Military Review

Who shot Polish officers at Katyn?

311
Investigation of all the circumstances of the massacre of Polish soldiers, included in history as the “Katynsky shooting”, still provokes heated debates in Russia and in Poland. According to the “official” modern version, the murder of Polish officers is the work of the NKVD of the USSR. However, back in 1943 — 1944. A special commission headed by N. Burdenko, the chief surgeon of the Red Army, concluded that the Nazis had killed the Polish military. Despite the fact that the current Russian leadership agreed with the version of the “Soviet trace”, there really were a lot of contradictions and ambiguities in the case of the massacre of Polish officers. To understand who could shoot the Polish soldiers, it is necessary to take a closer look at the very process of investigating the Katyn massacre.


Who shot Polish officers at Katyn?


In March, 1942, residents of the village Kozi Gory, in the Smolensk region, informed the occupying authorities about the place of mass graves of Polish soldiers. The Poles who worked in the construction platoon unearthed several graves and reported this to the German commanders, but it initially related to news with complete indifference. The situation changed in 1943, when a turnaround had already taken place at the front and Germany was interested in increasing anti-Soviet propaganda. 18 February 1943, the German field police have begun excavations in the Katyn Forest. A special commission was formed, headed by Breslau University professor Gerhardt Butz - the “light” of the forensic medical examination, who served in the rank of captain as head of the forensic laboratory of the Army Group Center. Already 13 on April 1943 of the year German radio reported on the found burial place of 10 thousands of Polish officers. In fact, the German investigators “figured out” the number of Poles who had rest in the Katyn forest, very simply - they took the total number of officers of the Polish army before the outbreak of the war, from which Anders ’military personnel were deducted. All the other Polish officers, according to the German side, were shot by the NKVD in the Katyn Forest. Naturally, it didn’t do without the inherent anti-Semitism of the Nazis - the German media immediately reported that Jews were involved in the executions.

16 April 1943, the Soviet Union officially denied the "slanderous attacks" of Hitler's Germany. April 17 for clarification to the Soviet government asked the Polish government in exile. It is interesting that at that time the Polish leadership did not try to blame the Soviet Union for everything, but focused on the crimes of Nazi Germany against the Polish people. However, the USSR broke off relations with the Polish government in exile.

Joseph Goebbels, the “propagandist number one” of the Third Reich, managed to achieve even greater effect than he originally intended. The Katyn massacre was issued by German propaganda for the classic manifestation of the "atrocities of the Bolsheviks." Obviously, the Nazis, accusing the Soviet side of the murder of Polish prisoners of war, sought to discredit the Soviet Union in the eyes of Western countries. The brutal execution of Polish prisoners of war, allegedly carried out by Soviet Chekists, should, according to the Nazis, alienate the United States, Britain and the Polish government in exile from cooperation with Moscow. Last Goebbels succeeded - in Poland, the version about the execution of Polish officers by the Soviet NKVD was accepted by very many. The fact is that even in 1940, the correspondence with the Polish prisoners of war in the territory of the Soviet Union stopped. Nothing more was known about the fate of the Polish officers. At the same time, representatives of the United States and Great Britain tried to “hush up” the Polish topic, because they did not want to irritate Stalin at such a crucial time when Soviet troops were able to turn the tide at the front.



To ensure a larger propaganda effect, the Nazis even brought in the investigation the Polish Red Cross (PAC), whose representatives were associated with anti-fascist resistance. From the Polish side, the commission was headed by Marian Vodzinsky - a physician from the University of Krakow, a reputable person and participating in the activities of the Polish anti-fascist resistance. The Nazis even went so far as to allow the representatives of the PAC to the place of the alleged shooting, where the excavations of graves took place. The findings of the commission were disappointing - the PAC confirmed the German version that Polish officers were shot in April-May 1940, that is, before the start of the war between Germany and the Soviet Union.



28-30 April 1943, an international commission arrived in Katyn. Of course, it was a very loud name - in fact, the commission was formed from representatives of the states occupied by Hitler's Germany or who maintained allied relations with it. As was to be expected, the commission took the side of Berlin and also confirmed that Polish officers were killed in the spring of 1940 by Soviet Chekists. Further investigative actions of the German side, however, were discontinued - in September 1943, the Red Army liberated Smolensk. Almost immediately after the liberation of the Smolensk region, the Soviet leadership decided that it was necessary to conduct its own investigation - in order to expose Hitler’s slander about the involvement of the Soviet Union in the massacre of Polish officers.

October 5 The 1943 Special Commission was established by the NKVD and the NKGB under the leadership of the People’s Commissar of State Security Vsevolod Merkulov and Deputy People’s Commissar of the Interior Sergey Kruglov. Unlike the German commission, the Soviet commission approached the matter more thoroughly, including the organization of the interrogation of witnesses. An 95 person was interviewed. As a result, interesting details emerged. Even before the start of the war, three camps for Polish prisoners of war were deployed to the west of Smolensk. They housed officers and generals of the Polish Army, gendarmes, policemen, and officers captured in Poland. Most of the prisoners of war were used in road works of varying degrees of severity. When the war began, the Soviet authorities did not have time to evacuate Polish prisoners of war from the camps. So the Polish officers were already in German captivity, and the Germans continued to use the labor of prisoners of war in road and construction work.

In August - September 1941, the German command decided to shoot all Polish prisoners of war held in Smolensk camps. The actual execution of Polish officers was carried out by the headquarters of the 537 Construction Battalion under the leadership of Lieutenant Arnes, Chief Lieutenant Rext and Lieutenant Hotta. The headquarters of this battalion was located in the village of Kozi Hory. In the spring of 1943, when provocation against the Soviet Union was already being prepared, the Nazis forced the Soviet prisoners of war to dig the graves and, after the excavations, removed all documents from the graves, dating back to the time after the spring of 1940. So the date of the alleged execution of Polish prisoners of war was “fitted”. The Germans shot the Soviet prisoners of war who carried out the excavations and forced the local residents to give evidence to the Germans.

12 January 1944 was formed a special commission to establish and investigate the circumstances of the execution by the fascist German invaders in the Katyn forest (near Smolensk) Polish officer prisoners of war. This commission was headed by the chief surgeon of the Red Army, Lieutenant-General Medical Service Nikolai Nilovich Burdenko, and included a number of prominent Soviet scientists. Interestingly, the commission included writer Alexei Tolstoy and Metropolitan of Kiev and Galitsky Nikolay (Yarushevich). Although public opinion in the West by this time was already quite biased, nevertheless, an episode with the shooting of Polish officers in Katyn entered the indictment of the Nuremberg Tribunal. That is, the responsibility of Hitler's Germany for the commission of this crime was actually recognized.

For many decades, the Katyn shooting was forgotten, however, when at the end of the 1980s. began the systematic "loosening" of the Soviet state, the history of the Katyn massacre was again "refreshed" by human rights activists and journalists, and then by the Polish leadership. In 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev actually recognized the responsibility of the Soviet Union for the Katyn shooting. Since that time, and now for almost thirty years, the version that Polish officers have been shot by the NKVD officers of the USSR has become the dominant version. Even the “patriotic turn” of the Russian state in the 2000s did not affect the changing situation. Russia continues to "repent" for the crime committed by the Nazis, and Poland puts forward more and more stringent requirements for the recognition of the Katyn massacre as genocide.

In the meantime, many domestic historians and experts present their views on the Katyn tragedy. So, Elena Prudnikova and Ivan Chigirin in the book “Katyn. A lie that has become history ”, draws attention to very interesting nuances. For example, all the corpses found in the tombs at Katyn were dressed in Polish uniforms with insignia. But until 1941, Soviet prisoners of war camps were not allowed to wear insignia. All prisoners were equal in status and could not wear cockades and epaulets. It turns out that to be with signs of distinction at the time of death, if they were really shot in 1940, Polish officers simply could not. Since the Soviet Union did not sign the Geneva Convention for a long time, the maintenance of prisoners of war with preservation of insignia in the Soviet camps was not allowed. Apparently, the Nazis did not consider this interesting moment and themselves contributed to exposing their lies - Polish prisoners of war were shot after the 1941 year, but then Smolensk was occupied by the Nazis. This circumstance, referring to the work of Prudnikova and Chigirin, is indicated in one of his publications by Anatoly Wasserman.

Private detective Ernest Aslanyan draws attention to a very interesting detail - Polish prisoners of war were killed from a gunshot weaponsproduced in Germany. The NKVD of the USSR did not use such weapons. Even if there were copies of German weapons at the disposal of the Soviet Chekists, it was by no means in the quantity used in Katyn. However, this circumstance is for some reason not considered by supporters of the version that Polish officers were killed by the Soviet side. More precisely, this question, of course, was raised in the media, but the answers to it were given some unintelligible, - said Aslanian.

The version on the use of German weapons in 1940 in order to “write off” the corpses of Polish officers on the Nazis really seems very strange. The Soviet leadership hardly expected that Germany would not only start a war, but also be able to reach Smolensk. Accordingly, there was no reason to “substitute” the Germans by shooting Polish prisoners of war with German weapons. Another version seems to be more plausible - the shooting of Polish officers in the camps of the Smolensk region was indeed carried out, but not at all on the scale mentioned by Hitler's propaganda. In the Soviet Union there were many camps where Polish prisoners of war were kept, but nowhere else were mass executions carried out. What could have forced the Soviet command to arrange the execution of 12 of thousands of Polish prisoners of war precisely in the Smolensk region? The answer to this question is impossible to give. Meanwhile, the Nazis themselves could completely destroy the Polish prisoners of war - they did not feel any reverence for the Poles, did not differ in humanism in relation to prisoners of war, especially to the Slavs. Destroying several thousand Poles for the Hitlerite executioners was not a problem at all.

However, the version about the murder of Polish officers by the Soviet Chekists is very convenient in the current situation. For the West, the reception of Goebbels propaganda is a wonderful way to once again “prick” Russia, to blame Moscow for war crimes. For Poland and the Baltic countries, this version is another tool of anti-Russian propaganda and a way to get more generous funding from the United States and the European Union. As for the Russian leadership, his agreement with the version of the shooting of the Poles by order of the Soviet government is explained, apparently, by purely opportunistic considerations. As “our answer to Warsaw,” we could raise the topic of the fate of Soviet prisoners of war in Poland, of which there were more than 1920 thousands of people in 40. However, no one deals with this issue.

A genuine, objective investigation of all the circumstances of the Katyn massacre is still waiting in the wings. It remains to hope that it will completely expose the monstrous slander against the Soviet country and confirm that the Nazis were the real executioners of Polish prisoners of war.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. Vend
      Vend 30 November 2017 09: 07 New
      14
      Quote: 210ox
      I already wrote about this. They will not actually massively shoot “Stalin’s lines” at the secret facility-ZKP and opposite the place where the NKV themselves rest. The Borok health resort .. The sanatorium is old, it functioned there before the war. Smolensk is my small homeland, I just know what I'm talking about ..

      I once read that at the place of execution, shells from German weapons were found. The NKVD at that time was firmly on its feet and did not need provocations in the direction of Germany.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Tatyana
          Tatyana 30 November 2017 13: 22 New
          25
          I read the book by Elena Prudnikova and Ivan Chigirin “Katyn. A lie that has become history. ” This is a very detailed account of the Katyn case. It examines in detail all versions and the reliability and unreliability of evidence on both sides.
          The author of the article, of course, could not cover everything related to the exhumation of the burial and the results of the investigation of Polish officers shot by Germans near Smolensk. It’s better to read this book - everything in it is set out in detail with documented guilt of the Nazis in the execution of these Polish officers.
          I consider the following the most disgusting.
          When Smolensk was liberated by the Red Army, fierce battles were fought near Smolensk and field hospitals of the Soviet troops were in these places, therefore, Soviet soldiers and officers who died in battle and died from wounds were buried in the same places as the executed Poles. However, due to the erection of the Katyn Memorial near Smolensk, the corpses of the dead Soviet soldiers and officers do not allow either the same Poles and our Russian authorities to exhume and adequately rebury, nor even erect a memorial plaque there!
          Firstly, this is unfair to the fallen Soviet soldiers during the Second World War!
          Secondly, this is a betrayal of the Russian liberal authorities and everyone involved in this in favor of a foreign state!
          Why are the Poles against? Because the excavations of the Germans, together with the Poles, were not only incomplete throughout the territory and all the graves, but also had a clearly fake provocative character. Full excavations will refute the version of the Poles with its far-reaching political consequences against Russia.

          Myths of Copper (Copper. The lie that has become history.) Published: 25 Jul. 2015

          In the Tver region, 30 kilometers from Tver there is a memorial complex "Copper". The visitors of Medny are assured that the remains of more than six thousand Polish prisoners of war, shot by the USSR authorities in the spring of the 1940 in Kalinin, rest in this place. There is a similar memorial in the Smolensk region (Katyn). The authors of the film consider this version of MYTH. The film collected evidence that the mass executions of the Poles in the 1940 year by the USSR authorities were not. The film published data on the fate of Polish prisoners of war after the 1940 year.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 30 November 2017 13: 29 New
            14
            "Secondly, this is a betrayal of the Russian liberal authorities and everyone involved in this in favor of a foreign state!"
            Why, secondly, is Tatyana? There would be no second, the first would not have happened.
            1. Tatyana
              Tatyana 30 November 2017 14: 08 New
              17
              About treason against the current liberal authorities of the USSR / RF - this is generally a special conversation! I will say more that such high treason of the Russian authorities in favor of a foreign state does not leave the Russians hope that we will win TMV!

              Victor Ilyukhin The truth about Katyn! Published: February 3 2014


              Brzezinski was right when he spoke several years ago about the belonging of the Russian elite to the Collective West!
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 30 November 2017 15: 00 New
                13
                They are simply all bourgeois. One ideology, one priority. Class one. And therefore, it seems, they do not betray class interests. Well, and homeland? I think, further, it is possible not to continue.
                1. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 30 November 2017 15: 17 New
                  14
                  This is called the "capitalist international"! There is a "proletarian international", and there is also a "capitalist international". Only in the capitalist international is the unity of the exploiters for the time being, for the strongest parasite devours the strong, and the strong parasite weak - to the complete Absolute!
                  After “the Moor has done his job - the Moor must leave!”, The global financiers of the US Federal Reserve in the West will rob and completely leave them literally poor, like Russian oligarchs and market idiots, among globalists no legs were lying around! With them, everything will be over - they will take all the property stolen in Russia from the full program!
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 30 November 2017 15: 44 New
                    +4
                    Yes, I thought their instinct for self-preservation would work for them. Alas. The smell of money is stronger.
                  2. japs
                    japs 30 November 2017 21: 41 New
                    10
                    Tatyana, you express the thoughts of old man K. Marx. The nouveaux riches in the Russian Federation know this, but they hope that the capitalists in the West will accept them in their ranks. Naive simpletons, in England their "expropriation" has long been preparing. The financial bigwigs in Matrassia will do the same. What is Abramovich with the pathetic 10 billion dead raccoons? Compared to the Rothschilds, a beggar boy!
                2. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 30 November 2017 15: 33 New
                  +8
                  Quote: avva2012
                  They are simply all bourgeois. One ideology, one priority. Class one. And therefore, it seems, they do not betray class interests.

                  No, of course, only they had intra-class contradictions. Lenin set forth everything about this clearly and clearly in the so-called Philosophical Notebooks, and Comrade Stalin deepened and quipped! good
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 30 November 2017 15: 46 New
                    +2
                    Here, you think, what before, did not read, you dunce.
                    1. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 30 November 2017 16: 21 New
                      +7
                      Eh, youth .., youth .. We all listened poorly, and rewritten notes ...
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 30 November 2017 16: 44 New
                        +8
                        Synopsis of hairbrush, yes! laughing I would know then that I myself, of my own free will, would read and be amazed that the truth was said, Lenin, a genius!
                3. Ragoz
                  Ragoz 30 November 2017 23: 33 New
                  +5
                  AVVA:
                  Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and Putin alternately repented in the Katyn affair. Why not at the same time repent for the 20 thousand Red Army soldiers who died in Polish camps in 1920. and for hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers who died for the liberation of the great-power pansky Poland, and indeed for the existence of RUSSIA as a great country.
                  1. tv70
                    tv70 1 December 2017 01: 28 New
                    +3
                    So who is the Novy Urengoy boy ...
                  2. avva2012
                    avva2012 1 December 2017 03: 28 New
                    0
                    Quote: Ragoz Why not at the same time repent
                    They repent, or else there will be. Claw bogged down ....
            2. figwam
              figwam 30 November 2017 17: 47 New
              +8
              There was a program about Mednoye, and so the search engines who were excavating the remains, even before the memorial was installed, said that there were no Poles there, and our soldiers were lying dead from wounds brought from nearby lying front-line hospitals.
              1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Konstantin Yu
            Konstantin Yu 1 December 2017 15: 53 New
            +1
            Add "Kotynskaya meanness" or who are the Poles.
            https://youtu.be/nK3fmBh4uzQ?t=3
            https://youtu.be/nK3fmBh4uzQ
          3. Train
            Train 1 December 2017 18: 03 New
            0
            but Putin repented in Poland - beaten petition? -Sorry, they say ... Our flopped Poles-OUR- and the right decision at that time was
      2. Konstantin Yu
        Konstantin Yu 1 December 2017 16: 08 New
        +2
        On this topic "Kotynsky meannessb "
        https://youtu.be/nK3fmBh4uzQ
      3. Vladimir K.
        Vladimir K. 3 December 2017 09: 32 New
        +2
        What are the liners? Bullets extracted from bodies can also be identified fairly accurately by identifying where they were produced and from which weapons they were fired.
    2. skullcap
      skullcap 30 November 2017 22: 58 New
      +7
      And I just wrote a comment to the article "It's time for Moscow to recall its own bloody bill to Warsaw." Must repeat.
      I was at the time in the State Duma Viktor Ilyukhin, who said that these documents were fabricated on the personal orders of Yeltsin. And that he knows a person who was forced to participate in the execution of this order and this person is ready to come and expose in the State Duma.
      However, the State Duma did not go for it, and by some strange coincidence Viktor Ilyukhin quietly died, but quickly.
      Nobody raised this question anymore.
    3. militarist63
      militarist63 6 February 2020 01: 34 New
      0
      Absolutely. good
  2. avva2012
    avva2012 30 November 2017 06: 32 New
    27
    One of the many anti-Soviet tales aimed at discrediting the country. An interesting detail, the USSR is no longer there, and anti-Soviet propaganda continues to be actively used against the Russian Federation. A note for all non-Polzovites, anti-adviser, always Russophobe, without exception.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 30 November 2017 08: 13 New
      10
      However, no one deals with this issue.

      OLYMPIAD GIVES BABLO, THIS QUESTION IS NO
      Katyn Kozak and Shuvalov are not needed
    2. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 30 November 2017 11: 21 New
      10
      Quote: avva2012
      One of the many anti-Soviet tales aimed at discrediting the country. An interesting detail, the USSR is no longer there, and anti-Soviet propaganda continues to be actively used against the Russian Federation. A note for all non-Polzovites, anti-adviser, always Russophobe, without exception.

      One question remains, why did the country's top leadership in the person of the president and prime minister begin to "repent" for Katyn, for what the USSR had never done.
      After all, this lady was shocked from a high rostrum with a fake document and Vladimir Vladimirovich noted, but why, this is a big question ..
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 30 November 2017 11: 30 New
        21
        One question remains, why the country's top leadership in the person of the president and prime minister ...

        Yes, that’s not even a question. Our president is the head of the bourgeois state. What the classics of Marxism wrote can be carried over to modern times without any cuts. Most importantly: "Social being determines social consciousness." It is not he, not DAM, not another member of our leadership, they can not do otherwise, no matter how wonderful they are in life.
      2. RUSS
        RUSS 30 November 2017 16: 07 New
        +2
        Quote: Stroporez
        Quote: avva2012
        One of the many anti-Soviet tales aimed at discrediting the country. An interesting detail, the USSR is no longer there, and anti-Soviet propaganda continues to be actively used against the Russian Federation. A note for all non-Polzovites, anti-adviser, always Russophobe, without exception.

        One question remains, why did the country's top leadership in the person of the president and prime minister begin to "repent" for Katyn, for what the USSR had never done.
        After all, this lady was shocked from a high rostrum with a fake document and Vladimir Vladimirovich noted, but why, this is a big question ..

