Rose white, rose scarlet ...

“Oh bloody days! Oh look pitiful!
When lions fight over caves,
From their enmity, the poor sheep suffer "
William Shakespeare. Henry VI, part three. Translation E. Birukova

“Horse! Horse! Crown for the horse! ”
William Shakespeare. King Richard III. Translation by B. Leytin

“The bodies shall be interred as appropriate.
Pardon to announce to the soldiers -
Anyone who comes with a guilty head.
Then, having performed the rite, we connect
We are with a white rose scarlet forever. ”
William Shakespeare. King Richard III. Translation by B. Leytin

Miraculously escaping death, Sommerset came face to face with Wenlock, whom the count had hacked to death with his battle ax. The troops of the Yorkies, breaking through the center of the defense of the Lancasters, turned them into a stampede. The pursuit of the enemy ended in a terrible slaughter. Nobody was taken prisoner, and those who hoped to escape in the nearby monastery were killed. During this massacre, Margaret’s son, Prince Edward, died. But there is a version that the prince was killed after the battle on the orders of Edward IV. Count Sommerset died during the battle. And there is also a version according to which the count was captured and later executed. Her Majesty Queen Margaret was captured, taken to the Tower and imprisoned in a cell. And the remaining miserable handful of supporters of Lancaster hastily fled to the continent.

Richard III before the Battle of Bosworth: “England and York!” Fig. Graham Turner.

Meanwhile, the son of Edward became the Prince of Wales, and the land of Warwick passed into the possession of Richard Gloucester. Clarence also received his allotment, and to him the post of Lieutenant of Ireland. Now Edward was more involved in foreign policy. He signed an agreement with Charles, the Duke of Burgundy, according to which in 1475 the British troops would land in France. The army was staffed and at the appointed time safely moved through the strait. Louis, who was accustomed to solve all problems only through negotiations, and not battles, managed to sign an agreement with Edward, according to which Edward, for a decent ransom, must withdraw his troops from France. In addition to the ransom, he was promised an annual payment in 10 000 livres. Louis accepted all conditions. The deed was done, and from now on Edward could calmly rule the country.

The battle of Bosworth is described in detail in this edition.

Sunset of the York Dynasty 1483 – 1485

Edward IV died in the spring of 1483. The throne after his death was to pass on to his son, Edward V. But at that time the heir was only 12 years old. And immediately passions began to flare up around him: to whom to care for the minor heir. Those who were at one time particularly close to the late king: Earl Rivers, Marquis of Dorset, Thomas Lord Stanley - recognized as the guardian, more precisely the guardian, mother of Edward. But Richard Gloucester was still hoping to get the crown, and, gathering all the soldiers he had, went to London. There he makes an alliance with Henry Stafford.

And about the latinas of the Tudor era - that’s what ...

Less than a month since the death of Edward IV, as Richard became a protector. Soon he addressed the parliament, in which he argued that the marriage of Edward IV was invalid, since it could not do without magic, and, consequently, the son could not be the rightful heir. That is why he should get the crown, Richard. And the parliament reached an agreement with him. In July, 1483 was crowned. Just Richard became King Richard III. Edward's young sons all this time were in the Tower. But they soon disappeared. It was rumored that by order of Richard the children were strangled with pillows. Naturally, Richard himself kept silent about it.

Reconstruction of one of the battles of the War of the Roses. Battle of Tewksbury 1471.

In the fall in the west of England, the Duke of Buckingham and his supporters, Woodville and Courtenay, raised a rebellion. The goal is the coronation of Count Heinrich Tudor. His desire to ascend to the throne was explained by his kinship with Lancaster (his father was the son of the widow of Genry V and Owen Tudor). The riot was successfully put down by Richard III, and Buckingham was sent to the scaffold.

In August, 1485 in Pembrokeshire, owned by Earl Jasper, landed 3000 French mercenaries led by Heinrich Tudor. Then Henry went through Wales, where he was joined by a fairly large group of people dissatisfied with the rule of Richard. Both those and others began to accumulate power for the decisive battle.

The first attack of Richard III at the Battle of Bosworth. Fig. Graham Turner.

The final battle of the Rose War took place on 22 on August 1485 near the city of Bosworth.

Early in the morning, gathering the warriors, Richard addressed him with a speech, stating that the present day was crucial for him and for the King of England, Heinrich Tudor, and, possibly, for the whole of England. That is why he decided not to remove the crown from his head all day. Soon they brought the crown from the tent of Richard. And in the presence of all the participants in the upcoming battle, the crown was solemnly hoisted on the royal head.

King Richard III kills the standard bearer of Tudor Sir William Brandon, with the result that Henry's standard falls to the ground. He also succeeds in knocking off his horse with a spear to the head of the former standard-bearer King Edward IV. Fig. Graham Turner.

Richard’s army was superbly trained and equally well armed. The advance units of Richard's troops differed from those of Heinrich: the cavalry was cleverly interspersed with infantry and gunners, which in general was a reliable battle order. Commanded the arrows by the Duke of Norfolk. And Richard himself sat on the horse in the forefront.

The first stage of the battle (reconstruction based on historical Data): King Richard's troops descend down Embion Hill in order to fight Henry's men on the plain. Stanley's troops took up a position in the south, observing the situation.

The army reached Mount Ambien Hill. Its dislocation was very successful, because a full view of the valley below opened from above.

Heinrich Tudor's camp did not sleep. The army was preparing for battle. Heinrich asked Lord Stanley, his stepfather, to prepare his fighters, after all, he may need his help. The stepfather's answer was amazing: he seemed to have forgotten about military plans and advised Heinrich to prepare his people for battle, and he would come up at the right time.

Meanwhile, Heinrich gave the last orders, checked the alignment of forces in positions, hoping for help from Stanley. The advance guard of the army was weak: the first were the arrows under the command of John de Vare, Earl of Oxford. Sir Gilbert Talbot answered for the actions of the right flank, the left - Joe Sagewidge. Heinrich followed them with small detachments of cavalry and infantry.

Approaching the slope of Ambien Hill, Heinrich Tudor came across a swamp. He rounded the swamp on the left, and now the quagmire leaves absolutely no chance for the enemy to attack from the right flank. Due to this, the forces were saved, the losses were minimal. Richard immediately gave the order to go on the attack.

The clash of the armies of Richard III and Henry Tudor, diorama of the Bosworth Battle Heritage Center

After the cannon firing, the warriors agreed to melee. Meanwhile, the army of Oxford surrounded the warriors of Norfolk. This is where the Earl of Oxford, fearing that his warriors could move forward in the heat of the moment, orders: no further ten feet ahead. There was a respite. The soldiers of Oxford stood close together, because of this, it seemed that the army had begun a rebuilding, as if preparing for the next attack. Opponents, not understanding what to do next, stood in indecision. Warriors of Count Oxford began to attack. Lined up in the shape of a wedge, they began to break the line of the enemy.

Intelligence reported to Richard III that only a small group of soldiers was with Henry. The king decides to end the battle, and for this it is necessary "just" to kill Tudor. Richard on horseback rushed towards the enemy. Richard’s attack was dictated by fear and despair.

And here the battle between Richard III and Henry Tudor broke out. Heinrich fought desperately. Sir William Stanley came with the help when Heinrich did not hope for anything. However, the king’s guards were slaughtered, but Richard lost his horse and was left alone. He fought on foot, and defended himself as best he could, but received many severe wounds. However, the battlefield King Richard never left. He died, and all his personal security.

Richard's funeral was very modest. His body was transported to the Franciscan Monastery in Leicester. They said goodbye to him for two days in the monastery. His Majesty's funeral accessories were very simple: the body was covered with a regular black cloth. There, in the territory of the monastery of Richard III and buried. Later, during the church split, the king’s grave was excavated. The remains were thrown away, and the coffin was used as a feeder for horses. Richard III was the only English king, who has no grave.

Battle Finale: Richard leads a small detachment of soldiers to attack Heinrich, who was moving towards Stanley. William Stanley went to help Henry.

Despite the victory of Tudor and his coronation, the next two years turned out to be extremely restless for him. In 1486, in Yorkshire, Lord Lowell, Richard's chamberlain, rebelled. The rebels fled at the sight of Henry with a strong army, and Lowell fled to Flanders. In May 1487 r he arrived in Ireland with an army that included 2000 Swiss mercenaries, led by captain Martin Schwartz, and with them 1500 German mercenaries. Together with Lowell was the count of Lincoln and around Yorkists 200. This rebellion was raised as if on behalf of Edward, but since he was in the Tower, his role went to the double, Lambert Simnel. The lords of Ireland took his side. He was crowned king in Dublin and became Edward VI. For several weeks, Lincoln recruited almost 4000 Irish soldiers, commanded by Thomas Fitzgerald. The army landed in England. And in July, 1487 was a battle near Stock. The rebels were defeated, Lincoln and Fitzgerald died. Heinrich Tudor, having married Edward IV’s daughter Elizabeth, united both roses on his coat of arms, thus ending the Scarlet and White Roses War.

