Military Review

6 th rifle in Lutsk breakthrough

120
The 6 Rifle Regiment of the 2 Rifle Division is one of the best rifle regiments of the Russian Imperial Army. Part of the glory of the glory was the participation in Lutsk 1916 breakthrough.


Let's look at the picture of the regiment's participation in this historic offensive, based on the combat documents of the unit.

On May 22, in 4 hours, artillery, bombers and mortars opened heavy fire - it lasted most intensively until 10 hours. The fire was also fired on the whole day of 22 on May and on the night of 23 on May.



With well-aimed Russian artillery fire, by 16, the 22 watch in May destroyed a wire fence in front of the first line of enemy trenches. The enemy moved to the second line of his trenches, leaving in the first line of small groups of soldiers with machine guns.

At about 16 hours, the commander of 16, a company of warrant officer Ensign Lubenets, conducted reconnaissance of enemy positions - penetrating the first line of enemy trenches from the 8 fighters of his company, several rifles, grenades, rockets and a box of ammunition . Intelligence was established: the first line of enemy trenches was left, only small groups of enemy soldiers with machine guns remained in the first line, the character of fortification positions was revealed, three messages were found (including one covered one) connecting two lines of enemy trenches. The fact of the destruction of the first line obstacles and part of the enemy’s trenches was also established.



Throughout the night, artillery and artillery fire prevented the enemy from restoring destroyed artificial obstacles (only in some areas he managed to throw out the slingshots - but in the morning of May 23 they were pulled down by artillery).

On the morning of May 23, artillery, bombers and mortars again opened heavy fire at the first lines of the trenches and enemy barriers, which lasted until 9 in the morning - an hour of infantry attack.

Exactly in 9 hours, the first line (wave) of Russian shooters jumped out of the trenches, and after it, a minute later, the second. Their seats were immediately taken by the 3 and 4 waves. The latter were ordered to support the first - depending on the situation.

Simultaneously with the appearance of Russian fighters on the parapet, the gunners moved their fire to the third and fourth lines of the Austrian trenches. The first and second rifle waves swiftly attacked and captured the first line of enemy trenches. The 4 battalion companies, without stopping on the first, second, third and fourth lines of the trenches, immediately took up a position ahead of the fourth line of the enemy - moving swiftly and sweeping away everything in their path.



Having passed through the positions of the enemy battery, the companies of the 4 battalion found that the companies of the 5 rifle regiment that were next to them stopped on the first and second lines of the enemy's trenches - and the right flank was bare. The enemy launched a fierce attack — with the goal of cutting off the 4 battalion, which had advanced too far ahead, and to help out its battery. And the battalion had to stand 5 counterattack of the enemy. At the same time, the companies of the 5 Infantry Regiment, taking advantage of advancing the 4 Battalion of the 6 Infantry Regiment, also advanced and occupied the fourth line of enemy trenches.

At 16 hours, the 1 Battalion received an order to support the attack of the 4 Division by attacking the enemy’s left flank. Fulfilling this order, the 3 Company and the Half Company 1 Company attacked the enemy in the rear and captured the 15 officers, the 400 of the lower ranks and the 1 machine gun. After this attack, the enemy, who was keeping himself in the forward trenches, despite the breakthrough of the 6 Infantry Regiment, rushed back and, pursued by the 4 Division and the shooters, began a disorderly retreat. The Austrians began to surrender in masses.



The other half-company of the 1-th company, acting to the left of the 3-th and 4-th battalions, together with the companies of these battalions, rejected the enemy, covering the artillery battery. And the enemy battery (it was written about it above) was re-captured by half-men of the 1-th company, 10-th and 16-th companies. Having occupied the height southeast of Pokashevskaya grove, the regiment began to dig in — it was necessary to secure the occupied space behind it.

In the battle 23 th May at the places. Olyki 6 Rifle Regiment captured 6 guns, 6 machine guns, 2 mortar, 2 bomb bomb and many prisoners - 33 officer and 1473 lower ranks, as well as projectiles, engineering property, etc.

The next day, the regiment pursued the enemy, moving west - through the village. Pokashevo, Khorlupy and Romanovo. Reaching der. Kopche, the arrows stopped for the night, setting up the 3 battalion and the reconnaissance team on the der. Poddubtse.

Having received the order to pursue the enemy in the north-west direction, following through dd. Poddubtsy, Vorokhov, colony of the Bush, on the 25 of May at dawn the regiment continued the offensive.

At 6 in the morning hours, the 1 th battalion, marching in the vanguard, cramping enemy cavalry and guards, met with resistance from the enemy on the der line. Borukhovo, Cherry. The enemy took a position and dug in.

Having advanced under a hurricane rifle, machine-gun and artillery fire to a distance of 200 - 300 steps and having advanced a company of 2 battalion and a reconnaissance squad to extend the left flank of the enemy, the 1 battalion went on the attack. The enemy tried to stop the attackers with fierce fire - but an energetic attack of the seven companies and scout teams put him to flight. The company, which advanced to attack the left flank, attacked the enemy from the rear - this finally broke his tenacity, and he almost entirely in the 6 section, then the rifle regiment surrendered. In total, 16 officers and 953 lower ranks were captured in this battle, one machine gun was captured, a lot of telephone equipment, weapons and cartridges. The battlefield was littered with dead and wounded Austrians. In pursuit of the remnants of the broken enemy and passing der. Borukhovo, the regiment stopped and put itself in order, and then continued to move in a westerly direction - to the colony Gushcha.

6 th rifle in Lutsk breakthrough
Colonel Ivanov Ivan Vasilyevich. Commander of the 6 Rifle Regiment, holder of the Orders of St. George of the 4 degree, St. Vladimir of the 3 degree with swords and St. George weapons.

Under the strong rifle and artillery fire of the enemy, the regiment's chains, supported by the 2 battery of the 6 rifle artillery division, crawled to the enemy fortified positions to the distance of 300 steps, and rushed into the attack, picked up by other parts and reserves. After a few minutes, the companies of the 1 Battalion broke through the wire fence and, knocking over the defenders of the fortifications, captured the latter. Following the battalion that broke through 1, the rest of the battalions of the regiment rushed. The 1 and 2 battalions captured 4 officers, 423 lower ranks and 1 machine guns.

After this breakthrough, the Austrians in the whole area have a stake. Teremno backed away - to Lutsk. Two artillery harnesses rushed along the Lutsky Highway, but without guns abandoned by the enemy. The 1 and 2 battalions pursuing him opened fire with machine guns and fired at them, which further exacerbated the panic.

The 3 and 4 battalions, having crossed 5 25 hours on May on the left bank of the r. Styr, began to push the enemy from the city of Lutsk in the north-west direction. The Austrians tried to stay in the city - to destroy their warehouses.

The commander of a left-flank 10 company, warrant officer Kalashnikov, noticing in the outskirts of Lutsk with. The Red, burning, large quartermaster warehouse, on its own initiative, rushed along with the company in a village. Red and interrupted both the arsonists and the Austrians who were guarding the warehouse. Having taken possession of the warehouse, the 10-i company and several scouts of the 4-nd division began to extinguish the fire, and then, leaving the man with the ensign at the 30 guard, the company continued to follow the battalion.

At 7, in the morning, the 1 and 2 battalions crossed to the left bank of the morning. The crossing of the 8 and 7 rifle regiments was stopped by the enemy, entrenched in the trenches on the left bank of the river.

The 6 regiment in the morning 8 was ordered, acting on the enemy's flank, to facilitate the crossing of the 8 and 7 rifle regiments. To accomplish this task, the 6 th regiment was given two battalions: one from the 8 th, and one from the 7 th rifle regiment. The battalions, having crossed the bridge, moved forward, and under their onslaught the enemy began to retreat. Around 700, the man surrendered to the battalion of the 8 Infantry Regiment.

The 6 th infantry regiment was at the forefront of the Lutsk breakthrough - being the flagship of its combat sector. The losses and trophies of the regiment speak of the skillful action of the unit and the courage and heroism of the officers and shooters. During the period of the battles from 22 on May to 2 on June 1916, the losses were: 4 officer and 128 lower ranks killed, 15 officers and 1267 lower ranks. The trophies for the same period: 53 officer and 3024 captives in the ranks of the healthy and 3 officer and 214 in the lower ranks of the wounded, as well as 6 guns, 7 charging boxes, 8 machine guns, 2 bomb, 2 mortar, 1 flamethrowers, I went to the table, and I went to the table. , ammunition and engineering property.

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  1. XII Legion
    XII Legion 26 January 2018 05: 58
    22
    One of the officers of the 6th Infantry Regiment was Vladimir Ivanovich Nikolaev (1869-1937). Major General, Knight of Orders (only for World War II), St. George 4th degree, St. Vladimir 3rd degree with swords and St. George's weapons.

    In 1914-15 was an officer of the 6th infantry. Twice wounded.
    And in 1916, he already commanded another regiment.
    Being a member of the Red Army since the spring of 1918 and a gold watch from the PBC of the USSR with the inscription "To the staunch defender of the proletarian revolution" did not help - he ended his life at the Butovo training ground in Moscow.
    An interesting article about an important milestone in the military path of Russian imperial shooters.
    Thank you!
  2. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 26 January 2018 07: 31
    17
    A wonderful and very informative article. Russian historiography writes more often about the Lutsk breakthrough than about other operations of the Second World War, but there are practically no studies about the details of the battles of that time, about the combat work of individual units and the exploits of officers and lower ranks. Alexey Vladimirovich, this article, like many others, written by you is not only interesting, but also joyfully read, seeing how the memory of the valiant deeds of the Russian army of those years and the exploits of its heroes comes back from nonexistence. I sincerely thank you for the work done! hi
    1. OAV09081974
      26 January 2018 19: 29
      18
      Thank you very much dear Poruchik Teterin!
      Your appreciation is very pleasant. I always read your informative, competent and balanced comments with great pleasure.
      hi drinks
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 26 January 2018 07: 42
    14
    Wonderful article. once again showing how wonderful our ancestors fought in World War II.
    1. OAV09081974
      26 January 2018 19: 45
      19
      Thank you dear Olgovich!
      For a kind word, appreciation and constant positive drinks hi
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 26 January 2018 07: 48
    11
    Russia is holding on to the Ivanovs ...
  5. Square
    Square 26 January 2018 09: 41
    11
    A feat in every nuance
    Initiative of fighters and commanders
    It was a great army hi
  6. Mamka pula
    Mamka pula 26 January 2018 10: 59
    19
    From all the descendants of the heroes of the past
    To the author - a low bow love
    The story comes to life ..
  7. Some kind of compote
    Some kind of compote 26 January 2018 12: 06
    21
    The regiment advancing in positional warfare, without the support of tanks and aircraft, inflicted twice as many losses to the enemy as it did itself.
    The illustration of the fact that on the whole during the Brusilovsky breakthrough the attacking Russians suffered no more losses than the defending enemy.
    Unique operation!
    Fine good
  8. Ostrovsky
    Ostrovsky 26 January 2018 15: 57
    18
    Thanks to the author for exploring the heroic era of our history.
  9. Head Physician
    Head Physician 26 January 2018 16: 32
    18
    A lover of colonels of the Russian army.
    There is a whole selection, but they break off at the beginning of the 20th century. It is natural. At least some stories of regiments were added to the emigration.
    But the Great War is overboard. Usually.
    Therefore, the author does a great job filling this gap. Concrete space. After all, the era of the Great War (in terms of the efforts of the troops and episodes of courage and heroism of the personnel) cost the regiments of the Petrine army the entire 200-year-old era.
    I join all of the above comrades
  10. Head Physician
    Head Physician 26 January 2018 16: 41
    18
    I wish the author to continue the study of the military way of the Russian (and not only) parts of the era of the Great War
    1. OAV09081974
      26 January 2018 18: 07
      19
      Accepted. There are plans. Thank you and all colleagues for rating, tips and additions.
      Best regards
      hi
  11. kipage
    kipage 26 January 2018 20: 26
    16
    Well, they said in 16 the Russian army forgot how to fight!
  12. Serge72
    Serge72 26 January 2018 22: 01
    18
    Fire fighting, bayonet attacks, swiftness and initiative are the visiting card of Russian infantrymen (shooters).
    It’s a pity they didn’t bring to mind, they didn’t finish the adversary - after all, it was not long left.
    The enemy could not incapacitate the Russian front with open power.
    And then the Austro-Germans were forced to use a new weapon - ideological, worked "from the rear." Beheaded the empire.
    But in 1918 they themselves received a "knife in the back." Do not do what you do not want to get yourself.
    It is pleasant to recall the exploits of Russian weapons.
    Great, thank you!
  13. barbiturate
    barbiturate 27 January 2018 07: 07
    +1
    Eh, a great breakthrough came out against the Austrians, but the German divisions came up and that’s all ... The Stohod and the criminal extermination of the guard - the military basis of the throne. We fought well against the Austrians throughout the war, but the Germans were the main enemy, and nothing came of them, it was not the individual qualities of the soldier who decided (although the Germans were no worse in terms of the fighting qualities of our soldiers) but the general level of command and combat equipment technology, and here we were MUCH weaker than the Germans. Why did it happen, historians break their spears) Personally, I agree with Kersnovsky: “As a result, our platoons, which perfectly applied to the area, perfectly shot companies and showed private initiative, found themselves imprisoned in sluggish divisions, clumsy corps and loose armies”
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 27 January 2018 08: 19
      16
      Disagree
      our platoons, perfectly applied to the area, perfectly shooting companies and showing private initiative, the battalions were imprisoned in languid divisions, clumsy corps and loose armies
      It's about 14 years old
      About 16 years old, Kersnovsky wrote that excellent corps and divisions were forged - having rich combat experience.
      Eh, we got a great breakthrough against the Austrians, but only German divisions came up and that’s all

      After all, they rushed to the front of the German Southern Army too
      And it consisted almost entirely of Germans, and even what. One 1st division was worth it!
      And the counterattacks of the Germans as they kept (https://topwar.ru/133599-razbivshayasya-stal.htm
      l)

      And in the summer of 1917, during the June offensive, they broke through on all fronts - on the North, West, Southwest and Romanian. The North and West are Germans, the South-West are also Germans in many ways. Romanian is everything.
      It was a unique operation! The breakthrough was a success everywhere!
      But it was no longer possible to develop it - because of the democratizing infantry.
      E. Ludendorff wrote: "these were not the same old Russian soldiers." "The brain was obsessed with the ailment of revolution."
      P. Hindenburg wrote: “Kerensky’s troops are not Brusilov’s troops. Therefore, the Russian offensive at Stanislavov, despite the good prospects not quite succeeds. "
      That is, there was a rush, but the counterattacks were no longer held. Fortitude has disappeared.
      General V.I. Gurko wrote: "Our attack could only end with the defeat of the few regiments that have still preserved their combat readiness, which will move forward, leaving behind the bulk of the army, unable to repel even the most timid enemy counterattacks."
      Therefore, they hoped for the onset of 17 years (not without reason). If everything was as before.
      But ... The blow came from the rear, as Serge 72 correctly noted.
      1. barbiturate
        barbiturate 27 January 2018 13: 32
        +1
        Quote: Blue Cop
        About 16 years old, Kersnovsky wrote that excellent corps and divisions were forged - having rich combat experience.