        The GDP has access to all archives and to all information, do you really believe that Putin is lying from the rostrum?
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 30 November 2017 16: 18 New
          15
          No, of course, a politician, not the profession to lie.
        2. Ragoz
          Ragoz 1 December 2017 00: 16 New
          +3
          Russ:
          According to these videos, one can say that Putin is not so much the president, but much like the Russophobes.
        3. Lev Bronsch
          Lev Bronsch 18 December 2017 17: 43 New
          0
          God, do you apparently believe in Santa Claus ?? Or maybe you are 8 years old and your mom leaves the computer unattended ?? More versions?
          Like any politician in any state, the president of the Russian Federation resorts to lies, both domestic political and geopolitical. It is everywhere on the globe like that. It’s better for you not to hear this disgrace. laughing .
          Another question is the measure of this lie, what goals are behind this lie and what visible or long-term consequences this lie leads to. Therefore, a truly wise leader will never begin to lie globally, humiliating the country and people, for the sake of momentary and not so big profit, no matter how much money is needed! Because then, after 20-30 years, the descendants will have to pay on such bills that the very existence of the country, the people will be called into question. And they will refer to these confessions - the recognition of the queen of evidence! Think only with us ??
          And not the topic - the president constantly mentions the "fraternal Ukrainian people" ... There are no fraternal peoples, from the word in general! And even more so the people, whose national identity is expressed - "get a view of Moscow", or "anyhow not a Muscovite." Not only is the lack of understanding of such simple things angry, emotionally, but angry, even for those Ukrainians who agree to live very well next door to us. Yes, there are few of them in Ukraine, but they are, occasionally their voices are heard, but how can they reach the rag of the head when the president of the neighboring country simply destroys all the propaganda for them! Making things worse in the first place for Russia, because right after the words about the "brotherly people" Svidomo biomass explodes emotionally - we said, he doesn’t put us in a penny !! This is not to say about friendly people. good-neighborly people, let's live together, etc. Well, for example, Mongolia will say - fraternal Russian people. What side am I to the Mongol brother ?? Neighbor, yes, good neighbor, ready to help, yes. But brother ?? I just have such harsh emotions as Ukrainians will not have, but I will be surprised for sure!
    3. verner1967
      verner1967 1 December 2017 14: 04 New
      0
      Quote: avva2012
      anti-adviser, always Russophobe, without exception

      Rave! Unfortunately, the Soviets just appeared in Russia, so it turns out that the foreign anti-Soviet are Russophobes. Russian emigration, all anti-Soviet, but as soon as Hitler attacked Russia, they forgot about their political ambitions and sided with the USSR in this war. Not so much for advice, but against the enemy of Russia. What are they russophobes?
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 1 December 2017 18: 24 New
        +3
        Russian emigration, all anti-Soviet, but as soon as Hitler attacked Russia, they forgot about their political ambitions and sided with the USSR in this war.

        Everything? Even without really bothering, you can read a lot on the Internet on the topic: "Russian emigration in the service of Hitler." Starting from the Russian Security Corps in Yugoslavia, about: 12-13 thousand people and further, the same ROVS: “I’ll be happy to cooperate with the state, which is interested in overthrowing the Soviet power and forming a nationwide government in Russia” {{Cit. by: Shkarenkov L.K. Decree. Op. - S. 123.}} The thesis that Hitler fights with the enemies of Russia in the name of her liberation is present in personal appeals to the emigrant public, Major General V.V. Biskupsky {{Maritime Journal. - July 1941. - No. 145 (2), - S. 2.}}, Chairman of the Gallipoli Union in Prague, Major General M. M. Zinkevich {{GARF. - F. 5796, Op. 1, D. 4, L. 52.}}, Head of the First Division of the EMRO, Lieutenant General V.K. Vitkovsky {{Ibid., F. 6461, Op. 2, D. 18, L. 296.}}, Head of the Southeastern Division of the ARIA, Captain First Rank Podgorny {{Ibid. - F. 5796, Op. 1, D. 8, L. 24.}} And others. Podgorny called the military operations of the German army a continuation of the white struggle against communism. About the Cossacks Krasnov and Shkuro, there is no need to mention? And about the “whites” in the Far East, too?
        Strongly opposed were A. Denikin, General P. S. Makhrov, N. N. Alekseev and Prince Yu. A. Shirinsky-Shikhmatov (REOD) and some others, but to say that the majority, alas, but not. So you are there with delirium more careful cornering.
        1. verner1967
          verner1967 1 December 2017 19: 12 New
          0
          Quote: avva2012
          but to say that most, alas and ah, but no.

          this is all because helpful ideologists from the CPSU slipped data only about those renegades who went with Hitler, they were “white” emigrants, enemies. Only the most striking personalities appeared in our USSR, there was no way to hide them, so I had to admit. Among Soviet citizens there were many times more collaborators. By the way, when Mannerheim, with the help of Kaiser Germany, mercilessly suppressed the red movement and shot at batches of Finnish Red Army soldiers and sympathizers, no one called him a Finnophobe and now he has monuments everywhere. Therefore nonsense
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 1 December 2017 19: 44 New
            +4
            You were given data that were not taken from sources that were provided by the ideological department of the CPSU, which has not existed for 26 years, these are open sources, there are links, if you're interested, everything can be found. I, intentionally, did not take information from the so-called "red" sites. Apparently, you have nothing to object to this. I understand, because if you count the number of the Russian Security Corps (which by the way totaled 16 thousand people, but some were not White Guards), add on the Cossacks and some others, subtract those who were part of the ROVS combat organization and some other organizations, then those , who did not participate in the Second World War on the side of Hitler or the Japanese, not much will remain. For a snack, remember the Kirillovich and ROCOR, this applies to the most prominent personalities.
            About A. Denikin. Not so simple. That part of the emigration that supported him remained loyal to the Entente and, accordingly, it would not have been comme il faut to support its adversary in WWII, i.e., Germany. REOD, although it did not support Hitler, but for other ideological reasons. They generally considered unacceptable the possibility of intervention, unlike other "white" movements. Read the documents of the ROVS, the opinion of Drozdovsky on this matter.
            “Soviet collaborators”, well, you’re right, move on to a topic that is strange to discuss in this matter. What does the Vlasovites have to do with it? If among the “whites” there were 100 percent ideological, then among the “Vlasovites”, that is, for the most part, captured Red Army men who chose ideological fighters against the Soviet regime between brutal death in the camp and betrayal, there were few against the general background. It seems that you get such a compote from the lack of real arguments. Mannerheim was also dragged here. They put boards to him in Russia, the same Russophobes. And in Finland, in some places where his henchmen were actively zealous, for example in Tampere, with enviable regularity, his monument is smeared with red paint and they write: “lakhteri,” that is, a butcher.
            1. verner1967
              verner1967 3 December 2017 14: 20 New
              +1
              Quote: avva2012
              It seems that you get such a compote from the lack of real arguments.

              I’m not interested in your thoughts, the councils crushed in Germany, Hungary, and Finland, wherever they appeared and nowhere else in these countries, those who crushed these councils were not called Magyarophobes, Germanophobes, and even less so, Russophobes. As for the Russian emigration, the majority still helped (or sympathized) with Russia, even if it was Soviet
              According to N.I. Tolstoy, the grandson of L.N. Tolstoy, in Belgrade, more than 80% of representatives of the Russian emigration sided with their historical homeland, while there were no more than 15-20 "defeatists" (sympathizing with the Hitler regime and collaborators) %
              (Victory is a stronghold of our national identity of Russia)
              Quote: avva2012
              About A. Denikin. Not so simple.

              yes everything is clear
              Anton Ivanovich Denikin, who refused to cooperate with Germany even under threat of death and condemned everyone who sided with Germany
              (They glorified the Russian name ... Russians abroad. Part 2.) Clearly, he did not advocate the liquid Bolsheviks, but he rose above his political ideals and stood for Russia. Already Russophobes are the Bolsheviks who spoke under the banner of Marxism, and even Marx and Engels are still Russophobes. Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin hated the Russian peasantry, the foundation of Russia, dispersed the church, killing its ministers, and distributed the lands inhabited by Russians in the national outskirts. And what Russian remains with us? Even their land is not there, national minorities have received their education, only the Russians have some kind of incomprehensible federation.
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 3 December 2017 14: 57 New
                +3
                those are also Russophobes. Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin hated the Russian peasantry, the foundation of Russia, dispersed the church, killing its ministers, and distributed the lands inhabited by Russians in the national outskirts.
                So they hated that they created a superpower that spread its influence to a third of the globe. The poor, annihilated peasantry built with their money, airplanes and tanks. And the Russophobic Soviet government, after decrees on peace and land, issued a decree on the eradication of illiteracy.
                According to N.I. Tolstoy, grandson of L.N. Tolstoy.
                Yes, he is a witness. Just how did this witness 12 of thousands of Russian security corps not notice? Of course, they did not fight on the eastern front, but they gave the opportunity, 12, to thousands of German soldiers to go there. And they also actively defended the property entrusted to them, railway from Yugoslav partisans, anti-fascists.
                About Hungary, Germany, Finland, what can I say. Yes, Soviet power was crushed there, but instead of it, fascist power came. And if in Finland, officially, it was not recognized as an ideology, but in fact, it was, because they actively cooperated with Hitler, providing their territory for his troops. Well, the swastika on their planes, of course, does not count. She was blue, and this is an exceptionally big difference. Solar symbol, you take it. Well, we can draw a definite conclusion and supplement the equation: anti-Soviet = Russophobe = fascist. Although this conclusion is not new, it was still expressed by I.V. Stalin.
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 3 December 2017 15: 20 New
                  +3
                  Quote: avva2012
                  Yes, Soviet power was crushed there, but instead of it, fascist came

                  This is natural, when the Communists are beaten, the fascists come. There is no other alternative.
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 3 December 2017 15: 32 New
                    +1
                    Aggression often stems from fear. Fascism is the essence of the fear of the bourgeoisie.
                    1. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid 4 December 2017 13: 38 New
                      +4
                      Quote: avva2012
                      Aggression often stems from fear. Fascism is the essence of the fear of the bourgeoisie.

                      Out of fear of retribution for their crimes, the atrocities were so atrocious. And the Reds shot those priests who helped the White.
                      And besides the elimination of illiteracy, there was also a conflict of the whole country. And for 25 years another country has been using this electrification. Yes, not only ----- between the population and electricity so many intermediaries are wedged in, that it’s a horror! And do not live in poverty, but probably get rich and everything on the SOVIET legacy. !!!!!
                  2. verner1967
                    verner1967 3 December 2017 17: 32 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    when the Communists are beaten, the fascists come.

                    are fascists in Finland? what But what about France, Great Britain, other European countries? Is fascism everywhere? "They are already here, they are everywhere!" you mania, comrade communist.
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 3 December 2017 17: 51 New
                      +4
                      Quote: verner1967
                      But what about France, Great Britain, other European countries?

                      What how? History needs to be taught, not constantly chatted, as you do.
                      VISHI- is this understood as the light of democracy in France? Is the contact of the English Krulevsky house with the Nazis classified for the next 50 years not a fact? Quislings and others are not Nazis?
                      Do not disgrace.
                      1. verner1967
                        verner1967 3 December 2017 18: 14 New
                        0
                        Quote: badens1111
                        VICHY- is this understood as a beacon of democracy in France?

                        again entered into g .... so what a misfortune then? ))) VISHI was formed as a result of the occupation of France by Germany, and not as a result of the beating of the Communists, or was France before the Second World Communist? lol
                        Quote: badens1111
                        The contacts of the English Krulevsky house with the Nazis, classified for the next 50 years, is not it?

                        And kisses in the face of the USSR with the Nazi regime while Britain alone fought with the Nazis is also a secret for you? Also
                        Quote: badens1111
                        english krulevsky house
                        this is far from all of Great Britain.
                        Quote: badens1111
                        Quislings

                        it is the same derivative as Vichy. By the way, is fascism also in Greece? But there commies then pretty much drove after the war
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 3 December 2017 19: 23 New
                        +3
                        verner1967:
                        "VISHI was formed as a result of the occupation of France by Germany, and not as a result of the beating of the Communists or France ... By the way, is fascism also in Greece?"
                        First, for example, I did not hear that after the war in France the Communists were beaten, in England, too, it did not come to that.
                        Secondly, there really was fascism in Greece, you forgot about black colonels.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                2. verner1967
                  verner1967 3 December 2017 17: 27 New
                  0
                  Quote: avva2012
                  So they hated that they created a superpower that spread its influence to a third of the globe. The poor, annihilated peasantry built with their money, airplanes and tanks. And the Russophobic Soviet government, after decrees on peace and land, issued a decree on the eradication of illiteracy.

                  yes, yes, yes ..... a superpower appeared only in the mid-80s, what does the aforementioned have to do with it? You actually end with slogans, not on a May Day demonstration lol
                  1. badens1111
                    badens1111 3 December 2017 17: 52 New
                    +2
                    Quote: verner1967
                    a superpower appeared only in the mid-80s,

                    Liberal nonsense, at your demonstrations of complete inability to understand History, speak for themselves, the USSR-2 power of the world since May 1945.
                    1. verner1967
                      verner1967 3 December 2017 18: 05 New
                      0
                      Before you climb into someone else’s dialogue, at least read carefully
                      Quote: avva2012
                      created a superpower

                      and you write about
                      Quote: badens1111
                      world power

                      So the power of the world of the USSR became much earlier, back in the late 30s. And what kind of state is this
                      Quote: badens1111
                      USSR-2

                      where did you go first? lol
                  2. avva2012
                    avva2012 4 December 2017 02: 29 New
                    +2
                    Judging by formal features, what determines a superpower, the presence of nuclear weapons? So it was created for 1949 under Stalin. What is the middle of 80's? Again, parity between the USA and the USSR was reached by 70, after which "detente" began. But, this is by formal signs, and in fact, a superpower is determined by many signs, including the growth of the economy, and the impact on other countries. So, I do not know what holidays you have, obviously, not May Day, but empty slogans, this is yours. Alas, not in the history of the "white movement", not in post-war history, you are not very knowledgeable.
                    1. verner1967
                      verner1967 4 December 2017 06: 56 New
                      0
                      Quote: avva2012
                      what defines a superpower, the presence of nuclear weapons?

                      the presence of a few nuclear weapons does not determine the status of a superpower. Otherwise, we now have a dime a dozen such superpowers. The components, in addition to possessing nuclear weapons, are their number, delivery vehicles, and, above all, a developed economy. What was not observed in the USSR at that time.
                      Quote: avva2012
                      Again, parity between the USA and the USSR was reached by the 70th

                      At VO there was already a discussion and an article on this subject, that the combination of nuclear weapons and missile defense, which reliably covered our country, formed only by the 80th. But, in any case, this is not even the 50s.
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 4 December 2017 07: 39 New
                        +2
                        At VO there was already a discussion and an article on this subject, that the combination of nuclear weapons and missile defense, which reliably covered our country, was formed only in 80.

                        With all due respect to our site, we do not determine which country is a superpower and which is not. I, I remember, some Hansik said, they say, "The USSR, this is Upper Volta with missiles," so their opinion about my country is not interesting to me. That was a great country built by our grandfathers under the leadership of the Communist Party. A country that did not look at anyone. And now, yes, according to the level of development, we are somewhere out there, and to appease the great gentleman, we refuse to produce nuclear trains and meekly demolish the defeat of our consulate. What's next?
                    2. verner1967
                      verner1967 4 December 2017 18: 49 New
                      0
                      Quote: avva2012
                      Alas, not in the history of the "white movement", not in post-war history, you are not very knowledgeable.

                      and who are the judges? lol Without giving a single serious argument, we draw far-reaching conclusions. Literacy first learn.
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 5 December 2017 03: 31 New
                        +3
                        Without giving a single serious argument, we draw far-reaching conclusions. Literacy first learn.
                        "The thesis that Hitler is at war with the enemies of Russia in the name of her liberation is present in personal appeals to the emigrant public, Major General V.V. Biskupsky {{Maritime Journal. - July 1941. - No. 145 (2), - C. 2.}}, Chairman of the Gallipoli Union in Prague, Major General M. M. Zinkevich {{GARF. - F. 5796, Op. 1, D. 4, L. 52.}}, Head of the First Division of the EMRO, Lieutenant General B . K. Vitkovsky {{Ibid., - F. 6461, Op. 2, D. 18, L. 296.}}, Head of the Southeastern Division of ARIA, captain of the first rank Podgorny {{Ibid. - F. 5796, Op .1, D. 8, L. 24 .}} "
                        At the expense of literacy, this is not for me, for Olgovich, he is a specialist in Russian literature. And the AR-guments, there, everything is there.
                      2. badens1111
                        badens1111 6 December 2017 08: 16 New
                        +2
                        Quote: verner1967
                        Without giving a single serious argument, we draw far-reaching conclusions. Literacy first learn.

                        Are you talking about yourself? Rude that you know how, yes knowledge, zero.
    4. Train
      Train 1 December 2017 18: 09 New
      +1
      Wouldn’t we shoot, would Putin not repent in Danzig, is there another question for who killed the Poles? -Read a little history and the situation at that moment ... Much will become clear, I personally would have to say that we raised our heads proudly, we sent these people to the graves for that organization, the direction of which was to undermine the USSR and its subsequent collapse, the legs of the Brzezinski plan grow from there, most of the officers of the Polish army were involved in this organization, whose agents were trained in Germany and Stalin constantly laid down reports on the table what kind of organization and what it does ....
      1. jhltyjyjctw
        jhltyjyjctw 14 December 2017 07: 53 New
        0
        The historical truth is not a woman with low social responsibility. You seem like an insignificant fact, you acknowledge the fact of the shooting of the Poles of the NKVD, thereby implying the USSR, Russians, me, in particular, a particularly serious crime - murder. There is no evidence, ABSOLUTELY no evidence of the involvement of the NKVD in this execution (the Katyn Detective detached Yuri Mukhin in detail and objectively). So why once again blame my people for a crime without statute of limitations? The one who does this, either, or. You can talk a lot about the Poles in fact, a lot of good things you will hear. God be their judge. The Smolensk events did not just happen. And to believe that the GDP repented in Danzig is certainly possible. Honor him for that. The same Poles who destroyed tens of thousands of Russian prisoners of war will never do this. However, one must know that in politics there is no place for emotions. There are exclusively state interests. I trust GDP. I suppose it had to be done then, and he did it. You and I have no idea what kind of struggle is going on there. I suppose he knows who the Poles soaked in 1940. But the fact remains - not a single penny of compensation (and the Poles counted billions of greenery, stupid people) the Russian Federation did not pay them. And NEVER pay. As one great man said: the wind of history will dispel the garbage that will be dumped on my grave. And the Poles are the Poles. Read Churchill.
  3. Basil50
    Basil50 30 November 2017 06: 48 New
    18
    Well, I don’t have to talk about adequate Poles, but the fact that Putin * sang * to the Poles for the sake of the gas pipeline hit Russia.
    The Poles against the SOVIET UNION officially declared war twice, apart from provocations, including Bulak-Balakhovich. From 1919 to 1939, the Poles also officially colonized the occupied lands by the police and army. These are the punishers and figures * of pasification * captured and executed, while there were public courts where Polish criminals were thoroughly and convincingly accused. Since the Poles are still afraid to touch the courts and executions of criminals, then too much will become public and not only Polish. Thanks to frank lies, Katyn became * convenient * for the Poles. Especially Goebels started this provocation, realizing that the Poles would support him. The Poles from London had too close ties with the Germans. No wonder the British staged a plane crash to Sikorsky and other Poles.
    Today, the Poles are generally a good time, following the example of the United States they lie without any limits of decency or common sense. It is a pity that in RUSSIA there are those who support them in this lie, and not only in this.
    1. 97110
      97110 30 November 2017 11: 20 New
      +7
      Quote: Vasily50
      It is a pity that in RUSSIA there are those who support them in this lie, and not only in this.