Death of Richard III. To the right is the king's horse, mired in a swamp. On the left is the guard of the royal banner, Sir Percival Sirwell, who lost both legs in battle, but kept the banner of York raised upward until he was hacked. Fig. Graham Turner.

The result?

The confrontation between the Scarlet and White roses was incredibly cruel. The struggle brought to a complete exhaustion, and then the death of both kinds. The war of the people of England brought only internal discord, exorbitant taxes, theft of the treasury. During the entire war, most of the aristocracy was destroyed, and countless confiscations of property completely undermined its power. It is curious, but at the same time land plots of the new nobility and merchants have grown many times over. The blacksmiths were also enriched, because they were engaged only in those that were forging day and night weapon and armor, which had never before been developed in England and in such quantities. Here they all, both merchants and artisans, became the strong rear of the absolutism of the Tudor dynasty.

Comments

[DimanC]

Here, in fact, the reason for the Rose War - it was necessary to change the elite ...

[seti]

Many of the events cited and described in this article are not true. There is a contemporary work by Peter Hammond "Richard 3 and the Battle of Bosward" where everything is carefully described and not based on fiction or rewriting of later authors controlled by the new Tudor dynasty. And on the recollections of eyewitnesses participating in the described events or observing them from the side. A lot of documents of that era are given. And the one who writes this article needed to take this into account.
I note the grossest blunders of this article:
- One of the most important mistakes of whom they appointed a guardian. Officially, Edward 4 appointed his brother Richard Gloucester as the guardian of his infant son. And Earl Rivers, the Marquis of Dorset, (uncle's heir) and his mother wanted to move him aside. On their side were many close associates of the deceased king, afraid of Richard's authority. Such as the ubiquitous Thomas Lord Stanley who is well known for possessing an excellent instinct for choosing the winner side. Naturally, Richard Gloucester could not allow him to be pushed aside in this matter. He would lose both influence and perhaps his head.

Quote: Denisova Svetlana

But Richard Gloucester was still hoping to get a crown, and, collecting all the soldiers he had, went to London.

Richard at that time did not even think about the crown. This is well described by Peter Hammond. The purpose of the warrior gathering was to dictate to the Lords in London the testament of the king so that they correctly vote for guardianship. Costly preparations were made for the coronation of the prince. The latter was treated at that time as an heir.

Quote: Denisova Svetlana

Soon, he addressed a parliament in which he claimed that Edward IV’s marriage was not valid, since it could not do without magic, and therefore his son could not be a legitimate heir. Therefore, he must receive the crown, Richard.

This was first discussed during the lifetime of Edward 4. But naturally, during the life of the king, who has all the full power, he did not scream out loud in the cathedrals. Except perhaps for the brother of Edward 4 Herceg Clarence .. This is one of the reasons for which he subsequently paid with his life. His son (this is important) Edward Earl Warwick lost his inheritance - his possessions were confiscated. Catherine Woodville was not the first wife of Edward 4. There are official documents, the king was what is called painted with another woman before their marriage. The king was a great lover of women and had many illegitimate children ..

Quote: Denisova Svetlana

The young sons of Edward all this time were in the Tower. But they soon disappeared. It was rumored that by order of Richard the children were strangled with pillows. Naturally, Richard himself was silent about this.

The article is not a word of how they got there and why. As well as about what happened to Catherine Woodville. I advise you to get acquainted. There is plenty of evidence that Richard 3 did not give orders to kill his nephews. And what later was well known about this in the Tudor era. I recall the wife of Henry 6 was the sister of the princes. And there is iron evidence that the order to kill them was given by Herceg Buckingham (not the one in the musketeers). Why did he subsequently cross over to the side of the Lancaster / Tudors and was killed during a failed riot .. Richard Gloucester’s correspondence with Ekaterina Woodville about the fate of her children has been preserved. Why later she supported exactly Richard 3 and not Heinrich Tudor. And she asked the same about her brother, who is in Brittany, from Heinrich Tudor. Let me remind you that her daughters remained alive, but they were also under the control of Richard 3 Gloucester.

Quote: Denisova Svetlana

Henry asked Lord Stanley, his stepfather, to prepare his fighters, because perhaps his help would be needed. The stepfather’s response was amazing: he seemed to forget about military plans and advised Henry to prepare his men for battle, and he would come at the right time.

There was correspondence between them, but there was no personal contact. Stanley was a third party in the battle. This once again only says that Stanley was a sly fox and waited until the last. But his brother was officially recognized as a rebel and was in the army of Heinrich Tudor.

Quote: Denisova Svetlana

This rebellion was raised, as it were, on behalf of Edward, but since he stayed in the Tower, his role went to the double, Lambert Simnel.

Which Edward? Apparently the writer himself vaguely understands what he is talking about. Let me explain - Edward described here is Eduard Plantagenet, the 17 th Earl of Warwick the son of brother Richard 3 of Gloucester and Eduard 4 - George Plantagenet, the 1 Duke of Clarence. Again, not a word why the latter got to the Tower and what happened to him ..

Maybe Richard 3 Gloucester is not an angel (he was not a hunchback and a disabled person either, although this was attributed), but he was a good ruler and he certainly did not deserve such a stream of dirt. And honestly died on the battlefield and did not drape from his killers. Let me remind you that in the army of his opponent the British had no more than 10%.

[Weyland]

Quote: seti

such a stream of dirt just did not deserve.

black PR ... It’s just that Shakespeare, at first to please the Tudors, poured mud on the worthy King Richard, and after the change of dynasty to replace the Tudors, the Stuarts began to pour mud on the equally worthy King Macbeth! He poured mud over the Orleans Virgin, but her PR specialists turned out to be better!

[Rotmistr]

There was nowhere to apply the English nobility - the Hundred Years War ended
I wanted to fight
Like spiders in a jar ...

[XII legion]

Half-kingdom for a horse!
There are such moments in history
Clear and interesting
Thank you!

[Cat]

Thanks to the author, but not enough ......

[kalibr]

This is a historical sketch, no more. More specifically about the weapons, tactics and even medicine of the war of the Roses will be later.

[seti]

Quote: XII legion

Half-kingdom for a horse!
There are such moments in history

This phrase is a complete lie from Shakespeare. The latter was completely under the control of the Tudor era and stated what was beneficial to them. Richard 3 never uttered this phrase. At the time of the battle just before his death (according to the recollections of eyewitnesses and on the basis of documents (!), He only called his knights from his retinue to him and exclaimed from time to time - or I will win or die like a king. Most of his companions died heroically and Richard himself received at least 5 severe wounds.

[3x3zsave]

You know, in such a conspiracy thesis it is possible to agree that Hamlet is an order from Norwegians. After all, no one survived except Fortinbras and Horatio (and isn’t this the Norwegian “Cossack” ?!) And so: “a good play. 8 corpses in the finale”

[seti]

Always the government of those times, if it had brains, made an order to poets or chroniclers. And the case of Shakespeare is no exception. He lived when the Tudors ruled, and naturally when you write a play about a historical event in which the founder of the current dynasty appears, you need to write something good about him. And there must be a bad character. But the value of authenticity in the historical plan of such a work is naturally none.

[Weyland]

Quote: 3x3zsave

but not whether it is mishandled by the Norwegian "Cossack"

This version has long been voiced, Google to help. Bullshit, of course - given the real story of Hamlet (who, by the way, survived in that chopping and became a king!)

[Morozov]

Wars start to earn "loot". So people made money, as best they could.

[parusnik]

The young sons of Edward all this time were in the Tower. But they soon disappeared. It was rumored that by order of Richard the children were strangled with pillows.

... A dark story ... The version that the princes were killed by order of Richard III was proposed by W. Shakespeare in his tragedy "Richard III", and who read, Richard in this play is portrayed simply as a monster ... Otherwise it was impossible since it was written during the Tudor era ...

[avva2012]

Great thing is literature! With Pushkin’s light hand, Solleri poisoned Mozart and this does not require proof

[Mordvin 3]

Lying Pushkin. He is shell-shocked.
Only the plague will overpower me
Only Frost ossifies,
Only the barrier slams into my forehead,
Unstoppable disabled person ...

[sivuch]

Pushkin only repeated the common version. It all started with the recognition (possibly self-incrimination) of Salieri himself. In his old age, the roof went.
And, again, V. Shakespeare was the most talented, but not the very first. And the first to portray Richard as a monster was de Commin and, quite possibly, not for free.