        Where and in what context does he mention this? Separate formations may have differed for the better, but after the losses of 1914 and 1915 the army was already almost all of the reservists.
        “Before the war, the cadre of officers totaled 42 - 000 people. Together with reserve officers called up during the mobilization and made lieutenants in July-August, the number of officers reached 43. Losses in the years 000-80. amounted to 000 officers. " (Volkov S.V. Russian officer corps. - M., 1914.)

        “Losses in manpower exceeded all pre-war calculations and expectations. No one could have imagined that human losses would be so great, and that two fifths of these losses would be prisoners. From the beginning of the war to November 1, 1915, the Russian armies lost 4 people, including 360 prisoners. Of these losses, 000 (1%) were lost during the Great Retreat from May 740 to November 000, 2 ...

        The problem was the fact that during this period of time, the Russian army in force lost its entire personnel, including in the officer corps. In 1915, the last personnel were killed, which still remained in the army at the beginning of the campaign. 1 people the composition of the personnel army, which was before the war, melted before the start of the Great Retreat, in the operations of 423 and the winter campaign in the forests of East Prussia and on the mountain slopes of the Carpathians. Now, in the course of the 000 campaign, the country lost almost all of its trained supply, which was generally in the country before the war. Units of those who served in the military before the war remained in service: the army in the beginning of 1914 assumed the character of a militia army. ” (MV Oskin “Brusilovsky breakthrough”).

        Quote: Blue Cop
        After all, they rushed to the front of the German Southern Army too
        And it consisted almost entirely of Germans, and even what. One 1st division was worth it!
        And the counterattacks of the Germans as they kept (https://topwar.ru/133599-razbivshayasya-stal.htm
        l)


        About the Austrians: Considering that the Russian armies after the Great Retreat of 1915 are not operational, and their own fortified bands are insurmountable, the Austrian command transferred its best units to Italy - the 3rd, 10th, 34th, 43rd, 59th, 13th infantry divisions. A significant part of the heavy artillery also went there.
        “By the beginning of the offensive of the Southwestern Front in Italy, the Austrians held thirty-five divisions, and in Russia - thirty-nine.
        Thus, in the East, the Austrians did not have a strategic reserve, and all the calculations of the Austrian commander in chief (nominal commander in chief - Archduke Friedrich) are gene. F. Konrad von Götzendorf were built on the invincibility of defense. " (MV Oskin “Brusilovsky breakthrough”)
        All these mistakes and characteristic features of the Austro-Hungarian army, of course, contributed to the success of the Lutsk breakthrough of the Russian army.

        Now about the Germans: I don’t know where you get the information about the allegedly broken-out front held by the German Southern Army ??? Open any source and you will be told the following:

        "Then the Russian 8th, 11th, 7th and 9th armies (594 thousand men and 1938 guns) who went on the offensive broke through the well-fortified positional defense of the Austro-Hungarian front (486 thousand people and 1846 guns), under the command of Archduke Friedrich. The breakthrough was carried out immediately in 13 sections with subsequent development towards the flanks and in depth. "
        Where is the southern army of the Germans ?? Why tell a fairy tale?))
        But then historians tell the following about the actions of the Germans:
        “... the saturation of the Austro-Hungarian defensive order with the German troops made it possible to bring down and then stop the Russian offensive rush. The first captured Germans were taken in the Lutsk direction on May 27. The formation of combined army and operational groups of generals Bernhardi, Linsingen and other German military commanders made it possible at the most critical moment to retain key areas that served as the backbone for the restoration of common Austro-German defense in the East. German units interspersed in Austrian corps and armies had a higher combat potential, more trained rank and file and command staff, and, most importantly, more powerful equipment. It was in battles with the Germans that Russian shock groups were disheveled, which allowed the command of the Central Powers to keep the collapsing Eastern Front from the already emerging collapse after the brilliant May victories of the Russian South-Western Front south of Polesie. "

        About the breakthrough of 1917 and what happened there - just a separate conversation, although again you tell a fairy tale, about some general breakthroughs on all fronts))
        1. Blue cop
          Blue cop 27 January 2018 14: 10
          16
          Where and in what context does he mention this?

          In addition to Kersnovsky, this was written in the brochure “The Russian Army at the Beginning of 1917”. Of the 135 named infantry divisions (including guard, rifle, etc.) of the Russian army for which information is available, they are described as “battle-tested”, “first-class”, “good”, “with high combat reputation”, and “best quality "- 74 divisions; as “outstanding units” —19 divisions; and as “assault” - 4 divisions. That is, almost 72% of the number of infantry divisions were flatteringly characterized by our enemy.
          for this period of time, the Russian army in force has lost its entire personnel, including in the officer corps. In 1915, the last personnel were killed, which still remained in the army at the beginning of the campaign. 1 people the composition of the personnel army, which was before the war, melted before the start of the Great Retreat, in the operations of 423 and the winter campaign in the forests of East Prussia and on the mountain slopes of the Carpathians. Now, in the course of the 000 campaign, the country lost almost all of its trained supply, which was generally in the country before the war. Units of those who served in the military before the war remained in service: the army in the beginning of 1914 assumed the character of a militia army. ”

          Nevertheless, she acted perfectly in the 1916 campaign. Ensigns from the intelligentsia and the "police". In all countries, the personnel ran out of order - the Germans by 16, the Russians in 1915, the Austrians even earlier. And nothing - coped.
          Where is the southern army of the Germans ?? Why tell a fairy tale?)

          Look at the map and do not hang noodles))

          On the composition of the German Southern Army - take a look at the Reichsarchive.
          I don’t argue that German compounds were depreciated. But at what cost? Keegan writes about the Germans' loss of 350 thousand on the Russian front during this period.
          About the breakthrough of 1917 and what happened there - just a separate conversation, although again you tell a fairy tale, about some general breakthroughs on all fronts))

          Have you heard about the Tarnopol breakthrough? Russian troops broke into the operational space. Their counterblows later managed to be thrown back to their original position - why, he wrote above.
          The offensive of the 10th army on the Western Front July 6-10 - managed to overcome the tactical defenses of the Germans and even capture part of the artillery. The result is the same.
          Northern Front - The 5th Army carried out a tactical breakthrough of the enemy’s front, occupied the first line of its trenches and started a battle for the second. But the Russian units could not develop this success due to the lack of reserves necessary to build up the blow. There were reserves - they did not want to go into battle.
          The greatest success was achieved on July 11-12 on the Romanian front. Read for example the work of Vinogradov.
          Everything was, but the conversation is separate.
          1. Blue cop
            Blue cop 27 January 2018 14: 20
            16
            By the Summer Offensive of 1917
            What is on all fronts:
            1) June offensive of the South-Western Front (Tarnopol breakthrough) - 4 armies are involved (Special, 7th, 8th, 11th).
            2) July operation of the Western Front - 10th Army;
            3) The offensive of the 5th Army of the Northern Front;
            4) The offensive of the Romanian front (2 armies - 1st Romanian and 6th Russian).
            Those. In the Summer Offensive of 1917, 8 armies participated (of which 7 were Russian).
            The result is a hacking of the tactical (and the SWF and the Romanian fronts are also access to the operational space) enemy defenses. Not developed due to the revolutionary degradation of the bulk of the infantry. Artillery training is at its best.
            1. Blue cop
              Blue cop 27 January 2018 14: 24
              16
              That is, 8 armies - this is the GENERAL breakthroughs on ALL fronts (except the Caucasus).
              In addition to Oskin, read about Vetoshnikov, Kuznetsov, and Bazanov about the offensive of the South-West Fleet of 1916 (this is general, but much private). And also Lutsk breakthrough. Proceedings and materials. 1924
              1. barbiturate
                barbiturate 27 January 2018 15: 50
                +1
                Do not tell where you see breakouts of fronts ?? What to read, I myself know)
                1. Blue cop
                  Blue cop 27 January 2018 16: 01
                  15
                  Breakthroughs occurred on all 4 fronts. Where tactical, where operational.
                  What to read, I myself know)

                  Yes, it’s not very visible.
          2. barbiturate
            barbiturate 27 January 2018 15: 48
            +1
            Quote: Blue Cop
            In addition to Kersnovsky, this was written in the brochure “The Russian Army at the Beginning of 1917”. Of the 135 named infantry divisions (including guard, rifle, etc.) of the Russian army for which information is available, they are described as “battle-tested”, “first-class”, “good”, “with high combat reputation”, and “best quality "- 74 divisions; as “outstanding units” —19 divisions; and as “assault” - 4 divisions. That is, almost 72% of the number of infantry divisions were flatteringly characterized by our enemy.

            Yes? Fear when the enemy praises you, well, in the brochure, then of course - the whole truth about the Russian army) By the way, what kind of brochure? Who is author? I can not find))

            Quote: Blue Cop
            Look at the map and do not hang noodles))

            Brusilov himself hangs up the noodles when he writes that he attacked the Austro-Hungarians? This is even visible on your map. But did Brusilov break through the battle lines of the Germans?
            Listen to Ludendorff
            "... the Russians attacked the Austro-Hungarian front east of Lutsk, near Tarnopol and north of the Dniester. The attack was launched by the Russians without significant superiority of forces. In the area of ​​Tarnopol, General Count von Botmer, who joined the South German Army after General von Linzingen, ... He repulsed the Russian attack, but in the other two regions the Russians were completely successful and deeply broke through the Austro-Hungarian front
            Quote: Blue Cop

            I don’t argue that German compounds were depreciated. But at what cost? Keegan writes about the loss by the Germans of 350 thousand on the Russian front during this period


            Maybe 350, again, the numbers are all differently considered. For example, the Germans themselves
            "... Germany's losses amounted to 148 thousand people, including about 20 thousand prisoners"
            Reichsarchiv: Der Weltkrieg von 1914 bis 1918.Band 10, Berlin 1936, S. 566


            Quote: Blue Cop
            Have you heard about the Tarnopol breakthrough? Russian troops broke into the operational space. Their counterblows later managed to be thrown back to their original position - why, he wrote above.
            The offensive of the 10th army on the Western Front July 6-10 - managed to overcome the tactical defenses of the Germans and even capture part of the artillery. The result is the same.
            Northern Front - The 5th Army carried out a tactical breakthrough of the enemy’s front, occupied the first line of its trenches and started a battle for the second. But the Russian units could not develop this success due to the lack of reserves necessary to build up the blow. There were reserves - they did not want to go into battle.
            The greatest success was achieved on July 11-12 on the Romanian front. Read for example the work of Vinogradov.
            Everything was, but the conversation is separate.


            You do not confuse tactical successes and the occupation of one of two trench lines with strategic operations with breakthroughs of the enemy’s front, such swings are called positional warfare when they take each other a kilometer a week and run out of steam
            1. Blue cop
              Blue cop 27 January 2018 15: 56
              15
              Reichsarchiv: Der Weltkrieg von 1914 bis 1918.Band 10, Berlin 1936, S. 566

              Yes, did you open it?
              In the area of ​​Tarnopol gene. Count von Botmer, who joined after the gene. von Linsingen in command of the South German Army
              Yes, why didn’t they recognize the existence of this army before? Or is it necessary according to the rules of trolling?
              You do not confuse tactical successes and the occupation of one of two trench lines with strategic operations with breakthroughs of the enemy’s front, such swings are called positional warfare when they take each other a kilometer a week and run out of steam

              Hello, I wrote - tactical defense is over. It was not possible to develop - the infantry refused to continue the offensive.
              And the South-Western and Romanian fronts entered the operational space and captured large trophies. And the Germans in the 1917 campaign suffered greater losses on the Russian front than the Austrians.
              Yes? Fear when the enemy praises you, well, in the brochure, then of course - the whole truth about the Russian army) By the way, what kind of brochure? Who is author? I can not find))

              Where are you looking for?
              Brusilov himself hangs up the noodles when he writes that he attacked the Austro-Hungarians?

              Do not distort. You hung noodles by rejecting the existence of the German Southern Army.
            2. Blue cop
              Blue cop 27 January 2018 16: 40
              15
              But did Brusilov break through the battle lines of the Germans?