      And ancient Roman wisdom says: "money does not smell." Capitalism...
  4. avva2012
    avva2012 30 November 2017 07: 02 New
    28
    Professor of Moscow State Linguistic University (MSLU), Doctor of Historical Sciences Alexei Plotnikov:
    If you compose the main contradictions, it turns out: - at the site of the shooting, German-made shells of the caliber 6,35 and 7,65 mm were found (GECO, as well as RWS); - it is documented that the hands of some of the executed were tied with paper twine. In the USSR, this was not produced then, but it was produced in Europe, including Germany; - Documents on the enforcement of the sentence were not found in the archives, nor was the sentence of execution executed, without which no execution is possible in principle; - found by the Germans during the exhumation in February-May of the 1943 of the year, and by the Burdenko commission in the 1944 of the year: officers ’certificates, passports, and other identification cards. This also indicates the USSR’s non-involvement in the execution. The NKVD would not have left such evidence - it was categorically forbidden by the corresponding instruction. There would not be any newspapers printed precisely in the spring of 1940, but they were “found” by the Germans in large numbers at burial places; - It is known that many witnesses saw the Poles alive in 1940 – 1941.
    In addition, there are two facts: 1. In 1940, the Nazis destroyed several thousand representatives of the Polish elite without hiding. For example, in the Palmyra Forest near Warsaw. That is, there was a precedent.
    2. Archival documents on the transfer of cases to Polish prisoners of war for consideration Special meeting (CCA) under the NKVD of the USSR, which was not entitled to be sentenced to death, could have sentenced a maximum of eight years to camps. In addition, in the USSR, mass executions of foreign prisoners of war, especially officers, were never carried out at all. We scold the bureaucracy in the USSR, but each department, and in it, the units, had clearly limited powers for which they did not go.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. jhltyjyjctw
      jhltyjyjctw 14 December 2017 08: 37 New
      0
      Evidence, direct and indirect, can be faked. Any crime can be blamed on anyone. You can create any public opinion, fabricate any kind of archives. Those. if desired and appropriate capabilities, it is possible to convince all of humanity with domestic animals that white is black. Common sense cannot be undone. If he is. In the Polish case, there is, like a red thread, one circumstance that immediately puts everything in its place. He was noticed by Yu. Mukhin. Counterfeiters from history have not yet thought of falsifying the archives of the special services, in particular, the residency report. The fact is that before the war, Poland had very high-quality intelligence - a defensive, in my opinion, which had its own intelligence even in the Urals. The Poles knew exclusively everything that was happening in the western regions of the USSR, especially since some of these territories had recently ceased to be Polish. So: not ONE intelligence, operational contact, reports on the place and time of the execution of Polish officers in 1940. this Polish intelligence did not receive from its extremely ramified agents. Despite the fact that in November 1939. (!!!) The London Polish government in exile declared the USSR war (after which the notorious Polish officers became prisoners of war, before that they could not be prisoners of war in the USSR by definition - the USSR was not at war with Poland). We call common sense: if the NKVD shot Polish officers in 1940, which would certainly have become known to Polish intelligence, despite the fact that Poland at that time was OFFICIALLY at war with the USSR, despite the fact that the Anglo-Saxons with the French and their other allies in at the same time, even in a terrible dream, they did not see themselves as allies of the USSR in the war with Germany (one plan of bombing the Baku oil fields with the Anglo-French Air Force is worth what) and were sure that Germany the other day, next Thursday, after rain, would invade the USSR. One question: WHAT or WHO prevented Poland from screaming to the whole world about the fact of the execution of its officers by Russians ?! They were silent. Because in 1940. nobody shot Polish officers and they peacefully sawed woods and built roads, as befits a prisoner of war. Moreover, German intelligence, also not the last on the list, HAD NO operational information about the execution of the Poles. Moreover, in the spring of 1941. (!!!) German agents receive a task to probe the mood among captured Polish officers held in the western regions of the USSR. They wanted to know the Teutons: can these Poles be used in the interests of the Abwehr. How did they want to do this - dig out the corpses and have a chat? In general, smile, gentlemen, smile. All the stupid things in our world are done with a serious expression.
  5. Mu Dialer
    Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 07: 12 New
    +4
    The Soviets were shot, of course. Otherwise, our authorities would not have recognized this if there had been doubts.
    1. 210ox
      210ox 30 November 2017 07: 17 New
      26
      If YOUR power is the power of labeled and EBN ... then it is clear ..
      Quote: Mu Dialer
      The Soviets were shot, of course. Otherwise, our authorities would not have recognized this if there had been doubts.
      1. Mu Dialer
        Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 07: 21 New
        +3
        Putin also admits. Yes, and labeled with a fucking would not recognize if they were not sure.
        1. 97110
          97110 30 November 2017 11: 24 New
          14
          Quote: Mu Diazwon
          Putin also admits.

          Putin is also the president of the Russian Federation. You can say anything, but, unlike the USSR, the Russian Federation is a bourgeois state.
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 30 November 2017 13: 48 New
            12
            Quote: 97110
            Putin is also the president of the Russian Federation. You can say anything, but, unlike the USSR, the Russian Federation is a bourgeois state.
            repost of our colleague.
            Recently, I often regret that I didn’t have a chance to be born in the 1920s, in order to personally become a contemporary of those great people who created the people's republic with blood and sweat.
            Rise to the attack: “For Homeland”, and then either perish, clearly knowing why, or survive, and after the victory take off the country, live modestly, but humanly, sincerely be friends, believe in a bright future and spare nothing for it build ....
            But it did not happen ...
            Probably the worst thing for my generation was to live on a break, at the very edge of the transition from Light to Darkness, half life there and half life here.
            Will there be enough for us that inner charge of the Great Victories that nourished Us in order to withstand the current obscurantism and Darkness that has seized our Motherland?
            Is there enough common sense to figure out what is “white” and what is “black”?
            After all, it is Our generation that is the extreme that forced the USSR, We are the last “guardians” of its ideals, Our last line, there is nowhere to go “behind Moscow”, and before Us the enemy is cunning, treacherous, deceitful, greedy and merciless and with it only unbridled Darkness.
            And if we ourselves do not give ourselves order No. 227, then there will be nobody else to give it!
            Either we are rebuilding the Soviet country, having pushed off from the last frontier, or a shameful slow extinction.
            And here already everyone decides for himself.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 30 November 2017 15: 04 New
              +9
              Better to be dust and ashes than dirt and stink laughing
            2. 97110
              97110 30 November 2017 16: 00 New
              +7
              Quote: Stroporez
              repost of our colleague.

              Thank. I will subscribe to every word. Especially this one:
              Quote: Stroporez
              let him live modestly, but humanly, sincerely be friends, believe in a bright future and spare nothing to build it ....

              Those living today, especially “successful” people, will not understand and do not believe that they lived like that ...
            3. DimerVladimer
              DimerVladimer 1 December 2017 11: 14 New
              +1
              Quote: Stroporez
              And if we ourselves do not give ourselves order No. 227, then there will be nobody else to give it!


              Themselves under a barrage detachment under a machine gun?
              What nonsense.
      2. avva2012
        avva2012 30 November 2017 07: 54 New
        22
        Quote: 210quq If YOUR power is the power of labeled and EBN ...
        There is an interesting fact. laughing 29.02.12, Decision of the Tver court chaired by Judge T. Fedosova: “Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (real name is Dzhugashvili) during the period 1917-1953. He was a Soviet political, state, military and party leader. He was also one of the leaders of the USSR during the Katyn tragedy, September 1941 years". “These circumstances are recognized by the court as well-known and by virtue of Article 61 of the Code of Civil Procedure of the Russian Federation and do not need to be proved.”
        In short, they carved themselves! But, as a result, there is, as the precedent says, a legal conclusion that the Poles were shot not in the spring of 1940, but in the fall of 1941.
        1. Rey_ka
          Rey_ka 30 November 2017 11: 02 New
          +8
          So Vissarionitch personally shot from the Spasskaya Tower? Therefore, he doesn’t need proof, because everyone saw even in Europe
      3. antivirus
        antivirus 30 November 2017 08: 16 New
        +2
        This singer from the new newspaper has passed
      4. Mu Dialer
        Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 08: 21 New
        +1
        210ox
        Incidentally, in 1991 I did not vote for Yeltsin, but you and many others who are constantly scolding him now, most likely they voted for him, I remember then, in 1991, Yeltsin was very popular.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 30 November 2017 12: 05 New
          14
          Quote: Mu Diazwon
          Incidentally, in 1991 I did not vote for Yeltsin, but you and many others who are constantly scolding him now, most likely they voted for him, I remember then, in 1991, Yeltsin was very popular.

          I recall the 90th year, a party activist meeting was held in the workshop, all the party and Komsomol members of the workshop were present. The meeting was led by a deputy. the head of the workshop on the party line Novokshonov. He clearly stated that a coup d'etat was being prepared in the country and that Eltsin would be the flagship of this coup, and we, as production managers (craftsmen), should inform the workers that we should not vote for ebony. to me. What is it like to bring workers to a meeting, everyone who worked at the factory knows that after the shift it is practically impossible, there is only lunch time at 11:00, literally 5min. in the interval between the stop of the machines and the dominukha, then no one will listen to the excitement and the knock of “knuckles” belay I went to the factory printing house in advance and asked for a bottle of alcohol to print a leaflet on the Canadian ebna book "Confession on a given topic", in short, ebn is
          Quote: Mu Diazwon
          Mu Dialer
          .
          Our peasants realized right away !!!
          Two weeks later, they delegated me and the shop normalizer from the Komsomol to a rally involving ebna.
          It turned out that I stood three meters away from the ebna, between me and him were loved (this is the "look") and, if I am not mistaken, shahrai.
          I still regret that I didn’t strangle him then, I would have already served a long time, and the history of the country might have had a different development ....
          And that's why the team “A” in the 91st did not comply with the order to destroy this
          Quote: Mu Diazwon
          Mu Dialer

          this is a question for hook!
          1. Mu Dialer
            Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 14: 19 New
            +2
            Stroporezu.
            Yes, you personally voted for EBN.
            1. japs
              japs 30 November 2017 22: 24 New
              +5
              ". [quote = Mu Dialer] ..."

              When there are no arguments ..
          2. Doliva63
            Doliva63 1 December 2017 17: 34 New
            +9
            In the 80th, our laboratory (well, there cyclotron, microtron, betatron) was equipped at the Sverdlovsk collective farm in the fall. It’s clear that the plan was made, alcohol (which for the cyclotron, in theory laughing ) drank and went to the city. I was traveling with a team of vacuum workers on a GAZ-66 with a KUNG. At some point, the KUNG door on the go opened and we saw the “Seagull” a couple of meters from us. Yeltsin was sitting in the passenger seat. One of the colleagues grabbed the GAZ crankshaft lying in KUNG and took aim at the windshield - like, right now, I will beat this kazla! Somehow the crankshaft was taken, the door was closed. I still regret it. That "Seagull" was with ordinary glasses. sad
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 1 December 2017 20: 43 New
              0
              yes ... but things could have been different .. sorry humanity played a cruel joke ...
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 30 November 2017 10: 25 New
      18
      Quote: Mu Diazwon
      Tips shot

      And your "click" goes to you! good
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 30 November 2017 16: 47 New
        +7
        it’s not a clique. it’s a way of life ..
      2. karabas86
        karabas86 2 December 2017 19: 47 New
        +3
        Doctor - I'm a phenomenon
        what is this expressed in?
        My testicles are ringing !!!!!!
        No comrade, you are not a phenomenon. You are up to ringing
    3. Looking for
      Looking for 30 November 2017 13: 57 New
      -1
      Who are you calling the Soviets.?!
    4. Deniska999
      Deniska999 30 November 2017 17: 39 New
      0
      Yes gag with them, with this officers ...
  6. Mu Dialer
    Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 07: 26 New
    +4
    If I don’t confuse, they shot him in March 1940, and by the way, not only in Katyn, there were shootings in several places. In March 1940, Stalin felt very confident, he did not think that the Germans would defeat France in one month.
    1. your1970
      your1970 30 November 2017 10: 28 New
      14
      Quote: Mu Dialer
      Poles, if not confused, were shot in March 1940, and not only in Katyn, by the way, there were shootings in several other places. March 1940 Stalin he felt very confident, he did not think that the Germans would defeat France in one month.
      -aga therefore he was preparing to give the Germans land to Smolensk, he gave the command to shoot from German weapons ..
      In addition, there is no expediency of execution - they worked on road works, brought any kind of benefit, there were no obvious threats on their part (if they were - they would have transported the USSR deep into the country to small camps and all), there was no threat from Germany, there were also no problems with the Polish government in exile (even England didn’t pay much attention to them - and all the more so they didn’t go to Stalin)

      Nobody pays attention to the technical, so to speak side, things - to shoot 10 people from pistols it is either a very long time (with a limited number of shooters) or requires a LOT of l / s. Even confirmed and documented executions by fascists LESS quantities using automatic weapons (including machine guns) - lasted a long time: to select persons, load, put on cordon, transport / drive to the place of execution, shoot, remove corpses.
      It is also described here according to the Germans - that they shot in the back of the head to everyone that everyone was connectedthat individual people were connected in a complex way using clothes to cover the face.
      All this significantly increases the time required for the execution of such a mass of people (March-April, according to German data)

      Z.Y. I think that there were shootings of a limited (no more than 2000) circle of Poles by the Germans
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 30 November 2017 14: 27 New
        +1
        "business - to shoot 10 people with pistols is either very long (with a limited number of shooters)" ///

        Only a few people were shot, but they had to change dozens of pistols. Broke.
        And it took a lot of time.
        1. your1970
          your1970 30 November 2017 15: 48 New
          +4
          Quote: voyaka uh
          And it took a lot of time.
          -
          Just count the time - given that the pistols also broke ...

          According to the documents (real or fake - I do not know):
          March 3 Beria appealed to the Politburo
          March 5 Politburo decided
          by the end of March, the NKVD took everyone to the places of liquidation.

          according to testimony given to the Germans - only 2 months (March-April).
          Moreover, at least 15 days fall out of March for the PB decision to reach the performers, lists were drawn up and other bureaucratic work was carried out.
          That even tightens the time frame - up to a month with a little. And also a gimp with a piece of shooting, including complex and other binding.

          Once again about the illogical - they did not interfere with anyone from 17.09.1939/1940/XNUMX to February XNUMX, and then suddenly abruptly rushed to eliminate at an accelerated pace. There had to be some kind of impetus. Beria’s message wasn’t such - since it was originally known that "they are clear anti-Soviet and enemies." According to the text - "members of various counterrevolutionary spy and sabotage organizations, former landowners, manufacturers, former Polish officers, officials and defectors "(they quickly shot their own, but God himself ordered strangers). Therefore, there was no reason to feed them for six months - they would have been shot right away, back in the fall of 1939. If there were such a necessity !! But it wasn’t ...

          Z.Y. where from newspapers in the prison camp ???? namely, they serve as one of the methods of dating .. What read the they could have political information - 100% !! But distributing newspapers in the camp is very doubtful ...
        2. Bobrovsky
          Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 18: 13 New
          +1
          The gun can withstand 10000 shots freely. There’s nothing to break there. The main failure is the height of the trunk, that is, the inner surface of the trunk is covered with microcracks.
      2. Black5Raven
        Black5Raven 30 November 2017 18: 26 New
        0
        Quote: your1970
        In addition, there is no expediency of execution - they worked on road works, brought any kind of benefit, there were no obvious threats on their part (if there were - they would have taken across the USSR to the depths of the country in small camps and that’s all)

        Many workers in science and culture were also shot or sent to camps, too, does not fit with expediency, don’t you?
        1. your1970
          your1970 30 November 2017 19: 59 New
          +5
          Quote: Black5Raven
          Quote: your1970
          In addition, there is no expediency of execution - they worked on road works, brought any kind of benefit, there were no obvious threats on their part (if there were - they would have taken across the USSR to the depths of the country in small camps and that’s all)

          Many workers in science and culture were also shot or sent to camps, too, does not fit with expediency, don’t you?
          -Don't find !!!!
          figures of science and culture - were here, in the USSR, were not limited in meetings / movements / conversations,had the ability to carry out any actions, including wrecking / sabotage / counter-revolutionary - then, based on actual and / or fabricated materials, the NKVD were planted
          Prisoners of war were outside the territory of the USSR and got here only from the moment of capture. Here they could not physically wreck the camp !!! but they could only benefit the country in creating roads, which they did
          Do you understand the difference?! Alone РјРѕРіР »Ryo cause harm inside (real or imaginary is another matter) - others do not РјРѕРіР »Ryo(they could fight against the USSR - but they could conduct anti-Soviet agitation / steal state property / sabotage - no). That is why there was such expediency in relation to its citizens - but not in relation to Poles.

          Z.Y. According to the Criminal Code, the execution was put their citizens and in no way extended to foreign soldiers. And there are no formal grounds for execution.
          1. japs
            japs 30 November 2017 22: 35 New
            11
            Studying at the institute in Minsk, in 1979-80 he talked with an elderly, very smart woman who worked in the prosecutor's office of the city of Minsk before the war. She told how much interesting things about the recognized "classics" of poetry and literature, scientific personnel, and other persons who scribbled denunciations on colleagues for the sake of an apartment, a post, a post, and other benefits.
            So, "Dark5 Raven", not everything you know ...
            1. your1970
              your1970 1 December 2017 08: 49 New
              +1
              this is why this confirms - that the grounds (imaginary or real is another question! and I have no doubt that they could knock and invent imaginary conspiracies for the sake of a career) for landing / shooting their own citizens - but for the sudden execution of the Poles, no
              Moreover - the reasons that Beria gives are quite enough to shoot them in 1939, but this does not happen.
              It also contradicts everything - the level of decision-making in the event that any conspiracies within the camps are revealed. For this, the level of power of the head of the camp is sufficient - "The core of an anti-Soviet conspiracy was revealed with the aim of organizing an uprising and an escape, name, patronymic ....". Further - even according to the Geneva Convention it is already possible to shoot in the manner prescribed by law as "ardent anti-Sovietists who encroached on Soviet power."

              Article Forty-fifth
              Prisoners of war are subject to the laws, rules and orders in force in the army of the power that holds the prisoners. All acts of disobedience cause their adoption of measures provided for by these laws, rules and orders. However, the regulation of this chapter remains in force.
              Article forty-six
              The military authorities and the court of a state containing prisoners of war cannot subject them to any punishment, except for those provided for the same acts committed by members of the national forces.
              Article Forty-seventh
              Acts against discipline and especially attempts to escape are subject to immediate proof. The preliminary arrest of prisoners of war, with or without rank, is reduced to a strict minimum. The judicial investigation of prisoners of war should be carried out as fast as the circumstances of the case permit.

