, or the plight of FGFA


The difficulties did not end there. The reason for the new friction between the partners in the joint project was announced by Russia an adjusted procurement program aviation technicians. If initially the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and India pledged to acquire almost 400 FGFA for two, of which Russia - about 250 for the period until 2022, then in 2015 the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation reported that they were not ready to put into operation more than 24 fifth-generation fighters (speech today about Su-5). Instead, Russia made some emphasis on the Su-57 and its version. True, even here the rumors about the “hundreds” of 35 “dryers” were greatly exaggerated.

By the way, initially the total cost of selling almost 400 FGFA was (on paper) almost 30 billion dollars - it turns out, according to 75 million dollars per unit serviced. For comparison, this is an average of $ 10-20 million dollars cheaper than the American F-35 (in its various versions).

In this case, Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and customers in India stated that they did not see the feasibility of investing in the 6 program billion dollars for their part, if the final application for the purchase of aircraft as if joint development was adjusted downwards. So that the Russian colleagues, as they say, imbued with Indian concerns, in New Delhi have declared that they are ready to leave the project at any time. The Russian side had to make concessions, as a result of which India will invest in the project (if, of course, it invests ...) it is no longer 6 billion dollars to 2020, but about 3,7 billion.
And the retired Marshal of Aviation of India, Simhakutti Varthamman, who heads the Indian subgroup of the joint FGFA project team, has recently made it clear that India is actually ready to stop working on the project.

Attention is drawn to the fact that such statements from a retired marshal sounded against the background of the news that the United States is ready to deploy F-16 production in India at Indian Tata capacities and, on such a wave of "American-Indian friendship," to sell the F- 35. The proposal, as emphasized in India itself, is tempting. They say, well, it does not matter that the project on screwdriver assembly of American planes of previous generations with the simultaneous vtyuhivaniem American F-35, the "damp" which did not speak only a lazy pilot.

So, India was at a crossroads: you will go with Russia - 3,7 billion will have to be invested with the possibility of facing intimidation from Washington by sanctions on military-technical cooperation with Moscow, you will go with the US, but there are unfinished F-35 and famous American friendship, from which not everyone survives in the case of taking it seriously ...
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  1. Vard
    Vard 31 January 2018 10: 37 New
    18
    In short, India, as always, in its repertoire ... and wants and pricks ... and the plane wants to get ...
    1. Fedor egoist
      Fedor egoist 31 January 2018 10: 50 New
      38
      Quote: Vard
      In short, India, as always in its repertoire

      Gypsies what to take from them. The attitude should be appropriate - no joint projects with gypsies, only sale of finished products. If they refuse, the master is a master. Behind our weapons half the world is in line. And work with such “partners” will eventually come out sideways.
      1. Varyag_0711
        Varyag_0711 31 January 2018 12: 00 New
        32
        Hindus are not just complex, but daunting "partners." In addition, we have our own interests in this region, they have their own. They do not like our rapprochement with China, and even more so with Pakistan. In addition, they want to get not just a ready-made aircraft, but first of all technologies, and this is what we need now. So, concluding a contract with the Indians, we should think not seventh seven, but seventy-seven, before putting our signature on the contract. And then we are chasing these contracts, but in the end there is no money, but claims are above the roof.
        By the way, no one knows what the fate of the T-90 contract is, they were able to assemble it themselves, it seems they had a lot of problems with him there. As a result, they did not bring him to mind, in my opinion. Who knows, no, how did it end?
        1. Igor Golov
          Igor Golov 31 January 2018 21: 12 New
          0
          Pakistan and China are sources of concern for India. Of great concern.
        2. Evgeniy667b
          Evgeniy667b 1 February 2018 18: 36 New
          0
          It is time to send Indians on foot erotic journey. There is practically no sense from them, but from the stench, soon there will be nothing to breathe .. Yes, and let Chemezov go to them for permanent residence
      2. Don
        Don 31 January 2018 12: 22 New
        +9
        I hope
        Quote: Fedor Egoist
        Behind our weapons half the world is in line.
        it's just a figure of speech hi But seriously, an agreement with India would help us create a more advanced version of PAKFA at an Indian expense and pay a fraction of the cost of current developments. For this, I would have to share technology with them. Here you will not immediately say what is more expedient. I hope our experts will make the right decision. In any case, we will have to forget about super-profitable contracts with the Indians.
      3. weksha50
        weksha50 31 January 2018 17: 01 New
        11
        Quote: Fedor Egoist
        If they refuse, the master is a master. Behind our weapons half the world is in line.


        Ahem ... Are they those who buy our weapons for our loans (which we then forgive them)?
        But the orders of the “Gypsies” nevertheless at one time did not allow a certain part of our military-industrial complex to die ... Yes, they took advantage of the difficult situation of Russia, I do not argue, but the orders were also significant ...
        As for technology ... Here are two of them, buyers, China and India, who require technology ... But, it seems to me that those times are over, and that's enough to squander technology ...
        Do not want to - do not buy ... And it turns out that we will have nothing to fight against the Chinese Su-35 and Su-57 ...
        1. Fedor egoist
          Fedor egoist 31 January 2018 17: 51 New
          +9
          Quote: weksha50
          the orders of the “gypsies” nevertheless at one time did not allow a certain part of our military-industrial complex to die ... Yes, they took advantage of the difficult situation of Russia, I do not argue, but the orders were significant ...

          I agree. In the 90s and early XNUMXs, only large-scale Indian orders saved many of the most important defense enterprises from closure, preventing the dispersal of professional personnel and preserving the continuity of generations.
          However, the situation is different now. And if you sell the products of our defense industry (with the letter "E"), then only in the form of the final product. Maximum - screwdriver assembly on site. To engage in the sale of promising models of military equipment (which even the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation do not really have), and even more so to sell their production technology is at least short-sighted. Hindus, even with knowledge of all the know-how, are unlikely to master the production of the latest technology, having kept the desired quality level (“brother” -bulgars still can’t even copy AK properly). And here are the technologies ... the technologies can sail away from cunning gypsies over the sea-ocean, where really knowledgeable people are very interested in them.
          1. weksha50
            weksha50 31 January 2018 19: 42 New
            +3
            Quote: Fedor Egoist
            to sell the technology of their production is at least short-sighted.