              The 7th Army of General D. G. Shcherbachev, on May 24, clashed with the main forces of the South German Army. The brilliant breakthrough of the 2nd Army Corps of General V.E.Flug of the Yazlovets’s positions (which were considered impregnable), the defeat of the Hoffmann Corps by the central corps of the 7th Army decided the outcome of the battle.
              That is, the answer is yes.
              We ask the author to dwell in more detail on the operations of the 7th and 11th armies of the SWF, since the confrontation with German troops is of particular interest.
        2. Gopnik
          Gopnik 28 January 2018 14: 57
          +1
          Quote: barbiturate
          The problem was the fact that during this period of time, the Russian army in force lost its entire personnel, including in the officer corps. In 1915, the last personnel were killed, which still remained in the army at the beginning of the campaign. 1 people the composition of the personnel army, which was before the war, melted before the start of the Great Retreat, in the operations of 423 and the winter campaign in the forests of East Prussia and on the mountain slopes of the Carpathians. Now, in the course of the 000 campaign, the country lost almost all of its trained supply, which was generally in the country before the war. Units of those who did military service before the war remained in service: the army in the beginning of 1914 assumed the character of a militia army


          Well, this is usually for all participants in both world wars. Someone a little earlier (Austria-Hungary), someone a little bit later (Germany).
    2. Blue cop
      Blue cop 27 January 2018 08: 23
      16
      Stohod separate conversation. Severe terrain and mistakes of command. We say because of the Rzhevskaya massacre that in the Second World War were weaker than the Germans?
      So we were not MUCH weaker than the Germans. ALL opponents were inferior to them - but by interest, and not at times. Therefore, they fought together.
      But they learned to beat them too.
      1. barbiturate
        barbiturate 27 January 2018 13: 36
        +1
        I do not agree with you on anything, but such disputes need to be conducted personally, and not knock on the key, believe what you want)
        1. Blue cop
          Blue cop 27 January 2018 14: 12
          16
          And you believe what you want
          Your consent is not particularly interesting
          And the fact that disputes need to be conducted personally, I do not argue with this)
          1. Blue cop
            Blue cop 27 January 2018 14: 41
            16
            Although about what - if
            Open any source and you will be told the following:
            you confuse literature (Oskin) with the source (document). And the documents do not say that
            Then the Russian 8th, 11th, 7th and 9th armies (594 thousand men and 1938 guns) who went on the offensive broke through the well-fortified positional defense of the Austro-Hungarian front (486 thousand people and 1846 guns)
            and that by the beginning of the Brusilovsky breakthrough, the South-Western Front included 573 thousand bayonets, 60 thousand sabers, 1770 light and 168 heavy guns (of which 596 field and 74 heavy in the 8th army in the direction of the main attack) .
            The Austro-German troops had 448 thousand bayonets and 27 thousand sabers, 1,3 thousand light and 545 heavy artillery pieces. When the German Kaiser visited the site of the German Southern Army, he was delighted and announced that he had not seen such positions even in the West.
            That is, the balance of power did not favor a large-scale offensive.
            And what a result!
            1. barbiturate
              barbiturate 27 January 2018 15: 33
              +1
              Quote: Blue Cop
              you confuse literature (Oskin) with the source (document).

              Yes? You are a strange person, call your number as if it refutes mine)) And Oskin writes with reliance on documents, like any historical research. DISTINCTIVE discrepancies in numbers are constantly obtained from different historians, so what?
              And the numbers I didn’t give you were Oskin at all, these are the figures of Brusilov himself laughing
              Once again I quote for you Brusilov himself, what kind of forces he had and WHO HE ATTACKED (maybe he forgot the Southern Army of the Germans? laughing )

              "The artillery preparation lasted from 3 a.m. June 4 (May 22, Old Style) until 9 a.m. June 6 (May 24, SS) and led to the severe destruction of the first line of defense and the partial neutralization of enemy artillery. Then switched to the offensive The Russians of the 8th, 11th, 7th and 9th armies (594 thousand people and 1938 guns) broke through the well-fortified positional defense of the Austro-Hungarian front (486 thousand people and 1846 guns), commanded by Archduke Frederick. The breakthrough was carried out immediately at 13 sites with subsequent development towards the flanks and in depth.

              By noon on June 6 (May 24, SS), 900 officers and more than 40 thousand lower ranks were captured, 77 guns, 134 machine guns and 49 bombers were captured. By June 9 (May 27, SS), 1240 officers and more than 71 thousand lower ranks were captured, 94 guns, 179 machine guns, 53 bomb and mortars were captured

              !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Brusilov A.A. My memories. - M .: Military Publishing, 1983.P. 199.

              But I’m telling you once again that small discrepancies in numbers are quite acceptable, although you rushed to refute my and Brusilov’s numbers with your own and didn’t even cite references to the “document”)

              Well, Brusilov himself spoke about the result
              "This operation did not give any strategic results, and could not give, because the decision of the military council on April 1 was not carried out in any way. The Western front did not strike, and the Northern Front had the motto familiar to us from the Japanese war." patience, patience and patience. "The headquarters, in my conviction, did not fulfill its purpose in any way to manage the entire Russian armed force. The grandiose victorious operation, which could be carried out with the proper course of action of our supreme high command in 1916, was unforgivably lost."
              - Brusilov A.A. My memories. - M .: Military Publishing, 1983.P. 215, 214
              1. Blue cop
                Blue cop 27 January 2018 15: 38
                15
                IT IS HE ATTACKED (maybe the Southern Army of the Germans and forgot?

                Have you seen the map?
                The 7th and 11th armies of the SWF acted against the German Southern Army.
                The Germans themselves write about this in detail) And other SOURCES.
                I do not know what Brusilov forgot - he is a memoirist, he can write about anything and what he personally is interested in. By the way, he did not write that he had not fought with the German troops.
                You can write any large posts you want, but from the fact of the AUSTRIAN-GERMAN and not the Austrian troops that were defeated during the Brusilov breakthrough - do not turn your back)) And the Russians beat them in droves - that the Austrians, that the Germans
                1. Blue cop
                  Blue cop 27 January 2018 15: 44
                  15
                  This operation did not give any strategic results, and could not give, because the decision of the military council on April 1 was not implemented in any way. The Western Front did not strike a major blow, and the Northern Front had as its motto the “patience, patience and patience” familiar to us from the Japanese War.

                  Yes, but there was a strategic result anyway.
                  The enemy threw parts of 45 divisions, lost a huge territory, suffered heavy losses.
                  L. V. Vetoshnikov also noted: “The offensive of the Russian armies on the southwestern front shocked the Austrian forces in Galicia and Bukovina, causing alarm among the command of the central powers. The complete defeat of the 4th and 7th Austrian armies forced the Austro-German command to suspend the offensive in Trentino and eased the situation for the Anglo-French near Verdun. ”
                  The crisis of the reserves of the Germans.
                  If the Allies launched the SYNCHRONOUS offensive — that is, they started their Somme earlier, then the war could have ended earlier.
                  1. barbiturate
                    barbiturate 27 January 2018 17: 58
                    +1
                    Quote: Blue Cop
                    Yes, why didn’t they recognize the existence of this army before? Or is it necessary according to the rules of trolling?

                    Quote: Blue Cop
                    Do not distort. You hung noodles by rejecting the existence of the German Southern Army.


                    Well, where did I reject the EXISTENCE of the South German army? Do you ascribe something to me, I repeat to you again, although I’m already tired, where do you see the BREAKTHROUGH on the front held by the South German army ?? If you are both historians and Brusilov yourself (you better than him poor fools know who he fought with and what fronts he broke through ?? laughing ) EXPLAIN and DRAW ON THE MAP with ARROWS (on your own map) that our armies defeated the 8th and 9th armies on the 4th and 7th, respectively, and the main blow was delivered against them (watch the number of arrows on the map). Some tactical successes against the Southern army of the Germans were, but insignificant and were stopped by counterattacks. Brusilov himself writes about this to you, where do you see the rout of the GERMANS? I WOULD ABOUT THIS AND WRITTEN IN MY FIRST FIRST POST, THAT SUCCESSES AGAINST THE AUSTRIANS WERE HUGE, BUT THE ONLY THE GERMANS WERE SUITABLE, ALL ENDED !!!
                    Nemchura tightened reserves and everything quickly ended in the Kovel massacre, Brusilov himself writes all this and all historians are sane. I quoted Brusilov, as well as quotations by historians and Ludendorff about the allegedly "torn" front of the South German army.
                    So you can write at once 5 answers posts, as you do (tired of answering), but I do not see the defeated Germans at the army level. An attempt to pass off tactical successes for some sort of breakthroughs of the fronts is very biased. In conclusion, another interesting quote by Brusilov about the technical development of our army, so to speak, its material side
                    Brusilov was often reproached during his lifetime that his successes were bought with huge blood of soldiers and that’s what he answered (well, you refute him, you know better in the 21st century) laughing

                    "" I heard reproaches that I did not spare dear soldier's blood. I honestly cannot plead guilty of this. True, since the case began, I urgently required bringing it to a successful conclusion. As for the amount of blood spilled, it depended not from me, but from the technical equipment that was supplied to me from above, and it wasn’t my fault that there were not enough rounds and shells, there was a lack of heavy artillery, the air fleet was ridiculously small and poor-quality, and so on. "influenced the increase in our losses by those killed and wounded. But what do I have to do with it? There was no shortage of my urgent requirements, and that’s all I could do."
                    1. Blue cop
                      Blue cop 27 January 2018 18: 17
                      15
                      Well, where did I reject the EXISTENCE of the South German army?

                      This is yours (see above)
                      Where is the southern army of the Germans ?? Why tell a fairy tale?))

                      That is, rejected, and now get out.
                      As for the breakthrough of its front, the 7th Army of General D. G. Shcherbachev clashed on May 24 with the main forces of the South German Army. The brilliant breakthrough of the 2nd Army Corps of General V.E.Flug of the Yazlovets’s positions (which were considered impregnable), the defeat of the Hoffmann Corps by the central corps of the 7th Army decided the outcome of the battle.
                      I wrote this too.
                      The 11th and 7th armies acted against it. Which acted by the way - more successfully than the 8th even.
                      If you do not believe the research of professional Soviet military historians, maps, etc. - It's your problems.
                      But Brusilov does not refute the existence of this army and the fact that its front defeated it. In my memoirs, I’m writing something, I focus on something, but not on something. Memory is a selective thing.
                      But I’ll tell you what Vyacheslav Olegovich - I had previously guessed who Siala and Mauritius are, and now I understand who such a murrow and uncle murzik are. And specifically disappointed. Yeah ...
                      Uh
                      1. Blue cop
                        Blue cop 27 January 2018 18: 19
                        15
                        Brusilov was often reproached during his lifetime that his successes were bought by the huge blood of soldiers

                        If anything, the losses were at least EQUAL. For the advancing and defending. What is nonsense for an offensive in positional warfare. Refute if you can.
                        A soldier’s blood is a pity. But at a later time they did not spare her - even more
                      2. barbiturate
                        barbiturate 27 January 2018 19: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: Blue Cop
                        Well, where did I reject the EXISTENCE of the South German army?
                        This is yours (see above)
                        Where is the southern army of the Germans ?? Why tell a fairy tale?))
                        That is, rejected, and now get out.


                        Okay, I don’t want to be with you anymore laughing
                        Do you read my posts? I explained to you, so stop lying, re-read Brusilov and historians, read WHICH ARMIES AND WHICH STATES were defeated and where they broke through the front and think - Where is the South German Army here ?? Why tell a fairy tale?))

                        Quote: Blue Cop
                        As for the breakthrough of its front, the 7th Army of General D. G. Shcherbachev clashed on May 24 with the main forces of the South German Army. The brilliant breakthrough of the 2nd Army Corps of General V.E.Flug of the Yazlovets’s positions (which were considered impregnable), the defeat of the Hoffmann Corps by the central corps of the 7th Army decided the outcome of the battle.
                        I wrote this too.


                        Do you write a lot of things, any links? Quotes? About the rout of the southern army of the Germans, how they were beaten "in full force" laughing
                        I already flunked you with quotes from Brusilov himself and the historians, Ludendorff, where they directly say who they defeated and where they broke through the front with what results. What battle did the outcome decide?)) The outcome of the Brusilovsky breakthrough? or what ??)) laughing That's just the point that you write and do not understand that))

                        Quote: Blue Cop
                        The 11th and 7th armies acted against it. Which acted by the way - more successfully than the 8th even.
                        If you do not believe the research of professional Soviet military historians, maps, etc. - It's your problems.


                        Your fantasies, why should it be my problems? laughing The historians I read and the memoirs of the performers themselves talk about
                        "The 11th and 7th armies broke through the front, but the offensive was stopped by enemy counter-attacks." They write dryly, without emphasis on defeats and prisoners, it is NOT at all how about the defeat of the Austro-Hungarian armies, because neither a sensible breakthrough nor a defeat of the Germans was received and then rolled onto Kovel, etc.

                        Quote: Blue Cop
                        But Brusilov does not refute the existence of this army and the fact that its front defeated it. In my memoirs, I’m writing something, I focus on something, but not on something. Memory is a selective thing.

                        Wow, don’t tell me, do you think he wrote everything from memory and gave numbers? Armies, etc ?? laughing laughing In this way, I can explain anything to you, just Gagarin did not remember that he flew to the Moon, and not around the earth, you know the memory is selective)))

                        Well, about the losses, then I agree. The Austrians lost a lot, which balances very much, their troops generally fought very differently, in general I will say this - our Austrians have developed a superiority complex (and deservedly), and the Germans have an inferiority complex (also deservedly)
    3. Gopnik
      Gopnik 28 January 2018 14: 48
      +1
      The Germans were also sometimes beaten - the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation or winter Prasnysh, for example. But, in general, the German army, I think, was better in both world wars compared to all the participants. Moreover, in WWI this is understandable and logical.
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 28 January 2018 18: 32
        15
        The Germans were also sometimes beaten - the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation or winter Prasnysh, for example.
        Definitely.
        The First August Operation, September 1914., the ring near Lodz November 1914., Zhuravno 1915. etc.
        On the whole, the German army, I think, was better in both world wars compared to all the participants. Moreover, in WWI this is understandable and logical.