              And here we see the opposite: for six months Beria has been observing that 100% anti-advisers are sitting in his camps and instead of acting under the current law to carry out the legal procedure of investigation - trial - execution (and no one can stop him in this matter - this is his diocese and his camps, moreover, he is obliged to give instructions to take all necessary actions in case mass SUDDENLY poses a question to the Politburo. Why ?? The current legislation was enough for him - to shoot. Moreover, they could ask him- "Why is it that you, Lavrenty Pavlovich, have a massive anti-Soviet in the camps? Condone ?!"
        2. Doliva63
          Doliva63 1 December 2017 17: 40 New
          +6
          A lot, how much? Less than 10 are not accepted. And last names, please. Otherwise-just anti-Soviet govnovbros.
        3. Bobrovsky
          Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 18: 15 New
          +1
          We beat their own so that strangers are afraid. Shot figures who gritted their teeth at Soviet power.
    2. prodi
      prodi 30 November 2017 11: 34 New
      +1
      even if they were shot, then the resonance completely does not correspond to significance
      1. Dzmicer
        Dzmicer 30 November 2017 17: 31 New
        +1
        I completely agree. We have killed almost ALL of them / forced to emigrate and nothing, "themselves to blame." And the Poles, because of some 20 thousand representatives of the national elite, made a fuss, but business.
        1. prodi
          prodi 30 November 2017 18: 37 New
          0
          it’s not even the representatives of the “national elite” smile . Military, not civilian, besides officers - there’s nothing to even talk about
    3. jhltyjyjctw
      jhltyjyjctw 14 December 2017 08: 48 New
      0
      Stalin felt confident, so it was necessary to shoot the Poles. What for? What is the benefit for Stalin if you believe that he certainly had to shoot someone when he feels confident. Why exactly the Poles? It was possible to shoot Turkish citizens.
  7. parusnik
    parusnik 30 November 2017 07: 44 New
    19
    Polish prisoners of war were killed from firearms produced in Germany.
    ...Those. if the Chekists shot the Poles with German weapons, the question arises, why in other regions not affected by the occupation they shot from the Soviet ...? It turns out that, for their own-domestic, for imported-imported weapons .. Apparently the Poles themselves asked, they don’t want to die from yours, give us the German, it’s more reliable ... And we’ll certainly grease German with green, so that the bullet would not infect. .According to the fact that the Russian Federation recognized the shooting of the Poles by the Soviet authorities .. For grants and loans you can’t admit anything .. Yes, and then they loved to repent for all the "sins" of the Soviet government ... If the Russian Federation is so decent, let's admit that The Malaysian “Boeing” was shot down, the “Tu” with Kaczynski, by the way over Smolensk, such as the “international” commissions proved involvement .. And we respect the opinions of such commissions, as in Katyn, for example ...
    1. Mu Dialer
      Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 07: 48 New
      +8
      Yes, yes ... Putin is such a corrupt little guy that he recognized something that didn’t exist ... For a grant and a loan :-) I believe :-)
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 30 November 2017 07: 53 New
        21
        The recognition began under Gorbachev and Yeltsin ... and these identities are also worthless, crystal-clear decent boys .. :-) I believe :-)
        1. Mu Dialer
          Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 08: 03 New
          +4
          But Putin admits it.
          1. Mu Dialer
            Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 08: 05 New
            +2
            And about German weapons ... At that time, the Germans and the Soviets cooperated and traded, even collaborated on special services. The Soviets, for example, gave the Germans the German Communists who had taken refuge from Nazism in the USSR.
            1. parusnik
              parusnik 30 November 2017 08: 13 New
              24
              Let's decide. You agree with the conclusions of the Goebbels commission, I agree with the conclusions of the Burdenko commission. Then we will disperse. Talk with Urengoy. I think he will be glad to talk with you ... hi
              1. Mu Dialer
                Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 08: 17 New
                +2
                I agree with Putin.
                Do not tell me what to do and I won’t tell you where to go :-)
                1. speelforce
                  speelforce 30 November 2017 08: 53 New
                  21
                  Dear Mu Dialer, you are confusing something .. The recognition of the Katyn tragedy occurred with the filing of the State Duma of the Russian Federation by President Medvedev, and not by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who did not have the right to do so. In addition, the authority of the State Duma and D. Medvedev it fades somewhat before the authority of the Nuremberg Tribunal - whose decisions are not subject to review forever. Further statements by Putin V.V. regarding the Katyn tragedy should be seen as a continuation of the political line initiated by D. Medvedev and the impossibility of abandoning it. Since this will lead to a complete discredit of the government of the Russian Federation, headed by D. Medvedev and the State Duma at the official level. Although I don’t know what else can be discredited there.
                  1. Mu Dialer
                    Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 08: 59 New
                    +3
                    In short, the Russian authorities acknowledge that I am not confusing anything.
                    1. Nikolaevich I
                      Nikolaevich I 30 November 2017 10: 34 New
                      10
                      The ruling regime in Russia and Russia is not "one and the same"!
                  2. RUSS
                    RUSS 30 November 2017 10: 17 New
                    +6
                    Responsibility for the execution was recognized by the Union.

                    On February 22, 1990, the head of the International Department of the Central Committee of the CPSU V. Falin sent a note addressed to M. S. Gorbachev, in which he informed about new archival finds (primarily documents discovered by Yu. Zorai). He pointed out that the publication of such materials would completely undermine the official position of the Soviet government (about "unprovenness" and "lack of documents") and recommended urgently deciding on a new position. In this regard, it was proposed to inform Jaruzelsky that no direct evidence (orders, orders, etc.), allowing to indicate the exact time and specific perpetrators of the Katyn tragedy, was found, but “on the basis of the indicated indices, it can be concluded that the death of the Polish officers in the Katyn area - the work of the NKVD and personally Beria and Merkulova ”[86].

                    On April 13, 1990, during a visit to Moscow by Yaruzelsky, a TASS statement was published on the Katyn tragedy, which read:

                    “The identified archival materials together allow us to conclude that there is direct responsibility for the atrocities in the Katyn forest of Beria, Merkulov and their henchmen.

                    The Soviet side, expressing deep regret at the Katyn tragedy, declares that it represents one of the grave crimes of Stalinism. "

                    Gorbachev transmitted to Yaruzelsky the discovered staged lists of the NKVD from Kozelsk, from Ostashkov and from Starobelsk.

                    After that, the Main Military Prosecutor's Office of the USSR launched an investigation into the Katyn murder.
                    1. Bobrovsky
                      Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 18: 18 New
                      +3
                      At that time there were a lot of stuffing of false documents. There was an order, there were fakes.
                    2. speelforce
                      speelforce 17 December 2017 10: 17 New
                      0
                      What recognition? Have you ever seen these documents? Not only were they about nothing, but there was no recognition. But 56 signs of fake found)))
                2. parusnik
                  parusnik 30 November 2017 09: 03 New
                  11
                  I agree with Putin.
                  And our government agrees with the conclusions of the Goebbels commission .. But is Kolya not your boyfriend? ..
                  and I won’t tell you where to go :-).
                  ..I have already advised ... Tell me where to go .. just wondering ... Maybe make a company .. or have you already been there ...?
                  1. Mu Dialer
                    Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 09: 13 New
                    +3
                    Leaving go.
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 30 November 2017 13: 30 New
                      13
                      Go, my dear, go, don’t hold ... Yes, do not forget to “bang” the admin .. They say that you were treated badly ... That's interesting, I write the word d.u.r.a.ch.o.k in my comments it doesn’t work for me, administrators are chopping down .. And you write this word in your comments, your admins are skipping ..
                      1. Mu Dialer
                        Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 14: 26 New
                        +1
                        I'll have to knock - knock, I’m not ashamed of your crying ....
                        Durik - put the English letters, understand ??? Admins have nothing to do with it.
                        No offense, I respect you and do not want to swear with you, peace?
                        Write to the PM, no offense. Sorry, nothing personal.
                3. Lev Bronsch
                  Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 10: 58 New
                  +1
                  Well, where do you go reflected in your nickname - psychology is also a science, have not you heard? subconscious mind fools! laughing
              2. avva2012
                avva2012 30 November 2017 08: 46 New
                10
                Quote: parusnik He thinks he will be glad to communicate with you ...

                Didn’t they know? laughing "From the beginning, they crap, then they remove the energy from those who were indignant with this. And then they laugh at those who managed to gobble up. Trolls are paid and unpaid. Unpaid trolls crap out of love for the art of crap. They get great pleasure from this process and, as vampires, they download energy from the audience. By the definition of LN Gumilyov, such people are sub-passionaries, that is, destroyers. This is a degenerate part of the people, not capable of creation. They have an acute lack of energy for life and they need to eat someone Otherwise they will "Bad. In general, they are energy vampires and they cannot live in any other way." Yuri Gomonov.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 30 November 2017 09: 07 New
                  +7
                  How can we do without vampires ... smile You can’t do without vampires .. smile
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 30 November 2017 09: 11 New
                    +8
                    Quote: parusnik How can we do without vampires ... smile You can’t do without vampires .. smile

                    Well, well, you can and so laughing
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 30 November 2017 09: 13 New
                      +5
                      I’ll buy a party ... laughing
                      1. novel66
                        novel66 30 November 2017 09: 35 New
                        +6
                        and garlic. for fidelity!
            2. long in stock.
              long in stock. 30 November 2017 08: 40 New
              +5
              yeah. in return they asked the Mausers and the parabells to use what to shoot ... iron evidence ..
              1. Mu Dialer
                Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 08: 57 New
                +3
                They bought it, and not only pistols, but also other weapons.
                If in doubt, you can google it.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 30 November 2017 09: 06 New
                  +4
                  We bought. And not only pistols but also other weapons
                  .
                  ..So the British and Americans bought the identity too ... and not only weapons but factories for their production ... why, let’s say they didn’t shoot them from English or American ...
                  1. Mu Dialer
                    Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 09: 24 New
                    +2
                    You are not Jewish by the hour?
                    And then I recall the expression: "The British leave without saying goodbye, and the Jews say goodbye but do not leave."
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 30 November 2017 13: 33 New
                      +9
                      Jew. a Jew ... I’m now at Babi Yar’s place, so that I would be planted as a Jew in the back of my head or rushing into the stove of the Auschwitz crematorium ... Or wait for you with the pogrom ...
                    2. badens1111
                      badens1111 30 November 2017 13: 42 New
                      11
                      Quote: Mu Diazwon
                      You are not Jewish by the hour?

                      Why did you say goodbye, still unforgiving, didn’t leave?
                      Goebbels, having such helpers as you, in his apparatus, was happy. No one who respects himself, will call himself a nickname like yours, so say goodbye and go off somewhere to forums where people like you chew on the chewing gum of the anti-Soviet and the Russian community 24 hours in Day-on Rain and Echo of Moscow.
                      1. Mu Dialer
                        Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 14: 34 New
                        +2
                        I did not say goodbye, I am rather an Englishman :-)
                        This Sailboat said goodbye to me, and then again accused me of all mortal sins :-)
                  2. Lev Bronsch
                    Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 10: 59 New
                    +1
                    Well, what do you answer provocateur ??
                2. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 30 November 2017 16: 41 New
                  +6
                  I have no doubts about the purchase of German weapons. I have doubts about the existence of the NKVD units armed entirely with German materiel. in the end, we got a huge amount of Polish weapons as trophies. why weren’t they shot from him then? there would be a feint with ears ...
                  1. Bobrovsky
                    Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 18: 23 New
                    +2
                    Bolo Mausers were purchased from Germany, that is, the K-96 Mauser with a shortened barrel. They bought in the twenties for the red commanders, because from his weapon was only gun. The NKVD purchased Walter PP and PPK for high authorities and for scouts. And for ordinary employees and Nagans enough.
      2. Rey_ka
        Rey_ka 30 November 2017 12: 34 New
        +5
        By the way, Katyn recognized GDP only in the context of Poland's recognition of the destruction of 30 thousand Red Army men. And in principle, if Poland refuses these victims, then we will roll back the recognition
        Despite the fact that in 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev recognized the responsibility of the Soviet Union for the murder of Polish officers and intellectuals, many archival materials about this remain classified.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 30 November 2017 10: 31 New
      +6
      Quote: parusnik
      then they loved to repent for all the "sins" of the Soviet regime ..

      Alas, but for sure! And not only to repent ... but also to "share" the territories ... to "lay" their scouts ....!
      1. Mu Dialer
        Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 12: 21 New
        +2
        Nikolaevich (and the rest).
        And what about the Soviet time?
        Putin NOW recognizes Katyn, and he is not such a person as Gorbi or EBN.
        What does the German evidence have to do with it? Well, 22 thousand people cannot be shot and that there would be no trace of this in the Soviet (Russian) documents.
        I am surprised at you ... You are the same demshiz, but vice versa ... "Novodvorskie" with a different pole.
        Try to be objective and you will succeed.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 30 November 2017 15: 24 New
          +3
          Can you tell me how to post a video. A fragment from the movie "Prisoner of the Caucasus"? The one where Shurik is read out a protocol with the words: ".... and then, on the ruins of a mosque ..." Shurik interrupts: "I'm sorry, but the mosque I also collapsed? .... "How much did it take for the Ways ..... Shurik (!) to sign" conscious "?
        2. the lord
          the lord 1 December 2017 01: 46 New
          +3
          Well, show us these documents that indicate the NKVD in this matter. Putin from the darkest, his soul-mate bought his soul and he is obliged to do this from time to time. so that liberoids do not show it underneath. But two facts specifically refute this version: prisoners were in uniform with insignia. what was impossible in the USSR; and they were killed by German weapons in the back of the head, which was costly, much more expensive than the domestic one and was carried out according to the Nazis in the spring in Smolensk, which makes the use of German weapons something like fopping. And this could never be said about the NKVD.
          At one time, it was decided to destroy the captured SS men near Moscow by lowering them in freight wagons downhill and installing a lot of heavy machine guns along the road. Bytro and efficient. And here the garden is fenced, beyond measure.
    3. jhltyjyjctw
      jhltyjyjctw 14 December 2017 08: 49 New
      0
      I personally will never take meldonium. Just in case.
  8. avva2012
    avva2012 30 November 2017 08: 05 New
    17
    Something from Elena Prudnikova: How much was Katyn? One, you say? If!
    The first Katyn-like sensation arose in the 1940 year. This is the so-called "Bromberg case", which is set out in the brochure "Polish atrocities against the Germans in Poland." Its authors claimed that in September 1939, Polish troops committed mass killings of German civilians, not excluding women and children, and called the number: 58 thousand people. By the way, why not ask Warsaw for a report on this story? There are acts of expertises in the Bromberg case, and as for the testimony, there are much more of them than in the Katyn case. In January 1942, the Office of Dr. Goebbels issued another book: "German soldiers in the Soviet Union: letters from the East." It contains evidence of approximately this kind: the Bolsheviks left the city (Lvov. - E.P.) after heavy fighting. Bolsheviks and Jews brutally killed 12 thousand Germans and Ukrainians. I saw a pregnant woman suspended by her legs in the GPU prison. Other women had their eyes gouged out, their noses, ears, fingers, hands, feet were cut off, some hearts were torn out (and eaten ?! - Ye. P.), 300 orphans from two to 17 years old were nailed to the wall and stabbed ... After they threw tortures of people, most of whom were still alive, into a three-meter-high pile in the basement and set it on fire (I wonder how this can be done technically? - Ye. P.). ” However, a breakthrough in exposing the atrocities of Bolshevism was made after Stalingrad. Simultaneously with Katyn, the Germans carried out exactly the same “exhumation” in Vinnitsa - 9,5 thousand bodies were dug up there, and a certain Ukrainian commission conducted a “medical examination” and set the date of death: three to five years ago. Romanians tried to arrange the same show in Odessa . However, Hitler rarely found censored words for these allies - and rightly so! The Germans were not too lazy to bring experts from Europe, and to entrust the investigation to their personnel. The Romanians hired a local photographer and local pathologists, which is why there was an instant leak of information to all of Odessa. As a result, it turned out that you couldn’t imagine it on purpose ... The Lviv Letters were later deafly mentioned in Bandera propaganda, but even Ukrainian nationalists did not use either the Vinnitsa or Odessa provocations. So they sunk into the swamp ...
    1. johnik
      johnik 30 November 2017 09: 41 New
      10
      Even a monument to his bayonet stuck in a point, homosexual ...
  9. long in stock.
    long in stock. 30 November 2017 08: 35 New
    +8
    . “The Soviet government did not consider it necessary to do this, firstly because it acceded to the Hague Conference, which contains all the most important provisions, like the Geneva” Molotov. Geneva Convention is just an addition, and it’s insignificant. Mainly it was concerned because of its insignificance they refused to sign. and the Hague was signed already in 1918 .. but the liberals can’t explain it. because, as you know, the Chukchi is not a reader ..
  10. captain
    captain 30 November 2017 09: 15 New
    11
    Dear commenters! This whole story only confirms the rule; if you are silent, then your enemies begin to speak. We have a strange attitude towards historical documents. They must be declassified after a certain time; for example, after 50-70 years. Instead, we begin to fight in hysteria when a bucket of mud is poured on us. And we begin to take out the documents we need from the archives. Everything must be done on time, and not wait when the roasted cock pecks.
  11. Eurodav
    Eurodav 30 November 2017 09: 22 New
    11
    I read this book, the facts are compelling, written logically, so I tend to believe in the execution of the Poles by the Germans.
    But the fact that "... In 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev actually recognized the responsibility of the Soviet Union for the Katyn execution ...", God really is his judge, he will never admit his lies ...
    Thanks to the author!
    1. Aspid 57
      Aspid 57 30 November 2017 10: 46 New
      +2
      Admitted? Lists of the shot passed! Where did they come from if they shot him in the USSR?
      1. the lord
        the lord 1 December 2017 01: 50 New
        +2
        These documents could be drawn up upon the investigation of the Katyn case by the Soviet commission. We also had infa about those Poles who were sitting in these camps. And over time, they could be issued for lists for execution, slightly edited.
  12. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 30 November 2017 09: 37 New
    +6
    Already declassified documents. The political leadership recognized the responsibility for the execution.
    No, the author persists in his dogmatism.
    The author will have to come to terms with the fact that he lives in the country - the heir to the criminal regime.
    1. Mu Dialer
      Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 12: 27 New
      +5
      And here comes the demshiz :-)

      People, I am objective!
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 30 November 2017 13: 48 New
        +9
        No ... not objective ... you "color" may have changed ... or maybe you haven’t changed .. shades of brown ...
        1. Mu Dialer
          Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 15: 35 New
          0
          You are stupid ... Extremely ... Alas, ah!
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 30 November 2017 15: 52 New
            +5
            You are stupid ... Extremely ... Alas, ah!
            ..But you are smart, and happy for you, our defense and state are stronger from people like you ...
      2. Ragoz
        Ragoz 1 December 2017 00: 04 New
        +4
        Toaddle:
        Your ancestors (grandfathers) were worthy associates of Goebels.
    2. MrK
      MrK 30 November 2017 22: 56 New
      +7
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      The political leadership recognized the responsibility for the execution.

      In 2012 - 2013 years. The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), having examined the case of Yanovets and Others v. Russia (Janowiec and Others v. Russia. Complaints No. 55508 / 07 and No. 29520 / 09), by its Decisions of 16.04.2012 and 21.10.3013, held responsible the shooting of Polish citizens in the spring of 1940, the pre-war Stalinist leadership.
      But back in 2010, the Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation sent Memoranda-answers to the ECHR as part of the consideration of the aforementioned case “Yanovets and Others v. Russia”. They set forth the Russian legal position on Katyn. It radically differed from the publicly voiced opinion of Russian leaders.
      Memoranda of the Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation were based on the results of the 14-year investigation conducted by the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office (GWP) of the Russian Federation from September 1990 to September 2004 in criminal case No. 159 "On the shooting of Polish prisoners of war from Kozelsky, Ostashkovsky and Starobelsky special camps of the NKVD in April- May 1940 "(Katyn case).
      So the GVP of the Russian Federation established a reliable death as a result of the decisions of the “troika” of the NKVD of the USSR only “1403 Polish prisoners of war”. And the authorities of the USSR have never denied this fact. Because they included dangerous criminals exposed in the killings of communists in Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, in sabotage, espionage, the destruction of 40 000 captured Red Army soldiers in Polish camps and other serious crimes against the USSR.
      By the way. In Russia, six courts, including the Constitutional Court, examined those documents that were used by the European Court of Human Rights when deciding on the case of Yanovets and Others v. Russia. None of these courts recognized the information contained in these documents as being true, and the Tverskoy Court of Moscow established that the fact of the execution of the captured Polish officers by the Germans in the year 1941 is common knowledge and has not yet been refuted by anyone.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    3. the lord
      the lord 1 December 2017 01: 53 New
      +3
      Political leadership? Are these the ones that, instead of developing their economies, bowed before loans to the West lined up with outstretched hands? Those could not recognize this. And the darkest one, from the dog’s team, cannot substitute twin cities from his teacher. so I signed up for the same
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 4 December 2017 14: 48 New
        +1
        Quote: znavel
        Those could not recognize this.


        I didn’t understand the logic - why recognize the execution of the officer corps before the Poles, if loans were not provided by Poland at all? You have a strange logic - I would say cautiously - not logical.
        1. the lord
          the lord 5 December 2017 02: 58 New
          +3
          And what does Poland have to do with it? Here the attempt itself is important to present the Soviets as much as possible with demonic authority, to denigrate as much as possible in everything and everything. Here it is possible and extremely saddened by the fate of the Kak-Kum jerboas. just to blame the Soviets for it. Really not to think about this?
          1. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 5 December 2017 14: 19 New
            +1
            Quote: znavel
            And what does Poland have to do with it? Here the attempt itself is important to present the Soviets as much as possible with demonic authority, to denigrate as much as possible in everything and everything. Here it is possible and extremely saddened by the fate of the Kak-Kum jerboas. just to blame the Soviets for it.