            Quote: Fedor Egoist
            technology can sail away from cunning gypsies over the sea-ocean


            Well ... We think that - in one direction ... hi drinks
          2. parma
            parma 1 February 2018 06: 36 New
            0
            Quote: Fedor Egoist
            bros "-the Bulgarians still cannot even plainly copy AK

            A strange statement ... Bulgarian Ak from Arsenal will be more popular in the world even ours (in terms of sales), and judging by the reviews, even the quality is higher than ours (though the Russian flood is already 90-00-xx) ....
            1. Fedor egoist
              Fedor egoist 1 February 2018 14: 04 New
              0
              Quote: parma
              judging by the reviews, even the quality is higher than ours

              Apparently, we read different reviews :) We didn’t compare it ourselves, but as far as I know, even in Bulgarian replicas (in principle, not bad replicas), the barrel wear resource is several times lower than that of Izhevsk products. According to some other parameters (accuracy of fire, specific number of misfires, etc.), the performance characteristics also do not reach the original a bit.
              My opinion is that a copy, in principle, cannot be better than the original. But if you compare the replicas of the AK family of different countries, then the Bulgarian ones are probably the best (again, IMHO).
              In general, this is a small offtopic - the topic is something about gypsy planes))
    2. siberalt
      siberalt 31 January 2018 11: 13 New
      +3
      So, there is no contract yet, but the war is on? belay
    3. Artek
      Artek 2 February 2018 11: 42 New
      0
      Indians have been fooled for 11 years already, but this is not the limit; there is an worse example, for example, the united state of Russia - Belarus in general, for about 20 years or more, all come together and can’t unite in any way.
    4. barsik92090
      barsik92090 4 February 2018 20: 02 New
      0
      But the money must be taken forward! Up to this point, tea parties and ballet are useful.
  2. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 31 January 2018 10: 39 New
    17
    Hindus are difficult partners. But Russia should be guided only by its own interests. India does not like our rapprochement, neither with Pakistan nor China, so they are gaining their own price. We need to work and think ourselves, and not enter paradise on someone else's hump. We already helped in due time. Still hiccuping.
  3. Loess
    Loess 31 January 2018 10: 43 New
    10
    you’ll go with the USA - there are no sanctions, but there is an unfinished F-35 and a well-known American friendship, from which not everyone survives if it is taken seriously ...
    First, American friendship, then the Indian spring ...
  4. Egorovich
    Egorovich 31 January 2018 10: 52 New
    14
    Except as with Russia, the Indians have no one to create a 5th generation aircraft with. With China, a full span, from the mattress covers only a screwdriver assembly and no more. So they show off, as always, and continue the joint project.
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 31 January 2018 11: 27 New
      19
      Quote: Egorovich
      Except as with Russia, the Indians have no one to create a 5th generation plane with

      We have a big trump card in this business ... China is arming itself and creating its own fighters (albeit not very good so far). He builds a lot and works on his school of aircraft engineering. And the Indians have stagnation in the project of the SU-57 twin. That is, time on this issue is on our side.
      I am convinced that the entire assembly process to transfer this aircraft to the territory of India is not reasonable. In this case, after all, the Indians want to get all the documentation on this machine, which completely puts an end to the secrecy of this project, which our designers have been adhering to all this time.
      Mattresses did not sell the Raptor, on the basis that they did not want to give their latest technology to either their opponents or allies. Why should we do otherwise with the SU-57?
      1. Egorovich
        Egorovich 31 January 2018 11: 43 New
        12
        I agree completely. I would ask the Indians such a question, what would you do if Russia gave you fully the technology and documentation for the 5th generation airplane !? And with 100% certainty, he himself would have answered that they would not have worked out for 20-30 years. An example is: 1. mattresses are still creating a prototype of the Soviet rocket engine, and things are still there. 2. China creates a prototype aircraft engine from the SU-27 and they have the same cart.
        1. andj61
          andj61 31 January 2018 11: 54 New
          13
          Quote: Egorovich
          I agree completely. I would ask the Indians such a question, what would you do if Russia gave you fully the technology and documentation for the 5th generation airplane !? And with 100% certainty, he himself would have answered that they would not have worked out for 20-30 years. An example is: 1. mattresses are still creating a prototype of the Soviet rocket engine, and things are still there. 2. China creates a prototype aircraft engine from the SU-27 and they have the same cart.

          good I will add - the mattress even own excellent engines that stood on the rocket
          Saturn 5 and which were used in the 60s - 70s cannot for some reason reproduce ... hi
          1. Egorovich
            Egorovich 31 January 2018 12: 03 New
            10
            What happened in the years 60-70 with their Lunar program, only God knows whether they flew to the Moon at all or not, this is a question. And one more question, if you did it, why you can’t do it now. The answer arises itself, then this is all bullshit.
            1. andj61
              andj61 31 January 2018 12: 38 New
              +5
              Quote: Egorovich
              What happened in the years 60-70 with their Lunar program, only God knows whether they flew to the Moon at all or not, this is a question. And one more question, if you did it, why you can’t do it now. The answer arises itself, then this is all bullshit.

              There, in general, the question is not even in flight, but in the presence of the Saturn-5 LV with the given and published characteristics. Although this rocket flew into space - at least under the Soyuz-Apollo program. Or did not fly? Conspirological versions - and very interesting! - available here in this article. http://www.manonmoon.ru/articles/st55.htm
              Like that - the glory of the conquerors of the moon in exchange for detente! drinks
            2. Topgun
              Topgun 31 January 2018 13: 14 New
              +7
              funny :)) there was a peer rd170 also a unique engine rd 0120 and now Russia can not repeat it, for the resumption of production it takes billions of dollars and 8-10 years of work and this is with living designers ...
              what do you say now? doubt the flight of the Buran?
              1. andj61
                andj61 31 January 2018 14: 19 New
                +6
                Quote: Topgun
                funny :)) there was a peer rd170 also a unique engine rd 0120 and now Russia can not repeat it, for the resumption of production it takes billions of dollars and 8-10 years of work and this is with living designers ...
                what do you say now? doubt the flight of the Buran?

                Did Russia try to repeat? Or buys engines from the USA? I haven’t heard something about it! And the United States since the 90s, as soon as it began to raise the issue of decommissioning shuttles, they are trying to create an engine that is very similar in performance to those used on Saturn 5. And for some reason it doesn’t work ... request Because of this, we have engines and buy! hi
                1. Pan_hrabio
                  Pan_hrabio 31 January 2018 14: 50 New
                  +2
                  Something I do not know about the US attempts to create an engine similar to the F-1. To replace the Russian ones, yes, several at once. Could you give a link confirming this information?