        Totally agree
  14. Blue cop
    Blue cop 27 January 2018 19: 24
    15
    barbiturate,
    Listen to you.
    I repeat the 10th time about YAZLOVETS.
    The 7th Army of General D. G. Shcherbachev clashed on May 24 with the main forces of the South German Army. The brilliant breakthrough of the 2nd Army Corps of General V.E.Flug of the position at Yazlovets (considered impregnable), the defeat of the Hoffmann Corps by the central corps of the 7th Army decided the outcome of the battle.
    Hoffmann Corps - GERMAN. Read the Reichsarchive, which is not seen in the eye.
    Reichsarchiv: Der Weltkrieg von 1914 bis 1918.

    So - he is without
    by
    laughing
    Read about the operations of the 7th and 11th armies. Not memoirists like Brusilov and Ludendorf, but the research of Soviet military historians of the 20-30s, war veterans and commanders of the Red Army. I also provided different links. For example Lutsk breakthrough. Proceedings and materials. 1924.
    The southern German army suffered a severe defeat. The fact is the place to be.
    Maybe these battles will illuminate us - enlightenment is also very important, especially for such barbiturates laughing
    1. barbiturate
      barbiturate 27 January 2018 21: 48
      +1
      Blue, are you really blue laughing
      Quote: Blue Cop
      I repeat the 10th time about YAZLOVETS.

      So what?? where is the breakthrough of the front? Do you even know German tactics? these are not Austrians, they kept their most combat-ready units in depth, followed by counterattacks and all. This is a breakthrough only in the brains of the blue cops)) Brusilov himself and historians tell you this.

      Quote: Blue Cop
      The 7th Army of General D. G. Shcherbachev clashed on May 24 with the main forces of the South German Army. The brilliant breakthrough of the 2nd Army Corps of General V.E.Flug of the position at Yazlovets (considered impregnable), the defeat of the Hoffmann Corps by the central corps of the 7th Army decided the outcome of the battle.
      Hoffmann Corps - GERMAN. Read the Reichsarchive, which is not seen in the eye.
      Reichsarchiv: Der Weltkrieg von 1914 bis 1918.
      So - he is without
      by


      Well, firstly, since you didn’t see the Reichsarchive in your eyes, you DO NOT KNOW the composition of the Southern German Army. German is so, only by name and command.
      "The core of the German Southern Army was the task force of General P. von Hoffmann, which included German and Austrian units. Also, the Austrian 6th (Gen. A. Arts von Straussenburg), 9th (Field Marshal-Lieutenant) R. Kralicek) and the 13th (Gen. A. Remen zu Behrensfeld) army corps, as well as the 39th German Infantry Division of General Oppeln-Bronikowski. "
      Not a lot of Germans in the GERMAN army, huh? laughing One division and mixed Hoffman task force.
      Now for the blue cops I explain where you read about the rout !! corps laughing (but in fact it is a mixed Austro-German task force) "Hoffmann"? The case must have a NUMBER !!, tell me the number of the Hoffman GERMAN BODY ?? Our defense broke through, but were stopped by counterattacks. Here is an article on topvar
      https://topwar.ru/96527-upuschennye-vozmozhnosti-
      brusilovskogo-proryva.html

      Here, too, a certain Hoffmann corps is mentioned with a tongue twister and the numbers of our corps, Austrian, are given right here, but the numbers of the HERMAN HERMAN HOUSING do not lead, you mean?
      And further on in the text, if you read something, and not just write, the storytellers talk about the subsequent counterattacks - you see, they severely "raided" the Germans Southern Army - and that’s all, the counterattacks were repelled and General Shcherbachev DECIDED TO STOP THE ATTACK.
      So don’t you turn me on stupid, or give a specific link to the Reichsarchive, which indicates the number and composition of the Hoffman GERMAN Corps, or I can answer you the same way - do not lie and read the Reichsarchiv: Der Weltkrieg von 1914 bis 1918. laughing


      Quote: Blue Cop
      Read about the operations of the 7th and 11th armies. Not memoirists like Brusilov and Ludendorf, but the research of Soviet military historians of the 20-30s, war veterans and commanders of the Red Army. I also provided different links. For example Lutsk breakthrough. Proceedings and materials. 1924.


      Why should I trust the Soviet historians of the 20-30s more than the direct participants and commanders of the events, as well as the numerous and respected historians who write with a deep knowledge of the subject and references to the source? On the contrary, I would not have trusted the studies written in such a difficult period of our history or would have sought confirmation from other sources that sincere enthusiasts of this issue, such as Oskin, for example, have already done. Yes, and not the same historians that you are talking about helped Brusilov write memoirs during the Soviet era? laughing
      Quote: Blue Cop
      The southern German army suffered a severe defeat. The fact is the place to be.

      Defeat - it may very well be, although she quickly recovered from her initial stun, precisely thanks to the FEW NUMBER OF GERMAN TROOPS IN THIS GERMAN ARMY laughing But a deep breakthrough in this area did not work, and even a strong counterattack began.
      So WHERE is the rout of the GERMANS? Maybe that's why no one writes about the rout of the Germans, but they write only a huge number of prisoners and trophies taken from the Austro-Hungarian armies.
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 27 January 2018 22: 18
        15
        Blue, are you really laughing blue and also a cop

        Send insults, since there is nothing to say
        Smart ass! It was called - the Hoffmann (Hoffman) corps. And here is his commander. Max Hoffman Typical "Austrian" general

        Learn the structure of the German army. A number of formations were named after commanders - from corps to army groups.
        But the commander of the German Southern Army, Count Botmer, also a typical "Austrian" laughing

        By the way, they forgot about the Marshall corps (in addition to the Hoffmann corps) - also German.
        So - he acted against the 11th army. Kuznetsov. Campaign 1916 M., 1941 S. 60.
        sincere enthusiasts of this issue, such as Oskin
        Just the same, many "enthusiasts" very much relied heavily on the works of 20-30. - which by the way were written in times with the highest research culture and highly qualified people. Former generals - such as Brusilov.
        And EVERYONE writes about the defeat of the Austro-German troops. Recently there was an article on Broken Steel on Broken Steel - on the 10th German Corps. By the way, the army of A. von Linsingen lost over 82 thousand people in May battles, or 51% of the initial composition (the German 10th Corps - over 80%). If you think that there were few Germans in the South GERMAN army - then they increased it. The total losses of the Germans in the 1916 campaign on the Russian front - 400 thousand, most of them during the offensive Southwest Front.
  15. barbiturate
    barbiturate 27 January 2018 22: 06
    +1
    Well, it's time to sleep, but the blue cop don’t sleep !! look for the number of the Hoffmann corps in the Rehsarhive)) or they write here, on topvar in the article (I gave you the link)
    "In the direction of the main attack, the 2nd Corps of General Floog, together with the Turkestan Division, broke the enemy’s 2-3 trench lines on the first day. On May 25 (June 7), our troops broke into the Yazlovets on the shoulders of the enemy. May 25 attacked the central 16th Corps General Savvich and overthrew the 6th Austro-Hungarian Corps. On May 27, the right-flank 22nd Corps of Brinken attacked and defeated the Hoffmann Corps. The Austrian troops, suffering heavy casualties, retreated behind the Strypa River in disorder. . "

    So all the buildings have numbers, but no German)) to see the most unworthy gathered in this building)) They even regretted the number. laughing Probably the 666th German corps)) Although where are the Germans here, they themselves write "the right-flank 22nd Corps of Brinken and defeated the Hoffmann's enemy corps. The Austrian troops, having suffered heavy losses, retreated behind the Strypa river in disarray." About the Germans and do not say right there, "Austrian troops .."
    According to the blue cop, the Germans were defeated from the nameless corps, and the Austrians fled))) laughing
    With laughter you can burst))
    Well, it's time to sleep)
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 27 January 2018 22: 29
      15
      Are you running away?
      Okay, sleep.
      Read about the GERMAN corps and the army groups of the PMV.
      This did not prevent them from being Germanic.
      By the way, the Marshall corps was still active in the Carpathians (the German 48th Reserve and 3rd Guards Infantry and Austro-Hungarian 19th Infantry Divisions. Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Vand 8. Sommer und Herbst 1915. Berlin, 1932. s . 592).
      Here he is - Wolf Marshall

      And from his track record
      02.08.1914/XNUMX/XNUMX diensttuender General à la suite SM des Kaiser und Königs (Orderly General a la suite in HM Wilhelm II's court)
      24.12.1914/XNUMX/XNUMX General der Kavallerie (Charakter)
      24.12.1914/3/XNUMX XNUMX. Garde-Infanterie-Division (replaced Karl Litzmann)
      17.02.1915/XNUMX/XNUMX Korps Marschall
      18.04.1915/XNUMX/XNUMX Generalleutnant (Patent)
      27.01.1916/XNUMX/XNUMX Generaladjutant SM Wilhelm II (Adjutant General to HM Wilhelm II)
      18.04.1916/XNUMX/XNUMX Garde Reservekorps (replaced Max von Gallwitz)
      19.11.1918/4/XNUMX XNUMX. Armee (replaced Friedrich Sixt von Armin)
      30.12.1918/XNUMX/XNUMX außer Dienst
      Specially highlighted in bold))
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 27 January 2018 22: 31
        15
        There were other NAME corps of the Kaiser army.
        Including mix
        And not only
        Somehow
        1. barbiturate
          barbiturate 28 January 2018 07: 34
          +1
          You simply got confused in all these buildings and your desire to show the rout of the GERMANS - I did not argue about the rout of the Austrians, it was a glorious thing laughing
          But I repeat, you are confused)
          Let’s go through the Hoffmann’s corps first (let’s be the Hoffmann) wink

          Quote: Blue Cop
          Smart ass! It was called - the Hoffmann (Hoffman) corps. And here is his commander. Max Hoffman


          You confuse the FAMOUS GERMAN MAX Hoffmann and ATTENTION !!!! - AUSTRIAN GENERAL Peter von Hoffmann !!!!!!
          So, under the leadership of this AUSTRIAN GENERAL, an OPERATIONAL GROUP was created !!! -
          "The Hoffmann task force., Which was part of the German. Southern Army, consisted of the 1st German infantry division (general von Comte) and the Austro-Hungarian 55th infantry division (general Drd) and the 131st infantry Brigades (Colonel Berger) "
          "During the Brusilov breakthrough, the Hoffmann task force was the only one who could provide worthy resistance to the Russian armies."

          Above, I already brought you the composition of the Southern Army:
          "The core of the German Southern Army was the task force of General P. von Hoffmann, which included German and Austrian units. Also, the Austrian 6th (Gen. A. Arts von Straussenburg), 9th (Field Marshal-Lieutenant) R. Kralicek) and the 13th (Gen. A. Remen zu Behrensfeld) army corps, as well as the 39th German Infantry Division of General Oppeln-Bronikowski. "

          So, we see the whole TWO GERMAN DIVISIONS and NO HERMAN Hoffmann Hull !! This is the South GERMAN army))) And where are the Germans ??)))
          Moreover, our troops, precisely because of the incorporation of GERMAN units into the South GERMAN army laughing (what a mockery of history, the German army with almost no German units laughing ) achieved here a simple wedge in defense, albeit a good wedge, but were stopped by counterattacks, repelled these counterattacks and EVERYTHING! Then we went in a different direction - to the place where the AUSTRIANS were REALLY defeated.

          So I tried to explain to you that there was NO DESTRUCTION OF THE SOUTH GERMAN ARMY, just as there were NO HERMAN HERMAN HOUSING and, in general, GERMANS, it was extremely SMALL !! during the breakthrough of Brusilov, it was later, so that the front would not completely fall apart, the Germans began to transfer PURE GERMAN units to the direction of our main blow after the breakthrough and how it ended, we know, and Brusilov himself told.

          Well, now one more thing - Hoffmann's OPERATIONAL GROUP was equal in strength to CASE and many, FOR SIMPLICITY OF PERCEPTION, call it (operational group) - CASE, but only NOT GERMAN, but AUSTRIAN !!!!!!!!!!! That's what foreigners write

          "das kuk Korps" Hofmann "mit der deutschen 1. Division, kuk 55. Infanterie-Division und 131. Landsturmbrigade stand in der Mitte und"

          Black and white - das kuk Korps „Hofmann“ - AUSTRIAN - kuk !!!!!!!!
          Was there a HERMAN HERMAN HOUSING in the GERMAN ARMY? And was he defeated? ANSWER - NO !!!!!!!

          That is why neither historians nor Brusilov himself have ever recollected any German DESTRUCTIONS during the Brusilovsky breakthrough - there were almost no Germans, and even their defeat on the site of the Southern Army.

          Time is short, as it appears, maybe we'll figure it out with the Marshal’s corps, it’s also very interesting there))
          1. Blue cop
            Blue cop 28 January 2018 08: 00
            15
            we see the whole TWO GERMAN DIVISIONS and NO HERMAN Hoffmann Hull !! This is the South GERMAN army))) And where are the Germans ??)))

            laughing
            So 2 divisions = corps. Itself wrote - 2 GERMAN divisions.
            Buddy - how do you explain the Marshal’s corps?
            I look - what is uncomfortable - you bypass your attention
            But in its composition there are 2 more German divisions - the 48th reserve and 3rd guards infantry + Austro-Hungarian 19th infantry divisions. (Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Vand 8. Sommer und Herbst 1915. Berlin, 1932. s. 592).
            How many already - 4 German divisions in the Southern Army? )))
            And what is your nonsense that there WAS NOT NAME compounds in the German army but only license plates?
            But what then: the army groups of Wojrsch, von Scholz, Gronau, Strantz, q, Elsa, Gundel.
            And the corps: Gerok, Marshall, etc.
            There were consolidated for example buildings. Yes, a lot more.
            1. Blue cop
              Blue cop 28 January 2018 08: 03
              15
              I did not write that the GERMAN troops were defeated - but the AUSTRIAN-GERMAN, as dear historians write. Of course, the Austrians were an order of magnitude more. Until the Germans, until 45 (!!!) divisions, they were transferred to Galicia in the summer and autumn of 1916.
              In addition to the few that were already part of the South German Army, which suffered a serious defeat during the Brusilov offensive.
            2. Blue cop
              Blue cop 28 January 2018 08: 14
              15
              So you confirmed my words that several German divisions were on the Galician front. Just in the South Army.
              1st germ. infantry. divisions (general von Comte)
              - your quote
              And I wrote above -
              one 1st division was worth it!