            That is, according to your logic, it is necessary to deny everything in the same way as it was clumsy how it happened since 1943?
            After publishing the materials, you suddenly refuse again - well, it’s probably what you have with strange characters.
            1. the lord
              the lord 7 December 2017 03: 33 New
              +1
              And you read here on the comments line, for example, Anderson, everything is well described there about the falsification of documents on Katyn during the reign of a drunkard. as well as other facts (found German cartridges that began to be produced in 1941, and not in 1940 and the like). So not everything that the government of national traitors published was worthy of a stupid admiration and a joyful squeal, look at some tips byaki !!)))))
    4. Bobrovsky
      Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 18: 28 New
      +1
      When you are held for ... (generally for balls), and your money is held by the holder, you will recognize anything.
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 4 December 2017 15: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Bobrovsky
        When you are held for ... (generally for balls), and your money is held by the holder, you will recognize anything.


        So you can agree to anything.
        And who holds whom? Or has Russia lost sovereignty?

        Is it hard to accept that the Stalin hedgehog was criminal?
        Stalin was indifferent to whom to destroy - political rivals, not a loyal population, to repress and shoot the top commanders of his own army number 499 in the rank from commander to commander. So what is the problem of shooting class alien officers of the Polish army?
        1. the lord
          the lord 5 December 2017 03: 05 New
          +2
          It is difficult to admit a lie and injustice. And think for yourself, if neither shy, and not a gref is still not only not in jail, but not even fired for mismatching to those occupied, despite political statements. nor on the results of their activities, what serious sovereignty of Russia can we talk about?
          And the regime of Stalin was bloody, but quite in the spirit of that time and at the same time, he fought both with the spirit of that time and with colonial and imperialist foundations.
          But the officers were shot because, alas, the reality of the conspiracy of Tukhachevsky. Stalin simply won and pretty much damaged this cohort of like-minded people. It was not good to find out whether this was good or good for our Motherland; history did not give a chance to the conspirators ... So. to shoot officers of the Red Army was the reason, to shoot Polish, no. This happens when there is still global public opinion, and you depend on the supply of necessary equipment from abroad.
          1. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 5 December 2017 14: 27 New
            +2
            Quote: znavel
            And Stalin’s regime was bloody, but in the spirit of that time.


            In which country the population was still massively destroyed (we do not take into account the later Potot)?
            Which country massively destroyed the highest lump (499 people in ranks from commander to commander and commander)? Is that Hitler, after the assassination attempt, ordered the Wehrmacht command. But Stalin ordered the Red Army for what? Paranoia?
            And scientists, designers, engineers - thousands of people are repressed.
            How convenient it is for you to blame everything for an unnamed time - there is no concrete responsible person for blood - Dzhugashvilli.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 5 December 2017 16: 56 New
              +3
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              In which country the population was still massively destroyed

              How much can you chew this chewing gum? According to archival data of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs (memorandum to Khrushchev from the Ministry of Internal Affairs), from 1921 to 1953 for counter-revolutionary crimes 2 people were imprisoned, 369 people were shot. Calculate how many percent this is from the entire population of the USSR. What kind of mass can we talk about?
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 5 December 2017 18: 43 New
                0
                Quote: Alexander Green
                According to archival data of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs

                these are those taken into account
                Quote: Alexander Green
                2 people were imprisoned

                and how many of them survived
                Quote: Alexander Green
                What kind of mass can we talk about?

                yes just a little bit. If we take into account that mainly the population of large cities woolen, it will not seem enough.
                1. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 5 December 2017 23: 16 New
                  +1
                  well, show someone not taken into account ... if you make such a statement, then you have facts of concealment? show ...
                2. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 6 December 2017 01: 45 New
                  +2
                  Quote: verner1967
                  these are those taken into account

                  In the NKVD-MVD, the accounts were accurate, and in the reference for Khrushchev they would not have played down the data on the convicted and executed. For Khrushchev, like you, the more numbers there are, the better.
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 6 December 2017 07: 24 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    For Khrushchev, like you, the more numbers there are, the better.

                    do you understand what you wrote? How can I advocate for large numbers if I condemn mass repression? fool Khrushchev’s own arm is covered in blood, do you think he’s got his death lists and telegrams with demands to increase the quota for VMN? Again fool To expose Stalin, there was enough data that was announced at the congress.
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 6 December 2017 12: 11 New
                      0
                      Quote: verner1967
                      How can I advocate for large numbers if I condemn mass repression?

                      In my opinion, everything is logical. All who condemn the so-called repressions, the real figures of the convicted and executed are increased by 20-30 times. For example, Solzhenitsyn in his "Gulag Archipelago" brought them up to 100 million. Therefore, in vain you twist at your temple.
                      By the way, your smiley was reminded of me by one old joke of the late 50s. about Khrushchev.
                      Nikita Sergeevich was walking in the park and met a janitor who showed him a fist. Nikita, in turn, twisted his finger at his temple and called the guards, saying that he was threatened and wanted to kill. During interrogation, the janitor justified himself: “What are you doing? I just showed him that power should be held in a fist, and he shows me that he does not have enough intelligence. "
                  2. verner1967
                    verner1967 6 December 2017 07: 29 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    In the NKVD-MVD, accounting is accurate,

                    maybe ... theoretically. But, I remember, all our researchers admired the order of registration with the Germans, so there was nothing to compare. Our Russian mess reigned in the NKVD, maybe on a smaller scale, but it was.
                    1. long in stock.
                      long in stock. 6 December 2017 07: 38 New
                      +2
                      again only words ...
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 6 December 2017 08: 19 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Long in stock.
                        only words.

                        It’s right where the facts come from the one who does not know anything, and because of this, instead of arguing, is engaged in chatter that is irrelevant.
                        And so with this, verner1967, always.
                    2. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 6 December 2017 20: 48 New
                      +1
                      Quote: verner1967
                      Our Russian mess reigned in the NKVD, maybe on a smaller scale, but it was.

                      How do you like self-flagellation. There was no mess in the NKVD. There was a strict accounting, the head was responsible for errors.
    5. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 1 December 2017 22: 14 New
      +7
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Already declassified documents. The political leadership recognized the responsibility for the execution.
      No, the author persists in his dogmatism.

      1. It is interesting how the political leadership explains the fact that the hands of Polish officers were tied with paper twine, which was not produced in the USSR in 1940, hemp twine was used everywhere. Are they also specially purchased in Germany, so that later they can blame everything on her !?
      2. In addition, it is remembered that one of the Polish authors, carried away by symbolism, wrote about birch leaves, which from the shots fell on the killed Polish officers.
      Only now he can be seen in a Russian bathhouse he never steamed a birch broom, which is harvested in the spring, and therefore does not know that young birch leaves do not break off even in the steam room. And they break off in the fall.
    6. jhltyjyjctw
      jhltyjyjctw 14 December 2017 08: 59 New
      0
      A link to declassified documents confirming my country's involvement in the murder of Polish officers, please give. If you don’t give the link, then you, excuse me, are a liar, or simply a stupid person. If you are a citizen of the Russian Federation, then you are also the heir to the criminal regime. In this case, pay the relatives of the victims of this regime money as they want. Or go to Red Square and nail your scrotum to the cobblestones. In protest.
  13. anderson
    anderson 30 November 2017 09: 43 New
    23
    This year Sergei Strygin passed away who was involved in the Katyn case in detail and was the best expert in this field. I don’t know what kind of expert Aslonyan is, but the fact that German 7,65 caliber weapons were used is noted, you will be surprised at the German execution report. and there is a photo of Goeko’s sleeves found in execution pits. The Katyn Museum even has a gun found there. So you don’t have to be an expert just to study the materials of two Katyn commissions - ours (Burdenko) and the Red Cross (German) commission. By the way, the German commission, by some miracle, left evidence that the Germans fired. In the photo of Goeko’s sleeves, traces of corrosion with swelling of the material characteristic of bimetallic sleeves (that is, iron coated with copper) are clearly visible .. Goeko began to produce such sleeves only after 1940 in connection with the transition to wartime ersatz materials. That is, in March April 1940, the Poles could not be shot in any way from cartridges fired after 1940 and even in 1940. So if the supporters of the Polish version of the German pistols still moo that they were specially brought in suitcases to shoot the Poles, then they cannot say anything on the cartridges. Well, for those who are very interested, I can add that there is also an exhumed grave No. 9 which was found in 90 and which both sides prefer to keep quiet. The Poles are well aware that if you exhume it, then everything will immediately become clear. And therefore, they do not give permission for exhumation, and without them it cannot be done because they say that everyone has rigged it. So the question of Katyn is a question of the lack of political will and the desire of both parties to put an end to this issue. .
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 30 November 2017 10: 02 New
      +6
      Quote: anderson This year Sergei Strygin passed away who was involved in the Katyn case in detail and was the best expert in this field.

      The Kingdom of heaven.
      Forgotten, probably already, but five years ago it was: APPLICATION FOR A FAIR WITH A FAIR http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=News&in=view&
      ; id = 224
    2. Mu Dialer
      Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 12: 33 New
      +1
      anderson

      Simple question: Putin dypak?
      And all the Soviet (Russian) politicians (specialists)?
      If everything is as you write, why Russia (Putin) are silent and admit our guilt?
      1. the lord
        the lord 1 December 2017 01: 59 New
        +5
        Putin signed up for a lot in the 90s, which is why he should keep quiet or assent. The way up was far from sanitary standards. And by the way, he is not a fool - nothing indicates in this matter and in general that he lacks intelligence. But when you are smeared, laundering is often akin to hara-kiri.
      2. Lev Bronsch
        Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 11: 10 New
        +2
        I answer - Putin is smart, but periodically tries to play in the PiAra glade, where, alas, we don’t know how and even don’t really know the rules ((. Therefore, to get some political / economic dividends for the country - pay attention, for the country! - Putin sometimes makes absurdities , alas ((. Apparently sincerely believing that as with Katyn, the matter is old and past overgrown. BUT, it does not at all take into account the multi-layer propaganda effect, for the sake of which the movement with the “denunciation of the bloody Bolshevik regime” was conceived ... Stop being a jerk it doesn’t suit you.
    3. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 4 December 2017 15: 19 New
      +1
      No. 53. 1940, April 22, Moscow. - Political report of the UPV NKVD of the USSR V.N. Merkulov about the mood of Polish prisoners of war sent from Starobelsky, Kozelsky and Ostashkovsky camps
      p.119. Prisoners of war generals Minkevich and Smoravinsky in the evening on April 7 tried to influence the rest of the prisoners of war with their authority so that they demanded departure to neutral countries. These generals ordered that none of the prisoners of war prisoners at distribution points would sign any declarations obliging them to go to German territory or to remain in the USSR.
      Generals Smoravinsky and Bokhatyrevich were exhumed from the graves near Katyn and identified.
      in the Kozelsky camp on 1.4.40g .:
      Summary of the presence of prisoners of war in the NKVD camps
      As of 8 / IV-s.g.
      2. Kozelsky camp
      A total of 4599 people are kept in the camp.
      Of them: a) admirals - 1 person.
      b) generals - 4 "
      c) colonels - 26 "
      d) lieutenant colonels - 72 "
      e) majors - 232 "
      e) captains - 647 "

      g) Morflot captains - 12 "
      h) captains of Morflot I rank - 2 "
      i) captains of Morflot II rank - 3 "
      j) other [ogih] officers - 3480 "
      l) priests - 8 "
      m) landowners - 9 "
      m) large state [s] officials - 61 "
      o) soldier and ml. command staff
      (sent to builds [elst] in number 1). - 5 "
      n) other
      (checked to resolve the issue of further direction) - 37
    4. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 4 December 2017 15: 21 New
      +1
      You are cunning in vain - there are not only documents, but also testimonies

      Vitold Ognevich, a former prisoner of Kozelsk, reports at http://www.katynbooks.narod.ru/relacje/Docs/1_01.
      html that:
      1. After a month's stay in the Pavlishchev Bor camp near Moscow, all the officers — and there were about two hundred of us — were transported to Kozelsk.
      2. A pensive and serious man with a dark beard walked along the main road of the camp almost every day, most often alone. It was General Smoravinsky. Near the general’s hut, I often met generals Minkevich and Bogatyrevich and the invariably elegant vice admiral Chernitsky.
      3. In December 1939, “removal” began - in small groups, from five to twenty people. The officers were led away under a reinforced convoy.
      4. From the third of April 1940, the mass “removal” of officers began.
      5. In one of the penultimate groups left the generals and some senior officers. When on May 12, 1940, I was leaving as part of a group of about 150 people, only twenty officers remained in the Kozelsky camp. They said that others should take our place. What happened in the Kozelsky camp afterwards, none of us knew. While in Gryazovets (near Vologda), we heard that the French were allegedly stationed in Kozelsk, allegedly escaping from German captivity. Where other groups of our officers were sent, we did not know. We were only surprised that in Poland letters were received only from the Gryazovets camp
    5. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 4 December 2017 16: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: anderson
      So the question of Katyn is a question of the lack of political will and the desire of both parties to put an end to this issue.


      Who screams the loudest - hold the thief ...?
      And Gorbachev and Yeltsin and Putin - confirmed - this is the work of the criminal regime of Stalin and the performers in the person of the NKVD.
      And the testimony of 1940.
      And it was easy to do this - they did not stand on ceremony and with their population and even their military were repressed and executed in large numbers.
      No frantically persist in their own.
      Burdenko would try to put forward a different version at that time ...
      At that time, people were in a hurry to abandon their repressed relatives, so as not to go after the stage, and for the Burdenko, Polish officers are by no means relatives.

      Having near the house Zolotaya Gorka - several mines littered with the corpses of Russian citizens who were shot without trial or by the NKVD in 1920-1953, I have no doubt that the true story of the execution of Polish officers by the NKVD on Stalin’s criminal order was declassified.
      I would like to put an end to the speculations of the Stalinophiles and even hold you accountable for denying the crimes of the Stalinist regime!
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 4 December 2017 16: 38 New
        +2
        Well, try to attract. The case will not even reach the trial, it will fall apart on the road due to the lack of corpus delicti. And then someone will go for slander, if we take the analysis between ordinary people. In front of the boy, step-by-step march into the Bundestag. Or Paris .. as well one fighter with the regime, straight into a tolerant and democratic madhouse where people like you found yourself in the Soviet era .. it’s a paradox, as long as the fighters against Stalinism in Russia are victims of the regime. then ..
      2. badens1111
        badens1111 4 December 2017 16: 40 New
        +2
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        And the testimony of 1940.
        And it was easy to do this - they did not stand on ceremony and with their population and even their military were repressed and executed in large numbers.

        Lying not tired? Goebbels applauds you.
    6. jhltyjyjctw
      jhltyjyjctw 14 December 2017 09: 02 New
      0
      Objectively and efficiently. So them, herring tail in the impudent muzzle.
  14. Stepan Kudinov
    Stepan Kudinov 30 November 2017 09: 48 New
    +4
    Goebbels calculated everything correctly, and today's half-crazy Poles are glad to try to sing along to the Natsiks. It's time to change the wheels.
  15. RUSS
    RUSS 30 November 2017 10: 03 New
    +5
    The main jamb of urapatriots is that they cannot and do not want to accept the black countries of the history of the USSR, the Polish, Soviet and Russian sides have unambiguously given an answer to the events of Katyn, so no, they will all the same dig around looking for a nonexistent German trace.
    1. Dym71
      Dym71 30 November 2017 11: 12 New
      13
      In this matter, truth is of primary interest, and your comment smacks of Akhijakism!
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. the lord
      the lord 1 December 2017 02: 05 New
      +2
      The non-Soviet and Gorbachev side confessed - the beggar flattered his creditors. The Soviet leadership did not recognize this fact. And re-read Anderson's comment with the four comments above. And in black pages the history of the USSR is full only in the last five years. About the ones that you write, they are bloody, but victorious. And from this they are in no way black - in the world of colonial empires there was no other way to win and no one could do otherwise. The difference was only in who shed the blood and for what. Our motivations were more than worthy and not ashamed of them
    4. Doliva63
      Doliva63 1 December 2017 17: 55 New
      +6
      It seems that the nickname is written in Russian letters, the flag is Vlasov, but I can’t write in Russian laughing Well, how to relate to such a "thinker"? Ugh, damn it.
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 1 December 2017 20: 47 New
        +3
        how to garbage. pack and discard ...
  16. avva2012
    avva2012 30 November 2017 10: 14 New
    +9
    Quote: RUSS
    The main jamb of urapatriots is that they cannot and do not want to accept the black countries of the history of the USSR, the Polish, Soviet and Russian sides have unambiguously given an answer to the events of Katyn, so no, they will all the same dig around looking for a nonexistent German trace.

    Drawing by the British cartoonist Leslie Illingworth: a cartoon about Katyn "Fake Russian atrocities." The newspaper Daily Mail.
  17. BAI
    BAI 30 November 2017 10: 38 New
    +3
    There is one problem - the EBN passed the execution order to the Poles, signed personally by Stalin. Not a single anti-Russian propaganda body doubts the authenticity of this document.
    On the other hand, the American Wahu submarine sank Japanese transport, which transported captured Indian Hindus (76 Japanese and 192 Indians). After that, the boat surfaced, and the crew shot all who escaped from machine guns: both the Japanese and the Indians. The boat commander received a US government award for this trip. And no one is making noise.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 30 November 2017 10: 50 New
      +9
      EBN gave the Poles an order for the execution, signed personally by Stalin.

      1. avva2012
        avva2012 30 November 2017 10: 55 New
        16
        In the second half of May 2010, Viktor Ilyukhin, a deputy of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, made a confidential oral statement about his personal participation in the fabrication of the fake "Beria letter No. 794 / B" by one of the main manufacturers of this fake. After an appropriate verification of the information received, V.I. Ilyukhin sent two official letters addressed to the head of the Communist Party faction in the State Duma, G. A. Zyuganov. T. Zyuganov G.A. Dear Gennady Andreyevich!
        I inform you, as the leader of the Communist Party and the deputy faction of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation in the State Duma, that on May 25 of 2010 of the year an unknown man called me and asked me to meet with me. However, he said that he could give information in connection with the investigation into the death of Polish officers in Katyn. This meeting took place on the same day. Unknown to me gave his last name, for the sake of his safety I will not disclose it yet, and said that he is directly involved in the production and forgery of archival documents, including the shooting of captured Poles. From his statements it follows that at the beginning of the 90 of the last century a group of their high-ranking specialists was created to forge archival documents relating to important events of the Soviet period. This group worked in the structure of the security service of Russian President B. Yeltsin. Geographically, it was located in the premises of the former cottages of workers of the Central Committee of the CPSU in the village. Upland. The work of the group members was well paid, they received food packages. In particular, he said that they had made a note to L. Beria in the Politburo of the CPSU (B.) Of March 1940 of the year, in which it was proposed to shoot more than 20 of thousands of Polish prisoners of war. At the same time, he demonstrated a mechanism for forging signatures of L. Beria, I. Stalin (I enclose copies of the sheets). I do not exclude that the Polish government was also presented with fake documents on the so-called Katyn case.
        He said that his group had made a fake note of Shelepin in the name of Khrushchev from 3 on March 1959. Colonel Klimov took a direct part in writing the text.
        According to him, the necessary order was delivered to Nagornoye, text for the document to be produced, or text to be included in the existing archival document, to produce the signature of one or another official under the text or on the text.
        According to him, a group of persons worked on the semantic content of the draft texts, which allegedly included the former head of the Russian Archive Pikhoy, close to the first Russian president, M. Poltoranin. The surname of the first deputy head of the President’s security service G. Rogozin was also named. The group worked in the village. Upland until 1996, and then it was moved to the village of Zarechye. He knows that employees of the 6 Institute (Molchanov) of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces worked in the same vein with archival documents. He claims that hundreds of fake historical documents were thrown into the Russian archives during this period and the same amount was falsified by entering distorted information into them, as well as by falsifying signatures. In support of the above, the interlocutor presented a number of forms of the 40-s of the last century, as well as fake impressions of stamps, signatures, etc. He promised to submit additional materials. At the same time, he stated that he often had an irony in presenting the public with various archival documents as reliable, although the mentioned group of people “had a hand” in falsifying them. Dear Gennady Andreyevich, I believe that there is some truth in the interlocutor’s story. I will refer, for example, to the fact that Russian scientists, in particular, Doctor of Historical Sciences M. Meltyukhov, have already proven the falsification of the "Testament of V.I. Lenin", documents related to the abdication of the throne of Nicholas II, and there are other similar facts.
        The question is more than important. It is associated with the complete discrediting of the significance of the Russian archives, the documents stored in them, and most importantly with the discrediting of our domestic history. Work on the study of this problem must be continued, to attract our historians to it. I think it is premature to raise the question with the Russian government. Reported at your discretion. V.I. Ilyukhin
        November 26.05.2010, XNUMX
        1. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 5 December 2017 14: 33 New
          +2
          Heard these stories.
          Ilyukhin apparently did not know the term examination.
          Since stamp ink from the 30s and from the 80s is very different in composition.
          And in addition, the oxidation of the stamp ink depends on the application period, by which it is quite possible to determine the age of the printing, not to mention paper and other nuances.