                  As far as I know, it makes no sense to reproduce the dinosaur F-1. The most powerful, but inefficient engine with a relatively low specific impulse and pressure in the combustion chamber. Why go back to the technology of the 60s, when it is easier to develop a new engine based on modern technology?

                  But the engines and side boosters from the Shuttles are quite good today, so they will be used on SLS.

                  PS If anyone really wants to understand a little bit about the various aspects of the effectiveness of rocket engines, I recommend the following short article, which I found while searching for information about methane rocket engines.

                  https://geektimes.ru/post/270176/
                  1. Lebedev
                    Lebedev 31 January 2018 17: 55 New
                    +1
                    Thank! I enjoyed reading the link)
                  2. turcom
                    turcom 2 February 2018 19: 00 New
                    +1
                    Yes, the link is instructive, and written with irony.
                2. Topgun
                  Topgun 31 January 2018 15: 22 New
                  0
                  can you be more specific? when they try, a program is being created that is being financed, and these are documents, and this is infa on the Internet, and accordingly links from you?
                  the United States has a "hydrogen" - the legacy of the shuttles has not gone anywhere
                  they buy engines from Russia because they are cheap, engines like RD170 are “cool” and the creation of such an engine is billions of bucks, why spend it? even if the USA will design such an engine (spending billions of dollars and a decade of time) then in production in the USA itself it will be more expensive than the Russian one, they act quite reasonably ...
                  By the way, it’s funny that the rights to RD 180 (halves of RD 170) that Russia does for the USA are owned by the USA and Russia does not have the right to use it ...
                  1. Mih1974
                    Mih1974 31 January 2018 19: 46 New
                    +4
                    You are lying - the United States had no "exclusive" rights to RD 180 and no !! am They didn’t do it, they don’t do it. Moreover, since RD 180 is based on RD 170 and its patents, there seems to be something they are allowed to try to copy at home. But as far as it is publicly known - they did not use this right, and as they drove the whole engine from Russia, they still carry it. Moreover, more recently, the very permitting structures themselves once and for all hacked off the Mask even the very idea of ​​sending people to his "boobs" !! tongue laughing Something there "with an unacceptable danger level for astronauts." I won’t write in more detail, because I don’t remember offhand, but I don’t want to lie.
                    1. Topgun
                      Topgun 31 January 2018 20: 59 New
                      0
                      I read about rights in specialized forums (I won’t search - laziness), there are generally a lot of interesting stories, for example, about how it (rd180) is sold to Americans through an intermediary company and where profits settle ...
                      and of course, how can it be that they didn’t forbid anything to him without the “con man Mask” (it feels like he is to blame for all the troubles :)) this year they plan to test a manned spacecraft :)) NASA’s Falcon 9 rocket (block 5) “freezes "(they like to constantly improve at SpaceX, and once a rocket flies with" upgrades ") to produce statistics, and when the statistics work, they will be launched by astronauts (astronauts)
                      1. Mih1974
                        Mih1974 3 February 2018 14: 50 New
                        0
                        So I read on specialized resources that just the contract for the development of RD-180 does not make Americans "owners of rights" because the point is that it is based on RD 170, to which all rights remain in Russia and in no way merikasy can affect our use and 170 and all that we will do on its basis. And they got mattresses - the right to collect a copy of the RD-180, but not exclusive because we sell the permission to make Kalashnikovs all over the world. Yes, there is just an intermediary company in America, it also has a kind of right to save for production, but ONCE AGAIN - they DO NOT BEGIN to do it themselves. Why - this is not a question for us, maybe expensive, maybe they couldn’t, but the essence is the same - even with ALL documentation they don’t do it themselves. tongue
                  2. Igor Golov
                    Igor Golov 31 January 2018 21: 19 New
                    0
                    You cheat a lot. The fact is that we do not need these engines - for a long time there are better samples. We release them only because there are obligations - these engines are used for the ISS project.
                3. saturn.mmm
                  saturn.mmm 31 January 2018 20: 00 New
                  +1
                  Quote: andj61
                  Does the United States buy engines?

                  Sure buys, Pratt & Whitney aircraft engines
                  1. Igor Golov
                    Igor Golov 31 January 2018 21: 20 New
                    +1
                    Developing his own engine. It would be nice if you would finish the deal.
              2. Mih1974
                Mih1974 31 January 2018 19: 41 New
                +2
                We have:
                The country is Russia, the engine is rd0120, the problems are the collapse of the USSR, the destruction of an economy similar in level to the invasion of the Nazis, the death of design bureaus and specialists.
                The country - the USA, the engine from Saturn 5, problems - went crazy from the "victory over the USSR."
                What do we have in comparison? Russia both flew and flies on its own engines, and as it wants, the USA - they buy both the engines themselves for the rockets and the "passenger seats" in the "rusty Russian" rockets for the astronauts. All the "epic democratically correct" developments "are very successful" and in some places ahead of schedule, but it still flies partially on Russian engines. tongue
                So understandable? But what they do not do more than rd0120 - so does Russia need it now in general? Does Russia really have the problem of "lack of a heavy rocket"? Yes, the problems in Russia in space are huge and often they are exclusively in control (bureaucracy).
                1. Pan_hrabio
                  Pan_hrabio 1 February 2018 01: 04 New
                  0
                  but he still fly partially on Russian engines.


                  Keyword. Not too lazy, climbed into the launches of 2017.



                  A total of 30 launches of American missiles. Of these, only Atlases and Antares use Russian engines (and only in the first stage), these missiles account for 7 out of 30 launches. only 23% of launches in 2017 depended on Russian engines.

                  As for manned flights, under the unconditional Russian monopoly, the Russian crew has been reduced to two people. Of the 6 people on the ISS, now 2 are from Russia. In order for them to cope with the work, they had to reduce the number of days off, adaptation periods after the flight and preparation before departure, etc. things. So not everything is so simple with manned flights.