              So I see no reason to break my spears
            3. barbiturate
              barbiturate 28 January 2018 08: 42
              +1
              Quote: Blue Cop
              So 2 divisions = corps. Itself wrote - 2 GERMAN divisions.

              laughing
              don’t tell, two divisions do not constitute a corps, if there is no unified command and headquarters for this corps, are you fooling around? laughing

              Quote: Blue Cop
              Buddy - how do you explain the Marshal’s corps?
              I look - what is uncomfortable - you bypass your attention
              But in its composition there are 2 more German divisions - the 48th reserve and 3rd guards infantry + Austro-Hungarian 19th infantry divisions. (Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Vand 8. Sommer und Herbst 1915. Berlin, 1932. s. 592).


              So your explanation of your nonsense about Max Hoffmann laughing (ear) and the Austrian Hoffmann hull was not enough? laughing HOW WELL DID YOU SILENT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE AND EASY - LITERACY laughing MIXING THE GENERALS and THE ARMY and still blaming me for something))

              Quickly glanced over the Marshall's case smile , as I knew, where are the Germans? WHERE IS THE GERMAN HOUSING?
              All foreign sources give the same thing - seconded to the AUSTRIAN ARMY and Commanded the Marshall Corps consisting of Austrian units. WHERE IS THE GERMAN HOUSING HERE? WHAT DIVISIONS INCLUDED? Even a cursory analysis speaks of the German commander of the Austrian units, here you have the GERMAN CASE.
              So you showed me a picture of General Marshall, and next to the picture did you read the text?))

              "In February 1915, the General was selected to command the newly-established Korps Marschall, formed from various Austrian infantry divisions and fighting in the Bukovina region in support of Armeegruppe Pflanzer-Baltin."

              Translation for you

              "In February 1915, the general was elected command of the recently created Marshall Corps, formed from various Austrian infantry divisions and fighting in Bukovina in support of the Pfanzer-Baltin Armieegruppa"

              You provide a link to 1915 !! year and you don’t even understand where the GUARDIAN RESERVE HOUSING of the GERMANS ends and the MARSHAL FROM AUSTRIANS begins))

              Quote: Blue Cop
              How many already - 4 German divisions in the Southern Army? )))


              Enough to lie already, you’re already tired of me, you’re either a bugger, or a cop or all together))
              Marshal's corps from the Austrian units included in the composition of the southern army? NO!!! So go to the stump, already tired of their ignorance.

              Quote: Blue Cop
              And what is your nonsense that there WAS NOT NAME compounds in the German army but only license plates?
              But what then: the army groups of Wojrsch, von Scholz, Gronau, Strantz, q, Elsa, Gundel.
              And the corps: Gerok, Marshall, etc.
              There were consolidated for example buildings. Yes, a lot more.



              Do not breach, I asked you to bring the NUMBER OF THE GERMAN CASE, so you messed up that he was German and messed with the general, mixed up the army in addition))
              PURE GERMAN DIVISIONS - Had NUMBERING, google your bullshit yourself and see that everyone there
              Quote: Blue Cop
              army groups of Wojrsch, von Scholz, Gronau, Strantz, q, Elsa, Gundel.
              And the corps: Gerok, Marshall, etc.

              WERE NOT PURE PERMANENT GERMAN DIVISIONS, AND THEREFORE, HAD NO NUMBERS OF THE GERMAN ARMY.

              So I'm tired of lying already, what for you gave up on me, to convince you of something here, time to lose laughing Shouting insolent, doesn’t understand anything, doesn’t read my messages, doesn’t know the composition of the troops, confuses the generals and even the army and still fawn here, blames the bullshit)) you’re a clown
              1. Blue cop
                Blue cop 28 January 2018 08: 54
                15
                do not make laugh, two divisions do not constitute a corps, if there is no unified command and headquarters of this corps, you fool around

                2 divisions - settlement building
                In the Marshall Corps, there are 2 German divisions - the 48th Reserve and 3rd Guards Infantry + Austro-Hungarian 19th Infantry Divisions. (Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Vand 8. Sommer und Herbst 1915. Berlin, 1932. s. 592).
                The corps was part of the Southern German Army. This is evidenced by the work of Kuznetsov (cited above) and the Reichsarchive.
                Check out the source of Uncle Murzik.
                army groups of Wojrsch, von Scholz, Gronau, Strantz, q, Elsa, Gundel.
                And the corps: Herok, Marshal
                were not purely German?
                Are you sick or something? These are the names of the formations and associations of the GERMAN army. The combat schedule of the German army. Pg., Intelligence Division of the Headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armies of the Northern Front. 1917.S. 3-4.
                The army groups of Strantz, d'Els and Gundel acted like this on the French front.
                Raise your educational level uncle.
                1. Blue cop
                  Blue cop 28 January 2018 09: 04
                  15
                  WERE NOT PURE PERMANENT GERMAN DIVISIONS, AND THEREFORE, HAD NO NUMBERS OF THE GERMAN ARMY.

                  First, not units. Understand what a unit, part, connection and unification is. And secondly, if there are 3 German divisions in the consolidated corps of 2 divisions - even if he did not have a German number, but it included German formations.
                  1. barbiturate
                    barbiturate 28 January 2018 10: 10
                    +1
                    You first deal with your lies)) Well, prove to me reasonably that in the GERMAN ARMY 1914-1918 it is customary to call
                    Quote: Blue Cop
                    division, part, connection and association.

                    laughing

                    Quote: Blue Cop
                    And secondly, if there are 3 German divisions in the consolidated corps of 2 divisions - even if he did not have a German number, but it included German formations.


                    Deep thought)) and you can’t argue)) laughing Re-read that he scribbled))
                    1. Blue cop
                      Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 12
                      15
                      I scribbled - that you do not see the difference between division, part, connection and unification. That is, an ignoramus.
                      Consolidated corps - 2 German divisions, one Austrian. And the German commander. So that’s all right.
                2. barbiturate
                  barbiturate 28 January 2018 09: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  2 divisions - settlement building


                  you’ll have a settlement corps?)) don’t tell, Putin recently cut 10000 traffic cops - so in your opinion - he cut down the GAI DIVISION?)) Yes, the clown? We exist on your divisions of the traffic police?)) Although you are a blue cop, what to take from you))

                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  In the Marshall Corps, there are 2 German divisions - the 48th Reserve and 3rd Guards Infantry + Austro-Hungarian 19th Infantry Divisions. (Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Vand 8. Sommer und Herbst 1915. Berlin, 1932. s. 592).
                  The corps was part of the Southern German Army. This is evidenced by the work of Kuznetsov (cited above) and the Reichsarchive.
                  Check out the source of Uncle Murzik.


                  I already explained everything to you, blue, do not disgrace. You yourself are showing links that refute you)) In your same link, clown, it is written German for the Russian cop - Sommer und Herbst 1915 !!!!!!!! - SUMMER AND AUTUMN 1915 !!!!!!!!!! Are you kidding? You do not confuse the years 1916 and 1915 ?? and summer and autumn with spring not? In the spring of 1916?) Not?
                  I’m tired of you, I’m a tanker myself, but you’re in the tank and you’ve closed all the hatches))


                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  army groups of Wojrsch, von Scholz, Gronau, Strantz, q, Elsa, Gundel.
                  And the corps: Herok, Marshal
                  were not purely German?
                  Are you sick or something? These are the names of the formations and associations of the GERMAN army. The combat schedule of the German army. Pg., Intelligence Division of the Headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armies of the Northern Front. 1917.S. 3-4.
                  The army groups of Strantz, d'Els and Gundel acted like this on the French front.
                  Raise your educational level uncle.


                  The army groups of Wojrsch and von Scholz are mixed, you google yourself (and there were almost no Germans there) about the Marshal’s corps, I already answered you.
                  With the army groups of Strantz, Daniels and Gundel: YES, POSSIBLE they were purely GERMAN (I have found data only for the Strantz group so far), then I hurried and answered the first two mixed groups of Wojrsch and von Scholz, I admit it, BUT - Army Group by the name of the general, this is one thing, but the corps is another.
                  Here we take the Strantz group - the commander of the 5th army corps, and from this corps the Stranz Army Group was formed.
                  That is, the Army Group did not carry a number, in peacetime it did not exist, but the corps at its core - had a number.
                  In general, you need to understand each unit separately, but this is a lot of time and therefore inaccurate for all units may be inaccuracy.


                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  Raise your educational level uncle.


                  Well, yes, yes, yes, I don’t confuse the Austrian and German generals like the army and the years from the links)) For you, that Max Hoffmann, that Peter von Hoffmann - everything is the same)) That the Austrian corps, that the German. If for you any TWO divisions - CASE)) Wow. The composition of the Southern Army you do not know at all)) You confuse the year))
                  And when I stumbled upon you in your ignorance, you are silent and try to blame me !! Bravo!!))
                  1. Blue cop
                    Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 09
                    15
                    The army groups of Wojrsch and von Scholz are mixed, you google yourself (and there were almost no Germans there) about the Marshal’s corps, I already answered you.

                    And without Google it’s clear. Vojř - commander of the Silesian landver corps.
                    With the army groups of Strantz, d'Els and Gundel: YES, MAYBE they were purely GERMAN

                    Not possible, but for sure.
                    for you any TWO divisions - CASE))

                    For me, not two divisions - the corps. Unlike you, I do not call the corps and army groups - DIVISIONS.
                    It was just about the number of German divisions. 2 divisions - counting corps (1st and 37th) + Marshall corps.
                    I know the composition of the Southern Army — as Kuznetsov and other historians know it. And the Germans too. Marshall in February 1915. I led the corps as part of the Southern Army (its composition in the autumn of 1915 - 3 divisions, 2 of which were German).
                    Well, the process has begun, it is learning))
                    And this is a lot)))
                    1. Blue cop
                      Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 11
                      16
                      The army groups of Wojrsch and Scholz are GERMAN. They were incidentally on the northern section of the Russian Front, and not in Galicia.
                      The combat schedule of the German army. Pg., Intelligence Division of the Headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armies of the Northern Front. 1917.S. 3-4.
                      Sommer und Herbst 1915 !!!!!!!! - SUMMER AND AUTUMN 1915 !!!!!!!!

                      So what - the connection was valid in the year 16
                    2. barbiturate
                      barbiturate 28 January 2018 10: 30
                      +1
                      Quote: Blue Cop
                      And without Google it’s clear. Vojř - commander of the Silesian landver corps.


                      Yes?)) Duck, did you write about the "Vojrs Army Group"?

                      "In June-July 1916, the position of the Vojrs army group (three Austro-Hungarian and one German corps) took the main blow of the Russian Western Front during the Baranavichy operation. The Vojrs troops retained their positions and caused great damage to the enemy."

                      Or are we already jumping from the Brusilovsky breakthrough to other years? Maybe then we still recall the lieutenant years of Voyrs? laughing

                      Quote: Blue Cop
                      For me, not two divisions - the corps. Unlike you, I do not call the corps and army groups - DIVISIONS.


                      Quote: Blue Cop
                      So 2 divisions = corps.


                      You yourself spoke about the corps, but now it’s not the corps)) That's right, you, unlike me, don’t call them at all, because you don’t know the composition for the period under review, you confuse the commanders, years and belonging to the state, that the Germans and the Austrians are one how can you call them something ?? laughing laughing

                      Quote: Blue Cop
                      It was just about the number of German divisions. 2 divisions - counting corps (1st and 37th) + Marshall corps.
                      I know the composition of the Southern Army — as Kuznetsov and other historians know it. And the Germans too. Marshall in February 1915. I led the corps as part of the Southern Army (its composition in the autumn of 1915 - 3 divisions, 2 of which were German).

                      There were NO ACCOUNT buildings, as well as the Marshall German Corps and the Hoffman German Corps, why did I make up the AUTUMN 1915 ?? Do you know that General Marshall was generally transferred to the Western Front in April 1916? The commander of the Guard Reserve Corps (the Guard Reserve did not have a number).


                      Quote: Blue Cop
                      Well, the process has begun, it is learning))
                      And this is a lot)))


                      I’m learning, it’s you stuck))
                      1. Blue cop
                        Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 38
                        16
                        army groups of Wojrsch, von Scholz, Gronau, Strantz, q, Elsa, Gundel.
                        And the corps: Gerok, Marshall, etc.
                        WERE NOT PURE PERMANENT GERMAN DIVISIONS, AND THEREFORE, HAD NO NUMBERS OF THE GERMAN ARMY.