          Feed these fables about fakes, naive citizens, holy believers in the "spousal" Stalin.
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 6 December 2017 08: 23 New
            +2
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            Heard these stories.

            You have, yes, stories, Ilyukhin FACTS.
            And since you are not in a position to refute the FACTS, then your writings, against the facts of Ilyukhin, are malicious slander, both against Ilyukhin and the History of the country as a whole. Why are you doing this?
    2. MrK
      MrK 30 November 2017 22: 59 New
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      EBN gave the Poles an order for the execution, signed personally by Stalin.

      EBN transferred to the Poles copy these documents. After the EBN visit to Poland, the Poles asked for the originals. And they are still waiting.
  18. VladGashek
    VladGashek 30 November 2017 11: 10 New
    +9
    History is a policy overturned into the past. So wrote one of the philosophers. The story of the Katyn tragedy will always be politicized. Who shot why and why? No answers will be found to these questions. But the fate of the captured Red Army men of the 20s deserves careful historical research. Although they say they were not shot, but only killed by hunger and torture. I personally heard the stories of the maternal grandfather's younger brother. Russian rulers should serve the interests of the people, and not their selfish juggles.
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 30 November 2017 16: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: Vladgashek
      History is a policy overturned into the past. So wrote one of the philosophers. The story of the Katyn tragedy will always be politicized. Who shot why and why? No answers will be found to these questions. But the fate of the captured Red Army men of the 20s deserves careful historical research. Although they say they were not shot, but only killed by hunger and torture. I personally heard the stories of the maternal grandfather's younger brother. Russian rulers should serve the interests of the people, and not their selfish juggles.

      They wanted to swoop the red commanders of Warsaw in a hurry, got things done, how many of these miscalculations later killed the Red Army soldiers in the camps!
      1. the lord
        the lord 1 December 2017 02: 11 New
        +2
        Yes, here the former White Guard ensigns rather disappointed. who were captured and released on parole not to fight against the Soviets. And when the Polish campaign began, many thousands of them rushed into the ranks of the Red Army. But to see them in the family was written to be losers. Although the Poles to Warsaw gave ....
  19. mavrus
    mavrus 30 November 2017 11: 43 New
    10
    Quote: RUSS
    The main jamb of urapatriots is that they cannot and do not want to accept the black countries of the history of the USSR, the Polish, Soviet and Russian sides have unambiguously given an answer to the events of Katyn, so no, they will all the same dig around looking for a nonexistent German trace.

    About the black pages ...
    "Kolya from Urengoy" also "dug up a black page in our history" ... Cried and repented for the Wehrmacht’s innocently killed soldiers in the so-called Battle of Stalingrad ... And if someone wants to "eclipse Kolyushkin’s glory" with phrases about "nonexistent the German trail ", then this should be done not in VO, but somewhere in Berlin, Warsaw or Strasbourg ... And here everything is more or less up to date, we’ve been watching Polish attempts for more than a decade, at least somehow cutting down some money from us "for the innocently killed" Polish officers ...
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 30 November 2017 12: 05 New
      +2
      Do you have a historical background?
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 30 November 2017 12: 14 New
        13
        Quote: RUSS
        You

        You seem to have no education in the field of History, but there is education in the field of lies on the facts of History.
        Katyn is a hoax, shot by the Germans, Goebbels is very happy about you and your kind.
        1. RUSS
          RUSS 30 November 2017 16: 03 New
          +3
          Quote: badens1111
          Quote: RUSS
          You

          You seem to have no education in the field of History, but there is education in the field of lies on the facts of History.
          Katyn is a hoax, shot by the Germans, Goebbels is very happy about you and your kind.

          Based on your logic, would Goebbels be happy with Putin too?
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 30 November 2017 17: 49 New
            +8
            Quote: RUSS
            Based on your logic, would Goebbels be happy with Putin too?

            Based on my logic, the President’s advisers are awful, not understanding or specifically advising him on the steps, which are then given to him and the country by problems, but the fact that you, or rather you, Goebbels is happy as a nationalist, yes, there is no doubt about it.
            1. RUSS
              RUSS 30 November 2017 20: 23 New
              +1
              Quote: badens1111
              Quote: RUSS
              Based on your logic, would Goebbels be happy with Putin too?

              Based on my logic, the President’s advisers are awful, not understanding or specifically advising him on the steps, which are then given to him and the country by problems, but the fact that you, or rather you, Goebbels is happy as a nationalist, yes, there is no doubt about it.

              Deflection counted !!!!
              1. the lord
                the lord 1 December 2017 02: 13 New
                +3
                And you have a big stick, that you are all using Putin as a shield, he can take offense, he will come and heap for indecent attitude towards the head of state)))) I just ask you a question about Putin- Do you have a historical background from Putin?
                1. Thunderbolt
                  Thunderbolt 1 December 2017 02: 35 New
                  +4
                  Quote: znavel
                  Does Putin have a historical background?

                  And this is not at all important when in his direct submission the AP (Presidential Administration) which has access to any academician. But these are trifles when the President (and part-time former head of the FSB (KGB-NKVD) is included in any archive of this organization ( where the academician will not even be allowed to enter). So "education" is just a husk in comparison with His competence.
                  1. the lord
                    the lord 2 December 2017 00: 26 New
                    +3
                    Yeah, you can get into the archive, but to fully understand the meaning of many such documents, you need special perseverance and a prepared mind. Observing bureaucracy and necessarily listing many points, many documents resemble transfers from the Old Testament when someone gave birth to someone or promised something to someone — you read this to the end and urgently need a brain for diagnosis, because the convolutions twist into nodules.
                    In short, it’s not enough to enter the archives, you still need to be able to use them. And therefore it is very important that a person has a suitable education, for example, historical.
                  2. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 2 December 2017 00: 51 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    So "education" is just a husk in comparison with His competence.

                    Yeah, he recently said about the chief designer of missiles, who committed suicide after the agreement on the elimination of the INF. All messed up, competent.
                  3. badens1111
                    badens1111 3 December 2017 09: 10 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    So "education" is just a husk in comparison with His competence.

                    Yes .. it’s strange that he doesn’t know this .. "From Joseph Goebbels' diary.

                    "April 17, 1943.

                    The drama in Katyn takes on the size of a gigantic political event. And we use it according to all the rules of art. In any case, these ten or twelve thousand slaughtered Poles may have deserved it because they were instigators of the war, but now they should be used to familiarize the European peoples with what Bolshevism represents. "

                    "May 8, 1943. Unfortunately, German ammunition was found in Katyn’s affairs. In any case, this find must be kept strictly secret; if it becomes known to our enemies, then the Katyn case will fail."

                    "Our people should be in Katyn earlier, so that everything would be prepared during the arrival of the Red Cross, and that during excavations they would not come across things that do not correspond to our line."

                    "September 29, 1943." Unfortunately, we had to leave Katyn as well. There is no doubt that the Bolsheviks will soon “discover” that it was we who shot twelve thousand Polish officers. This story, undoubtedly, will later cause us trouble. The councils will do so to dig out a certain number of graves and subsequently hold us responsible for this. "

                    Polish historians are still silent about these Goebbels diaries and will remain silent forever. And local accomplices, compradors, will also always accuse us of Goebbels provocation.
              2. badens1111
                badens1111 1 December 2017 07: 41 New
                +3
                Quote: RUSS
                Deflection counted

                Your?
                Of course. Not from a great mind, however ..
            2. RUSS
              RUSS 2 December 2017 13: 56 New
              0
              Quote: badens1111
              Quote: RUSS
              Based on your logic, would Goebbels be happy with Putin too?

              Based on my logic, the President’s advisers are awful, not understanding or specifically advising him on the steps, which are then given to him and the country by problems, but the fact that you, or rather you, Goebbels is happy as a nationalist, yes, there is no doubt about it.

              That is, maybe Petro Poroshenko is a normal man, and his advisers are bad? So?
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 2 December 2017 14: 45 New
                +2
                Quote: RUSS
                Petro Poroshenko is a normal man

                And this is your Petya, with such advisers from Natsik, like you. Do you have anything to object to?
                1. RUSS
                  RUSS 2 December 2017 17: 56 New
                  0
                  Quote: badens1111
                  Quote: RUSS
                  Petro Poroshenko is a normal man

                  And this is your Petya, with such advisers from Natsik, like you. Do you have anything to object to?

                  Do you want to move out of the answer? Answering a question with a question? I’ll ask again - do you think Putin admitted that our Poles were shot in Katyn at the suggestion of his advisers? So you wrote earlier? So maybe Poroshenko is a normal person, but his advisers are to blame for everything?
                  1. badens1111
                    badens1111 3 December 2017 09: 07 New
                    +2
                    Quote: RUSS
                    So maybe Poroshenko is a normal person, but his advisers are to blame for everything?

                    For you, yes, Poroshenko is normal, you are the Nazis, all like him are "normal."
                    The Poles, shedding tears about Katyn, forget that many Soviet Red Army soldiers who survived in Polish captivity after 1921 (and only twenty of eighty survived them) became military personnel of the Red Army and NKVD units and were recognized among Polish prisoners of war in 1939 officers of those who tortured and killed several tens of thousands of their comrades in concentration camps in the year 20.
                    Is this not what the great Polish poet, Nobel laureate Ceslav Milos feared, when he wrote:

                    "Do not touch the Katyn graves,

                    otherwise it will stir

                    the ashes of Edwabne and Auschwitz,

                    Jewish tombstones of Parchev, Lublin and Keltsev

                    and coals flare up in the wind

                    Warsaw ghetto! "?

                    For ignorant readers, we recall that in July 1941, the Poles, taking advantage of the fact that the Soviet troops left the town, drove about two thousand local Jews into a huge shed and burned them alive, and in the cities of Parczew, Lublin and Kielce, Jewish pogroms occurred in Poland already after the war - in 1946-1947.
                    http://zavtra.ru/blogs/rossiya_i_oklahoma
                    1. RUSS
                      RUSS 3 December 2017 09: 24 New
                      +1
                      Quote: badens1111
                      For you, yes, Poroshenko is normal, you are the Nazis, all like him are "normal."

                      Why did you write me to the Nazis? You are funny! And Gunpowder is not my president, but with a direct answer to my question, you still moved out, it turns out that you are a hollow cow who is not responsible for your words, you are one of those who say, “the king is good, the boyars are bad”! Typical urapatriot!
                      1. the lord
                        the lord 5 December 2017 03: 14 New
                        +4
                        Okay, okay, don’t hassle the little one. Go to your mother and blow your nose in a good way, otherwise you will go on an uneasy hour here to uncover the matter of identifying a provocative network of putensky shiguns, standing for the king)))))
                        Your "direct" question just strongly resembles a gyrus of a very stupid person. To this and dumb))))
                  2. the lord
                    the lord 5 December 2017 03: 10 New
                    +2
                    And you let us immediately ask the question, and who is your dad? To later claim that yours is stronger and will beat him)))) You’re the king of logic, if Putin has bad advisers, it means that everyone has bad advisers)))))
      2. anderson
        anderson 30 November 2017 13: 43 New
        +8
        the black pages of history hastily cobbled together in 90 EBN and the democratic shobla in fact turn out to be, well, to put it mildly, not completely black. We have been rubbed about the millions of executed NKVD for 10 years. "The best minds" like Solzhenitsyn broadcast about tens of millions. In fact, it turned out that for all the time from the end of the civilian age, it was 53 years old. According to the official data of the USSR Prosecutor General’s Office of 1956, for 34 years in the period 1921-1954. 3 people were convicted of counter-revolutionary activities, of which 777 were killed. However, Khrushchev did not mention or publish these data during his speech. According to Pykhalov, these figures are incomplete. According to his calculations, in the period from 380 to 642, 980 people were convicted of counter-revolutionary and grave crimes against the state. Of these, 1921 were sentenced to death, only in 1953-4. it was 063 people. In contrast to this anti-communist invented data, Zemskov cites his figures in accordance with the original sources from the “Central State Archive of the October Revolution, the highest organs of state power and state administration of the USSR” (TsGAOR USSR) - he names the number of prisoners who were in 306-799 in labor camps, penal colonies and prisons. In 455, it was 1937 people, i.e., 1938% of the USSR population at that time (681 million). . This is for 962 years, despite the fact that this includes four years of war.
        Now, in Katyn, the Polish side has worked out a much more serious issue. She has written dozens of scientific articles and monographs on this subject. Moreover, the arguments there are quite serious, and the questions are not raised at the level of patriots from high school. There, grants are paid for the Katyn theme, and medals are given. And we have a handful of enthusiasts fighting like a fish on ice without any support from the state, but in spite of everything it finds evidence that destroys the version of the Poles. There are some top-level agreements along the way to support the Polish version, the deadline of which has not yet expired. After all, it will be determined who shot in fact is not just easy but elementary. But they do not want to do this.
        1. MrK
          MrK 30 November 2017 23: 02 New
          +4
          Quote: anderson
          3 777 380 people were convicted of counter-revolutionary activities, of which 642 980 were killed.

          Not killed, but sentenced. In 1938 alone, 38 thousand people were released from the death penalty.
  20. parusnik
    parusnik 30 November 2017 14: 35 New
    +8
    Mu Diazvon,
    I'll have to knock - knock, I’m not ashamed of your crying ...
    .

    I didn’t swear or fight with you ... to make peace ... smile I didn’t come to the war, but I will not hide, the armored train is on the siding ... smile..And returning to the first phrase of your post .. Do not be shy ... smile ... God, even the internet write denunciations ... and then they criticized Stalin for repressions ... and administrators at the same time ... laughing This is a rumor is rumored ... Has nothing to do with your comment ...
    1. Mu Dialer
      Mu Dialer 30 November 2017 15: 41 New
      +1
      You merged, it’s understandable - you have no arguments ...
      I just didn’t have to go over to my personality ...
      And then: as he comes around, he will respond ...
      What are the denunciations? "Do not judge others by yourself."
      Although the rules of the forum and you should not violate ..
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 30 November 2017 21: 18 New
        +6
        ...
        What are the denunciations?
        Mu Dialer .. It will be necessary to knock - knock, I’m not ashamed of your crying.
        I just didn’t have to switch to my personality
        ..
        ... Of course you and the person, and even what kind of person ... are fully developed ... You don’t need to go over, you yourself will go over anyone ... with your aggressiveness ..
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 1 December 2017 04: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: parusnik You and the person, and even what ... comprehensively developed ... with your aggressiveness ..

          1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Doliva63
          Doliva63 1 December 2017 18: 10 New
          +5
          Do not feed the troll. Do not stoop to his level.
  21. av58
    av58 30 November 2017 14: 50 New
    +4
    Different particulars like the presence of insignia and cockades on the clothes of those shot, and German weapons, I omit, it was a long time ago, it could be different. In my opinion, several issues are significant: 1) how many were actually shot, since besides Anders' army there was also the 2nd Polish army, also equipped with captured Polish soldiers and officers; and 2) WHY only 3 camps were shot while there were several tens of thousands of captured Polish soldiers and officers in the depths of the Soviet Union, especially considering that among them were not hiding anti-Soviet sentiments, as reported to Beria?
    1. Lev Bronsch
      Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 11: 18 New
      +2
      I will add - about 600 more Poles were allowed to go home in 000-39, also without consequences. But if you apply the classic question to howl about the “Katyn execution” - who benefits? Everything immediately falls into place! It is beneficial to the Poles, Germans, Anglo-Saxons - according to their logic, to pay Russia and repent, repent and pay, but they will find a reason, well, they won’t come up with it. That's all!!
  22. EnGenius
    EnGenius 30 November 2017 15: 13 New
    +4
    I’ll add on my own, but the facts are from third parties. My father’s childhood friend’s father worked in the KGB until the end of his life, and supposedly when he was a cadet, they were sent from Moscow to "gain". So, according to his father, he learned this story about the Poles in the early 80s, before it began to be raised again in the wake of publicity. According to this KGB veteran, they were sent under Smolensk to strengthen the perimeters, where Polish officers were allegedly shot.

    Personally, my attitude to this, if they shot their thousands, then the Polish "uncomfortable" officers could also be eliminated. The reasons could be in an unstable situation before the planned war with Finland, the demands to free them and other reasons. To agree or not is a political and state issue. In fact, Gorbachev confirmed this. And the point.
    1. anderson
      anderson 30 November 2017 20: 04 New
      +5
      Not knowing what the father of a friend of your childhood strengthened there, but I personally, in the 9th grade of a high school in Smolensk, went to Katyn to lay flowers at the monument to Polish officers who were shot by the Nazis. This was in 1979. Polish President Wojciech Jaruzelski came to Katyn and we were attracted to laying wreaths at the monument. A wooden fence stood in the forest from the Vitebsk highway, on the other three sides the passage was clear.
      Nearby was a pioneer camp and a sanatorium building, but not the Ministry of Internal Affairs, as many people write .. Yakovlev slipped Yakovlev an alleged Katyn envelope with fakes in the form of Shelepin’s letter and Beria’s note which even the Poles are embarrassed to use as an argument, and Gorby confirmed all types. But as it comes to the recognition of the execution by the judicial authorities of the Russian Federation, the prosecutor’s office goes into denial. In general, with the collapse of the USSR, slop was poured onto the country by everyone. But when you start talking with an ardent supporter of the Goebels version and ask questions that are inconvenient to ask, there are no answers, only discussions about "bloody gebene alone." During the French bourgeois revolution,% of opponents killed in relation to the population of France was more than shot in the USSR in relation to the population of the USSR and this does not prevent the French from celebrating the day of the Bastille (they are Europeans and in their history do not spoil either small or large in differences from our dermocrats and liberalists)
      1. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 18: 50 New
        +3
        Once my boss said - the logic is iron woman, you can’t go around it and you won’t go around. And then I was convinced of this many times. You can heap anything and at first glance completely believable. But it is enough for a person who knows the logic to begin to analyze in detail this, as everything begins to crumble.
        Weapons in Germany were bought for foreign currency and were quite scarce. It was bought for high authorities and scouts. Cartridges, too, were not purchased for rubles, and it will be greasy to spend them on Poles. Farther. In almost every occupied village, and the Smolensk region is by no means an exception, there were villains who went to serve the Germans. Do you think they would be ashamed to tell their masters about the mass execution and burial. I doubt very much that they would not say anything, curry out as much as they would like and they would definitely say. And the Germans would immediately raise a howl about this, because this is great propaganda material. But neither in 1941 nor in 1942 they were silent. And the only reason for this silence was that the corpses were still fresh. And in 1943 they were already divided up and now look for the date of execution. To do this, we already needed very good specialists who were able to take into account the characteristics of the burial area, groundwater, etc. In addition, it is not in the customs of Russia that the Tsarist, that the Soviet to kill prisoners, this is not our mentality. The leadership of the USSR was not idiots and knew perfectly well that the war ahead with the Germans and the Poles, with all their dislike for Russia and the Bolsheviks in particular, was still very useful to us, the Germans and their enemies. Well, German weapons, cartridges, paper ropes and insignia, all this goes in one outline. Doubt who killed the Poles can only.
    2. your1970
      your1970 30 November 2017 20: 06 New
      +5
      Quote: engenius
      The reasons could be in an unstable environment before belay planned belay the war with Finland, the demands to free them and other reasons.