                  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_космических_
                  запусков_в_2017_году#%D0%9F%D0%BE_%D1%81%D1%82%D1
                  %80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC
                  1. Mih1974
                    Mih1974 3 February 2018 14: 56 New
                    0
                    That's why you put it next - US problems and procurement (let just 23%) Russian engines and our problems with the administration of Roskosmos or with the dough?
                    That is, with SMERSH and money, Russia will be able to send 3 and 6 people to the ISS. But the US has a dough like a fool of a shag and that - they bought our "extra place" - no, they didn’t.
                    I personally don’t know why, but the fact remains that we have NOT technical problems !! good
                    1. Pan_hrabio
                      Pan_hrabio 3 February 2018 16: 11 New
                      0
                      I haven’t put the United States and the problems of the administration of Roskosmos anywhere near; I haven’t considered this aspect at all in this case. And with the fact that the problems of the Russian cosmos are mainly problems of governance and the weak interest of the state, I absolutely agree. But I absolutely disagree with your assessment of the capabilities and potential of the United States.

                      They have enough of their own missiles and engines for them. The heaviest Shtatov missile currently in use. There is nothing to say even about interplanetary stations - the lion's share of the current knowledge about the solar system is thanks to NASA.

                      Well, manned ships do not burn them. If suddenly there is such a need - they will speed up the tests of Dragon V2, and there the CST-100 and Orion will catch up.

                      By the way, in that

                      they bought our "extra place" - no, not bought


                      you are right too. There is a whole multi-port, associated with the Sea Launch. In general, states receive these places as part of their debt to Boeing.

                      https://zelenyikot.livejournal.com/111553.html
      2. zyzx
        zyzx 31 January 2018 14: 51 New
        +4
        So today I was collecting with my child the Chinese analogue of Lego. It would seem that just copy and plastic mold ... yeah, the parts have conditional compatibility .... not to create a 5th generation airplane for them for another 100 years.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack 31 January 2018 14: 57 New
          +6
          Quote: zyzx
          parts are conditionally compatible

          good laughing good
        2. Rey_ka
          Rey_ka 2 February 2018 08: 06 New
          0
          there, along with Lego, a set of file files and hammers goes.
      3. karish
        karish 1 February 2018 06: 53 New
        +2
        Quote: NEXUS
        We have a big trump card in this matter ... China is arming itself and creating its own fighters (albeit not very good ones yet). Builds a lot and works on his aircraft building school. And at the same time, the Indians have stagnation in the SU-57 twin project.

        If the price of the final fighter is 15 million less than the F-35, then it is not entirely clear why India should invest 6 billion in the project and, in the end, buy for a difference of 20 million apiece?
        with 6 billion (or yes, it seems like with 3.7 billion investments) - this is 300 (or 150 fighters) - for the difference in price.
        It is much easier to buy an F-35 (even 50) and as a result, the total price will be much less, by billions.
        Simple math.
        1. kirgiz58
          kirgiz58 1 February 2018 10: 25 New
          0
          Quote: karish
          It is much easier to buy an F-35 (even 50) and as a result, the total price will be much less, by billions.
          Simple math.

          It is much easier to buy the Death Star - this is really less. And this is not mathematics, but simply arichmetic. laughing laughing
          1. parma
            parma 1 February 2018 14: 32 New
            +1
            No, patriotism is great, but you need to know when to stop and include common sense ... It should be borne in mind that the F-35 is also available in the carrier-based version (and in 2 versions at once), while in India you can say 2 (so far one, but it seems to the end of the year will be completed) an aircraft carrier with a general group for 40+ aircraft + verticals can in theory be based on landing ships ... Now they have 45 (if memory serves) MIG-29, but there were rumors about problems with them ... common planes in the Air Force and the Navy, you understand, are better than different ones ...
        2. Cympak
          Cympak 1 February 2018 18: 35 New
          0
          India already has experience of cooperation with "Western partners". In case of deviation from the "democratic path" and the State Department's directive, supplies should be cut off. Airplane engines, for example, need to be periodically replaced when the resource expires ....
          And the F-35 generally has a unique ALIS (Autonomic Logistics Information System) system, which allows the server in Texas to disable the ability to operate the aircraft anywhere in the world.
          1. parma
            parma 2 February 2018 06: 37 New
            +1
            that is, despite all the cooperation with the USSR, spare parts for jaguars, 2000 mirages and other Western goods were actively imported to India, not to mention their deliveries in principle ...
            about the possibility of remote shutdown, something tells me that this is just another nonsense about a penguin ... Not one country in the world will agree to transfer any data from / to an aircraft that they will not control, no matter who ...
            Regarding the project itself and the possibility of canceling it in favor of the US-based ones, the possibility exists and, unfortunately for us, it is high
            1. Mih1974
              Mih1974 3 February 2018 15: 02 New
              0
              Yeah, you tell the Iranians, they will laugh at
              other Western goods were actively imported
              am
              And about "no country agreed" this may apply to airplanes, but such "trifles" as thermal imagers are gone tongue Mattresses not only limit their supply and even "resale" belay , but even strictly in the contract they prohibit "violating the physical integrity" of their electronics in it fool negative and require a refund after writing off.
              So we don't need "no one will agree" here, the mattresses will "push" and the same Germany or Naglia and the "forming agreement" will sign and bow to the lower mericas, even if the American remote control system is in Fu-35.
        3. lance
          lance 3 February 2018 06: 45 New
          0
          you have forgotten about technology and production at home, which is worth a lot. for how much are the United States ready to sell the F-35 production technology to the semi-fifth raw generation? and 25 million will grow to billion.
      4. NN52
        NN52 1 February 2018 16: 17 New
        10
        This project for a twin Su 57, just to make it, will have to redo half of the Su 57 almost from scratch ...
        This is actually a new project from scratch .... Do we need it?
  5. Streletskos
    Streletskos 31 January 2018 11: 03 New
    17
    They want everything ready
  6. ul_vitalii
    ul_vitalii 31 January 2018 11: 17 New
    13
    It means that they did not press and so soon they need all this. We need to treat them with understanding and treat them with our Indian tea. smile
  7. mac789
    mac789 31 January 2018 11: 37 New
    +2
    Gypsies they are Gypsies. Roll over 100 times after the contract.
  8. igorra
    igorra 31 January 2018 11: 56 New
    +2
    Interestingly, when discussing the contract, the Indians sing and dance? I would like to see.
    1. Reserve officer
      Reserve officer 31 January 2018 12: 18 New
      +6
      Not only sing and dance. But they seem to live according to the scripts of their films. They almost always have two episodes. Something happens in the first one, then 20 years pass - and then everything has been fixed, complete happiness.
      So now - there is only the first episode of the film ...
  9. ved_med12
    ved_med12 31 January 2018 12: 01 New
    +4
    Hindus are certainly difficult partners, especially lately ....
    Only now, they are the BIGGEST IMPORTERS OF WEAPONS IN THE WORLD !!!!
  10. Tektor
    Tektor 31 January 2018 12: 10 New
    +6
    It’s pretty obvious that the FGFA project is dead. For co-production with Indians. Now you just need to make a decision on its independent continuation in order to sell to the same Indians, but on our terms. And not only to Hindus.
  11. flicker
    flicker 31 January 2018 12: 40 New
    +5
    Soon the tale is affected, but it is not done soon.
    Alas, if only everything was as simple as the Indians want. To date, no one really has a 5th generation aircraft yet.
    If only they would order a similar product for 6 billion amers ... they would still treat their seat ..
  12. parma
    parma 31 January 2018 12: 46 New
    +2
    Hindus, of course, love to wander around, but they can be understood ... There are no new missiles for the plane, the engines will be delivered sometime later, the deadlines are constantly shifting, and the amount of military equipment purchased by our Ministry of Defense is constantly decreasing (and these are only procurement plans), as a result the price for 1 piece is growing ... In addition, if we also take into account the development costs (and this is initially another 12 billion), then the price tag, even with the purchase of the entire initial batch of 400 cars, exceeds 100 million / piece, and this is already the price tag F -35 (or a penguin, as you like) ... In addition, there is also the possibility of production at home + in addition to the F-35 (although they are raw, they are BUILDING and fly, unlike the Su-57) and F-16, house production of a very good and massive 4 generations, Su-30s are not assembled in India, but their own does not work ... So, due to the pace of neighboring China, a very tasty deal looms for itself and is not in our favor ...
  13. Alex_59
    Alex_59 31 January 2018 13: 56 New
    +3
    We have half of the city - Indians. They were brought in bulk to study at the medical academy. Many, several tons of Indians by eye. They walk, blue ones, covered with hoarfrost, with frightened eyes. Our students complain that some rubbish stinks from them, they say they don’t wash at all.
    They say that before that they studied in some other city (where we still have honey Universities, who knows?) And there their leadership and ours got into a smoke about the fact that the Indians were supposedly poorly taught and the living conditions were poor. After which they were all teleported to us.
  14. Fury
    Fury 31 January 2018 14: 09 New
    +3
    Empty threats. Nobody will sell the technologies of the latest aircraft of India either in the EU, or in the USA, or in China and the Russian Federation. All countries offer India only ready-made aircraft, and if you don't like it, let them create them from scratch in their own India.
    1. Pan_hrabio
      Pan_hrabio 31 January 2018 14: 53 New
      0
      Even from this point of view, the F-16 and F-35 can already be bought at a reasonable price, the Su-57 cannot.
      1. dm-itry
        dm-itry 31 January 2018 23: 50 New
        0
        You can buy it only who needs this shit is not clear.
        1. Pan_hrabio
          Pan_hrabio 1 February 2018 01: 08 New
          +1
          Quite the opposite. So far, everything indicates that the F-35 will repeat the success of the F-16. This month alone:

          Norway bought the F-52 fighter 35 from the USA

          https://topwar.ru/133542-norvegiya-kupila-u-ssha-
          52-istrebitelya-f-35.html

          State Department approved sale of F-34 aircraft to Belgium by 35

          https://topwar.ru/134199-gosdep-odobril-prodazhu-
          belgii-34-samoletov-f-35.html
      2. Fury
        Fury 5 February 2018 12: 45 New
        0
        The F-16 cannot win an air battle against the Su-30, just as it cannot win it in joint exercises with the Indian Air Force and the F-15. F-35, so far, loses even to F-16. The Su-57 can only be compared with the F-22. Nobody will sell the full documentation and technologies of the F-22 to the Indians ... The USA does not sell the F-22 at all ... And the F-35 more and more reminds me of the story of the F-104 - history about any plane that the United States sold as its slave for bribes (the United States has no allies, there are only slaves, but bribes to EU officials are like a lump of sugar in a circus for a trick performed by an animal)
        1. Pan_hrabio
          Pan_hrabio 5 February 2018 15: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: Fury
          The F-16 cannot win an air battle against the Su-30, just as it cannot win it in joint exercises with the Indian Air Force and the F-15.


          You need to be very careful with the teachings, as much depends on the accepted rules. Googled one of these exercises, CopeIndia 2004, when the F-15s were defeated 9-1. And if the most objective article of Topvar says about these teachings

          In distant battles outside visual visibility, the F-15C and Su-30K (with the H001 radar!) Detected each other using radar at approximately the same distances, but Indian pilots were more often the first to perform conditional launches of the P-27 missiles and, accordingly, more often won.
          In a maneuverable battle, the Su-30K (with engines without a controlled thrust vector!) Totally surpassed the F-15C. One of the factors of victory was a large supply of fuel, which allowed more often to use the forced mode of engines.


          https://topwar.ru/100198-su-30-nachinaet-i-vyigry
          vaet.html

          then, when checking the rules, it turns out that the ratio of forces was originally 3: 1 in favor of India, plus the Americans agreed not to use the AIM-120 Amraam - their main long-range weapon. In fairness, it should be noted that the high training and creativity of the Indians and the underestimation of the enemy by the Americans also took place, but this pales against the background of the above.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India
          https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-
          2004-results /

          Quote: Fury
          F-35, so far, loses even to F-16.


          Controversial. In spherical ranged combat 1: 1, given the stealth and electronics capabilities of the F-35, I would not count on the F-16 to win. In spherical melee 1: 1 is also a big question. On the page

          https://topwar.ru/108744-sostoyalsya-boy-mezhdu-f
          -35a-if-16.html

          many copies have been broken on this topic. The assessments of maneuverability vary greatly, the truth is most likely somewhere in between, so I tend to believe that the planes are comparable in this parameter. But the F-35 has a very serious advantage: an OLS with a 360 ° view and the same all-aspect missiles with IR seeker, so it doesn't really need to maneuver.

          Quote: Fury
          The Su-57 can only be compared with the F-22. Nobody will sell the full documentation and technologies of the F-22 to the Indians ... The USA does not sell the F-22 at all ...