[avva2012]

Who would have known in Russia this widespread version, if not for Pushkin’s talent. But Shakespeare, in general, turned Richard into a hunchback. Apparently the strangulation of the children was not enough for a portrait.

[Cat]

Yeah ..... it remains to recall Pushkin "bloody boys" in Godunov!
And it all started ..... But Alexander Sergeyevich has a real historical book about the acts of Peter I, but how many people know about this?

[avva2012]

Vladislav, I do not know. Even the names. If possible, write?
And the "bloody boys in the eyes", as I understand it, is a hint of a self-cutting Dmitry? Yes, there was such a version, but something among the people did not take root and Godunov, like Solleri, is not considered a murderer. Maybe because they didn’t study at school?

[parusnik]

The History of Peter I is an incomplete historical work, which presents a chronology of events during the reign of Peter I. However, his plan remained unfulfilled. After Pushkin’s death, “The Story of Peter I” was banned by Nicholas I. The passage, which made up most of the text, was published in 1938 and was included in a large academic publication of Pushkin’s works. I have just such a publication, though 1977 ... Where from abbreviations and took information. And yet, the full text was published in 1950 in the Bulletin of the USSR Academy of Sciences.

[avva2012]

Thanks Alexey, I will search. Well, it seems that we know everything about Pushkin, but no, it turns out not all and not all.

[albert]

So, Stevenson, in the "black arrow", also writes that Richard is a hunchback. Again, a political order, like Shakespeare?

[Looking for]

I advise you to ask when RL Stevenson wrote The Black Arrow in those years there was already a world literary image of Richard III as an evil vengeful hunchback.

[parusnik]

Shakespeare is not the first .. But his version was more rapid and widespread ...

[3x3zsave]

And don’t talk! Richard the Lionheart, who brought the largest and richest power of that time to poverty and not much to the baronial rebellion, at the suggestion of W. Scott is considered the noblest knight, and John Landless, who actually saved the kingdom, is a quirky bastard.

[avva2012]

Well, that reminded. In my opinion, this is the only work where Richard is truly the “knight”. Maybe because Walter Scott is a Scot?

[3x3zsave]

I think Scott drew inspiration from English folk ballads, in which Richard's name is associated with the image of Robin Hood. Again, the king, who spent most of his rule in FIG knows where, only not within the borders of his state, finds in the eyes of the people the image of the “good king”. He doesn’t pull taxes, but the local bloodthirsty baron. "Here comes the master, the master will judge us." Everything is as always, nothing is changing ...

[avva2012]

I agree with you. Another point. The scots are very good belonged to the British. I think the massacre between the enemies aroused understanding, and the loser king, sympathy, from the principle, "is good, but not enough."

[Weyland]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Lion Heart,

Few people know that they gave him a nickname not for courage, but for cruelty! By the way, Richard the Lionheart was "alternatively oriented" - is that why he is so praised in the civilized Geyrope?

[3x3zsave]

Tell me who specifically praises, I’ll move out - I’ll spit in the face. (We don’t take Bertrand de Born into account, he died a long time ago).

[Luga]

Quote: parusnik

... a dark story ...

- A remote place, Watson. Are you already thinking about this business?
- It does not enter my mind.
- What are your thoughts?
- Complicated story...
- How true, Watson ...
(c) Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson. Hound of the Baskervilles.
Seriously, I would recommend the author to better prepare material for publication. If in the first two parts we came across a simply unsystematic and fragmentary exposition, in the third part the author began to make gross errors and outright blunders, caused, it seems to me, by the fact that he himself did not understand the events, their causes, consequences, and most importantly, consistency. I would like to be condescending, but to leave without such comments such mistakes would be dishonest both to the readers and to the author himself, who may be planning to continue his work on popularizing various historical events.
To start, mistakes and mistakes.

Meanwhile, Edward's son became Prince of Wales, and Warwick lands passed into the possession of Richard Gloucester.

Why? What did Gloucester have to do with Warwick's legacy, which was very, very broad, by the way? Warwick had two daughters - Isabella and Anna, one married to George, Duke of Clarence, brother of Edward IV, the second to Edward, Prince of Wales, son of Henry VI, who, as the author rightly noted, died in the Battle of Tewkesbury. That is, at the time of the “debriefing” after the battle, Anna was no longer a wife, but a widow. Warwick had no other official heirs, so half of the inheritance immediately went to Clarence, as the husband of his eldest daughter Isabella, and Anna, who, despite her widowhood, by that time was 15 years old (1471), was given to Clarence under guardianship, that is, in fact, he completely took over the inheritance of the “king-maker”. He could only kill Anna or take her to the monastery, the main thing is that she does not get married. But here he was not lucky, because his brother Richard Gloucester began to claim Anna Neville's hand. Clarence hid Anna in one of his estates. A detective story with the disappearance of Anna Neville, her search and acquisition, despite the fact that it is richly and variably described in various novels, really had a place to be. Richard found her, kidnapped, placed her in one of the monasteries controlled by him and began to seek permission from his brother Edward IV for marriage. Edward gave such permission, but Clarence managed to reserve almost the entire share of Anna's inheritance. After receiving a dispensation from the Pope (Anna was his cousin), Richard married her (1472), despite the fact that due to the intrigues of Clarence, she remained, in fact, a docile. In 1478, Mr. Clarence was found guilty of high treason and executed, leaving behind a three-year-old son, to whom his father's possessions were transferred. So Richard had the most indirect relation to the Warwick legacy.
Next.

There, in the monastery of Richard III, they buried. Later, during the years of church schism, the tomb of the king was unearthed. The remains were thrown away, and the coffin was used as a feeder for horses. Richard III was the only English king who does not have a grave.

This is already very bad. In my opinion, a person who has decided to write on a topic should at least superficially take an interest in this very topic, and not limit himself to one monograph of twenty years or more. In 2012, during a specially organized excavation, Richard's burial was discovered, all possible studies have been carried out, including genetic, and with a probability of 99,9% it was established that it was Richard III's body that was in the discovered grave. So no one threw him anywhere, this author, in my opinion, was obliged to know. In 2015, Richard III was pompously buried in Leicester.
These are two errors that caught my eye right away, both of which can only be explained by the fact that the author has poor knowledge of the material and did not bother to study even Russian-language sources on the topic. You can not do it this way.
Later, I re-read the article, maybe something else will appear that I should write about.

[Cat]

Dare - we are only at all paws!

To be honest Malekho, many of us have become idlers. For example, I did not even criticize the article, confident that I would get it in the comments.

[parusnik]

Honestly Maleho, many of us became lazy

... It was rightly noticed, the identity did not particularly climb, he hoped for the rest ...

[Curious]

In England since 1924, The Richard III Society has existed.
The first press publications that the remains of Richard III could be located under the municipal car park of Leicester, where the Franciscan monastery church was located during the War of the Roses, appeared back in 1975. In 2004 and 2005, Philip Langley, Secretary of the Scottish Branch of the Richard III Society, conducted research in Leicester. In 2005, John Ashdown Hill announced that he had DNA samples from the descendants of Richard III.
Three years later, writer Annette Carson, in her book Richard III: The Maligned King (2008), independently came to the conclusion that his body probably lies under the parking lot. It was these people, as well as David Johnson, the Richard III Society, the University of Leicester, who were at the forefront of the project to search for the remains of the king.
Here's what they found on the first day of the excavation.

In addition to the scoliosis that Richard suffered, traces of eleven wounds with knives were found on the skeleton. According to experts, death came from two blows to the head, inflicted by a sword or halberd. The remaining wounds were inflicted on a dead body.
On February 4, 2013, the University of Leicester, having carried out all studies accessible to modern science, confirmed that the skeleton belongs to Richard III.
I think this historical detective deserves a separate article. Maybe the author of today's article will please us with this?

[Curious]

Owners of enemy languages ​​may not wait for an article, but read this book.

[3x3zsave]

That is, he still had serious problems with the spine?

[Mikado]

as far as I remember from publications about his find, he even had digestive problems in the face of parasites ... sorry if anyone is sick. I could be wrong!

[marline]

Quote: Mikado

as far as I remember from publications about his find, he even had digestive problems in the face of parasites ...

I also read about it ... By the way, alcohol was a popular way to deal with this ailment (although this method may have become popular a bit later). It is from here that the feet of the famous grow - "to kill the worm", i.e. drink on an empty stomach - to eliminate parasites.
So maybe Richard Gloucester also drank on an empty stomach.

[Mikado]

It is from here that the feet of the famous grow - to kill a worm, i.e. drink on an empty stomach - to eliminate parasites.

I think it was.
Here recently I came across an article on the drunkenness of Europeans in India and other Southeast Asia in the 17-19th centuries. It is believed that they drank alcohol there, like horses water. Otherwise, they would die from any local infection.