      -Nothing that they were shot in any case AFTER war with Finland ???? belay belay fool fool
      But nothing - that their no one demanded to release them(given the fact that England did not even declare war on the USSR)?belay belay fool fool fool
    3. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 1 December 2017 22: 28 New
      +3
      Quote: engenius
      Personally, my attitude to this, if they shot their thousands, then the Polish "uncomfortable" officers could also be eliminated. The reasons could be in an unstable situation before the planned war with Finland, the demands to free them and other reasons.

      Strange as it may seem, the Finnish war was already over.
      1. EnGenius
        EnGenius 16 December 2017 01: 21 New
        0
        Yes, it ended in the same March .... Obviously, the decision on possible executions was made earlier, when the Red Army’s positions in Finland, although winning, were at any moment awaiting the entry of the “allies” - including the Fascist Germany. In this case, the prisoners of the Poles, who for some reason were not taken further away, could play against the USSR.
    4. Lev Bronsch
      Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 11: 23 New
      +2
      Personally, you can put your opinion in your personal ass and there he gets to know him)). It is unfortunate that your father, after listening to the Polish nonsense, did not ask them - but how can they be shot in the spring of 1940. cartridges. sleeves to which they began to produce in the summer of 1940. - By the way, are the materials of the Goebbels commission? And where did the Soviet Union get so many German weapons from quite specific manufacturers, and generally where did the paper twine come from in the USSR, and why did the NKVD violate all shooting instructions, including the insignia on the shape of the shot, and why were several supposedly shot clearly seen after the war in Poland? And isn’t it strange to believe the Germans so recklessly to believe the Germans? What, your dad was weak to ask such questions? Was it sweeter to lick a Polish ass along with a labeled traitor ?? Here is the same (((
      1. anderson
        anderson 4 December 2017 20: 32 New
        0
        I will strengthen the lice impressions, 100 meters from the grave No. 9 by local residents, a pit with suitcases of Polish officers' belongings was discovered and demarcated in 1997-8, so there were hundreds of orders and medals, as well as signs of Polish regiments and military schools. This is when the NKVD drove to be shot with things? And among the things was a German table lighter with a swastika and an eagle. How did she get to the Poles before 1941? Wehrmacht did not seem to indulge in trophies of the Poles, and in the Soviet camp such a thing was hardly left with the owner.
      2. EnGenius
        EnGenius 16 December 2017 01: 26 New
        0
        And have you personally seen these sleeves? As if all the shells were dug up there and not a single one was left? But what, the front did not pass there and the Germans did not shoot there, like the Soviet wars during the offensive? These shells could be dug in a neighboring meadow - but here they will prove the evidence with foam. This is all stuffing on the fan. There is nothing intelligible, but the fact that officials are silent is a reason to think that no one considers these executions to be "wrong."
        1. EnGenius
          EnGenius 16 December 2017 01: 31 New
          0
          All your attempts to prove something on virtual fingers are so ridiculous that they seem shameful. Only it is shameful not that someone is trying to prove the guilt or innocence of the Soviet side, but your approaches to evidence are shameful. Me comrade Gorbachev is not at all impressed, as are the subsequent ones. But to fortify every one that does not do honor.
  23. parusnik
    parusnik 30 November 2017 15: 43 New
    +6
    Mu Diazvon,
    This Sailboat said goodbye to me,
    ... No, I didn’t say goodbye to you, we’ll disperse .. this is not goodbye .. I meant the barricades .. which I indicated in the post .. my “barricades” are the conclusions of the Burdenko commission, your “barricades” are the conclusions of the Nazi commission. . smile You pretended not to understand and began to wave my pen .. Leaving, leave .. smile
  24. faiver
    faiver 30 November 2017 15: 49 New
    +1
    everything is written correctly
  25. RUSS
    RUSS 30 November 2017 15: 56 New
    +2
    Yes .... how many more paranoids and people in the country who believe in conspiracy theory! Do you really believe that today's government will go to such a monstrous forgery? Turn on the brain cheers patriots, Ale !!!!
    1. vvvjak
      vvvjak 30 November 2017 16: 59 New
      13
      In 2011, Polish historians unearthed the graves in the cemetery of Vladimir-Volynsky (Ukraine), in the hope of discovering the “Ukrainian Katyn”. As a result, they found 100% evidence of the “work” of the Germans (in 1941) and medallions of 2 Poles, whom the NKVD “shot” in 1940 in Medny (Tver Region), according to the Gorbachev lists. Details: http://old.archeo-news.ru/2013/02/blog-post_5046.
      html? m = 0
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 30 November 2017 18: 19 New
        +8
        and in Katyn documents were found of those killed who, even after the war, lived for themselves so calmly .. and are listed in the list of executed.
    2. the lord
      the lord 1 December 2017 02: 20 New
      0
      Why yell like that? You pick up the phone, dial the number and talk calmly))))) In the course of all of us, paranoia only became interested in you))))
    3. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 1 December 2017 11: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: RUSS
      Turn on the brain cheers patriots, Ale !!!!


      Hurray-protroth, that’s what exists to believe everything that is ordered to believe in him.
      They don’t need a brain.
      Why think? When "right" to hesitate along with the party line.
      1. the lord
        the lord 2 December 2017 00: 28 New
        +3
        Then read the comments of Anderson above the branch and try to refute them - show the sophistication of intelligence, you’re self-absorbing ...
  26. nivander
    nivander 30 November 2017 17: 25 New
    13
    the testimony of Polish officers from the prisoners of the camp in Liozno very much spoils the picture. to the protests and cries of the gentry of the gentry .. When the army of Anders began to form in 1941, these officers also got there and reported all the circumstances of the case. Their testimonies were immediately classified, and they themselves were declared ... traitors (they were executed by the NKVD and they were few of the fact that Aki Lazar Duc was resurrected still carry that). By the way, the testimonies of these gentlemen were extinguished in Nuremberg and, if desired, they can be found and put into the kindergarten Dudam and Vashchikovsky ... if the gentlemen of the renegade Yakovliv yes Mishka Marked
  27. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 30 November 2017 17: 39 New
    +2
    novel66,
    Then it’s sausage .... to the garlic (!) ... and salsa with layers of meat .... the bacon is called! Oh, what’s the little thing about it! fellow Do not forget the burner!
    1. Cossack 471
      Cossack 471 30 November 2017 18: 55 New
      +7
      Yes . history is a hard thing. especially if you try to manipulate her. In the owls. time not to spoil the friendship of fraternal peoples. never thought about that. that the Belarusian village of Khatyn burned the 118th schutzmanchaft. formed from Selyuk in Volhynia. they were in German uniform. And our government is silent. because yes it’s not a pity. let alone strangers. Moreover, all the others painstakingly save paper. so that during the next turmoil in Russia to present an invoice for payment. This is our guarantors forgive everyone. and they’ll tear us off. even far-fetched debts
  28. Reklastik
    Reklastik 30 November 2017 18: 36 New
    +5
    The Soviet Union did not sign the Geneva Convention for a long time
    - yes, but on November 25, 1941, the USSR, in response to a request from the United States of America, announced that, without signing the Geneva Convention, it would solidify with all its provisions and principles, except for one paragraph of Article 9, which declares the separation of prisoners of war on a national basis and this contrary to the Constitution of the USSR "- Egor Yakovlev," War of extermination. "
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 30 November 2017 19: 15 New
      +3
      I will add that the USSR adhered to another document, an earlier prisoner of the Republic of Ingushetia. I do not remember. What was it called.
  29. MaksoMelan
    MaksoMelan 30 November 2017 19: 13 New
    +6
    "What could have caused the Soviet command to execute the execution of 12 thousand Polish prisoners of war precisely in the Smolensk region? It is impossible to give an answer to this question." historian Yuri Zhukov believes that those killed were builders of one of Hitler's bunkers! And it seems like they killed such builders! It's a secret place.
    1. anderson
      anderson 30 November 2017 20: 22 New
      +7
      Where did you get the figure of those executed in the Smolensk region in 12000? According to the German and Sovetsk commissions, there are about 3000 of them there, if memory serves, according to Polish 4421. According to the fake given out as a note to Beria and the decision of the Politburo, a total of 14400 people were shot in Medny Starobelsk and Katyn. Moreover, no mass graves were found either in copper or in Starobelsk. Although Starobelsk is Ukraine and there you can dig through everything now but do not dig. And the only place where the mass shooting is confirmed is Katyn. But who shot here is a big question.
  30. igoryok1984
    igoryok1984 30 November 2017 20: 31 New
    +5
    There is a version that the Germans shot the Poles after they used the Berenhalle at the construction of Hitler’s main headquarters near Smolensk. And then, as in all similar cases, they were destroyed as unnecessary witnesses
  31. Vladimir SHajkin
    Vladimir SHajkin 30 November 2017 21: 35 New
    +1
    A politician is different from just a citizen in that he thinks in large categories.
    From 1985 to 2000, there were no world-class politicians in the leadership of the USSR and Russia. They thought about their personal welfare and, as a result of opportunistic messages, considered political costs a lesser evil. They were mistaken because they did not understand the global nature of the situation and multi-path politics.
    It is impossible to surrender the interests of the state for the sake of certain political prerequisites.
  32. Antor
    Antor 30 November 2017 23: 40 New
    +4
    Who gave the go-ahead in an instant that turned our country into universal evil for Poles, Balts and other dishonesty with Russophobic stuffing .... !! ??? We ourselves are to blame for all the troubles of such a plan, if we ourselves admit it for the sake of any momentary benefits, it is the work of Yeltsin’s traitors liberals in any way to become theirs in the West, where they exported and export stolen, “honestly” rich riches of Russia. It was they and their “historical Judas” who needed this incomprehensible and unconfirmed repentance, and what did these Judas achieve !!! ????
    Is it from here that we have such Kolenki, who are so sorry for the German fascists, who apparently destroyed in their sleep 27 million of our fellow citizens of the then USSR, having come to us with unprecedented evil and violence and the fact that 60 thousand of our soldiers and officers died for the liberation of Poland from this plague Poles are not interested even today, demolishing the monuments to these soldiers, so Poland repents to our liberal traitors in response .... !!!! Bastards who have settled in the "elite" can cover any lie, and we know grave examples of the consequences of such a lie, one of which is the lie of recognition of the execution of Polish officers in Katyn by NKVD officers. not fascists
  33. Valentin spagis
    Valentin spagis 1 December 2017 02: 44 New
    +1
    The assumption that the Germans shot Polish officers looks somewhat fantastic. Katyn is located many hundreds of kilometers east of the Polish border and it is not clear why the Germans needed to drive so many prisoners to the East. To have problems with them? But for the Red Army, this was the usual direction.
    1. your1970
      your1970 1 December 2017 09: 00 New
      +5
      Quote: Valentin Spagis
      it is not clear why the Germans needed to drive so many prisoners to the East.
      - they captured them REPEAT-when the retreat of our troops in 1941, the camps did not have time to evacuate ....
      at least read the article
    2. Lev Bronsch
      Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 11: 28 New
      +2
      Yes, my friend, moreover, patented. with which I congratulate you !!
  34. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 05: 14 New
    +1
    Another "Fomenkovism", only on the topic of a new history. Already the documents of the NKVD were declassified, and admitted guilt, and apologized. Why print these nonsense? Yes, it was a matter of being shot, badly, wrongly, we live on. The Poles, it was the case, they also drove Soviet prisoners into the coffin. And once, I remember, having entered into a criminal conspiracy with the Cossacks, Moscow was desecrated by its presence. Everything was and whether it will still be, life is harsh. But why should these childish excuses of authorship of our die-hard to publish on a reputable site? Even the Darkest acknowledged this fact. For such articles, you need to start a separate section, and bring everything down like building pyramids by aliens and other Ren TV.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 06: 34 New
      +2
      In order to conceal his crimes and correct his tarnished reputation, one must baldly blame the other. So always did and will do those with a snout in the fluff. This is not Fomenkovism and not Ren TV. This is not just empty, as some people think, moral reasoning, it is money. Look how it turns out. In recent years, appeals to various courts have begun to be practiced among European neighbors in order to obtain compensation for certain grievances suffered. Everything is like in a communal kitchen. Although, this is what I’m talking about, after all, the supermen live there, not like us scoops, s. In order to understand this whole thing, it is necessary to consider each participant individually. Well, with Great Germany, everything is clear. They themselves are white and fluffy, they were forced to attack, otherwise the Bolsheviks themselves would have attacked them (Rezun would not let them lie), and therefore it is beneficial for these very Soviets to present them as fiends of hell. Moreover, in the West, then there were only rumors about the extermination of Jews, and what the Soviet Government says about the atrocities of the Nazis in the occupied territories, somehow, apparently, this West is not impressive. Notice those rumors that are also known in the Reich propaganda apparatus. And here, as if by chance, the Katyn case pops up. Now Poland. She was as if she had not attacked anyone. It seems to be, but why should she fuss? Yeah, for sure, and who took a piece from Czechoslovakia to himself? And who made plans for a victorious war with Germany and dreamed of watering their horses in the Elbe River? Again, the organization of provocations with human casualties on the border of the USSR, this does not count. Peaceful, free Poland. My God, what did bloody fascists and Bolsheviks do with her ?! Ah ah ah. Not, of course, you can joke about the 1612 of the year, but you can’t get any compensation from them anyway, but you can pay for the "brutally mortified" officers. And under the guise of recognizing Bolshevism as a criminal, anti-human ideology, on an international scale (at home, they have already done everything, prepared), to have very small preferences.
      Already the documents of the NKVD were declassified, and admitted guilt, and apologized.

      Do not be lazy, read above about how they recognized, apologized and what quality the documents were thrown to the Poles. Do you think that our leaders, in spite of all their liberalism, do not understand how this could end with a “guilty plea”? By the way: "The Polish Institute of National Remembrance officially announced the loss of the so-called" Katyn documents. " This was reported by the historian Alexander Dyukov, another 11 / 07 / 2008. http://www.rus-obr.ru/opinions/208 Do not know, found, no? And, if you didn’t find it, maybe with such pieces of paper, is it somehow inconvenient to turn to the Courts? The ECHR, it seems, contains lawsuits from 15 citizens of Poland, but so far citizens, not the government. And here’s what the ECHR states: “The court was struck by the apparent unwillingness of the Russian authorities to recognize the reality of the Katyn execution. So, the Russian military courts continued to argue, contrary to established historical facts, that the applicants' relatives“ disappeared ”in the Soviet camps. According to the Court, "he was an example of callous disregard for the applicants and an attempt to deliberately obscure the circumstances of the Katyn execution." http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/767534.html ECHR and Katyn. Something like that, and you say Ren TV.
      1. your1970
        your1970 1 December 2017 09: 04 New
        +3
        I confirm - all in the name of the dough, and do not care that Europe to "the right to ..." ..
        It’s interesting, is it possible to appeal to the courts of the relatives of our victims, who saved Krakow, for example, demanding compensation for the saved property?
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 1 December 2017 09: 50 New
          +2
          Krakow, for example, demanding compensation for saved property?

          good Good idea! It will be necessary to return to her when ours come.
      2. Dimmih
        Dimmih 1 December 2017 09: 27 New
        0
        Dear Interlocutor, everyone believes those sources that he believes: someone Fomenko, someone Sakharov. The father of the nation is not the kind of person who works with a lightning rod (take someone else's thing).
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 1 December 2017 09: 48 New
          +2
          And where, you saw in my comment, at least something about faith? Any crime has a motive and the motive of the Germans looks more presentable than the one that the non-Polish people present to us, "they say, this is all because of the savage nature of the Stalinist regime." In one case, there is the construction of a secret facility, and in the other case, some emotions. What, we menopause women? It is necessary to respect yourself, in my opinion.
      3. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 19: 01 New
        +1
        I’m interested in this. Poland is clearly not the boat on which it sat and sailed away. Germany, which is its neighbor, has very big complaints against Poland. And one must think that over time the Germans will remember the Poles and Silesia and the murder of German citizens and so on. And when they begin to beat the Poles, and they will do it without fail, then where will the panam go.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 1 December 2017 19: 55 New
          +2
          At one time, when the Soviet Union was not in our country, not in the socialist camp, there were no conflicts on the basis of who owes what to whom. Performs roughly the same role for its satellites, now the United States. I think Poland, hopes that the big brother will be eternal and will not be affected by the problem of geography, that is, adherence to the borders of Germany on the one hand and, possibly, Russia on the other.
  35. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 10: 15 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    What, we menopause women? It is necessary to respect yourself, in my opinion.

    I don’t know you, so I’m not sure. This time. To use such stinking expressions is the last thing. These are two. Do not agree with the interlocutor, argue without using gynecological terms. We are not on the Censor, do not forget.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 11: 09 New
      +2
      Believe me, this is not a gynecological term; it refers more to endocrinology. It implies hormonal changes in the female body, which lead to emotional disorders, including. This expression, to you personally, did not apply, because, your emotions were not in the comment. It refers more to those commentators who hold the opinion of the "bloodshed of the Bolsheviks" in any matters concerning the USSR. I was not on the "censor", I try to comply with sanitary standards.
  36. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 11: 19 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    Believe me, this is not a gynecological term; it refers more to endocrinology. It implies hormonal changes in the female body, which lead to emotional disorders, including. This expression, to you personally, did not apply, because, your emotions were not in the comment. It refers more to those commentators who hold the opinion of the "bloodshed of the Bolsheviks" in any matters concerning the USSR. I was not on the "censor", I try to comply with sanitary standards.

    I believe, I believe, but I object to the use of such terms. For our part, we need to remain human: if a dog barks at you, you are unlikely to bark at her in response, right? And I consider the use of such terms unnecessary and inappropriate even to the obsessed. As for the bloody and bloodless Bolsheviks ..... Kgm .. There were more bloody, and less. As said Mao-rifle gives rise to power. If you want power, take a rifle. Nothing has changed since ancient times except the murder weapon.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 11: 40 New
      +3
      It’s not in particular people, there are people, but in ideology. They try to inspire us, not even that individual Bolsheviks were not ideal, to put it mildly, but that this ideology, in general, should not exist. For these purposes, anything is used, any crimes are hushed up and whitewashed on the one hand and invented or exaggerated for the other. If only we could continue the conversation about the burnt and tortured old people, children, women during the occupation of part of the USSR, no, only “repressions” and “millions of raped Germans” are said. Here, to the heap, and similar Katyn. There is only one goal, to distort all the achievements of the USSR, because it cannot be that without a market economy something can be built. And for this, we need to shift our attention to emotions from our minds and stuff them with horror until a steady thought forms in our heads, Bolshevism = death. So that no one would have the idea to repeat something similar in the countries of "democracy". Everything should be, as always. A thin layer of parasites on top of the food chain.
      1. Dimmih
        Dimmih 1 December 2017 13: 02 New
        0
        Quote: avva2012
        It’s not in particular people, there are people, but in ideology. They try to inspire us, not even that individual Bolsheviks were not ideal, to put it mildly, but that this ideology, in general, should not exist. For these purposes, anything is used, any crimes are hushed up and whitewashed on the one hand and invented or exaggerated for the other. If only we could continue the conversation about the burnt and tortured old people, children, women during the occupation of part of the USSR, no, only “repressions” and “millions of raped Germans” are said. Here, to the heap, and similar Katyn. There is only one goal, to distort all the achievements of the USSR, because it cannot be that without a market economy something can be built. And for this, we need to shift our attention to emotions from our minds and stuff them with horror until a steady thought forms in our heads, Bolshevism = death. So that no one would have the idea to repeat something similar in the countries of "democracy". Everything should be, as always. A thin layer of parasites on top of the food chain.

        But the skill neatly move the topic you will not refuse! The conversation was that terms like “menopausal women” are more acceptable for forums like Censor, but not here. What and I will subscribe!
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 1 December 2017 13: 20 New
          +2
          The conversation was that terms like “menopausal women” are more acceptable for forums like Censor, but not here.