          I agree.

          Quote: Fury
          And the F-35 more and more reminds me of the story of the F-104 - the story of no plane, which, for bribes, the United States sold as its slave (the United States has no allies, there are only slaves. Well, bribes to EU officials are like a lump of sugar in a circus , for the trick performed by the beast)


          I don’t presume to judge, I don’t know the history of the F-104 very well.
          1. Fury
            Fury 5 February 2018 17: 42 New
            +1
            1) In the Russian Federation, there are also long-range air-to-air missiles and old, Soviet and newest ones, but no one sold them to the Indians. 2) Export aircraft models, as a rule, have reduced capabilities of on-board electronics in comparison with the equipment supplied to their Air Force. 3) The F-35 also has problems with the target designation system, including the helmet-mounted and ejection system, not to mention the persistent rumors that the coating of the F-35 and F-22 is vulnerable to precipitation ... 4 ) With the F-104, everything is simple, the plane received a nickname from the pilots (flying coffin) and became the subject of a corruption scandal in Germany. As far as I remember, he did not win a single victory in battle and had low reliability, poor maneuverability and high landing speed ... The F-35 is also not doing well with maneuverability, in close combat they are easily shot down by the F-16
            1. Pan_hrabio
              Pan_hrabio 5 February 2018 21: 41 New
              0
              1) I do not argue, I have not argued otherwise. The bottom line is that stealth and more advanced avionics still remain a very significant tactical advantage in ranged combat (if used correctly, of course). By the way, if we talk about long-range missiles, now the leadership is definitely with Europe with their Meteor.
              2) I agree.
              3) As for the coverage - it is quite possible, the rest is as for me childhood diseases.
              4) An interesting story, you will need to read in more detail somehow. But I still don't consider the F-35 an easy target for the F-16 for the reasons indicated in the previous commentary.
              1. Fury
                Fury 6 February 2018 21: 20 New
                +1
                1) While there are childhood illnesses that affect combat qualities, and the helmet-mounted target designation system and the unreliable operation of the radar on the F-35 directly affects its combat capability, this is not an aircraft, but a cripple. In close combat, he is a corpse, this is obvious ... and in long-range combat, the refusal of the radar, or a defect in the coating, which will give it to the enemy's radars, turns it simply into an expensive, non-maneuverable aircraft, with serious problems 2) Meteor, not yet accepted into service, so there is nothing to talk about yet. In addition, its maximum target destruction range is 100 km, which already makes it not the longest-range missile of this class ... Judging by the information about the new DD missiles, which were developed for the Su-57 and are now being successfully tested, Meteor is not a leader ... range it is inferior to many long-existing missiles of a number of fighters. For example, Soviet, or USA ...
                1. Pan_hrabio
                  Pan_hrabio 6 February 2018 23: 50 New
                  0
                  1) Of course, childhood illnesses affect fighting qualities. But which plane didn't have them? And a hypothetical radar failure can happen on any aircraft. However, NATO aviation is still usually used in conjunction with AWACS.

                  2) Meteor force in a ramjet propulsion engine. The missiles you mentioned have a common disadvantage - at the end of the flight, they do not have a reserve of energy to hit at least some maneuvering target, because the solid-propellant engine works only a few seconds after the start. The meteor is devoid of this drawback - its engine runs the entire flight.

                  In general, I propose to end this discussion, anyway, it is unlikely that we will come to a common denominator.
  15. asiat_61
    asiat_61 31 January 2018 14: 23 New
    0
    Not surprisingly, the mandalays are promoting their planes, and maybe corruption. I already wrote that Indians can't do shit with their hands.
  16. Briz
    Briz 31 January 2018 14: 41 New
    +2
    Quote: Donskoy
    For this I would have to share technology with them.

    And maybe not only with them ..., They let some foreign specialists on our (rented) submarine, and now they are getting closer to the Americans, under the pretext that it is necessary to cut in some state equipment and ask them to make an assessment opportunities .
  17. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 31 January 2018 16: 23 New
    +4
    I think several factors came together here:
    1. Ours really slow down with some T-50 components
    2. Hindus fear about US sanctions on buyers of our weapons (here and the S-400 debate)
    3. Hindus believe that in our country difficulties are like in the 90s and they want to get key technologies for the ball for little money ..
    4. Serious lobby of the Americans (F-16, F-35) and the French with Rafal.

    But there are factors for us:
    1. Key components of the 5th generation (technology) - the engine (and the 4th too), Radar, avionics, Weapons for launching from the bomb bay, no one will sell to India in the near future (10 years).
    2.China is actively adopting the Su-35S and its Chinese counterparts, while Pakistan is modernizing its F-17
    3. The only long-range Su-30MKI has not yet moved to Super Sukhoi, it has finished production ... and the F-16s in the latest versions and Rafal will not replace them.
    1. parma
      parma 1 February 2018 06: 58 New
      0
      Quote: Zaurbek
      I think several factors came together here: 1. Ours really slow down with some of the T-502 components. Hindus fear about US sanctions on buyers of our weapons (here and the S-400 debate) 3. Hindus believe that our country has difficulties like in the 90s and they want to get key technologies on the ball for little money ... 4. The serious lobby of the Americans (F-16, F-35) and the French with Rafal. But there are factors for us: 1. The key components of the 5th generation (technology) are the engine (and the 4th too), Radar, avionics, weapons for launching from a bomb bay, no one will sell India in the near future (10 years). 2 China is actively adopting the Su-35S and its Chinese analogues, and Pakistan is modernizing its F-173. The only long-range Su-30MKI has not yet moved to Super Sukhoi, and they have finished producing it ... and the F-16 in the latest versions and Rafal will not replace them.