[marline]

Quote: Mikado

Here recently I came across an article on the drunkenness of Europeans in India and other Southeast Asia in the 17-19th centuries. It is believed that they drank alcohol there, like horses water. Otherwise, they would die from any local infection.

It is justified))) But we know that they drank like horses in their own country.
Although maybe they have such training before being sent to the colony

[Mikado]

well, they even had premieres in love for the serpent - Pitt, Churchill. which, incidentally, did not prevent their cabinet from pursuing a successful policy.
"This tank has more shortcomings than mine!"(Churchill glancing at the tank named after him)

[marline]

Quote: Mikado

well, they even had premieres in love for the serpent - Pitt, Churchill.

Why are there premieres ... Alcoholic kings were - Henry VIII - the brightest of examples!

[Mikado]

Alcoholic kings were - Henry VIII - the brightest of examples!

Yes, he was on the female side was still that walker. True, he somehow strangely walked, a third executed.

[3x3zsave]

And there is. At least in Goa since the time of the Portuguese, the sanitary situation has not improved. Another thing is that the locals are saved by an abundance of spices in food, but Europeans .... In short, whoever has the liver "on it" for that.

[Mikado]

Yes, even the Manila galleon sometimes arrived with only half the passengers and crew, but there, of course, mortality was due to conditions and rotten food.
Pay attention, Anton, we are discussing with your companions an interesting topic of healthcare, and the Good Doctor at this time ... is not taking part in this!

[3x3zsave]

And the Doctor reads and laughs at us, amateurs ...

[avva2012]

And, what a long way to go, among the "natives" of the Tomsk region, almost one hundred percent infection with opisthorchiasis and nothing lives on their own.

[avva2012]

An interesting topic of worms, of course. There is a theory that autoimmune diseases of the human intestine occur due to the fact that local immunity is sharpened to combat parasites. Due to the fact that modern medicine was able to rid us of fellow travelers, the body begins to fight with itself. Thus, there are methods of special infection with parasites for treatment. Then deworming is done. Such is the dialectic. With worms is bad, but without them too.

[Mikado]

With worms is bad, but without them too.

We’ll somehow keep up with modern medicine. To whom it is bad without them - let them go to North Korea. Dr. Malakhov generally recommended that they be removed its standard way ...
One hell, nature will come up with something, from which there will be no medicine at that time.

[3x3zsave]

That is, Aboriginal organisms themselves do well with authentic parasites and treat them - only spoil it?

[avva2012]

We’ll somehow keep up with modern medicine.
I agree, but periodically we return to the roots. For example, for the treatment of superficial, chronic ulcers, sometimes fly larvae are used. They eat necrotic tissue, secreting a special enzyme that promotes healing (the Gladiator movie did not lie). Hirudotherapy, i.e., leeches, are also indispensable, especially from them, there are no side symptoms.
I repeat, given where the medicine is heading, such methods will still be required.

[Curious]

"For example, for the treatment of superficial, chronic ulcers, sometimes fly larvae are used. "
According to the stories of my father, it was the larvae of the flies that saved him from gangrene during the Great Patriotic War. There was no one to amputate the leg. Dressing was absent. Medicines too. And flies were plentiful. True, nobody used them specifically, they themselves "applied."

[Curious]

There and now, from the local infection, die once again spit pale face. Nothing really changed,

[Mikado]

I have no doubt ...
That's about nutrition. You probably read about Franklin’s polar expedition?

[Curious]

As far as I remember, they were looking for the Northwest Passage. Arctic. What parasites are there.

[Mikado]

there are no parasites. As far as I remember, there was lead intoxication due to poor-quality solder in cans.

[avva2012]

"True, nobody used them specifically, they themselves" applied. "
Who knows, how to know, during the times of totalitarianism, perhaps these were special flies of the military medical service of the Red Army.

[Curious]

Then it was a very "long-range" flies, or relocated abandoned in the occupied territory. In a hospital setting, a leg would be amputated without talking. Especially the "civilian" traumatologists were surprised at the absence of about a quarter of the tibia.

[avva2012]

Spetsnaz VMA RKKA, for sure! Judging by your story, your father had osteomyelitis. Nothing good, either, but not gangrene. By the way, now, despite antibiotics, osteomyelitis is treated extremely dreary.
And the number of amputations in our army was minimal compared to any army of that time. What is osteomyelitis, and then they knew perfectly well, they would have treated, though it’s really painful this whole thing, extremely. Larvae of flies are really better.

[Weyland]

Quote: avva2012

perhaps these were special flies of the military medical service of the Red Army.

You should not be ironic - Saint Luke (Voyno-Yasenetsky) purposefully and quite successfully applied this method! Given that he was an exiled "enemy of the people" - it is easy to imagine how he risked falling under another article as a "pest doctor"!

[avva2012]

I’m not ironic. About V.F. Voino-Yasenetsky and his "Essays on Purulent Surgery", any first-year student of the Soviet Medical Institute knew. The fate of the professor, too, was not particularly hidden. Given that during the Second World War, students were called up starting from the third year, there were enough “pest doctors” and they didn’t attract anyone. People worked hard. And Soviet medicine did its job brilliantly. So merge your ideas in the other direction, no matter how easy it is for you, it was.

[Curious]

Yes, worm eggs and worms themselves were found in his remains. The impact of these parasites on history has not yet found a decent display on the site. Meanwhile, worms are full participants in many historical events.
For example, scientists from the University of Cambridge), who examined the stone toilets of the Crusaders, found out the causes of the deaths of many soldiers who died not on the battlefield.
Having studied the contents of cesspools under a microscope, scientists found in them the eggs of the two most common parasites: whipworms (lat. Trichuris trichiura) - roundworms that cause trichocephalosis (damage to the organs of the gastrointestinal tract), and roundworms (lat. Ascarididae), leading to damage walls of the small intestine and causing perforated peritonitis, bronchitis, focal pneumonia, hemoptysis, liver and pancreas diseases.
"It is likely that the medieval soldiers taking part in long sieges and campaigns experienced hunger in anticipation of food supplies. In such circumstances, the risk of death from exhaustion increased significantly, because they had to share scanty doses of food with parasites," the researcher explained.

[Mikado]

at the then level of sanitation and medicine, it seems to me that the loss of death to the wounded and sick was huge ...
but parasites, excuse me, in the Ancient World, probably, were a normal occurrence, both in Ancient Rome and in China. The reason is fish sauce!

[marline]

Quote: Mikado

at the then level of sanitation and medicine, it seems to me that the loss of death to the wounded and sick was huge ...

What can I say, if Henry V died of dysentery, without becoming king of France.

[avva2012]

Yeah. Just a disease of dirty hands. Europe. Although, what can we say about the Middle Ages. In the 19 century, after opening the corpses, they were engaged in obstetric care with the same hands, as a result of which the women at the clinic died of fever. Semmelweiss was poisoned.

[marline]

Quote: avva2012

Semmelweiss was baited.

I read about him, he was generally treated in a hospital for the mentally ill, although the treatment was more like torture ... what can I say, wild people ...

[avva2012]

Well, actually, then, he went crazy, most likely, because such ailments, then treated hard. Stimulation was ruled out.
By all indications, the man was persecuted, so he started. Civilized society must be said, and yet his idea, to wash his hands, even put nobody on his grandmother. I apologize for the expression.

[3x3zsave]

Excuse me, Viktor Nikolaevich, but the crusaders in a compartment with stone toilets cause me doubts. Maybe the presence of the latter in the Middle East is still a legacy of the Romans?

[Mikado]

Maybe the presence of the latter in the Middle East is still a legacy of the Romans?

I don’t know about the toilets, but the legacy of the Romans is precisely Vodokanal, God grant him health!

[3x3zsave]

I’ll give you a bust of Vespasian’s next birthday!

[Mikado]

Oh thank you! I will wipe it every day!

[Curious]

"Not far from the port of Paphos, located in Cyprus, is a UNESCO World Heritage Site - the ruins of the medieval castle" Saranda Colones ", which means forty columns.
The fortress received this name because of granite pillar-shaped structures. Archaeologists believe that the Knights built the Saranda Colones to protect the harbor of Paphos.
It was these rooms, designed to meet the natural needs of the crusaders, that researchers Evelina Anestacy and Pierce Mitchell became interested in. They carefully examined the crescent-shaped stone toilets and took several samples. "

[3x3zsave]

I read about the fortress, originally built by the Byzantines, the crusaders owned it for 22 years, before the destruction by an earthquake. Thus, the "crusader" origin of the toilets is doubtful.