                        Who called the groups and corps divisions - am I?
                        There were NO ACCOUNT buildings, as well as the MARSHAL GERMAN HOUSING and the Hoffman GERMAN HOUSING

                        It is clear that it was not. But 2 brigades are considered as a division, and 2 divisions as a corps. This is just what is important - when there is a mix and summary connections and unions.
                        But we find out the number of divisions and not corps? The composition of the division is constant, but the corps is not. Just look at the Russian corps.
                        The marshal was transferred - and his corps remained part of the Southern Army (Kuznetsov. M., 1941., Reichsarchive).
                        In any case, the fact that in the GERMAN Southern Army was already at the beginning of the Brusilovsky breakthrough was several German divisions - you will not be able to murzik.
  16. barbiturate
    barbiturate 28 January 2018 10: 39
    +1
    Quote: Blue Cop
    The army groups of Wojrsch and Scholz are GERMAN. They were incidentally on the northern section of the Russian Front, and not in Galicia.
    The combat schedule of the German army. Pg., Intelligence Division of the Headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armies of the Northern Front. 1917.S. 3-4.
    Sommer und Herbst 1915 !!!!!!!! - SUMMER AND AUTUMN 1915 !!!!!!!!
    So what - the connection was valid in the year 16


    In short, I understood you - I turned on a stupid one, enough time to spend on you.
    That he says about 1915, now generally about 1917, then the return to 1916)) So you can rub here indefinitely, but do I need it?))
    There is a Brusilovsky breakthrough, it was discussed - the composition of the Vojrs Army Group for the events under consideration

    "At the end of June 1916, group B. (XXV reserve, III and KHP Austro-Hungarian corps, III german landwehr corps; in total about 82 battalions and 248 guns) was located against the 4th Russian army of the Western Front (Baranavichy district), where it was planned to deliver the main blow to the Russian front. Successful actions thwarted an attempt to break through the front, retaining positions and inflicting great damage to the enemy. "

    So go to the forest, now he already has 1917, you drop the roster to him - again GERMAN laughing
    You drank there, well, you only have to spend time, GOODBYE, LOVER OF MYTHICAL PREVENTIONS AND BREAKTHROUGHS OF GERMAN FORCES hi

    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 44
      16
      To summarize:
      We found out that at the beginning of the Brusilovsky breakthrough there were at least 4 German divisions in the composition of the Southern German Army: 1st, 37th, and 3rd Guards. and 48th standby. They met the 11th and (partially) 7th Army of the SWF. And then massed German transfers went.
      Somehow
    2. Blue cop
      Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 48
      16
      The combat schedule of the German army. Pg., Intelligence Division of the Headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armies of the Northern Front. 1917.

      This is a source in which German troops on the Russian front are indicated at the beginning of another campaign. I brought it to you as an illustration that there were NAME formations and associations in the German army.
      And according to the Brusilovsky breakthrough, the defeats of the German troops were not mythical. So say the sources and apologists of Soviet military-historical science. Severe trials awaited the southern German army.
  17. barbiturate
    barbiturate 28 January 2018 10: 43
    +1
    Quote: Blue Cop
    In any case, the fact that in the GERMAN Southern Army was already at the beginning of the Brusilovsky breakthrough was several German divisions - you will not be able to murzik.


    PS
    It’s not funny to myself?)) I didn’t try to deny it, the Southern Army included TWO GERMAN DIVISIONS, a breakthrough in this sector did not work out - that’s all.
    So stop flogging nonsense, it hurts))
    bye blue, write escho laughing
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 49
      16
      No, 4 (at least):
      1st, 37th and 3rd Guards. and 48th reserve
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 52
        16
        Here is an excerpt from the combat path of the 48th rd
    2. Blue cop
      Blue cop 28 January 2018 10: 54
      16
      a breakthrough in this area did not work out - that’s all.
      So stop flogging nonsense, it hurts))
      bye blue, write escho

      Everything worked out
      If anything, I’ll write.
      Go barbiturate breadcrumbs
      1. Gopnik
        Gopnik 28 January 2018 14: 43
        +1
        I am sincerely struck by your patience and composure. Taking off my hat.
        1. Blue cop
          Blue cop 28 January 2018 16: 27
          15
          Thank you!
          And as for the shooters - as far as I know, when rifle brigades (1-8) were deployed in the division - then the standard 4-battalion squad appeared. In the years 1915-1916.
          A. Denikin writes that the 4th Iron Rifle Brigade led by him was deployed to the division in 1915.
  18. Gopnik
    Gopnik 28 January 2018 14: 45
    +1
    Thank you very much, very interesting. I note for myself, it turns out that the 1916 campaign brought the rifle regiments to 4 battalions. As we know, they entered the war as part of 2, in 1915 it was supposed to be 3 according to the states, and in 1916 already 4, i.e. switched to the usual infantry staff. I wonder how widespread it was.
  19. barbiturate
    barbiturate 28 January 2018 16: 51
    +1
    Quote: Blue Cop
    To summarize:
    We found out that at the beginning of the Brusilovsky breakthrough there were at least 4 German divisions in the composition of the Southern German Army: 1st, 37th, and 3rd Guards. and 48th standby. They met the 11th and (partially) 7th Army of the SWF. And then massed German transfers went.
    Somehow


    Well, let's get down to specifics and summarize. Hoffmann Task Force - listed as Austrian? YES! And it was never considered a GERMAN HOUSING !! Do you admit it? laughing It was listed as Austrian and most of its composition was Austrian, BUT it included the 1st German division.
    We deal with the 1st German division
    There is information on it and here DISCOVERY awaits us !! It turns out that the 1st German division was still in the BEGINNING of MARCH 1916 and was transferred to the WESTERN FRONT and on April 20 attacked Verdun !!
    So it turns out that in the Hoffmann Task Force there are no Germans at all? It turns out like this yes

    Now another German division of the Southern German Army is the 37th, although the same Oskin speaks of the 39th division, are we looking at both?
    37th stayed almost all of 1916 in Latvia, near Daugavpils and could not hold the defense as part of the Southern Army - IT LOSES.
    The 39th, as in 1914, fell on the Western Front, so it fought there and, like the 1st Division, it “thundered” near Verdun in 1916 laughing

    According to my data, there were NO MORE GERMAN Divisions or any other GERMAN divisions as part of the EXACTLY SOUTH German Army - THERE WAS NOT !! So where are the Germans in the Southern Army? laughing

    Further, you mention the 3rd Guard Reserve and the 48th Reserve, perhaps they were, although I did NOT MEET them anywhere in the COMPOSITION of the Southern Army. REPEAT !!! We are disassembling the year 1916 and by time the BRUSILOVSK BREAKTHROUGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT WRITE ABOUT 1915th or 1917th year !!

    Watching the 3rd Guard Reserve
    A wonderful division, very combat-ready and the Germans praise it very much, it managed to fight in the West quite a bit and was already thrown to the East at the end of August 1914, and then we are STUNNED again !!!
    It turns out that the 3rd Guards Reserve Division already in mid-April 1916 was transferred to CHAMPAGNE, WEST !! Positional battles and then the Somme !! She never dreamed of any Brusilovsky breakthrough, she had enough of her problems on the Somme) laughing

    We look at the 48th reserve
    Well, at least everything is clean here - held the defense during the Brusilovsky breakthrough, ONE DIVISION REALLY WAS laughing laughing

    Something GERMAN TROOPS WELL VERY LITTLE FOR CHECK
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 28 January 2018 17: 21
      15
      Are you even Etuziast Oskin Wrong? laughing
      The composition of the German Southern Army at the beginning of September 1916 (Reichsarchive, T.11, S. 370.) consisted of 7 German (119, 199, 208, 216 divisions, 1 and 49 res. Div., 3 guards div.) , 2 Turkish (19 and 29) and 5 Austrian.
      It is clear that in many respects this is the result of the Germans moving to the Southwest Front.
      And in May 1916. - find out, find. Don’t worry, we’ll deal with this issue)) Maybe there’s a confusion with the numbers - but one (!) German division in the Southern Army, you know, could not be. Starting from the Carpathian operation, the Germans pumped it up with troops, even though they were moving back and forth constantly. By the way, the 3rd Guards was WAS a part of the Southern Army in 1915 (Reichsarhiv T.T. 8-9) and it was there in September 1916 (Reichsarhiv T. 11).
      Specify wink
      1. barbiturate
        barbiturate 28 January 2018 18: 10
        +1
        Quote: Blue Cop
        Are you even Etuziast Oskin Wrong?

        Now I’m re-reading it, maybe I didn’t see it and didn’t understand it.

        Subsequently, the Germans transferred many divisions, the situation changed rapidly and as soon as the Germans approached, success quickly ended, unfortunately.
        So far, the Germans are not particularly visible, and even more so, the breakthrough of the front is not visible on the site defended by a purely German division.
        It will be necessary to understand in more detail, although the time is short and for work tomorrow)
        1. Blue cop
          Blue cop 28 January 2018 18: 18
          15
          You perfectly understand that not everything is so simple.
          The division is clearly not alone.
          Russian and German positions broke through - and in 16, and in 17 years. In the latter case, it is even more disappointing that the infantry refused to develop tactical breakthroughs. The Russian army gradually studied positional warfare - after all, no one was preparing for it. And our equipment was not like that of the Germans.
          In maneuverability, everything was easier - this has been studied since peacetime: Gumbinnen, Radom, Warsaw, Prasnysh, Zhuravno. This is the victory of Russian weapons over the Germans - and far from mythical)
          Pack up don't distract
          1. barbiturate
            barbiturate 28 January 2018 20: 52
            +1
            Quote: Blue Cop
            You perfectly understand that not everything is so simple.
            The division is clearly not alone.


            Yes, everything is really ambiguous, we have to deal with the same German divisions ourselves yes
            And yet, for me it is very likely that the Germans were not at all on the defensive during the breakthrough of Brusilov yes The Germans simply did not expect that their allies in fortified positions would manage so quickly and on a large scale, the divisions had to be hurriedly thrown back, again the 3rd Guards example.
            Or the 48th German division, for example about it.
            "By May 30, Russian troops suspended their impulse due to a successful counterattack hastily transferred to the direction of the breakthrough of the 48th German infantry division along the right flank of the 16th Army Corps of General S. S. Savich."
            “So, with strong counterattacks carried out by the German units, the enemy prompted the 7th commander Gen. D. G. Shcherbachev to stop the rush of troops. As you can see, in all the front armies, as well as in the front headquarters, the commanders were afraid of the power of the German attacks, famous for flanking maneuvers . Therefore, the Russian military leaders hindered the successfully developing offensive, tightening reserves and rear, and at the same time taking a united front, known as the “wall of the corps.” Nevertheless, up to June 4, that is, ten days of the offensive, the 7th Army took about forty thousand people were captured, and forty-one guns, twenty-five mortars and one hundred and eighty machine guns were captured. "

            So, here is ONE CERTAINLY INSTALLED GERMAN DIVISION and that, as you can understand from the text, is not completely defeated during the breakthrough and does not seem to sit at all somewhere on the defensive, is thrown from somewhere and immediately SUCCESSFULLY counterattacked.

            Somehow, all this coincides with the recollections of Brusilov and other military men who persistently recall ONLY ABOUT the Austrian prisoners, trophies and breakthroughs of the AUSTRIAN positions, but do not say ANYWHERE - they say they broke through the GERMAN POSITIONS, took the GERMAN prisoners, trophies ...

            Quote: Blue Cop
            In maneuverability, everything was easier - this has been studied since peacetime: Gumbinnen, Radom, Warsaw, Prasnysh, Zhuravno. This is the victory of Russian weapons over the Germans - and far from mythical)


            There have indeed been victories more than once, but these are tactical victories, ordinary military swings in most cases.
            I agree with Gumbinen, Warsaw is already very controversial (if we are talking about the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation), I would add Ivangorod’s defense to this list, they defended very well, there was a great commander, Aleksey Vladimirovich von Schwartz, and pressed the Austrians and Germans.
            More, against the Germans, by and large, there is nothing to remember.
            1. Blue cop
              Blue cop 28 January 2018 21: 02
              15
              How is it nothing?
              Well I wrote - Radom, the defeat of the German guard during the Warsaw-Ivangorod operation. First Augustus - defeat of the 8th army in East Prussia.
              Second Prasnysh - 2 German corps almost destroyed
              Crane - a heavy defeat of the Southern Army. By the way, the 3rd Guards Division suffered greatly.
              And during the Offensive of 1916 - the very same Kiselin, about which there was a discussion in the article about broken steel.
              However, I really hope that the author of this article will stop not only on the little-known operations of the WWII, but also on the moments of the Russian-German confrontation itself.
              1. barbiturate
                barbiturate 29 January 2018 03: 43
                +1
                You describe some local lesions, of a local scale, but in many ways you simply lie or distort)) Is there any point in arguing with you?
                Consider further the Gumbinen and the defeat of the two best RIA personnel armies as one of the German reservists - equal. Etc.
                But I already understood you, balabol what you want.
            2. Blue cop
              Blue cop 28 January 2018 22: 47
              15
              I want to ask you a barbiturate, a great historian from a small house.
              As a specialist in PR technologies.
              You did not think that some of the tolerances in our correspondence above were made by me on purpose? Mixes, inaccuracies, refinements.
              Maybe this is done so that you unbelted and show off a little, eh?)
              I have long wanted to establish the person of Uncle Murzik (Murrow). I think that the question is closed))
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Blue cop
                Blue cop 29 January 2018 05: 44
                16
                Two-thirds of the 8th German army consisted of personnel troops and one was stronger than each of the Russian armies taken separately. And her 1st and 17th AKs are the best in the German army. Although you have the same thing on the forehead, on the forehead, you hear the same thing, hearing only yourself. And you say to the macha - God's dew.
                Explaining something to you is a waste of time uncle.
                Good luck in combat and political
  20. barbiturate
    barbiturate 29 January 2018 03: 56
    +1
    And yes, you can’t fawn and don’t scribble an answer)) I understand you and your level of knowledge and I won’t come to this topic anymore. I DO NOT SEE YOUR ANSWER; historical))
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 29 January 2018 05: 38
      16
      You describe some local lesions, of local scale, and in many ways you’re just lying or distorting))

      And I understood your level a long time ago
      I won’t write to you at all. In FIG I need you - a host of stamps.
      As if all on this. We understood each other.
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 29 January 2018 06: 05
        16
        And do not talk about the level to someone who does not know when the Bronze Age was)
  21. barbiturate
    barbiturate 29 January 2018 14: 15
    +1
    Quote: Blue Cop
    Two-thirds of the 8th German army consisted of personnel troops and one was stronger than each of the Russian armies taken separately. And her 1st and 17th AKs are the best in the German army. Although you have the same thing on the forehead, on the forehead, you hear the same thing, hearing only yourself. And you say to the macha - God's dew.
    Explaining something to you is a waste of time uncle.
    Good luck in combat and political


    Since the moderators have deleted my last message, I will supplement my last message.
    I know how to admit my mistakes or inaccuracies, but you don’t and I wrote to you about your mistakes, they are obvious.