      About the facts for us:
      1) technologies for the engine for the 4th generation, apparently, are ready to give the Americans even now, and only hold the 5th generation as they say (and for now we give 4 and feed "breakfasts" about the 5th)
      2) do not forget that Pakistan also collects old F-16s around the world (by the way, for this reason, partly F-16s were removed from the competition where Rafal won)
      3) I would not write off the Rafale and the F-16 either, nevertheless, the cars are close in characteristics (let's just watch without dogfight) to the Su-30 and much depends on the structure of the Air Force system in principle, with all radars and other
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 1 February 2018 07: 43 New
        0
        The Americans do not agree to transfer the 4th generation of engines ...
      2. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 1 February 2018 08: 34 New
        0
        The Rafale and the F-16 are qualitatively no worse than the Su-30MKI .... but this is a heavy fighter with the appropriate range and autonomy ... And India needs to protect sea communications. Are they Brahmos for what they are sawing? And which carrier will pull it? Rafale? And this is primarily the RCC!
        1. parma
          parma 1 February 2018 09: 19 New
          0
          Well, how to assess the information about the production of F-16 at Indian factories? It was production, not assembly ... Belgium used to assemble engines (for Dutch-assembled aircraft), now Turkey seems to be
          1 brahmos and rafal should be carried away (but they do not differ much from the Su-30 in combat load, and by the way, the F-16 should also be carried away), and so far no one seems to be able to carry it away (well, or I haven't seen a photo with more than 1 brahmos, although in theory up to 3) ... In addition, you need to look at how the tests will pass, it may be easier to buy a harpoon for airbase (now it seems like they only have it in the Navy) ...
          1. lance
            lance 3 February 2018 06: 55 New
            0
            Rafael and f-16 (and even f-18) never and never will have the suspension to drag away the brahmos. this is a well-known fact announced by the French and the United States.
  18. klm-57
    klm-57 31 January 2018 16: 39 New
    +3
    The corruption component of the Indian decision can be seen, and not for the first time.
  19. Silver fox_2
    Silver fox_2 31 January 2018 16: 42 New
    +1
    They ask us to transfer the SU-57 technology to them! I think our own dynamos turned on!
  20. weksha50
    weksha50 31 January 2018 16: 55 New
    +2
    "So India is at a crossroads."....

    Eh ... That's when the essence of sanctions against Russia began to emerge .... I have tried to say before that TE, previously announced sanctions are not sanctions, but fun ... But when they start to seriously sanction us, it will be no laughing matter ...

    Gypsies ... that is, Indians, sorry, I didn’t even need to replay, and even more so - openly blackmail ... Here, the “list” was published allegedly against Russian politicians and businessmen, but it was a “secret” appendage, which was right there turned out to be known to those who need ... Warning: "Do not go children, go for a walk to Africa (Russia)" ...
    The same Indians have half of the equipment - weapons, at least Amer ... This time ... Our today's "friendship" with China is two ... Well, you can still find factors by which the Indians will turn their back on us ...
    Here is the result: the United States is pushing Russia out of the arms markets ... And this is a rather significant sector ...

    PS So, haven’t our people seen a few years ago that it’s extremely difficult to bargain with Indians, like gypsies? That they simultaneously bought weapons from both us and NATO, that is, practically without giving preference to the Russian one ... That they (like China, by the way), first of all, require technology ... Yeah, so that in a year or two to sell our products on the arms market ...

    If we talk about the system of government as a whole, then I can only state such major negative factors as: Ukraine and Kazakhstan (probably, and Belarus) have been pumped over by a blue eye, through their own fault; all the bad schucher about the Olympics with the withdrawal of past awards from our athletes and the inadmissibility of the current Olympics is again the disgusting work of the state administration .... I'm not talking about the fact that Rodchenko, such as Rodchenkov, was put on the post of the Russian WADA at the post of state officials ... Already at that time there was nowhere to put brands on it ...
    About the cosmodrome and space failures - it is better to keep silent, otherwise I will agree before the stroke ...
    All the bragging on import substitution, especially in agriculture, is a blown soap bubble ...
    And so the Indians, who look at all this, respect for us ... um ... is undermined ... with the constant and timely whispering of the United States ...
    What they deserved - they got it ... That is - in the face ... Ugh !!!
  21. Wolka
    Wolka 31 January 2018 17: 04 New
    +1
    funny, but Indians want to seem better than they really are
  22. Oleg Tolstoy
    Oleg Tolstoy 31 January 2018 17: 12 New
    0
    Quote: Fedor Egoist
    Quote: Vard
    In short, India, as always in its repertoire

    Gypsies what to take from them. The attitude should be appropriate - no joint projects with gypsies, only sale of finished products. If they refuse, the master is a master. Behind our weapons half the world is in line. And work with such “partners” will eventually come out sideways.


    "The mice cried but ate the cactus" (c) Well written, but not bad to look at the map. Whoever feeds a girl dances her "Girl India will break down and agree, you just need to dance her well .. But all military-technical" allies "for the export of democracy will not fly freely over her territory, from which crunches in the pockets of several hucksters, but the hemorrhoids of the rest of the population .. In addition, it is necessary to be friends with all the closest neighbors, but it is better to have a good counterbalance to the most "friendly" ... like the Chinese lol
  23. Mih1974
    Mih1974 31 January 2018 19: 57 New
    +1
    Quote: parma
    , and this is already the price tag of the F-35 (or a penguin, as you like) ... Besides, there is also the possibility of production at home + in addition to the F-35 (although they are raw, they are BUILDING and fly, in contrast from the Su-57) and F-16, the production of a house of a very good and massive 4 generations, the Su-30 in India is not assembled, ..

    Well, it is too early to call the "combatant" Fu-35s, and even in the USA they are not even equated with the same F-16s (16 are considered stronger) and the mattresses of the "pregnant penguin" are positioned only as a "delivery platform" for weapons, but not independent and thus more than a dog landfill fighter. So, having saturated their aviation with the Fu-35, the Indians get into a mess in the absence of just the components of the supplement and the application for the F-35. negative Actually the same “unassembled on its territory” Su-30 is in the hands of even Indians - Americans like this “Kama Sutra” that they are even ashamed to advertise the results good laughing And when they get the Su-30 and the opportunity to assemble and repair them, these “dancers” thought of putting instead of two new engines “one new and one old” belay negative ... And they want to get all the documentation. No, we certainly understand that they will later resell it, but we just don’t need it. So - invite them to dance before the onset of "enlightenment." And then let them come with the money for our ready-made planes.
  24. Aleks Wer
    Aleks Wer 31 January 2018 20: 58 New
    +2
    Yes, they went to x .... Let them fly on elephants.
    1. kirgiz58
      kirgiz58 1 February 2018 10: 31 New
      0
      Quote: Aleks Wer
      Let them fly on elephants.