[Curious]

You know, the question of the hygienic skills of the crusaders is quite interesting. Somehow, while visiting the castle in Boulogne-sur-Mer with a friend (he is a local resident and historian in one bottle), I also expressed doubts about the courtesy of the owners.
Upon returning home, he returned to this question and said that these were stereotypes. Unfortunately, all the books on which he relied were in French, but I have no reason not to believe him. One of these books by Regin Pernoux is Pour en finir avec le Moyen Âge. Unfortunately, there is no Russian translation of this book, there is only her book, Crusaders.
But the point is this. In the XIII-XIV centuries, the nobility with hygiene was all right.
Not in a campaign, of course, when they didn’t take off their armor during the week, but in their castle in peacetime. And they washed, and the toilets were very decent - even with air fragrances, an analogue of toilet paper existed.
The decline of hygiene in Western Europe began at the end of the XVI - beginning of the XVII century, in connection with religious wars, general fanaticism (which the Middle Ages could not even dream of on such a scale) and general devastation. Then, indeed, they began to urinate at the curtains, and they were afraid to wash, and they did not provide for toilets in the palaces. This level of personal hygiene, which took place in the XIV-XV century, Europe again reached only about 150 years ago.
Maybe our authors - historians will be able to write an article on this topic?

[3x3zsave]

You are undoubtedly right. I myself read (episodes) about a good culture of personal hygiene of the "high" Middle Ages, otherwise European civilization had no chance to survive to the plague pandemic of the mid-14th century. earlier would have rested from dysentery, cholera and typhoid. In doubt, in this particular case, I was introduced by the region where the fortress was located and the period of its ownership by the crusaders. Yes, they were engaged in the reconstruction of structures, but the sewage system, especially the open type, requires quite fundamental interventions in the initial project. Although, FIG knows, they could intervene, and take the fortification and fell apart at the first tremors.

[seti]

He had no serious ones. Now, if I lived to 50 then there were problems. He spent a lot of time on horseback and constantly practiced with various weapons. This suggests that his spine withstood heavy loads .. Also, while studying his skeleton, it is known that his right hand was significantly developed, which confirms his contemporaries who claimed that Richard Gloucester was one of the best sword fighters. It is known that in previous battles he constantly participated in the battle itself and did not sit out in the rear.
And parasites in the intestines. This is the standard for that era. As well as for ours.

[3x3zsave]

Sorry, for God's sake, maybe I saw something wrong, but in my opinion, the skeleton of the deceased has a strong curvature of the spine, or the hump! Doctor, aye !? What do you think?

[seti]

Are you sure that the skeleton in the photo was Richard 3 Gloucester? This is far from a fact. Like the bend of the spine of the skeleton - it could be displaced during the decomposition of the body or related factors.
Here is a good article where the skeleton in the photo is described.

https://www.nkj.ru/archive/articles/24976/

[3x3zsave]

I used to trust the person who brought this photo. As I understand it, you also detect spinal deformity in the picture, so you question the source of the information. In this regard, I propose to turn to Curious, he will explain what and where is taken from. Otherwise, let me consider your information, and conclusions based on it - doubtful.

[Curious]

Photograph taken from the Scottish newspaper Daily Record. As part of the Trinity Mirror newspaper group, it is closely associated with the Daily Mirror, and the main events of "all-British British significance are reported in both newspapers. You understand the level of these publications. This is not the" news "section of the VO site.
In turn, a photograph was provided for the newspaper by the University of Leicester. She is featured in a newspaper along with an interview with Philippa Langley.
The only inaccuracy in my comment is that I designated Philippe Langley as a man. Translation costs on the go. And a smartphone is not the best device for such comments.

[seti]

I do not agree with you.
I looked through enough articles on this subject and looked at a lot of photos. And read enough historians and expert opinions.
I advise you to get acquainted with this work:
https://sherlock-series.livejournal.com/1356161.h
tml
So do not believe the order. Let me remind you that the descendants of Richard 3 and the Plantagenet dynasty in general have more rights to the throne of Great Britain than the current dynasty. And therefore, it is now profitable to throw mud at Richard Gloucester and his descendants .. I have the honor.

[Curious]

You will excuse me, if the rest of your materials on which your opinion is based are the same "works" as the one that you recommend, then excuse me. "These are not serious." I operate with the information of a respected university in Britain and famous people in the scientific world. I would like to see similar ones, LJ is an authority for blondes.

[seti]

In general, in order not to be unfounded, I wrote an essay on the appearance of Richard Gloucester. I hope to publish it. Above I brought a writer who in his book (modern) relied on documents of that era and did not take information from the ceiling. There will be two links in the essay (the second is more interesting and very detailed)
By the way, you apparently did not notice that this "expert" provides the same information as you. Rather, the same source. University of Leicester - but you didn’t even notice it ..)

[Curious]

Of course I didn’t notice. I do not read LJ. I do not like amateur creativity, even in music, even in history, even in a theater group. So here I have a drawback.

[Curious]

This is called idiopathic scoliosis.

[avva2012]

idiopathic scoliosis

As I understand it, this is the conclusion of the doctors who examined the remains? It is not possible to say unambiguously from the photograph that it was intravital or this displacement due to some other reasons. In general, if the skeleton had these changes during his lifetime, then in such a neglected case, he would hardly have lived to see 40 years. About idiopathic scoliosis. It manifests itself often at an early age and is treated by gymnastics, i.e., exercises that strengthen the muscles of the spinal column. In my opinion, everything was in order with exercises of any kind in the Middle Ages. The reason for the hump at the time, IMHO, is most likely either bone tuberculosis or trauma.

[Curious]

Yes, that was the conclusion of the doctors. They even built a 3D model.

[avva2012]

I.e., the hunchback. Tuberculosis is excluded in this case, naturally, because there would be characteristic “bumps” on the bone tissue. I recall the film "Meeting Place ..." and the observation that the development of the right shoulder girdle was determined from the remains. Monstrous power, apparently, possessed Richard.

[seti]

I completely agree with the writer. There is even a program showing the exhumation of the remains of Richard 3 face restoration and reburial.

[Luga]

Quote: seti

Apparently the writer himself vaguely understands what he is talking about.

I also got the impression. Here is another pearl.

The confrontation between Scarlet and White roses was incredibly fierce. The struggle led to complete exhaustion, and then death of both genera.

At the time of Tudor's accession, Edward Plantagenet, the earl of George Clarence, mentioned by you, was alive and well. He was executed only in the 1499 year.
Still.

Here, the Earl of Oxford, fearing that his warriors in fever might move forward, orders: do not move forward ten feet further.

The order was not to depart more than ten steps from its standard, that is, to advance in tight formation.

Richard on horseback rushed towards the enemy. Richard's attack was dictated by fear and despair.

About fear, Richard launched an attack.
Richard saw what was happening on the battlefield perfectly. Stanley, despite repeated orders, did not enter the battle, Northumberdend also did not go down the hill under far-fetched pretexts. Seeing that the whole army of Henry fell upon the vanguard of Norfolk and that the latter was dead, Richard realized that he was betrayed and was in the minority among the enemies. In this case, it did not make sense to wait for the Norfolk detachment to finish off and come to take him, Richard, captive. It was necessary to either run or attack with ghostly chances to destroy the leader of the rebels and put an end to the battle. He chose the second. Perhaps he hoped that Northumberland would nevertheless go down the hill and that Stanley would not dare to attack. In this case, the fate of the crown would be decided in fact in a knightly duel in which few would bet on Henry. It could have happened like that. And to blame Richard for cowardice, in my opinion ... let's say so softly ... erroneously.

According to the results of the three parts of the article, I believe that the topic was studied by the author very superficially, and was not properly disclosed. Considering how much quality material there is in it, both in English and in Russian, I personally find this extremely surprising. And further. I do not presume to judge for everyone, but personally I note a sharp drop in the level of presentation of the material as the next parts of the article are published. If the author plans to continue his work in the future, serious attention should be paid to this - this is not so much material that fatigue affects the end of his writing.
The topic itself is interesting, let's say, “romantic,” there is a place for cold-blooded analysis and imaginative emotional and at the same time historically reliable scenes and I am very sorry that the author neglected the opportunity to use such fertile ground for creativity.
However, I have a suspicion that the author is still damn, just extremely young, and his main works are yet to come. I wish him to improve, because there is where, well, good luck.

[uskrabut]

Like our bandits in the 90s. Nothing has changed since then.

[voyaka uh]

And what is the moral of this fable? There is nothing in history to delve into the question: "for whom am I?"
Ask the Englishman today: "Who are you: for the Scarlet Rose or for the White?"
He twists a finger at the temple.
The same applies to the Civil War. 100 years have passed - history.
Neither for the Reds nor for the Whites.

[Morozov]

or for the Reds and the Whites ... Russian soldiers, after all. They fought desperately, with dignity. They rest in peace ...

[Luga]

Quote: voyaka uh

He twists a finger at the temple.