    And now, I admit that the 8th German army was, of course, not all of the reservists, and included in its composition, including 3 PERSONNEL ARMY CASES - 1 AK, 17 AK and 20 AK. I wrote the answer in the morning, before work, in response to your rude and ridiculous statements full of mystery, you think that you are very smart, huh?)) Therefore, of course, ALL 8th army did not consist of reservists. The fact that the 1st and 17th AKs are the best in the German army, I have not seen such statements from the Germans in literature. And here is the OTHER German formations and units (if the word of the unit so disturbs the poor fellow laughing ) were reserve, landverny and landstormny formations.
    After counting all the forces and means, we get such a picture. Compare the 8th German Army ONLY !! with Samsonov’s second army.

    8-th Army

    163 battalions;
    364 machine guns;
    74 squadron;
    576 light guns;
    192 howitzers.
    62 aircraft and 1 airship.


    2nd army of Samosonov
    132 battalions;
    324 machine guns;
    88 squadron;
    476 light guns;
    72 howitzers;
    24 aircraft

    The Germans had some advantage in the total number of light guns and machine guns, and overwhelming superiority in howitzers and aircraft.
    In the infantry (due to a larger number of companies) and cavalry, we had some advantage over the Germans.

    So I agree with the researchers of this question:

    "The decisive role was played not by the number of troops, guns and machine guns, but by the ABILITY to use them, the training and stamina of the troops, their ability and willingness to Pursue a flinching enemy, to bring the success of an individual battle to victory in the battle.
    In these qualities, alas, the German army surpassed its Russian adversary in East Prussia.

    We talked about the troops actually participating in combat operations.

    Now about unused reserves.
    The Germans had almost none. They managed to fist and direct everything that could be sent to the battlefield: from landver and land-assault units (which the Russian generals initially did not consider at all to be combat-ready troops), to artillery and machine guns removed from the rear fortresses and thrown into battle.
    Even exotic units such as ersatz-reserve cavalry and artillery appeared
    and ersatz machine-gun companies.
    Almost the entire German guard was then on the Western Front. In the East, everything that could and remained unused by the Germans fought.

    But the Russian command reacted to the concentration of its huge forces with startling thoughtlessness and irresponsibility. "

    But this is so, I don’t need 100 more posts and holivars, but Brusilov broke through the defense of which GERMAN divisions, you never found - they didn’t seem to be at all, although I’m looking for it myself and am interested.
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 29 January 2018 15: 26
      16
      About the composition
      There was an article on VO https://topwar.ru/123931-reshayuschaya-bitva-perv
      oy-mirovoy-vostochno-prusskaya-operaciya-1914-god
      ao-sootnoshenii-sil.html
      Based on German data.
      The 8th army consisted of 203 battalions (and 95 squadrons) and 1128 guns, and the first-line troops (field and reserve) made up almost 2/3 of its composition (that is, the myth that the army consisted of second-line - entirely “landver” - troops are untenable). In total - 16 infantry and equal divisions, or 200000 people.
      The 1st and 17th army corps in training and fighting spirit were considered one of the best in the Kaiser army [Andreev V. The first Russian march - maneuver in the Great War - Gumbinen and Marna. Paris, 1928. S. 28].
      Before the First Battle of the Masurian Lakes, which began on August 25, the army was significantly strengthened by troops deployed from the French Front.
      In their composition:
      Guards Reserve Corps (GRK) (3-I Guards Infantry and 1-I Guards Reserve Division (GD)) - 28 battalions and 28 batteries (160 guns);
      11 Army Corps (22-I and 38-I PD) - 24 battalion, 30 batteries (168 guns);
      8 Cavalry Division - 24 squadron and 3 batteries (12 guns).
      The 8 Army has increased by more than a quarter of the original force (over the 50000 bayonets) - at the expense of excellent first-line troops.

      And as for the German divisions in the Brusilovsky breakthrough - as I said I will find, you will see the first))
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 29 January 2018 15: 38
        16
        I forgot to compare with the Russians.
        If the 8th army - up to 200000 people and 1128 guns, then the Russians - the 1st (Neman) army included:
        6,5 infantry and 5,5 cavalry divisions: up to 100000 people, 402 guns, and the 2nd Army (Narevskaya): 12 infantry, 3 cavalry divisions - 150000 people, 702 guns.
        That is, the German army was stronger than the Russians separately, on which they built their maneuver. Uncle Murzik threw the figures, but you just take it by the throat - you traditionally have no source base.
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 29 January 2018 16: 58
          +2
          Is that Murzik in a new hypostasis ???
          1. Blue cop
            Blue cop 29 January 2018 17: 01
            15
            That is yes. As it turns out, a fairly familiar person.
            1. barbiturate
              barbiturate 29 January 2018 17: 45
              +1
              Eh, it’s a pity the clown and he was being bullied that you can’t personally argue, with numbers in hands and books in hands, an Internet laughing People immediately grow wiser and stop being rude when they realize that their muzzle is nearby))

              Quote: Blue Cop
              The 8th army consisted of 203 battalions (and 95 squadrons) and 1128 guns, and the first-line troops (field and reserve) made up almost 2/3 of its composition (that is, the myth that the army consisted of second-line - entirely “landver” - troops are untenable). In total - 16 infantry and equal divisions, or 200000 people.


              You are lying, you bring the wrong numbers, you don’t understand what you are talking about))
              The numbers and comparisons I have given you are faithful. For the 8th Army, in general, the official historiographer of the 8th German Army, Theobald Schäfer. So graze, clowns. Lie to people further))
              Tell tales further that the Germans turned out to be the number of Russians crushed and stopped the “Russian steam skating rink” ONE !! army, and not because the Russian armies were advancing in different directions, and the second army also had separate corps spread))
              Samsonov’s 2nd Army was destroyed without any reinforcements from the Western Front and was not even asked.
              So the clown is illiterate, it's time to really end or to meet in person and talk and poke your nose into documents, and not drum on the keyboard for an hour.

              Hello to you and shit laughing Storytellers - something always disturbs a bad dancer. This is about the royal commanders and administrators laughing
              1. Blue cop
                Blue cop 29 January 2018 17: 51
                15
                You are lying.
                Chatterbox .
                Reichsarchive - a source for the German army.
                Collection of documents of the General Staff of the Red Army. - by NWF.
                So the clown is illiterate, it's time to really end or to meet in person and talk and poke your nose into documents, and not drum on the keyboard for an hour.

                So it's you illiterate clown
                Let's meet. When and where?
                1. barbiturate
                  barbiturate 29 January 2018 19: 17
                  +1
                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  You are lying.
                  Chatterbox .
                  Reichsarchive - a source for the German army.
                  Collection of documents of the General Staff of the Red Army. - by NWF.


                  So what do you, clown, give references to the number of people not on the Reichsarchive or documents of the Red Army, but on an article in topwar?
                  So you mentioned SOVIET HISTORIANS, EVSEYEV for example, that’s how he refers to THEOBALD SHAFER - OFFICIAL HISTORIOGRAPH of the 8th German Army
                  here's a link for you, enlighten
                  http://www.grwar.ru/library/Evseev-August/EA_120.
                  html
                  indicated there

                  TOTAL in the 8th German Army, there were:
                  183 battalions;
                  418 machine guns;
                  84 squadron;
                  624 light guns
                  464 howitzers and
                  62 aircraft and 1 airship.

                  But, if we subtract from this number the forces that DO NOT take part in the battles with the corps of the 2nd Russian Army (and these are the garrisons of the Koenigsberg, Letzen fortresses, Stage Inspection), then their number will decrease to:

                  163 battalions;
                  364 machine guns;
                  74 squadrons;
                  576 light guns;
                  192 howitzers.
                  (Sometimes, when calculating the total number of German howitzers participating in those battles, in order to get a more "solid" figure, they add to them more than 200 fortifications of Koenigsberg, which were not involved in operations against the 2nd Russian Army)

                  All data on the combat composition of the German troops were taken based on the calculations of the official historiographer of the 8th German Army Theobald Schäfer.


                  So, will we continue to lie?

                  Well, you can meet in OMSK, where and when, in PM
                  1. Blue cop
                    Blue cop 29 January 2018 19: 27
                    15
                    barbiturate Today, 19:17 ↑
                    So what do you, clown, give references to the number of people not on the Reichsarchive or documents of the Red Army, but on an article in topwar?

                    laughing
                    So in an article in topwar - and there are links to the Reichsarchive and the Collection of documents. You along the way - pretend to be a fool or kidding.
                    So you mentioned SOVIET HISTORIANS, EVSEYEV for example, that’s how he refers to THEOBALD SHAFER - OFFICIAL HISTORIOGRAPH of the 8th German Army
                    here's a link for you, enlighten
                    http://www.grwar.ru/library/Evseev-August/EA_120.
                    html
                    indicated there
                    TOTAL in the 8th German Army, there were:
                    183 battalions

                    Hello, so the man gave you a link below Evseev
                    PRESENT
                    Evseev N. August battle of the 2nd Russian army in East Prussia (Tannenberg) in 1914, Moscow, 1936. P. 26. The composition of the 8th army: 192 battalions, 95 squadrons, 1131 guns.
                    So check what is written on this page - 192 battalions, not 163. Brehunishka.
                    In general, I look forward to meeting
                    He himself said - see you, we won’t talk here
              2. Blue cop
                Blue cop 29 January 2018 17: 55
                15
                The armies were defeated in QUEUE for a number of reasons, including the balance of power.
                So write - how to find you, where and at what time we will meet. Otherwise, you yap, taking on a cannon that is not able to indicate even a page as a link.
                1. barbiturate
                  barbiturate 29 January 2018 19: 09
                  +1
                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  The armies were defeated in QUEUE for a number of reasons, including the balance of power.


                  Uhaha "for a number of reasons" - and these reasons I have repeatedly called for you - EXCELLENCE IN CONTROL OF MILITIES, ARTILLERY, AIRCRAFT, MANEUVER, COMMUNICATION, etc. There were no advantages in the number of personnel in the 2nd Army.

                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  So write - how to find you, where and at what time we will meet. Otherwise, you yap, taking on a cannon that is not able to indicate even a page as a link.


                  I live in the city of Omsk, where are you? what time - also just agree yes
                  The link will be higher, just so many posts you scribble, clown, that it is not clear which one to answer first))
                  1. Blue cop
                    Blue cop 29 January 2018 19: 14
                    15
                    Benefits were
                    Ok clown see you
                    Write phone
                    We will agree
                    1. Blue cop
                      Blue cop 29 January 2018 19: 21
                      15
                      In Omsk...
                      How tired of my Penza PR games, darkness.
                      Clinic.
                      Write your phone or vibe or skype data. Phoned, knock, see you. Feel free here - write in a personal. You say it right - only live. So we stop the chatter here and I'm waiting for your Old
              3. Blue cop
                Blue cop 29 January 2018 17: 58
                15
                it’s a pity the clown and he was sucked up that it’s impossible to personally argue, with numbers in his hands and books in his hands

                Of course it’s a pity, because all you can do is troll and drum on the keyboard.
                1. kipage
                  kipage 29 January 2018 18: 24
                  15
                  Totally agree with you.
                  An illiterate miracle of judo crawled out - and due to rudeness, impudence and aplomb, it gets into your eyes without bringing anything.
                  I've rummaged in the literature and the data of the Reichsarchive and the Collection of documents of the General Staff of the RCA are confirmed by the solid work of specialists.
                  So:
                  Wacetis I. I. Operations on the eastern border of Germany in 1914. Part 1. East Prussian operation. M.: State Publishing House, 1929. S. 20. The 8th Army has 196 battalions (and not 163 as this barbiturate wrote), 89 squadrons (i.e., about 200 thousand people) and 1044 guns (excluding those who approached immediately after the commencement of the operation of connections - for example, the 1st Landver Division).
                  Evseev N. August battle of the 2nd Russian army in East Prussia (Tannenberg) in 1914, Moscow, 1936. P. 26. The composition of the 8th army: 192 battalions, 95 squadrons, 1131 guns.
                  The data is almost the same.
                  1. barbiturate
                    barbiturate 29 January 2018 19: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: squeeze
                    An illiterate miracle of judo crawled out - and due to rudeness, impudence and aplomb, it gets into your eyes without bringing anything.


                    Oh, literally got out))
                    Quote: squeeze
                    So:
                    Wacetis I. I. Operations on the eastern border of Germany in 1914. Part 1. East Prussian operation. M.: State Publishing House, 1929. S. 20. The 8th Army has 196 battalions (and not 163 as this barbiturate wrote), 89 squadrons (i.e., about 200 thousand people) and 1044 guns (excluding those who approached immediately after the commencement of the operation of connections - for example, the 1st Landver Division).
                    Evseev N. August battle of the 2nd Russian army in East Prussia (Tannenberg) in 1914, Moscow, 1936. P. 26. The composition of the 8th army: 192 battalions, 95 squadrons, 1131 guns.
                    The data is almost the same.


                    Above, I have already provided a link to my data, ONLY COUNTING THOSE PARTS THAT REALLY WERE INVOLVED IN THE BATTLE ACTIONS, AND NOT THE SECURITY FORCES AND GUNS !!!
                    But you don’t understand this)) that any digital signature needs to be critically analyzed
                    1. kipage
                      kipage 29 January 2018 19: 32
                      15
                      Everything is counted there
                      Eyes open
                      And it is said that almost a quarter of the NWF armies were also distracted from the front and remained in the rear.
                      The common feature of both armies was that the non-successive divisions did not arrive at the start of the operation. A number of units, being concentrated in Poland, then entered the 9 Army. There was no time for the offensive and a significant part of the second-rate Cossack regiments (military cavalry).