      It is only necessary to calculate the curvature of the ears, and there is enough space for lift, a tail to protrude - and there are ready rudders, a jet engine (just pick the right feed), your legs will withstand at least a vertical, even normal landing, and ejection seats have been used for thousands of years. laughing But no! I think they can’t do it! It is already a very difficult task - calculating the curvature of the ears. laughing
  25. Berkut24
    Berkut24 31 January 2018 21: 54 New
    +3
    Once I already wrote that there is no need to insist on anything. When the Su-57 will be adopted, then offer the Indians what is taking into account the export modification. If they don’t want to, let them be friends with the Americans. In this case, it will be easier to talk with the Chinese and Pakistanis. The wobbling booty most often ends in rape. Hindus can run into a group option.
  26. dm-itry
    dm-itry 31 January 2018 23: 47 New
    0
    Why the hell we contacted them is not clear. Let them make or buy from those who did.
    1. Pan_hrabio
      Pan_hrabio 1 February 2018 01: 10 New
      0
      Money. India is the world's largest importer of weapons.
  27. Vladimir SHajkin
    Vladimir SHajkin 1 February 2018 00: 46 New
    0
    Gotta give them a try, build an F-16
  28. Vdi73
    Vdi73 1 February 2018 05: 39 New
    0
    Technology please do not pass them, or else compliant.
  29. myobius59
    myobius59 1 February 2018 12: 17 New
    0
    The bro told me, the deceased now, how in Severodvinsk (he lived and worked there, and his son has an awkward job at Zvezdochka) they did the reconstruction of Gorshkov for them. It is well known that the case was moving with a creak.
    So, during the reconstruction there were many Indian military, that is, representatives of the customer, and officers who were to serve on it .. At first they were alone, but then gradually their wives began to come to them. As he said, almost in rags, thin, in wooden sandals. and with one handbag .. But after a year they were all unrecognizable., took a break, ate themselves, bought fur coats, and soon in physique and clothes did not differ much from the Severodvinsk women.
    And when they left, they had so many bags with them that they didn’t get into the taxi.
  30. myobius59
    myobius59 1 February 2018 12: 23 New
    0
    Quote: myobius59
    The bro told me, the deceased now, how in Severodvinsk (he lived and worked there, and his son has an awkward job at Zvezdochka) they did the reconstruction of Gorshkov for them. It is well known that the case was moving with a creak.
    So, during the reconstruction there were many Indian military, that is, representatives of the customer, and officers who were to serve on it .. At first they were alone, but then gradually their wives began to come to them. As he said, almost in rags, thin, in wooden sandals. and with one handbag .. But after a year they were all unrecognizable., they took a break, ate themselves, bought fur coats, and soon in physique and clothes they hardly differed from the Severodvinsk women.
    And when they left, they had so many bags with them that they didn’t get into the taxi.
  31. Snakebyte
    Snakebyte 1 February 2018 22: 58 New
    +1
    Well done Indians, are not being fooled by the "unparalleled". Their domestic approach to the production of aircraft does not suit.
  32. Yuriy71
    Yuriy71 2 February 2018 09: 30 New
    0
    India is the most ugly and foul partner, negotiations with it are the permanent twisting of Russia's hands and blackmail! Yes, India - massively bought military products in the USSR and Russia, and even was the main buyer, but those days are passing! As they say, India wants to "eat a fish ... and sit on ...."! It’s time for Russia to realize this and begin to quietly “send” this impudent Anglo-Saxon state in its attitude and get off the “Indian Needle”!
    1. parma
      parma 2 February 2018 10: 55 New
      0
      The most ugly China, India cannot (therefore probably not try) to make even a poor, but still copy of our equipment ... Yes, if you take the Su-30 and T-90, half of the units produced in the world of both were bought by India! So the Indian market is too important for us .. In view of our unilateral friendship with China, it is not surprising that the Hindus want to receive the guarantees that China itself receives ....
    2. Berg berg
      Berg berg 3 February 2018 14: 37 New
      0
      No matter how India tries to create what Russia supplies, nothing comes of it. Russian planes are turning into vimans from which Indians are trying to eject quickly, tanks into “fighting elephants” with powerful air conditioners from which these tanks smoke from overload, and the submarines that we have been using for half a century have immediately drowned before they left the slipway! Something like this ! Although Russia still taught them something, though in training battles, they really beat the Americans!
  33. Vladimir Kochnev
    Vladimir Kochnev 3 February 2018 11: 13 New
    0
    Let them fly on the WIMAN.
  34. Berg berg
    Berg berg 3 February 2018 14: 27 New
    0
    India understands well, if it does not take it, it will take Pakistan and China! But then India will be at the back of the arms and will not help the French Rafali nor the American F-35! After all, nobody will sell the latest technologies to them, but only old stuff!
  35. karakol
    karakol 3 February 2018 14: 48 New
    +1
    forward Indians flag in your hands and tablecloth road
  36. Atilla
    Atilla 3 February 2018 15: 45 New
    +1
    That's what it means is under the heel of the Anglo-Saxons. All overseas overcoats are inherited.
    1. shahor
      shahor 3 February 2018 18: 30 New
      0
      I read some comments and marvel. Hindus, it turns out, are stupid, and gypsies, and in general ...
      And all because they do not want to pay Holy Russia for unnecessary India junk. Hindus from the very beginning outlined their priorities - stealth and supersonic afterburner. What is not clear?
  37. Brigadier
    Brigadier 4 February 2018 08: 29 New
    0
    Why be surprised? Everything is as usual! They spit in our faces, but we just wipe ourselves and smile guilty ...
    The standard policy of the current leadership of our country ...
    And it will change only when the president comes to power, who will not allow the West to put our country in a certain position!
    EVERYONE VOTES FOR BREAST !!!
    1. barsik92090
      barsik92090 4 February 2018 20: 07 New
      0
      However, keeping money in the West is a very suspicious event for "everyone"!
    2. Peter Rusin
      Peter Rusin 5 February 2018 19: 27 New
      0
      cardboard fool!
  38. Vladimir Kanygin_2
    Vladimir Kanygin_2 5 February 2018 16: 46 New
    0
    Today, India is more an ally of the United States than Russia, so their goal is to destroy such projects. The United States will thank them for this. And Chemezov’s hopes for close cooperation are a bluff, designed to receive additional bugs.
  39. Peter Rusin
    Peter Rusin 5 February 2018 19: 26 New
    0
    Mean and stupid, get paid twice!