Did you ask
Most, of course, do not care, but who are Lancaster and Yorkie they are well aware and understand the meaning of the issue, do not hesitate. But if you ask us - are you for Vasily Kosy or for the Dark One, you can use your finger at the temple.

[Cat]

Is it a shame for Shemyak?
But in fact it’s true - to love and know your own story is necessary, and then “foreign”!

[Luga]

Quote: Kotischa

Is it a shame for Shemyak?

It's a shame. Why is it worse? Now Richard III has been buried, so tourists already come to his grave specifically to see. And our tourists will be told "here is the grave of Shemyaki", followed by the question "and what?". What to answer?

[voyaka uh]

Will not twist, of course. They have not accepted such a gesture.
But he will shrug ...

[Luga]

https://mirrinminttu.livejournal.com/153640.html
This, of course, is not a source of in-depth knowledge, but, in my opinion, is a fairly clear illustration of how in England they relate to their history. And to York with Lancaster in particular.

[voyaka uh]

We do not seem to understand each other.
I meant that the British do not care who won
400 years ago (most of them are "for no one"), and not that they are not interested
the history of their country. Archaeological excavations are carried out there
very intense and full-bodied. Artifacts of time
King Arthur Roundtable, etc! The tombs of the semi-pagan kings,
semi-Christian times of the Roman Empire, etc.
In England there are many enthusiasts, "white" (official) treasure hunters.
I rested in Devon in the summer. Paleontologists go there regularly.
along the coast after storms (at low tide) - they look for the washed remains of dinosaurs,
fossils (do not dig). And rent the finds to museums!

[Luga]

Quote: voyaka uh

We do not seem to understand each other.

In the text on my link there is such a thing.

To begin with, the jester divided many hundreds of viewers into York and Lancaster. In 1412 year, yeah. By that time I was already guided enough by the terrain, so as not to be surprised that the “Yorkists” yelled violently “York! York!”, While the “Lancasterians” published something between “Buuuuu ...” and “Uuuuu ...” Nobody wants to be “for the Reds” in that area. Perhaps somewhere in Kent no one wants to be “for the whites,” I don’t know.

So in certain circles, among people who are fond of history, certain preferences are probably still present.
In general, if you look at the average layman, then of course you are right. But the average citizen is not interested in anything at all - neither history, nor geography, nor any other sciences. He is indifferent to any science and related issues, not just the Wars of the Roses.

[voyaka uh]

"But the average layman is not interested in anything at all" ///

The British are unusual people. We hit a storm on a punt
off the coast of Devonshire. Almost all passengers are deep retired British.
Start brutally swing. Rain is coming. Old men and old women fell from the benches, vomited, lost their wheelchairs.
I with a sailor-waiter picked them up and seated them back (sometimes several times). But no one went into the hold! Proudly "examined the coast" (although visibility is almost zero). None complained. In the end, they thanked the captain and crew for the "excellent walk."
I understood why they “rule Britain by the seas” for so many centuries ...

[Curious]

"I had a summer vacation in Devon."
Warrior, yes you are an aristocrat, do you prefer the English Riviera?

[voyaka uh]

Yes. Our summer is too hot, stuffy.
We rested in Normandy (on the other side of the canal). There nature is richer, more beautiful. And the restaurants are incomparably better. But it’s easy for the English with my tongue,
You can chat with people. The house is easy to remove. And - importantly - the British have a lot
Hiking trails - Walk for the whole day.

[Curious]

So you, warrior, also the original. You relax in the homeland of impressionism. Maupassant again loved to look there for inspiration. I suppose in Deauville prefer a house by the sea?

[voyaka uh]

Filmed in the village immediately after Honfleur. It is near Trouville. Beautiful places, ancient. Forests with blackberries ... What tides. Oh ...

[Curious]

So I almost guessed! Well this is practically one city on different banks of the river. What about local Calvados? Or do you prefer cider?

[voyaka uh]

I love Calvados, not siders. I even liked him
more than ordinary French cognacs sweetened with caramel.
But only in Normandy and drank it. Usually, I "sit" on average price adhesive tapes .

[avva2012]

Quote: voyaka uh The same applies to the Civil War. 100 years have passed - history.
Neither for the Reds nor for the Whites.

The difference is fundamental. The war of the white and the scarlet rose is, so to speak, the clash of vampire clans, and our Civil War is the fight against vampires as a species. Therefore, our confrontation will never stop. You can only choose the side.

[Morozov]

very cool approach to war history!

[avva2012]

Not all, but only civilians. Well, Lancaster and Yorkie slaughtered each other, and won alone. And others would have won, anyway, "the sheep would eat people."

[Mikado]

Doctor, I prefer the "civil war" on the site to look like this:

You know, I’m a pacifist, and I love art more than weapons.

[3x3zsave]

So this is what tulip fever looks like! Gently horse pushed!

[Mikado]

So this is what tulip fever looks like! laughing Gently horses pushed!

if the ancient Aztecs knew about the horse, then they would ride on a "flower battle"!

[avva2012]

On our site, you are a pacifist ? Maybe you don’t eat meat either?

[Mikado]

I eat meat. Maybe you still suspect me of something?
cooked buckwheat yesterday. I dream of doing everything merchantly, or according to the prescription of Viktor Nikolaevich.

[avva2012]

No, well, they themselves said ... Why should I suspect you? Especially, eat meat. Suspicions removed. Sinful, vegans make me dumb.

[Mikado]

Sinful, vegans make me dumb

yes, involuntarily immediately Hitler is remembered.

[3x3zsave]

Even bigger than urinotherapists?

[avva2012]

These, in general, are malicious malice. They would, as before, enuresis was treated .... and in the cold.

[3x3zsave]

Radical, you, however .... Can we get by with whipping at the stable?

[avva2012]

I can’t, with a snout, didn’t come out. As for the stable, this is to Prince O or the lieutenant.

[Dimmih]

There is no difference: Civil war is a war between the citizens of one country, waged as a rule with mutual bitterness. Brother against brother and son against father. It is necessary to negotiate, to negotiate. For the only beneficiaries of civil wars are those who benefit from the weakening of the state. Political revolution is bad, evolution is good. Civil war is unacceptable!

[avva2012]

There is a difference. The civil war between the ruling clans is one thing (the pans are fighting ....., the proverb did not appear after the revolution), but between a slave and a master or a worker and a master, this is different. Well, judge for yourself, brother to brother, how is it? In my opinion, just a hackneyed expression for the most part. The film, "Brother" remember. It’s closer to life.

[Dimmih]

This topic must be hushed up for a long time, some for the whites, and some for the reds. The essence of the matter is this: personally, some of my ancestors were dispossessed, and some were for the Reds. In our places, this is approximately the case with many. And how do you command me to resolve this? And those and those were quite decent people. And so, by and large, almost everyone in our country. People like you like to rock a boat and boil the primordial mass. The role of both of these is the same — they killed each other. The civil war has remained for historians, it is time to reconcile and live on, work for the future, and not arrange endless disputes who is better than Nicholas II, who allowed the great state to collapse or V. Ulyanov, who ruined it. If your ancestors were slaves, I sympathize, but mine were farmers, community peasants, plowed the land and consistently fought for the Motherland, whatever its name.

[avva2012]

Dimmih
V.O. Klyuchevsky, the landowners "turned their villages into slave-owning plantations, which are difficult to distinguish from North American plantations before the liberation of blacks." D. Blum "to the end of the XVIII century. the Russian serf was no different from the slave on the plantation. " So that both your ancestors, farmers and mine, were slaves. You may have read this book, perhaps about serfdom, you know more than me, but still: https://scisne.net/a-533?pg=6 Russia is serfdom. The history of national slavery B.Yu. Tarasov.

People like you like to rock a boat and boil the primordial mass.

This, I sympathize with you, because, you do not understand and do not recognize the obvious facts. You are now in the same position, unlike me. At least I understand and do not want to measure my position.

Nicholas II, who allowed to ruin the great state, or V. Ulyanov, who ruined it.

Listen, I understand when something like this was written in 1988 in The Twinkle, because pouring substance was a revelation for many, but I don’t understand how it can be written now. There is a lot of information about who, how and why tried to ruin Russia. Especially when there is something to compare. USSR and RF.

The civil war has remained for historians, it is time to reconcile and live on

Who to put up with? With people who sell their homeland? With people who disseminate information from bottomless sources of STS / CIA? With people who are not capable of analysis, synthesis, and generally full thinking, which as a result leads to the fact that they are manipulated as they want? How to find a common language with them? Yes, and why. It’s not possible to agree.