                      The heavy artillery brigade did not have time for the 1st Army. Since part of the field troops was left for internal service, and the Cossack regiments of cavalry divisions served as a temporary replacement for the cavalry cavalry (spraying between infantry formations and units), in fact, the 1st Army had only 96 battalions and 106 squadrons and hundreds (this is the Red Army Document Collection )
                      The actual composition of the 2nd Army at the beginning of the operation was 158 battalions, 72 squadrons, 626 guns. During the operation, the composition was reduced (8 battalions of the 3rd GVPD and 6 battalions of the 1st brigade arrived, but the 2nd AK left for the 1st Army) to 140 battalions with 506 guns.
                      The Russians left field troops in the rear garrisons (the second-priority divisions assigned for these purposes were in the process of deployment, and parts of the primary troops were allocated before their arrival). This distracted approximately 2,5 infantry divisions. AN ENEMY WITHDRAW the second-line and serf troops IN THE FIELD.
                      So do not distort
                      1. kipage
                        kipage 29 January 2018 19: 33
                        15
                        I'm not a blue cop
                        I’m not going to talk with someone who is a swindler.
                        See these pages.
                        Rest, Penza
            2. Gopnik
              Gopnik 30 January 2018 00: 50
              +2
              Well then, I sympathize with your endurance. I, too, somehow, through carelessness and inattention, stepped on the discussion at Murzik, then I got tired of rubbing myself on the grass. Zero arguments, but a lot of emoticons and stupidity. Stop this business.
  22. barbiturate
    barbiturate 29 January 2018 19: 32
    +1
    That’s why I pointed

    "So, TOTAL 2nd Russian Army of General Samsonov consisted of:
    132 battalions;
    324 machine guns;
    88 squadrons;
    476 light guns;
    72 howitzers;
    24 aircraft.

    The link is the same to your Evseev, SOVIET HISTORY !!

    As you can see, the Germans had some advantage in the total number of light guns and machine guns, and overwhelming superiority in howitzers and aircraft.
    In the infantry (due to a larger number of companies) and cavalry, we had some advantage over the enemy.

    The decisive role was played not by the number of troops, guns and machine guns, but by the ABILITY to use them, the training and endurance of the troops, their ability and willingness to Pursue a flinching enemy, to bring the success of an individual battle to victory in the battle.
    In these qualities, alas, the German army surpassed its Russian adversary in East Prussia.

    We talked about the troops actually participating in combat operations.

    Now about unused reserves.
    The Germans had almost none. They managed to fist and direct everything that could be sent to the battlefield: from landver and land-assault units (which the Russian generals initially did not consider at all to be combat-ready troops), to artillery and machine guns removed from the rear fortresses and thrown into battle.
    Even exotic units such as ersatz-reserve cavalry and artillery appeared
    and ersatz machine-gun companies.
    Almost the entire German guard was then on the Western Front. In the East, everything that could and remained unused by the Germans fought.

    But the Russian command reacted to the concentration of its huge forces with startling thoughtlessness and irresponsibility.

    Oh well, stop arguing here, and then the number of clowns is growing steadily and soon they will simply overwhelm me with corpses, like our Germans in East Prussia laughing

    I am waiting for offers in PM, if you can drive to Omsk)) And you can come from Omsk
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 29 January 2018 19: 36
      15
      You didn’t see Evseev’s book in the eyes, talker))
      So will you write me a vibe or skype number?
      1. Blue cop
        Blue cop 29 January 2018 19: 37
        15
        I wrote in a personal and am waiting for an answer)
        1. barbiturate
          barbiturate 30 January 2018 03: 55
          +1
          Quote: Blue Cop
          I wrote in a personal and am waiting for an answer)

          Answered in PM
  23. barbiturate
    barbiturate 30 January 2018 03: 49
    +1
    Quote: squeeze
    The actual composition of the 2nd Army at the beginning of the operation was 158 battalions, 72 squadrons, 626 guns. During the operation, the composition was reduced (8 battalions of the 3rd GVPD and 6 battalions of the 1st brigade arrived, but the 2nd AK left for the 1st Army) to 140 battalions with 506 guns.
    The Russians left field troops in the rear garrisons (the second-priority divisions assigned for these purposes were in the process of deployment, and parts of the primary troops were allocated before their arrival). This distracted approximately 2,5 infantry divisions. AN ENEMY WITHDRAW the second-line and serf troops IN THE FIELD.


    You’re ridiculous, I’m telling you about this, you and clowns are here !!!!!))

    From your own words it follows that the Germans had no advantage in people !! THE GERMANS ARE MUCH GUILTY THAT THE SAMSONOV SPRAYED THE TROOPS ??? THIS IS THE ABILITY AND CONTROL OF THE MILITARY SERVICE !!!
    If Samsonov still has a couple of three buildings, so what? If you do not know how to manage troops?
    I wrote in my posts that the Germans brought almost disabled teams into the field, and our two armies, instead of JOINT ACTION, went somewhere, and even the 2nd Army itself scattered its forces, so who is to blame for letting them beat yourself in parts ?? Intelligent Intelligence Zero, Intelligent Troops Command - zero. As a result - a disaster in East Prussia of both armies, as a result of 7 German armies in the West, one !! German in the East - the result is known) That's how they controlled our troops.
    What is the use of your TWO QUEENS IF YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO PLAY CHESS?

    Everything is free
    1. Blue cop
      Blue cop 30 January 2018 05: 56
      15
      I saw - a phone that I can’t take))
      I’ll call you.
      [quote] [From your own words it follows that the Germans did not have any advantage in people! / quote]
      Both armies had a common advantage, but the Germans prevailed over each separately - and therefore smashed them in parts. It's hard for you to get it. But rather - just play, that is, you’re kidding me.
      You, too, are free - to communication, twisted- "slow-witted"
      1. barbiturate
        barbiturate 30 January 2018 15: 24
        +1
        Quote: Blue Cop
        both armies had a common advantage, but the Germans prevailed over each separately - and therefore smashed them in parts. It's hard for you to get it. But rather - just play, that is, you’re kidding me.
        You, too, are free - to communication, twisted- "slow-witted"


        You’re a rare slow-witted one)) Our second army had no less people, we were technically inferior to the command, intelligence, and communications. So how can you give 100 divisions, you squander 90 and yell that you had fewer people - that is, lie)) And the main principle of the strategy is concentration of forces in the right section? No, you don’t know him) But the Germans knew and used it, coupled with technical superiority.
        What tactics do you want to explain)) Brusilov broke through the Austrian front simply because the Austrians were LESS than the Russians, is this your competent explanation?
        Less and that’s why they broke through)) Whoever gave birth to more soldiers won))
        In short, now it’s for sure - you’re tired of me, crooked head, well, you
        1. Blue cop
          Blue cop 30 January 2018 16: 21
          16
          No, slow-witted.
          In one of our army - 100 thousand, and in the second - 150 thousand.
          Yes, the two of them are stronger than the German, in which 200 thousand
          But individually, it is stronger than them than the Germans used - inflicting defeats on them in turn. After all, they interacted a bit cheerfully, or rather did not interact at all.
          For the composition of the Russian armies, see the Collection of documents of the world imperialist war on the Russian Front (1914-1917). East Prussian operation. - General Staff of the Red Army. M .: Military Publishing, 1939.S. 12.
          It says that there were 8 battalions in the German 199th army of one infantry. And it is written - how many troops from the Russian 1st and 2nd armies did not participate in the operation.
          It is said on this page that in BOTH Russian armies there were 254 battalions, and in ONE 8th German army - 199. That is, it was stronger than EVERY OF the armies taken by the NWF SEPARATELY.
          No, but maybe the specialists of the General Staff of the Red Army, who had access to primary DOCUMENTS and other information, are dumber than some ignoramus-barbiturate laughing
          This is the source, uncle - all your books next to him - pah)
          And most of all I liked (wrote above) about the "swing". There were no victories, and the war was a “swing”, back and forth.
          But the whole war is a swing. They either took Galicia, then lost it, then again they returned a part. And what kind of swing were on the French front)
          Okay, we’ve agreed to stop talking here - wait for my call tomorrow. We will talk about sources, literature and ignorance.
          1. barbiturate
            barbiturate 30 January 2018 20: 53
            +1
            I already told you that you are mistaken. The efforts of historians are understandable, an attempt to justify the terrible catastrophes of our best armies with mythical numerical superiority, and not superiority in technology and command. So your biased books 1939 - ugh laughing
            1. Blue cop
              Blue cop 31 January 2018 06: 06
              16
              This is you engaged talker
              What can be biased in Soviet materials as applied to WWI. Rather, the opposite.
              The word ignoramus against the SOURCE under the auspices of the General Staff of the Red Army.
              However, some, like other children, instead of being treated, it is better to make new ones laughing
              1. Blue cop
                Blue cop 31 January 2018 06: 47
                16
                Amazing.
                Collection of documents - engaged. Because it was published by the General Staff of the Red Army and published in 1939.
                The Reichsarchive is also engaged (probably because the Germans wrote).
                Only Internet links and barbiturates are not biased
        2. Blue cop
          Blue cop 30 January 2018 16: 35
          16
          Brusilov broke through the Austrian front simply because the Austrians were LESS than the Russians, is this your competent explanation?

          Here is also a striking example of ignorance
          The advancing player must always have an advantage over the defender (1 to 3 min), and even more so for breaking through a layered defense.
          The troops of the front had to break through the enemy’s powerful defensive positions, consisting of two or four fortified bands located one after the other at a distance of 5-10 km, each in two or three full-profile trenches with numerous resistance nodes (dugouts, shelters, fox holes, machine-gun nests, loopholes, visors, etc.). In terms of firepower, the enemy significantly exceeded the Russian troops, who felt a great lack of heavy artillery.
          The Austro-Hungarian forces had 448 thousand bayonets and 27 thousand sabers, 1,3 thousand light and 545 heavy artillery pieces. When the German Kaiser visited the site of the Southern Army, he was delighted and announced that he had not seen such positions even in the West. The Austrians were so sure of the impregnability of their borders that they organized an exhibition in Vienna, which demonstrated models and photographs of defensive structures as the highest achievements of fortification.
          And our front did not have such superiority.
          In total, the South-Western Front (stretching 450 km from Styry to Prut) consisted of 573 thousand bayonets (against 448 of the enemy), 60 thousand sabers, 1770 light and 168 heavy guns (against 1300 light and 545 heavy guns).
          In any case, a 1 to 3 advantage in favor of the attacker, as required by military theory, was not respected. In artillery, the Russians did not have an (especially heavy) advantage. All hopes were for a thorough preparation of the operation and a new breakthrough technique.
          And they reached her.
          The area where the enemy was located was well studied by Russian military agents, army and aviation intelligence, and aerial photography was conducted. Officers and non-commissioned officers were supplied with plans for the attack sites. When each army had a designated area for the strike, troops secretly pulled in there, trained in the second echelon to overcome obstacles, training camps were built to train troops, and exact models of enemy positions were created. Artillery officers with infantry insignia worked out interaction with infantry at the forefront.
          Special assault bridgeheads were created. They made it possible to bring the infantry units as close as possible to the starting points of the attack (approaching 200-300 steps from the enemy - otherwise the infantry would have to move on average up to 1 km in the shooting area), shelters for reserves were created. Well-disguised artillery shot targets in advance. Each gun was shot separately, for which a section of each battery was divided into gun sections. The amount of ammunition was calculated both for the destruction of wire barriers, and to create a fire shaft. The batteries were given the exact sector of fire during the preparation of the attack, while they sought to flank the attacked areas. False batteries were built. All goals were numbered, and perspective drawings of the enemy’s location were drawn up. Copies of these drawings were issued to battalion and company commanders. Particularly serious attention was paid to establishing a connection between infantry and artillery, both between combined arms commanders and artillery. In most cases, two wires were laid.
          In order to maintain secrecy, even leave was granted to military personnel as usual. Almost no written orders were given. All preparations for the operation were developed and communicated to the command personnel in person at the meetings.
          Artillery tactics and much more were new.
          The most important thing.
          New in the plan of A. A. Brusilov was that the breakthrough of enemy positions was provided for in four directions at once - the main and auxiliary, in order to disperse the attention, forces and means of the enemy and deprive him of the ability to maneuver reserves. Artillery preparation in 4 places did not allow the latter to answer the question: where is the direction of the main strike? Moreover, within the framework of each army, several corps strike sections existed.
          That is why such success was achieved, a detractor of Russian military history, barbiturate (aka Uncle Murzik, aka V.O. Sh.).
          Having captured 408 thousand prisoners, 581 guns, 1795 machine guns, 448 enemy mortars and mortars, only in the first 13 days of the offensive did the South-Western Front advance by the 8th Army - 75 km, and the 9th Army - 50-60 km depth at the front is 200 km long.
          1. barbiturate
            barbiturate 30 January 2018 21: 00
            +1
            Why do I copy-paste it, clown? I know it better than you laughing
            I laughed at your logic that they say that Germans had more people and therefore they simply destroyed Samsonov, and now you are trying to prove that it is not quantity that is important at all, but equipment and preparation, reconnaissance and control, fighting spirit and unity of formations.
            So these are all my words, and you argued with them clown laughing
            Well you're really a mug laughing
            1. Blue cop
              Blue cop 31 January 2018 06: 04
              16
              Laugh at yourself ignoramus
              1. Blue cop
                Blue cop 31 January 2018 06: 08
                15
                He knows better than mine - a participant in the Brusilovsky breakthrough, however laughing
                Well preserved - I mean fingers and tongue, not the brain
  24. Hurricane70
    Hurricane70 15 February 2018 12: 00
    0
    This is what I missed the battle !!! Too bad a gnashing of teeth!
    Blue Ment Vs barbiturate !!!
    But ... even though you run out of bile and saliva, but in this battle with a crushing score wins .....
    BARBITURATE! Plus a prize for patience !!!
    Respect from me personally !!! drinks
  25. Bouncer
    Bouncer 15 February 2018 15: 29
    15
    And I believe that the Blue Cop wins
    Arguably, convincingly
    keep it up good
    1. kipage
      kipage 15 February 2018 15: 34
      15
      I support !!
      Assertive Broker Battle Bonus
      And from me personally - plus for knowing the source base drinks
      1. Bouncer
        Bouncer 9 March 2018 14: 56
        15
        Yes, we are all enthusiasts
        Not only Oskin laughing