          You, determine the topic of conversation, it turns out? belay Ah, I forgot what I mean. All spy on the topic "Who shot Polish officers in Katyn?" And I answer yours:
          For such articles, you need to start a separate section, and bring everything down like building pyramids by aliens and other Ren TV.
          Sorry, I was wrong, now the topic of menopause is here under my strictest ban, it is discussed only on the site, "The World of the Doctor", I got a little troubles.
    2. long in stock.
      long in stock. 1 December 2017 20: 56 New
      +2
      why .... here sometimes a mongrel barks so I reply to her so bark that she squeals with a screech .. so it all depends on the situation
  37. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 12: 30 New
    +1
    Quote: avva2012
    It’s not in particular people, there are people, but in ideology. They try to inspire us, not even that individual Bolsheviks were not ideal, to put it mildly, but that this ideology, in general, should not exist. For these purposes, anything is used, any crimes are hushed up and whitewashed on the one hand and invented or exaggerated for the other. If only we could continue the conversation about the burnt and tortured old people, children, women during the occupation of part of the USSR, no, only “repressions” and “millions of raped Germans” are said. Here, to the heap, and similar Katyn. There is only one goal, to distort all the achievements of the USSR, because it cannot be that without a market economy something can be built. And for this, we need to shift our attention to emotions from our minds and stuff them with horror until a steady thought forms in our heads, Bolshevism = death. So that no one would have the idea to repeat something similar in the countries of "democracy". Everything should be, as always. A thin layer of parasites on top of the food chain.

    Let's clarify the terms, firstly not the Bolsheviks, but the Communists. The term "Bolsheviks" is mainly applied to the figures of the first years of the formation of Soviet power. What can I say in general .... The monarchy, having failed to maintain power, has lost legitimacy in this way. The Communists, acting in the spirit of Comrade Mao, gained an empire and lost some parts of it (Finland), which is not good. They built a great state on the ruins, managed to defend it during the Second World War and mediocrely dropping it yourself remember when. Thus, having lost the right to power. "Democrats" (they are also reticulated communists) lost their territories more than the previous authorities and built some kind of krakozyabra, but could not hold power thereby ... The darkest one took krakozyabra and boldly acting where with a bayonet and butt, and where with a rat ( Khattab) restored and accepted as a gift from Ukraine Crimea unnecessary to her. What is good. The question is, what will happen next? And the debate about how it was under the communists .... So more and more arguing who with them, in fact, did not live))))
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 1 December 2017 19: 03 New
      +8
      Quote: Dimmih
      "Democrats" (they are also forged Communists

      Here I am - a former member of the CPSU, I left the party in 89th. Before the events, so to speak. He left the organization, which, in my opinion, contributed to the destructive processes in the USSR. But he remained a communist by conviction. "Re-Communists" were never communists. I consider your statement unfounded and insulting. Harness to continue to introduce other expressions for the expression of your illiterate fabrications. With contempt for the ignoramus soldier
      1. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 21: 14 New
        +1
        I completely agree with you. As soon as the party became the ruling one, those who climbed into it immediately wanted to make a career in power. If it were possible to do this without a party ticket, then they would not have climbed there. Without a doubt, the Communist gritted their teeth at the families of Gorbachev and Yeltsin, recalling their grievances for dispossession. And the grandchildren quickly realized how to live, but the anger in their souls never calmed down.
  38. The comment was deleted.
  39. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 13: 32 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    The conversation was that terms like “menopausal women” are more acceptable for forums like Censor, but not here.

    You, determine the topic of conversation, it turns out? belay Ah, I forgot what I mean. All spy on the topic "Who shot Polish officers in Katyn?" And I answer yours:
    For such articles, you need to start a separate section, and bring everything down like building pyramids by aliens and other Ren TV.
    Sorry, I was wrong, now the topic of menopause is here under my strictest ban, it is discussed only on the site, "The World of the Doctor", I got a little troubles.

    Dear, well, I’m already old to succumb to such tricks, such as who determines the topic for conversation, etc. And as for the term used by you ... Well, really, an adult, my son excuses his 14-year-old, I’m ashamed))) You understand that the conversation that when the arguments are over go to any terms from endocrinology and other related sciences. I urge to beat the enemy with an argument, i.e. do not use your oral cavity for the eruption of feces, for this there is an exhaust valve of the kind of "normally closed", if we use the terms instrumentation and A.
    1. Dimmih
      Dimmih 1 December 2017 13: 34 New
      +1
      Hmm, what a wee, we divorced srach in the comments ... This is partly good, as long as there is a srach forum alive! Have a nice weekend! Amen, we have the end of the working day!
    2. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 13: 48 New
      +4
      I urge to beat the enemy with an argument, i.e. do not use your oral cavity for the eruption of feces, for this there is an exhaust valve of the kind of "normally closed", if we use the terms instrumentation and A.

      Well, they would say so right away. Du.r.a.k., getting richer with a thought, so I suddenly thought that I was talking with someone. And then, I’m tearing over here, I’m writing, you understand, I almost got the A4 page, but everything turns out to be simple, we take “menopausal women” as a basis, we poke the opponent’s nose and woo a la, in all white, proudly leave. Thank you for science, I have not met before, I will know.
  40. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 13: 54 New
    +1
    Quote: avva2012
    we poke the opponent’s nose and woo a la, in all white, proudly leave.

    Time to poke your nose is the basis of the upbringing of growing mammals. Used successfully longer than the science of Pedagogy.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 14: 21 New
      +3
      Hamim on the quiet. Ladushki, citizen of the teacher, I say, in science. And you do not get sick, do not cough.
  41. Dimmih
    Dimmih 1 December 2017 14: 46 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    Hamim on the quiet. Ladushki, citizen of the teacher, I say, in science. And you do not get sick, do not cough.

    Do not be rude, but politely besiege. So that they know and love their native language, so that they differ from the censors of the damned for the better.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. avva2012
      avva2012 2 December 2017 04: 20 New
      +3
      Oh, for soup, comment deleted belay Was in Soviet times, such a short joke, they say, Hans was expelled from the Gestapo for sadism. You, so well know the "Censor", you from there, too, that ..... banned?
  42. The comment was deleted.
    1. Bobrovsky
      Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 19: 03 New
      +1
      But in vain they didn’t take the same part of the Poles for the evacuation. It is quite possible that a piece of paper is lying somewhere in the archive - a report from the head of the camp about the refusal of Polish officers to evacuate. It must be.
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 1 December 2017 19: 58 New
        +2
        If it is not cleaned during mn. Yakovleva.
        1. Bobrovsky
          Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 21: 10 New
          +1
          Could blink. Documents are a huge amount and where it can be hard to say. But in any case, the camp leader had to write some paper in his own excuse.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 2 December 2017 04: 24 New
            +2
            I think, dear, there, that is, in the archives, not only this piece of paper can be found, but much more. The problem is not that they were not found, but that they were found, but they are not shown. The same thing Beria. What secrets does it contain?
      2. long in stock.
        long in stock. 1 December 2017 21: 00 New
        +2
        How is it? they are prisoners of war and cannot decide where and why they need to be evacuated. according to their status, it is not allowed.
        1. Bobrovsky
          Bobrovsky 1 December 2017 21: 08 New
          +1
          They cannot decide. But the power of the camp, when the Germans were almost there, clearly understood that it was simply unrealistic to force such a large number to go to the rear. They do not want and there is nothing to be done about it. It must be thought that the camp guard was not so big.
  43. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 1 December 2017 23: 02 New
    +3
    About Katyn
    In 1943, the Germans made an autopsy of the graves, all the collected material evidence was taken to Germany, and subsequently destroyed.
    Question: “Why would the Germans destroy the evidence of their innocence?” And this is when the Allies, learning about the atrocities of the Germans, warned them that they would find and punish every war criminal.
    And although not random people were included in the German Commission, but exclusively anti-Bolshevik or, at worst, anti-Semitic convictions, but they, returning from Katyn, did not all claim that the Poles were killed by Stalin, some shied away from the answer, and some began to claim that the Poles were killed by the Germans.
    In 1946, the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg found the main German war criminals guilty of pursuing a policy of extermination of the Polish people and, in particular, of the execution of Polish officers in the Katyn Forest.
    However, at the end of 1951, during the Cold War, the imperialists, seeking to slander the USSR and rehabilitate Nazi criminals, raised the question of the Katyn crime, blaming the Soviet authorities for this. But then, it was clear to everyone, even the latest idiots and haters of socialism, that this was the work of the Nazis, not Stalin, and the fake did not pass.
    This question began to wake up again during the time of Gorbachev's perestroika, when socialism and the USSR were destroyed. Gorbachev, and then Yeltsin, allegedly handed over to the Polish side some documents confirming that the NKVD bodies had executed the execution. However, this is all falsification. In fact, there were no documents confirming the execution by the NKVD bodies.
    Moreover, documents were found in the archives that shortly before the attributed execution, the head of the NKVD Directorate of the USSR Suprunenko and the commissioner of this department Nekhoroshev proposed “to release those over 60”. According to this proposal, 300 sick and old officers were allowed to go home, regardless of where they live - in the Soviet part of the former Poland or not, 500 people living in Western Ukraine and Western Belarus were released. And only 400 people were transferred to the court of a special meeting of the NKVD, because refused to work (by the way, they all remained alive because they were convicted and taken to camps in other regions), the rest were used for work.
    When the front moved closer to the camps, the Poles were asked to evacuate to the rear. However, there were no cars, we had to go on foot, and the Poles refused. Only part of the officers of Jewish nationality escaped with the escort. The rest decided to surrender to the Germans, hoping that they would be sent to prison camps and would treat them in accordance with international standards. But the Germans did not need Poles, Germans ...
    So all statements and “confirmations” that the Polish NKVD shot the captured Polish officers remain on the conscience of those who state this and “confirm”.
    1. anderson
      anderson 2 December 2017 10: 18 New
      +1
      Everything is well written, but only the documents about which you speak are not put into scientific circulation, have not been published anywhere, and no one is engaged in Katyn’s science. I kept in touch with Strygin until his death. He was never able to get in and publish the documents you brought and documents on the placement of Poles in the Vyazemlag camps (at the construction of a mine). There are many indirect evidence. But there are no documents in circulation (there is no word from the word). Therefore, all discussions on Katyn come down to a discussion of conjecture and a repost of existing versions. Even the Truth about Katyn site, after Strygin’s death, simply died and there is nowhere to discuss the topic except for a couple of sites like "military review" and "smolbatla." But these sites are not thematic and in the discussion there is a lot of politicization and a full and a drop of history. In general, the topic has failed so far, we have nothing to offer competent opponents with a document, and patriotic illiterate posts exacerbate the situation. By the way, the topic had to be taken out of the “believe not believe” area for a long time to the field of scientific discussion, when not one version is denied but the strengths and weaknesses of both are considered ..
  44. Lev Bronsch
    Lev Bronsch 3 December 2017 11: 41 New
    +2
    M-yes, the srach was bred big, and in real cases, as always, zero ... ((
    There is a simple proposal - to organize an inter-parliamentary Russian-Polish commission that works on an ongoing basis, with the invitation of truly independent experts, lawyers - and just investigate this “case” without hysteria and politically addicted as a criminal offense! But to investigate publicly, publishing all the pro and contra arguments, so that there is no speculation on either side. And it’s important - using all, I emphasize, all the materials of both the Goebbels commission and the Bourdain committee. And it is especially important to conduct a real excavation of the "Katyn" graves !! with a public report on who is buried, like what was found in the graves !! Then we’ll see whose cones are in the forest, who will have to pay and repent laughing
    Alas, the Poles will not do this, because They know that the Germans shot, and they quarrel with Germany is very difficult. Ours and this also will not go, because they know that the Germans shot, and we’ll argue - who then will buy gas by flows? That's all bourgeois bastard logic am
    The only thing is that if it’s completely hidden, then such an investigation can be organized alone - the main condition is not our experts and complete publicity !! By the way, you will be surprised how many sane educated people are in the West who are quite neutral and friendly to us))
  45. Dimmih
    Dimmih 4 December 2017 05: 33 New
    +1
    Quote: avva2012
    Oh, for soup, comment deleted belay Was in Soviet times, such a short joke, they say, Hans was expelled from the Gestapo for sadism. You, so well know the "Censor", you from there, too, that ..... banned?

    Young man .... I’ll nevertheless remind you that our dispute with you began about your inability to express your thoughts with the help of your native speech and because of this use of a particular phrase. And you, for the umpteenth time, divert the conversation to anything instead of either admitting that you are wrong, or saying, I want to and I will! Well, the right word is kindergarten. And the Censor had time to come across pleasant interlocutors on their part, who could politely cheat on the case so that you don’t know how to answer the topic. Then the censor was banned from us and I, as a law-abiding citizen, rejected VPN services and stopped accessing it. And the Correspondent and Unian are small compared to the Censor forum. The conversation is that for victory in a historical dispute one must use historical concepts and arguments, but for this one needs to read literature, and it is desirable to reflect the opinion of different parties. For example, you need to read about WWII, for example, our marshals’s memoirs, you can read Clark from the British, Guderian from the Germans, Tippelskirch, etc. they described Hitler in great detail and bad roads prevented the war from being won. Even the cursed mice, guided by the NKVD, bit the wiring in tanks. Read, interesting! And then you will already look at forum battles from a slightly different angle.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 4 December 2017 07: 49 New
      +1
      Girl ... / grandfather / grandmother ..., go to your censor or to the bazaar to buy and chop off a rooster's head. What to do with the head thereof, you probably know without me, once so competent. I hope that being on this site, we will be in parallel universes. I would recommend that you return, all the same, to the site that suits you best. I understand that you will not use the recommendation, but my business is small, to give direction. All the best to you, dear. hi
  46. verner1967
    verner1967 4 December 2017 07: 06 New
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green
    First, for example, I did not hear that after the war in France the Communists were beaten, in England, too, it did not come to that.
    and for this they do not have to be shot on the street. In France, after WWII, the positions of the Communist Party were very strong and even the left-wing government was at the helm, so where are those communists now? Fascists instead of them did not come either.
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Secondly, there really was fascism in Greece, you forgot about the black colonels.

    Communists in Greece were crushed in 1947, and the colonels came to power 20 years later, and what was between? The rampant of democracy, and the state of emergency fought just for the purity of culture and the Greek language and were against the penetration of the influence of the West on Greek society, although, of course, with excesses. Actually, I do not justify them.
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 4 December 2017 20: 06 New
      +1
      Quote: verner1967
      Communists in Greece were crushed in 1947, and the colonels came to power 20 years later

      The difference of 20 years (1947 and 1967) does not mean anything. At the end of the 40s Communists in the civil war, aggravated by intervention from England and the United States, were defeated. In Greece, an authoritarian regime was established that was in no way inferior to the fascist one, many communists were thrown into jail and shot, but by the mid-60s the communist ideas in the country again received support from the people, and to prevent the communists from coming to power, black colonels and staged a coup.

      Moreover, they did not hide their anti-communism, officially proclaiming as their goal “saving the nation from the communist conspiracy”, which they saw in increasing the number of left-wing radical activists and, in general, those who held communist views in the country.

      So I don’t understand why you don’t like the thesis that “if the Communists are beaten, then the Nazis come to power.” This is no longer even a pattern, but an objective law of the development of society, confirmed in dozens of countries around the world.
      1. verner1967
        verner1967 4 December 2017 20: 17 New
        0
        Quote: Alexander Green
        An authoritarian regime established in Greece

        The authoritarian regime was in the USSR under Stalin, and now many dream of his return, so what? Is he also fascist?
        Quote: Alexander Green
        And they did not hide their anti-communism

        they considered communism any dissent, even the penetration of Western popculture into Greek society. Does this remind you of anything? How did Komsomol patrols cut patulas on the street and cut tight trousers to dudes, urging jazz musicians to open their saxophones, “Today he plays jazz, and tomorrow he will sell his homeland!”, So was the fascist regime in the USSR too?
        Quote: Alexander Green
        In Greece, an authoritarian regime was established that was in no way inferior to the fascist one; many communists were thrown into prison and shot

        in the USSR of the 30s, too, many communists were imprisoned in the Gulag and executed, not to mention representatives of other parties or factions of the CPSU (B.)
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 4 December 2017 21: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: verner1967
          How was the fascist regime in the USSR?

          You have a misunderstanding of the essence of fascism, you mixed everything together, focusing only on the external manifestations of form. Read to start:

          https://work-way.com/blog/2015/03/22/fashizm-ch-1
          -klassovaya-sushhnost-fashizma /
          https://work-way.com/blog/2015/03/23/fashizm-ch-2
          -fashizm-do-prixoda-k-vlasti-i-fashizm-u-vlasti /

          And it would not hurt to read the dialectic, then maybe you yourself answer your emotional questions, or understand that they are incorrect.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 4 December 2017 21: 28 New
            0
            Quote: Alexander Green
            And it would not hurt to read the dialectic

            your dialectic is terribly primitive, all that is not communism is fascism, and often your fascism is confused with Nazism, and what is fascism, in fact, you don’t know
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 4 December 2017 21: 43 New
              +2
              Quote: verner1967
              your dialectic is terribly primitive, all that is not communism is fascism, and often your fascism is confused with Nazism, and what is fascism, in fact, you don’t know

              Read the links and then you will definitely distinguish fascism from Nazism like nobody else, maybe later you will teach others, there will be at least some benefit from you.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 4 December 2017 21: 48 New
                0
                Quote: Alexander Green
                then you are exactly like no other

                that is, they themselves are non-violent, but you suggest others to learn laughing
                Quote: Alexander Green
                there will be at least some benefit from you.

                That's it, I look, you benefit from a whole wagon and a small cart lol
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 4 December 2017 22: 29 New
                  +2
                  Quote: verner1967
                  that is, they themselves are non-violent, but you suggest others to learn

                  Well, here you are and help me.
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 6 December 2017 07: 44 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Well, here you are and help me.

                    well, let's start, first understand that in the palette (do not confuse with a pint) of the political picture of the world there are not only white and black (brown and red, it may be more clear) colors
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 6 December 2017 20: 54 New
                      0
                      Quote: verner1967
                      understand that in palette (do not confuse with half a liter)

                      Thank you, I believe, experience is a great thing.
                      1. verner1967
                        verner1967 6 December 2017 21: 04 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        experience is a great thing.

                        I am very happy for you that you finally learned to distinguish between them.
  47. Dimmih
    Dimmih 4 December 2017 09: 07 New
    +1
    Quote: avva2012
    Girl ... / grandfather / grandmother ..., go to your censor or to the bazaar to buy and chop off a rooster's head. What to do with the head thereof, you probably know without me, once so competent. I hope that being on this site, we will be in parallel universes. I would recommend that you return, all the same, to the site that suits you best. I understand that you will not use the recommendation, but my business is small, to give direction. All the best to you, dear. hi

    Thank you, grandson, dear! Well, your business, really small, almost none, you can say, nanodelo. I’m your grandmother, I know his size for sure, without a reference.
  48. verner1967
    verner1967 4 December 2017 18: 52 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    A country that did not look at anyone.

    yes, yes, yes .. it was so, especially in the blockade of Zap. Berlin, an unsuccessful attempt to occupy Hokkaido, the Caribbean crisis ... any country does not take reckless steps in big politics, another thing is that it is wrong to draw conclusions.
  49. verner1967
    verner1967 5 December 2017 07: 05 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    The thesis that Hitler is at war with the enemies of Russia in the name of her liberation is present in personal appeals to the expat community
    So what? I myself know about this and I didn’t write to you, it’s just the same that there were plenty of renegades on both sides of the border, who, following the slogan of fighting Bolshevism, many emigrants fell under the banner of Hitler, but many of them, having understood these conditions ranks left. Hitler suspected this, and therefore did not believe in Russian military units in his army.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 5 December 2017 08: 23 New
      +2
      behaving on the slogan of the fight against Bolshevism many immigrants stood under the banner of Hitler

      Quote: verner1967 “Russian emigration, all anti-Soviet, but as soon as Hitler attacked Russia, they forgot about their political ambitions and sided with the USSR in this war. Not so much for advice, but against the enemy of Russia. What kind of Russophobes are they?”
      In vain you, Alexander Green, recommended that you study the dialectical logic, with you and with the formal logic of the problem.
  50. verner1967
    verner1967 6 December 2017 07: 41 New
    0
    Quote: avva2012
    In vain you, Alexander Green, recommended that you study the dialectical logic, with you and with the formal logic of the problem.

    Well, yes, I understand you, a break in the pattern, it happens, so many years of fooling underpinned child consciousness by communist propaganda. lol
    1. anderson
      anderson 16 December 2017 08: 20 New
      0
      Yes, there are more than enough dialectics in posts, but in essence a big bolt. This does not apply to YOU ​​personally, this applies to the entire discussion. At twenty posts, God forbid one on the topic of Katyn.