[Dimmih]

Klyuchevsky, as a source of information, is certainly out of date. Anyway. 1) Then answer the question, in what year did the peasants of the USSR begin to receive a passport in large numbers without which it was difficult to put it mildly in the USSR. Huh? That's the same. 1a) They talk a lot about free education in the USSR. To put it mildly, this was not always the case. Paid education was canceled by the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR "On the abolition of tuition fees in high schools of secondary schools, in secondary special and higher educational institutions of the USSR" only in 1956. 2) Do you deny that due to the Great October Socialist Revolution significant territories were lost, for example, Finland? 3) Make peace, my sir, with fellow citizens, what does the CIA have to do with it? I simply urge you to take a sober look at history and maintain a civilian world in society. For example: Admiral Kolchak is a famous oceanographer and traitor, V. Ulyanov is a no less famous Marxist and traitor. Do not beat the drums of the class struggle, but assume that someone is praying for a dried carcass in the mausoleum, while someone has a myrrh bust of Nicholas II. And both are partly right .... By the way, write "I do not want to measure." Make peace from the word Peace, not from the word Mer. Learn Russian, for he is great and powerful.

[avva2012]

Learn Russian, for he is great and powerful.

How, you got literary scholars! I am illiterate. Feel better, Measure?

1), 1a), 2), 3), and both are partly right ....

Please, I won’t bother you.

[Dimmih]

Yes, it’s you who got it, “How, you got it, literary critics! Laughing Illiterate, I. Easy, Measure?”. Master your native speech, and then talk about the vibrations of the Universe. They could not master the course of elementary school, but they take to judge the fate of the world. Laugh. They cannot distinguish the world from a measure, horror.

[avva2012]

Feel better? If not, then there is one more.

[Mikado]

Bravo, Doctor, bravo! Without at all getting into the essence of your dispute, and without giving estimates of who is right, who is to blame (dear Dimmih - did not at all want to offend you! ), Your answer captivates with originality!

[voyaka uh]

"Therefore, our confrontation will never stop" ////

Even as it stops. In a hundred years no one will know (or very vaguely)
who are white and red. And the invasions of Napoleon and Hitler will be confused by schoolchildren.
How Europeans confuse a centenary and a 30-year war.

[avva2012]

It seems that in the presence of WMD, after a hundred years, there will be nothing to remember and no one to remember.
You mentioned the 30 summer war, but how many Europe did you live without a war at all? The last two world massacres, who started and why? And about the surprise, in the presence of the USSR from 45 to 91, there were only a few local conflicts. It only cost civilized knights to remain without communist barbarians and, as an order ... Do you need to list democratized countries?
I doubt that you did not understand the idea, but still, I will explain it again. As long as there are those who earn and those who consume, the civil war does not stop. It is permanent between labor and capital. And without this war, capital will destroy all life simply by its nature. Market, competition, etc. unnatural and unnatural needs that accompany this system.

[voyaka uh]

"to remain without communist barbarians and," ////

I prefer - without them. Communis tical "resolved"
and with Islam we will understand.
This does not mean that you need to kill. Themselves fade over time - mass psychosis can be ignited, but it is impossible to maintain fire for a long time. People get tired of the "mobilization economies" and want to relax in their own private property .

[3x3zsave]

"There will be no war! But there will be such a struggle for peace that there will be no stone unturned!"

[kalibr]

Müller said it well in 17 moments - "The zealots get tired of themselves!"

[avva2012]

What a misfortune, nevertheless, there are suspicions that it is precisely Islamic groups that are banned in Russia that produce just the crown of democracy and the first economy in the world. Moreover, if the Soviet Union, the Arabs, it’s clear why she was nursing, then these are also understandable, but not for the triumph of freedom, equality and fraternity.
And with communism, you got excited. The denial of the capitalist system exists in it itself, as death in life.

[voyaka uh]

"What a misfortune, nevertheless, there are suspicions ..." /////

Persistent suspicions are called paranoia. It escalates during economic difficulties, when enemies and conspiracies appear everywhere.
And disappears when things get better

[avva2012]

Things will get better, and the deflection in the direction of the "big brother" may be counted.

[3x3zsave]

Something not noticeable fatigue in the neighbors of Israel.

[voyaka uh]

Noticeably noticeable. In the 60-70s they were "more cheerful." Now they wave more fists than fight. The economy and industry always steers.

[avva2012]

It’s with them, now it’s up to their neck in the same Syria. Once they are free, we will see if the economy steers or not. Although, sincerely, I wish the people of Israel peace and quiet.

[voyaka uh]

"whether the economy steers or not" ////

Ai-ya-yay! Karl Marx would scold you as a schoolboy for such
doubt ...
and thanks for the wishes! I wish Russia to develop industry and improve living standards. The rest will follow.

[avva2012]

We are all in the same boat. And what will sprinkle, if anything, is also the same color. The only difference is who is the sand and who is the snow. And the economy, yes, the main thing. But whoever has it fatter is the one who crushes everyone around (there are no contradictions with K. Marx?) And these are not Arabs, however.

[3x3zsave]

You probably know better from there. On the other hand, if all the special services worked like the Israeli ones according to Black September, we would not know such a word - "Islamism."

[3x3zsave]

Well, that’s how to say .... 150 years have passed since the civil war in the USA, but no, butting again.

[Weyland]

Quote: voyaka uh

100 years have passed - history.

how to say ... 100 years is still not a term, beautiful ruled until the 91st, and the older generation remembers the charms of their regime! In England, since the time of the “War of the Roses” how many dynasties have changed? Tudors, Stuarts, Oran, Windsor

[albert]

Quote: voyaka uh

The same applies to the Civil War. 100 years have passed - history.

It’s ridiculous to compare the feudal showdowns with our Civil War. And for fun, if you ask an American who he is for the Dixie or the Yankees, what will he answer?

[3x3zsave]

And it depends on what state to ask, in Utah, you can rake in for just one question.

[Mikado]

And it depends on what state to ask, in Utah, you can rake in for just one question.

Whose will they be?

[3x3zsave]

And draws, Mormons are harsh guys

[Mikado]

and, well, these, yes, any bend. Severe polygamists, damn it.

[3x3zsave]

I have a suspicion that Heinlein, in his latest works, drew images of family relations in this particular subculture.

[Mikado]

I have a suspicion that Heinlein, in his latest works, drew images of family relations in this particular subculture.

I had enough news today on Vesti that two of their Mormon "preachers" were trying to marry each other's daughters, despite the fact that the girls were not even ten. It seems that the police arrived in time, and thank God.
At the word "Mormon" I immediately recall Karachentsov from "Sherlock Holmes", and how he honestly dealt with them.

[3x3zsave]

Now it is 100% pedophilia. Even 50 years ago, such an act had a completely different meaning.

[soldier]

The English aristocracy is a great lover of breaking the laws and customs of the war of those years
Where it is seen - to kill captive noblemen (Agencourt)
And raise your hand to the king (Bosworth).
I paid for it ...
Thanks to the author for showing the worthlessness of the civil wars and their death for everyone and everything.
But beautiful ...

[Dimmih]

There are some dark moments in the article .... I read at one time on the topic of Richard the Third article. Alas, I do not remember where. The following moments were reflected there: 1) Richard's nephews were removed from the throne due to illegitimate births. It was found that their father marrying their mother was married to another woman and did not bother to get a divorce. There is no smell of magic here, the usual household gouging. 2) The skeletons of two boys were found in the Tower, and judging by the data available at that time, the boys were killed after the death of Richard the Third. It may well be that the nephews were in good health and were killed by the Tudors. 3) the topic of feeding cattle from a coffin is already refuted above. The grave was lost, found and Richard was reburied. Correct me if I'm wrong or Svetlana if she wrote a gag.

[Weyland]

Quote: Dimmih

It may well be that the nephews were in good health and were killed by the Tudors.

This is exactly how it was - already in the 21st century, banal palace financial documentation was found that testified that money was allocated for the maintenance of unfortunate princes ... another year after the death of Richard III

[3x3zsave]

Something too many documents have already been found in the 21st century. Fomenko, Klesov, the Great Wends - all are based on documents found in the 21st century. "An accident? - I don't think so!"

[Dimmih]

This is a conspiracy of the Vatican agents and the Masons.

[seti]

Quote: parusnik

The young sons of Edward all this time were in the Tower. But they soon disappeared. It was rumored that by order of Richard the children were strangled with pillows.

... A dark story ... The version that the princes were killed by order of Richard III was proposed by W. Shakespeare in his tragedy "Richard III", and who read, Richard in this play is portrayed simply as a monster ... Otherwise it was impossible since it was written during the Tudor era ...

I completely agree. The story is dark, but if we compare the documents that have arrived and the actions of interested parties, the veil is lifted. The killing of the princes was beneficial primarily to Heinrich Tudor but not Richard at all. Otherwise, why keep their sisters alive - kill them and Henry would lose his binding claim to the throne. There are no documents directly or indirectly blaming exactly Richard 3 of Gloucester.

[parusnik]

[b

] There are no documents directly or indirectly accusing Richard 3 of Gloucester.

[/b.BIZ... Absolutely true .... In addition, there is not even any indirect evidence .. Some historians believe that the commandant was a secret supporter of the Tudors .. What you wrote in your comment, I was too lazy to write. .. limited to small ....

[Luga]

Quote: seti

The killing of the princes was beneficial primarily to Heinrich Tudor but not Richard at all.

Of course it is. I will say more - to anyone, but not to Richard. The liquidation of the representatives of the York dynasty paved the way for the Tudor, Richard understood this perfectly. In the meantime, the children are alive - they stand between him and the Tudor like a shield. Moreover, having control over the children, Richard could dictate certain conditions to the dowager queen, and through her to the entire Woodville clan. For him, the Tower Princes were, to a certain extent, the guarantors of security, hostages. I understand that when Tewkesbury killed Prince Edward, who, being in France, was, as it were, the guarantor of the safety of his father Henry VI, Henry's life was immediately cut short - as unnecessary. But while Edward was out of reach of Henry, no one attempted - he lived quietly in the Tower, prayed, and did not bother anyone except his wife and son. If he and his son died, they would have been given seniority in the family - the Yorks understood this, so they did not touch him. The princes have the same story. Why clear the way for applicants?

[Weyland]

Quote: seti

There are no documents directly or indirectly accusing Richard 3 of Gloucester.

but already in the 21st century, banal palace financial documentation was found that testified that money was allocated for the maintenance of unfortunate princes ... another year after the death of Richard III

[Mikado]

3x3zsave,

That is, Aboriginal organisms themselves do well with authentic parasites and treat them - only spoil it?

they compensate for this with a birth rate.

[3x3zsave]

Mikado,
Scott (again, this rare surname!) Is also "stuck" because of the "solder"

[Mikado]

Yes, he generally was a kamikaze, forgive me, Lord. Hero, but ...

[Some kind of compote]

Most of all the children feel sorry
So they perished in the Tower
Excellent!

[3x3zsave]

Do you feel sorry for Vytautas’s children? Meanwhile, if they survived, history could have taken a different path. Our history, the Russian state! Alas, the subjunctive mood ...

[Weyland]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Do you feel sorry for Vytautas’s children?

Krmu? Well, if Vitovt himself didn’t feel sorry for them ... The same Senkevich “modestly” kept silent about the fact that Vitovt deliberately sacrificed them - having entered into an alliance with the crusaders and giving the children to the crusaders hostage - and then treacherously attacking yesterday’s allies!

[3x3zsave]

Senkevich modestly kept silent about a lot of things. Do you, in your opinion, focus on his literary heritage?

[Mamka pula]

It is better to give roses
Scarlet and white combine

[3x3zsave]

They don’t combine! No normal florist will collect such a composition!

[Mamka pula]

Swam, we know))

[kalibr]

Quote: avva2012

And with communism, you got excited. The denial of the capitalist system exists in it itself, as death in life.

It has long been decaying, the USSR has already collapsed, but it is decaying and decaying ...

[3x3zsave]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, well, don’t start, huh? Moreover, the Doctor is already sleeping! After all, he pushed, pushed all day ...., did not grow together, and here you are! So everything was quiet: Yorkie, Lancaster, Shakespeare, helminths ....

[Mikado]

yes, the latter was generally gorgeous. Pay attention, competently, in the subject and relying on sources!

[avva2012]

After all, he pushed all day, pushed .... did not grow together

Anton, didn’t you like my comments about parasites?

[3x3zsave]

What are you, Alexander! About parasites was enchanting, informative and popular !!! They have no socio-political coloring. And the consequences of their life - and even more so!
"" Both the poor and the rich
We are equally needed "-
Said the pathologist
And wiped the scalpel on his pants "
(I. Huberman)
I'm talking about yours with V.O. favorite game, all day you scattered the bait, but he did not fall for it. And here in the evening, oppanki!

[avva2012]

Anton, well, right, I understand that VO has a certain attitude towards his own person, but take my word for it, I have a slightly different one. Alas, it does not occupy the same significant place in my mind. And this time, it was interesting to "talk" about communism with a person whose nationality is tightly soldered, by some especially gifted individuals, with this ideology, and even, they use it in letters only through a hyphen, and nothing else.

[3x3zsave]

I tried to make a joke ... And meanwhile, my tablet charger burned out on the 5th, while Venus was spread Well, well, it’s quite possible that on the Israeli domain the filter is based on some political terms (by the way, if possible, I’ll check it out). There we have on topvar term denoting sexual relations extinct, is it like, paranoia?

[avva2012]

I, too, trying as much as I can, joke I sympathize with the charger, I hope they found another. Paranoia, like sexual relations should be, I'm sure of it. But at the VO, taking into account the contingent (mainly male), they, i.e., relations, are moderated by the moderator, as a mat. I absolutely agree with him. How else?

[3x3zsave]

In my opinion, sexual relations are relations between the sexes (here, fortunately, the Russian language does not allow other interpretations), the rest is sodomy!

[avva2012]

That, yes, but we are not moderators. They have no time to understand, I think so. Since the discussion was between men over the floor, it’s better to immediately moderate, otherwise it’s not enough.

[3x3zsave]

They do not understand, once, someone very smart, set the filter settings and that's it.

[avva2012]

Oh, such a filter would put some in the brain How much use would be! Abolished the logic in schools, infection!

[kalibr]

If a person really wants something, he needs to be given it! And then he will be upset! I also waited, waited ... did not want to deceive expectations!

[3x3zsave]

Thank God, nothing happened! And then you begin to wave his sabers with him, that's all! Come on in life! I have all the devices hanging, the page is not loading.

[avva2012]

They forgot about 91. Not good, s, out of the standard. So one time you miss something, then the second, and there is not far from the paradigm shift. Moreover, the elections loom.

[Weyland]

The young sons of Edward all this time were in the Tower. But they soon disappeared. It was rumored that by order of Richard the children were strangled with pillows.
And it was only in the 21st century that banal palace financial documentation was found testifying that money was allocated for the maintenance of unfortunate princes ... another whole year after the death of Richard III! If the princes' rights to the throne were doubtful, then the rights of their son-in-law - Henry VII - were completely null and void. So it’s easy to guess who picked them - and blamed Richard for dead ...

[Looking for]

Quote: Luga

These are two errors that caught my eye right away, both of which can only be explained by the fact that the author has poor knowledge of the material and did not bother to study even Russian-language sources on the topic.

we know your sources. And as they say, SOURCES !!!. Or maybe it's easier, the Wikipedia article.

[Curious]

avva2012,
Grandfather told him about gangrene, which he picked out fragments of crushed bone from the wound and made longitudinal cuts. That, said, is all I can. The drumstick looked awesome. And the wound finally healed in 1953, thanks to penicillin.

[avva2012]

Well, my grandfather knew better on the spot. And a deep bow to your front-line father.

[Curious]

Yes, he was not a war veteran. After school for organizational recruitment in 1940, he entered the defense enterprise. The last workshops were evacuated already under bombs and shelling. He told me that he remembered only the bright light and the flight somewhere. And he woke up already on the cart.
Another interesting point to remember. He said that on June 22 the whole team wrote statements - volunteers to the front. They answered everyone that they should not fuss, a defense enterprise - Everything is considered at the front. And two weeks later they sent them to the train. station unload the wounded. After that, a lot of people got over to the front.

[avva2012]

Front-line worker. It was impossible to imagine how people lived then. Stories are not something until you find yourself in a similar situation. Who, like victory brought closer of those who did it, of course. But the bow remains. Both the battle wound and life lived with dignity. Thanks to all of them.

[Curious]

Here I agree with you. As they say - they endured the unbearable. And no one considered himself a hero. Everything seems to be as it should be. And today, many strive to spit at that time. Something in people broke, or what?

[avva2012]

I don’t know if it’s broken or not, but Time will not leave this unanswered. There are things that absolutely can not be done. The person believes in something or not, infinity is violet. Crossed the line, get and sign.

[3x3zsave]

In general, I am amazed at the persistence and vitality of this generation! I constantly compare myself with my grandfather. 3 wars, 9 children (this is only from the second marriage), he also died in 72 not by his death. I also got it, but this is a minuscule compared to it!

[3x3zsave]

avva2012,
My dear is trying to somehow promote this subject. I even wrote a training manual, fortunately, the place of work suggests and even welcomes such activities.

[avva2012]

I don’t even know, but I think that with dear, you are lucky! At the very weakness for smart women

[3x3zsave]

This is not luck, I’ve been going to her for 15 years

[avva2012]

Though write a novel, called. But, this is so cool! I accidentally found